Just want to make sure I'm reading this right...

Abaddon and a squad of Chaos terminators are out of their transport. Vindicare Assassin shoots his Shield-breaker round at the unit, he hits, and wounds. Time to allocate the wound, the Vindicare's Deadshot ability let's me put the wound on Abaddon. Abaddon has now lost his invulnerable saves for the rest of the game, so unless the unit is in cover, Abaddon immediately takes a wound (AP1 on the rifle). I can then assault the unit with any squad of Grey Knights, and hit/wound him on 4+ (with HH), and he has no saves to keep him up.

I know most of this is pretty cut-and-dry as to how it works, the reason I bring it up is because I want to get clarification on Abaddon's Mark of the Chaos Ascendant. This increases the Invulnerable save granted from his terminator armor to 4++. This is a special rule, not a piece of wargear. Just double checking that this wouldn't somehow make his invulnerable save now come from special rules and not wargear and thus make him immune to the shield-breaker rounds.

This would apply to any model in terminator armor with a special rule (not wargear) that increases that save.

Clarify for us: Does it improve it by one, or does it replace it with a 4++?

There's a difference.

I'd say that if it removes his save afforded by the armour. so, if he has another 4++, he can still use that. if it just improves his armour, then he looses it altogether

That's a good question. Very similar to how Vindicare and Ghazkull's WAAAGH turn interact.

The answer is clearly that Abaddon either gets no save (Terminator Invul save becomes N/A, N/A+1 is still N/A) or he gets a 6++ save (Invul save becomes 0, 0+1 = 1, or 6++).

And in short, I don't know which is correct.

if it just says it improves the TDA's invuln by +1 then he has no Invuln.


it's similer to Nemisis Swords which improve your Invuln save by 1, but that requires you to have an invuln to improve.



Failbaddon has no invuln

Scipio Africanus wrote:Clarify for us: Does it improve it by one, or does it replace it with a 4++?

There's a difference.

I'd say that if it removes his save afforded by the armour. so, if he has another 4++, he can still use that. if it just improves his armour, then he looses it altogether

"Mark of Chaos Ascendant: [...][Abaddon] now bears a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts. Because of the Mark of Tzeentch, the invulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+.[...]"

then no more save

Actually...looking at the decription of the Marks themselves:

Mark of Tzeentch: Models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain +1 to their Invulnerable save (to a maximum of 2+). If given to a model that does not normally have an Invulnerable save, this Mark confers an Invulnerable save of 5+"

Now Marks in general are special rules (not wargear). So this brings the question does Abaddon's Mark truly count as having each individual Mark, or is that part just "fluff" and really he just gets +1 to his 5++ from terminator armour?

If the former, then shield-breaker would remove his terminator save, but then does Abaddon then get a 5++ from a having a Mark of Tzeentch? Or does he not get this because that is only given to models that "don't normally have an Invulnerable save" and he normally does, it's just now gone?

he doesn't have MoT

he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent which just improves his existing save.

Grey Templar wrote:he doesn't have MoT

he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent which just improves his existing save.

Which is what I believe. However the Rules for Mark of Chaos Ascendant says it combines all of the gifts, and the invulnerable save increase is "because of the Mark of Tzeentch". Which is why I'm questioning it.

it still doesn't actually give him the mark which is unfortunante.


Archon the Everchosen(fantesy counterpart to Abbadon) has a similer description, but his bonuses are different from the actual marks.

Sounds like he might just be able to have a 5+ Inv. Since the rules for Mark of Chaos Ascendant gives him all marks.

I know this a bit off at a tangent but what would happen for a KFF? The model that you hit can't have the KFF protection?

the KFF is a cover save.

Since the rules for the vindicares shield breaker weapon is plural not singular even if the mark did confer a bonus wouldnt he still lose both?

I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Since the rules for the vindicares shield breaker weapon is plural not singular even if the mark did confer a bonus wouldnt he still lose both?

Grey Templar wrote:I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

The Marks are special rules. They are listed on the special rules page, and models that come with have them, lists them under special rules.

I know Abbadons mark is actually a special rule but based of the justification that his special rule is just all the marks(wich are listed under wargear), it doesnt seem like he would get to have an invuln one way or the other.

Grey Templar wrote:I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

that is a question....

FAQ where are you

Exergy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

that is a question....

FAQ where are you

kryhavok wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Since the rules for the vindicares shield breaker weapon is plural not singular even if the mark did confer a bonus wouldnt he still lose both?

Grey Templar wrote:I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

The Marks are special rules. They are listed on the special rules page, and models that come with have them, lists them under special rules.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I know Abbadons mark is actually a special rule but based of the justification that his special rule is just all the marks(wich are listed under wargear), it doesnt seem like he would get to have an invuln one way or the other.

does his special rule actually say "he has the MoT, MoK, MoN, and MoS"?


unless it actually says that, it's just fluff and will have no bearing on his having a base 5++

I'm pretty sure he loses his invul altogether. The Ascendant rule can't improve an invul that doesn't exist anymore, especially if it says " improves the save granted by the armor."

Grey Templar wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I know Abbadons mark is actually a special rule but based of the justification that his special rule is just all the marks(wich are listed under wargear), it doesnt seem like he would get to have an invuln one way or the other.

does his special rule actually say "he has the MoT, MoK, MoN, and MoS"?


unless it actually says that, it's just fluff and will have no bearing on his having a base 5++

his rules in this edition dont, but the are very loose. He basically gets +1 attack, +1 inititive, +1 toughness from no where and they are included in his profile as increases over base. Then there is a small note that says mark of the accendant improves his armor save to 4++.

No, the vindicare takes away invulnerable saves from wargear. since the mark of chaos ascendant is wargear, he has no invul.

The mark of ascendant combines the effects of all marks into one. This means his has all 4 marks, meaning that if you remove his termi invun save, the mark of tzneech grants him a 5+.

juraigamer wrote:The mark of ascendant combines the effects of all marks into one. This means his has all 4 marks, meaning that if you remove his termi invun save, the mark of tzneech grants him a 5+.

...which is then promptly removed by the shield-breaker round. It doesn't remove 1 at a time you know...

The mark of the chaos ascendant isn't wargear, it's special rules.

juraigamer wrote:The mark of the chaos ascendant isn't wargear, it's special rules.

And specifically states that it upgrades the invulnerable save from his terminator armour. With that gone, there's nothing left to upgrade. As he doesn't have a mark of Tzeentch, he doesn't get an invulnerable save. Fluff=/= rules.

juraigamer wrote:The mark of ascendant combines the effects of all marks into one. This means his has all 4 marks, meaning that if you remove his termi invun save, the mark of tzneech grants him a 5+.

If it really counts has him having the actual MoT (which is debatable), the MoT would not give him a 5++. MoT says it only gives a 5++ to models that do not "normally" have an invulnerable save, not that it provides the 5++ if the model doesn't have or loses it's invulnerable. Abaddon normally has a 5++ from his terminator armor, so he only gets the first effect of improving it to 4++.

Because that's what the mark of tzeentch does in this case, as is normal with models that have an invulnerable save built in.

However the mark of tzeentch alone (which isn't removed due to the chaos ascendant mark being a special rule) on page 25 of the CSM codex states that a model that normally doesn't have an invun save, gains a 5+.

Now we are in the realm of FAQ, since while he normally has an invun, After being shot he doesn't. Since for the rest of the game he normally wouldn't have an invun save, he technically gets one.

But Abbadon doesn't have the MoT.


he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent(which, according to the fluff, is the mark of all the gods)

it doesn't say that he has the MoT.

Grey Templar wrote:But Abbadon doesn't have the MoT.


he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent(which, according to the fluff, is the mark of all the gods)

it doesn't say that he has the MoT.

actaully it does
it doesn't say "he has mark of tzeench"
what it says is "because of mark of tzeench, his invulnerable is improved" therefore he must have mark of tzeench

Implication means nothing,

it doesn't give him the MoT.



if the MoCA said, Abbadon has all 4 marks. then it would be true, but its not.

Grey Templar wrote:


if the MoCA said, Abbadon has all 4 marks. then it would be true, but its not.

Page 46 CSM, Mark of Chaos ascendant: "He bears a unique mark that combines all the gifts" And then it goes on to list specific effects of each mark for clarity.

UNique mark /= MoT.

nosferatu1001 wrote:UNique mark /= MoT.

but it has the same effect as MoT. Therefore if he didnt have an armor save it would do the same thing MoT does, give him a 5++

I'd say that by RAW it could very easily be argued that he loses it.

RAI is another issue: it seems odd that Abaddon himself would lose his invulnerable save, but a regular Chaos Lord would not, because they have a 5+ invulnerable save listed as part of their special rules, not from wargear. It doesn't make sense to me.

But of course, fluff =! rules.

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:UNique mark /= MoT.

but it has the same effect as MoT. Therefore if he didnt have an armor save it would do the same thing MoT does, give him a 5++

it doesn't have the same effect.

MoT gives +1 to existing Invulns and a 5++ in the absense of an existing one.


MoCA just gives +1 to existing invuln.

Grey Templar wrote:

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:UNique mark /= MoT.

but it has the same effect as MoT. Therefore if he didnt have an armor save it would do the same thing MoT does, give him a 5++

it doesn't have the same effect.

MoT gives +1 to existing Invulns and a 5++ in the absense of an existing one.


MoCA just gives +1 to existing invuln.

It is even simpler than that; MoT gives a +1 to existing Invulnerable saves, OR a 5++ to models without an existing Invul; depending on to whom it was given.

Whether MoCA is rules-wise all Marks or not, does not matter, in this case it was given to a model with a pre-existing Invul. That invul was therefore increased by 1(by increased we mean of course the Numeric value was lowered); this is told to us by his rules. If said invul is removed, so too are the MoT(-like) benefits.

Mark of Chaos Ascendant:

"...Over the millenia Abaddon has melded the Marks of Chaos granted to him, and now bears a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts. Because of Mark of Tzeentch, the invulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+. The other benefits are included in his profile..."

It's quite hard to interpret. "Because of Mark of Tzeentch, the inulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+" Implies that he has the Mark of Tzeentch, for if he does not have it then he cannot get the increased save it provides, as the Mark of Chaos Ascendant does not specifically give it to him, it simply says that it is granted by the Mark of Tzeentch.

There is room to argue that he only has a 5+ Invul because the MoCA does not give him the increased save, instead it says that he has the Mark of Tzeentch which grants it; if you argue that he does not have the Mark of Tzeentch, then he only has a 5+ invul from the terminator at all times and the shot would remove this save.

It's a very difficult rule to work with.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

It is even simpler than that; MoT gives a +1 to existing Invulnerable saves, OR a 5++ to models without an existing Invul; depending on to whom it was given.

Whether MoCA is rules-wise all Marks or not, does not matter, in this case it was given to a model with a pre-existing Invul. That invul was therefore increased by 1(by increased we mean of course the Numeric value was lowered); this is told to us by his rules. If said invul is removed, so too are the MoT(-like) benefits.

typically you give marks to characters before you give them other wargear or at the very least at the same time unless the MoT was provided by an Icon.

actually thinking of an icon is helpful. Assuming Icons effected ICs.
if Abadon was in a unit with an Icon of Tzeench would he have a 3++ or a 4++. If MotA does not have MoT inside it, he has a 3++ if MotA does have MoT then he has a 4++. If a regular terminator in a unit with an Icon of Tzeench is shot by this kind of round then he would go from a 4++ to a 5++.

it would seem to be cumulative with an Icon.

assuming he actually doesn't have the MoT.

Icons Very Specifically deny the ability to ICs that join the unit.

Well, all excepting Chaos Glory.

Also A termie with the Icon of Tzneetch would lose all invulnerables, just like any other model with multiple invul saves from different wargear(The Sheild breaker round removes all invul saves not just any given 1)

The real Question is whether Marks of Chaos are Wargear or just some sort of upgrade to CSM ICs; A Lord in termie Armor with the MoT has 2 4++ saves, 1 Natural(then lowered via mark), and 1 from wargear(the Termie armor). Icons are Clearly Wargear, but basic marks... I am not entirely Sure. The Shieldbreaker round would remove a Regular termie lord+MoT's Termie armor granted 4++, but will it remove the quasi-natural 4++ from just the Mark(There is no doubt whatsoever that he would retain the natural 5++, even if the Bonus from the mark gets removed)?

Normal marks are wargear, however the mark of the chaos ascendant is a special rule that seeming provides the same effects as the marks combined into a simple special rule.

If the mark of chaos ascendant was listed as wargear, then no saves at all from vindicare, but since it's a special rule...

Marks of chaos, not icons, are listed under special rules for models that carry them base in their profile. This leads to marks being special rules, not wargear. Icons are undoubtedly wargear as of right now..

A lord, either in termie armor or in base power armor will always have a 4++ with a mark of tzeentch.

I would say abaddon should have a 5+, given to him by his mark of tzeentch that his entry states he has the benefits of.

I think he loses the save. MoCA seems to assume that he will always have an invul, so it says that his invul is increased. Remove said invul, nothing to increase, so nothing happens.

He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

nosferatu1001 wrote:He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

yes there is, MoCA has MoT, which will give a model without an invunerable save a 5++

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

yes there is, MoCA has MoT, which will give a model without an invunerable save a 5++

But he has an invulnerable save, which means all it does is increase it by 1. Besides, MoCA=/=MoT, as repeatedly pointed out.

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

yes there is, MoCA has MoT, which will give a model without an invunerable save a 5++

Assuming that he does has all the effects of MoT, he would not gain the 5++ as that bonus is only given to models who do not "normally have an invuln". Under normal circumstances Abaddon has an Invuln, so the only benefit he could gain from the MoT is to increase it by 1. MoT does not give the 5++ to any model with out invuln's, only to models that under normal circumstances do not have one.

This of course assumes MotA does include MoT, which only does in terms of fluff, not rules. As a special Rule MotA increases his armour's invuln to 4++ and gives cause for the raise in stats in his profile.

RAW either way, all Abaddon would get is his armour invuln increased to 4++, which is then lost by Shield-breaker.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

yes there is, MoCA has MoT, which will give a model without an invunerable save a 5++

But he has an invulnerable save, which means all it does is increase it by 1. Besides, MoCA=/=MoT, as repeatedly pointed out.

This.
MoT=/= MoCA,
and even if it was, MoT has improved his inv save by one, so you then cannot use the 5++ because he did have an inv before, he just doesnt after (and it would be stripped by the shield breaker round anyway)

Besides, MoCA=/=MoT, as repeatedly pointed out.

I'm going to repeat my post since it addressed this:

It's quite hard to interpret. "Because of Mark of Tzeentch, the inulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+" Implies that he has the Mark of Tzeentch, for if he does not have it then he cannot get the increased save it provides, as the Mark of Chaos Ascendant does not specifically give it to him, it simply says that it is granted by the Mark of Tzeentch.

There is room to argue that he only has a 5+ Invul because the MoCA does not give him the increased save, instead it says that he has the Mark of Tzeentch which grants it; if you argue that he does not have the Mark of Tzeentch, then he only has a 5+ invul from the terminator at all times and the shot would remove this save.

Then paraphrase to:

It states that because of MoT, he has an increased invul. If he does not have MoT, then he would not have an increased invul as MoCA does not specifically give it to him, it states that it is given by MoT.

Either he has MoT, or he does not have MoT and will never actually have the 4+ invul stated by the MoCA because the MoCA isn't the rule giving it to him.

even IF the MoCA gives him the true MoT, he won't have an invuln after the vindicare shoots him.


this is because the effect of the MoT is applied at the beginning of the game. a model with an Invuln of its own has it increased by +1 or, if it has none at the time of the games beginning, a 5++. in Abaddon's case it becomes a 4+.

Ok after reading it over and over again, the MoCA grants the gifts of the 4 marks. It explains their effects (as standard) afterwards. This means the MoCA is just a special rule, no wargear involved (no extra marks inside)

Now because MoT does what it does, at what point do we determine if a model normally doesn't have an invun? At the start of the game? If for the rest of the game they don't? We don't really know.

Furthermore the MoT is applied all game long, not just a single effect in the beginning, otherwise it would cease to effect the model.

This just needs either more FAQ or people with vindicare assassins to stop trying to get around a 5+ invun provided by special rules.

even IF the MoCA gives him the true MoT, he won't have an invuln after the vindicare shoots him.

I'm not saying it will, i'm just arguing that he must have it to get the 4+ invul stated by the MoCA in the first place, because if he doesn't have it then he will only ever have a 5+ invul due to the MoCA not granting it to him.

It adds nothing else to him but i'm trying in part to settle the "does he or doesn't he have MoT?" issue.

Avatar 720 wrote:

even IF the MoCA gives him the true MoT, he won't have an invuln after the vindicare shoots him.

I'm not saying it will, i'm just arguing that he must have it to get the 4+ invul stated by the MoCA in the first place, because if he doesn't have it then he will only ever have a 5+ invul due to the MoCA not granting it to him.

It adds nothing else to him but i'm trying in part to settle the "does he or doesn't he have MoT?" issue.

he has MoT, MoCA gives him all 4 marks plus EW

Exergy wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

even IF the MoCA gives him the true MoT, he won't have an invuln after the vindicare shoots him.

I'm not saying it will, i'm just arguing that he must have it to get the 4+ invul stated by the MoCA in the first place, because if he doesn't have it then he will only ever have a 5+ invul due to the MoCA not granting it to him.

It adds nothing else to him but i'm trying in part to settle the "does he or doesn't he have MoT?" issue.

he has MoT, MoCA gives him all 4 marks plus EW

I know? I've been arguing that he has MoT?

Exegy - no, he does NOT have all 4 marks. He has, for the last time, MoCA, which *in fluff* is a bit like all 4, but in actuality isnt. This is one reason he doesnt have a poisoned, ID causing weapon rolling 2D6 additional attacks which also shoot in the shooting phase.

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

It's fully possible that they intended MoCA to differ from MoT, and wrote the rules differently as such. It makes sense that, even if he has all of the marks, melding them into one wouldn't change or diminish their original properties-- the marks symbolize very contradictory forces when compared to eachother.

IMO, he loses his saves. Even Abby can't have his cake and eat it too!

Whether MoCA gives the model MoT, or just functions with the same rules; He has an Invul Save per the Termie armor(not an inherent 5++ as with every other Chaos Lord); therefor since he has the Mark(granting the Same ability as MoT) and has an invul; his invul is increased, it will never give him the no-invul to start benefit of a flat 5++.

Abaddon wounded with a Shield breaker will be left with no invul save at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exegy - no, he does NOT have all 4 marks. He has, for the last time, MoCA, which *in fluff* is a bit like all 4, but in actuality isnt. This is one reason he doesnt have a poisoned, ID causing weapon rolling 2D6 additional attacks which also shoot in the shooting phase.

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

his daemon weapon is different from other daemon weapons. I dont see how he doesnt have MoT, when it says "Because he has MoT his save is 1 better to 4++"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing
the vindy's shield breaker removes ++ saves from ITEMS of wargear, not just wargear. A mark my be wargear, but is it an item?

Because that is under the line about him having MoCA. Seriously, anymore times it needs repeating?

Probably alot since the special rule only states he has all four marks, yet none of them count as wargear since it's the special rule giving the benefits of said marks.

The bigger issue is how we decide if a model "normally doesn't have an invun save" Hell we don't even know how to determine that. Normally as per every turn? Normally as per each game? Start of game? Gahhhh....

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

The MoCA does not improve his save by one. The MOCA states that 'because of the MoT, his invulnerable save is imporved', nowhere is MoCA stated as giving him the improved invul, it states that this comes from MoT.

Which leads us to:
Abaddon has MoT

OR

Abaddon does not have MoT, but since the MoCA is not the one giving him the increased save, he will only ever have a 5+ invulnerable.

Avatar 720 wrote:

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

The MoCA does not improve his save by one. The MOCA states that 'because of the MoT, his invulnerable save is imporved', nowhere is MoCA stated as giving him the improved invul, it states that this comes from MoT.

Which leads us to:
Abaddon has MoT

OR

Abaddon does not have MoT, but since the MoCA is not the one giving him the increased save, he will only ever have a 5+ invulnerable.

Or: MoCA works like a MoT when it comes to improving his invuln. save.

How? It states that invulnerable save comes from the MoT, yet nowhere does it say that Abaddon has it and nor does it say that the MoCA replaces the MoT in providing the invul; MoCA is not the source of the increased save, the MoT is, it even says it in the rule.

Avatar 720 wrote:How? It states that invulnerable save comes from the MoT, yet nowhere does it say that Abaddon has it and nor does it say that the MoCA replaces the MoT in providing the invul; MoCA is not the source of the increased save, the MoT is, it even says it in the rule.

yup clearly has MoT

the shield penentrator might take away the invunerable from a MoT though.

well, the MoT would only give a +1 in Abbaddons case because he has an Invuln standard.

losing his Wargear's invuln doesn't mean the 5++ from MoT kicks in.

Exrergy - no, he odesnt. He has MoCA, whcih acts like MoT for improving invulnerable saves.

ANd we're back round again.

Doesnt matter - no matter how you spin it, once his inv save is gone, its gone.

Well I will say this again, just to clarify, all marks, no matter who has them, are special rules.. NOT WARGEAR lol.

2 things I've thought of,

1. Its pretty clear abaddon is alwas a chaos lord at one point, why no base 5++ GW?? I mean every peeon lord has the 1/3 protection from the warp constantly but heaven forbid abaddon ever wants to take his armor off, chaos' prodigal son will have no protection..

2. As a compromise I would probably say a 6+?
because really, its not going to make a difference and it is a grey area right now

It isnt a grey area.

Normally Abaddon has a 5++. As in, in every game he starts with a 5++, that is then increased to 4++ by the MoCA

This is then removed by the vindicare, and, as he normally has a 5++ save does not get a 5++, even if MoCA worked like MoT - which it doesnt in this respect.

So, no matter what - he has no Inv save once removed by the Vindicare.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exrergy - no, he odesnt. He has MoCA, whcih acts like MoT for improving invulnerable saves.

I don't see where you're getting this from, the MoCA does NOT act in place of the MoT. The invulnerable save is stated to come from the Mark of Tzeentch, the MoCA says this in its rule and it is completely irrefutable. Nowhere in the MoCA's rule does it say that the MoCA provides an inulnerable save, increases and invulnerable save or works like the Mark of Tzeentch, it goes out of its way to state that the Mark of Tzeentch itself does this, NOT the MoCA.

You are assuming that the MoCA inherits the rules of the Mark of Tzeentch when there is no evidence that it does, if it did, then why the need to talk about the Mark of Tzeentch in the first place?

Yet he doesnt HAVE the MoT, he has the MoCA.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet he doesnt HAVE the MoT, he has the MoCA.

Well if he doesn't HAVE the MoT, then he will never get the 4++ invulnerable save that the MoCA mentions, because that comes specifically from the MoT (NOT the MoCA) and he will only ever have a 5+ invul; the bit in the MoCA talking about the increased invul from the MoT is therefore rendered obsolete.

It's either that or he actually does have the MoT, and the bit talking about it in the MoCA suddenly becomes important and he gets the 4+ invul that everyone who has fielded Abaddon has been using.

MoCA gives the same effect as having the MoT without being/having MoT.

Though the point is moot when you consider Abaddon normally has an invulnerable save.

-Game starts

-MoCA is cross checked with Abaddon's wargear (does he normally have an invuln save? He normally has terminator armour granting a 5++ save) and improves the normally present save by 1.

-Game progresses until the Vindicare pops Abaddon's armour removing his invuln save.

-MoCA can be cross checked again and again but the same answer will always be present (does he normally have an invuln save? He normally wears terminator armour granting a 5++ save)

As no option exists for power-armoured or naked Abaddon he will never get the latent invuln save from MoCA as he normally has his terminator armour.
MoCA doesn't care if he later misplaces his armour as under normal circumstances he would be clad in 5++ goodness.

MoCA gives the same effect as having the MoT without being/having MoT.

Please state where you are seeing this.

MoCA specifically states that "Because of the Mark of Tzeentch, the invulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+"

MoCA does NOT increase the inuvlnerable save, Mark of Tzeentch does, this is printed in black and white and has been qutoed directly from the codex several times.

If MoCA provided it, it would say 'Because of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant...', but it does not, and nowhere does it state that MoCA provides any sort of save, increased or otherwise, nor does it state that MoCA takes the place of MoT.

Again, please state where you are getting the ideas that MoCA takes over the job of handing out the increased invul save or has the same effect as MoT, because i'm sat here with the codex on my lap reading and re-reading the rule and there is nothing in here about the MoCA replacing any marks or giving out their abilities in their stead. All I can see are assumptions.

Avatar 720 wrote:

MoCA gives the same effect as having the MoT without being/having MoT.

Please state where you are seeing this.

"now bears a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts"

Also the name of the Mark itself seemed to state that it is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

Okay, lets pretend that MoCA grants MoT.

Even so, how do you rationalize the whole "normally has an invul save" portion of the rule?

Until a special rule comes out that Specifically counters any given Mark, none of this matters.

Abaddon has Termie armor.
Termie Armor Grants a 5++.
Abaddon does not have the base 5++ that other lords enjoy.
Abaddon has a Mark that at least mimics, if not fully is the MoT.
Abaddon's termie invul Save is thus brought "up" to a 4++.
If a Shield Breaker round strikes Abaddon, he will be left with no invul Save.
MoT in full, or in effect, will not grant the 5++ to any model that already has an invul save when the game starts(The Mark does 1 OR the other) should that invul save be removed somehow in game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exegy - no, he does NOT have all 4 marks. He has, for the last time, MoCA, which *in fluff* is a bit like all 4, but in actuality isnt. This is one reason he doesnt have a poisoned, ID causing weapon rolling 2D6 additional attacks which also shoot in the shooting phase.

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

I now know that tonight when i play 40k tonight i'm going to play Abaddon and argue he gets all of those things. I'll pose that he has all the marks and has a demon weapon. I'll show the typhus FAQ about poisined weapons and mark of nurgle. Let's see if i can run that bs.

Or is that just wrong?

weather the MoCA mimics of actually gives the MoT, Abbaddon won't have any Invuln after a vindicare hits him so it's a moot point.

I'd take it as does the model start the game with an invulnerable save.
If yes then MoCA/MoT improves that save by 1.
If no then MoCA/MoT grants an invuln save.

You could even go as far as to have MoCA/MoT check the codex itself for the base abilities (no optionals) and if any grant an invuln save then that can be considered the norm for that model.

Abaddon has his terminator armour as a base choice, therefore it is normal for him to have an invulnerable save. Whether or not that save is later removed in some fashion does not revoke the fact that he normally has an invulnerable save.

As for whether MoCA is or is not MoT (or contains it in some way) the arguement is moot. MoT improves a normally present Invuln save by one or grants an invuln save if the model does not.

Abaddon (because that was the OP's example) normally has an invuln save, he comes with it by nature of purchasing him via his codex entry.
As there are no options for him to be purchased without his invulnerable save then it is a given that the norm for Abaddon is to have an invulnerable save.

kirsanth wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

MoCA gives the same effect as having the MoT without being/having MoT.

Please state where you are seeing this.

"now bears a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts"

Also the name of the Mark itself seemed to state that it is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

Fluff=/=rules. It also fails to state what 'gifts' are. If it had said "that combines all the marks" then fair enough, but it doesn't, there is nothing in the actual rules of the mark that indicates that the MoCA takes the place of any mark.

Please note that I do not believe this grants him an invul save after his first is removed, that's fine by me; he has termie armour so normally has an invul save that is then removed which is a perfectly rational argument; what I disagree with is people saying he does not have the MoT.

By the rules a model cannot have more than one mark.

Editing redundance.

kirsanth wrote:By the rules a model cannot have more than one mark.

Editing redundance.

Where is this said? Page 25 explains the marks but makes no mention of them being single use per model. Lords, princes and Sorcerers may only have 1 mark each, but they are seperate profiles and have no bearing on the rules for any other model.

The description of them. Of course Mr. A has only one mark also -- so every unit/model that can have a mark can have A mark.

/shrug

Avatar - find a rule, that isnt in the MoCA rules, that says he has MoT

SPecial rules, wargear, etc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Avatar - find a rule, that isnt in the MoCA rules, that says he has MoT

SPecial rules, wargear, etc.

So you're basically saying this:

Prove that it says he has MoT, but you aren't allowed to use the actual proof.

What you're asking me to do is completely inane and nonsensical.

A better idea is this: prove that 'a unique mark' is not 'a mark' but rather 4 different marks.

The special rule is "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" not "Marks of Chaos Ascendant".

The fluff you discount is also the fluff that agrees with you by proving you wrong.

/boggle

Avatrar - the point is this: the MoCA is what provides the save. He does NOT have MoT, as NOWHERE in his wargear is that listed.

PRove that he gets all 4 marks individually, and you have just proven he has a poisoned, ID causing 2D6 attack weapon. In direct contravention of his rules.

How about we just call the GK codex shenanigans and move on?

MoT in full, or in effect, will not grant the 5++ to any model that already has an invul save when the game starts

The rule sates "Normally" not at the start of the game, how do we define normally? Rulebook says squat.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Avatrar - the point is this: the MoCA is what provides the save. He does NOT have MoT, as NOWHERE in his wargear is that listed.

PRove that he gets all 4 marks individually, and you have just proven he has a poisoned, ID causing 2D6 attack weapon. In direct contravention of his rules.

MoCA does not provide the save, where does it say that the save comes from MoCA? Nowhere! It says it comes from the MoT.

As for the daemon weapons, that's BS, it specifically says next to each Daemon Weapon "(Lords with the Mark of ______)". Is Abaddon a Chaos Lord? No, he is not, therefore he does not get the benefits of those daemon weapons.

Avatar 720 wrote: Is Abaddon a Chaos Lord? No, he is not, therefore he does not get the benefits of those daemon weapons.

Now I get it.

Apologies for responding with less attention to the RAW-silliness thread.

Editing to add:
Your point is no less valid for the silliness, unfortunately it is no more valid either.

GW has repeatedly shown that rule listed = rule allowance given.
See: DoM, Swarmlord, Deathleaper, Vehicle cover saves, anything GW has printed, etc.

The mark (singular) that Abaddon has is listed as combining the marks and their effects. Then describes what that means.
This does not change that they are describing A MARK.
Nor does it change that the "fluff" can be ignored only if you arbitrairily claim it as being fluff.

I say the bit you reference describing the Mark of Nurgle's effect on this new mark, the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, is fluff.
You say the bit that I reference describing the Mark of Chaos Ascendant as containing the other marks is fluff.
Daemon weapons make your assertion extra strange, especially because he has one.

If he has no Mark of Tzeentch, then he has no increased invulnerable to start with, and the "Because of the Mark of Tzeentch..." sentence is rendered obsolete due to the Mark of Tzeentch not being present.

This would mean that Abaddon has been played incorrectly for a good few years, and should have only ever had the 5+ invulnerable from his Terminator Armour, because MoCA does not specifically give him any save or save modifiers.

Otherwise, because of the passage in the MoCA about the Mark of Tzeentch giving the modifier and the sentence about how it works coupled with the years of playing him as having a 4+ invulnerable save with nothing to say otherwise, he has to have the MoT.

they should have spelled out the rules more clearly, like Archon the Everchosen's rules in the WoC book.

his rules were different from the actual marks and they were 100% specific about the effects.

he isn't given any of the marks, but has almost the same benifits.

Avatar - yet Typhus gets a poisoned force weapon. Gee, sounds like the lord of the black legion is probably a Chaos Lord, same as the lord of the host is a Chaos Lord

The MoCA has all 4 marks combined, one of those effects is to increase the save by 1. DOne.

Yet the effect of the MOT is there, but only the ability to increase his invun by one? Where does it state that's all the MOT does for abbadon? It only states that due to the mark, his invun is +1, meaning he has the mark with its full effects.

Back to what I stated before hand:

The rule for MOT states "Normally" not at the start of the game, how do we define normally? Rulebook says squat. Is normally the models base equipment? Is it looked at on a turn by turn basis? We don't know.

juraigamer wrote:

MoT in full, or in effect, will not grant the 5++ to any model that already has an invul save when the game starts

The rule sates "Normally" not at the start of the game, how do we define normally? Rulebook says squat.

The same way we define the myriad of other words GW uses in the codex; by using a dictionary. It's not an ideal method but as the BGB doesn't define many words it falls upon the reader to default to the english language and therefore the definitions found within an english dictionary.

[nawr-muh-lee]
–adverb
1. in a normal or regular way: The wound is healing normally.
2. according to rule, general custom, etc.; as a rule; ordinarily; usually.

The regular way to field Abaddon is with terminator armor granting a 5++ save.
The regular way to purchase Abaddon via codex for use in a game includes his 5++ terminator armor
-or to go as far as
According to the rule laid out in the codex, Abaddon is fielded at all times with a suit of terminator armor granting a 5++ save

To me that's a solid definition of normally and when referenced via MoCA it's clear that he gets the save increase but will not get the baseline MoTesque save should he lose his armor due to the Shield breaker round.

As for the other quandry, MoCA applies the rules found via each god's mark in the wargear section. The fact that the MoCA says he gets the MoTesque modifier from the mark of Tzeentch is fluff, it's just a means of showing the reader what powers the MoCA draws from and how they are applied. MoCA itself is a unique rule that gives 3 statline benefits and a save modifier that mirror each of the individual chaos marks; it is not an application of 4 seperate marks.

I have to agree with fox on this normal more than likely refers to the fact that he has no option to not have an invulnerable save. Therefore he should not get the extra 5++ because he normally does have a save but due to some very rare and uncommon ability he has had his terminator invuln removed. When he has had the termi invuln removed he still normally has an invuln, hi will just not function the rest of the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Avatar - yet Typhus gets a poisoned force weapon. Gee, sounds like the lord of the black legion is probably a Chaos Lord, same as the lord of the host is a Chaos Lord

The MoCA has all 4 marks combined, one of those effects is to increase the save by 1. DOne.

Just because Typhus gets one does NOT mean Abaddon gets one, furthermore Typhus' was FAQed to include it whereas Abaddon's was not. If Typhus had to be FAQed, then he obviously was not counted as a Chaos Lord until then, and since Abaddon has not been FAQed, he is not a Chaos Lord and cannot obtain the daemon weapon affects associated with the marks he has.

MoCA is all 4 marks combined, but MoCA is not listed as giving the increased save, this is what I have trying to tell you! Tell me where you see the MoCA rule saying that it (the MoCA itself) gives any sort of save or save modifier, because the only line in that rule which mentions saves is where it says that it comes from the MoT.

FAQ /= errata.

Fluff /= Rules. Anything else?

here we play Abbaddon as just getting double his Str and the attacks from his Deamon weapon. and rerolls to wound from the Talon