I've seen alot of Matt Ward hate (deservedly so), and it got me thinking. What do you think was the darkest moment in 40k fluff? Black Library stuff counts as well.

Blud angel Bromance with the Crons.

Grey Templar wrote:Blud angel Bromance with the Crons.

Yup, by a landslide.

I've been getting a lot of use out of this motivational recently

at least the GKs killing the SoB made some sense

Harriticus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Blud angel Bromance with the Crons.

Yup, by a landslide.

Indeed, nothing comes close.

Somehow, In my heart, I hoped something non-ward related would come up. I am a fool.

do you guys remember the worst non-ward related fluff ever?

hmmm,

GOTO!!!!!

Grey Templar wrote:Blud angel Bromance with the Crons.

Is that in the BA codex? I didn't read the fluff in there yet.

My vote is for 7 Space Marines and Fulgrim fighting off an Eldar Warhost led by an Avatar and Eldrad Ulthran then only losing 2 Marines.

You might be thinking, "but Fulgrim was a Primarch", except laid on the ground laughing the entire battle after killing 2 guys (one Wraithlord and Avatar). And the Wraithlord killed the 2 Marines. So zero other casualties caused by the Eldar.

Or that whole "all eldar are chaos/dark eldar" Goto-ism.

BUT GOTO IS WARD!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Goto is pretty awful.

I remember reading something by him (can't member wut) in which he assumed Terminator armor gave you the gift of flight.

yup. goto.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Blud angel Bromance with the Crons.

Is that in the BA codex? I didn't read the fluff in there yet.

it's in the Log of events where it gives the dates.


it's on the upper left somewhere. just a little blurb.

Grey Templar wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Blud angel Bromance with the Crons.

Is that in the BA codex? I didn't read the fluff in there yet.

it's in the Log of events where it gives the dates.

it's on the upper left somewhere. just a little blurb.

Wow. They really team-up with Necrons. Can somebody please fire that guy.

Out of a cannon.

Termies flipping off of Rhinos, and SM shooting Multilazors.

He is become Goto, destroyer of fluff.

Chowderhead wrote:Termies flipping off of Rhinos, and SM shooting Multilazors.

He is become Goto, destroyer of fluff.

+1 LOL

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Blud angel Bromance with the Crons.

Is that in the BA codex? I didn't read the fluff in there yet.

it's in the Log of events where it gives the dates.

it's on the upper left somewhere. just a little blurb.

Wow. They really team-up with Necrons. Can somebody please fire that guy.

Out of a cannon.

well, it was more of they stopped attacking each other to focus on the Tyranids.

they COULD have done that without ever actually fighting back to back and side to side.


if they had left out the Impromtu alliance line it would have been just fine.

I would say the GK's doing a service to Khorne by killing the SoB in the GK dex is a low point of fluff for me. Its just ridiculous.

O

DarknessEternal wrote:My vote is for 7 Space Marines and Fulgrim fighting off an Eldar Warhost led by an Avatar and Eldrad Ulthran then only losing 2 Marines.

You might be thinking, "but Fulgrim was a Primarch", except laid on the ground laughing the entire battle after killing 2 guys (one Wraithlord and Avatar). And the Wraithlord killed the 2 Marines. So zero other casualties caused by the Eldar.

Or that whole "all eldar are chaos/dark eldar" Goto-ism.

Eldar had some bad dice rolls is all. They will have better luck next time.

Tho I'm sure Fulgrim was laughing because he's cheatin' bastard with his loaded dice n that.

Blood Angels + Necros vs Tyranids? M.Ward sounds like the Micheal Bay of 40k

DarknessEternal wrote:My vote is for 7 Space Marines and Fulgrim fighting off an Eldar Warhost led by an Avatar and Eldrad Ulthran then only losing 2 Marines.

You might be thinking, "but Fulgrim was a Primarch", except laid on the ground laughing the entire battle after killing 2 guys (one Wraithlord and Avatar). And the Wraithlord killed the 2 Marines. So zero other casualties caused by the Eldar.

Or that whole "all eldar are chaos/dark eldar" Goto-ism.

This is how Eldar defeat spacemarines

hahaha! Where'd you find that?

Grey Templar wrote:
well, it was more of they stopped attacking each other to focus on the Tyranids.

they COULD have done that without ever actually fighting back to back and side to side.


if they had left out the Impromtu alliance line it would have been just fine.

It's not actually that bad, but as is the way with this kind of thing it has gained gravitas with each telling:

955.M41 The Gehenna Campaign

Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to it's limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the blood angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.

My least favorite bit is the bit that FW felt that had to add concening the Land Raider and Land Speeder.

You would think you might know why they are named such. Because they, you know, operate on Land and such like. No! They were created by someone called 'Arkhan Land'
Either a bit of humour that slightly missed the mark, or the laziest piece of background ever, done by the work experience boy at 4.45 on a Friday afternoon.

I also hate the whole reason for Horus turning to Chaos; a result of him being stabbed by a magic sword. The whole reason for the destruction of the Emperor and his armies, the creation of the entire setting of the 40k universe, and ultimately the destruction of the human race. And why did it happen? Because 'a wizard did it'. I can make a much more in depth reason of why I think this is the biggest failing in GW's history of writing background, but I don't want to bore people with it (and kill the thread, which inevitably happens )

Pacific wrote:
I also hate the whole reason for Horus turning to Chaos; a result of him being stabbed by a magic sword.

The two are only barely related. Horus wanted to be in charge because the Emperor is a bad father. He also happened to be near death at the time.

I knew I shouldn't have written that comment, as I don't have time to write it out in full. Oh well, the crying baby can wait (joke).

The point being, we were treated to very little internal monologue from Horus, very little that touched upon why he actually thought he could do a better job than the Emperor. There was the briefest mention of the Marines worrying about what would happen to them when there job was done, of an Imperium run by petty bureaucrats. But all in all it was barely touched upon. So, we were expected to believe that Horus was turning his back on 200 years of warfare, of fighting alongside his father and being party to his plans, of having that huge responsibility of taking that huge burden on his own shoulders. Not only that, but to do the unthinkable - to destroy his own brothers and progeny, both inside and outside the Legion, to destroy the very Imperium he had helped to create.

He threw all of that away, and decided he could do a better job. And why? There was just not enough rational causality in Horus' decisions, not enough there to convince why he was taking this utterly insane course of actions, and was prepared to destroy everything he had helped to create. And so, the writer turned instead to the 'get out of jail free card', and quite possibly the worst plot device other than 'and then they woke up': 'a wizard did it'. Horus wasn't of rational mind, because he had been stabbed by a magic sword. Thus, there is no recourse to any kind of rational cause and effect in Horus' decision making. Horus emerges from the temple with dark circles around his eyes, and then sets about the business of killing his progeny and ripping the Imperium in half. How much more emotive, how much more powerful it might have been if we had been privy to Horus' own internal monologues about what he was doing? About how he agonised over the path he was taking, but knew that is was necessary to save mankind? Instead, his character is reduced to that of a two-dimensional comic book character, cackling while he plots the destruction of Terra.

To be honest I think it was by far the biggest let-down in the Horus Heresy series. We have seen why the other Primarchs fell; McNeil did a far more convincing job with both Fulgrim and Magnus in A Thousand Sons, and makes me wish he had come to False Gods later on, and presumably away from a strict word-count limit or deadline. So too ADB's handling of Lorgar, whose character was padded out with admirable aplomb. All of the traitor Primarchs were quite tragic characters, whose flawed decision making lead to their downfall. But the biggest one, the grand-daddy of them all and the reason why the 40k universe actually exists in the way that it does has been almost completely forgotten about - almost completely skated over, and what's even more puzzling is how everyone seems to have ignored what could have potentially been one of the most epic and emotional story arcs ever committed to print in the history of Games Workshop.

Remember when the Heresy was first written about, there was talk of the Heresy itself being based upon Milton's Paradise Lost. About how Satan decided that, hey, perhaps it is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven. But, all of the meat of that discussion, of philosophical argument and of rationalising, has been almost completely omitted from the 40k re-telling of that tale.

Just my own thoughts on this of course, and sorry to go off on one a bit!

I'd have to say that the GK codex entry where they kill SoB in order to survive is far worse than Crons with Blood Angels. Its obvious GW wants to change how the Necrons act and don't wish to portray them as the soulless machines we know them to be now. The Gk's killing SoB was pointless and just continues to prove that GW loves killing Sisters for no reason. =\

In the DE old codex there was a special character called kruellagh the vile. Her fluff was nothing special, and I know GW does a lot of this suggestive naming, but the fact that they named her as an allusion to a Disney character is just upsetting.

Dakkite Smuffles uses her model as Lady Malles

Red Comet wrote:I'd have to say that the GK codex entry where they kill SoB in order to survive is far worse than Crons with Blood Angels. Its obvious GW wants to change how the Necrons act and don't wish to portray them as the soulless machines we know them to be now. The Gk's killing SoB was pointless and just continues to prove that GW loves killing Sisters for no reason. =\

Did you actually read it? Because it is pretty clear about why they did it and what was happening.

Spoiler: They did it because if they did not they would have been consumed by the Bloodtide. Not to mention that it says right before that that most of the sisters are immediately corrupted and those that aren't are slaughtered. Then it goes on to say that after they turn their blades on the remainder they use their sacred blood in combination with other elements to anoint and protect themselves. A far cry from the 'pointless' act that you call out.

If you read the rest of the Codex, one of the themes is that the GK / Inquisition will do anything to stop Daemonic infestations and succeed.

Hell, on the next column of that page, an Inquisitor declares Exterminatus on a world with a demi-brotherhood of GK, 12+ regiments of guard, 2 companies of Silver Skulls, marines from the Crimson Paladins, Legion of Night and Eldar from Alaitoc because he disagreed with another Inquisitor's interest in an artifact. Killing all but a few hundred.

On the page before that Stern destroys all the evacuation shuttles from a planet because there is a chance that a Changeling was onboard, killing hundreds of thousands.

They will do anything. Not to mention that I'm sure if you were to ask the Sisters, they would have been okay with it, as the GKs were the only hope to stop the Daemonic infestation as the sisters had already failed and Martyrdom is kind of their thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When it comes down to it, what are the lives of a few Sisters of Battle compared to the billions of lives that will be lost if Daemons gain a hold on a world?

"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

Dante Brofists A Necron is also close.

There are plenty of things I could argue are close to being that bad when you analyse the metastory of 40K background, but those two are jaw-dropping even on a first reading.

Lara wrote:"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

So, did you actually read the codex?

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

So again. Try to read the fluff in question before misrepresenting it. They needed a talisman to protect them from the corrupting influence of the bloodtide, which had so far corrupted everything it touched. The only imperial force to even get close to the Basilica (and were unable to enter and stop the ritual) were the SOB. To actually enter it and get to the ritual, they would have to slog through the actual corruption, which would have turned even the GK (Keep in mind that sisters are very hard to corrupt and some of them were corrupted almost instantly and they didn't even get in the basilica.) So they did what they had to do.

That is, afterall, what we ask them to do. Do whatever is necessary to protect entire worlds from daemonic infestation. Which, again if you read the passage, they only had hours to forestall.

pretre wrote:

Lara wrote:"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

So, did you actually read the codex?

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

So again. Try to read the fluff in question before misrepresenting it. They needed a talisman to protect them from the corrupting influence of the bloodtide, which had so far corrupted everything it touched. The only imperial force to even get close to the Basilica (and were unable to enter and stop the ritual) were the SOB. To actually enter it and get to the ritual, they would have to slog through the actual corruption, which would have turned even the GK (Keep in mind that sisters are very hard to corrupt and some of them were corrupted almost instantly and they didn't even get in the basilica.) So they did what they had to do.

That is, afterall, what we ask them to do. Do whatever is necessary to protect entire worlds from daemonic infestation. Which, again if you read the passage, they only had hours to forestall.

IF the intent was to show that the GK will stop at nothing to achieve their ends then it has failed. If the intent was to show the similarities between heretical rites and allowable practice by the imperium, then, it also failed.

GKs need a talisman of purity? isn't aegis armour, decoration and fetishes, and undaunted faith in the BIg E enough?


BA's deciding that Necrons were their brothers in arms is also fail.




Bad writing is bad.

Mr. Burning wrote:IF the intent was to show that the GK will stop at nothing to achieve their ends then it has failed. If the intent was to show the similarities between heretical rites and allowable practice by the imperium, then, it also failed.

For you, it failed. I think it is a perfect example of doing anything. The GK and the Inquisition are exemplars of 'The Ends justify the Means'.

GKs need a talisman of purity? isn't aegis armour, decoration and fetishes, and undaunted faith in the BIg E enough?

Again, read the fluff. Everything touched by the Bloodtide is corrupted almost instantly. I'm sure the GK could have held off for a bit, but they needed some extra umph. With only hours left, they went with what they had.

Bad writing is bad.

Your opinion is your opinion. But you know what the important part of it is? It is just your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main problem with people not liking the GK fluff is that they cannot differentiate between not liking the direction that something takes and it being bad.

There is a big difference. I may not like the direction that the GK took when compared to prior works, but that does not make the writing bad.
It means... You guessed it, I didn't like the direction they took.

When it comes down to it, the game is Warhammer 40,000. It is unlikely that major moves will be made in the forward timeline. That means that additional histories will always be found and things will be changed in the continuity retroactively.

It has been like this since Rogue Trader. If you can't handle it, I suggest finding a new game, because it is not going to change.

That doesn't make it bad writing, however, it just means you don't like the fact that things are changing.

pretre wrote:

Lara wrote:"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

So, did you actually read the codex?

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

So again. Try to read the fluff in question before misrepresenting it. They needed a talisman to protect them from the corrupting influence of the bloodtide, which had so far corrupted everything it touched. The only imperial force to even get close to the Basilica (and were unable to enter and stop the ritual) were the SOB. To actually enter it and get to the ritual, they would have to slog through the actual corruption, which would have turned even the GK (Keep in mind that sisters are very hard to corrupt and some of them were corrupted almost instantly and they didn't even get in the basilica.) So they did what they had to do.

That is, afterall, what we ask them to do. Do whatever is necessary to protect entire worlds from daemonic infestation. Which, again if you read the passage, they only had hours to forestall.

Sorry, I hadn't read your post above mine, I just looked at the OP and responded to that. I have read yours now.

You make a fair argument; I (with respect) still don't agree in terms of it being narratively convincing. (Yes, I have read the Codex. No, I didn't buy it as I have no plans to collect GK, so I don't have it under my hand at this moment. Thanks for providing the text for reference above.) I've had Sisters but not played them since 3rd edition so I am familiar with their background etc. This is part of what pulled me up short about this piece. (I'll come back to that later).

There is a difference between misrepresentation and satirising a piece. I thought it was clear that I was satirising; I apologise if that wasn't clear. The basic reason I don't like it, in that I don't find it narratively convincing, is still there for me. Even if we agree to proceed from your point that the blood of the Sisters itself was necessary, why did they need all of it? The piece doesn't give any internal answer as to why the GKs had to kill all the Sisters outright rather than take a certain amount of blood for ceremonial anointing purposes? Even mixed with oil, how much blood could they actually have needed? I appreciate religious observance may well be a bit different in the 41st millennium, but any time I have been anointed, I have not required pints of the stuff. The text above states the blood is a "talisman". Talismans by their nature and definition don't require to be full physical shields. You don't have to use eight pints of a talisman. A little would do! So the text requires a justification for why all the blood is needed. There isn't one, which leads me on to my next issue with this text.

The reason this piece annoys me is that we never get a clearly argued rationale for the act of killing all the Sisters. Let's use an inappropriate analogy: the story of Goldilocks. Even toddlers can grasp the rationale behind what Goldilocks does in the Three Bears' home: she's hungry so she takes food, she's tired so she sleeps in the bed. She does what's required to meet her needs. If Goldilocks also emptied Baby Bear's piggy bank, smoked all of Papa Bear's cigars and sniffed Mama Bear's underwear, even little kids would realise that her actions were not justified by any need she faced in the story. She went too far. I consider that, purely on the text given in the Codex, the GKs appear to have gone too far in slaying all the Sisters. I understand that you are saying the nature of the threat of the Bloodtide is such that it justifies any measures taken by the GKs. Even if that is so, in order to make that argument and achieve narrative justification, you are having to read outside of the text. You are having to contextualise externally. And in a self-contained fantasy setting, that's bad writing. The effect of the missing justification is actually made worse in this piece by the choice of forces. The Sisters are an Imperial force; a very loyal one, and by admission in the text of this piece, hard to corrupt. The whole point of this piece is that some of them remained uncorrupted - why use the blood otherwise?

So this is the scenario we're left with: loyal Imperial forces have proven (by remaining uncorrupted) their devotion, faith, purity. Their Imperial allies who are supposed to be the very embodiment of these virtues, turn up and... kill them all. That's not a standard narrative development in the 40K background. It represents such a departure from the standard - and from what we have been led to expect from the existing background - that if anything, it requires a stronger, clearer reason given in the text for that particular course of action. And this reason is what's entirely missing. Why kill them? Why not leave them alive, even if they "need" to be bled? This is my problem: that issue is never answered in the text. That's what makes it bad writing. It leaves the reader trying to make up their own justification for the action; and that speculation can take some, er, unpopular forms. (See the vigorous discussion re GKs and Khorne.)

Anyway, your good post deserved a rather better thought-out explanation of my thinking from me, so there it is. My original post wasn't directed at yours, so apologies if it came off that way. No confrontation intended. (Mat Ward - bringing people all over the world together )

pretre wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:IF the intent was to show that the GK will stop at nothing to achieve their ends then it has failed. If the intent was to show the similarities between heretical rites and allowable practice by the imperium, then, it also failed.

For you, it failed. I think it is a perfect example of doing anything. The GK and the Inquisition are exemplars of 'The Ends justify the Means'.

GKs need a talisman of purity? isn't aegis armour, decoration and fetishes, and undaunted faith in the BIg E enough?

Again, read the fluff. Everything touched by the Bloodtide is corrupted almost instantly. I'm sure the GK could have held off for a bit, but they needed some extra umph. With only hours left, they went with what they had.

Bad writing is bad.

Your opinion is your opinion. But you know what the important part of it is? It is just your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main problem with people not liking the GK fluff is that they cannot differentiate between not liking the direction that something takes and it being bad.

There is a big difference. I may not like the direction that the GK took when compared to prior works, but that does not make the writing bad.
It means... You guessed it, I didn't like the direction they took.

When it comes down to it, the game is Warhammer 40,000. It is unlikely that major moves will be made in the forward timeline. That means that additional histories will always be found and things will be changed in the continuity retroactively.

It has been like this since Rogue Trader. If you can't handle it, I suggest finding a new game, because it is not going to change.

That doesn't make it bad writing, however, it just means you don't like the fact that things are changing.

Calm down sonny jim,

I believe I am free to express my opinion, as are you.

I can appreciate the game without having to like poor storytelling.

Lara says it more eloquently than I could,

Lara wrote:So this is the scenario we're left with: loyal Imperial forces have proven (by remaining uncorrupted) their devotion, faith, purity. Their Imperial allies who are supposed to be the very embodiment of these virtues, turn up and... kill them all. That's not a standard narrative development in the 40K background. It represents such a departure from the standard - and from what we have been led to expect from the existing background - that if anything, it requires a stronger, clearer reason given in the text for that particular course of action. And this reason is what's entirely missing. Why kill them? Why not leave them alive, even if they "need" to be bled? This is my problem: that issue is never answered in the text. That's what makes it bad writing. It leaves the reader trying to make up their own justification for the action; and that speculation can take some, er, unpopular forms. (See the vigorous discussion re GKs and Khorne.)

Thank you for actually thinking about things and responding intelligently. I find the Ward-derp frustrating.

So I don't mean to ignore most of your post, but I think this paragraph is the essence of the issue. You find the GK's actions jarring and out of context for the universe; I contend that these are very much part of the universe.

I would actually argue that sacrificing the loyal and innocent is one of the central story themes in a lot of the continuity and tenets of the Imperium.

- The Astronomican: Loyal psykers are fed by the thousands to 'feed the Astronomican' what is done with them is rather unclear. Who decides why?

- Sisters of Battle: The sisters have rules surrounding sacrifice and Martyrdom for exactly this reason.

- Space Marine recruiting: How many recruits to make one marine? Why can't they find a better way? Is this the best way to recruit? No, but it is what needs to be done to get things done.

- Imperial Guard: How many bodies into the meat grinder? How many fronts involve loyal commanders sacrificing millions of guardsmen to drown the enemy in their blood? Read Gaunt's Ghosts or any of the guard novels. They are full of disdain for high command and the way they run battles. Is it the best way? No, but it is what needs to be done to get things done.

- Inquisitor Karamazov: Codex - Witchhunters.
'His deeds were replete with the rigid application of the Imperial Creed and though some within the Inquisition criticized his inflexibility and claimed that he had sent thousands of innocents to their deaths, Karamazov would reply with Judge Traggat's famous maxim that claims of innocence meant nothing; serving only to prove a foolish lack of caution.'
'There is no such thing as a please of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."
Heck, Karamazov's whole schtick is that it is okay to sacrifice any number of innocents for the greater good.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Burning wrote:
Calm down sonny jim,

I believe I am free to express my opinion, as are you.

I can appreciate the game without having to like poor storytelling.

Lara says it more eloquently than I could,

Thanks for adding to the conversation.

Re: the Bloodtide.

I think we all know what really happened.

"The Bloodtide approached. We had no choice but to create talismans from the blood of the Sisters of Battle to defend ourselves!"

"Where did you get the blood?"

"Ummmm. . . we uhhhhh. . . We killed the Sisters of Battle! Yeah, that's it!"

"Because, Brother Spessmarinus, if I recall correctly, the Ritual of Warding specifies that moon-blood should be used, as it is blood of life, and not blood of death. I'm not certain, but does that not imply. . ."

"WE. KILLED. THE. SISTERS. AND. USED. THAT. BLOOD. That is the official story, and we will stick to it."

". . ."

themocaw wrote:"WE. KILLED. THE. SISTERS. AND. USED. THAT. BLOOD. That is the official story, and we will stick to it."

And because no discussion of Sisters can be had without going there...

/facepalm

pretre wrote:So I don't mean to ignore most of your post, but I think this paragraph is the essence of the issue. You find the GK's actions jarring and out of context for the universe; I contend that these are very much part of the universe.

I would actually argue that sacrificing the loyal and innocent is one of the central story themes in a lot of the continuity and tenets of the Imperium.

I snipped the quote here because I agree with your point here re sacrifice of innocents in full. I am not, nor would I, take issue with this. Your example of the Astronomican is the first one that sprung to my mind, too.

My issue with how this piece is written isn't the content of the piece in terms of the story it tells. I know that's the problem a lot of people have with it - the "OMG THE GREY NITEZ WUD NEVAR KILL THE SISTERZ" - I don't have that problem. I don't have that emotional or intellectual investment in the 40K universe. To a certain extent, I don't really care what Ward writes (on a tangent, I agree with you: if GW won't move the storyline on, the writers are going to have to get more creative in the "present day" setting), as long as he writes it in such a fashion that he gives a good reason for why his characters do what they do. That's a basic enough element of storytelling that I teach it to kids under 12 in creative writing. You've got to have a reason. Even if Ward gave a reason which (in my, or anyone else's opinion!) was rubbish, it would still be a reason. My problem with this is he isn't answering a very basic question: why are character group A doing action X to character group B.

This piece doesn't, in my honest opinion, explain action X. It doesn't say why the Sisters had to die. If he'd even written "because they needed all the blood they could get", or "they did it for the lolz", or "they looked at our shiny armour funny", it would be a reason. Maybe not a great one (that's a matter of personal taste), but my major objection to this piece would be addressed. It is a technical objection. It's just such a glaring technical fault to me that I can't get past it.

I fully understand (and welcome!) writers in the 40K universe doing something a little different. Doing something a little unexpected. But good work requires good justification for your characters to act the way they do. Anything can be assimilated into the context of the 40K universe, if the writer gives good, narratively compelling reasons for it to happen. This - to me - hasn't happened here. And I think (just floating an opinion here) that this might be why so many people who've read this piece are willing to reject it as a part of the metanarrative out of hand.

(This conversation is becoming quite civil. We are still talking about Ward, yeah? )

Lara wrote:This piece doesn't, in my honest opinion, explain action X. It doesn't say why the Sisters had to die. If he'd even written "because they needed all the blood they could get", or "they did it for the lolz", or "they looked at our shiny armour funny", it would be a reason. Maybe not a great one (that's a matter of personal taste), but my major objection to this piece would be addressed. It is a technical objection. It's just such a glaring technical fault to me that I can't get past it.

Fair enough.

I think one of the issues is that people expect more from the little 'Date - Name of Incident' blurbs. They are supposed to be just that, blurbs and you have to fill in a little.

They are like when other RPGs would give you 'adventure seeds'. They would provide you with the start or middle or part of a story and it is up to you to explore the rest.

I don't know if it is that I don't expect the blurbs in these sections to be whole stories and maybe that is the difference. My mind automatically fills in the rest based on my own assumptions of the material.

- The GK did what they did because they had to.
- Tycho did what he did because he is weary and longs for death.
- Wazdakka did what he did because he is crazy and that allows him to ignore all laws of reality.


That being said, for the Bloodtide blurb, I kind of just assumed that there wasn't time and it went something like this:

"Brother Captain, we have about 119 minutes before the Bloodtide ritual is complete. I estimate it will take us 30 minutes to prepare the necessary ritual components to anoint ourselves and prepare the wards that will stave off the corruption."
"Thank you, Brother Librarian. The time it would take to explain to the sisters is too precious. Do what needs to be done."

"Just daub some of the blood of the innocent ones on your face"

"This does not wode well. . ."

"Then cover your armor too!"

pretre wrote:I think one of the issues is that people expect more from the little 'Date - Name of Incident' blurbs. They are supposed to be just that, blurbs and you have to fill in a little.

They are like when other RPGs would give you 'adventure seeds'. They would provide you with the start or middle or part of a story and it is up to you to explore the rest.

I don't know that I expect the blurbs in these sections to be whole stories and maybe that is the difference. My mind automatically fills in the rest based on my own assumptions of the material.

Fair point, well made. Perhaps I/others expect too much.

kirsanth wrote:"Just daub some of the blood of the innocent ones on your face"

"This does not wode well. . ."

"Then cover your armor too!"

Ahem.

GK Codex wrote:The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lara wrote:Fair point, well made. Perhaps I/others expect too much.

I think that GW is stuck between a rock and a hard place in a lot of respects and nothing they ever do will be good enough.
- They have a wildly successful universe, with fans that are utterly devoted to the material and many of which who know it inside and out.
- They have 20-30 years of material from numerous sources and mediums that covers thousands upon thousands of pages.
- They are a publicly traded, for-profit business that must balance nerdery and the bottom line, including increasing stock-holder profit.
- They have a lot of employees who geniunely love the universe, the game and the models, but sometimes have to do things to keep themselves in food and clothing.

I'm not saying they don't f'up now and again, but everytime they so much as sneeze everyone reads the worst into it and then talks about how that sneeze is the worst thing since the last major natural disaster. Be realistic, not everything is a catastrophe and GW isn't constantly trying to poo on your parade.

pretre wrote:

kirsanth wrote:"Just daub some of the blood of the innocent ones on your face"

"This does not wode well. . ."

"Then cover your armor too!"

Ahem.

GK Codex wrote:The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons.

Err. . . "Then cover your armor and weapons instead!" ?

heh

...Did they actually write that in the GK codex!? I thought that was the Skulltakers (The CSM chapter not the Daemon Character) schtick!

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:...Did they actually write that in the GK codex!? I thought that was the Skulltakers (The CSM chapter not the Daemon Character) schtick!

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

That sorta makes more sense in context, but still whacked out for GKs.

The BA and Cron alliance is hardly worth the amount of hate it gets. It's barely a paragraph, and its so vague. It doesn't say explicitly that they fought side by side, only that they stopped killing each other. Quit exaggerating guys.

"The idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside a distasteful one" is just as worthy of mockery as "The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons"--even with cotext.


ymmv

Alongside and side by side are different, haha.

Anyway, I dont think it was meant to be interpreted that way. I think it was more of a ceasefire. A poor choice of words on the authors part.

Oh, agreed. But then, we do like a wee moan to blow off steam, most of us, and our toy soldiers are a fairly harmless thing to moan about. Maybe that's just me. I am the casualest of the casual gamers.

I don't (couldn't ever; I suck) play competitively, so changes to the top-tier metagame don't affect me; therefore I probably pay less attention to rules controversies than I should. I like cool models and good writing. Especially good writing. Other people look for different things from the hobby. And no, GW do not have the resources, staff, time or corporate priorities to keep everyone happy. So they have to skimp on a few things here and there. Currently the in-game (in terms of Codex stuff) fluff material seems to be getting... a little economized on in terms of time/effort. This makes me sad. It also makes me sad that there is no Tervigon model, because I want one, and I don't like how the Chapterhouse conversion kit looks.

But, as you rightly point out, I have to, and have, got over it. At the end of the day, if it made me miffed off enough, I'd quit the hobby. If their corporate strategy miffed off enough people, they'd go out of business. Profits are up: looks like most of us have got over it. They will do things we don't like. (Cruddace nerfed my Carnifexes I got over it and bought two more)

I do understand the nerdrage you're referring to in terms of background though. Since childhood, I held a near-religious reverence for Tolkien's works. And then Peter Jackson... I left the cinema in tears an hour into Fellowship of the Ring. It took me five years and numerous attempts to watch all three of those films all the way through. I will never do that again. /understatement. So I do understand why people get upset over 40K narrative changes. I know it really matters to a lot of people. If you're a company dealing in any sort of narrative "thing" that people are really into, you're going to get blowback when you do something they don't like. I guess GW are old and ugly enough to take it on the chin by now.

Except context is everything, because the Gehenna Campaign is led by Dante, the oldest living marine, who it is said:
"And yet for all his success, or perhaps because of it, Dante has grown weary of his burdens. He has lived far longer than he should, and the burden of centuries grows ever weightier. Only one thing prevents Dante succumbing to ennui..."

If any BA would be likely to walk away in an instance like that, it would be Dante.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't plausible or good writing. It just means you don't like it.

Potato_God wrote:Somehow, In my heart, I hoped something non-ward related would come up. I am a fool.

do you guys remember the worst non-ward related fluff ever?

Squat + Inquisitor + mutant assassin + singing navigator = WHAT!?!?!?!!?

@Lara: I can't believe you didn't like the LotR movies. Our civilised conversation is over.

Mr. Burning wrote:

pretre wrote:

Lara wrote:"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

So, did you actually read the codex?

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

So again. Try to read the fluff in question before misrepresenting it. They needed a talisman to protect them from the corrupting influence of the bloodtide, which had so far corrupted everything it touched. The only imperial force to even get close to the Basilica (and were unable to enter and stop the ritual) were the SOB. To actually enter it and get to the ritual, they would have to slog through the actual corruption, which would have turned even the GK (Keep in mind that sisters are very hard to corrupt and some of them were corrupted almost instantly and they didn't even get in the basilica.) So they did what they had to do.

That is, afterall, what we ask them to do. Do whatever is necessary to protect entire worlds from daemonic infestation. Which, again if you read the passage, they only had hours to forestall.

IF the intent was to show that the GK will stop at nothing to achieve their ends then it has failed. If the intent was to show the similarities between heretical rites and allowable practice by the imperium, then, it also failed.

GKs need a talisman of purity? isn't aegis armour, decoration and fetishes, and undaunted faith in the BIg E enough?


BA's deciding that Necrons were their brothers in arms is also fail.




Bad writing is bad.

Agreed. GK have always been the "purest of the pure" the whole blood of nuns with guns thing is:
1) they are purer than the SOB's so it wouldn't work and might weaken them in this regards actually;
2) its kind of a weird reference shtick. Blood of nuns is weird and disconcertig on its face and also has weird vibes on the women blood thing...

But after having read it as way more annoyed by the GK's just going through major named demons without much a sweat. It feels like bad fanfiction.

Potato_God wrote:I've seen alot of Matt Ward hate (deservedly so), and it got me thinking. What do you think was the darkest moment in 40k fluff? Black Library stuff counts as well.

The day it was all written

Agreed, but also true is this:

pretre wrote:Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is plausible or good writing. It just means you like it.

I think both are ridiculous and worthy of mockery. Like the purer than the guy that is purer than the guys that are absolutely pure.

Others disagree, which is what makes forums fun for discussion.

kirsanth wrote:Agreed, but also true is this:

pretre wrote:Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is plausible or good writing. It just means you like it.

I think both are ridiculous and worthy of mockery. Like the purer than the guy that is purer than the guys that are absolutely pure.

Others disagree, which is what makes forums fun for discussion.

I never said it was good writing. I just think that the constant 'OMG WARD IS THE DEVILS' derp is ridiculous. It's a freakin' codex, it isn't going to be War and Peace.

Goddard wrote:A poor choice of words on the authors part.

Without sparking confrontation, is there general agreement that if Ward did a little more proofreading, or whoever edits him took a much harder editorial line (and I do mean in terms of technical stuff, like "Use moar fancier wordz"), people might soil on his work a little less?

I too have written things that were unclear, open to misinterpretation or outright dumb when I read over them again. I think more reading-over by his GW fluffmasters would do no harm. Quality control of the product applies to more than just miniatures, eh?

Lara wrote:
Without sparking confrontation, is there general agreement that if Ward did a little more proofreading, or whoever edits him took a much harder editorial line (and I do mean in terms of technical stuff, like "Use moar fancier wordz"), people might soil on his work a little less?

I too have written things that were unclear, open to misinterpretation or outright dumb when I read over them again. I think more reading-over by his GW fluffmasters would do no harm. Quality control of the product applies to more than just miniatures, eh?

I can agree, but that is just because this kind of thing rarely suffers from too little editing.

That being said, we could have god's own editor look over every inch of the book and make changes and, for the same reasons I listed before, I guarantee that people would take exception with it and call it the worst thing since the invention of pain.

I'm tempted to go back into the newgroup search and look for flamewars started over the 2nd edition Sisters of Battle codex and how bad it was or the 3rd edition space marine codex and how it destroyed the fluff. I bet they are there.

pretre wrote:I never said it was good writing. I just think that the constant 'OMG WARD IS THE DEVILS' derp is ridiculous. It's a freakin' codex, it isn't going to be War and Peace.

I do not think anyone really expects something of that quality, but then again, I do not think anyone expected the quality of the pieces referenced, either.

That any of it needs to be defended/excuses/rationalized/explained/ignored as often as it is certainly mades me think it was not well done.

Then I read the pieces and agreed.

pretre wrote:@Lara: I can't believe you didn't like the LotR movies. Our civilised conversation is over.

Like them? Like? I'm not joking about the actual tears, you know.

It was a key lesson for me in life. When something is that much of SRS BIZNESS to you, you are going to hate anyone else's vision of it. I refuse to watch Mamma Mia for that reason. (Yes, Abba are also SRS BIZNESS to me. And Star Trek: Nemesis is noncanon to me.)

There were jokes in it. No jokes in my Tolkien. And Legolas was BLOND. (Please, for the love of the Emperor, do not get me started on why that riles me so)

The weird thing is, Jackson's Heavenly Creatures is an all time favourite of mine.

Er. Am I derailing the thread here? Shall I write a quick one-shot fanfic about a Culexus and a wet-behind-the-ears Guardswoman recruit? I can do it in the style of Matt Ward?

kirsanth wrote:I do not think anyone really expects something of that quality, but then again, I do not think anyone expected the quality of the pieces referenced, either.

That any of it needs to be defended/excuses/rationalized/explained/ignored as often as it is certainly mades me think it was not well done.

Then I read the pieces and agreed.

Name a codex that hasn't been the source of great controversy and had to be defended/excused/rationalized/ignored and I'll show you a failed one. Every codex has had this happen because, as you said earlier, it is a discussion board and that is what you do. I'd be more worried if there was no discussion.

Heck, on the internet controversy is success.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd just prefer if we moved on to a new subject because the Ward is da ebils one is a little overdone.

pretre wrote:

kirsanth wrote:I do not think anyone really expects something of that quality, but then again, I do not think anyone expected the quality of the pieces referenced, either.

That any of it needs to be defended/excuses/rationalized/explained/ignored as often as it is certainly mades me think it was not well done.

Then I read the pieces and agreed.

Name a codex that hasn't been the source of great controversy and had to be defended/excused/rationalized/ignored and I'll show you a failed one. Every codex has had this happen because, as you said earlier, it is a discussion board and that is what you do. I'd be more worried if there was no discussion.

Heck, on the internet controversy is success.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd just prefer if we moved on to a new subject because the Ward is da ebils one is a little overdone.

Craftworld Eldar

Without sparking confrontation, is there general agreement that if Ward did a little more proofreading, or whoever edits him took a much harder editorial line (and I do mean in terms of technical stuff, like "Use moar fancier wordz"), people might soil on his work a little less?

I too have written things that were unclear, open to misinterpretation or outright dumb when I read over them again. I think more reading-over by his GW fluffmasters would do no harm. Quality control of the product applies to more than just miniatures, eh?

I think EVERY GW author should carefully contemplate what they are including in a book, not just Ward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, I agree.

Goddard wrote:

Without sparking confrontation, is there general agreement that if Ward did a little more proofreading, or whoever edits him took a much harder editorial line (and I do mean in terms of technical stuff, like "Use moar fancier wordz"), people might soil on his work a little less?

I too have written things that were unclear, open to misinterpretation or outright dumb when I read over them again. I think more reading-over by his GW fluffmasters would do no harm. Quality control of the product applies to more than just miniatures, eh?

I think EVERY GW author should carefully contemplate what they are including in a book, not just Ward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, I agree.

Oh, agreed re other authors. I just singled him out as he does seem to receive the lion's share of the, er, constructive feedback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

trewbarton wrote:Craftworld Eldar

My memory isn't quite all there at present; please help. Is this the Codex that allowed the Phil Kelly Ulthwe build of doom? I remember there being a large amount of internet squealing about that build at the time.

trewbarton wrote:
Craftworld Eldar

Good try:

Date: 2000/06/21
Subject: Re: Craftworld Eldar Codex Review
Paul Perry (mad...@uswest.net) wrote:

: Ok,
: I have had 4 days to go through it, overall it greatly changes the balance
: of the army lists.
: Features:
: Full rules and new army lists for the following craftworlds: Iyanden,
: Saim-Hann, Alaitoc, Biel-Tan and Ulthwe'.
:
Should have known GW couldn't stick to balanced armies and games for too
long... I just find this new Craftworld Eldar book to be pretty silly,
because it pretty much makes legal all the armies that the army building
system was designed to limit... Of course it is GW and it is 40k, so I
guess I shouldn't be *too* surprised...





Newsgroups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer
From: ezekiel4...@aol.comnospam (Borderline fanboy)
Date: 2000/06/21
Subject: bs stats ( Codex Craftworld Eldar rant )
You know, everytime a new codex comes out we get the same crap about kill
ratios and percentages. " Swordwind army sucks because your Dark Reapers won't
last long against 4 hvy bolters because........." and so on.
For feths sake, do you all just line your troops up 24" away from one another
on an open board and shoot at each other?
Let's just start rolling marbles. As long as they are GW marbles, of course.


http://groups.google.com/groups/search?safe=on&q=codex+craftworld+eldar&btnG=Search&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2000&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2001&as_drrb=b&sitesearch=

My main annoyance with the whole Bloodtide thing is just my continued frustration with the way that GW tends to handle Sisters of Battle. While the SPESS MEHREENS are the unstoppable juggernauts that kill everything and come away without a scratch, it seems like every time that the Sisters appear in the fluff they're being annihilated, corrupted, massacred, or betrayed. The whole Bloodtide thing is just the nail in the coffin. They can't even get a break from their own allies. And it's not even a mercy kill or a sacrifice on the Sisters' part. It's outright murder. The Grey Knights need a talisman to protect them from the Bloodtide, so they murder a bunch of their own supposed allies to get one.

Honestly, if I'd been writing that bit of fluff, I'd have kept everything up until that point, then perhaps said something like, "Seeing the failure of the Sisters of Battle, the Grey Knights determine that a talisman of purity is required to protect them from the Bloodtide. Brother Laertes is chosen by the drawing of lots, and dies to a single stroke by Brother Captain Cristof's Nemesis Force Weapon. The remaining Grey Knights mix the innocent blood thus spilled with blessed oils and use it to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption. To this day, the surviving members of that squad wear red gauntlets upon their right hands to remind themselves that Brother Laertes' blood fights on in their own sword arms."

Yes, yes, the Sisters are much put upon.

I am also a sisters player and have been since Codex: Chapter Approved. That is kind of their thing and always has been; they are the martyrs and the holy/pure ones.

When it comes down to it though, 1 GK is worth a lot more than any number of sisters of battle. Read the induction process and what it takes to make one GK. A little bit harder than the sisters process. Add to that the fact that all those sisters are going to die in a couple minutes when the Bloodtide goes off and I'd go choppy choppy too.

themocaw wrote:it seems like every time that the Sisters appear in the fluff they're being annihilated, corrupted, massacred, or betrayed

This I totally agree with. Whilst I am joyful that Phil Kelly is rumoured to be working on our dear Sisters, part of me did want to see what a Sister special character by Mat Ward would be like. I figured she probably wouldn't be getting massacred or betrayed any time soon.

Still, on the upside, if the theory of Codex escalation holds true, the girls are going to be enormous badasses. With plastic models. Which I will buy by the armload.

Oh and the Bloodtide has been around for a bit, going back to the 5th ed rulebook. Unfortunately named, but they can't giggle proof everything.

The BA-Necron Brofist is up there.
The new GK massacre of the SoB is too, as is Goto's IG-Termie bromance, Termies flipping off of rhinos, and the magical rhino that became a land raider then a razorback.

5 bucks C.S. Goto and Matt Ward are the same dude.

pretre wrote: they are the martyrs

No! No more martyrdom! We want... a really big tank! With really big weapons! And more flamers! For free!

Lara wrote:

pretre wrote: they are the martyrs

No! No more martyrdom! We want... a really big tank! With really big weapons! And more flamers! For free!

(Sarcasm, but scarily what I see a lot of the time.)

I do not want femmarines. No thank you.

Martyrdom, the ecclesiarchy and the faux-catholicism are what make the sisters unique. I would like to keep it or at least something else that makes us more than uparmored and downgunned guard or marines with mammaries.

pretre wrote:Martyrdom, the ecclesiarchy and the faux-catholicism are what make the sisters unique. I would like to keep it or at least something else that makes us more than uparmored and downgunned guard or marines with mammaries.

Faith Points? To stay, or to go?

Better start a new thread, Lara. We're heading right off the rails.

pretre wrote:I am also a sisters player and have been since Codex: Chapter Approved. That is kind of their thing and always has been; they are the martyrs and the holy/pure ones.

The problem is that the writers of the fluff confuse martyrdom with victimization. Victimization is what other people do to you. Martyrdom is a choice you make yourself. Hell, the entire Bloodtide thing could be solved if the Sisters, realizing what's going on, throw themselves on their own swords to buy the Grey Knights a chance, and the GKs at least make some remembrance of their sacrifice.

themocaw wrote:
The problem is that the writers of the fluff confuse martyrdom with victimization. Victimization is what other people do to you. Martyrdom is a choice you make yourself. Hell, the entire Bloodtide thing could be solved if the Sisters, realizing what's going on, throw themselves on their own swords to buy the Grey Knights a chance, and the GKs at least make some remembrance of their sacrifice.

Sure, but the passage is specifically light on detail. For all you know, they did throw themselves on the GK's blades. But it is a blurb on the Date / Incident page. Meant to be just that, a flavorful blurb. People read into it like it is a lost passage from the bible. You are meant to go to other material to fill in the gaps. Just like when it said 'Stern defeats the red talon' in one sentence. Was that all the happened? Of course not.

apart from anything matt ward writes I have never been happy with calgar strangling an avatar...why does a daemon need to breath like a human being?

Oh and just so we have it:

"Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption"

pretre wrote:. . . the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle.

This is the line that makes me cringe. The whole thrust of the line implies that all action and decisions were made by the Grey Knights. Nothing in there about assent or consultation on the part of the Sisters. The FIRST thing the Grey Knights do is turn THEIR blades on the surviving Sisters of Battle.

So yeah, long story short: I think this is the worst piece of fluff that GW has ever written. It turns the Grey Knights from grim soldiers who do what they must because only they can, to outright murderers who coldly murder their own allies without a second thought, simply because they feel it is necessary.

themocaw wrote:

pretre wrote:. . . the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle.

So yeah, long story short: I think this is the worst piece of fluff that GW has ever written. It turns the Grey Knights from grim soldiers who do what they must because only they can, to outright murderers who coldly murder their own allies without a second thought, simply because they feel it is necessary.

I think the difference between us is that I think the GK are still grim soldiers who do what they must and have clarity of purpose and you don't.

The reason the 'the first act' doesn't bother me is because I know they wouldn't do it if it wasn't necessary. You don't have that faith in the GK's. They quickly assess the situation with decades of training and experience and know that they have no choice. No reason to wring their hands over it or be sentimental; they just do it.

Again, the fluff isn't bad, you just don't like how it portrays the GK and their actions. I don't like it either, but I understand why it is necessary. The point being made is that nothing is too much to stop Daemons as is made numerous times in the book with much worse examples of blatant death and destruction. People just don't like it in this case because it happens to involve SOB.

I think we can actually prove that there is worse fluff (Goto, etc) that is more poorly written (what about that DA story where they land on a place that might as well be called ColdWarEarth).

Stella Cadente wrote:apart from anything matt ward writes I have never been happy with calgar strangling an avatar...why does a daemon need to breath like a human being?

Those are two different problems. Most daemons do need to breathe. Once they're in real space, they have real biology.

Of course, the Avatar does not.

I think what really pisses me off most at the moment is the whole thing with the GK Grand Master carving something into Mortarion's heart.

Not just because I don't see how a Grey Knight could be so powerful.

Not just because I play Death Guard and build myself a Mortarion model.

But mostly because they do it in like one friggin'n line of text!!! "And then Daigo carved the name in Mortarion's heart."

...

WHAT?! HOW?! WITH WHAT?! WHY DID NOBODY RIP HIS HEAD OFF FOR THAT ONE?!

The Necron/BA temporary truce thing only seems stupid to people who haven't read the fluff sections of the full 5th edition rulebook. Necrons are very different in modern canon than the way that they were once portrayed.

Anung Un Rama wrote:I think what really pisses me off most at the moment is the whole thing with the GK Grand Master carving something into Mortarion's heart.

Not just because I don't see how a Grey Knight could be so powerful.

Not just because I play Death Guard and build myself a Mortarion model.

But mostly because they do it in like one friggin'n line of text!!! "And then Daigo carved the name in Mortarion's heart."

...

WHAT?! HOW?! WITH WHAT?! WHY DID NOBODY RIP HIS HEAD OFF FOR THAT ONE?!

Mortarion's latest physical body was already dead when that happened. That's how.

Goddard wrote:The BA and Cron alliance is hardly worth the amount of hate it gets. It's barely a paragraph, and its so vague. It doesn't say explicitly that they fought side by side, only that they stopped killing each other. Quit exaggerating guys.

It only takes a paragraph to express an idea that is completely at odds with how most people think of Space Marines as adherents to the Imperial ideology. What it does say is that they could not stomach fighting their recent allies, this is what many have a problem with. I can understand the Blood Angels withdrawing from a hopeless fight, but feeling anything other than hatred for the wretched xenos is just not in keeping with the feel of the setting. This isn't a matter of honor it's a matter of preserving the Imperium of Man which the crons are all about wrecking, no self respecting Astartes would let them go about their business.

Grey Templar wrote:at least the GKs killing the SoB made some sense

Wait, what? Lol.

Goddard wrote:The BA and Cron alliance is hardly worth the amount of hate it gets. It's barely a paragraph, and its so vague. It doesn't say explicitly that they fought side by side, only that they stopped killing each other. Quit exaggerating guys.

I don't really hate the BA Necron Bromance all that much (however, much of that could be attributed to how much I love the associated Image Macro that's been floating around).

I think, if anything, they shouldn't have said the BA "would feel bad" for attacking their erstwhile allies; I think they should of just said that they should've decided the casualites would be too high to fight anymore, and just left for tactical reasons, not out of robo-kindness.

Deep Throat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:at least the GKs killing the SoB made some sense

Wait, what? Lol.

read the whole paragraph and the entire codex.


their actions fit with the fluff of GKs doing ANYTHING to stop the forces of chaos.

Grey Templar wrote:read the whole paragraph and the entire codex.

VERY NO!!!!

Anything but that!




Editing to add:
Aww, way less fun on a new page.

Gridge wrote: I can understand the Blood Angels withdrawing from a hopeless fight, but feeling anything other than hatred for the wretched xenos is just not in keeping with the feel of the setting.

Except that's Imperial dogma and the Space Marines are separate from that. They don't worship the Emperor as a god either, and the Imperium lets them get away with that.

The whole old ones thing really annoys me.

Why do they feel the need to have some god like beings going around creating races. Whats wrong with evolution that we already know took place.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

Whats wrong with all powerful being(s)?

Daston wrote:The whole old ones thing really annoys me.

Why do they feel the need to have some god like beings going around creating races. Whats wrong with evolution that we already know took place.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

my explanation: Rick Priestly is a science-hating Creationist.

Prove me wrong.

Potato_God wrote:

Daston wrote:The whole old ones thing really annoys me.

Why do they feel the need to have some god like beings going around creating races. Whats wrong with evolution that we already know took place.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

my explanation: Rick Priestly is a science-hating Creationist.

Prove me wrong.

He hates competitiveness so he must be.

Crowe's fluff is pretty bad. I mean like HAI GUYZ THIS IZ MY SPESHUL GUY BUT HE'S TOTALLY NOT ME!!! LISTEN TO HOW HE CAN BEAT EVERYONE UP! bad.

Gridge wrote:

Goddard wrote:The BA and Cron alliance is hardly worth the amount of hate it gets. It's barely a paragraph, and its so vague. It doesn't say explicitly that they fought side by side, only that they stopped killing each other. Quit exaggerating guys.

It only takes a paragraph to express an idea that is completely at odds with how most people think of Space Marines as adherents to the Imperial ideology. What it does say is that they could not stomach fighting their recent allies, this is what many have a problem with. I can understand the Blood Angels withdrawing from a hopeless fight, but feeling anything other than hatred for the wretched xenos is just not in keeping with the feel of the setting. This isn't a matter of honor it's a matter of preserving the Imperium of Man which the crons are all about wrecking, no self respecting Astartes would let them go about their business.

Care to paraphrase this fluff for those without the hardcover?

The entirety of the Sons of Malice fluff.

Yes, I still consider Sons of Malice to be worse fluff even than Matt Ward's BA and GK fluff failures.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gridge wrote: I can understand the Blood Angels withdrawing from a hopeless fight, but feeling anything other than hatred for the wretched xenos is just not in keeping with the feel of the setting.

Except that's Imperial dogma and the Space Marines are separate from that. They don't worship the Emperor as a god either, and the Imperium lets them get away with that.

The attitude towards the Emperor varies a bit chapter to chapter but the hatred for xenos, to my knowledge, is consistent with the rest of the Imperium (I haven't read the SW codex but I'm assuming their is nothing in there along these lines). I am aware, however, that temporary alliances have been forged from time to time with Eldar but they seem to be the exception to the rule (even though these seem to always end in blood with some marine going on about how they never should have trusted the treacherous xenos). Basically, it is the job of the marines to battle the enemies of the Imperium of Man, and the xenos are the enemy.

I also hate the whole reason for Horus turning to Chaos; a result of him being stabbed by a magic sword. The whole reason for the destruction of the Emperor and his armies, the creation of the entire setting of the 40k universe, and ultimately the destruction of the human race. And why did it happen? Because 'a wizard did it'. I can make a much more in depth reason of why I think this is the biggest failing in GW's history of writing background, but I don't want to bore people with it (and kill the thread, which inevitably happens )

this is Cheese!

The first 2 HH books were awesome! how can you say that?
It was a great idea and DAN ABBNET IS THE BEST (better than Ward, anyway) They made it a great book.

Urien_Rakarth wrote:The first 2 HH books were awesome! how can you say that?

they did seem to absorb more when used as toilet paper, so they were the best of an awful series for that alone.

HAving just read them, i will say this :

Lowest moment : Draigo.

Second lowest moment : Blood angels/necron bromance.


As a chaos Fanboy (im not afriad to admit It ) I find Draigo utterly insulting. He carved someones name on MORTARION'S heart? He killed a daemon prince when he was a new recruit? good lord, thats just the beginning, BEFORE he went into the warp. Draigo is just utterly ridiculous. to me, i see him as a massive middle finger to chaos players

Edit: i havent read the whole thread yet

Melissia wrote:The entirety of the Sons of Malice fluff.

Yes, I still consider Sons of Malice to be worse fluff even than Matt Ward's BA and GK fluff failures.

I just read what little fluff is on lexicanum, and I will now stand next to Melissia and wave the banner of 'There IS worse out there!'

I honestly though that it MUST be some sort of fan-fluff that a 13yr old came up with to match his custom chapter, until I saw it was referenced from index astartes...

As for me, the lowest moment in the 40K fluff is that even the people who design the damn game cannot agree on a consistent set of sizes for titans!

Right, if Sons of Malice fluff was written on Dakka instead of on GW, it'd be ridiculed as villain sue.

I just popped over to Lexicanum and I'm not sure what's so bad about Sons of Malice.

They're a space marine chapter who responded violently to an attack by an inquisitor and went renegade because of it.

Now that they are renegades, they worship a smaller entity of chaos and hold trials in the warp occasionally to root out the strongest and entomb them for a later fight.

What's so sue-ish about that?

The writer sent a large force of Celestians at the chapter-- the best Sisters have to offer, whom in tabletop are more skilled at close combat than vanguard veterans and are themselves literally the BEST non-Astartes soldiers in the Imperium bar none-- and had them utterly decimated by the chapter without causing any damage.

well space marines are supposedly invincibibibibbile! almost as invicibbibly! as Grey Knights!

Melissia wrote:The writer sent a large force of Celestians at the chapter-- the best Sisters have to offer, whom in tabletop are more skilled at close combat than vanguard veterans

Is this from the RPG? Because the 40k rules and previous fluff do not support this statement. Which book, so I can try to find it.

and are themselves literally the BEST non-Astartes soldiers in the Imperium bar none

Again, not sure where this comes from. Is this Dark Heresy stuff that has given the Celestians such an upgrade? I'm checking my C: WH and C: SOB (2nd) and while it says Celestians are the best of the order, it doesn't say any of what you are.

-- and had them utterly decimated by the chapter without causing any damage.

They attacked a chapter of space marines. Even by the expanded fluff you are using above, they are the best non-astartes troops, attacking Astartes who are in full company strength. There also isn't any detail of losses from either side, but one would assume there were some. It says the Celestians were defeated. Did you expect they would win?

A large force of Celestians would be pretty few, based on previous fluff and sizes of Orders from C: WH and C: SOB.

I'm looking for the Index Astartes the fluff comes from right now to see if there is more detail from the Lexicanum.


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redeyed wrote:well space marines are supposedly invincibibibibbile! almost as invicibbibly! as Grey Knights!

Thanks for your charming addition to the conversation, but can we keep the discussion to an actual discussion level rather than the standard silly hyperbole and internet dribble?


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Found it:

Index Astartes IV - Rogue Sons wrote:Pietas mobilized a strike force of Adepta Sororitas Celestians, who deployed from orbit aboard their drop pods, making planetfall in the midst of the company at the height of the celebrations. The strike force found Kathal and his company a horde of fevered maniacs, having worked themselves into a state of animalistic barbarity over the course of their celebrations. Kathal's armour was splattered in gore, and blood ran from his mouth as he presided over the ceremony. Kathal and his brethren fell upon the strike force with a savagery the Inquisitor was utterly unprepared for.

The Celestians fought bravely, but their numbers were too few, and their faith, though strong, could not overcome the sheer fury of Kathal and his men. By the light of burning torches, Kathal cornered the Inquisitor, dragging her before his altar where she was ritually sacrificed. This heinous deed earned the Sons of Malice excommunication, and to this day they reside within the Eye of Terror, where they wage a hate-fuelled war against any they encounter, be they servants of the Imperium, or indeed, other followers of Chaos.

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So what part of that says that the Celestians were defeated without injury or were decimated without causing damage?

In fact, it says they did well for themselves but were outnumbered and the marines were in the depths of their cannabilistic fury. The original article largely lays the loss at the Inquisitor's feet for underestimating the marines.


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Oh yeah, here's where I found it: http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_renegades.html

lol I can see one cant make a joke without psuedo-intellectual responses, I'll be sure to keep it factual next time Its just so boring to constantly read how indestructible the power-armour clad legions are!!


edit:
mind you thinking about it, from what I have read on le forums recently I can understand the reply as alot of people do say that kind of thing far often sooo I will make sure to keep it factual next time for real!

pretre wrote:Which book, so I can try to find it.

C:WH.

A Celestian sister superior hits a furioso dreadnought on a 3+ with her eviscerator-- how many other units can claim that? On the charge, she stands a good chance of having all three attacks hit, and even destroying it because of the extra d6 penetration granted by the weapon (giving it 6+2d6 penetration, a better than average chance of glancing or penetrating with each hit). All Celestians hit infantry and walkers on a 3+ unless they would do better. This makes them, in terms of raw skill, BETTER than almost all non-HQ units in every Astartes book produced in fifth edition.

The main reason they suffer is because C:WH gives them only a bolter as basic weapons-- if they had pistol and CCW or if Sarissas didn't suck and applied to the whole squad, they'd be taken far more than they are right now.

As for them being the best human soldiers in the Imperium bar none, that's hardly disputable. Stormtroopers are the best non-Sororitas soldiers in the Imperium. Basic Battle Sisters are equal to Stormtroopers in terms of training, discipline and skill (with Stormtroopers of course having superior spec-ops ability), and superior to them in equipment and motivation. Seraphim are even better than this, pushing human skill and agility in power armor to Astartes level (superior, in fact, in terms of agility). And Celestians are better, in terms of raw skill, than Seraphim-- beyond the level of the typical Astartes.

I wonder if Sarissas will be a standard upgrade in the rumoured new codex. With a little boost theyd be excellent and work in with the fluff also.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:Which book, so I can try to find it.

C:WH.

A Celestian sister superior hits a furioso dreadnought on a 3+ with her eviscerator-- how many other units can claim that? On the charge, she stands a good chance of having all three attacks hit, and even destroying it because of the extra d6 penetration granted by the weapon (giving it 6+2d6 penetration, a better than average chance of glancing or penetrating with each hit). All Celestians hit infantry and walkers on a 3+ unless they would do better. This makes them, in terms of raw skill, BETTER than almost all non-HQ units in every Astartes book produced in fifth edition.

That's reaching. They have holy hatred, which has nothing to do with skill. Their WS is the same as most units WS4, not better than VV. According to their entry 'their burning hatred makes them formidable foes in combat' not 'their superior skill in close combat'. Is a unit with a Chaplain attached magically now 'more skillful then almost every non-HQ unit in every Astartes book produced in fifth edition' fluff-wise or do they just have someone along that gives them a little added hate?

The main reason they suffer is because C:WH gives them only a bolter as basic weapons-- if they had pistol and CCW or if Sarissas didn't suck and applied to the whole squad, they'd be taken far more than they are right now.

Far more than they are now, as in +1 attack. They would still be hitting on 3's and wounding on 5's while getting hit on 4's and wounded on 3's against tac marines. Not the best place to be.

As for them being the best human soldiers in the Imperium bar none, that's hardly disputable. Stormtroopers are the best non-Sororitas soldiers in the Imperium. Basic Battle Sisters are equal to Stormtroopers in terms of training, discipline and skill (with Stormtroopers of course having superior spec-ops ability), and superior to them in equipment and motivation. Seraphim are even better than this, pushing human skill and agility in power armor to Astartes level (superior, in fact, in terms of agility). And Celestians are better, in terms of raw skill, than Seraphim-- beyond the level of the typical Astartes.

Okay, I won't argue the first part anymore, they are better than basic guard and stormtroopers for basic statline. I will argue the last sentence. Again, same WS as Seraphim, they just hate more. Are Seraphim better marksmen than all Astartes because they have twin-linked weapons at BS4?

All this being said, am I surprised that a perfectly normal thread is getting dragged into Sister minutae by Melissia?





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You know, come to think of it, under your argument, Celestians are the most skilled hand-to-hand experts in the game, barring individuals with Wolf-tooth Necklaces. Unlike those silly Bloodthirsters with their WS10, Celestians always hit on 3's.

That's kind of out there.

Meh, fething strawman arguments. Not touching that with a twenty meter nemesis force weapon.

Probably best to ignore my whole argument and abandon your point based on one part of what I said.


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Or to remove the strawman.

How does Holy Hatred make Celestians the most skillfull CC in the Imperium?

How does dropping far too few Celestians into a whole Company of marines who were just whipped into a religious fervor and then having them lose make the Sons of Malice villain-sues?

pretre wrote:How does Holy Hatred make Celestians the most skillfull CC in the Imperium?

Because they hit more often than WS4 units while being hit the same amount in return.

And yes, I indeed would argue that Chaplains inspire their battle-brothers to greater feats of skill, the same as priests do to Guard and Sisters.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:How does Holy Hatred make Celestians the most skillfull CC in the Imperium?

Because they hit more often than WS4 units while being hit the same amount in return.

They also hit WS10 units more often than WS10 models/characters do. Are they more skillfull than WS10 models/characters?

And yes, I indeed would argue that Chaplains inspire their battle-brothers to greater feats of skill, the same as priests do to Guard and Sisters.

Except priests (just like Celestians) do not embody skill, they imbue rage (see the Priest entry). Arguably, Chaplains inspire dedication (see the last paragraph of their entry in C: SM) and again not skill.

And way to skip my second point (the one that was on topic)...

How does dropping in a fall-too small force of elite troops into a large force of incensed (and by your other argument, more skillful, since they have been imbued with rage) more-elite troops and that smaller force losing make the larger force villain sues?

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:How does Holy Hatred make Celestians the most skillfull CC in the Imperium?

Because they hit more often than WS4 units while being hit the same amount in return.

Not more than Paladins. Or any Grey Knight against Daemons. Or any Wolf Guard with a necklace. Or any Black Templar. I can keep going if you want.

DarknessEternal wrote:Not more than Paladins. Or any Grey Knight against Daemons. Or any Wolf Guard with a necklace. Or any Black Templar. I can keep going if you want.

Melissia wrote:This makes them, in terms of raw skill, BETTER than almost all non-HQ units in every Astartes book produced in fifth edition.

Meh, feth it. This conversation is getting nonsensical and trollish.

Melissia wrote:Meh, F* it. This conversation is getting nonsensical and trollish.

Or, like any M argument, you realized that yours didn't hold merit so only attacked the parts you could win against.

One more time, since this is on topic to the thread:

How does dropping in a far too small force of elite troops into a large force of incensed, more elite troops and that smaller force losing make the larger force villain sues?

Melissia wrote:Stormtroopers are the best non-Sororitas soldiers in the Imperium.

i would place Skitaari predatorians above stormtroopers (and the sisters).

Melissia wrote:Meh, fething strawman arguments. Not touching that with a twenty meter nemesis force weapon.

Where I can get one of those? How many inches is that in the tabletop? If it's long enough perhaps GKs have just found their AT capability


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Also, whoever linked tvtropes should be jailed naked in a warp rift and be left there to rot for all eternity.

While I do agree the GK / SoB thing was a bit... weird.

The Necron & BA alliance made me roll my eyes...

But I have to saw the lowest moment in 40k fluff is probably the 5th edition codex for Tyranids. Don't get me wrong, some of it is very well written, but its very hard to feel inspired when every story in there leads to their defeat :(

Cryage wrote:
But I have to saw the lowest moment in 40k fluff is probably the 5th edition codex for Tyranids. Don't get me wrong, some of it is very well written, but its very hard to feel inspired when every story in there leads to their defeat :(

Umm. It took me about 30 seconds to refute this:

P8-9, The Death of Tyran. Spoiler Alert: The Swarm wins.
P11, Thandros, Imperial Explorator Fleet Dosari, Imperial Cruiser Investigation, Occulus Observator Station, The Star Krumpas. All lost to Behemoth. That's a lot of wins for Behemoth before it is ultimately stopped.

That was in the first couple pages of the book; I stopped there.

Are you looking for the Tyranids to be overall triumphant? So the universe is devoured?

More specifically I was talking about the stories of the hive fleets. A first encounter win is nothing new in a codex... Also a few 2 sentence blurbs on page 11 is hardly a way to inspire a person to feel good about their army, where you pick up any other codex and its well written stories about how amazing their tactics and firepower are... yet with tyranids they describe how cunning and adaptive they are... and then they get stomped out.

And regarding the universe being devoured? Well, you can't stop the inevitable

Meh, there are so many low moments/parts in 40k fluff, it is difficult to name a single one as the worst.

3. Marneus Calgar defeating several companies wort of Nightlords with the help of some peasants...
2. Lord Draigo-nuff said
1. The very worst moment of 40k fluff for me is nothing but a single short quote from the Chaos dex:
"Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded" This just hurt...badly.

Lara wrote:This piece doesn't, in my honest opinion, explain action X. It doesn't say why the Sisters had to die. If he'd even written "because they needed all the blood they could get", or "they did it for the lolz", or "they looked at our shiny armour funny", it would be a reason. Maybe not a great one (that's a matter of personal taste), but my major objection to this piece would be addressed. It is a technical objection. It's just such a glaring technical fault to me that I can't get past it.

Um, well, the reason is pretty clear and stated multiple times throughout the codex: NO WITNESSES.

So instead of 1. Kill sisters and take their blood, and 2. go wreck daemon face, you would prefer they:

1. Safely extract minimum amount of blood.
2. Hope none of the sisters succumb to the corruption and sabotage their plans while they muck about.
3. Go wreck daemon face.
4. Come back and kill the sisters.

That sounds way too complicated. They don't have all day, you know.

A Tau navy defeating a hive fleet before it touched down with NO LOSSES was pretty poor, too. It could have been written "with minimal losses" to show that they are adept at space combat, but nope, they went for the ridiculous.

micahaphone wrote:A Tau navy defeating a hive fleet before it touched down with NO LOSSES was pretty poor, too. It could have been written "with minimal losses" to show that they are adept at space combat, but nope, they went for the ridiculous.

well, to be fair, it was a tiny hive fleet

pretre wrote:

Cryage wrote:
But I have to saw the lowest moment in 40k fluff is probably the 5th edition codex for Tyranids. Don't get me wrong, some of it is very well written, but its very hard to feel inspired when every story in there leads to their defeat :(

Umm. It took me about 30 seconds to refute this:

P8-9, The Death of Tyran. Spoiler Alert: The Swarm wins.
P11, Thandros, Imperial Explorator Fleet Dosari, Imperial Cruiser Investigation, Occulus Observator Station, The Star Krumpas. All lost to Behemoth. That's a lot of wins for Behemoth before it is ultimately stopped.

That was in the first couple pages of the book; I stopped there.

Are you looking for the Tyranids to be overall triumphant? So the universe is devoured?

Actually, I think in the current Dex they have been written as far more dangerous than in previous ones. You are left having read the background with the sense that despite their losses, there are plenty more when that came from (just 'splinter' fleets, the main trunk is still on its way!) and a great shadow is hanging over the Imperium. Which is kind of what we have always been lead to believe.

On top of my previous argument about Horus' reasons for turning against the Imperium being woefully underwritten, I think the transformation of 'Chaos' away from the force of 'disorder' and towards cackling, evil marines with spikes on their armour is one of my biggest disappointments.

"Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded" This just hurt...badly.

Think how Chaos used to be, in terms of their original conception in Slaves to Darkness. It was something dark, mysterious and completely unfathomable. They weren't so much 'evil' (although their actions often brought about death and ruin) but acting towards their own principles which only one who had had his mind opened to Chaos could understand. It was truly 'chaos', and the Imperium represented the antithesis of this, of 'order' and control of peoples lives. Far removed from the quite two-dimensional, and childish, conceptions of 'good' and 'evil' existing as self-contained entities.

Nowadays the objectives of Chaos are control of land and resources, physical power and domination - but these are mundane things, properties of the physical, mortal reality. Previously, Chaos was about something far more, something that one could now know without subjecting yourself or giving yourself to it, and by the time you did that it was too late - you were damned. But it was something far more attractive because of it, far more insidious, simply because it was something that could not be understood.

And I also think it made it far more of a frightening concept, Of course, there would still be room for skulls, spikes and the likes, and for the acts of horror that currently constitutes the character of Chaos. But the background behind those actions, the abstract and unfathomable nature of Chaos, which previously had painted Gods playing in the ether (who may or may not turn their attention to the lives of mortals) and us as their playthings, has been lost and replaced with something far more mundane (and less evocative) in my opinion. Look at some of the artwork portraying those who have 'turned' in the old Slaves to Darkness books, as well as the 1st edition Chaos Marines, they are absolutely mental. Such a thing is, in my book at least, far more frightening than a marine with whitened skin, some tattoos and shrunken heads attached to his belt (possibly stroking a sinister white kitten).

New Gav Thorpe novel, Purging of Kadillus: 6 scouts give up on life so Belial can be teleported in to break off an orc radar dish. .

I'm still not entirely sure why the strategically brilliant descendants of the Lion couldn't have come up with a better plan with more intelligence and less pointless sacrifice.

I’m going with Draigoas his fluff is more akin to a Chuck Norris joke than credible story writing. If Ward went the usual SM hero route and made Draig’s fluff as a powerful character who held is own again powerful foes, I’d have no problems with it. The fact that Ward dragged in Mortarion and the Realm of Chaos itself just to make his character “extra bad ass” without proper thematic justification is just bad class.

If Ward writes the next Chaos book, we’d probably get a weird story where Abaddon roadhouse kicks a loyalist primarch.

Pacific wrote:I knew I shouldn't have written that comment, as I don't have time to write it out in full. Oh well, the crying baby can wait (joke).

The point being, we were treated to very little internal monologue from Horus, very little that touched upon why he actually thought he could do a better job than the Emperor. There was the briefest mention of the Marines worrying about what would happen to them when there job was done, of an Imperium run by petty bureaucrats. But all in all it was barely touched upon. So, we were expected to believe that Horus was turning his back on 200 years of warfare, of fighting alongside his father and being party to his plans, of having that huge responsibility of taking that huge burden on his own shoulders. Not only that, but to do the unthinkable - to destroy his own brothers and progeny, both inside and outside the Legion, to destroy the very Imperium he had helped to create.

He threw all of that away, and decided he could do a better job. And why? There was just not enough rational causality in Horus' decisions, not enough there to convince why he was taking this utterly insane course of actions, and was prepared to destroy everything he had helped to create. And so, the writer turned instead to the 'get out of jail free card', and quite possibly the worst plot device other than 'and then they woke up': 'a wizard did it'. Horus wasn't of rational mind, because he had been stabbed by a magic sword. Thus, there is no recourse to any kind of rational cause and effect in Horus' decision making. Horus emerges from the temple with dark circles around his eyes, and then sets about the business of killing his progeny and ripping the Imperium in half. How much more emotive, how much more powerful it might have been if we had been privy to Horus' own internal monologues about what he was doing? About how he agonised over the path he was taking, but knew that is was necessary to save mankind? Instead, his character is reduced to that of a two-dimensional comic book character, cackling while he plots the destruction of Terra.

To be honest I think it was by far the biggest let-down in the Horus Heresy series. We have seen why the other Primarchs fell; McNeil did a far more convincing job with both Fulgrim and Magnus in A Thousand Sons, and makes me wish he had come to False Gods later on, and presumably away from a strict word-count limit or deadline. So too ADB's handling of Lorgar, whose character was padded out with admirable aplomb. All of the traitor Primarchs were quite tragic characters, whose flawed decision making lead to their downfall. But the biggest one, the grand-daddy of them all and the reason why the 40k universe actually exists in the way that it does has been almost completely forgotten about - almost completely skated over, and what's even more puzzling is how everyone seems to have ignored what could have potentially been one of the most epic and emotional story arcs ever committed to print in the history of Games Workshop.

Remember when the Heresy was first written about, there was talk of the Heresy itself being based upon Milton's Paradise Lost. About how Satan decided that, hey, perhaps it is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven. But, all of the meat of that discussion, of philosophical argument and of rationalising, has been almost completely omitted from the 40k re-telling of that tale.

Just my own thoughts on this of course, and sorry to go off on one a bit!

Now see to that baby

The Grey Knight Codex, and anything by Goto.

There is so much fail in the GK Codex it's just absurd. The BA/Cron Bromance is stupid, but it's funny-stupid. Nothing in the GK book is funny-stupid. It's all horrifically bad what-the-feth-were-they-thinking stupid. It rapes the background fluff and then goes back for seconds. It's fething awful.