Well basically after reading through numerous threads on here and playing at my flgs ive been noticing that there are alot more of TFG's out there. Is this just me or have others noticed and is this turning this game into more of a challenge than a stress relief/ fun time?

Every store has TFG. If you don't know who TFG is at your store, it's probably you.

He who shouts loudest is heard the most.

As it is with the internet. It is far easier to complain than to say nice things, hence there are more threads/posts about the bad things than the good things. Bad things also tend to stick in our memories over the little good things that happen.

These nostalgic "in my day" or "I hate x players" threads are becoming a bit tedious and I'm so new to the game I can't answer for sure, but overall with what I've read my take on it is dicks existed before and they do now.

I think 40k is a bad game to get overly competitive in though, the game owes itself heavily to the fluff/universe and the biggest problems for the game in my mind besides the obvious like the decline of miniture wargaming/the price of the hobby are people simply playing to win and not appreciating any fluff/aestetic aspect, aka those who simply make an army to win tournaments. Even if you don't really like the fluff and are just into the game/modelling, there should be a certain entertainment and fun factor to your army.

i know who the TFG's at my store are its just another thread was posted about how 40k players were stuck in there own gaming groups and not friendly towards others and it just amazed me that someone would willingly say that they play in there little group and there group only. I actually run introduction games for new players on a regular basis i just dont want to see something that i have enjoyed for the last 11 years turn into a disgusting animal. I hope its not heading in that direction but it kinda seems that way.

theres plenty of cretins in any hobby though, I dont think its just limited to warhammer/wargaming.


It does tend to attract the psuedo-intellectual professors, I MUST WIN and pedants though :(. We have 1-2 in my local clubs who consistantly cheat, preach etc etc

But for every 1 of those kinds of people you usually get a few decent ones to enjoy it with!!

Also im only around for 7-8 months at a time and than i disappear to eithier iraq or afghanistan and miss out alot and when i come back it seems like people arent enjoying it as much as when i left.

Every local group of people has upswings and downswings. It may be that your local group really is degenerating, whether due to the influence of antisocial people, or a lack of good leadership by nice people. Or it could just be your perception, based on other factors.

very true it could be i dont really get to know the locals at my stores because of the item discussed above. That and when i am stateside i have to move on a pretty regular basis.

There have always been horrible hams, there will always be horrible hams. Nothing's really changed, there's just a vocal minority on forums talking about it. Consider every poster who starts a "horrible gamers" thread. That's a decent amount of people. Now consider everyone who doesn't start one. Assume they haven't had prolonged encounters with the aforementioned horrible hams.

First time I played I didn't,t know the rules, wa12, any way the other kid took out 20 or so space marines then gave me 20 or so orks, it was brief. That was back in rogue trader days

namegoeshere wrote:First time I played I didn't,t know the rules, wa12, any way the other kid took out 20 or so space marines then gave me 20 or so orks, it was brief. That was back in rogue trader days

I'll try to decypher that later.

I have noticed that it seems as if people have a much shorter attention span than they used to. Many people I play against will wander off while I'm moving, and I have to figure out a way to get them back to the table without yelling "Hey, fuckhead, do you wanna witness my to-hit rolls or should I just knock your unpainted gak on the floor?!?" And then there are the onlookers who are so loud and crude that the whole game room sounds like rehearsals for a production of Lord of the Flies.

sourclams wrote:Every store has TFG. If you don't know who TFG is at your store, it's probably you.

Totally want a shirt that says this.....

It's been more or less the same amount of TFG's for the last 15 years I've been playing. Think I'm lucky? You haven't met my TFG's

AnGeLsOfDeAtH said:

how 40k players were stuck in there own gaming groups and not friendly towards others and it just amazed me that someone would willingly say that they play in there little group and there group only.

..well yes and no. If you've been burnt a lot by tards, you may still want to play but you've had enough so only want to play with people you trust. It's sad that it can come to that but it really, really can. Like if you do sports or martial arts, there's people you much prefer to train with because you've been whacked one too many times or you're over bad technique screwing you up. Or playing RPG groups, that happens a lot. You get sick of giving people a chance and creating a new group for people you've not played with or inviting them into an existing group and they screw up the entire chronicle. Then some people have bad faults that they're aware of that seems to mesh with their own little clique, like maybe rules lawyering or being overly competitive or anal about measuring distance down to the micro millimetre. They know other people won't enjoy that and become frustrated.

Personally, I'll play 40k with anyone as long as they're patient with me (still learning, slowly) and don't cheat (I'm picky about RPG troupes, though). And then again, I know others that are happy to play with known cheaters just cos they want to play and winning isn't obviously as important to them as it is to the cheating scum

warpcrafter said:

I have noticed that it seems as if people have a much shorter attention span than they used to. Many people I play against will wander off while I'm moving

Y-Gen, dude. Seriously. Y-Gen (apologies to those Y-Gen reading this who actually have some semblance of an attention span and ability to organise their way out of a wet paper bag. You are rare. Very rare. You should be preserved as an endangered species.)

I guess the OP is just beginning to get out in the world. Hopefully I'm correct and he hasn't just gotten this impression from the internet. TFG is in the eye of the beholder.

You may find a player uncomfortable simply because he is loud, whereas the rest of the group has no problem with his enthusiasm.

You may not like to play against a gamer who is a 'rules lawyer', but certain communities encourage this behaviour.

Not every - but many - groups will contain one or more people who have genuine social problems that stem from any number of issues. You have permission to complain, but I assure you that the more communities (gaming or otherwise) you encounter the more people you will find that bother you in some way or another.

One of my regular opponents is a reputably cheesy, rules-lawyering, gloating sneak - and I love playing against him because I enjoy a challenge and can hold my own in a rules argument. I can also compromise and stop a discussion from escalating to a point where it is uncomfortable.

Coping skills are just as important as general social skills because not everyone has the capacity or inclination to behave in a manner that generally pleases everyone all the time.

Broadly speaking TFGuy and TFGirl is everywhere - in your workplace, maintaining your roads, teaching your children, playing at your golf club and urinating at your pool party. I don't host pool parties or frequent golf clubs so at least I won't encounter all of them - but on the other hand, being so subjective a complaint, you probably won't notice them all anyway. The more you notice TFG, the less tolerant you are.

If you're suddenly beginning to see them everywhere you may have contracted AtfgIDS - it's usually transmitted socially via such mediums as the Internet.

Gaming of all walks and varieties attracts the socially awkward like bees to honey.

When it's CCGs or Wargaming or RPG at least it's social unlike computer games and it's where a lot of those loud mouth or annoying guys that won't shut up about things people don't care about or Mr Know It All learn their social skills from.

Sometimes it just takes someone to say once "I don't think those guys want you interrupting their game so you can tell them old war stories about what your dude in your army did in a game three years ago" - but that's better coming from a friend.

Eventually you'll realise one day that TFG isn't so much of a tard anymore and you don't mind hanging out with them.

....most of the time. Some people are just beyond help :p

One of the southpark makers once said: "Any group of people has a Cartman. If you can't pinpoint who Cartman is, you're Cartman."
This if you think about it, there is always someone filling that role, if mutliple Cartmans meet, the worse one will usually "win". If you go to your FLGS chances are there is an extreme severe case of Cartman there, who will go Berserk if a single of his space mareens dies.

lol theres some really cool points/opinions in this thread

Jidmah wrote:One of the southpark makers once said: "Any group of people has a Cartman. If you can't pinpoint who Cartman is, you're Cartman."
This if you think about it, there is always someone filling that role, if mutliple Cartmans meet, the worse one will usually "win". If you go to your FLGS chances are there is an extreme severe case of Cartman there, who will go Berserk if a single of his space mareens dies.

If Cartman played 40K then I would understand HBMC...

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I guess the OP is just beginning to get out in the world. Hopefully I'm correct and he hasn't just gotten this impression from the internet. TFG is in the eye of the beholder.

You may find a player uncomfortable simply because he is loud, whereas the rest of the group has no problem with his enthusiasm.

You may not like to play against a gamer who is a 'rules lawyer', but certain communities encourage this behaviour.

Not every - but many - groups will contain one or more people who have genuine social problems that stem from any number of issues. You have permission to complain, but I assure you that the more communities (gaming or otherwise) you encounter the more people you will find that bother you in some way or another.

One of my regular opponents is a reputably cheesy, rules-lawyering, gloating sneak - and I love playing against him because I enjoy a challenge and can hold my own in a rules argument. I can also compromise and stop a discussion from escalating to a point where it is uncomfortable.

Coping skills are just as important as general social skills because not everyone has the capacity or inclination to behave in a manner that generally pleases everyone all the time.

Broadly speaking TFGuy and TFGirl is everywhere - in your workplace, maintaining your roads, teaching your children, playing at your golf club and urinating at your pool party. I don't host pool parties or frequent golf clubs so at least I won't encounter all of them - but on the other hand, being so subjective a complaint, you probably won't notice them all anyway. The more you notice TFG, the less tolerant you are.

If you're suddenly beginning to see them everywhere you may have contracted AtfgIDS - it's usually transmitted socially via such mediums as the Internet.

Where can I meet these TFGirls...? I haven't seen one in a GW yet?!

Harriticus wrote:
I think 40k is a bad game to get overly competitive in though, the game owes itself heavily to the fluff/universe and the biggest problems for the game in my mind besides the obvious like the decline of miniture wargaming/the price of the hobby are people simply playing to win and not appreciating any fluff/aestetic aspect, aka those who simply make an army to win tournaments. Even if you don't really like the fluff and are just into the game/modelling, there should be a certain entertainment and fun factor to your army.

Personally, I think that people who make vague, offensive stereotypes like "winners don't appreciate fluff" are the worst sort of TFGs.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Harriticus wrote:
I think 40k is a bad game to get overly competitive in though, the game owes itself heavily to the fluff/universe and the biggest problems for the game in my mind besides the obvious like the decline of miniture wargaming/the price of the hobby are people simply playing to win and not appreciating any fluff/aestetic aspect, aka those who simply make an army to win tournaments. Even if you don't really like the fluff and are just into the game/modelling, there should be a certain entertainment and fun factor to your army.

Personally, I think that people who make vague, offensive stereotypes like "winners don't appreciate fluff" are the worst sort of TFGs.

This. My Iron Warriors army is both fluffy and competitive, yet people still call me a powergamer just because I actually care about how well my army does in play instead of caring ENTIRELY about fluff.

Shock horror, some people actually enjoy winning.

(Insert Charlie Sheen reference here.)

AnGeLsOfDeAtH wrote:Well basically after reading through numerous threads on here and playing at my flgs ive been noticing that there are alot more of TFG's out there. Is this just me or have others noticed and is this turning this game into more of a challenge than a stress relief/ fun time?

The internet does seem to do that. There are certain individuals who seem to exist for the sole reason of causing drama and stirring up trouble and generally being asshats. The ignore button is your friend, unless you are a masochist like me and keep hitting the 'show post' button. I know some people like the challenge of the game and enjoy that type of environment, the trick is to find those who think like yourself and play with them instead of those that stress you out. Using fuel and 3 to 4 hours to play a game or two and be miserable the whole time really sucks, make it as enjoyable as you can. I don't imagine steamrolling a fluff player is very fun for either the competitive or the fluff player.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Harriticus wrote:
I think 40k is a bad game to get overly competitive in though, the game owes itself heavily to the fluff/universe and the biggest problems for the game in my mind besides the obvious like the decline of miniture wargaming/the price of the hobby are people simply playing to win and not appreciating any fluff/aestetic aspect, aka those who simply make an army to win tournaments. Even if you don't really like the fluff and are just into the game/modelling, there should be a certain entertainment and fun factor to your army.

Personally, I think that people who make vague, offensive stereotypes like "winners don't appreciate fluff" are the worst sort of TFGs.

I'm sorry but that clearly is not what he is saying. He made it very clear he was talking about people with no appreciation for the fluff. And NOWHERE in his post does he say people who win don't appreciate fluff. Surely there is a middle ground, one where we don't have to call each other TFGs

I agree with the thread title. This game would be way better if there was no one else playing it.

Ive seen a couple of girls at the local GW/clubs.

again some ok, some are the annoying type!

Dakkadan wrote:I'm sorry but that clearly is not what he is saying. He made it very clear he was talking about people with no appreciation for the fluff. And NOWHERE in his post does he say people who win don't appreciate fluff. Surely there is a middle ground, one where we don't have to call each other TFGs

I agree entirely with Dash.

He stated 'simply playing to win and not appreciating any fluff/aestatic aspect, aka those who simply make an army to win tournaments'.

Pretty straight forward and clear for folks that don't wear rose colored glasses.

There is middle ground, but unfortunately the middle ground gets distorted and gets much smaller by the folks wearing the rose colored glasses.

Overly competitive people will ruin anyone's day. They need to validate their life somehow, and some choose to do so with little plastic men pretending to fight.
I'm lucky in that I have a very large group of friends that play the game and several of us have tables at our houses, so we have no need for our FLGS, other than buying our stuff their to support them. Everytime I'm in there I thank Jeebus that I never have to play some of those guys. Hearing them argue and nit pick rules at the top of their lungs almost incites me to violence.

The game is supposed to be fun, so keep playing those you have fun playing with and tell the others to go feth off.
Try to find a group of friends you like, build your own tables and play the game with them.

But, if you want to play in large tournaments though, you're just going to have to deal with their existence.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Overly competitive people will ruin anyone's day.

I bolded the important bit. Playing competitively is fine. Playing to win is also fine. Playing to win in such a fashion that you come across as a massive jerk is bad, especially in a hobby that is still as niche as ours is. Obviously if you go to tournaments and what-not then you're all but setting yourself up to meet some of those types of players, so I guess those of us who aren't that big into tournaments perhaps get of lighter than others?

I personally think that GW should incorporate Warmachine's page 5 mantra on all their future BRB publications...

L. Wrex

Op, your name is obnoxious

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Overly competitive people will ruin anyone's day.

I bolded the important bit. Playing competitively is fine. Playing to win is also fine. Playing to win in such a fashion that you come across as a massive jerk is bad, especially in a hobby that is still as niche as ours is.

Exactly,
Healthy competition is expected and encouraged. It is the overly competitive that can kiss off. I'm playing this game to have fun, I want to win, but it is certainly not the most important moment in my life. If I lose...I lose, so long as it was a fun game than I don't care.

I find that players who do not play to win are at least as annoying as players who play only to win.

Playing to win does not require one to be TFG any more than being TFG requires one to play to win.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Overly competitive people will ruin anyone's day. They need to validate their life somehow, and some choose to do so with little plastic men pretending to fight.

Yeah? I'm a competitive as it gets. I've never found much challenge locally, so spend thousands of dollars to travel around the country to rub peoples' faces in the dirt (or to get my own rubbed in the dirt).

I'm guessing that you're not particularly skilled at 40k, and have had your army of little plastic men beaten into the ground one too many times and are now angry at all of us?

Hyper-competitive people play FOR THE LOVE OF THE CHALLENGE. Let me be the one to burst your bubble. I'm 30 years old, a formerly decorated army officer, have an Ivy League education from the most academically challenging school in the country (so says the Princeton Review anyway) that I paid for with sweat and blood (orphans don't have parents to give them scholarships). These days, I'm happily married, have no kids, have expensive toys, make enough money to do ANYTHING I want...I get to travel all over the country playing 40k because I want to. Exactly what do you think I need to validate? I play competitive 40k for the love of playing competitive 40k.

I don't keep trophies, I give away my prizes for winning tournaments as often as not, and if I'm playing a scrub, I get out an uncompetitive list.

Three questions I ask before every non-tournament game:
1. Do you know who I am?
2. Rate your tactical skill on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best 40k player in the world.
3. Is there an army you'd prefer to play against?

If they don't think they are Horus Reborn, or at least as gifted as Abbadon, I don't pull out the curb-stomping tools. You haven't been given the same courtsey by your local competitive players, but your bitter cynicism about why competitive people play 40k is misplaced, misguided, and offensive. The WORST part of 40k is when you're curb-stomping some hapless guy, you feel bad about it...and he doesn't care to hear about how to improve his own game. Then he gets sulky, angry, and is more likely than not to start some drama when you aren't there about how cheesy and WAAC you are. Despite the fact that you brought CLOSE COMBAT NECRONS to fight against his Razorspam netlist.

People play 40k for different reasons, but all of them end up being "fun." I can't wait to go home tonight; my wraiths are finally finished painting (flower wraiths for the Garden of Silence); they have brown roots, green bodies, yellow faces, black eyes, bloody claws, and the finishing touches tonight will be poking their heads through small fabric flowers to make them look like daisies.

I have this army to deal with people who have your attitude about people like me. So I can stomp on their bitterness and expose them as a self-delusional fraud. First I beat the crap out of them with my Necrons. Then we switch sides and I beat the crap out of the Necrons with their army.

Overly competitive people don't ruin anyone's day. Spiteful people ruin EVERYONE'S day, as does turning impotence into anger at someone else for exposing it, and all that jazz.

TFG is not the competitive player in your shop.
TFG is the guy who cheats because he's not good enough to compete.
TFG is the guy who causes animosity because he's not good enough to compete with the competitive player.

i did not say people who play to win are TFG, i said overly competitive people definitely are.

Being overly competitive is more of a personality flaw, the kind of guy who has to 'one up' any story you tell, or he feels he has to be better than everyone at the most mundane of things. Like he'll say he can vaccum the carpet faster and better than you, or he can tap a fork on a table faster than you...
That kind of crap.

I do have to agree with Dash, there are players out there who are just simply good and are a blast to play with.

Whilst on the other end of the spectrum there will be people who are WAAC and try and be a pain with the rules to give them an edge (i.e. A unit is behind LOS blocking terrain, I can see his foot! I can shoot him!) or people who will try and bend the rules to their favour. Those are the guys to watch out for.

@Dashofpepper
You certainly jumped to alot of conclusions. Have fun pushing people face in the dirt.

Op, your name is obnoxious

Way to contribute to the conversation.



You just have to ignore those people, they are everywhere. Make a few friends, game with them, meet new people, weed out the bad guys. Simple as that.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:@Dashofpepper
You certainly jumped to alot of conclusions. Have fun pushing people face in the dirt.

That first sentence of yours in your OP was pretty conclusive.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:@Dashofpepper
You certainly jumped to alot of conclusions. Have fun pushing people face in the dirt.

He does have a little bit of a point. Asking someone "do you know who I am?" before playing them would be a little demoralizing and demeaning to people who are not pro-players. Who cares who you are? If I'm there for fun, let's just have fun! Why do I have to read your resume before I can play you?

Dashofpepper wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Overly competitive people will ruin anyone's day. They need to validate their life somehow, and some choose to do so with little plastic men pretending to fight.

Yeah? I'm a competitive as it gets. I've never found much challenge locally, so spend thousands of dollars to travel around the country to rub peoples' faces in the dirt (or to get my own rubbed in the dirt).
<snip>

If you didn't need to validate yourself why would you make a long drawn out post bragging about your personal skills in 40k and achievements in life while berating other player's skills?

Agreed. My first thought when asked a question like that would probably be "some pompous windbag, I imagine". What I would actually say would probably be something along the lines of "No and I don't particularly care to." But I guess not everyone can have tiger DNA.

As for level of academic challenge, that would depend largely on the degree.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:@Dashofpepper
You certainly jumped to alot of conclusions. Have fun pushing people face in the dirt.

He does have a little bit of a point. Asking someone "do you know who I am?" before playing them would be a little demoralizing and demeaning to people who are not pro-players. Who cares who you are? If I'm there for fun, let's just have fun! Why do I have to read your resume before I can play you?

I don't tell people who I am if they don't know who I am. But its something I need to know - is my potential opponent just looking for a game, or are they looking to challenge Dashofpepper? If they know who I am, and they're wanting to challenge me, then getting out my Necrons isn't the game they're looking for.

I have a Dashofpepper shirt. That question comes in many forms. As often as not, "Like the shirt?" tells me if they know me or not. Or "Have you seen my name anywhere?"

Its a far better approach than just bringing my meanest game to every game regardless of whether such is needed against that opponent. There's no intimidation, no "Well, let me tell you all about who I am!" - just a random off-question to find out if this is going to be a serious game or not.

Gun fighters and a friendly game of cards...

Many people have guns, most are not "gun fighters".

Many People play cards, most are not "The Gambler".

When one is 'serious business', you have to be the way Dashofpepper is talking about.

I fault him nothing, and if we ever played I would be cordial and learn as much as I could from the experience.

Reminds me of a line from a book, "I am an undrawn Grandmaster of the game and you can not loose well against me, no matter the form. But as with all my children, I will play this game or another with you everyday that you are here, and in time you will learn to loose well, and you may even learn to loose brilliantly." And then the response, "And if in time I learn to win... however badly?" The Grandmaster laughs with admiration, then I shall retire and make you Grandmaster in my place! (slightly paraphrased)

Wow. Dashofpepper, would like some salt to season that MASSIVE chip on your shoulder?

I know guys who are in the forces, I know guys that are quite rich, I know guys who are highly ranked and highly successful in just about everything they turn their hand to from martial arts to business. None of them feel the need to wander around ramming down people's throats how awesome they are.

I'm kinda glad you're in another country.

I play with highly competitive people at times. They're nice. They're patient with me whilst I'm still learning the game. They may beat the pants off me, but they're not TFG. Because they'll give me tips, let me know nicely when I screw something up. Let me take brutally stupid moves back after explaining to me why. Laugh and have a good time over the gaming table.

That's the difference between a competitive player and the overly competitive TFG.

They're not OVERLY competitive. OVERLY is "over" "more than" "an over-abundance of" not 'high but normal levels of competitiveness'.

So dashofpepper, before jumping to conclusions to make yourself feel good by slandering other people, feel free to tell me I'm a noob, feel free to have a go at me for having a small, half painted army, feel free to laugh at me cos I lose seventy-five percent of my games.

Cos I don't care. I'm into 40k to have fun.

ITT: Dash stroking his record size ego and waving it around

sourclams wrote:Every store has TFG. If you don't know who TFG is at your store, it's probably you.

Phew! Good thing this high pitched WOTR playing kid who keeps trying to command this Dark Eldar guy while yelling "DOWN WITH THE BLOOD GOD!" just showed up. If he didn't I'd have to point all five fingers at myself

You may not like what Dash had to say...but he has a huge point.

VERY good 40k players could care less about "Overly" competetive players.

VERY good 40k players that love fluff could care less as well.

I've been playing this game in stores, with friends and national tournaments now since 87, and the only players I've seen that complain about someone being "overly" competetive are ones that just got tore a new one on the tabletop.

Sounds like sour grapes to me too. After all...how satisfying is it to CURB STOMP an OVERLY competetive player? I doubt one would complain much about that....truthfully anyway.

Umm.. all I can ascertain from this thread, and to say it as inoffensively as possible so I don't get a fearsome rebuttal, is that obviously different players take this game more or less seriously. I also think that a lot of the sour grapes from losing come from people who are competitive themselves, look at any competitive sport.

And I say this because I'm fairly competitive, and I hate losing. However, I like to think I am well mannered enough to not be rude or come out with some kind of sour-grapes, objectionable comment to whoever has beaten me. Maintaining this attitude is helped, at least in part, by the fact that I know this is just a game, no one actually lives or dies, or goes onto hardship, as a result of what has just happened on the tabletop. I try and keep things in perspective, no matter how badly I have been drubbed. I have other ways of confirming my self-worth, my thymos or whatever. For the most part, I try and stay away from the tables where this is not the case.

There are a lot more important things in our lives, and in a sense it is a testament to the luxuriant lifestyles of the modern world that we can get so worked up about something which is ultimately completely inconsequential, other than as a pleasant way to pass the time.

Peace and good will to all men

No!!!!!!

I should probably be clearer. I don't mind people being competitive. After all, you have your army and you're trying to beat their army.

I don't mind that people take 40k seriously. Taking a hobby seriously can take it to a whole new level.

I don't personally play in tournaments but I still think tournaments are a very good thing. (I've done my dash on competitive scene with hobbies. Not going there again).

I certainly have nothing against flying all over your respective country to play and compete. I regularly fly interstate for two of my other hobbies, WoD larp conventions and martial arts seminars/championships and 'back in the day' used to for CCG national comps, too.

It's the ATTITUDE that changes a person from being a competitive player to TFG, which is where I took issue with Dashofpepper. His seemingly appalling "i'm so great cos and you suck" attitude. If that's not what he meant, then perhaps he should remember that text doesn't convey nuance because it's certainly how it came across.

So what I've taken from this thread is there's normal players, TFGs, and Dashofpepper.

Deadshane1 wrote:You may not like what Dash had to say...but he has a huge point.

VERY good 40k players could care less about "Overly" competetive players.

VERY good 40k players that love fluff could care less as well.

I've been playing this game in stores, with friends and national tournaments now since 87, and the only players I've seen that complain about someone being "overly" competetive are ones that just got tore a new one on the tabletop.

Sounds like sour grapes to me too. After all...how satisfying is it to CURB STOMP an OVERLY competetive player? I doubt one would complain much about that....truthfully anyway.

I have a friend who is a WAAC player and he is no fun to play against. I don't care how competetive you are, but have a bad attitude about like Dash is obnoxious.

Bragging about how good you are at 40k is on par with bragging about good you are at any trivial game be it Magic or WoW. Most people will just ignore it, but when it turns into "Oh, not only am I awesome, but you're a bad player" it gets a little absurd and that is exactly what Dash is doing in this thread.

I agree with Loki.

But what makes a TFG? IMO its that guy thats a jerk to everyone, and plays without fully knowing the rules and plays to win at all costs, including cheats. Is that what he is to everyone else?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I agree with Loki.

But what makes a TFG? IMO its that guy thats a jerk to everyone, and plays without fully knowing the rules and plays to win at all costs, including cheats. Is that what he is to everyone else?

That's what he is to me.

Good cool, Amaya.

So back to the actual topic of the thread, I've not been in 40k scene that long, but other groups/hobbies/scenes I've been in, I've found the longer you're in it, the more immersed you become into it, the more TFGs you become aware of. Sometimes it's just getting to know them more, you know how someone can seem like your total bff when you meet them and they're the best thing since sliced bread but after six months you begin to hate the way they do that thing or their attitude on this topic, etc.

I really only know the guys in 40k who are already friends of mine and the staffers of the stores I regularly visit though, not the local scene here at large and don't have that kind of time frame OP was referring to. But the other customers who are happy to chat to other enthusiasts at the LGS are always friendly enough. And yes, I know who the TFGs in my group are :p (phew - that means it's not me! Yay!)

CadianCommander wrote:

It's the ATTITUDE that changes a person from being a competitive player to TFG, which is where I took issue with Dashofpepper. His seemingly appalling "i'm so great cos and you suck" attitude. If that's not what he meant, then perhaps he should remember that text doesn't convey nuance because it's certainly how it came across.

Or, perhaps you should read what I write and take it at face value instead of inferencing and interpreting it for your own means and then braying poor conclusions all over the thread? Why aren't you jumping down the throat of the guy who SAID that ridiculous and offensive generalization which made me post in the first place? I said three things.

1. The statement "Overly competitive people...need to validate their life somehow and choose to do so with little plastic men pretending to fight" is overly generalized, idiotic, and a testament to a bitter player.

2. Overly competitive people play for the love of the challenge. I'm overly competitive. Truthfully, if I need to shove it down your throat - then here: I probably know more 40k gamers than you. I probably know more hyper-competitive gamers than you. I probably play against more "overly competitive gamers" than you. So YES...I am more qualified than the miscellaneous rabble in here to espouse my OWN reasons for gaming, and the reasons my FRIENDS game. We *are* this stereotype.

3. There's only one step above "overly competitive" and "hyper-competitive" which is WAAC cheater. If that was the intended meaning, he would have said so. He did not.


If all you get out of that is "Dash has a "I'm awesome and you suck" attitude", then you have gak for reading skills. Which is quite believable based on your writing literacy. I'm not calling you names - I'm noting a strong correlation between your reading and writing skills. Yes...this is not a cozy tone. Yes, this is confrontational. YOU stepped up, and threw down the insults.

You said that you appreciate people who give you tips and let you know nicely when you screw something up. I do the same thing in games all the time. Here's one for the forums: You just screwed up and trolled me because you can't assemble the words I write into a coherent thought and respond dispassionately, and you need to remember that just because you *have* a keyboard doesn't mean you need to punch your fingers across the keys. Massive chip on the shoulder? Pot, meet kettle.

Battle Brother Lucifer: Amazingly useless post you made there. See the above advice. Please stop feeling the urge to type something when you have nothing useful to say.

Both of you clowns: Delete your rubbish so that I can do the same. I have an annoying habit of defending myself against people who attack me.

I've never played dash. But from what he's said he doesn't seem to be a TFG. He may be egotistical, or he may just be proud of what hes accomplished. He seems from that one post on this thread, to just be a competitive guy and chose WH to express that. I've played a few TFG when i used to play magic. This guy went all over the nation, playing in tournements. But then even when he was playing people brand new to the game, he'd always pull out his tournament decks and then he would curbstomp the new guy, myself included. Never played him again. Then there are people who play all over the nation in tournements, and would pull out a starter deck, and then teach you how to play better. Thats the difference IMO between a TFG competitive player, and a competitive player. One only plays to crub stomp people. the other plays to win because he's good at the game, but also will teach people how to play better.

Amaya wrote:

I have a friend who is a WAAC player and he is no fun to play against. I don't care how competetive you are, but have a bad attitude about like Dash is obnoxious.

Bragging about how good you are at 40k is on par with bragging about good you are at any trivial game be it Magic or WoW. Most people will just ignore it, but when it turns into "Oh, not only am I awesome, but you're a bad player" it gets a little absurd and that is exactly what Dash is doing in this thread.

Amazing. You didn't even READ what I wrote did you.

75% of my posting on Dakka is an effort to help people, educate them, make them more competitive, finesse their armies, tune their skills...

1% of my posting is fun and giggles.

The other 24% is spent fending off people whose entire purpose on Dakka is to contribute noise, static, offense, and make things that are useful to read hard to find.

Oblivious, I getcha on so many levels. You wouldn't believe the times people would try to hose me trading because "I'm a girl so obviously I only play Magic cos my bf does" or think they were going to wipe the floor with me in tournaments for the same reason (to their detriment, I'd use their attitude against them), or people that would come away laughing after creaming a noob in a tournament. Disgusting behaviour. Esp as being in Aus, sometimes they were people down in the city who lived rural so had limited cards and limited experience. Then you'd get the guys like us who would whisper where the judges couldn't hear helpful corrections to mistakes they'd make like "untap your dudes" even though it'd be to your detriment, or would throw in extras when trading to give them a leg up.

Dash - get over yourself. Whatevs, no longer care. If you're not the person you're coming across as, great. If you help people out, then that's awesome.

Again with the assumptions though. Almost everyone around me has been into 40k since the original Rogue Trader days so don't give me that tosh.

You are still missing the point of Competitive and OVERLY competitive. OVERLY is too much. A flaw, a problem, over the top. I still don't know why everyone needed the biography of your life just to prove a point of a discussion about TFG and it's relation to over-competitiveness. That's where you fell down.

What is wrong with everyone! If people like Dash get your backs up then you have no hope.....Yes Dash, you may be a good player, and i would love to give you a game sometime (although me living across the pond, this seems impossible) and yes, i like a challenge as much as the next person. In a game of 40k, if its serious as most Tourny's are, you are playing against the person as well as the army.
If your oppo comes out full of himself and oozing cofidence, then you are gonna think 'Hang on, can I really beat this guy?'. What Dash says is in essence true, however i dont really need to know about your personal life or how blissfull your married life is, or even how much money you make....im here to play a game of 40k. So just get on with it!


Peace.

In my time, I have seen all kinds of players. I've played great ones, and ones that made me want to put my head through a wall. I've actually got a friend who plays 40K who is kind of like Dash. A great amount of my experience in the game has come from playing him. It took me a few years, but I finally beat him in a straight-up competitive game. I just wanted to see if I could do it....finally. I'm not going to jump into the back and forth, but there are some points he makes that are valid, if only from a standpoint of actually improving your game via experience.

Anyways, more to the point of the thread, I see the "WAAC" style of play as the real threat to the hobby. That goes well beyond the whole competitive vs over-competitive vs fluffy play argument. An old store I frequented had one player who literally cheated his way right out of the store. Players recognize it and refuse to play that type of player. Fast forward to today and a new shop and new games other than 40K. We had a FoW player who we literally had to sit down and explain why we weren't playing with him. The final straw was when he started playing German marching tunes after his PanzerGernadier Army won a game. Not cool. It was doubly bad when we realized he was playing with excessive point lists. I literally saw the guy for the first time in three or four months last week. Dunno if the lesson was learned or not, but we'll see. I told him I would play him. Maybe giving him a good game and not treating him like a pariah might help to bring him back to the fold.

I think, at the end of the day, if you really don't like the attitude of a particular player, then you shouldn't play that person. Other than showing them up (which sometimes can be satisfying on its own), why cause the frustration to yourself? The other side of this though, you don't get better playing soft targets. I guess it is all about balance and what you are willing to put up with.

I think I see the real problem with the discussion between Dash and CadianComander. If what Cadian said is true then as a female player of 40k, (there really is such a thing?) then even though you both are typing in english you really aren't speaking the same language. Interpretation wise at any rate. Otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing as classes on communicating in a relationship. What I heard from what you said was... ect ect. Strange but true the genders do not communicate or interpret things the same way.

So back to the tabletops to have fun!

I think there are definitely a lot more PTW types, but that's coincided with the new SW and BA codices.

It's impossible for them to lose

Zakiriel wrote:I think I see the real problem with the discussion between Dash and CadianComander.

Except that it wasn't just CadianComander.

Anyone who can take my answer to "You're a little man out to prove something" and turn it into "Dash is an an obnoxious braggart" has communication issues with me. It is further reinforced when the parties responsible for such gross misinterpretation have the spelling capability of eight year olds. It is inflamed when said eight-year old grasp of concepts is offensively sprayed across Dakka.

And this is why I could never be a moderator here. Willfully stupid people offend me, I believe they are second rate citizens without the ability to contribute to the world or society, and they should not be allowed to participate in intellectual conversation.

My ban button would be hard at work. All day long. Dakka would become readable again, have more content rise to the top, but its readership would go waaaaay down. Well, at least its logged-in readership. Then again, I firmly believe that most of the people contributing to the noise ratio on Dakka have no interest in its content anyway.

Topically - that's what I consider a TFG on the internet.

That kind of attitude is probably why people argue with you/object to your opinions.

A few of your posts are amusing, educational and cool

but this last one is about as far from it as you can get. It is as bad on an "intellectual level" as the ones you accuse of all sorts :/

Dashofpepper wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Overly competitive people will ruin anyone's day. They need to validate their life somehow, and some choose to do so with little plastic men pretending to fight.

Yeah? I'm a competitive as it gets. I've never found much challenge locally, so spend thousands of dollars to travel around the country to rub peoples' faces in the dirt (or to get my own rubbed in the dirt).

I'm guessing that you're not particularly skilled at 40k, and have had your army of little plastic men beaten into the ground one too many times and are now angry at all of us?

Hyper-competitive people play FOR THE LOVE OF THE CHALLENGE. Let me be the one to burst your bubble. I'm 30 years old, a formerly decorated army officer, have an Ivy League education from the most academically challenging school in the country (so says the Princeton Review anyway) that I paid for with sweat and blood (orphans don't have parents to give them scholarships). These days, I'm happily married, have no kids, have expensive toys, make enough money to do ANYTHING I want...I get to travel all over the country playing 40k because I want to. Exactly what do you think I need to validate? I play competitive 40k for the love of playing competitive 40k.

I don't keep trophies, I give away my prizes for winning tournaments as often as not, and if I'm playing a scrub, I get out an uncompetitive list.

Three questions I ask before every non-tournament game:
1. Do you know who I am?
2. Rate your tactical skill on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best 40k player in the world.
3. Is there an army you'd prefer to play against?

If they don't think they are Horus Reborn, or at least as gifted as Abbadon, I don't pull out the curb-stomping tools. You haven't been given the same courtsey by your local competitive players, but your bitter cynicism about why competitive people play 40k is misplaced, misguided, and offensive. The WORST part of 40k is when you're curb-stomping some hapless guy, you feel bad about it...and he doesn't care to hear about how to improve his own game. Then he gets sulky, angry, and is more likely than not to start some drama when you aren't there about how cheesy and WAAC you are. Despite the fact that you brought CLOSE COMBAT NECRONS to fight against his Razorspam netlist.

People play 40k for different reasons, but all of them end up being "fun." I can't wait to go home tonight; my wraiths are finally finished painting (flower wraiths for the Garden of Silence); they have brown roots, green bodies, yellow faces, black eyes, bloody claws, and the finishing touches tonight will be poking their heads through small fabric flowers to make them look like daisies.

I have this army to deal with people who have your attitude about people like me. So I can stomp on their bitterness and expose them as a self-delusional fraud. First I beat the crap out of them with my Necrons. Then we switch sides and I beat the crap out of the Necrons with their army.

Overly competitive people don't ruin anyone's day. Spiteful people ruin EVERYONE'S day, as does turning impotence into anger at someone else for exposing it, and all that jazz.

TFG is not the competitive player in your shop.
TFG is the guy who cheats because he's not good enough to compete.
TFG is the guy who causes animosity because he's not good enough to compete with the competitive player.

That kind of overreaction reveals that there is at least some impetus for you to validate thineself...

To be fair, Henners91, he could just be burned from what he feels is a constant assault on people who share his play style from those who are prone to sulking at a loss. I'm not implying any of the posters here are sulkers, for the record.

@Dashofpepper - My original statement was worded incorrectly and taken the wrong way. I tried to Clarify with this:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:
i did not say people who play to win are TFG, i said overly competitive people definitely are.

Being overly competitive is more of a personality flaw, the kind of guy who has to 'one up' any story you tell, or he feels he has to be better than everyone at the most mundane of things. Like he'll say he can vaccum the carpet faster and better than you, or he can tap a fork on a table faster than you...
That kind of crap.

From everything you've said, you sound like you are a highly competitive player. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that (as far as i'm concerned).
As I stated previously it is OVERLY competitive people that annoy the crap out of me. This being a personality flaw, not just a desire for challenge.
These are the people who are not fun to play with because every dice role that doesn't go their way drives them to slap the table in rage, or any good rolls or moves on your part gets you a glare or a tirade of curses.

I hope you see my original intention, as i actually have nothing wrong with the way you say you play. Hell, hit me up next time your in Atlanta and we can have a go, my Salamander's are always itching to scrap with there old nemesis the DE.

And as to those who think I posted this because I lose and cry all the time i direct you to yet another earlier post of mine:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:
Exactly,
Healthy competition is expected and encouraged. It is the overly competitive that can kiss off. I'm playing this game to have fun, I want to win, but it is certainly not the most important moment in my life. If I lose...I lose, so long as it was a fun game than I don't care.

But this being the internet, you can keep on believing what you want.

Guys, this is just a game of toy soldiers.

what Kilkrazy said!!

To get so offensive/OTT over what is in essence a game of toy soldiers is laughable.

redeyed wrote:That kind of attitude is probably why people argue with you/object to your opinions.

I've said this before, and will again: I am a blunt person, and prefer to cut to the chase. I have a low tolerancy for stupidity, but Dakka's rules have forced me to heavily moderate what I say. I don't *care* when people don't like my attitude. I've grown inured to the massive amount of trolling here when I write a tactica, or a batrep, or talk about a tournament or something. If someone can't value thoughtful feedback on an issue because they are either not smart enough or too petty to not feel offended by a blunt presentation, they don't have an opinion worth listening to in the first place. That's not arrogance, that's impatience with self-imposed mediocrity.

The world is full of pettiness, spitefulness, and mediocrity. Everywhere. I have no interest in appeasing the masses, my only interest is in helping those trying to distance themselves from the pile of worthless gak that costitute the masses.

I *HAVE A PROBLEM* when the sludge-pile belches forth a bilous pustulence labeling those people trying to rise above the midden-heap as "bad." NO ONE has a right to label achievers as bad, or claim they are trying to justify their existence. That attitude is the foundation of humanity's stagnation. That is anti-progress.

Hyper-competitive gamers are not the problem. People who think that achievers need to be put in their place because they're no better than anyone else are. Why would I give two feths and a rat tail that a people who I think are worthless don't like what I say?

40k doesn't create "go-getters" or "achievers." Its just another outlet in which people display their natural tendencies.
--------------------------------------------------
On a brighter note: For all you hyper-competitive people out there..don't let the sludge keep you down. Study that rulebook. Tweak your army. Practice GT scenarios. Find the biggest, baddest player in your area and play them until you learn to beat them. And if you are the baddest player, expand your playing network beyond your local scene. Ignore the schmucks who can't beat you and start blaming your own ambition for their inadequacies.

People in this thread: None of that is directed at any of you in particular, but rather at a distasteful mindset. If you're feeling targeted via description of your own thoughts, pause. Consider for a moment what you can do to make the world a little bit of a better place. Do it. Don't rabble on, find something meaningful and lasting that will improve something. Don't accept your station in life, strive to improve yourself.

I understand where you're coming from DoP. Sometimes I feel like mediocrity is culturally celebrated, and not just in wargaming. Being ambitious enough to want to be the best is just considered bad.

I dislike the every center having a tfg and if you can't point them out its probably you >_<

where i play there are only 2 war games tables, its mostly magic / other car/board games and a computer lan center/console gaming place (quite a cool place to hang out ) in the mall.

there are only a few of us warhammer players and everyone seems very cool and relaxed. we play oddball lists for fun or serious lists to practice tactics (well they do, I mostly play fluff cause its more fun) might be just that there are only max 10 of us but nobody I’ve met there is waac or tfg at all

I mostly play Warmahordes so my attitude might be different, but here are my thoughts.

I find there's a simple difference between playing to win and winning at all costs. The first implies that the person is attempting to win through expertise at the game: they have the talent and/or put in the effort to become a better player, and enjoy the feeling of reaping the rewards of such. The second is more interested in the feeling of dominance over another player through some arbitrary "victory," no matter how it's achieved.

Sometimes, I find that those who can't win by the first means try to redefine the "game" to win by the second. Hence the guy in my local game store who claims he doesn't go to tournaments because he keeps losing on technicalities and thinks it's ambullgak that such a thing could happen to him over and over, without considering what it is that causes that to happen to him over and over. As opposed to the guy who lost on some of the same technicalities and immediately sat down to read the tournament rules packet to figure out where he got caught and how he can avoid it in the future. In the first case, the player decided to redefine the game by his own criteria. In the second case, the player decided to study the game to adapt to the new meta.

And so on and so forth.

It's a real pain in the neck when some donkeycave decides to redefine the game by deciding that he should get an illegal army build and you can't, but it's just as bad to redefine the game against a solid, honest player by deciding that playing to the best of your abilities using the best you've got is against your personal arbitrary rules set.

Just something to think about.

Man, I wish there was a more selective ' ignore' function on here. I love dash's tactica threads, but his mere presence in non-tactics threads tends to drive them ot. Both because of his self-aggrandizing statements and other people's inability to ignore them. I find it highly unlikely dash did not know that his essay on his achievements would turn this thread into a referendum on himself; however, I don't see why anyone would bother challenging him on it, further derailing the thread. Dash has been around long enough for folks to know his persona, and know he will not suddenly decide "hey, I do come across as a bit full of myself, and I can see why other people might dislike it, without it being because they are (insert condescending description)". Dash gave his opinion; people could have ignored it. However, he certainly was aware that other people would have a hard time doing so.

Tl;dr version; dash, and those who responded to him are guilty of thread-pooping.

(typing on phone, sorry about no paragraph breaks)

bthom:

self-aggrandizing statements.

Here's a short education on how debate works.

Person #1 presents viewpoint.
Person #2 refutes viewpoint, preferably with evidence.
Person #1 attempts to refute refutation.
Person #2 shores up any holes in refutation and further refutes viewpoint.

In this case, I happened to use myself as the evidence because it was relevant to the viewpoint presented. And we got this:

Person #1 presents viewpoint
Person #2 refutes viewpoint, preferably with evidence.
Bunch of people attacked person #2 for daring to present evidence refuting Person #1
A few other people agreed with Person #2.
Person #2 now defends himself against the rabbling mob attacking him instead of his arguments.

Intelligent contribution would be refuting the refutation, or agreeing in the refutation of the viewpoint.

You can't fix stupid.

So!

I've see we've morphed from a generic TFG thread

to a generic competitive players are means :( thread

to a generic mud slinging / mud wrestling match with Dash.

Awesome. Now normally mud wrestling is really cool, but in this case there aren't any hot women, and its just sweaty men!

So uh yea.

Anyway to get back on topic I think themocaw raises a valid point. Its like my Aunt says (in a sense), "being taken seriously isn't something that comes with age- its a lifestyle choice"

I think all of us, on some level draw enjoyment from playing Warhammer.

I think people can agree that these stereotypes of players do exist, and I think the line between them is often blurred and confused.
Some players (TFG) only enjoy winning, and are thoroughly pissed off if they are ever outclassed. Taking things a step further by cheating if they feel like their dominance could possibly be threatened. These are your playground bullies

Some players (How I view Dash of Pepper, etc) are like Orks. They want a good fight. They want an opponent who they can go all out against and still be met blow for blow. Sure they prefer winning, everybody prefers winning then not. But these players would rather play a challenging and epic game and ultimately lose in the struggle than curbstomp a new player.

And there are people who just casually play- a semi competitive list with solid synergy and units they enjoy using. Certainly not opposed to drinking a few beers over a game. These players still want to win, but they still try to use units and lists they like, and have built back story for, even if they aren't the most competitive lists.

People need to chill out in this thread. Dash tends to "come off strong" to put it lightly, but he often knows what hes talking about. And there are usually nuggets of insight buried under his abrasive language. I think certain players in category 3, confuse players in category 2 with players in category 1, then get really frustrated, and blinded by rage, and then can't read past the abrasive language in Dash's posts.

Or that how I at least see this sorry excuse for a "debate".

Hes a Dark Eldar general after all-
"An Eldar's arrogance is matched only by their fire power"
or something like that!

lets just say I would advise against a pissing match against DoP. It seldom ends well.

akaean wrote:lets just say I would advise against a pissing match against DoP.

Captain Morgan is on his side in those. . .

akaean wrote:So!...snipped for space...It seldom ends well.

This!

Reasonable, readable, agreeable

Kilkrazy wrote:Guys, this is just a game of toy soldiers.

TOY SOLDIERS R SERIOUS BUSINESS!!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey Dash, I'd like a game against you on vassal sometime. After all this, if I'm not wiped from the board by top of turn 3, I will be very disappointed in you.

Dash you remind me of a buddy of mine, your not a lawyer are you?

But back on topic. So what we have learned here is this: A TFG will curbstomp an rookie just to win. A TFG plays all the angles to win, including cheats: I.E. excessive point, jank made up rules ect. A competitive player plays to win, but do it fairly. A cool competitive player will play to win, the after a win give the guy he beat tips and help him improve his game.

I'm new to warhammer but anyone i play i try to beat, no exceptions, its a game, their has to be a winner and a loser. But i try to ensure both players have fun. And when i run into an army that gives me trouble i re play it until i can beat it. Unfortunately with eldar i am 0-3-2. Does this make me a TFG, i'd like to think not. AS for the fluffyness of a player, i'm extremely fluffy, i have read all the Guants Ghosts, Ciaphis Cain, Ultramarines, 15 Hours, Eisenhorn, Reavanor, and Dawn of war. I named my Company commander, the commissar, the PCS and my chimeras. Because i got bored one day and decided to do so. Wrote an entire backstory about my regiment [12th Pheltorian Mechanized Regiment] in my world civ class. The thing is i dont show to someone unless they ask, or bring up they do the same. For the fluff players can be TFG too.

TL;DR You can be a competitive player, and a fluffy player at the same time. And a fluffy player can be a TFG.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Here's a short education on how debate works.
...
Bunch of people attacked person #2 for daring to present evidence refuting Person #1
A few other people agreed with Person #2.
Person #2 now defends himself against the rabbling mob attacking him instead of his arguments.

You don't have to defend yourself against ad hominem attacks; you've already won the debate once they come up.

Less fuss to acknowledge your opponents' concession and move on.

To the point of the topic, are other players ruining the game? No. Other players that don't agree with you (the generic, personal 'you' that is reading this) make the game non-enjoyable for the individual. Games Workshop controls "the Game".. and will do what they want, regardless of Dakka or whatever other forum. Their rules and changes will come based on their mythical reasons for whatever.. But when it comes down to the time to roll the dice, it's you and the person across the table. Just roll dice with someone you can enjoy rolling dice with.

Highly competitive players use every rule, munchkin tactic, and twist to their benefit to win the game (within the rules.) WAAC types (to my mind) are the Highly competitive types mixed in with a lot of rules lawyer and "creative interpretation" personalities. "It's just a game" types really don't care if you're 1/8th of an inch off or if there might be 48% obscuration of a vehicle instead of the 50%... it's all about the socialization. And there are all kinds of people in between. The labels don't matter.. that there are different personalities is the important part. Labels simply make it easier to put people in a de-humanized box and react to them as a "thing" and not a person, which is something I think is a bad thing. Remember, the bad guy rarely thinks of himself as a villain.

I play 40K with friends, and folks that wander down to the store. There are a couple of people I do not enjoy playing against because of the way they play.. it does not agree with me and we do not enjoy the encounter. So. I don't play them. Nothing personal and it's not that they're bad people. We are incompatible. I don't like playing games with them. I would imagine that they don't enjoy playing against me either. I also figure there are others that don't like playing against me. It doesn't make ME a bad person. Just incompatible.

To view "your own" style as "better," "superior," or some other superlative to other players places a judgement upon the individual.. and so those others take umbrage. There are players of all types that tend to come across that way. To my mind, it is that very self-supporting arrogance of superiority that garners the ridicule and resentment from people who play differently. It doesn't matter if your style is this, that or the other.. arrgant disdain for others simply will result in a negative response from those folks.

Take a step back.. breathe.. and simply don't waste the time trying to convince another that this is right or wrong. If it's a rules question.. debate it, and either come to an agreeable consensus or step away and agree to disagree. It simply doesn't have to be personal. Everyone knows the type that is being obtuse, and blatantly argumentative simply for the case of doing so. It doesn't matter what their opinion is. If you disagree.. step away.. thank them for their opinion.. and go play with someone else.

It. Just. Isn't. Worth. The. Mental. Calories. Or. Aggravation. Really.

Dakka has some good resources in among the chaff. The chaff.. well.. is just that. Chaff. What does one do with chaff? Cast it aside. Don't let it affect your world, or life, or game.

Just my opinion, of course.

sounds like a great summary there Hearne!

hear hear!

I *HAVE A PROBLEM* when the sludge-pile belches forth a bilous pustulence labeling those people trying to rise above the midden-heap as "bad." NO ONE has a right to label achievers as bad, or claim they are trying to justify their existence. That attitude is the foundation of humanity's stagnation. That is anti-progress.

Emperor's beard! Nurgle is in the Internets!!!

akaean wrote:<Three types of gamers.>

I would add a fourth type: that's the type that actively tries to play badly and uses that to feel superior to those who play well for some arbitrary reason. They do exist: I know for one that if I'm not careful, I can become one of them.

Also, I think it's unfair to think of WAAC types as "highly competitive." WAACs aren't interested in competition: they're interested in winning. They're the type who want to stand on the winner's platform and get the gold medal without going through the hassle of actually running the race.

Ah Hearne, if I get you right about not pigeon holing people you mean cos it can lead to:

They're socially awkward but bug me constantly with their old war stories so they're TFG

That one is a rules lawyer who's right 95% of the time and you have to show and argue them in proof for the remaining 5% so they're TFG

This one's play style drives me nuts so they're TFG.

Muggins over here is loud and obnoxious so they're TFG.

When really, they're just different aspects people can have which you may not like but are hardly the end of the world. I do have a few mates I hate gaming with - all types of gaming, but outside of games, I get along with them fine.

It should take something truly outstanding, if you're going to label people at all, before you slap them with the moniker (though I get the idea you aren't one for labelling people full stop). Like the guy I know that knows all the rules, if very obnoxious, WAACs type, cheats regularly (and thinks noone notices), cracks the proverbials if he loses, and lords over smashing ten year olds.

Is that what you meant Hearne or am I off the bat?

CadianCommander wrote:Ah Hearne, if I get you right about not pigeon holing people you mean cos it can lead to:

......

It should take something truly outstanding, if you're going to label people at all, before you slap them with the moniker (though I get the idea you aren't one for labelling people full stop). Like the guy I know that knows all the rules, if very obnoxious, WAACs type, cheats regularly (and thinks noone notices), cracks the proverbials if he loses, and lords over smashing ten year olds.

Is that what you meant Hearne or am I off the bat?

In essence, CadianCommander.. that's it. If you let yourself fall into the trap of putting labels on folks and pigeonholing them, it really creates an expectation within yourself. You expect the next comment out of "that so-and-so" to be aggressive or rude, and so even if that's not their itent, that's what you get.

To boil it all down, there simply will be folks you don't agree with and don't get along with. Like I said, discussing and debating is fine and healthy. Maybe a different perspective is just what you need. But when it becomes personal.. the constructive part of the conversation is over. There's nothing you can do about *their* attitude or behavior.. all you can do is control your own. When ya run into folks that throw a wet blanket on your fun.. just walk away and hang out with those that don't.

akaean wrote:So!

...

People need to chill out in this thread. Dash tends to "come off strong" to put it lightly, but he often knows what hes talking about. And there are usually nuggets of insight buried under his abrasive language. I think certain players in category 3, confuse players in category 2 with players in category 1, then get really frustrated, and blinded by rage, and then can't read past the abrasive language in Dash's posts.
.

An insightful post.

Personally, that kind of 'abrasive language' (I would call it something else) is something I don't enjoy reading. Yes, it's something you may well be thinking (and you are certainly not alone in that regard), but for the most part good manners, and the knowledge that this is a forum that is supposed to be talking about playing with toy soldiers (a pleasurable pastime), dictate that you shouldn't put all of your heartfelt feelings out for everyone to read about. To be frank, it just comes across as bullish and offensive despite the truth at the core of the comments, rammed home with all the subtlety of a E-Honda's flying head butt. And it's essentially stopped all other discussion because people are cowed out of writing any kind of reply.

I would go further, but it would make my post hypocritical, so in the meantime I will just be content with the 'ignore' button.

@Hearne

I getcha. I mean, sometimes you can't avoid the guy that ruins all your fun, like they may be part of your local gaming group and they make you want to beat your head into the wall. Just outright ignoring them except when you absolutely can't tends to help :p

The other danger I can see in labeling people is what earned them that label may be situational.

There's two common camps of RPG players "roleplayers" and "roll players" or people who play story and aren't interested in rules, or people who just wanna throw dice with awesome stats and don't care about the story the GM is telling. Though most rpg players have a healthy dose of both and that's considered to be the better and easier to play with gamer, most people lean more towards one than the other. But they've been labeled as one so get the stigmata of either not caring about rules or ignoring story. Someone normally more interested in rules might be at the culmination of a 12 month long plot they've been running with but a single game mechanic has screwed their little red wagon but by this stage they're not interested in 'that stupid rule' whist someone else fluff wise might be intensely hot on exact mechanics because it's life or death for the character.

Some people have said here that they hate players who care more about fluff than winning. Which is fair enough because that's not going to give you a good, challenging game. Again though this 'can' be situational. Back when L5R used to run global storyline tournaments, what you did on the table effected their canon for the game world wide. I saw one guy sit down, look at the woman he'd been drawn against and conceded immediately. She'd been named at a recent national tournament as her Clan Champion. He played the same clan. He refused - in a global storyline tournament - to play, and risk beating, his Clan Champion. Had it not been a storyline game, he would have played hard to win. But anyone who had saw just that would think he's one of those guys that a few people have mentioned they can't stand but his actions were specific to the tournament being played. We keep meaning to run a planet strike campaign and even though I've not looked at it closely yet, i can see a similar thing happening. But that'll be a friendly run at home so that's okay. If someone repeatedly did it to the detriment of everyone else's game then guys, I'd be in with you and the fist waving.

And even when it's irritating repetitive, some people just grow out of it. But if they've been labeled and known as the local TFG, it can take an age to for them to lose that stigmata.

I'll admit I'm guilty of this. There are guys that when they rock up I groan, or I know they're gonna be there and dread their presence and just don't wanna play or be around them or move to another part of the shop or conveniently have to go do something else if I'm not at the LGS. I have to deal with so many stupid people at work (not my workmates, general public stupid people) and have to be nice and professional and helpful that by the time I leave the office, my tolerance for waffling, arrogance, offensiveness, even racism (gah!!! I hate that so much!!! Just cos I sound like an Anglo Saxon doesn't mean you can slag off people who aren't and I'll be okay with it!!!) and so forth is very thin.

OP perhaps there's just not more TFGs around, maybe your tolerance for it is less now so you see more people than you previously would have as TFG.

best thing to do really is just avoid people you dont mesh with, tolerate them if you have to at the end of the day.

AnGeLsOfDeAtH wrote:Well basically after reading through numerous threads on here and playing at my flgs ive been noticing that there are alot more of TFG's out there. Is this just me or have others noticed and is this turning this game into more of a challenge than a stress relief/ fun time?

In all activities involving other people, the other people can be the best or the worst thing about it.


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NagothDaCleaver wrote:Overly competitive people will ruin anyone's day. Hearing them argue and nit pick rules at the top of their lungs almost incites me to violence.

That isn't a "competitive player", that's a "git".

You can play to win without being an ass.

What about the OTHER TFG? You know, the guy who doesnt care one whit. Someone who shows up with a Hello Kitty paint theme and whoop whoops throughout the game. Seems to me, most of this thread is taken up with the powergamer/WAAC/rules lawyer types. Well, just sos yous knows...there are guys like me who may just show up with fluorescent Orks and Pastel marines. Are we TFG?

haha, fluorescent orks sound cool!

Glow in the dark would be immence to!

redeyed wrote:haha, fluorescent orks sound cool!

Glow in the dark would be immence to!

..Funny you should mention that........I have a pot of glow in the dark paint I was going to use on the edges of a mini. Pics will be forthcoming.

Harriticus wrote: the biggest problems for the game in my mind besides the obvious like the decline of miniture wargaming/the price of the hobby are people simply playing to win and not appreciating any fluff/aestetic aspect, aka those who simply make an army to win tournaments.

There are plenty of successful tournament players with lists that are perfectly fluffy. BA and SW codexes in particular are good for very powerful fluffy lists.

Harriticus wrote:Even if you don't really like the fluff and are just into the game/modelling, there should be a certain entertainment and fun factor to your army.

Is your problem with the fluff-level of the lists or the power-level? Be honest.


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Dashofpepper wrote:
TFG is not the competitive player in your shop.
TFG is the guy who cheats because he's not good enough to compete.
TFG is the guy who causes animosity because he's not good enough to compete with the competitive player.

Well said.

looking forward to the glow in le dark pictures

redeyed wrote:looking forward to the glow in le dark pictures

Is that French darkness?

[billbailey]Look at you with your Parisian darkness[/billbailey]

oui oui oui haha!

bad habit picked up amongst local friends!

anyway I should stop posting off topic hehe! (goes to browse more gallery pictures!)

My favorite TFG is the one that will talk all types of mad gak AFTER the guy they are talking about has packed up his minis and left the store.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!

Sorry i havent been on in a while i geuss this thread obvisouly grew heavily. First off all i wanted to get out of this was to hopefully bring some light to some players eyes that this is just a game. I understand winning of all people i am extremely competitive, however this is a hobby not a way of life and should be treated as such. Secondly i have gotten out in the world just not in the gaming community i was in my bubble in my hometown and than joined the marine corps and quit playing. After i got married my wife encouraged me to get back in the game and have really only been playing the last 2 almost 3 years. So i am kinda new to the outside world of 40k. Third i have no problems with power list builders myself i appreciate the fluff and build my armies based on such because its a hobby to me and its a better time that way to me. Lastely i hope that there are people out there that are willing to teach new players how to play and maybe some minor painting tips and techniques just to help out the young blood that will be the new wave of gamers. So hopefully this hobby will stick around for quite a while longer.

AnGeLsOfDeAtH wrote:Sorry i havent been on in a while i geuss this thread obvisouly grew heavily. First off all i wanted to get out of this was to hopefully bring some light to some players eyes that this is just a game. I understand winning of all people i am extremely competitive, however this is a hobby not a way of life and should be treated as such. r.

The thing is though, for a lot of people it is a 'way of life'. Some people live and breathe the hobby, and many of them post on forums such as these. It's the same for any other hobby or niche interest you care to mention - I used to work in a hobby/gaming store that sold model railway stuff. The arguments that go on regarding the modelling accuracy of new kits, specs of sets (things that seen almost comical to the outsider, as I'm sure a lot of GW stuff would) would make some of the arguments on here look like 2 kittens with cotton candy boxing gloves fighting on a cloud.

So, you're getting the tip/peak of the hobby here so to speak. On the one hand, that's a wonderful thing, being able to talk with like minded individuals and see the other modelling projects on the like here. The downside is sometimes getting the blunt end of a comment from someone who places the hobby higher up their list of priorities than you do. The perspective is different for each of us, and hence the differing conceptions of people being out of line, rude, OTT or whatever.