I've been floating an idea around that is getting some interest with the players in my area of having a tournament that forces different list builds than the typical competitive lists that have been showing up at the past several events. Rather than have player-judged composition, each codex will have one choice that is not allowed at the tournament by gentlemen's agreement. Everyone has voiced their opinions on what they'd like to avoid in a tournament and I'd like feedback and ideas for units from a codex that we haven't come up with yet.

Space Marines:
Banned: Vulkan
0-1: Sternguard

Space Wolves:
Banned: Long Fangs
0-1: Thunder Wolf Cavalry

Dark Eldar:
Banned: Ravagers
0-1: Trueborn

Blood Angels (Double ban for this list):
Banned: Mephiston
Banned: Dante

Necrons:
Banned: Deceiver
0-1: Monolith

Eldar:
Banned: Seer Council
0-1: Fire Prism

Tau:
Banned: Farsight
0-1: Hammerhead

Orks:
Banned: Big Mek
0-1: Battlewagon

Grey Knights:
Banned: Purifiers
0-1: Dreadnought

Imperial Guard:
Banned: Vendetta
0-1: Medusa

Tyranids:
Banned: Doom
0-1: Tervigon

Chaos Daemons:
Banned: Fateweaver
0-1: Daemon Prince

Chaos Space Marines:
Banned: Daemon Prince
0-1: Obliterators

This would affect all the builds that are becoming too typical and would force some creative army lists. Please let me know if you can build an army that circumvents this composition limitation, thanks!

The other idea for a tournament, a little more wacky, would be a tournament where everyone brings marines but uses the rules from White Dwarf 300 for Movie Marines. Models would have to be fully painted, and the painting score will be equal to battle points.

I'm not a fun of banning anything. I think some 0-1s would be acceptable, though.

I'm also not sure why Blood Angels get singled out as the double ban list. There's nothing wrong with Dante. He costs a bundle, and can still get punked by a single failed roll against a powerfist. Also, banning him means you ban an entire kind of army, which is the full Sanguinary Guard army. While your at it, might as well ban Sammeal, Belial, Logan Grimmnar, Corteaz, Captains on bikes and whoever it is that makes Helions Troops, just to be fair.

If anything, Ban Mephiston and make Furioso Dreadnoughts or Vanguard Vets 0-1.

Commander Endova wrote:Also, banning him means you ban an entire kind of army

That's the point.

But yeah, I feel a little weird about the BA restrictions. Everyone I've talked to complains about the two special characters, not really anything else in the codex. I like the idea of banning Mephiston and 0-1 Furioso, though.

As an ork player, banning a big mek seems absurd. I could see that ghaz is overused but there is no reason to remove the big mek from play. Orks need the kff.

I am not sure I agree with any of the bans for non special characters.

Oaka wrote:
Orks:
Banned: Big Mek
0-1: Battlewagon

So I can't take a KFF, and only one battlewagon, but I still run a nob biker spam list?

Leigen_Zero wrote:

Oaka wrote:
Orks:
Banned: Big Mek
0-1: Battlewagon

So I can't take a KFF, and only one battlewagon, but I still run a nob biker spam list?

Exactly, and looking at some of the other ban lists, there won't be anyone that can stop you either.

EDIT:

Although maybe if you change the restrictions across the board to 0-1 HQ, and then each other unit can only be chosen once unless they are troops. So for example, you could still have 3 elites, but they all couldn't be the same unit. That would force more variety then just a single ban.

Oaka wrote:
Space Wolves:
Banned: Long Fangs
0-1: Thunder Wolf Cavalry

I dont see it as a good thing banning the Long Fangs. When you concider in the wolve's list, they are the only way to take man-packed heavy weapons?

Space Marine Razorback lists should do just fine in this environment.


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Wow, just noticed that Tyranids lost a troop choice. This is fair and balanced.

A single ban and a 0-1 will do nothing to stop power gaming lists

Let us take the Blood Angels as an example

No Mephiston or Dante

I can still take Librarian for Shield/Rage
I can still take Priests
I can still take 5 man assault marines in a Razorback
I can still take 5 man Missile Devastator Squads in a Razorback

You have done nothing to stop the Razorspam BA list.
All you did is take away some of the best anti-tank from some other lists (like Dark Eldar)

You can not Ban enough stuff to get rid of every spam list out there.


I think that this is a better idea

HQ's are all 0-1

You may only include 1 named Character (HQ or upgrade character)

Elite, Fast and Heavies are all 0-1

For troops.
If you only have 1 troop selection, there are no restrictions (think Necrons)
If you have 2 Troops selections, each one is 0-3 (Orks, Space Marines)
If you have 3 or more troops selections, each one is 0-2 (Guard, Chaos Space Marines)

If you move a unit's FOC, then it affects this chart. For example if you take a unit of Nobs as troops, you now have 3+ troop selections so your boys are now 0-2

Dedicated Transports are limited to 1 per 500 pts. (2 transports for a 1000 pt game, 3 for a 1500 pt game)


I think that a system like this will force players to take a variety of units, Rather than just finding the best units you did not ban, and them Spamming them.

I extremely dislike your idea. You CANNOT do something like this without severely imbalancing the entire game

The typical competitive Mech BA army (which is most of what shows up at competitive events) doesn't use Dante or Mephiston anyway.

HQ: Cheap Librarian with SoS
Troop1: 5 marines in Las/plas razorback
Troop2: 5 marines in Las/plas razorback
Troop3: 5 marines in Las/plas razorback
Troop4: 5 marines in Las/plas razorback
Fast Attack 1: Baal predator
Fast Attack 2: Baal Predator
Fast Attack 3: Baal predator
Heavy Support 1: Auto/las predator
Heavy Support 2: Auto/las predator
Heavy Support 3: Auto/las predator

I see that variants of that list all over the country. I rarely see any other type of BA list. Oh well, it happens. But now....you've removed ALL THE TOOLS that everyone else has to deal with a list like this. No long fangs allowed. No ravagers allowed. No Vendettas allowed.

And speaking of IG, Vedettas are personal flavor. 0-1 Medusa? Those don't even show up in competitive lists.

Typical Mech IG list:

Bunch of Chimeras
2-3 vendettas
2-3 hydra flak cannons
1-2 manticores, mixed with 1-2 leman russes.

So out of that whole thing, you're going to ban the vendetta, and then take away EVERYONE ELSE's ability to deal with the mechspam.

The problem with this concept is that not every army has a "best unit." You make Monoliths 0-1. Ok, so Necrons are screwed. With overcosted underperforming mandatory troop choices, monoliths are pretty important for teleporting troop choices around the board, out of combat, onto objectives. Because every OTHER army (except tyranids) has vehicles that can get their troops around fast. You don't want Necron warriors moving more than 6" per turn? Fine.

Why don't you simply ban all vehicles from all armies. That would make it more fair. No one gets any vehicles at all. No one is allowed to take more than X number of STR8+ weapons in their army.

Seer Council's banned, and Fire Prisms 0-1. *chuckles* Who cares? WHen you can take 6 wave serpents and 9 war-walkers, Eldrad the Broken...you don't need a seer council. Those are so two years ago anyway.

The only way for you to balance this - and while it would still be poor it would be much better - is to institute some army wide rules. No vehicles may be taken that have more than 32 total armour value on all sides. No army may have more than 1 type of the same unit. (You're only making Necrons illegal this way, but you were already screwing them worst of all, so it doesn't matter).

But this....is a horribly imbalanced poorly thought out idea.

Svendrex's concept is much better.

As always, all any composition restrictions will do is create a new spread of power, it will not level the field. Like most attempts at comp, this one will actually reward the best codices, while hurting the weakest.

Borderline armies such as CSM or Nids become far weaker, while top shelf armies like IG or BA just take the next best available unit.

Svendrex's solution will make things more interesting among the upper armies, but will hose the mid-level and weakest armies pretty bad. Some armies only have a handful of truly good units.

I would be happy to play under Svendrex's restrictions with my CSM. It would require one change from my Adepticon Championships list.

Space Marines:
Banned: Vulkan
0-1: Sternguard

You'd be better off with 0-1 Assault Terminators ... won't stop combat squadding 10 of them, but I don't know that Sternguard are really the problem.

Space Wolves:
Banned: Long Fangs
0-1: Thunder Wolf Cavalry

Thunder Wolves as an effective unit are fading; long fangs makes sense since everyone spams them; 0-1 Wolf Scouts

Dark Eldar:
Banned: Ravagers
0-1: Trueborn

*shrug* ... DE are already kinda boned

Blood Angels (Double ban for this list):
Banned: Mephiston
Banned: Dante

As has been stated, this doesn't make very much sense. Mephiston is about to go the way of the DoDo with Grey Knights being able to gank him 12 ways from Sunday. Nipplewing is a rockpaperscissors list, and loses to numerous match-ups on face value, so banning Dante makes little sense. BA are not rocking everyone's world; they don't really require limitations.

Necrons:
Banned: Deceiver
0-1: Monolith

Is this just so you can do something for every list? You shouldn't ban ANYTHING from the contemporary Necron dex ... if you want to be "fair" and ban something from everyone, ban Flayed Ones and 0-1 the Nightbringer. Heh.

Eldar:
Banned: Seer Council
0-1: Fire Prism

I suppose this makes sense, if you're going to ban anything. You'd be better off banning Eldrad. Plain jane seers don't have nearly as much impact, and are far easier to punch or shoot to death.

Tau:
Banned: Farsight
0-1: Hammerhead

Heh, banning Farsight ... this is what you shoudl be doing with the Necron dex; banning things that are pointless to begin with.

Orks:
Banned: Big Mek
0-1: Battlewagon

Banning the big mek breaks the only thing Orks can reliably do well, and encourages Nob Bikers even more. This is kind of the opposite of what you want to do. 0-1 on Battlewagon makes sense; try banning Nobs, or Lootas.

Grey Knights:
Banned: Purifiers
0-1: Dreadnought

Shouldn't be banning anything yet; if you want to prevent purifier psycannon spam (which isn't even all that good), ban CROWE so that people can still take a few purifiers if they want, and the 0-1 should probably be on henchman squads, so that you don't see the other side of overreaction with henchspam.

Imperial Guard:
Banned: Vendetta
0-1: Medusa

0-1 Manticore, far more dangerous than Medusa, and a big concern b/c of the way its rules break basic game mechanics (killing a unit at range with a unit, vs. killing or banging up several at a time) ... the Vendetta banning is not as impactful as you'd think.

Tyranids:
Banned: Doom
0-1: Tervigon

Ruining an already underpowered dex even further? Good call. Banning doom accomplishes little; it stopped being good when it was FAQ'ed that it didn't reach into transports (not that it should have).

Chaos Daemons:
Banned: Fateweaver
0-1: Daemon Prince

Most players at the top tier aren't taking Fatey as much / often anymore, so banning him is questionable. 0-1 Fiends and ban Bloodcrushers, and you'll see some really whacky freaking out list building happen.

Chaos Space Marines:
Banned: Daemon Prince
0-1: Obliterators

Again, mean to an already weakening dex.


Like most comp systems, this one screws the average player and benefits the codex breaking powergamers, who are better equipped and experienced with making the best of what they have. I guess you'll see some new lists, but ...

Anywho, please take with grain of salt; typing in a hurry so not monitoring for tone; this is meant amicably / non-confrontationally / non-negatively.

Mannahnin wrote:I would be happy to play under Svendrex's restrictions with my CSM. It would require one change from my Adepticon Championships list.

Comp is comp. I think Polonius was right to say it is just a game of whack-a-mole. I would definitely have to make some changes to make it (svendrex's) work, but that's just because it conflicts with some of my basic design choices.

It would kinda hurt my normal sisters list. Okay, I keep my canoness, lose a Celestian squad, lose 2 xExorcists. So I take more Guard/Basic Sisters squads. It'll be hell to shoot off the board, but won't really do a lot of damage in return. Oooh, just noticed the Ded Transport conditions... I would have to put my Seraphim back in to get enough points.
Definitely doable, but I would feel very naked without 3x Exos. I haven't run a sisters list without at least that for yeaaaars.

My Space Wolves? That would require a bit of a rework since my most current force is basically a facestomp MSU one. Luckily I have plenty of models to change it around. I would probably buy a box of Terms and do the crazy walking wolves build that would tear up this kind of comp.

My footguard would completely ignore these restrictions except making them choose between a PBS and Marbo. Other than that, it would just be more bodies in platoons and bigger power blobs.

My new orks? They'd fair a bit worse. Wazdakka for bike troops means no warboss. 1xLoota, 1x Nob Bikers and 1xDeffkopta. Now I can only have 2 units of bikes in the army? Umm. Yeah, that's not going to work out. I don't even own normal boys. I guess I can make 2 10 man squads of gretchin, but those aren't really going to fill points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Mvbrandt: The wacky thing about his list is not that he is trying to make things fair or ban broken combos but just ban things that players at his location 'don't want to see' in the next tournament.

I guess the list makes more sense in that context. It's almost a 'breath of fresh air' comp.

Thanks for the last two replies, with actual suggestions rather than 'Oh noes, my list!'. To prevent unforeseeable imbalance, there will only be one banned unit per codex, and it would be the unit that seems to be an auto-include for most lists. The name of the tournament is "Leave your crutches at home!"

So, the banned list so far with the replies:

Vulkan
Long Fangs
Ravagers
Mephiston
Monolith
Eldrad
Big Mek
Crowe
Vendetta
Fateweaver
Daemon Prince


And just so every codex has a unit on the list(I don't consider them auto-includes at all):

Farsight
Tervigon

svendrex wrote:I think that a system like this will force players to take a variety of units, Rather than just finding the best units you did not ban, and them Spamming them.

I would take Imperial Guard, on foot, and cover the table in as many heavy weapons teams as possible. A healthy mix of autocannons and missiles should do just fine. Considering the most I will ever see is 5-6 vehicles total, there is no issue playing this way. Giant blobs of infantry stand in front and torrent down any troops that come near.

The entire army would be 1 HQ, 2 Troops slots taken, and there would be no stopping it. While normally extremely weak to tank shocking strategies, they can eliminate the one factor that would lose them their games.

All this is beside the point. Your system, svendrex, like any other, imbalances the game worse than when before you started changing the rules. Some armies depend on their fast attack or heavy slots to be competitive. Limiting them gives other armies with strong troops a huge advantage. Have fun playing as Tau or Necrons with 1 heavy, 1 elites...

I know dashofpepper was just tossing out ideas, but many armies depend on their transports. Furthermore, melta stops being as relevant if the entire table is AV11/12 as a limiting factor, and armies that can toss a lot of Autocannons out will be king.

Everyone means well with their composition ideas, but doesn't actually think this through to their conclusion (how balance is affected). If you want complete balance, just tell people what list they can bring. If you want variety, leave all the options open.

@fearspect: It's 0-1 of EACH heavy, elite, fa. So Tau/Necrons at least could fill out the slots if they wanted. Off the top of my head, most codexes have 3 different for each FOC slot.

So you'd still see some weird lists. I agree.

@Oaka: As a one-time thing, themed tournament, I don't think it is a bad idea. It will definitely just break things in a different way, but whatever.

If it was a long-term, multiple event thing, I would retire my other armies and play foot guard.

As some have stated, not every codex is getting screwed the same amount by the limitations. My 2 cents.

slapping necrons while they are down by taking away monolith!

Mannahnin wrote:Svendrex's concept is much better.

I agree- if you were going to go that route, it seems better thought out to me.

But as a one-off tournament among people who know each other, banning a single thing shouldn't be too bad. It just wouldn't work on a larger scale / with people who didn't know each other...

Yep, the idea is that it is a local tournament and everyone seems to be on board with the 'challenge' of having to change their armies up for a single tournament. It will also help the two local stores if every regular player picks up a unit or two that they otherwise wouldn't. I'm not expecting a national tournament player to travel with their razorspam list just to win this little event.

Anyways, the more I think about a Movie Marine tournament, the more I would prefer to organize that event instead of attempting a composition tournament. It suits my approach to the hobby more, with the potential for some great conversions and paint jobs and some interesting gaming situations. I hope to post the preliminary ideas for it once the White Dwarf with the rules in it that I bought on eBay arrives.

What are you referring to by "movie marine"? (I haven't heard of it)

RiTides wrote:What are you referring to by "movie marine"? (I haven't heard of it)

It's a variety of 40K in WD 300 where you use a Tac squad with the equivalent stats for a "movie" featuring them(ie, more how the fluff portrays them). So a force of 10 guys plus a Rhino or Razorback vs a whole army. Really only works thematically if you're facing non-meq armies.

They've each got 3+/3++(with the option for stunt doubles to take the death), 5's or 6's across the Stat board, all have Rending(both on their Assault 4 36"[iirc] Bolters and their knives), and tons of other crazy rules(a Lasback fires a line of death style Lasbeam).

If anything, I'd suggest hive guard for the restricted Nid choice.

I think if this is a local challenge, rather than focusing on making it symmetrical, actually ban all "auto-includes" and restrict more units. So you ban/restrict more choices in good codices, and fewer in the worse ones.

Polonius wrote:If anything, I'd suggest hive guard for the restricted Nid choice.

I think if this is a local challenge, rather than focusing on making it symmetrical, actually ban all "auto-includes" and restrict more units. So you ban/restrict more choices in good codices, and fewer in the worse ones.

Actually, if this is a local thing, why not just tailor it to your local players rather than making rules? You could talk to each player and find out what their crutch is and have them remove it. Makes more sense than trying to find a broad solution for a very small population.

So....with Monoliths on the banned list...you won't see any necrons...?

EDIT:

Petre makes a good suggestion, although I'd imagine Oaka has already communicated/vetted this through his local community and they are probably all on board anyway. Still, it's very much a ban list from 2 years ago it seems, and basically leaves Space Marines (all flavors) on top and gimps everyone else's chances to take them on.

I played in a small local tourny that was called Tale of Two armies. Basically you brought two 1000 point lists from the same codex but you could only take a unit in one of the lists (exeption: troops). So you could take long fangs in one list but not the other. At the start of each game your opponent would select the list you would have to use. Still doesn't prevent some power lists but it was an interesting way to add variety.

How about instead of 0-1 thunderwolf calvary, we limit to one razorback.

And for guard 0-1 chimera

That way we can do away with the real cheeze in these lists.

Gornall wrote:I played in a small local tourny that was called Tale of Two armies. Basically you brought two 1000 point lists from the same codex but you could only take a unit in one of the lists (exeption: troops). So you could take long fangs in one list but not the other. At the start of each game your opponent would select the list you would have to use. Still doesn't prevent some power lists but it was an interesting way to add variety.

So, like kinda like Warmachine?

You know what would fix a majority of 40k issues; Limiting Armour.

Say you decide on a total 'Amour pool". Say---60 for example. Armies add all of the highest AV value from their mechanized units---and that cannot exceed that cap.

LR: 14
2 Razors: 22
2 Speeders: 20
56 total

After that---no more armor. This stops Razorback spam, Chimera Spam, Vendetta Spam and other crotch kicking lists that are a real joy to play against. I think it would shift the meta in a good way.

*I know the total of 60 might be seen as too limiting (Or too gracious)----I'm simply throwing out a number to illustrate the idea.




To OP;

That kind of limiting would be very difficult---as you are expecting that each codex only has two unbalancing factors. Take your SM ban on Vulkan----I would consider TH/SS Terminators one of the strongest parts of that codex (and something I see frequently). Space Wolves----I consider Rune Priests stronger than TWC---as many people just run lone Wolf Lords with Wolf wounds. And there will be people that agree with me (and disagree with me).

Would be pretty tough to do.

This is just asinine, it is a few people picking on units that serve a purpose for a particular army that someone thinks it OP. Each of the units listed as "banned" and such serve a purpose and have an anathema, just because you are not playing a force that has that anathema does not mean they should go. If that was the case we all need to start playing the same army and list.

Not a fan. Leave the game as unbalanced as it is. At least its the devil you know...

Why not just cut all the HQ, elites, fast & heavies down to 1 slot each and only half your troops can have transports. That's easier and much less selective.

Bat Manuel wrote:Why not just cut all the HQ, elites, fast & heavies down to 1 slot each and only half your troops can have transports. That's easier and much less selective.

Oww. That's even more restrictive. IG wins.

Still supporting Dante and Mephiston for BA?

BA should be:

Banned: Mephiston
0-1: Predators

IG should be:
Banned: Manticore
0-1: Chimera

And you should have a tournament wide:

0-1: Razorback
0-1: HQ units

Your list thus far has crowned BA as the king of the untouched.

Now you don't get razorback spam, which the rules are encouraging. SW lose the workaround of taking 4 runepriests with living lightning (cheap and effective if losing longfangs). Since you're forcing people out of mech, banning the manticore is imperative, or guard lists are going to be a bunch of foot-mounted HWTs with triple manticores to "lol" their way through every opponent army. Vendettas are no longer relevant and don't need to be banned. Triple lascannons....but you've equally nerfed everyone's armour, not just screwing with Necrons and DE. So what if people bring Vendettas now?

And as Mike said (and you really should listen), if you're going to impose the same requirements on Necrons, make it trivial. Most competitive players can laugh a Necron army off the table. You don't need to nerf them further. If you want to ban Tau units, then hit the ones that actually would hurt them. Broadsides and crisis suits. So what if hammerheads are 0-1? Most competitive Tau lists use broadsides for anti-tank duty, and suits for anti-infantry duty. If your "ban" is intended to hit "auto-include" units, then ban crisis suits and make broadside battle suits 0-1.

When you compare something like IG vs. Necron in the ruleset you're imposing....Necrons have 4 useful units, and 2 of them share the same slot. Both of them rely on monoliths to stay alive. And you've put them 0-1. People who bring the current Necron codex to tournaments should be applauded for bravery treated with care because they are *not* expecting to win. Now you're just kicking them while they're down. Compare that to IG, with an entire codex full of useful units...and you're only touching one of them.

The armour pool would be useful as well.

What about scaling up Combat Patrol? Nothing with more than two wounds, no AV total of more than 32 for any vehicle or walker and standard FOC.

Exceptions have to be made for 1) Tau Commanders and 2) letting Necrons have the Monolith because, well, otherwise it's just not cricket, old boy...

The unit you really need to ban/restrict is razorbacks.

I hate imposed restrictions on army lists. Many tournament organizers believes they are doing a great service by balancing the environment when in reality they are doing more harm. In the past, I've seen tournament organizers try to impose restrictions such as no special characters or limit to 2 wound models. A unit ban and 0 - 1 on a specific choice makes it difficult for players who have a set innovatory of models.

SabrX wrote: A unit ban and 0 - 1 on a specific choice makes it difficult for players who have a set innovatory of models.

That's a good point too.

My Necrons....my close combat necrons....

I have exactly what I need to run the army. I traded out my destroyers for wraiths, sold off the spare stuff...this would literally be a "Well, your army isn't welcome" moment.

Yeah, but you have other armies, right? I mean, if literally the only models you had were those required to build one specific list, that'd be quite rare.

Can I just point out that Comp is just a holdover from an earlier time where there were armies that needed to be held back, and is completely unneeded?

Dumb idea.

Polonius wrote:Yeah, but you have other armies, right? I mean, if literally the only models you had were those required to build one specific list, that'd be quite rare.

For old veterans, sure. But what about newbies? Vets have it easy. We can go to another army or change things up. Some new guy probably fields what he has.

Dronze wrote:Can I just point out that Comp is just a holdover from an earlier time where there were armies that needed to be held back, and is completely unneeded?

Because it hasn't been posted recently:

The OP's post is motivated by the desire to have a LOCAL one-off tournament, with the described system used to shake up the LOCAL metagame.

It sounds like everyone is playing the same builds every game, and the idea is to spark a little variety. In that context, I like the idea, though I question some of the choices. I can wish he hadn't labeled it "Composition," as that brings out a lot of knee-jerk reactions.

Miraclefish wrote:What about scaling up Combat Patrol? Nothing with more than two wounds, no AV total of more than 32 for any vehicle or walker and standard FOC.

Exceptions have to be made for 1) Tau Commanders and 2) letting Necrons have the Monolith because, well, otherwise it's just not cricket, old boy...

Tyranids don't have an HQ option with fewer than 3 wounds.

well, the OP suggested this was based on community support, so I'm imagining that not too many newbies are running "banned" units or mutiple restricted units while having no other options.

And if so, and they're running at say 1850pts, how is this any different than when they run hard boys? In both cases, some people might not have enough stuff.

Deadshane1 wrote:Dumb idea.

So, do you feel the OP is so off base that his idea requires a response of that kind-----or are you attempting to state you cannot think of any constructive way to improve/edit his idea of encouraging variety at his local scene?

Because, to be honest, just reading your post without context----it looks pretty inflammatory/rude.

I thought it was fine until you banned Ravagers and 0-1'd Trueborn.
Yes. Try to play DE without some decent amount of AT.
This is dumb. Just...no.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Dumb idea.

So, do you feel the OP is so off base that his idea requires a response of that kind-----or are you attempting to state you cannot think of any constructive way to improve/edit his idea of encouraging variety at his local scene?

Because, to be honest, just reading your post without context----it looks pretty inflammatory/rude.

Not being rude, its just a dumb idea, and its been stated why 1000 times in this forum.

This sort of thing is a crutch for people that get frustrated after facing things like multiple purifier units, 3xLoota Squads, multiple vendetta's, 3xLong Fangs, whatever. Impose a restriction so that you don't have to deal. Whimpy.

When you impose restrictions like this, theres no reason other than "I hate facing off against 15 Missle Launcher Space Wolf armies". There's no reason other than that to do this, and you're not playing 40k anymore when you do. You're playing "So and so's idea of what 40k should be."

If that sounds rude, sorry, but whatever...grow a thicker skin.



EDIT

Oh yea, and since these restrictions are generally imposed by folks who cannot handle these common combo's, you know, folks that really just arent as skilled at 40k as other more regular tournament players who really know what they're doing....

....The restrictions in question are generally imbalanced.

When you impose restrictions like this, theres no reason other than "I hate facing off against 15 Missle Launcher Space Wolf armies". There's no reason other than that to do this, and you're not playing 40k anymore when you do. You're playing "So and so's idea of what 40k should be."

Not that I agree with the OPs idea, but always facing crap like that over and over is just plain boring. I think it has nothing to do with whether or not his locals can handle those armies, but to inject some newness to the game. Is it the right way to do it? I'm not so sure.

Super competitive 40k can be boring at times because everyone is taking the same crap. It reminds me of a tournament I played in about 2 months ago. I literally had to run the boredom gauntlet of the same SW army in rounds 2 and 3. Eventually, it stops becoming fun playing the same damn armies all the time. Again, is this a good solution? That's ultimately his gaming group's decision to adopt it. He's just looking for feedback on what units would/ should be recommended for banning/ 0-1.

Or perhaps he is very skilled---and his local scene is simply looking for a way to encourage variety in lists so they can play different----and perhaps he stated that in his original post.

the players in my area of having a tournament that forces different list builds than the typical competitive lists

Now, no doubt 40k is an uncommonly deep, strategic affair that only an advantaged few can wrap their intellect around. However, rather than assuming he is one of the meandering proles that fail to grasp the innumerable nuances of 40k----perhaps you can take his OP at face value when he states he's looking for a way to encourage variety in his local scene.

Or you can reply "Dumb idea, get thicker skin".

I think banning things from codex is stupid. I can run a space marine army with a ton of missiles. Also banning deamon princes and limiting oblits? Why limit a book that isn't that great. Also fire prisms 0-1? Ya that won't fly. No big mek? 0-1 battlewagon. Why not say you can only play one army and one list and that's it.

I'm fine with having no battlewagon *Cough*greentide* cough*.

If anything were to be banned, make it Nob Bikers.

Most of the 5th edition codices (and Orks) would not suffer from banning one unit (apart from DE if you picked the Ravager, and Tyranids have a pretty hard time as it is, without stealing their Tervigons). There are more than enough possible builds in the newer books to make the ban ineffective, and players can just choose the type of spam that you haven't banned.

The really old codices would suffer big time: when you only have so many units to choose from in the first place, and some of them are automatically ruled out from being crap, every further restriction is like clogging an artery.

I think that the 4th edition books would benefit most from this type of restriction. Eldar and Tau both have a few good builds left in them, but they're really not set in stone and there is a clear dependence on Wave Serpents, Hammerheads, etc that could be replaced by skillful use of other units. If that is the type of intuitive thinking you are trying to bring out, then I could see where it would be useful.

The problem is that the oldest rulesets are terrible and limited, and the newest would laugh off the restrictions because there is so much diversity in the available options.

Nightwatch wrote:Most of the 5th edition codices (and Orks) would not suffer from banning one unit (apart from DE if you picked the Ravager, and Tyranids have a pretty hard time as it is, without stealing their Tervigons). There are more than enough possible builds in the newer books to make the ban ineffective, and players can just choose the type of spam that you haven't banned.

This is the POINT, actually.

It's not a "Let's run GTs this way" suggestion; it's just an attempt to provoke some variety in what sounds like a very static local metagame.

I'm sorry Oaka, but... I WOULD LIKE TO RANT AGAINST YOUR IDEA, UNDER THE MISTAKEN IMPRESSION THAT YOU ARE ADVOCATING SOMETHING OTHER THAN A FUN VARIANT TO SHAKE UP YOUR LOCAL METAGAME.

I am somewhat mystified at how many people feel the need to post responses in this thread which seem intended for some other thread, and don't seem to reflect the situation as described in the original post.

Bad, bad, idea.

I could see banning certain SCs and/or maybe some extremely OP units, but the OP's proposal is just weird.

This is a horrible idea, imo. I wouldn't play in any tourney that ran it and would probably avoid that place in the future, as they would have demonstrated that they have no idea what they are doing. Going codex by codex to pick the stuff the TO doesn't personally like? Stinks of douchebaggery and people will just play around it anyway. You can't bully people into "comp."

Skarboy, where are you getting any of that from what the OP wrote?

He seems to have clearly expressed that this format is a change of pace based on the collective local group's opinion. Not one TO being a bully.

Well, I get one or two useful replies for every ten angry ones, so I deem the thread a success .

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that I was attempting to eliminate all spam lists. Those that actually read my posts got it right, I'd just like to force different lists from local players. I've never seen Nob bikers around here, for instance. I don't care if it's a great spam list, I'd like to actually see it rather than some varient of KFF Big Meks. I've also never seen razorback spam. Most of the local guys were part of the feedback process. The space wolf player that relies on long fangs thought it was a good idea to choose that unit. The imperial guard player that relies on vendettas thought it was a good idea to choose that unit, etc. The area that I had questions, hence, the reason for this thread, was what units to choose from the other army books.

There will be a tie-in with the hosting store so that each player, when signing up in advance, will get a hefty discount on a single boxed set to replace their 'crutch' for the event.

there are a lot of ways to shake up the game.

Your favored idea at the moment is to ban stuff.

There are a lot of other restrictions suggested.



I am just going to throw some really crazy ideas out there.

1) Change up the mission objectives:
Make it so that only troops that are not in vehicles can take objectives.
you get one point per turn you hold an objective
New rules for kill points, 3 for HQ, 2 For everything not a troop choice and transports, 1 for troops.

2) Change some rules in the BRB
Make a more dangerous Vehicle Damage Table.
Change Would allocation so it can be abused in multi-wound units.

3) change or ignore some rules from codexes
Remove the Phase out Rule for Necrons, and Change WWB to FNP.
Change the points costs for stuff you do not like. Long fangs are 18pts a model, Canifexes are 130pts base
Change some weapon stats, Venom cannons are R36" S7 AP4 A3, Heavy are R36" S9 AP3 A2, both have -1 on the damage table
Change the statlines for somethings, Make Mephiston S/T 5 and reduce his points a little

4) Have unit restrictions, but you can ignore them by paying a Tax.
You can take your long fangs, but you have to pay and extra 100 pts per squad or whatever.
First sterguard squad has no tax, second has a 20 pt tax, third has a 40 pt tax or something like that.


You can change whatever you want in order to try and make the game different. You will never be able to change enough stuff in order to make the game perfectly balanced.

Mission-based comp that punishes metalists is a much more creative solution.

If you want to piss on shooty armies make a night fight rules or make all weapons over str 5 have a misfire 'gets hot' rule.

Want to limit pillboxes? Limit distances vehicles can move.

People do this all the time in tourneys with custom missions.

The bans are dumb (No big mek?!) as are the restrictions. Just make it no two units the same. Banning long fangs is a complete insult to the idea of a fair tournament as well, 0-1 i can understand but banned, no... FAIL... Spam is what you want to cut out, after all a vendetta is just three lascannons and long fangs is just 5 rocket launchers, deal with it.

On second thought banning Special characters is fine (i would possibly make exception for FOC changing characters; Logan, Sathonyx etc..).

+ People have been picking holes in your idea loads, Nob bikers, 6 hydras, Razorspam, all kinds. Which you have been ignoring...

EDIT: Read the comments and Svendrex and Dasho annihilated your idea and created a great one from it's ugly mewling husk, take note.....

Weird. I actually really like the OPs idea and selections.

I can't help but note that there was no banned/limited list for witchhunters. Just goes to show....

It does strike me as unbalanced in that the same types of units are not banned from the various codices. Or worse yet that 2 of the same types were hit (ala the CSM daemon prince/oblit). If you are serious about forcing some changes in the armies at your local events may I suggest just talking to the players. If you can convince Bob the Blood Angel player that he might have more fun by not playing Mephistion and/or Dante then all is well and good. Otherwise all you are doing is making people feel frustrated/limited by some arbitrary choice. Why not encourage people to play unusual lists but using carrots like a special prize of some sort? Or maybe have a "tactics workshop" that focuses on some of the lesser used models/units.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

Deadshane1 wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Dumb idea.

So, do you feel the OP is so off base that his idea requires a response of that kind-----or are you attempting to state you cannot think of any constructive way to improve/edit his idea of encouraging variety at his local scene?

Because, to be honest, just reading your post without context----it looks pretty inflammatory/rude.

Not being rude, its just a dumb idea, and its been stated why 1000 times in this forum.

Yes, you are being rude. Because you're insulting Oaka and his group, and you apparently didn't read the thread. He's talking about his group, collectively, agreeing to some restrictions which will shake up their lists for an event. He's not talking about trying to rebalance the game by making permanent changes. He's not talking about a single TO imposing restrictions on others. So a lot of your comments aren't even relevant.

Deadshane1 wrote:If that sounds rude, sorry, but whatever...grow a thicker skin.

How about I ask you to learn to read other people's posts and respond to the idea they're actually advocating, instead of skimming it and assuming they're talking about something else? How about you try not to be insulting when you disagree with someone? You agreed to follow the forum rules when you signed up. How about you follow rule #1, hmm?

Deadshane1 wrote:[When you impose restrictions like this, theres no reason other than "I hate facing off against 15 Missle Launcher Space Wolf armies". There's no reason other than that to do this, and you're not playing 40k anymore when you do. You're playing "So and so's idea of what 40k should be."

Oh yea, and since these restrictions are generally imposed by folks who cannot handle these common combo's, you know, folks that really just arent as skilled at 40k as other more regular tournament players who really know what they're doing....

The funniest part of your post, in terms of Composition restrictions in general, is this concept that only bad players could ever advocate or play under them.

Nevermind the ETC. Nevermind that Da Boyz, who run one of the few remaining GTs in the US with any Comp, are butt-stomping tournament players even in non-comped events. Jay W got 4th in the Adepticon Champs using Tyranids and has won multiple GTs. Shaun Kemp was won multiple GTs. Eric Hobic has won GTs and continues to do well at Adepticon and other big events, etc. Nope. Shane says these ideas only exist because players are bad, hate 40k, and can't compete.

Being condescending should also be against the forum rules...

It's a form of rudeness. As is failing to read someone's post and using it as a springboard for an only tangentially-related rant.

Mannahnin wrote:It's a form of rudeness. As is failing to read someone's post and using it as a springboard for an only tangentially-related rant.

I was referring to your post actually...



[/joke]

Hmmm... if I hadn't read from the beginning, I'd have no idea what this thread is about. Now it's just people insulting each other. Pretty sure we'll just be looking in the window soon enough as the mods gotta be locking the door.

CT GAMER wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:It's a form of rudeness. As is failing to read someone's post and using it as a springboard for an only tangentially-related rant.

I was referring to your post actually...



[/joke]

No worries. Shane knows I defend him too when people get him wrong. He has a tendency to get a little overexcited sometimes, but is essentially a good dude. The gods know I certainly should have sympathy for other people who are passionate about the hobby...

Mannahnin wrote:As is failing to read someone's post and using it as a springboard for an only tangentially-related rant.

How DARE you insist that people should READ posts and respond reasonably instead of just flying off the handle at the slightest provocation!

Well....

i can see the Dark Eldar Winning this Local Event...

Whats that Mr. Dark eldar Player?

you have HOW many Ravagers?
0???

Well...
i have 3 Land Raiders. Suck it B**ch

You're better off taking units people don't use and soliciting ways to improve them if you want a diverse local meta. The way you're doing it now will reduce the number of viable armies which is essentially the opposite of what you're going for.

Of course any post that isn't just some generic flavor of "Yeah dude! Right on! Do (whatever thing you just posted) and enjoy it, because we're all unique snowflakes!" is labelled as an "Angry post" which you just ignore. Did you really come here for actual feedback on your ideas?

What most of the 'angry replies' are showing is clear imbalances your proposed system creates.

If you don't see many razorback lists, this is an excellent system to encourage them (be careful what you wish for, as you remove a lot of the tools other armies possess that balance them).

Play a tournament with a throwback concept: no special characters allowed.

Or, as others have suggested, just mess with the missions. Make special characters worth 5 kill points in one game. Make vehicles start the game in reserve in another. Make objectives not allow deep strike, tank shock, or running near them.

Lots of ways to mess with popular builds, just try to mess with all the ones in your area to be fair.

Man, I think again that a lot of people are not getting he doesn't care about the impacts on the power curve, or the fact that some of the restrictions are going to force some of his players to field lists at an extreme handicap. In short, the suggested changes would create a game that isn't very fun to SOME of you, and far beyond any subtle imbalances present in the base form, but that's acknowledged/accepted/practically intended by the OP's idea. So, lay off him for what he already knows.

It's like someone asking you to suggest a black t-shirt to wear, and the response being "black is a stupid color." If your input is that black is a stupid color, your input is pointless, b/c the OP has already fixed that component of things as a requirement.

The one thing I'll ask - are you going to allow Proxies? Some of your changes will have dramatic impacts on what lists will look like; may be wise to allow any manner of proxying, so that people don't have to buy entirely new armies to participate.



Oh and for the sake of continuing to contribute:

Vulkan - That's fine, it makes sense as being the one you'd pick.

Long Fangs - Not fine, only in that I don't think you have a major impact on meta ... people can for the same points take 3 Vindicators, or they can just loganwing it up, which is far more annoying and boring ... just lots of dudes wandering about with missiles. I think you may want to consider banning something like Wolf Guard ... as critical as they are, make people have to think about Saga of Majesty and Ulrik, and finding ways around cheap GH+WG spam .... I get that you want to see "not long fangs," but they aren't what makes those lists tick, I don't think.

Ravagers - Like long fangs, I think you're spiting the entire army just to try and have variety. Accomplish variety instead by banning Raiders ... crazy, right? But now you're going to see lists that don't rely on the primary DE transport, forcing Venoms and Hellions and the like, *AND* you don't screw their ability to compete by removing their reliable anti-tank firebase ... again, similar to Fangs. You aren't going to see every unit change, so change up the way the army plays while leaving people with their basic list-competence building blocks ... does that make sense?

Mephiston - Yup. Though, GK kinda solve the need to ban him.

Monolith - You *DO* know Necrons, right? Terrible in combat even more than ever, desperate to rely on WBB while flailing at people with a few units that might actually be useful? Monoliths are there to help keep them out of combat and alive just a little longer ... don't remove this from them. Ban the C'Tan, if people are just being dumb and taking tri-lith + deceiver.

Eldrad - Yes. And remember to keep those dirty cheaters from trying to fortune before turbo boosting with double jetseer.

Big Mek - No. This makes almost any Ork army much more reliable, and doesn't fixate people on just one build. If you want to see variety, ban Lootas or Battlewagons. Neither are as required as a lot of sophomore Ork players tend to think or pontificate about on the current intarweb. Also, not having a Bwag to hide your Mek inside will help the impact the Mek has, without rendering Ork armies completely pants down to going 2nd. That is, by the way, one of the most important components of the Mek .... it's not that he gives a cover save all game, but that Ork players can't afford to deploy in reserve with their only long range weapons being Heavy, and their other weapons all being short ranged, and their primary strengths still being throwing kanz or boyz at things at the right time. With a KFF Mek they are ensured of being able to cross fingers and 4+ cover deploy regardless of how the board shafts (or doesn't shaft) them when going 2nd.

Crowe - Again, ban something that doesn't allow for more list variety. Purifier spam isn't all that great. That said, I can't really complain here ... but maybe ban DREADNAUGHTS. People are going to be ever more frequently spamming Psyfleman dreads to try and achieve long range fire support, and removing them will help your variety I guess ... though how do you have variety issues with the dex being brand new? Any of these changes are going to cede to popular lists being repeated, unless you change the banned units every week.

Vendetta - I suppose; ban Psyker Battle Squads or Manticores. Both are truly cheesy in that they violate game mechanics not well-balanced for violation (massive leadership manipulation, and the ability to routinely bang up or kill 3+ units from the shooting of just one unit).

Fateweaver - Good ole Kairos is far less dangerous than credited; try removing Crushers or Fiends (whichever your local group thinks is the gak).

Daemon Prince - I suppose this makes sense, though you could just ban the Mark of Slaanesh and the Mark of Nurgle. It's not like people use them outside of DP's anyway ... and who doesn't enjoy seeing a Tzeentch or Khorne DP runnin' about for a change?


And just so every codex has a unit on the list(I don't consider them auto-includes at all):

Farsight - Lolzy.
Tervigon - Nids really don't need to lose Tervigons. If you just want to be fair, ban Pyrovores. Do us all a favor ...

We all define "fun" differently. The OP wants to see the group they play with mix up their lists and do things differently. The choices made were based on perceptions of....whatever the OP perceived..and the result will be "different." Folks in the area will make an attempt to try to play it out..or won't.

I'll note, nowhere in the Original post is a query asking what everyone's opinion of the idea is. The only question stated was "think of things to ban from lists we haven't nailed already." That pretty much gives his mindset, and also what it is he's looking for. W40K is a game of luck + strategy + rock/paper/scissors/chewinggum/dynamite/bunny. OP will set up the tournament with people having to use different versions of their rocks/scissors..etc.

Some will have a mindset to show up because the "fun" is in the challenge. Others will show up with a cheezed out army that fits the ruleset just to prove a point. Others won't want to show up at all because there really isn't a lot of fun when you perceive that you don't have any chance of being victorious. In the end, it doesn't matter.. because for "Playing" to be fun, it really helps when you're playing with people that define "fun" the same way.

Good luck with the idea.

The Dark eldar banned list is kinda poorly thought out for this.

The only actual hvy support kit GW makes for the current DE line is the ravager. So you basically banned the entire DE heavy support line GW currently supports. LOL yeah I know there are still all metal talos but most DE players know its getting a model in june so are not going to buy one.


You might as well just ban all heavy support options from all codexes that have a current model for them.

How about a no spam tournament. You can't have more than one of any unit.

Of course, since the Black Templars only have 1 troop choice and must field 2, they're kind of boned....

Nah. I would pass I think.

The trouble is, with some weaker armies, where there may only be one build, the removal of one good unit may make it much more difficult for them to win, or even draw. One tau hammerhead for example would make thing very difficult for tau, same with the monolith for Necrons, they will just lose to phase out quite quickly without monoliths to act as buffers

Thanks, MVBrant, for clearing this up for me (and I guess, many others).

The OP is not wondering about balance, he is just posting what he wants to do with his local gaming group to shake up the variety. Why this is in tournament discussion is beyond me.

OP: My suggestiong is, don't bother with any of this, just tell everyone that they have to bring a different list and to ease off the spam if that's what's bothering you.

Fearspect wrote:Why this is in tournament discussion is beyond me.

Because...it's discussion of a tournament?

The Tau would do well in that tourney...You got rid of arguably the worst IC in the game!

Yeah, banning Farsight was plain ridiculous. No worries to the haters, I'm not going to organize this tournament as posted. I just got the Movie Marine rules and am going to do a Movie Marine 1500 point tournament instead. Once I come up with some neat scenarios and scoring I will post the information.

Am I allowed to scan two pages of a White Dwarf from 2005 and post a link on Dakka?

I am asking a question for my local gaming group dynamic here... I don't see Dark Angels here, did I miss something? Also as someone else said, no witchhunters either.

And if the Dark Angel ban is Belial, I think I may have to grievously wound you

Apparently you all are friends, Sounds like a challenging time for all.

I think that taking out monoliths will destroy Necrons.

Good Luck

I advise instead of banning certain units, make some 0-1

Not sure I'm understanding all the knee-jerk reactions to what a terrible idea this is. A lot of you are acting like it's the nova open or adepticon. It's a local tourney for fun.

And it's by agreement. Which means if you don't agree, it doesn't matter, because you're not playing in the tourney. And the people in town who don't agree ALSO don't have to play in the tourney.

thehod wrote:I advise instead of banning certain units, make some 0-1

In the interest of shaking things up this is the way I'd handle it.

I've often pondered what a singleton tournament would look like. Meaning 0-1 of any one unit with a different type of restriction on troops (0-1 until you run out of codex selections and then max 6).

Not that I think this really helps balance anything mind you. It just gives the tournament a different look. People will still min/max given the restrictions, but you might see something slightly more interesting that long fang spam out of space wolves or vendetta spam from guard.

Oaka wrote:Yeah, banning Farsight was plain ridiculous. No worries to the haters, I'm not going to organize this tournament as posted. I just got the Movie Marine rules and am going to do a Movie Marine 1500 point tournament instead. Once I come up with some neat scenarios and scoring I will post the information.

Am I allowed to scan two pages of a White Dwarf from 2005 and post a link on Dakka?

I think a link is okay, though we can't host anything like that. Summarizing would be fine.

how about NO SPECIAL CHARACTERS and a max of 3 transports

As far as banning ravagers goes it really is no big deal, they can easily be replaced with razorwings to do pretty much exactly the same thing.

Perhaps better than Limiters, it might be interesting to have Mandatory units.

Space Marines- Scouts

Necrons- Pariahs

Orks- Wierdboy

Nids- Pyrovore (nah, just kidding. More like Biovores or something. We want oddly useful, not useless. Though it could be interesting seeing what 'nid players would do if required to take a Pyrovore)

Stuff like that. Don't know that much about some lists, which is why I didn't put an option for each codex, but that, along with maybe some 0-1 could make for an interesting tourney.

Anvildude wrote:Perhaps better than Limiters, it might be interesting to have Mandatory units.

Space Marines- Scouts

Necrons- Pariahs

Orks- Wierdboy

Nids- Pyrovore (nah, just kidding. More like Biovores or something. We want oddly useful, not useless. Though it could be interesting seeing what 'nid players would do if required to take a Pyrovore)

Stuff like that. Don't know that much about some lists, which is why I didn't put an option for each codex, but that, along with maybe some 0-1 could make for an interesting tourney.

I like positive approaches so this gets a

BUT i hate comp of any kind....