Okay this thread is to save another, I am hoping it will work.
Now, in the "chaos has won" thread it started to turn into Tau vs Imperium. The Tau side of the argument mainly fueled by one guy.
So what do you think? Is the Tau "Empire" a looming threat to the Imperium that will eventually be its downfall? Or are they just a blip in the timeline that is 40k?
Tau are quite powerful, but when it comes to the great scale of things - Imperium wins in every way.
Because it's no matter how much advanced technology you have, the share numbers of Imperial troops is quite enough to defeat them.
I would say that they are just a "blip". A new race invented only to draw more money from fans and to draw attention to Asian people.
Brother Coa wrote:Tau are quite powerful, but when it comes to the great scale of things - Imperium wins in every way.
Because it's no matter how much advanced technology you have, the share numbers of Imperial troops is quite enough to defeat them.
I would say that they are just a "blip". A new race invented only to draw more money from fans and to draw attention to Asian people.
I agree, look at WWII. The Russians steamrolled through the German lines because they were willing to take losses and throw themselves at the German guns.
(Nobody better start making this thread about Nazi's now!!!!!!!)
Tau - the bane of the Imperium??? Maybe in Warhammer 50k, but atm there are just not enough of them.. considering their shorter lifespan, especially.
I think the Imperium as a whole does not consider these blue guys to be a threat:
Orks: There are probably more orks in the universe than human beings
Tyranid: Same here
Eldar: No Threat either..their golden age is over. They do not conquer, but defend
Dark Eldar: Special case scenario - I have no clue how BIG commorragh is, and how many DE are there, but I think they are even less then normal Eldar
Necrons: (atm) no threat.. their aims are not clear currently. If the C'tan would really want to destroy a race (suneating) instead of gettin' high on killing people physically while having a body of liquid metal, bye bye Imperium. The Emperor is crippled, he might protect Terra and its sun, but everything outside the solar system is doomed.
Considering that the Nids are encroaching on Tau space, I'd say they're going to have a serious uphill battle to be a real threat to the IoM in the future.
The entirety of the Tau Empire is this miniscule little circle in the corner of the galactic south-east, entirely surrounded by Imperial space, plus a handful of worlds in the Jericho Reach, to the far galactic north-east from the Segmentum Ultima. Worlds threatened not only by the Imperium's Crusade in the Reach, but also Hive Fleet Dagon, a series of systems under the control of the Arch-Enemy, and the Deathwatch.
If the Imperium were willing to sacrifice the worlds of the Tau Empire, a well-spread salvo of cyclonic torpedoes would basically remove this race from the face of galactic politics for the next five hundred thousand years.
The only threat they pose to the IoM is the rapid rate of their technology advancing.
How it has been advancing is the big question. Were they helped along by the Eldar? Have they found an intact STC? Or, are they able to do this all on their own?
If they've been advanced with aid from the Eldar, they're not going to develop into much of a threat, as they're fairly close to the Eldar level of technology and won't be able to continue advancing.
If they have an intact STC or are really a species of amazing technical prowess, then their technological boom could continue for a millennium or more. At that point, they would be a very serious threat to anyone not working for the greater good.
Grakmar wrote:Tau are currently totally insignificant.
The only threat they pose to the IoM is the rapid rate of their technology advancing.
How it has been advancing is the big question. Were they helped along by the Eldar? Have they found an intact STC? Or, are they able to do this all on their own?
If they've been advanced with aid from the Eldar, they're not going to develop into much of a threat, as they're fairly close to the Eldar level of technology and won't be able to continue advancing.
If they have an intact STC or are really a species of amazing technical prowess, then their technological boom could continue for a millennium or more. At that point, they would be a very serious threat to anyone not working for the greater good.
On this subject it realy isnt to surprising they are where they are now. Warp space ime is much different from real space. 3000 years out hear could be 300,000 in the warp.
Tau are a significant force on the Imperiums South-Eastern Fringe but outside of that they won't be a player, nor can they ever be until they find an efficient means of inter-planetary travel.
Dunno who can seriously claim that they're a serious threat to the Imperium right now though. The Imperial worlds along the borders of the Empire maybe, sure, but they're not potentially existential threats like the Necrons, Tyranids, or perhaps even Chaos.
Harriticus wrote:Tau are a significant force on the Imperiums South-Eastern Fringe but outside of that they won't be a player, nor can they ever be until they find an efficient means of inter-planetary travel.
Dunno who can seriously claim that they're a serious threat to the Imperium right now though. The Imperial worlds along the borders of the Empire maybe, sure, but they're not potentially existential threats like the Necrons, Tyranids, or perhaps even Chaos.
Wait until you see our dreadsuit with our crisis cannon and crisis fists and crisis charge....etc.... The imperium will tremble from the tread of countless immortal firewarriors (GW has no idea where you silly people got that low lifespan thing from)..
Brother Coa wrote:Tau are quite powerful, but when it comes to the great scale of things - Imperium wins in every way.
Because it's no matter how much advanced technology you have, the share numbers of Imperial troops is quite enough to defeat them.
I would say that they are just a "blip". A new race invented only to draw more money from fans and to draw attention to Asian people.
I agree, look at WWII. The Russians steamrolled through the German lines because they were willing to take losses and throw themselves at the German guns.
(Nobody better start making this thread about Nazi's now!!!!!!!)
And then the Russians massive armies were defeated from within! When the ideology of freedom and better living conditions ran rampant through the Union!
The Tau present an ideological threat to the IoM.
They prove that humans and xenos can live in peace as equals with good standards of living. This alone swayed an entire gulf region and the world of Taros to their cause. Tau as an ideology pose a larger threat to the IoM than anything excluding Chaos. If the Squats join them, then we can expect that going forward Tau are going to be a major contender on not just a political front, but also a growing military front. Squats posses to my knowledge FTL on par with the IoM, that knowledge would turn the Tau into more than a harmless blip imo.
While the IoM could muster a force to crush anyone of it's many threats, they seldom do more than dispatch task forces to deal with things. In the case of the Tau, one such force was stalled and recalled. The next incursion saw a Forgeworld's mineral source stolen by Tau forces being supported by the planets human population.
If more conflicts begin going the route of Taros, the IoM may have a bigger problem on their hands than they currently do. Especially if Squat tech meets Tau tech.
Brother Coa wrote:Tau are quite powerful, but when it comes to the great scale of things - Imperium wins in every way.
Because it's no matter how much advanced technology you have, the share numbers of Imperial troops is quite enough to defeat them.
I would say that they are just a "blip". A new race invented only to draw more money from fans and to draw attention to Asian people.
I agree, look at WWII. The Russians steamrolled through the German lines because they were willing to take losses and throw themselves at the German guns.
(Nobody better start making this thread about Nazi's now!!!!!!!)
And then the Russians massive armies were defeated from within! When the ideology of freedom and better living conditions ran rampant through the Union!
The Tau present an ideological threat to the IoM.
They prove that humans and xenos can live in peace as equals with good standards of living. This alone swayed an entire gulf region and the world of Taros to their cause. Tau as an ideology pose a larger threat to the IoM than anything excluding Chaos. If the Squats join them, then we can expect that going forward Tau are going to be a major contender on not just a political front, but also a growing military front. Squats posses to my knowledge FTL on par with the IoM, that knowledge would turn the Tau into more than a harmless blip imo.
While the IoM could muster a force to crush anyone of it's many threats, they seldom do more than dispatch task forces to deal with things. In the case of the Tau, one such force was stalled and recalled. The next incursion saw a Forgeworld's mineral source stolen by Tau forces being supported by the planets human population.
If more conflicts begin going the route of Taros, the IoM may have a bigger problem on their hands than they currently do. Especially if Squat tech meets Tau tech.
THe closer you get to the center of the Imperium the more fiercely loyal humans will be. Not to mention if the Inquisition gets annoyed by these traitors they will see it like a chaos infestation and send some virus bombs and cyclone torpedoes at them.
I agree that Tau aren't a threat now, but in say, 2000 years, they will be a pretty big problem. A major offensive against them crushed, they advance in tech extremely fast compared to the IoM. It isn't the Tau themselves, but the whole Empire. Their ideas of freedom, peace and harmony (admittedly being gained through war) attract many other alien empires who join them, not metioning Humans. So I reckon that they are roughly placed here: Chaos, Orks, 'Nids, 'Crons, Tau Empire
The Tau are, at least on the fringe and for now, a possible ideological threat to the IoM, but that threat won't last.
Let enough worlds leave the IoM for the Tau Empire, and the Inquisition's response will be to declare those worlds Hereticus Extremiis, and enact Exterminatus upon them.
Witnessing the destruction of entire worlds as every breathing thing on the planet is consumed by fire, devoured by viruses or, if the world is mineral rich, simply turning the planet into an asteroid field, will seriously hamper Tau expansion into other Imperial regions, as the populace of those worlds will, understandably, fear the same thing happening to them, and would not even entertain the thought of aiding a xeno seditionist.
winnertakesall wrote:I agree that Tau aren't a threat now, but in say, 2000 years, they will be a pretty big problem. A major offensive against them crushed, they advance in tech extremely fast compared to the IoM. It isn't the Tau themselves, but the whole Empire. Their ideas of freedom, peace and harmony (admittedly being gained through war) attract many other alien empires who join them, not metioning Humans. So I reckon that they are roughly placed here: Chaos, Orks, 'Nids, 'Crons, Tau Empire
EDIT: Fix'd typos
Thats the thing, they DONT advance extremely fast. While in the warp many more years passed then what we experienced in real-space.
They're just tiny...but with the new codex, along with renamed squats, a vehicle with FOUR railguns and an array of other weapons, im sure they'll get a big cheesy expansion and become threating in the fluff and on the tabletop.
But, if Imperial Commanders learn from that one Catachan Commander "OH come on over we'll sign a peace treaty and have cupcakes and tea and stuff..." and then the Tau go, and get massacred, they should be forever insignificant .
undivided wrote:Their insignificance in the grand scheme of things is the only thing that's keeping them alive.
And ultimately i believe that to be the case. The Tau aren't a significant threat to the IoM or any other race in the galaxy. The Tau haven't advanced into any 'deep' IoM regions, nor have they faced the full force of the IoM's military force* and instead have faced seemingly minor human opposition. As such, the Imperium hasn't done anything about the Tau and they likely won't unless they start making a name for themselves.
However, Tau growth is a double edged sword; if they get bigger then this will not go unnoticed and would likely attract the attention of those more powerful than them, causing them to warrant a large-scale attack from humanity, to wander into the path of a Waaagh or Hive Fleet or to actually attract the predations of Chaos. As I said, I don't believe the Tau can - nor have shown their ability to - stand up to these forces in a longitudinal manner; the Tau's current battles appear to have largely been a case of a stalemate, which unlike the IoM, Nids or Orks, the Tau can't afford due to their relative lack of size.
The Tau are expanding, but when they get bigger they'll attract more attention and then they will really be tested and drawn into a conflict I don't believe they could win**.
Therefore, IMHO the Tau would need to time any expansion very well and have a bit of luck on their side. For example, when the next Black Crusade or Hive Fleet hits, the IoM could be stretched too thin to be able to stop the Tau advance, therefore allowing the Tau to advance unmolested whilst they focus on a more sigificant threat. If the IoM survives this other threat and then pays attention to the Tau, then things could be getting messy (see **).
As it stands however, IMHO the Tau are a minor threat to the IoM and other races and they are naive of the galaxy, having little experience with both Chaos and Necrons (the latter of whom they once welcomed as saviours) and therefore pose little threat to anyone; causing no-one to pay attention to them; allowing them to survive.
That's what I believe at the very least.
*I'm not saying the IoM is the be all and end all, but ultimately the Tau doesn't have the depth and numbers to stand up to the Imperium.
**However, when such a conflict emerges, it will be an eternal stalemate within the fluff as the timeline won't be getting advanced and more people would start debates like this.
On a day to day basis, I'd guess the main threats the IoM has to combat are the Orks and traitors. Chaos usually takes the form of comparatively small incursions held off at Cadia and mopped up by the Grey Knights. Tyranids and Necrons are huge, but have not yet fully emerged. Dark Eldar have no real effect on the over-all universe. Eldar could be a bigger threath but they manipulate the IoM to bear the brunt of their conflicts. They could likely bring the IoM to its knees but wouldn't because it would have a bad effect on them. Tau are not emerging, they aren't large or numerous, and they have no where near the potential power like the Eldar right now. That said IF they continue expanding and advancing at the same rate then they might pose a threat in the future, but they will be a different enemy compared to any the IoM has faced before. It will be Empire versus Empire, not the IoM fighting off invaders.
To become an actual player in the Universe the Tau need to do several things:
Solve their FTL crisis. Expanding beyond a few systems will be impossible without it.
Become more Militarised. They have the advanced technology at an infantry and almost at a vehicular level but they need it on a fleet and air level, and they need large mechanized capability to combat titans. They also need large scale deployment of troops. Being outnumbered by races as advanced or even more so than them on a regular basis is not good enough.
Find a way of creating a loyal command base that doesn't rely on the Ethereals. Rebellions and dissent will be inevitable without regular Ethereal presence and its unlikely they can get enough of them to cover every world the Tau would want to conquer if they ever get to that point.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
And then the Russians massive armies were defeated from within! When the ideology of freedom and better living conditions ran rampant through the Union!
The USSR broke up because of Gorbachov and Boris who wan't his own peace of land to rule ( the grater good ). Same happened here on Balkan, only LOT messier.
The Tau present an ideological threat to the IoM.
The Tau present ideological threat to the Imperium in the same way our war-gaming religion is posing threat to Christianity.
They prove that humans and xenos can live in peace as equals with good standards of living. This alone swayed an entire gulf region and the world of Taros to their cause. Tau as an ideology pose a larger threat to the IoM than anything excluding Chaos. If the Squats join them, then we can expect that going forward Tau are going to be a major contender on not just a political front, but also a growing military front. Squats posses to my knowledge FTL on par with the IoM, that knowledge would turn the Tau into more than a harmless blip imo.
You are forgetting that aliens have been hunting Humans since they have gone from Terra and colonize stars. That's 30.000 years of xenofobia - a great obstacle to the Tau grater good. And Taros have joined Tau because their Governor gain a planet of his own and he is not more paying tax to the Terra. And who are Squats? A strange man from GW tells me that they never existed...
While the IoM could muster a force to crush anyone of it's many threats, they seldom do more than dispatch task forces to deal with things. In the case of the Tau, one such force was stalled and recalled. The next incursion saw a Forgeworld's mineral source stolen by Tau forces being supported by the planets human population.
If more conflicts begin going the route of Taros, the IoM may have a bigger problem on their hands than they currently do. Especially if Squat tech meets Tau tech.
If Tau continues to harass Imperial worlds all they get will be Exterminatus upon their sept worlds. And we have all seen in Retribution how Exterminatus works.
AndrewC wrote:The biggest threat of the Tau to the Imperium is idealogical rather than martial.
"What you mean don't have to constantly build guns and kill you, we just live in peace?"
Okay I know thats not going to happen, but you get the idea.
Andrew
Actually, this is pretty true.
The Tau, in many ways, represent the ideal of empire the Emporer originally expressed (neat, orderly, peaceful, strong government, working to take care of it's citizens, etc).
The Tau are not insignifigant, precisely due to their size (makes them underestimated), their technology (well in advance of the imperium), and their ideology. They engendered a large crusade against them precisely because of their ideology. They then ground that crusade to a stalemate that a hive fleet caused a total withdrawl of.
They will be left alone far to much due to their size. However, unlike many other races they innovate, expand, and look towards the future. Their dynamic outlook will sway imperial worlds in a steady fashion. Other, smaller alien races will ally with them out of sheer necessity, and by the time enough resources can be devoted it will be to late.
Not saying they'll beat the Imperium, but I hardly think they'll be rubbed out and they are dangerous because of what they represent. The lion is big and fearsome, but the Tse Tse makes it look like a pathetic chump in the kills department.
AndrewC wrote:The biggest threat of the Tau to the Imperium is idealogical rather than martial.
"What you mean don't have to constantly build guns and kill you, we just live in peace?"
Okay I know thats not going to happen, but you get the idea.
Andrew
Actually, this is pretty true.
The Tau, in many ways, represent the ideal of empire the Emporer originally expressed (neat, orderly, peaceful, strong government, working to take care of it's citizens, etc).
The Tau are not insignifigant, precisely due to their size (makes them underestimated), their technology (well in advance of the imperium), and their ideology. They engendered a large crusade against them precisely because of their ideology. They then ground that crusade to a stalemate that a hive fleet caused a total withdrawl of.
They will be left alone far to much due to their size. However, unlike many other races they innovate, expand, and look towards the future. Their dynamic outlook will sway imperial worlds in a steady fashion. Other, smaller alien races will ally with them out of sheer necessity, and by the time enough resources can be devoted it will be to late.
Not saying they'll beat the Imperium, but I hardly think they'll be rubbed out and they are dangerous because of what they represent. The lion is big and fearsome, but the Tse Tse makes it look like a pathetic chump in the kills department.
The Imperium is corrupt and has harsh living conditions because of its size, it has MILLIONS of worlds. The Tau will realize their way of living is EXTREMELY inefficient when they begin to grow in size. Populations will begin to lose rights and pay and they will lose support for the greater good rather quickly.
Grakmar wrote:Tau are currently totally insignificant.
The only threat they pose to the IoM is the rapid rate of their technology advancing.
How it has been advancing is the big question. Were they helped along by the Eldar? Have they found an intact STC? Or, are they able to do this all on their own?
If they've been advanced with aid from the Eldar, they're not going to develop into much of a threat, as they're fairly close to the Eldar level of technology and won't be able to continue advancing.
If they have an intact STC or are really a species of amazing technical prowess, then their technological boom could continue for a millennium or more. At that point, they would be a very serious threat to anyone not working for the greater good.
I'm actually shocked to think someone has to be helping them. Their rate of technological advancement is about the same as ours in modern history has been (3000 years has advanced both us and them at a similar rate).
winnertakesall wrote:I agree that Tau aren't a threat now, but in say, 2000 years, they will be a pretty big problem. A major offensive against them crushed, they advance in tech extremely fast compared to the IoM. It isn't the Tau themselves, but the whole Empire. Their ideas of freedom, peace and harmony (admittedly being gained through war) attract many other alien empires who join them, not metioning Humans. So I reckon that they are roughly placed here: Chaos, Orks, 'Nids, 'Crons, Tau Empire
EDIT: Fix'd typos
Thats the thing, they DONT advance extremely fast. While in the warp many more years passed then what we experienced in real-space.
The IoM was block from sending more people to the T'au region because of a Warp Storm, not because T'au was stuck in a Warp Storm.
If I'm wrong, please correct/post a source that says otherwise
winnertakesall wrote:I agree that Tau aren't a threat now, but in say, 2000 years, they will be a pretty big problem. A major offensive against them crushed, they advance in tech extremely fast compared to the IoM. It isn't the Tau themselves, but the whole Empire. Their ideas of freedom, peace and harmony (admittedly being gained through war) attract many other alien empires who join them, not metioning Humans. So I reckon that they are roughly placed here: Chaos, Orks, 'Nids, 'Crons, Tau Empire
EDIT: Fix'd typos
Thats the thing, they DONT advance extremely fast. While in the warp many more years passed then what we experienced in real-space.
The IoM was block from sending more people to the T'au region because of a Warp Storm, not because T'au was stuck in a Warp Storm.
If I'm wrong, please correct/post a source that says otherwise
I have heard on multiple occasions that Tau space was surrounded by a warp storm. This would have adverse effects on the time flow on the tau reality.
Currently the Tau seem to be a regional power, large enough to defend their space (200/300 systems or something around that number?) against all but the largest of crusades but not dangerous enough to warrant an effort of such size. There seem to be other alien empires of comparable size and importance if my memory works right.
Just wanted to point out that the Crusade was a measly 2 regiments, about 40-60 marines and 3 titans. Sounds more like a minor garrison then a crusade to wipe out a Xenos infestation. And the IoM was winning, even when it reached the Sept world. And the crusade was called off because the IoM realized that the Tau where an insignificant threat compared to the 'nids. Also the IoM has 40+ Thousand years worth of military experience to call upon, If there is one thing humans seem to know how to do, its kill stuff. .
Then you compare the range of weapons in the codexes to get a rough feel on how it would translate into the fluff, and something shocking comes out. The Guard OUT RANGE the Tau, when it comes to heavy weapons, and Artillery. Which you may think, "But caboose, the tau will just be more mobile, doing hit and run, negate that range advantage." Sure, but if they want to hold a world, you have to fight, and when they do commit to a battle, the sheer amount of artillery, and HW, will overwhelm them, in addition to the fact that if the HW are autocannons, which are a dime a dozen on the codex, the tau will have no way of returning fire, except through the hammerhead rail gun or ion cannon. Now this is the shooting part, the part where Tau excel. Count in the various marines that will join in, and the Tau do not stand a chance against a full scale IoM invasion.
To be fair, I like the Tau, well except for the anime feel, and the mechs,... erm... I like their infantry weapons, and their common place carapace armor. But in the end, I'll believe that their lack of experience is really going to hurt them. But if they do survive the Nidocalypse, then they might be a threat to the IoM in about 10000 years. But i doubt the fluff will advance at all anytime soon, so we will be stuck here debating which faction is better.
What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
There were forces from what, three or four other Space Marine Chapters and two Imperial Regiments there also, right? That's not really something to huff at. Plus, it was a stalemate. Both sides were putting up a great fight
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again: The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
There were forces from what, three or four other Space Marine Chapters and two Imperial Regiments there also, right? That's not really something to huff at. Plus, it was a stalemate. Both sides were putting up a great fight
The Tau will get their faces kicked in if a large Tyranid fleet invades their space. The Tau tactics are to defend until taking a good amount of loss then leave. Then return to orbital bombard and take the planet back. If they retreat on a full scale tyranid invasion they will have nothing to return to.
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
Yeah, even a company of marines took out at least a few hundred tau. Yeah the Tau really don't know that they suck, alot. Because they are facing a foe they think is week, they believe the imperium is big but not that big. They believe they are winning. but in fact they are just spelling their death wish.
The crusade I agree with it was a joke.
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
Yeah, even a company of marines took out at least a few hundred tau. Yeah the Tau really don't know that they suck, alot. Because they are facing a foe they think is week, they believe the imperium is big but not that big. They believe they are winning. but in fact they are just spelling their death wish.
The crusade I agree with it was a joke.
If its not able to roll over the small Tau Empire its a joke haha. (By Imperium standards)
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
There were forces from what, three or four other Space Marine Chapters and two Imperial Regiments there also, right? That's not really something to huff at. Plus, it was a stalemate. Both sides were putting up a great fight
The Tau were getting their faces kicked in by forces provided by 5 Space Marine Chapters(of which, the Subjugators were the 'largest contributor'. Think about that for a moment...) and two Imperial Guard Regiments.
It wasn't until the Tau diverted, as the Tau Empire Codex puts it, the full might of the Tau military to Dal'yth(a heavily populated Tau world that had a decent sized defensive force to begin with, along with orbital defense platforms) that they were able to stalemate the 'Crusade'.
To put it bluntly:
If Hive Fleet Behemoth hadn't shown up, we would have seen more Imperial forces pulled into the 'Crusade'.
The two Guard Regiments(Brimlock Dragoons) that were present were new founded regiments intended to be 'tested in the fires of righteousness' by purging the Tau influence on border worlds--the Fire Warriors that they faced, however, were fresh from a campaign of fighting Orks.
There's no contest that the Tau, who were using some 6-8k Fire Warriors(that's not counting the 16-20k Kroot auxiliaries that were likely employed), would win in a fight against some 50-60 Marines, tops, and two Guard Light Infantry Regiments.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote:
Yeah, even a company of marines took out at least a few hundred tau. Yeah the Tau really don't know that they suck, alot. Because they are facing a foe they think is week, they believe the imperium is big but not that big. They believe they are winning. but in fact they are just spelling their death wish.
The crusade I agree with it was a joke.
Through the entire campaign there was never "a company of Marines" in the entire theater of war.
And even that absurdly low amount of Marines required the Tau to reshuffle entire Hunter Cadres to deal with. Forces were pulled from the frontline to provide HQ security, etc.
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
Yeah, even a company of marines took out at least a few hundred tau. Yeah the Tau really don't know that they suck, alot. Because they are facing a foe they think is week, they believe the imperium is big but not that big. They believe they are winning. but in fact they are just spelling their death wish.
The crusade I agree with it was a joke.
If its not able to roll over the small Tau Empire its a joke haha. (By Imperium standards)
It is a joke. Sabbot world crusades had hundreds of regiments. Lord Solar Machinius had HUNDREDS of Regiments. granted these are major crusades. The joke is that the imperium sent 2 regiments, against an entire "empire" and it was a stalemate. If they had sent 3 regiments...
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
Yeah, even a company of marines took out at least a few hundred tau. Yeah the Tau really don't know that they suck, alot. Because they are facing a foe they think is week, they believe the imperium is big but not that big. They believe they are winning. but in fact they are just spelling their death wish.
The crusade I agree with it was a joke.
If its not able to roll over the small Tau Empire its a joke haha. (By Imperium standards)
It is a joke. Sabbot world crusades had hundreds of regiments. Lord Solar Machinius had HUNDREDS of Regiments. granted these are major crusades. The joke is that the imperium sent 2 regiments, against an entire "empire" and it was a stalemate. If they had sent 3 regiments...
I admit defeat...it appears the Tau are a bunch of push-overs
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
Yeah, even a company of marines took out at least a few hundred tau. Yeah the Tau really don't know that they suck, alot. Because they are facing a foe they think is week, they believe the imperium is big but not that big. They believe they are winning. but in fact they are just spelling their death wish.
The crusade I agree with it was a joke.
If its not able to roll over the small Tau Empire its a joke haha. (By Imperium standards)
It is a joke. Sabbot world crusades had hundreds of regiments. Lord Solar Machinius had HUNDREDS of Regiments. granted these are major crusades. The joke is that the imperium sent 2 regiments, against an entire "empire" and it was a stalemate. If they had sent 3 regiments...
I admit defeat...it appears the Tau are a bunch of push-overs
No not push overs just extremely outnumbered. Look at the planets. 16 vs millions...
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
There were forces from what, three or four other Space Marine Chapters and two Imperial Regiments there also, right? That's not really something to huff at. Plus, it was a stalemate. Both sides were putting up a great fight
The Tau were getting their faces kicked in by forces provided by 5 Space Marine Chapters(of which, the Subjugators were the 'largest contributor'. Think about that for a moment...) and two Imperial Guard Regiments.
It wasn't until the Tau diverted, as the Tau Empire Codex puts it, the full might of the Tau military to Dal'yth(a heavily populated Tau world that had a decent sized defensive force to begin with, along with orbital defense platforms) that they were able to stalemate the 'Crusade'.
To put it bluntly:
If Hive Fleet Behemoth hadn't shown up, we would have seen more Imperial forces pulled into the 'Crusade'.
The two Guard Regiments(Brimlock Dragoons) that were present were new founded regiments intended to be 'tested in the fires of righteousness' by purging the Tau influence on border worlds--the Fire Warriors that they faced, however, were fresh from a campaign of fighting Orks.
There's no contest that the Tau, who were using some 6-8k Fire Warriors(that's not counting the 16-20k Kroot auxiliaries that were likely employed), would win in a fight against some 50-60 Marines, tops, and two Guard Light Infantry Regiments.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote:
Yeah, even a company of marines took out at least a few hundred tau. Yeah the Tau really don't know that they suck, alot. Because they are facing a foe they think is week, they believe the imperium is big but not that big. They believe they are winning. but in fact they are just spelling their death wish.
The crusade I agree with it was a joke.
Through the entire campaign there was never "a company of Marines" in the entire theater of war.
And even that absurdly low amount of Marines required the Tau to reshuffle entire Hunter Cadres to deal with. Forces were pulled from the frontline to provide HQ security, etc.
Remember Cato Scarius he had an entire chapter of marines basically slaughter the tau,the tau didn't know there were so many Astrates in the gaxaly and didn't expect to see a freaking armada decimate their forces. then he left to fight the hive fleets.
Asherian Command wrote:
Remember Cato Scarius he had an entire chapter of marines basically slaughter the tau,the tau didn't know there were so many Astrates in the gaxaly and didn't expect to see a freaking armada decimate their forces. then he left to fight the hive fleets.
I have no clue where you're getting these numbers from. Seriously.
The closest I can find is a reference to Sicarius 'leading a Crusade consisting of forces from 30 Chapters'.
Just so we have the numbers clear:
A 'Chapter' is 1000 Marines.
A 'Company' is 100 marines.
There are 10 Companies in a Chapter. Very rarely are entire Companies deployed all at once by the various Codex Chapters.
You also just can't really get a 'Chapter worth' of Marines from 30 Chapters.
Kanluwen wrote:What's even funnier about the Damocles Gulf "Crusade"?
The Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book has a figure of an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter that donated a 'hefty amount of forces' to the Crusade, 'The Subjugators' Chapter.
Do you want to know how much they contributed?
Spoiler:
A squad of Marines and several armored vehicles, namely a Razorback and a few Land Speeders.
That is the kind of contribution the Damocles Crusade had from the Astartes.
I say it once, I say it again:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a joke.
Yeah, even a company of marines took out at least a few hundred tau. Yeah the Tau really don't know that they suck, alot. Because they are facing a foe they think is week, they believe the imperium is big but not that big. They believe they are winning. but in fact they are just spelling their death wish.
The crusade I agree with it was a joke.
If its not able to roll over the small Tau Empire its a joke haha. (By Imperium standards)
It is a joke. Sabbot world crusades had hundreds of regiments. Lord Solar Machinius had HUNDREDS of Regiments. granted these are major crusades. The joke is that the imperium sent 2 regiments, against an entire "empire" and it was a stalemate. If they had sent 3 regiments...
No argument from me, Tau are at the bottom of my list for favorite armies, tied with necrons. Im for the Imperium all the way in this debate.
Which is a significant contribution to the war effort, make no mistake!
My previous post simply illustrates how one can pull an entire SM Chapter together from the "donations" from a given number of other Chapters. Sure, they will not be as effective or efficient as an entire, self-contained Chapter would be (what with doctrinal differences, ancient rivalries, unfamiliarity with Chapter-based tactical plans and war-fighting philosophies and such)... but, still, 1000 SMs is a devastating force to deploy on a warzone target.
Entire worlds fall to far fewer Marines, and pulling 1000 of these guys together out of 30 Chapters is not an impossible feat, especially if the will to fight these xenos is especially present in those Chapters.
The biggest joke is that after that pint sized Crusade left, the Imperium left loyal men to die. Guardsmen that depended on their leaders were left to fend for themselves against an enemy that the withdrawing Crusade knew, would destroy them.
They withdrew and everyone who had been left to secure the Gulf was abandon to the mercy of xenos.
The reason Tau will never be wiped out, is because those Soldiers weren't slaughtered, they were offered a new life in the Tau Empire.
For laying down their arms in peace and accepting the greater good, they were allowed to worship the Emperor and have new lives, despite the HORRIBLE attrocites they had helped commit. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, both Tau and Human cleansed in the Damocles Gulf. Swept under the rug and forgiven, that kind of ideology will be widely accepted within even the more zealous imperial communites.
Being merciful might not sway an Ork, but it will certainly win humans to the cause. In time, many other races will stand with the Tau. Bringing new ideas and technology with them. The IoM can have whatever PR they want, the Tau Empire is only growing and their ideology is spreading.
Also, the Tau defeated an enemy at Taros larger than the one at Dal'yth, are we to assume the Entire Tau military was sent? Fluff in context, The full military might of the Tau would mean the Tau navy would of stopped the attack from even occuring. The Crusade caught the Tau by suprise, when they ran into a sept world they got stopped dead in their tracks. Aun'va has one thousand ships named after his deeds, do you think a dozen Imperial vessels could fend off that many ships? If so, goggles off.
Correct me if I'm wrong but During the 13th black crusade Tau did expand again. Didn't seem like they gave up after democules crusade. the biggest threat tau pose in my opinion would be acceptance of other races. you don't just fight tau you fight serveral species of dangerous sentiant species.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:The biggest joke is that after that pint sized Crusade left, the Imperium left loyal men to die. Guardsmen that depended on their leaders were left to fend for themselves against an enemy that the withdrawing Crusade knew, would destroy them.
They withdrew and everyone who had been left to secure the Gulf was abandon to the mercy of xenos.
Cite it. Go on, I'll wait.
So far, the only thing I've found that was "left to secure the Gulf" was PDF and whatever equipment the Guard couldn't bring with them.
The reason Tau will never be wiped out, is because those Soldiers weren't slaughtered, they were offered a new life in the Tau Empire.
Then why aren't the Tau fielding an entire Elysian Drop Regiment from the Taros campaign?
Oh. Right. Because 'they were offered a new life in the Tau Empire'...and they refused it. They're 'unaccounted for' at the moment, with some information pointing towards them being forced labor for the Tarosian mines and some more information pointing towards a large quantity of the prisoners having been fed to the Kroot.
So a slow death through inhumanly torturous work conditions(say what you want about the Imperium: the workers at those mines were Ogryn or Servitors. Not colonists)...or fed to the Kroot. Real great guys, those Tau are.
For laying down their arms in peace and accepting the greater good, they were allowed to worship the Emperor and have new lives, despite the HORRIBLE attrocites they had helped commit. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, both Tau and Human cleansed in the Damocles Gulf. Swept under the rug and forgiven, that kind of ideology will be widely accepted within even the more zealous imperial communites.
And anyone who even dares to think "Maybe we shouldn't have allied with the Tau" vanishes into reeducation centers maintained by the Ethereals.
The Tau are far from the 'good guys' you like to make them out to be. The Deathwatch RPG(which is 100% canon, and is supervised stringently) has made mention of them maintaining genetic research facilities in the colonies that they've overrun, where they're tampering with various biological agents to try to 'pacify' the human colonists.
Being merciful might not sway an Ork, but it will certainly win humans to the cause. In time, many other races will stand with the Tau. Bringing new ideas and technology with them. The IoM can have whatever PR they want, the Tau Empire is only growing and their ideology is spreading.
The Tau Empire's ideology is spreading, sure.
Unfortunately, the only ears listening are the ones that are being rounded up and burned by the Inquisition.
Also, the Tau defeated an enemy at Taros larger than the one at Dal'yth, are we to assume the Entire Tau military was sent?
And the Tau numbers on Taros are still unknown. So far, we've got around 6k-8k Fire Warriors on the ground(that's not counting the Air Caste support or Battlesuits, of which they were unconfirmed numbers to begin with), with 16k+ Kroot(number was guesstimated by Jervis/Warwick Kinrade in a Q&A about the Taros campaign), and about 8k traitor PDF who were in full control of planetary defenses for the opening of the campaign.
Man, those poor Tau never stood a ch...wait, what? That's more Kroot than the Guard sent for the entire campaign, of which two regiments never arrived? You're kidding me right?!
Fluff in context, The full military might of the Tau would mean the Tau navy would of stopped the attack from even occuring.
Yeahh, I'm sure the "Tau navy would have stopped the attack from even occurring".
I mean they did such a great job stopping a few Strike Cruisers, a Navy Cruiser, some armed transports, and an escort carrier.
Let's not forget that the area around Dal'yth is supposed to actually be heavily patrolled by the Tau Navy.
And that every planet the Tau possess, one of the first things they do is lock a network of defensive orbital platforms bristling with railguns, ion cannons, etc around the planet.
Clearly, they were "undefended worlds".
The Crusade caught the Tau by surprise, when they ran into a sept world they got stopped dead in their tracks.
So wait the "Crusade" can catch the Tau by surprise but if the Imperium gets caught by surprise, the Tau were "master strategists"?
Make up your mind. They're either tactical geniuses or they're idiots. You don't get to have it both ways.
And it's not like the Crusade "caught the Tau by surprise". They rolled over 13 Tau worlds, all with extensive communication networks, shipping industries, etc before they rolled up on Dal'yth.
Aun'va has one thousand ships named in for his deeds, do you think a dozen Imperial vessels could fend off that many ships? If so, goggles off.
So they're throwing their entire fleet against a dozen Imperial vessels?
Wow. Tau sure have adopted the meat grinder tactics pretty fast, I see.
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, both Tau and Human cleansed in the Damocles Gulf. Swept under the rug and forgiven, that kind of ideology will be widely accepted within even the more zealous imperial communites.
You say it like its a bad thing. What part about "Purge the Alien/Heretic" did you miss?
The Tau Codex page 11 states (i'm paraphrasing due to copyright) Imperiaum came in, pushed back the Tau, lost a "great" amount of Troops. Stalemate, and it was because that they had more important thing to do, like fighting against the 'nidocalypse, that they withdrew.
Main rule book. The Cytherain Annexation. Even after fighting and losing the battle, the catachan survivors gladly accepted the greater good... ... by taking up a long protracted Guerrilla war with no real hope of reinforcements. Thats right, the Humans would rather fight a hopeless war for the Emperor, then live as members of the Tau Empire. Oh, and apparently Firewarriors were handed there behinds to them, by guys with crappy guns, when they tried to root them out of the jungles.
Now back to earlier posts. The IG out ranges the Tau in Support weaponry and Artillery. Just to remind you beef. Which means that when the Tau do commit to battle, they have to actullay endure enemy fire just to get in range to shoot back. And lets not forget the greatest weapon the Guard has, after Courage, MANPOWER, if the 'nids hadnt appeared the Guard could have just call for reinforcements, but they didn't due to priorities. You tend to ignore the termites while there is a lion in your backyard. For that is really all the Tau are, pests to the Greater IoM. Mainly due to their small size, and lack of long range warp travel.
Your argument that the Tau are militarily superior is flawed. The Tau are attacking weakened PDF garrisons, while the real warriors of the Imperium are busy elsewhere. And as the crusade demonstrates, 2 regiments. 3 titans, and 40-60 Marines managed to invade all the way to a major phase one sept world. Then the tau, after months of fighting, the best the Tau could do is make it a stalemate. A stalemate, after having met "The full might of the Tau military." Tau Codex pg 14 Granted the marines grew to respect the skill of the warriors, if their where more then 2 regiments, the tau would have collapsed. [speculation]
Also the humans that joined the Tau were human deserters and renegades, Tau codex pg 8. Not people "abandoned" to the xenos.
Edit: As for the vessels it doesn't say Capital Ships, it says vessels, which could range from fighter and cutters, on up to capital ships. So don't assume its all capital ships.
Looking at BFG, Tau ships are vastly underequipped when compared to imperial vessels. The titans would need large cruisers to carry them, which alone are bristling with enough weaponry to blast holes in just about anything, then the marine vessels which are even better, and then the smaller vseels like frigates to accompany the fleet and the fighters...
The Tau were so unprepared and underprepared for space conflicts that they had to duct tape some heavy duty railguns to their fighters in order to do anything.
Also isn't there something in the fluff about how the Ethereal are latent psykers who mind control the tau, or use pheromones, and that is why commander farsight broke away? I'm not sure so dont quote me on this.
xXSir MontyXx wrote:No argument from me, Tau are at the bottom of my list for favorite armies, tied with necrons. Im for the Imperium all the way in this debate.
So, you are completely biased and this isn't really to be a discussion? This "small imperial force and whooping them good because they were wimpy xenos" is bumpkiss.
Right from the codex it clearly says the humans paid dearly to push them back onto a neutral front and had completely lost all momentum. The Imperium learned nothing from the fight (because they don't prize learning from anything), while the Tau learned a lot. The 'Imperium Juggernaut' only won any victories against small, poorly manned and defended outposts (again right from the Tau codex). They didn't slaughter anything until they got bored and left for bigger fish as some here are implying.
The following battle with the Imperium has become known as the Koloth Gorge Massacre. Where the entire Imperial force sent to relieve a planet was completely wiped out to a man with few to no Tau casualties.
Shadowsun then promptly gutted at least moderately well defended systems after breaking through the border worlds that had little defense.
Look, I'll admit they aren't wiping out the Imperium any time soon. Shear numbers wins. If the Imperium could actually unite enough to want to crush them, they could. It would be a worthless victory though. Far to many key units would be expended to make it worth while with bigger threats on the horrizon. Our own history is a veritible gold mine of stories of the small massively outnumbered armies winning out or making the enemy's victory pyrrhic. Not to mention raw ideology and belief in winning plays one of the biggest roles in winning a war or battle. Which the Tau has on the Imperium in spades.
The Imperium is doomed to eventually break apart (heck, very solid arguments can be made it's already fallen a few times, as what it is now is nothing like it was in the begining or even envisoned to be, or even was at various points in it's history). Does that mean the end of mankind? No, I hardly think so.
The Imperium does not innovate, does not understand technology, is constantly at war with itself, is overly arrogant and bloated by it's own belief (more the a few Astartes chapters have been completely destroyed by non super duper chaos/tyranid/other mega baddies). I'm a pretty staunch pro-human guy in anything sci-fi, 40k included. However the Tau are a real and credible threat, down the road. Because they will be ignored, their weapons are superior even today, they do innovate, they do allow for people to maintain and retain their own belief structures (as long as they fall in with the greater good)...
Man will survive, and ultimately I'd be surprised if the Tau won the whole thing. I don't care for their ideology, I'm not an anime freak, and I really only play them as a way to field 'mobile infantry' in a 40k setting.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Also isn't there something in the fluff about how the Ethereal are latent psykers who mind control the tau, or use pheromones, and that is why commander farsight broke away? I'm not sure so dont quote me on this.
The 4th ed. codex hints at this. Remember though, fluff is suppose to be from an imperial viewpoint and it is always up to the player to draw their own conclusions.
Might was well put up the apposing veiwpoint. A lot of stuff to go through in a fast moving thread, so I'll start a bullet list with some of the things that really grind my gears.
1.deserters of the imperium
The majority of the taros mining crews that joined the tau empire were in fact humans. It's rather obviously stated in the imperial armor as such. especially when you review the rules.
oh and the tau auxiliary, which aren't used because of that little issue of being six points each...no special weapons...and every single imperium of man player gaining preferred enemy (you)...or furious charge, I can never remember.
2.air force
I'd just like to say, the titans were withdrawn from taros after one was destroyed by a tau tigershark's rail cannons. the tau air force would be a very serious matter, if it wasn't all functionally ground attack craft. of varying effectiveness with no truly effective air-fighting capability
3. tau fleet and fringe planets
the tau had functionality no real military fleet until taros, they expected to just put up with some pirates and raiders occasionally but never anything that would come
even close an imperial warship. as such the "lightly defended planets". would be..."lightly defended planets." the IoM would surround these planets then lay siege to isolated outposts with lance and conventional weapons batteries that depending on your fluff may or may not destroy continents.
the only thing that was half a threat to these ships were the "hero class" a rushed battleship designed just to give them something to fight back with, and they only had a handful of ships large enough or useful enough to give them the slightest chance of actually accomplishing anything in a fleet action. it wasn't until taros that they had a fleet that could fight on reasonable grounds.
4. deathwatch
sure, it's cannon and it's a great system. but everybody and their mother who have participated in it have killed at least a dozen demon princes and a few thousand tyranids. A score of marines in deathwatch is going to chew through anything less then cadia without a sweat.
Edit:Reread some of the thread, corrected some typos, not too well though out of a post I say. I react poorly in these situations
Amaya wrote:Right now Tau are insignificant. If they continue to improve their technology they could become a very serious threat within a few millenia.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Also the humans that joined the Tau were human deserters and renegades, Tau codex pg 8. Not people "abandoned" to the xenos.
And still Tau use them as expendable solders, not much difference in comparison to the Imperium. When they fight for the Imperium they fight for their own race, as Gue'vesa they are fighting for race that promises good but giving crap.
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xXSir MontyXx wrote:
The following battle with the Imperium has become known as the Koloth Gorge Massacre. Where the entire Imperial force sent to relieve a planet was completely wiped out to a man with few to no Tau casualties.
You mean when the Imperium send Captain Taelos to do the peace talks and the Tau attack him and his man? I to would suffer heavy losses if pinned down on open terrain by hundreds of enemies on their world...!? In addition, he was there to persuade the Tau to let Vostroyans retreat, Tau attack him and slaughter the Vostroyans. Man, how they where eager to talk later when Black Templars kick their asses
I feel this is a great read about the DGC and is well sourced at the end. It isn't biased and gives a fair account of the Crusade from interesting perspectives.
Tau are not easy to wage war against. It's easy to say they suck and lose, but their combat record shows the opposite. What can be sure is that the Tau underwent a strange learning curve fighting the IoM as did the Imperium. Saying the Tau are outranged in Fluff is silly. Skyrays, Broadsides, and Hammerheads, Crisis Suits all have exceptional range with the weapons they carry. The two forces are very similar in a lot of ways with technology and doctrine being the two most different factors.
Also, the old Chapter approved human Aux allowed the use of Cadian models to represent the captured remants of the DGC Kan. While the rules were thrown in the new Tau dex, it is in keeping with the local PDFs being wiped out due to being deemed heretical, along with the Governors for siding with the Tau Empire.
As for this whole Ethereals are evil thing, they give you an option to join the empire and live in peace. If you refuse you are a POW, if the war is over you are imprisoned. How is that unfair? No offense, but if you lost and didn't surrender you're still an enemy combatant, in war you dying isn't unjust.
Call Tau worthless all you want guys. Fact is, they aren't. Their ideology is amazing as proganda and their weapons are beyond what the bulk of the Imperium has. A team of broadsides can easily poke holes in a baneblade. A couple teams and you will have Baneblades popping wholesale. And what it takes to make a Baneblade vs a couple infantry in a battlesuit doesn't add up well for the Baneblade.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:I feel this is a great read about the DGC and is well sourced at the end. It isn't biased and gives a fair account of the Crusade from interesting perspectives.
Tau are not easy to wage war against. It's easy to say they suck and lose, but their combat record shows the opposite. What can be sure is that the Tau underwent a strange learning curve fighting the IoM as did the Imperium. Saying the Tau are outranged in Fluff is silly. Skyrays, Broadsides, and Hammerheads, Crisis Suits all have exceptional range with the weapons they carry. The two forces are very similar in a lot of ways with technology and doctrine being the two most different factors.
Stated as FACT by using the Tau and IG codexs. Most IG support weapons have 36-48 inch range. Tau weapons with the except of the rail guns, ion cannons and the missiles, and some kroot gun. They have a 30-36 inch cut off. As for the Long Range Artillery, the IG wins hands down, The Basilisks Have 1-36 inch direct fire and 36-240 indirect fire with barrage. The only tau equivalent is the missile with unlimited range. that doesnt have barrage if i recall correctly. [don't have access to friends codex]
Also, the old Chapter approved human Aux allowed the use of Cadian models to represent the captured remants of the DGC Kan. While the rules were thrown in the new Tau dex, it is in keeping with the local PDFs being wiped out due to being deemed heretical, along with the Governors for siding with the Tau Empire.
I was commenting on your comments that the IoM left a lot of forces behind in the DGC.
As for this whole Ethereals are evil thing, they give you an option to join the empire and live in peace. If you refuse you are a POW, if the war is over you are imprisoned. How is that unfair? No offense, but if you lost and didn't surrender you're still an enemy combatant, in war you dying isn't unjust.
There is hints that the Tau are somehow influenced by the Ethereals, either by mind control or pheromones. Which could explain how a very regid caste society manages to work together and advance in only 3000 years to the state they are now.
Call Tau worthless all you want guys. Fact is, they aren't. Their ideology is amazing as proganda and their weapons are beyond what the bulk of the Imperium has. A team of broadsides can easily poke holes in a baneblade. A couple teams and you will have Baneblades popping wholesale. And what it takes to make a Baneblade vs a couple infantry in a battlesuit doesn't add up well for the Baneblade.
Same could be said about Devestators armed with Lascannons. But I never said the Tau are worthless, just they would lose in a fight against the FULL might of the IoM.
Not saying anyone is a nazi but the Tau could be compared to Nazi Germany in WW2. They had superior leadership on average, and better training. IoM could be considered the Soviet Union, with varying degrees of leadership, but a whole lot more manpower, and better tanks. And the rest is history...
Now what your not considering is how the Space marines fight. Alot like the Tau, using precession strikes, while armored better then the Tau. Basically the Marines are the Rapier to the IG Hammer. Also remember Quantity is a Quality all of its own.
Edit: When i say support i mean Heavy Weapons, The Autocannon, Lascannon, and missile launchers have 48 inch. And Heavy Bolters Plama Cannons, and Multilasers have 36 inch. If a patrol of Firewarriors in a devilfish met a patrol of Guardsmen in a Chimera, the Chimera out ranges them. 36 ML and HB compared to 18 Burst cannon and the the fire warriors 30 inch pulse rifles [which cant be fired with out disembarking.] And even if they close the Chimer has a greater chance of glancing with its str6 ml then the str 5 bc. This assumes standard models with no upgrades. I give the edge to IG due to longer range and better str of the ML.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Tau are not easy to wage war against. It's easy to say they suck and lose, but their combat record shows the opposite. What can be sure is that the Tau underwent a strange learning curve fighting the IoM as did the Imperium. Saying the Tau are outranged in Fluff is silly. Skyrays, Broadsides, and Hammerheads, Crisis Suits all have exceptional range with the weapons they carry. The two forces are very similar in a lot of ways with technology and doctrine being the two most different factors.
We never said that they are weak, that they suck and lose. Tau are strong force when they have the formation and when they are flanking. But you said that in all open war Tau would defeat the Imperium, which is impossible. And you then stated that they could defeat EVERYONE else: Orks, Eldar, Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids... And that they can enter in the EoT and kill Chaos Gods... To you Tau looks like Chuck Norris clones than an alien race But in all seriousness, Tau cannot match the Imperium in any way - even in technology. And range fluff is right, just see Autocannon, Lasscannon and Plasmacannon. And Imperial main doctrone is both for melle and range combat ( Lasgun + bayonet or Bolter + power sword ).
Also, the old Chapter approved human Aux allowed the use of Cadian models to represent the captured remants of the DGC Kan. While the rules were thrown in the new Tau dex, it is in keeping with the local PDFs being wiped out due to being deemed heretical, along with the Governors for siding with the Tau Empire.
As for this whole Ethereals are evil thing, they give you an option to join the empire and live in peace. If you refuse you are a POW, if the war is over you are imprisoned. How is that unfair? No offense, but if you lost and didn't surrender you're still an enemy combatant, in war you dying isn't unjust.
Ah, just like in USSR: "We are all equal, we are an empire and live in peace". Then you state: "but can I go in America?" or "can I start private business?" and you get shot in the head. And we all see on Taros how unfair is Tau - they give you all the rock in the galaxy that you can mine. And shot you when you sit to rest for a minute. Don't be fooled BEaf, Tau are worst than the Imperium when it comes to ideology and methods of spreading it ( give POW to Kroot as food, pacifying Humans - even the Gue'vesa, taking over poorly dependable worlds etc...). Tau look more like the Borg than the Federation...
Call Tau worthless all you want guys. Fact is, they aren't. Their ideology is amazing as proganda and their weapons are beyond what the bulk of the Imperium has. A team of broadsides can easily poke holes in a baneblade. A couple teams and you will have Baneblades popping wholesale. And what it takes to make a Baneblade vs a couple infantry in a battlesuit doesn't add up well for the Baneblade.
One word: Terminators ( supermega armor + chainfist + assault bolter + thunder hammer + power shield + powerfist + assault cannon + teleport + 2+ armor save ).
And a few more: Nimbosa, Kronus, Kaurava, Targa, Zeist, Gravalax...
And 2 Guardsman with missile launcher can take down Hammerhead gunship in the same manner few battle suits can take down Baneblade. And tanks NEVER go into battle without infantry support. And Tau never face the full force of the Inquisition, Tau never faced Grey Knights, or Imperator Titan, or full might of the Imperial Guard ( Solar had thousands of Regiments under his command ). Or a full might of Black Templar Crusade force ( 3000 Astartes ), or a full Ork WARGHHHH ( like Imperium on Armageddon, or full Chaos attack ( like Black Crusade ), or full power of Tyranid attack ( Battle for Macragge ), or full Necron rising ( Damnos incident ). Or beeing in full out galactic civil war ( Horus Heresy ).
In comparison to the Imperium, Tau are just little kids playing with toys...
Considering tau are supposedly on their fourth sphere of expansion as of GW's latest tau related campaign, I'm sure that nimbossa is going to change hands in the next few years again anyways. but tau sure do love giving ground.
I want to see what the tau actually do to those humans in new fluff, beyond that totally out of character "GRIMDARK MODE+5" sterilizing the population kill their women burn their children BS. seems more then a bit of lazy writing to do this to the totally cooperative humans, who could become the tau empire's greatest resource, but allow the nissacar and others, who actively fought against the tau as an organised group, to grow and thrive in the tau empire at the same time..
Yeah and a Guardsmen with a missile launcher is a LOT cheaper then a crisis or broadside suit and a pilot. The money spent training him or her for the suit. The years it takes to actually become a crisis then broadside suit pilot. IoM can win a war of attrition, the Tau can't.
To become an actual player in the Universe the Tau need to do several things:
Solve their FTL crisis. Expanding beyond a few systems will be impossible without it.
Totally. They should borrow some technology from the Kroot or Demiurg.
iproxtaco wrote:Become more Militarised. They have the advanced technology at an infantry and almost at a vehicular level but they need it on a fleet and air level, and they need large mechanized capability to combat titans. They also need large scale deployment of troops. Being outnumbered by races as advanced or even more so than them on a regular basis is not good enough.
The Tau already have advanced fleet and air weapons. For example, the Manta is their answer to Titans.
The IoM outnumbers everyone and always will. The way for the Tau to beat this is to convert IoM worlds to their side.
iproxtaco wrote:Find a way of creating a loyal command base that doesn't rely on the Ethereals. Rebellions and dissent will be inevitable without regular Ethereal presence and its unlikely they can get enough of them to cover every world the Tau would want to conquer if they ever get to that point.
There's no reason to suppose that dissent will be inevitable without Ethereal presence. None of the allied races care about Ethereals anyway.
However all this is pointless since the timeline does not advance.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Tau are not easy to wage war against. It's easy to say they suck and lose, but their combat record shows the opposite. What can be sure is that the Tau underwent a strange learning curve fighting the IoM as did the Imperium. Saying the Tau are outranged in Fluff is silly. Skyrays, Broadsides, and Hammerheads, Crisis Suits all have exceptional range with the weapons they carry. The two forces are very similar in a lot of ways with technology and doctrine being the two most different factors.
We never said that they are weak, that they suck and lose. Tau are strong force when they have the formation and when they are flanking. But you said that in all open war Tau would defeat the Imperium, which is impossible. And you then stated that they could defeat EVERYONE else: Orks, Eldar, Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids... And that they can enter in the EoT and kill Chaos Gods... To you Tau looks like Chuck Norris clones than an alien race But in all seriousness, Tau cannot match the Imperium in any way - even in technology. And range fluff is right, just see Autocannon, Lasscannon and Plasmacannon. And Imperial main doctrone is both for melle and range combat ( Lasgun + bayonet or Bolter + power sword ).
Ah, just like in USSR: "We are all equal, we are an empire and live in peace". Then you state: "but can I go in America?" or "can I start private business?" and you get shot in the head. And we all see on Taros how unfair is Tau - they give you all the rock in the galaxy that you can mine. And shot you when you sit to rest for a minute. Don't be fooled BEaf, Tau are worst than the Imperium when it comes to ideology and methods of spreading it ( give POW to Kroot as food, pacifying Humans - even the Gue'vesa, taking over poorly dependable worlds etc...). Tau look more like the Borg than the Federation...
Call Tau worthless all you want guys. Fact is, they aren't. Their ideology is amazing as proganda and their weapons are beyond what the bulk of the Imperium has. A team of broadsides can easily poke holes in a baneblade. A couple teams and you will have Baneblades popping wholesale. And what it takes to make a Baneblade vs a couple infantry in a battlesuit doesn't add up well for the Baneblade.
One word: Terminators ( supermega armor + chainfist + assault bolter + thunder hammer + power shield + powerfist + assault cannon + teleport + 2+ armor save ).
And a few more: Nimbosa, Kronus, Kaurava, Targa, Zeist, Gravalax...
And 2 Guardsman with missile launcher can take down Hammerhead gunship in the same manner few battle suits can take down Baneblade. And tanks NEVER go into battle without infantry support. And Tau never face the full force of the Inquisition, Tau never faced Grey Knights, or Imperator Titan, or full might of the Imperial Guard ( Solar had thousands of Regiments under his command ). Or a full might of Black Templar Crusade force ( 3000 Astartes ), or a full Ork WARGHHHH ( like Imperium on Armageddon, or full Chaos attack ( like Black Crusade ), or full power of Tyranid attack ( Battle for Macragge ), or full Necron rising ( Damnos incident ). Or beeing in full out galactic civil war ( Horus Heresy ).
In comparison to the Imperium, Tau are just little kids playing with toys...
It's stated and clearly written in the codex and painfully explained in other sources that tau technology often matches and exceeds imperial design, and they don't really kill people for no reason, at least not yet. they are not a communist state and it's not a fascist dictatorship either. all the unreasonable decisions so far are made by either an ethereal or commander brightsword
the grey knights use aliens as their auxiliaries, considering mat ward sure they would love to have the tau join them
and fluff wise, I doubt the titan legos would ever risk another titan if it was anything less then an Imperator. the IG pretty much lost titan support on taros
On taros, tanks did go into battle without infantry support, it was the largest tank battle the tau ever got involved in too. I'm surprised you forgot.
but yes, they are small, and they are in a corner. so most of the threats you listed will never happen in the current state of the tau, because they are currently irrelevant to the grand scheme of things.
Yeah, Tau tech is better then the IoM in ways. The IoM has a brutal simplicity when it comes to tech. But the fact is that when it comes to heavy weapons the IoM has a significant edge range wise. And this isn't fluff. Its cold hard codex facts. I know the ranges don't translate very well, but its good enough to see what has a longer range.
Solve their FTL crisis. Expanding beyond a few systems will be impossible without it.
well, according the BFG they have FTL, "warp skimming". as I recall it's on average 1\5th the speed but more reliable for when you want to show up at a set place in a set time. which is how they even got to the third sphere of expansion anyways.
and I recall reading that the ion cannon is demiurg tech, but I can't cite it to save my life.
Raze wrote:
the grey knights use aliens as their auxiliaries, considering mat ward sure they would love to have the tau join them
That's the Deathwatch, and they are allies with Eldar, not Tau. Tau never meet Grey Knight, or at least they didn't leave long enought to tell about it...
but yes, they are small, and they are in a corner. so most of the threats you listed will never happen in the current state of the tau, because they are currently irrelevant to the grand scheme of things.
You just wait and see, when GW drop new codex where Tau are fighting 'nids, 'crons and Orks all together.
And you are right, you Tau are so small:
Raze wrote:
the grey knights use aliens as their auxiliaries, considering mat ward sure they would love to have the tau join them
That's the Deathwatch, and they are allies with Eldar, not Tau. Tau never meet Grey Knight, or at least they didn't leave long enought to tell about it...
*cough* space monkey *cough*
edit: actually, does anybody remember that stealth device the deathwatch use in the RPG book?, the one based off the tau stealth technology? sure is fun being a deathwatch tech-marine around them tau.
Shay Frymier wrote:Tau are so stupid and pitiful. IoM and space marines are amazingly beyond awesome. Oh and tau suck.
Am I doing this right? I just took a quick glace through the thread...
No you have to show it with Fluff, just like the rest of us DID.
Now go away Troll.
He is new and was warned by the mod's. Give him a break, but yeah just say something less "troll-like" next time.
Anyways, if the Tau were to maybe defeat a fully equipped and defended fortress world they would get my attention. Until then I am nowhere near believing that they are a threat to the Imperium.
There is the fact however that each Tau is equipped better than the average guardsman. This is true.... this id due however, to the fact that their forces are TONS smaller than the Imperium's. What is better equipped? A massive U.S. invasion force trained in basic hand to hand and shooting techniques, or a Special forces unit that is much smaller and doesnt take NEARLY as much money to equip with good equipment and the best training due to their small number? This is blatantly obvious when you observe the IG and Space Marines.
So, view the Tau as space marines and the Imperium as the IG in this situation. (I am not saying Tau are as good as space marines, just the size and equipment factor.)
BeefCakeSoup wrote:I feel this is a great read about the DGC and is well sourced at the end. It isn't biased and gives a fair account of the Crusade from interesting perspectives.
Tau are not easy to wage war against. It's easy to say they suck and lose, but their combat record shows the opposite. What can be sure is that the Tau underwent a strange learning curve fighting the IoM as did the Imperium. Saying the Tau are outranged in Fluff is silly. Skyrays, Broadsides, and Hammerheads, Crisis Suits all have exceptional range with the weapons they carry. The two forces are very similar in a lot of ways with technology and doctrine being the two most different factors.
Also, the old Chapter approved human Aux allowed the use of Cadian models to represent the captured remants of the DGC Kan. While the rules were thrown in the new Tau dex, it is in keeping with the local PDFs being wiped out due to being deemed heretical, along with the Governors for siding with the Tau Empire.
As for this whole Ethereals are evil thing, they give you an option to join the empire and live in peace. If you refuse you are a POW, if the war is over you are imprisoned. How is that unfair? No offense, but if you lost and didn't surrender you're still an enemy combatant, in war you dying isn't unjust.
Call Tau worthless all you want guys. Fact is, they aren't. Their ideology is amazing as proganda and their weapons are beyond what the bulk of the Imperium has. A team of broadsides can easily poke holes in a baneblade. A couple teams and you will have Baneblades popping wholesale. And what it takes to make a Baneblade vs a couple infantry in a battlesuit doesn't add up well for the Baneblade.
you keep forgeting their space craft suck. Serioiusly only 6 ships vs the entire Tau Defense fleets, WERE DECIMATED. By 6 ships, a Strike Vessel, a couple of escorts, A Battle Barge, A Cargo ship, and an Imperial Naval ship.
Sorry, but in the world of 40k Space Warfare controls the board not the ground support, the imperium decimates most of their enemies by beating the gak out of their forces before they even know it. Imperial Naval Warfare is shooting from like worlds away not the tau's up close and personnel. The Imperium is just ignoring the Tau because they literally have not ever faced a Full Space Marine Crusade. Hell They weren't able to stop a small one, that was a joke. The Imperium also has deployed Tau technology with their Deathwatch.
Just face it the Imperium would win in a Real stand-up fight.
Imperial battles are massive, the largest tau battle was the Zeist Campagin. Which they got owned in, by scarius and 30 chapters. The tau pissed off the Imperium by attacking a forge world, they arrived killed all the tau rinse repeat. They barely lost any naval ships. Read the Zeist Campaign.
You also can't forget what happened in the Cities of Death Book were it was Vostryan's First Born regiment which almost won. After they killed their leader and beat him to death with his own arm.
Sorry Dude to break it to you.... but the Tau are not chuck norris they are just aliens that will never face the full power of the Imperium, if they do anything stupid like attack the Forgeworld again. They Are ed like the Scythians vs the Crimson Fists.
Kilkrazy wrote: However all this is pointless since the timeline does not advance.
Therefore, all arguments pertaining to; "The Tau will be able to defeat the Imperium\become a large superpower in the galaxy\do something of some significance, in X number of years" are rendered invalid.
Asherian Command wrote:you keep forgeting their space craft suck. Serioiusly only 6 ships vs the entire Tau Defense fleets, WERE DECIMATED. By 6 ships, a Strike Vessel, a couple of escorts, A Battle Barge, A Cargo ship, and an Imperial Naval ship.
Sorry, but in the world of 40k Space Warfare controls the board not the ground support, the imperium decimates most of their enemies by beating the gak out of their forces before they even know it. Imperial Naval Warfare is shooting from like worlds away not the tau's up close and personnel. The Imperium is just ignoring the Tau because they literally have not ever faced a Full Space Marine Crusade. Hell They weren't able to stop a small one, that was a joke. The Imperium also has deployed Tau technology with their Deathwatch.
Just face it the Imperium would win in a Real stand-up fight.
Imperial battles are massive, the largest tau battle was the Zeist Campagin. Which they got owned in, by scarius and 30 chapters. The tau pissed off the Imperium by attacking a forge world, they arrived killed all the tau rinse repeat. They barely lost any naval ships. Read the Zeist Campaign.
You also can't forget what happened in the Cities of Death Book were it was Vostryan's First Born regiment which almost won. After they killed their leader and beat him to death with his own arm.
Sorry Dude to break it to you.... but the Tau are not chuck norris they are just aliens that will never face the full power of the Imperium, if they do anything stupid like attack the Forgeworld again. They Are ed like the Scythians vs the Crimson Fists.
Tau Fleet has improved in recent years at least, they learned from the weaknesses displayed against Imperial Ships and have come out with a new generation of Warships: the Custodian Class Assault Carrier, Emissary Class Cruiser, Castellan Class Frigate, and so on.
Tau rapid adaptability could be considered to be a future threat I guess, but again until they fix their long-distance space travel and population problems they won't become anything more than a regional threat.
As for what destroying the Tau Empire would entail, considering they've learned and adjusted themselves since the Damocles Gulf Crusade and considering how viciously they would fight in their core worlds, it'd probably take a rather huge Imperial Force. I'm not talking 13th Black Crusade-level forces, but still a far larger Task Force then they usually deploy for xenocide campaigns.
I agree, look at WWII. The Russians steamrolled through the German lines because they were willing to take losses and throw themselves at the German guns.
(Nobody better start making this thread about Nazi's now!!!!!!!)
Wrong winter came The US intervened in support with trucks otherwise the germans would have destroyed russia and 5 other panzer divisions could have been transfered the germans fought all the countries in europe and the united states and without us tanks and trucks they probably would have lost [t-34 are american designed and panzers were unfortuanately much stronger than all allied tanks as they nicknamed british tanks ronsons to light every time shermans tommy cookers]
just tired of that misconception.
I do not support nazi just hate the russians won by themselves.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yeah, Tau tech is better then the IoM in ways. The IoM has a brutal simplicity when it comes to tech. But the fact is that when it comes to heavy weapons the IoM has a significant edge range wise. And this isn't fluff. Its cold hard codex facts. I know the ranges don't translate very well, but its good enough to see what has a longer range.
Only due to game balance. A Railgun is shooting something as close to lightspeed as you can get it. A modern human railgun (in theory, as we can't actually prove the navy has them) can put a shell out to 12 miles with about an inch in drop.
Effectively it's a line of sight weapon, and only has a shorter range in the respect it's not a lobbed weapon.
Alternatively, if you want pure codex, Tau seeker missles > everything as they are unlimited range weapons.
I always thought that an american designed them, not that they were american designed.
IIRC the US military rejected the design (or was it the British?) when it was presented to them after WW1 and he then had to take it to Russia, as they were the only ones interested.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yeah and a Guardsmen with a missile launcher is a LOT cheaper then a crisis or broadside suit and a pilot. The money spent training him or her for the suit. The years it takes to actually become a crisis then broadside suit pilot. IoM can win a war of attrition, the Tau can't.
And the point is that the Tau never would fight a war of attrition. They fight in a way that is unlike any enemy the Imperium has faced before. They do not fight for pyrrhic victories, they do not hold ground, they do not build fortifications. They ebb and flow like water. When you think you have them pinned down, a mobile force outflanks and cuts you off. When you think you're been beaten and are about to be executed, they move onto another objective, leaving the few survivors inneffective and lost. They are efficient and mobile and adapt as quick as any other race, Tyranids included.
One of the most telling dangers to the Imperium, though, is best described in message picked up from a human left behind by the Imperium when it retreated. I'm paraphrasing, but it said:
"They gave us land to farm, homes to live in, weapons to defend ourselves and showed us a life far kinder than any in the Imperium. If this is representative of the Tau, then why are we fighting them when we could join them?"
Wrong winter came The US intervened in support with trucks otherwise the germans would have destroyed russia and 5 other panzer divisions could have been transfered the germans fought all the countries in europe and the united states and without us tanks and trucks they probably would have lost [t-34 are american designed and panzers were unfortuanately much stronger than all allied tanks as they nicknamed british tanks ronsons to light every time shermans tommy cookers]
just tired of that misconception.
I do not support nazi just hate the russians won by themselves.
I find your lack of historical understanding disturbing.
The tau being secretive, pogrom inducing space soviets fits sooo godamn well with the IP. What's really OOC is having one virtuous mary-sue civilization amongst a galaxy of morally ambiguous warrior species.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
They prove that humans and xenos can live in peace as equals with good standards of living. This alone swayed an entire gulf region and the world of Taros to their cause. Tau as an ideology pose a larger threat to the IoM than anything excluding Chaos. If the Squats join them, then we can expect that going forward Tau are going to be a major contender on not just a political front, but also a growing military front. Squats posses to my knowledge FTL on par with the IoM, that knowledge would turn the Tau into more than a harmless blip imo.
While the IoM could muster a force to crush anyone of it's many threats, they seldom do more than dispatch task forces to deal with things. In the case of the Tau, one such force was stalled and recalled. The next incursion saw a Forgeworld's mineral source stolen by Tau forces being supported by the planets human population.
If more conflicts begin going the route of Taros, the IoM may have a bigger problem on their hands than they currently do. Especially if Squat tech meets Tau tech.
Taros is such a bad example to use for the Tau beating the Imperium, Taros was taken because they managed to bribe the planetary governor since they knew that an Imperial force would utterly decimate the Tau army and fleet, a fact that pretty much all the Tau know. It even goes on to further state in IA3 that the Tau know that they will never be able to beat the massive weight of the imperial armies if they presented themselves as a threat.
The imperium lost Taros due to the fact that the 13th Black Crusade was just about to begin when Taros seceded, and most of the reinforcements due for arrival on Taros were relocated to Cadia (most notably the redirection of a Titan maniple and a whole armoured regiment). In IA3 it also shows that the Imperial fleets had complete control of the space lanes of Taros, the Tau fleets couldn't take on the Imperial fleets head on. It's most likely that the Imperium wouldn't be able to defeat the Tau or perform exterminatus on their worlds due to the logistical restraints and the fact that the Tau aren't stupid enough to put a big shining beacon on their head saying "We're a big threat, send a dozen battlegroups and space marine chapters down our throats!" like the Orks do with their Waaaghs!
The amount of worlds the Tau have actually taken is probably exaggerated too otherwise they'd have probably taken half of Ultramar by now, after all, Tau players need a reason to battle on worlds other then Sept worlds!
@ Miriclefish, very poetic, but they have to have strategic locations that they HAVE to fight for. I've pointed out how the tau will hit and run but once they are drawn into a full set piece battle by a refinery, or a key manufacturing facility being threaten, they have to stand and defend it. Which lets the IG do what it does best. Hammer them into submission. And for the flowing tau style of combat, the marines do the same thing, precession strikes, only in 3+ armor...
What you described is the ideal tau way of fighting, which would work, if it was a perfect world. But get commanders who actually use more tactics then human waves... but no its not grimdark enough for humans to use tactics more advanced then the early 1700's...
@ Rovian. In the words of Sten: NO. The soviets where perfectly capable of winning by themselves. There was no chance of a German victory post 1942. Even if the Allies hadn't invaded. The soviets had 300 divisions at the in June 1941. By august they had 400, in spite of losing 50 divisions. The Germans only had around 200 divisions on the eastern front, at he height of their military power, but we are getting off topic.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yeah and a Guardsmen with a missile launcher is a LOT cheaper then a crisis or broadside suit and a pilot. The money spent training him or her for the suit. The years it takes to actually become a crisis then broadside suit pilot. IoM can win a war of attrition, the Tau can't.
And the point is that the Tau never would fight a war of attrition. They fight in a way that is unlike any enemy the Imperium has faced before. They do not fight for pyrrhic victories, they do not hold ground, they do not build fortifications. They ebb and flow like water. When you think you have them pinned down, a mobile force outflanks and cuts you off. When you think you're been beaten and are about to be executed, they move onto another objective, leaving the few survivors inneffective and lost. They are efficient and mobile and adapt as quick as any other race, Tyranids included.
One of the most telling dangers to the Imperium, though, is best described in message picked up from a human left behind by the Imperium when it retreated. I'm paraphrasing, but it said:
"They gave us land to farm, homes to live in, weapons to defend ourselves and showed us a life far kinder than any in the Imperium. If this is representative of the Tau, then why are we fighting them when we could join them?"
Yep Tau can out adapt tyranids which is rather scary.
There really shouldn't be much debate on the strengths of the IoM versus the Tau in a straight up fight. As it stands the IG, Titan Legions, Astartes, Inquistion, Imperial Navy would steamroller anything the Tau can field.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FlammingGaunt wrote:
Miraclefish wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yeah and a Guardsmen with a missile launcher is a LOT cheaper then a crisis or broadside suit and a pilot. The money spent training him or her for the suit. The years it takes to actually become a crisis then broadside suit pilot. IoM can win a war of attrition, the Tau can't.
And the point is that the Tau never would fight a war of attrition. They fight in a way that is unlike any enemy the Imperium has faced before. They do not fight for pyrrhic victories, they do not hold ground, they do not build fortifications. They ebb and flow like water. When you think you have them pinned down, a mobile force outflanks and cuts you off. When you think you're been beaten and are about to be executed, they move onto another objective, leaving the few survivors inneffective and lost. They are efficient and mobile and adapt as quick as any other race, Tyranids included.
One of the most telling dangers to the Imperium, though, is best described in message picked up from a human left behind by the Imperium when it retreated. I'm paraphrasing, but it said:
"They gave us land to farm, homes to live in, weapons to defend ourselves and showed us a life far kinder than any in the Imperium. If this is representative of the Tau, then why are we fighting them when we could join them?"
Yep Tau can out adapt tyranids which is rather scary.
Raze wrote:Considering tau are supposedly on their fourth sphere of expansion as of GW's latest tau related campaign, I'm sure that nimbosa is going to change hands in the next few years again anyways. but tau sure do love giving ground.
I want to see what the tau actually do to those humans in new fluff, beyond that totally out of character "GRIMDARK MODE+5" sterilizing the population kill their women burn their children BS. seems more then a bit of lazy writing to do this to the totally cooperative humans, who could become the tau empire's greatest resource, but allow the nissacar and others, who actively fought against the tau as an organised group, to grow and thrive in the tau empire at the same time..
Nimbosa was cleansed by BT. They may leave an outpost there....and come back in force if neccessary.
Tau background in the 5th edition and onwards:
Its not out of character, its a change GW made from 3th to over 4th to 5th ed.
Their 3rd ed codex began with a theme of coexistance in a perfect world. 4th moved on to realizing the darkness of the 40kverse.
5th ed fluff is up to the encounters of tyranids, not so nice eldar, necrons, etc. Tau didn't identify chaos correctly, so still surprises left...
Humans as a ressource are are dropped as a concept, since they tend to rebel and a "mon'tau" is civil war, so Tau don't like rebellions.
Bottom line, Tau actively control vespids and thus trust them. Tau don't fully control kroot, and thus distrust them.
Humans? Would fit into the kroot setup as distrusted , just "tools" for the greater good.
Seems like most threats are thrown off by intercepting "aliens", if these Tau are lucky this continues.
But, one issue remains, can Tau participate in a combined force against lets assume nids,without blathering on and on about their gretar good until their "allies" decide to feed the Tau to the nids just to gain a few moments of silence?
Kilkrazy wrote:
The IoM outnumbers everyone and always will.
Thanks KK, IoM now outnumbers orks etc....
undivided wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
However all this is pointless since the timeline does not advance.
Therefore, all arguments pertaining to; "The Tau will be able to defeat the Imperium\become a large superpower in the galaxy\do something of some significance, in X number of years" are rendered invalid.
seconded.
Maniac_nmt wrote:
Effectively it's a line of sight weapon, and only has a shorter range in the respect it's not a lobbed weapon.
Alternatively, if you want pure codex, Tau seeker missles > everything as they are unlimited range weapons.
May point to the humble hunter killer missile Additionally, a imperial vortex missile does not only claim unlimited range, but instant removal.
IMO, the fact of planetary surfaces not being flat as your gaming table should be considered as a good hint why line of sight is inferior to out of sight weaponry when it comes to maximum range. Plus the environment of a planet could certainly consist of something else
than a gaming table and a few pieces of terrain can translate well.
mega_bassist wrote:So, from reading all the posts, this is what I gather:
1. The Tau will lose against the IoM if a full-sized Crusade would happen right now
2. With total numbers aside, the IoM (and fellow Dakkites) acknowledge Tau ground forces are a quick learning/adapting and dangerous enemy.
3. Tau Navy is advancing, but still not a viable threat - IoM can still pwn them w/o a seconds thought
4. The Greater Good is accepted by renegades/dissidents, but normal "citizens" and troops of the IoM are still devoted to The Emperor no matter what
I love how all the arguments are based on current or past fluff. GW already retconned the "near sighted" thing (it was in the 3rd edition codex but not the 4th); they'll retcon other things until Tau are on par with the other armies....unless they just squat the whole thing but I don't see that coming.
It's always funny how these threads always wind up turning into Tau haters demanding Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM and when examples are given, they find some way to discredit it.
I'm telling you, you're going to be fearing my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis cannons when ward writes our codex.
agnosto wrote:I love how all the arguments are based on current or past fluff. GW already retconned the "near sighted" thing (it was in the 3rd edition codex but not the 4th); they'll retcon other things until Tau are on par with the other armies....unless they just squat the whole thing but I don't see that coming.
Hrm?
It's always funny how these threads always wind up turning into Tau haters demanding Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM and when examples are given, they find some way to discredit it.
Except in every case where the "Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM"--it's situations where the freaking Imperial Guard is outnumbered almost 5:1 by Fire Warriors alone.
That's not counting the Kroot auxiliaries, human auxiliaries, etc.
I'm telling you, you're going to be fearing my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis cannons when ward writes our codex.
Too bad he's not writing your codex. Robin Cruddace is.
Kanluwen wrote:Except in every case where the "Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM"--it's situations where the freaking Imperial Guard is outnumbered almost 5:1 by Fire Warriors alone.
Yeah, GW's writing sucks then because there are a billion guardsmen to every firewarrior in the universe and the Tau, assaulting an IoM world outnumber the guard? Yeah.....right...
Kanluwen wrote:Too bad he's not writing your codex. Robin Cruddace is.
Ah, but I want my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis guns. I'll just go through the codex and write my own words in for the wargear.
So Robin Cruddace sucks? I never pay attention to who writes what so I genuinely don't know.
Kilkrazy wrote:
However all this is pointless since the timeline does not advance.
Therefore, all arguments pertaining to; "The Tau will be able to defeat the Imperium\become a large superpower in the galaxy\do something of some significance, in X number of years" are rendered invalid.
Yep Tau can out adapt tyranids which is rather scary
WRONG!
The Tau should have a love hate relationship for the Imperium right now. The Imperium could launch a full scale crusade on them and not even notice the losses (that's the hate), also the Tau wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Imperium teaming with them to kill the 'nids. They had adapted to pulse weaponry which is the projectile used by a huge margin of their forces.
Also say that the Tau beats the imperium in every way on the ground..... unlikely but say it happens because that is where they have a chance. They are now blockaded by Imperial ships and will either bombarded until they all die, or are just starved out......
The Tau have confused me fluff-wise for a long time. I understand why they're here, to give the 'manga' robo-philes something to collect and play, but since I don't read much of their fluff, I stay confused.
My simple assumption is that that they're supposed to be some self-sacrificing force of a growing egalitarianism set against the stasis or decay of a bloated Imperium and the self-serving forces of Chaos.
A young races' idealism struggling against the decadence of the past.
The only reason they aren't steam rolled is because the Imperium is so completely self-absorbed that they can't be bothered.
Plus, I think many Imperials secretly harbor some admiration for the race and what they've accomplished thus far... despite being xenos.
Tau have been made up to spread interest toward Asia ( Tau are modern day Japan when you look it that way ). And they needed someone with bad-ass tech, and they have given them little territory and no advanced FTL speeds to be equal with the rest...
Kanluwen wrote:Except in every case where the "Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM"--it's situations where the freaking Imperial Guard is outnumbered almost 5:1 by Fire Warriors alone.
Yeah, GW's writing sucks then because there are a billion guardsmen to every firewarrior in the universe and the Tau, assaulting an IoM world outnumber the guard? Yeah.....right...
Kanluwen wrote:Too bad he's not writing your codex. Robin Cruddace is.
Ah, but I want my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis guns. I'll just go through the codex and write my own words in for the wargear.
So Robin Cruddace sucks? I never pay attention to who writes what so I genuinely don't know.
He's the guy who ruined the Nids codex but made IG the juggernaut they are today.
Kanluwen wrote:
So of course when it gets brought into line with the majority of books, Nid players scream "HE RUINED IT!".
Well, to be honest, I don't see 'nids having an easy go of it with grey knights and their great "All your MCs are disappeared" magic trick they can do with entire units of warriors and carnifexes with all their force weapon goodness..
I play Tau, I'm used to being curbstomped in cc, I'm sure 'nid players had a rude awakening when they stopped being combat gods...I mean it's a cazy universe when a marine can strike before a genestealer....
Kanluwen wrote:
So of course when it gets brought into line with the majority of books, Nid players scream "HE RUINED IT!".
Well, to be honest, I don't see 'nids having an easy go of it with grey knights and their great "All your MCs are disappeared" magic trick they can do with entire units of warriors and carnifexes with all their force weapon goodness..
According to Tyranid players "nobody uses carnifexes anymore!", so that's irrelevant anyways
The book has barely been out. Of course we're still seeing the "sky is falling! sky is falling!" crap.
I play Tau, I'm used to being curbstomped in cc, I'm sure 'nid players had a rude awakening when they stopped being combat gods...I mean it's a cazy universe when a marine can strike before a genestealer....
Well, if you go by fluff...Marines do usually strike before Genestealers in combat.
Provided that the Marine isn't wearing Terminator armor and using a PF or Thunderhammer, that is.
Kanluwen wrote:
The book has barely been out. Of course we're still seeing the "sky is falling! sky is falling!" crap.
Yeah, I'd kill to have some of the stuff they do; I was looking through the codex and most of the army has rending or poison or something else and zoanthropes don't suck. Meh, some people just don't adjust well to change.
The thing with Tau is that they'd have to work really, really hard to make them worse.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.
yeah that were largely undefended because they were being sent to other planets/systems. Etc. Plus it was a small crusade.
Also to people who say the tau outadapted the Tyranid fleets.... Thats wrong. It is so wrong. The Tyranids only sent a small fleet and they were seeing how powerful this race was and saw what it could do and died giving its information to the hive mind.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.
When?
It was what casued The Damocles crusade. The Damocles Crusade was actually a defensive action by the Imperium. Damn Xenos.
Since then they took only few worlds, they try few systems but Imperium kick their little blue asses...
They could only gloat about Taros and nothing else...
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.
yeah that were undefended. And also it was not 20 planets lol. They were then retaken.
IIRC it was a score of worlds. I think score is British for 20. It's not about them being defended or not. Those worlds were annexed by the Water Caste. The Water Caste is by far the most successful caste of them all at conquering and adding new planets to the empire. That's the caste the Imperium should fear not the other more famous one.
Brother Coa wrote:
Wrong, the Imperium lost their held worlds in the Tau Empire. All Imperial worlds where regain ( beyond the border of 3'rd phase expansion ).
Page 14 of the Tau codex:
The Crusade was allowed to withdraw, allowing the Fire caste to swiftly reclaim those worlds it had lost to the Imperiums counter-attack at the outset of the conflict.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.
yeah that were undefended. And also it was not 20 planets lol. They were then retaken.
IIRC it was a score of worlds. I think score is British for 20. It's not about them being defended or not. Those worlds were annexed by the Water Caste. The Water Caste is by far the most successful caste of them all at conquering and adding new planets to the empire. That's the caste the Imperium should fear not the other more famous one.
Yeah... but if i recall correctly the imperium according to the cities of death book they reconquered those 20 imperial worlds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
agnosto wrote:
Brother Coa wrote: Wrong, the Imperium lost their held worlds in the Tau Empire. All Imperial worlds where regain ( beyond the border of 3'rd phase expansion ).
Page 14 of the Tau codex:
The Crusade was allowed to withdraw, allowing the Fire caste to swiftly reclaim those worlds it had lost to the Imperiums counter-attack at the outset of the conflict.
Read cities of death which was after this current codex.
Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.
LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?
Also can't forget this
Second Phase: The Crusade
In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion.
The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board.
The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance.
After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand.
Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison.
Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.
LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?
Also can't forget this
Second Phase: The Crusade
In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion.
The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board.
The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance.
After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand.
Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison.
Nimbosa crusade
So....what's that got to do with the Damocles Gulf Crusade?
Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.
LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?
Also can't forget this
Second Phase: The Crusade
In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion.
The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board.
The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance.
After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand.
Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison.
Nimbosa crusade
So....what's that got to do with the Damocles Gulf Crusade?
Nimbosa Crusade secured Nimbosa permanently the Tau can't go back. And the Ziest campaign halted the Tau.
Asherian Command wrote:Nimbosa Crusade secured Nimbosa permanently the Tau can't go back. And the Ziest campaign halted the Tau.
I'm sorry but could you explain to me how that relates to the Damocles Gulf Crusade? As I mentioned earlier, all I have is the codex and I've skimmed parts of IA:3...
Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.
LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?
Also can't forget this
Second Phase: The Crusade
In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion.
The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board.
The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance.
After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand.
Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison.
Nimbosa crusade
Poor Space Commies All they want if for everyone to get along...
...under the leadership of Teh Space Pope and fighting for the Greater Good
Asherian Command wrote:Nimbosa Crusade secured Nimbosa permanently the Tau can't go back. And the Ziest campaign halted the Tau.
I'm sorry but could you explain to me how that relates to the Damocles Gulf Crusade? As I mentioned earlier, all I have is the codex and I've skimmed parts of IA:3...
I am giving examples of the Tau forces being stopped. I am not talking about the Damocles Gulf Crusade. WRONG GUY. I wasn't the one talking about it, i was saying that the imperium is just better in the fact that it was able to beat the tau alot. Medusa V, they were slaughtered, though they believed they had gained the knowledge of the warp. and believing they killed Nurgle.
In the grand scheme of things, Tau is the toddler trying to take all the adults' shiny new toys while they argue amongst themselves, occasionally being swatted as it gets too obnoxious.
Melissia wrote:In the grand scheme of things, Tau is the toddler trying to take all the adults' shiny new toys while they argue amongst themselves, occasionally being swatted as it gets too obnoxious.
Melissia wrote:In the grand scheme of things, Tau is the toddler trying to take all the adults' shiny new toys while they argue amongst themselves, occasionally being swatted as it gets too obnoxious.
The Crusade was allowed to withdraw, allowing the Fire caste to swiftly reclaim those worlds it had lost to the Imperiums counter-attack at the outset of the conflict.
And it don't say that was the Imperial worlds, it say "counter-attack" because Tau have send their military advisors to few Imperial colonies, with initiate the crusade at the first place.
Tau only reclaim worlds lost to the crusade, gain nothing...
In my opinion the few problems I see coming from an Imperium standpoint are these:
-Naval Power Iom vs Tau
-Troop Size Iom vs Tau
-Technology Iom vs Tau
1. The Imperiums navy is perhaps their single most impressive feature. The list of wins the navy has earned dates back to the earliest crusades in mans history. You will find very little debate from me that a decent sized Imperial Armada could bring a lot of pain to the table. However, factor in the enemy is no Ork sterring a big wheel. The leaders of Tau fleets are masterful tacticians that the Imperial Navy respects. The real threat from the Tau, is that you fight them as a whole with undivided leadership. The Imperial Navy tends to be split from the Guard and Astartes which can be cumbersome at times. While supreme command can be issued, it is generally not due to what a Horus did. The IoM has lost as many battles as it has won, simply because proper cohesion between the 3 elements of their forces couldn't be made. Only one time has Tau leadership ever had a split in decision making and that was with Farsight.
2. Numbers are great, but this isn't an all vs Tau discussion, it's what the IoM can send vs Tau. The Imperium can't send a massive force to wipe them out. If they could they would without a second guess, it's that a massive force being sent means Cadia might fall, or a WAAAGH might beat back a Guard line, or Nids might eat a forgeworld. The IoM has it's numbers tied up against a bunch of threats. What they can currently devote to the Tau isn't enough to defeat them and never will be, until they can close another front and afford to properly open a full front against the Tau. By the time they can, it is very likely the Tau will be in a position to meet and defeat an even larger force than last time. The Tau threat is a very real one that could take the fight to the Imperium very soon. Imperial leadership knows this and always keeps a keen eye on the Tau, dispatching whatever they can to slow them down. Most of the time however, these efforts are recalled and the Tau simply take the systems anyways.
3. The technology debate is endless, but it shouldn't be. The Tau outmatch the Imperium in this department hands down on the battlefield. The Tau can pop Land Raiders, Baneblades and Titans. These are all top tier weapons among the Imperium. As the tiers go down the Tau only get superior advantages in technology all the way down to Kroot, which have better weapons than Guard. Saying that heavy weapons make a difference is silly when Battlesuits were on the verge of wiping out Guard presence until Astartes invertvened on several occaisions. Tau have this advantage in spades, which doesn't mean Imperial tech is bad on the galactic front, but against Tau they are one or two generations behind.
Calling the Tau a joke is fine, just don't be suprised if their next codex puts them on a front deep in enemy lines with new technology and allies that narrow the gap in the odds.
agnosto wrote:
I'm sorry but could you explain to me how that relates to the Damocles Gulf Crusade? As I mentioned earlier, all I have is the codex and I've skimmed parts of IA:3...
Nimbosa was much, much later after DGC. It was near the end of the 41'st millenium, while DGC was 41.750 - same year the Tyranids first invasion.
According to the Space Marine codex Pg 48, during the Zeist Campaign the Space marines handed the Tau there behinds. And it states that they used the SAME tactics that the Tau use, hitting weak points, which destabilized the stronger ones. Classic Marine tactics, which shows that they are the Rapier to the IG Hammer. So Beef, this proves that the IoM are not constantly losing to the Tau. In fact it seems that in the Fluff the only way the Tau defeat the IoM is when they are understrength and outgunned. And that the IoM considers the Tau little more then pests. The Marines where all set to invade the Tau worlds. But got Recalled because there where more important threats to face. Now in the fluff the IG can out shoot the Tau with support weapons and Artillery, and win a war of attrition, while the SM's can out maneuver the Tau. Basically The Tau survive due to their small size, and the realitive lack of a threat they poise. And a 2+ plot armor save lol.
The following text is pretty much just my personal feelings on the tau.
Spoiler:
I like fighting Tau, btw. Its more fun then fighting any other army. It turns into a shooting match, which i can usually win, if i take out his armor, and usually keep my men in their Chimeras, and i use my supperior range to keep the tau out of range of my men. One battle i actually charged them. That was a hoot, actually winning in an assault lol. If you like the amine feel, [which i dont] its a good shooty army. But its one of those that takes a bit more then " Charge the cannons, i have a 3+ armor save ]
Asherian Command wrote: Medusa V, they were slaughtered, though they believed they had gained the knowledge of the warp. and believing they killed Nurgle.
What? How the hell do they get all the way there? MEdusa V is near the EoT, Tau is on the other side of the galaxy...
The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.
Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Calling the Tau a joke is fine, just don't be suprised if their next codex puts them on a front deep in enemy lines with new technology and allies that narrow the gap in the odds.
Or don't be suprized if GW get the Tau one big Tyranid attack
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Calling the Tau a joke is fine, just don't be suprised if their next codex puts them on a front deep in enemy lines with new technology and allies that narrow the gap in the odds.
Or don't be suprized if GW get the Tau one big Tyranid attack
That was Gorgon, if anything the next big fight will be the Iron Hammer Campaign. As it is described, it will be the largest encounter between Tau and Imperium to date. In all likelyhood it will be in the next Tau dex, which won't bode well for the Imperium. Guess we will have to see.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Calling the Tau a joke is fine, just don't be suprised if their next codex puts them on a front deep in enemy lines with new technology and allies that narrow the gap in the odds.
Or don't be suprized if GW get the Tau one big Tyranid attack
seconded!
2. Numbers are great, but this isn't an all vs Tau discussion, it's what the IoM can send vs Tau. The Imperium can't send a massive force to wipe them out. If they could they would without a second guess, it's that a massive force being sent means Cadia might fall, or a WAAAGH might beat back a Guard line, or Nids might eat a forgeworld. The IoM has it's numbers tied up against a bunch of threats. What they can currently devote to the Tau isn't enough to defeat them and never will be, until they can close another front and afford to properly open a full front against the Tau. By the time they can, it is very likely the Tau will be in a position to meet and defeat an even larger force than last time. The Tau threat is a very real one that could take the fight to the Imperium very soon. Imperial leadership knows this and always keeps a keen eye on the Tau, dispatching whatever they can to slow them down. Most of the time however, these efforts are recalled and the Tau simply take the systems anyways.
The thing is they do have the numbers to wipe out the Tau. And they have sent them. However it seems something always diverts the Imperiums attention away from finishing the job.
Melissia wrote:The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.
Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.
Mantas and Barrucudas aren't ridiculous firewpower,
A transport ship and a ground support aircraft aren't game breaking doomsday weapons. It's just that they carry standard Tau weaponry for their size, which by Imperial standards is doomsday firepower.
If the Tau ever set out to make a weapon akin to a Titan, Gundams would officially be in Warhammer 40K and the war would end lol
Asherian Command wrote:Nimbosa Crusade secured Nimbosa permanently the Tau can't go back. And the Ziest campaign halted the Tau.
I'm sorry but could you explain to me how that relates to the Damocles Gulf Crusade? As I mentioned earlier, all I have is the codex and I've skimmed parts of IA:3...
I am giving examples of the Tau forces being stopped. I am not talking about the Damocles Gulf Crusade. WRONG GUY. I wasn't the one talking about it, i was saying that the imperium is just better in the fact that it was able to beat the tau alot. Medusa V, they were slaughtered, though they believed they had gained the knowledge of the warp. and believing they killed Nurgle.
Maybe that was me. How many worlds are in the Tau empire right now? 12? If so that would seem to suggest that all Imperial worlds that were annexed by The Tau Empire were reclaimed or destroyed. Perhaps the codex meant they relcaimed all of their worlds (The Tau ones) from the Imperium.
How many worlds are in the Tau empire right now? 12? If so that would seem to suggest that all Imperial worlds that were annexed by The Tau Empire were reclaimed or destroyed. Perhaps the codex meant they relcaimed all of their worlds (The Tau ones) from the Imperium.
Surely it was reclamation.
Tau Map in BRB page 170 shows 16 sept's. Should be the most recent.
Melissia wrote:The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.
Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.
Mantas and Barrucudas aren't ridiculous firepower
To bring down a Warhound Titan?
Yeah. They are. It's like if the Imperium were to use Lance weaponry on a Light Cruiser to hit an Ethereal, standing in the middle of a hill by himself with nothing around him for miles.
It's excessive, unnecessary, and I find it hilarious that Tau fans feel that it's somehow not ridiculous.
A transport ship and a ground support aircraft aren't game breaking doomsday weapons.
You know that the Manta is called a "Gunship", right? It has transport capacity simply 'because'.
It's just that they carry standard Tau weaponry for their size, which by Imperial standards is doomsday firepower.
The Tiger Shark is carrying Manta/Escort vessel grade weaponry.
The Tiger Shark AX-1-0 is barely the size of the fighters that the Imperium fields. The railguns it carried were not "standard Tau weaponry for their size".
That's like if a Thunderhawk carried a Lance battery.
If the Tau ever set out to make a weapon akin to a Titan, Gundams would officially be in Warhammer 40K and the war would end lol
The Tau won't ever "make a weapon akin to a Titan". Anyone who actually knows their fluff and has read the quotes about their mindset knows that the Tau feel that Titans are "crude and unsubtle weapons of war".
Melissia wrote:The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.
Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.
Mantas and Barrucudas aren't ridiculous firewpower
Mantas are meant to be the Tau equivalent to a Warlord titan. If it took more than a single Manta to take down a Warhound, thats pretty ridiculous firepower to do the job.
Melissia wrote:The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.
Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.
Mantas and Barrucudas aren't ridiculous firewpower
Mantas are meant to be the Tau equivalent to a Warlord titan. If it took more than a single Manta to take down a Warhound, thats pretty ridiculous firepower to do the job.
Tau arent experienced in warfare with ANYONE. Sending unnecessary firepower to kill a warhound was probably just making sure the thing died before it stepped all over them
Mantas are not the counter to a Titan. Can they counter a Titan? Hell yes they can, but I would put a Barracuda more in keeping with a vessel meant for dealing with Titans.
Even then, one Tau Soldier in an XV88 Battlesuit can put the hurt on a Titan. Several teams can put one down.
Mantas carry a standard loadout for what they do, a low flying fleet craft that drops small armies off needs to have the ability to cover hot LZs. Although they can be quickly retrofitted for maximum punkage. Sorry if those same weapons dunk on Titans.
No getting around it, Tau technology craps on Imperium technology in War.
I won't even get into how rediculous Battlesuit technology is. Suffice to say, they have weapons that turn Terminator Armor into piles of goo.
Mantas are not the counter to a Titan. Can they counter a Titan? Hell yes they can, but I would put a Barracuda more in keeping with a vessel meant for dealing with Titans.
Even then, one Tau Soldier in an XV88 Battlesuit can put the hurt on a Titan. Several teams can put one down.
Mantas carry a standard loadout for what they do, a low flying fleet craft that drops small armies off needs to have the ability to cover hot LZs. Although they can be quickly retrofitted for maximum punkage. Sorry if those same weapons dunk on Titans.
No getting around it, Tau technology craps on Imperium technology in War.
I won't even get into how rediculous Battlesuit technology is. Suffice to say, they have weapons that turn Terminator Armor into piles of goo.
I will concede that the tau have more advanced tech. But if you look at the codexes, the IoM out range in all but personal weapons. And if you look at the fluff, its mainly IoM victories. The Space marines beat the tau at mobile warfare. While a good army, they can't stand against the might of the IoM
Edit: Thats called plasma guns btw. The thing that turns termies to goo.
Mantas are not the counter to a Titan. Can they counter a Titan? Hell yes they can, but I would put a Barracuda more in keeping with a vessel meant for dealing with Titans.
Uh, no. Barracudas are air superiority fighters.
Saying that "a Barracuda is more in keeping with a vessel meant for dealing with Titans" is like saying that the B-25 Flying Fortress was "meant to provide close air support".
You're looking for the "Tiger Shark" for CAS roles, and the standard Tiger Shark was ineffective against the Warhound. The Tau had to cannibalize wrecked Hammerhead weaponry and upgun the ammunition in order to make the AX-1-0 variant.
Even then, one Tau Soldier in an XV88 Battlesuit can put the hurt on a Titan. Several teams can put one down.
And once again, the Tau have only ever encountered Warhound Titans.
The Guard can bring down Warhounds, and regularly do, using their Leman Russes. This isn't anything special despite, what you seem to think.
Mantas carry a standard loadout for what they do, a low flying fleet craft that drops small armies off needs to have the ability to cover hot LZs.
They can't "cover hot LZs" with anything beyond their sheer size. Mantas don't actually land at the frontlines, same as Thunderhawks or Imperial bulk landers do not.
There's a reason that the Devilfish, Hammerheads, and Crisis Suits all have vectored engines allowing them to slow a descent.
Although they can be quickly retrofitted for maximum punkage. Sorry if those same weapons dunk on Titans.
Once again: Tau have not encountered any real war Titans. They've encountered Scout Titans only. And even then, it took multiple Mantas to bring down a Warhound Titan.
No getting around it, Tau technology craps on Imperium technology in War.
It doesn't hurt that every engagement the Tau have also outnumbered the Imperium and never actually engaged them in any measured battles.
The Tau have only fought harassment campaigns, no pitched battles.
Oh, but of course "that's the Tau strategy!". So why are they worried about Titans then?
I won't even get into how rediculous Battlesuit technology is. Suffice to say, they have weapons that turn Terminator Armor into piles of goo.
Uhhuh.
You know who else has "weapons that turn Terminator Armor into piles of goo"?
Every freaking race in 40k.
Yeah, I have to say: Tau may not pose a threat at all now, but I have a feeling they might even eclipse the Imperium in the future. If they continue to grow, technologically and in numbers, they may pose a serious threat. Really, though, it all boils down to how GW chooses to expand them in the future.
Eldar are the past, Imperium is the present, Tau are the future. Seems logical.
Mantas are not the counter to a Titan. Can they counter a Titan? Hell yes they can, but I would put a Barracuda more in keeping with a vessel meant for dealing with Titans.
Barracudas? Titan hunters? Are you joking? They pack seeker missiles and an Ion Cannon and are meant for bursting tanks and bunkers from the air (similarly to modern day bombers), not for assaulting something with enough weaponry to blow it out of the sky 1000 times over.
The Tiger Shark AX-1-0 is the Tau's answer to Titans. The original Tiger Shark was meant to simply launch drones from its holding bay, all that had to be ripped out and 2 heavy duty railguns fitted because nothing else worked.
Even then, one Tau Soldier in an XV88 Battlesuit can put the hurt on a Titan. Several teams can put one down.
Do you know why several teams can put one down? Railguns. Do you know how many 'several teams' will likely consist of? If the numbers of Tau needed to draw a stalemate are anything to go by, i'd say it's about 30-50 spread across the battlefield before the Princeps of a titan even breaks a sweat. One titan weapon can and will wipe those broadsides out of existance, and are far, far longer ranged than a railgun.
If you want a compariosn of fleets, check this excerpt from the Tau Battlefleet Gothic Fluff:
"The Orks however posed a major problem. Their ships were faster, better shielded and more heavily armed."
That is Orks, the Imperium's fleet out-everything Ork fleets bar number, and when you imaginae that the Orks once posed a huge threat to Tau with their ramshackle craft...
Now another excerpt about the Hero class Starship:
"The pinnacle of Tau technology, the
Hero class was the product of Tau
experience during the Damocles Gulf
Crusade. The Tau were determined that
they should have a ship that could match
the Imperial Lunar class. As it became
evident, they failed but they did succeed in
producing a credible ship of the line."
The Lunar Class is a relatively low/mid-line Imperial cruiser, and they failed to match it, yet you still say Tau>Imperium?
Cybronx wrote:Yeah, I have to say: Tau may not pose a threat at all now, but I have a feeling they might even eclipse the Imperium in the future. If they continue to grow, technologically and in numbers, they may pose a serious threat. Really, though, it all boils down to how GW chooses to expand them in the future.
Mankind is the past, Imperium is the present, Mankind are the future. Seems logical.
Kilkrazy wrote:Every codex makes that army sound the best. It's part of the sales pitch.
Who would buy a codex that made the army out to be a bunch of useless idiots who got killed all the time?
Isn't the fluff section of the Tyranid codex basically "Hive Fleet Scary Monster ate a couple of dozen worlds, and then Tiny Ramshackle Force soundly defeated it with minimal losses" repeated several times?
No getting around it, Tau technology craps on Imperium technology in War.
Let's see...
Imperial vs. Tau tanks? Imperium wins. The Leman Russ is the master of tank warfare due to sheer efficiency and versatility, as it is a cheap to produce, durable, mobile, powerful, and easy to use masterpiece of a main battle tank. The Tau Hammerhead may potentially be able to destroy it, but then, the same could be said of the Leman Russ Vanquisher on the Tau Hammerhead. And the Leman Russ is able to fulfill many other roles as well.
Imperial artillery vs Tau artillery? Imperium without a doubt. Tau don't like to use artillery to begin with, and don't have any dedicated artillery units except possibly the skyray-- and the Imperium does better than that with the Exorcist, whose payload is deadlier and has more ammunition for sustained barrages.
Imperial vs Tau powered armor? Generally Imperium wins. Tau have limited mobility in their battlesuits without their jump jets, meanwhile Imperial power armor is like wearing a second skin, even for unaugmented humans it becomes quite instinctive to move around in. And yes, the Imperium has a similar technology to the Stealth Suit, it's utilized by the Deathwatch and the Ordo Xenos primarily. And Imperial Power armor is miniaturized compared to Tau power armor to boot.
Imperial vs Tau plasma? Neither is better. One sacrifices power for safety, the other one prefers overkill. The Imperial weapon is better suited as a special weapon, killing power armored enemies with ease, while the Tau version is better suited as a basic weapon. Even the plasma rifle used by the Tau is less powerful than the most basic plasma gun used by the Imperium-- and the Imperium has the plasma cannon, which the Tau have no real equivalent of. Used by a vehicle, Imperial plasma weaponry is downright superior to the Tau versions.
The Imperium also makes better use of defensive positions and implements, from heavy weapons to quickly deployable barricades and trenches for cover; the Tau in comparison would sooner abandon a position than be forced to defend it.
The common Imperial Guardsman may not himself have the most amazing equipment in the galaxy in his hands... but he's supported by an immensely efficient mass-murdering machine that is the Imperial Guard as a whole, whom have far more combat experience and a history warring with the deadliest forces in the galaxy quite a few times longer than the existence of the Tau on planets off of their homeworld.
the grater good ). Same happened here on Balkan, only LOT messier.
... by taking up a long protracted Guerrilla war with no real hope of reinforcements. Thats right, the Humans would rather fight a hopeless war for the Emperor, then live as members of the Tau Empire. Oh, and apparently Firewarriors were handed there behinds to them, by guys with crappy guns, when they tried to root them out of the jungles.
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