The Emperor is a catatonic corpse, incapable of either physically fighting the Chaos gods or dying and becoming one of them.
The Imperium has become fanatical and religious, the precise opposite of what the Emperor intended.
Technology has stagnated, and as alien and supernatural threats loom humanity drifts deeper and deeper into despair - thus feeding Nurgle.
The Imperium is in a constant state of war and bloodshed, hateful against anything and everything - thus feeding Khorne.
Those at the highest levels of the Imperium scheme and plot and hoard knowledge - thus feeding Tzeentch.
Those same schemers and aristocrats sate their desires in extravagant ways as the masses hunger and lust for the pleasures denied to them - thus feeding Slaanesh.
Abaddon the Despoiler leads Crusade after Crusade, never winning but always posing enough of a threat to terrorize the entire Imperium.
Chaos won the Horus Heresy. It just didn't win in the spectacular, apocalyptic way everyone expected. Horus didn't need to slay the Emperor. Abaddon didn't have to sit on the Golden Throne. Cadia didn't have to be overrun and pillaged. Terra didn't have to burn. The Ecclesiarchy didn't have to bow to Chaos. That would have made it all too easy, too messy. Chaos won in an insidious and tidy way, a way that will forever ensure its dominance over the Galaxy. It allows humanity to live, feeding it with its emotions and lusts without the species even knowing.
Humanity spirals into a never-ending hell of hatred and ignorance, dying not with a triumphant final battle, but instead with a futile whimper of defiance, a whimper that is drowned out by the laughter of thirsting gods.
It is the verge of endgame, where there is an eternal stalemate for game reasons; if you timeline were to continue, then every army's endgame would start:
IoM: The Emperor would die and be re-born and the loyal Primarches would return
Chaos: Cadia would fall and the Eye of Terror would be opened by destroying the Pylons and another Heresy-esque assault on the Imperium of Man would start
Eldar: The Phoenix Lords would come together for the Rhana Dandra
Tyranids: The rest of Tyranid invasion force would enter the galaxy
Necrons: All Tomb Worlds would wake up simultaneously and the Void Dragon inside Mars would awaken
Tau: Unknown Endgame, possibly something to do with the Eathereals e.g. a possible link to the Old Ones?
Orks: One Warboss will rise up and unite the entire race under his banner
Nobody 'loses', in fact, i'd say that Khorne has the chance of becoming one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, seeing as though he feeds off blood shed by any race (Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows) and that endgame would bring a lot of that.
If anything, one of the most titanic battles I can imagine is Tyranids vs Orks vs Khornate daemons, Orks gain power from fighting, Tyranids gain food from their fallen troops and the Orks, and Khorne gains power from the blood that is shed.
Avatar 720 wrote:Nobody 'loses', in fact, i'd say that Khorne has the chance of becoming one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, seeing as though he feeds off blood shed by any race (Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows) and that endgame would bring a lot of that.
If anything, one of the most titanic battles I can imagine is Tyranids vs Orks vs Khornate daemons, Orks gain power from fighting, Tyranids gain food from their fallen troops and the Orks, and Khorne gains power from the blood that is shed.
woo, that could get messy. the only thing missing from the Octavian Wars was Daemons.
Yeah I personally think that the Heresy went better for chaos than if they had won. Humans don't need leading to chaos they naturally feed it, they need a lot of help to free themselms from it. Chaos succeeded in defeating the emperor so humanity can't break away from chaos but kept humanity alive so they continue to feed them.
Once the Empire brings to bear it's full military might against the pathetic stone throwing apes of the Imperium, they will bring a million Railguns to bear on anything that dares leave the warp.
All 4 Gods sitting in a pig pen of warp filth as the smallest, most powerful, technologically advanced Empire ever to exist wipes out the threat of corruption by merely being incorruptible.
The Tau are uncorruptable, they are not unkillable. You don't need to turn them to Chaos in order to fry one with a plasmagun (they go well with chips and gravy) or stick it with a sword.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Chaos will never defeat the Tau Empire.
Tau don't fall to the Gods of the Warp.
Once the Empire brings to bear it's full military might against the pathetic stone throwing apes of the Imperium, they will bring a million Railguns to bear on anything that dares leave the warp.
All 4 Gods sitting in a pig pen of warp filth as the smallest, most powerful, technologically advanced Empire ever to exist wipes out the threat of corruption by merely being incorruptible.
Chaos did steal a Tau colony and mutated the inhabitants. ( F.Bile did it ). So how again is this Tau "empire" autowinning against chaos?
Can they protect their colonies? Seems not.
Shoot that demon with your railgun. It doesn't matter, the demons returns. Tau can't kill the chaos dwellers on their own plane of existance
which would be the only way. The "stone throwing apes otoh, can.
Tau have a small warp signature, thus their not of interest. But there is nothing to base the claim of incorruptible on.
Why the heck do Daemons even care about Tau , what do they realy mean to the Daemons. And I don't think you can protect all your colonies , the Tyranids and Necrons still pose a threat aswell as Chaos.
Daemons may be scary to the slow minded descendants of apes, that sleep a 1/3 of their life away while having nightmares about the horrors of the warp and take hours to understand a fear that takes Tau seconds to solve.
The Warp may be a Daemons playground, but in realspace they are target practice for hammerheads.
Plasma is a joke when a shield drone can shrug it off and compared to the ever evolving might of Railgun technology, we may aswell talk about how scary bayonets are.
The Imperium of Man may fear Daemons... But so long as the Tau Empire stands, Daemons have not won.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Daemons may be scary to the slow minded descendants of apes, that sleep a 1/3 of their life away while having nightmares about the horrors of the warp and take hours to understand a fear that takes Tau seconds to solve.
The Imperium of Man may fear Daemons... But so long as the Tau Empire stands, Daemons have not won.
Tau and solve? Are they able to solve the "friend / foe recognition issue" they have? Doesn't look like...
Good Bye little Tau "empire", was nice to know you. Demons got the whole eternity to screw you. They only need a entry point, maybe one of your newly aquired "allies" isn't incorruptible?
Kroot already proved to be changable.....
The Fact Kroot may turn on you and are easily corruptible and would betray the Empire , Vespids also could be corrupted. The Tau battle suits can't stop the Bloodletters plunging their Hell blades into the Battle suits with great ease and decapitating Fire Warriors while Lords of Changedestroy your long ranged vehicles with beams of magical energy.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Daemons may be scary to the slow minded descendants of apes, that sleep a 1/3 of their life away while having nightmares about the horrors of the warp and take hours to understand a fear that takes Tau seconds to solve.
The Imperium of Man may fear Daemons... But so long as the Tau Empire stands, Daemons have not won.
Tau and solve? Are they able to solve the "friend / foe recognition issue" they have? Doesn't look like...
Good Bye little Tau "empire", was nice to know you. Demons got the whole eternity to screw you. They only need a entry point, maybe one of your newly aquired "allies" isn't incorruptible?
Kroot already proved to be changable.....
Chaos cannot claim victory over a mind it cannot seduce.
If Kroot can be turned, then Kroot will be killed.
The Tau Empire doesn't worry about worthless warp dogs. The seat of power in the Empire will never be contested.
Case in point, world wide Eye of Terror Campaign. Chaos WINS.
GW: Are bad the Cadian IG model lines one of are best seller. So lets call it a draw. Sure the player spent all that time and money playing a campaign to effect the outcome, but its not like we really care.
Those at the highest levels of the Imperium scheme and plot and hoard knowledge - thus feeding Tzeentch.
Those same schemers and aristocrats sate their desires in extravagant ways as the masses hunger and lust for the pleasures denied to them - thus feeding Slaanesh.
I'd have to disagree with those two points.
Also, the Emperor is busy battling demons with his mind, so he's not just doing nothing. He does this in addition to lighting the astrominican.
Lets just all calm down and accept that orks are the best. There's no way around it, we have the shootiest guns, the loudest guns, the biggest guns, the flashiest guns, the lliest choppas, the loudest choppas, the biggest choppas, the flashiest (they're orks so this makes sense) choppas. And they is well 'ard.
(I have no real argument at the moment, I may return with one at a later date).
Hawkward wrote:The Emperor is a catatonic corpse, incapable of either physically fighting the Chaos gods or dying and becoming one of them.
The Imperium has become fanatical and religious, the precise opposite of what the Emperor intended.
Technology has stagnated, and as alien and supernatural threats loom humanity drifts deeper and deeper into despair - thus feeding Nurgle.
The Imperium is in a constant state of war and bloodshed, hateful against anything and everything - thus feeding Khorne.
Those at the highest levels of the Imperium scheme and plot and hoard knowledge - thus feeding Tzeentch.
Those same schemers and aristocrats sate their desires in extravagant ways as the masses hunger and lust for the pleasures denied to them - thus feeding Slaanesh.
Abaddon the Despoiler leads Crusade after Crusade, never winning but always posing enough of a threat to terrorize the entire Imperium.
Chaos won the Horus Heresy. It just didn't win in the spectacular, apocalyptic way everyone expected. Horus didn't need to slay the Emperor. Abaddon didn't have to sit on the Golden Throne. Cadia didn't have to be overrun and pillaged. Terra didn't have to burn. The Ecclesiarchy didn't have to bow to Chaos. That would have made it all too easy, too messy. Chaos won in an insidious and tidy way, a way that will forever ensure its dominance over the Galaxy. It allows humanity to live, feeding it with its emotions and lusts without the species even knowing.
Humanity spirals into a never-ending hell of hatred and ignorance, dying not with a triumphant final battle, but instead with a futile whimper of defiance, a whimper that is drowned out by the laughter of thirsting gods.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Daemons may be scary to the slow minded descendants of apes, that sleep a 1/3 of their life away while having nightmares about the horrors of the warp and take hours to understand a fear that takes Tau seconds to solve.
The Warp may be a Daemons playground, but in realspace they are target practice for hammerheads.
Plasma is a joke when a shield drone can shrug it off and compared to the ever evolving might of Railgun technology, we may aswell talk about how scary bayonets are.
The Imperium of Man may fear Daemons... But so long as the Tau Empire stands, Daemons have not won.
If every single Tau had an impenetrable shield generator, then that theory works, but as it stands it's laughably flawed.
Using your logic, a Space Marine with a Storm Shield could go toe-to-toe with an army of daemons and would win every time, in which case, why haven't a team of assault terminators being sent to the Eye of Terror to kill the Chaos Gods? In fact, the Space Marines on Cadia should have already won by now due to lauching themselves through and killing all the daemons.
You are seeing the Tau through very rose-tinted glasses, so rose-tinted i'm surprised you can see anything at all. Shield Drones and Railguns are far, far from the be-all and end-all of defenses and weaponry.
The trouble is that we haven't had any fluff yet that pitches Chaos vs Tau because the Chaos Gods consider them a very minor threat, and for good reason; they're set up in small colonies along the Eastern Fringe and the Damocles Crusade would have wiped them out had it not been for a Tyranid Hive Fleet requiring the Imperium to pull out, the Tau were simply out-numbered and out-gunned at nearly every turn, and even now there are small skirmishes along it with the IoM, and Ork problem that Farsight is trying to tackle, a Hive Fleet and splinters, and the Necrons of the world that awoke in the battle described in the Nid codex between the Tau, one of the aforementioned Hive Splinters attacking, and the Necrons beneath awakening, slaughtering the Nids and then slaughtering the Tau.
The Tau have only just started Third Sphere Colonisation and re-colonisation, which includes a small handful of planets with every sphere.
If anything, and I mean anything, put enough force behind a direct strike at the Tau Empire, it would crumble, but as it stands, it's not yet large enough or powerful enough to warrant direct attention.
They were locked in a stalemate with the impending threat of being blockaded and utterly wiped out. They were recalled while they faced possible destruction. The Fire Caste hounds were called off when the Ethereals let them go, when they could of exterminated the entire Crusade.
Farsight isn't "dealing" with an Ork incursion, he is exterminating his way beyond sanctioned borders.
Tau fear failing the Ethereals.
The war between them and Chaos will come someday. When that day comes, the Tau will show the Imperium how you deal with a power hungry space chimp on warp roids... A rail shot to it's miserable face for the greater good.
BeefCakeSoup, I'm going to tell you a little story about the Tau.
The Tau, for one reason or another, ended up fighting Chaos Space Marines. These Chaos Space Marines ended up summoning a Greater Daemon, a Keeper of Secrets. The Tau killed the physical form of the Keeper of Secrets. The Tau then thought that they had in fact killed Slaanesh.
Another little story. The Tau were defending their empire from Tyranids, I think it was. Anyway, the Tau are getting well and truly munched. Out of nowhere, a handful of black obelisks appear, and begin beating back the Tyranids. The Tau are so grateful they issue a message to the pilots of these black obelisks. The inhabitants of these structures make landfall. There were no Tau survivors.
Oh, the Damocles Crusade was doomed, huh? News to me. I was under the impression that the number of soldiers in the armies of the Damocles Crusade alone was more than double the Tau army. The fact of the matter is that the Tau really are seriously minor players in the world of 40k. They quite simply don't have the manpower to really get anything done, besides the paltry handful of systems they own. And of course, there's the most crippling fact of all: they have no method of accomplishing FTL. With this sad little fact, the Tau are forever consigned to rule over their glorious 'Empire' of backwater planets.
As for Chaos being unable to kill Tau... You said that shield drones provide more defense than a Chaos Daemon could ever get through.
Okay.
Keep in mind that the shield drone provides you with an invulnerable save, some kind of forcefield that protects you against even the mightiest blows. Not too shabby, I'll admit that.
Now realize that every single daemon in every single horde of chaos also has an invulnerable save. By your logic, they're absolutely unstoppable.
The Crusade was far from doomed, they were successfully and relentlessly pushing the Tau back, the Tau lost footholds at every point.
The Imperium also didn't pull out because they'd have died otherwise, it's even stated in the Tau codex that they pulled out because of a Tyranid invasion ("Word had started the reach the Crusade of renewed Tyranid attacks...") requiring their attention more than the Tau, especially after what had happened at Macragge, and Tau could have only concievably blockaded them if they'd not allowed the Imperium to escape, but when you compare the Tau Navy to the Imperial Navy, a blockade would have ended in disaster for the Tau; they firepower on most of their ships (see the Tau in BFG), with only the Tigershark posing a real threat; the Imperial Navy has ships bristling with cannons that would've blasted the Tau ships out of the sky.
The Crusade was stalled because they attacked Dal'yth Prime, a major sept world, but if they had stayed there then they would have won, the Tau lacked the man-power required to push back the combined strength of Space Marines, Titans, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.
So by the logic here, the notable defeats of the Tau are a collective of tricks and suprises?
That 2:1 odds are somehow supposed to kill a race that can fight against 20:1 odds? Farsight faced a planetary WAAAAGH for months before he evacutated the last of his FWs. Only to return and crush the forces that sieged him.
The "backwater" planets the Tau inhabit contain a collection of the minds and works of the most advanced technology in known existence. Barring Necrons full technological capacity, the Tau simply dominate the battlefield with superior Technology.
As for the Shield Drones, they can take even the most punishing hit a Daemon can throw. The difference is that that shield drones shields are saving the shield drone not the Tau using it. Where as the Daemon is going to take a brutal shot to the face if he fails to deflect even one hit. And guess what, Pulse Rifles are capable of delivering those hits. And that's the low end of a whole lotta high end hurt.
Be thankful the Tau lack technology (for now) that gives them competitve travel. Because if they ever achieve that fast of travel, their "tiny" Empire is going to blitz through an entire galaxy ripe for the taking. The sheer amount of planets that would simply surrender to better lifestyles would set the galaxy up for new rulers.
Sure, a 20:1 fight against Orks. You do realize that any conflict with the Orks is going to be around 20:1, right? That's just how they operate. It's much different when you're facing the combined might of an entire Imperial Crusade, featuring multiple Space Marine chapters and Titan legions. I don't care how many rail guns you've got, there's just not much that can deal with that level of hurt. You'll spend all your time blasting at the big things only to have the Guardsmen and their formidable tanks take you to pieces, or you'll eliminate the little guys just in time to catch a salvo of Vulcan Megabolters to the face. Seriously, it's a lose-lose in this situation.
Don't get me wrong here. I am in no way an Imperium fanboy. I'm Chaos through-and-through, but even I realize that an attack of that magnitude on ANY Chaos-occupied system (barring the Eye of Terror, due to the influence of the Warp) would end in victory for the Imperium.
Sure, the war might have been costly for the Imperium, possibly too costly for it to even be worth it for Mankind, but in the end they would have won. The Imperium really is the big player in the galaxy right now, and there's nothing anyone can do about that, especially the Tau, who are an especially small player in the galaxy right now. It's just the way it is. This doesn't mean that the Tau are any less respectable a force, it just means that at the moment they are a fledgling and comparatively weak race. I mean, look at the Eldar; fluff-wise, they're just as shanked as your blue cow-people are, maybe even more so. It's not just your force of choice getting raked over the coals here.
Avatar 720 wrote:The Crusade was far from doomed, they were successfully and relentlessly pushing the Tau back, the Tau lost footholds at every point.
The Imperium also didn't pull out because they'd have died otherwise, it's even stated in the Tau codex that they pulled out because of a Tyranid invasion ("Word had started the reach the Crusade of renewed Tyranid attacks...") requiring their attention more than the Tau, especially after what had happened at Macragge, and Tau could have only concievably blockaded them if they'd not allowed the Imperium to escape, but when you compare the Tau Navy to the Imperial Navy, a blockade would have ended in disaster for the Tau; they firepower on most of their ships (see the Tau in BFG), with only the Tigershark posing a real threat; the Imperial Navy has ships bristling with cannons that would've blasted the Tau ships out of the sky.
The Crusade was stalled because they attacked Dal'yth Prime, a major sept world, but if they had stayed there then they would have won, the Tau lacked the man-power required to push back the combined strength of Space Marines, Titans, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.
If the Imperium wasn't run by a bunch of slow nits they would of realized they weren't pushing the Tau back. Tau doctrine of warfare shines light on the gains that lead to a stalemate. They got played by the Tau because they assumed they were making ground. When infact, the Tau had taken a large force, lured it in, seperated it from it bases, cut it's logistics all to hell, and had it stuck in a place it wasn't good to be stuck in. They then sent envoys to negotiate formal pantsing. Tau Doctrine is page 13, under Battle. It is literally the play they used and acheived stalemate with one planet's defenses against a Crusade.
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Shelegelah wrote:Sure, a 20:1 fight against Orks. You do realize that any conflict with the Orks is going to be around 20:1, right? That's just how they operate. It's much different when you're facing the combined might of an entire Imperial Crusade, featuring multiple Space Marine chapters and Titan legions. I don't care how many rail guns you've got, there's just not much that can deal with that level of hurt. You'll spend all your time blasting at the big things only to have the Guardsmen and their formidable tanks take you to pieces, or you'll eliminate the little guys just in time to catch a salvo of Vulcan Megabolters to the face. Seriously, it's a lose-lose in this situation.
Don't get me wrong here. I am in no way an Imperium fanboy. I'm Chaos through-and-through, but even I realize that an attack of that magnitude on ANY Chaos-occupied system (barring the Eye of Terror, due to the influence of the Warp) would end in victory for the Imperium.
Sure, the war might have been costly for the Imperium, possibly too costly for it to even be worth it for Mankind, but in the end they would have won. The Imperium really is the big player in the galaxy right now, and there's nothing anyone can do about that, especially the Tau, who are an especially small player in the galaxy right now. It's just the way it is. This doesn't mean that the Tau are any less respectable a force, it just means that at the moment they are a fledgling and comparatively weak race. I mean, look at the Eldar; fluff-wise, they're just as shanked as your blue cow-people are, maybe even more so. It's not just your force of choice getting raked over the coals here.
Tau don't sweat the Imperium. It is the Tau expanding into the open arms of their people. Those sent to halt this failed.
Oh, and
Manta > Titans. (The only exception being the rare Emperor Class)
Not only does a Manta make a mockery of a Titan, it carries a small army. The best part about Mantas? The Tau don't have to summon a machine cults permission to make them, they pump em out like butter. Ensuring almost every battle has them on standby.
If the Imperium wasn't run by a bunch of slow nits they would of realized they weren't pushing the Tau back. Tau doctrine of warfare shines light on the gains that lead to a stalemate. They got played by the Tau because they assumed they were making ground. When infact, the Tau had taken a large force, lured it in, seperated it from it bases, cut it's logistics all to hell, and had it stuck in a place it wasn't good to be stuck in. They then sent envoys to negotiate formal pantsing. Tau Doctrine is page 13, under Battle. It is literally the play they used and acheived stalemate with one planet's defenses against a Crusade.
BS, the only reason the Crusade slowed was because they hit a Sept World, which are military worlds and would be akin to attacking an SM Chapter's Home Planet wtih the entire Chapter still garrisoned there, it had nothing to do with tactics, the Tau were being crushed mercilessly at every point.
So by the logic here, the notable defeats of the Tau are a collective of tricks and suprises?
What is amazing is that you can bring logic into this, yet ignore that others bring, quit trolling.
If the Imperium wasn't run by a bunch of slow nits they would of realized they weren't pushing the Tau back. Tau doctrine of warfare shines light on the gains that lead to a stalemate. They got played by the Tau because they assumed they were making ground. When infact, the Tau had taken a large force, lured it in, seperated it from it bases, cut it's logistics all to hell, and had it stuck in a place it wasn't good to be stuck in. They then sent envoys to negotiate formal pantsing. Tau Doctrine is page 13, under Battle. It is literally the play they used and acheived stalemate with one planet's defenses against a Crusade.
BS, the only reason the Crusade slowed was because they hit a Sept World, which are military worlds and would be akin to attacking an SM Chapter's Home Planet wtih the entire Chapter still garrisoned there, it had nothing to do with tactics, the Tau were being crushed mercilessly at every point.
So by the logic here, the notable defeats of the Tau are a collective of tricks and suprises?
What is amazing is that you can bring logic into this, yet ignore that others bring, quit trolling.
1. No, I am not trolling you but no. Dal'yth is a cosmopolitan world of traders and merchants. Had this been on Vior'la the Crusade would of been totally destroyed in days. The Tau do not value "land" in combat. They use a battlefield as a canvass to draw a plan of destruction on. Offensive battles are always more costly in war, the Tau force an opponent to constantly go on an offensive, while they play a much less costly defensive game. In the case of Dal'yth, The Imperium played into their hands and a decent sized Imperial force was stuck in the mud, in enemy territory.
2. I fully accept some of the things being said, Necrons did pants Tau, as did the Dark Eldar. But if you use those examples, keep in mind they were cheap lessons compared to what they could of been, and now never will be.
1. No, I am not trolling you but no. Dal'yth is a cosmopolitan world of traders and merchants. Had this been on Vior'la the Crusade would of been totally destroyed in days. The Tau do not value "land" in combat. They use a battlefield as a canvass to draw a plan of destruction on. Offensive battles are always more costly in war, the Tau force an opponent to constantly go on an offensive, while they play a much less costly defensive game. In the case of Dal'yth, The Imperium played into their hands and a decent sized Imperial force was stuck in the mud, in enemy territory.
2. I fully accept some of the things being said, Necrons did pants Tau, as did the Dark Eldar. But if you use those examples, keep in mind they were cheap lessons compared to what they could of been, and now never will be.
A sept world is important to the Empire and will have the strongest garrisons available, wether it's a market world, an eco-world or a military world. Obviously, the more militaristic septs will be stronger, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that a sept world is going to be balls deep in military might just because it's a sept world.
The Dark Eldar and Necron examples isn't what i'm talking about, it's the 'shield generators=Tau win' crap; you ignored the replies that used your logic and then used our logic to make your own scenario and expected us to listen, which is downright hypocritical.
1. No, I am not trolling you but no. Dal'yth is a cosmopolitan world of traders and merchants. Had this been on Vior'la the Crusade would of been totally destroyed in days. The Tau do not value "land" in combat. They use a battlefield as a canvass to draw a plan of destruction on. Offensive battles are always more costly in war, the Tau force an opponent to constantly go on an offensive, while they play a much less costly defensive game. In the case of Dal'yth, The Imperium played into their hands and a decent sized Imperial force was stuck in the mud, in enemy territory.
2. I fully accept some of the things being said, Necrons did pants Tau, as did the Dark Eldar. But if you use those examples, keep in mind they were cheap lessons compared to what they could of been, and now never will be.
A sept world is important to the Empire and will have the strongest garrisons available, wether it's a market world, an eco-world or a military world. Obviously, the more militaristic septs will be stronger, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that a sept world is going to be balls deep in military might just because it's a sept world.
The Dark Eldar and Necron examples isn't what i'm talking about, it's the 'shield generators=Tau win' crap; you ignored the replies that used your logic and then used our logic to make your own scenario and expected us to listen, which is downright hypocritical.
I will be specific because you are correct, I didn't answer that properly.
Daemons have an invuln.
Tau have armor and invulns. Break the invuln on a daemon it dies or is wounded. Break the invuln on a Tau and it's flying frisbee dies.
So as far as that is concerned, Daemons attacking all day long doesn't bother the Tau as a whole. They don't turn to Chaos and for the most part Chaos is hungry to eat Terra. When the two meet in a massive campaign someday, we will see how the Fire Caste army does against creatures that perhaps have worse tactics than the IoM, given their failure rate in Crusades, incursions and their amusing use of swords vs railguns and pulse rifles.
If you're facing a purely Khornate force, then shooting them to death might be the only way, but the world could be a trap and the daemons appear amidst the Tau.
Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh will all have psychic powers available to them, amongst other things, such as unnatural resillience for Nurgle (a railgun might put a hole through a beast of nurgle, but it might not stop it), sorcerous wards for Tzeentch (railguns are solid projectiles, they hit a psychic barrier or ward that stops them instantly and your weapon is now useless) or unnatural speed for Slaanesh (how do you hit something that can dodge faster than your projectile can cover ground?).
Whilst Tau might be resistant to warp temptations, they are far from resistant to psychic powers until new fluff is written; bolts of energy, plagues and disease and emotions can kill Tau as easily as any other race.
Also remember that the daemons aren't attacking Cadia, Abaddon and his Black legion is, also bear in mind that cadia is fortified by countless companies from countless marine chapters, the Cadians and countless millions/billions of guardsmen, the Ordo malleus (as if the Grey Knights wouldn't have a base next to the eye) and likely the Adeptus Soroitas too (to keep the guardsman loyal and the traitors a crisp golden brown).
You also have to bear in mind the Pylons on Cadia, which hold the eye at it's current level and will play havoc with daemons around them, most likely preventing them from materialising altogether due to the Necron origins of the pylons and the anti-warp that the Necrons have.
If the garrison of Cadia was present on Macragge when the Tyranids attacked, the Hive Fleet would have been obliterated; when you take that, remember that Chaos Space Marines are nowhere near as numerous or determined and single-minded as the Tyranids, but are still up against the same force that crushed that would've crushed the fleet beneath it's boot, it's no wonder that each black crusade has failed.
To end this read legion it explains that their has always been two options.
Spoiler:
If one primarch joined chaos,the Kabal said that chaos would engulf the human race and would eat its self and destroy its self in a matter of generations saving the galaxy. The second option was that good would win but chaos would stagnate and would lead to the destruction of alot more than human's .
The star child idea has been seid to be uncannon according to GW. Sorry guys but in the end chaos will always be with humans reguardless and it is slowly winning.
Shelegelah to what your saying h tau do nto feed chaos in a way since they do not have a soul no daemons can be created of tau. Tau can be killed reguardless because they are a material creature and daemons are from the warp even sheild drones would not stop their mighty daemon weapons.
Avatar 720 wrote:If you're facing a purely Khornate force, then shooting them to death might be the only way, but the world could be a trap and the daemons appear amidst the Tau.
Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh will all have psychic powers available to them, amongst other things, such as unnatural resillience for Nurgle (a railgun might put a hole through a beast of nurgle, but it might not stop it), sorcerous wards for Tzeentch (railguns are solid projectiles, they hit a psychic barrier or ward that stops them instantly and your weapon is now useless) or unnatural speed for Slaanesh (how do you hit something that can dodge faster than your projectile can cover ground?).
Whilst Tau might be resistant to warp temptations, they are far from resistant to psychic powers until new fluff is written; bolts of energy, plagues and disease and emotions can kill Tau as easily as any other race.
Also remember that the daemons aren't attacking Cadia, Abaddon and his Black legion is, also bear in mind that cadia is fortified by countless companies from countless marine chapters, the Cadians and countless millions/billions of guardsmen, the Ordo malleus (as if the Grey Knights wouldn't have a base next to the eye) and likely the Adeptus Soroitas too (to keep the guardsman loyal and the traitors a crisp golden brown).
You also have to bear in mind the Pylons on Cadia, which hold the eye at it's current level and will play havoc with daemons around them, most likely preventing them from materialising altogether due to the Necron origins of the pylons and the anti-warp that the Necrons have.
If the garrison of Cadia was present on Macragge when the Tyranids attacked, the Hive Fleet would have been obliterated; when you take that, remember that Chaos Space Marines are nowhere near as numerous or determined and single-minded as the Tyranids, but are still up against the same force that crushed that would've crushed the fleet beneath it's boot, it's no wonder that each black crusade has failed.
The primary threat of Chaos is impressive. But it wouldn't be a fight against a bunch of simpletons that rely on pure numerical strength to win. Due to the fact that the bulk of weapons used by Tau have little to no problem wounding even the most impressive of Daemons means the threat would be mitigated largely for an army that relies on ranged warfare.
Things like plagues, hallucinations, and shielding would be combat multipliers, but they alone wouldn't win a battle against the Tau, especially given the Ethereals mysterious hold on the Tau mind.
Plus, the current genocide of fluff (GK dex) depicts a single man wandering the warp aimlessly destroying any daemon in his path. If one well trained man can wander their home turf I'm sure a massive technology advanced military can handle them in real space.
But I guess we will have to see when more fluff is written. I agree with you remarks about Cadia, I guess they did have some rather large defenses in a somewhat lopsided battle.
On a side note, I find it odd their hasn't been a major fight between the two, given one represents pure evil, while the other holds a more good guy title.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:So by the logic here, the notable defeats of the Tau are a collective of tricks and surprises?
Farly yes. Tau use diplomacy, promises and assassination to conquer a planet. Theyt simply lack numbers to conquer a Imperial Hive world ( Taros was just small colony ).
That 2:1 odds are somehow supposed to kill a race that can fight against 20:1 odds? Farsight faced a planetary WAAAAGH for months before he evacutated the last of his FWs. Only to return and crush the forces that sieged him.
it's easy to outmaneuver Orks. Even easier when you have entire army with big guns.
The "backwater" planets the Tau inhabit contain a collection of the minds and works of the most advanced technology in known existence. Barring Necrons full technological capacity, the Tau simply dominate the battlefield with superior Technology.
Most advanced technology? And what is the Golden Throne? Imperial Titan? Eldar Wabway? Necron phasing? Tau only have pulse and stealth technology more advanced than other races. Everyone can make battle suit ( Dreadnought ) but only Tau are giving it Jetpack and pulse weaponry.
As for the Shield Drones, they can take even the most punishing hit a Daemon can throw. The difference is that that shield drones shields are saving the shield drone not the Tau using it. Where as the Daemon is going to take a brutal shot to the face if he fails to deflect even one hit. And guess what, Pulse Rifles are capable of delivering those hits. And that's the low end of a whole lotta high end hurt.
You are right about that, but remember that daemons are immortal. You can kill his physical form - he will eventually return to fight against you again. And deamons are using magic in their fight - and magic>technology.
Be thankful the Tau lack technology (for now) that gives them competitve travel. Because if they ever achieve that fast of travel, their "tiny" Empire is going to blitz through an entire galaxy ripe for the taking. The sheer amount of planets that would simply surrender to better lifestyles would set the galaxy up for new rulers.
Are you an idiot? For Tau to reach that speeds they have to be psychic race and use warp. ( Necrons are simply out of the question since they destroy every peace of useful technology when they are destroyed ).And inhabitants of "planets that would simply surrender to better lifestyles" hates aliens so much that they would fight against the Tau to the last. And there will never be Tau "blitz" simply because in that case the High Lord of Terra would send a Crusade fleet so large that Tau would be outnumbered not 20:1 but 200:1. All Tau can do now is stay quite and hope not to disturb the sleeping giants of the Milky Way galaxy ( remember Japanese in WWII ).
The golden throne is a shrine to what man could of been, but never will be. Repairing it is beyond the greatest minds of the Imperium.
On the tech note, the first generation of galactic weaponry for standard infantry was the pulse rifle. The proto-type being tested now is the rail rifle. When the first generation of your weaponry turned guardsman into goo and your second generation turns space marines into goo it's fair to say you laugh at the galaxies "best" tech.
As for the capability to travel without psyker abilities, totally possible, if a short lived angry race of Necrons were able to find a technological solution I'm sure a short lived happy race can too.
As for the ensuing blitz, the Imperium would surrender or fight to the last.
A Tau Empire 1/4 the size of the Imperium would be undefeatable. And if Horus was able to lay siege to Terra with far less forces than that, it is no doubt possible the Tau would crush anything in their path due to the fact they would have rediculous technology and resources at that point.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The golden throne is a shrine to what man could of been, but never will be. Repairing it is beyond the greatest minds of the Imperium.
Of course when it was build by man who has all knowledge from the DaoT. And the only one who knows how to repair it is in it. Still, his psyhic powers are still the same and he safeguard human souls by not giving them to Chaos gods.
On the tech note, the first generation of galactic weaponry for standard infantry was the pulse rifle. The proto-type being tested now is the rail rifle. When the first generation of your weaponry turned guardsman into goo and your second generation turns space marines into goo it's fair to say you laugh at the galaxies "best" tech.
And still this one "goo" Guardsman has a good tech to take out most of the Mankind enemies. And this one "goo" Space Marine can take entire army's of Mankind enemies + he's immortal.
As for the capability to travel without psyker abilities, totally possible, if a short lived angry race of Necrons were able to find a technological solution I'm sure a short lived happy race can too.
That wasn't the Necrontyr, but the C'tan. And their solution was to sell their entire race and be slaves for all eternity. Don't know about Tau, but Mankind would rather die than to live like that.
As for the ensuing blitz, the Imperium would surrender or fight to the last.
A Tau Empire 1/4 the size of the Imperium would be undefeatable. And if Horus was able to lay siege to Terra with far less forces than that, it is no doubt possible the Tau would crush anything in their path due to the fact they would have rediculous technology and resources at that point.
A silly dream from a Tau fanboy. You are forgeting that beside Imperium ( who alone has more than enough power to exterminate you ) Tau would face Chaos Legions, Tyranid hive fleets, Ork WARGHHHH!!!, Eldar raids and Necron attacks in the same time. They wouldn't last for more than a decade...
With far less forces? Horus had with him 10 Space Marine LEGIONS ( every legion counting around 10.000 marines ) and half of entire Imperial army's at that time + almost all Titan legions. And Tau technology fails when compared to the powers of the Warp. Unless you are suggesting that the Old Ones had inferior technology in comparison to the Tau.
I am sorry, but Tau ( for now at least ) are REALLY minor player when it comes to galactic affairs.
The are played as being a minor threat because if Imperial citizens knew a race of creatures with better technology and several victories were slowly invading the Imperium, it would look bad for the MIGHTY image they try to uphold.
Tau are a threat, not the same kind of threat as Nids, Crons, or Chaos.. possibly the worst threat of them all, a better Empire with a promising future in the galaxy.
Overall, the Tau threat may be the worst yet. An Empire using a very similar doctrine that the Emperor employed, when he started his conquest from a humble planet called Earth. That's the same mistake countless xeno empires made when they shrugged off that Emperor guy.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:The are played as being a minor threat because if Imperial citizens knew a race of creatures with better technology and several victories were slowly invading the Imperium, it would look bad for the MIGHTY image they try to uphold.
Victories? Let me see: Gravalax Incident, Nimbosa Crusade, Zeist Campaign, Targa, Kronus, Kaurava....
Only Victory that Tau had over Imperium was Taros, And that was 20:1 battle in Tau favor + Taros PDF + Tau fleet...
Tau are a threat, not the same kind of threat as Nids, Crons, or Chaos.. possibly the worst threat of them all, a better Empire with a promising future in the galaxy.
Overall, the Tau threat may be the worst yet. An Empire using a very similar doctrine that the Emperor employed, when he started his conquest from a humble planet called Earth. That's the same mistake countless xeno empires made when they shrugged off that Emperor guy.
No, it's not the same thing. Humans already colonized much of the galaxy even before the Fall of the Eldar. Emperor has just united them all under one banner.
Tau lack interstellar travel to reach any important Imperial world ( they need at least 1000 years to reach Macragge ), they lack manpower to hold any larger space than this one they already have, and so far they only had business with less colonized worlds with few million Humans. Attacking a Imperial Hive City with billions of citizens and thousand of troops is a few level above present Tau military capabilities, Tau also lack psyhic protection against warp anomalies and they lack life span that would enable them to hold grudge against citizens of the galaxy. What you are saying is like North Korea want to wage war against UN, that's the scale of Tau Empire and Imperium of Mankind. And some Imperial citizens do know about the Tau, and they way: "Join us or we will join you, to us". And none Human planet or state will not tolerate living under foreign regime, you can count on it.
As for Tau conquest, call me when they have technology to go further than 5 light years from their home planet...
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woodbok wrote:
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
If Kroot can be turned, then Kroot will be killed.
Seriously? Someone arguing that Tau can actually win an all out war with the Imperium? or CHAOS?
Remind me on how the CSM pray to Khorne again
They cannot possibly win if the Imperium or a chapter and it's allies decided to say "Hey guys let kill all of this Tau". Tau aren't the owner of the "most advanced technology" that honor belongs to Necron , nor the most numerous troop that belongs to IG/Orks/NIDS, nor the most elite of elite that belong to the SM/CSM/Eldar/DE/Daemon
They need a good number of year to go to Macragge, in which the Imperium can intercept them. They are also going to Macragge , the only race that have given it a fight were NIDS
Yeah the tiny Tau Empire can truley defet the entire Galaxy , yeah their tiny little can defet the Imperium , Chaos , Eldar , Orks , Necrons and the Tyranids.
blood reaper wrote:Yeah the tiny Tau Empire can truley defet the entire Galaxy , yeah their tiny little can defet the Imperium , Chaos , Eldar , Orks , Necrons and the Tyranids.
What BeefCakeSoup mean is that the Tau have a secret weapon to use against the Imperium:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:The are played as being a minor threat because if Imperial citizens knew a race of creatures with better technology and several victories were slowly invading the Imperium, it would look bad for the MIGHTY image they try to uphold.
Tau are a threat, not the same kind of threat as Nids, Crons, or Chaos.. possibly the worst threat of them all, a better Empire with a promising future in the galaxy.
Overall, the Tau threat may be the worst yet. An Empire using a very similar doctrine that the Emperor employed, when he started his conquest from a humble planet called Earth. That's the same mistake countless xeno empires made when they shrugged off that Emperor guy.
Yeah, I think the general consensus is that on a grand scale, Tau are shanked no matter which way you slice it. That may change in a future codex, it may not. That's just the way it is right now.
I think one of the key points in 40k is that everyone looses in the end. Orks are their own nemesis and will never rise into anything lasting. if they conquer all they will eventually start fighting eachother. Chaos is an emotional reflection of the real world: Therefore chaos will wither once the warp-influencing races die out and not a moment before that. Tyranids will eventually run out of stuff to eat....and die. Eldar are dying... nothing new there. The empire is going down the drain one way or the other. Its flawed and will be eaten up by the numberless threats that assail it. The greatest threat however is the Imperium itself. It is its own worst enemy. Chaos didnt cause the heresy. man did. chaos was just along for the ride.
As for tau... really? as if they where ever a major contender to anything. read the fluff: they have enough trouble with handling 10-ish starsystems. superior to what exactly?
I think beefsoupface's point is that it's not about 40k. It's about 41k or 42k when the tau have united hundreds of races under the banner of a truly good empire.
It's a pointless arguement to say that the Tau are a major player now though. Fear stupid people in large groups. And the IoM has a TON of idiots to throw around.
2 things: The tau are not good. They say join us or die, or join us or we force you.
second: The empires they do get under their banner...arent really major contenders. Otherwise we would know of them allready. The tau are strong atm because they can actually reach the area that needs their presence. Once their influence spreads they will be slowed considerably by lacking warp travel on a larger scale then the leap frog jumps they use now.
in short, picking up the dead weight of the universe and passing it off as a prober army is naive to the extreme.
Unfortunately the Tau aren't a real power at the moment. Where the Tau really excel is in advancing. They aren't a threat in thatr they could destroy the IoM, they are a threat in that if you leave them they will quickly grow to a point that they could really cause problems.
I agree with the OP. Think about it, about 20,000 years ago the sudden imergence of masses of human psykers combined with an increasingly decadent eldar empire, feeds the powers in the warp, making the warp so turbulent that even short warp jumps are almost impossible. Their strength continues to grow untill in one huge cataclysm the Eldar empire is obliterated by the birth of Slaanesh. Great Chaos wins...oh wait, maybe not, the Chaos gods feed on emotion in the material realm, psykers and Eldar give off way more of an echo in the immaterium than any other race. So look at the situation now, the prime source of food for the Gods has been wiped out by their greedy new brother Slaanesh, surviving eldar now either where soulstones to keep their souls going to the warp or have gone into hiding in the webway where they can't be touched. Old night is over and most of the surviving human colonies have stayed intact by wiping out or controlling psykers, those worlds lost to rogue sorcerers have mostly burnt themselves out and been destroyed by demonic of xenos invasion. In other words, food is now a lot more scarce for warp entities.
Now it's established that the Chaos powers constantly wax and wane but this was going to be a collosal comedown for them, the Age of Strife was an all you can eat buffet of carnage and now the four have only scraps to sustain them.
The Emperor, had been around for nearly 30,000 years by this point, why did he act so late? Precisely for this reason, for the first time in a long time the Chaos Gods had very little to sink their claws into, now was the best time to strike them by cutting off their food supply for good.
However the Emperors grand plan failed.
Fast forward to 40k, the imperium has to maintain a cruel bloody regime of constant warfare, psykers are needed in their thousands just to keep communication between worlds and billions die everyday just to hold the imperium together. The Chaos Gods now have an infinite supply of energy, thanks to the violent regime of the imperium millions turn to worship chaos to escape the harsh reality of their lives, and in response billions more have to be killed to stop the taint spreading. It is locked in an endless cycle of death and pain, the very thing the Chaos Gods need to grow in influence and strength. Humanity can never win now, it either will stay locked in a war that benefits their enemy or they give up and face extinction. I really don't see how that is not a victory for Chaos. Like the Op said, Chaos doesnt need a big flashy hollywood victory, as long as battles rage and people die, they're getting what they want.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: Like the Op said, Chaos doesnt need a big flashy hollywood victory, as long as battles rage and people die, they're getting what they want.
Same could be said of the Imperium. As long as it survives, and humanity lives on, the Emperor wins. His goal, after all, was to safeguard humanity.
As for the Tau debate, they are not a major threat except on the Eastern Fringe. Even there, they will struggle to expand. Their technology is not greater than that of the Imperium's (or any factions, really (except for the Tyranids)). As for Daemons, I suspect the Tau would falter before a large scale Daemonic invasion. They aren't incorruptible and they do have souls, just not much of a soul presence, so they aren't psychic and Daemons aren't attracted to them. There is, however, no reason a Daemon could not possess or corrupt one given the proper circumstances and motivation.
Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.
Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare. The Imperium doesn't understand how the Tau doctrine works, those who do percieve them as a much larger threat.
The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs.
The fact such a young Empire laughs at Titans speaks for itself. So far, the IoM has used two Titan Legions against the Tau in battles.
Both times the Titans were either destoyed or took losses to the Legion that were deemed unacceptable. When in most battles they would have turned the tide. That alone shines a bright light on mankinds future.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.
Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare. The Imperium doesn't understand how the Tau doctrine works, those who do percieve them as a much larger threat.
The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs.
The Tau using Mantas to counter Titans is like the Imperium purging an entire world just because there's a single bunker full of Tau in the polar region.
Mantas are space vessels, roughly equivalent to the Astartes' Thunderhawk in terms of size and usage, which are used by the Tau as gunships in space combat, with weaponry intended to fill that role and let them punch through Void Shields and damage
The Mantas were used early on to counter Titans, but then around the time of Taros we saw the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 introduced(which is a Tiger Shark packing Manta sized railguns) to try to reduce the risk to the Mantas(which are valuable, in that they can transport an entire Hunter Cadre into combat and are a huge target to Imperial fighters. The Tau had to pull entire air wings off of offensive operations to escort the Mantas into areas where Titans were present. That's not "practical" for the Tau).
The fact such a young Empire laughs at Titans speaks for itself. So far, the IoM has used two Titan Legions against the Tau in battles.
And both times the Tau have had to react to the Titans.
Them redeploying entire air wings to cover Manta Gunships, crippling both their offensive and mobile strike capabilities(offensive from the prospect of losing air wings, mobile strike from the fact that they had to remove the Hunter Cadres which would be using the Mantas for combat deployment) in the first engagement against Titans says anything but "they laugh at Titans".
During Taros, we saw them strip out weaponry from capital ships and Mantas to up-arm Tiger Sharks in an attempt to make the usage of those railguns against Titans(which, let's not forget were just Warhounds) far more practical says once again that they're not "laughing at Titans".
They realize Titans are a serious threat. They treat them as such.
Both times the Titans were either destroyed or took losses to the Legion that were deemed unacceptable. When in most battles they would have turned the tide. That alone shines a bright light on mankinds future.
Any Titan losses are deemed unacceptable. They're venerated machines with an illustrious history, even the Warhounds.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.
Yeah, but they didn't put that much effort into it. They poured more into the Sabbot Worlds Crusade, for instance.
Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare. The Imperium doesn't understand how the Tau doctrine works, those who do percieve them as a much larger threat.
So how are the Tau losing any planets to the Imperium then? How could they possibly be forced to concede any ground if they've got overwhelming technology, tactics and strategy? How has the Imperium even survived this long if it's weaponry is so bad.
The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs.
Maybe not Manta's, but they have other weapons capable of doing so, a lot of factions have battlesuit-type units capable of taking down Terminators and even more can take on Imperial Gaurdsmen.
The fact such a young Empire laughs at Titans speaks for itself. So far, the IoM has used two Titan Legions against the Tau in battles.
Not full Titan Legions, as far as I know. And also merely Warhounds, so I'd love to see how the Tau would fare against an Imperator Titan. Or even Warlords.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Things like plagues, hallucinations, and shielding would be combat multipliers, but they alone wouldn't win a battle against the Tau, especially given the Ethereals mysterious hold on the Tau mind.
Yes, the ethereals control the minds of fellow Tau, yet in the grimdark furutre of 4oK the 'Mind over MAtter' arguement is null and void. So the Fire Warriors would rally around the
ethreal while the plaque eats away at their bodies instead of running from the oncoming horde of plague bearers.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Plus, the current genocide of fluff (GK dex) depicts a single man wandering the warp aimlessly destroying any daemon in his path. If one well trained man can wander their home turf I'm sure a massive technology advanced military can handle them in real space.
Yeah, you do realise the Grey Knights are not just well trained they are the epitomy of Space MArines, the only thing better than them is the Primarchs, Custodians and the emprah himself
BeefCakeSoup wrote:On a side note, I find it odd their hasn't been a major fight between the two, given one represents pure evil, while the other holds a more good guy title.
Tau aren't as good as you believe they are, they effectively enslave and trick populations into following them, when they have nothing left
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blood reaper wrote:
undivided wrote:Somebody's been playing too much Fire Warrior of late, methinks.
Your completly right , Yeah the Tau must laugh at the Ancient Warlord Titans and Great Warmachines of the Imperium that have fought for Centuries.
Yes a game that focuses on one Tau warrior and paints them to be whiter than white
The fact is, the imperium is ancient, and their technology is degrading, getting older. Whens the last time some new tech has come out. (please don't mention the Dreadknight, since you've "oh yeah.. always had that"..)
The tau have been around for a galactic finger snap, and are capable of engaging and destroying Titans. Not bad.
I hate the Dredknight and I don't see it as a good example of Imperial Tech , but Warlord Titans and other great Warmachines can easily destroy Tau. Please don't try using Fire Warrior as a example of amazing Tau as it was a terrible game.
Cottonjaw wrote:The fact is, the imperium is ancient, and their technology is degrading, getting older. Whens the last time some new tech has come out. (please don't mention the Dreadknight, since you've "oh yeah.. always had that"..)
The tau have been around for a galactic finger snap,
The Tau haven't "been around for a galactic finger snap".
They've been in real-space for that, yes.
Don't forget that the Tau had a Warp Storm effectively 'shielding' them for the duration of their technological advancement.
and are capable of engaging and destroying Titans. Not bad.
You know who else is capable of "engaging and destroying Titans"?
Every faction in the 40k universe.
Prior to the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the Tau had no idea of the existence of Titans.
Even then, the only thing the Tau have engaged have been Warhounds, which are Scout Titans.
The Tau, to counter Scout Titans, redeployed the equivalent of a Thunderhawk Gunship.
And even then their Mantas had to have full air wings reassigned to protect them during their assaults on the Warhounds.
Simply put: It's really not that big of a deal that the "Tau can engage and destroy Titans".
The Tau are on their way up. The IoM is rusting.
The Tau are on their way up, sure.
The IoM is far from "rusting" however. They're stagnant, but there are occasional tech advancements(mostly in the fact that they rediscover something).
blood reaper wrote:I hate the Dredknight and I don't see it as a good example of Imperial Tech , but Warlord Titans and other great Warmachines can easily destroy Tau. Please don't try using Fire Warrior as a example of amazing Tau as it was a terrible game.
Tau have their own super heavies.. besides... Apocolypse broadside batteries make short work of titans (relative to other standard heavy support choices).
Chaos did steal a Tau colony and mutated the inhabitants. ( F.Bile did it ). So how again is this Tau "empire" autowinning against chaos?
Can they protect their colonies? Seems not.
Shoot that demon with your railgun. It doesn't matter, the demons returns. Tau can't kill the chaos dwellers on their own plane of existance
which would be the only way. The "stone throwing apes otoh, can.
Tau have a small warp signature, thus their not of interest. But there is nothing to base the claim of incorruptible on.
How do humans kill Chaos?
I know if you just enter into normal life (ie now (2011)) there is not enough feeding Chaos so it just diminishes and dies, but in 40k even Nemesis weapons only banish Daemons, then they regrow in the warp.
The only race I can see winning long term is Crons, as they can't die. but if you think about it:
Necrons conquer galaxy, wiping out all life/C'tan
Rescources, after millions of years, and Gauss, runs out
Crons die
C'tan enter huge battle in which only 1 is victorious.
He either dies of old age (Billions of years (how do you know they can't die of old age? its just never happened) or commits suicide from boredom
Life in Galaxy starts again.
This kind of reminds me of the Mortal Engines series where at the end of Darkling Plain where they all die/Shrike who lives on and 'watches' for millions of years and eventually life restarts again with Humans at basic tech again.
What has been assembled can be disassembled. GK could shatter a demon that hard, his patron may not listen to it begging to regrow.
Its possible to end a "personality" therefore. Still as some sort of energy, chaos isn't dying but transforming at best so if there is a chance
to change it, you have to be able to enter their realm to do it. Humans, or parts thereof can.
Chaos is a paradox, yes, but our view upon time would suggest that C'tan are older or as old as the creatures who became "chaos" are.
Existing that long does not confirm eternal life. It proves they were able to stay for a while...
But, the chaos demon codex stated that "final" victory of 1 chaos god over his 3 contenders would end chaos.
I'd assume the highest chance of success would have a Dragon+Emprah alliance, sharing the tech and shutting off the warp.
The evolution of psykers is a burden too, so who needs psykers if you got the tools to secure realspace almost eternally.?
Humans crunchie on outside chewy on the inside
Orks crunchie on outside chewy on the inside
Tau Humans crunchie on outside chewy on the inside
Eldar crunchie on outside chewy on the inside
More please.
- Hive Mind tweet.
I enjoy hearing some of the more passionate reasoning behind the debate. Good points.
I agree with some, but disagree with others.
1. Real space and Warp timelines - Tau spent 6,000 years surrounded by a warp storm according to Imperial Calendars.
This time wasn't a DBZ time freeze. If it was, the Tau would of drastically slowed down in technological advancement, but they did not.
2. In regards to the Tau vs IoM, the IoM saw a threat and percieved it only second to Nids in rapid rise to prominence in the galaxy. This alone proves the threat that Tau pose. Fact is, they are more technologically advanced than humans. In war, technology is paramount, in 40K, Tau have a distinct advantage. Manta's were the first answer to combating Titans, the very fact that there was even an answer to such amazing power speaks for itself. The fact that new technology was designed in short order to "hunt" Titans proves even further how deadly the Tau capacity for war is.
3. The universal debate for Tau vs IoM is numbers and FTL. Both are advantages the Imperium has, yet both have distinct drawbacks. The Tau advantages are technology and doctrine, neither of which has any drawbacks. Can the Imperium crush the Tau? With Horus leading the campaign in pre-heresy times, yes. Now? No, not fluff armor, but simply no. The Tau have taken on the might of the Imperium on several different occasions. Despite many people thinking this was but a fraction of what the IoM could do, it's what they did. As in many wars, they underestimanted an enemy they knew little about, which makes sense, you could live your whole life in 40K and never even hear about the Tau. Until the IoM restructures itself in a more effective manner, you can expect countless more "blunders" in campaigns against a well organzied enemy. Taros highlights how the IoM had the numbers to crush the Tau, but lacked supplies, support, and even troops in several battles that massively nerfed their fighting abilities on the ground.
4. Tau vs Chaos. While Chaos energies can harm the Tau, they have to battle Tau sciences, which are equally amazing. This wouldn't negate all of the power of Chaos by any means, but it would make for a very different fight for Chaos. It would be an interesting fight for sure, since Tau minds are not able to be corrupted by the warp, infact according to GW it has never happened to a single Tau. So a major part of the Chaos doctrine would be negated by the fact they couldn't use half of each primary gods power, seduction to weakness in Anger, Lust, Scheming, or the warm embrace of Sickness. In raw power, Fire Caste Army vs Daemons it would be a toss up to how many invulns daemons can make against a whole lot of damaging weapons. CSM might prove more effective, but again, they use an ancient imperial doctrine in war augmented with nerfed Chaos advantages against Tau.
I really hope they make a new dex and settle some of the theories out there, I think Tau have a lot to prove and the Imperium needs a more decisive battle to base any real outcomes on. Because so far, the Tau are looking really good on the galactic warfare scene at the IoMs expense.
I enjoy hearing some of the more passionate reasoning behind the debate. Good points.
I agree with some, but disagree with others.
1. Real space and Warp timelines - Tau spent 6,000 years surrounded by a warp storm according to Imperial Calendars.
This time wasn't a DBZ time freeze. If it was, the Tau would of drastically slowed down in technological advancement, but they did not.
Nobody said it was a "time freeze".
But for the entirety of that 6000 years, the Tau were effectively isolated from the rest of the universe at large and operating on a different timeframe. There was no threat to them during that time, because none could reach them.
We don't have a Tau calendar to look at, but that 6000 years in 'realspace' could have effectively been '36,000' years in the Warp.
2. In regards to the Tau vs IoM, the IoM saw a threat and percieved it only second to Nids in rapid rise to prominence in the galaxy.
...What? The Imperium of Man didn't know who the Tau were.
They were originally slated for extermination(before that whole Warp storm that protected the Tau) when they were still in their Stone Age for all intents and purposes.
It wasn't because "the IoM saw a threat".
It's because the IoM saw a habitable system, with resources. They gave exterminating the Tau no more thought than you or I would give to demolishing anthills to build a new home.
This alone proves the threat that Tau pose. Fact is, they are more technologically advanced than humans. In war, technology is paramount, in 40K, Tau have a distinct advantage.
And by all regards, Tau are still in their technological infancy when compared to the Eldar or even the Imperium.
They may have a few unique things, but many of those things have already been used by the Eldar and Imperium--and been discarded because they quickly became outmoded.
Mantas were the first answer to combating Titans, the very fact that there was even an answer to such amazing power speaks for itself. The fact that new technology was designed in short order to "hunt" Titans proves even further how deadly the Tau capacity for war is.
The Mantas weren't the "first answer to combating Titans"(and again: Warhound Titans. They might as well been fighting Knights for all the 'sheer effectiveness' of the Warhound). They were a stopgap measure, which required them to, once again, devote massive resources to protect a flying platform that could be taken down by Hydra fire or coordinated interceptor strikes from the Imperial Navy.
Every time the Mantas were brought in to deal with a Warhound, the Tau effectively had to shut down their warmaking capabilities in another front just to make sure the Mantas weren't shot down.
As to the "new technology designed in short order to hunt Titans proving how deadly the Tau capacity for war is" part...
No, it doesn't. Because there wasn't "new technology designed in short order to hunt Titans".
They placed existing technology on a new platform.
It's like the upgunning of Shermans to the Sherman 'Firefly' variant when the Allies faced heavier German tanks.
3. The universal debate for Tau vs IoM is numbers and FTL. Both are advantages the Imperium has, yet both have distinct drawbacks.
The Imperium is drawing upon thousands and thousands and thousands of systems.
The Tau are in the dozens, maybe hundreds.
The sheer amount of territory being held by the Imperium is against them, sure.
But at the same time, the Tau cannot right now move beyond their little Empire.
It's why the Imperium is content to let them stay there, while more pressing concerns are out there.
The Tau advantages are technology and doctrine, neither of which has any drawbacks.
You mean the doctrine which calls for them to completely fall back whenever they begin taking casualties?
The Tau have no stomach for a stand-up, knockdown drag-out slugfest that the Imperium does on a daily basis.
Can the Imperium crush the Tau? With Horus leading the campaign in pre-heresy times, yes. Now? No, not fluff armor, but simply no.
Why would Horus need to be involved? The Tau aren't brilliant strategists, nor are they nearly as big of a threat as the Tau players like to build them up as.
The Tau have taken on the might of the Imperium on several different occasions. Despite many people thinking this was but a fraction of what the IoM could do, it's what they did.
And despite many people thinking that "weathering a Crusade" means that they've "taken on the might of the Imperium", the Imperium can call any sized force a 'Crusade'.
As in many wars, they underestimanted an enemy they knew little about, which makes sense, you could live your whole life in 40K and never even hear about the Tau. Until the IoM restructures itself in a more effective manner, you can expect countless more "blunders" in campaigns against a well organzied enemy.
You mean until the IoM actually devotes enough resources to the matter.
The forces we saw deployed during the Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' were a pittance, at best. We see more troops and equipment in a single week of battle at the Cadian Gate(and that's when there's NOT a Black Crusade going on!) as the entirety of the Damocles 'Crusade'.
Taros highlights how the IoM had the numbers to crush the Tau, but lacked supplies, support, and even troops in several battles that massively nerfed their fighting abilities on the ground.
Taros effectively had something like half of the force scheduled for transit never arrive, alongside of the supplies and support that was supposed to be there.
And you really are discounting the most effective tool the Tau had at their disposal on Taros. The fact that it was a desert world played to the Tau's strengths. They evolved on a planet not entirely unlike Taros, their bodies are adapted to that kind of environment, and they controlled the most vital resource for desert warfare: water treatment plants.
You're also discounting the fact that the planet's PDF turned traitor and joined them, taking the anti-ship batteries and the like with them effectively keeping the Imperial vessels from being right on stand-by for the first portion of the campaign.
4. Tau vs Chaos. While Chaos energies can harm the Tau, they have to battle Tau sciences, which are equally amazing. This wouldn't negate all of the power of Chaos by any means, but it would make for a very different fight for Chaos. It would be an interesting fight for sure, since Tau minds are not able to be corrupted by the warp, infact according to GW it has never happened to a single Tau. So a major part of the Chaos doctrine would be negated by the fact they couldn't use half of each primary gods power, seduction to weakness in Anger, Lust, Scheming, or the warm embrace of Sickness. In raw power, Fire Caste Army vs Daemons it would be a toss up to how many invulns daemons can make against a whole lot of damaging weapons. CSM might prove more effective, but again, they use an ancient imperial doctrine in war augmented with nerfed Chaos advantages against Tau.
You don't need Chaos energies to corrupt the Tau with the amount of humanity that Tau has taken into their Empire.
They've, for all intents and purposes, taken the viper to their chest.
I really hope they make a new dex and settle some of the theories out there, I think Tau have a lot to prove and the Imperium needs a more decisive battle to base any real outcomes on. Because so far, the Tau are looking really good on the galactic warfare scene at the IoMs expense.
Good for the Tau.
We could always devote a 'Purge the Tau' weekend if they really think they need it...
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
1. Real space and Warp timelines - Tau spent 6,000 years surrounded by a warp storm according to Imperial Calendars.
This time wasn't a DBZ time freeze. If it was, the Tau would of drastically slowed down in technological advancement, but they did not.
Time moved on slower in realspace you know....
so how about telling us who put that warpstorm there?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
2. In regards to the Tau vs IoM, the IoM saw a threat and percieved it only second to Nids in rapid rise to prominence in the galaxy. This alone proves the threat that Tau pose. Fact is, they are more technologically advanced than humans. In war, technology is paramount, in 40K, Tau have a distinct advantage.
Tau are a threat to themselves. As they want to rule where they should hope the IoM stays and takes the brunt of the fighting for another
10 millenia.
Your "fact" of more advanced tech has been refuted so often, it isn't worth doing again.
In a war, against nids, Tau have failed.Because of relying on Tech. The nids simply adapted faster. Seems the advantage of the Tau is:
-other species save their asses from nids. ( necrons, eldar, humans,etc ). Until they understand this won't last, it is most likely to late.
-last time I've checked, age of strife was triggered by heavy reliance on tech. Can wait until these Tau stumble......
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
3. The universal debate for Tau vs IoM is numbers and FTL. Both are advantages the Imperium has, yet both have distinct drawbacks. The Tau advantages are technology and doctrine, neither of which has any drawbacks. Can the Imperium crush the Tau? With Horus leading the campaign in pre-heresy times, yes.
Nice. Drawbacks for everyone except you.
Doctrine is inferior to tactics we already use today. Got any copy of Tactica imperialis? no?
No FTL to leave your small pond = imprisonment. But I am sure the creator of the warpstorm and the etherals like is so, "just as planned"...
Why should the IoM need Horus? And how? Pre-heresy were no Tau. Are these other marines not kicking your Tau arses hard enough?
Excuse me if I did cut out the fanboi part of your N3.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
4. Tau vs Chaos. While Chaos energies can harm the Tau, they have to battle Tau sciences, which are equally amazing. This wouldn't negate all of the power of Chaos by any means, but it would make for a very different fight for Chaos. It would be an interesting fight for sure, since Tau minds are not able to be corrupted by the warp, infact according to GW it has never happened to a single Tau. So a major part of the Chaos doctrine would be negated by the fact they couldn't use half of each primary gods power, seduction to weakness in Anger, Lust, Scheming, or the warm embrace of Sickness. In raw power, Fire Caste Army vs Daemons it would be a toss up to how many invulns daemons can make against a whole lot of damaging weapons.
Your hell bent on doctrines aren't you?
Tau aren't soulless, so still fall...
Chaos just mutates them, sickenes them, turns up at CC range, breaks their morale, and won't play like your ideal gaming setup IRL.
In a background based battle, it lasts more than 6 turns and demons return and return and return.....
Without the ability to shut them off ( need psykers ) you get swarmed by endless hordes.
Remember: eldar go for "close the gates" as do humans, Ctan, etc. since thats the only way. Railguns can't harm a warprift....
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I really hope they make a new dex and settle some of the theories out there, I think Tau have a lot to prove and the Imperium needs a more decisive battle to base any real outcomes on. Because so far, the Tau are looking really good on the galactic warfare scene at the IoMs expense.
Cottonjaw wrote:I think beefsoupface's point is that it's not about 40k. It's about 41k or 42k when the tau have united hundreds of races under the banner of a truly good empire.
It's a pointless arguement to say that the Tau are a major player now though. Fear stupid people in large groups. And the IoM has a TON of idiots to throw around.
What "hundred of races?" around Tau there is only Humans, Tyranids, Necrons and Orks. There are no other races near the Tau Empire, and judging by their lack of warp travel - there will never be.
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BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.
Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare. The Imperium doesn't understand how the Tau doctrine works, those who do percieve them as a much larger threat.
The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs.
The fact such a young Empire laughs at Titans speaks for itself. So far, the IoM has used two Titan Legions against the Tau in battles.
Both times the Titans were either destoyed or took losses to the Legion that were deemed unacceptable. When in most battles they would have turned the tide. That alone shines a bright light on mankinds future.
Yeah a real "empire" with all their 10 star systems... And Imperium has a really wise man that are alive since long the Tau civilization even existed. Tau have Manta - Imperium has Emperor Titans, Tau have Battlesuits - Imperium has Grey Knight Terminators, Tau have Pulse Rifles - Imperium has a ton of ordinance. And Tau only destroyed 10 Imperial Titans, all Warhound and use a lot of strategic reserves to do that. One Titan Legion has 30+ Titans, Imperium have countless Legions of Titans in the field...
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Cottonjaw wrote:The fact is, the imperium is ancient, and their technology is degrading, getting older. Whens the last time some new tech has come out. (please don't mention the Dreadknight, since you've "oh yeah.. always had that"..)
The tau have been around for a galactic finger snap, and are capable of engaging and destroying Titans. Not bad.
The Tau are on their way up. The IoM is rusting.
And the Tyranids are on the move, as well as Necron, Eldar, DArk Eldar, Chaos, Orks, Deamons....
When Tau have that many opponents and if they are still alive they can call us....
Cottonjaw wrote:The fact is, the imperium is ancient, and their technology is degrading, getting older. Whens the last time some new tech has come out.
Um... they've already indoctrinated the Kroot and the Vespid in what... a few years? The deimurgh are rumored to be next. It's not unlikely that smaller, less powerful races will want to band together under the banner of the greater good.
I enjoy hearing some of the more passionate reasoning behind the debate. Good points.
I agree with some, but disagree with others.
1. Real space and Warp timelines - Tau spent 6,000 years surrounded by a warp storm according to Imperial Calendars.
This time wasn't a DBZ time freeze. If it was, the Tau would of drastically slowed down in technological advancement, but they did not.
2. In regards to the Tau vs IoM, the IoM saw a threat and percieved it only second to Nids in rapid rise to prominence in the galaxy. This alone proves the threat that Tau pose. Fact is, they are more technologically advanced than humans. In war, technology is paramount, in 40K, Tau have a distinct advantage. Manta's were the first answer to combating Titans, the very fact that there was even an answer to such amazing power speaks for itself. The fact that new technology was designed in short order to "hunt" Titans proves even further how deadly the Tau capacity for war is.
3. The universal debate for Tau vs IoM is numbers and FTL. Both are advantages the Imperium has, yet both have distinct drawbacks. The Tau advantages are technology and doctrine, neither of which has any drawbacks. Can the Imperium crush the Tau? With Horus leading the campaign in pre-heresy times, yes. Now? No, not fluff armor, but simply no. The Tau have taken on the might of the Imperium on several different occasions. Despite many people thinking this was but a fraction of what the IoM could do, it's what they did. As in many wars, they underestimanted an enemy they knew little about, which makes sense, you could live your whole life in 40K and never even hear about the Tau. Until the IoM restructures itself in a more effective manner, you can expect countless more "blunders" in campaigns against a well organzied enemy. Taros highlights how the IoM had the numbers to crush the Tau, but lacked supplies, support, and even troops in several battles that massively nerfed their fighting abilities on the ground.
4. Tau vs Chaos. While Chaos energies can harm the Tau, they have to battle Tau sciences, which are equally amazing. This wouldn't negate all of the power of Chaos by any means, but it would make for a very different fight for Chaos. It would be an interesting fight for sure, since Tau minds are not able to be corrupted by the warp, infact according to GW it has never happened to a single Tau. So a major part of the Chaos doctrine would be negated by the fact they couldn't use half of each primary gods power, seduction to weakness in Anger, Lust, Scheming, or the warm embrace of Sickness. In raw power, Fire Caste Army vs Daemons it would be a toss up to how many invulns daemons can make against a whole lot of damaging weapons. CSM might prove more effective, but again, they use an ancient imperial doctrine in war augmented with nerfed Chaos advantages against Tau.
I really hope they make a new dex and settle some of the theories out there, I think Tau have a lot to prove and the Imperium needs a more decisive battle to base any real outcomes on. Because so far, the Tau are looking really good on the galactic warfare scene at the IoMs expense.
Man, you really need a break. Tau are not a threat to the Imperium. They are a little bug trying to take on Elephant. Their technology is nothing compared to the real power machines of the Imperium and other highly advanced races ( Eldar, Necrons ). And in every sci-fi, fantasy wse... MAGIC IS ALWAYS >>>> TECHNOLOGY. As proven when Imperium tech is having contact with the warp, Tau tech would probably break down near the EoT. And I really hope they continue the story where Imperium decide to simply fortify all worlds bordering the Tau so that they can be left alone, surrounded from all sides and left to die, as they are not fit to hold 10 star systems - not to mention being pushed back several times already.
And please, throw Fire Warrior in recucle bin and buy Space Marine in August. It is more realistic anyway
BeefCakeSoup wrote:The are played as being a minor threat because if Imperial citizens knew a race of creatures with better technology and several victories were slowly invading the Imperium, it would look bad for the MIGHTY image they try to uphold.
Tau are a threat, not the same kind of threat as Nids, Crons, or Chaos.. possibly the worst threat of them all, a better Empire with a promising future in the galaxy.
Overall, the Tau threat may be the worst yet. An Empire using a very similar doctrine that the Emperor employed, when he started his conquest from a humble planet called Earth. That's the same mistake countless xeno empires made when they shrugged off that Emperor guy.
This reminds me of a part in the book xenology.
Basically, an ethereal is getting interrogated, all the while going on about how everyone loves unification and the greater good and all that. The interrogator brings up a point that not everyone wants to be unified, and those that don't get killed. The ethereal states that it's a necessity. After this, the interrogator bring up O'Shavah. Goes on to talk about how he was a great warrior, and excelled in the art of battle. At some point he was sent off to reclaim some colonies with an ethereal. Along the way, the ethereal gets killed. As you say, being part of the greater good and all that, he would seek to bring peace and unification to all and continue the quest for harmony. Only he doesn't. He starts his own empire without the ethereals telling him what to do.
"Ralei - You said it yourself Aun (the ethereal), why should we rail against that which makes the most sense? Well maybe it only makes sense while you lot are in charge"
So yeah, there is something very wrong with your "better empire".
BeefCakeSoup, all of your plans are totally "best possible outcome" for Tau, without considering any other possible outcome.
What happens if a big warp rift opens in the middle of the Tau empire?
What happens if a particularly Waaagh hits them, or woe betide, if GHAZGKULL shows up with his billions of merry men?
The technology thing is dubious too. Necrons, definetly and possibly Eldar (both Dark and craftworld) are ahead of them technologically.
Really, you just seem to think that probably one of the least powerful and influential empires in the entire setting have to win just because they've got some big guns.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Chaos will never defeat the Tau Empire.
Tau don't fall to the Gods of the Warp.
Once the Empire brings to bear it's full military might against the pathetic stone throwing apes of the Imperium, they will bring a million Railguns to bear on anything that dares leave the warp.
All 4 Gods sitting in a pig pen of warp filth as the smallest, most powerful, technologically advanced Empire ever to exist wipes out the threat of corruption by merely being incorruptible.
Yet the Tau does not expand...Matter of fact it looses plaents to Chaos and Imperium in times, and Ill never forget the time when the Chaos Skull Takers took over the Tau little precious colony. Oh and tell me what will that plasma fire do against an army of Death Guards?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Chaos will never defeat the Tau Empire.
Tau don't fall to the Gods of the Warp.
Once the Empire brings to bear it's full military might against the pathetic stone throwing apes of the Imperium, they will bring a million Railguns to bear on anything that dares leave the warp.
All 4 Gods sitting in a pig pen of warp filth as the smallest, most powerful, technologically advanced Empire ever to exist wipes out the threat of corruption by merely being incorruptible.
3 reasons why this is wrong.
1. By slaughtering their enemies Tau feed Korne.
2. As stated earlier, Tau are killable, just not corruptable.
3. Tau are not the most advanced fighting race, Eldar are.
Avatar 720 wrote:It is the verge of endgame, where there is an eternal stalemate for game reasons; if you timeline were to continue, then every army's endgame would start:
IoM: The Emperor would die and be re-born and the loyal Primarches would return
Chaos: Cadia would fall and the Eye of Terror would be opened by destroying the Pylons and another Heresy-esque assault on the Imperium of Man would start
Eldar: The Phoenix Lords would come together for the Rhana Dandra
Tyranids: The rest of Tyranid invasion force would enter the galaxy
Necrons: All Tomb Worlds would wake up simultaneously and the Void Dragon inside Mars would awaken
Tau: Unknown Endgame, possibly something to do with the Eathereals e.g. a possible link to the Old Ones?
Orks: One Warboss will rise up and unite the entire race under his banner
Dark Eldar are the exception to the rule, IMO. They're the only race who are happy with their current situation. The only thing that could really make their life better is if there was no Slaanesh. Otherwise, they're fairly happy in the Webway.
Cottonjaw wrote:Um... they've already indoctrinated the Kroot and the Vespid in what... a few years? The deimurgh are rumored to be next. It's not unlikely that smaller, less powerful races will want to band together under the banner of the greater good.
So that's two then. Both have maybe a couple of planets at the most, adding to the Tau's fifteen systems. Wow, what an Empire eh? Next to the BILLIONS in the IoM.
I don't hate the Tau, I like their background, but they pose the same threat as this wasp I killed today. Annoying for about a minute, until I rolled up my latest White Dwarf and obliterated it against my window. I'm the IoM, my WD is a full IoM crusade, the Wasp is the Tau.
Actually, I'd say Orks are pretty much the only race happy with their current situations; so long as there's war they're happy and well... there's plenty of war.
Dark Eldar whilst seemingly happier than many other races would still much prefer to have their own Empire and freedom rather than the Webway, but beggars can't be choosers.
Also, I'd say that Tau are no-where near the threat or power that their supporters make them out to be, by a LONG way. I would agree with the OP that Chaos does seem to be winning (as the Cabal predicted) and the other races - except the Necrons - are doing nothing to change this, should other races such as the Orks and Tyranids (not the Tau) keep attacking the Imperium then they're likely to stagnate and remain as they are or get weaker and when the Imperium is at its weakest, you can be sure Chaos will be there to strike.
I'd say for now the Imperium is all powerful and in terms of the HH it does appear that Chaos has won, but there are many things that could change, be it in Chaos' favour or not.
Feh, the Horus Heresy was ten thousand years ago and they haven't even gotten past Cadia since. Chaos is a serious threat not from without but from within.
Seriously, how can you think Tau are the end all awesome sauce win it all race. There are so many problems with this.
No warp travel = slow moving.
VERY small numbers when compared to EVERYONE else. Even eldar have more people. Yeah so they indoctrinate other races, but these other races are corruptable. Even the Tau might be, we just don't know.
Nothing in their arsenal is more powerful than anything. You have raid guns? Eldar have D-cannons. You have Manta? IoM have exterminatus. Chaos can destroy entire star systems.
On that note. If the alien becomes that much of a threat, the Ordos will order Exterminatus and Tau's precious planets will be nothing but baren waste.
Let's take history and some other fiction to explain why Tau would get ROFLSTOMPED by eveyone out there.
WWII: Japan has an empire. They have completely conquored the Pacific Ocean, save for one place. They were defeating everyone they came in contact with. They believed that their empire could not be stopped. Such was the dedication to the empire that they would willingly sacrifice their own lives for... the greater good. Sound familiar? Gee it's kinda funny that Tau are actually designed to appeal to anime lovers... Then they got greedy and decided they wanted that one place they didn't have and "woke the sleeping giant." Until then the USA (Imperium) had no need to bother themselves with Japan (Tau). But now it's personaly. The US (IoM) brought all of their might against the caparitively tiny empire and the War Machine pushed in and eventually ordered Exterminatus (Nukes) to be dropped onto their homeland.
Stargate Atlantis: I'll keep this one short. The much more technilogically advanced Ancients faught a war against the endless hordes of their enemy and eventually they were pushed completely back to their home Atlantis where their shields held out for a very long time. Eventually they realized that they could not win, sunk the city, and used the Stargate to retreat back to the Milky Way Galaxy. There's one problem with this.... Tau don't have stargates. Even if it is true that their technology is far more advanced than anyone elses (which I will firmly deny). There's no way they can withstand the endless hordes or nids, orks, or chaos if there was a sustained assault. Can you imagine the devistation if the next Black Crusade were to be dirrected against the Tau? There'd be nothing left.
Also someone said something about Draigo traveling the warp and endlessly slaughtering daemon after daemon and compared this to a "well trained soldier." ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? Draigo, first off, is a Grey Knight. They are trained SPECIFICALLY to handle daemons and the warp so that they are not only completely uncorruptable, but they can withstand the terrors of the warp. Just mearly glancing into the warp by a lesser person can bring their mind crashing down. Second, a Grey Knight's gene seed probably comes DIRECTLY from the Emperor. Third, he's not even just a grey knight, he is the Supreme Grand Master, he is THE Grey Knight. There are no other Grey Knights before him. So comparing him to even the most powerful Tau warrior is laughable at best. It is infact insulting.
Just remember that one day your beloved empire will fall. It has an end, where as Chaos does not for only Chaos is eternal.
Feh, the Horus Heresy was ten thousand years ago and they haven't even gotten past Cadia since. Chaos is a serious threat not from without but from within.
Chaos worshipers aren't happy but chaos daemons and the gods love it the way it is. The imperium is feeding them much better than humanity would if chaos was in control.
Again, I appreciate the replies, they are well thought out and I learn much about Imperial perspective.
I will bring the Technology issue to the table in a format I hope is more understanding and less vague.
First I will start by addressing the basics!
The Tau Doctrine of War
The Tau doctrine of warfare is very similar to modern day American SF, SEALS, Rangers or U.K. Royal Marines. They plan careful engagements with set objectives, execute the mission then withdraw once completed. This then allows a gap for the enemy to advance, this is planned by the Tau, as they rely on these missions to constantly be executed despite enemy territory gains. They view a win as the enemy defeated, even if it means up until the last part of the battle, they are losing massive ground, so long as they hold key points. Their doctrine isn't about slugging it out, it's about finesse and execution.
During the Damocles Gulf, they over-extended seasoned generals and astartes by using this tactic. What seemed like a rapid victory march turned into a bloody stalemate. The Tau weren't running from an amazing force they couldn't match fire power against, they were setting a logistical trap along a long array of harrassment lines, while funneling the enemy into a no-win situation in enemy space.
Manta's weren't taken out of desperation in a last ditch effort, they were waiting for the Titans to be away from good troop lines with hydra support. Tau act with purpose, this always tends to look like cowardice because the opposition wants to fight a "manly" battle in his favor.
Technology - Sorry for making this so vague, I should have been more clear.
In 40K Technology is a complex ring of who has what. Even Orkz boast some crafty tech for their part. In terms of an overall view, the Tau have superior weapons for war in direct comparison to the IoM. For one, they strictly employ anti-grav armor on the battlefield and host a variety of Railshots that suck leman russ crews out of holes the size of golf balls. The IoM has no illusion of this, overall the best tech in their empire is reserved for a select few, while they may have some amazing tech hidden or in rare supply, things like lascannons are a day late and a dollar short in STR and AP compared to a Rail shot. For their part, the Imperium does have a VERY impressive line of barrage weaponry.
A Tau example of weaponry - Pulse Rifle
Their most standard Tau infantry rifle, is capable of popping Rhinos. I feel this best represents the comparison as a whole. Imagine holding a rifle and blowing up an APC. Then knowing every guy to your left and right is holding the same weapon or something better. Unless he is a kroot, then you pity him, because he is using something akin to a crappy bolter with slightly worse armor pen.
Magic Magic? Magic is nice! Tau do not have magic, but thus far is hasn't been anything they need or need to defend against, maybe it will be someday. When that day comes on a large enough scale I'm sure the Tau will find counters using the best minds for the job. For now, random fights here and there aren't really a concern. Though it could quickly become one if a proper enemy fought them.
Also,
The threat percieved of the Tau was from Genetor Secundus, Zachary Santiago - Tau Dex P20.
OK, your example. Yes, Pulse Rifles are nice. Except fire warriors, the users of said Pulse Rifles are far rarer than, say, a guardsman and his lasgun. Now, compare that different. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if it was 10:1. Now, can that pulse rifle kill 10 guardsmen in the same time it takes 10 guardsmen to kill a fire warrior?
Cerebrium wrote:OK, your example. Yes, Pulse Rifles are nice. Except fire warriors, the users of said Pulse Rifles are far rarer than, say, a guardsman and his lasgun. Now, compare that different. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if it was 10:1. Now, can that pulse rifle kill 10 guardsmen in the same time it takes 10 guardsmen to kill a fire warrior?
Correct!
Finally someone who gets it haha
Yes, the guard can outshoot the one FW! Thing is, the doctrine comes into play. They are shooting the guard farther out than the guard can return fire. At that point the FWs withdraw and plan a second attack at the squad level. It fits into the Cadre's larger plan for the battle. Imperial players tend to think this is a retreat, infact, it is a clever way to outgun an opponent with greater volume of fire. It's a clever tactic often mistaken for a retreat. The hook is set and the guard advance only to be engaged again out of range or by a second squad lying in wait.
You really do love those bloody doctrines, don't you? Except they only REALLY work when you fight an enemy who ALSO uses a doctrine. Now, 2 of the biggest threats to the Tau don't use anything CLOSE to a doctrine, the orks and the Tyranids. I'm not sure how you're going to plan a layered defence against foes who can either just drop straight from space directly on top of your delicate plan, or just break your line with numbers alone.
Hawkward wrote:The Emperor is a catatonic corpse, incapable of either physically fighting the Chaos gods or dying and becoming one of them.
The Imperium has become fanatical and religious, the precise opposite of what the Emperor intended.
Technology has stagnated, and as alien and supernatural threats loom humanity drifts deeper and deeper into despair - thus feeding Nurgle.
The Imperium is in a constant state of war and bloodshed, hateful against anything and everything - thus feeding Khorne.
Those at the highest levels of the Imperium scheme and plot and hoard knowledge - thus feeding Tzeentch.
Those same schemers and aristocrats sate their desires in extravagant ways as the masses hunger and lust for the pleasures denied to them - thus feeding Slaanesh.
Abaddon the Despoiler leads Crusade after Crusade, never winning but always posing enough of a threat to terrorize the entire Imperium.
Chaos won the Horus Heresy. It just didn't win in the spectacular, apocalyptic way everyone expected. Horus didn't need to slay the Emperor. Abaddon didn't have to sit on the Golden Throne. Cadia didn't have to be overrun and pillaged. Terra didn't have to burn. The Ecclesiarchy didn't have to bow to Chaos. That would have made it all too easy, too messy. Chaos won in an insidious and tidy way, a way that will forever ensure its dominance over the Galaxy. It allows humanity to live, feeding it with its emotions and lusts without the species even knowing.
Humanity spirals into a never-ending hell of hatred and ignorance, dying not with a triumphant final battle, but instead with a futile whimper of defiance, a whimper that is drowned out by the laughter of thirsting gods.
Chaos won.
I've been trying to write something like this for months. You sir, win the internet. Here's thirteen cheese tokens for you to spend how you like:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Again, I appreciate the replies, they are well thought out and I learn much about Imperial perspective.
I will bring the Technology issue to the table in a format I hope is more understanding and less vague.
First I will start by addressing the basics!
The Tau Doctrine of War
The Tau doctrine of warfare is very similar to modern day American SF, SEALS, Rangers or U.K. Royal Marines. They plan careful engagements with set objectives, execute the mission then withdraw once completed. This then allows a gap for the enemy to advance, this is planned by the Tau, as they rely on these missions to constantly be executed despite enemy territory gains. They view a win as the enemy defeated, even if it means up until the last part of the battle, they are losing massive ground, so long as they hold key points. Their doctrine isn't about slugging it out, it's about finesse and execution.
And how often to modern day SF operations go off without a hitch?
The Tau method of warfare is inflexible and rigid, with every part of the plan having to go off perfectly or the entire thing spins off the wheels.
When their plans get fethed, they disengage and plan anew--but in that time they almost always regroup and are vulnerable to orbital assets--which the Navy has in spades, but were not really utilized during the Damocles 'Crusade'.
During the Damocles Gulf, they over-extended seasoned generals and astartes by using this tactic.
Very few members of the Guard command structure were seasoned, and practically none had experience fighting the Tau.
There was also far less of an Astartes presence than Tau fans like to point out. The Damocles Crusade had, at best, maybe a company or two worth of Astartes operating throughout the entirety of the Damocles Gulf.
What seemed like a rapid victory march turned into a bloody stalemate. The Tau weren't running from an amazing force they couldn't match fire power against, they were setting a logistical trap along a long array of harrassment lines, while funneling the enemy into a no-win situation in enemy space.
You're putting far too much idealism into the behavior of the Tau.
The Tau were pulling those same tactics on the outer worlds of the Tau Empire, and being crushed left and right.
It wasn't until the Damocles Crusade hit one of the 'Inner Sphere' worlds that the tide changed--and that purely came down to the fact that the Imperium was assaulting a defended position, with established airbases, defensive structures, etc.
Mantas weren't taken out of desperation in a last ditch effort, they were waiting for the Titans to be away from good troop lines with hydra support.
No, they really weren't.
Mantas were pulled from their role of intercontinental transports for entire Hunter Cadres(offsetting ground offensives) and constantly harassing Imperial Troop Ships in orbit to engage a Manciple of Warhound Scout Titans. Add in entire air wings being pulled from providing cover to ground forces, ground forces having to be mobilized to strike at Imperial airbases, orbital assets to be placed to prevent scrambling of Imperial fighters from carriers, and you get a pretty costly operation.
That reeks of "desperation" and a "last ditch effort".
Tau act with purpose, this always tends to look like cowardice because the opposition wants to fight a "manly" battle in his favor.
It has nothing to do with cowardice. It all comes down to pragmatism. The Tau are pragmatists, much like the Eldar. They don't have the bodies to put into the meat grinder like the Imperium does.
And more often than not this supposed "purpose" the Tau have exhibited is merely survival.
Technology - Sorry for making this so vague, I should have been more clear.
In 40K Technology is a complex ring of who has what. Even Orkz boast some crafty tech for their part. In terms of an overall view, the Tau have superior weapons for war in direct comparison to the IoM. For one, they strictly employ anti-grav armor on the battlefield
Anti-grav armor isn't really all it's cracked up to be. The only upside it has is mobility, everything else it has(crafting the machinery, the amount of armor and armament it can carry, troop support, etc) is in fact a downside.
and host a variety of Railshots that suck leman russ crews out of holes the size of golf balls.
Yeah...it's only the Hammerheads and upward that "host a variety of Railshots that suck Leman Russ crews out of holes the size of golf balls".
The Broadsides can damage Imperial tanks, no doubt. But just like Hammerheads, Skyrays, and Devilfish--they're fragile if they can't withdraw or if they don't have infantry support.
You will not see the Tau equivalent of an all-tank formation, simply because their equipment is far, far, far too fragile.
The IoM has no illusion of this, overall the best tech in their empire is reserved for a select few, while they may have some amazing tech hidden or in rare supply, things like lascannons are a day late and a dollar short in STR and AP compared to a Rail shot. For their part, the Imperium does have a VERY impressive line of barrage weaponry.
Lascannons don't need to "compare to a railshot".
They just need to do their job.
The Imperial way of war doesn't rely on every single part having to work in perfect harmony or the plan completely goes awry. More often than not, it deals with improvisation and using the tools at hand.
A Tau example of weaponry - Pulse Rifle
Their most standard Tau infantry rifle, is capable of popping Rhinos. I feel this best represents the comparison as a whole. Imagine holding a rifle and blowing up an APC. Then knowing every guy to your left and right is holding the same weapon or something better. Unless he is a kroot, then you pity him, because he is using something akin to a crappy bolter with slightly worse armor pen.
You know what's also able to blow up a Rhino?
Pretty much every heavy weapon in the Imperial Guard arsenal.
Magic Magic? Magic is nice! Tau do not have magic, but thus far is hasn't been anything they need or need to defend against, maybe it will be someday. When that day comes on a large enough scale I'm sure the Tau will find counters using the best minds for the job. For now, random fights here and there aren't really a concern. Though it could quickly become one if a proper enemy fought them.
Heh.
Yeah, you don't need to defend against it when a Librarian is ripping apart your lines, slowing down time allowing for his compatriots to close the gap while your men are still busy reloading, erecting kinetic barriers to absorb pulse fire, or opening up rifts sucking your troopers into the Warp.
Nope, no reason at all to worry about those crazy magic users
Also,
The threat percieved of the Tau was from Genetor Secundus, Zachary Santiago - Tau Dex P20.
Funny piece of fluff full of Tau hate lol
Except this isn't talking about when the Imperium was preparing for a full cleansing of the Tau homeworld.
This is once the Tau had been protected by a Warp storm, and effectively cheated their way into becoming a galactic power.
Again, Tau weaponry is all and good, and their tactics are sound. But they cannot face the power of Chaos. The endless hordes of daemons and power warriors of the CSM would, if they cared to, over run the entire empire.
There are only two reasons why Cadia has withstood the onslaught of the Chaos.
1. Because the fighting force consists of billions.
2. Because the Ruinous Powers want it to.
It's been pointed out that Chaos is stronger with the current arangement. They constantly win battles. They're not the tipical enemy that gets shut down at the end of every story. No, the prevail. They prosper. And in the destruction of a Chaos force, it only feeds Korne.
Tau feed Chaos too.
Korne: Tau kill thier enemies.
Nurgle: Tau are born and they die. They also get sick, and are not immune to disease.
Tzeentch: They seek knowledge, such as a greater understand and advancement of technology. I'd also like to add that this is at an astonishing rate.
Slaanesh: They have desires. They wish to gain power and territory. They need it. This is how they survive. Their very existance feeds our Prince of Chaos.
So as you can see, as long as Tau live, even if they manage some how to defeat every other race in the known universe, Chaos will still be there
Sothas wrote:There are only two reasons why Cadia has withstood the onslaught of the Chaos.
1. Because the fighting force consists of billions.
2. Because the Ruinous Powers want it to.
This is a fallacy.
The reason "why Cadia has withstood the onslaught of Chaos" has nothing to do with the Ruinous Powers.
The reason "why Cadia has withstood the onslaught of Chaos", however, has everything to do with Cadia itself.
Cadia is far too valuable to be destroyed.
Why?
The pylons on Cadia, which are supposedly of Necrontyr manufacture, are responsible for the calming effect on the Warp which has resulted in the nomenclature of the "Cadian Gate".
The pylons effectively form a 'breakwater', allowing for easy passage for large numbers without having to worry about your forces being scattered all over the bloody place.
The Gate, however, allows for the forces of the Ruinous Powers to move in unison and in unprecedented numbers.
It's been pointed out that Chaos is stronger with the current arangement. They constantly win battles. They're not the typical enemy that gets shut down at the end of every story.
Actually, they are. Chaos has goals which can be countered. Simply spilling blood doesn't mean that Chaos "becomes stronger".
The forces of Chaos still rely upon traditional methods of warfare in the main, the only difference is that they can forcibly(in most cases, at least) pull planets into their turf.
But that requires absurd amounts of preparation(sometimes decades worth), willing sacrifices, ritual objects, and knowing the rituals along with having the power to perform them.
No, they prevail. They prosper. And in the destruction of a Chaos force, it only feeds Khorne.
Again, a fallacy.
If the "destruction of a Chaos force" fed Khorne, he'd be one of the strongest of the Ruinous Powers.
He's not.
He relies upon active worship, as they all do, for his power to grow. It's a mindset that has to be reached, not a simple action.
He relies upon active worship, as they all do, for his power to grow. It's a mindset that has to be reached, not a simple action.
Which is agression, something you usually find a lot of in war. This is why khorne is often domminating.
Chaos (gods and daemons rather than mortal worshippers) isn't after any solid item. They just want to generate as much emotion as possible. If they attack a planet it doesn't matter if they are pushed back because they still caused a huge amount of suffering. Chaos could be stopped at the cadian gate each time and the gods woudn't care as long as enough destruction was caused. Unlike other races they haven't lost anything as their troops with return. All it cost them is time which being immortal they have quite a lot of.
The Damocles Crusade was small.... very small. Like pathetically small.
It Didn't include full chapters, it included parts of many chapter of space marines, and I think a few regiments of guard.
Thats a small tiny crusade.
The Tau would have been screwed during the time of Solar Macharius who reclaimed over 1000 planets in the span of 7 years. Many of them much more technologically advanced then his armies.
But then again, Solar Macharius was the man. Best the IoM can come up with nowadays is Creed.
He relies upon active worship, as they all do, for his power to grow. It's a mindset that has to be reached, not a simple action.
Which is agression, something you usually find a lot of in war. This is why khorne is often domminating.
Except, once again, you need active worship for Khorne to be gaining power in any noticeable amount.
Just because people have aggression doesn't mean that he's gaining absurd amounts of power from the mere emanation of the emotion.
Chaos (gods and daemons rather than mortal worshippers) isn't after any solid item. They just want to generate as much emotion as possible. If they attack a planet it doesn't matter if they are pushed back because they still caused a huge amount of suffering.
And if that were true, then Nurgle would have absurd amounts of power.
He doesn't.
The simple feeding of emotions is a mere morsel to the ruinous powers. Active worship is what they want, and need, to really gain any noticeable amount of powers.
Chaos could be stopped at the cadian gate each time and the gods woudn't care as long as enough destruction was caused.
If that were true, then they wouldn't punish their followers by creating spawn or refusing to restore their followers' essence.
They do both of those actions, however.
Unlike other races they haven't lost anything as their troops with return. All it cost them is time which being immortal they have quite a lot of.
Uh, actually they have.
Every Traitor Astartes killed is a life snuffed out that has existed for quite a long time with the combat experience(and utter and complete devotion to the Ruinous Powers) to go with it.
In many instances, the Dark Gods then have to expend part of their own power to resurrect their followers. Which kinda negates the whole "passive feeding".
Orkz and Tau have a pretty big hatred for each other.
Orkz hate Tau fighting with "range stuff" cuz it's cheatin!
Tau hate Orkz because they are savage baddies.
Tau fear Tyranids more than anything. Tau may be able to put an armor column on it's butt faster than you can eat a mars bar, but a Hive eating a planet is something they don't like too much. Tau tactics aren't at all suited for fighting a Hive Fleet the size of say behemoth or leviathan. Tau are civilized fighters that prefer civilized enemies. Tyranids represent a scary reminder that everything in this galaxy is still in a food chain.
But Nids aren't really drawn to Tau. They are heading toward the Golden Steak on Terra. Guess fish wasn't their thing.
Korne was created by the Christain Crusades.
Nurgle was created by the Black Plague.
Slaanesh was created by the Eldar's lust.
Tzeentch was created when the first guy stole thousands of SSNs (ok not really, I don't actually know where he came from)
The reason I say these things is that each god was created by ONE race, 2 of which were created by a very small race at the time.
So please explain to me how these such minor events in the history of the universe creating gods happens and yet the, as you call it, "passive" worship isn't enough to fuel a Dark God in any substantial way. This is mind blowing to me that you could think this is true. ALL races feed the Dark Gods, and the Dark Gods feed Korne. This is why Korne is the most powerful. I'm going to let you in on a little secret...
THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF THE 40K UNIVERSE AND THE GAMES CREATED WITH IN IT FEED KORNE!
Forgive the caps but they fuel the Ruinous Powers too. I just want to make sure that you understand that when you place your models on the table, you are preparing them to provide fuel for the Blood God.
The reason Nids "aren't really drawn to Tau" has nothing to do with "fish wasn't their thing".
It has everything to do with the direction the Hive Fleets are arriving from.
Hive Fleet Leviathan is arriving from beneath the Galactic Plane.
Behemoth was stopped before it could reach past Ultramar/Macragge( which would have brought it in contact with the Tau), etc, etc.
The only contact that the Tau have had with the Tyranids was Hive Fleet Gorgon, and they were getting stomped by it.
To quote the Tyranid codex:
page 19 wrote:Although Hive Fleet Gorgon wrought havoc across a sizeable swathe of the Tau Empire, the Imperium of Man considered it to have been a minor threat. The Tyranid forces encountered by the Cadian XVIIIth army on the surface of Kel'shan were but a tiny fragment of the Hive Fleet's former strength. Castellan Crask wasted no time in declaring the Tau to be weaklings for their apparent inability to scour such a minor Tyranid threat. This viewpoint, and the wilfully misinterpreted conclusions that fed it, was the chief precipating factor in the commencement of the Iron Hammer campaign, which soon escalated into the greatest confrontation yet seen between the Imperium of Man and the Tau Empire. But that is another story...
To put it simply: The near-extinction level event for the Tau was considered a joke by the Imperium.
Avatar 720 wrote:It is the verge of endgame, where there is an eternal stalemate for game reasons; if you timeline were to continue, then every army's endgame would start:
Orks: One Warboss will rise up and unite the entire race under his banner
Orks out number humans now...Humans out number everyone 2:1 Easily..Not including SM as humans.
..if that happened than Orks would most likely have a numbers advantage. Plus Gorka or Morka or Gorkamorka depending on if you think its two gods or one would probably be there to watch them.
Sothas wrote:One definition of it is as follows
Entropy: A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
Chaos is as predictable as the Imperium.
Which Chaos are you talking about? Chaos is chaotic, hense it's name. I'm quite unclear as to how you believe Chaos is predictable? How is the warp predictable? Warp storms consume traveling ships all the time. If they were predictable then it would be possible to avoid them. If Chaos was predictable then Grey Knights would show up at every world prior to the warp overtaking it.
wow...you guys are still complaining about the freaken Tau?
I mean I like them too but lets face it people. They are finished when the last big push comes. They have a chance to defend themselves. There could be a chance for a Eldar,Emperium and Tau allience to stave back the forces of chaos, Push back the GOD WAAAGH by whatever Warboss is possible to unit them all but here is how I see it.
Orks: If it is even possible at all for all them to unit..which its not but a strange thing could happen.
Orks power could only be possibly stopped by nothing less than the three great "good powers" uniting until the war is over.'
Tyranids: would be too numerous but stopping them would be far easier than the Orks
Necrons: are the most powerful of ALL of the races. Lets face it. If it were not for those special beings created by the old ones the enslavers. The Necrons and their gods would had taken everything and Warhammer 40k would be about you Playing a Necron Army against some other race from another Galaxy and One Person plays the OP Necrons while the other Plays the other guys desperatly fighting to keep alive and failing.
They took down Most or possibly all of the "gods" that created almost all the races in the galaxy. Orks exist because of them, Humans, Maybe tau and others.
Necrons Chaos and Orks are gonna be what either almost wipes out all life in the Galaxy or Ends the game than fights it out. But most likely it will come down to Necrons And Chaos after the Orks Finnaly give way and the Tyranids have been wiped out.
Chaos: Same as I said above. A Possible allience between the chaos gods...maybe? If that happens than Humanity,Eldar and Tau really WILL have to forget their differences for a while and fight with each other to keep alive.
Ok, I can give you the fact that if you see Korne followers, that they're going to run at you trying to hack your head off.
If you see a Nurgle follower he's got the plague.
If you see a Slaanesh follower he's... let's just leave it at a Slaanesh follower.
So in a way, they can be predictable. And as mortal beings, Chaos worshipers can be predictable also.
However Chaos cannot ever be predicted. It is the very soul of Chaos that brings it's name. Even followers can be entirely unpredictable.
Let's take a look at Slaanesh. So you've been captured by a Saaneshi follower. YAY FOR YOU! He takes you back to his place, pulls out some drinks and tells you some pretty awesome jokes. Finally he asks you if you're ready to have a good time? This is what you've been waiting for. So then he says that you need to lay down. You listen because you know what's going to happen. Slaanesh is fun! So then he pulls out the tongs and a pencil... uh... wait what? Then he OH BY THE EMPEROR!!!!! And then you understand what Slaanesh is all about!
... which is predictable for Slaanesh. Most people do not understand Chaos that well, but those that do-- the members of the Inquisition, most notably-- can predict fairly accurately what various Chaos Cults are doing, where they are, etc.
The warp (Empyrean, if you will) and the forces of chaos are not the same thing. The warp is truly random, and only a gifted Navis Nobilitae with the assistance of the Astronomican is able to truly travel it safely, but Chaos? It can be predicted down to science.
Negative. Because you don't know what is behind those bleeps. It may just be him writing a poem.
And?
I'm not Inquisition. I haven't spent centuries understanding and hunting down the cults of Chaos and honing it to a science. I'm only saying that it is done, and that the main reason it seems unpredictable is because most people don't understand it.
Negative. Because you don't know what is behind those bleeps. It may just be him writing a poem.
And?
I'm not Inquisition. I haven't spent centuries understanding and hunting down the cults of Chaos and honing it to a science. I'm only saying that it is done, and that the main reason it seems unpredictable is because most people don't understand it.
And the seed of doubt has been implanted. Welcome brother/sister. The warp welcomes you.
Yes, the seed of doubt is always sewn upon the agents of chaos, as it always is for those who feed upon doubt, desperation, and the rest of the lesser human emotions.
He relies upon active worship, as they all do, for his power to grow. It's a mindset that has to be reached, not a simple action.
Which is agression, something you usually find a lot of in war. This is why khorne is often domminating.
Chaos (gods and daemons rather than mortal worshippers) isn't after any solid item. They just want to generate as much emotion as possible. If they attack a planet it doesn't matter if they are pushed back because they still caused a huge amount of suffering. Chaos could be stopped at the cadian gate each time and the gods woudn't care as long as enough destruction was caused. Unlike other races they haven't lost anything as their troops with return. All it cost them is time which being immortal they have quite a lot of.
Gods gain power from worshippers, without worshippers the chaos gods will lose power. That was the Emperor's plan, he planned to suck them out of thier followers and thus making them very very weak and then one day they would be destroyed. The chaos gods need followers, everytime they lose a war, its a major set back
Chaos Has not won, every side is losing, EXCEPT the Tyranids, Orks, and the Necrons, These three races are actually the only one that is not losing any war, they get stronger everyday.
Chaos is not loosing, nor are they winning. However old fluff does talk about some Orks actually being dedicated to Korne, which means in a way they're winning. The very act of slaughter, which all of these races are good at, gives Korne strength. Is it as much as direct worship? No, of course not, but it is still power, and it will still cause Korne to grow.
And as for Melissia, it is obvious you do not know the inner workings of Chaos. The fact that you believe that your inquisition can predict the movements of Chaos is entertaining to me. I will give them the fact that they have a better idea about Chaos than any other mortal being attempting to combat them, but they still are flawed.
They can, and they do. It isn't a matter of what you believe, but what actually happens. Believe all you want, the fluff disagrees with you.
And yes, that khorne worshipping Ork fluff was old. VERY old. It is no longer canon-- Orks are effectively (not entirely, but in all but the most extreme situations) immune to the corruption of Chaos in the most recent fluff.
And they don't actually predict correctly all the time. They don't get every incursion. They can't stop Chaos, they can only combat it. The only being that can truely combat Chaos is the Emperor, and we all know what happend there. Go team!
The only race with true divination is Eldar, and even that can be wrong sometimes... even Ulthwe. (see DoW2)
Sothas wrote:And they don't actually predict correctly all the time.
That's because the Imperium is vast and there is much the Inquisition needs to track-- sometimes they miss an important clue, or perhaps they miss several more subtle clues simply due to the vast quantity of information they have to deal with-- the Imperium has millions, if not billions of worlds on which insurrectionists and cultists can hide. Even rooting out cultists that are KNOWN to be only on a single hive world is tedious enough work.
It's well known that the vastness of the Imperium is actually one of its biggest problems.
True, all very true. And it's predictable because once corruptions has seeded you can see signs of it. You can predict what the cult's following is, and with that tell what will most likely be happening. But this is not Chaos, these are worshipers. They are as flawed as any other mortal man. Chaos is chaotic. This is why it is called Chaos to begin with.
Also Chaos is not what people believe it to be, that is, it is not evil. So why fight it anyway? It's not bad, just chaotic.
Father Nurgle gives life and resurrection.
The Prince of Chaos shows us pleasure and happyness.
The Changer of Ways teaches us and gives us knowledge.
The Blood God... ok so Korne's technially evil, but what do you expect from a Blood God that sits on top a throne of skulls?
Well with that logic the language of the Imperium is similar to latin because it's cool and it makes money, and Orks are there because they're cool and they make money. And people liked elves so they made Eldar cuz they make money.
Kanluwen wrote:The reason Nids "aren't really drawn to Tau" has nothing to do with "fish wasn't their thing".
It has everything to do with the direction the Hive Fleets are arriving from.
Hive Fleet Leviathan is arriving from beneath the Galactic Plane.
Behemoth was stopped before it could reach past Ultramar/Macragge( which would have brought it in contact with the Tau), etc, etc.
The only contact that the Tau have had with the Tyranids was Hive Fleet Gorgon, and they were getting stomped by it.
To quote the Tyranid codex:
page 19 wrote:Although Hive Fleet Gorgon wrought havoc across a sizeable swathe of the Tau Empire, the Imperium of Man considered it to have been a minor threat. The Tyranid forces encountered by the Cadian XVIIIth army on the surface of Kel'shan were but a tiny fragment of the Hive Fleet's former strength. Castellan Crask wasted no time in declaring the Tau to be weaklings for their apparent inability to scour such a minor Tyranid threat. This viewpoint, and the wilfully misinterpreted conclusions that fed it, was the chief precipating factor in the commencement of the Iron Hammer campaign, which soon escalated into the greatest confrontation yet seen between the Imperium of Man and the Tau Empire. But that is another story...
To put it simply: The near-extinction level event for the Tau was considered a joke by the Imperium.
Wow, context much?
The Tau wiped the bulk of the most hyper-adaptive Hive ever to enter the galaxy through a prolonged fight, the Cadians rolled in for the final battle, deemed the remaining Nids a joke without knowing at all what had just gone down and declared the Tau weaklings.
He then gave his superiors a false report about the Tau's military ability and drew the Imperium into a massive conflict just in time for the largest expansion in Tau history.
This Iron Campaign sounds like it is going to be fun.
What's better is that he didn't even know the full extent of the previous conflict before betraying the Tau. Ensuring that they will be expecting another invasion. Keep in mind the first Crusade "smashed" a bunch of isolated outposts in "glorious" conquest then stopped when faced with the might of the local Fire Caste in full force, on ONE planet.
Imagine what the combined Empire is going to do to a bunch of misinformed Imperials, when they roll with bad intel against an enemy that is expecting them. If you thought 1 sept world's forces did work on an entire "extermination" force, imagine what 17 are going to do. What's even worse is that the primary damage done to the Tau was colonial merchant damage with one sept world being invaded, and luckily, the mighty Cadians SAVED it! haha worst case scenario ever man, this will make Taros look like a joke.
Going to be a fun read for sure! Great way to start a new Tau dex!
Thank the Emperor that you have finally stop talking about that gay blue alien dudes...
As for Chaos, my opinion is that he is winning - but barely. AS negative feelings feed the Chaos gods, so does positive feelings starve them. And Humans are in most of the time happy creatures, they know that only think to do is to pay tax and nothing more. And they know that the Emperor's army's are watching over them so they are happy because they have protection, nutritions and a place to live. Chaos only launch Black Crusades to spread misery, anger and overall negative feelings just to feed the Chaos Gods.
In the end the Emperor's soul will enter Chaos realm and he will close the EoT before reincarnate on Earth. So Chaos is winning now but in the end it will be defeated - like all bad guys.
Retrias wrote:But Brother Coa, He didn't stop. He is still think that if Imperium actually wants to kill Tau, The Tau would win .
What? Has he read the other fluff?
Moran, there are somethings the tau can do better than the imperium, we already had a discussion about this, but the imperium would win, all they have to do is deploy 10 entire chapters, and a few hundred regiments and 12 titan legions and an entire armada, the tau are gone.
The chaos gods are happy to feed on emotion- worship is nice but only because it creates more of the desired emotion. If they required emotion they would never have been created- no one came up with the idea and worshipped it there fore creating the gods. People only started worshipping them once they showed they existed.
4M2A wrote:The chaos gods are happy to feed on emotion- worship is nice but only because it creates more of the desired emotion. If they required emotion they would never have been created- no one came up with the idea and worshipped it there fore creating the gods. People only started worshipping them once they showed they existed.
You don't know the emperors plan do you? If you forget about the chaos gods (of all humanity that is.) The Chaos gods would lose alot of power.
People woudn't worship them which decreases their power because chaos worship involves creating emotions. He did that because he can't stop emotion.
Slaanesh wasn't born through worship, he was born because of the emotions of the eldar. Worship only helps because it makes people feel the desire for pleasure.
Because saying the Manta is the "best Titan killer ever" isn't?
The only thing the Manta has engaged has been Warhound Titans. The Imperium hasn't devoted anything larger to fighting the Tau--yet.
The Tau wiped the bulk of the most hyper-adaptive Hive ever to enter the galaxy through a prolonged fight
The Tau lost three worlds, one a primary Sept World, to a Hive Fleet that consisted of basically nothing but Gaunts, Rippers, and Lictors.
There were practically none of the 'big things' that the Imperium faces in every single one of their engagements against the Tyranids.
the Cadians rolled in for the final battle, deemed the remaining Nids a joke without knowing at all what had just gone down and declared the Tau weaklings.
"What had just gone down" was the Tau got practically stomped by a Hive Fleet that adapted a reflective carapace on its little critters because the Tau rely almost exclusively upon energy weapons.
In case you forgot, they had to scavenge Kroot Rifles to arm the Fire Warriors with before the Cadians arrived and showed them what's what.
Practically the only thing that showed the vaunted "Tau discipline" was the Kroot, who held the line long enough for the Tau to evac civilians from the planet.
But let's not also forget that the Tau believed the Necrons to be their saviors, and lost another world to a Necron harvest.
Fun times!
He then gave his superiors a false report about the Tau's military ability and drew the Imperium into a massive conflict just in time for the largest expansion in Tau history.
We know nothing about the Iron Campaign yet, but you can bet it will be in the Tau codex--since the author of the Tyranid book is also reputed to be the author of the Tau book.
What's better is that he didn't even know the full extent of the previous conflict before betraying the Tau. Ensuring that they will be expecting another invasion.
What did he have to "know"?
The Tau had done the critical mistake of allowing the Tyranids to adapt to their methods.
The Tyranids of Hive Fleet Gorgon consisted almost exclusively of no big beasties: the Tyranid book hints at them having faced 'mostly' Gaunts, Rippers, Warriors, and Lictors.
The Gaunts, Warriors, and Rippers evolved Chameleonic carapaces, and a form of 'gel' layering underneath that carapace that let even the freaking Rippers shrug off Pulse Rifle fire.
The Tau were getting stomped. The only real 'victory' they had over the Tyranids was in space, and even then they lost more often than not.
Face facts.
Keep in mind the first Crusade "smashed" a bunch of isolated outposts in "glorious" conquest then stopped when faced with the might of the local Fire Caste in full force, on ONE planet.
And once again: a "Crusade" can range from ten regiments(a force that is barely able to subjugate a Hive City in the Imperium if it revolts) to thousands of regiments, full Astartes Companies supporting them, thousands of Navy vessels, etc.
And you're wrong about "the might of the 'local' Fire Caste in full force".
The exact quotation from the Tau Empire book is "the full might of the Tau military".
With how little territory the Tau control and that their version of FTL is only effective for 'short hops'(i.e. within their Empire), that's not entirely unbelievable.
Imagine what the combined Empire is going to do to a bunch of misinformed Imperials, when they roll with bad intel against an enemy that is expecting them.
The Tau can be 'expecting them' all they want. The Cadian XVIII is already on Kel'shan, the Tau fleet was dumb enough to pursue the fleeing Tyranids thinking that "if they stop the fleeing Tyranids, the rest will never know what happened".
If you thought 1 sept world's forces did work on an entire "extermination" force, imagine what 17 are going to do.
Yeah...that was far from "an entire extermination force".
And it wasn't "one Sept World".
It was the full might of the Tau military.
I'd suggest you read your own quotations for accuracy if you're going to cite your army book.
What's even worse is that the primary damage done to the Tau was colonial merchant damage with one sept world being invaded, and luckily, the mighty Cadians SAVED it!
And the 'mighty Cadians' are still on the planet, with orbital assets in place while the Tau orbital assets are off on a wild goose chase in an asteroid belt.
haha worst case scenario ever man, this will make Taros look like a joke.
Going to be a fun read for sure! Great way to start a new Tau dex!
Meh, the imperium of man has a pretty good chance of standing up against anything the universe can throw at it. I liked the idea of one warboss uniting all of its race and completely pillaging the universe, but it would be balanced out by all the Astartes and the combined might of the IG. It'd just be endless war.
If you believe 2 Regiments of Guard, 5 Space Marine Companies and 3 Titans required the full might of the Tau Empire to fight, I would suggest you re-read the context in which the passage is used. Otherwise, Taros would be a very comedic up-set given the size of the element being even smaller than Dal'yths defenses against forces that were even more numerous.
The Tau use Coaltions sized elements per system defense as per their codex.
As for the IoM love, I love it! Thx Coa for sharing the vids man! Nicely done! Read your FB blog, some good points made and discussed, agreed with a lot of what was reasoned.
Hey guys, to throw back into more logical talks, fact is, if the IoM had the resources to wipe out every threat at once they would use em. Mobilizing 10 Chapters isn't something you do, the Authority for such an action requires impending doom like Cadia's defense against a Black Crusade, or a mega WAAAAGH etc.
Taking on the Tau is percieved as "bleh" at most from the IoM, I don't even think the High Lords of Terra even know or care about the conflict.
This works for both, the Tau expand and protect an area of space that the Imperium really doesn't. Meanwhile, the IoM makes itself a large buffer between the Tau and nasty things like Chaos, WAAAGHs, and Nids. While they are utterly massive, they aren't able to send troops everywhere, the force needed to crush the Tau would be larger than the force sent to defend Cadia. It would never be justified or allowed in any shape or form unless the Tau began a serious conquest into Imperium space at rapid speeds.
Until a new dex comes out describing the Iron Hammer Campaign I'll just opt to wait and see. Should be fun if they base a cool campaign around it. Then 5th Edition Tau can test out their new shooty armies on IG players in a new setting that isn't played out.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Hey guys, to throw back into more logical talks, fact is, if the IoM had the resources to wipe out every threat at once they would use em.
Fact? Fact is, the IG could just march over these Tau and trample them beneath their boots.
But, the IoM is known to react slowly...but also steady. They never stop. And hit hard enough to end more civilizations than Tau have etherals. Why should GW write anything to allow to wipe out every threat at once when the theme is eternal war?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Mobilizing 10 Chapters isn't something you do, the Authority for such an action requires impending doom like Cadia's defense against a Black Crusade, or a mega WAAAAGH etc.
Badab war All it needed was the authority of the iNquisition.
It was not even a black crusade or a "mega"-waagh.
Thus, a few thousand renegades are more of a threat then Tau...
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Taking on the Tau is percieved as "bleh" at most from the IoM, I don't even think the High Lords of Terra even know or care about the conflict.
This works for both, the Tau expand and protect an area of space that the Imperium really doesn't.
Somebody sent marines to kick these blue grey asses and they did. Guess who...
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Meanwhile, the IoM makes itself a large buffer between the Tau and nasty things like Chaos, WAAAGHs, and Nids.
There lies the Tau's mistake. This was so, but changed. Read 5th ed. Tau got several nid incursions and waaghs.
Those didn't care to visit the IoM on their move. Chaos is not interested yet, but there is no CSM background including Tau so far and we will see who gets to intercept the minions of the ruinous powers to save the Tau.
Seems there is a trend. Tau boast about their abilities, but in the end their allies and neighbours do the job.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
While they are utterly massive, they aren't able to send troops everywhere, the force needed to crush the Tau would be larger than the force sent to defend Cadia. It would never be justified or allowed in any shape or form unless the Tau began a serious conquest into Imperium space at rapid speeds.
No, much smaller.
And thiefs get caught, so stealing planets gets you exactly this unwanted attention.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Until a new dex comes out describing the Iron Hammer Campaign I'll just opt to wait and see. Should be fun if they base a cool campaign around it. Then 5th Edition Tau can test out their new shooty armies on IG players in a new setting that isn't played out.
Its a single hint and may not generate a campaign. You'll have to start one yourself.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:If you believe 2 Regiments of Guard, 5 Space Marine Companies and 3 Titans required the full might of the Tau Empire to fight,
What 'full might of the Tau military' is it talking about then?
'The full might of the Tau military' is a pretty cut and dry statement, Beef.
This isn't saying 'The full might of Dal'yth's system defense forces'(which weren't many to begin with, because Dal'yth isn't a Fire Caste world, it's a Water Caste world)--it's saying 'The full might of the Tau military'
I would suggest you re-read the context in which the passage is used.
And I've read it, five times over.
Never once did I see any listing of "5 Space Marine Companies".
That's nearly 500 Space Marines, or fully half of a Chapter. There's no bloody way that many were assigned to a theater where two Guard Regiments were deployed.
Now, I think you might be confusing the fact that forces from five Chapters were involved, but we have no actual set listing of the forces provided from them.
Of course, there's discrepancies in that fluff as well because of Nimbosa, but that's a whole different thread.
Otherwise, Taros would be a very comedic up-set given the size of the element being even smaller than Dal'yths defenses against forces that were even more numerous.
Yes, let's have a look at Taros, shall we?
The 4621st Imperial Guard Army consisted of the following:
We had 12 Guard Regiments[two of which are Stormtrooper Companies, which would have been operating within the make-up of the other Regiments](and furthermore, of which, 2 regiments--the 19th Kriegs' Armoured and 8th Brimlock Dragoons--never saw action because they never actually arrived at the warzone).
From the Navy we saw 4 fighter wings, 2 bomber wings, and 1 tactical wing directly employed. In terms of Capital ships:
We had the Righteous Power(Overlord class), Star of Cassiopeia(Tyrant class), Black Duke(Dictator class), Hammer of Thrace(Lunar class), August and Cerebus(both dauntless class).
We then had 4 escort squadrons, two being Sword class, one Cobra, and the last Firestorm.
For transports we had 4 armed transports, 5 unarmed transports, 3 heavy transports, a heavy tanker, and a 'Behemoth class' transport.
From the Astartes, we saw three Companies(2 from the Raptors, 1 from the Avenging Sons), 10 Raptor Scouts, and various amounts of equipment ranging from Dreadnoughts to Thunderhawks(of which the crews are included within the make-up of those three Companies).
The Astartes also provided 3 ships.
Raptors provided the 'War-Talon'(Battle Barge) and a Gladius class Escort
The Avenging Sons provided a single Strike Cruiser, the 'Proxima Justus'.
The Adeptus Mechanicus supplied 224 Enginseer Teams, and 12 Ordnance Teams.
These were not actual 'combat' units, but logistical units charged with maintaining all the tanks and aircraft, not to mention the single Scout Titan Battlegroup in the warzone(Legio Ignatum). And I should also remind you that for all the 'amazing Titan killing' prowess of Mantas and Tiger Shark AX-1-0's...they killed a single Warhound.
The Tau numbers have never actually been put down as exact numbers. The estimate was a Coalition consisting of 100 Hunter Cadres; which would be 'a grand total between 8-9000 Fire Warriors', 'maybe as many as 5000 Kroot allies', 'added to this were in excess of 8000 human traitors who fought in the Tau cause'.
That's just the ground forces mind you, the Air Caste, Earth Caste, and the like numbers were never talked about and the guesstimated Tau(not Kroot, not Gue'vasa, Tau) casualties are in excess of 5000--including a fair number of Ethereals.
This is far from the 'crushing defeat' to the Imperium that you like to make it be.
Well kan, I think at this point it's more a debate than actual proof.
I'd like to discuss it but we would both draw on a ton of variables. Lexi has the forces listed and it was 5 Companies involvment but it what cohesion you would have to dig deeper. I'd imagine it would be a mixed use of some sort.
Coalitions are implied defenders of each major Sept.
A Coalition is massive.
P22-23
A Contigent is the equal in size to a Guard Regiment.
A Command is several contingents. (Several Guard Regiments)
A Coalition is several Commands. Every single major Tau Sept has a Coalition due to the nature of Tau Expanse. Farsight for example, went renegade with his forces and was able to wage a decade long campaign and conquer several planets and colonize them. These are massive forces and the Imperium basically ran into the Dal'yth Coalition on Dal'yth prime.
Had it been the full weight of the Tau Empire it would of been over in days for the Imperials.
They aren't as tiny as you think, when Aun'va gave his speech, one million Fire Warriors were present at the speech alone on bended knee. The Tau have a lot more dudes than most people think.
Full might of the Tau military implies they were now fighting the actual Tau Empire in Combat. These were no longer little outposts, the Imperium was fighting a massive force, a Coalition.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Hey guys, to throw back into more logical talks, fact is, if the IoM had the resources to wipe out every threat at once they would use em. Mobilizing 10 Chapters isn't something you do, the Authority for such an action requires impending doom like Cadia's defense against a Black Crusade, or a mega WAAAAGH etc.
Taking on the Tau is percieved as "bleh" at most from the IoM, I don't even think the High Lords of Terra even know or care about the conflict.
This works for both, the Tau expand and protect an area of space that the Imperium really doesn't. Meanwhile, the IoM makes itself a large buffer between the Tau and nasty things like Chaos, WAAAGHs, and Nids. While they are utterly massive, they aren't able to send troops everywhere, the force needed to crush the Tau would be larger than the force sent to defend Cadia. It would never be justified or allowed in any shape or form unless the Tau began a serious conquest into Imperium space at rapid speeds.
That's the key thing here IMHO, the Tau haven't done anything to prove their strength, particularly on the level you seem to talk about; the Tau appear to be naive of the wider galaxy and thanks to their location haven't had to face any 'serious' threats such as the brunt of a Hive Fleet, Ork Waaagh, Chaos Invasion or Eldar and Necron attacks. The Tau have so far been a race of rapid expansion and defence, but they have NOT been expanding into strong areas so they haven't proven their strength like you suggest.
One of the common features of Tau advancements is that they're minor worlds for the Imperium that sometimes appear to be near-deserted due to Imperial evacuation at the prospect of a Hive Fleet, allowing the Tau to advance almost unopposed.
Once the Tau gain the attention of Chaos, they are in for a serious problem. I don't deny their technical or tactical ability and they are a VERY efficient fighting force, but outside of sheer, but limited, firepower they have very little means of stopping a Chaos invasion. Tau cannot cope in close combat, and that's where the likes of Daemons and CSM's excel; they don't fight fair and the Tau would likely struggle to adapt to such an unpredictable enemy and have little chance of being able to close warp gates etc. like Psykers can.
Similarly, the Tau haven't faced a significant Hive Fleet or Ork Waaah AFAIK so their strength you keep mentioning hasn't been proved and against such forces it would be tested to the extreme. The Tau faced a splinter fleet and suffered, they eventually defeated it and adapted their tactics well, but they couldn't keep up with the adaptation of the Hive Mind and faced a relatively small Tyranid force.
As you said yourself, the Tau have not had to fight the Imperium on a large scale. Against IG, they would likely prove superior due to their tactics and the sluggishness and predictability of the Guard regiments. However, the Tau cannot handle the slug-fests and wars of attrition that are commonplace within 40K and the Tau are the near opposites of Space Marine tactics.
Tau avoid close range and try to keep the initiative. However, Space Marines are capable of seizing this initiative off them and closing into close range very quickly. The one time Tau have faced Space Marines on any remote scale was at Zeist it seems and the Tau were quickly defeated as the Space Marines used their own rapid, thrusting attacks against the Tau who couldn't combat them effectively.
As I said, the Tau have proven to have the strength you keep speaking of, you're talking in speculation and exaggeration IMHO as they have not shown this apparent strength as none of the races believe they warrant it nor have fought the Tau on a large scale.
Other races such as the Imperium, Chaos, Orks and Tyranids have shown their strength and capability and thus far it HUGELY outweighs that of the Tau. Assuming the Tau expand further and draw further attention, then we can see if they are as powerful as you seem to think. Until then however, they are little more than a blip on the galactic map and have hence not drawn and significant attention or proved their true military capability in the vast and long-term wars 40K is known for.
If the Tau expand then we can see this strength that you claim exists within the Tau Empire and they will be tested and made aware of what awaits them in the wider galaxy. Their encounter with Necrons appeared to show their naivety and immaturity on the galactic scale. Maybe we shall see what they are capable of one day, but for now at least the Tau are a tiny force in the galaxy and arguably have the Imperium to thank for their existence due to it's acting as a 'buffer' between them and the rest of the galaxy. The only race that's truly aware of the Tau it seems (the IoM) don't believe they warrant their full attention and for now atleast, they're right.
I'd like to point out the Tau Empire on this map in comparison to the Imperium.
Hell, they could fit the Tau Empire into Segmentum Solar what... 5-6 times if the map were entirely flat and assuming the entire blue boxed area is the Tau Empire (which it is not).
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well kan, I think at this point it's more a debate than actual proof.
Yeaaahh...
I'd like to discuss it but we would both draw on a ton of variables. Lexi has the forces listed and it was 5 Companies involvment but it what cohesion you would have to dig deeper. I'd imagine it would be a mixed use of some sort.
Lexicanum says nothing about "5 Companies involvement".
It lists the 5 Chapters involved in the Damocles Gulf Crusade.
The Ultramarines, Black Templars, White Scars, Iron Hands, and Scythes of the Emperor.
Could they have given over a company each?
Maybe. But there's no way in hell the Marines were assigning a full Company to a campaign where there were only two Guard regiments involved.
Coalitions are implied defenders of each major Sept.
"Coalitions" are nothing of the sort. They're implied to be organizations set up for a single purpose.
A Coalition is massive.
Because a 'Coalition' is a strategic organisation consisting of 4 Commands(Fire, Earth, Water, and Air), with an Ethereal Caste representative overseeing the whole thing.
'Command', by the by, is a term for all the forces of a given caste, in a given location.
Page 23 explicitly states that "In all likelihood, the location will be a world, though it could be a planetary system".
I dunno, maybe you have a different more special Tau Empire Codex than I do, but that's what mine reads.
P22-23
A Contingent is the equal in size to a Guard Regiment.
Bwuh?
"A Contingent is not a permanent grouping, though constituent Cadres may become expert in acting together in prolonged campaigns. Such a unit is of roughly equivalent size to an Imperial Guard regiment".
A Command is several contingents. (Several Guard Regiments)
No, it's not. It's "all of the forces of a given caste, in a given location".
There's no limit as to how many contingents, Cadres, Teams, etc will be in a Command.
A Coalition is several Commands. Every single major Tau Sept has a Coalition due to the nature of Tau Expanse. Farsight for example, went renegade with his forces and was able to wage a decade long campaign and conquer several planets and colonize them. These are massive forces and the Imperium basically ran into the Dal'yth Coalition on Dal'yth prime.
No, it doesn't.
Coalitions don't happen without the four Commands acting in unison. They have to be working towards a single goal, and that goal has to be blessed by the Ethereals.
Had it been the full weight of the Tau Empire it would of been over in days for the Imperials.
I dunno about that, 2 Regiments and an unknown quantity(probably a Company[100 Marines] at best, given the normal ratio of Guard-Astartes for a campaign) of Astartes managed to crash their way into a major Sept World, and stayed there until they were recalled to deal with Hive Fleet Behemoth.
They aren't as tiny as you think, when Aun'va gave his speech, one million Fire Warriors were present at the speech alone on bended knee. The Tau have a lot more dudes than most people think.
And yet, they still don't engage in meat grinder tactics and constantly give ground in the idea of 'strategic withdrawls'.
Full might of the Tau military implies they were now fighting the actual Tau Empire in Combat. These were no longer little outposts, the Imperium was fighting a massive force, a Coalition.
"Full might of the Tau military" implies they were now fighting "the full might of the Tau military".
They'd been fighting the Tau Empire previously. Unless you're going to say that it was someone pretending to be the Tau Empire...?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:The verdict would be in the readers hands Kan.
If you believe 2 Regiments of Guard, 5 Space Marine Companies and 3 Titans required the full might of the Tau Empire to fight, I would suggest you re-read the context in which the passage is used. Otherwise, Taros would be a very comedic up-set given the size of the element being even smaller than Dal'yths defenses against forces that were even more numerous.
The Tau use Coaltions sized elements per system defense as per their codex.
As for the IoM love, I love it! Thx Coa for sharing the vids man! Nicely done! Read your FB blog, some good points made and discussed, agreed with a lot of what was reasoned.
Hey guys, to throw back into more logical talks, fact is, if the IoM had the resources to wipe out every threat at once they would use em. Mobilizing 10 Chapters isn't something you do, the Authority for such an action requires impending doom like Cadia's defense against a Black Crusade, or a mega WAAAAGH etc.
Taking on the Tau is percieved as "bleh" at most from the IoM, I don't even think the High Lords of Terra even know or care about the conflict.
This works for both, the Tau expand and protect an area of space that the Imperium really doesn't. Meanwhile, the IoM makes itself a large buffer between the Tau and nasty things like Chaos, WAAAGHs, and Nids. While they are utterly massive, they aren't able to send troops everywhere, the force needed to crush the Tau would be larger than the force sent to defend Cadia. It would never be justified or allowed in any shape or form unless the Tau began a serious conquest into Imperium space at rapid speeds.
Until a new dex comes out describing the Iron Hammer Campaign I'll just opt to wait and see. Should be fun if they base a cool campaign around it. Then 5th Edition Tau can test out their new shooty armies on IG players in a new setting that isn't played out.
Don't mention it. I love the Tau to, even being the Imperial fan. But what you said is impossible for the Tau. And Imperium don't have the recourses now to wipe everyone out, they have to wipe individually everyone - but don't have to wipe everyone together. Except Tau, 2 Regiments of Guard, 5 Space Marine Companies and 3 Titan Legion is really enough to wipe them out. The force that was send both to Democles and Taros are manor assault forces. If HLoT decide to deal with the Tau they would, but now they do not consider them a threat until Tau actually do some nasty damage to the Imperium ( like taking over major Hive World ). And right now Tau have their own problems ( Nids rising on one sept, Ork raids and new Hive Fleet attacking ) to rally army to go to conquest. And besides, Tau Empire is in peace treaty with the Imperium. These attacks was unofficial Tau commanders actions ( like Germany and Italy several years before WWII ).
My opinion is that Imperium didn't destroy the Tau because they plan to use them against Chaos one day, being the no-warp effective race and all. Inquisition knows that and I think that they have some major plan for the Tau in the future.
It's basically the Tau pop split 4 ways into Castes. (not counting Ethereals)
Saying the Air Caste gets tossed into the mix is like saying "oh hey, we will toss an Imperial Navy in too!" the Earth Caste is like saying "lets get thousands of Engineers and their entire families!" These are massive force multipliers, given what the commands are, they add to a battle more troops. Command Structure as you described in the capacity in which they serve, what a command brings is another caste to a conflict. Basically a command is saying all dudes in this sector report to high commander "x" This adds regiments to size though it could be much larger. Air Caste command in a sector could be a few thousand ships. A Coalition being the maximum use of the commands into a single force, this is what the IoM ran into at Dal'yth Prime after fighting through Hydrass and some aggroworlds.
Given that Aun'Va's speech had a ceremonial FW audience of 1 million we are lead to believe that at least 1 million FWs were at Dal'yth, no dude... simply no... There wasn't one million FWs fighting the Crusade, few hundred thousand yes, not a million though. And that is just the FWs in attendance, there was a broadcast to his empire, thousands of ships carried his word? were they there too? Against a dozen Imperial Naval ships?
As for the quote of the full military might of the Tau Empire
An Example, the full military might of America implies all assests being used in conflict. When America dedicated full military might to Iraq, it was in the capacity of Land, sea, and air. It doesn't mean America will actually use 25k Nuclear weapons, force conscription, create penal legions, turn the suburbs into garrisons, send every single naval fleet and all aircraft in it's air force. It means a 300,000 guys will be sent with a couple thousand vehicles and some naval support to ensure air supremacy.
I'm not suprised you used that so heavily out of context given your out of context quote about Gorgon...
And I don't even know what your on with some of what you are saying, you highlighted the size comparison to a guard regiment then showed how it is a size of a guard regiment. lol?
BeefCakeSoup wrote: It's basically the Tau pop split 4 ways into Castes. (not counting Ethereals)
Yes, that's how the Tau population is considered for a Command.
And if you can't see why that could mean anything at all, I don't know what to tell you.
Saying the Air Caste gets tossed into the mix is like saying "oh hey, we will toss an Imperial Navy in too!" the Earth Caste is like saying "lets get thousands of Engineers and their entire families!" These are massive force multipliers, given what the commands are, they add to a battle more troops. Command Structure as you described in the capacity in which they serve, what a command brings is another caste to a conflict.
This is one of the most vague, unclear statements I've read today.
Basically a command is saying all dudes in this sector report to high commander "x"
Actually, it's not. I posted the exact quote dealing with what a 'Command is the term of' from the Tau Empire book.
But here's the entire text from Page 23.
Command(Tau: Uash'o)
"Just as a Battle is a force assembled with a specific objective in mind, 'Command' is a term for all the forces of a given caste, in a given location. In all likelihood, the location will be a world, though it could be a planetary system. Thus all Fire caste units on the world of Nimbosa were part of 'Fire Caste Command Nimbosa', while all Air caste units there came under the responsibility of 'Air Caste Command Nimbosa'. A Command is headed by the most senior Commander in the force, who is referred to in the case of the Fire caste as a High Commander."
This adds regiments to size though it could be much larger. Air Caste command in a sector could be a few thousand ships. A Coalition being the maximum use of the commands into a single force, this is what the IoM ran into at Dal'yth Prime after fighting through Hydrass and some aggroworlds.
"Air Caste Command" in a sector could be a few thousand ships one day, a million the next.
Commands are very vague, fluid organizations. But that's what happens when you just count all the forces in a sector/planet/neighborhood.
Given that Aun'Va's speech had a ceremonial FW audience of 1 million we are lead to believe that at least 1 million FWs were at Dal'yth, no dude... simply no... There wasn't one million FWs fighting the Crusade, few hundred thousand yes, not a million though. And that is just the FWs in attendance, there was a broadcast to his empire, thousands of ships carried his word? were they there too? Against a dozen Imperial Naval ships?
So your argument now is that the Tau seriously outnumbered the Imperium?
Hm. Interesting.
Kind of changes the dynamic there, doesn't it?
As for the quote of the full military might of the Tau Empire
An Example, the full military might of America implies all assests being used in conflict. When America dedicated full military might to Iraq, it was in the capacity of Land, sea, and air. It doesn't mean America will actually use 25k Nuclear weapons, force conscription, create penal legions, turn the suburbs into garrisons, send every single naval fleet and all aircraft in it's air force. It means a 300,000 guys will be sent with a couple thousand vehicles and some naval support to ensure air supremacy.
"All assets being used in conflict" isn't likely what it means in this context. The Fire Caste can't get to a warzone without the Air Caste, and the Air/Fire Castes can't operate without the Earth Caste.
It's likely BS flavor text meant to make it seem like the Tau responded with some kind of overwhelming force to some hugely superior Imperial force(which is funny enough in itself, considering the disposition of the Damocles Crusade).
I've posted the make-up, or what we have of it, for the Damocles Crusade. It's not even equivalent to a Command of those 'outpost' worlds.
If the Tau had to respond with a 'Coalition'(which remember doesn't include the Kroot) to deal with ~50-60 Astartes, 3 Warhound Titans, and 2 Guard Regiments...
They're nowhere near the military power you're making them out to be.
I'm not surprised you used that so heavily out of context given your out of context quote about Gorgon...
Or considering your 'out of context' statement that Mantas are such fantastic Titan killers...and they've only destroyed a single Warhound Titan... I mean, lemme tell ya. It sure seems like the Tau have evolved some serious anti-Titan capabilities when they've got confirmation of a single destroyed Warhound!
And I don't even know what your on with some of what you are saying, you highlighted the size comparison to a guard regiment then showed how it is a size of a guard regiment. lol?
Since I guess I didn't make it clear enough:
You said "A contingent is the equal in size to a Guard Regiment".
The exact quote is "A Contingent is roughly the equal in size to a Guard Regiment".
That means a Contingent can be larger, can be smaller, or can be the same.
Il confess im a huge Eldar fanboi, however, the fact that the tau do have a codex even though they are such a "minor" threat according to most means they might be destined for something greater.
The reason I say this is because I remember when the necrons were just a article in WD with a range of 4 metal models and were nothing but raiders. Then finally GW gave them the time of day and now they are the end all be all of the 40k universe next to the tyranids.
The tau are very unique and are not given enough credit because sure they might not be able to overthrow any of the other races, but the same can be told of those races as well. No way GW is going to discontinue another playable race just to prove how bad ass they are.
The Tau Empire is not considered a threat why?
Its been stated they hold a very small space in the overall galaxy. Well my reply to this is its not so small if GW decided to give them their own dedicated range and codex.
Its also been stated that if any major race was to decide to take them out seriously they would. Well I honestly doubt this because like i said before GW is not going to discontinue a army again. Which means this gives the Entire tau empire 2+ plot armor. The damocles crusade, the tyranid splinter fleet, the ork waaghs, the DE have all seriously threatened the Empire but have in the end faltered and thats what matters.
I truly believe that GW has a plan for the Tau. So far from the fluff on their tech and tactics they seem to have the most potential to become the counter balance to the IoM. GW need to just start injecting some grim darkness to the Tau and it will become the next necron in terms of uberness fluffwise
One more thing beef. I have thought about comparing Tau Empire and Imperium of Man. And I came in conclusion that it's the same thing as comparing our Earth with Galactic Empire from Star Wars. We have the better technology ( comparing to them we have nano-teck, EMP's, better ordinance and in a few year's nano suits etc. ), but in the end they only need to send several fleets and level us to the ground like bugs.
And to avoid " we can't fight because we don't have the freaking ships" I will compare System's Alliance from Mass Effect and Galactic Empire from Star Wars. System Alliance has several fleets ( with 5'th fleet as it's flag fleet ), excellent trained infantry ( Commander Shepard is an example ), Vi equipment ( similar to Tau AI ) and strong military doctrine ( for assault - destroy logistics and command centers, for defense - "the man who doesn't defend it's home defend nothing"). And still with all that power the GE would simply ( again ) send few fleets and destroy us. Because they have numbers on their side ( Imperial army troopers), advanced specialized infantry ( Imperial Stormtroopers ) and heavy vehicles ( AT-AT's). And if we add force and biotic powers we still lose because they have more Sith warriors than Alliance biotic specialists.
In any case - Tau would lose a direct war with the Imperium. And it's provocation at Nimbosa, Taros, Kronus, Kaurava and Targa do not help them.
HiddenPower wrote:Il confess im a huge Eldar fanboi, however, the fact that the tau do have a codex even though they are such a "minor" threat according to most means they might be destined for something greater.
The reason I say this is because I remember when the necrons were just a article in WD with a range of 4 metal models and were nothing but raiders. Then finally GW gave them the time of day and now they are the end all be all of the 40k universe next to the tyranids.
The 'fact that the Tau do have a Codex' is because GW wanted them to have one. By that point in time they were past doing little WD army lists, and were looking to introduce a new race anyways.
The tau are very unique and are not given enough credit because sure they might not be able to overthrow any of the other races, but the same can be told of those races as well. No way GW is going to discontinue another playable race just to prove how bad ass they are.
The Tau Empire is not considered a threat why?
Because in the grand scheme of things: they're not. They gain territory at an astonishing rate--when the Imperium's busy elsewhere.
The Tau threw the entirety of their might at the planet of Nimbosa, and were stalemated for months against a pathetically underequipped and tiny Imperial force.
It wasn't until those forces(specifically the Astartes present, who'd been really holding the line) were needed elsewhere and pulled from Nimbosa that the Tau took the planet.
Its been stated they hold a very small space in the overall galaxy.
Except they do hold a "very small space in the overall galaxy". They're barely equivalent to what falls under the overview of the various Inquisitorial orders.
Well my reply to this is its not so small if GW decided to give them their own dedicated range and codex.
GW also gave the Harlequins and Imperial Assassins "their own dedicated range and Codex" at about that same time.
Does it mean that they're huge threats to the galaxy overall? Of course not.
Its also been stated that if any major race was to decide to take them out seriously they would. Well I honestly doubt this because like i said before GW is not going to discontinue a army again. Which means this gives the Entire tau empire 2+ plot armor. The damocles crusade, the tyranid splinter fleet, the ork waaghs, the DE have all seriously threatened the Empire but have in the end faltered and thats what matters.
The "Damocles Crusade" was hardly a 'Crusade' compared to what we usually see.
The problem is that, much like a 'Command'--Crusades are extremely vague in their make-ups. A pair of armed merchant vessels and some Naval Security teams dedicated to cleaning a space station could feasibly be listed as a 'Crusade'.
I truly believe that GW has a plan for the Tau. So far from the fluff on their tech and tactics they seem to have the most potential to become the counter balance to the IoM. GW need to just start injecting some grim darkness to the Tau and it will become the next necron in terms of uberness fluffwise
So your point is that "because GW says so, the Tau are a match for the Imperium".
Yeah. No. That's not how debates in Background go.
HiddenPower wrote:
The Tau Empire is not considered a threat why?
Its been stated they hold a very small space in the overall galaxy. Well my reply to this is its not so small if GW decided to give them their own dedicated range and codex.
Its also been stated that if any major race was to decide to take them out seriously they would. Well I honestly doubt this because like i said before GW is not going to discontinue a army again. Which means this gives the Entire tau empire 2+ plot armor. The damocles crusade, the tyranid splinter fleet, the ork waaghs, the DE have all seriously threatened the Empire but have in the end faltered and thats what matters.
I truly believe that GW has a plan for the Tau. So far from the fluff on their tech and tactics they seem to have the most potential to become the counter balance to the IoM. GW need to just start injecting some grim darkness to the Tau and it will become the next necron in terms of uberness fluffwise
Tau a threat? Macragge has a population that outnumber entire Tau military force, twice. And of course everyone else fails against them when they are defending 16 planetary systems, if IoM is defending only Segmentum Solar and Cadia you think that they would ever lose? AS for GW plans, it is more realistic that they will give Tau a few more units ( just to earn more money ) and they will present year another alien race or secret Imperial organization.
And let's bet that in the end GW will give the Imperium something to fight against Necrons only to hold balance between races of 40k. Tau will never advance beyond their small empire, because there is only war and lot of miniatures to buy.
I think that if the Imperium truely tried top oust the Tau it would end up like what happened to Iraq in 1991. The American sent in two tank groups of 9 M1A1 and 4 scout tanks each. This ousted 5 Republican GUard Regiments, including Tc-72 tanks, one of the best available to the world. The American literally lost 0 tanks, 1 trooper was killed when he stuck his head out of a turret when under fire. This is what will happen when the Adeptus Astartes get deployed against them in force. The tau believe in their doctrines and tech, but they only control 10 systems, this means the raw materials they use for their tech will soon run out. Doctrines are inflexible and if they encounter a tactic that hasn't been covered by their prescious doctrines they run around like headless chickens as they don't know what to do. And for all their superior tech they can't warp engines or even a narwhal or FTL dirve yet, so much for superior
The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.
The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.
Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.
So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.
More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.
And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.
See, we could have a lopsided view too...
Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.
There are quite possibly more worlds in the Imperium than there are members of the Tau race. Millions of casualties are more than acceptable for such a vast armed force, however, that grimdark aspect of the guard is often not borne out in the fluff (especially the BL books).
You can have all the fancy weapons you want, but you are still going to run out of shots before you have killed even a tiny percentage of the Imperial Guard.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well, I'll cut to the point then Kan.
The single largest asset the IoM has is the guard.
Wrong.
The 'single largest asset the Imperium of Man' has is they outnumber everyone out there, barring the Orks.
The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.
Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrifice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.
By 'low standards', it doesn't matter that you've got millions dead--when you've got billions more waiting.
So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.
A 'Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield' when he's facing the Astartes.
However, those Astartes climb out of the wreck pretty much unscathed and level the Fire Warrior and his entire supporting squad.
A 'Guardsman has to pray his lasgun doesn't just tickle an Ork Boy', but so does a Tau Fire Warrior.
Orks don't die easy. Period.
More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim.
Which is why you use indirect fire artillery, orbital strikes/drops, or aerial assets to pound the target into suppression while you advance.
Guess which side has more of those at their disposal?
Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.
So your argument is "railguns"(anti-armor weapons) are effective against Guardsmen?
Brilliant!
Maybe the Guard should start using Lascannons on Fire Warrior teams, slice entire teams in half with a single beam.
And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.
Railguns can only hit so many tanks at once. There's a reason there's no "penetrating shot" rule on railguns in 40k.
Even the lightest armor out there is too thick for it to work.
See, we could have a lopsided view too...
You've pretty much already proven you've got that down, in spades.
Just don't be surprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.
Just don't be surprised when the Tyranids are gone that your precious little Empire gets overrun in a month by my 'precious decaying Imperium'.
The problem is Mr Soup, that's simply speculation. And hugely one-sided speculation at that.
The IG is the Imperium's main fighting force, but it's not the only one and if they were as poor as you make out then they wouldn't have such a decisive effect in battles and actually be able to hold their own. Railgun > Lascannon. Pulse rifle > lasgun. However, then there's the vast array of other weapons they can bring to bear, be it arguably the best tanks in 40K, artillery, innumerable regiments of soldiers, psykers, air cavalry, TITANS and more.
You seem to massively discredit the numbers the Imperial Guard can bring to bear. The ability of the Guard in warfare has been proven time and time again and unlike the Tau, they can afford such wars of attrition. They can provide tanks alone to outnumber the Tau who even then don't have enough firepower to stop.
Then there's the Space Marines, against whom the Tau have a horrid combat record and struggle to match, in any way.
The guard don't fight alone.
Nonetheless, most of what you're saying about the Tau's fighting capacity is simple speculation as they've haven't been recording fighting in such a capacity or size. The Tau can't afford a war of attrition, which the Imperium can. You assume the Tau are military genius' whilst the entirety of the IoM are bumbling morons who do little more than throw stones. The fact is, the Tau haven't proven themselves in conflict like the Imperium and other races have and what you're saying is massively biased speculation.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well, I'll cut to the point then Kan.
The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.
The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.
Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.
So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.
More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.
And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.
See, we could have a lopsided view too...
Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.
LOL, IG are the lowest of the low in IoM army. So what they out number Tau a million to one. Tell you what find a hive of a million ant or bees or any swarming bug, then come tell us how you faired.
Slower minded? The Tau have all that technology, yet Fire Warriors shoot only as well as a Guardsman, plus humans definetly have better reaction times (this has been confirmed a few times).
Corruptable? Tau are too. LESS corruptable, yes, but not totally immune.
Worthless armour? Well, obviously it's going to be lower quality when you need to outfit so many more people.
Bad rifles? Same deal as the armour.
Horrible tanks? So that's why Leman Russes can run on any fuel you can fill it with, pracitcally tap-dance around any other tank, and are some of the strongest armour available.
Terrible tactics? It's not terrible at all. They're simply playing to their strength. If they have millions of disposable troops, they can totally afford to run wave after wave of conscripts at the enemy line, if it gets the job done.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.
Just to focus on this briefly. In what way are Humans slower minded than Tau? Do you have a source? They are corruptible, and so are the Tau. Their armour is useful, albeit it doesn't do that well against Pulse Rifles, true. Lasguns are sufficient for what they're used for. They're not the best weapon, but they can put down Fire Warriors. Their tanks are extremely efficient. I daresay a Leman Russ will penetrate a Hammerhead Tank most of the time. Not to mention Baneblades and other Superheavies. Terrible tactics? Tell that to Creed and Yarrick, who are both said to be amazing strategists and tacticans. There are some bad generals, but assuming that that's representative of all of them is wrong. Their kill-death ratio varies massively depending on their foe, obviously. A massive fortress protected by void shields? Sure, they'll take heavy losses. A load of Orks charging across an open field without great support weapons? The ratio changes rather sharply. They haven't advanced significantly technologically, yet they continue to face off against myriad threats and xeno empires. They must be doing something right. Those generals are not all generals, and in some circumstances, they're tactics are necessary (time can be as vital a resource as manpower).
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well, I'll cut to the point then Kan.
The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.
The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.
Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.
So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.
More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.
And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.
See, we could have a lopsided view too...
Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.
My Fanboi detector has overloaded. Beef you are very , very ignorant . You just can't accept that the Tau could be defeted by the Imperials and are the ultimate super ultra amzing race that can't be beaten.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.
When did the Tau out number the Imeprial Guard?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.
Lasgun - The most mass produced, reliable firearm in the eintire galaxy, Pulse Rifles - better yes but the raw materials for them will run out long before lasguns producition dips slightly.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.
If they are more prelavent then why can they not travel a reativly short warp jump yet????
Fire Warriors also cannot blow up a chimera, the primary guard APC. They just have to sit and watch 5 embarked troops adn 2-3 mounted weapons cut them down.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.
You assume that every commander uses the exact same tactics, that every regiment is identical. This is about as far from the truth as you can get, the shear variety of troopers the Guard could throw at you is staggering
BeefCakeSoup wrote:And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.
Have you seen how durable Leman Russ are? Have you seen how fast Land Speeders are? Have you seen how accurate Drop Pods are? Evidently not.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.
The imeoriu is not decaying as bad as you believ it is. True Orks and DE and 'crons adn taint will always be interior problems yet we have an uncountable population each one willing to die for the Emperor. Don't even dare bring out the 'traitor' troopers arguments. These were fresh-faced PDF troopers with very little training and no experience and were chucked into a hellish battle with Xenos. They were broken mentally adn were probaly suffering heavily form PTSD and were given the option join us or die. The only reason we keep you alive so we have large supply of fish and chicken for our brave boys on Cadia
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.
The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.
Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.
So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.
More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.
And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.
Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.
Ever heard about Cadians? Elysians? Terrans? Vostroyans? Preatorians?... These Regiments are the most advanced trained Guardsman in the Imperium, one Regiment could chew FW like newbies. And Lasgun is a good rifle, it's easy to handle, repair, recharge, upgrade and has a solid damage against enemy armor. And Warhammer 40000 5'th edition say that Imperial Guard has THE BEST TANKS IN THE GALAXY. One Leman Russ tank cannot be matched by ANY Xeno or Human tank out there, and you are forgetting about Baneblade that can tear down entire cities, or Basilisk - the best artillery in the galaxy. And Tau are using that special anti-tank weapon in a same manner the Imperium is using Exterminatus, and Exterminatus is one bomb that can destroy entire surface of the planet. Tau weapon is failing in comparison to that. And one more thing that the Guard has a Tau don't - courage, duty and honor. Imperial Gaurdsman are the bravest man in the galaxy, simply because they are not hiding behind the technology but using tactics, armor ordinance and massive firepower to win the day. And read "Fire and Honor" where 1 Regiment of Cadians destroy ENTIRE Tau strike force ( even kills a commander in advanced battle suit ), so don't be surprise if several Regiments of trained and good equiped Guardsman destroy an entire Tau sept military force
Just Dave wrote:The problem is Mr Soup, that's simply speculation. And hugely one-sided speculation at that.
The IG is the Imperium's main fighting force, but it's not the only one and if they were as poor as you make out then they wouldn't have such a decisive effect in battles and actually be able to hold their own. Railgun > Lascannon. Pulse rifle > lasgun. However, then there's the vast array of other weapons they can bring to bear, be it arguably the best tanks in 40K, artillery, innumerable regiments of soldiers, psykers, air cavalry, TITANS and more.
You seem to massively discredit the numbers the Imperial Guard can bring to bear. The ability of the Guard in warfare has been proven time and time again and unlike the Tau, they can afford such wars of attrition. They can provide tanks alone to outnumber the Tau who even then don't have enough firepower to stop.
Then there's the Space Marines, against whom the Tau have a horrid combat record and struggle to match, in any way.
The guard don't fight alone.
Nonetheless, most of what you're saying about the Tau's fighting capacity is simple speculation as they've haven't been recording fighting in such a capacity or size. The Tau can't afford a war of attrition, which the Imperium can. You assume the Tau are military genius' whilst the entirety of the IoM are bumbling morons who do little more than throw stones. The fact is, the Tau haven't proven themselves in conflict like the Imperium and other races have and what you're saying is massively biased speculation.
Mr. Just Dave, you are a very reasonable poster. You have given logical reasons supporting what you are saying. granted you aren't 100% fair, but you are certainly giving the fairest application of truth when compared to Commisar Kan. Not a dig, but compliment Kan, you could make a guard defeat look like a sacred battle, and thats what debating fluff is really about in a lot of ways.
Just Dave, if we fairly applied the fact that Tau haven't been battle tested, we would have to look at their capability in war. They can't afford massive losses, but the thing is, they seldom take large military losses. Sure thay have lost forces, but not akin to 10 million dead here and there in a campaign (troops).
Taros shows how Tau play against a powerful military, they cut logistics, sway the people, hold key positions and win the fight. They are masters of warfare and know how to outmanuever and defeat many many many times their numbers. So the power of numbers runs into a wall against them. Debating that the numbers are limitless or near limitless only runs that discussion in circles.
The Guard has proven countless times it's potential to win against many foes, but against Tau they don't have such a great record. Why not? Main reason I've heard so far is they don't want too. What it really is, is that the Imperium can barely send anything to fight the Tau. Galactic frontlines stretch even the biggest empires thin. Hell, they had to recall the Crusade they sent after nids rolled up. They simply have a hard time doing anything serious. When they do send something large enough we will see how a large force does against a specialized force.
My bet is the Imperium will slog through, get bogged down, crush a few things, get worn out and quit. Pretty much, that's how the Imperium always fights Tau. Space Marines have a better track record, but being such a limited force on a galactic scale, waging a campaign with them in any large numbers would be high risk to other fronts.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well kan, I think at this point it's more a debate than actual proof.
I'd like to discuss it but we would both draw on a ton of variables. Lexi has the forces listed and it was 5 Companies involvment but it what cohesion you would have to dig deeper. I'd imagine it would be a mixed use of some sort.
Coalitions are implied defenders of each major Sept.
A Coalition is massive.
P22-23
A Contigent is the equal in size to a Guard Regiment.
A Command is several contingents. (Several Guard Regiments)
A Coalition is several Commands. Every single major Tau Sept has a Coalition due to the nature of Tau Expanse. Farsight for example, went renegade with his forces and was able to wage a decade long campaign and conquer several planets and colonize them. These are massive forces and the Imperium basically ran into the Dal'yth Coalition on Dal'yth prime.
Had it been the full weight of the Tau Empire it would of been over in days for the Imperials.
They aren't as tiny as you think, when Aun'va gave his speech, one million Fire Warriors were present at the speech alone on bended knee. The Tau have a lot more dudes than most people think.
Full might of the Tau military implies they were now fighting the actual Tau Empire in Combat. These were no longer little outposts, the Imperium was fighting a massive force, a Coalition.
Omg fanboy here.
Dude the imperium would slaughter the Tau, have you read any of the books?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Mr. Just Dave, you are a very reasonable poster. You have given logical reasons supporting what you are saying. granted you aren't 100% fair, but you are certainly giving the fairest application of truth when compared to Commisar Kan. Not a dig, but compliment Kan, you could make a guard defeat look like a sacred battle, and thats what debating fluff is really about in a lot of ways.
Plus, even a Guard defeat is still a win for all intents.
I mean hey, they get martyrs.
Just Dave, if we fairly applied the fact that Tau haven't been battle tested, we would have to look at their capability in war. They can't afford massive losses, but the thing is, they seldom take large military losses. Sure thay have lost forces, but not akin to 10 million dead here and there in a campaign (troops).
Taros they deployed roughly 6000-8000 Fire Warriors.
They lost around 5000.
That's definitely "large military losses".
Taros shows how Tau play against a powerful military, they cut logistics, sway the people, hold key positions and win the fight. They are masters of warfare and know how to outmanuever and defeat many many many times their numbers. So the power of numbers runs into a wall against them. Debating that the numbers are limitless or near limitless only runs that discussion in circles.
Taros showed that the Tau could sway the people and commit a harassment campaign against a military force that was unsupplied for the environment they had to contend with and spread across a huge area.
That's nothing really groundbreaking.
The Guard has proven countless times its potential to win against many foes, but against Tau they don't have such a great record. Why not? Main reason I've heard so far is they don't want to.
"The Guard" has sent very little of its actual might against the Tau.
What it really is, is that the Imperium can barely send anything to fight the Tau. Galactic frontlines stretch even the biggest empires thin.
Yeahhh...
It's more that right now, they're less worried about the military 'might' of the Tau and more worried about the idealism that the Tau are trying to spread.
There's more Inquisitors operating along the Tau borders than there are Guard regiments.
Hell, they had to recall the Crusade they sent after nids rolled up.
They recalled the 'Crusade'(it still makes me laugh calling it that) because the biggest Hive Fleet yet rolled up.
They simply have a hard time doing anything serious. When they do send something large enough we will see how a large force does against a specialized force.
Deathwatch has a few such examples of 'how a large force does against a specialized force'.
The Imperium crushed the Tau and effectively quarantined them within their holdings. Some Tau get out and start shenanigans, but the Imperium responds by assassinating Ethereals and causing havoc.
My bet is the Imperium will slog through, get bogged down, crush a few things, get worn out and quit. Pretty much, that's how the Imperium always fights Tau.
The Imperium has always fought Tau while being vastly outnumbered and ill-prepared.
When those two factors are taken away, the Tau get crushed despite all their vaunted technology.
Space Marines have a better track record, but being such a limited force on a galactic scale, waging a campaign with them in any large numbers would be high risk to other fronts.
Space Marines have a better track record because they're not engaging in a whole campaign. They're being employed the way they should be: surgical strikes targeting specific positions.
If the Elysians had been employed in such a way rather than taking and holding a water treatment plant in the middle of nowhere, the campaign likely would have swung very differently.
Right, so you have no idea how the Imperial Guard fight.
PROTIP: They're in their element with a war of attrition. They WILL outlast the opponent.
Taros they didn't.
DGC they didn't.
Against Tau they don't have a line to hold. Tau don't wage a war of constant losses. Turns out, that's a bad way to win wars. Emperor of Mankind agreed, that's why he built massive Legions of Elite Infantry called Space Marines to do the heavy lifting. IG are great at holding out, in some cases the less than worthless ones can actually be really good troops. Too bad their leadership is almost always torn into factions between Naval, Guard, Inquistion, and Astartes ambition. What happens then, is a bunch of Elysians get left hung out to dry while bad leadership lets them all die. Thats a great read btw. Love the emphasis on the Guard staying power as they retreated offworld against a bunch of rebel humans and some fish people.
My bet is the Imperium will slog through, get bogged down, crush a few things, get worn out and quit. . .
IoM getting bogged down?
Simply, start reading other codices, not water caste flyers.....
Your posts contain as many facts as the "I.I.U.P. DGE" ( BL publication ).
Pretty much, youre wrong and roleplaying as naive / ignorant Tau gets you where it leads the Tau themselves: nowhere. Until you provide correct citations, there will be nothing to debate as wisful thinking isn't debatable.
Noir wrote:THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.
Nothing you posted disproved this.
According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.
Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?
That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.
If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.
Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?
Noir wrote:THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.
Nothing you posted disproved this.
According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.
Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?
That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.
If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.
Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?
Or just maybe, Warp travel takes time to get there. So they pull the force close to the fighting, instead of waiting until they other IG get there. You know becouse soimetime you end up getting there, years to late to do anything. As you like to say tactics.
And were dose it "That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far."
To the last thing, have you only read the Tau book?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.
Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?
That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.
If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.
Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?
But the Imperium has also the ability to put it's forces in a fights that can decide the fates of a whole sectors of space. And Imperium posses never ending force to send, but they are only recruiting 10% of a Hive City population for fights ( exceptions are great conflicts ). I have a question for you: why USA don't send million of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and deal with Taliban's? Why don't USA army don't rally millions of solders and attack Iran? Because not 1 country in this Earth ( same goes for the Imperium ) don't mobilize every single citizen into a solder. You would need many equipment, food, supply's, trainings and fuel. And Imperium is facing several enemies at the same time who are far grater threat than the Tau, and of course they will recall troops to fight a much WORTHY opponent. Why bother with insignificant threat when the more larger threat is at our doorstep?
And Imperium os not broken, it still stands with all of it's major and minor worlds. Facing all the horrors of the galaxy being trowed against it. While Tau can't defeat "manor" crusade fleet, Imperium has stooped Black Crusades and Tyranid Invasions.
This is my quote to Tau millitary
Noir wrote:THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.
Nothing you posted disproved this.
According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.
Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?
That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.
If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.
Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?
Jesus Christ, I'm sick of trying to reason with you. All I can say is go read something that isn't the Tau codex and finally realise that the Tau aren't the be-all end-all of 40k. In fact, they're barely competitors.
Noir wrote:THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.
Nothing you posted disproved this.
According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.
Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?
That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.
If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.
Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?
Meh, no matter how much the Tau fanboys want to think otherwise, the Tau are still just a very small, very minor empire, of which there are thousands of that the Imperium has to deal with on a day to day basis. As far as the Imperium is concerned, the Tau empire is nothing more than a footnote in in the beginning of the history of the conflict with the Tyranids.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.
The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.
Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.
So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.
More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.
And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.
Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.
I agree bad rifles and bad armor. however, did you really just say bad tanks? If there is anything the IG has going for them, its their armor companies. That is the worst statement I have heard in a long time.
Also you keep throwing around human corruptibility..... there have been some planets to convert to the greater good. Though these are regular people and some guard. Most Imperial forces have the Emperor so drilled into their head they have wet dreams about him. Also good luck EVER getting a space marine to convert to their greater good dream. The 40K universe is war and grimdark. Not diplomacy and flower's. You would have to show me pigs flying through a frozen hell to make me believe a space marine chapter was helping the Tau out against the Imperium. Chaos has more pull over human minds, but then again they wouldn't be fighting Chaos would they?
Also, the Imperium has enough guard to lay on the Tau and crush them with their weight. The Tau Empire is 20 world's, I consider this an Imperial outpost.
Ayways, away from Tau fanboyism.
Chaos did exactly what they wanted with the HH. They punched the crap out of the Imperium, making it more susceptible to other attacks on its frontiers by other races. THis feeds the chaos gods exactly how they want. You think they WANT to wipe out humans? We atre their main source of food. Constant war is exactly what they want and they got it.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?
Replace "millions to die while billions stand ready" with "billions to die while trillions stand ready". The Imperium has over a million worlds, and a population in the quadrillions. The Tau have a few dozen worlds, only a handful of which have any meaningful population (what is it, seven? eight? I can't recall), the rest being minor outposts and undeveloped colonies. If only .1% of Imperial worlds are Hiveworlds, their Hiveworlds outnumber the Tau equivalent better than a hundred to one, each with an average population in the hundreds of billions. What's the average population of a Tau sept? A few tens of billions?
Brother Coa wrote:And Imperium posses never ending force to send, but they are only recruiting 10% of a Hive City population for fights ( exceptions are great conflicts )
Divide that number by one hundred, and you get the exceptionally high emergency tithe percentage. Armageddon was tithed for one hundred million recruits, less than one tenth of a percent of its population; this was stated to be exceptionally high, due to the extenuating circumstances in the region (IG codex, page 8, I believe it is).
xXSir MontyXx wrote:Chaos did exactly what they wanted with the HH. They punched the crap out of the Imperium, making it more susceptible to other attacks on its frontiers by other races. THis feeds the chaos gods exactly how they want. You think they WANT to wipe out humans? We atre their main source of food. Constant war is exactly what they want and they got it.
Bah, Chaos isn't benefitting from the constant war as much as Orks are. And they never will.
With the constant war, the constant readiness of the Imperium, the constant search and suspicion, it's quite hard for Chaos to dig its claws into a new area, and frequently where it HAS been able to establish itself it gets cut out and burned, only to regrow more fervently Imperial than before it latched on.
Orks, however, have no need to leech off of other populations or convert anyone to their cause. They are their OWN cause, and war is their paradise.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Mr. Just Dave, you are a very reasonable poster. You have given logical reasons supporting what you are saying. granted you aren't 100% fair, but you are certainly giving the fairest application of truth when compared to Commisar Kan. Not a dig, but compliment Kan, you could make a guard defeat look like a sacred battle, and thats what debating fluff is really about in a lot of ways.
Thank you. And to think, that was me being impolite. Nonetheless...
Just Dave, if we fairly applied the fact that Tau haven't been battle tested, we would have to look at their capability in war. They can't afford massive losses, but the thing is, they seldom take large military losses. Sure thay have lost forces, but not akin to 10 million dead here and there in a campaign (troops).
Taros shows how Tau play against a powerful military, they cut logistics, sway the people, hold key positions and win the fight. They are masters of warfare and know how to outmanuever and defeat many many many times their numbers. So the power of numbers runs into a wall against them. Debating that the numbers are limitless or near limitless only runs that discussion in circles.
The Guard has proven countless times it's potential to win against many foes, but against Tau they don't have such a great record. Why not? Main reason I've heard so far is they don't want too. What it really is, is that the Imperium can barely send anything to fight the Tau. Galactic frontlines stretch even the biggest empires thin. Hell, they had to recall the Crusade they sent after nids rolled up. They simply have a hard time doing anything serious. When they do send something large enough we will see how a large force does against a specialized force.
My bet is the Imperium will slog through, get bogged down, crush a few things, get worn out and quit. Pretty much, that's how the Imperium always fights Tau. Space Marines have a better track record, but being such a limited force on a galactic scale, waging a campaign with them in any large numbers would be high risk to other fronts.
Once again you've missed the crux of the issue which is that the Tau simply don't warrant such attention from the IoM. As you've said, the Imperium appears to be stretched thin across many fronts and are facing threats from all angles and ultimately, the Tau don't really register as one of these threats.
The Tau don't survive due to their military might or superior ability over the Imperium, they simply do because the Imperium lets them. The IoM could EASILY divert the resources to exterminate the Tau - admittedly leaving some other fronts weakened - but simply haven't because of other, more pressing matters.
It's not that the Tau is superior military force or the Imperium fears - or should fear - the casulties they will gain, they could defeat the Tau and with relative ease. However they haven't as they have more substantial threats and without any bias towards the Tau or the IoM, that's the crux of the issue IMHO and the existing battles have done nothing to disprove this theory/fact.
The Tau are little more than a boil on the butt of the Imperium. What happens to troublesome boils? They get removed eventually and in the case of the Imperium, it will be with a very, very big lance.
Are we still arguing why Tau that little thing on the corner of the galaxy with Ultramarine area surrounding it can actually survive? If for some reason, Calgar wakes up and decided that Ultramarine should get the whole part of the galaxy. Tau will be extinct , then again pick any major chapter/Race and strong enough reason they will descent upon the Tau,and blow it to kingdom come
Retrias wrote:Are we still arguing why Tau that little thing on the corner of the galaxy with Ultramarine area surrounding it can actually survive? If for some reason, Calgar wakes up and decided that Ultramarine should get the whole part of the galaxy. Tau will be extinct , then again pick any major chapter/Race and strong enough reason they will descent upon the Tau,and blow it to kingdom come
I don't know if an unassisted chapter, even one as wardsome as the Ultramarines, would be able to do it, the Tau are fairly potent and they have some pretty bad ass allies.
There would have to be full campaign launched against Tau space and not be interrupted by a more important threat, like what happened during the Damocles Crusade.
Right, it would need to be Ultramarines assisted by Imperial Guard, as usual. Imperial Guard doing most of the work, Ultramarines triking at valuable targets, etc.
Melissia wrote:Right, it would need to be Ultramarines assisted by Imperial Guard, as usual. Imperial Guard doing most of the work, Ultramarines triking at valuable targets, etc.
Ultramarines have fared 'okay' in fighting the Tau, but the real way to pimpslap the Tau would be to let the Deathwatch and Raven Guard run wild on them.
Ethereals dropping dead all over will take some of the fight out of the Tau
Just my 2 cents on the current Tau vs IoM thread. It seems most people have an idea that the Guard is a bunch of poorly trained rabble, dying by the millions to gain 1 foot of ground. But its not always the case. The tactics of the Guard vary from regiment to regiment. So that implies a lot of flexibility, due to each regiment has a specialty, ie Catachans in jungles, Valhallens in Ice Worlds, Clone troopers... er i mean Death Corps of Kreig in sieges. So don't assume that all the Guard will do is infantry waves. Second, the guard, at least in 5th ed codex, tend to out ranged the Tau when it comes to heavy weapons. Autocannons, which are everywhere in the Guard FOC, as are Heavy Bolters, and Multi Lasers. AC are 48 and HB and MLs are 36. Most Tau weaponry cuts off around the 30-36 range. So given enough AC's, the Guard will out range the Tau in support weapons. Also the Guard does have very beastly Tanks. Leman Russ' are dirt cheap and can run on wood. Then you got the artillery, The Bassies 36-240 range, the . Nothing in the Tau arsenal comes close to the range except seeker missiles. So the only area where the Tau out range the IG is in small arms fire. In firepower, the Guard will win out to the sheer number of troops it has. More guns equals more Dakka. This is just what the IG does. Space Marines are more flexible, the rapier to the IG Warhammer [had to say it sorry. ] So looking at Codex numbers to get a rough feeling for weapon ranges, you see the IoM has the Edge in Range, Firepower, and Armor. I'll be fair and say Tau military doctrine is better then the IoM. But if you want to compare historical, the Tau are Nazi Germany, the IoM Soviet Union. The Soviets over came the Nazi's in the end, due to numbers and better tanks. When the Nazi's had the better leadership and doctrines.
TL;DR
The IoM has the Advantage in support weapon range and firepower. Plus Superior Armor. Tau slightly has better leadership and doctrines
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Just my 2 cents on the current Tau vs IoM thread. It seems most people have an idea that the Guard is a bunch of poorly trained rabble, dying by the millions to gain 1 foot of ground. But its not always the case. The tactics of the Guard vary from regiment to regiment. So that implies a lot of flexibility, due to each regiment has a specialty, ie Catachans in jungles, Valhallens in Ice Worlds, Clone troopers... er i mean Death Corps of Kreig in sieges. So don't assume that all the Guard will do is infantry waves. Second, the guard, at least in 5th ed codex, tend to out ranged the Tau when it comes to heavy weapons. Autocannons, which are everywhere in the Guard FOC, as are Heavy Bolters, and Multi Lasers. AC are 48 and HB and MLs are 36. Most Tau weaponry cuts off around the 30-36 range. So given enough AC's, the Guard will out range the Tau in support weapons. Also the Guard does have very beastly Tanks. Leman Russ' are dirt cheap and can run on wood. Then you got the artillery, The Bassies 36-240 range, the . Nothing in the Tau arsenal comes close to the range except seeker missiles. So the only area where the Tau out range the IG is in small arms fire. In firepower, the Guard will win out to the sheer number of troops it has. More guns equals more Dakka. This is just what the IG does. Space Marines are more flexible, the rapier to the IG Warhammer [had to say it sorry. ] So looking at Codex numbers to get a rough feeling for weapon ranges, you see the IoM has the Edge in Range, Firepower, and Armor. I'll be fair and say Tau military doctrine is better then the IoM. But if you want to compare historical, the Tau are Nazi Germany, the IoM Soviet Union. The Soviets over came the Nazi's in the end, due to numbers and better tanks. When the Nazi's had the better leadership and doctrines.
Agreed! Now lets compare the orks and the tau in close combat shall we?
Retrias wrote:Are we still arguing why Tau that little thing on the corner of the galaxy with Ultramarine area surrounding it can actually survive? If for some reason, Calgar wakes up and decided that Ultramarine should get the whole part of the galaxy. Tau will be extinct , then again pick any major chapter/Race and strong enough reason they will descent upon the Tau,and blow it to kingdom come
I don't know if an unassisted chapter, even one as wardsome as the Ultramarines, would be able to do it, the Tau are fairly potent and they have some pretty bad ass allies.
There would have to be full campaign launched against Tau space and not be interrupted by a more important threat, like what happened during the Damocles Crusade.
Sorry for the wordings, Ultramarine have ridiculous number of allies yes? I mean the whole entirety of Ultramarine and his friends (allied chapters, if there is allied regiment, some other force might chip in)
I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet, is killkrazy okay? We should make a separate thread for the Tau stuff and get this one back on track. Ill do that I guess.
If the HH was to destroy the Imperium and wipe out all order in the universe, they would have definitely dropped the Imperium if they wanted to. They got just as far as the Chaos gods wanted. Now there is turmoil and a thinly stretched Imperium. Would the Imperium really be in the same situation if had all of those space marines still?
xXSir MontyXx wrote:I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet, is killkrazy okay? We should make a separate thread for the Tau stuff and get this one back on track. Ill do that I guess.
If the HH was to destroy the Imperium and wipe out all order in the universe, they would have definitely dropped the Imperium if they wanted to. They got just as far as the Chaos gods wanted. Now there is turmoil and a thinly stretched Imperium. Would the Imperium really be in the same situation if had all of those space marines still?
It was a sidebar discussion but it started out as Tau vs Enemies then shifted toward Tau vs IoM. Mostly due to my comments and other comments in response, I apologize for the derail. I have read the respones and many of them seem reasonable. I'll hold my peace in this topic on them.
Main Topic about Chaos already winning.
Yes, Chaos has infact achieved victory over the IoM in a very large way. Horus was set up by the dark gods to put the Emperor into undeath. Chaos most likely knew Horus wouldn't be able to defeat the Emperor fully, which is most likely what they wanted. The Emperor's vast power split between two realms (warp/realspace)
This allows him to be taken out of the picture for the most part, while ensuring Chaos has endless souls to devour.
So in short, I think Chaos has claimed a pretty dominant win over the IoM and the Galaxy. The only two races that pose the 4 Gods any real threat in an endgame capacity are the Necrons and the Tyranids. Both purge souls from worlds that offer worship or sacrafice.
xXSir MontyXx wrote:I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet, is killkrazy okay? We should make a separate thread for the Tau stuff and get this one back on track. Ill do that I guess.
If the HH was to destroy the Imperium and wipe out all order in the universe, they would have definitely dropped the Imperium if they wanted to. They got just as far as the Chaos gods wanted. Now there is turmoil and a thinly stretched Imperium. Would the Imperium really be in the same situation if had all of those space marines still?
It was a sidebar discussion but it started out as Tau vs Enemies then shifted toward Tau vs IoM. Mostly due to my comments and other comments in response, I apologize for the derail. I have read the respones and many of them seem reasonable. I'll hold my peace in this topic on them.
Main Topic about Chaos already winning.
Yes, Chaos has infact achieved victory over the IoM in a very large way. Horus was set up by the dark gods to put the Emperor into undeath. Chaos most likely knew Horus wouldn't be able to defeat the Emperor fully, which is most likely what they wanted. The Emperor's vast power split between two realms (warp/realspace)
This allows him to be taken out of the picture for the most part, while ensuring Chaos has endless souls to devour.
So in short, I think Chaos has claimed a pretty dominant win over the IoM and the Galaxy. The only two races that pose the 4 Gods any real threat in an endgame capacity are the Necrons and the Tyranids. Both purge souls from worlds that offer worship or sacrafice.
Well by all means if you still want to debate your point I made the thread for it. Just not here so we do not see another thread locked. I blame nobody. These things just happen in debates
Also, the Imperium has enough guard to lay on the Tau and crush them with their weight. The Tau Empire is 20 world's, I consider this an Imperial outpost.
Not even 20 anymore. The chaos marines taken over one of there planets and made a death world, and I believe that the Vostroyans took one of their planets back from the Tau? Am I correct? I am sure about the chaos one but I might be wrong about the Vostroyans (could be a rumor).
The Tau are powerful forces but yeah they also suffer many hard defeats. Anyways my point of view is that the 40k universe is kinda a tie war. Races constantly fighting and winning and loosing their planets and relics over and over and over and over again. Chaos perhaps wins alot of wars and yes they stopped the Imperium spreading fast but how ever notice that after the Horus Heresy the Imperium has actually became alot stronger and the faiths of people in man kind is stronger then ever! But yeah CHAOS FTW!
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but the real way to pimpslap the Tau would be to let the Deathwatch and Raven Guard run wild on them.
Ethereals dropping dead all over will take some of the fight out of the Tau
Hawkward wrote:The Emperor is a catatonic corpse, incapable of either physically fighting the Chaos gods or dying and becoming one of them.
The Imperium has become fanatical and religious, the precise opposite of what the Emperor intended.
Technology has stagnated, and as alien and supernatural threats loom humanity drifts deeper and deeper into despair - thus feeding Nurgle.
The Imperium is in a constant state of war and bloodshed, hateful against anything and everything - thus feeding Khorne.
Those at the highest levels of the Imperium scheme and plot and hoard knowledge - thus feeding Tzeentch.
Those same schemers and aristocrats sate their desires in extravagant ways as the masses hunger and lust for the pleasures denied to them - thus feeding Slaanesh.
Abaddon the Despoiler leads Crusade after Crusade, never winning but always posing enough of a threat to terrorize the entire Imperium.
Chaos won the Horus Heresy. It just didn't win in the spectacular, apocalyptic way everyone expected. Horus didn't need to slay the Emperor. Abaddon didn't have to sit on the Golden Throne. Cadia didn't have to be overrun and pillaged. Terra didn't have to burn. The Ecclesiarchy didn't have to bow to Chaos. That would have made it all too easy, too messy. Chaos won in an insidious and tidy way, a way that will forever ensure its dominance over the Galaxy. It allows humanity to live, feeding it with its emotions and lusts without the species even knowing.
Humanity spirals into a never-ending hell of hatred and ignorance, dying not with a triumphant final battle, but instead with a futile whimper of defiance, a whimper that is drowned out by the laughter of thirsting gods.
Chaos won.
I am coming a little late to the thread but I would have to say I agree with this sentiment.
Technology has stagnated, and as alien and supernatural threats loom humanity drifts deeper and deeper into despair - thus feeding Nurgle.
Not exactly true, the Macharius tank is an example of a new innovation based on cross referencing to past successful tank designs. I think the background skews the mechanicus too much in that they don't understand how anything works, which doesn't really make any sense, especially since they have to maintain the darn things, and to do that you need to have some idea on how it works.
Praxiss wrote:Surely then they would be allowed to reverse engineer things. You would think it wouldnt be major stretch to take a speeder and RE a jetbike.
A speeder doesn't work on the same principles as a jetbike.
A 'jetbike' is always in motion, it cannot hover, etc.
The Land Speeder, however, uses anti-gravity to keep it afloat and allow it to hover. For forward momentum, it uses turbines that are primitive and crude when compared to the finesse of the jetbike.
And "reverse engineering" in the Imperium is tantamount to Heresy. For good reason too.
If you take something apart and don't know how to fix it: congrats. You just destroyed a relic of ages past.
