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Post by: Rogueyopants
Why does Games Workshop i.e. "Evil Empire" charge so much money for their models (If you ask them, they will rant on about how it is some sort of special plastic WHICH i know is bloody horse crap, and they say they ship it from Europe and all this other bull i don't want to here (I never buy from games workshop cause of that reason which makes me buy from Maelstrom and other discount online stores)-a lot of their main player base is kids under 18, and their blowing their money away because simply they haven't herd of any other tabletop modeling game like DBMM or DBR, or Flames of war and etc. And they just plain rip them off (You know 1 Space marine will cost around $4.20 NZD which is flipping outrageous. If you go to Warlord games they charge a box of 24 hard-plastic models for only around $22 NZD (which is like a dollar per model) where as a box of 10 space marines or 10 orks cost $45 NZD
Its really a shame cause i like the Sie-fie idea and i love playing this game with these Skirmish based rules (I mean i have a alot of models but it has cost me over Thousands of dollars to get them (I have a job so its not to hard to come by but still...)
What do you guys think?
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Post by: purplefood
Plastic is getting more expensive...
The molds are also apparently expensive.
It's probably more expensive for you since you're in NZ though...
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Post by: Commisar Von Humps
Quite simply, its Leze Faire(i think thats how its spelt... lol), they can charge whatever they want because we will pay almost anything for our plastic little men.
And truth be told, they make an obscene profit, i heard somewhere thats its like 77%(which im sure is an exageration  )
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Post by: micahaphone
Sculpting and molding take up a lot of time- it's sort of like the pharmaceutical industry: just because the pills you buy cost a few cents each to make, they have to charge $12 a pop because they sunk a few million into 3 different research projects and only this one worked out.
Also, New Zealanders & Aussies have to pay extra. Just the luck of the draw.
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Post by: purplefood
Laissez faire?
Economic policy which i don't think is used in the UK...
At least not across the board.
Not sure whether that affects things over seas.
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Post by: Rogueyopants
purplefood wrote:It's probably more expensive for you since you're in NZ though...
Yes but if you look in every country and compare exchange rates it all works out to be the same $$$
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Post by: jacetms87
In short, because people are willing to pay for them. They are a business like any other. They are looking to maximize profits. This is not a bad thing, nor is it a good thing. It is simply a business.
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Post by: Rogueyopants
Oh, do Kiwis and aussies have to pay extra...How come?
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Post by: happydude
Commisar Von Humps wrote:Quite simply, its Leze Faire(i think thats how its spelt... lol), they can charge whatever they want because we will pay almost anything for our plastic little men.
And truth be told, they make an obscene profit, i heard somewhere thats its like 77%(which im sure is an exageration  )
It is a 68% Markup in reality from what I have been told. I decided to push the company away for good they do not deserve the money any longer. PP here I come!
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Post by: Necrobat
Rogueyopants wrote:Oh, do Kiwis and aussies have to pay extra...How come?
Because our prices were set at a margain back when we got about US$0.50 instead of the 1:1 exchange we have now.
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Post by: Rogueyopants
Well that's a a bit unlucky.....
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Post by: Potato_God
uggh. this again. while it bothers me that the models are expensive, possibly a good deal more than necessary, I'm not gonna  and moan about it, when I know full well that
-I'm going to buy more models
- GW has forged an amazing universe, has created a spectacular universe, has (indirectly) created a fascinating and intriguing culture (Dakka included  ), all while "popularizing" (relatively speaking) wargaming
-IM GOING TO BUY MORE MODELS
I'm not saying that GW hasn't done some jerky things and made some pretty big mistakes, but I think calling them an "evil Empire" i a bit much.
If this makes me an addict/apologist/moron, Ima sorry.
however, I will say the Aussie Markup thing is probably that should definitely get fixed.
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Post by: Brother SRM
This thread again? Well, I guess last week is over and there's room for another.
Short answer: Because they can. The market will bear costs where they are, and GW is happy with that. They know they have most of us hooked so they can get away with it. Saying that lowering prices would bring in more players is just preaching to the choir here.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Commisar Von Humps wrote:Quite simply, its Leze Faire(i think thats how its spelt... lol), they can charge whatever they want because we will pay almost anything for our plastic little men.
And truth be told, they make an obscene profit, i heard somewhere thats its like 77%(which im sure is an exageration  )
They make an "obscene profit" before the operating costs of their stores, etc is figured in.
In reality, they're barely turning a profit once those factors are considered.
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Post by: Commisar Von Humps
purplefood wrote:Laissez faire?
Economic policy which i don't think is used in the UK...
At least not across the board.
Not sure whether that affects things over seas.
 Woops! My bad, in AP world we learned about this a while ago along with some others, i was thinking of free market, lol.
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Post by: Rogueyopants
Yea guys fare enough, good comment by potato_god...I am gonna by more models as well, be it games workshop or an online store. lol you mad a very good point
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Rogueyopants wrote:Yea guys fare enough, good comment by potato_god...I am gonna by more models as well, be it games workshop or an online store. lol you mad a very good point
You seem new to this, so let me say the same thing I always say to new Aussie and Kiwi players:
Don't buy locally. It is a waste of time and a waste of your money. Go here instead. Half the price. Free shipping. Started buying there a few years ago and never looked back. Since then many, many people from Dakka have taken up the Maelstrom banner (even those not in Oz/NZ).
Save your money.
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Post by: Aerethan
Hi, I'm Aerethan, I'm here about the dead horse. I brought my own stick.
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Post by: Perkustin
Pretty niche hobby. Anyway, 40 squids for a videogame, 40-50 squids to get ratarsed in town, 20-70 bucks to see a football match.... It's all relative.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
purplefood wrote:Laissez faire?
Economic policy which i don't think is used in the UK...
At least not across the board.
Not sure whether that affects things over seas.
Thought is was L'ass est mort
but I could be wrong.
Anyhoo there is not a lot of laissez faire where GW are concerned
and is the price of plastic rising as much as suggested?
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Post by: infinite_array
Is someone complaining about GW's prices?
1
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Post by: Aerethan
I doubt the price of plastic has increased the 40% that prices have increased over the last 10 years. And that is assuming the now old pricing of $35 per ~20 models. With the new pricing and packaging structure the price per box is down i.e. orc boys at $29 for 10 when 2 months ago they were $35 for 19.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I do love how these threads turn into those that want to discuss GW's pricing structure, and those that think that clever images and cute phrases constitute constructive rebuttal...
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Post by: Aerethan
quick math put 1 model at 19 per $35 at $1.84 where as now that same model is $2.90 which is a 63% price increase per model at the new pricing structure. So it was 40% over 10 years then 60% in the span of a month on certain models.
GW=winning
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Post by: happydude
aerethan wrote:Hi, I'm Aerethan, I'm here about the dead horse. I brought my own stick.
I HAVE to sig this!
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Makes me feel all fuzzy, especially when brought on for no new reason.
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Post by: Asuron
H.B.M.C. wrote:Rogueyopants wrote:Yea guys fare enough, good comment by potato_god...I am gonna by more models as well, be it games workshop or an online store. lol you mad a very good point
You seem new to this, so let me say the same thing I always say to new Aussie and Kiwi players:
Don't buy locally. It is a waste of time and a waste of your money. Go here instead. Half the price. Free shipping. Started buying there a few years ago and never looked back. Since then many, many people from Dakka have taken up the Maelstrom banner (even those not in Oz/NZ).
Save your money. 
Go Wayland instead
Tried maelstrom, its slow, crap customer service and adding the shipping to Wayland, the prices are still the same regardless, with Wayland sometimes being even cheaper
You'll get it fast with Wayland for the same cost essentially and you wont have a service which ignores emails for a refund after they offered one in the first place
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Post by: Chowderhead
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Post by: Starfarer
Perkustin wrote:Pretty niche hobby. Anyway, 40 squids for a videogame, 40-50 squids to get ratarsed in town, 20-70 bucks to see a football match.... It's all relative.
This pretty much sums it up for me. Everything costs money. A crazy night out could be the equivalent of the cost of 1/3 of your average 40k army. At least with GW you have something that can be used over and over again. The amount I've spent going out over the years could have funded countless armies and all I have to show for it is hazy memories. In some cases no memory.
When you're young, it sucks dealing with the high prices. When you're older and gainfully employed, it's not as big of a deal. Still expensive, but online retailers help soften the blow. However, I will say if you game at local shops, at least buy something each time you game there. It's always nice to support local shops in general(and by that I mean locally owned) but if you're using their services, make and effort to support them - even if it's just a bottle of paint or two.
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Post by: infinite_array
H.B.M.C. wrote:I do love how these threads turn into those that want to discuss GW's pricing structure, and those that think that clever images and cute phrases constitute constructive rebuttal...
The thing is, we've heard these threads before. And before then. And before THEN. The very thing man did when he finally evolved enough to articulate sounds into meaningful language was complain about GW's prices.
GW will charge what they want to, because people will buy it. I had to physically restrain myself from pre-ordering that new Tomb Kings Necrosphinx kit, and I'm currently looking into selling my Space Marines (my only 40k army) so I can buy EPIC and BLOOD BOWL.
Don't you see? Unless GW officially closes down, it can charge, and will charge, higher prices. And there will always be people who will buy those models. If a person is will to sell out $700 for a single forgeworld model, let alone even more, then what's stopping them from getting $100 of models a month?
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
When your are older and gainfully employed with 2.4 kids and a picket fence to whitewash you may need to reconsider Cadaver!
As for spending £50 quid to pee and puke down the lavvie?
Automatically Appended Next Post: We may have had these threads before.
But do you not see the paradox of using an unoriginal off the peg image with white bold type face to berate this thread.
We have had all these pictorial cliches trawled out as if some kind of witty remark has been made.
Would be so much better for people to respond with sparkling wit, not flat watered down ale.
Or refrain from posting at all?
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Post by: Pacific
infinite_array wrote:
The thing is, we've heard these threads before. And before then. And before THEN. The very thing man did when he finally evolved enough to articulate sounds into meaningful language was complain about GW's prices.
I actually lol'd at that
The people who cared about the hobby initially, how made GW what it is, have been forced out of the door by the bean counters. I still believe there are a core of people, the designers and a few stragglers of old-guard (Jervis Johnson etc.) who genuinely love what they do and want the best for the hobby, but their actions are controlled by sinister overlords, who sit in darkened rooms smoking and with their hands templed and simply nod in approval when a goblin underling shows them a plan for the next cunning money-making scheme.
Root of all the evil: going public with the company on the crest of the LoTR boom, foolishly believing that such a revenue influx would be sustainable over the long-term. This is why practically every release, every change in the rules and new product release in the past 4 or 5 years, has just been an attempt to make maximum profit for minimum expenditure. While I don't have a problem with that, the games themselves have suffered; 'apocalypse' of both 40k and WFB becoming the standard 'way to play' meaning that now massive expenditure is needed before you can field even a modest army.
- The sidelining of SG (really the proof of who is in control of the company, that much fun for $50 is not a wise idea)
- the cut backs of budget in both the production of WD (no 'journalism' any more because they can't afford to pay anyone to write anything that isn't an advert), and the lack of new artwork being produced (again - too expensive),
- cutting down the stores to one-man units, perhaps defeating the entire object of them existing (to attract more youngsters into the game), as it's difficult to run a demo game when you are trying to answer the phone, serve at the till and eat your lunch at the same time. Although perhaps that isn't an issue if the company is indeed switching to resin, as no responsible parent is going to let their younger child come within a mile of it.
I'm only half serious with these comments, but I genuinely believe we would be in a better position now if the company hadn't got greedy all those years ago and made the company public, and would now be in a position where it had the interests of the hobbyist, rather than the shareholder, at heart. And of course the company is still producing some beautiful stuff, and makes a lot of people happy (myself included often, despite this rantish post!) But, it's hard not to think of 'what could have been'.
Part of me hopes that the share price will drop enough that some philanthropist(?!) will make a majority buy out of the company, and then put a load of hobby-orientated guys back in charge of it as it once was. Any millionaires reading this who have this desire and have some spare change hanging around in your pocket, the onus is on you
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Post by: Aerethan
My second purchase after winning the lotto would be majority share at GW. My first purchase would be a Lotus Elise. Them's some sexy cars.
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Post by: Rogueyopants
I like chicken wing....
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Post by: kenshin620
Oh look, its this topic again
Well they're pretty much like any other big corperation, they charge 1/3-1/2 extra becuase of being a namebrand.
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Post by: Aerethan
Wal Mart is a big name and they charge pennies on the dollar for stuff.
Oddly enough, GW lost with wal mart some years ago on a distribution deal. GW wanted an ENTIRE aisle to themselves at full retail pricing. I can't imagine why they wouldn't compromise to such global sales and marketing. They just refused to play ball.
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Post by: Shepherd23
aerethan wrote:Wal Mart is a big name and they charge pennies on the dollar for stuff.
Oddly enough, GW lost with wal mart some years ago on a distribution deal. GW wanted an ENTIRE aisle to themselves at full retail pricing. I can't imagine why they wouldn't compromise to such global sales and marketing. They just refused to play ball.
If that is even half true then it really does mean that GW is run by the biggest morons to ever be in charge of anything.
And no, bulk plastic that is used to make models has not gone up in price significantly and no it isnt special. GW prices are just high because they think THEY are special. And since everyone keeps buying it they must be right.
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Post by: Aerethan
I believe it was in 2001 that they were in talks with wal mart, and wal mart declined due to the ridiculous demands and GW's inability to budge on pricing. Apparently GW felt they didn't need to exposure or cash flow at the time. I wonder if they still feel that way.
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Post by: col. krazy kenny
Oh look, it is this thread again.Anybody want any cheese to go with their Whine.I am still going to buy their products so is everyone else.New ,Used,Any way or how People are going to buy their products.At least we are finally Getting the big Plastic kits,instead of the Forge World Head aches.All of the New plastic big kits are worth their money.
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Post by: lucasbuffalo
One site I've grown to love now is miniaturemarket. (They advertise on Dakka so go use that link  )
I've ordered with them twice now with the best discount I've been able to find so far online.
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Post by: prototype_X
infinite_array wrote:
The thing is, we've heard these threads before. And before then. And before THEN. The very thing man did when he finally evolved enough to articulate sounds into meaningful language was complain about GW's prices.
sigd
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
I ain't so you are wrong
The big kits are still overpriced imho.
(compared to equivalent amount of plastics in all but a few of the scale models)
There have been dramatic price increases from some of the Japanese firms like Hasegawa.
Revell of Germany, Airfix and others based in Europe (and The USA afaik) have not had anything like the same level of price rises.
Oh look someone is going to say it's a niche luxury car in this sort of thread again in 5, 4, 3, 2,...
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Post by: Aerethan
IT"S A NICHE LUXURY CAR!!!!
couldn't resist. And car prices don't increase 60% because metal costs more. In fact, 60% increases just don't happen that often, yet GW does it so casually.
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Post by: Lunchb0x
I work(ed) in the toy/collectible industry for nearly 10 years...but still work injection molding...and what they charge for the ...unpainted, on the sprue , plastic little men...makes my head hurt. But I have also been playing this game(s) since I was a kid...and I am now a full grown fan boy...so I put up with it because I enjoy it.
The bit about GW and walmart, I am going to have to call BS about...what walmart requires of people to make them (wally world ) a customer, I dont think GW could meet even if they wanted too.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Commisar Von Humps wrote:Quite simply, its Leze Faire(i think thats how its spelt... lol), they can charge whatever they want because we will pay almost anything for our plastic little men.
And truth be told, they make an obscene profit, i heard somewhere thats its like 77%(which im sure is an exageration  )
There's exaggeration and utter bollocks.
Go have a look at their freely available year end results. I think you'll find that the actual profit is surprisingly low.
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Post by: Backfire
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I ain't so you are wrong The big kits are still overpriced imho. (compared to equivalent amount of plastics in all but a few of the scale models) There have been dramatic price increases from some of the Japanese firms like Hasegawa. Revell of Germany, Airfix and others based in Europe (and The USA afaik) have not had anything like the same level of price rises. Airfix is in China these days, this is why they prices are low. Plus, they are using mostly old (very old) molds bought at firesale-price from the bankrupcy of the original company... Automatically Appended Next Post: Pacific wrote: I'm only half serious with these comments, but I genuinely believe we would be in a better position now if the company hadn't got greedy all those years ago and made the company public, and would now be in a position where it had the interests of the hobbyist, rather than the shareholder, at heart. But that kind of stuff happens EVERY TIME a company gets big. You can't manage a corporation same way like you manage small business. I saw it happen with WotC too, exact same thing. Already there are people complaining that Privateer Press is gradually becoming more GW-like.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Backfire wrote:Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I ain't so you are wrong
The big kits are still overpriced imho.
(compared to equivalent amount of plastics in all but a few of the scale models)
There have been dramatic price increases from some of the Japanese firms like Hasegawa.
Revell of Germany, Airfix and others based in Europe (and The USA afaik) have not had anything like the same level of price rises.
Airfix is in China these days, this is why they prices are low.
Plus, they are using mostly old (very old) molds bought at firesale-price from the bankrupcy of the original company...
The moulds were essentially Airfix's anyway but they are also selling new toolings, eg 1/48 Sea Vixen £30, Bf109E-3/4 £15
There are plenty of new toolings constantly being released.
I am aware of the switch to China, as with Revell of Germany also. 1/32 BAe Hawk £20.
May be mistaken but was there not a thread discussing GW's production also having some Chinese output?
Even if not, the point is that the price of plastic is not going to be any cheaper in China, even if labour costs are.
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Post by: Ugavine
I really don't think Games Workshop prices are that expensive.
Moulds are very expensive.
Sculpting & design takes time which has to be paid for.
Oil prices are going up and up.
and a million other reasons previously mentioned.
It's a hobby aimed at the middle-classes with middle-class income. There are many more hobbies out there that are a lot more expensive than GW games, and plenty that cost a lot less. I choose my hobbies based on what I can afford; I used to go 4x4 off-roading but I can no longer afford the risk of repairs to my car or to buy a 2nd car. So I chose a different hobby, gaming
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Post by: Paul
Shepherd23 wrote:aerethan wrote:Wal Mart is a big name and they charge pennies on the dollar for stuff.
Oddly enough, GW lost with wal mart some years ago on a distribution deal. GW wanted an ENTIRE aisle to themselves at full retail pricing. I can't imagine why they wouldn't compromise to such global sales and marketing. They just refused to play ball.
If that is even half true then it really does mean that GW is run by the biggest morons to ever be in charge of anything.
And no, bulk plastic that is used to make models has not gone up in price significantly and no it isnt special. GW prices are just high because they think THEY are special. And since everyone keeps buying it they must be right.
I totaly respect GW if they refuesd to deal with Wal Mart.
I work in finance and super markets are a total nightmare. They treat their supplyers like crap, never pay them and are just a total pain.
It says to me not that GW are money grabing, but that they have ethics about who they will supply to. It says to me that they don't want the small hobby shops pushed out of the market.
As Ugavine says, its not that expensive a hobby anyway. A set of tyres for my motorbike cost about £300...
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Excuses are so readily made to justify the addiction Ugavine.
Like I said, some kit makers don't charge the earth.
They have far more complicated moulds to make for some kits, they have to do specific research and design and use plastic.
Oil prices have gone down as well as up
Bottom line is, for whatever perverted reason, people want to pay top dollar to make themselves feel good about toy soldiers.
Some object and get bounced on for daring to make moan
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Post by: mattyrm
GW is awesome, warhammer is awesome, and as a result I will happily keep buying their stuff.
And thats why there are expensive!
An Iphone is way more expensive than my crappy old Sony, know why? Its awesome!
Cool stuff costs the most, thats business for ya.
And GW stuff is sweeeeet.
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Post by: Lorek
Every time we get one of these threads calling GW the Evil Empire or some such thing, this is what I picture:
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Cool stuff costs the most?
I dreamt about Jimmy Hendrix last night for free.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Lorek wrote:Every time we get one of these threads calling GW the Evil Empire or some such thing, this is what I picture:

Oh Penny Arcade. What can't you solve with your wit!
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Cutting! so damning and accurate a caricature.
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Post by: obsidianaura
I'm reserving judgment till the new Tomb King Battalion is released.
From what I hear it's exaclty the same but with 8 more skellitons.
If the price remains the same I'll be impressed.
I'm guessing they'll bring the price up to £55 which is "fair" in line with their prices.
If it's raised even higher it's just simple money grabbing
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Post by: Backfire
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
The moulds were essentially Airfix's anyway but they are also selling new toolings, eg 1/48 Sea Vixen £30, Bf109E-3/4 £15
There are plenty of new toolings constantly being released.
I am aware of the switch to China, as with Revell of Germany also. 1/32 BAe Hawk £20.
May be mistaken but was there not a thread discussing GW's production also having some Chinese output?
Some of the GW accessories are nowadays made in China (paints, figure cases etc.). I've also heard that Forgeworld has moved production to China, but dunno if that's true. Main figure production is still done at GW's main plant. I'm sure we will hear about it if it moves.
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Post by: Stella Cadente
purplefood wrote:Plastic is getting more expensive...
The molds are also apparently expensive.
while small companies like victrix charge £20 for 60 multi part plastic models to the same and better quality than GW those 2 reasons will NEVER hold water
for the price of a BA battleforce giving you a handful of useless tripe for a woefully done gaming system I will be happy with 180 models
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Post by: Solorg
My idea (not original):
If I buy a box of Orks with 11 guys in there for $25, it will take me a night to assemble them and probably 5 more nights to paint them/finish them. So I got 6 nights of entertainment already. Now let's say I play 4 games which include them. That's ten nights of fun. For $25. In other words:
It cost me $2.50 per night of fun. If I wanted a night of fun at the movies, it would be $10. If I wanted to eat out, it would be $5 - $15 depending on how frugal I feel. Bowling would be $7 for one game. And so on.
Plus if you stay in the hobby, models are free to play with once you've finished them. They continue to provide nights of fun even if you decide you don't have time to paint or model anything else.
So try to think of it in terms of the hours of fun you get for your money. Can you get models from other ranges for less? Maybe. But the GW line offers amazing variety and excellent quality for games that everybody plays. I don't consider other games anymore because for my time and money, I'd rather paint something that I can play with rather than a game I have to beg people to get into (and that never really works all that well usually).
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Post by: redeyed
always love on the internet if someone has a genuine complaint about anything its auto-labelled as "whining"
and the same old tired lines of cheese/wine come out...its worse than the original complaints people.
its lame psuedo intellectual ego-babble, at least raise a counter argument! (the post above mine is a good example of a fair and non agressive counter argument!)
GW are very expensive for what you get. But like most Savvy players I buy from ebay, swap with friends, use alternate models etc.
If I MUST buy something new I buy from a discount place for 20%+ off.
I do agree the company has really gone downhill in its behavior though and some of the gaming has suffered due to it :( I miss the good old days lol.
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Post by: Spyder68
happydude wrote:Commisar Von Humps wrote:Quite simply, its Leze Faire(i think thats how its spelt... lol), they can charge whatever they want because we will pay almost anything for our plastic little men.
And truth be told, they make an obscene profit, i heard somewhere thats its like 77%(which im sure is an exageration  )
It is a 68% Markup in reality from what I have been told. I decided to push the company away for good they do not deserve the money any longer. PP here I come!
Good luck with that!
you can make an 1850 40k army for a tourney as cheap as you can make a 50pt PP army for a tourney.
If you compare PP model prices vs GW model prices they are both high.
$30 for a Warjack some up to $60
Infantry can run into around $33 per 6.. Thats $5.50 per model. ( PP)
a Tactical squad is ..........$3.75 a model ( GW)
I spent more money playing PP then i did 40k.. As when i get a unit painted, i want another unit to paint and work on.
Not to mention the new battle engines that are like $85 each..
Just saying... don't expect other well established games with a large player base to be cheaper..
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Post by: asmith
Solorg wrote:My idea (not original):
If I buy a box of Orks with 11 guys in there for $25, it will take me a night to assemble them and probably 5 more nights to paint them/finish them. So I got 6 nights of entertainment already. Now let's say I play 4 games which include them. That's ten nights of fun. For $25. In other words:
It cost me $2.50 per night of fun. If I wanted a night of fun at the movies, it would be $10. If I wanted to eat out, it would be $5 - $15 depending on how frugal I feel. Bowling would be $7 for one game. And so on.
Plus if you stay in the hobby, models are free to play with once you've finished them. They continue to provide nights of fun even if you decide you don't have time to paint or model anything else.
So try to think of it in terms of the hours of fun you get for your money. Can you get models from other ranges for less? Maybe. But the GW line offers amazing variety and excellent quality for games that everybody plays. I don't consider other games anymore because for my time and money, I'd rather paint something that I can play with rather than a game I have to beg people to get into (and that never really works all that well usually).
I buy a sketch pad with 100 sheets of paper in it. If I can entertain myself by making one drawing a night, is the sketch pad worth $250?
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Post by: AdeptusAssfartes
^ Some of them are
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Post by: Backfire
asmith wrote:
I buy a sketch pad with 100 sheets of paper in it. If I can entertain myself by making one drawing a night, is the sketch pad worth $250?
I hate drawing, so no...
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Post by: Solorg
asmith wrote:I buy a sketch pad with 100 sheets of paper in it. If I can entertain myself by making one drawing a night, is the sketch pad worth $250?
It's worth what people are willing to pay for it. : ) In fact, that's really the only way that worth is objectively determined.
But it does bring up a good point. When you buy GW miniatures, what are you paying for? Just the cost of the plastic? Are you not also paying for fine art? For many of us, are we not also paying a premium for imported goods? For the technology which has been designed to produce them, some of which has been pioneered by Citadel? For an established team which can afford to hire the best?
I'll admit, the prices are a bit high. It's still worth asking - high compared to what? Other lines often produce either a) inferior models or b) have less variety available. That said, it is always possible to purchase your minis for 40K from another line. You may get more value for your money - but it depends on how you define value. For me, the (very) high quality plus the ability to customize the look of anything from a lowly Ork to a powerful Battlewagon that GW produces makes it worth it to me to pay a little extra per model.
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Post by: asmith
Surely you mean subjectively determined? So your view is that worth is completely unrelated to the amount of work it takes to produce something? That's one way to look at it.
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Post by: Solorg
asmith wrote:Surely you mean subjectively determined? So your view is that worth is completely unrelated to the amount of work it takes to produce something? That's one way to look at it.
No, I mean objectively. There is only one universally agreed-upon way to determine the (monetary) worth of something. And that is: what people are willing to pay for it. If it is priced higher than that, it will not sell. If priced lower, well, the price will rise soon enough.
Someone might ---feel--- that something is worth more because they spent a lot of time on it (ie my badly painted Ork Mob) but just because I feel it has high worth, that is subjective... until I successfully sell it, that is, at which point its worth has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt (I have the money in my pocket to prove it).
EDIT: I can't say that the work required to make something is completely unrelated - it certainly is if you have to pay people by the hour in order to produce something. But at the end of the day if you pay your people and the item does not sell, you will still be forced to drop the price on the product... even if you end up losing money on the deal!
Solorg
A Ork
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Post by: agnosto
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I ain't so you are wrong
The big kits are still overpriced imho.
(compared to equivalent amount of plastics in all but a few of the scale models)
Oh look someone is going to say it's a niche luxury car in this sort of thread again in 5, 4, 3, 2,...
Yeah, I can get 6 Ogre Bulls for less than 5 Terminators.
And don't make me trot out the razorgore pic....heck, I'll be lazy because I'm sure someone else'll do it.
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Post by: asmith
Solorg wrote:asmith wrote:Surely you mean subjectively determined? So your view is that worth is completely unrelated to the amount of work it takes to produce something? That's one way to look at it.
No, I mean objectively. There is only one universally agreed-upon way to determine the (monetary) value of something. And that is: what people are willing to pay for it. If it is priced higher than that, it will not sell. If priced lower, well, the price will rise soon enough.
Someone might ---feel--- that something is worth more because they spent a lot of time on it (ie my badly painted Ork Mob) but just because I feel it has high value, that is subjective... until I successfully sell it, that is, at which point its value has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt (I have the money in my pocket to prove it).
EDIT: I can't say that the work required to make something is completely unrelated - it certainly is if you have to pay people by the hour in order to produce something. But at the end of the day if you pay your people and the item does not sell, you will still be forced to drop the price on the product... even if you end up losing money on the deal!
Solorg
A Ork
I disagree that it is universally agreed upon  . I think you'll find that most definitions of value will have the the word "fair" in them. Just because you can find one person to pay money for something does not mean that it is worth that much. If that were so you couldn't have painters bilking old ladies out of their savings, and it would be ok to charge $1000 a gallon for water in a disaster area. Generally you'll find that fair value is the cost to produce an item plus a reasonable markup to make the business go. For a high profile example of this in action look at the ongoing struggles with pharmaceutical companies and drug pricing.
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Post by: Solorg
Making old ladies pay inflated prices for their GW minis, I will agree, is just plain wrong.
EDIT: Your point is well-taken, though. Even so, the theory goes that if the price is not worth it, people won't pay. If they do pay, that must have been its worth, right? (Why would they pay if it wasn't worth it?) I see how it is possible to disagree with this (sometimes we don't have a choice but to pay - ie medical expenses, water, etc) but then again, it is probably not possible to determine the (monetary) worth on items/services we must absolutely have. And of course, models, much though we love them, probably don't fall into the category of things we absolutely must have.
EDIT 2: Except for that awesome Squiggoth from FW! That thing is MINT.
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Post by: Gorbad
I havent read the whole thread but I always cry bloody tears if people who seems to clearly have no clue about economic systems and such stuff goin crazy on some companies. Take any other miniature manufacteur and show me what they do for their customers. I gladly pay the extra bucks for my GW minis and will sink a lot more money into GW simply because I can play at their stores all day long, use there painting equipment and get bitz if I need some and all that for free. If GW would have such prizes without the above mentioned stuff I would agree that GW is a little pricey but as it stands now the company is just awesome. Not just in terms of customer service they act like a good example company in mostly all parts of economic rules.
Yeah, I am a GW fanboy for sure and no I dont work for them no I get paid for such comments. I just love the company and have had a lot of awesome moments including some GW Trolls, stores and such stuff.
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Post by: agnosto
Gorbad wrote:I havent read the whole thread but I always cry bloody tears if people who seems to clearly have no clue about economic systems and such stuff goin crazy on some companies. Take any other miniature manufacteur and show me what they do for their customers. I gladly pay the extra bucks for my GW minis and will sink a lot more money into GW simply because I can play at their stores all day long, use there painting equipment and get bitz if I need some and all that for free. If GW would have such prizes without the above mentioned stuff I would agree that GW is a little pricey but as it stands now the company is just awesome. Not just in terms of customer service they act like a good example company in mostly all parts of economic rules.
Yeah, I am a GW fanboy for sure and no I dont work for them no I get paid for such comments. I just love the company and have had a lot of awesome moments including some GW Trolls, stores and such stuff.
You realize that there are entire swathes of the world without a GW store within a day's driving distance, right?
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
GW have been expensive for a long time, but I'm seeing now that they are really expensive, it strains my credulity that they can still shift sufficient models at these prices. But obviously they do and make some sort of profit from it. I looked around their store recently, and the most common price on blisters with single figures in is £8.20. That seems to be the benchmark for most blisters now. I thought single figures at £5-6 was getting to be a lot but seeing this "£8.20" all over the place is just depressing. That's a lot for a single 28mm figure by any measure. People saying the other companies offer lower quality or less variety or whatever seems grossly unfair. It's not like GW offer quality beyond that of other manufacturers. There are loads of other companies out there offering large ranges of quality miniatures like Reaper, and rare is the single 28mm figure that costs £8.20 from them. Many of the GW characters are £12-14, I don't know when it became common that all these characters suddenly cleared the £10 mark by so far, I guess I don't go in GW often enough. That's hellish expensive IMO. There's hardly any blisters in GW anyway from my last few visits, really sad that so much has gone 'direct only', you can't even go in their own shops and buy stuff, you have to order it and return a week later. What sort of "Games" shop is that? It's not like their ranges are bigger now than they used to be, if anything they had wider product ranges years ago and the stores had it all. Now they just have a million boxes of Grey Knights or whatever is flavour of the month.
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Post by: The Dwarf Wolf
The right word here is competition. GW owns the rights of a nice scenarie, and have a big history with it.
Their models are the better, and almost unique, plastic sci-fi ones, and they just know that people will buy from them, because only them sell it.
Thats why i hope for another comapany to come and do sci-fi plastic miniatures, in a Space Opera style. Maybe Mantic, maybe Wargames Factory, maybe another one...
But even them, people will say "no" to them, because they will not be GW, or they will be Ugly, or cheap.
Resuming? GW have absurdly high prices just because we, their costumers, let them price their products high. But what we can do? We dont have alternatives... yet.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
Oil prices are climbing due to tensions in the Middle East which translates into more expensive plastic toy soldiers.
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Post by: infinite_array
Brother Ramses wrote:Oil prices are climbing due to tensions in the Middle East which translates into more expensive plastic toy soldiers.
If this is true (and I sincerely doubt it) I gladly await the day when those anonymous forces leave 'I-don't-know-its-name-ifshtan' and GW lowers their prices.
Since, you know, they love us so much because of who we are and not because we happen to have plenty of disposable income that we decide to spend on their plastic and resin crack.
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Post by: Pacific
agnosto wrote:Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I ain't so you are wrong
The big kits are still overpriced imho.
(compared to equivalent amount of plastics in all but a few of the scale models)
Oh look someone is going to say it's a niche luxury car in this sort of thread again in 5, 4, 3, 2,...
Yeah, I can get 6 Ogre Bulls for less than 5 Terminators.
And don't make me trot out the razorgore pic....heck, I'll be lazy because I'm sure someone else'll do it.
Wait?!?! What's that?! Did someone mention the sports car of wargaming again??!?!
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Post by: Aerethan
Brother Ramses wrote:Oil prices are climbing due to tensions in the Middle East which translates into more expensive plastic toy soldiers.
in so many ways, no, no it does not. Like I said, the price in plastic didn't jump 100% in 10 years for simple polystyrene.
You think popcorn prices at the movies when up because corn doubled in price?
This is a great example so I'll run with it.
In 2001 I worked at a theater. A LARGE popcorn ran $4.50 and a small was just $2. The cost on the large was $.10 for the corn and about $.03 for the bag it was in. Fast forward 10 years, a small popcorn is now $4.50, a large is $8 and corn prices
have actually gone down in the last 10 years due to the government subsidizing surplus harvesting of said crop.
So why on earth would theaters charge almost double the price for the same product 10 years later? Because people will still pay it. In the end people(at least in the US) are consumers at heart, and a few dollars isn't going to stand between them and what they want.
I 100% guarantee that price differences in polystyrene have no impact on GW's pricing structure. If it did, then Empire Greatswords would cost the same as State Troops, as by that logic they have the same amount of plastic and therefore the same cost. This is very much not the case. The plastic greatswords cost just as much per model as their metal predecessors did, regardless of being produced in a less expensive material.
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Post by: prototype_X
methinks the way to lower prices is a wordwide boycot.....................................................................
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Post by: Worglock
Paul wrote:
It says to me not that GW are money grabing, but that they have ethics about who they will supply to. It says to me that they don't want the small hobby shops pushed out of the market.
As Ugavine says, its not that expensive a hobby anyway. A set of tyres for my motorbike cost about £300...
I know. It's great that GW didn't spend upwards of ten years planting GW stores in the same neighborhood of successful local retailers.
Wait.
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Post by: Ouze
H.B.M.C. wrote:I do love how these threads turn into those that want to discuss GW's pricing structure, and those that think that clever images and cute phrases constitute constructive rebuttal...
There simply exists no new data that can be added to these threads. There are only oh so many ways in which to say, " GWS charges what the market will bear".
If you think they cost too much, you should vote with your wallet. If enough people do so, they will stop charging so much, or someone else step up tol fill the void.
That's all there is to it. The end.
[/thread], in my opinion.
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Post by: Ugavine
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Excuses are so readily made to justify the addiction Ugavine. 
I'm good at making excuses to justify my gaming
I spend just as much on RPGs as I do on 40K. And so far my 40K spending isn't close to what I spent on Star Wars miniatures. Now THAT is an expensive game. Since collecting 40K I have money to spare at the end of a month!
Like I said, some kit makers don't charge the earth.
They have far more complicated moulds to make for some kits, they have to do specific research and design and use plastic.
Then why don't people buy them instead?
Because Warhammer is better
Every industry is the same. The prices in some restaurants are high to make them exclusive, doesn't mean the food or service is going to be very good. So while 40K may not be better than the rest they have set out their place in the marketplace and that's where they're obviously staying.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Worglock wrote:Paul wrote:
It says to me not that GW are money grabing, but that they have ethics about who they will supply to. It says to me that they don't want the small hobby shops pushed out of the market.
As Ugavine says, its not that expensive a hobby anyway. A set of tyres for my motorbike cost about £300...
I know. It's great that GW didn't spend upwards of ten years planting GW stores in the same neighborhood of successful local retailers.
Wait.
That's the sort of behaviour that makes them 'evil' if anything does, not prices. A lot of independent retailers seem to get a hard time dealing with GW, they need to take their product because it's so ubiquitous and will attract customers, but GW are then frustrating and difficult to deal with.
I've long disliked GW's attitude that they ARE the hobby instead of being part of a much wider community. They are certainly a big fish but there is a much bigger world of miniature wargaming. They are quite zealous about it, people in stores have on occasion heard staff claim GW is unique in making figures, perhaps these staff are genuinely ignorant or drinking the kool-aid. The way they treat their staff seems a bit dubious too, there are numerous horror stories by ex-staff about the pressure and absurd demands made upon them.
Lastly I find their claim to be a 'Games' Workshop a bit sad seeing as they only produce three games and the last other release was virtually a reprint of the much older Space Hulk. They've dropped so many of they product lines over the years rendering them useless. Not just whole armies, but the way people find weapons listings change so have to alter figures to meet new rules. And how many editions of the game do they need to release? New editions are slightly different but don't seem to offer improvement. Meanwhile there are loads of games that they do nothing to support even though they are on their own site. Though the Specialist Games are a small section you can still buy some stuff. Many of these ranges are a shadow of their former self, GW axed many Inquisitor figures mere months after release. You certainly can't play any if these games in their stores, genuine GW minis or not. It's just the big three. They appeared to only release Space Hulk on the understanding it wouldn't get a shred of support after the release period when they are pushing for people to buy it, and that's not support it's part of a sales pitch.
And if we're talking about their attitude towards Specialist Games we have to recall their ridiculous C&D storm the other summer when they went after multiple fan sites. Now had they explained their reasons for this activity then people may have been more compliant, but serving grous of your fans with aggressive legal letters just angers and upsets your customers. So what if some people use their eagles or have a bit of their IP in a web address, the net is a big place, you can just ignore it like you have for years. You're not going to lose your IP.
Their posessive attitude towards their IP is also a problem for me, their use of it stifles creativity. They make huge claims about what is theirs and use their size to scare off competition even in spurious cases of claimed ownership. Maybe some people at GW do believe their own propaganda that they are they only mini maker out there but frankly I think the hobby is much healthier with GW forced to eat some humble pie over this Chapterhouse thing.
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Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
Even despite being "gainfully employed", I find myself spending less and less on GW products. I'm afraid that neither the cost of potential other hobbies nor the fact that I won't starve should I buy an army makes any difference - there is definitively a limit on what I consider fair to charge for a plastic doll or ten.
The reasoning that compared to a BMW, a box of Greatswords or Terminators is cheap is simply ridiculous. I'm continuously surprised to see consumers taking the side of a company only. So whatever they charge is okay? Everything cool costs money? Are you being paid by some business union to write that? That must be the most absurd attempt to legitimate prices. Would you be jumping with joy if you had to pay 2 € per litre of gas? It's cool to be able to drive after all, so it could cost whatever...
infinite_array wrote:
The thing is, we've heard these threads before. And before then. And before THEN. The very thing man did when he finally evolved enough to articulate sounds into meaningful language was complain about GW's prices.
I thought the very first thing he did was to make and then to defend those prices. Anyways, considering the price of stones, their prices *were* high back then! Not to mention that people developed a hernia from carrying a 1k army of stone models...
Solorg wrote:
It's worth what people are willing to pay for it. : ) In fact, that's really the only way that worth is objectively determined.
Yep. Everyone who thinks its not worth it is just an irrational GW hater with anger control issues and should be banned from all fora.
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Post by: Stealershock
ok, i have one point that doesn't seem to be mentioned yet, the cost of the stores. i mean, really, think about it. how much must GW spend on their stores, staff, and store events. that is one of the big reasons that their prices are so high. and i challenge you to find one store in the world that has a big 'Privateer Press', or 'Flames of War' over the entrance, these smaller companies can be cheaper because they are based primarily off of the internet, and independent stockists
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Post by: brettz123
Rogueyopants wrote:Why does Games Workshop i.e. "Evil Empire" charge so much money for their models (If you ask them, they will rant on about how it is some sort of special plastic WHICH i know is bloody horse crap, and they say they ship it from Europe and all this other bull i don't want to here (I never buy from games workshop cause of that reason which makes me buy from Maelstrom and other discount online stores)-a lot of their main player base is kids under 18, and their blowing their money away because simply they haven't herd of any other tabletop modeling game like DBMM or DBR, or Flames of war and etc. And they just plain rip them off (You know 1 Space marine will cost around $4.20 NZD which is flipping outrageous. If you go to Warlord games they charge a box of 24 hard-plastic models for only around $22 NZD (which is like a dollar per model) where as a box of 10 space marines or 10 orks cost $45 NZD
Its really a shame cause i like the Sie-fie idea and i love playing this game with these Skirmish based rules (I mean i have a alot of models but it has cost me over Thousands of dollars to get them (I have a job so its not to hard to come by but still...)
What do you guys think?
They charge so much because they need to cover non miniature costs with miniature sales. So all of those stores they have all over the UK cost them a lot of money to maintain so they need to raise the cost of their miniatures as compared to other companies to keep this type of business model going. You can see from their end of year business reports that they take in a lot of revenue but their profit margin is pretty small compared to the total revenue. Hopefully they change their business model soon because it doesn't look good for the long term.
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Post by: agnosto
If that's the only reason prices are high, then GW should close the stores. I would think that lower product prices will do just as much to increase sales as a red-shirt trying to hardsell a 12 year old on a box of marines...
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Post by: Asuron
agnosto wrote:If that's the only reason prices are high, then GW should close the stores. I would think that lower product prices will do just as much to increase sales as a red-shirt trying to hardsell a 12 year old on a box of marines...
You see there lies the issue
Its those stores that help them become successful, its what gave them the edge over competitors
Its now impossible to get rid of them because of how much theyre intergrated into how the company operates, regardless of whether or not its profitable
In fact does anyone know if even the more popular stores manage to break even on sales?
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Post by: agnosto
Asuron wrote:agnosto wrote:If that's the only reason prices are high, then GW should close the stores. I would think that lower product prices will do just as much to increase sales as a red-shirt trying to hardsell a 12 year old on a box of marines...
You see there lies the issue
Its those stores that help them become successful, its what gave them the edge over competitors
Its now impossible to get rid of them because of how much theyre intergrated into how the company operates, regardless of whether or not its profitable
In fact does anyone know if even the more popular stores manage to break even on sales?
GW games are now so ubiquitous in the tabletop community now that there's hardly a point for the corporate storefronts anymore, especially in areas that already have a FLGS presence. Why should the company do the hard work of attracting customers when the FLGSs will do that out of self-interest? I'm telling you that lower prices would really do more to benefit GWs bottom line than anything else.
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Post by: Steu
" Would you be jumping with joy if you had to pay 2 € per litre of gas?"
The way its going in the UK it wont be far off that we currently pay £1.30 a litre at the min. And some out of the way pump stations charge more.
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Post by: Paul
Worglock wrote:Paul wrote:
It says to me not that GW are money grabing, but that they have ethics about who they will supply to. It says to me that they don't want the small hobby shops pushed out of the market.
As Ugavine says, its not that expensive a hobby anyway. A set of tyres for my motorbike cost about £300...
I know. It's great that GW didn't spend upwards of ten years planting GW stores in the same neighborhood of successful local retailers.
Wait.
Last time I checked they have the same prices as the local retailers. Thats not bullying, thats fair competition. GW offer a better range of there own minis, the local stores can offer other things. You would be right if they came in, like supermarkets, and ran at a loss untill everyone else went bust.
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Post by: Cryonicleech
Paul wrote:Last time I checked they have the same prices as the local retailers. Thats not bullying, thats fair competition. GW offer a better range of there own minis, the local stores can offer other things. You would be right if they came in, like supermarkets, and ran at a loss untill everyone else went bust.
QFT
It's fair competition, besides, GW can't compete with stores that offer TCGs, RPGs, and other Wargames like WM/H and Malifaux...
GW charges their prices because they can, and sure it's expensive, but it's nothing compared to what we already pay... Not to say that it's "right" in any sense of the word, but they can.
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Post by: biccat
Paul wrote:Last time I checked they have the same prices as the local retailers. Thats not bullying, thats fair competition. GW offer a better range of there own minis, the local stores can offer other things. You would be right if they came in, like supermarkets, and ran at a loss untill everyone else went bust.
I disagree, GW stores have a much higher profit margin and therefore are able to maintain a storefront with fewer sales. A higher profit margin also means they can afford to run more events, drawing customers to their store. And, theoretically, they could afford to hire better people. But from what I read here, FLGS owners are a LOT better to work for than GW.
GW shouldn't be directly competing with a FLGS.
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Post by: Skinnereal
Unless GW stores either drop their prices (which won't happen) or sell something other than their current stock, they're not going to make any money.
And, with GW phasing out their metal blisters for direct only, it'll get worse.
Surely a shiny and expensive metal model will mean more people will drop back to the less costly plastic kits, promising themselves they'll pick it up next time.
GW storefronts need to do more to bring people in.
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Post by: Ugavine
Skinnereal wrote:Unless GW stores either drop their prices (which won't happen) or sell something other than their current stock, they're not going to make any money.
I think you'll find that Games Workshop are making a very tidy profit at the moment.
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Post by: Necanor
Come on, there is no company in the world that keeps prices low, so that customers are happy. I mean look at any fast food chain, for example, the prices are getting higher and higher and the food is getting worse too.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Ugavine wrote:Skinnereal wrote:Unless GW stores either drop their prices (which won't happen) or sell something other than their current stock, they're not going to make any money.
I think you'll find that Games Workshop are making a very tidy profit at the moment.
And almost all of it gets poured right into their shops, employee pay, and manufacturing.
Where's that tidy profit again?
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Paul wrote:Last time I checked they have the same prices as the local retailers. Thats not bullying, thats fair competition. GW offer a better range of there own minis, the local stores can offer other things. You would be right if they came in, like supermarkets, and ran at a loss untill everyone else went bust. The suspicion was when they made their expansion with stores sprouting up everywhere during the '90s they would use independent stores to effectively trial their products and build up customer bases in areas, and those that were doing well selling GW products would suddenly find a GW open up very close by in direct competition or even stop supplying the independent with GW stock. Don't forget that GW stores are selling their own product so the overheads on stock are lower whereas independents have to buy GW wholesale which isn't cheap and they can't afford to bail out their store if it's taking losses unlike the corporate might of GW. Independents have to shift a fair bit of GW to get their money back. GW might sell at the same price as an independent, but per unit GW have a much greater mark up because they make their own product, while independents have to pay whatever GW want to sell it to them for. The reality is that GW is popular and a lot of independents have to partly rely upon GW stock as their bread and butter which is fine until they struggle to sell the required volume of GW stock because a dedicated GW shop has suddenly appeared near by. Which is allegedly why several GW stores opened where they did. There's fair competition, and aggressive competition, and the competition that drives independent retailers under is not for the good for the hobby community. So many towns now only have a GW as their gaming shop, and seeing as GW only sell their own stuff they effectively have a monopoly on wargaming supplies in that area unless people shop online.
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Post by: evilsponge
The prices for food are rising globally and were a major factor in the recent toppling of developing countries in africa and the middle east.
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Post by: NiallCampbell
If I'm absolutely desperate for something on the day (i.e. I need Chaos Black that badly) I'll nip into my local GW and pick up a pot but model wise, eBay is my friend...I've had some amazing deals from there. I'd say my army cost at least half of what it's RRP should have been.
Havnig said that, I really really wish I'd bought some GW shares about 10 years ago ^^.
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Post by: Torpedo Vegas
If you think its to expensive don't buy from them. It's expensive because it is a luxury product. No one is forcing you to buy from GW and bitching about it on Dakka won't make them lower their prices.
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Post by: Cottonjaw
If you don't codex hop, wargaming is an exceedingly efficient time waster. My Tau army has been more or less built since 3e. Since then I've spent... oh.. maybe 100-200$ a year on a model or two to build and paint for the heck of it, or a few tweaks here and there to my army list.
If you play 3 new Xbox games a year.. you're already in over your wargaming hobby. (and who plays only 3?)
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Post by: Loki_TBC
Skinnereal wrote:
And, with GW phasing out their metal blisters for direct only, it'll get worse.
Surely a shiny and expensive metal model will mean more people will drop back to the less costly plastic kits, promising themselves they'll pick it up next time.
GW storefronts need to do more to bring people in.
GW is phasing out the metal so they can likely sell it all for scrap and raise additional capital to support their new resin line which is less costly than the metal.
In any case, GW takes every opportunity it can to screw the independent LGS. Look at their ridiculous store "levels" system and the way they expect stores to carry tons of product that will never move.
How about their offering free shipping to every schmuck that surfs onto their site, thus screwing the LGS out of direct / bits orders.
These guys are clown shoes and an example of why a game company should never go public.
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Post by: notprop
GW profits are up at the moment (@ 11.8% net), but this is certainly down to the in year cost reductions (store closures, reductions in staff etc) and lisencing agreements. They were significantly less than that in previous years. Re competion in the last 20+ years that I have been into wargaming I have not seen GW move in on independent stores. Indeed where I live there is an abundance of GW store within 30mins of my house and the only independent games shop some 40 minutes away is still pootling alang the same as it was 20 years ago. Actually there is also Wayland Games, which is near the indie that has done more damage to it! Anyhoo GW has always been middle of the High [main] Street, I have never seen a LGS there, maybe a couple of streets away, in the corner but not really prime retail. Evil GW is just a fabrication made up by those that don't get their toys just the way they want them and for what they paid 10 years ago. A meme if you will. True there are discrepancies in pricing and decisions I don't agree with but I don't let that ruin my fun. There are alternatives, GW are not a monopoly so certainly not worth all the griping.
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Post by: asmith
Necanor wrote:Come on, there is no company in the world that keeps prices low, so that customers are happy. I mean look at any fast food chain, for example, the prices are getting higher and higher and the food is getting worse too.
Companies keep decent prices and provide good value while they are growing. Look at Netflix, by providing good value for money they basically eliminated all their competition (anybody remember video stores?) Once they get so big they decide the only way to keep growing is to try to milk their customers for more money. At this point competition usually steps in. GW though IMO still has plenty of untapped market they are not getting to. Unfortunately they started the milking their customers for more money phase too early, and have locked themselves out of most of it.
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Post by: notprop
Loki_TBC wrote:In any case, GW takes every opportunity it can to screw the independent LGS. Look at their ridiculous store "levels" system and the way they expect stores to carry tons of product that will never move.
Having a basic buy in agreement seems pretty standard to me.
How about their offering free shipping to every schmuck that surfs onto their site, thus screwing the LGS out of direct / bits orders.
These guys are clown shoes and an example of why a game company should never go public.
Yes the offer of something that is pretty much commen practice throught the internet does seem awefully foolish to me. So I can buy at 100% + free p&P from GW or RRP-20% plus some p&P from FLG. Bandits!
The only complaint you can have about this is that they didn't do it years ago!
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Post by: brettz123
Asuron wrote:agnosto wrote:If that's the only reason prices are high, then GW should close the stores. I would think that lower product prices will do just as much to increase sales as a red-shirt trying to hardsell a 12 year old on a box of marines...
You see there lies the issue
Its those stores that help them become successful, its what gave them the edge over competitors
Its now impossible to get rid of them because of how much theyre intergrated into how the company operates, regardless of whether or not its profitable
In fact does anyone know if even the more popular stores manage to break even on sales?
It is an interesting question. I don't know what would happen if they closed the stores. It might be a bad idea and it might be a good idea. In the UK it seems the problem would be that there really isn't an infrastructure of private stores to pick up the slack. I think in some ways GW has created this huge problem for themselves and they really dont know how to fix it other than to raise prices.
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Post by: Snarky
Price increases are a fact of life, like taxes!
Think about it this way, some video games were ~£29.99 on release about five years ago. Now it is common to see video games sell for £45+ on release.
So if you think about it, pretty much everything has become more expensive (including food for you non food shoppers!) so really, it's not only GW but pretty much how the economy is rolling these days.
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Post by: asmith
My dad used to get me Atari games in the late 70's for about $40. Now they are still about $40. Unless you preorder the superdeluxe ultimate addition.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Snarky wrote:Price increases are a fact of life, like taxes!
Think about it this way, some video games were ~£29.99 on release about five years ago. Now it is common to see video games sell for £45+ on release.
I remember getting games like Doom and Space Hulk for £30-40 in the mid-90s. That's pretty much what games are today. In fact you look at the relative costs of things like computers and games and they are probably getting cheaper, my parent's first computers cost an insane amount of money by today's standards, we worked it out be be several thousands, yet you can get a good laptop for £500 today.
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Post by: agnosto
Snarky wrote:Price increases are a fact of life, like taxes!
Think about it this way, some video games were ~£29.99 on release about five years ago. Now it is common to see video games sell for £45+ on release.
So if you think about it, pretty much everything has become more expensive (including food for you non food shoppers!) so really, it's not only GW but pretty much how the economy is rolling these days.
I think the bone of contention is that GW doesn't pass its cost savings onto the consumers, quite the opposite, it raises prices at higher than material cost increase plus inflation.
Video game aren't necessarily a good comparison because the hardware has basically quintupled in power over those five years. Arguably, GW's miniature quality has increased over time as well but it's extremely hard to measure this because one man's razorgore is another man's, whatever. Miniature quality is by and large subjective whereas video game graphic quality and game machine power are measurable.
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Post by: Backfire
agnosto wrote:
GW games are now so ubiquitous in the tabletop community now that there's hardly a point for the corporate storefronts anymore, especially in areas that already have a FLGS presence. Why should the company do the hard work of attracting customers when the FLGSs will do that out of self-interest? I'm telling you that lower prices would really do more to benefit GWs bottom line than anything else.
Thing is, any hobby needs a steady flow of new customers to survive. Yes, lowering mini prices by closing stores would help the sales for a while, but it would make the marketing of the game to new potential customers much harder. You would have to start actually advertise, and that costs money, which is included to miniature prices...
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Post by: asmith
Maybe things are a lot different in Europe. I have traveled a lot and have never seen a GW store my entire life. 99% of people here have never even heard of GW. There is not a GW store within 4 hours drive of me. I think if they closed all the stores and spent even 10% of that money on advertising they would grow by leaps and bounds here.
Edit: they would have to lower the price to match the reduced spending though.
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Post by: agnosto
Backfire wrote:Thing is, any hobby needs a steady flow of new customers to survive. Yes, lowering mini prices by closing stores would help the sales for a while, but it would make the marketing of the game to new potential customers much harder. You would have to start actually advertise, and that costs money, which is included to miniature prices...
As asmith mentioned below; I think there's a bit of a difference between Europe and the US in this respect (sorry, don't know a thing about you Aus. folks). I live in Oklahoma and the nearest GW to me is in Dallas Texas, that's about a 3 hour drive from my home. There are; however, a number of FLGSs that carry GW products, provide gaming space and hold local events. I believe that, at least here in the U.S, noone would miss GW corporate stores if they all closed shop overnight.
There is no way that GW could saturate the market here with stores without breaking the proverbial bank first; however, tabletop gamers are well familiar with the game and going by the distribution of corporate finance results, the hobby doesn't seem to be struggling here because of the dearth in corporate owned shops.
My point is that FLGSs are well able to take up the slack (at least in the U.S.) if GW decided to close the doors on all the shops here. The savings could be used to advertise and diversify recruitment methods.
It's fun being an armchair CEO.  This is all my opinion based upon my limited knowledge and experience; I'll readily assume there's a reason the GW goes about their business they way they do.
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Post by: notprop
The US has had a network of LGS since what, the 70's? Lets not forget that GW started off as importer and distributor of D&D and other US games. There was comparatively little in the way of specialist games stores [sic] in the UK before GW started up. So while the US Dakkanauts for the most part do not see the need for the retail network they are necessary for the larger whole of GW (i.e. not the US). GW simply can not withdraw retail shop presence on a large scale to reduce costs without detrementally effecting their sales and market placement. New games stores will not spring up in their place and new blood will not be brought in to either the GW HHHobby or the greater wargaming hobby. GW are currently planning their next move on the US though so agnosto my get the GW shop he doen't crave.
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Post by: Grot 6
I never would have guessed!
"So while the US Dakkanauts for the most part do not see the need for the retail network they are necessary for the larger whole of GW (i.e. not the US). GW simply can not withdraw retail shop presence on a large scale to reduce costs without detrementally effecting their sales and market placement. New games stores will not spring up in their place and new blood will not be brought in to either the GW HHHobby or the greater wargaming hobby."- Notprop
How did you come to this conclusion?
Those shops are the sucking chest wounds of the company, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is also the very reason that they close down said shops in areas that's lose profit to tax marginal increases past the acceptable rate. Acceptable in the terms of a business model that these stores are templated off of.
( and yes, they are standard templated from a set one size fits all model)
Here in the states, a common practice is to open a GW store in a nearby or in direct competition to the local gaming store that has shown to turn a profit in selling said GW products. I've seen this happen in the Upper New York Area, the Virginia Area, and the North Carolina area, as well as have heard of the SAME issue happening in other parts of the states. If psed this same question, of course you get a "Oh, no, WE don't do things like that...." sort of a speal, but after the fact, and when the dust settles, either one or both of the shops, BOTH The GW shop and the LGS wind up memories.
I'll even pose the question to you all out there in Dakka Land- Do you find this issue similer or not in your areas in regards to the GW stores in question?
They are run in such a way as to slash and burn the market, not to increase interest, or promote anything other then Profits at the cost of the local areas gaming population.
They don't have a need, because they do not understand that the business model is incorrect for the way in which to sell thier product here in the states. It revolved to me in point, the fact that In Europe, theres a CLUB on every corner, and here in the states, We revolve our gaming around our buddies, or the local gaming shop.
The point of reference here is that our LGS's are a center around which most gaming takes place. GW's seen fit to run thier "Shops" like a stationary store.
-Get them in, sell them, get them out, and don't worry too much about the local gaming community outside the confines of the shop in question. You see it in thier revised shop plans, and in thier general attitude in regards to the way in which they treat thier "customers". They treat them, more often then not like shills, and try to push the hard sell, never thinking the long term age old addage, "develop a market."
GW shops generally just come into an area that already has an already established market, then they commence to turn it upside down and within a year or so, the shop is in shambles, and either "Relocating" or the LGS is out of business, or onto something else other then GW stuff.
I find it kind of either a misrepresentation and mistaken idea of the current market, or an outright Blatent underhanded cash grab, done with the intent of destroying the LGS's cut of GW product sales.
I post three different shops in three different areas, plus what others have discussed in the past- Begin with a large selection of GW in the LGS, then the GW shop comes to town, then the LGS either reduces thier invantory, or increases thier own profit margin, I?E the price of the GW stuff to compete with the newfound "pal" of the incoming GW store.
With the new and improved model of one and two man shops, I can see this as an interesting "Variation on a theme" where you can easily see two or three shops being startups, and at least one of them surviving for the same cost that one shop with a staff of five or six, that would have done the same amount of damage, bit in relation to todays economy.
Just my opinion.
( Insert clever picture here)
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Post by: agnosto
notprop wrote:The US has had a network of LGS since what, the 70's?
Lets not forget that GW started off as importer and distributor of D&D and other US games. There was comparatively little in the way of specialist games stores [sic] in the UK before GW started up.
So while the US Dakkanauts for the most part do not see the need for the retail network they are necessary for the larger whole of GW (i.e. not the US). GW simply can not withdraw retail shop presence on a large scale to reduce costs without detrementally effecting their sales and market placement. New games stores will not spring up in their place and new blood will not be brought in to either the GW HHHobby or the greater wargaming hobby.
GW are currently planning their next move on the US though so agnosto my get the GW shop he doen't crave. 
Useful bit of information; I never knew how GW had its humble beginnings.
Still, if they even closed shop in the U.S. they'd save a good amount of $ and lose a little amount of volume, if any.
As for their next move; I'd be extremely surprised if they come to Oklahoma.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Grot 6 wrote:Here in the states, a common practice is to open a GW store in a nearby or in direct competition to the local gaming store that has shown to turn a profit in selling said GW products. I've seen this happen in the Upper New York Area, the Virginia Area, and the North Carolina area, as
I'm going to say this right now:
This has not happened in North Carolina. We've only ever had a single GW shop(down near Charlotte) that I've been aware of since I started in 1997, and it closed almost 4 or 5 years back.
If they'd wanted to do this, they could have opened a shop up when Raleigh had just one conveniently placed shop with regular gaming, a place called Hobby Masters.
They didn't.
In fact, when Hobby Masters closed down because the property managers didn't let them renew their lease-- GW could have moved in and gotten a premium spot not far away from them for far cheaper and take over the customer base.
They didn't.
It took almost 3-4 years for a new shop to open up to replace Hobby Masters, and even then it's a 30-40 minute drive from Raleigh.
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Post by: Aerethan
GW opened a shop down here in California just a few miles(like 5 I think) from a store that has been in the area for 20 years. So yes, it does happen.
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Post by: Grot 6
Kanluwen wrote:Grot 6 wrote:Here in the states, a common practice is to open a GW store in a nearby or in direct competition to the local gaming store that has shown to turn a profit in selling said GW products. I've seen this happen in the Upper New York Area, the Virginia Area, and the North Carolina area, as
I'm going to say this right now:
This has not happened in North Carolina. We've only ever had a single GW shop(down near Charlotte) that I've been aware of since I started in 1997, and it closed almost 4 or 5 years back.
If they'd wanted to do this, they could have opened a shop up when Raleigh had just one conveniently placed shop with regular gaming, a place called Hobby Masters.
They didn't.
In fact, when Hobby Masters closed down because the property managers didn't let them renew their lease-- GW could have moved in and gotten a premium spot not far away from them for far cheaper and take over the customer base.
They didn't.
It took almost 3-4 years for a new shop to open up to replace Hobby Masters, and even then it's a 30-40 minute drive from Raleigh.
It did happen.
Concord Mills is way the !@#$ out there, though. Any wonder why they closed down? And by and by remember the stores that were out there? How are they doing today, by the way?
After they went belly up, there was an upsurge of stores to fill the void, but bet you a farm that the minute they come back with the one and two man operations the same things going to happen again.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Grot 6 wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Grot 6 wrote:Here in the states, a common practice is to open a GW store in a nearby or in direct competition to the local gaming store that has shown to turn a profit in selling said GW products. I've seen this happen in the Upper New York Area, the Virginia Area, and the North Carolina area, as
I'm going to say this right now:
This has not happened in North Carolina. We've only ever had a single GW shop(down near Charlotte) that I've been aware of since I started in 1997, and it closed almost 4 or 5 years back.
If they'd wanted to do this, they could have opened a shop up when Raleigh had just one conveniently placed shop with regular gaming, a place called Hobby Masters.
They didn't.
In fact, when Hobby Masters closed down because the property managers didn't let them renew their lease-- GW could have moved in and gotten a premium spot not far away from them for far cheaper and take over the customer base.
They didn't.
It took almost 3-4 years for a new shop to open up to replace Hobby Masters, and even then it's a 30-40 minute drive from Raleigh.
It did happen.
Concord Mills is way the !@#$ out there, though. Any wonder why they closed down? And by and by remember the stores that were out there? How are they doing today, by the way?
I don't actually remember what stores "that were out there".
Like you said: the location sucked. I never once even visited the place in Concord Mills.
After they went belly up, there was an upsurge of stores to fill the void, but bet you a farm that the minute they come back with the one and two man operations the same things going to happen again.
There was two shops that 'filled the void', I guess.
There's a Hobbytown USA in that area and a place called 'Games HQ'.
I'm pretty sure Hobbytown was there before the CM place shut down though.
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Post by: Grot 6
If a couple of these one or two man operations opens up down the street from you, or in your local strip mall, what will that impact be again?
THIS is the point, here.
I'm saying that from where I'm seeing it, GW knows exactly what they are doing, and are part in parcel to blaim for the increase by either being intentionally ignorant, negligent, or stupid.
I'm saying that this "Template store" is a sucking chest wound for the company, increasing needlessly on the bottom line. They put the stores up in an already established area, and that they reduce the overall quality of the gaming after they've been in place and !@#$ed the market as much as they possibly can.
My example of Concord mills might not be the be a real good one, but there was if i recall a couple of stores out there at that time, the model is to put a store up in concord mills, they didn't see the oncoming !@#$storm in the increase of cost to run out of a crappy location, and closed down later in the ongoing GW store purge when they closed those stores in ALL of those crappy locations.
Come to think of it, I can see why you said what you did, and I can see why you rebutted that point.
My questions already out there though- What direct impact to your local gaming community have thier stores been? Positive or negative?
What impact will they have if they open up down the street from you, and instead of one store with a staff of five, a few smaller stores, with staffs of ones and twos, such as thier new models?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Grot 6 wrote:If a couple of these one or two man operations opens up down the street from you, or in your local strip mall, what will that impact be again?
The impact is that I no longer have to drive 30-40 minutes to a shop that is, at best for what I'm looking for, a very 'meh' place.
They're heavy into the Flames of War scene, they stock more R/C stuff than 40k/ FB/ LOTR and have at best a pair of tables that when put together are the size of the table I'm building at my home.
It's nice to go in and chat with the guys or show up for arranged games, but it's just not somewhere I can justify making casual visits to.
I can't even really justify going out there to theoretically get paints(they don't stock Vallejo Model Air, which is what I've been working with a lot more lately since I've been trying to master my airbrush), it costs me more in gas just to get out to the shop than it does for me to order the paints I want through The Warstore.
THIS is the point, here.
I'm saying that from where I'm seeing it, GW knows exactly what they are doing, and are part in parcel to blaim for the increase by either being intentionally ignorant, negligent, or stupid.
GW 'knows exactly what they are doing'--you're right.
Do you remember the original intent of these little two man shops?
They're meant to be 'jump-off points'. They have very limited gaming space, mostly dedicated to demoing and they're also there to show some hobby tips/painting techniques.
From there--they shuffle you to the FLGS.
With that idea--you can't very well have the two-man shops in locations nowhere near FLGSes. The purpose is just pfew, out of there.
I'm saying that this "Template store" is a sucking chest wound for the company, increasing needlessly on the bottom line. They put the stores up in an already established area, and that they reduce the overall quality of the gaming after they've been in place and !@#$ed the market as much as they possibly can.
I don't know that they "reduce the overall quality of the gaming". I can understand the idea though.
My example of Concord mills might not be the be a real good one, but there was if i recall a couple of stores out there at that time, the model is to put a store up in concord mills, they didn't see the oncoming !@#$storm in the increase of cost to run out of a crappy location, and closed down later in the ongoing GW store purge when they closed those stores in ALL of those crappy locations.
Come to think of it, I can see why you said what you did, and I can see why you rebutted that point.
Yeah, I was just trying to make the point that Concord Mills was a really weird thing. From friends I knew in high school who moved down towards there, it was a pretty active place but they just weren't able to justify the cost when the price of the rent went up.
Not entirely sure about that, but it's what I've heard.
My questions already out there though- What direct impact to your local gaming community have thier stores been? Positive or negative?
None. We've never had a GW shop competing with my "local gaming community".
Even when Concord Mills was open, there was just no reason whatsoever to make the trip there if you didn't live around it.
Hobby Masters(and a store that was out in Wake Forest called 'Apocalypse Games' which shut down for reasons I don't know about) had the full cooperation of GW, even at the time when people were insisting that GW was "trying to squash the FLGSes by screwing them over".
What impact will they have if they open up down the street from you, and instead of one store with a staff of five, a few smaller stores, with staffs of ones and twos, such as thier new models?
The store I link to in my sig has a staff of two.
They do just fine. I'd go there more often if they stocked Vallejo Model Air paints or had more campaign based play rather than tournament oriented play.
If GW opened up a shop "down the street from me", I'd probably not notice the difference. Neither place would be supplying what I'm looking for.
The only difference is that GW would be within a much more reasonable distance for me to go down and look for a casual game.
I can't really justify it in most cases to go out to Hangar 18.
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Post by: LavuranGuard
Grot 6 wrote:I never would have guessed!
"So while the US Dakkanauts for the most part do not see the need for the retail network they are necessary for the larger whole of GW (i.e. not the US). GW simply can not withdraw retail shop presence on a large scale to reduce costs without detrementally effecting their sales and market placement. New games stores will not spring up in their place and new blood will not be brought in to either the GW HHHobby or the greater wargaming hobby."- Notprop
How did you come to this conclusion?
Those shops are the sucking chest wounds of the company, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is also the very reason that they close down said shops in areas that's lose profit to tax marginal increases past the acceptable rate. Acceptable in the terms of a business model that these stores are templated off of.
( and yes, they are standard templated from a set one size fits all model)
Here in the states, a common practice is to open a GW store in a nearby or in direct competition to the local gaming store that has shown to turn a profit in selling said GW products. I've seen this happen in the Upper New York Area, the Virginia Area, and the North Carolina area, as well as have heard of the SAME issue happening in other parts of the states. If psed this same question, of course you get a "Oh, no, WE don't do things like that...." sort of a speal, but after the fact, and when the dust settles, either one or both of the shops, BOTH The GW shop and the LGS wind up memories.
This is just how the UK was 20 years ago but GW drove out the FLGS so now there are very few. The only ones I've seen survive are the Forbidden Planet ones, but the reason they've held on is because they themselves became a franchise.
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Post by: Asuron
I honestly think the most damaging thing they've done is to make their stores one man only
It put insane amounts of pressure on that person to get everything done, but as I understand it the pay isn't that good either, so whats the incentive for taking the job?
Even if you loved the hobby that much, would it be worth it? You'd be stressing yourself out to get anything done.
It also effects customers by the stores having lower quality of service, because seriously, how is that one person going to help people paint, run games, help customers etc
Im just lucky the one I visit in Macarthur Sqaure has three employees most of the time
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Post by: AdeptusAssfartes
Are there any other GW stores in Toronto since the one in the Eatons closed? The only other is out in Mississauga, right? I only ever go to FLGs. For the reason of convenience and service. I can order whatever I want through them at a discount or pick up whatever in store and play a game for free without any stupid hassle or worse having to do it in a noisy, ugly mall. Plus I really believe that its a good idea to support local gaming, a good FLG makes you feel more like a hobbyist than a consumer. The more I think about it, I think GW removing stores from all but the most grandiose of locales (Warhammer World: why not one in North America? :( ) might be a good idea. It has worked in TO, these local clubs/stores have flourished -though admittedly I can think of one that just went out of business- but still, I cant possibly think of anything wrong about letting a natural gaming community grow with the help of GW as an second party distributor. Hell it would even buy into their exclusive "we are porsches" ideology.
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Post by: Skinnereal
Lowering prices would be enough advertising in itself.
As soon as GW mention a price drop, word-of-mouth would rocket, and they'd sell more even before the drop.
Gamers know GW for hikes, and a confirmed drop policy would be huge, even if the drop isn't.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Skinnereal wrote:Lowering prices would be enough advertising in itself. As soon as GW mention a price drop, word-of-mouth would rocket, and they'd sell more even before the drop. Gamers know GW for hikes, and a confirmed drop policy would be huge, even if the drop isn't. They might be worried it would give out the wrong impression to investors and appear to admit they are in trouble. They'd prefer to stick to the current strategy with gusto. The changes the company probably needs to ensure future success require a massive overhauls of things like their their retail approach, advertising, web presence and closure of stores. That's in part a massive gamble but also requires huge competence and confidence with strong leadership. I don't get the impression that the current team running GW are all that smart, their approach seems very simple and crude which is to continually raise prices, cuts some costs and put colossal pressures on staff. Their seeming resistance to adapting and using the growth of the internet seems almost archaic, their advertising approach in general seems inward looking, they don't foster the gamer community and alienate customers. They seem more obsessed with protecting their IP in the short term than addressing real future problems, maybe it's all a distraction to keep investors and the like happy because the senior management are good at making a big deal out of 'protecting IP' but don't really have the acumen to ensure the company is safe for the long future. I think the changes GW need to make, whatever they are exactly, need to be bold and decisive but also shrewd. The current CEO and team don't have it in them IMO, they are just propping up the same poor strategy that has been applied for years and years, when they run out of cost cutting measures to hide behind what then? I think before anything else the current senior management have to go and they need to bring in new people with new ideas and some sort of vision beyond "raise prices, cut some costs"
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Post by: obsidianaura
obsidianaura wrote:I'm reserving judgment till the new Tomb King Battalion is released. From what I hear it's exaclty the same but with 8 more skellitons. If the price remains the same I'll be impressed. I'm guessing they'll bring the price up to £55 which is "fair" in line with their prices. If it's raised even higher it's just simple money grabbing OK prices are out now. They increased the price of the Tomb kings Battalion by £17.50 and added 8 skeletons. A box of 16 skeletons costs £18.50!!! Those 8 skeletons £ per model are more expensive than a space marine I knew they'd put the price up but this is a ridiculous price increase. I strongly advise everyone buys up the old tomb king box set while theres some left.
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Post by: redeyed
that price increase is INSANE!
When I saw your post I thought you were joking but I went on their site and checked it!
all I can say is W.T.F.. I am actually stunned.
I was considering starting a Tomb King force with a Batallion/codex but now I think I will be scrapping that idea.
I wouldnt be suprised if its the first wave upping the prices of battleforces/battalions (blood angels before it)
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Post by: obsidianaura
I know right?! It seems unbelivable even for GW...
I just ordered the old tomb king force from blueboargaming for £42. I suggest you quickly do the same if you still want to start an army
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Post by: redeyed
my local hobby shop has one still in stock, but I dont actually have the spare cash for it currently as I just paid off a bunch of bills
was hoping to begin my tomb king force next month with the new codex (and my birthday lol)
but tbh I doubt I will bother now, unless I can find the cash to buy the cheaper battalion now!
£70.... what a joke...
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Post by: obsidianaura
That's why god invented credit cards
Otherwise ebay.
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Post by: agnosto
Or just buy from another maker....mantic?
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Post by: obsidianaura
Yeah trouble is its not really appropriate for tomb kings, they're fine for Vampire Counts
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Post by: Backfire
obsidianaura wrote:
OK prices are out now. They increased the price of the Tomb kings Battalion by £17.50 and added 8 skeletons. A box of 16 skeletons costs £18.50!!! Those 8 skeletons £ per model are more expensive than a space marine
I knew they'd put the price up but this is a ridiculous price increase.
I strongly advise everyone buys up the old tomb king box set while theres some left.
They have been doing this for some time now: Big boxes have gradually became worse deals. Someone made a cost comparison of all WH40k Battleforces, and newest ones gave least bang for a pound.
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Post by: redeyed
I was considering mantic.
What I will probably do is just buy the Vampires counts book, dig up what I have from the loft for them (some old bits/pieces) and buy mantic models for the rest.
Tomb kings and burn in the desert for the new prices GW are expecting me to pay!
Ive noticed that to Backfire, the blood angels battleforce being the best example for that.
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Post by: Vermillion
Just sent em a semi serious, semi satirical emailo asking them to justify basicly another £20 for 8 skeles and if thats the price of the future, £17.50 for 8
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Post by: Ugavine
Asuron wrote:I honestly think the most damaging thing they've done is to make their stores one man only
It put insane amounts of pressure on that person to get everything done, but as I understand it the pay isn't that good either, so whats the incentive for taking the job?
None of the stores near me are like this, they all have 2-3 staff in when I go by. But these are in busy areas.
But the wage thing is tough one. I looked into GW jobs recently, saw the pay and walked away. A store Manager is on less than me, for that responsibility I'd want a raise not a pay cut. But at the same time they are far from the only company that employs at minimum wage, and right now my girlfriend would take minimum wage if it meant getting a job. :(
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Post by: Paul
Ugavine wrote:Asuron wrote:I honestly think the most damaging thing they've done is to make their stores one man only
It put insane amounts of pressure on that person to get everything done, but as I understand it the pay isn't that good either, so whats the incentive for taking the job?
None of the stores near me are like this, they all have 2-3 staff in when I go by. But these are in busy areas.
But the wage thing is tough one. I looked into GW jobs recently, saw the pay and walked away. A store Manager is on less than me, for that responsibility I'd want a raise not a pay cut. But at the same time they are far from the only company that employs at minimum wage, and right now my girlfriend would take minimum wage if it meant getting a job. :(
Looking at the website it looks like they pay the same sort of wage I used to get when I worked in retail. Supermarket, highstreet clothes store or GW. I know where I would rather work for the same wage, but I do think people in retail are under paid and over worked in genral. If it was up to me shops would be banned from opening Sundays for a start and the working time directive would be fully implimented.
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Post by: Pacific
A very interesting post on the blog 'The back 40k', that pertains directly to some of the discussion going on here. I think that everyone should read it:
http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2011/04/help-kirby-is-eating-our-hobby.html
42013
Post by: Sinful Hero
I went on a tour with a friend of mine in the Memphis,TN factory. They said that the machine to press the molds cost over $100,000 to have made. Didn't mention the price of the individual molds themselves. I'm pretty sure they make a lot of the space marine sprues there; I think it was Tactical Squad sprues and such? Maybe they said something about Cadians and Rhinos as well. They had 9-12 of those machines, and they also spin-cast some metal models there as well. Don't know about the price of making the "spin-casters". But you're looking at over a million in the presses alone, plus molds, labor, materials, and floor space. After that you have the box, plastic wrap, and shipping.
I don't find their prices all that outrageous for what I get- Awesome models that I not only can display, but have rules to play a game with as well. I don't really understand all the hate towards GW, but maybe I haven't been around long enough to know why I should(not trying to sound confrontational here, sorry if it comes off like that). Anyway, I'll at least keep supporting the hobby even if I have to play alone in my mom's basement.
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Post by: xraytango
aerethan wrote:My second purchase after winning the lotto would be majority share at GW. My first purchase would be a Lotus Elise. Them's some sexy cars.
Then you would become that which you were against. I heard Tom Kirby and Mark Wells liked those fancy-pants automobiles. I might buy anew car but nothing more than what I need, same for a house - only what I need (see Warren Buffet), what I would most definately do would be to fire Wells and Kirby then re-hire them as bathroom attendants.
34906
Post by: Pacific
Sinful Hero wrote: I went on a tour with a friend of mine in the Memphis,TN factory. They said that the machine to press the molds cost over $100,000 to have made. Didn't mention the price of the individual molds themselves. I'm pretty sure they make a lot of the space marine sprues there; I think it was Tactical Squad sprues and such? Maybe they said something about Cadians and Rhinos as well. They had 9-12 of those machines, and they also spin-cast some metal models there as well. Don't know about the price of making the "spin-casters". But you're looking at over a million in the presses alone, plus molds, labor, materials, and floor space. After that you have the box, plastic wrap, and shipping.
I don't find their prices all that outrageous for what I get- Awesome models that I not only can display, but have rules to play a game with as well. I don't really understand all the hate towards GW, but maybe I haven't been around long enough to know why I should(not trying to sound confrontational here, sorry if it comes off like that). Anyway, I'll at least keep supporting the hobby even if I have to play alone in my mom's basement.
Well, that's something that hopefully won't ever have to happen to you!
The point is, as was made in the blog post I linked above, that the few people at the heart of the company, and running it, have sweet f-all interest in actually the hobby itself. So for all of the cost cutting measures, the cutting of staff and massive price hike of units, then tailoring of rules to sell more of those kits, the things which are most complained about by the gaming community, what is done with that additional profit? It's used for a dividend payment, so the shareholders, and more importantly Mr. Kirby, can get a nice big lump of money in their pocket.
And in the meantime the hundreds of thousands of people, if not more, who enjoy the hobby around the world get a worse experience. Of course I will continue to love the hobby, and GW has been an important and enjoyable part of my life, but that doesn't mean I have to just shrug my shoulders at each ill-advised new policy that comes out. It's painful to see something you feel an emotional attachment towards (and how can it be any other way when you have invested so much time in it?) when it's having its face driven into the dirt.
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Post by: Ugavine
Sinful Hero wrote: I went on a tour with a friend of mine in the Memphis,TN factory. They said that the machine to press the molds cost over $100,000 to have made.
Really? I'd say well over because that is cheap compaired to most industrial machinery in the UK.
42013
Post by: Sinful Hero
That's what the plant manager told the group if I remember correctly. Of course, it is possible I may have misheard, and that was the cost of the molds themselves, but I'm fairly sure that wasn't what he said.
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Post by: MrNurgle
The best advice I could give, looking at GW's recent prises is stick with the army you have got
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