Just wanted to know what people thin about them

Very competetive. Not quite as high as Dark Eldar and Imperial Gaurd, but still very good.

Competitive? Not really.
This is my impression from having a first look into the codex.
Grey Knights die from shooting like normal Marines.
Their rending shooting weapons are nice but rending got nerfed.

Stormbolters and Powerweapons for 10pts per 5 marines or 30 per 10 marines, YES PLEASE!
Very effective against both Hordes and MEQ, No melta weaponry, but the Psycannon is such a nice weapon and I feel it definitely makes up for it. Especially in the contex of the entire codex, you torrent vehicles down instead of bluntly blowing them up with Melta's.
I feel no current codex plays the midfield game better (and that's what 5th is all about, if you still haven't noticed).

Grey Knights die from shooting like normal Marines.

Certainly, but they also kill the enemy faster, so in later turns you receive less damage...

You can build an army that plays the long range game very successfully as well.

Quick and powerful assault based lists are also possible

There's just tons you can do with this codex. Much of it will prove effective competetively.

This codex is easily up there with Wolves/BA/Guard. Good thing too, perhaps we'll see some dilution of the common tournament armies....some spreading around of the races so to speak.

I feel no codex plays the midfield game better (and that's what h5th is all about, if you still haven't noticed).

This seems to be the truth and eventually makes GKs playable at the competitive level.
On the other hand, fast armies like mech Eldar eventually fly circles around a midfield GK army shooting it at leisure.

wuestenfux wrote:

I feel no codex plays the midfield game better (and that's what h5th is all about, if you still haven't noticed).

This seems to be the truth and eventually makes GKs playable at the competitive level.
On the other hand, fast armies like mech Eldar eventually fly circles around a midfield GK army shooting it at leisure.

When you're midfeild it's much harder to avoid psycannon fire for your opponent, unless he wants to restrict himself to the 6 or so inch area on the right/left sides where he would be out of range after your troops' movement.

That's hardly flying circles around a GK army...and the point of being midfeild with it.

Oh yea...and those psyflemen that are so popular right now? Kill eldar skimmers dead, and that's 4' range. Fly around that.

Deadshane1 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

I feel no codex plays the midfield game better (and that's what h5th is all about, if you still haven't noticed).

This seems to be the truth and eventually makes GKs playable at the competitive level.
On the other hand, fast armies like mech Eldar eventually fly circles around a midfield GK army shooting it at leisure.

When you're midfeild it's much harder to avoid psycannon fire for your opponent, unless he wants to restrict himself to the 6 or so inch area on the right/left sides where he would be out of range after your troops' movement.

That's hardly flying circles around a GK army...and the point of being midfeild with it.

Oh yea...and those psyflemen that are so popular right now? Kill eldar skimmers dead, and that's 4' range. Fly around that.

This also seems to be true - I got the codex yesterday...
But Eldar has means (runes of withnessing) to shoot down GK psychic powers.

And GK have means (Vindicare Assassin) to shoot down Eldar Farseers.

GK psychic powers are nice...but that doesnt have to be "the army". Not with psybolts laying all around.

Fafnir wrote:And GK have means (Vindicare Assassin) to shoot down Eldar Farseers.

Better keep the Farseer safe and try in a Serpent since the runes have infinite range.

I think we'll have a better understanding of where the GKs are within the scope of the competitive scene once we start seeing tourney reports giving us the details of what units work best, and good combos and synergy for GK lists to work off of.

wuestenfux wrote:

Fafnir wrote:And GK have means (Vindicare Assassin) to shoot down Eldar Farseers.

Better keep the Farseer safe and try in a Serpent since the runes have infinite range.

I played against a BA player who brings his storm ravens against me several times with GKs. With 3 Prifflemen dreads, at least one of his stormravens is dead on first turn, and if I don't get his other one on turn one, its gone on turn 2. You can't really hide from 48" range dual S8 autocannons, or from shunting 30" psycannons (on interceptors) for long (or at all). Most eldar lists I've seen recently have 2-4 grav tanks, and they aren't any more durable than a stormraven (well, the falcon usually has holofields, but that isn't as common or as good as it used to be). Keeping that farseer safe is a lot harder than it seems.

Competitive? Very. Purifier spam and termy armies abound, and all the 30" shunting means no-one is safe. Also great for contesting objectives.

GK can build a solid all comers list that is well tooled to be a hard counter against many common MEQ armies. GK armies tooled to kill MEQ armies will have some difficulty with IG, DE, Tau, and Eldar, but the situation just going uphill a bit instead of being far from hopeless. The thing is most tournament armies are MEQ which is far more common than DE or IG. Regular eldar are somewhat of a rare sight, and Tau are a very rare sight (I usually table tau with chaos and DOA)

Most opponents are MEQ, and with most opponents being MEQ in the hands of the right player GK have an excellent chance of winning a tournament. Hopefully with the GK codex out there we will see more DE, Tau, Eldar, and IG but it will take a while for the meta game to adapt.

Well, with the psybolt aminition dreadnought being comparable with the SW long fangs I think it is shure to say that for 405 points you will be abel to compete in the long range department.

Also, the psycannon for regular units running at 110 points, (115 if you want a halberd (I think it looks like a good adition vs fellow marines and other things)) is very good if you compare it to the SW 5 man squad + wolf guard melta+combi melta and banner at 113 points. Both work very well in a rhino.

Onbiusly the SW are better against mech and hordes, but the GK have 12" more range of death enshuring that they can fall back vs hordes, or have a bigger threath buble vs mech. An eldar player will have trouble doding 4 rhinos with 24" range each vs the 12" space wolves for 460 points. Back that up with the dreadnoughts and for 865 points you got quite a long and dangerush reach.

Of course that might not even be an optimal build. GK can do all sorts of things, but that will be the "worst" you will meet in any compative GK list (although I would think dreads + lazorspam would also seem verry sweet.)

GK have purifiers, so they have the tools to handle horde.

The weakness of a GK army that's tooled to kill MEQ is being both outgunned and outmaneuvered by some armies.

The weakness of a henchman army that's tooled to kill mech (6 psyfleman + 6 henchmen razorbacks) would be a fast assault army like a DOA army.

Went 3-0 at a tournament yesterday w/GK's yesterday in a KP only tournament running 17 KP's. And took best general instead of overall because my army isn't anywhere near painted yet. Only 1 opponent had more than a single unit left on the table at the end of the game. I played against IG, SW's, and Tyrannids.

I think GK's are going to be a very solid and very competitive codex w/a ridiculous amounts of builds. The strength of my list rests on 10-man Strike squads w/Psybolt Ammo. But there will be a ton of options out there once people really dive in.

I simply think it's too early to tell.

My opinion is however that once they're used a bit more, it'll be a simple case of them being powerful, but only really tournament-competitive in the hands of a skilled player. I don't think they'll be on the pick-up-and-play level of IG/SW/BA, but more akin to Nids on the power-level in that when used correctly, they'll be very powerful but otherwise largely unforgiving.

I also think the title should have a question mark and 'thin' should say think, but that's another thing all together...

this is interesting a lot of people have told me that grey knights look like MEQ same armor as MEQ and die like MEQ
anyone else agree?

All armies are competitive in one way or another, but situational discussions aside, they appear to make an excellent all-round strength TAC list that has a clear tradeoff in the form of points costs!

wuestenfux, my fellow Mech Eldar player - I am not so confident! Psycannons, being S7, penetrate on a 6 so they essentially work exactly as normal As.Cannons without Energy Fields in effect... plus they glance on a 5 too! S5 storm bolters also ruin Eldar from up to half the board away when they get out of their vehicles to try and soak them in wounds, although this option is not prevalent in the tougher builds I've seen thus far.
Eldar Psykers are not really combat characters so for the most part they aren't too worried about GKs, and Runes of Warding are brilliant. Don't get cocky though - they are an elite army that can make a hell of a mess up close or from a distance.

I've found that they are much more balanced against my Daemons than they used to be, to my surprise! They were intimidating at first but once I learned to get a solid jump on them I started doing fine.

Considering that there has not been enough time to even evaluate the competitiveness of the Grey Knights codex, isn't this a bit premature?

Granted that it may be a bit early to call but i think that we can get a general understanding of how competative they are

It's never too early to discuss what we've learned so far. If you really depend on an internet forum to tell you how the army plays then maybe you should get out and play a few games against them yourself - after all, not all serious competitive players use forums anyway.

Just the loud-mouthed ones.

I've seen Grey Knights table Guard (just as I predicted!), and yet I've tabled them with my Chaos Daemons (when I expected to lose rather badly). I'm quite happy with how balanced they seem to be in my experience so far. They're a good challenging army to play against, and although I don't play them myself... I wouldn't want to play against myself using them!

Impresive hulksmash! Can I ask you what sort of list you where fielding that beated mech so thurowly? My one oponent always play mech, I think I never have wonn with my tyranids. :(

Yes yes do tell

Hulksmash wrote:Went 3-0 at a tournament yesterday w/GK's yesterday in a KP only tournament running 17 KP's. And took best general instead of overall because my army isn't anywhere near painted yet. Only 1 opponent had more than a single unit left on the table at the end of the game. I played against IG, SW's, and Tyrannids.

I think GK's are going to be a very solid and very competitive codex w/a ridiculous amounts of builds. The strength of my list rests on 10-man Strike squads w/Psybolt Ammo. But there will be a ton of options out there once people really dive in.

What was the points limit?

Anti-mech is actually one of GK's best strengths - that's why I predicted they would counter Guard so well - and part of why they're a naturally flexible army in the 5thEd environment!

People really tend to underestimate just how much mobile firepower they put out, and the fact that they jump on anything below AV14 with ease and no meltaguns makes them quite original too. Running them on foot you can match another MEQ's model count and level the playing field by quickly sorting out his armour.

Damn it, I'll talk myself into getting them if I keep up like this. I have to admit that although I've been playing against very competitive players with GK, they're obviously still getting around the new army themselves. So far, though, they've been great to challenge and it'll only get 'worse'. I really recommend that people challenge as many GK players as possible.

Point limit was 2,000. The level I think all 5th edition codexes are balanced for. The list looked like this:

2xInquisitors w/TA, Psycannon, Servo Skull
2xSingle Paladin w/Hammer
10 Purifiers w/4 Pyscannons, 6 Halberds, Rhino
5 Warrior Accolytes w/Rhino
2x10 Strike Squads w/Hammer, 2 Psycannon, PsyAmmo, Rhino
10 Strike Squad w/2 Psycannon, PsyAmmo, Rhino
7 Interceptors w/PsyAmmo, Hammer
Dread w/Dual AC's, PsyAmmo
Dread w/Assault Cannon, PsyAmmo, Auto-Cannon

It's got a lot of tweaking still to come but it was my starting point. The warriors were basically a tax so I could combat squad the Purifiers. Worked out pretty well.

I would have put:
feth grey knights! they are overpowered cheapshots specifically designed to nerf all xenos armies back to the stone age!

unfortunately there was no option for that.

honestly, a 2+ invulnerable save should cost at least 60 points, and even then it should only be available to one model per army.

it almost seems like GW is putting out codex after codex for space marine chapters for the express purpos of making xenos forces uncompetitive. blood angels shot down tau, and now GK is screwing over eldar. don't believe me? grey knights use a lot of psychic powers, eldar would normally counter that with runes of warding. but oh, no. they had to ruin that too with the culexus ASSho- sorry assassin. in fact, the entire GK army seems to be anti psychic oriented. In my view, matt ward not only makes atrocious fluff, but the rules he writes are really unbalanced.

@WBE

Started to type a response in depth but I couldn't do it without sounding rude. I'll just stick with you have zero understanding of the codex or game balance as it currently stands. I'm hoping your trolling.....

Whirling Blade Exarch wrote:
honestly, a 2+ invulnerable save should cost at least 60 points, and even then it should only be available to one model per army.

Without pointing out the minor errors in the rest of the post. That 2+ invulnerable? Only applies in CC.

Whirling Blade Exarch wrote:
honestly, a 2+ invulnerable save should cost at least 60 points, and even then it should only be available to one model per army.

It's limited to one per unit, it only works in close combat, and it's already expensive enough as it is. Stop overexaggerating and play better.

The strength of the codex seems to be in that most of your base units are effective in both the shooting and assault phase equally and being able to combine them lets them take units off the board fast. And although any pysker heavy or daemon heavy army is at a disadvantage dark eldar, IG, should do just fine against them. Also I think with the amount of long range fire and ability to mass shoot, competent Tau players should give GK a run for their money.

Thanks Hulksmash. It looks very diferent then my list. I glued together a lott of terminators but it turns out they are a point sink! (They are scoring 2+ though...)

Exarch, it is only 2++ in close combat. Nids throws bodies at it and everybody else shoots it. I honestly think DE shadow fields are better. (And they are cheap cheap cheap.)

I agree with ^

I am aware that it is a 2+ in cc only. I suppose a more accurate question would be what the feth I'm supposed to point at that. fire dragons could work, but they are only viable when mechanized and GK kills mechanized as we have already discussed. I can only see it working from the back of a wraithlord and then two shots would not kill most of the models allowed to have one (due to the number of wounds).

the other thing about GK's natural anti mech capabilities in relation to eldar is that vs all other armies, mechdar is the only consistantly viable option (with a few exceptions). so If you're using mechdar in a tournament, you'd better damn well hope you don't run into a GK opponent.

my point about matt ward codexes in general still stands. they always seem to target a specific army or be totally unbalanced. phil kelly at least makes his codexes require extensive strategy.

and his background sucks nurgle's balls

sorry to rant, but right now I would love to shove a nice, sharp powersword up matt ward's double-hindquarters.

Whirling Blade Exarch wrote:I am aware that it is a 2+ in cc only. I suppose a more accurate question would be what the feth I'm supposed to point at that. fire dragons could work, but they are only viable when mechanized and GK kills mechanized as we have already discussed. I can only see it working from the back of a wraithlord and then two shots would not kill most of the models allowed to have one (due to the number of wounds).

How do you kill terminators with a 3+ inv save? None of your options work for them either.

I always killed them with War Walkers with Scatter Lasers, and Dire Avengers.

I am afraid to play my Tau against these guys. The idea of multiple squads of interceptors, and a dreadknight or two sitting w/in 12" of me before the game even starts makes me cringe. Where it used to be an easy game if I had first turn, it will be damn near impossible if I don't have it. (Right now the only counter to the 30" scout shunt is to make the classic wall o' skimmers (but this assures the loss of my hammerheads and mobility)

Whirling Blade Exarch wrote:I am aware that it is a 2+ in cc only. I suppose a more accurate question would be what the feth I'm supposed to point at that. fire dragons could work, but they are only viable when mechanized and GK kills mechanized as we have already discussed. I can only see it working from the back of a wraithlord and then two shots would not kill most of the models allowed to have one (due to the number of wounds).

the other thing about GK's natural anti mech capabilities in relation to eldar is that vs all other armies, mechdar is the only consistantly viable option (with a few exceptions). so If you're using mechdar in a tournament, you'd better damn well hope you don't run into a GK opponent.

my point about matt ward codexes in general still stands. they always seem to target a specific army or be totally unbalanced. phil kelly at least makes his codexes require extensive strategy.

and his background sucks nurgle's balls

sorry to rant, but right now I would love to shove a nice, sharp powersword up matt ward's double-hindquarters.

Cowboy up or GTFO.

Grey Knights are here to stay.

It's not that bad Chicken Little.

wuestenfux, my fellow Mech Eldar player - I am not so confident! Psycannons, being S7, penetrate on a 6 so they essentially work exactly as normal As.Cannons without Energy Fields in effect... plus they glance on a 5 too! S5 storm bolters also ruin Eldar from up to half the board away when they get out of their vehicles to try and soak them in wounds, although this option is not prevalent in the tougher builds I've seen thus far.
Eldar Psykers are not really combat characters so for the most part they aren't too worried about GKs, and Runes of Warding are brilliant. Don't get cocky though - they are an elite army that can make a hell of a mess up close or from a distance.

Arctik_Firangi, after reading the codex, yesterday, I'm not so confident either.
Runes of warding is brilliant as long as the Farseer cannot be targeted.
If she can, she might be gone.
Let's see if I can get some playtest - otherwise I'll eventually meet them at the upcoming GT:

I wonder how they would face up against deathwing with a librarian with pre nerfed psychic hood still affecting the whole board. Also I love all termie armies.

Orock wrote:I wonder how they would face up against deathwing with a librarian with pre nerfed psychic hood still affecting the whole board. Also I love all termie armies.

GK would likely own deathwing. Warpquake makes a very small board to drop onto, especially if the GKs go first. The 12" bubble is a tad excessive, IMO. I hesitate to call certain things broken, but that single ability invalidates a whole lot of stuff from other armies.

In fact, a GK army spreading out and using warpquake would make it hard for a deep striking army to come very close.

How about those Inquisitors? Would you field one (which one?) in a GK army without Henchmen?

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, a GK army spreading out and using warpquake would make it hard for a deep striking army to come very close.

You can actually make it impossible for a deep striking army to deploy without mishapping with the first turn and the right list.

Fafnir wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, a GK army spreading out and using warpquake would make it hard for a deep striking army to come very close.

You can actually make it impossible for a deep striking army to deploy without mishapping with the first turn and the right list.

There is a very big diference between a theoreticaly posabilaty and one person actualy showing up with so many intersceptor squads as one needs to do this. And then they have to meet a DS army. And even if all of this happends, he has to winn the dice roll and he also needs to sucsesfully cast all those warp quakes. I am not so scared by it. However, warp quake in your own deployment sone vs drop pods have gotten med nervus.

However, warp quake in your own deployment sone vs drop pods have gotten med nervus.

What is warp quake doing vs a drop pod that is immobilized anyway when it arrives?

wuestenfux wrote:

Fafnir wrote:And GK have means (Vindicare Assassin) to shoot down Eldar Farseers.

Better keep the Farseer safe and try in a Serpent since the runes have infinite range.

Safe? 4D6+3 AP penetrator rounds? Not safe for long methinks.

feild 2 vindicares, 3 if you want.

No.1- Blows up tank
No.2- Takes Invun away
No.3 (or turn 2)- Instant Death shot

it may come down to alot of luck, but if it works... *shudders*

Those Vindicares are expensive.
You can eventually afford one, but two or even three?

Only one Vindicare may be fielded in any given list.

wuestenfux wrote:

However, warp quake in your own deployment sone vs drop pods have gotten med nervus.

What is warp quake doing vs a drop pod that is immobilized anyway when it arrives?

Warp Quake does not cause Deep Strikers to test for dangerous terrain - it causes them to automatically suffer a mishap!

33% chance that the pod is dead along with everything inside it is already the risk that a normal Deep Striker takes when dropping within 12" of a board edge or other unit... Pods are traditionally safe to drop near other units but you don't want to go near the 'Quake.

Kaptin Grigger wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Fafnir wrote:And GK have means (Vindicare Assassin) to shoot down Eldar Farseers.

Better keep the Farseer safe and try in a Serpent since the runes have infinite range.

Safe? 4D6+3 AP penetrator rounds? Not safe for long methinks.

feild 2 vindicares, 3 if you want.

No.1- Blows up tank
No.2- Takes Invun away
No.3 (or turn 2)- Instant Death shot

it may come down to alot of luck, but if it works... *shudders*

Except the turbo-penetrator doesn't work that well versus wave serpents. You glance if you rend and roll a 3 on the D3, as you'll only get one D6 to pen with due to the special rule called something I've forgotten ATM.

You can't get extra rending dice against Wave Serpents either. They're not 'immune' to extra Melta dice for example - it's just that you only ever roll a single D6 for armour penetration with shooting attacks against the front and side facings. Turbo-penetrators don't work at all - they can only get a 6, maximum, against the 'Serpent.

You cannot use extra dice against a wave serpent but i think because turbo pen rounds get a base ap of 4d6 it can shred the serpents.

Very competitive.

With good shooty options tied with some of the best assaulty options for MEQ's they are a hard nut to crack.

The living metal rule on Monoliths says no extra dice for armor penetration ever, but in one of the Necro FAQ's, they specifically said that the Turbo rounds still get their 4d6 pen because it's not boosted strength or boosted shooting attacks, it is the round itself. That may or may not make sense, but that's how it is.

If turbo rounds circumvent the living metal rule, they do the same to the eldar rule as well, unless one of the older eldar FAQ's forbid it

I can't wait for 'Ard Boyz....I need to win semi-finals this year so that I can get a new GK army.

On the surface of it chaos would appear to be boned by the new GKs as badly as Eldar. In practice, so long as they can deploy (that's what the warpquake is about! Denying daemon access!), the forces of chaos should be able to take the win.
Which makes my lament once again - bring back proper legions! Unfortunately this is like praying to Jesus for a satanic goat-guitar.

dont mean to go off topic but what is the prize for the ard boys

Competitive? I don't know, but I'd think... YES! Some may even say overpowered, but I'll wait until I face them to decide for myself.

doubled wrote:You cannot use extra dice against a wave serpent but i think because turbo pen rounds get a base ap of 4d6 it can shred the serpents.

This is incorrect. 'Extra' dice are not taken into consideration - against Wave Serpents you may not roll more than 1D6 for armour penetration. If the rule mentioned 'extra dice' then you might have an argument... it doesn't.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

doubled wrote:You cannot use extra dice against a wave serpent but i think because turbo pen rounds get a base ap of 4d6 it can shred the serpents.

This is incorrect. 'Extra' dice are not taken into consideration - against Wave Serpents you may not roll more than 1D6 for armour penetration. If the rule mentioned 'extra dice' then you might have an argument... it doesn't.

I don't have an Eldar codex with me. Can someone please put up the exact wording of the wave serpent rule?

wuestenfux wrote:Competitive? Not really.
This is my impression from having a first look into the codex.
Grey Knights die from shooting like normal Marines.
Their rending shooting weapons are nice but rending got nerfed.

Agreed normal marines struggle with heavy casualties but say one defiler takes a sqaud your GK suffer massively and rending is nerfed qouted for truth

omerakk wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

doubled wrote:You cannot use extra dice against a wave serpent but i think because turbo pen rounds get a base ap of 4d6 it can shred the serpents.

This is incorrect. 'Extra' dice are not taken into consideration - against Wave Serpents you may not roll more than 1D6 for armour penetration. If the rule mentioned 'extra dice' then you might have an argument... it doesn't.

I don't have an Eldar codex with me. Can someone please put up the exact wording of the wave serpent rule?

Uh... I basically just did.

"All ranged attacks never roll more than +1d6 for their armour penetration"

The turbo rounds might actually work then.

That rule is almost worded the exact same as the monolith living metal rule; which even goes one step further and adds in for close combat attacks; but for some reason, the turbo rounds still get to use 4d6 penetration on them.

I'd like to think they can't do the same to wave serpents, but it doesn't seem likely to allow them to ignore one vehicle's special rule and not the other as well

omerakk wrote:The turbo rounds might actually work then.

That rule is almost worded the exact same as the monolith living metal rule; which even goes one step further and adds in for close combat attacks; but for some reason, the turbo rounds still get to use 4d6 penetration on them.

I'd like to think they can't do the same to wave serpents, but it doesn't seem likely to allow them to ignore one vehicle's special rule and not the other as well

As it stands, the Exitus Rifle is Strength X and the Turbo-Penetrator normally rolls 4d6 for armour penetration.

It's a ranged attack, so if you roll more than a single die against the WS then you're choosing to ignore a pretty clear rule.

Monoliths do not allow 'additional' penetration dice - this does not restrict the Turbo-Penetrator from working. It is worded completely differently.

S7 rending does the same damage as S7 non rending against AV12 or less. The rending on S7 only has an effect on AV13 or higher. Psycannons are just autocannons against eldar vehicles.

GK says base damage is 4D6 on a turbo penetrator. Eldar says never roll more than 1D6 for penetration against a wave serpent. It's a clear case of a restrictive rule contradicting a permissive rule, in such a case the restrictive rule trumps the permissive rule. Debate is over.

Celexus assassin gains no real bonus against eldar besides an extra assault 1 per psyker within 12". Against units of psykers I think it's going to be FAQ'd that it's an extra 1 assault per unit psyker or unit of psykers, not per member of the unit. If the assassin gets to count each individual warlock in a seer council the assassin gets to count each individual psyker in a henchman squad because the ability is for each psyker friend or foe. That loophole would lead to packing 3 transports full of 8 psykers each and the gun would then because S5 AP1 Assault 26 fired at a BS of 8.

As far as runes of warding goes GK are going to have a really hard time killing a Falcon with a holo field moving flat out with the farseer inside. Psycannons and Psyfleman dreads will have a hell of a hard time dealing with a holofield falcon with a 4+ cover save. Best case scenario would be to use a vindicator, but at T4 and 3+ cover save they are easy pickings for an eldar army.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Competitive? I don't know, but I'd think... YES! Some may even say overpowered, but I'll wait until I face them to decide for myself.

I don't think they're overpowered. They're certainly a very strong codex that can build at least 2-3 different competitive armies. I'd say they're right up in line with SW/BA/IG. I don't think that they break the game by any stretch. Many armies will need to be tweaked/changed a bit to cope with them, but then when hasn't the meta changed in the wake of a new 5th edition codex? This is a natural evolution of any game system that adopts new pieces/rules/etc, and is absolutely NOT a bad thing.

Hulksmash wrote:Point limit was 2,000. The level I think all 5th edition codexes are balanced for. The list looked like this:

2xInquisitors w/TA, Psycannon, Servo Skull
2xSingle Paladin w/Hammer
10 Purifiers w/4 Pyscannons, 6 Halberds, Rhino
5 Warrior Accolytes w/Rhino
2x10 Strike Squads w/Hammer, 2 Psycannon, PsyAmmo, Rhino
10 Strike Squad w/2 Psycannon, PsyAmmo, Rhino
7 Interceptors w/PsyAmmo, Hammer
Dread w/Dual AC's, PsyAmmo
Dread w/Assault Cannon, PsyAmmo, Auto-Cannon

It's got a lot of tweaking still to come but it was my starting point. The warriors were basically a tax so I could combat squad the Purifiers. Worked out pretty well.

Can you give us a run down (generally) of the lists you played, or even better a short bat rep? I'm not saying that army is bad but I can't imagine it tabling IG. I'd be curious to see the cirucumstances that lead to the results.

imho i do think that the turbo penetrator should get to use the 4d6 for armor pen because i think that its the strength of the weapon ( if you get what i mean )

Alright, well, it seems like it's vague enough that both sides have an argument. Someone needs to start a new thread to discuss that further; we have hijacked this one enough.

On topic, as of now, I think they have all of the tools to be competitive, but they are a difficult army to play properly, so you won't see the massive amount of rookie players showing up and placing well in tournaments like we have with other armies.

I would say give it at least 3 months and an faq to really see what gks are capable of

indeed i agree with ^ i belive that some people will create the " leafblower" equevalent to the GK and people will start to realive whats good in a build and what should not be taken ........ were all looking at you bjorn <.<

I think GK will soon rise to the highest levels simply by the fact that they totally dominate MEQ armies due to halberds.

They have better shooting than marine squads, better ability to kill armored opponents and for a base squad with only 2 psycannons + hammer they're 20 pts more. For less than the cost of a power fist you get ALL power weapons, stormbolters and psychic powers. Its huge codex creep. Before saying theyre "expensive" you need to calculate the entire unit cost. For example, on paper purifiers are 8 pts more than a tactical squad but once you calculate full squad cost (IE free vet sarg and 20 pt discount on a hammer) the real result is 3.5 pts more

GKs who lose in CC to other marines (units not the army in general) got massively outplayed because they should win almost all of the time in cc

Kirasu wrote:I think GK will soon rise to the highest levels simply by the fact that they totally dominate MEQ armies due to halberds.

They have better shooting than marine squads, better ability to kill armored opponents and for a base squad with only 2 psycannons + hammer they're 20 pts more. For less than the cost of a power fist you get ALL power weapons, stormbolters and psychic powers. Its huge codex creep. Before saying theyre "expensive" you need to calculate the entire unit cost. For example, on paper purifiers are 8 pts more than a tactical squad but once you calculate full squad cost (IE free vet sarg and 20 pt discount on a hammer) the real result is 3.5 pts more

GKs who lose in CC to other marines (units not the army in general) got massively outplayed because they should win almost all of the time in cc

News flash: tactical marines suck. Every marine codex that has come out since C:SM has had better troops. It is a fact of life. Also, your point about GK never losing to other marines if they play smart just isn't true.

SW and BA will give GK a run for their money in close combat with just basic troops. In fact, I wouldn't want to put the average strike squad against the average grey hunters or assault marines unit because it would be too close of a fight.

GK may not be perfectly balanced against every army, but they are actually very well balanced against other marine armies. The only thing I think may not be fair is SM troop choices, as scouts and tactics just don't compare to what the other armies get. But that has been a fact of life for years now, and the codex as a whole has a myriad of flexible choices for dealing with just about any situation.

Yes in, one or two instances GK get some unique power that the others can't match (warp quake and teleport shunt perhaps). But if you take a look at the bigger picture of codex vs codex, it isn't unbalanced compared to the abilities of other marines.

A ten man unit of GKs (strike squad) with all halberds vs. a 10 man assault squad from ba comes out to this

GKs have 11? attacks and get hammerhand off
6 hits 4 wounds

Ba attack back with 6 basic attacks 2x melta and PF
3 hits
1 wounds
0 failed saves
PF strikes 2 attacks
1 hit
1 wound

GKs win 4-1
That is without either side charging with a basic ba assault squad setup and an extremely expensive setup for the Strike squad. about 235 for the ba and the GKSS with a rhino 300

Without the halberds and if the ba have a priest with a pw then they go first and cause 4 failed armor saves including priest

GKs strike back and cause 2 wounds
and BA PF comes back and scores at least one more wound givng it to ba with 5-2

Quick question, do the GKs with psycannons also have FWs?

BTW these are all rough estimates and rounded generally in favor of the GKs

Thaylen wrote:I am afraid to play my Tau against these guys. The idea of multiple squads of interceptors, and a dreadknight or two sitting w/in 12" of me before the game even starts makes me cringe. Where it used to be an easy game if I had first turn, it will be damn near impossible if I don't have it. (Right now the only counter to the 30" scout shunt is to make the classic wall o' skimmers (but this assures the loss of my hammerheads and mobility)

I'm afraid to play my tau anganist anything i play them they suck only with luck can you win anyways yeah for shelfing until new dex.

Before transports are taken into consideration, here is what I consider to be "fully" kitted out squads;

SW: 10 Grey Hunters; 2 meltas, PF, MotW, Standard. 3 attacks for standard models always. One model has a powerfist and another has 1d6+2 rending attacks, always. = 205pts.

GK: 10 Strike Squad; 2 Psycannons, 0-1 daemon hammer*, 0-10 halberds, psybolt ammo. = 240-295.
* Having a daemon hammer on a standard non-justicar model is wasteful and non competitive, IMhO.

With 9 Halberds, a Strike Squad does indeed kill a healthy 6 MEQ's. But I doubt I will ever see halberds fielded on a strike squad. Normal swords will yield the same result but the Grey Hunters kill roughly 3 MEQ's in response. If the GH get the charge, then combat will be tied (although a daemon hammer would beat a powerfist, 1 attack to 2. )

Meltaguns are amazing. Psycannons seem like a white elephant. For those 4ppm (minimum) you get benefits such as storm bolters, hammerhand and power weapons, but you also loose out.

Both are great but neither trumps the other.

N.b: BA: Trickier but... Free Fast Rhinos or Jump Packs with DoA is pretty much the clincher here. In addition, it's quite easy to gain Furious charge & Feel No Pain for BA.

Thanks for the above post so I dont have to do a similar post.

lol "News Flash": I wasnt talking about tactical marines.. The word "marine" can mean anything that is in power armor and is a marine.. They all have the same stats, all that varies is the # of attacks generally.

10 Gks attacks > 30 space wolf attacks which I dont see how that isn't a lot better. Especially if you get to shoot with those storm bolters. If you have a grandmaster you can also get counter attack, or even just purifiers as they come out to almost the same price (due to 2 pt halberd upgrades for some reason)

Im not gonna run mathammer since most people can do simple calculations on their own, but even against 30 space wolves charging purifiers do more wounds in close combat. Knowing that 1 purifier > 3 space wolves, yet is not 3x the price comes off as a pretty good deal to me

Again, Im not talking about worthless tactical marines (I used their point costs as comparison cause most marines are similar in price) in combat. You add up everything from relatively low point cost compared to other marines + the ability to destroy transports with massive psycannon fire + beat them in CC almost every time and you have a PRETTY uphill battle as a marine player against GK. BA have furiosos which can kick the crap out of GK in close combat if you can block hammerhand on demon hammers. SW have a bunch of I4 guys which is a serious problem when an army can match you in mid-range shooting. Dreads can do well against long fangs, and so can interceptors. Expect to compare your units against PURIFIERS as every single army imo is gonna have 1-2 units of these guys due to how amazing they are. No unit can virtually handle every single problem in the game like they can

Are they unbeatable? of course not but I think it is VERY important to realize just how powerful each unit is and why basic GK power armor units can maul other power armor units. Having proper respect for the power of your opponents units leads to less mistakes. As biker nobz showed us in 2009 Point cost is irrelevant if it kills your opponent

Psycannon spam backed up with halberds is dangerous indeed

Yes you were talking about tactical marines because that was the example you gave.

Don't jump to other units for examples when your original point was clearly about basic troops. Yes purifiers rock and alot of GK players will take them, but they are not the only army able to make specialist units scoring. Using just other marines as an example: sternguard, assault marines, terminators, bikers, dreadnoughts. And there are probably more that I missed. Don't point to purifiers as being so incredible when other armies have the ability to gain scoring units of similar power.

You know what really messes purifiers up? Other dedicated assault units and literally any AP3 or better shooting. Seriously, th/ss terminators will absolutely wreck even a pimped out purifier squad, not to mention the rest of the army along with them.

You seem to miss the point that the poster above you is saying that SW grey hunters and BA assault marines are both great units, simply for different reasons than strike squads.

Yes, GK units that are tricked out might win one on one, but they are universally more expensive when you build them to do that. More expensive units means a smaller army. Which means that those other marine armies will outnumber the GK, hence its still fair.

At the end of the day, Gk units are individually powerful, but their lower numbers is the balancing factor.

It really is an issue when the amount of firepower it would take to wipe out GK armies, is far less than for any other codex of marines.

I totaly agree with kirsau on everything he said

Kirasu wrote:Knowing that 1 purifier > 3 space wolves, yet is not 3x the price comes off as a pretty good deal to me

That's a flawed way of looking at it. The purified costs 60% more than the grey hunter, so it need to do 60% more damage between shooting and CC than the grey hunters. Just because they do more damage per model does not mean that do more damage per point.

Thaylen wrote:I am afraid to play my Tau against these guys.

Why? If anything, I'd say they're easier for Tau than other 5th ed marine books.

yea and the Eldar is an entire up hill battle from the start .... runes of warding really shuts us down and trust me its a lot harder to kill a farseer in a falcon....or wave thingy

Lets just say that if Psycannons had a 36" range, grey knights would be unstoppable. They dominate the 24" midfield moreso than any other army, with a combination of amazing saves and massive fire from Psycannons and Stormbolters (S5 at that!). They are very balanced, I've found, in that they need to be played aggressively enough to get into 24" but also defensively enough to not get swamped/tarpitted/shot in the open by everything, due to a low model count. I really like their playstyle.

And I really like how my speedy Eldar run rings around them without getting hit. That aside, I voted somewhat competitive. They're no guard - but they're damn good if played to their strengths.

The tactical Fail wrote:yea and the Eldar is an entire up hill battle from the start .... runes of warding really shuts us down and trust me its a lot harder to kill a farseer in a falcon....or wave thingy

The Librarian is the only one that Eldar really 'shut down'. GK aren't relying upon Hammerhand or Force weapons to win in CC, and psydreads/psybacks/psycannons really don't care about psychic defense of any stripe when they're blasting away at AV12. Even then, the average on 3d6 is <12, so while perils is an issue, it's relatively safe to keep casting Shrouding every turn... and 3+ cover saves on AV11-12 really shuts down Eldar AV.

Average on 3d6 is 11 i do belive

The tactical Fail wrote:Average on 3d6 is 11 i do belive

10.5

So slightly less than half of the time you still get the powers off. Unless the power is critical (and usually isn't) it means you probably shouldn't be doing it.

I think the most competitive builds that are going to come out of this codex involve Monkeybus + 1st Turn Charge. Jokaero and melta-troopers in chimeras for troops (Coteaz), with shunting Dreadknights or Stormravens (2nd turn charge, but immanent threat) able to put up a first turn CC threat. Think of it as a leafblower guard list, but instead of ordinance and Hydra dakka you'll get credible CC threat that your opponent will have to deal with before they can get at your Chimeras. If all goes as planned, your opponent won't have enough time to deal with all of your objective grabbing MSUs after they wade out of whatever you ambushed them with.

(Edited for reading rules correctly )

I'm genna go with OK, but any top tier armies are going to beat their little sliver heads in.

It's the lack of melta and the unimpressiveness of the vanilla Grey Knight, 20pts for a Marines with a Force Weapon, I'm not that scared.

Small, Far Away wrote:
It's the lack of melta and the unimpressiveness of the vanilla Grey Knight, 20pts for a Marines with a Force Weapon, I'm not that scared.

your unimpressed with the normal marine or are you compareing them to whats in the rest of the codex
IMHO they are SIGNIFICANTLY better then tactical marines i can give 5 reasons as to how they are a more scarry
than your ultra smurff

Reason #1 they have power weapons ( as you understated ) that costs about 10 points in the vanilla marine codex

Reason #2 Stormbolters .. NOT ONLY do they shoot WAY better than tactical marines But they can do it on the move AND still Assault
AND to top it off they can make them S5 so they will be shooting BETTER than a devestator squad with heavy bolters

Reason #3 Psykers yes they get the abillity to become S5 ( S10 if you have a hammer in the squad )
and trust me S5 marines is nothing to disregard ( adding to the fact that they are power weapons )
and on top of that they have warp quake .... and i love it i mean you can force a mishap on a drop pod IMO thats pretty good
and they even make teleport homers and locator beacons turn off

Reason #4 psycannons while yes not as good at killing tanks as a melta gun or killing mega nobs as a plasmagun this weapon can still do it all
its the jack of all fields in terms of effectiveness and has a WAY better range than a melta or a plasma ( while moveing )

Reason #5 halberds yes now were I6 force weapons we are faster than a space marine with furious charge ( and thats saying something imo ) and we can be stationary ( heck give us counter attack and we still get the charge and still out I them


and all of this ..... for 4 points more than a tactical marine

Hulksmash wrote:Went 3-0 at a tournament yesterday w/GK's yesterday in a KP only tournament running 17 KP's. And took best general instead of overall because my army isn't anywhere near painted yet. Only 1 opponent had more than a single unit left on the table at the end of the game. I played against IG, SW's, and Tyrannids.

I think GK's are going to be a very solid and very competitive codex w/a ridiculous amounts of builds. The strength of my list rests on 10-man Strike squads w/Psybolt Ammo. But there will be a ton of options out there once people really dive in.

As always, Hulksmash is the one with the educated opinion here. Played a game against Tyranid Hybrid of MC/Horde yesterday, tabled them on turn 4, I had 9 KP he had z-e-r-o .

Has anyone ever stopped to think of how good GKs are against other Gks? It's actually funny how over powered they are against themselves.

I pity the GK fool that gets assaulted by GK

bagtagger wrote:Has anyone ever stopped to think of how good GKs are against other Gks? It's actually funny how over powered they are against themselves.

Another reason not to take Paladins. More > Better (expensive).

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Knowing that 1 purifier > 3 space wolves, yet is not 3x the price comes off as a pretty good deal to me

That's a flawed way of looking at it. The purified costs 60% more than the grey hunter, so it need to do 60% more damage between shooting and CC than the grey hunters. Just because they do more damage per model does not mean that do more damage per point.

Purifiers also aren't 60% harder to kill than a Grey Hunter. Barring psychic attack, they're exactly the same at durability. So you're paying ONLY for offense.

IMO the purifier is the same as a PAGK but just a lot better in combat and shooting ( seeing as they can have 4 psycannons and 2 point halberds )
they are also fearless so they are really ment to be a shooting unit but with even more counter attack capability than there other brothers
and saying that they are 60% better is kinda hard to say ( they are almost twice the cost of a grey hunter being 15 points and a purifer 26 )
what you are paying for in the extra 6 points per marine is, way cheaper weapons , 4 psycannon capacity, clenseing flame (really really helps if your playing against orks nids or guard )

sourclams wrote:

bagtagger wrote:Has anyone ever stopped to think of how good GKs are against other Gks? It's actually funny how over powered they are against themselves.

Another reason not to take Paladins. More > Better (expensive).

I still don't understand paladin hate. I think the 15pts is deffinatly worth the extra wound and ws. And with all the options you get, they can become the ultiment deathstar. I'm running a draigo army myself. Only 7 kps, too.

The result seems to be that 66% think that GK are competitive.
I haven't expected this result - thought about 50% not higher.
Tournament play will show if its true or not. Other players will adapt to the GK armies - eventually adding some psychic protection to the army so that GK may have it harder to cast their powers.

loota boy wrote:

sourclams wrote:

bagtagger wrote:Has anyone ever stopped to think of how good GKs are against other Gks? It's actually funny how over powered they are against themselves.

Another reason not to take Paladins. More > Better (expensive).

I still don't understand paladin hate. I think the 15pts is deffinatly worth the extra wound and ws. And with all the options you get, they can become the ultiment deathstar. I'm running a draigo army myself. Only 7 kps, too.

I think its more hate of all paladin armies, then hating a unit of them.

Part of the problem is that alot of people see MSU as the best way to play the game but GW doesn't design each army to play well with that style, for example wolves are tailor made for MSU (which leads to the zomg wolves most broken army ever talk), whereas orcs aren't and the internetz judges orcs harshly because they don't fit into that style well. I think grey knights are interesting because they have some strong MSU builds, but can built around larger units because of the amount of psycannons available.

wuestenfux wrote:The result seems to be that 66% think that GK are competitive.
I haven't expected this result - thought about 50% not higher.
Tournament play will show if its true or not. Other players will adapt to the GK armies - eventually adding some psychic protection to the army so that GK may have it harder to cast their powers.

They look really tough for other marine armies, and at the end of the day that decides the public perception of how competitive an army is.

Im kinda bumbing this thread because i want to see what people think of them now as some time has past

loota boy wrote:

sourclams wrote:Another reason not to take Paladins. More > Better (expensive).

I still don't understand paladin hate. I think the 15pts is deffinatly worth the extra wound and ws. And with all the options you get, they can become the ultiment deathstar. I'm running a draigo army myself. Only 7 kps, too.

Is that really the thought process people are going through? By that I mean they were going to use Terminators, but decided Paladins were better? From what I've been reading, most folks point out how regular GKTs are not points efficient compared to their powered armored friends. PA guys in other armies don't have powerweapons or stormbolters, but GKSS all do. Per point GKSS put out more damage with shooting than terminators. And are more durable per point against AP1 + AP2, and just as durable against AP4-6.

The real choice to me seems to be all PAGK, mix of Pallies and PAGK, or for fun, all Paladins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops, didn't realize the necromancy that went on here....

Yea.... my bad

With Dreigo, Paladins, Psybolt ammunition, Psyflemen - Dreadnaughts with TL auto cannons with Psybolt ammunition, this army is not only competitive it is broken in my opinion....

Competitive...but not OP

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:With Dreigo, Paladins, Psybolt ammunition, Psyflemen - Dreadnaughts with TL auto cannons with Psybolt ammunition, this army is not only competitive it is broken in my opinion....

Driago wing is not op or broken in anyway really. You throw your points into 3 deathstars and pray that no-one brought triple vindi, dark lance spam or demo russes. Sure the paladins mulch pretty much everything that they come in contact with, but you're only mulching three units per turn, and a clever opponant will just feed you speed bumps that once killed, put you in range of tons of melta and plasma guns.