Me, my friend and his dad play Warhammer 40k and when I play SM his dad plays Orks, and he has Ghazghkull Thraka and will most probably use him. Any tips on defeating him with SM or Tau would be greatly appreciated (my friend plays Tau)!
And yes I have just realized that this should be in 'Warhammer 40k Tactics'.

Tau-Hammerheads or Broadside teams
Space Marines-Lysander is a good beatstick but you might have problems getting him into combat with Ghazzy

Honestly force tons on armor saves. He will fail.

Shoot him to death. Don't assault unless you get the charge. as good as his armor is he cant make all of his rolls so anything that does a lot of shots could potentially take him down.

Thanks, so basically dakka him to death.

Pretty Much.

Think of him as being much like a very powerful Terminator, especially for one turn of the game where his save becomes 2+ Invulnerable.

AP 1 or 2 guns work well vs his armour when he's not mega-waaghing, as do power weapons, and he hits at I 1, so piling a ton of attacks on him first works all too well.

Massed fire from close range rapid-fire weapons like bolters and pulse rifles is effective if you don't mind the possibility that he will survive it and slam into the unit.

Also he is very very slow (Mega Armour) so fairly easy to avoid and shoot up if you can peg his transport.

What about using Meltas, Multi-Meltas, plasma cannons and guns and lascannons. This would work well for the melta weapons as I have Vulkan He'stan who makes them twin linked.

a friend of mine who i play likes throwing his shielded marines and lysander at my ghaz and mega nobs.... its really a crap shoot for who comes out ahead usually the combat lasts at least a few turns btu it does tie up alot of my points (and i'm assumign alot of his)

Interesting

Kravox wrote:Any tips on defeating him with Tau would be greatly appreciated (my friend plays Tau)!

Kravox wrote:Thanks, so basically dakka him to death.

This is what Tau should be doing to everyone, all the time.

I suppose so

Yes. keep him away. Lock the doors... and hope they don't have blasters.

Whatever transport he's in....blow it up. He's slow as gak after that.

Massive, massive amounts of attacks will bring him down. He will fail some of those saves, and sence you will strike first, then you have a chance of the wounds piling up. Unfortunately, horde armies are the best at this, and neither of you are fielding one.

Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators are designed for that manner of threat.

DarknessEternal wrote:Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators are designed for that manner of threat.

I think I agree with that, but I reckon a pair of missle devistator squads could handle him with Krak missiles.

Destroy his transport and shoot him to death are good ideas but that depends. Any ideas on how he's being ran? In a battlewagon with Nobs? In a large mob of Boyz? Double cheese with an extra side of cheese style with Snikrot?

winnertakesall wrote: I think I agree with that, but I reckon a pair of missle devistator squads could handle him with Krak missiles.

Worst advice in the thread. They neither ignore his armor nor cause instant death.

Blow up his transport, use TH/SS Terminators, with or without Vulkan if necessary. On the slim chance that ghazkhull is actually being used effectively, it's not ghaz himself you have to worry about, it's the 6'' waaagh he allows. try to anticipate when he's going to pop his waaagh and have the chaff to throw in front of the charging units, with counterchargers of your own prepared.

Orks have a tough time with lots of armor, especially av14. as the marine player, you can take advantage of this. Try thinking less in terms of one character and more in terms of your overall game plan.

This is why I put him in a squad of 18 boyz in a battlewagon. Its gonna take a little while to dakka through 18 boyz if his ride gets blown up.

dumbuket wrote:

winnertakesall wrote: I think I agree with that, but I reckon a pair of missle devistator squads could handle him with Krak missiles.

Worst advice in the thread. They neither ignore his armor nor cause instant death.

Blow up his transport, use TH/SS Terminators, with or without Vulkan if necessary. On the slim chance that ghazkhull is actually being used effectively, it's not ghaz himself you have to worry about, it's the 6'' waaagh he allows. try to anticipate when he's going to pop his waaagh and have the chaff to throw in front of the charging units, with counterchargers of your own prepared.

Orks have a tough time with lots of armor, especially av14. as the marine player, you can take advantage of this. Try thinking less in terms of one character and more in terms of your overall game plan.

Worked when I did it, but I suppose that was probably sue to just lucky dice rolls.

That would have to be either super luck, or a gak load of missiles.



If you get around his armor save you can put him down rather quickly. So lascannons/meltas will down haz with ease, and possibly in 1 turn if youve got enough of them. Ghaz is a super beast, specially when he gets his charge off, but play keep away and shoot his ass and he will be a joke to your force.

If your against orkz and tau alot, claw termies might help you out a fair bit.
Not usually something people take, but 5 will kill ghaz before he can attack.

will also help chew through boyz and anything tau have. (non AV)

y0disisray wrote:This is why I put him in a squad of 18 boyz in a battlewagon. Its gonna take a little while to dakka through 18 boyz if his ride gets blown up.

depending on how many boys survive the explosion.

Orkymike wrote:

y0disisray wrote:This is why I put him in a squad of 18 boyz in a battlewagon. Its gonna take a little while to dakka through 18 boyz if his ride gets blown up.

depending on how many boys survive the explosion.

This is a valid point. 5 of those boyz will most likely die in the explosion, and if a couple more die, than you won't have fearless anymore, and will have to take a morale check.

Bolters chew through Ork boys just fine. I'll echo the others and say that you should follow the old 40k adage of 'shoot da choppy ones'. Ghaz is about as choppy as you can get, and the response is to adopt the IG strategy of shooting so much at his that he's going to fail his armor/invul saves eventually.

However, don't forget the rest of his army. Even if you kill Ghazzy, there will be lots of other orks around. Don't neglect them.

Jackal wrote:If your against orkz and tau alot, claw termies might help you out a fair bit.
Not usually something people take, but 5 will kill ghaz before he can attack.

will also help chew through boyz and anything tau have. (non AV)

My friend used to run ghaz with about 15-20 (forgot how many you can take) burnaboyz and let me tell u, it destroys termies. especially if he gets the charged. the best bet would be to just dakka him from far away.

Dashofpepper wrote:Whatever transport he's in....blow it up. He's slow as gak after that.

Yep! He also isn't a fan of armour ignoring weapons. True he can get his 2++ for one turn, but every other turn its 5++. That and a bucket of small arms fire... focus him down pretty much. He's tough, but he can drop pretty hard.

My friend used to run ghaz with about 15-20 (forgot how many you can take) burnaboyz and let me tell u, it destroys termies. especially if he gets the charged. the best bet would be to just dakka him from far away.

But they are unrelated people are they not?
and as the OP stated, ghaz runs with boyz in a wagon.
so power weps arent a prob.

also, he had you going if he had more than 15

Using meltas is a bad, bad idea with Ghazkhull because it means you're likely within 12" of him - which is within his 8"-18" threat range. If he charges you, chances are you're going to die. 7x S10 power klaw attacks plus his Boyz will do a lot of damage. If 15 of them get into combat you've got an extra 60 S4 attacks to back him up. Plus if he Waaaaghs! then he's got a 2++, the entire army is fleet for a turn and everybody auto-runs the full distance.

Flamers work well on his boys but he'll laugh off even heavy flamers. Really you need a huge torrent of fire or a unit of TH/SS terminators you don't mind sacrificing.

Oh and if the Ork player is smart, that Battlewagon will have a Deffrolla... Ouch.

So, put vulkan in a squad of assault terminators in a land raider redeemer, followed by a squad of devastators with multi meltas heavy bolter lascannon and another multi melta. The redeemer because flamers work well against orks, with a multi melta for even more melta goodness.

Kill his transport, then focus on the rest of his army whilst he slowly walks up the board. By the time he's a threat again, the game is likely to be either over, or he won't have enough time to make much of an impact.

Of course, if he gets lucky and ends up zooming across the table towards you, level the git with your Broadsides, or tarpit him with Kroot.

S_P

Its been mentioned but assault terminators are a great way to go. People seem to forget them because always talk of TH/SS or just normal terminators. Another unit that might work well is Sternguard. But you get the charge with assault termies, and focus on killing Ghaz, they will then have a decent chance of surviving the assault of the boyz or whatever hes with. Even if the boyz KO the terminators, whats left? Boyz? Well they are not scary

I have used CIB to great effect against ghazzy, 5 shots at bs5 with a chance for ap1? sounds good to me

Jaws of the World Wolf.

*sigh*

yup, fething JOTWW..

Sniping ork specials with the grand canyon is very effective.

Ascalam wrote:*sigh*

yup, fething JOTWW..

Sniping ork specials with the grand canyon is very effective.

You know how many FWs I've lost to that??? Oodles

Ghazzskull will murder anything in CC.

As it has been said before, shoot his transport, and then shoot him until he combusts.

If all else fails, wait till your opponent isn't looking, and try to eat his Ghazskull Thraka model

Have you seen that damn thing!?

Yeah, that would hurt like feth to get out.... It's so pointy too...

Ascalam wrote:*sigh*

yup, fething JOTWW..

Sniping ork specials with the grand canyon is very effective.

Ghazghkull is I4 though, so there's not too much chance of that happening...

Does he have a KFF Big Mek?

If so, he'll probably cross the board safe if he's smart.

May want to tarpit with kroot or something if you can't snipe his BW.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ghazghkull is I4 though, so there's not too much chance of that happening...

Keep doing it, he'll roll a 5+ eventually.

Easiest way=PBS his squad's leadership down to 2, inflict enough casualties to cause a morale test which they fail, and then assault him with guardsmen.

Isn't Ghazzy fearless? And if he isn't, just stick him in a mob of 11+ boyz.

I have a friend that plays SM and I play Ghazzy a lot and he has an anti-Ghazzy list where he takes LC Termies in a Land raider.

What he does is either try to Assault Ghazzy Turn 1 (so he can't Waaagh), or sacrifice another until to waste the Waagh, and then Assault Ghazzy afterwords.

*cough cough* I believe a Brotherhood Champion would kill him, Heroic Sacrifice.....argh, I feel dirty for even bringing it up.

As you should.

Ghaz is a relatively tough badass, by ork SC standards, but compared to some of the IC travesties out there he's a pussycat. I'm amazed that people are that worried about him

Preston wrote:*cough cough* I believe a Brotherhood Champion would kill him, Heroic Sacrifice.....argh, I feel dirty for even bringing it up.

I hate that rule with a passion. I really do. It's probably my least favourite rule in the whole GK codex.

Marbo? No seriously big guns.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Preston wrote:*cough cough* I believe a Brotherhood Champion would kill him, Heroic Sacrifice.....argh, I feel dirty for even bringing it up.

I hate that rule with a passion. I really do. It's probably my least favourite rule in the whole GK codex.

Isnt that the one where he can remove whole models or something along those lines? If so, yea, I HATE the new fad of having rules in just about every new codex that has a "take that model and make it dead....like dead dead NAOW!"

IIRC basically, it let's you sacrifice a model, and then kill one enemy model in base contact. Basically, it lets Brotherhood CHampions one shot C'Tan and other things that SHOULD be tough to kill.

My brotherhood champion is touching the Golden Throne, so foosh, there goes the Emperor..

Yup, pretty ridiculous and annoying.

Thats my point, any rule that lets that happen just get under my skin. There shouldnt be an easy button for beating something that is hard to kill. You know they put those in there for people that CANT figure it out on their own

As an ork player, I'm less worried about Ghaz being killed than I am about him being avoided.

Total his transport and then keep your distance. Repeat if he tries to get in another transport. Send a few shots his way if you can, and you'll wear him down. He'll spend the game waddling around trying to tempt people to come close.

"Hey, you, I've got somefink ta show ya. Come here a minute...KRUMP!"

The Crusader Of 42 wrote:Ghazzskull will murder anything in CC.

As it has been said before, shoot his transport, and then shoot him until he combusts.

If all else fails, wait till your opponent isn't looking, and try to eat his Ghazskull Thraka model

GD of Khorne could rape Ghazzy hard, not sure what you're talking about.

ChrisWWII wrote:IIRC basically, it let's you sacrifice a model, and then kill one enemy model in base contact. Basically, it lets Brotherhood CHampions one shot C'Tan and other things that SHOULD be tough to kill.

when a model with heroic sacrifice dies in CC (not removed from play but reduced to 0 wounds or ID) they may make 1 final roll to hit against something in btb contact. If they hit they and the model in question are removed from play.

Basically you hope he misses, cant pass his psykic test. you can just not attack him, rape the squad he is with and try and force a fallback. then if you catch them you can possibly kill him with no retreat wounds. Of course gazzy cant pursue cuz he is in mega armor.

An archon with a clone field makes short work of heroic sacrifices as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrfantastical wrote:I have a friend that plays SM and I play Ghazzy a lot and he has an anti-Ghazzy list where he takes LC Termies in a Land raider.

What he does is either try to Assault Ghazzy Turn 1 (so he can't Waaagh), or sacrifice another until to waste the Waagh, and then Assault Ghazzy afterwords.

cant he activate his waagh whenever he likes?

It's still overpowered. Nothing should let you one shot kill C'tan, Greater Demons, etc, unless you're in Apoc where vortex and D weapons are flying everywhere.

Or you get boxcars on a SAG.

Anvildude wrote:Or you get boxcars on a SAG.

SAG and Gift of Chaos are allowable just on how unlikely they are to happen. Heroic sacrifice where one hit + a psychic test can let you remove one model is just too much. It's far too reliable to be fair.

What about one or two Callidus Assassins? To be truthful, I don't know much about them. From the little I do know, it seems like a good choice. But I could be wrong.

A Vindicare if anything to break Ghazzy's 2++ save could be quite useful.

A overkill force would be one Vindicare and two Callidus Assassins. That is something that would go with the "just to be sure" phrase.

IIRC you can only take one assassin.

Oh. Well in that case, I would go with a Callidus Assassin. Just one, if used right, could take him out. Plus maybe some support from some other unit.
I am assuming that this is all with the least amount of resources (points+number of units)? Because you could go all out, but that would not be effective.

forruner_mercy wrote:What about one or two Callidus Assassins? To be truthful, I don't know much about them. From the little I do know, it seems like a good choice. But I could be wrong.

no one is going to waste points fielding 2 callidus, just doesn't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

forruner_mercy wrote:Oh. Well in that case, I would go with a Callidus Assassin. Just one, if used right, could take him out. Plus maybe some support from some other unit.
I am assuming that this is all with the least amount of resources (points+number of units)? Because you could go all out, but that would not be effective.

If used right, a firewarrior could kill a GD of Khorne, so that's a moot point.

Good point...I think. I dont really know much about Tau, SM's, or the assassins.

forruner_mercy wrote:Good point...I think. I dont really know much about Tau, SM's, or the assassins.

...40k player not knowing much about SMs, I am having trouble accepting that...

In what way? Me not really knowing their tactics? Or the backstory?

Dashofpepper wrote:Whatever transport he's in....blow it up. He's slow as gak after that.

This. Marines and Tau have great long-range can openers, even against battle wagons. If you're worried about Ghaz and his retinue, just shoot his transport until its stunned or immob, then forget him if he's more than 20" away. From there, either keep backing up, or load him with dakka. He's only powerful if he can catch you, and get into assault, so some smart play will let you out maneuver him once his transport is gone.

Of course, there is always the chance you'll shoot everything, achieve nothing, then his entire army will move-disembark-waaaugh-assault and you insta-lose. Dice are cool, hey?

ChrisWWII wrote:IIRC you can only take one assassin.

I thought it was 1 of each type of assassin.

KingCracker wrote:


I thought it was 1 of each type of assassin.

It could very well be, I'm jsut going off of hearsay. I'm not sure entirerly, so don't quote me on that.

mrfantastical wrote:
I have a friend that plays SM and I play Ghazzy a lot and he has an anti-Ghazzy list where he takes LC Termies in a Land raider.

What he does is either try to Assault Ghazzy Turn 1 (so he can't Waaagh), or sacrifice another until to waste the Waagh, and then Assault Ghazzy afterwords.

cant he activate his waagh whenever he likes?

"Ghazghkrull's Waagh can be summoned at any time, but only once per game, and not on the first tum." (Ork Codex page 58)

KingCracker wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:IIRC you can only take one assassin.

I thought it was 1 of each type of assassin.

Doesn't matter, they were talking about two callidus.

If you're writing up a list specifically to take down Ghaz, your doin' it wrong

forruner_mercy wrote:What about one or two Callidus Assassins? To be truthful, I don't know much about them. From the little I do know, it seems like a good choice. But I could be wrong.

they are unique so you can only take one.
they arrive and put a hurting on anything with low leadership but a good armor save. Then they get shot to hell. One Krak missile they fail to dodge and they are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisWWII wrote:A Vindicare if anything to break Ghazzy's 2++ save could be quite useful.

a vindi cannot break gazzy's 2+ save


Automatically Appended Next Post:

forruner_mercy wrote:A overkill force would be one Vindicare and two Callidus Assassins. That is something that would go with the "just to be sure" phrase.

gazzy is immune to ID and a callidus is going to sit out in the open for a turn after he deep strikes and get shoot up. either one rokkit or a lot of dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrfantastical wrote:
"Ghazghkrull's Waagh can be summoned at any time, but only once per game, and not on the first tum." (Ork Codex page 58)

dam you fine print.

Exergy wrote:
a vindi cannot break gazzy's 2+ save

Why not? Isn't that what the shield breaker round does?

Ghazzy's 2++ save comes from his Waaagh. Vindicare can break his 5++ save, however.

Exergy wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:What about one or two Callidus Assassins? To be truthful, I don't know much about them. From the little I do know, it seems like a good choice. But I could be wrong.

they are unique so you can only take one.
they arrive and put a hurting on anything with low leadership but a good armor save. Then they get shot to hell. One Krak missile they fail to dodge and they are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisWWII wrote:A Vindicare if anything to break Ghazzy's 2++ save could be quite useful.

a vindi cannot break gazzy's 2+ save


Automatically Appended Next Post:

forruner_mercy wrote:A overkill force would be one Vindicare and two Callidus Assassins. That is something that would go with the "just to be sure" phrase.

On your first point, that logic can be applied to anything below T6 w/o eternal warrior. Railgun much?

Also, the Vindicare CAN pierce Ghazzy 2++. Look up the vindicare ammunition rules.

gazzy is immune to ID and a callidus is going to sit out in the open for a turn after he deep strikes and get shoot up. either one rokkit or a lot of dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrfantastical wrote:
"Ghazghkrull's Waagh can be summoned at any time, but only once per game, and not on the first tum." (Ork Codex page 58)

dam you fine print.

Surely though his Waagh IMPROVES his Invunerable save to a 2++?

When Waaagh!ing, Ghazzy's surrounded by a field of pure Waaagh! energy, watched over by Gork and Mork themselves, so that he shall ne'er be struck down while spreading the Waaagh!! to all corners of the galaxy, and beyond!

Depending on the exact wording of the rules for the Vindicare assassin, that could mean it's vulnerable to the shield breaker.

ChrisWWII wrote:Depending on the exact wording of the rules for the Vindicare assassin, that could mean it's vulnerable to the shield breaker.

yes it removes invulnerable saves confered by wargear. Mega armor does not confer an invulnerable save


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, the Vindicare CAN pierce Ghazzy 2++. Look up the vindicare ammunition rules.

clearly I have read the ammunition rules. The shield breaker removes invulnerable saves conferred by war gear. So that takes away his 5++. Mega armor does not confer an invulnerable save, thus it is not removed. Gazzy has special rules that make his save invulnerable. The vindy's shield breaker does not remove special rules.

on both counts there are several threads in YMDC that explain this. This is the tactics section.

What the WAAAGH does is turn his armor save into an invulnerable save.

Thus Mega Armor 2+ turns into Mega Armor 2++.

I can see that one argued both ways, but I personally think the Shield Breaker kills off his WAAAGH save because the 2++ is conferred by the interaction of a special rule with wargear, not by a special rule or non-wargear origin alone.

I'm tempted to agree with sourclams, if the wording of Ghazzie's WAAAGH is that it turns his 2+ armor save granted to him by Mega Armor into an invul save, then technically the invul save is being given to him by the Mega Armor.

I think the shield breaker only doesn't work on things like Daemons who have a 5+ invul save thanks to being daemons.

ChrisWWII wrote:I'm tempted to agree with sourclams, if the wording of Ghazzie's WAAAGH is that it turns his 2+ armor save granted to him by Mega Armor into an invul save, then technically the invul save is being given to him by the Mega Armor.

I think the shield breaker only doesn't work on things like Daemons who have a 5+ invul save thanks to being daemons.

The wording on gazzy is that any armor save he has becomes invunerable. It does not mention his mega armor but that is the best save he has.

And his armor save is conferred by wargear.

WAAAGH turns his armor save into an invulnerable save.

Thus his invulnerable save is conferred by the interaction of wargear and a special rule.

It just says his save becomes invulnerable. It doesn't mention Wargear, so I don't think it applies.

And what does he get saves from?

Wargear. Cybork Body and Mega Armor.

Take away the wargear (what shield breaker affects) and he has no save.

This is unlike a Carnifex, for example, which simply has a 3+ save.

I'd have to agree with Sourclams.

However, if someone was to supply a direct quote from the Ork Codex, then this'd be MUCH easier

From Codex: Orks

"Wargear: Ghazghkull has... a cybork body, mega-armour..."

"Ghazghkull's Waaagh! last the remainder of that player turn and all the remaining player turn. During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable."

Hmm, looks like I'm wrong...

so The wargear grants his Save. Waaagh makes his Save into an invun.

Shieldbreaker gets rid of any Invunerable Save granted by Wargear correct?

YAY FOR BEING RIGHT!

I take it back! Enjoy your moment of glory, chaps!

Bloodhorror wrote:so The wargear grants his Save. Waaagh makes his Save into an invun.

Shieldbreaker gets rid of any Invunerable Save granted by Wargear correct?

That's how I read it.

So by far the most reliable way to kill Ghazzie is to shoot him with the shield breaker, repeatedly if necessary, and then keep shooting him with Vindicare or waltz over with S5+ power weapons and gib him in CC.

Does the Shield Breaker round remove one Invulnerable Save per shot? Or all with one? So, for example, would you have to do one for the 2++ and again for the 5++?

Or what if you hit him and removed the 5++ and the Ork player then Waaagh!'d to get the 2++, would they still be able to use it having been Shield Broken previously?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should really be able to answer this, I have both Codex: Orks and Codex: Grey Knights in front of me.

(Sidenote: I loved Daemonhunters but, having bought the GK Codex to see if it was as bad as I feared, it's worse. I don't think I'm going to play them again... Wait, so my Terminator Armour gets Terminator Armour? Waaaaaaaaaaaaaard!)

Awesome !


Shame i don't play Grey Knights ¬¬


Darn Dark Eldar, Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines!!!

Back to Blasting the Sh*t outta him with Splinter shots, Disintegrator Cannons and Other goodies ^^

sourclams wrote:And what does he get saves from?

Wargear. Cybork Body and Mega Armor.

Take away the wargear (what shield breaker affects) and he has no save.

This is unlike a Carnifex, for example, which simply has a 3+ save.

shield breaker does not affect mega armor as mega armor does not provide an invulnerable save. The wargear section refers you to page 39, "Mega Armor confers a 2+ save and includes both a twin linked shoota and a power claw"
The wargear does not provide an invulnerable, therefore it is not removed. The special rule provides the invulnerableness.

Waaagh says his save is invulnerable. We assume that means his 2+ from mega armor, but who knows maybe he has another 2+ from somewhere else. It is simply in his profile as 2+

There's two ways to read it.

One, Ghazzie is a normal Warboss with additional special character rules, with the 6+ t-shirt save that is innate to a warboss. Because Ghazzie has Mega Armor and Cybork, he also benefits from a PK, t/l Shoota, 2+/5++, all due to his wargear allotment.

In this reading, Shield Breaker takes away all of his saves during his WAAAGH. Why? Because the saves granted by his wargear become 2++/5++. This is the effect of the WAAAGH, not, as you wrote:

The wargear does not provide an invulnerable, therefore it is not removed. The special rule provides the invulnerableness.

The special rule does NOT provide an invulnerable. The special rule modifies the wargear to provide an invulnerable. That's the distinction that makes or breaks the Shield Breaker.

There is, however, as you note, a second way to read it. The second way to read it is that Ghazzie is not a normal warboss, and simply has a 2+ save. In addition he has Cybork Body for a 5++ and Mega Armor for an additional 2+ save with a PK and Big Shoota and the SAP debuff.

Under this reading, WAAAGH could convert Ghazzie's 'innate' 2+ save into a 2++ save, the shield breaker would still ignore his 5++ from Cybork and his 2++ from Mega Armor, but would bounce off of this third, 'innate' save.

Because, to me, the second reading makes no sense, I still think that shield breaker goes straight through WAAAGH-modified Mega Armor.

Hmm, that said, sourclams, none of the other Ork characters have armour saves that relate to their Wargear. They're all just assigned a value. Zagstruk gets a 4+ yet he has no Ard Boyz armour. Mad Dok Grotsnik has a 4+ save but he only has a Cybork Body...

There is nothing that states Ghazzy's 2+ save specifically comes from his Mega Armour rather than something which he merely has himself, and you can have a save come from two different places, or more.

Well seeing as the model doesn't have any other explained source of an armour save, one must Assume that the Mega Armour is the source of his 2+ Armour Save

Bloodhorror wrote:Well seeing as the model doesn't have any other explained source of an armour save, one must Assume that the Mega Armour is the source of his 2+ Armour Save

But there is a precedent set by the other Special Characters in Codex: Orks, as I mentioned. People have saves that can not be attributed to any Wargear, there isn't anything to suggest Thraka is any different. Like I mentioned, Zagstrukk has a 4+ save and no Wargear that would explain it.

In which Case GW screwed up there

but for Ghaz, there is a Wargear to represent his lovely 2+ and 5+ (which is what i think Cybork Body is for?)

Hmm well only his stat line is listed on his page or in the summary with the save of 2+. There's no mention of his 5++ or any of his Wargear-boosted stats anywhere, only that he has a Cybork Body.

On that basis, it would seem that they gave him a natural 2+ save AND Mega Armour AND Cybork Body, otherwise it'd say 2+/5+ save in his stats.

Yes, but it also does the same thing with Mega Armoured Nobz...

are you trying to tell me that they have a Natural 2+ Armour save AND Mega Armour?


Mega Armour gives Ghaz his 2+
Cybork Body gives Ghaz his 5++


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Miraclefish wrote:On that basis, it would seem that they gave him a natural 2+ save AND Mega Armour AND Cybork Body, otherwise it'd say 2+/5+ save in his stats.

Also using your Theory, Bloodthirsters have a 4+ Invun and Iron Hide.

However it only says the 4+ Invun in the Stat Line?

Think about it this way, a Space Marine has a 3+ armor save, thanks to power armor. It's listed in his wargear, and thus listed as his save. However, if you took away the power armor, the Marine would lose the 3+ armor save, I'm sure we can all agree on that.

I'd argue that, if Ghazzy lakced his Mega Armor, he'd also lack his 2+ save. It's just illogical to assume that he has a 2+ save just for being Ghazzy, and the burden of proof is on Exergy to show that the 2+ save is innate to Ghazzy, rather than being gifted by the armor. I agree with sourclams that it's illogical to assume that it's innate, unless proven otherwise.

I actually agree. But what about, for example, the other Ork characters who have saves unrelated to/unaccounted for by their wargear?

Exactly what i was trying to say ^^!

Terminators and Strom Shields are a good example as well.

2+ due to TDA and 3++ for SS.

Take the SS off and he has a 5++ for being in Termi Armour.

Take the Termi Armour off and he no longer has a 2+ or a 5++

But you do have a Sexual Assualt Charge.

I'd say those are the exception to the rule that armor saves are granted by wargear rather than innate. MOST models have a wargear item that grants them their armor save, HOWEVER, some models, like the Orks you listed, do not, and thus count their armor saves as innate. Likely due to a typing mix up somewhere along the line, but that's what we have to work with, so we can't do much about it.

Miraclefish wrote:I actually agree. But what about, for example, the other Ork characters who have saves unrelated to/unaccounted for by their wargear?

There just REALLY unlucky

Miraclefish wrote:I actually agree. But what about, for example, the other Ork characters who have saves unrelated to/unaccounted for by their wargear?

Yours is a good point and the short answer is: I don't know how to account for it. What I do know is that there's very little internal or external conssitency with GW writing due to a total lack of editing, so unlike with a technical manual I expect there to be a lot of gray areas that the rules leave ambiguous.

If Zagstruck had Ghazzie's WAAAAGH, then I would be forced to say that the shield breaker could not take away his 4++ because I can't identify where that armor save comes from. But because I can (or at least I think I can) identify the origin of Ghazzie's 2+ armor save, and it's congruent with a Meganobz' 2+ armor save, and furthermore this is congruent with how other special characters like Lysander, Calgar, and Draigo are written, I'm willing to say that shield breaker should work in this case.

WOOO! Lysander!

Sourclams, I think you've got the bones of it. Now, here's one that'll pickle your noggin:

Pre-Waaaagh!, Ghazzy gets shot by a Shield Breaker, losing him his 5++ for the Cybork Armour, leaving him with a 2+ save.

Next turn, he Waaagh!s, does his armour save become 2++?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:WOOO! Lysander!

Yes, quite...

Shieldbreaker destroys wargear that confer an invulnerable save.

Mega-Armour does not confer an invulnerable save - neither a 2+ nor a 5+. It has a clear codex entry explaining precisely what it does. The fact that Ghazghkull Thraka can once per game declare a Waaaugh! and gain a game turn 2++ invulnerable save does not mean that the invulerable save comes from his mega armour. It does not. It comes from his Waaaugh special rule.

Shieldbreaker lets you kill wargear that gives invul saves. It doesn't let you negate special rules that confer invulnerable saves, nor does it give you the power to add to the wargear section and ink in associations between invul saves and wargear that doesn't grant it.

Might as well attach his invul save to his big shoota. Poof. No more gun for you Ghazghkull. Attach it to his Adamantium Skull. Poof! You just lost your invul save *and* Eternal Warrior. Take that.

In fact, that's a great idea. When I start playing GK with my Vindicare, I'm going to start claiming that IC invulnerable saves that aren't specified come from the Iron Halo, or whatever gives the character EW. So I can break it, then ID them.

The only reason I'd disagree with you Dash is because, apparently, the WAAAGH special rule says that it turns his save into an invul save. Now, we agree that the mega armor confers a 2+ ARMOR save, and that it in and of itself does not confer an invul save. HOWEVER, the WAAGH special rule also does not give a '2++' invul save, it just says that it makes Ghazzies existing saves invulnerable, and since Ghaz gets his regular saves from his mega armor, he gets the invul save from his mega armor as well, thanks to an interaction between the special rule and his wargear.

If Ghaz didn't have mega armor, but instead wore flak armor, his invul save would only be a 5++ since his save that gets turned into an invul save would only be a 5+.

I told you guys, the 2++ comes from the vortex of pure Waaagh!! energy swirling around him as he channels his gods.


The rule says his Saving throw becomes 2++, not that his Mega Armour's saving throw becomes invuln, or that his Invuln save becomes better. His saving throw, not his armours or wargear's. It might even mean that his basic 6+ save from being an Ork would get better.

Anvildude wrote:I told you guys, the 2++ comes from the vortex of pure Waaagh!! energy swirling around him as he channels his gods.

that has no effect on how the rules work

Dashofpepper wrote:Shieldbreaker lets you kill wargear that gives invul saves. It doesn't let you negate special rules that confer invulnerable saves, nor does it give you the power to add to the wargear section and ink in associations between invul saves and wargear that doesn't grant it.

WAAGH doesn't give an invul save. It turns his armor save, which is granted by wargear, into an invuln save. You can't have a wargear-granted armor save that isn't a wargear-granted invuln save when the special rule turns your armor save into an invuln save.

The only thing left to argue over, then, is whether Ghaz simply has a 2+ armor save, or if his 2+ armor save results from his Mega Armor.

Anvildude wrote:I told you guys, the 2++ comes from the vortex of pure Waaagh!! energy swirling around him as he channels his gods.


The rule says his Saving throw becomes 2++, not that his Mega Armour's saving throw becomes invuln, or that his Invuln save becomes better. His saving throw, not his armours or wargear's. It might even mean that his basic 6+ save from being an Ork would get better.

The SVoW swirls AROUND HIS MA!!! Hence the whole rule thing...

Thing is, the rule doesn't say it's his armour save that becomes 2++, just his "saving throw". His Mega Armour has a 2+, his Cyborky bitz have a 5++, and his skin and very being has a 6+. Since you can only take one saving throw per wound, that suggests that it makes all his saves 2++, including the non-wargear one granted by his skin.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The SVoW swirls AROUND HIS MA!!! Hence the whole rule thing...

Are you on Crack....?





Moving on, i can see this issue having Equal Voteage, so i'm bailing and leaving it until the FAQ

If it'll ever appear....

There was an interesting (read 'never-ending') debate on whether it also took away Abbadon's 4++ save too...

Cus it improved his Invun save granted by his termi armour :L?

And seeing as it wasn't a Mark of Tzeentch it didn't give him a 6++?



Or am i flame Baiting here ?

Haha yeah, he has a 4++ save, which theoretically is his 5++ for Terminator Armour improved by +1 for Mark of Tzeentch....

Anvildude wrote:Thing is, the rule doesn't say it's his armour save that becomes 2++, just his "saving throw". His Mega Armour has a 2+, his Cyborky bitz have a 5++, and his skin and very being has a 6+. Since you can only take one saving throw per wound, that suggests that it makes all his saves 2++, including the non-wargear one granted by his skin.

IIRC it doesn't even make his saving throw 2++, if it did that, we wouldn't have an argument. Instead it makes his SAVING throw an invul save. Since his saving throw would usually be a 2+, he has a 2++. The qquestion is now, whether that 2+ saving throw come from mega armor, or from him being Ghazzy. I say it comes from his armor, thus can be destroyed by a shield breaker shot.

Im with dash on how that would work against Ghaz. The prophet of the WAAAGH! is a special rule, not a piece of wargear. How bout you guys list all the wargear that confers an invulnerable save. Go ahead, infact while your at it list all the ORK wargear that confers an invulnerable save. Ill give the first one of you that can show proof that the Prophet of the Waaaaagh! is a piece of wargear, a fresh $50 bill.


Now taking away his 5+ due to cybork body is an easy yes, because THAT is a piece of wargear.

We're not saying that it's a piece of wargear. We're saying that the rule makes the 'save' invulnerable, and the 2+ save is granted by the mega armor, thus the save is from wargear in an indirect way.

The real question is whether an Ork in Mega Armour (or 'eavy armour for that matter) still has his 6+ Orky Hide save underneath, and then whether or not the Waaagh!! energy makes all Ghazzy's saves Invulnerable, or just one, since it says "during this period [Ghazzy's] saving throw is invulnerable", which suggests that it's whichever saving throw he makes, instead of a specific one.

Anvildude wrote:Thing is, the rule doesn't say it's his armour save that becomes 2++, just his "saving throw". His Mega Armour has a 2+, his Cyborky bitz have a 5++, and his skin and very being has a 6+. Since you can only take one saving throw per wound, that suggests that it makes all his saves 2++, including the non-wargear one granted by his skin.

Actually, that should about settle it.

Where Ghazghkull has a 2+ armour save, 5++ natural invul save, and a 6+ armour save...on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! he now gets a 2++ invul save instead of a 2+ armour save. A 2++ Invul save instead of a 5++ invul save. And a 2++ invul save instead of a 6+ armour save.

Shield break his 2++ away, he's got two more of them lined up, neither from wargear.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Anvildude wrote:Thing is, the rule doesn't say it's his armour save that becomes 2++, just his "saving throw". His Mega Armour has a 2+, his Cyborky bitz have a 5++, and his skin and very being has a 6+. Since you can only take one saving throw per wound, that suggests that it makes all his saves 2++, including the non-wargear one granted by his skin.

Actually, that should about settle it.

Where Ghazghkull has a 2+ armour save, 5++ natural invul save, and a 6+ armour save...on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! he now gets a 2++ invul save instead of a 2+ armour save. A 2++ Invul save instead of a 5++ invul save. And a 2++ invul save instead of a 6+ armour save.

Shield break his 2++ away, he's got two more of them lined up, neither from wargear.

I think you horribly, horribly misinterpreted that.

Not sure if ive mis-read but has anyone noticed in C: CSM termies and or lords don't get their invuns from their armour it just says 5+ invun so this means vindicare can't break their saves as its not wargear



and in main post i recommend a brotherhood champion if not just lots of small arms fire or a fast vehicle he just can't catch or long ranged shoot enough heavy bolter Rbs at him and he would fail something pretty quick.

ChrisWWII wrote:We're not saying that it's a piece of wargear. We're saying that the rule makes the 'save' invulnerable, and the 2+ save is granted by the mega armor, thus the save is from wargear in an indirect way.

Doesnt the shield breaker say a piece of wargear that grants an invulnerable save? Again, I dont own the codex and only read it once, so Im a tad foggy on the wordings of rules.

KingCracker wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:We're not saying that it's a piece of wargear. We're saying that the rule makes the 'save' invulnerable, and the 2+ save is granted by the mega armor, thus the save is from wargear in an indirect way.

Doesnt the shield breaker say a piece of wargear that grants an invulnerable save? Again, I dont own the codex and only read it once, so Im a tad foggy on the wordings of rules.

Yes, that is correct. The Mega Armour grants a 2+ armour save, and the folks here are arguing that on the Waaaugh!, Mega Armour is giving Ghazghkull a 2++ invul save. So that they can shield break his mega armour. =p Its not an idea supported by the rules in any way though. Mega Armour doesn't grant invulnerable saves.

Here's a question then!

Saint Celestine gets a 2+ invun if she uses the right act of faith as it makes her armour save invunerable. I'd say shield breaker would work on this as it's the same principle is it not?

Dashofpepper wrote:

Actually, that should about settle it.

Where Ghazghkull has a 2+ armour save, 5++ natural invul save, and a 6+ armour save...on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! he now gets a 2++ invul save instead of a 2+ armour save. A 2++ Invul save instead of a 5++ invul save. And a 2++ invul save instead of a 6+ armour save.
Shield break his 2++ away, he's got two more of them lined up, neither from wargear.

I think the fact remains that as far as I know, the WAAAGHing Ghazzie gets his regular saves as an invul save, so you can break his first 2++ invul save. Yes, he still has 2 other saves, so you'll still get to roll to save, but the 2++ invul save is gone.

KingCracker wrote:
Doesnt the shield breaker say a piece of wargear that grants an invulnerable save? Again, I dont own the codex and only read it once, so Im a tad foggy on the wordings of rules.

Indeed it does. Our argument is that since Ghazzies WAAAGH rules say his SAVE become invulnerable, not that he gets a 2++ save. If it said he got a 2++ save, then I'll switch sides right away. However, it doesn't, it makes his saves invulnerable, and his 2++ invul save comes from his 2+ armor save, which is given to him by his mega armor, which--as a piece of Wargear--can be destroyed by a shield breaker shot. The invul save that is, I'm not saying his mega armor is gone now...just that the invul save he got as a result of it is gone.

I think this bears repeating.

Ghazzie has a 2+ Armor Save from his Mega Armor.
Prophet of the WAAAGH makes his 'saving throw' invulnerable.
Since he has a 2+ Armor Save, his saving thow while under Prophet of the WAAAGH is invulnerable.
This 2++ invul save comes about as a result of the intereaction between a piece of wargear (the mega armor's 2+ save) and a special rule (makeing the saving throw invulnerable)
Thus, the 2++ invul save is granted, albeit indirectly, by a piece of Wargear, as if Ghazzy did not have his Mega Armor, he would not have his 2+ save to make invulnerable.

Throw the deceiver at him.

Problem fix number 1: Hit-and run, good with pathfinders cuz of their d-fish and str 5 shots.

Problem fix number 2: railgun.

Problem fix number 3: JSJ with FB.

Problem fix number 4: sneak up behind ghazzy and pants him then run away. He will be so embarrassed that he will just leave.

Problem fix number 5: Diplomacy.

Every single option (not 4) is unique to the Tau, cuz were just that good.

So by that logic if you use the shieldbreaker round on the 2++ then he loses that piece of wargear correct? So after the WAAAGGGGHHH!!!!! He would no longer have mega-armour. . . That is rather silly if you ask me.

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:So by that logic if you use the shieldbreaker round on the 2++ then he loses that piece of wargear correct? So after the WAAAGGGGHHH!!!!! He would no longer have mega-armour. . . That is rather silly if you ask me.

Indeed.

And ChrisWWII, Ghazghkull has THREE unique sources of 2++ saves on the Waaaugh. *ALL* of his saving throws turn into 2++ saves. His regular invul *also* turns into a 2++ save. Not the same 2++ being claimed to be granted by the Mega Armour 2++. So if you shield break his wargear, he still has a 2++ because his 5+ innate invulnerable save has also been turned into a 2++ invulnerable save; which is *not* granted by wargear.

Dashofpepper wrote:

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:So by that logic if you use the shieldbreaker round on the 2++ then he loses that piece of wargear correct? So after the WAAAGGGGHHH!!!!! He would no longer have mega-armour. . . That is rather silly if you ask me.

Indeed.

And ChrisWWII, Ghazghkull has THREE unique sources of 2++ saves on the Waaaugh. *ALL* of his saving throws turn into 2++ saves. His regular invul *also* turns into a 2++ save. Not the same 2++ being claimed to be granted by the Mega Armour 2++. So if you shield break his wargear, he still has a 2++ because his 5+ innate invulnerable save has also been turned into a 2++ invulnerable save; which is *not* granted by wargear.

They don't all turn into 2++, they all turn invulnerable, not sure where your getting your facts from...

@ Unforgiven, It wouldn't take his MA, it would take the inv property of it away.

im2randomghgh wrote:

@ Unforgiven, It wouldn't take his MA, it would take the inv property of it away.

No...that's just making things up. It destroys wargear that grant invulnerable saves.

So if it works, Ghazghkull would lose his mega-armour.

However, Mega Armour doesn't grant an invul save. Its right there in the codex. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

@ Unforgiven, It wouldn't take his MA, it would take the inv property of it away.

No...that's just making things up. It destroys wargear that grant invulnerable saves.

So if it works, Ghazghkull would lose his mega-armour.

However, Mega Armour doesn't grant an invul save. Its right there in the codex. =p

It DOES grant an inv save, one turn a game *troll smile*

Bloodhorror wrote:Take the Termi Armour off and he no longer has a 2+ or a 5++

But you do have a Sexual Assualt Charge.

Terminators don't file charges--they issue them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alphacerberus wrote:Not sure if ive mis-read but has anyone noticed in C: CSM termies and or lords don't get their invuns from their armour it just says 5+ invun so this means vindicare can't break their saves as its not wargear

as a CSM player it pains me to say you've misread. In the wargear section on Terminator Armour (p. 86), it says "A model wearing terminator armour has a 2+ Armour Save and a 5+ Invulnerable Save."

Dashofpepper wrote:
And ChrisWWII, Ghazghkull has THREE unique sources of 2++ saves on the Waaaugh. *ALL* of his saving throws turn into 2++ saves. His regular invul *also* turns into a 2++ save. Not the same 2++ being claimed to be granted by the Mega Armour 2++. So if you shield break his wargear, he still has a 2++ because his 5+ innate invulnerable save has also been turned into a 2++ invulnerable save; which is *not* granted by wargear.

To be honest, I'm not sure where you're pulling that. Ghazzies rules for Prophet of the Waagh say nothing about making all his saving throws 2+ invulnerables. It just says that his saving throw becomes invulnerable. Since he's in mega armor, and his armor save is a 2+, his thrown save becomes a 2++. If he just hard 'Ard Boy armor, it'd be a 4++, and if he had just his regular Orkyness it's be a 6++. I'm not sure where you're saying he has three 2++, as I only see one source of a 2+ armor save in Ghazzies profile.

I agree that it is pants on head stupid to say that the Vindies shield breaker destroys mega or Terminator armor. I pray they fix it in the FAQ, but going by the grammar of the RAW, we have to say that his 2++ invul save can be broken by shieldbreaker. Now, would I play it as it destroys his armor for the rest of the game too? No, cause that's just stupid, but thanks to bad wording, that is RAW.

If you can show me where in the Codex it says that Ghazzy, while on his Waaagh gets a 2++ save I'll believe you. However, my reading says that it doesn't change his saves to a 2++, it just changes them into an invulnerable save, instead of an armor save.

Demiurg Stronghold Battleship class-My pride and joy. Just thought I'd put that out there

im2randomghgh wrote:

Problem fix number 4: sneak up behind ghazzy and pants him then run away. He will be so embarrassed that he will just leave.

That'd never happen if Makari was still around.






*snif*

ChrisWWII wrote:


Since he's in mega armor, and his armor save is a 2+, his thrown save becomes a 2++.

That is correct. He gets a 2++ save. However, the invulnerable save isn't granted by the Mega Armour, its granted by the Prophet of the Waaaugh - which is not wargear.

But if he wasn't in Mega Armor, then his invul save wouldn't be a 2++, it'd be whatever his highest save was. If he was in power armor it'd be a 3++, carapace a 4++. That's the crux of what we're saying here.

Prophet of the WAAAGH does not say Ghazzie gets a 2++...it just says he gets his save as an invul save. Since his save comes from his armor, the invul save is coming from his armor as well, since the invul sae is just a transformation of the armor save into an invul save.

First to clear out all the misquoting:

"Shield Braker: When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken."(Codex: Grey Knights pg. 53)

"Mega Armor:[fluff] Mega armor confers a 2+ armor save and includes both a twin-linked shoota and a power klaw. A model wearing mega armor has the Slow and Purposeful special rule."(Codex: Orks pg. 39)

"Prophet of the Waagh!: Ghazghkull's Waaagh! lasts the remainder of that player turn and all the following player turn. During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable." (Codex: Orks pg. 58)

Prophet of the Waagh! grants Ghazghkull's an invulnerable saving throw, not Mega armor or any other piece of wargear. Mega armor never ever grants an invulnerable save, not even during the Waaagh!, as some people claim, none of the rules tell you to change the wargear or it's save. Note that any cover save Ghazghkull has would become invulnerable, too. Mega armor can not be affected by Shield Braker in any way. During a Waagh! the mega armor still grants an armor save, which is then turned into an invulnerable save by PotW!. This is not the same as granting an invulnerable save. A fictional "armor breaker" which removes any armor saves, would still be able to remove the 2+ save during Ghazghkull's Waaagh!, and in turn decrease the invulnerable save to his cover/cybork save.

If you'd want to get to really hair-splitty RAW, there is no rule stating saves printed on a statlines are actually the exact same one the piece of armor that model is wearing confers. It just tells you worn armor confers a saving throw, but not the other way arround.

This has come up on YMDC multiple times, and there has been not rules backup for Shieldbreaker working on anything but cybork for Ghazghkull Thrakka.

Im glad some people are getting it. I dunno how many times I can point out that the Prophet of the WAAAAGH! ISNT A PIECE OF WARGEAR. And the shield breaker states right in its own profile, that it negates the invulnerable granted by wargear. Seems to me that some GK players just want an easy way to kill off the 1 thing we have that puts on waders and walks through their army.

While "Walks through their army" means, he can actually kill something in close combat without being force weaponed or purged by fire.

I don't even PLAY Grey Knights, and I'm as aghast at this ruling as everyone else. I have no desire to see Grey Knights become any more powerful, and I have no incentive to do so, given as I'll only be facing Grey Knights, not pplaying as them.

However, I have to repeat, I am not syaing that Propphet of the WAAAGH! is a piece of Wargear. I know it's not. No one is disputing that it is a special rule. HOWEVER, if you read the rule it does not say 'Ghazzie has a 2+ invulnerable save'. It says his saving throw is invulnerable. Prophet does not give him an invulnerable throw, it just makes his existing throw invulnerable.

Ghazzie gets his 2+ armor save from his mega armor, no one seems to be arguing this. If he didn't have his mega armor, he wouldn't have a 2+ armor save. Prophet turns this 2+ armor save (granted by Mega Armor) into an invulnerable save. The save is still given by mega armor, just modified from stanard mega armor rules by the special rule 'Prophet of the WAAAGH!' Yes, mega armor never grants an invul save, until it is acted upon by the Prophet of the WAAAGH special rule, which turns its save into an invulnerable save.

If someone can show me either: a) Where it says Prophet of the WAAAGH grants a 2+ invulnerable save instead of just modifying existing saves into invulnerable or b) show that Ghazzy's 2+ armor save is intrinsic to him, and not granted by a piece of wargear, then I'll switch sides immediately. Until then, I stand by what I say that Ghazzies 2+ invul save can be broken by a shieldbreaker, due to being granted indirectly by his armor.

ChrisWWII wrote:But if he wasn't in Mega Armor, then his invul save wouldn't be a 2++, it'd be whatever his highest save was. If he was in power armor it'd be a 3++, carapace a 4++. That's the crux of what we're saying here.

Prophet of the WAAAGH does not say Ghazzie gets a 2++...it just says he gets his save as an invul save. Since his save comes from his armor, the invul save is coming from his armor as well, since the invul sae is just a transformation of the armor save into an invul save.

The problem with this argument....is that you're making an attempt to logically explain how something comes into existence in 40k. You may not do so. You have a rulebook and a codex. You do not have permission to assign attributes or saves to wargear that they do not have, to either logically or fluffily add benefits to wargear that do not already exist there....and that's what this is. Mega Armour does not grant a 2++. Wargear that grants invulnerable saves are *very* clearly outlined in their codex entries. Find yourself an entry for "Stormshield" and read it. Read the Mega-Armour Entry. You have no room, permission, or reason to start creating rules to suit your needs like this.

Prophet of the Waaaugh! does not say that for one turn, his Mega-Armour gains a 2++ invulnerable save. Nor does it say that for one turn, any piece of his wargear grants him a 2++ invulnerable save. Instead, it instructs you to take your saves as invulnerable saves for a turn.

Prophet of the WAAAUGH! is GRANTING the 2++.
Mega-Armour is CAUSING the Invul save to have a value of 2++.
Mega-Armour is not granting the 2++.

Let me say that again.

Shield Breaker negates Invulnerable saves granted by wargear.

Prophet of the Waaaugh! is the special rule GRANTING the invul save.
Mega-Armour is the wargear defining the VALUE of the invul save.

Shield-breaking Mega-Armour doesn't remove his invulnerable save, it merely changes the value of it - because the invulnerable save doesn't depend on the wargear, which is the requirement for shield-breaker...meaning that you can't shield break non-invul save granting wargear like Mega-Armour.

However....this crap has been said over and over and...over and over in this thread, albeit in a bunch of different ways. What matters is this: It won't fly in a tournament, I'll bet money that no major event organizer would let this one stand. And if this rules nancying were happening at a tournament I was judging....*grins*

I'll ignore the more powerful stuff, as it is implying I'm discussing this for my own good, which is false and insulting. It is highly unlikely for this situation to ever come up for me, and if it does, I want it played by the rules, not by the way most profitable to me.

A unit's saving throw is not the same as the armor saving throw. The saving throw is the best one of your saves.

until it is acted upon by the Prophet of the WAAAGH special rule, which turns its save into an invulnerable save.

This is the wrong part. The rule does not turn the armor's save into an invulnerable save, it turn's Ghazghkull's save into an invulnerable save(exact wording). His save is either from cover or his wargear or another units wargear(KFF). It could even be his thick hide making him 2+. You do not know in advance. In order to figure out his saving throw, you have to check his cybork save, his cover save and his armor save, then pick the best one. Up till now none of those are changed in any way. Then you change the saving throw to invulnerable because of the Prophet of the Waagh! rule. If you compare this to the Shield Breaker wording, you'll notice that shield breaker "destroys" saves before any of this happened, thus finding only a 2+ armor save and doing nothing to it.

b) show that Ghazzy's 2+ armor save is intrinsic to him, and not granted by a piece of wargear

WH40k does not work that way. There is no rule showing any stat line save is ever actually gained from the wargear piece and would be lost if the wargear is lost. Mad Dok Grotznik has a 4+ armor save without any armor even modeled onto him, let alone mentioned in the rules, for example. A second example would be ork boyz. There isn't even armor granting a 6+ save in the codex. Also see BRB pg.7 which only has a really vague definition of armor saves, basically allowing you to call any armor save "intrinsic" by RAW.

Just because his best save comes from wargear, which is in turn made into an invulnerable save, it still is not an invulnerable save granted from wargear. Without Prophet of the Waaagh! he would not have this save. Ghazghkull Thrakka does not wear a single piece of wargear granting him a 2++ save, which means the save is actually granted by a special rule, based on the best save, no matter the source, even if the actual word "granted" does not appear. There is no such thing as "granted indirectly by wargear", even if there was, it would still be different from "granted by an item of wargear" and unaffected by shield breakers. Unless you can point to a piece of wargear granting a 2++ save, Ghazghkull doesn't have one.

Ork wisdum:

Shoota de choppa...

Choppa de shoota...

Orkservations:
Ghaz is quite choppy... Ork wisdum days we shoota him boss.

QuietOrkmi wrote:Ork wisdum:

Shoota de choppa...

Choppa de shoota...

Orkservations:
Ghaz is quite choppy... Ork wisdum days we shoota him boss.

well...

as helpfull as THAT was ¬¬

Dashofpepper wrote:
Prophet of the Waaaugh! is the special rule GRANTING the invul save.
Mega-Armour is the wargear defining the VALUE of the invul save.

That I can agree with. Prophet grants it...Mega Armor defines it works for me, and avoids the idiocity of destroying wargear like mega armor.

Glad to be on the same side then.

And Bloodhorror, QuietOrkmi was being helpful to the OP - the rest of the discussion has been a YMDC tangent.

The easiest way I have found to kill ghazghul is to bog down the unit he is in with as much as you can. For example, if Ghazghul is in a unit of 30 boys, and I assault the boyz with 2 squads of khorne berzerkers(not impossible to set up) then you can wipe out all of the boyz around ghazghul and either over run him, or make him take tons of saves due to combat res.

Ghazghul is a beast, but if you need to kill him, combat res is the way to do it in my opinion.

You could still use the Vinidicate to knock off cybork's 5++ invul save, then just pour AP2 ire into him. Without the invul save, he should go down fairly quickly to lascannons and plasma fire.

ChrisWWII wrote:You could still use the Vinidicate to knock off cybork's 5++ invul save, then just pour AP2 ire into him. Without the invul save, he should go down fairly quickly to lascannons and plasma fire.

Ghazghkull Thraka tends to be in one of three places:

1. In a battlewagon, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't hurt him.
2. In close combat, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't hurt him.
3. In cover, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't get a benefit for him not having a 5+ Invul save.

Bloodhorror wrote:

QuietOrkmi wrote:Ork wisdum:

Shoota de choppa...

Choppa de shoota...

Orkservations:
Ghaz is quite choppy... Ork wisdum days we shoota him boss.

well...

as helpfull as THAT was ¬¬

it was very relevant to the OP actually... just not as relevant to what you guys have turned the argument into. the op wasn't askign how many saves ghaz gets but how to deal with him from 2 specific armies, SM and tau ... somehow it morphed into if a specific rule for a different army than OP listed can deal with Ghaz... really after the first page its gone to gak.

With all Ork Taktics aside...

You have a few options with dealing with Ghaz...

1: Blow up the transport he rode in on... Then the unit has to take a pinning test, then tank shock the unit repeatedly until he starts to flee or uses his Waaagh! prematurely... proceed to step 2...
2: Wait the entire turn out that he has his 2++ save. then smack him around when he only has a 5++ save to fall back on.

As for the shield breaker debate, I will meet halfway. You can get rid of the 2++ save while he has a 2++ save... You cannot get rid of something that never existed or has yet to exist. Shield break before the WAAAGH! and all you can nab is the 5++ save. Shoot him during the WAAAGH! and you can nab the 2++ save. If I gave anymore to the other side of the debate, you could theoretically get rid of any save if the save could possibly become invulnerable for any reason...

Dashofpepper wrote:

Ghazghkull Thraka tends to be in one of three places:

1. In a battlewagon, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't hurt him.
2. In close combat, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't hurt him.
3. In cover, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't get a benefit for him not having a 5+ Invul save.

I should have added 'if he's in the open with no body around him, like no half-decent Ork player would do'.

In all honesty, my advice on Thraka is to try and kill his transport as far away as possible, so he can't get to you as fast. (Assuming a Mech Ork army). If he's leading a Green Tide, then pray you have enough templates to thin out his ablative wounds/extra attacks. There's no real easy way to kill him, if your opponent is anwhere near decent.

Someone mentioned throwing the Deceiver at him...

But even that is not optimal. =p There are usually much juicier targets for the Deceiver to assault. Nobs that get insta-gibbed with no saves allowed, Boy mobs that can't hurt him, Battlewagons...every game I play against Thraka, the Deceiver is needed elsewhere, and Ghazghkull romps around trying to get into base with monoliths, which I've thus far managed to avoid all but once.

I honestly don't think that there is a "best way" to kill Ghazghkull; but rather, you should look for effective means to neutralize his close combat utility.

Jidmah wrote:While "Walks through their army" means, he can actually kill something in close combat without being force weaponed or purged by fire.

Yea cause EVERY army has force weapons and cleansing flame

also have you tried yarrick

Jidmah wrote:First to clear out all the misquoting:

"Shield Braker: When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken."(Codex: Grey Knights pg. 53)

"Mega Armor:[fluff] Mega armor confers a 2+ armor save and includes both a twin-linked shoota and a power klaw. A model wearing mega armor has the Slow and Purposeful special rule."(Codex: Orks pg. 39)

"Prophet of the Waagh!: Ghazghkull's Waaagh! lasts the remainder of that player turn and all the following player turn. During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable." (Codex: Orks pg. 58)

Prophet of the Waagh! grants Ghazghkull's an invulnerable saving throw, not Mega armor or any other piece of wargear. Mega armor never ever grants an invulnerable save, not even during the Waaagh!, as some people claim, none of the rules tell you to change the wargear or it's save. Note that any cover save Ghazghkull has would become invulnerable, too. Mega armor can not be affected by Shield Braker in any way. During a Waagh! the mega armor still grants an armor save, which is then turned into an invulnerable save by PotW!. This is not the same as granting an invulnerable save. A fictional "armor breaker" which removes any armor saves, would still be able to remove the 2+ save during Ghazghkull's Waaagh!, and in turn decrease the invulnerable save to his cover/cybork save.

If you'd want to get to really hair-splitty RAW, there is no rule stating saves printed on a statlines are actually the exact same one the piece of armor that model is wearing confers. It just tells you worn armor confers a saving throw, but not the other way arround.

This has come up on YMDC multiple times, and there has been not rules backup for Shieldbreaker working on anything but cybork for Ghazghkull Thrakka.

Without the MA, the save would not be 2++. It would be 5++. So the 2 part of the 2++ is from mega armour. MA=wargear. Without the wargear, he would not have 2++ save, therefore Shield Breaker would remove the 2++, with Ghazzy choosing between a 5++ or a 2+.

See Dash's argument at the top of this page. He nicely refutes that argument. Considering I was the one arguing it for a good 3 pages, I think I can vouch to say that it's a very convincing argument.

5 Termies with Force-Halberds and 1 with Brotherhood banner.

Goodbye Ghaz.

@im2randomghgh: Your argument is irrelevant, and refuted incontrovertibly by an uncontested claim.

@InquisitorVaron: 5 Termies with Force-Halberds and 1 with Brotherhood banner....are going to get eaten up. They'll strike first, bounce off a 2++ invulnerable save, and even if one gets through, Ghazghkull can't be Instant-Killed. In return....well, lets just say that you're not going to come out ahead.

Dashofpepper wrote:@im2randomghgh: Your argument is irrelevant, and refuted incontrovertibly by an uncontested claim.

@InquisitorVaron: 5 Termies with Force-Halberds and 1 with Brotherhood banner....are going to get eaten up. They'll strike first, bounce off a 2++ invulnerable save, and even if one gets through, Ghazghkull can't be Instant-Killed. In return....well, lets just say that you're not going to come out ahead.

Uncontested claim? This entire conversation has been about contesting that claim...not much else has been said since pg.1...

Dashofpepper wrote:
The problem with this argument....is that you're making an attempt to logically explain how something comes into existence in 40k. You may not do so. You have a rulebook and a codex. You do not have permission to assign attributes or saves to wargear that they do not have, to either logically or fluffily add benefits to wargear that do not already exist there....and that's what this is. Mega Armour does not grant a 2++. Wargear that grants invulnerable saves are *very* clearly outlined in their codex entries. Find yourself an entry for "Stormshield" and read it. Read the Mega-Armour Entry. You have no room, permission, or reason to start creating rules to suit your needs like this.

Prophet of the Waaaugh! does not say that for one turn, his Mega-Armour gains a 2++ invulnerable save. Nor does it say that for one turn, any piece of his wargear grants him a 2++ invulnerable save. Instead, it instructs you to take your saves as invulnerable saves for a turn.

Prophet of the WAAAUGH! is GRANTING the 2++.
Mega-Armour is CAUSING the Invul save to have a value of 2++.
Mega-Armour is not granting the 2++.

Let me say that again.

Shield Breaker negates Invulnerable saves granted by wargear.

Prophet of the Waaaugh! is the special rule GRANTING the invul save.
Mega-Armour is the wargear defining the VALUE of the invul save.

Shield-breaking Mega-Armour doesn't remove his invulnerable save, it merely changes the value of it - because the invulnerable save doesn't depend on the wargear, which is the requirement for shield-breaker...meaning that you can't shield break non-invul save granting wargear like Mega-Armour.

That claim.

I wasn't asking which claim, I was stating that the last few pages have been entirely devoted to contesting it.

im2randomghgh:

Its been addressed and refuted. Shieldbreaker does not take away Ghazghkull's 2++. If you wish to explain why you think it does, you need to read what ChrisWWII just quoted to you....and refute my argument.

You can opinine all day long that Ghazghkull gets no saves, that trees are blue, but while incontrovertible evidence stands that declares the opposite of your opinion, all you have is an invalid opinion.

MA(2+) PotW (+)=2++

The Inv. save was made 2++ by the MA (wargear).

2++ is made 2++ by wargear. Smash the Inv. characteristic of the MA with SB rounds, and our orky hero ends up having these options for his save: 2+, 5++, 5+, 6++ and 6+. There are no two ways about it.

im2randomghgh wrote:MA(2+) PotW (+)=2++

The Inv. save was made 2++ by the MA (wargear).

2++ is made 2++ by wargear. Smash the Inv. characteristic of the MA with SB rounds, and our orky hero ends up having these options for his save: 2+, 5++, 5+, 6++ and 6+. There are no two ways about it.

Repeating what has been disproven without addressing what disproved it doesn't lend weight to the disproven argument. I promise. And as demonstrated, proven, written in the codex: The invulnerable save is not granted by the Mega Armour. The value of the Invulnerable save *is* granted by the Mega Armour. However, the invulnerable save stems from "Prophet of the Waaaugh" not from Mega Armour.

I'm repeating myself here, but as further proof, if you were allowed to shield break mega armour - ghazghkull thraka would still have invulnerable saves. He would probably have a 4+ invulnerable save, a 5+ invulnerable save, a 6+ invulnerable save...and it isn't their wargear granting it, it is the Prophet of the Waaaugh! special rule.

Or repeating myself again for you: If you shieldbreak a piece of wargear on Ghazghkull Thraka, and his invulnerable save doesn't go away, then the invulnerable save wasn't granted by the wargear.

And repeating myself again for you in yet another way. Mega armour doesn't grant an invulnerable save, it only tells Prophet of the Waaugh! what kind of invulnerable save that the Prophet special rule is going to give.

I do encourage you to try this in real life though, and tell us all about it.

Dashofpepper is right the rest are wrong, if there is anything more to say about it then move this to the rules section.

As for the OP Dashofpepper is right again, there is no good way to kill him. The best is to take out his transport early and make him crawl towards your line or similarly deny combat to him and thus negate his combat utility.

bagtagger wrote:Dashofpepper is right the rest are wrong, if there is anything more to say about it then move this to the rules section.

As for the OP Dashofpepper is right again, there is no good way to kill him. The best is to take out his transport early and make him crawl towards your line or similarly deny combat to him and thus negate his combat utility.

Or field a GD of Khorne and wipe him out in one/two turns without even realising he was there. Seriously, nothing beats a GD of Khorne in melee, except maybe a GD of Slaanesh, they're about even.

DoP, I still think I'm right, but I will stop arguing for two reasons: 1. I don't run Orks or Ordos so it doesn't affect me-at all, and 2. Because I can't see this going anywhere productive.

KingCracker wrote:

Jidmah wrote:While "Walks through their army" means, he can actually kill something in close combat without being force weaponed or purged by fire.

Yea cause EVERY army has force weapons and cleansing flame

Every army shooting shield breakers does.

I told my Baal pred to sick em and what do you know no more mr big tough im da ork boss.

Jidmah wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Jidmah wrote:While "Walks through their army" means, he can actually kill something in close combat without being force weaponed or purged by fire.

Yea cause EVERY army has force weapons and cleansing flame

Every army shooting shield breakers does.

Splitting hairs

OR field a Tau Manta. Nothing beats a Manta. Almost a meter across...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's like a kite...

Are we talking APOC now? Because this becomes an area of what wouldnt beat Ghaz in APOC. All titans/super heavies would shoot him to death wouldnt they?

Only if he doesn't reach them first

Yes thats true, but Im assuming Mr Thraka isnt magically teleported on the ankle of a titan

KingCracker wrote:Are we talking APOC now? Because this becomes an area of what wouldnt beat Ghaz in APOC. All titans/super heavies would shoot him to death wouldnt they?

I think so, I mean if I saw Ghaz running at me, and I had a Vortex missile, he'd be pretty high on the list of things I want to shoot with it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

bagtagger wrote:Dashofpepper is right the rest are wrong, if there is anything more to say about it then move this to the rules section.

As for the OP Dashofpepper is right again, there is no good way to kill him. The best is to take out his transport early and make him crawl towards your line or similarly deny combat to him and thus negate his combat utility.

Or field a GD of Khorne and wipe him out in one/two turns without even realising he was there. Seriously, nothing beats a GD of Khorne in melee, except maybe a GD of Slaanesh, they're about even.

DoP, I still think I'm right, but I will stop arguing for two reasons: 1. I don't run Orks or Ordos so it doesn't affect me-at all, and 2. Because I can't see this going anywhere productive.

Actually Thraka would beat most Greater Daemons. He's higher strength, has a better Invulnerable save during the Waaagh! turn, gets more attacks on the charge and, crucially, is almost never, ever on his own but is surrounded by up to 20 or so ablative wounds often toting S9 weapons and Cybork Bodies of their own...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingCracker wrote:Yes thats true, but Im assuming Mr Thraka isnt magically teleported on the ankle of a titan

Well, funnily enough, there's a thing called 'Ere We Go...

Or he infamous 'outflanking giant armoured Ork Titan suppository' thing..

^^ on my ghaz/mad doc power list they are each in a battlewagon with 9 mega nobz all with cybork bodies ... i'd definatly charge any GD out there heck nothign comes to mind that i wouldn't charge with them

this list is kinda rediculous i should note... its almost purely meganobs in battlewagons with 2 grot units for holding stuff ... and thats it

My first response to that list would be to start lobbing shells at the Gretchin, no offense. If I kill them/make them run away, it'll be hard for you to win in objectives. I'm confident in my blob's tarpit abilities.

Usually all nobz are scoring during Apoc, as you can get a warboss for each of them

But we're not playing apoc...

chris it is a fluf flist not a competative lists... none of my lists are competative just meant to be fun. that pretty much describes every list i play, and as a guard player usually against guard people throw chimera missles at the nobs hoping for lots of hits after popping the battlewagons(and trying to run the grots off objectives if applicable of coarse) , then lots of flashlight shots on em cause they will not make all of thier saves. still a very fun list to field

Orks are my favorite army in Apocalypse.

I had a 10,000 point game and the core of my army was 10 Cyber-Stompas with a Big Mek using a KFF inside each...10 Lifta-Droppas, 10 Supa-Gatlas, a bunch of D-weapons...nothing like picking up land raiders and tossing them across the field onto other vehicles and causing automatic penetrating hits!

Back on the topic of PBS. It doesn't matter if Ghaz is fearless, once he joins a unit he's subject to whatever rules the unit is subject to. If the unit is nobs or meganobs all the IG player has to do is kill 25% of them. If the unit is boys the IG player has to knock the squad size down to 10, which will certainly kill 25% of the squad in the process.

Second most possible humiliating death for Ghazz=PBS down to leadership 2, force a morale test, and charge him with S2 WS2 T2 ratlings. The first and foremost humiliating way to kill Ghaz would be to do the same thing in a doubles game, except kill him with an allied ork player's grots instead of ratlings.

^ most humiliating ghaz death i've seen was double one's hit on a SAG all models in d6 (inthis case 4) inches removed from play... took out his 2 hq and some mega nobs >_< he was using ghaz and the meganobs to hold an objective and make it rough to take (i was scratchign my head from the start and secretly hopign for double one's) cleaned up the remaining meganobs with looted wagon fire

Jidmah wrote:First to clear out all the misquoting:

"Shield Braker: When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken."(Codex: Grey Knights pg. 53)

"Mega Armor:[fluff] Mega armor confers a 2+ armor save and includes both a twin-linked shoota and a power klaw. A model wearing mega armor has the Slow and Purposeful special rule."(Codex: Orks pg. 39)

"Prophet of the Waagh!: Ghazghkull's Waaagh! lasts the remainder of that player turn and all the following player turn. During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable." (Codex: Orks pg. 58)

Prophet of the Waagh! grants Ghazghkull's an invulnerable saving throw, not Mega armor or any other piece of wargear. Mega armor never ever grants an invulnerable save, not even during the Waaagh!, as some people claim, none of the rules tell you to change the wargear or it's save. Note that any cover save Ghazghkull has would become invulnerable, too. Mega armor can not be affected by Shield Braker in any way. During a Waagh! the mega armor still grants an armor save, which is then turned into an invulnerable save by PotW!. This is not the same as granting an invulnerable save. A fictional "armor breaker" which removes any armor saves, would still be able to remove the 2+ save during Ghazghkull's Waaagh!, and in turn decrease the invulnerable save to his cover/cybork save.

If you'd want to get to really hair-splitty RAW, there is no rule stating saves printed on a statlines are actually the exact same one the piece of armor that model is wearing confers. It just tells you worn armor confers a saving throw, but not the other way arround.

This has come up on YMDC multiple times, and there has been not rules backup for Shieldbreaker working on anything but cybork for Ghazghkull Thrakka.

exactly!

Dashofpepper wrote:Orks are my favorite army in Apocalypse.

I had a 10,000 point game and the core of my army was 10 Cyber-Stompas with a Big Mek using a KFF inside each...10 Lifta-Droppas, 10 Supa-Gatlas, a bunch of D-weapons...nothing like picking up land raiders and tossing them across the field onto other vehicles and causing automatic penetrating hits!

The lifta droppa has been my fav tool in the entire game since I first read about it. Ive never used it as Ive never played APOC, but who can argue with what the thing does

Yup. It Lifta's, then it Droppa's.

Like how Shootas shoot, Choppas chop, and Burnas burn. Big Choppas are big choppas, (or are used to choppa big stuff), Dakkaguns go Dakkadakkadakka, Sluggas slug (in all senses of the word, except the slimy one), Deffgunz make you Deff, Stompas stomp, etc.


Orky tech is pretty cool like that. Unlike Bolters, which don't bolt, or pistols which don't really piss.

Greater Daemon of Khorne vs. Ghazzy.

I`ll add points for things sthe daemons better at, and minus for things it`s worse at.

WS: +4
BS: +2
Str: +2
T: +1
W: +0
I: +1
A: +0
Sv: -2

+8 for GD of Khorne. I know it`s a weird way to compare, but it`s still effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now I`ll do a GD of Slaanesh.

WS: +2
BS: +2
Str: +1
T: +1
W: +0
I: +6
A: +1
Ld: +1
Sv: -2

+12

The problem with the greater demon is it can't kill ghaz in one turn and then what happens is ghaz and his retinue of mega nobz will easily beat the greater demon down

Nurgle:

WS: +0
BS: +2
Str: +1
T: +1
W: +1
I: -2
A: -1
Ld: +1
Sv: -2

+1


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bagtagger wrote:The problem with the greater demon is it can't kill ghaz in one turn and then what happens is ghaz and his retinue of mega nobz will easily beat the greater demon down

Who says the GD won`t be surrounded be an enormous horde of Blood Letters, and, though it would be wasteful, I could field several GD, whereas there can only be one Ghazzy. Plus, this is about GD vs. Ghazzy.

All of those daemon comparisons to Ghaz need to remember that he's STR10, not STR5. He has no option to be STR5 either.

Dashofpepper wrote:All of those daemon comparisons to Ghaz need to remember that he's STR10, not STR5. He has no option to be STR5 either.

I am just using the GW website statline, as I don't have, and would never consider getting orks codex/army.

Either way, except for the Nurgle Daemon, they still pull out WAAAAY in the lead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I have proven my point, GDs rape Ghazzy in the ass. The only reason that the Nurgle daemon is behind is that this doesn't represent special rules. This is also why I didn't include a Lord of Change, since their baseline stats are nothing like worth the points, it is only their unbelievable psychic powers that are really a redeeming property.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:All of those daemon comparisons to Ghaz need to remember that he's STR10, not STR5. He has no option to be STR5 either.

I am just using the GW website statline, as I don't have, and would never consider getting orks codex/army.

Either way, except for the Nurgle Daemon, they still pull out WAAAAY in the lead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I have proven my point, GDs rape Ghazzy in the ass. The only reason that the Nurgle daemon is behind is that this doesn't represent special rules. This is also why I didn't include a Lord of Change, since their baseline stats are nothing like worth the points, it is only their unbelievable psychic powers that are really a redeeming property.

Actually if you wanted to prove your point you could I dunno. . . do some math?

MrDrumMachine wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:All of those daemon comparisons to Ghaz need to remember that he's STR10, not STR5. He has no option to be STR5 either.

I am just using the GW website statline, as I don't have, and would never consider getting orks codex/army.

Either way, except for the Nurgle Daemon, they still pull out WAAAAY in the lead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I have proven my point, GDs rape Ghazzy in the ass. The only reason that the Nurgle daemon is behind is that this doesn't represent special rules. This is also why I didn't include a Lord of Change, since their baseline stats are nothing like worth the points, it is only their unbelievable psychic powers that are really a redeeming property.

Actually if you wanted to prove your point you could I dunno. . . do some math?

Fine. I'll repost with the math (Ghazzy vs. Gd of Kh and Sl only) shortly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0

GD assaulting.

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy has 1 wound left at the end of GD turn one.

Ghazzy Turn one: WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD turn 2: repeat until combat finished.

End result: GD wound-either 1 or 0.
Ghazzy wounds: 5

Please don`t post until I have finished all my mathhammer posts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0.5

GD Assaulting

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy turn 1: activated prophet of the Waaagh!
WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD Turn 2:
WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 or 4 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 or 3 wounds.
2++ inv. save.
More than 50% chance of final wound (I know, lame MH)

Combat to GD again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
reverse GD turns one and two for GD assault Ghazzy who already has PotW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If someone does a Ghazzy assaulting simulation, then I will do a GD of SL sim.

Ghazghkull can activate PotW on the GD's turn; he always has that 2++ for the first two rounds of combat, no matter who assaults.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Ghazghkull can activate PotW on the GD's turn; he always has that 2++ for the first two rounds of combat, no matter who assaults.

GD still wins.

GD attacking PotW Ghazzy has 50% ish chance to wound, and so does Ghazzy. This means theyèd be about even until Ghazzy PotW wears off, because the turn it does, he will die. 2 turns of 50% chance to hit=1 wound. 1 Turn of GD without PotW= three wounds on top of the other wounds. Cut, it is done.

im2randomghgh wrote:

MrDrumMachine wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:All of those daemon comparisons to Ghaz need to remember that he's STR10, not STR5. He has no option to be STR5 either.

I am just using the GW website statline, as I don't have, and would never consider getting orks codex/army.

Either way, except for the Nurgle Daemon, they still pull out WAAAAY in the lead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I have proven my point, GDs rape Ghazzy in the ass. The only reason that the Nurgle daemon is behind is that this doesn't represent special rules. This is also why I didn't include a Lord of Change, since their baseline stats are nothing like worth the points, it is only their unbelievable psychic powers that are really a redeeming property.

Actually if you wanted to prove your point you could I dunno. . . do some math?

Fine. I'll repost with the math (Ghazzy vs. Gd of Kh and Sl only) shortly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0

GD assaulting.

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy has 1 wound left at the end of GD turn one.

Ghazzy Turn one: WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD turn 2: repeat until combat finished.

End result: GD wound-either 1 or 0.
Ghazzy wounds: 5

Please don`t post until I have finished all my mathhammer posts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0.5

GD Assaulting

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy turn 1: activated prophet of the Waaagh!
WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD Turn 2:
WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 or 4 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 or 3 wounds.
2++ inv. save.
More than 50% chance of final wound (I know, lame MH)

Combat to GD again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
reverse GD turns one and two for GD assault Ghazzy who already has PotW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If someone does a Ghazzy assaulting simulation, then I will do a GD of SL sim.

You really need to learn the assault rules. Only model that hits on a 2+ in close combat is Kharn, everyone else can AT BEST hit on a 3+ (sometimes re-rollable blah blah). Striking back AT WORST is a 5+, however in order to do that you have to have a weapon skill of double +1 and as Ghaz is WS 6 I don't see the blood thirster with a 13 weapon skill so try it with him hitting on a 4+.

MrDrumMachine wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

MrDrumMachine wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:All of those daemon comparisons to Ghaz need to remember that he's STR10, not STR5. He has no option to be STR5 either.

I am just using the GW website statline, as I don't have, and would never consider getting orks codex/army.

Either way, except for the Nurgle Daemon, they still pull out WAAAAY in the lead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I have proven my point, GDs rape Ghazzy in the ass. The only reason that the Nurgle daemon is behind is that this doesn't represent special rules. This is also why I didn't include a Lord of Change, since their baseline stats are nothing like worth the points, it is only their unbelievable psychic powers that are really a redeeming property.

Actually if you wanted to prove your point you could I dunno. . . do some math?

Fine. I'll repost with the math (Ghazzy vs. Gd of Kh and Sl only) shortly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0

GD assaulting.

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy has 1 wound left at the end of GD turn one.

Ghazzy Turn one: WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD turn 2: repeat until combat finished.

End result: GD wound-either 1 or 0.
Ghazzy wounds: 5

Please don`t post until I have finished all my mathhammer posts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0.5

GD Assaulting

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy turn 1: activated prophet of the Waaagh!
WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD Turn 2:
WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 or 4 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 or 3 wounds.
2++ inv. save.
More than 50% chance of final wound (I know, lame MH)

Combat to GD again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
reverse GD turns one and two for GD assault Ghazzy who already has PotW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If someone does a Ghazzy assaulting simulation, then I will do a GD of SL sim.

You really need to learn the assault rules. Only model that hits on a 2+ in close combat is Kharn, everyone else can AT BEST hit on a 3+ (sometimes re-rollable blah blah). Striking back AT WORST is a 5+, however in order to do that you have to have a weapon skill of double +1 and as Ghaz is WS 6 I don't see the blood thirster with a 13 weapon skill so try it with him hitting on a 4+.

Blood Thirster has much better WS than kharn, in fact it is physically impossible for it to be better.

When WS is equal to defenders WS it is 4+. For every point of difference in favour of the attacker, subtract one from the number. 2+ is correct.

I'd rather like to see a Ghazzy assault, now. But I'm rather bad at Mathammer, so I'm unable to do it myself.


However, I'd like to see the difference a Waaagh!! banner in Ghazzy's retinue, as well as Ghazzy getting the charge, would make on that. Lets just assume the two retinues are busy fighting each other and are leaving the big boys to duke it out between themselves

Jesus, what are you talking about? you need to read the rules. The hitting chart is different from the wounding chart which it seems is where you're getting those to hit rolls from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
my coment is referring to the epic fail mathhammer post

Sorry about the MH fail, I play Tau and so dont ever need to assault.

Anvildude wrote:I'd rather like to see a Ghazzy assault, now. But I'm rather bad at Mathammer, so I'm unable to do it myself.


However, I'd like to see the difference a Waaagh!! banner in Ghazzy's retinue, as well as Ghazzy getting the charge, would make on that. Lets just assume the two retinues are busy fighting each other and are leaving the big boys to duke it out between themselves

Keep in mind that Ghazghkull doesn't benefit from the Waaaugh! banner with any unit, nor does he get a retinue.

Ghazghkull needs a 4+ to hit anything with a weapon skill higher than him. You need double+1 to need 5+, and at WS6, he would need an opponent who is WS13.

Generally speaking, Ghazghkull is going to hit on 3+, sometimes 4+, and always wound on a 2+ with his STR10 powerklaw.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Anvildude wrote:I'd rather like to see a Ghazzy assault, now. But I'm rather bad at Mathammer, so I'm unable to do it myself.


However, I'd like to see the difference a Waaagh!! banner in Ghazzy's retinue, as well as Ghazzy getting the charge, would make on that. Lets just assume the two retinues are busy fighting each other and are leaving the big boys to duke it out between themselves

Keep in mind that Ghazghkull doesn't benefit from the Waaaugh! banner with any unit, nor does he get a retinue.

Ghazghkull needs a 4+ to hit anything with a weapon skill higher than him. You need double+1 to need 5+, and at WS6, he would need an opponent who is WS13.

Generally speaking, Ghazghkull is going to hit on 3+, sometimes 4+, and always wound on a 2+ with his STR10 powerklaw.

Except against T7 MC...

He wouldn't get +1 ws from a nob's waaah banner?

im2randomghgh wrote:


GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0

GD assaulting.

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy has 1 wound left at the end of GD turn one.

Ghazzy Turn one: WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD turn 2: repeat until combat finished.

End result: GD wound-either 1 or 0.
Ghazzy wounds: 5

Please don`t post until I have finished all my mathhammer posts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0.5

GD Assaulting

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy turn 1: activated prophet of the Waaagh!
WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD Turn 2:
WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 or 4 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 or 3 wounds.
2++ inv. save.
More than 50% chance of final wound (I know, lame MH)

Combat to GD again.

Yes, if you check the "To hit" chart, it's either 3+ or 4+, never 2+ unless you have fancy rules saying that.


So, Ghazzy's at WS6, GD at WS10? That's a 3+ for the GD to hit, Ghazzy hits back on a 4+.

So, say Ghazzy gets the charge off, better yet, with his Waaagh!!.

Ghazzy attacks at Init 1, so GD first.

GD: 6 attacks at WS10, 3+ to hit. That's a 2/3 chance, so 4 hits.

I'm guessing Str 6 if he's not charging, so Str 6 (GD) vs. T5 (Ghaz), hits on 3+, that's 2/3 of them wound. 2.6 wounds.

2++ save with Ghazzy's PotW charge, means saving 1/6 of them, =.44 successful wounds. That's a good chance of no wounds, first turn, with Ghazzy charging PotW.

Ghazzy attacks back, WS6 to WS10, 7 attacks on the charge (adamantium skull, Ghaz gets an extra attack on the charge), hits on 4+. 3.5 hits.

Str10 (Ghaz) vs. T6, wounds on 2+, so 5/6 of them wound, that's 2.91 wounds.

4++ save, that's 2/3 taken, that's 1.45 wounds in the end.

Next assault phase, Ghazzy still has PotW, but not the extra 2 attacks, so 2.5 hit, 2.01 wound, half are saved, that's 1 wound that Ghazzy does to the GD, GD still only does .44

Oh, and is the GD Fearless? If so, he's been taking Fearless wounds.

Any subsequent turns, Ghazzy does 1 wound, GD does (without Ghazzy's 2++,) 1.7. So by the end of it, Ghazzy would win, but only by a slim margin, having taken 3 of his 4 wounds (unless they're taking Fearless wounds, which I don't even know how that would work out.)

On the turn the GD charged, W/out PotW active (for whatever reason,) GD would do 4.6 hits, Str7 vs T5 = 2+ to wound, so 3.8 wounds, 5++ save, so 1/3 saved, 2.5 wounds done.

If Ghazzy had PotW, only .63 wounds done to him.

All in all, fairly even. A good Ork player probably wouldn't assault a GD without the Waaagh!!, so would probably win with the 2++. If the GD assaulted, it'd probably win. Of course, that's keeping retinues with things like Waaagh!! banners out of it...

bagtagger wrote:He wouldn't get +1 ws from a nob's waaah banner?

No. Re-examine the IC rules in the main rulebook.

People where i come from always give the IC the extra ws and fnp from the group of nobz they roll with, I will check it over

A painboy definitely gives attached ICs FNP. Why wouldn't a Waagh! Banner give them +1 WS?

Anvildude wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:


GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0

GD assaulting.

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy has 1 wound left at the end of GD turn one.

Ghazzy Turn one: WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD turn 2: repeat until combat finished.

End result: GD wound-either 1 or 0.
Ghazzy wounds: 5

Please don`t post until I have finished all my mathhammer posts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GD of Khorne vs. Ghazzy v1.0.5

GD Assaulting

GD turn 1: six attacks. WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 wounds.
MC pens armour automatically.
5+ cybork inv. save (I think it`s inv. anyways)
3 wounds.

Ghazzy turn 1: activated prophet of the Waaagh!
WS6 vs. WS 10=6 to hit
If he`s lucky, one hit.
Str 10 VS. T6=2+ to wound.
1 wound.
4++ save
50% chance for one wound.

GD Turn 2:
WS 10 vs WS 6=2+ to hit.
5 or 4 hits.
Str 7 vs. T5=2+ to wound.
4 or 3 wounds.
2++ inv. save.
More than 50% chance of final wound (I know, lame MH)

Combat to GD again.

Yes, if you check the "To hit" chart, it's either 3+ or 4+, never 2+ unless you have fancy rules saying that.


So, Ghazzy's at WS6, GD at WS10? That's a 3+ for the GD to hit, Ghazzy hits back on a 4+.

So, say Ghazzy gets the charge off, better yet, with his Waaagh!!.

Ghazzy attacks at Init 1, so GD first.

GD: 6 attacks at WS10, 3+ to hit. That's a 2/3 chance, so 4 hits.

I'm guessing Str 6 if he's not charging, so Str 6 (GD) vs. T5 (Ghaz), hits on 3+, that's 2/3 of them wound. 2.6 wounds.

2++ save with Ghazzy's PotW charge, means saving 1/6 of them, =.44 successful wounds. That's a good chance of no wounds, first turn, with Ghazzy charging PotW.

Ghazzy attacks back, WS6 to WS10, 7 attacks on the charge (adamantium skull, Ghaz gets an extra attack on the charge), hits on 4+. 3.5 hits.

Str10 (Ghaz) vs. T6, wounds on 2+, so 5/6 of them wound, that's 2.91 wounds.

4++ save, that's 2/3 taken, that's 1.45 wounds in the end.

Next assault phase, Ghazzy still has PotW, but not the extra 2 attacks, so 2.5 hit, 2.01 wound, half are saved, that's 1 wound that Ghazzy does to the GD, GD still only does .44

Oh, and is the GD Fearless? If so, he's been taking Fearless wounds.

Any subsequent turns, Ghazzy does 1 wound, GD does (without Ghazzy's 2++,) 1.7. So by the end of it, Ghazzy would win, but only by a slim margin, having taken 3 of his 4 wounds (unless they're taking Fearless wounds, which I don't even know how that would work out.)

On the turn the GD charged, W/out PotW active (for whatever reason,) GD would do 4.6 hits, Str7 vs T5 = 2+ to wound, so 3.8 wounds, 5++ save, so 1/3 saved, 2.5 wounds done.

If Ghazzy had PotW, only .63 wounds done to him.

All in all, fairly even. A good Ork player probably wouldn't assault a GD without the Waaagh!!, so would probably win with the 2++. If the GD assaulted, it'd probably win. Of course, that's keeping retinues with things like Waaagh!! banners out of it...

You got the Str wrong on the first part of your mathhammer, bringing the GD wounds against PotW Ghazzy to about .5

Just sayin'

A'key, then. Was going off random's 6 attacks when assaulting GD up there.

im2randomghgh wrote: Except against T7 MC...

Good god im2randomghgh... Can you suck at mathhammer any harder? T7 Does Nothing Against S10. S10 wounds even C'tan and wraithlords on 2s. Since there is no T9+ creatures in a normal game of 40k, ghaz will always wound on 2s. You don't know the assault rules, charts, or anything involving the units in question, yet you feel the need to contribute your lack of knowledge? Why do you do this? Trolling?

BeRzErKeR wrote:A painboy definitely gives attached ICs FNP. Why wouldn't a Waagh! Banner give them +1 WS?

Negative to both.

Independent characters do not benefit from the rules of the unit that they join.

Dashofpepper wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:A painboy definitely gives attached ICs FNP. Why wouldn't a Waagh! Banner give them +1 WS?

Negative to both.

Independent characters do not benefit from the rules of the unit that they join.

I haven't seen this arguement in awhile, its been in YMTC quite a few times IIRC. There is a rather compelling counter argument allowing the FNP, but honestly, who cares if the warboss gets it? In shooting his purpose is to soak S8-9 hits (so you don't instant gib nobs) and ghaz can even soak S10 due to his hard head. In CC, characters can be singled out, but in most cases anyone directing attacks at the warboss is probably packing a weapon that ignnores armor anyways.

The WS can sometimes matter, but if you are running your WB and nobs into a unit that has WS higher than you, and it really matters, you probably should learn the shoot the choppy ones, and chop the shooty ones.

Wow, the amount of errors in your example could kill Ghazzy during his Waagh!

Jidmah wrote:Wow, the amount of errors in your example could kill Ghazzy during his Waagh!

Quoted for Truth !

Tyrgon; killed my Ghaz no problem and had 2W left!

With a big gun. Or four. That's what i usually do, 4 hammerhead solid shots, S10 AP1. He won't last 3 turns... Hopefully...

At every store I have played they ruled that IC's in the nob squad get both fnp and the +1 ws. I see you're point dash but that's just how it's played in the NE so i just have to live with it.

What if I gave someone with Terminator armour a vortex grenade and someone else a legion relic, threw the grenade at him then charged at him with legion relic guy (when the vortex moves of course)

Sledgio wrote:With a big gun. Or four. That's what i usually do, 4 hammerhead solid shots, S10 AP1. He won't last 3 turns... Hopefully...

Broadsides would be better for that, considering they have TL, can get TA for +1 BS, and you can field more. Plus they're cheaper (points wise).

rubicant99 wrote:Tyrgon; killed my Ghaz no problem and had 2W left!

best way to kill a trygon for orks (i play nids alot) is to throw 30 boys at it and a nob with a pk when it is within 12 inches move towards it, shoot and then assault, usually you bog down a whole turn in the assault, but the boys have always come out on top, i've even taken oue down with 11 boys and a nob (boys had cybork thank god for mad doc)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sledgio wrote:With a big gun. Or four. That's what i usually do, 4 hammerhead solid shots, S10 AP1. He won't last 3 turns... Hopefully...

Broadsides would be better for that, considering they have TL, can get TA for +1 BS, and you can field more. Plus they're cheaper (points wise).

Finally you said something I agree with. Broadsides would be better for downing Ghaz. Not to mention they would most likely be the ones smoking his transport as well. Problem is, if I were playing against Tau, in this situation, those Broadsides would have some deffkoptas in their faces asap. Or Lootas blasting away

bagtagger wrote:At every store I have played they ruled that IC's in the nob squad get both fnp and the +1 ws. I see you're point dash but that's just how it's played in the NE so i just have to live with it.

Indeed, and once upon a time I played it like that as well - until I learned that it wasn't correct. If you just play with your friends, and they don't care...that's fine. But if you intend to ever participate in organized 40k events, you won't be doing yourself any favors by using made up rules that won't fly there.

@notabot: Every time I see this come up in YMTC, its settled quite firmly with plenty of explanation from the rules. There is a compelling argument to why "Ambush" is not a unit special rule, so may be used on ICs though.

Sorry if I'm being dumb but what is the consensus; does the IC gain FNP and +1 WS or not?

rubicant99 wrote:Sorry if I'm being dumb but what is the consensus; does the IC gain FNP and +1 WS or not?

You may want to consult YMDC - do a search for any of the threads that have come up about it. But no....the main rulebook is quite explicitly clear that the ICs do *not* benefit from unit FNP and +WS - or anything else.

Dashofpepper wrote:

bagtagger wrote:At every store I have played they ruled that IC's in the nob squad get both fnp and the +1 ws. I see you're point dash but that's just how it's played in the NE so i just have to live with it.

Indeed, and once upon a time I played it like that as well - until I learned that it wasn't correct. If you just play with your friends, and they don't care...that's fine. But if you intend to ever participate in organized 40k events, you won't be doing yourself any favors by using made up rules that won't fly there.

@notabot: Every time I see this come up in YMTC, its settled quite firmly with plenty of explanation from the rules. There is a compelling argument to why "Ambush" is not a unit special rule, so may be used on ICs though.

^this yep no fnp on ic or warbanner

but i have lots of fun ambushign in special characters, usually mad doc, but i one day might ambush in ghaz but so far i've veiwed that as a little too cheap

Dashofpepper wrote:

bagtagger wrote:At every store I have played they ruled that IC's in the nob squad get both fnp and the +1 ws. I see you're point dash but that's just how it's played in the NE so i just have to live with it.

@notabot: Every time I see this come up in YMTC, its settled quite firmly with plenty of explanation from the rules. There is a compelling argument to why "Ambush" is not a unit special rule, so may be used on ICs though.

I've done a lot of searching and even started my own threads on this exact rule that you participated in and all I've ever seen is that yes warbosses get FnP from joining nob squads. If you could point me to a thread where your opinion is actually in the majority I'd really like to read all the reasoning.

G00fySmiley wrote:

but i have lots of fun ambushing in special characters, usually mad doc, but i one day might ambush in ghaz but so far i've veiwed that as a little too cheap

What's funny is that if you go by what you consider to be the correct ruling for doc's tools then your unit of kommandos doesn't benefit from the mad doc giving them FnP because he has the exact same rules as the painboy. Not many people make that connection though.

On topic:
Very few things can realistically beat Ghazz in close combat either alone or when he's in a large group of boyz/burnas. If that is the method you have for defeating him however (say if you're playing as nids) then your best shot is for combined charges or countercharges into his unit and ultimately force a leadership check at ld 2-4 as even with a re-roll the odds are not in his favor of success. You really do have to force the check though if you want to accomplish your goal (and get the charge off on the orks as the str 3 for them off the charge really hurts). Whatever the case if you do end up assaulting ghaz+co the 2++ had better be gone.

A way to kill Ghazzy? Unleash the C'tan!

"What's funny is that if you go by what you consider to be the correct ruling for doc's tools then your unit of kommandos doesn't benefit from the mad doc giving them FnP because he has the exact same rules as the painboy. Not many people make that connection though."



i never even said he gave fnp the point of mad doc is to give everybody on the board cybork bodies ie 15 komandoes with cybork bodies and snickrot and having the doc's pk helps alot too plus with 17 total in the mob thats a good chance for multiassault if prepped right, snickrot and most komandoes at one thing, mad doc at the other

I suspect that unless I hit im2randomghgh with a flaming weapon he well ignore that wound on a 4+...

OP: Ghaz is tough... like all tough units find ways of making them less useful, instead of killing them. Would you try to kill 10 terminators with thunder hammers, storm shields... no, you would try to limit their mobility by tank shocking them away from the fight, walk around a vehicle or assault the vehicle and only hit on :6:... Now ghazghkull has been reduced to taking out a single empty trukk/rhino a turn instead of a unit a turn.

When I am playing with orks against orks, I use trukks or buggies to accomplish this. If I was space marines, I would use a rhino, speeder or razorback (It is doing more by being a screen then it would do by shooting). Tau would do this with piranhas... etc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Read an earlier post... he just plays Tau and usually equates "My unit is within assault range and they assault it" to "My unit dies"... That and the Tau codex does not have a single model above WS 5...

The best way to kill Mr. Ghaz-pain-in-the-face....


Step 1. Bring snipers (Vindicare Temple Assassins).

Step 2. Load the chamber with Turbo-Pen round or Hellfire

Step 3. Pick him out of the unit (sniper rule)

Step 4. Watch the red/green mist that once was his brains get blown away in the wind.

Step 5. Victory dance.

4 wounds... He cannot be in a vehicle or in an assault... That would require 2 rounds of shooting and he would still get a 5++ save if it was not during his Waaagh!

I am way late to this thread, but Thraka has Adamantium Skull which makes him immune to Instant Death.

Kurce wrote:

Spoiler:

They neither ignore his armor nor cause instant death.

I am way late to this thread, but Thraka has Adamantium Skull which makes him immune to Instant Death.

samrtk wrote:A way to kill Ghazzy? Unleash the C'tan!

Yeah, most MC can beat Ghazzy, but other than that, fight from a distance, or in overwhelming quantities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kurce wrote:

Spoiler:

They neither ignore his armor nor cause instant death.

I am way late to this thread, but Thraka has Adamantium Skull which makes him immune to Instant Death.

Spoiler:

Something tells me that AP1 actually does ignore his armour.

On the armour thing, it DOES ignore his armour, but with his PotW, he's going to activate it and get 2++ when you assault.

A way to kill Ghazzy? Unleash the C'tan!

Yeah, most MC can beat Ghazzy, but other than that, fight from a distance, or in overwhelming quantities.

Where do you get these ideas? MOST MC can beat Ghaz???? I have to say, Ive yet to throw Ghaz at a MC and walk away sad and beaten


*dammit quote glitch lol*

KingCracker wrote:

A way to kill Ghazzy? Unleash the C'tan!

Yeah, most MC can beat Ghazzy, but other than that, fight from a distance, or in overwhelming quantities.

Where do you get these ideas? MOST MC can beat Ghaz???? I have to say, Ive yet to throw Ghaz at a MC and walk away sad and beaten


*dammit quote glitch lol*

Maybe because he walks around with 30 Nobz?

Math-hammertime!

im2randomghgh wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

A way to kill Ghazzy? Unleash the C'tan!

Yeah, most MC can beat Ghazzy, but other than that, fight from a distance, or in overwhelming quantities.

Where do you get these ideas? MOST MC can beat Ghaz???? I have to say, Ive yet to throw Ghaz at a MC and walk away sad and beaten


*dammit quote glitch lol*

Maybe because he walks around with 30 Nobz?

You can't even take a unit of 30 nobz. Where do you even come up with this crap?
Against anything short of nightbringer, ghaz IMHO (and most likely mathhammer) should win. Even against nightbringer its pretty close.

What I does ghaz fight at, is it normal due to PK? (ie 1)

If so, the either of the star gods should do some serious hurting, being S9 and 10, ignoring armour and invul, 5/6 attacks etc

Wow, this topic has had more replies than I ever thought it would, thank you all, Ghazghkull Thraka is going down! (btw anymore suggestions would still be useful because i am always looking to improve my game)

mulkers wrote:What I does ghaz fight at, is it normal due to PK? (ie 1)

If so, the either of the star gods should do some serious hurting, being S9 and 10, ignoring armour and invul, 5/6 attacks etc

Ghaz goes last, so will get badly hurt by either. Nightbringer and him have same WS, so nightbringer will most of the time come out on top, but usually in the second round of combat. If he doesn't kill him on round 2, ghaz should win.

The deceiver has 1 less attack and lower WS, this pretty much spells his doom vs ghaz, if he chose to fight (deciever can just hop out and avoid fighting).