Hi Dakka, Lately I have been reading through the space marine battle novels and I have noticed that when they are fighting orks, thjey are somtimes out-smarted and get really p***ed of when the orks out-smart them and later on in the book they talk about orks like they are idiots, so now I am wondering if orks are much smarter than what they are given credit for, what do you think ?

I would not call it intelligence. It is more similar to an animal's instinct, or a beast's cunning tricks. But it is perfectly true that orks are very often underestimated by other races.

They have this reputation of being complete idiots mainly because of their relatively primitive tech, along with their favorite tactic of charging up the middle yelling and shooting at anything moving.

In addition, this unsuspected intelligence among orks is only found with a few exceptional individuals that usually end up occupying positions of power (like warboss or big mek), and thus transmit their intelligence to the rest of the warband.

But most orks are definitely retards.

Please don't use the words "slow" or "slowed" as synonyms for "idiot" or "stupid" or in any other derogatory sense.

Thanks!

Manchu

When Orks are described as stupid it's just the person being arrogant.

They appear stupid because they are crude. The truth is that they just have no interest in the things we see as signs of intelligence. We seem Orks as unable to advance and as brutish and violent but that is just the way orks behave. They are clever enough to advance and live peacefully but why would they want to. As an eldar is quoted as saying in the ork codex, they are perfectly happy as they are, from thier perspective ork society is perfect.

When it comes to directing their attention to tasks which they enjoy, they are suprising good at thinking. Because of the way they behave they think in a much more primitive way. Instead of questioning why a plan is good they just have an instinctive idea of what to do.

If you look at the blood axes they have reasoned thinking when it comes to war and regularly outsmart imperial generals. They are clever enough to make deals with humans and to not just kill everything in sight.

Yeah, I have noticed that everyone is shocked in sm novels when orks out-smart them. In purging of Kaddilus Nazdreg (I think it was him) out-smarted the chaplin, even though the chaplin assumed he knew what the orks were doing. It is allways funny when the impirium thinks it has worked out what the orks will do.

Aaah, the irony of smarter being spelt incorrectly. Classic.

I wouldn't say they're exactly smart, but they are more... 'cunning'. They're not exactly going to write the dictionary of win the nobel prize, but they shouldn't be underestimated, the intelligent ones get into positions of power and they can be quite intelligent in matters war-related IMHO.

They aren't dumb or stupid or slowed...
They just mostly of the times think that tactics are un-orky but sometimes the warboss or somebody else says that mork (or gork) is cunningly brutal so then they apply some orky strategiez.
But you can't call them smart anyway, they also have a nice animal instinct....

Ork strategy and tactics are akin to an angler fish's "tactics" of catching prey. It's all instinctual.

Yes, orks aren't going to come up with complicated military tactics such as outflanking and all that. The truth is they don't need to. And orks recognise this. They know they don't need this as there's enough of them and they're strong enough to go without tactics. One can't deny the orks lack of intelligence is holding them back.

However there are orks who are probably slightly more intelligent than the others. Kommandos and stormboyz spring to mind. True stormboyz probably like the thrill of zooming through the air with a jetpack, but both groups recoginize the advantage of closing with the enemy quicker and taking out key units which may have otherwise hindered the orks' advance.

They did invent a force field...do the space marines have one of those?

They can also operate eldar technology, imperium technology, sm tech, tau technology, somehow figure out how to take a bright lance, a predator and a catapult to make a rolling terror of mixmashed advanced technology that actually operates.

Is intelligence how well spoken one is, or how creative one is to solving the current problem at the moment, such as sneaking up on the chaplain, sometimes all it takes is a giant rocket strapped to your back screaming as you drop down ontop of him. Ork idea of stealth yields the same end goal of surprise attack, just the execution is a bit different.

For the average Boy, partaking in tactics in combat is like a child employing tactics on a bouncy castle. What would be the point? As long as bouncing (combat) occurs, everything is peachy.

However as they live longer, surviving through more and more fights, they grow. Not just their muscles, but their brains as well. They do become smarter. Thats why you have Nobz, Bosses and Warbosses who understand tactical concepts because a battle won means you are more likely to survive and thus more likely to see yourself stuck into another fight.

Orks have a different approach and conception of intelligence than humans. Underestimating their cunning and ability to problem solve ends with you on the wrong side of a Kommando choppa.

who needs to invent all the tech when you can be the one who knows how to operate it all and combine it in new and interesting ways!

Orks are very smart.

For example;

Ork meks can use warp travel and teleportation to send a unit of grotz into a target (yes, into as in inside)
Not really subtle, but it shows they have a very good grasp on tech.

However, orks are more artificial intelligence.
Its all instinct with them on the most part, they are simply born into a role.

The fact that there is also a great deal of mystery about them still is another thing.

Weapons like shootas cant be fired by anyone but orks.
Its simply believed that the orks sheer willpower makes them work.
While this is hard to grasp, its true.


Much like red vehicles going faster.

Lets face it, have marines designed a paint that allows a vehicle faster movement yet?
Its all willpower and belief with them.

DrCrook wrote:They did invent a force field...do the space marines have one of those?

They can also operate eldar technology, imperium technology, sm tech, tau technology, somehow figure out how to take a bright lance, a predator and a catapult to make a rolling terror of mixmashed advanced technology that actually operates.

Is intelligence how well spoken one is, or how creative one is to solving the current problem at the moment, such as sneaking up on the chaplain, sometimes all it takes is a giant rocket strapped to your back screaming as you drop down ontop of him. Ork idea of stealth yields the same end goal of surprise attack, just the execution is a bit different.

Not to mention that they actually will things to work. It can be argued (or indisputable) that Orks are the strongest psykers in the universe because insinctually they can will things to work that otherwise would not work if someone else tried to operate it. All they need to do is believe that it will fire, and it will.

DrCrook wrote:They did invent a force field...do the space marines have one of those?

They can also operate eldar technology, imperium technology, sm tech, tau technology, somehow figure out how to take a bright lance, a predator and a catapult to make a rolling terror of mixmashed advanced technology that actually operates.

Is intelligence how well spoken one is, or how creative one is to solving the current problem at the moment, such as sneaking up on the chaplain, sometimes all it takes is a giant rocket strapped to your back screaming as you drop down ontop of him. Ork idea of stealth yields the same end goal of surprise attack, just the execution is a bit different.

Orks follow their instints through a few are smart and are part of the few that become leaders, but not always great ones.

ORKS ARE SUPER SMART FTW!

Orks can learn aswell, if they work out humans are communicating using a comms tower the warboss wants to destroy it. (I think that was in rynns world)

Orks are different, not plain stupid as such. They just don't bother with useless questions when all can be solved by using enough dakka or axes.

Orks are just as capable of tactical decisions and learning from experience as humans are. However, due to their alien nature and thus different logic patterns and biological imperatives, we might see them as crude or even stupid.

Orks are brilliant in their field of expertise. The average boy is a brilliant and highly skilled hand to hand combatant, able to stand toe to toe with a Space Marine in raw melee skill. A mekboy is a mad scientist whose brilliance (and madness) is constantly increasing the more he does his little mad science. A warboss is a brilliant strategist and tactician, as well as a cunning leader of Orks (And humans occasionally) And so on and so forth.

Claiming this intelligence is artificial is misleading. A horse doesn't need to be taught how to stand up like a human does-- it will stand up within an hour or two of being born. Orks are much the same way, they mature differently than we humans do, and by the time they leave the little spore sac and claw their way to the surface to join the warband as a yoof they have developed to the point of adolescence.

A recently born common yoof doesn't know what flanking is... but they know how to flank, after all, mork sez hit 'em 'ard when dey ain't lookin'. A recently born mekboy doesn't know what a tank is... but he knows the fundamentals of mechanics. A dok doesn't know the name for at squirty little organ right there or that funny looking bone over here, but he understands their function, and the rudiments of biology and chemistry.

Eldar Own wrote:orks aren't going to come up with complicated military tactics such as outflanking

Uhm... yes. They are.

Melissia wrote:.

Eldar Own wrote:orks aren't going to come up with complicated military tactics such as outflanking

Uhm... yes. They are.

Keep sayin' that, Eldarface, it gives my Kommandos the time they need to sneak up and stab you in the unmentionables.

Orks haven't been "stupid" in a long time. They are described as being as smart as humans just more direct in their thinking.

Heck, they out flanked Farsight in the codex, and then looted an entire tau base because they need the dakka to compete in the fire fights. If an Imperial suggested that they might get shot for heresy or something.

Jackal wrote:

Weapons like shootas cant be fired by anyone but orks.
Its simply believed that the orks sheer willpower makes them work.
While this is hard to grasp, its true.

Catachan ork hunters, They use shootas.

Now the whole red makeing it go faster, theres no way to explain that

TPSOhuzzar wrote:

Catachan ork hunters, They use shootas.

Citation needed

Ork weapons are usable by humans in Dark Heresy, they're just less reliable in human hands (not designed for humans after all). And there's people using Ork weapons and vehicles in the Cain books.

DrCrook wrote:They did invent a force field...do the space marines have one of those?

They can also operate eldar technology, imperium technology, sm tech, tau technology, somehow figure out how to take a bright lance, a predator and a catapult to make a rolling terror of mixmashed advanced technology that actually operates.

If you read the codex it says that orks are psykers and if they believe in something it'll work...

That is the irony of the Orks, they are quite possibly the most powerful psykers out there, but they don't know it.

DAWARBOSS wrote:

DrCrook wrote:They did invent a force field...do the space marines have one of those?

They can also operate eldar technology, imperium technology, sm tech, tau technology, somehow figure out how to take a bright lance, a predator and a catapult to make a rolling terror of mixmashed advanced technology that actually operates.

If you read the codex it says that orks are psykers and if they believe in something it'll work...

No it doesn't.

Maybe it was retconned, but my 3rd edition codex clearly states in a little blurb that ork shootas wont fire if held by humans.

It goes on further to state their psychic collective wills their technology into utility.

AdeptusAssfartes wrote:Maybe it was retconned, but my 3rd edition codex clearly states in a little blurb that ork shootas wont fire if held by humans.

It's been long since retconned, yes.

Orks aren't smart. They're kunnin'.

Besides, the knowledge they need to do certain things has actually been encoded in their dna by the old ones.

Jackal wrote:Orks are very smart.

For example;

Ork meks can use warp travel and teleportation to send a unit of grotz into a target (yes, into as in inside)
Not really subtle, but it shows they have a very good grasp on tech.

However, orks are more artificial intelligence.
Its all instinct with them on the most part, they are simply born into a role.

The fact that there is also a great deal of mystery about them still is another thing.

Weapons like shootas cant be fired by anyone but orks.
Its simply believed that the orks sheer willpower makes them work.
While this is hard to grasp, its true.


Much like red vehicles going faster.

Lets face it, have marines designed a paint that allows a vehicle faster movement yet?
Its all willpower and belief with them.

Good point and oh so true. Orks are all about instinct. yes some have been known to show tactical prowess only through facing the same foes repeatedly knowing how that race will react and in how long they will usually take to do it so to strike before they have time to react. (case in point in "Rynn's World") win for orks

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Orks haven't been "stupid" in a long time. They are described as being as smart as humans just more direct in their thinking.

I remember when Orks were the kind of comedy factor race. They've always been a race that loved to fight but they've definitely got more kunnin' and stealfy over the years. I do miss their old incarnation a bit as I think that's what drew me to them in the first place. I did think about digging out my old 2nd Ed Ork army and starting anew with them but the codex left me a bit empty inside.

Don't get me wrong they still sound fun to play and have great characters and background, I just preferred the slightly denser, slightly crazier, version. I think the Orks from the original Dawn of War is a spot on interpretation of how I imagine they would be.

But on topic, Orks should never be underestimated as they have many kunnin' plans, no matter how stupid they might act or look. Warfare is what they were created for after all.

It is widely believed in Ork soceity that machines painted in a red colour operate faster. As disturbing as it sounds, 'facts' such as this become true. Many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wuelded by an ork. I theorise that many ork inventions work because the orks themselves think they should work. the strong telekinetic abilities of the ork subconscious somehow ensure they function as desired.

Genetor Lukas Anzion
Hereditary skill acquisition within the ork caste.

page 10 ork codex

And I cant believe I got suckered into a fluff debate excuse me as I go shower like a rape victim

Jackal wrote:Orks are very smart.

For example;

Ork meks can use warp travel and teleportation to send a unit of grotz into a target (yes, into as in inside)
Not really subtle, but it shows they have a very good grasp on tech.

However, orks are more artificial intelligence.
Its all instinct with them on the most part, they are simply born into a role.

The fact that there is also a great deal of mystery about them still is another thing.

Weapons like shootas cant be fired by anyone but orks.
Its simply believed that the orks sheer willpower makes them work.
While this is hard to grasp, its true.


Much like red vehicles going faster.

Lets face it, have marines designed a paint that allows a vehicle faster movement yet?
Its all willpower and belief with them.

That's their magic! If the orks believe it will work than it will work.
Weirdboy's take that energy out of the air and make powerful magic with that to.

jelisi wrote:That's their magic! If the orks believe it will work than it will work.

Once again, that is not true. Ork technology works.

A significant portion of the ork armory only works because the orks believe it works. Most of the rest is looted. The fluff supports this. however, the question at hand, is whether they are smarter than we give tham credit for. the answer to that is yes. after all, "imperial doctrine" declares that orks come on in endless waves. (taken from the fluff about Snikrot) yet Snikrot, and other Kommandos have been known to get in and get out without a trace. in fact, Snikrot was able to deduce, from a small number of bad scraps, that the Catachan guardsmen deployed to Armageddon were superior jungle fighters, and learned how to beat them at their own game. now he is more feared than Ghazkull.

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:A significant portion of the ork armory only works because the orks believe it works

False. A significant portion of the Ork armoury works no matter who holds it, it just works better in the hands of an Ork. There's a very distinct difference.

Melissia wrote:

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:A significant portion of the ork armory only works because the orks believe it works

False. A significant portion of the Ork armoury works no matter who holds it, it just works better in the hands of an Ork. There's a very distinct difference.

no weapons made for an ork will not work in the hands of anyone else.

Orkymike wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:A significant portion of the ork armory only works because the orks believe it works

False. A significant portion of the Ork armoury works no matter who holds it, it just works better in the hands of an Ork. There's a very distinct difference.

no weapons made for an ork will not work in the hands of anyone else.

Yes they will, and I've already provided citations where they have.

The likelihood that the 'orks are as intelligent as chickens' party will change their minds is the same likelihood that the grass will turn bright purple without outside influence. They are stubborn and unlikely to change their dogma.

Melissia wrote:

AdeptusAssfartes wrote:Maybe it was retconned, but my 3rd edition codex clearly states in a little blurb that ork shootas wont fire if held by humans.

It's been long since retconned, yes.

Yergh, and people say female marines would be blasphemy

lol

So is the arguement now that orks are dumb because they use their superior psyker abilities to mash silly advanced technology together to make it work?

From my understanding that is extremely intelligent, I mean come on, they are leveraging their psyker abilities to make super advanced tech that nobody else can use? Too bad the rest of the races can't get on that wagon.

BTW, Im not a big fluff junkie, but how exactly does one become a psyker in the 40k universe? In alot of other sci fi type books its usually something along the lines of the psyker has a part of their brain that is just too damn big and over powered, so it is able to manifest physically as well, following that logic, and the general consensus that orks are the best psykers, so powerful in fact that red paint makes trukks go fasta and weapons fire and nobody else can use them, would that not mean they are infact the MOST INTELLIGENT race?

One of the biggest designs in super powered weapons nowadays is a security measure so that an enemy force can not leverage that weapon against them, assuming a typical increased technological curve as the 40k universe implies, there will still be some sort of mechanism (albeit more advanced) each race will attempt to put in place to prevent their best weapons from being used against them. The orks can bypass that, mash them all together and make a new weapon that nobody can use. Now thats smart!

BTW, don't know about you guys, but a large majority of the sci fi novels and movies I enjoy if there is a person who can use their mind to will things to happen, its usually because they are too smart for their physical being to contain. Just read/watch Matilda...oh yeah, I went there.

Fluff debates are a bit of fun, always fun to ruffle some feathers of some hard core fanatics.

I personnaly think they use telekinetic abilaties to use their weapons, if they were psykers surely blanks and tyranids would beet them easily because they would stop their weapons working. Some ork technolidgy does not need an ork to use it, yarrick has a powerklaw and other races can probably use some of their technolidgy.

But anyway the topic is not weather orks are psykers.

Oh and Btw DrCrook, how someone becomes a psyker is WAAAAY of topic

Orks are a relic from the days when the fluff tended toward the really, really silly as opposed to the really silly and frustrating. They were a comic race that essentially used garbage as weapons. In order to have them compete on the game table they were 'back-fluffed' to say that they had the ability to make the improbable possible by some innate psychic ability.

I prefer to see them as cunning, but not very 'bright' on average. The Mekboyz being the 'idiot savants' of the group. It's a fun race to play considering all the grimdarkness of the other races... well, except the Tau, they make me laugh just because...

Uhlan wrote:Orks are a relic

No, that's Space Marines. Orks are the interesting part, not the relic.

They are the unending horde of barbarians at the gates-- whose brute strength and cunning mind will bash through your defenses-- or slip around them-- so that they can destroy everything you love. Their biology is simple and lends to their brutality, and their culture is so alien to us that very few humans can truly understand the Orkoid mindset.

Pilau Rice wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Orks haven't been "stupid" in a long time. They are described as being as smart as humans just more direct in their thinking.

I remember when Orks were the kind of comedy factor race. They've always been a race that loved to fight but they've definitely got more kunnin' and stealfy over the years. I do miss their old incarnation a bit as I think that's what drew me to them in the first place. I did think about digging out my old 2nd Ed Ork army and starting anew with them but the codex left me a bit empty inside.

Don't get me wrong they still sound fun to play and have great characters and background, I just preferred the slightly denser, slightly crazier, version. I think the Orks from the original Dawn of War is a spot on interpretation of how I imagine they would be.

But on topic, Orks should never be underestimated as they have many kunnin' plans, no matter how stupid they might act or look. Warfare is what they were created for after all.

Yeah, DoW Orks are the best. I love it when you click on a building and they just yell "ORKS! ORKS! ORKS! ORKS!"

Ugh. I vastly preferred the less comical and more serious DoW2 orks.

Orkymike wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:A significant portion of the ork armory only works because the orks believe it works

False. A significant portion of the Ork armoury works no matter who holds it, it just works better in the hands of an Ork. There's a very distinct difference.

no weapons made for an ork will not work in the hands of anyone else.

Most weapons made by Orks do not work for other people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Ugh. I vastly preferred the less comical and more serious DoW2 orks.

That's makes one of you

No.... most weapons made by orks DO work for other people. It's the really crazy stuff that requires a mekboy to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Ugh. I vastly preferred the less comical and more serious DoW2 orks.

That's makes one of you

I prefer Orks as the brutal and cunning barbarians at the gates as presented in Dow2 than the laughable, weak, and pathetic jokes that they are in DoW1.

Many shootas and other equipment found by humans upon closer inspection does not work. Some shootas that were just shooting previously when stripped down are revealed to not possible have actually been working. It's as if the gun is firing through sheer force of will on the orks part.

And yet, Ciaphas Cain and his followers used Ork equipment and weapons for days and only one trukk broke down (frankly, if Orks were riding it that would have been a pretty good month, trukks and other ork vehicles are notorious for their malfunctions)

Ah, that Cain. He's a zany one.

Yes Cain is zany. I have allways like the idea of ork cunning. The thought of a horde of orks outside of a fortress wall whilst the defenders watch in fear and then suddenly the alarms go of and a group of Kommandos has gotten in and opens the gates allowing the horde in. Who dose not like the concept of that ?

Indeed. Or the ORks are hiding stormboyz in their number, and all fo the sudden a roar of sound bursts from the boyz and stormboyz come flyin' in.

I think I like the comical orks the best. The ones who wear pirate jackets, shove grots strapped to rockets into cannons etc.

pst moonshine...read the whole post and you'll understand why how becoming a psyker in the 40k universe is relevant to my point on orkz being intelligent.

I think it would be neat to run a poll at the end of this and see what the over-all consensus is...Anybody know how to set that up?

gosh, I really don't have much to do today do I...lets see, cold, rainy...and cloud computing homework to put off...yeah, I know why Im in here, lol

DrCrook wrote:I think I like the comical orks the best. The ones who wear pirate jackets, shove grots strapped to rockets into cannons etc.

What's wrong with wearing pirate jackets and hats? You can be serious and wear those. And it's not like Orks have much other use for grots,

Melissia wrote:

DrCrook wrote:I think I like the comical orks the best. The ones who wear pirate jackets, shove grots strapped to rockets into cannons etc.

What's wrong with wearing pirate jackets and hats? You can be serious and wear those. And it's not like Orks have much other use for grots,

That made me laugh.

THAT is the comedy of Orks. Orks are completely serious, their funny bits are more funny because they're so bizarre to our culture, rather than because they're simply nonsensical. What Orks do is just as rational as what we do... it just uses a different set of base reasoning than we would because Orks don't have the same societal problems we do.

Ok so most weapons made by the orks do not work in human hands. if the weapons were looted from another race then im sure it would work if someone were to use it other than an ork. (at least IMHO)

.... again, most of them do work in non-Ork hands.

They just work BETTER in Ork hands (IE, going from unreliable and prone to jamming, to perfectly crafted weapons of destruction).

I think I can agree with that. Not sure why what appears to nothing more than an Ork autogun has as much kick as a bolter other than " 'every git know an ork shootas got more dakka "

The problem with the whole "Ork technology works because they think it should" only occurs due to the quote by a Imperial in the Ork codex. Personally, I don't think this can be counted as fact, since the Imperium believes all technology works because the machine spirit. So it stands to reason that technology that works simply because it was built properly is odd to them. Also, consider that in the fluff, the Imperium rarely acknowledges Orks as intelligent(otherwise would be heresy), so this also has to do with it most likely.

many good points thrown back and forth here, i was afraid i might lose an eye.
i've always viewed it like this: an ork can take a handful of shells of random caliber and cram them into a clip, and they work in his shoota, in part, simply because of the belief that it should work. but one ork by himself won't have much luck. they aren't so much powerful psykers as they all constantly generate a low-level hum. the more ya have, the better things go. their more bizarre technologies are partially fueled by the belief that they should work, but their chaotic mindset tends to make things unpredictable. that, and their utter lack of fear. i don't think orks experience real fear, so much as a shallow, prolonged form of fright that serves as survival instinct. which is why they've come closer to perfecting warp travel and teleportation than most others; they fear neither failure or the the perils of the warp. however, they are less adept at passing these things from generation to generation than even the crudest oral cultures in human history. how far back can eldar, imperial, or tau histories be traced, even with gaps? milennia, eons, etc. how far back does known ork history go? to any nob, maybe a couple decades before he was born, and even then he would only know the best tales of the fiercest bosses, like wazdakka gutsmek flying his flaming bike into the command center of a titan and slaughtering the crew....

Astute analysis new guy/lurker.

thanks.
as an addendum, one might note that orks are constantly, and redundantly, reinventing things that have been made before. different parts go in, and they 'work' in different ways, but they accomplish the same goals.
orks are a lazy lot, though, hence the prevalence of looting, and enslavement of entire manufacturing facilities to produce weapons and war machines.
without standards for designs and such, their own constructions should vary wildly. it's like that show that used to be on the discovery channel, 'monster garage'. if you took a dozen teams of mechanics and gave them all the same goal, you'd get a dozen different designs for the same function. i try very hard to make my ork vehicles reflect this; my looted wagon is a chimera, my dread is a sentinel, one trukk is built as per instructions, another made to look like humungus's truck from 'the road warrior', and yet another is converted from a wwii german half-track. my warbuggies, hard as they are to make different just because of their size, are even different. i won't go into battlewagons, as i'm still building my first, except for a small hint: a '37 ford sedan and an m4 sherman tank, mated together...

Oh, they do pass on things through word of mouth style legend in the oldest of ork kingdoms.

But what an Ork really wants to pass down through the ages isn't history... it's deeds, or techology in the case of mekboyz. Mekboyz do advance Ork tech regularly, and it oftentimes finds itself disseminating across the galaxy.

Yeah meks do improve or technolidgy, just read the purging of Kadillus and you will agree

Orks arn't really dumb,they just have a single drive and don't care much about the risks.

In DOW it even says don't mistake their single-mindedness for stupidity.

Look at it this way the shok attack gun and Stompa are all Ork inventions.
They just invented them to further their single minded drive for war.

Also, look at it this way. Orks are just as capable of all the things considered high-tech that the Imperium can do. More, in fact, as Orks still invent new items, whereas the Imperium relies on STC technology to function.

well, that weas certainly a fun discussion! So I guess the general consensus is...
Comical orks are cool, and they aren't dumb, they just attempt to do things whole heartedly with no fear...what a wonderful race!

Melissia wrote:Oh, they do pass on things through word of mouth style legend in the oldest of ork kingdoms.

that's what the term 'oral culture' refers to, even though orks are not strictly such, as they do have a crude glyph language. but the codex doesn't give much specific history prior to the rise of ghazkull.
and just as an observation, the term 'word of mouth style legend' is a tad wordy. if you want to convince people to at least consider believing your ideas, don't use five words where two will do.

Crude?
Would you call Egyptian Hyroglyphics crude?
Or the Roman language? Just because we cannot say it using English doesn't make it crude.

Ork glyphs are simplistic and uncomplex, because they are a very straightforward culture.

So straightforward that it's actually hard for us humans, whom are complex, to comprehend them many times.

They're able to travel through space to other planets, which even though it seems by accident, is still more advanced than what we're capable of now. I'd call that intelligent.

Orkymike wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:A significant portion of the ork armory only works because the orks believe it works

False. A significant portion of the Ork armoury works no matter who holds it, it just works better in the hands of an Ork. There's a very distinct difference.

no weapons made for an ork will not work in the hands of anyone else.

I don't think it's that black and white. There's a reference to an Adeptus Mechanicus adept taking apart an Ork Shoota only to discover it has no moving parts inside.

That's awesome

On the Red Wunz Go Fasta, which is my favourite rule, fluff and concept in any fictional ever, in one of the compilation books, some Ork Kommandoz paint their boots red so they can get into combat first.

Orks have a specialized intelligence, which from the point of view of an outside observer, makes them look stupid.

In reality, your average ork isn't that smart. He's not dumb as a brick stupid, he's probably around human intelligence.

Then you have the ork specialists, caused by what is theorized by the imperium as genetic modifications implimented by the progentors. They are, in many ways, idiot savants, able to do many things far and above more complicated than your average human or ork, but not alot else.

A big part of this is the differences in education required. For example, a human electronics specialist requires years of education in order to design electronic circuitry. An Ork Mekboy will almost instinctively understand such electronics. The assumption is that the human is smarter because he understands the underlying causes of why the electronics work. In reality, he doesn't. What he understands is a system of rules that mimic and simplify reality, while the mekboy doesn't need to do so to get to the same end result.

And of course, neither are qualified as medical doctors/painboys just because they are good at electronics.

The strength of the human mind when compared to the ork is that the human is capable of a much more diverse "understanding" of the universe. The disadvantage is that it takes them many years to get to this point.

When talking about ork psychics, realize that orks are more of a "hive psychic". The more orks, the more psychic power.

Heffling wrote:Orks have a specialized intelligence

I don't think their intelligence is specialized so much as their culture makes them focus their intelligence in a different way than we would.

A magnetic driver has no moving parts yet shoots projectiles....
Heck, if you thought laterally enough you could use water I suppose as an accelerant. Or air....

Just because we cannot explain it, doesn't mean its psychic.

the_ferrett wrote:A magnetic driver has no moving parts yet shoots projectiles....
Heck, if you thought laterally enough you could use water I suppose as an accelerant. Or air....

Just because we cannot explain it, doesn't mean its psychic.

Dude, it says in the codex that orks are very powerfull psykers, capable of making anything they build, as long as they believe in it, work. Were not assuming or guessing, were just saying what the codex says.

Weirdboyz are powerful psykers. Ork boyz are not.

There are numerous examples of non-Orks using Ork equipment and it working. Ork equipment doesn't have to be in the hands of an Ork to work... it just works BETTER in the hands of an Ork. There's a very distinct difference.

In Dark Heresy this is explained thusly-- wielded by a non-Ork, a shoota is unreliable (it has a bigger chance ot jam). Wielded by an Ork, it's reliable (it basically never jams).

Orks do may their tech work properly by thinking it will but it's not as powerful as a lot of people think it is.

Shootas that have no internal parts won't fire even when an ork uses it. Shootas that are missing a small part or that have slight damage will only work for orks.

Their psychic ability fixes small problems (bad ammo, worn parts, or just generally making it more powerful) but it doesn't turn a lump of metal into a shoota.

That's because Orks aren't psykers as we think of them.

Orks instead generate a gestalt psychic field-- aside from weirdboyz, Orks have no actual psychic powers, but this gestalt field has minor effects on other Orks and on objects Orks are using, making them more efficient depending on the confidence of the Orks involved (and the more Orks involved, the more confident they are).

This phenomenom isn't unique to the Orks either. Seemly miraculous things happen on the battlefield for the sisters for example. Entire gods have lived and died in the Eldar mind.
Once upon a time the old ones created several races whose souls affected the immaterium. When these races put their minds to something very unusual things can happen...

4M2A wrote:Orks do may their tech work properly by thinking it will but it's not as powerful as a lot of people think it is.

Shootas that have no internal parts won't fire even when an ork uses it. Shootas that are missing a small part or that have slight damage will only work for orks.

Their psychic ability fixes small problems (bad ammo, worn parts, or just generally making it more powerful) but it doesn't turn a lump of metal into a shoota.

#

Sorry but this isn't true. All Orks are latent psykers. Their technology and inventions work largely because they believe it does and, conversely, it does.

Ork Codex, p10 "As disturbing as it sounds, 'facts' such as this become true. Many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wielded by an Ork."

Ork Codex, p93 "Orks believe that a vehicle that has been painted red can outstrip a similar vehicle that isn't. As odd as it may seem, they are quite right."

Miraclefish wrote:Ork Codex, p10 "As disturbing as it sounds, 'facts' such as this become true. Many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wielded by an Ork."

... which is said by Genetor Lukas Anzion.

For one, he's a Magos Genetor, and so technology is not his line of expertise to begin with. And for two, he's a Techpriest of Mars, they believe that anything that isn't Human shouldn't work.

To say that he is a dubious source is an understatement. We have actual fluff sources that show humans using Ork equipment, it doesn't fall apart in their hands, in fact it functions quite well, if a bit ramshackle.

The ork codex says MANY captured weapon not ALL, some weapons some weapons can be used by humans but most others can only be used by orks

moonshine wrote:The ork codex says MANY captured weapon not ALL, some weapons some weapons can be used by humans but most others can only be used by orks

It doesn't say that... not the most recent one. It only has a quote from said Magos Genetor, who is very unreliable.

And Dark Heresy says that most Ork weapons can be used by humans, they're just unreliable in human hands. All BL fluff about this has humans using Ork weapons without a problem-- even once I think where Astartes used these weapons.

Old fluff has been retconned, and is better for it.

ey, even if it's just 10% of the weaponry that's actually usable by 'oomies, that's still a lot of Shoota. Lotza Orks, after all.

Also, to be honest, given that in the full report of Anzion's conclusions (found in ye old codex, if I do remember rightly) there are constant footnotes detailing that Anzion speculated wildly when it came to his weaponry theory. There are many reasons why an ork weapon might not work for a human, battlefield damage being one of them; orks do have an annoying habit of hitting people with unsuitable weapons should the situation call for it.