I want to start a chain of controversial opinions about 40K. Anything about it. Game designers, models, gameplay, rules, etc. Please post only 1 comment per time, and number it in sequence. Then the next posters can decline to comment or agree/disagree, then post their own opinion. Should make for some interesting debates. But let's keep it civil.

1. The Ork Nob squad, properly fitted out for wound allocation, can kill ANY other model/squad in the entire game. Armageddon not included.

Yes. Yes it can.

Controversy?

1. Daemons are more competitive than people give them credit for. But they can be screwed over by a few select pieces of wargear - Null Zone, Jammers, most of the GK codex etc.

2. The game is too often decided before it begins by army list selection.

3. People haven't noticed it's 5th edition yet, and very few tables have LoS blocking terrain.

4. Dawn of War is a terrible deployment type.

5. The reason people think TH/SS terminators are so good is because they live and die on the luck of the rolls. There aren't enough bodies, and their fate decided by too few rolls, so they are very susceptible to non-average dice rolling. No one remembers the time they killed them quickly - people only ever remember the time nothing stopped them and they hammernated their entire army.

6. Mephiston is not very good.

Thunderfire is possibly the best gun in the game.

GCMandrake wrote:1. Daemons are more competitive than people give them credit for. But they can be screwed over by a few select pieces of wargear - Null Zone, Jammers, most of the GK codex etc.

Yes, Daemons are the only army to have tabled my orks. Damnit...

2. The game is too often decided before it begins by army list selection.

Totally. Taking battle wagons with deff rolls against Tyranids is dumb.

3. People haven't noticed it's 5th edition yet, and very few tables have LoS blocking terrain.

I do! Every time I get the chance to set up terrain.

4. Dawn of War is a terrible deployment type.

A truer statement was never made.

5. The reason people think TH/SS terminators are so good is because they live and die on the luck of the rolls. There aren't enough bodies, and their fate decided by too few rolls, so they are very susceptible to non-average dice rolling. No one remembers the time they killed them quickly - people only ever remember the time nothing stopped them and they hammernated their entire army.

Hammernated. I like it!

6. Mephiston is not very good.

Don't know, haven't played against him.

As for my controversial opinion, I've stated it before and here it comes again.

#1: I want a 15MM Warhammer 40,000 game! It would be a hybrid of the current rules and the epic rules. There would be more flavor, IE: wargear, all the specific units and equipment options from the codexes (Yes, Codexes, get over it...) but would have no to-wound rolls, and would use the epic blast points system. Troops would not be based in bunches, rather their would be oval-shaped movement trays, sort of like that big oval GW base but with a lip around it to keep models from sliding off. The current 30MM rules would be replaced with something more detailed and skirmishy. Still unit-based, but including the sort of stuff that you see in RPG's. Flame on...

I would post some of my "controversial opinions" here, but the thread would degenerate into *real* flames then.

How about they release the new Demiurg as an army with rules like this.

When they are used against Marine armies their equipment is disabled by Ion tech. So no power armour save or power weapons work, they strike last in combat and are always wounded on a 2+ and the Demiurg have prefered enemy agaisnt them. Also deepstriking units mishap when deploying near them

Not fair you say?
It's fine against Daemons ?

Necrons are the worst army at the moment and cannot compete at all.

Dashofpepper wrote:I would post some of my "controversial opinions" here, but the thread would degenerate into *real* flames then.

All the more reason to post them!

My controversial opinion is that most of these controversial opinions are really just statements of fact.

Jaon wrote:Necrons are the worst army at the moment and cannot compete at all.

I know an IG player who i creamed with my Crons that would have loved that to be true

Turn 1: i deploy my gunline of warriors and immortals, he deploys his gunline of flashlights and tanks. We shoot the heck out of each other and do a goodly amount of killing,
Turn 2: Destroyers destroy, and all that is dead starts getting back up, the IG stay dead, but tanks start putting a hurting on non-orbed troops.
Turn 3: Monolith deepstrikes in the middle of his infantry and his tanks, Flux arc kills many IG, Immortals teleport behind enemy lines with a Lord
Turn 4: most of IG infantry is desvistated, what vehicles remain are getting glanced to death, Crons still continue to get back up half the time.



Crons dont need an update, 5th edition is ALL armor, ALL crons can hurt armor. WBB indeed; Necrons also have an ARMY WIDE Feel No Pain that, with two well-placed HQs, can be taken regardless of damage type (AP1, Power Swd. etc), boast a Lance/melta immune AV 14 vehicle. Oh and because of WBB, they can double-tap your assault units after they consolidate.

Heck, i think everything has at least a few insane things in their 'Dex that are crazy. 40K is possibly the least balanced game i have ever played, i still love it though. :p

Spacemarines: we shall not be swept from the board, or escorted off of it. Also; our "X" are better than yours (any buffed unit in a SM Chapter thats different from ultrasmurffs)
Seriously through, GW loves SM so much that if another army becomes more awesome, a new SW Dex will hit the shelves soon after

IG: We hid 3 Russ Demoliters right next to your whole army, and you didnt notice until turn 3. CREEED

Orkz: Ghrazzgul loves (his +2 invuln save) giving his army a 12" assault, furious charge, and fearless. And i dont care of they are all BS2, 30 STR 7 shots are always going to hurt.

Dark Eldar: 12" assault? we got a 21-27" assault ON TURN ONE. talk about OP. Hey we got jealous of Necron's army wide Feel no Pain, so we got a system that gives us that and Army wide Furious Charge, and Army wide Fearless too. We also have the only unit in game that can do 12 Powerweapon Swings at initiative 9, oh and you get one less swing against her. Hey, i can also take a HQ that is IMMUNE to Psykers! and redeploys up to 3 of my already insanely mobile army! Also: space pimp always seizes on a 4+

Tau: yeah we suck, but we still have a Hvy Supt slot that can fire 3(!) STR 10 AP 1 TL shots at 4 feet away after moving!

sharkticon wrote:My controversial opinion is that most of these controversial opinions are really just statements of fact.

Jaon wrote:Necrons are the worst army at the moment and cannot compete at all.

Please. In most of my games, my Necrons lose 1-3 models throughout the whole game, and 2/3 of the models in the army *never join the fight* - and would sit permanently in reserve until the end of the game if they could.

My controversial opinions:

1. My Necrons can wtfpwn anyone in this thread.

2. Dark Eldar is the most powerful codex in 40k.

3. Space Wolves are treacherous to the Imperium and Fenris should be virus-bombed, and the entire legion's history be expunged from Imperial Records.

4. I'm the best 40k player in the world. Nyah nyah myah.

There is no such thing as tactics. Just writing a list, deploying, and rolling dice.

The sad thing is, I agree with most of the points by all posters made so far.

Frazzled wrote:The sad thing is, I agree with most of the points by all posters made so far.

Likewise, not terribly controversial.

Here's my controversial opinion:

The Emperor eventually intended to be a god, and laid the seeds of that during the Great Crusade in how he appeared and how he had his Primarchs appear. Horus only sped up his ascension to religious godhood, a forced change in plans because of his injuries.

Melissia wrote:Here's my controversial opinion:

The Emperor eventually intended to be a god, and laid the seeds of that during the Great Crusade in how he appeared and how he had his Primarchs appear. Horus only sped up his ascension to religious godhood, a forced change in plans because of his injuries.

It does seem like he was planning it all along...

PraetorDave wrote:There is no such thing as tactics. Just writing a list, deploying, and rolling dice.

Can I have your address? I want to send you a package in the mail. When it arrives, don't shake it and ignore the ticking...

*rabble*

To a certain extent, the player determines victory more than the list.

AresX8 wrote:To a certain extent, the player determines victory more than the list.

That's not only prefaced with a disclaimer to make it non-controversial, but then you said something non-controversial anyway.

To a certain extent, yellow is not green.

*laughing*

Luck is far more of a factor in determining who wins a game than tactics, strategy, army-list, generalship and play-style combined.

L. Wrex

luck and skill mean little when you have a few loaded dice. . .

Fine, I'll play.



The Grey Knights fluff isn't really that bad.

Mat Ward is a good Codex writer.

GW cares about its customers.

Tau are competitive.

Grey Hunters are not better than Tactical Marines.

The Star Child is real.

Ok!

1. The starchild/Illuminati/ Sensei Fluff is not gone from 40k. The -I- Novels might have been discredited, but those things are far older than those novels. Until GW speceificlly states that: "There is no starchild, there is no illuminati and there are no Sesnei!" Than this background material is alive and well.

2. Matt Ward needs to write the next Chaos Codex so he can kick start the original traitor legions back into prominence. (not joking)

An army with two wounds each has a lot going for it.

Siren is not beardy.

Virus bombs are overcosted.

IG speeders suck.

The Space Wolves turned to Chaos during the Heresy.

Few codices have as many overcosted units and options as IG.

WAAC is one of, if not the best way to play the game.

Claiming your list is "fluffy" or "casual" is no more than an excuse to take bad units or be a crutch for poor play.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Can I have your address? I want to send you a package in the mail. When it arrives, don't shake it and ignore the ticking...

*rabble*

The pot calling the kettle black?



Wamachine is a better tactical game than 40k.

I love killpoints

That Jervis Johnson wrote a good DA book (before FAQ)

I love Gav's work on codex CSM

The IG army is very balanced

Marines do not have enough love from the game designers

Comp should be in more tournaments

Note: for all those who have read this, don't take this thread seriously.

My opinion is that DoP will never be half as good as he already thinks he is...

This thread has degenerated from real controversial opinions into parody.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:This thread has degenerated from real controversial opinions into parody.

This...

Smurff's are underrated

1. 40k has been getting better with the release of every edition. RT and 2nd Ed. were borderline slowed.

2. 40k was never intended to be a competitive game.

3. Converting 40k into a turn-based videogame would eliminate 99% of the problems associated with the game. It would also be a death knell for GW.

4. Human error in measurement alone (overmeasuring moves, assaults, shooting, moving blast markers improperly, etc.) decides a fair number of 40k games.

DoP wants us to believe he's not WAAC, but in fact has a supercomputer in his house computing ways to beat every single strategy possible in the most underhanded ways possible.

Polonius wrote:Few codices have as many overcosted units and options as IG.

only because they have 10k options. The are bound to be some losers in there.

Losing and having fun are not mutually exclusive.

Playing a unit because you like the way it looks or because you think it's cool is a valid reason.

And finally: just because it's posted on the Internet, doesn't mean it's true.

People constantly forget that not everyone wants to build an uber competitive army and then base their opinion of that entire codex's player base on the few tournament lists and players they have seen.

bucheonman wrote:I want to start a chain of controversial opinions about 40K. Anything about it. Game designers, models, gameplay, rules, etc. Please post only 1 comment per time, and number it in sequence. Then the next posters can decline to comment or agree/disagree, then post their own opinion. Should make for some interesting debates. But let's keep it civil.

1. The Ork Nob squad, properly fitted out for wound allocation, can kill ANY other model/squad in the entire game. Armageddon not included.

Far from true: I charged a Nob squad kitted out properly with a unit of 5 Death Company with Lemartes and all carrying power weapons. Ate the Nobz alive. The fully decked out squad was at full health too. The Nobz never even got to swing. If a Death Company gets the charge, it will kill Nobz every time. And with the re-rolls, it was only slightly above average

timetowaste85 wrote:

bucheonman wrote:I want to start a chain of controversial opinions about 40K. Anything about it. Game designers, models, gameplay, rules, etc. Please post only 1 comment per time, and number it in sequence. Then the next posters can decline to comment or agree/disagree, then post their own opinion. Should make for some interesting debates. But let's keep it civil.

1. The Ork Nob squad, properly fitted out for wound allocation, can kill ANY other model/squad in the entire game. Armageddon not included.

Far from true: I charged a Nob squad kitted out properly with a unit of 5 Death Company with Lemartes and all carrying power weapons. Ate the Nobz alive. The fully decked out squad was at full health too. The Nobz never even got to swing. If a Death Company gets the charge, it will kill Nobz every time. And with the re-rolls, it was only slightly above average

Well it can't kill any model/unit in the game including apocalypse units because it can't necessarily attack every unit in the game.

The BoLS tactics articles suck and most of their writers are bad at making lists.

1. This game is 90% having enough bankroll to go out and buy 200$ worth of models to re-tune your army every time a new codex is released.

2. It's 10% having enough bankroll to go out and buy a whole new army whenever your current armies codex gets too old.

3. "Fluffy" play hasn't existed since 3e.

4. I hope Matt Ward does the Tau codex. I will weep for the fluff, and dance through the isles when railguns are STR11.

Orks have more variaty than any army and are the best army for conversions while still being competitive.

loota boy wrote:Orks have more variaty than any army and are the best army for conversions while still being competitive.

That's simply true not controversail...
Then again, most of these are.

Cottonjaw wrote:1. This game is 90% having enough bankroll to go out and buy 200$ worth of models to re-tune your army every time a new codex is released.

2. It's 10% having enough bankroll to go out and buy a whole new army whenever your current armies codex gets too old.

1) If you don't have 200 buck to waste every 3-5 years, get a job.

2) Change to each new Codex. Then I with you here.

Tyranids can be potentially the cheesiest army in the game.

Hmm, I guess mine would be: Luck is nearly (if not as) important as Brains in deciding the Winner of the game.

Luck = Dice/Opponent
Brains = List/Tactics/Deployment

As a 10+ year player of Magic the Gathering, Luck deciding the outcome is something I'm used to. At least the Creators of Magic have basically come out and said that 1/3 of all games are decided by the Draw.

Cottonjaw wrote:

4. I hope Matt Ward does the Tau codex. I will weep for the fluff, and dance through the isles when railguns are STR11.

Hardly.

Tau Railguns are going to be STR10 AP1 JotWW equivalent with unlimited range, except it can hurt vehicles too. Firewarriors will still be T3, but two wounds each, BS5, and their pulse rifles will be dual-wielded, one in each hand, with a 15" rapid fire rambo style.

You don't even want to know about the new "Star Pulse" weapon mount for the hammerhead.

I think you guys misunderstood. By numbering, I mean that it is a sequence from the start of the entire thread.

I will start fresh at #51

51. Dash's arrogance is actually a cover for his insecurity about certain sizes of body parts.

52. Necrons are going to get hosed in heir new codex. Better than now, but barely.

53. Dash can not win with Necrons withut 3 monoliths.

bucheonman wrote:I think you guys misunderstood. By numbering, I mean that it is a sequence from the start of the entire thread.


51. Dash's arrogance is actually a cover for his insecurity about certain sizes of body parts.

True that. I don't look good in hats because I have a big head. And I freak out about my weight because my six pack has quite a bit of padding on it now, although its fortunately shrinking.

I must say though, every time I've visited Canada, Canadian girls were all over us. Not only because of the uniforms. They said that Canadian men blame their own insecurities on the cold weather, but even vigorous warming doesn't help. Canada is also the #1 world-wide consumer of male-enhancement devices. France is #2. Surprisingly, Asians (despite their reputation about such things) couldn't care less.

Such interesting things we know!

Oh, and my Tomb Spyder wing (9x Tomb Spyders, 30x Scarabs, 2 Lords, 20 warriors, 8 immortals) wins just fine.

Dashofpepper wrote:

bucheonman wrote:I think you guys misunderstood. By numbering, I mean that it is a sequence from the start of the entire thread.


51. Dash's arrogance is actually a cover for his insecurity about certain sizes of body parts.

True that. I don't look good in hats because I have a big head. And I freak out about my weight because my six pack has quite a bit of padding on it now, although its fortunately shrinking.

I must say though, every time I've visited Canada, Canadian girls were all over us. Not only because of the uniforms. They said that Canadian men blame their own insecurities on the cold weather, but even vigorous warming doesn't help. Canada is also the #1 world-wide consumer of male-enhancement devices. France is #2. Surprisingly, Asians (despite their reputation about such things) couldn't care less.

Such interesting things we know!

Oh, and my Tomb Spyder wing (9x Tomb Spyders, 30x Scarabs, 2 Lords, 20 warriors, 8 immortals) wins just fine.

I've always wanted to try that but the pain of having to put together the spyders deterred me. How does it fair up vs lots of long range?

It is ALWAYS cold in Canada. How can a poor guy get a chance??? Shrinkage is a real thing.

Kurgash wrote:

I've always wanted to try that but the pain of having to put together the spyders deterred me. How does it fair up vs lots of long range?

Very well actually.

Tomb Spyders generally have 3+ armour, 3+ cover. You can generate a scarab swarm (I actually have 39 scarab swarms - 30 for fast attack and 9 for my tomb spyders). Each scarab swarm benefits from +1 cover, so the key is to advance up the table with tomb spyders out of cover (or in, doesn't matter) and the scarab swarms in cover - getting their 4+, then a 3+ from swarm. Since half the unit is getting 3+ cover, the other half gets it too. I've got veil and a rez orb on my T5 immortals, and they teleport into/behind/around the really bad long range stuff.

GW has legitimate reasons for hiking their prices...ducks for cover...

Dashofpepper wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

I've always wanted to try that but the pain of having to put together the spyders deterred me. How does it fair up vs lots of long range?

Very well actually.

Tomb Spyders generally have 3+ armour, 3+ cover. You can generate a scarab swarm (I actually have 39 scarab swarms - 30 for fast attack and 9 for my tomb spyders). Each scarab swarm benefits from +1 cover, so the key is to advance up the table with tomb spyders out of cover (or in, doesn't matter) and the scarab swarms in cover - getting their 4+, then a 3+ from swarm. Since half the unit is getting 3+ cover, the other half gets it too. I've got veil and a rez orb on my T5 immortals, and they teleport into/behind/around the really bad long range stuff.

Huh, might have to try that one day. Normally use my spyder as a buffer zone to give my destroyers a little breathing room and not huddled together. I did always like the concept of just swarming the enemy with scarabs and spyders.

55. GW is really bad at making lists in their articles, and they are bad because they insist on using as many different types of units as possible. This is to try to advertise as many models as possible in a single article.

56. TH/SS terminators arn't nearly as powerful as people make them out to be.

KP are better than Victory Points. Yeah I'm for real. It's the onlt thing that "kinda" makes razor spam and mech vets completely OP. I weep thinking about how many turns it would take me to make the points up for a carnifex or tyranofex.

sexiest_hero wrote:KP are better than Victory Points. Yeah I'm for real. It's the onlt thing that "kinda" makes razor spam and mech vets completely OP. I weep thinking about how many turns it would take me to make the points up for a carnifex or tyranofex.

Poor game design is not an excuse for further poor game design

Here's mine, there is nothing wrong with Mechanization in 5E, rather, it is the lack of utility with the ground-pounder. Look to other games like Flames of War where footslogging infantry have lots of options for interacting with the board.

Squats were/are a cool looking army.

They were only taken out of the game because the game designers sucked at figuring out a nice earthy theme for them like slowing down other armies with Graviton Guns and blowing huge holes in the earth with Mole Mortars to impede enemy movement.

Squats were/are more gritty/grimdark than any Space Marine chapter.

I'm deadly serious here,

Black Library need to get C. S. Goto to write more books, or more fluff.

For those wondering who C.S. Goto is, Here's some of his books "Highlights"

-Multilasers are standard Equip for Marines, Lander Raiders AND CARNIFEXES, Seriously

- D-Cannons fire Bullets (Eldar? BULLETS!?)

- Beil Tans Avatar is dead, His sword has been missing for 3000 years.

- Terminators can BACKFLIP, YES BACKFLIP, (Screw your slow and purposeful)

- Land Raiders can transform into Razorbacks and Back.

- To really make the fluff lovers rage, Khornate Sorcerers.


GIVE GOTO A RAISE!

PraetorDave wrote:There is no such thing as tactics. Just writing a list, deploying, and rolling dice.

+1 for great justice!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thehod wrote: Wamachine is a better tactical game than 40k.

Well, I suppose even things that are patently true can still be controversial.

C.S Goto is actually pretty entertaining...

He's very entertaining, if only in the same way watching people face plant off skateboards is entertaining.

a Looted Wagon is a good transport option!

Lictors, if used properly, can be lethal.

Mat Ward isn't THAT bad.

Carnifexes are better than Trygons at some things (like long-ranged fire support and tank hunting).

3rd edition Daemonettes are ADORABLE! (No, I'm not a fangirl).

Chapterhouse is technically illegal (but still awesome).

Blood Angels are not THAT overpowered.

Pyrovores are great in Cities of Death.

White Dwarf is a great magazine.

Chuck Norris is a wimp.

The Nemesis Dreadknight is an OK model.

Thousand Sons are quite good.

GW needs to get Andy Chambers back...and fast!!!

Squigsquasher wrote:

Carnifexes are better than Trygons at some things (like long-ranged fire support and tank hunting).

Yeah, they're better at long range fire support, but it doesn't mean they're worth it in that role or even good. A guardsmen is better than a Grot in CC but it doesn't mean Guardsmen are good in CC. Likewise, for Tank Hunting, assuming both the Trygon and Carnifex have dual scything talons for rerolls, a Carnifex is inflicting an average of 1 destroyed/explodes result against a rear AV10 tank and hitting on 4's with 4 attacks while a Trygon with 6 attacks is inflicting an average of 1.083 under the same circumstances, 8.3% better, with 50% more survivability.

the deceiver is the laughing god

and death korps are just normal guard

Librius Machina wrote:He's very entertaining, if only in the same way watching people face plant off skateboards is entertaining.

It's not that his STORY is bad, it's that he's using the wrong bloody setting.

For me?

-Battlefleet Gothic is a much better game.
-Vehicles aren't overpowered, infantry is underpowered.
-Warhammer 40k isn't THAT expensive as a whole.
-Shooting needs to be deadlier, while assaults need to be more decisive.
-Snipers need to be better.
-The game almost never lives up to the fluff.
-Apocalypse is almost worthless without either: a) a tight knit gaming group or b) a well thoutht out, well planned story.
-Grey Knights & Inquisition should have been a Harlequin~esque add on to various Imperial forces.
-GW should do more global campaigns.
-There should be more focus on campaigns in general, and these campaigns should actually affect fluff. (Even a little note in the BRB about one of them would make me happy!)

ChrisWWII wrote:
-Warhammer 40k isn't THAT expensive as a whole.

while i agree on everything else, this is completely wrong.
the AUS dollar is buying something like $1.03US, but your battle forces cost $90, ours cost $150!

if you had to pay an extra $60 for a battleforce youd be pretty cheesed

but it is an expensive hobby which just means sometimes we cant afford shimp on the barby, or a shiny new squad

[edits for spelling]

Matt ward should make his next codex roll D7s

^^ It's only ridiculous for Australians thanks to weird pricing, but I am one of those who hold that in comparison to other hobbies, Warhammer 40k is at the same level as far as costs though.

40k is rather cheap compared to many other hobbies. Compare it to paintball. $120-450 for a halfway decent marker, $150 nitro tank, $60-120 hopper, $50 mask, $40 Pack+tubes, another $50 on stuff like cleaning tools and the like, and that's just to get started. Then you're looking at $100-200 *every* time you go play on food, air, and most especially paint at roughly $50 per box on the cheap side for decent paint, not to mention travel time and gas to the field, repairs, etc.

Mech is not king in the 5th edition. Look! there are nids for example, no vehicles there.

It is possible to make a competive foot-slogging Eldar list.

Grey Knights should be Excommunicate Traitoris for mass genocide against other space marines chapters and humanity.

I heard Matt Ward was re-doing the 40k rules.

redeyed wrote:I heard Matt Ward was re-doing the 40k rules.

He re-did Fantasy and it was better for it. I wouldn't mind seeing his take on 6th edition 40K.

GW is just a miniatures company and uses codex/rules creep and associated human nature to keep people buying new figures.

I'm not sure if this is controversial or not, but it was a big debate at my FLGS:

AoBR is a better Ork battleforce than the Ork battleforce

Ultramarines deserve more respect.

Squats belonged in the WH40k universe and should never have been removed.

Space Wolves and Blood Angels are over-hyped.

DarkDrgon wrote:I'm not sure if this is controversial or not, but it was a big debate at my FLGS:

AoBR is a better Ork battleforce than the Ork battleforce

Yes.

Vaktathi wrote:40k is rather cheap compared to many other hobbies. Compare it to paintball. $120-450 for a halfway decent marker, $150 nitro tank, $60-120 hopper, $50 mask, $40 Pack+tubes, another $50 on stuff like cleaning tools and the like, and that's just to get started. Then you're looking at $100-200 *every* time you go play on food, air, and most especially paint at roughly $50 per box on the cheap side for decent paint, not to mention travel time and gas to the field, repairs, etc.

Agreed. I totalled up my video game purchases, including systems and gaming PC for the last 4 years, and had spent over $10k. In 4 years of playing 40k I wouldn't even spend a quarter of that.

Vaktathi wrote:a Carnifex is inflicting an average of 1 destroyed/explodes result against a rear AV10 tank and hitting on 4's with 4 attacks while a Trygon with 6 attacks is inflicting an average of 1.083 under the same circumstances, 8.3% better, with 50% more survivability. \

If you're sending your Carnifexes against AV10 tanks, you're using them wrong.

As for survivability, use better terrain. There's no reason a Carnifex should be taking as many hits as that towering Trygon is taking. TLOS works in the short, compact Carnifexes favour.

"And the greatest of them all are the Ultramarines..."

-Loki- wrote:
If you're sending your Carnifexes against AV10 tanks, you're using them wrong.

Considering that every vehicle in the game except Dreads/Kans, Defilers/Soulgrinders, Armored Sentinels, Penitent Engines, Monoliths, Land Raiders, Stormravens and Leman Russ Demolisher variants is rear AV-10 (the only value that matters in assaults) sending them against anything that *isn't* rear AV10 is by far a rare exception.

That said, against the higher AV units, it's not like the Trygon isn't still also incredibly deadly in its own right against many/most of these units

As for survivability, use better terrain. There's no reason a Carnifex should be taking as many hits as that towering Trygon is taking. TLOS works in the short, compact Carnifexes favour.

A carnifex itself isn't exactly small, they are hard to hide completely, especially if they aren't build to be compact and hidey. There's plenty of well terrained boards that would either give the same cover save to both or none to either, and the Trygon has Fleet to get into combat faster. Even assuming the Carni gets a cover save and the Trygon doesn't, against non AP3 fire it doesn't matter, and against AP3/2/1 fire it merely puts the Carnifex on statistical par with the Trygon in terms of survivability.

The Outcast created the Tyranids and became the hive mind to consume all life in some sort of crazy continuation of eating a load of the other star gods.

The Dreadknights looks cool, as do all Grey Knights.

The whole Chuck Norris meme thing is getting old.

DarkDrgon wrote:I'm not sure if this is controversial or not, but it was a big debate at my FLGS:

AoBR is a better Ork battleforce than the Ork battleforce

This is pretty obvious. The ork battleforce gets you 3 bikers, 20 boyz, and a trukk. If you are going to use the trukk, you can't load the full 12 in without having 8 left, which is illegal. So You have to load just ten, and then you have 10 footslogging, useless boyz. 3 warbikes is also equally worthless, as they have as much damage output as just three boyz, but still int 2. Also, when you total up set costs, for $22 per 10 orks, $25 for bikers, and $30 for trukk, it totals out to $104.94 with a six percent tax. For the battleforce, it's a total of $95.40. Congratz, you saved a grand total of $9.54. So much for saving money on the battleforce. The blackreach box is stupidly cost effective, because not only are you saving more than the ork battleforce, but that's just for the orks! You also save $8 for templates, $50 for a rulebook, and get some long plastic things! But wait, there's more! You also get an awesome space marines battleforce too! So You could split the cost with a friend, and save even more amounts of money, or you could trade the marines off to some player for some more orks!

loota boy wrote:

DarkDrgon wrote:I'm not sure if this is controversial or not, but it was a big debate at my FLGS:

AoBR is a better Ork battleforce than the Ork battleforce

This is pretty obvious. The ork battleforce gets you 3 bikers, 20 boyz, and a trukk. If you are going to use the trukk, you can't load the full 12 in without having 8 left, which is illegal. So You have to load just ten, and then you have 10 footslogging, useless boyz. 3 warbikes is also equally worthless, as they have as much damage output as just three boyz, but still int 2. Also, when you total up set costs, for $22 per 10 orks, $25 for bikers, and $30 for trukk, it totals out to $104.94 with a six percent tax. For the battleforce, it's a total of $95.40. Congratz, you saved a grand total of $9.54. So much for saving money on the battleforce. The blackreach box is stupidly cost effective, because not only are you saving more than the ork battleforce, but that's just for the orks! You also save $8 for templates, $50 for a rulebook, and get some long plastic things! But wait, there's more! You also get an awesome space marines battleforce too! So You could split the cost with a friend, and save even more amounts of money, or you could trade the marines off to some player for some more orks!

A Definite case of QFT

A lot of people grumbled about the AOBR figure quality, but looking on the GW Site, forums and even Google Images, You can clearly see there's nothing wrong with them,

Remember: There snap fit!
Compare them to older snap fit models and there actually REALLY good quality, downside is only that 'Unique-ing' them is a bit more work, but hey go look at the Dreadnought show off thread for example, and see what can be done with them.

Also, My biggest thumb up for AOBR is that I think the Deffkopta design is FAR superior to the one's bought from GW individually.

New "Controversial Opinion":

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with Ultramarines,

Okay lots of people paint them (and unfortunately, no disrespect to any UM players here, a lot are painted horribly, but consider how many people play UM as there first army when there young, it's going to happen).

Grumble, grumble, grumble, but they get all the glory in the SM Dex

Maybe, but the same can be said about almost all Dex's (Aside from GK, and Non-Vanilla SM Dex's, Dexes, Dexi?) The Ork Dex is All "Goff, Goff, Goff", The CSM is all "THA BLACK LEGION IS THE AWESOME!"

My personal view is that the UM can be good, and even *Gasp!* Cool (yeah I used UM and Cool in the same sentence and Im not 12) as long as there done right. Quick example:


Poorly painted, almost typical UM (Apologize to the painter, but lets be honest)


Well painted UM
(Granted this is GDemon standard, OTT, But still Cool!)

Cheers to CMON for images

/Rant

Finally, someone has spoken the absolute truth on the Ultramarines!


OK, new controversial opinion:

The Tyranid Codex is the best-written, fairest, most balanced Codex in the WHOLE GAME, and if every army had its Codex written by Robin Cruddace, the world would be a better place.

The Squats were a TERRIBLE idea and should NEVER BE MENTIONED AGAIN.


And finally...


Lost In Space was a good film.

Grey Knights aren't borken, just poorly written in both rules and fluff.

Event Horizon is 40k's prequel.

Squigsquasher wrote:Finally, someone has spoken the absolute truth on the Ultramarines!

I'm sig-ing that for future refrence!

Squigsquasher wrote:
The Squats were a TERRIBLE idea and should NEVER BE MENTIONED AGAIN.

Maybe not terrible, but 6th edition should feature the new ruling:
"If your opponent, people at your FLGS, or anyone you ever meet make reference to, or suggest a return of A certain short race, Your are entitled to deliver them a swift kick to the groin area, repeatedly."

GW has never had an original idea.
Upon induction GW staff have a small creature implanted in their ears which forces them to try and sell you models you don't need.
The Tau were created as direct result of GW's fear of pokemon.
Thats all I know.

I have to agree!

My controversial opinion is this: the Emperor is (no, not Chuck Norris [chuck created the emperor]) extremely vain, and gave half of his sons as an offering to the chaos Gods so that a load of Black Library books could be written and sold (he owns the Black Library as well now) and he would make a lot of money. And he claims every planet of the Imperium as his second homes and puts them on expenses to pay for his hospital treatment (his life-support-chair-throne-thing)

I think Games Workshop prices are reasonable.

Now THERE's a controversial opinion!

Cerebrium wrote:Thunderfire is possibly the best gun in the game.

I've used it to decent effect!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reanimator wrote:

Playing a unit because you like the way it looks or because you think it's cool is a valid reason.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think alot of people vote 10/10 for their own minis on here... how else would some of the most atrocious painting appear at the top of my gallery search despite its poor appearance?

The Dice Gods are Gork and Mork!

EvilTim wrote:

loota boy wrote:

DarkDrgon wrote:I'm not sure if this is controversial or not, but it was a big debate at my FLGS:

AoBR is a better Ork battleforce than the Ork battleforce

This is pretty obvious. The ork battleforce gets you 3 bikers, 20 boyz, and a trukk. If you are going to use the trukk, you can't load the full 12 in without having 8 left, which is illegal. So You have to load just ten, and then you have 10 footslogging, useless boyz. 3 warbikes is also equally worthless, as they have as much damage output as just three boyz, but still int 2. Also, when you total up set costs, for $22 per 10 orks, $25 for bikers, and $30 for trukk, it totals out to $104.94 with a six percent tax. For the battleforce, it's a total of $95.40. Congratz, you saved a grand total of $9.54. So much for saving money on the battleforce. The blackreach box is stupidly cost effective, because not only are you saving more than the ork battleforce, but that's just for the orks! You also save $8 for templates, $50 for a rulebook, and get some long plastic things! But wait, there's more! You also get an awesome space marines battleforce too! So You could split the cost with a friend, and save even more amounts of money, or you could trade the marines off to some player for some more orks!

A Definite case of QFT

A lot of people grumbled about the AOBR figure quality, but looking on the GW Site, forums and even Google Images, You can clearly see there's nothing wrong with them,

Remember: There snap fit!
Compare them to older snap fit models and there actually REALLY good quality, downside is only that 'Unique-ing' them is a bit more work, but hey go look at the Dreadnought show off thread for example, and see what can be done with them.

Also, My biggest thumb up for AOBR is that I think the Deffkopta design is FAR superior to the one's bought from GW individually.

New "Controversial Opinion":

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with Ultramarines,

Okay lots of people paint them (and unfortunately, no disrespect to any UM players here, a lot are painted horribly, but consider how many people play UM as there first army when there young, it's going to happen).

Grumble, grumble, grumble, but they get all the glory in the SM Dex

Maybe, but the same can be said about almost all Dex's (Aside from GK, and Non-Vanilla SM Dex's, Dexes, Dexi?) The Ork Dex is All "Goff, Goff, Goff", The CSM is all "THA BLACK LEGION IS THE AWESOME!"

My personal view is that the UM can be good, and even *Gasp!* Cool (yeah I used UM and Cool in the same sentence and Im not 12) as long as there done right. Quick example:


Poorly painted, almost typical UM (Apologize to the painter, but lets be honest)


Well painted UM
(Granted this is GDemon standard, OTT, But still Cool!)

Cheers to CMON for images

/Rant

Whole heartedly agree about Ultras. When you look beyond the whole stigma of most people painting Ultras as their first army, you find that they are Space Romans. That's ridiculously awesome. Albeit I'm completely biased as I picked Ultras after researching the rest of the chapters and also am a huge fan of McNeill's novels.

Ugavine wrote:I think Games Workshop prices are reasonable.

I agree. More accurately, they are reasonable, in comparison with other hobbies.

GW is really sexist

WAAC is one of, if not the best way to play the game.

Claiming your list is "fluffy" or "casual" is no more than an excuse to take bad units or be a crutch for poor play.

AresX8 wrote:
Whole heartedly agree about Ultras. When you look beyond the whole stigma of most people painting Ultras as their first army, you find that they are Space Romans. That's ridiculously awesome. Albeit I'm completely biased as I picked Ultras after researching the rest of the chapters and also am a huge fan of McNeill's novels.

Personally, I think the biggest problem the Ultras have is this:

(Thats Mr Matthew Ward BTW)