The question in simple, without any IC's added into a unit, only unit upgrades, what is the killiest close combat unit you can think of, please take into account expense, durability, and offense.

For the cost, it's hard to beat a mob of Ork Boyz. 116S4 attacks (on the charge) plus the power klaw is a pretty terrifying thing.

Maenus_Rajhana wrote:For the cost, it's hard to beat a mob of Ork Boyz. 116S4 attacks (on the charge) plus the power klaw is a pretty terrifying thing.

However, realistically all 29 Boyz and the Nob won't attack at once.

Khorne Berserkers are up there. For a nominal cost of 21 points you get someone who has the combat ability of a company commander with +1 strength on the charge. There's also Death Cult Assassins. Give them a few crusaders to take abalatative wounds and you got a roving death squad that is everything Genestealers, Banshees and Bloodletters want to be, but cannot be.

Tau broadside

trewbarton wrote:Tau broadside

Uhm... close combat, dude...

wait.. I smell irony..


Skarbrand with Slaanesh Beast...

Yeah orks low init limits there attacks. Khorne are great on the charge, as are their BA equivlent in the death company.

Raveners are dfinatly it for me. 12" charge with Fleet and move through cover, Reroll all failed to hits, and 5 attacks on the charge with 3 wounds. Plus, you can give them rending claws, which gives them the ability to pop light tanks, and can deepstrike (if needed). Get about 6 Raveners, and its a very, very deadly close combat unit.

They do well for you Swiftblade? I never ever see anyone in my area use them.

I think a squad of paladins is way, way up there

especially if they have halbreds and a banner.

Assault Terminators are nasty. Black Templar assault Terminators with lightning claws and furious charge are nastier.

I'd say purifiers are quite nasty... With their psychic ability against hordes, or str enhancement or unit wide force weapons, base 2 attacks, the option to take either a weapon for +2 attacks, or +2 ini or thunderhammers they're a very flexible force (and they're good at shooting too).

Assault termis are up there in fear factor. Khorne Berzerkers too.

Sorta wasteful, but 50 conscripts with a lord commissar. on the charge, they're still under ork boys, but they wont break, almost ever.

Gotta say berzerkers, they really do a number to pretty much anything on the field. Genestealers in a big enough mob or two outflanking do the same.

Warlord titan armed with all titan close combat weapons that's been looted by orks who have put more on it because that's what orks do.

I've heard the Furioso Dread equipped with Blood Talons can be a beast in CC.

Paladins. They're like a walking glacier of death. And you can ouflank them.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Sorta wasteful, but 50 conscripts with a lord commissar. on the charge, they're still under ork boys, but they wont break, almost ever.

That many regular Guardsmen with power weapons and non-independent Commissars (with more power weapons) is far better.

Yeah, it's not the normal gaurdsmen you should be scared of, but the Commissars and seargents with power weapons walking in behind them.

Paladins
SS Runic Armor Wolf Lord
Nobs on bikes
Harlequins
Blood Angel Sanguinary squad or those assault troops they have...or death guard..they are all about the same I think.
Thunderwolf Calvery
Commissar Yarrik

A simple genestealer is pretty cheap, and can do alot of damage in large groups. they're a little soft though.

Death company, furious charge, FNP, WS5 and all for cheaper than a Beserker

To shorten the spectrum to only Tau, I'd have to say our best combat unit (excluding Farsight) is the not-so-humble Shas'O.

Compared to the "obvious" CC face the Tau have, the Kroot; the Shas'O not only has 4* S5 attacks, but the same Weapon skill and toughness as a Space Marine, better Ld, AND can have FNP with a 4++ save.

Only time I've seen kroot do better in combat was when a blob of them had managed to land one wound on Canis Wolfborn. But mind you that was all they did for that game, as they were roflstomped afterward due to their sucktastic survivability their crap Ld gimps them with.

*=(5 on charge)

EmilCrane wrote:Death company, furious charge, FNP, WS5 and all for cheaper than a Beserker

Fair bit more difficult to use and no scoring though.

...fething ninjas...

Fafnir wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:Death company, furious charge, FNP, WS5 and all for cheaper than a Beserker

Fair bit more difficult to use and no scoring though.

...fething ninjas...

Yes but we're just talking about who the killyest and I think death company win that by a wide margin.

Although Im tempted to say Ork boys, their low Int really does hamper their potential. Sometimes you lose enough boys that they cant win back the assault (until the Poweklaw gets at them!)

Otherwise Im gonna have to go with Khorne Berserkers and/or Death Company for pure, unadulterated CC action at its best.

Bloodletters.

16 points of WS 5, 2A power weapons.

and if you snag the charge, 3 S5 I5 attacks for all

Khorne Berzerkers hands down.

Grots.

Incubi gotta be up there, hi init power weapons at str 4 with a 3+ save is good, a big unit of charging hormagaunts are brutal on the charge as well

5 Black Templar Terminators with 5 TH/SS, 2 CML, Tank Hunters USR, and the Preferred Enemy vow.

Wychs and Bloodbrides. 15 man wych squad is 4 PW attacks that wound on 4+ regardless, 3 hydras can net you up to an extra 18 attacks every round, Init 6, can get FnP and FC, and with the right drug roll, they can be S5 on the charge, have another attack each, increased WS for easier hitting, wound reroll. all for 10 pts each.... or 13 pts each as Bloodbrides. if you get some decent rolls for drugs and hydras, those 10 Init 6 bloodbrides or the 15 Init 6 wyches can toss out 70+ attacks before most other units even get to swing.... sorry, I may not have a high strength normally, but with 70 attacks, im bound to cause ALOT of wounds just through statistics.....

Inquisitorial Warbands

4xDeath-Cult Assassins, 5xCrusaders, 3xArco-Flagellents

On the charge:
16 S4 I6 PW attacks
10 S3 PW attacks
15 S5 WS5 attacks

T3 stinks, but there are 5 stormshields and it's not bad for 180 points. You can also mount them up in a Chimera or a Rhino(with Fortitude).

10 BT terminators, 5 with TH/SS and 5 with lightning claws With the +1 strenth vow (S10 termies!), 3++ to land wounds on amd and lC's to land wounds before the enemy attack AND S10 hitting the survivors int the face, rerolling failedhts as well.

That is a whole lot of close combat nasty.

DarthLakey wrote:10 BT terminators, 5 with TH/SS and 5 with lightning claws With the +1 strenth vow (S10 termies!), 3++ to land wounds on amd and lC's to land wounds before the enemy attack AND S10 hitting the survivors int the face, rerolling failedhts as well.

That is a whole lot of close combat nasty.

you can't take 2 vows, either +1 str or preferred enemy and it doesn't stack with FC

To get it right Furious charge, 5 LC, Accept Any Challenge vow

Re rolling failed hits and wounds, I5, S5 on the charge, scary

Marbo.

Fiends of Slaanesh, or Bloodcrushers. If you can get them to the target without getting shot up, they will ruin your day

If a destroyer body lord with res orb, monolith and tomb spyder are in support range, a wraith wing comes in pretty strong and deadly

Ymgarl Genestealers

Ork Nobz

Tyranid Warriors

Wyches

Brother SRM wrote:Assault Terminators are nasty. Black Templar assault Terminators with lightning claws and furious charge are nastier.

QFT. BT assault termies wreck face whenever they get the charge on anyone.

Grass4hopper wrote:I've heard the Furioso Dread equipped with Blood Talons can be a beast in CC.

yeah... i know that from experience. one took out my two squads of ork boys with very little effort. i hate those blood talons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i think ork nobs with big choppas and power klaws. furious charge with st 6 then st 8 hits. all while hitting 4 times per model. oh yeah.

BLOODTHIRSTER!

New death cult assassins:

12 in a squad each with 4 POWER WEAPON attacks on the charge (48 attacks) at str 4 initiative 6 for 15 points each, thats pretty good.

Going to have to go with Black Templar Terminators. Not only do the get Perferd Enemy thanks to the Emperors Champion, they can also get Furious Charge as an upgrade, making them all that nastier in CC. A Squad of 7x w/5x Lightning Claws and 2x w/Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields lead by a Chaplian does a lot of hurt, even more so with the Black Templars being fixed when it comes to certain items and point costs.

Harlequins-WS5, tons of attacks kisses and PWs Troupe Leader, and you're in trouble!!!

Daemonettes.
Squad of 20, 4 attacks on the charge=80 total, all rending, I6 so likely to go first and a 5+ inv save.

Black Templar Neophyte or initiate..that's some pretty scary stuff guys...lets not get in front of those guys.

GK wrote:Going to have to go with Black Templar Terminators. Not only do the get Perferd Enemy thanks to the Emperors Champion, they can also get Furious Charge as an upgrade, making them all that nastier in CC. A Squad of 7x w/5x Lightning Claws and 2x w/Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields lead by a Chaplian does a lot of hurt, even more so with the Black Templars being fixed when it comes to certain items and point costs.

Just curious, why would you run the Chaplain in there? They already have rerolls thanks to the Champion and LCs. Go for a TH/SS termie marshal with adamantine mantle IMO. That'll show the filthy xenoes and the ones who question our loyalty!

Just cause no one mentioned a points limit:

Brood of three carnifexes with adrenals 15 S10 MC attacks (re-rolling misses) at I4 on the charge for 510 points ( I think).

Ratius wrote:Daemonettes.
Squad of 20, 4 attacks on the charge=80 total, all rending, I6 so likely to go first and a 5+ inv save.

I second that one, Daemonettes can be horrible in close combat! especially if you get a bunch of rends!

Maxed out platoon of Commissars and Sergeants with power weapons. The front line gets 30 power attacks on the charge with 45 wounds to mow through before you start to get into the power weapons.

And if you're talking DKoK, those power attacks are Power fists.
Sure, it's 625 points, but who cares?

Harliquins.... for sure

Also what about a Destroyer lord w/ orb and warsytch in a squad of wraiths? Thats alot of killing on the charge.

Also an squad of TH/SS Termies w/ Lysander in it.

Does 2 Deamon Princes w/ MoN wings and Warptime count as a unit? Yes they do. The HQ unit.

I'd comfortably throw my Necron Wraiths at anything I've seen in here.

9 wraiths, STR6 I6, with a 3+ invulnerable save, a 4+ WBB, a second 4+ WBB if the first one fails, getting support from a Necron Lord who bypasses Armour and Invul saves...

They teleport out of combat every Necron turn so that they can charge back in.

Fafnir wrote:Paladins. They're like a walking glacier of death. And you can ouflank them.

How do you outflank with them?

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Paladins. They're like a walking glacier of death. And you can ouflank them.

How do you outflank with them?

Grant them scout with a Grand Master.

Remember Dash no supporting units or IC's that aggainst the rules, only the base squad and upgrades for the squad.

Death Company, 30 guys w jump packs, lamarties (he is a unit upgrade), 15 power weapons, 15 thunder hammers, 15 plasma pistols, and 15 infernus pistols. 2000+ points of death lol.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Paladins. They're like a walking glacier of death. And you can ouflank them.

How do you outflank with them?

Grant them scout with a Grand Master.

So scout them, and then reserve them, that means they can flank? Interesting. Did not know that.

doubled wrote:Remember Dash no supporting units or IC's that aggainst the rules, only the base squad and upgrades for the squad.

Death Company, 30 guys w jump packs, lamarties (he is a unit upgrade), 15 power weapons, 15 thunder hammers, 15 plasma pistols, and 15 infernus pistols. 2000+ points of death lol.

I see your death company and raise you a Green Tide! Infinity plus one boyz as meatshields for one power klaw! Take that!

Deathcult Assassins of course.

How bout incubi? a full squad could just tear things up. A klaviex with demiklavies just makes them even more deadly.

Oh! dont forget the onslaught and murderous assualt.

29 ard' boyz with nob with power klaw. Dead Killy! The few times vie used blood claws they arnet that bad, just get them into combat ang let a wolf guard lead em

Brother SRM wrote:Assault Terminators are nasty. Black Templar assault Terminators with lightning claws and furious charge are nastier.

AACNMTC baby !

The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Charge a 12 man squad into 5 TH/SS Terminators (arguably the most resilient unit in the game).

48 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 32 hits, 16 wounds, 5.33 unsaved wounds, Terminators are dead. And that unit of DCA is 20 points cheaper than 5 Terminators...

Those Wraiths amuse me, they can't handle DCA

3 Wraiths = 120 points
8 DCA = 120 points

Both are I6, so they go simo

DCA have 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.67 unsaved wounds, and do not get WBB because the DCA have power weapons.

Wraiths have 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds

DCA on average will win combat by a small margin and will wipe the Wraith squad frequently.

This is of course ignoring any outside support from ICs.

DCA are pretty nasty. I had a group of them, 10ish get a charge off on 5 of my TH/SS Terms and EC. 1 survived and killed 2. It probably would have went better if my LrC didn't get immobilized and I had to get out and go look for targets.

DCA can never be outside a transport, potentially if I was able to catch them with a LrC firing a full load they could be crippled in 1 shooting phase.

Ork boys, with the mandatory nob upgrades. Yes, they'll get shot up a bit while closing. Yes, they'll get smacked around a bit before they can hit back. But there will still be enough bodies left to bog down nearly anything that they can't kill, outright, which is more than worth the meager price per boy.

Genestealers with a Broodlord can be nasty. Have the Broodlord throw Hypnotic Gaze on that PFist sergeant/klawnob, and they won't be doing much of anything to support their own squad. The Broodlord also puts most ICs to shame in terms of raw attack power, but is merely a leader upgrade for the unit.

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Charge a 12 man squad into 5 TH/SS Terminators (arguably the most resilient unit in the game).

48 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 32 hits, 16 wounds, 5.33 unsaved wounds, Terminators are dead. And that unit of DCA is 20 points cheaper than 5 Terminators...

Those Wraiths amuse me, they can't handle DCA

3 Wraiths = 120 points
8 DCA = 120 points

Both are I6, so they go simo

DCA have 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.67 unsaved wounds, and do not get WBB because the DCA have power weapons.

Wraiths have 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds

DCA on average will win combat by a small margin and will wipe the Wraith squad frequently.

This is of course ignoring any outside support from ICs.

Put the mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder bubbles with the wraiths, and the tables turn dramatically

mulkers wrote:Put the mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder bubbles with the wraiths, and the tables turn dramatically

Except the point of this thread is the units are not supported by other units.

mulkers wrote:

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Charge a 12 man squad into 5 TH/SS Terminators (arguably the most resilient unit in the game).

48 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 32 hits, 16 wounds, 5.33 unsaved wounds, Terminators are dead. And that unit of DCA is 20 points cheaper than 5 Terminators...

Those Wraiths amuse me, they can't handle DCA

3 Wraiths = 120 points
8 DCA = 120 points

Both are I6, so they go simo

DCA have 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.67 unsaved wounds, and do not get WBB because the DCA have power weapons.

Wraiths have 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds

DCA on average will win combat by a small margin and will wipe the Wraith squad frequently.

This is of course ignoring any outside support from ICs.

Put the mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder bubbles with the wraiths, and the tables turn dramatically

Insert a few Jokaero and the Monolith is dead. Insert a Libby /w Hammerhand and Quicksilver and the DCAs strike first and wound on 3s.

really? no bloodletters?

bloodletters>khorne berserkerz in CC

A nice big unit of Hormagaunts is up there for me. Don't have the codex to hand (curse you work!), but I'm pretty sure you can give them extra str and init?.
If so that is a whole lot of gribbly nastiness coming at ya!


Edit: oooooo 100 posts!! Go me!

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Meh, Ork boyz are still better IMO.

trewbarton wrote:Tau broadside

wtf ?

Definitely a squad of 20 bloodletters getting 60 str5 initiative5 power weapon attacks on the charge are pretty nasty in cc. What else, they worship Khorne. Lolz

I'm surprised I haven't seen my pick: Salamander Assault Termis w/ thunder hammers and Storm Shields.
2+/3++ saves with rerollable Thunderhammer swings? YES!

NagothDaCleaver wrote:I'm surprised I haven't seen my pick: Salamander Assault Termis w/ thunder hammers and Storm Shields.
2+/3++ saves with rerollable Thunderhammer swings? YES!

No re-rolls, unless you add a near-200 pt. Special Character to the equation. Point for point then, Assault Termies without Vulkan are probably better (e.g., for 400 points you would get 10 Assault Termies on one side, and Vulkan + 5 Assault Termies on other... mathhammer go!).

Many Tyranid units can be really nasty in close combat. Upgraded Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Raveners...

Until you charge through cover that is. Then it's basically suiciding the brood. Thanks for giving one of the most assault centric armies in the game NO ASSAULT GRENADES. Really...thanks for that.

Gotta love seeing a brood of Genestealers charge into some Grey Knight Terminators, have a Libarian close by case Sanctuary and seeing my 'stealers drop from I 6 to I 1 and get butchered like nothing.

Thanks again Cruddace.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Meh, Ork boyz are still better IMO.

Actually, 150 pts DCA vs 150 pts Ork Boyz incl. Nob w/PK, DCA should win definitively if they get the charge. WS5, Str 4, 5++ and 4 attacks simply overwhelms Boyz' numbers, and the Orks either lose horribly to fearless wounds or fail Ld and get swept.

If you swap Arcoflags for DCA, though, Boyz simply lose. Doesn't matter if they charge or get charged, arcoflags are basically tailor-made to crush 6+ armor saves in CC.

What about BA Death Company w/ power weapons and Death Company Dread?

DE beastmaster pack... they are brutal...

the kymeras are damn hard to kill and the razorwing flock do crazy dmg

they made my ork boys look like grots, it made me sad

sourclams wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Meh, Ork boyz are still better IMO.

Actually, 150 pts DCA vs 150 pts Ork Boyz incl. Nob w/PK, DCA should win definitively if they get the charge. WS5, Str 4, 5++ and 4 attacks simply overwhelms Boyz' numbers, and the Orks either lose horribly to fearless wounds or fail Ld and get swept.

And if the Ork Boyz charge the DCA, which is more likely as they've got Waaagh!, they kill the assassins. Math time!


DCA vs. Boyz!

150 points is 10 assassins. 150 points is 20 boyz, a power klaw and a Boss Pole IIRC.

Assassins charging:

Assassins go first with 40 attacks, 26,666 hits, rounded to 27. Of these 27, half or 14,5 wound. Rounded up, that's 15. The Nob takes one of the wounds, meaning that 14 boyz die. 5 boyz retaliate with 3 attacks each, that's 7,5 hits, rounded up to 8. Of these 8, only 2,666, rounded to 3, wound. The assassins then block 1 of these, leading to two dead assassins. The Nob then swings with 3 Klaw attacks. 1,5 hit, rounded to two. With rounding, one of these hit and kill, leading to 3 dead assassins versus a massive 14 dead Orks and one wound on the Nob. If they're not swept, the Boyz die next turn. Overwhelming assassin victory.

Boyz charging:
Assassins go first with 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds. Nob takes one wound, so 9 Boyz die. 10 boyz retaliate with 4 attacks each. 40 attacks, 20 hit, 10 wound. Of these 10, 3,333 are saved, rounded down to 3. The Klaw then attacks, scoring 2 hits. Of these 2 hits, after rounding 1 wounds pass invuln saves. This gives us 8 dead assassins versus 9 dead Orks. Orks are fearless and as such probably lose one boy to No Retreat!

Turn 2: 4 assassins attack with 3 each, causing 8 hits, 4 wounds which means 4 boyz die. 5 boyz retaliate with 3 attacks each, causing 7,5 rounded to 8 hits and 4 wounds. Of these wounds after rounding, one is saved, leaving one assassin left. The Nob then swings, scoring 2 hits after rounding which causes more than one unsaved wound. Da Orkz win!

Add to this that the boyz don't require you to use a useful HQ slot to unlock and the fact that they're scoring by default, as well as their ability to tarpit stuff and actually survive being shot at for more than a turn and I'd say the Boyz are better. I could mathhammer a dreadnought versus DCA and the same versus Boyz to make my point even clearer...

And if the Ork Boyz charge the DCA, which is more likely as they've got Waaagh!, they kill the assassins. Math time!


DCA vs. Boyz!

150 points is 10 assassins. 150 points is 20 boyz, a power klaw and a Boss Pole IIRC.

Assassins charging:

Assassins go first with 40 attacks, 26,666 hits, rounded to 27. Of these 27, half or 14,5 wound. Rounded up, that's 15. The Nob takes one of the wounds, meaning that 14 boyz die. 5 boyz retaliate with 3 attacks each, that's 7,5 hits, rounded up to 8. Of these 8, only 2,666, rounded to 3, wound. The assassins then block 1 of these, leading to two dead assassins. The Nob then swings with 3 Klaw attacks. 1,5 hit, rounded to two. With rounding, one of these hit and kill, leading to 3 dead assassins versus a massive 14 dead Orks and one wound on the Nob. If they're not swept, the Boyz die next turn. Overwhelming assassin victory.

Boyz charging:
Assassins go first with 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds. Nob takes one wound, so 9 Boyz die. 10 boyz retaliate with 4 attacks each. 40 attacks, 20 hit, 10 wound. Of these 10, 3,333 are saved, rounded down to 3. The Klaw then attacks, scoring 2 hits. Of these 2 hits, after rounding 1 wounds pass invuln saves. This gives us 8 dead assassins versus 9 dead Orks. Orks are fearless and as such probably lose one boy to No Retreat!

Turn 2: 4 assassins attack with 3 each, causing 8 hits, 4 wounds which means 4 boyz die. 5 boyz retaliate with 3 attacks each, causing 7,5 rounded to 8 hits and 4 wounds. Of these wounds after rounding, one is saved, leaving one assassin left. The Nob then swings, scoring 2 hits after rounding which causes more than one unsaved wound. Da Orkz win!

Add to this that the boyz don't require you to use a useful HQ slot to unlock and the fact that they're scoring by default, as well as their ability to tarpit stuff and actually survive being shot at for more than a turn and I'd say the Boyz are better. I could mathhammer a dreadnought versus DCA and the same versus Boyz to make my point even clearer...

The problem you guys have with those huge squads like Ork Boyz is it's impossible to get them all into combat on the charge. At best you'd end up with around a third making it into base to base contact, so counting the charge bonus for all of them isn't really reflecting the squads charge damage capability.

30 man Death Company with Lemartes, all carrying jump packs, a couple with thunder hammers and most of the unit with power weapons charging. Go ahead, try to survive it
(I don't want to hear the "but rage ruins the unit" argument-I know how to deal with rage)

and if we mean a legit unit you can use in game I'll change it to 5 DCs+Lemartes, jump packs and power swords. Kills a decked out nob squad without even blinking

As has been stated many times already, Tyranids have some amazing choices. I've found the lowly Termagants and Hormagaunts to be really mean when upgraded. The termagants especially, because folks just aren't expecting how good they are with the upgrades (adrenal gland, poison) and they get those upgrades so cheaply. It is anecdotal evidence to my argument, but I have knocked out terminator units on a 20 strong upgraded 'gant charge. No power weapon, just sheer wait of attacks and rerolls.

The Nightbringer......

I am deffinatly going to have to go with a squad of thunder wolf cavalry everyone with storm shields and one thunder hammer everyone else has pistols

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Seriously? HOW can you even guess what the rolls would be?! ITS A GAME OF CHANCE !!! Yes you can swing things in your favour, but really.....do me a favour all you mathhammerer's out there....take 6 Die, and tell me what the die come up as BEFORE you throw them....

Done it? Good.....Now, how did you do? Really? No I dont know.....BECAUSE I DID NOT SEE YOU ROLL THEM AND BECAUSE THEY ARE CUBES OF RANDOMNESS YOU CANNOT SECOND GUESS THEM!!!!

If you want a game of probability, buy a math puzzle book.

You CANNOT second guess these things.......please dont waste your time trying.....

He isn't second guessing, he's giving the averages. Obviously there will be greatly varying results both ways in each seperate game.. but it allows us to see if there's a relative margin of power difference between the two equal-points-worth of models.

I'm going to have to go with the swarmlord with tyrant gaurds all armed with bone swords. Cause that's been banned at FLGS nothing is more hilarious then watching your opponents commander get ws and bs 1 and striking last then bone sabre time with preferred enemy.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

Seriously? HOW can you even guess what the rolls would be?! ITS A GAME OF CHANCE !!! Yes you can swing things in your favour, but really.....do me a favour all you mathhammerer's out there....take 6 Die, and tell me what the die come up as BEFORE you throw them....

Done it? Good.....Now, how did you do? Really? No I dont know.....BECAUSE I DID NOT SEE YOU ROLL THEM AND BECAUSE THEY ARE CUBES OF RANDOMNESS YOU CANNOT SECOND GUESS THEM!!!!

If you want a game of probability, buy a math puzzle book.

You CANNOT second guess these things.......please dont waste your time trying.....

Players who know the average outcome of a fight has a much better chance of making a good move than players who do not. Besides, it's a thread about "best" something, how in the name of the Emperor's left foot are we supposed to back up our claims if we AREN'T using maths?

-Loki- wrote:The problem you guys have with those huge squads like Ork Boyz is it's impossible to get them all into combat on the charge. At best you'd end up with around a third making it into base to base contact, so counting the charge bonus for all of them isn't really reflecting the squads charge damage capability.

Then there's the fact that no matter what kind of Ork boy it is, they've got some kind of gun, whereas DCA don't. Another huge advantage of the boyz.

timetowaste85 wrote:30 man Death Company with Lemartes, all carrying jump packs, a couple with thunder hammers and most of the unit with power weapons charging. Go ahead, try to survive it
(I don't want to hear the "but rage ruins the unit" argument-I know how to deal with rage)

If we go down that road: Green Tide. Infinity+1 Boyz. Have fun!

Yes, but it is not about hammering the odds. You just have to know the relative stat lines and armaments of the opposing squad.

If your boys are generally better then they should win. But stranger things have happened.

I just dont see the point in trying to second guess what is basically a cubed random generator....

Have you ever read 'The DiceMan'....Thats what happens when you take your love of cubed random a little too far my friend...

Dont let it happen to you!

-Loki- wrote:

mulkers wrote:Put the mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder bubbles with the wraiths, and the tables turn dramatically

Except the point of this thread is the units are not supported by other units.

Also, the "mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder" is hundreds of points of support. With that much support devoted to the DCA, the don't just win, they win by an obscene degree.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sourclams wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Meh, Ork boyz are still better IMO.

Actually, 150 pts DCA vs 150 pts Ork Boyz incl. Nob w/PK, DCA should win definitively if they get the charge. WS5, Str 4, 5++ and 4 attacks simply overwhelms Boyz' numbers, and the Orks either lose horribly to fearless wounds or fail Ld and get swept.

And if the Ork Boyz charge the DCA, which is more likely as they've got Waaagh!, they kill the assassins. Math time!


DCA vs. Boyz!

150 points is 10 assassins. 150 points is 20 boyz, a power klaw and a Boss Pole IIRC.... <snip>

I'm not quite sure what you were proving here (also, your math is off in the math-hammer and the Orks are slightly more expensive then the DCA); Sourclams said that DCA definitely win if they get the charge, and... they do.

The problem with the way you are looking at the question ("who is best in CC, point for point?") is you're only taking into account how well a unit does on the charge, not what kind of attrition it does even if it gets swept. After all, for any unit to even be in the running for "best CC unit", it has to be something that smashes face on the charge (which certainly both boys and DCA do).

But also notice that even if a unit of boys gets the charge on the DCA, the boys come out of it below half strength (thus unable to regroup if it ever fails a morale test). That is, even if they win, they have suffered a dramatic loss to their combat potential. I mean, what's more threatening, 6 DCA, or 7 boys and a PK-nob (with 1 wound)? Also, let's remember that we're talking best "units"; the boys-with-PK-nob is a full unit, including optional upgrades. DCA are just one type of Inquisitorial Henchman available in an Inquisitorial Henchman Warband. The value of IHWs is the insane degree they can be tailored: made more stompy with Arco-flagellents, more durable with Crusaders, more anti-horde with flamers, and so on.

A better question is, what is in the top tier of CC, point for point? Ork Boys are certainly up there, with caveats, and Warbands are up there, with different caveats. There are others in that group: Khorn Bezerkers, Generstealers, yadda yadda.

To me, the thing that puts Warbands in general over the top is the insane degree to which they can both be tailored, and can be buffed by the rest of the madness in the codex. (And by "madness", I mean things like the I-roll-1-d6-now-your-unit-dies Psychotroke grenades, as well as simply awesome buffs like Rad Grenades and Hammerhand. All of which you can get in multiple units in an army. Ugh... the more I think about it, the more annoyed I am at Matt Ward...)

As an aside;

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Add to this that the boyz don't require you to use a useful HQ slot to unlock and the fact that they're scoring by default, as well as their ability to tarpit stuff and actually survive being shot at for more than a turn and I'd say the Boyz are better. I could mathhammer a dreadnought versus DCA and the same versus Boyz to make my point even clearer...

Are you seriously saying people would complain about being "forced" to take Coteaz? Are we talking about the same insanely under-costed Coteaz here? The guy on page 86, the guy who has over 100 points worth of wargear and upgrades, plus 3 psychic powers, plus 4 special rules, plus he opens up the best unit in the codex, but only costs 100 points? That Coteaz?

After the game that I had last weekend, I have to throw Grotesques in here. A 10 man Grotesque squad is 350 pts, which is quite expensive, but their nastiness is just wrong. 4 attacks on the charge, at a minimum of strength 5, with WS4, makes them really really nasty. Yes, they have crap for a save, and no power weapons unless you wanna buy a SGT upgrade and the weapon, but for what they can do, I love em and hope to get a bunch of their models to build up my Coven ally for my Kabal when GW releases them!!!

I don't think Grotesques fit the bill. In my experience their lack of power weapons really hurts them when fighting an equivalent (points wise/ CC focused) power armored unit. They'll kill cheap low save hordes like its their job though.

Death company? Loads of attacks, and feel no pain.

Genestealers all the way!

You can get a big unit of 20, deploy behind a wall 12" away, move over the wall, run, and charge instantly. With toxin sacs they get 3 WS6 S4 poisoned attacks with rending (with re-rolls of 1 to hit if you give them sythcing talons too) the broodlord also has more attacks and a higher WS, plus he can take the option to ID stuff on a 6 to wound and has psychic abilities which can stop an enemy attacking all together.

Rippers.

@Devastator, I've taken down a bloodthirster with rippers!

Stealers are the best imo.

Blood Thirster of Khorne. GD power activate!

or Fire Warriors, they are a force of destruction in melee

Another vote for the deathcult assassins. 4 strength 4 power weapon attacks at i6 and ws5 each is going to spoil most unit's day. That you can put them in a land raider or give them an inquisitor with rad grenades is a big bonus.

Nob mob on bikes for the win.

For isolated unit v unit either DCA or Genestealers.

General purpose probably Black Templar Terminators.

Unit of 20 Plaguebearers will be pretty good, if only because they'll be able to outlast just about anything. Always getting a 5+ and then most of the time another 4+ on top of that is very good, plus that T5 is a boon

Angry Marines Terminators with powerfeet and dual chainfists, supported by the banner of feth you.

Gun drones, I know they shouldn't be there but they seem to just turn ninja somehow against the worst odds you throw them at.

As my first post on this forum i shall lay my bid down as the BEST hand to hand unit in the entire game of 40k. Statisticly speaking.

first place
With the advent of the newest and shall i say cheeziest edition to space marine codex's the Grey Knights. i declare
Purifiers as the absolute best hand to hand unit in the game. with wide variety of options great armor, decent point cost for what you get. plus a cheader filled psi power that anihilates enemies before the combat starts. period.

second place
my pick for second place was a serious toss up. but i pick sanguinary guard, for 200 pts you get 5 guys that deepstrike acurately all carry power weapons, if enraged get furious charge, given the appropriate hq can be used as troop choices. sufficient options to lay waste to both troops and armor.

third place
this one i cannot believe no one even mentioned. they were for the longest time the absolute epidimy of evil encarnite in hand to hand. back in 3rd ed i saw a unit of these reduce my entire army to a soultry 3 marines in a single turn.
how could anyone forget howling banshies.

I still lean on Genestealers, considering they're a smallish unit, get rending by default, can take upgrades that give them rerolls on 1's to hit, furious charge, and poison giving them rerolls against MEQs to wound, meaning more rending hits, and get infiltrate.

Then they get a 'sergeant' upgrade in the form of the Broodlord, which makes most ICs weep in terms of damage output, gives the squad outflank and carries some nasty pyschic powers that can completely negate hidden power fists.

im2randomghgh wrote:Angry Marines Terminators with powerfeet and dual chainfists, supported by the banner of feth you.

Toss in a libby with the 'Fight harder, you f***!" power or a commander with an adimentium sack full of power doorknobs and that unit will tear through anything.

20 daemonettes will take you any day

20 Bloodletters on the charge 60 strength 5 power weapons attacks.

30 gaunts with devourers will drop those demons before they even get to assault.

CushionRide wrote:30 gaunts with devourers will drop those demons before they even get to assault.

This isn't the point of the thread. Most assault units can be destroyed through shooting before they reach assault.

i understand the point of the thread do you? the point is what is the best overall assault unit, based on points, survivablilty, damage, attacks, quantity. your demons yes have great attack potential, but low survivablilty. i used them before. my bloodletters and deamonettes were shot to death by necron fire before they could even use their awesome hand to hand ability. so in that instance, i dont think they are that great.

this is why i voted on purifiers. you have options, do you your demons have options, no, purifiers can combat up and benifit from a unit of 10 there by using 4 psicannons in one group, and hand to hand in the other, both groups can then utilize their psi powers to beef their str or dish out auto wounds for the assault. or ... keep them together for a rip roaring full close combat squad. for their points purifiers in my opinion are the BEST hand to hand available.

if we left point cost out of it, then paladins are by far the best. purly because they have 2 wounds and you can equip them differently so you can exploit wound allocation. and i think even they would wipe the floor with your demons.

Brother SRM wrote:Assault Terminators are nasty. Black Templar assault Terminators with lightning claws and furious charge are nastier.

Beat me to it for the BT's!

Well, seeing how you have to have a Vow, you take perferred enemy, which gives your BT lightning claw terminators with Furious Charge Re-roll to hit and Re-roll to wound at Initiative 5 and with a basic squad of 5 thats 20 power weapon attacks that are mostly going to wound... pretty wicked

deceiver... mainly because he wins durability in a 1 on 1 fight (if ur better than me... i run, if you can't hurt me i stay!)

Otherwise +1 BT!

UNITS, not IC's MC's or other GW cheadar

CushionRide wrote:i understand the point of the thread do you? the point is what is the best overall assault unit, based on points, survivablilty, damage, attacks, quantity. your demons yes have great attack potential, but low survivablilty. i used them before. my bloodletters and deamonettes were shot to death by necron fire before they could even use their awesome hand to hand ability. so in that instance, i dont think they are that great.

this is why i voted on purifiers. you have options, do you your demons have options, no, purifiers can combat up and benifit from a unit of 10 there by using 4 psicannons in one group, and hand to hand in the other, both groups can then utilize their psi powers to beef their str or dish out auto wounds for the assault. or ... keep them together for a rip roaring full close combat squad. for their points purifiers in my opinion are the BEST hand to hand available.

if we left point cost out of it, then paladins are by far the best. purly because they have 2 wounds and you can equip them differently so you can exploit wound allocation. and i think even they would wipe the floor with your demons.

You deep struck too far away then.....Even if 3 bloodletters reached that necron unit they would sweep them........

doubled wrote:Gun drones, I know they shouldn't be there but they seem to just turn ninja somehow against the worst odds you throw them at.

QFT, poor stats, but they smash face in melee...

Space Wolf Blood Claws with Lukas the Trickster.

This

I'm going to throw my hat in with Genestealers, come to think of it. For the point cost of 10 Stealers+ a Broodlord (200 Points) you get a very, very nasty CC squad that is very good at gettig into CC and doing alot of damage.

Ummm Veteran Vanguard? as they can use heroic intervention when they deep strike and assault the enemy right away

avondale wrote:Ummm Veteran Vanguard? as they can use heroic intervention when they deep strike and assault the enemy right away

By this logic, Stealth suits are almost as good because they can DS and then go into combat the next turn!

Just 'cause you can jump out of aircraft and hope you land amidst your enemies, blade and pistol flailing wildy, doesn't mean you're actually any good at combat. - The horrible truth of Vanguard Veterans.

Genestealers. High WS, INT and either rending or re-roll 1's depending on "gear"

Lord_Osma wrote:Genestealers. High WS, INT and either rending or re-roll 1's depending on "gear"

They can have the Scything Talons and Rending Claws at the same time.