Hey guys
After playing Dawn of war retribution a particular scene really made me question the Eldar's self deceptive elitism, When they see a mortally wounded space marine commander and they casually remark "From his livery he looks like one of there leaders, still he is just one of the monkeys". Do the Eldar not realize how superior space marines are both physically, mentally and spiritually to a normal human and even the Eldar in some respects ?. I was under the impression that the Eldar had a certain level of fear and respect for Space marines, seeing them as something akin to the children of the emperor ?. Or are they literally just that blindly ignorant that they see 8 foot tall gene forged warriors wearing power armor , that can chew through metal for sustenance, spit acid, recover from seemingly mortal wounds instantly, relive the memories of the dead by eating there flesh, go without sleep for weeks on end, have perfect recall and in some cases incredible psychic potential as the same as normal humans ?. I dont think its apt to even call a space marine a human I thought they'd come with some kind of cryptic colloquial term like the scions of the emperor.
Anyways fluff and opinions appreciated as always .
C-3
They don't look at the brute strength of an Ork warboss and have more respect for it. Why should it matter for the brute strength of a gene enhanced human?
At the end of the day, its still a human, with the perspective, wisdom, and style of thinking thereof, without any new culture or mental complexity.
The Eldar have always looked down upon the Marines even though they are enhanced. Eldar never seem to anyone in high regard except for themselves. I would have to say they think of Space Marines as below them, but above some other races if anything.
Simple as that. They may be smarter than the average human, but to an Eldar, they are as smart as an amoeba.
Hmm i think thats over simplifying it a little, I always felt that yes the Eldar do vew Humanity as pawns and that a million humans aren't worth the life of a single Eldar but they do see humanity as an important buffer to be used against other threats. I believe they also truely realise how dangerous humanity is both in its ignorance and its capacity for violence and retribution, They do think humans to be greedy, and barbaric, however any eldar who questions the danger humanity, let alone a space marine represents is a deluded fool. If it werent for the fact that there are other more serious threats, and that the eldar keep to deep space in their craftworlds, the IoM would have had them exterminated long ago. I dont think the Eldar question the itelligence of space marines but they may well question their wisdom, its important not to get knowledge and inteligence mixed up.
Eldar are rightly aware of their martial prowess, see path of the warrior for details therein. However humanity as a whole, impressive genetic manipulation or not, still register very low on an eldar's scale of quality. For a race that is eons older than humanity, let alone the last 10 millennia under the emperor, our sense of modernity and achievement pales when you consider what they had achieved. This, tempered with the fact they lost all of it because of their own pride and lack of self control would leave them even less likely to acknowledge any lacking of their own versus that of any of the younger races.
Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
I have a feeling the whole, 'I think that star should be destroyed' "KA-BOOM" was what you called a figure of speech.
If any race had that kind of power, the Necrontyr and the Old Ones would have trashed the galaxy a long time ago.
The eldar don't respect the human race at all. They recognize that Space Marines are stronger and better than the average human, but they still think of them as inferior anyways.
Red Comet wrote:The Eldar have always looked down upon the Marines even though they are enhanced. Eldar never seem to anyone in high regard except for themselves.
This IMHO is wrong, they have high regard for many races, especially tau as they fight for a greater good and have not been corrupted by chaos at all. They even respect orks to an extent; in the ork codex their is this quote by Uthan, an Eldar Philosopher:
"The orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won.They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is stong, and despise it as crude."
Surely this shows that the eldar don;t even hold themselves in high regard as they realise they have made grave mistakes that have led to them failing, they will admit that it was they who inadvertantly created slaanesh and they are a dieing race.
Although the Eldar don't see other races as perfect and better than the eldar, they certainly don't hold only themselves in high regard, they hold no one in high regard instead realising the mistakes that all have made, especially including themselves. Hpwever, it is true that the eldar see a lot of mistakes in the imperium, probably more than they see in themsleves so you're right when you say that the eldar look down on marines as the eldar see the imperium as the galaxy's new chance, but they have made all the same mistakes as the eldar made before them and many worse mistakes such as: Horus Heresy, now they all support one god, who would be surprised if they accidentally created another chaos god, they're extremely corruptible, half of the imperium turned to chaos just like many eldar turned to dark eldar and the imperium won't admit when they made a mistake and there is a lot more infighting and politics which eldar didn't have. So, eldar probably see the human race on par with the necrons and tyranids.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
Fair enough. But give me the name of one Eldar that has held this kind of psychic power during the past 10 000 years. The Eldars are dying. They are surviving only because they hide in the most remote planets of the galaxy or live in errant craftworlds.
Actually, if it was not for the IoM, the eldars would have all been crushed ages ago. But, fortunately for the eldars, their so-called bravery and honor doesn't prevent them from using the IoM as a buffer against chaos and aggressive xenos.
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tantan628 wrote:
This IMHO is wrong, they have high regard for many races, especially tau as they fight for a greater good and have not been corrupted by chaos at all. They even respect orks to an extent; in the ork codex their is this quote by Uthan, an Eldar Philosopher:
"The orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won.They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is stong, and despise it as crude."
This is a good point, but Ulthan was an eccentric, a philosopher. I don't think his sayings reflect the opinions of the majority of the eldars.
tantan628 wrote:
in the ork codex their is this quote by Uthan, an Eldar Philosopher:
I believe that he was labelled "the Perverse". He certainly does not seem to represent the majority of the Eldar species. Eldar are characteristically arrogant and disparaging of other species', and in most of the background I've seen they seem to think themselves superior. Especially Biel-tan, if I recall correctly.
Space Marine may be able to take many Eldar 1 on 1 but it's due to brute strength, savagery, and endurance. Same reason many Orks can take Eldar 1 on 1 too, and the Eldar certainly don't view the Orks as anything more than savages.
Reanimator wrote:Eldar are rightly aware of their martial prowess, see path of the warrior for details therein. However humanity as a whole, impressive genetic manipulation or not, still register very low on an eldar's scale of quality. For a race that is eons older than humanity, let alone the last 10 millennia under the emperor, our sense of modernity and achievement pales when you consider what they had achieved. This, tempered with the fact they lost all of it because of their own pride and lack of self control would leave them even less likely to acknowledge any lacking of their own versus that of any of the younger races.
I thought they'd at least on some level respect the martial prowess and dedication space marines have to there god, especially because of the path of the warrior thing. I suppose an even more important question would be that whilst admittedly they dont see the emperor as a warp god but do they at least respect his power / vision or do they just see him as king of the monkeys ?.
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Harriticus wrote:Space Marine may be able to take many Eldar 1 on 1 but it's due to brute strength, savagery, and endurance. Same reason many Orks can take Eldar 1 on 1 too, and the Eldar certainly don't view the Orks as anything more than savages.
A space marine isnt a savage they possess genius levels of intellect and have split second reaction times, and are all supreme battle tacticians in there own right able to take out massive armies through superior tactics. A chapter as powerful as they are collectively couldnt defeat a planets worth of insurgents through simple brutality, they dont have the same mindset or numbers of orks.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
I have a feeling the whole, 'I think that star should be destroyed' "KA-BOOM" was what you called a figure of speech.
If any race had that kind of power, the Necrontyr and the Old Ones would have trashed the galaxy a long time ago.
Nope, it wasn't a figure of speech. They really had that kind of power.
On the back of the Eldar codex it states " The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, and yet you still dare oppose our will"
Farseer Mirehn Biellann said that.
Also from the Dark Eldar codex it states this when talking about the kabal of the dying sun:
"The kabal's wild claims that they retain the ability to extinguish stars are infamous, though their rivals have never quite managed to explain the deterioration of the sun Echillos during the Aleuthan Persecution."
Sounds to me like it's more than a figure of speech. Sounds more like they actually did have that power.
Also, in codex Eldar it states this on page 3:
"These are the Eldar, a race that is all but extinct, the last remnants of a people whose mere dreams once overturned worlds and quenched suns"
Yes but they still don't think in the same way eldar do, SM may be smarter than normal humans but they still think on a human level.
Eldar think on many more levels than any human (aside from maybe the emperor). The way they experience the world around them is alien to us, they are far more aware than we are. Their souls are very powerful whereas the SMs have human souls.
I think they respected the emperor but didn't expect him to suceed due to the fact that he was trying to help a species they saw as flawed.
It's the same way humans view animals as inferior- They may be as effective as us but we experience the world in much more detail and while all animals think humans do it on a much deeper level. Eldar view us in the same way.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:The smartest, strongest and most intelligent ant remains, painful in it's limitations, just an ant.
Also, Ulthan was called 'the perverse' by his peers...
Wasnt that a quote from watchmen "The worlds smartest man poses as much of a threat to me as the worlds smartest ant"
Hmm, possible I might have channelled it, but I was actually thinking of babylon 5 and G'kar describing the First Ones to that cute Japanese lass that Sinclair was boffing.
A space marine isnt a savage they possess genius levels of intellect and have split second reaction times, and are all supreme battle tacticians in there own right able to take out massive armies through superior tactics. A chapter as powerful as they are collectively couldnt defeat a planets worth of insurgents through simple brutality, they dont have the same mindset or numbers of orks.
It's savage compared to the Eldar intellect.
That being said there is a certain savagery to the Space Marines. Yes they're smarter then the average humans and are hardly orks, but they live for battle and without war they wouldn't know what to do with themselves. I maintain that if the Imperium were finally at peace, we'd have a large-scale Astartes revolt in no time.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
Fair enough. But give me the name of one Eldar that has held this kind of psychic power during the past 10 000 years. The Eldars are dying. They are surviving only because they hide in the most remote planets of the galaxy or live in errant craftworlds.
Actually, if it was not for the IoM, the eldars would have all been crushed ages ago. But, fortunately for the eldars, their so-called bravery and honor doesn't prevent them from using the IoM as a buffer against chaos and aggressive xenos.
There is no proof that all of the Eldar would have been crushed ages ago if it were not for the Imperium. I believe what you are referring to is the Interrogation of captured Eldar Ranger Prisoner 28264 Prisoner Awaiting Termination in the part about Eldrad in the 3rd edition Eldar Codex.
It says that ten thousand Eldar lives would have been lost if they had not directed Ghazkhull to Armageddon. Ten thousand Eldar is hardly the entire race.
Also, what the Eldar think of every race is also stated in that interrogation. Basically, they think of them as tools, eventually to be exterminated.
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tantan628 wrote:
This IMHO is wrong, they have high regard for many races, especially tau as they fight for a greater good and have not been corrupted by chaos at all. They even respect orks to an extent; in the ork codex their is this quote by Uthan, an Eldar Philosopher:
"The orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won.They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is stong, and despise it as crude."
This is a good point, but Ulthan was an eccentric, a philosopher. I don't think his sayings reflect the opinions of the majority of the eldars.
A space marine isnt a savage they possess genius levels of intellect and have split second reaction times, and are all supreme battle tacticians in there own right able to take out massive armies through superior tactics. A chapter as powerful as they are collectively couldnt defeat a planets worth of insurgents through simple brutality, they dont have the same mindset or numbers of orks.
It's savage compared to the Eldar intellect.
That being said there is a certain savagery to the Space Marines. Yes they're smarter then the average humans and are hardly orks, but they live for battle and without war they wouldn't know what to do with themselves. I maintain that if the Imperium were finally at peace, we'd have a large-scale Astartes revolt in no time.
Reminds me of the Garro audiobooks were it mentions how the astartes fight for the day that they can lay down there weapons and reveal in the work of there great forbearer's, that being said I imagine the astartes individual would take positions of political and social power in society perhaps as planetary governors or head of sectors ?. Even if there was peace theyd still be enemies that would need to be pacified i.e orks who might conceivably be contained but never truly wiped out. I can imagine if peace did finally come about, humanity would focus its efforts on genetic engineering to attempt to make the entire human race as biologically advanced as the astarte's wasnt that one of the emperors goals ?.
Eldar probably view them as being intellectually the same as humans, but should either be feared or respected because their they are much more dangerous when angered.
the Eldar view them as little better then Humans, but they still fear the Angels of Death for their power.
only the Astartes can match the Eldar in martial prowess. this is aided by their incredible durability compared to the Eldar.
the Eldar do view Space Marines as more useful pawns. a Farseer could approach a Space Marine chapter and at have his message heard. Space Marines will listin to the Eldar, even if they don't trust them, only a fool would ignore the word of a Farseer. in contrast, a Eldar wouldn't stand a chance of talking to IG, unless an Inquisitor is present.
the Imperium's higher ups are willing to listin to the Eldar, but the lower forces won't listin. the Eldar know this.
Nope, it wasn't a figure of speech. They really had that kind of power.
On the back of the Eldar codex it states " The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, and yet you still dare oppose our will"
Farseer Mirehn Biellann said that.
That does sound like hyperbole to me. Trash talk, that sort of thing. I mean, the Eldar may well have had the technology to do such things, and as such could order a star to be destroyed, but I don't think it was actually through psychic might or anything. The Eldar Codex quote, that I think is likely to be a figure of speech.
Eldar are afraid of Human Inquisition. As we can see that in their response from hearing the news about Exterminatus.
Some of them respect the Space Marines ( like Ulthwe and Biel-Tan ). Other's think of them like monkeys ( big mistake ).
"The Astartes? Not but overgrown apes sporting crude weapons and armor. They lack the grace and wisdom of the Eldar. To us, they are deformed monsters, creatures formed in mon'keigh labs in an effort to overcome the frailties of Man. A noble, but ultimately futile pursuit. Their armor makes them slow, easy prey for the Banshee and the Scorpion. Their brutality makes them predictable, simple for the Seer to snip their threads with a thought. Their vehicles are cumbersome, no match for a Brightlance or Starcannon. Who are they to such as we? We have fought Chaos before their hopeless race crawled out of the sea."
The Eldar do not see mankind as monkeys (I don't think they even have a concept for what these creatures are, or what sort of insult it might be to a human to compare the two species), they call mankind (and many other races) Mon-Keigh, which means Must-Be-Killed. That about sums up what they feel towards humans.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
I have a feeling the whole, 'I think that star should be destroyed' "KA-BOOM" was what you called a figure of speech.
If any race had that kind of power, the Necrontyr and the Old Ones would have trashed the galaxy a long time ago.
Nope, it wasn't a figure of speech. They really had that kind of power.
On the back of the Eldar codex it states " The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, and yet you still dare oppose our will"
Farseer Mirehn Biellann said that.
Also from the Dark Eldar codex it states this when talking about the kabal of the dying sun:
"The kabal's wild claims that they retain the ability to extinguish stars are infamous, though their rivals have never quite managed to explain the deterioration of the sun Echillos during the Aleuthan Persecution."
Sounds to me like it's more than a figure of speech. Sounds more like they actually did have that power.
Also, in codex Eldar it states this on page 3:
"These are the Eldar, a race that is all but extinct, the last remnants of a people whose mere dreams once overturned worlds and quenched suns"
Sure. I'm not disputing they had the power to do it.
I'm disputing that it takes a 'thought'.
Heck, even Abbadon wheeled a Planet Killer around, and he's considerably less sophisticated than the Eldar. I've got no doubt the Eldar used to have Wraithbone Death Stars or whatever.
However, to reiterate, I doubt it was a case of thinking to oneself, 'I dislike that star' and watching it blow up. Some sort of technical machinery would have been required, and it would have had to be sufficiently complex and rare enough to not be a regular thing, because
a) if it was that easy, they'd be mass producing the things that blow stars today, and
b) if it was that easy, the Old Ones and C'Tan would have wrecked the universe a long time ago.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
I have a feeling the whole, 'I think that star should be destroyed' "KA-BOOM" was what you called a figure of speech.
If any race had that kind of power, the Necrontyr and the Old Ones would have trashed the galaxy a long time ago.
Nope, it wasn't a figure of speech. They really had that kind of power.
On the back of the Eldar codex it states " The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, and yet you still dare oppose our will"
Farseer Mirehn Biellann said that.
Also from the Dark Eldar codex it states this when talking about the kabal of the dying sun:
"The kabal's wild claims that they retain the ability to extinguish stars are infamous, though their rivals have never quite managed to explain the deterioration of the sun Echillos during the Aleuthan Persecution."
Sounds to me like it's more than a figure of speech. Sounds more like they actually did have that power.
Also, in codex Eldar it states this on page 3:
"These are the Eldar, a race that is all but extinct, the last remnants of a people whose mere dreams once overturned worlds and quenched suns"
Sure. I'm not disputing they had the power to do it.
I'm disputing that it takes a 'thought'.
Heck, even Abbadon wheeled a Planet Killer around, and he's considerably less sophisticated than the Eldar. I've got no doubt the Eldar used to have Wraithbone Death Stars or whatever.
However, to reiterate, I doubt it was a case of thinking to oneself, 'I dislike that star' and watching it blow up. Some sort of technical machinery would have been required, and it would have had to be sufficiently complex and rare enough to not be a regular thing, because
a) if it was that easy, they'd be mass producing the things that blow stars today, and
b) if it was that easy, the Old Ones and C'Tan would have wrecked the universe a long time ago.
That's a bit different. IIRC, C'Tan in their unbound diffused natural state soak up the energy from stars over a period of time until they basically explode and burn out earlier than they would of done. I don't believe its an instantaneous process.
yeah, the Necrontyr actually found the C'tan because they were eating their sun. all the C'tan were feeding on 1 star(there used to be lots of C'tan) so they don't do it instantainously.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
I have a feeling the whole, 'I think that star should be destroyed' "KA-BOOM" was what you called a figure of speech.
If any race had that kind of power, the Necrontyr and the Old Ones would have trashed the galaxy a long time ago.
Nope, it wasn't a figure of speech. They really had that kind of power.
On the back of the Eldar codex it states " The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, and yet you still dare oppose our will"
Farseer Mirehn Biellann said that.
Also from the Dark Eldar codex it states this when talking about the kabal of the dying sun:
"The kabal's wild claims that they retain the ability to extinguish stars are infamous, though their rivals have never quite managed to explain the deterioration of the sun Echillos during the Aleuthan Persecution."
Sounds to me like it's more than a figure of speech. Sounds more like they actually did have that power.
Also, in codex Eldar it states this on page 3:
"These are the Eldar, a race that is all but extinct, the last remnants of a people whose mere dreams once overturned worlds and quenched suns"
Sure. I'm not disputing they had the power to do it.
I'm disputing that it takes a 'thought'.
Heck, even Abbadon wheeled a Planet Killer around, and he's considerably less sophisticated than the Eldar. I've got no doubt the Eldar used to have Wraithbone Death Stars or whatever.
However, to reiterate, I doubt it was a case of thinking to oneself, 'I dislike that star' and watching it blow up. Some sort of technical machinery would have been required, and it would have had to be sufficiently complex and rare enough to not be a regular thing, because
a) if it was that easy, they'd be mass producing the things that blow stars today, and
b) if it was that easy, the Old Ones and C'Tan would have wrecked the universe a long time ago.
The last line in my last post actually comes from the eldar book as an explanation of them, not a hyperbole sentence. They were that psychically powerful before the fall. However, you are probably right as all their tech is psychically based. I also wouldn't be surprised if any soul powerful enough to do that was immediately consumed by slaanesh on the day of his birth.
Mordoskul wrote:"The Astartes? Not but overgrown apes sporting crude weapons and armor. They lack the grace and wisdom of the Eldar. To us, they are deformed monsters, creatures formed in mon'keigh labs in an effort to overcome the frailties of Man. A noble, but ultimately futile pursuit. Their armor makes them slow, easy prey for the Banshee and the Scorpion. Their brutality makes them predictable, simple for the Seer to snip their threads with a thought. Their vehicles are cumbersome, no match for a Brightlance or Starcannon. Who are they to such as we? We have fought Chaos before their hopeless race crawled out of the sea."
How very in character Love the unforgotten realms DP, Im yet to meet anyone else who liked realms its a pity the show got cancelled :(
Brother Coa wrote:Eldar are afraid of Human Inquisition. As we can see that in their response from hearing the news about Exterminatus.
Some of them respect the Space Marines ( like Ulthwe and Biel-Tan ). Other's think of them like monkeys ( big mistake ).
Eldar are not afraid of the Human Inquisition any more than you are afraid of a moth in your closet. The news of Exterminatus does not strike fear into the heart of the Eldar the way you think it does. The act of Exterminatus is just another form of brutality from the humans that the Eldar find appalling. The idea that the humans would be ignorant enough to destroy a world just because they can't claim it as their own is what really gets the Eldar mad.
Why? Because humans have settled Maiden Worlds that the Eldar took thousands of years to terra form and now they have polluted them. When the Eldar come to claim them, the last thing they want is the Inquisition to try to Exterminate the world because then the Eldar would have to start over. And that takes a while as you can imagine.
And none of the Eldar respect the Space Marines. Nor any other human in the galaxy. Proof of this is here: " Some of you call us your allies. you are not allies, any more than a butcher's knife is his ally. You are tools, nothing more. To be used and expended to protect our race, that is your fate. Your kind think you are so magnificent. Yet even now, at the nadir of our power, we can manipulate you, turn you to our ends as easily as you might pull a trigger and fire a gun. Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart mon-keigh shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient! We will exterminate you. Every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood and it pleases him! You think us weak, but we will be your doom, children of earth!"
Interrogation of captured Eldar Ranger Prisoner no. 28264 Prisoner awaiting termination from Codex eldar 3rd edition.
And thats from Ulthwe...a craftworld you claim respects the Space Marines.
And here's a quote from the Biel-Tan Swordwind entry in Codex Eldar 4th edition page 16: "The warriors of Biel-Tan care not, for to them all other races are usurpers to be culled without mercy"
I think there are definitely a few select humans who have the respect of the Eldar; Czevak for example must have been held in pretty high regard to have been allowed into the Black Library, and Ravenor seemed to have worked together with the Eldar in the last book of the Eisenhorn trilogy. I'm sure there are individual marines they respect as well (outside of the crap Goto wrote), but on a large scale they see them as just bigger and stronger humans.
My aren't there a lot of SM fanboys in this thread, and some with alarmingly juvenile senses of humor at that..
The eldar know that the Space marines are tough, strong and so forth. They are not 'genius levels of intellect' by eldar standards necessarily though. By human standards they may be smarter, and certainly better at processing information, but genius isn't that hard to attain. A lot of people top the 170 or so IQ that rates as genius.
By eldar standards humans are xenophobic, crude and unsubtle lunatics using technology that the eldar outgrew eons ago. They are thought of in much the same way that you might think of the survivalist down the street who drives around your neighbourhood with a loaded uzi.
The last time humanity attacked an Eldar (plural: Eldar btw not eldars) Craftworld they lost a whole sector fleet doing it, with no lasting damage to the craftworld. The eldar may be fading, but they are far from helpless.
I find it unlikely that Space Marines even manage to rival the average hive ganger in intellect. They're deformed, acid drooling mutants whose idea of "brilliant tactics" is "Step 1) land a dozen marines near some enemies; step 2) stand in the open screaming and shooting at random objects; step 3) claim responsibility for the victory won by the hundred thousand guardsmen fighting in the actual battles".
Here is what stupid people in the Imperium have to say about the Eldar:
" Perfidious Eldar! These aliens had the stars in their grasp and now are left to sift the dust of their once fabulous realm. For all their intellect and mysticism they could not contain the beast within them, nor tame the wild monsters of the Shadow. Why should we pay them any heed? "
Grundwald, ordo xenos
Here's what smart people in the Imperium have to say about Eldar
"...Make no mistake, the Eldar still wield sufficient power to seriously contest the right and proper expansion of the Emperor's servants to the goal of utter dominance of the galaxy. It is only by concentrated will and faith in the Immortal Emperor that we shall overcome them.."
Inquisitor Czevak, Teachings on the Unholy
Here's what stupid Eldar have to say about Humans
"We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a human can understand."
Reqhiel of the Sons of Fuegan
Here's what smart Eldar have to say about Humans
Eldrad is the greatest among us....He knows your affairs better than you do. He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus and the strife which would engulf us, just as it engulfed the rest of the galaxy, but your arrogance deafened you to his words. Your stupidity almost destroyed the galaxy, yet you never knew how close the forces of light were to our ultimate defeat...
Interrogation of captured Eldar Ranger Prisoner no 28264 prisoner awaiting execution.
MandalorynOranj wrote:I think there are definitely a few select humans who have the respect of the Eldar; Czevak for example must have been held in pretty high regard to have been allowed into the Black Library, and Ravenor seemed to have worked together with the Eldar in the last book of the Eisenhorn trilogy. I'm sure there are individual marines they respect as well (outside of the crap Goto wrote), but on a large scale they see them as just bigger and stronger humans.
Yeah, but I think Cevak was only given information that the Eldar wanted to see spread amongst human elites to serve their own purposes. The same goes for Ravenor, you can bet his knowledge came from an exchange of some kind. They didn't just do it because he was cool with Yriel.
If anything, I think humans would usually elicit extra special disdain from Eldar because we fall into the uncanny valley.
Brother Coa wrote:Eldar are afraid of Human Inquisition. As we can see that in their response from hearing the news about Exterminatus.
Some of them respect the Space Marines ( like Ulthwe and Biel-Tan ). Other's think of them like monkeys ( big mistake ).
Eldar are not afraid of the Human Inquisition any more than you are afraid of a moth in your closet. The news of Exterminatus does not strike fear into the heart of the Eldar the way you think it does. The act of Exterminatus is just another form of brutality from the humans that the Eldar find appalling. The idea that the humans would be ignorant enough to destroy a world just because they can't claim it as their own is what really gets the Eldar mad.
Why? Because humans have settled Maiden Worlds that the Eldar took thousands of years to terra form and now they have polluted them. When the Eldar come to claim them, the last thing they want is the Inquisition to try to Exterminate the world because then the Eldar would have to start over. And that takes a while as you can imagine.
6:24 - he looks a bit scared to me. I would be to if world I was standing is scheduled to be cleanse of all life.
And none of the Eldar respect the Space Marines. Nor any other human in the galaxy. Proof of this is here: " Some of you call us your allies. you are not allies, any more than a butcher's knife is his ally. You are tools, nothing more. To be used and expended to protect our race, that is your fate. Your kind think you are so magnificent. Yet even now, at the nadir of our power, we can manipulate you, turn you to our ends as easily as you might pull a trigger and fire a gun. Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart mon-keigh shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient! We will exterminate you. Every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood and it pleases him! You think us weak, but we will be your doom, children of earth!"
Interrogation of captured Eldar Ranger Prisoner no. 28264 Prisoner awaiting termination from Codex eldar 3rd edition.
And thats from Ulthwe...a craftworld you claim respects the Space Marines.
And here's a quote from the Biel-Tan Swordwind entry in Codex Eldar 4th edition page 16: "The warriors of Biel-Tan care not, for to them all other races are usurpers to be culled without mercy"
And Eldar are the most idiotic race in 40k. Instead of Helping Humans in stoping Chaos and retreving their maden worlds - they are set up to destroy them?
They do realize that right now Humanity is the only thing standing before Chaos and the galaxy?
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I find it unlikely that Space Marines even manage to rival the average hive ganger in intellect. They're deformed, acid drooling mutants whose idea of "brilliant tactics" is "Step 1) land a dozen marines near some enemies; step 2) stand in the open screaming and shooting at random objects; step 3) claim responsibility for the victory won by the hundred thousand guardsmen fighting in the actual battles".
And then come the Ultramarines with their leader Calgar and tear down your statement that SM are nothing more than stupid pricks in power armor...
'And Eldar are the most idiotic race in 40k. Instead of Helping Humans in stoping Chaos and retreving their maden worlds - they are set up to destroy them?
They do realize that right now Humanity is the only thing standing before Chaos and the galaxy?'
Sez the humans How about the possibility that if the humans and their chaos-god feeding empire were gone, Chaos would be a sight less worrysome? Or perhaps the possibility that humans are wrong in their belief that the flashbulb is keeping them out?
'And then come the Ultramarines with their leader Calgar and tear down your statement that SM are nothing more than stupid pricks in power armor...'
Wasn't he outfoxed by 'dead' hormagaunts (despite the fact they were still breathing, generating heat etc..) ? It could have been another 'stupid prick in power armor...' as you put it, but i think it was Calgar. I don't have the nid codex to hand to check.
He is smarter than the average bear, but the average bear ain't so smart The Ultras, by and large, haven't impressed me with their stunning grasp of consequences and tactical planning. Calgar's plans have the benefit of plot armour to protect them.
I would put marines in general as being of average intelligence (most are recruited from world that would make Conan look intellectual) with occasionally smarter individuals.
Xenophobia is to 40k what air is to breathing. The entire setting must be Grimdark. So, how better to display this than having beings which should get along, if for nothing else to remove greater threats, fighting and bickering over nothing more than who has pointy ears and who doesn't.
Firstly, it should be stressed that the harlequins, not ulthwe let czevak in, and they're a whole different breed of eldar to the craftworld guys. I'm pretty sure no-one knows what the harlies are thinking at a given moment.
Second, Brother Coa, if you are going to respond in equal terms to a simplistic argument or inflammatory statement, you can guarantee you'll get both barrels back. Its not going to produce the results you want in this discussion even if it is satisfying to be so vehemently defensive. The eldar are well known for collaborating with humans to stop chaos, especially ulthwe, but that is not to say this amounts to respect.
It seems that most of the canon statements from codexes lean towards the eldar simply viewing all humans, astartes or not, as something to be used, not necessarily respected. In terms of martial effectiveness, respect is not always the same as being wary. For example, I might not respect a 50 ton truck, but if its driving at me at speed, I'd be foolish to not understand what will happen if I don't get out of the way. Whilst there are some given examples of the eldar viewing a particular character with something less than disdain, its by no means a species wide perspective. But, as rightly "pointed" out, the 40k universe wouldn't have nearly as many reasons for a good scrap if we all got along.
Brother Coa wrote:Eldar are afraid of Human Inquisition. As we can see that in their response from hearing the news about Exterminatus.
Some of them respect the Space Marines ( like Ulthwe and Biel-Tan ). Other's think of them like monkeys ( big mistake ).
Eldar are not afraid of the Human Inquisition any more than you are afraid of a moth in your closet. The news of Exterminatus does not strike fear into the heart of the Eldar the way you think it does. The act of Exterminatus is just another form of brutality from the humans that the Eldar find appalling. The idea that the humans would be ignorant enough to destroy a world just because they can't claim it as their own is what really gets the Eldar mad.
Why? Because humans have settled Maiden Worlds that the Eldar took thousands of years to terra form and now they have polluted them. When the Eldar come to claim them, the last thing they want is the Inquisition to try to Exterminate the world because then the Eldar would have to start over. And that takes a while as you can imagine.
And none of the Eldar respect the Space Marines. Nor any other human in the galaxy. Proof of this is here: " Some of you call us your allies. you are not allies, any more than a butcher's knife is his ally. You are tools, nothing more. To be used and expended to protect our race, that is your fate. Your kind think you are so magnificent. Yet even now, at the nadir of our power, we can manipulate you, turn you to our ends as easily as you might pull a trigger and fire a gun. Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart mon-keigh shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient! We will exterminate you. Every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood and it pleases him! You think us weak, but we will be your doom, children of earth!"
Interrogation of captured Eldar Ranger Prisoner no. 28264 Prisoner awaiting termination from Codex eldar 3rd edition.
And thats from Ulthwe...a craftworld you claim respects the Space Marines.
And here's a quote from the Biel-Tan Swordwind entry in Codex Eldar 4th edition page 16: "The warriors of Biel-Tan care not, for to them all other races are usurpers to be culled without mercy"
Thats from a captured prisoner of war whos waiting to be executed I would imagine his anger and frustration cant be representative of the entire eldar races views on mankind not to mention thats from the 3rd edition a lot can be retconned here and there.
correction: the harliquins let the Ordo Malleus into the BL. Harlies are unaligned with any Eldar faction and probably see clearer then the others so they would work with the Inquisition.
Ascalam wrote:My aren't there a lot of SM fanboys in this thread, and some with alarmingly juvenile senses of humor at that..
The eldar know that the Space marines are tough, strong and so forth. They are not 'genius levels of intellect' by eldar standards necessarily though. By human standards they may be smarter, and certainly better at processing information, but genius isn't that hard to attain. A lot of people top the 170 or so IQ that rates as genius.
By eldar standards humans are xenophobic, crude and unsubtle lunatics using technology that the eldar outgrew eons ago. They are thought of in much the same way that you might think of the survivalist down the street who drives around your neighbourhood with a loaded uzi.
The last time humanity attacked an Eldar (plural: Eldar btw not eldars) Craftworld they lost a whole sector fleet doing it, with no lasting damage to the craftworld. The eldar may be fading, but they are far from helpless.
*edit for spelling/clarity*
Going by average IQ today the united kingdom being a prosperous first world country has an average iq of 100 around the 6-8th highest average the higest average being 107 , and any individual possessing an IQ of 120 or higher accounts for only 2% of the population im wording it badly but basically only 2% of the uk's population has an IQ of 120 or higher. So I dont know how you can say a lot of people top the 170 genius threshhold also the genius threshold is 140 not 170 ... .
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I find it unlikely that Space Marines even manage to rival the average hive ganger in intellect. They're deformed, acid drooling mutants whose idea of "brilliant tactics" is "Step 1) land a dozen marines near some enemies; step 2) stand in the open screaming and shooting at random objects; step 3) claim responsibility for the victory won by the hundred thousand guardsmen fighting in the actual battles".
Have you read any space marine fluff ? like seriously ...
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Reanimator wrote:
It seems that most of the canon statements from codexes lean towards the eldar simply viewing all humans, astartes or not, as something to be used, not necessarily respected. In terms of martial effectiveness, respect is not always the same as being wary. For example, I might not respect a 50 ton truck, but if its driving at me at speed, I'd be foolish to not understand what will happen if I don't get out of the way. Whilst there are some given examples of the eldar viewing a particular character with something less than disdain, its by no means a species wide perspective. But, as rightly "pointed" out, the 40k universe wouldn't have nearly as many reasons for a good scrap if we all got along.
And I suppose creating a group of psychotic pseudo-religious killing fanatics, arming them with the best weapons you can create, and watching half of them rebel against you and run off to play with Slaanesh and the gang hanging out in the warp is helping to defeat chaos?
If it weren't for the Eldar interfering with Abaddon in his 13th Black Crusade by using the Predictions of Eldrad, and Eldrad sacrificing himself to stop Abaddon from being able to use a Blackstone Fortress against Cadia, and also the Phoenix Lord Maugan Ra leading forces of the Eldar in key battles, the Imperium would be no more.
Abaddon would have destroyed all of Cadia, opening the way for the largest Chaos invasion ever seen. The Imperium in it's current state could not have stopped that alone.
The Imperium thinks it is Cadia that watches over the Eye of Terror keeping things from getting out, but it is not. The Eldar let them think that. It is actually the craftworld of Ulthwe that keeps a vigilant eye on the Eye of Terror, influencing events so Chaos does not sweep through the galaxy, and manipulating the Cadian sector into wasting it's troops to stop them.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
No, they never had that ability. They had the ability to DESTROY star systems, presumably through their technology, but no single individual in the 40K universe has ever held such a level of psychic power. Certainly, there is some argument that the Big E has psychic ability to outclass any other psyker living, and in some sources is even claimed to be the greatest psychic individual ever to exist. Probably human propaganda, but it's repeated enough times to be plausible.
In Fulgrim wasnt that farseer dude really suprised when Fulgrim saw the world as too perfect to mark as Imperial and was going to leave it....until they noticed he had a sword with a Slanesh deamon in it (oops)
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I find it unlikely that Space Marines even manage to rival the average hive ganger in intellect. They're deformed, acid drooling mutants whose idea of "brilliant tactics" is "Step 1) land a dozen marines near some enemies; step 2) stand in the open screaming and shooting at random objects; step 3) claim responsibility for the victory won by the hundred thousand guardsmen fighting in the actual battles".
Really? I can only presume you've never read any 40K fluff ever, then, or are deliberately trying to provoke a reaction of some sort.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
What? The guy has caused at least one big Warp Storm ( The storm of Emperor's wrath ) that is still active even in the 41'st millennium. And that one guy is holding 4 gods from entering our reality and "hunt" us. He ever protects the Human souls thus denying them to Chaos gods. And blowing up stars is easy, even our scientist have a way to blow up our Sun. Why should be a problem for empire that have means to blow up a planet to blow up a star?
And Humans have a respect for the Orks. They say: "never underestimate the Ork strength". You can see that also when Gabriel Angelos is fighting them in original DoW.
Amusingly enough, it virtually brought Magnus to his knees summoning enough psychic power to destroy a titan. And it terms of pure psychic power, he was pretty close to the big E. Somehow I think destroying a star would involve considerably more power than that.
It would help, of course, if the writers actually read each other's stuff and the codex fluff. Some are better than others, but it does lead to some pretty wide dissimilarities for power level regarding the same character sometimes.
I remember, back when epic was new, using Magnus to kill titans regularly, as his eye beam was pretty potent. Ah, good times
Ketara wrote:Amusingly enough, it virtually brought Magnus to his knees summoning enough psychic power to destroy a titan. And it terms of pure psychic power, he was pretty close to the big E. Somehow I think destroying a star would involve considerably more power than that.
We really don't know just how potent the Emperor's psychic power is.
Magnus may be the closest, but that could be like saying that Alpha Centuri is the closest star to our own. it's still a helluva long distance and the Emperor could be a million times more powerful then Magnus.
Ketara wrote:Amusingly enough, it virtually brought Magnus to his knees summoning enough psychic power to destroy a titan. And it terms of pure psychic power, he was pretty close to the big E. Somehow I think destroying a star would involve considerably more power than that.
errr hrrm " In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons. Representing such a great danger, the Inquisition usually executes Alpha-Plus psykers on sight unless the possibility for capture is nearly assured."
Alpha plus psykers are soo dangerous that they rarely sanction them.
Beta level psykers are the most powerful you would hope to see with any frequency(Gideon Ravenor)
Alpha's are so rare they are very rarely detected before they are found by Chaos. they are usually wholly turned over to chaos by that point.
at which the only options are to either kill it OR capture it for transport to Terra to sacrifice to the Emperor. assuming it isn't so powerful you can actually contain it.
I could be wrong on this, and diisnterested enough to look it up, but I'm pretty sure Magnus actually said at one point his psychic power was virtually equal to his fathers. Then again, fluff is usually conflicting on this sort of thing one tends to find...
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.
What? The guy has caused at least one big Warp Storm ( The storm of Emperor's wrath ) that is still active even in the 41'st millennium. And that one guy is holding 4 gods from entering our reality and "hunt" us. He ever protects the Human souls thus denying them to Chaos gods. And blowing up stars is easy, even our scientist have a way to blow up our Sun. Why should be a problem for empire that have means to blow up a planet to blow up a star?
And Humans have a respect for the Orks. They say: "never underestimate the Ork strength". You can see that also when Gabriel Angelos is fighting them in original DoW.
Everything I've been writing is from the Codices, not the BL books. The Codices are more canon than the BL books or the video game because of writers like C S Goto who seem to know nothing of the Eldar and write tons of tripe, trying to pass it off as a good book, when all they are really doing is ruining the already established good fluff. So excuse me if I don't agree with anything you have read from the BL books. After all, the authors have already stated many times that those books are an alternate reality 40k universe and provide a different view of 40k.
In Codex Eldar it states within the first few pages that the Eldar DID have that kind of power before the fall. They do not state wether they needed their Psychic technology to be able to do it or not, but they do state they could think it/dream it and it would happen.
Also, it states under the Ulthwe the damned entry in Codex Eldar 4th edition that " Craftworld Ulthwe is home to THE MOST POWERFUL PSYKERS IN THE GALAXY". ( I used capitols to emphasize, not shout) And it is a commonly held belief on Ulthwe that the Emperor is a weakling seer, not as powerful as Eldrad, as I already pointed out in my earlier post.
Brother Coa wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I find it unlikely that Space Marines even manage to rival the average hive ganger in intellect. They're deformed, acid drooling mutants whose idea of "brilliant tactics" is "Step 1) land a dozen marines near some enemies; step 2) stand in the open screaming and shooting at random objects; step 3) claim responsibility for the victory won by the hundred thousand guardsmen fighting in the actual battles".
And then come the Ultramarines with their leader Calgar and tear down your statement that SM are nothing more than stupid pricks in power armor...
It goes double for smurfs.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I find it unlikely that Space Marines even manage to rival the average hive ganger in intellect. They're deformed, acid drooling mutants whose idea of "brilliant tactics" is "Step 1) land a dozen marines near some enemies; step 2) stand in the open screaming and shooting at random objects; step 3) claim responsibility for the victory won by the hundred thousand guardsmen fighting in the actual battles".
Really? I can only presume you've never read any 40K fluff ever, then, or are deliberately trying to provoke a reaction of some sort.
It is comical hyperbole, but Space Marines exemplify Hollywood Tactics, also known as "incredibly stupid things to do in combat that someone with no clue what they're writing about thinks would totally look cool" (this used to be intentional, as a means of making them more flawed, along with generally being inhuman killing machines that were actually kind of unique and cool, basically the exact opposite of what they are now). They also tend to accomplish absurd, contradictory things, 99.9% of which can be described as "revolting mary-sue-dom", more commonly known as "who let Matt Ward out of his cage?"
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It goes double for smurfs.
Who stooped the full Tyranid invasion using only 1/3 of the chapter ( huge losses, but still...), and few allies they have...
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It is comical hyperbole, but Space Marines exemplify Hollywood Tactics, also known as "incredibly stupid things to do in combat that someone with no clue what they're writing about thinks would totally look cool" (this used to be intentional, as a means of making them more flawed, along with generally being inhuman killing machines that were actually kind of unique and cool, basically the exact opposite of what they are now). They also tend to accomplish absurd, contradictory things, 99.9% of which can be described as "revolting mary-sue-dom", more commonly known as "who let Matt Ward out of his cage?"
Tell that to Thule who defended Calderis using only scouts and few tactical marines. I know that there are great examples of SM stupidity ( like Boreale ). But in the end it all comes to the same thing: SM always kill 4x more enemies before they are either dead or victorious. And all chapters that follow Codex Astartes are having tactical coverage for every situation. They must, because their enemies outnumber them xxxxxx times, and only good leadership and tactics saved them thus far...
So don't worry, SM are usually the good tacticians ( as I said, there are of course examples of great stupidity... ). And IG are even better ( Creed, Solar... ).
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Everything I've been writing is from the Codices, not the BL books.
Yeah, it also happens that each codex glorify it's race. They are good books, but not to be taken so seriously as a canon because in every codex each race will be victorious at the end. And that is just not possible. Imperial codex said that Emperor will resurrect and Mankind will be victorious at the end, Eldar will summon their new god that will consume Slaanesh and their entire race will then be reborn on maden worlds, Orks will all unite and stomp the galaxy in one big WARGHHHH!!!!!, Tyranids will eat everything...
Codexes are even more ridiculous that DoW when it comes to canon, but if you like that race - great thing to read
The Codices are more canon than the BL books or the video game because of writers like C S Goto who seem to know nothing of the Eldar and write tons of tripe, trying to pass it off as a good book, when all they are really doing is ruining the already established good fluff. So excuse me if I don't agree with anything you have read from the BL books. After all, the authors have already stated many times that those books are an alternate reality 40k universe and provide a different view of 40k.
I said this things from both SM, IG codex + 5'th edition rulebook. And why the books are not canon? Everything that's official fluff from the GW are canon ( video games included ). I know that some books are ridiculous ( like DoW books ) but the rest are great to read ( like Abnet ). And I also read every comic from White Dwarf and boom studios ( again all canon ). And there is two views in 40k - from that race and overall. And from overall view, Eldar are dying out and Imperium is being constantly attacked.
In Codex Eldar it states within the first few pages that the Eldar DID have that kind of power before the fall. They do not state wether they needed their Psychic technology to be able to do it or not, but they do state they could think it/dream it and it would happen.
Only the most powerful Eldar had that ability, I think Eldrad had it to. But those Eldar are rare, and beside - that is forbidden amongst them since that kind of power can be abused. And they have fall because they all abused their powers and felling.
Also, it states under the Ulthwe the damned entry in Codex Eldar 4th edition that " Craftworld Ulthwe is home to THE MOST POWERFUL PSYKERS IN THE GALAXY". ( I used capitols to emphasize, not shout) And it is a commonly held belief on Ulthwe that the Emperor is a weakling seer, not as powerful as Eldrad, as I already pointed out in my earlier post.
Yeah, but it is stated in 5'th edition rulebook and SM and IG codex that the Emperor is the MOST POWERFUL PSYKER I THE EXISTENCE ( I didn't shout either ). And probably the most powerful that ever lived. Eldar are powerful psykers to, but they all individually fail when compared to the Emperor, and even together they don't have that much power. He in his deathless state overlook the Human race, protects the souls of the fallen from Chaos influence and powers the beacon that guides the Mankind ships trough the Warp ( all is from Codex and rulebook ).
And before I go from the official post... I agree that the Eldar are powerful psykers, their are ( after all they are Elves in space ). But the Emperor is most powerful psyker known to everybody ( even Eldar ), how they are seeing it is not important - but how everybody else are ( I mean, Tyranids can see the Astronomicon that gains power from the Emperor. And they are in open Void between galaxies, and that's BIG distance...).
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It goes double for smurfs.
Who stooped the full Tyranid invasion using only 1/3 of the chapter ( huge losses, but still...), and few allies they have...
The Tyranid codex leads me to believe that hive fleets take little more than some cardboard cutouts glaring in their direction to stop. Wasn't it Jormungandr or some such that was taken out by a ramshackle fleet of merchant vessels led by a handful of battleships, most of which came through still operational? Even at Macragge, Calgar's "brilliant leadership" amounts to "running into trap after trap", before the Imperial Navy shows up and saves the day, and obviously whatever PDF or Guard forces that get glossed over in the account managed to carry the land battle after the smurfs ran off to die in their fortresses, since after the Navy breaks the hive fleet the remnants of the smurfs set to mopping up the scattered resistance left on Macragge.
Tell that to Thule who defended Calderis using only scouts and few tactical marines. I know that there are great examples of SM stupidity ( like Boreale ). But in the end it all comes to the same thing: SM always kill 4x more enemies before they are either dead or victorious. And all chapters that follow Codex Astartes are having tactical coverage for every situation. They must, because their enemies outnumber them xxxxxx times, and only good leadership and tactics saved them thus far...
So don't worry, SM are usually the good tacticians ( as I said, there are of course examples of great stupidity... ). And IG are even better ( Creed, Solar... ).
Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."
In terms of Psykers, I don't know how the Emperor measures but in the current day and age we are told:
"Craftworld Ulthwe is home to the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy." - Current Eldar codex page 18.
What page is the statement about the Emperor and human Psykers?
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The Tyranid codex leads me to believe that hive fleets take little more than some cardboard cutouts glaring in their direction to stop. Wasn't it Jormungandr or some such that was taken out by a ramshackle fleet of merchant vessels led by a handful of battleships, most of which came through still operational? Even at Macragge, Calgar's "brilliant leadership" amounts to "running into trap after trap", before the Imperial Navy shows up and saves the day, and obviously whatever PDF or Guard forces that get glossed over in the account managed to carry the land battle after the smurfs ran off to die in their fortresses, since after the Navy breaks the hive fleet the remnants of the smurfs set to mopping up the scattered resistance left on Macragge.
True to some point, but Ultramarines didn't "ran" and left PDF to die. The PDF and Titan legion actually fought beside them at northern fortress. They all died of course, including the first company. But still, they held the Tyranids using Guiliman strategies. If they didn't do so, Navy would simply found another dead world...
Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."
1) Disagree. They are standing in open only when facing Orks or other melle enemies. Even when they face ranged enemies - but remember that their armor can deflect tank shells. And codex is stating that SM use cover as much as they can when facing enemies with heavy weapons...
2) Agree
3) They are only represent them in that way to look cool . In actual 40k almost all SM ware helmet - even sergeants. And some commanders have personal shield to protect them so they don't actually need helmet ( like in Mass Effect, I play without helmet but I have shield to protect myself ).
4) The question is: "How can we serve the Emperor?"
5) Then we shall redeem ourselves in the fires of battle...
Brother Coa, I'm going to have to disagree with the logic behind your statements.
You can't on the one hand state that you can't take codexes seriously as canon, and then use those same codexes to back up your own insistence that the emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.
You are right to point out the each codex promotes the strength of each race, but to say that it overstates it and exaggerates it beyond the point of comparison essentially nullifies all fluff related discussions ever held in these forums, ridiculous as some of them may be.
What is a valid, and hopefully on topic point, partial to what you mentioned earlier is that it becomes very difficult in this particular instance to measure off who is more powerful than who based on what they say about themselves. (what this does not do is preclude any other arguments about such things based on codex fluff, because they don't always directly contradict). In fact, this tells us a lot about the mindset of the eldar when viewing other races, and about the imperium too. Niether, in their arrogance, is willing to admit that the other may have capabilities that exceed their own when it comes to the things that really matter to them.
No eldar will admit a mon-keigh has greater psychic potential any more than any loyal imperialist will admit the emperor is weaker than anyone ever. Both might view each other as temporarily useful on occasion, but that does not necessarily extend itself to the realms of respect or admiration.
Reanimator wrote:Brother Coa, I'm going to have to disagree with the logic behind your statements.
You can't on the one hand state that you can't take codexes seriously as canon, and then use those same codexes to back up your own insistence that the emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.
You are right to point out the each codex promotes the strength of each race, but to say that it overstates it and exaggerates it beyond the point of comparison essentially nullifies all fluff related discussions ever held in these forums, ridiculous as some of them may be.
What is a valid, and hopefully on topic point, partial to what you mentioned earlier is that it becomes very difficult in this particular instance to measure off who is more powerful than who based on what they say about themselves. (what this does not do is preclude any other arguments about such things based on codex fluff, because they don't always directly contradict). In fact, this tells us a lot about the mindset of the eldar when viewing other races, and about the imperium too. Niether, in their arrogance, is willing to admit that the other may have capabilities that exceed their own when it comes to the things that really matter to them.
No eldar will admit a mon-keigh has greater psychic potential any more than any loyal imperialist will admit the emperor is weaker than anyone ever. Both might view each other as temporarily useful on occasion, but that does not necessarily extend itself to the realms of respect or admiration.
You are right, sorry.
I meant that codex's are representing each race as strongest. But I only take statements from codex's that makes sense, after all they are giving some inputs into army's. And in the same manner no one can say that BL books are not canon.
As for the topic I said that the Eldar are the most powerful psychic race in the galaxy. But, the Emperor IS the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daba wrote:In terms of Psykers, I don't know how the Emperor measures but in the current day and age we are told:
"Craftworld Ulthwe is home to the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy." - Current Eldar codex page 18.
What page is the statement about the Emperor and human Psykers?
Doesn't say anything about human psykers, but here is the statement about the Emperor:
"Today, as for the last 10.000 years, the Emperor lives only by the force of his supreme will. His broken and decayed body is preserved by the stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the Golden Throne. His great mind endures inside a rotted carcass, kept alive by the mystereis of ancient technology. His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders trough Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next."
5'th edition rulebook, page 101.
And from the Lexicanum:
"All at once he guides his race through the Emperor's Tarot, soul-binds psykers, holds audiences with his most important servants and beams the Astronomican beacon. His immense psychic powers constantly keep the Chaotic powers of the Warp at bay, preventing their intrusion into the material universe and protecting his people throughout the galaxy."
And from wh40k wiki, this one is about his birth;
"A year later the child who would become the Emperor was born in a Neolithic settlement of Anatolian herders and farmers. His psychic power was so powerful that its energies altered his genome and physiology in the womb and rendered him immortal so he would no longer need to reincarnate and could not be assaulted by the daemonic creatures of the Immaterium upon his death."
Like I said, Eldar have the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy. But the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."
1) They have been proven to actually use common sense and, you know, avoid fire in most non-Matt Ward fluff, such as the actions of the Ultramarines in Graham McNeill's stuff. Therefore, I'm gonna have to disagree here.
2) That is generally what you do with a gun, yes.
3) Model representation does not equal actual tactics. In almost every story ever written, the Sm only take their helmets off if they become too damaged to be of any use. Well, the SW make a notable exception to this, but that is because (in medical terms) they are less than sensible.
4) Yes, where are the enemy, what is their strength, where are the weak points in their line we can exploit, what forces are available to us, etc.
5) Only questions that go something like "wouldn't it be nice if we could all just get along for a change?"
Hmmm. I would say what sums it up is a old quote.
"Ask not an eldar a question for he will give you three answers each of which terrifying and true" now if eldar can terrify the Inquisition i doubt they will give marines any notice.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The Tyranid codex leads me to believe that hive fleets take little more than some cardboard cutouts glaring in their direction to stop. Wasn't it Jormungandr or some such that was taken out by a ramshackle fleet of merchant vessels led by a handful of battleships, most of which came through still operational? Even at Macragge, Calgar's "brilliant leadership" amounts to "running into trap after trap", before the Imperial Navy shows up and saves the day, and obviously whatever PDF or Guard forces that get glossed over in the account managed to carry the land battle after the smurfs ran off to die in their fortresses, since after the Navy breaks the hive fleet the remnants of the smurfs set to mopping up the scattered resistance left on Macragge.
True to some point, but Ultramarines didn't "ran" and left PDF to die. The PDF and Titan legion actually fought beside them at northern fortress. They all died of course, including the first company. But still, they held the Tyranids using Guiliman strategies. If they didn't do so, Navy would simply found another dead world...
By the time Calgar had thoroughly bungled the defense and pulled the smurfs back to their fortresses there were no longer sufficient transports to move the conventional forces stationed on the world. What were the numbers for the PDF/Guard there? Something like seventeen million, wasn't it? And the three hundred smurfs who ran away at the first sign of trouble (and subsequently died in their fortresses, taking a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions with them) were supposed to have had any impact on the war at all?
Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs; once the Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system, the Tyranid forces on the world were quickly broken up by normal humans whom they outnumbered a thousand to one, and then a few hundred smurfs mopped up the odd pockets of resistance.
Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."
1) Disagree. They are standing in open only when facing Orks or other melle enemies. Even when they face ranged enemies - but remember that their armor can deflect tank shells. And codex is stating that SM use cover as much as they can when facing enemies with heavy weapons...
2) Agree
3) They are only represent them in that way to look cool . In actual 40k almost all SM ware helmet - even sergeants. And some commanders have personal shield to protect them so they don't actually need helmet ( like in Mass Effect, I play without helmet but I have shield to protect myself ).
4) The question is: "How can we serve the Emperor?"
5) Then we shall redeem ourselves in the fires of battle...
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Their tactics for any situation can be summarized as "Step 1) Stand in the open (don't worry, your power armor will protect you, and even if it doesn't you have so many redundant organs it's not like you'll lose anything important); Step 2) Point gun at enemy, pull trigger; Step 3) The helmet is a mysterious and untrustworthy invention that's never done anything for anyone; do not wear one, especially not in space, which you can breath in, because you're Batman; Step 4) Any questions? Step 5) Questions are Heresy."
1) They have been proven to actually use common sense and, you know, avoid fire in most non-Matt Ward fluff, such as the actions of the Ultramarines in Graham McNeill's stuff. Therefore, I'm gonna have to disagree here.
2) That is generally what you do with a gun, yes.
3) Model representation does not equal actual tactics. In almost every story ever written, the Sm only take their helmets off if they become too damaged to be of any use. Well, the SW make a notable exception to this, but that is because (in medical terms) they are less than sensible.
4) Yes, where are the enemy, what is their strength, where are the weak points in their line we can exploit, what forces are available to us, etc.
5) Only questions that go something like "wouldn't it be nice if we could all just get along for a change?"
Are you actually attempting to seriously respond to a list that includes "because you're Batman" and "Any questions? Questions are Heresy!" as steps?
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
By the time Calgar had thoroughly bungled the defense and pulled the smurfs back to their fortresses there were no longer sufficient transports to move the conventional forces stationed on the world. What were the numbers for the PDF/Guard there? Something like seventeen million, wasn't it? And the three hundred smurfs who ran away at the first sign of trouble (and subsequently died in their fortresses, taking a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions with them) were supposed to have had any impact on the war at all?
Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs; once the Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system, the Tyranid forces on the world were quickly broken up by normal humans whom they outnumbered a thousand to one, and then a few hundred smurfs mopped up the odd pockets of resistance.
What?
Ultramarines didn't "run away from battle". The main planetary defenses was at some city ( where Calgar fought the Tyranids ) and PDF and Space Marines together retreat into the capital while the rest on the North where cut from them. And all those "sufficient transports" where destroyed by Tyranids along with Aquila fighters, it was their suicide attacks because Hive Mind knew Imperials would use them against them. And "Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs" is so wrong from your side. Ultramarines showed that new tactics must be made or fighting Tyranids and "Nids showed their true power. And the "Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system" is also wrong. After Navy joined forces with Ultramarines fleet ( what's left of it ), they persue the main Hive Fleet only to discover that another one was joined with her ( probably the main fleet that arrived ). And Tyradnis where really kicking Imperial ass, and Imperium would lose space battle if Dominus Astra didn't sacrifice by blowing up it's warp engines and send all of Tyranids to oblivion.
You should read Index Astartes III where battle for Macragge is described decently. And you even have report from Guardsman fighting alongside Ultramarines before they retreated to the capital. It's obvious that you are Ultramarine hater, so I am done debating to you...
Reanimator wrote:Brother Coa, I'm going to have to disagree with the logic behind your statements.
You can't on the one hand state that you can't take codexes seriously as canon, and then use those same codexes to back up your own insistence that the emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.
You are right to point out the each codex promotes the strength of each race, but to say that it overstates it and exaggerates it beyond the point of comparison essentially nullifies all fluff related discussions ever held in these forums, ridiculous as some of them may be.
What is a valid, and hopefully on topic point, partial to what you mentioned earlier is that it becomes very difficult in this particular instance to measure off who is more powerful than who based on what they say about themselves. (what this does not do is preclude any other arguments about such things based on codex fluff, because they don't always directly contradict). In fact, this tells us a lot about the mindset of the eldar when viewing other races, and about the imperium too. Niether, in their arrogance, is willing to admit that the other may have capabilities that exceed their own when it comes to the things that really matter to them.
No eldar will admit a mon-keigh has greater psychic potential any more than any loyal imperialist will admit the emperor is weaker than anyone ever. Both might view each other as temporarily useful on occasion, but that does not necessarily extend itself to the realms of respect or admiration.
You are right, sorry.
I meant that codex's are representing each race as strongest. But I only take statements from codex's that makes sense, after all they are giving some inputs into army's. And in the same manner no one can say that BL books are not canon.
As for the topic I said that the Eldar are the most powerful psychic race in the galaxy. But, the Emperor IS the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daba wrote:In terms of Psykers, I don't know how the Emperor measures but in the current day and age we are told:
"Craftworld Ulthwe is home to the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy." - Current Eldar codex page 18.
What page is the statement about the Emperor and human Psykers?
Doesn't say anything about human psykers, but here is the statement about the Emperor:
"Today, as for the last 10.000 years, the Emperor lives only by the force of his supreme will. His broken and decayed body is preserved by the stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the Golden Throne. His great mind endures inside a rotted carcass, kept alive by the mystereis of ancient technology. His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders trough Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next."
5'th edition rulebook, page 101.
And from the Lexicanum:
"All at once he guides his race through the Emperor's Tarot, soul-binds psykers, holds audiences with his most important servants and beams the Astronomican beacon. His immense psychic powers constantly keep the Chaotic powers of the Warp at bay, preventing their intrusion into the material universe and protecting his people throughout the galaxy."
And from wh40k wiki, this one is about his birth;
"A year later the child who would become the Emperor was born in a Neolithic settlement of Anatolian herders and farmers. His psychic power was so powerful that its energies altered his genome and physiology in the womb and rendered him immortal so he would no longer need to reincarnate and could not be assaulted by the daemonic creatures of the Immaterium upon his death."
Like I said, Eldar have the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy. But the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.
Listen to your last statement and tell me that makes any sense at all? You can't have Eldar being the most powerful psykers in the galaxy and then having the Emperor be the most powerful psyker in the galaxy too. It doesn't work like that.
Nowhere in the fluff have I ever read that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy. The Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, he's just the most powerful human psyker that has ever lived. There's a big difference there. Eldar psykers are far more powerful than the Emperor. They can actually use their psychic powers to hide entire craftworlds from Chaos and everyone else. They can use them to manipulate time and space. They opened up a large warp rift too, maybe you've heard of it...it's called the Eye of Terror. though admittedly, they did it with their own deaths
In order for the Emperor to do all the things you have listed it requires the sacrifice of hundreds if not thousands of psykers a day. So in effect, he's stealing their power to augment his own. I wouldn't call that a powerful psyker. I'd call that a psychic vampire or psychic thief! So it's not even his own power doing it, it's all those other people he has killed.
Eldar on the other hand do things like hiding their craftworlds from the material universe as well as the warp spawned chaos powers. Keeping their race safe as well, but from more than just Chaos. They manipulate the battles of other races to save their own skin too by seeing into the future. They can also use their psychic powers to bring their own dead back to life in a way.
They aren't stupid enough to purposely cause a warp storm like the Emperor did either. Not that they can't, just that they won't. They know it's a bad idea.
Now to get on topic of the beginning of this thread, while reading through the current Eldar codex I came across a nice little passage that says that " The exact shape and form of the webway is not fully understood by the Eldar of the present day. Knowledge of the Myriad secret ways is considered of such importance that the Eldar no longer share it's secrets with humans. " So in effect, no more Inquisitor Czevak entering the Black Library or any other human for that matter.
Daba wrote:None of those statements state he is the most powerful.
From the Warhammer 40k encyclopedia: "
By far the most powerful psyker in existence is the Emperor, who is practically a god.
A certain percentage of Humans in the Warhammer 40,000 universe are born with psionic abilities. Generally these powers are quite low level and would otherwise be unnoticed, but in a few individuals these psionic powers can be formidable, and any unwary psyker attracts the attention of daemonic warp entities. Consequently, psykers are generally feared and mistrusted in the Imperium as they are often associated with cults, heretics, and unfortunate supernatural incidents."
And about the Eldar:
"The Eldar are a race with well-developed psychic abilities. While all Eldar have the ability to manipulate energy from the Immaterium for supernatural effects, the circumstances of the fall of their civilization make them unable to use their psychic abilities freely. Any attempt to directly tap the energy of the Warp would result in their immediate consumption by the Chaos god Slaanesh. To avoid this fate, Eldar Seers and Warlocks use psychic foci called "runes" to moderate their access to Warp energy, allowing them to perform specifically prepared psionic feats without being destroyed or possessed at a cost in versatility."
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
By the time Calgar had thoroughly bungled the defense and pulled the smurfs back to their fortresses there were no longer sufficient transports to move the conventional forces stationed on the world. What were the numbers for the PDF/Guard there? Something like seventeen million, wasn't it? And the three hundred smurfs who ran away at the first sign of trouble (and subsequently died in their fortresses, taking a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions with them) were supposed to have had any impact on the war at all?
Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs; once the Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system, the Tyranid forces on the world were quickly broken up by normal humans whom they outnumbered a thousand to one, and then a few hundred smurfs mopped up the odd pockets of resistance.
What?
Ultramarines didn't "run away from battle". The main planetary defenses was at some city ( where Calgar fought the Tyranids ) and PDF and Space Marines together retreat into the capital while the rest on the North where cut from them. And all those "sufficient transports" where destroyed by Tyranids along with Aquila fighters, it was their suicide attacks because Hive Mind knew Imperials would use them against them. And "Macragge really reflects quite poorly on both Tyranids and smurfs" is so wrong from your side. Ultramarines showed that new tactics must be made or fighting Tyranids and "Nids showed their true power. And the "Navy broke the back of the hive fleet in the system" is also wrong. After Navy joined forces with Ultramarines fleet ( what's left of it ), they persue the main Hive Fleet only to discover that another one was joined with her ( probably the main fleet that arrived ). And Tyradnis where really kicking Imperial ass, and Imperium would lose space battle if Dominus Astra didn't sacrifice by blowing up it's warp engines and send all of Tyranids to oblivion.
You should read Index Astartes III where battle for Macragge is described decently. And you even have report from Guardsman fighting alongside Ultramarines before they retreated to the capital. It's obvious that you are Ultramarine hater, so I am done debating to you...
Every word of that is contradicted by the Tyranid codex to some extent or another. Calgar had a handful of thunderhawks, enough to move the few hundred smurfs under his command around. After fighting the swarmlord, he and his marines ran off to the worst conceivable places they could find: their polar fortresses, where at least one company dies for nothing in a hole in the ground, and directly into a trap at Circe, where the remains of their fleet are saved when the Navy shows up. The day's ostensibly carried when a battleship blows up after being torn apart by enemy fire, which is patently ridiculous because of just how huge space is, something otherwise recognized by the fluff to an unusually large degree (as far as fiction concerning space is concerned).
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Listen to your last statement and tell me that makes any sense at all? You can't have Eldar being the most powerful psykers in the galaxy and then having the Emperor be the most powerful psyker in the galaxy too. It doesn't work like that.
Again you are not reading. I will make this as simple as possible.
From a race viewpoint: Eldar
From the universe viewpoint: The Emperor
it's same as saying: "Space Marines have the mightiest warriors in the galaxy but Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is the mightiest warrior in 40k"
And I am an Idiot, arguing with Eldar things with Eldar fan-boy...
Nowhere in the fluff have I ever read that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy. The Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, he's just the most powerful human psyker that has ever lived. There's a big difference there. Eldar psykers are far more powerful than the Emperor. They can actually use their psychic powers to hide entire craftworlds from Chaos and everyone else. They can use them to manipulate time and space. They opened up a large warp rift too, maybe you've heard of it...it's called the Eye of Terror.
They have said, but in earlies versions. I have found that in encyclopedia so...yes he is the most powerful. And he can create Warp storm and cover entire star systems, protect every human soul from falling to Chaos and stooping Chaos Gods enter our realm - I call that power. And wasn't the Eye of Terror opened when all Eldar on Maiden worlds had night party with lot of drugs and sex at the same time?
And clearly you are a Eldar fan-boy and I am finished debating with you.
It doesn't mean they're weak, just that they won't use their full power.
Obviously you have to think of it in this way; who is the flagship race who will always gain the benefit of plot armour in order to make any mundane story more interesting with relative ease? Quite simply there might indeed be stronger psykers than the Emperor, but the background is generally written from the perspective of the Imperium and will thus be biased towards them pretty much all the time.
If they exist, you will probably never hear about them.
That's fine Brother Coa, you can keep calling people fan boys all you want and refuse to debate with them but you are also obviously a space marine/imperium fan boy too so it goes both ways.
I AM reading, I'm just not agreeing...big difference.
What codex states that the Emperor is the most powerful Psyker in the Galaxy? None, they all say he's just the most powerful human psyker that has ever lived. Not that he's the most powerful psyker that has ever lived.
What codex states that the Eldar are the most powerful Psykers in the Galaxy? Codex Eldar 4th edition on page 18.
I'm gonna stick to the codices for the fluff as there is no question wether they are cannon or not.
If the Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker it's only because the term is a gross understatement. He's an amalgamation of every human psyker existing in 8000 BC, jammed together into what is effectively a miniature chaos god trapped in a mortal body, considering Slaanesh was created in much the same way, only on a much larger scale.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:That's fine Brother Coa, you can keep calling people fan boys all you want and refuse to debate with them but you are also obviously a space marine/imperium fan boy too so it goes both ways.
If I am just an "Imperial fan boy" I would say "Humanity have the strongest psykers in the galaxy". So your statement is tear down.
So to please your Eldar fanboyism I will say: Eldar have one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy, and all Eldar are psykers so they are better than Humanity in that way.
Happy now?
I AM reading, I'm just not agreeing...big difference.
What codex states that the Emperor is the most powerful Psyker in the Galaxy? None, they all say he's just the most powerful human psyker that has ever lived. Not that he's the most powerful psyker that has ever lived.
What codex states that the Eldar are the most powerful Psykers in the Galaxy? Codex Eldar 4th edition on page 18.
I'm gonna stick to the codices for the fluff as there is no question wether they are cannon or not.
And I am going to stick to Imperial codex's, BL books and encyclopedias. Just reading codex's of one race gives the people picture that that race is the best, and all others falter in their demise. Codex fluff is not reliable, Imperial codex say that the army's of the Emperor have his protection and are very deadly - and even so they have hard time keeping their empire together. Tyranid codex said that nothing can opoose the will of the Hive-mind - and they where kicked several times already. Ork codecs said that nothing can't oppose the great Ork WAARGGHHHH!!!!! - and they where beaten twice at Armageddon...
And of course that the Eldar codex will say that. Space Marine codex say that nothing can't stand against the might of the Space Marines, and they can be defeated to...
But to be realistic, Emperor is just one man - and barely alive at that matter. So it doesn't really count in that matter since he can't do anything except safeguard the Human souls ( to bad for Eldar ).
Eldar are psychical more powerful than Humanity, but in the end - what is that have to do with original question?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:If the Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker it's only because the term is a gross understatement. He's an amalgamation of every human psyker existing in 8000 BC, jammed together into what is effectively a miniature chaos god trapped in a mortal body, considering Slaanesh was created in much the same way, only on a much larger scale.
Exactly, it does not say anywhere but facts are there. What Eldar can take billions of souls in a instant and battle the Chaos Gods.
He is battling against them and holding them back, and they have raped and kill all Eldar Gods... and he is even doing that almost dead.
And the fact that he is not created normal ( with birth ) but that he is the reincarnation of ALL Human psykers that existed 8000 B.C.
I think his point is the Imperial Codices don't say that.
The only thing we have are these fan-made encyclopaedias that don't cite sources.
--
Looking at the Emperor in more detail, what we have is a mechanism that holds souls in a mortal vessel. This is more or less the same as a Phoenix Lord or even an Exarch (keep in mind every Eldar has psychic potential to be considered a psyker).
So the Emperor is more like an ultra Phoenix Lord than a traditional Eldar or Human psyker.
Actually, it might not be right to call him a psyker at all. If he (a conglomeration of souls) counts, why doesn't Tzeentch count? Then you can say Tzeentch is the greatest psyker, with (say) Slaanesh following; or even funnier, Khorne, who is still the same and is vastly powerful.
So if the Emperor isn't counted as a psyker per se (as he is more of a Warp entity masquerading as a psyker), then he would be more powerful than an individual Eldar psyker but he isn't the most powerful psyker because he isn't a psyker at all anymore than Slaanesh is.
--
Speculation time: It might be hinted that the Emperor is a biomancer of some kind; what he does is create biological homonculi as 'kagemushas' which he imparts part of his being into, making them alive.
The mortal shell on the throne who fought Horus known as the 'Emperor' could be one of these; 'Malcador' may be another. So what you see as a powerful psyker was the 'Emperor' entity controlling a (biomancy created) mortal shell to appear among humans.
Maybe this is why Malcador turned to dust after the Emperor destroyed Horus.
He is the reincarnation of a bunch of sharmen from 8000BC, if I remember correctly, not every single psyker from the time if others existed. That then goes on to all that Star Child and Sensei stuff.The background changes quite often though. A fun example portraying what would now be considered heretical and thanks to retcons is entirely impossible.
Taken from White Dwarf 97:
"Chief Librarian Astropath IlIiyan Nastase
Illiyan was born to a human mother on the world of Badab following the expulsion of the tyrant there in 912 of the current millennium. His father was an unknown Eldar mercenary. The youngster was gene-tested at birth in accord with the law and subsequently taken into Imperial custody. He was reared in the government compound by the Imperial Mission which took over the running of Badab after the war.
Along with other potential psychics he undertook the journey to Earth in 924 where further tests led to the eventual soul-binding in 925. From that point Nastase was recruited into the Administratum as an Astropath. He attained the ranks of Secundus, Prefect and eventually rose to hold Consulship for four years, helping to run Terra's advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Following this he undertook four years service with the fleet, a further two years with the Dark Angels Marines and was appointed as chief of the Macragge interstellar communications link under the jurisdiction of the Ultra-Marines (965). Nastase is now 76 rears old (current year 987) but, thanks to his parentage, shows few signs of age."
The background of the Emperor is likely to be portrayed as Imperial myths, that might even be the intention of some of the writers, meaning his power could be greatly exaggerated; no one will really know.
Though it's kind of off topic a bit cause this thread doesn't appear to be "who is the greatest psyker ever (spoilers can't be anyone besides the emperor)", just how the Eldar view the Space Marines. Their view is obviously different depending on the crafteworld, Biel-Tan for example would just see them as savages that are in the way of their race's revival, nothing more than bugs in the way. Others might even ally with them occasionally to achieve a common goal. Some might even be impressed by them at some point. But the Eldar are generally arrogant and look down on all the other races.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:If the Emperor isn't the most powerful psyker it's only because the term is a gross understatement. He's an amalgamation of every human psyker existing in 8000 BC, jammed together into what is effectively a miniature chaos god trapped in a mortal body, considering Slaanesh was created in much the same way, only on a much larger scale.
Plus a thousand or so potent psykers fed to him each day for the last 10,000 years not to mention the galaxy wide reverence and worship / waging of war in his name. Imo I honestly think the corpse emperor has surpassed his mortal self and could feasibly fight and destroy a chaos god, not all at the same time mind you but one on one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daba wrote:
--
Speculation time: It might be hinted that the Emperor is a biomancer of some kind; what he does is create biological homonculi as 'kagemushas' which he imparts part of his being into, making them alive.
The mortal shell on the throne who fought Horus known as the 'Emperor' could be one of these; 'Malcador' may be another. So what you see as a powerful psyker was the 'Emperor' entity controlling a (biomancy created) mortal shell to appear among humans.
Maybe this is why Malcador turned to dust after the Emperor destroyed Horus.
End speculation
Mind officially blown ... reminds me of the final harry potter book strangely enough haha
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n0t_u wrote:.
Taken from White Dwarf 97:
"Chief Librarian Astropath IlIiyan Nastase
Illiyan was born to a human mother on the world of Badab following the expulsion of the tyrant there in 912 of the current millennium. His father was an unknown Eldar mercenary. The youngster was gene-tested at birth in accord with the law and subsequently taken into Imperial custody. He was reared in the government compound by the Imperial Mission which took over the running of Badab after the war.
Along with other potential psychics he undertook the journey to Earth in 924 where further tests led to the eventual soul-binding in 925. From that point Nastase was recruited into the Administratum as an Astropath. He attained the ranks of Secundus, Prefect and eventually rose to hold Consulship for four years, helping to run Terra's advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Following this he undertook four years service with the fleet, a further two years with the Dark Angels Marines and was appointed as chief of the Macragge interstellar communications link under the jurisdiction of the Ultra-Marines (965). Nastase is now 76 rears old (current year 987) but, thanks to his parentage, shows few signs of age."
Wasnt this retconned almost immediately afterwards and it was pretty much set in stone that eldar / human interbreeding was impossible on a genetic level ?.
Daba wrote:I think his point is the Imperial Codices don't say that.
The only thing we have are these fan-made encyclopaedias that don't cite sources.
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Looking at the Emperor in more detail, what we have is a mechanism that holds souls in a mortal vessel. This is more or less the same as a Phoenix Lord or even an Exarch (keep in mind every Eldar has psychic potential to be considered a psyker).
So the Emperor is more like an ultra Phoenix Lord than a traditional Eldar or Human psyker.
Actually, it might not be right to call him a psyker at all. If he (a conglomeration of souls) counts, why doesn't Tzeentch count? Then you can say Tzeentch is the greatest psyker, with (say) Slaanesh following; or even funnier, Khorne, who is still the same and is vastly powerful.
So if the Emperor isn't counted as a psyker per se (as he is more of a Warp entity masquerading as a psyker), then he would be more powerful than an individual Eldar psyker but he isn't the most powerful psyker because he isn't a psyker at all anymore than Slaanesh is.
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Speculation time: It might be hinted that the Emperor is a biomancer of some kind; what he does is create biological homonculi as 'kagemushas' which he imparts part of his being into, making them alive.
The mortal shell on the throne who fought Horus known as the 'Emperor' could be one of these; 'Malcador' may be another. So what you see as a powerful psyker was the 'Emperor' entity controlling a (biomancy created) mortal shell to appear among humans.
Maybe this is why Malcador turned to dust after the Emperor destroyed Horus.
End speculation
I have often thought of this myself as an explanation of what the Primarchs actually are. Considering the early fluff where the Emperor is a collection of reborn psyker 'souls' it seems plausible that he could have filled the empty genetically enhanced vessels with a bit of himself (spare souls). Perhaps this is why the Primarchs seem to be archetypes of various personality types and abilities.
This is also why, imho, that it took so much effort to kill Horus, the Emperor was wounding himself in the process. After the loss of so many primarchs and the loss of Malcador on the throne maybe this was a bit too much for the Emperor and now his 'essence' sits rebuilding.
or
perhaps he will never recover, the Lords of Terra know that what is thought of as the Emperor is simply a bio-machine of the Emperors devising, the Astronomicon its sole (soul) purpose ...and the throne is now breaking down, seemingly irreparable.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Are you actually attempting to seriously respond to a list that includes "because you're Batman" and "Any questions? Questions are Heresy!" as steps?
Generally speaking, that is what one does in a debate, no?
Eldar are in no position to be arrogant, this is a race that was mind raped by a porn god that they created, because of their own mistakes, thus creating another threat to the universe and themselves. Go Go Eldar!
Reanimator wrote:Eldar are rightly aware of their martial prowess, see path of the warrior for details therein. However humanity as a whole, impressive genetic manipulation or not, still register very low on an eldar's scale of quality. For a race that is eons older than humanity, let alone the last 10 millennia under the emperor, our sense of modernity and achievement pales when you consider what they had achieved. This, tempered with the fact they lost all of it because of their own pride and lack of self control would leave them even less likely to acknowledge any lacking of their own versus that of any of the younger races.
Having read the old Eldar Codex, and seeing the way they behave in Dawn of War, I think they still view all of humanity as foolish overconfident conquerors. What Reanimator said about their pride and lack of self control causing their own destruction, I think they possibly recognize the same kind of pride in the Astartes, but without their tempered culture that saved them from complete self destruction, they probably see humans as making the same mistakes they did, but with an even more barbaric culture and naive brashness from their standards, so even more dangerously insane than they were pre-fall. I think they respect the threat and power of the Marines as something to either be manipulated or avoided, but I don't think they "respect" the Marines as a cultural achievement at all. Perhaps in the same way you would "respect" the mentally handicapped 250-pounds-of-muscle wrestling champion at the special olympics? He's not much for a philosophical conversation, but wow can he fight.
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How about the possibility that if the humans and their chaos-god feeding empire were gone, Chaos would be a sight less worrysome? Or perhaps the possibility that humans are wrong in their belief that the flashbulb is keeping them out?
The Ultras, by and large, haven't impressed me with their stunning grasp of consequences and tactical planning. Calgar's plans have the benefit of plot armour to protect them.
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