As an ork player, there is a reason I dont assault tau vehicles. Most times I am going to need 6s just to hit. Many times I am going to lose orks to shrapnel, so its one of those times where I actually bother shooting (well lootas always shoot anyway, but you know what I mean, like slugga boys shooting piranha and such) so the prospect of setting up 100+ boys to lose half of them to pre assault damage from purifiers dosent give me alot of incentive to play.

Now I realize if I went to a tourney and was paired up against them I wouldnt have much choice, and poor demon players (amazingly we have 5 people at my store playing demon armies) have it worse. But does not wanting to play them make me a poor sport. Heck I feel I have a better chance against the top tier chezy space wolf and guard lists then I would even a half nasty knight list.

I don't play tournaments and I've already made it well known locally that I will not play against anyone with a Ward Knights army (which was added to my standing moratorium against playing against Ward Angels.)

And it's not even that I think the army is that good (and that Stormravens have a drug coating on them that forces people that use them to pile as many points into the thing as possible and then go flat out so they get shot down and lose half their army.) It's the principle of people jumping on the latest M. Night "Herpaderpadoo" Ward pile of gak.

If you always run away from it, you'll never gain the experience to defeat it. It looks insanely OP, but which codex hasn't before release lately.

It will have it's moment in the sun, people will learn the weaknesses and exploit them, and most of the player base for them will move onto the next codex.

I'd agree with notu, try a few games against them, you might be surprised.
If you're not, well no big deal, youve wasted a couple of hours and dont ever have to play them again if thats your choice.
At the very least you'll gain some experience, have some fun, at the worst you can vindicate your views

You is Ork
go mental and have fun.
If you are going to be beaten go down fighting and laughing.
And take out as many of the buggers as you can.

Understand your reluctance, but the advice above is well said imho.

Just think, if by some miracle bestowed by the dice gods you get a result how much sweeter victory would be!

Except that I don't care about gaining experience. 99% of my hobby is painting and modeling. I play -maybe- one game every 2 months if someone asks nicely. And by ask nicely I mean "beg".

Then why ask the question?
If you don't want to play who is going to make you?

Why do you need the opinion of others to justify your attitude towards the hobby, which is perfectly acceptable imho

Worglock wrote:I don't play tournaments and I've already made it well known locally that I will not play against anyone with a Ward Knights army (which was added to my standing moratorium against playing against Ward Angels.)

And it's not even that I think the army is that good (and that Stormravens have a drug coating on them that forces people that use them to pile as many points into the thing as possible and then go flat out so they get shot down and lose half their army.) It's the principle of people jumping on the latest M. Night "Herpaderpadoo" Ward pile of gak.

How can you tell if someone "jumped ship" to Blood Angels? What about people that played them before last April, people that joined the hobby after April, or even people that always liked the Blood Angels but didn't want to play with a PDF codex?

Really?

Just man up and play. If you are that worried about your record/reputation/etc., maybe this isn't the game for you... How about a nice game of solitaire?


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Worglock wrote:Except that I don't care about gaining experience. 99% of my hobby is painting and modeling. I play -maybe- one game every 2 months if someone asks nicely. And by ask nicely I mean "beg".

And so what do you care what people play? IS it that important to a painter/modeller that someone plays Blood Angels? Grow up, it's a game.

Well, if you're not too much into tournaments then I wouldn't worry about it. Personally I have played Grey Knights since I started playing the game, I picked them up three years ago, and have a 5000 Pt army of the metal miniatures. Will I play with the new book? Yes. Will I buy the new miniatures? Yes. (Silly as that may sound).

It's been well stated in most of these posts that it's worth playing them. By no means do they auto-win against orks. If you don't want to play ultra competitive games, that's cool, neither do I, which is why all of my lists will be pure Knight with no mixed Inquisition. I'd say keep playing your game, don't walk away because someone put effort into an army you're afraid of. In the end, as was stated, it's just a game.

On the other hand, if when you go to set up the guy laughs at you and says, 'Well, this will be easy' then by all means, pack up and leave him where he stands.

Grey Knights vs orks? auto win for GK? no and o yeah no. BA? i like playing BA with my orks, SW (not yet played them but want to) GK is another army.

Yes they have some nasty stuff, orks have equally as nasty stuff if you use them right, there just another army in power armour, granted they mostly have power weapons but still. 10 GK vs 30 Shoota boys, my money is on the 30 Shoota boys, 60 shots vs 10.....then if your lucky a charge. orks win, gk win, orks lose, gk lose. such is life.

I dont understand the fear of the newest codex, happened with BA, SW, nids and DE its a game and is 90% random chance, you will win and you will lose.

90% is hardly random. That's a pretty certain percentage. It's not a given, but far better odds than "random".At any rate, I'm with the majority here. It's just another army and why do you give a rat's ass if you win against it or not? If you *know* you're gonna play it that night, build an army suited to fight it. I suspect biker Nobs with the right configuration would be more than a match for some Grey Knights.


King Ghidorah

How would you feel about a player who refuses to play against someone who is better than them at the game, or refuses to play against someone with a very competitive list if theirs is more for enjoyment than tourny play?

If you think that it's fine, then you've got no problem. If you think they are poor sports, then you have a problem. I'm not saying there's a right and wrong answer - either option is valid, it's your perception that counts.


And Worglock, really? You're actually Nerd Raging against people who are inspired to collect a new army? Of course it's your choice to choose who you want to play, but your post sounds like people who are inspired to collect the latest codex really pisses you off...

A new Codex has changed the meta and I need to change my list oh noes!

Who you choose to play is always up to you, and you can use whatever criteria you like in making that determination.

Don't worry about what a bunch of people on the internet say about it.

@Ghidora,

I can't read your posts, your sig is too distracting...

/whinethread

Keep painting, bro.

If ya don't play, you never get any better. If you're so afraid of losing a game of plastic toy soldiers that you'll flat out refuse a game against a new codex, find a new hobby. Players who lose frequently early on in their wargaming career, and learn from those mistakes, tend to climb the curve much more quickly and become better players for it.

I assume 'ducking' means a cuss? Could you please change the title?

Grey knights do seem pretty formiddable but space wolves seemed pretty impossibly good and people are now coping.

Smells like trollin'

Ducking playing GK make a poor sport?

Yeh man it does.

only time I would not play against grey knights is if my opponent deploys dreadknights, jakero or the daemonsword guy, 40k is all visual and setting a theme, all 3 of those ruin the feel and look of the game and the universe, so they can F off the table thanks

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Worglock wrote:I don't play tournaments and I've already made it well known locally that I will not play against anyone with a Ward Knights army (which was added to my standing moratorium against playing against Ward Angels.)

And it's not even that I think the army is that good (and that Stormravens have a drug coating on them that forces people that use them to pile as many points into the thing as possible and then go flat out so they get shot down and lose half their army.) It's the principle of people jumping on the latest M. Night "Herpaderpadoo" Ward pile of gak.

How can you tell if someone "jumped ship" to Blood Angels? What about people that played them before last April, people that joined the hobby after April, or even people that always liked the Blood Angels but didn't want to play with a PDF codex?

Agreed, if someone refused to play me because they were morally opposed to the authour of my Codex I'm pretty sure I'd laugh at them.

They're Marines, and they die like Marines. They really don't seem that scary. Big deal if they have force weapons all over the place, you only have a 6+ save anyway. Purifiers probably won't be in every army, and an army of nothing but them requires a special character. Get lots of shoota boys and chew them up.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Really?

Just man up and play. If you are that worried about your record/reputation/etc., maybe this isn't the game for you... How about a nice game of solitaire?

Some people are WAAC.

Question for OP...if a new Ork codex came out and was very powerful, would you refuse to use it since other players had no chance against it?..or would you jump on it and crush everyone you possibly could?

Mad4Minis wrote:Some people are WAAC.

I think this is the point you're trying to make, but WAAC is not 'plays a competitive list'. Ducking anything that you think will be 'hard' to play against so that you can stand a better chance of winning exhibits more of a WAAC mentalilty than people who have picked up Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Grey Knights as their new army.

If that is actually your point, then I'll just say I've elaborated on it.

Perkustin wrote:I assume 'ducking' means a cuss? Could you please change the title?

What? No. Ducking means avoiding.

As in the 5 D's: "Dodge, dip, duck, dive, and dodge"

Also, if you wouldn't have fun playing against a Grey Knight army, then don't play against them. Especially if you only play fun games. Your opponent will understand I'm sure.

Scream Waaaaagh in their face until they leave. A surrender is still a win for you!

don't be scarred just play and learn (and hopefully enjoy)... i lose some i win some, but its fun either way (besides orks enver win cause if we die it don't count, if we tie we come back with more boyz lookin fer a good fight!)

i guess i'm the opposite of you, i also never play tournaments , but i have yet to paint a single model, the painting doesn't intrest me as much as playing. if i can find the time i can see painting mine but given the choice of playing WoW, or playing a 40k match and getting my orks on the tabel i'll choose one of those over painting my lads

on the wolves, BA or GK ... they are all spae marines and they are just as suseptable to a power klaw or a choppa

played a game last weekend against wolves with a MANZ list and destroyed them.

BA i've taken down and 2 peopel i know are building GK armies and i'm looking forward to getting my boyz more space marine kills. sure they have alot of odd special rules but can they knock out a group of arngry charging 30 boyz, nob w/ pk/bp ? ... hard to beat at 220 points

so pep up and try if you fail just learn from it and do it agian till you eek out a victory

edits *spelling*

I will play grey knights, however I will not play against the neckbeard bandwagon jumpers, who put their awful looking vanilla SM's on the table and say they are GK's. If you wanna play GK buy those expensive models!

^ nothing wrong with proxying imo

heck i don't have enough models for trukks so i'm infamous for making functional and accuratly dimentional trukks out of kinects

i only have so many models so i once did a large footslogger list and just used empty bases to represent boys

sure it wont fly in tournaments btu against friends or at you friendly neighbodhood game shop who cares... its still going to be goos experience against em

How could you even begin to proxy GK with normal SM models on an enduring basis? The weapon loadouts are so dissimilar that you may as well use Ork Boyz.

But definitely agree. Buy the models. I can understand Generic Marines, given the similarity between all those models. GK simply don't fit that mold, though.

sourclams wrote:How could you even begin to proxy GK with normal SM models on an enduring basis? The weapon loadouts are so dissimilar that you may as well use Ork Boyz.

But definitely agree. Buy the models. I can understand Generic Marines, given the similarity between all those models. GK simply don't fit that mold, though.

Clearly they should be represented by Khorne Berzerkers instead

Orock wrote:As an ork player, there is a reason I dont assault tau vehicles. Most times I am going to need 6s just to hit. Many times I am going to lose orks to shrapnel, so its one of those times where I actually bother shooting (well lootas always shoot anyway, but you know what I mean, like slugga boys shooting piranha and such) so the prospect of setting up 100+ boys to lose half of them to pre assault damage from purifiers dosent give me alot of incentive to play.

In regards to my tyranids, after watching several TMC's get instant killed by force weapons, if it was a good friend, I have no problem playing them, as I'm going to get a good game. Some random stranger with a grey knight army if I go to a store? I might decide to pass.

I dont see it as a bad sport, there are people one doenst care for, armies one doesnt care for.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Clearly they should be represented by Khorne Berzerkers instead

No wai. Zombies with sacks and zombies bags (read THIS epic thread of terribad 'counts as' for my reference).



King Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Clearly they should be represented by Khorne Berzerkers instead

No wai. Zombies with sacks and zombies bags (read THIS epic thread of terribad 'counts as' for my reference).



King Ghidorah

That thread wsa amazing

Worglock wrote: It's the principle of people jumping on the latest M. Night "Herpaderpadoo" Ward pile of gak.

So how long does a codex need to be out before you'll consent to play against it?


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Saldiven wrote:Who you choose to play is always up to you, and you can use whatever criteria you like in making that determination.

Don't worry about what a bunch of people on the internet say about it.

He wouldn't have to worry about it except that he came and asked....

I am talking about certain people at my FLGS that jump on ABSOLUTELY EVERY NEW DEX, but yet never purchase a single model from that range, I'm talking about awful looking marines being proxied as angels, wolves, and now GK.

Orock wrote:As an ork player, there is a reason I dont assault tau vehicles. Most times I am going to need 6s just to hit. Many times I am going to lose orks to shrapnel, so its one of those times where I actually bother shooting (well lootas always shoot anyway, but you know what I mean, like slugga boys shooting piranha and such) so the prospect of setting up 100+ boys to lose half of them to pre assault damage from purifiers dosent give me alot of incentive to play.

Now I realize if I went to a tourney and was paired up against them I wouldnt have much choice, and poor demon players (amazingly we have 5 people at my store playing demon armies) have it worse. But does not wanting to play them make me a poor sport. Heck I feel I have a better chance against the top tier chezy space wolf and guard lists then I would even a half nasty knight list.

Thats why you carpet bomb them with Grots, and then send in the heavy hitters when they are stuck in. Twopronged attack, with cover fire from your looted Balisk/ Russ/ Destroyer.

Send in the tankbusta's' Kommando's, and hit that thing from 2 sides with rokket launchas, while you jump over that mess with your stormboyz., hitting that armor from behind.

You've already lost before you try, though. Like the old sayin goes, you can't win if you don' play...

I don't think that you just up and saying "Hey, that cheese is goin down under my nobnailed boot!" isn't out of the question, then after you go get yourself a looted vehicle thats orkified after the battle, then come back to play him again, you can tell him to try the next flash in the pan army, it might even be worth your time to get some more of his new stuff.

See if I think an army is cheesy, i'll go out of my way to not start that army - i'll fight it every day of the week to try and prevent the spread of cheese - but you'd have to prise the cash to invest in GK from my cold dead hands before I willingly started an army.

(Except for conversions! That's allowed for my Templars!)

I am also orks and am going to refuse to play gk, if anyone can honestly say they are just another army just read the codex its beyond a joke!

At OP, if they are proxying then insist on WYSIWYG.

As a gamer you are allowed to do that. In fact Codexes and the BGB do state a model should be WYSIWYG rather than continually Proxied

Because at the end of the day it is a game. If they spent time converting a GK force (Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons or something similar) Then that might float. But using regular marines (who have bolters and the like) couldn't be GKs. They would look wrong.

That is

The Night Stalker wrote:I will play grey knights, however I will not play against the neckbeard bandwagon jumpers, who put their awful looking vanilla SM's on the table and say they are GK's. If you wanna play GK buy those expensive models!

I agree, unless it's one of my better friends wanting to experiment for the benefit of our gaming circle.

I decided that the Asurmen-washed Boltgun Metal is drab, but I love the models and compact, elite armies. I also realised that I could save a tidy fortune by painting my future Knights army in the blue of my Alpha Legion, so to share their Land Raiders, Rhinos, Razorback and even a Stormraven which is waiting to be corrupted for the Legion.

People are only missing out refusing to play anything and take the fun out of the hobby, simply because of their ego and taking things too seriously. A loss is only in name if you learn.

The one thing that offsets the GK's power is that the models are fething expensive, 5 marines cost 33$ paired with the standard termie prices and vehilcle prices players are in for one hell of a spending spree.

how odd.

I lose WAY more games than I win, and I still play becuase I enjoy it! I'll refuse a game against a player who is a total jerk, but I'll never refuse to play just becuase of an army.

Shoot, my friend looks forward to playing against some grey knights just becuase his orks will outnumber them about 100000 to 1....

I totally understand all sides of the debate. It's pretty clear that there's a ton of WAAC gamers picking up GK because GW has finally given GK a good codex, and it's also clear that these players are more interested in "winning games of 40k" than in actually "playing a grey knight army." And that's fine.

One can debate whether the motives an opponent has in playing an army should inform your own choice to play against them and probably come up with an inconclusive answer.

I have been wanting to play GK for many years, and have collected RT termies and inquisitors and such since long before talk of a GK codex, but since they haven't had a codex that really appealed to me, and now they do, I don't want to play that codex (even though I have enough GK models to easily field an army) simply because so many people are jumping on the bandwagon. It's also hard to rationalize playing someone who 'switches' to GK by subbing every single model in from their AoBR set and continuing to do so. Once or twice, for the purposes of the local gaming group is fine, or to see how you like the force, but it's kind of hokey and a little insulting to be subjected to Lego GKs every weekend.

With that said, people will play the armies they like irrespective of the power of the collective meta in it's current incarnation: Codex: Grey Knights. I'm going to continue to play my CSM, and if that means that maybe I don't put a Greater Demon in my list, or elect to field Lucius and Kharn rather than two warptime princes in order to hedge my bets against the GK's inclination to kill the hell out of demons, so be it. This is why the good lord gave us terminators and obliterators and lascannons.

On the other hand, as has been stated above, there's a lot of good reasons to play against GK armies even if you are worried your opponent with leave your orks or whatever a green smear on the battlefield. To summarize:

- gain experience against the army, and faster learn its weaknesses (hint: shooty armies will be successful against GKs)
- the GK codex is part of the game now, and like it or not, it's not going anywhere. you're going to have to play them sooner or later. change your ML long fangs or whatever to lascannons, or buy more lootas and defcoptas and blast their psyfleman dreads early and hard, and be done with it.
- if you don't play, you'll never win (if that's your concern) and if you are convinced you'll lose from the get-go, you've made the outcome a foregone conclusion. So, you can play them and possibly win, or not play them and always lose.

Refuse to play the playa (because they are a douche or smell bad) not the army.

Hell, I'll be playing with GK (I've been playing with them - and losing against BA, daemons and SW, so it's time for some payback) at my next club meet after I get my codex. If any of the club's BA or SW players whine at me for running an overpowered army I'll just laugh at them in an ironic way.

I've already got 3000pts of GK (add another 2k of DH) so don't even need to add any of the newer units (hell, most of that 3k GK was bought second hand at 40% retail) after the last round of GK players left in droves after the newest shiny came out afterwards.

Chrome dog is right. If the playa is a one of -them- people that is not going to make the game enjoyable, do not play them.

To answer your question. Yes it does.

Don't judge people based on their army choice. You don't know how long the "Cheesey powergamer" struggled through the bad time with an old codex. Case in point; The GK deserve a powerful new dex.

Each codex goes through the same pattern.

Stage one: Wild rumors; "OMG it's so broken that Grey Knights shoot lascannons out their butts!"
Stage two: The new codex is the CHEESE! I hate bandwagoning power gamers!"
Stage three: Normal play
Stage four: "The fluff is nice, but that army is definitely a second tier list."
Stage five: "I can't believe you still play with that codex. You must like losing."
Stage six: "Our codex is so old and busted. We need lascannon butts!"

agnosto wrote:@Ghidora,

I can't read your posts, your sig is too distracting...

agreed lmfao

I'm building a Grey Knight army right now...and it's a tournament list built to win.

If another Grey Knight asks me to play against their Grey Knights....I won't do it...they're too cheesy. F them. WAAC mo-fos.

Atleast they werent designed with the sole purpose of hunting your army down.

As a daemon player, i fething hate them, but i wont refuse to play them.
Its another army with more learning curves.

If you dont care about winning though, why avoid an army?
A game is a game, you either play for fun or to win, and in either case, theres nothing gained from avoiding armies.

Grey Knights will only be the badass flavor of the week until the next codex or at least the next marine codex comes out...then the herds will be culled just a little bit and people will start to back away from them.

Just weather the storm and do the best you can against them with the army you normally run. My main army right now is DE airforce...Grey Knight armies can totally wreck my gak bad. Big friggin' deal.

I'll just learn how best to fight them. It cannot be any harder than throwing my army up against a guard parking lot. Don't think of it as unfair...be challenged, get better, learn 40k.

Quitting b4 you even start? Don't be a Kitty...you know *kitty*cat...? Cowboy up son! Losing make you a better player. Winning gets you....well...nothing.

I find your lack of balls disturbing.

shane, lesson learned mate.
Dont take open topped ravs, take closed topped voids instead

If you're ducking out on a game because someone is playing GK, you're a bad sport, but fortunately for your would-be opponent, you're also unskilled enough that all he really missed out on was a seal-beating, not like an actual good game was on the line or anything.

And if you lost at football, would you take your ball home too?

Man up and play the army that someone has invested time and money in creating, learning and playing.

There are many armies I do not want to play against and many armies that do not want to play against me. List builds counter other list builds, the GK will be in tournaments but Im not sure how many people are going to actually place until they get the rules down. Im expecting a lot of arguements with some rules until the faq is released. Take all comers lists are the best way to go, so if the Purifiers got you down go with 30 FNP cy boyz(Grotsnik)
in a battlewagon and get a kff to get cover saves while advancing. Purifiers are intimidating but I dont think many people will be running an all purifier army competitively as Crowe gives you furious charge with EVERYONE and no one for his army. Pepper him with lootas and shootas and im not seeing much his elitest army can do as long as you keep your distance and hit him when the times right.

The only time I would refuse to play against them would be if the player was one of the type of people who constantly bandwagon jumps. If I know and see that the same grey tactical marines have been Vanilla Marines then Wolves, then Angels, and are now becoming Grey Knights, THEN I would refuse to play. If I play the guy and he turns out to be an annoying d-bag, then I'll refuse to play them no matter what army they take.

However, in the end it's up to you. I would call it poor sportsmanship to refuse to play an opponent just because they're Grey Knights, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

godswildcard wrote:how odd.

I lose WAY more games than I win, and I still play becuase I enjoy it! I'll refuse a game against a player who is a total jerk, but I'll never refuse to play just becuase of an army.

Shoot, my friend looks forward to playing against some grey knights just becuase his orks will outnumber them about 100000 to 1....

+1 on this.

There are a dozen other factors which would determine whether I would play someone or not, which are more important than my perceived chance of winning a game.

I'm trying to understand the mindset of the OP but I really can't. It's a bloody game, have you got some kind of rule where if you lose a trapdoor opens beneath your feet and you fall down a tube and into a pit of crocodiles?

Pacific wrote:I'm trying to understand the mindset of the OP but I really can't. It's a bloody game, have you got some kind of rule where if you lose a trapdoor opens beneath your feet and you fall down a tube and into a pit of crocodiles?

It's the WAAC mindset, pure and simple. You don't have to actually be any good at the game to be a WAAC player.

According to Kohn (_No Contest_, 1986) the drive to win games at all costs is due to modern Western cultural mores which equate success at life, and also one's own self-image and self-esteem, with success at competitions, including everything from games to sports to grades to promotions. So, Kohn would argue that a person who actually feels frightened of losing, and unhappy when they do lose, rather than just enjoying the game for its own sake, has poor self-esteem. He would go a little beyond that and claim that the desire to play games at all is basically unhealthy and predicated on low self-esteem, but he is some kind of a commie.

I find this funny.

If *I* was playing Grey Knights, I'd refuse to play YOU, because it would be too easy, and I would have no fun.

My enjoyment is largely predicated on challenge, thanks.

Crimson Devil wrote:To answer your question. Yes it does.

Don't judge people based on their army choice. You don't know how long the "Cheesey powergamer" struggled through the bad time with an old codex. Case in point; The GK deserve a powerful new dex.

Each codex goes through the same pattern.

Stage one: Wild rumors; "OMG it's so broken that Grey Knights shoot lascannons out their butts!"
Stage two: The new codex is the CHEESE! I hate bandwagoning power gamers!"
Stage three: Normal play
Stage four: "The fluff is nice, but that army is definitely a second tier list."
Stage five: "I can't believe you still play with that codex. You must like losing."
Stage six: "Our codex is so old and busted. We need lascannon butts!"

Based on your logic no-one in their right mind will ever get to stage 4 with the abortion that is the GK fluff.

Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

Does ducking a certain codex make you a bad sport? Yeah, kind of.

Of course this comes from a guy who doesn't want to play an opponent who tailors his list to fight yours right before the game (which I consider to be extremely poor sportsmanship), so take it as you will.

Etna's Vassal wrote:Does ducking a certain codex make you a bad sport? Yeah, kind of.

Of course this comes from a guy who doesn't want to play an opponent who tailors his list to fight yours right before the game (which I consider to be extremely poor sportsmanship), so take it as you will.

Your example is not merely poor sportsmanship, but cheating. That person is a gak, and should be punched in the balls if they will not modify their behaviour. Or ostracised, whatever gives you more satisfaction.

Elessar wrote:Your example is not merely poor sportsmanship, but cheating.

Cheating? Seriously? A little extreme there...



King Ghidorah

Agree with Stalker.

At OP, yes, I do feel like it is bad sportsmanship.

If someone takes the time and resources to obtain a 40k army I have no issue playing them regardless of what army.

I hate playing Tau, it just frustrates me, but I do. I also mostly and in it for the collecting, modeling/painting and when I play I don't expect to win so I have no problem playing whatever army.

However, it's your time and if you don't want to play a certain army, short of a tournament, no...you don't have to. It's your choice.

My friend that plays Tau will only play my Tyranids, as he refuses to fight space marines at all. I find that attitude ridiculous, and that's is what I'm against. I have 3 armies, so fine, I'll use that one, but he only has Tau, and I hate Tau, so what if I had the same attitude?

Hope any of this makes sense for you?

Elessar wrote:Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

Stella Cadente wrote:

Elessar wrote:Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

This is why I love GW gamers What defines fluff? The source material. If someone writes the source material, it is impossible for it not to be fluffy. There's new fluff and people have such a hard time swallowing it (who doesn't love having their chaos army docked fluff points at a tournament even though the book was designed to mix and match and legion play is completely impractical...).

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

Elessar wrote:Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

This is why I love GW gamers What defines fluff? The source material. If someone writes the source material, it is impossible for it not to be fluffy. There's new fluff and people have such a hard time swallowing it

there is a massive difference between a change in fluff and the words of a complete moronic muppet who has no idea what he is doing at the best of times, yet is still allowed the free will to be in charge of new books rewriting every single last bit of fluff and turning something like the grey knights into chaos worshipping, transformer humping, captain scarlet impersonating retards of the highest caliber.

I've played a few games as grey knights, except for a few models (Im looking at you culexus assassin) the're no where near as cheese as everyone acts like they are. The fluff is a different story but I digress, they die like every other marine and aslong as you act accordingly you'll be able to win.

p.s. with all the death anti-daemon stuff you'd think the're fighting daemons in fantasy.

Stella Cadente wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

Elessar wrote:Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

This is why I love GW gamers What defines fluff? The source material. If someone writes the source material, it is impossible for it not to be fluffy. There's new fluff and people have such a hard time swallowing it

there is a massive difference between a change in fluff and the words of a complete moronic muppet who has no idea what he is doing at the best of times, yet is still allowed the free will to be in charge of new books rewriting every single last bit of fluff and turning something like the grey knights into chaos worshipping, transformer humping, captain scarlet impersonating retards of the highest caliber.

Yup. Yet I have this sneaking suspicion you would still be one of the guys who says "those two chaos gods wouldn't work together! $(@#&$(@*$!!!" The back story can be rewritten, and that's one of the weaknesses of relying on a company to produce you're fun.

I'm not sure where all the Chaos Worshipping came from when reading the book. I'll admit, Draigo's story is.. well... I'm sure there aren't many who don't scratch their heads at that... but other things aren't so bad. I like the idea of the Purifiers. I wish that they did more to make the Dreadknight seem as if it had been there before, but it doesn't have very good background. 'It's alien? It's Imperial? It's... What?' Yeah, no one knows, and that's good enough I supposed.

Really some harsh criticism passed on the opening poster. I'm not 100% sure that it's bad sportsmanship. Heck, when Blood Angels came out, that's the only army out there that I had to play against, and I just.. stopped playing for a bit until some people strated not wanting to play them anymore. Why? Because I got bored of playing against Blood Angels. If the reason you stop playing Grey Knights is because you get tired of seeing the same army over and over again, I don't think that's bad sportsmanship to just head home.

The only difference is, if you agree to play someone, and then decide not to only AFTER they say they're playing Grey Knights, no good. Go to the store, if you don't see someone you want to play.. you can always head back home and paint.

Hell with ducking GK. I'm gonna duck playing that Eversor Assassin! That frikkin thing is the deadliest it has EVER been. Bye-bye Farseers...



King Ghidorah

Stella Cadente wrote:
I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

Awful models? Really? Draigo's face is kinda funky but you can just give him a helmet and he looks fine. Crowe is a solid figure. The Jokearo is up to taste, but well sculpted. The dreadknight is downright goofy, but I'm not wretching just looking at it or anything.

Ghidorah wrote:Hell with ducking GK. I'm gonna duck playing that Eversor Assassin! That frikkin thing is the deadliest it has EVER been. Bye-bye Farseers...



King Ghidorah

Must be a typo, since the Eversor is the WORST Assassin now.

So long as your playing GK and not powergaming the dakka out of it, no one should have a problem.

ChrisWWII wrote:The only time I would refuse to play against them would be if the player was one of the type of people who constantly bandwagon jumps. If I know and see that the same grey tactical marines have been Vanilla Marines then Wolves, then Angels, and are now becoming Grey Knights, THEN I would refuse to play. If I play the guy and he turns out to be an annoying d-bag, then I'll refuse to play them no matter what army they take.

However, in the end it's up to you. I would call it poor sportsmanship to refuse to play an opponent just because they're Grey Knights, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

QFT

Thank you for taking the thoughts directly from my brain.

Never duck out of a battle. Especially Orks; you should be the first to jump at the chance to fight them.

It's the Orky thing to do.

Brother SRM wrote:Awful models? Really? Draigo's face is kinda funky but you can just give him a helmet and he looks fine.

the face is one yes, the pose is another awful point, static, fat and weird, especially the sword arm, and its too busy as always for a GW model, which looks stupid.

Brother SRM wrote:Crowe is a solid figure.

if by solid you mean as static as possible with a stupid friggin daemon sword, then yes he is "solid"

Old curmudgeon says: Grey knight used to be just a simple unit entry. Why are they deserving of their own codex? There is no Codex: Devastators, no Codex: Genestealers. Can I play against them with my codex: Chaos Lord? Well, I'd rather play against them with my Codex: Monolith army. I personal could care less about their rules or models, I wouldn't play them on fluff principle: there are no Daemons in my army.

Exception. I would play an apocalypse game of Imperial forces (Guard and/or Space Marines) with some (small amount) Grey Knights allies if I was taking a Chaos (chaos space marines and Daemons) army, as this is more in line with the fluff. (And also it would be awesome!)

Shoot them dead. Plain and simple.

Let's see. Name calling and even threats of violence. Over the overpowered Speds Mahreens of the month.

Objective *and* entertaining.

Though I admit that I'm surprised that my heritage wasn't called into question.

sourclams wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:Some people are WAAC.

I think this is the point you're trying to make, but WAAC is not 'plays a competitive list'. Ducking anything that you think will be 'hard' to play against so that you can stand a better chance of winning exhibits more of a WAAC mentalilty than people who have picked up Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Grey Knights as their new army.

If that is actually your point, then I'll just say I've elaborated on it.

sourclams wrote:

Pacific wrote:I'm trying to understand the mindset of the OP but I really can't. It's a bloody game, have you got some kind of rule where if you lose a trapdoor opens beneath your feet and you fall down a tube and into a pit of crocodiles?

It's the WAAC mindset, pure and simple. You don't have to actually be any good at the game to be a WAAC player.

I love you sourclams.

Your stance, boiled down, seems to be 40k is a game where each codex has a power value, and a higher value will automatically defeat a lower value. I posit to you, sir, that you are wrong in several ways. Putting aside the intricacies of the meta game, and the tuning of the lists, and all that other stuff - the fact is, that some players just suck no matter what army they run. I guarantee you that if i played Dashof pepper with GK he could beat me with literally every other codex out; because he is a great player and I am a very poor one.

So, the the debatable fact over which codex is or is not more overpowered is largely irrelevant. People still will build poor lists, make poor choices, and have bad luck.

I still don't see the problem. I looked at the codex, the purifiers ability only hit on a 4+ and still normal armor saves apply. Those are some of the best odds an Ork can get.

Killem with Nobz or MANZ. At that the Purifiers are an elite choice so there are only going to be three groups of em and a unit is like 4 and a unit leader.

Didn't see anything too scary.

They will still krump tha same.

Unless I take crowe... then it's troop choice

Ouze wrote:Your stance, boiled down, seems to be 40k is a game where each codex has a power value, and a higher value will automatically defeat a lower value. I posit to you, sir, that you are wrong in several ways. Putting aside the intricacies of the meta game, and the tuning of the lists, and all that other stuff - the fact is, that some players just suck no matter what army they run. I guarantee you that if i played Dashof pepper with GK he could beat me with literally every other codex out; because he is a great player and I am a very poor one.

So, the the debatable fact over which codex is or is not more overpowered is largely irrelevant. People still will build poor lists, make poor choices, and have bad luck.

Good post, though I would contest the existence of the 'metagame'.

I'm torn either way as I can see both sides of this coin. Is intentionally not playing against someone who uses a certain army bad sportsmanship? I'd say yes. By the same token if you are going to have no fun because said army is to OOT and OP, why waste your time?

Granted we don't know how GK are gonna play yet. Whats scarier is if GK do end up being way OP and it starts driving off players from the hobby or starts causing people not to play against them.

Rymafyr wrote:Whats scarier is if GK do end up being way OP and it starts driving off players from the hobby...

That's not scary at all. It will never happen. There have been other armies that have had a new Codex come out and they were WAY op. People will figure the GK out, just like the Iron Warriors scare of 40kv.3.5, just like every other army/codex before and since. Then, a new codex will come out and everyone will flock to that and this argument will pop up again.



King Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Whats scarier is if GK do end up being way OP and it starts driving off players from the hobby...

That's not scary at all. It will never happen. There have been other armies that have had a new Codex come out and they were WAY op. People will figure the GK out, just like the Iron Warriors scare of 40kv.3.5, just like every other army/codex before and since. Then, a new codex will come out and everyone will flock to that and this argument will pop up again.



King Ghidorah

Speculative 'if' there Ghidorah. And honestly, it will take only one time for it to happen to really hurt the hobby. At best such an army would be removed from tournament play at worse you would have loads of people refusing to play against an OP army even in pick-up games. You say it would never happen but nobody plays to lose every single game against one army. Even the 'illusion' of balance is far better than actually having one army that is an auto win.

I'm not saying GK are this army, but I am presenting a point based on the continuing OTT nature of Ward Marines. Here's to the hope he writes the next CSM codex. It will be awesome to read the fluff about how a single lowly chaos convert slices and dices his way into the golden throne and carves all four of the chaos gods' names into the emperor's dried out husk of a heart.

I will not disagree with most of your statements regarding OP codices. Not at all. However, my reply was less speculative than your offering about people stopping the support of 40k because of OP codices. Again I say, that will never happen. In fact, the mere thought of it is, to me, wilely fantastic and ulta-dramatic. Maybe an isolated customer or so, but nothing en masse and certainly not anything that would affect GW's bottom line.

Never-ending unreasonable price hike will likely do that well before OP codices ever will.



King Ghidorah

Rymafyr wrote:

Ghidorah wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Whats scarier is if GK do end up being way OP and it starts driving off players from the hobby...

That's not scary at all. It will never happen. There have been other armies that have had a new Codex come out and they were WAY op. People will figure the GK out, just like the Iron Warriors scare of 40kv.3.5, just like every other army/codex before and since. Then, a new codex will come out and everyone will flock to that and this argument will pop up again.



King Ghidorah

Speculative 'if' there Ghidorah. And honestly, it will take only one time for it to happen to really hurt the hobby. At best such an army would be removed from tournament play at worse you would have loads of people refusing to play against an OP army even in pick-up games. You say it would never happen but nobody plays to lose every single game against one army. Even the 'illusion' of balance is far better than actually having one army that is an auto win.

I'm not saying GK are this army, but I am presenting a point based on the continuing OTT nature of Ward Marines. Here's to the hope he writes the next CSM codex. It will be awesome to read the fluff about how a single lowly chaos convert slices and dices his way into the golden throne and carves all four of the chaos gods' names into the emperor's dried out husk of a heart.

1) Fluff is irrelevant to game balance ;
2) That story would be even more hilarious than the baying of the sheeple and the MONTHS of nerd-rage ;
3) Ward's books are balanced against each other.

You *seem* to have fallen for the trap of thinking multiple books, in fact, half of the books released this Edition (or maybe more) are Overpowered. This CANNOT in fact be true. Where that happens, they are in fact the baseline, and other things can only be called underpowered, not the reverse.

If you mean only the fluff is OTT, then so what? It always has been.

You're right that IF that happened it would be very bad for the hobby - but it DID happen throughout 2e and 3e. Hobby's still here, and, if anything, better.

Ultimately you are right, pricing will be their downfall. It most certainly is the reason I buy very little from them anymore. Admittedly my statement is over speculative but to be truthful most of us in this hobby are 'ultra-dramatic' and have a huge investment of ourselves in our toy soldiers.

The idea is sadly already germinating as this isn't the first thread I've seen where 'not playing army X' was being considered. I've thought about it myself but for me, since I get so few chances to have a match, I refuse no offer to play.

I don't understand why someone would duck playing GK for fear of them being overpowered or whatever. They die like Marines just the same, and their killing power is greatly overstated. Even if you're playing as a daemons player, you've got enough anti-Marine stuff that will eat them alive, like Bloodletters and flamers.

I welcome a GK opponent so I can pop his rhinos with my autocannons then pulp the expensive Marines inside with my battle cannons. Nothing in that codex is especially terrifying unless you're running a similarly elite army; the only armies I can see having real trouble against GK are similar power armored elite armies. The prevalence of power/force weapons is bothersome.

Elessar wrote:1) Fluff is irrelevant to game balance ;
2) That story would be even more hilarious than the baying of the sheeple and the MONTHS of nerd-rage ;
3) Ward's books are balanced against each other.

You *seem* to have fallen for the trap of thinking multiple books, in fact, half of the books released this Edition (or maybe more) are Overpowered. This CANNOT in fact be true. Where that happens, they are in fact the baseline, and other things can only be called underpowered, not the reverse.

If you mean only the fluff is OTT, then so what? It always has been.

You're right that IF that happened it would be very bad for the hobby - but it DID happen throughout 2e and 3e. Hobby's still here, and, if anything, better.

1) I never said Fluff was relevant
2) The short thought of a story line I proposed was intentionally meant to be as OTT as possible and intentionally sarcastic since it's a mirror of fluff from the GK codex.
3) That's a presupposition since the GK codex was just released and if true, then people should only play Ward Marines against other Ward marines as Tyranid, IG and DE are obviously not Ward books.

The rest is just a matter of perspective. Granted if the new baseline is Ward books then everything else is underpowered. However, the divide still remains.

Ultimately the point being made is about 'fear' as BrotherSRM pointed out. The OP is asking if it would be bad sportsmanship to refuse playing against GK. Obviously the thing driving such a thought comes down to fear. Fear of losing a game, being humiliated, having your army decimated etc. And even if you don't think that fear is a rational thing, since this is only a game of toy soldiers, every single person has it.

Rymafyr wrote:... but to be truthful most of us in this hobby are 'ultra-dramatic' and have a huge investment of ourselves in our toy soldiers.

100% QFT. Truer words are rarely spoken here.


King Ghidorah

When I read the new GK codex---I don't think poor Orks.

I think poor Nids.

Poison Gaunts still run over GKs like everything else. *Shrug*

Difficult, but not auto-lose, fo' sho'.

I'd be more worried about Inquisition lists than any pure GK armies.

Considering most lists will probably have Purifiers---the thought of two purifier squads hitting a Gaunt unit---would make the Tyranid side of me wince.

Elessar wrote:Poison Gaunts still run over GKs like everything else. *Shrug*

Difficult, but not auto-lose, fo' sho'.

I think it is rude to tell a player " I won't play against you because you play (insert list)". I had some guy tell me that and it was me and another friend there we just ignored him and ge sat alone.

This is a social hobby and it's part painting modeling and part playing games if it be friendly fluff or competitive. If you want to be a jerk and say you play a Matt ward book then stop playing 5th edition cause he had a hand in that as well.

Getting back to your orginal question, yes ducking a GK army makes you a bad sport. It makes it sound like all you care about is winning and since you don't feel you can do that then you are going to stay home a pout. Yeah its probably for the best anyways since you most likely would give your opponent a miserable game just to prove whatever point you are trying to make. I understand that playing cheesy overtooled tourney lists somewhat sucks and its a reason I too tend to avoid most tourneys as well, but if I show up for open gaming I play whatever and whoever wants a game. You sound like the local a-hole in every store who wont play kids or customizes his list depending on his opponent. Whatever, sit in your corner and brood, you wont be missed.

I wouldn't let anyone proxy anything that does not look alot like it. If he can have blood angels as gray knights i can have orks without any arms as gray knights too.

That would be entirely fair, if he's proxying. If his army is Counts As, and WYSIWYG despite colour scheme, then no.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Worglock wrote:I don't play tournaments and I've already made it well known locally that I will not play against anyone with a Ward Knights army (which was added to my standing moratorium against playing against Ward Angels.)

And it's not even that I think the army is that good (and that Stormravens have a drug coating on them that forces people that use them to pile as many points into the thing as possible and then go flat out so they get shot down and lose half their army.) It's the principle of people jumping on the latest M. Night "Herpaderpadoo" Ward pile of gak.

How can you tell if someone "jumped ship" to Blood Angels? What about people that played them before last April, people that joined the hobby after April, or even people that always liked the Blood Angels but didn't want to play with a PDF codex?

Agreed, if someone refused to play me because they were morally opposed to the authour of my Codex I'm pretty sure I'd laugh at them.

The meaningless vitriol in that post was hilarious.

I agree with the reply, except that I don't play BA or GK so I'd be laughing at the person who just refused to play some other guy. Either way, BA aren't even scary enough to justify Worglock's original bout of prejudice. It's almost as though he suffers from some ingrained hatred of Mat Ward... and I don't see how that can be inherited.
Is it possible that he formed this opinion by taking a similarly baseless forum post as absolute and irrefutable fact?

AgeOfEgos wrote:Considering most lists will probably have Purifiers---the thought of two purifier squads hitting a Gaunt unit---would make the Tyranid side of me wince.

Elessar wrote:Poison Gaunts still run over GKs like everything else. *Shrug*

Difficult, but not auto-lose, fo' sho'.

You should try getting your two 20+ model Ork units multicharged by two remaining Purifiers... I don't think I've ever felt so ashamed as a player!

Two Purifiers? They shouldn't have been able to multi-charge. Diagram plox?

MajorSoB wrote:Getting back to your orginal question, yes ducking a GK army makes you a bad sport. It makes it sound like all you care about is winning and since you don't feel you can do that then you are going to stay home a pout. Yeah its probably for the best anyways since you most likely would give your opponent a miserable game just to prove whatever point you are trying to make. I understand that playing cheesy overtooled tourney lists somewhat sucks and its a reason I too tend to avoid most tourneys as well, but if I show up for open gaming I play whatever and whoever wants a game. You sound like the local a-hole in every store who wont play kids or customizes his list depending on his opponent. Whatever, sit in your corner and brood, you wont be missed.

Way to add constructivley to a topic, Oh and also personally attack someone and assume alot about them. I feel that purifiers not only charging but on BEING charged can potentially wipe out 12 to 15 models out of a 30 strong squad with low saves is a terrible rule, and that they are spammed to take advantage of this lack of foresight rule for maximum benefit. Just as many people think longfangs are way undercosted for their abilities (which have been proven in more than one tournament recently). But I dont see the point in telling you this, since your just an alt troll account with 15 posts.

Just play the game no matter what silly list your oppoennt brings.

And as an Ork player what's the worst that can happen? You get wiped out? Well that's okay then because that doesn't counts as an Ork loss now, does it?

cgage00 wrote:I think it is rude to tell a player " I won't play against you because you play (insert list)". I had some guy tell me that and it was me and another friend there we just ignored him and ge sat alone.

This is a social hobby and it's part painting modeling and part playing games if it be friendly fluff or competitive. If you want to be a jerk and say you play a Matt ward book then stop playing 5th edition cause he had a hand in that as well.

At the same time, it's not all that much fun to show up looking for a friendly game at your FLGS and run into a guy who brought his WAAC tournament army that will wipe the table with you. I enjoy the challenge of tournament play, but I also enjoy playing more casual laid back games against non-netlisted fluffy armies at times.

If I show up with a non-competitive army and agree to play a WAAC army the game isn't really fun for either player as the WAAC guy isn't challenged and the non-WAAC guy doesn't stand a chance.

I'm not saying that GKs are some kind of vastly OP army, but there are some nasty builds that I'd shy away from playing if I show up with a non-competitive army. I may want to come back and challenge the same army the following week with my tournament build and test my skills and list against it.

Augustus5: You've pretty much described the core of the gaming hobby. It's always been this way.

augustus5 wrote:

cgage00 wrote:I think it is rude to tell a player " I won't play against you because you play (insert list)". I had some guy tell me that and it was me and another friend there we just ignored him and ge sat alone.

This is a social hobby and it's part painting modeling and part playing games if it be friendly fluff or competitive. If you want to be a jerk and say you play a Matt ward book then stop playing 5th edition cause he had a hand in that as well.

At the same time, it's not all that much fun to show up looking for a friendly game at your FLGS and run into a guy who brought his WAAC tournament army that will wipe the table with you. I enjoy the challenge of tournament play, but I also enjoy playing more casual laid back games against non-netlisted fluffy armies at times.

If I show up with a non-competitive army and agree to play a WAAC army the game isn't really fun for either player as the WAAC guy isn't challenged and the non-WAAC guy doesn't stand a chance.

I'm not saying that GKs are some kind of vastly OP army, but there are some nasty builds that I'd shy away from playing if I show up with a non-competitive army. I may want to come back and challenge the same army the following week with my tournament build and test my skills and list against it.

If he isn't trying to cheat, it isn't at 'All Costs'...

Surtur wrote:Scream Waaaaagh in their face until they leave. A surrender is still a win for you!

LOL THIS IS SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elessar wrote:
If he isn't trying to cheat, it isn't at 'All Costs'...

By that same logic, if he isn't pointing a gun at you it isn't "All Costs":

Haha, I wish there was a '+karma/like' option on this forum

Orock wrote:

MajorSoB wrote:Getting back to your orginal question, yes ducking a GK army makes you a bad sport. It makes it sound like all you care about is winning and since you don't feel you can do that then you are going to stay home a pout. Yeah its probably for the best anyways since you most likely would give your opponent a miserable game just to prove whatever point you are trying to make. I understand that playing cheesy overtooled tourney lists somewhat sucks and its a reason I too tend to avoid most tourneys as well, but if I show up for open gaming I play whatever and whoever wants a game. You sound like the local a-hole in every store who wont play kids or customizes his list depending on his opponent. Whatever, sit in your corner and brood, you wont be missed.

Way to add constructivley to a topic, Oh and also personally attack someone and assume alot about them. I feel that purifiers not only charging but on BEING charged can potentially wipe out 12 to 15 models out of a 30 strong squad with low saves is a terrible rule, and that they are spammed to take advantage of this lack of foresight rule for maximum benefit. Just as many people think longfangs are way undercosted for their abilities (which have been proven in more than one tournament recently). But I dont see the point in telling you this, since your just an alt troll account with 15 posts.

No, I was correct on everything I assumed about you! FYI, the reason I have so few posts is because there is so little here on Dakka worth commenting on. You can justify your reasoning behind not wanting to play GK with all the pointless math hammer that you would like, but in the end you come off as someone who prizes winning well above every other part of this hobby. Good job, again if I want to find you I am sure you will again be sulking in the corner or packing up your toys and heading home since no one want to play your way. The fact remains I answered your question just like many others who posted here and YOU didn't like what you heard.

Only the two sentences of your post were a response to his question. The rest of it was largely hostile invective that you presupposed onto him based not upon what he wrote, but your own feelings on someone you've never met.

I think it best we draw this to a close here for now.