Traitor Guard appear alot in the 40k fluff, especially the Gaunts Ghosts series, but they are oddly absent from the tabletop game. So what do you guys think? Should Traitor Imperial Guard get thier own codex, or no (assuming they get models, I know though that FW sells renegade guard models)?

As a huge IG fan and a Chaos player in both 40k and Fantasy, we don't need any more variant books. This sort of thing should be left to something else. Either a unified "Chaos" book, or a set of WD rules/ Forgeworld lists, just like Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars should be.

I'd have no problems with something in WD that said "here's a list of modifications for C:IG to make a renegade/chaos/traitor IG list" or simply allowing more "Official" acknowledgement of the Siege of Vraks Traitor lists or the like, but we have too many codecies already, more than GW can get through in a single edition and roughly a third of the total being superfluous variant books. Leave that to WD and Forgeworld where it belongs.

Way too much human races.

1.) Just use Forge World codex: Siege of Vraks

2.) Use the IG codex

We need the Hrud or some other Xenos race to be added and not another spikey IG faction.

The IG codex does a good job with it's possible buids and players can make damn near everything out of it...
You could feasibly do a SM Scout force from it if you tried hard enough.
However... i do agree SM have too many codeci they shouldn't counter that by removing all of them and boiling it down to FW rules and 1 Codex.
A unified Chaos book would be godly...
Lost and the Damned
Traitor Guard
Chaos Legions (All of them mind you)
Daemons
Almost worth switching sides for...

Way too many humans in the game already, so no.

Not really necessary. Codex: Eye of Terror and the Siege of Vraks books both have army lists for them.

I'd use those over just an IG codex, you can include fun conversions like Mutant/Beastmen and traitor guard have a rougher/less-disciplined edge to them.

I'm having a hard time remembering any traitor Guard in the Gaunt series. I suppose I'm just being pedantic though, and that you meant all of the bloodpact and heretics and stuff. Oh, there was that one guy from "traitor general".

Really though, a seperate codex just means that people would be annoyed when one or the other got some cool new toy in an update. Just look at the stormraven as an example of that.

I think that you could easily model a chaos Guard force out of the IG codex, or even use a FW one if you want a more unique list. I quite like the Tyrant's list from IA9.

My IG army are traitor guard. I have a Nurgle Theme to it so I just modeled them to be nurgly in nature and use the standard IG codex. To make it a bit more "fluffy" my command squads generally have a medic so they get FNP and the commander has a mutation of some kind that is a power weapon. It is better done that way imo.

CSMs though need either 2 books imo, one for renegade chapters and one for Traitor Legions OR options for both in a single book, but I digress...

As an IG player and an ex-chaos player (thanks CSM 4e, you ruined chaos forever), I say nay. Make an admech codex instead.

ph34r wrote:As an IG player and an ex-chaos player (thanks CSM 4e, you ruined chaos forever), I say nay. Make an admech codex instead.

Admech would be a great codex. As long as Matt Ward isn't allowed to write the fluff sections... If he did Mars would be flying through the Warp on the back of the Dragon and there would only be 1000 Adeptus Mechanicus workers making everything for the entire Imperium because for some reason they had to follow the Codex Astartes despite not being astartes and in existence prior to Guilliman. Maybe we should just avoid new codices all together until Ward is fired... Or dead.

They shouldn't get access to orders, but instead should gain the Chaos Icons. That would probably suffice.

They already have a codex:

They were in IA5: Siege of Vraks. The 5 Edition Update pdf that can be found on the FW Website.

There is also an FAQ

I think a Traitor Guard codex would be awesome. I would be interested to see what kind of special rule they'd get (ie: Orders, Faith, Instinctive Behaviour).

I voted Yes, but I feel there are not enough Codexes, I even like the Mini-Ones like the Ond BA one out of WD.

I would not be surprised if the Chaos Space Marine dex gets heretics and the likes in their elite slots but don't count as elites, ala Grey knight Henchment.

Traitor Guard? No. Lost and the Damned? Yes! There is a difference. Traitor Guard can be handled by the Guard codex just fine. Lost and the Damned would have hordes of mutants, monsters, zombies, and Chaos Marines as Elites.

They already have plenty, see Seige of Vraks by FW. I believe the lists are fairly well upto date.

Captain Jack wrote:They already have plenty, see Seige of Vraks by FW. I believe the lists are fairly well upto date.

FW books are fine except you can't use them in a competitive format, so if you wanted Traitor Guard or Lost and the Damned for a tournament you would be stuck using a "counts as" force which has been losing a lot of popularity thanks in large part to the growth in their use by people to gain an advantage in tournaments.

They Should Just use the IG dex. But i would allow it in a game, for them to assign marks from the CSM codex to guard units. But truth be told, they should just include a unit in the next chaos dex.

The Lost and the Damned deserves a book, but not Traitor Guard. LatD should include elements of Traitor Guard, but apart from being able to daemons, there's really nothing separating Traitor Guard from Imperial Guard (and on top of that, Daemons are usually associated with LatD moreso than actual Traitor Guard).

I sense...a disturbance. A great oncoming storm. Beware the witching hour!



Edit: The Imperial Guard codex with a notation that "Conscript Platoons can, by those players willing to, be represented by a swarm of properly armed Plague Zombies". Most other units in the codex can be similarly be re-purposed to represent the forces of darkness.

I always like to see a codex extending the range.

Lost and the Damned style would be fun - includng all types of stuff like the Bloodpact...

but then:
I would also like a addiitonal IG codex "Regiments of Renown" that would allow the proper creation of the cool regiments like Catachan,Tanith with all their special rules and fluff.
And a proper Adeptus Mechanicus Codex would be awesome - maybe Forge world will fill in the gap in a forthcoming IA book as even I am getting bored with repeated Space Marine Codexes.

Oh and Sisters of Battle, Demiurge, Pirate and Mercenaries one -with Eldar Corsairs, Kroot warbands, Freeboterz, Human mercs, etc.

I don't think they would need a whole new codex but more like a mini-dex that was used alongside the IG dex. This would cover the more 'elite' traitor forces such as the blood pact and could introduce things like reavers tanks (or what AT-77's IIRC), those trundle tanks or what ever those rolling balls which fired blots of electricity were called and chaos marks for guardsmen.

Yes...and no.

What kind of 'Traitor Guard' are we referring to? Chaos Guard? Tau Guard? Eldar Happy Friend Guard?

Ideally, here's what I would do:
Step 1) Strike Chaos Daemons as their own army. Roll them in with CSM and 'Cultist Friendly' Guard Conscript equivalents to create a book called "Ruinous Powers".

Why? Because this serves two purposes. One: it creates a "Chaos Legions" book, with the major players of each of the Four Gods(and Undivided) being represented. This isn't just "Oh, your Nurgle Marines are awesome!". This is "Holy crap, that is an awesome Nurgle army. You've got Death Guard accompanying a Daemon Prince, Nurglings and Plaguebearers, Plague Zombies--everything that makes me think Nurgle!". The same can, of course, be done for the other three Powers. Discourage mixing and matching the Four Powers by having a kind of 'synergy' with all facets of your list being mono-God giving a bonus.

You can, of course, for Khorne and Black Legion have some more 'elite' Guard equivalents mixed in, alongside of mutants and the rabble scum that normally follow these kinds of things.

Step 2) Chaos Space Marines receives a facelift. Red Corsairs, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and the Fallen from the Dark Angels all come into play here. This book will focus on the less-Power oriented Renegades.
Here you would have: Formations like the Blood Pact as your 'core' of the force. Allow for an upgrade to have an Aspiring Champion CSM leading the group and you've got a fairly fluffy unit here.
HQ choice could be either a Guard styled leader or SM leader, with the list resembling the fantastic "Tyrant's Legion" list from IA9.

I'm not really sure what to call this book. I'd go with something like "Broken Loyalties" probably.

Mr Morden wrote:I would also like a addiitonal IG codex "Regiments of Renown" that would allow the proper creation of the cool regiments like Catachan,Tanith with all their special rules and fluff.

I hate to break this to you, but the 'special rules and fluff' for these regiments really doesn't translate well to the tabletop. The Catachans and Tanith, specifically, are famed for their stealth assaults and ambushes. To accurately represent this, you'd have to get a special rule saying you get to club your opponent over the head when his head is turned.

The 'best fit' for these guys is, and always really will be, a one-off Veteran unit upgrade.

And a proper Adeptus Mechanicus Codex would be awesome - maybe Forge world will fill in the gap in a forthcoming IA book as even I am getting bored with repeated Space Marine Codexes.

According to Forge World, they're not even sure how to do Adeptus Mechanicus to 'make everyone happy'. People have built it up over and over and over in their mind. There's no way it will please everyone.

I'll assume the part about "repeated Space Marine Codices" wasn't dealing with Forge World. IA9+10 are the first time they've done 'exclusively' Marine books.

Oh and Sisters of Battle, Demiurge, Pirate and Mercenaries one -with Eldar Corsairs, Kroot warbands, Freeboterz, Human mercs, etc.

Sisters of Battle are in the pipe. Demiurg are supposedly going to be done as part of the Tau, which isn't a surprise since they've been in the Tau's background for awhile.

Eldar Corsairs are getting an army list in IA11.
Kroot Warbands are kinda/sorta doable, Freebooterz as well.

Human mercs are something that are much like the Tanith+Catachans: something not really suited for the tabletop by and large as their own force.
They'd be something more like a special unit for Guard/Inquisition.

Drop the redundant space marines codices, update all the current ones, then add an AdMech Dex. Simple enough...

im2randomghgh wrote:Drop the redundant space marines codices, update all the current ones, then add an AdMech Dex. Simple enough...

No, it's really not. Because what do you get that makes AdMech 'unique' and warranting their own book?

The answer is basically nothing. You'd end up with either a Guard/SM hybrid book with lots of armoured vehicles and high saves all around or something that is just too confusing to the average player.

AdMech, at this point in time, is best left to the realm of 'counts as' or until they're fleshed out better in terms of their basic line infantry.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Drop the redundant space marines codices, update all the current ones, then add an AdMech Dex. Simple enough...

No, it's really not. Because what do you get that makes AdMech 'unique' and warranting their own book?

The answer is basically nothing. You'd end up with either a Guard/SM hybrid book with lots of armoured vehicles and high saves all around or something that is just too confusing to the average player.

AdMech, at this point in time, is best left to the realm of 'counts as' or until they're fleshed out better in terms of their basic line infantry.

Gun servitors, praetorians, skitarii, electro priests and knights.

Crazy-ass Magos as HQ.

Makes sense to me...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Drop the redundant space marines codices, update all the current ones, then add an AdMech Dex. Simple enough...

No, it's really not. Because what do you get that makes AdMech 'unique' and warranting their own book?

The answer is basically nothing. You'd end up with either a Guard/SM hybrid book with lots of armoured vehicles and high saves all around or something that is just too confusing to the average player.

AdMech, at this point in time, is best left to the realm of 'counts as' or until they're fleshed out better in terms of their basic line infantry.

Gun servitors, praetorians, skitarii, electro priests and knights.

Crazy-ass Magos as HQ.

Makes sense to me...

Considering there's absolutely no standardization amongst what "Skitarii" are, it's really not a 'making sense' issue.

It's a "Where the heck do we start from?" issue.

No standardization you say? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skitarii

Although to be fair, most of it sounds like conventional Imperial Guard, while the Praetorians just sound like de-furred space Orangutans (Jokaero). If there was an AdMech Codex it would have to focus alot more on the Tech Priests themselves, who's descriptions are more suited to a Tabletop RPG rather than a Tabletop Wargame. The only way to field an actual, fluffy AdMech force would be to go Apoc and use Titans (Titan Legions), but that basically means you can pick whatever you want from any codex.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:No standardization you say? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skitarii

Haven't we done this before?

Although to be fair, most of it sounds like conventional Imperial Guard, while the Praetorians just sound like de-furred space Orangutans (Jokaero).

Which again makes me ask: what makes it special or unique?

If there was an AdMech Codex it would have to focus alot more on the Tech Priests themselves, who's descriptions are more suited to a Tabletop RPG rather than a Tabletop Wargame. The only way to field an actual, fluffy AdMech force would be to go Apoc and use Titans (Titan Legions), but that basically means you can pick whatever you want from any codex.

This is also ignoring that AdMech forces very rarely deploy entirely on their own.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
AdMech and Inquisition would have been perfect as part of a larger "Protectors of Man" book. Guard, Codex(read: Ultramarines and their Successors) Marines, and those two would have made for a fantastic book.

But no. Everyone wants everything as stand-alone or it has to have its own book.

Sometimes I wonder if you argue with me for the sake of arguing, especially since I was on your side this time.

You were kind of all over the place and I missed any real 'You're so right Kan!', it was just collateral damage.

But all seriousness. I'd rather them take their time, finesse things out and get it 'right'.

Let's not have another Grey Inquisition Monkeys book.

I am honestly praying to buddha, Jesus, Tzeentch and the Flying Spaghetti monster for a Chaos Legions book fusing all three lists into one. It would be a great business investment now due to how Daemon Players will probably pick up some CSM units and vice versa, and both picking up stuff for LatD. However it might cause a huge balance issue, since it's effectively fusing the ultility of Daemons with the reliability and customization of Space Marines while having the numbers and tanks of the Guard.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I am honestly praying to buddha, Jesus, Tzeentch and the Flying Spaghetti monster for a Chaos Legions book fusing all three lists into one. It would be a great business investment now due to how Daemon Players will probably pick up some CSM units and vice versa, and both picking up stuff for LatD. However it might cause a huge balance issue, since it's effectively fusing the utility of Daemons with the reliability and customization of Space Marines while having the numbers and tanks of the Guard.

Which, frankly, is why "Chaos Legions" shouldn't include the more 'military' cultists.

Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch don't want skilled warriors. They want devoted followers.

Khorne should have something like the Blood Pact, but I hesitate to do that simply because people don't seem to want 'Patron of Warrior Prowess and Honorable Combat' and instead want 'BLOOD!BLOOD!BLOOD!BLOOD!".

People here on Dakkadakka have already made a beta Latd list in the article section.

Which is about as useful as a dog with a hat, considering there's a list available for free from Forge World.

What I'd really like to see is hardbound codices that encompass the main forces.

Chaos: Daemons, CSM, Traitor Guard
Space Marines: BA, SW, DA, Vanilla, Salamanders, etc
Imperium: SOB, Guard, Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy

And Xenos would all get their own paper codex.

Lonecoon wrote:What I'd really like to see is hardbound codices that encompass the main forces.

Chaos: Daemons, CSM, Traitor Guard
Space Marines: BA, SW, DA, Vanilla, Salamanders, etc
Imperium: SOB, Guard, Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy

Yeah...that's not gonna work well, at all. Why?

Who the hell is going to want to buy a $50-$60 book and transport it--when their force makes up 25% of the book?

There's already enough complaints about the Codices having fluff sections that "waste space".

You're suggesting a book the size of Imperial Armour: Volume 3(which is their biggest book and easily the size of the main rulebook and another half of the main rulebook) be required for anyone playing Space Marines or Imperial Guard.

And Xenos would all get their own paper codex.

Why? You can easily cram them all into one book like you're suggesting with the above three.
If the Imperial and Chaos players have to pay out the nose for their army book and deal with wasted space, the Xenos players can suffer too.

The reason I suggest a hardbound codex for the forces is to add more choices to the players list. Instead of saying "Here's the Space Wolves codex, and here's the Blood Angels codex," you instead say "Here's special list adjustments for Space wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders, etc." Rather than relying on Datasheets, you have a unified, diverse, and customizable codex.

Keep the paper ones, sure. Getting started with a smaller, more focues codex is much easier. But make available a single book that gives you a world of options to play with.

Lonecoon wrote:The reason I suggest a hardbound codex for the forces is to add more choices to the players list. Instead of saying "Here's the Space Wolves codex, and here's the Blood Angels codex," you instead say "Here's special list adjustments for Space wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders, etc." Rather than relying on Datasheets, you have a unified, diverse, and customizable codex.

You really don't though. You end up with a book that is just a compilation. It will more likely than not suffer from that fact.

I'm not sure why you're harping on the idea of Datasheets though. Apocalypse does something entirely different, it's an entirely different way to play.

Keep the paper ones, sure. Getting started with a smaller, more focused codex is much easier. But make available a single book that gives you a world of options to play with.

Again: it comes down to convenience. How many of the players do you think will be wanting to buy a "single book that gives you a world of options to play with"...when it's the size of an encyclopedia volume?

we don't need more human codexes

kronk wrote:They already have a codex:

They were in IA5: Siege of Vraks. The 5 Edition Update pdf that can be found on the FW Website.

There is also an FAQ

Absolutely, the FW books (5, 6 or 7 depending on your taste in traitor).

GW's best kept secret, as evident by this poll.. :(

Here is how I think you should be able to represent all of the forces of Chaos

1) Chaos Daemons keep their own book. It just needs a bit of a rework to make some more playable builds in it.


2) Chaos Space Marines are separated into 2 books.

a) Chaos Legions: (Black Legion, 1000 sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard).
-Similar to Grey Knights. ie. a more elite MEQ book where stuff costs more.
-Everything in it is dedicated to one of the 4 gods. (4 cult marines choices for troops, 4 types of Dreads, 4 types of Terminators, ect.)
-You can get god specific summoned daemons, but they are less powerful then the Codex: Chaos Daemon ones.

b) Chaos Renegades: (Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Lost and the Dammed)
-A combination of Horde units, MEQ units, Stealth/Ambush specialists, and artillery.
-Everything is Chaos Undivided, nothing is god specific.
-You can get summoned daemons, but they are NOT god specific.


3) Have options for Traitor Chapters in Codex: Space Marines
-Chapters like the Red Corsairs and the Relictors are Codex chapters that went bad. They might have access to "new" stuff like Razorbacks ect.
-Huron Blackheart as a special charater.
-include some options that only Loyalists can take, some that only Renegade chapters can take. (blessed/daemon weapons for example)
-two sets of ibrarian powers to choose from, based on whether you are Loyal or Renegade.

I think there sould just be 2 or 3 chaos dex's,
1.deamons
2.csm
3. gaurd, lost and the dammed, zombies etc etc
or
1. choas codex with marines and gaurd and some demons
2. deamons and warp stuff(lost and the dammed).
but i would deffently do a traitor gaurd army, if they were cheeper.

If there is zombies then I am up for it. But would be cooler if there were other alien races in warhammer.

Kanluwen wrote:Yes...and no.

What kind of 'Traitor Guard' are we referring to? Chaos Guard? Tau Guard? Eldar Happy Friend Guard?

Ideally, here's what I would do:
Step 1) Strike Chaos Daemons as their own army. Roll them in with CSM and 'Cultist Friendly' Guard Conscript equivalents to create a book called "Ruinous Powers".

Why? Because this serves two purposes. One: it creates a "Chaos Legions" book, with the major players of each of the Four Gods(and Undivided) being represented. This isn't just "Oh, your Nurgle Marines are awesome!". This is "Holy crap, that is an awesome Nurgle army. You've got Death Guard accompanying a Daemon Prince, Nurglings and Plaguebearers, Plague Zombies--everything that makes me think Nurgle!". The same can, of course, be done for the other three Powers. Discourage mixing and matching the Four Powers by having a kind of 'synergy' with all facets of your list being mono-God giving a bonus.

You can, of course, for Khorne and Black Legion have some more 'elite' Guard equivalents mixed in, alongside of mutants and the rabble scum that normally follow these kinds of things.

Step 2) Chaos Space Marines receives a facelift. Red Corsairs, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and the Fallen from the Dark Angels all come into play here. This book will focus on the less-Power oriented Renegades.
Here you would have: Formations like the Blood Pact as your 'core' of the force. Allow for an upgrade to have an Aspiring Champion CSM leading the group and you've got a fairly fluffy unit here.
HQ choice could be either a Guard styled leader or SM leader, with the list resembling the fantastic "Tyrant's Legion" list from IA9.

I'm not really sure what to call this book. I'd go with something like "Broken Loyalties" probably.

Mr Morden wrote:I would also like a addiitonal IG codex "Regiments of Renown" that would allow the proper creation of the cool regiments like Catachan,Tanith with all their special rules and fluff.

I hate to break this to you, but the 'special rules and fluff' for these regiments really doesn't translate well to the tabletop. The Catachans and Tanith, specifically, are famed for their stealth assaults and ambushes. To accurately represent this, you'd have to get a special rule saying you get to club your opponent over the head when his head is turned.

The 'best fit' for these guys is, and always really will be, a one-off Veteran unit upgrade.

And a proper Adeptus Mechanicus Codex would be awesome - maybe Forge world will fill in the gap in a forthcoming IA book as even I am getting bored with repeated Space Marine Codexes.

According to Forge World, they're not even sure how to do Adeptus Mechanicus to 'make everyone happy'. People have built it up over and over and over in their mind. There's no way it will please everyone.

I'll assume the part about "repeated Space Marine Codices" wasn't dealing with Forge World. IA9+10 are the first time they've done 'exclusively' Marine books.

Oh and Sisters of Battle, Demiurge, Pirate and Mercenaries one -with Eldar Corsairs, Kroot warbands, Freeboterz, Human mercs, etc.

Sisters of Battle are in the pipe. Demiurg are supposedly going to be done as part of the Tau, which isn't a surprise since they've been in the Tau's background for awhile.

Eldar Corsairs are getting an army list in IA11.
Kroot Warbands are kinda/sorta doable, Freebooterz as well.

Human mercs are something that are much like the Tanith+Catachans: something not really suited for the tabletop by and large as their own force.
They'd be something more like a special unit for Guard/Inquisition.

Reposting.

Why?

Because you don't need Daemons as their own book. Most players didn't like the choice, and quite frankly it's silly.

The Imperium has what...8 different army books? With 6 of those dedicated towards Space Marines.

I say cut out at least 3 of the SM books and move from 2 chaos books to 3 chaos books (net loss of 2 books):

1) Legions of Chaos - Includes daemons, full of special rules for the various legions.

2) Chaos Renegades - renegade chapters, essentially Black Legion 'successors.'

3) Forces of Chaos - Daemons and traitor guard, regular CSM available as allies.

biccat wrote:The Imperium has what...8 different army books? With 6 of those dedicated towards Space Marines.

I say cut out at least 3 of the SM books and move from 2 chaos books to 3 chaos books (net loss of 2 books):

1) Legions of Chaos - Includes daemons, full of special rules for the various legions.

2) Chaos Renegades - renegade chapters, essentially Black Legion 'successors.'

3) Forces of Chaos - Daemons and traitor guard, regular CSM available as allies.

yes!
oh and does anyone know when the fw pdf came out???

biccat wrote:The Imperium has what...8 different army books? With 6 of those dedicated towards Space Marines.

And each one of the various Marine codices (at least the recent ones) play relatively differently.
Black Templars and Dark Angels are the only two that are very 'meh' right now. But they suffer from them trying to essentially make them "close but not close".

Which is, frankly, the issue with Templars and both flavors of Angel. They're Codex--but not.

If it were up to me, I'd cut Marines to three books.
Angels of Death--Codex Chapters. Ultramarines and their Successors along with the Imperial Fists and their Successors. This gives you a 'Codex' force which would be the idea of 'jack of all trades'. A few formations could be done as 'specialties' like Black Templars being doable with a character etc.
Angels of Vengeance--Minorly divergent Chapters like the Dark Angels, along with Raven Guard and Iron Hands+their Successors. Think of this as the 'ranged specialty' codex. Dreadnoughts, Terminators, specialty Scouts, et al. Each Chapter gets its own little list of specialties or can be used as framework to represent a 'unique' formation.
Angels of Fury--Majorly divergent Chapters. Space Wolves, White Scars, Blood Angels, and their like. Think of this as the 'close combat' oriented codex and give each Chapter its own list.

I say cut out at least 3 of the SM books and move from 2 chaos books to 3 chaos books (net loss of 2 books):
1) Legions of Chaos - Includes daemons, full of special rules for the various legions.

2) Chaos Renegades - renegade chapters, essentially Black Legion 'successors.'

3) Forces of Chaos - Daemons and traitor guard, regular CSM available as allies.

So basically you take the idea I had, but just make it more ridiculously complex and do exactly what you're complaining about the Imperium having.

Seriously. There's no reason for Legions to not include the Black Legion. Chaos Undivided is still Chaos.

Calling Renegades 'Black Legion Successors' is kind of silly, since many of the Renegades actually are devoted to specific Powers. Traitor Guard is, once again, such a vague term and it's often misused. There's very few actual entire Traitor Guard formations--but many of them throw their lot in with the renegades and Chaos Undivided, not Legions/Powers.

stonned_astartes wrote:oh and does any1 know when the fw pdf came out???

Don't use any1 for anyone, please.

The pdf to update the IA:5 army list to 5th edition came out last year, if I recall correctly. However, IA:5 was published in 2007.

Pacific wrote:
Absolutely, the FW books (5, 6 or 7 depending on your taste in traitor).

GW's best kept secret, as evident by this poll.. :(

What do you mean "Depending on your taste in traitor?" I don't have books 5-7, just the pdf for book 5. Is there an additional army list in books 6 and 7 that's not on the PDF?

Sorry, have edited it. So that means quite a few of the rules will now be out of date, or is it just a case of useing the old ig codex, do you think?

On one hand I'd love a 'proper' set of rules for IG but on the other I don't think my wallet can take the hit of another army right now...

I've been yearning to do a Sons of Sek or Blood Pact army

stonned_astartes wrote:So that means quite a few of the rules will now be out of date, or is it just a case of useing the old ig codex, do you think?

I don't have the IA 5, but the intent of the pdf that I linked was to bring the army list from IA5 up-to-date with 5th edition. So, with the pdf, you have an up-to-date army list. It references some units in the IG codex, but otherwise, it's a stand-alone army list.

I'd like to know if IA 6 and 7 add to it. I've been going back and forth about adding IA 5-7 on my list for my next Forge World order.

dave_salmon wrote:On one hand I'd love a 'proper' set of rules for IG but on the other I don't think my wallet can take the hit of another army right now...

I've been yearning to do a Sons of Sek or Blood Pact army

Then do it. Sons of Sek and Blood Pact are Guard, period.

The only variation comes from a few armored vehicles which were relatively rare or deployed for specialist occasions.

Sorry, what I meant was I'd like some variation in the rules to make them more.....'chaosy'. I have considered just having them look heretical but I'm a fluff lover and would like some interesting rules as well.

One can dream...

But on a serious note, I want to get to grips with my first army before I go for a second one!

Kanluwen wrote:

dave_salmon wrote:On one hand I'd love a 'proper' set of rules for IG but on the other I don't think my wallet can take the hit of another army right now...

I've been yearning to do a Sons of Sek or Blood Pact army

Then do it. Sons of Sek and Blood Pact are Guard, period.

The only variation comes from a few armored vehicles which were relatively rare or deployed for specialist occasions.

not really. if you read the one when they go to geroun? for the 1st time, there brutish, enhanced(mutated) blood pact, tho in the new book they are more like gaurd i do have to admitt.

I'd love to have the Incubators (The tall gaurds with the grafted vox grills), the glyphs and the wire wolves!!!!

I think the 'mapper' that dude on stillts they use to find them in the junggle would be a amazing fig.

stonned_astartes wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

dave_salmon wrote:On one hand I'd love a 'proper' set of rules for IG but on the other I don't think my wallet can take the hit of another army right now...

I've been yearning to do a Sons of Sek or Blood Pact army

Then do it. Sons of Sek and Blood Pact are Guard, period.

The only variation comes from a few armored vehicles which were relatively rare or deployed for specialist occasions.

not really. if you read the one when they go to Gereon? for the 1st time, there brutish, enhanced(mutated) blood pact, tho in the new book they are more like gaurd i do have to admitt.

First: Please, use spellcheck. I can't speak for everyone else, but having to reread posts to figure out exactly what someone is trying to say is irksome. You don't get extra points for being first. You can take the time to make a coherent post.

Secondly:
You're referring to the "Hunters". Which were Chaos Astartes, not Blood Pact or Sons of Sek.

Blood Pact have always been fairly military, at least once they were 'properly' fleshed out. The fact that the Ghosts in "Straight Silver" considered the Blood Pact to be a deciding factor like the intervention of the Crusade forces on Aexe-Cardinal.

The Sons of Sek, however, are a different breed entirely. The entire reason they were created was so that Magister Sek could have his own loyal "Blood Pact"--but with more of the strategic thinking that the Guard utilized incorporated into it.

I would like them to be in the CSM codex, as unit choices (something similar to the Imperial Armour datasheets). But it could be nice too to have their own codex.

Kanluwen wrote:

Secondly:
You're referring to the "Hunters". Which were Chaos Astartes, not Blood Pact or Sons of Sek.

Blood Pact have always been fairly military, at least once they were 'properly' fleshed out. The fact that the Ghosts in "Straight Silver" considered the Blood Pact to be a deciding factor like the intervention of the Crusade forces on Aexe-Cardinal.

The Sons of Sek, however, are a different breed entirely. The entire reason they were created was so that Magister Sek could have his own loyal "Blood Pact"--but with more of the strategic thinking that the Guard utilized incorporated into it.

No i am not. re-read the bit were the resistance atacks the bastian. Or alternitively in the book were they return to greoron were crid's kid is fighting them. they are over developed, hulkinng and mucsleular.

stonned_astartes wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Secondly:
You're referring to the "Hunters". Which were Chaos Astartes, not Blood Pact or Sons of Sek.

Blood Pact have always been fairly military, at least once they were 'properly' fleshed out. The fact that the Ghosts in "Straight Silver" considered the Blood Pact to be a deciding factor like the intervention of the Crusade forces on Aexe-Cardinal.

The Sons of Sek, however, are a different breed entirely. The entire reason they were created was so that Magister Sek could have his own loyal "Blood Pact"--but with more of the strategic thinking that the Guard utilized incorporated into it.

No I am not. re-read the bit were the resistance attacks the bastion.

And you're still wrong.

The attack on the bastion in "Traitor General" had several different forms of mutants involved. They may not have been Astartes, but they weren't "Traitor Guard" or really anything outside of a throwback to the old Beastmen.

However, what you're neglecting is that the majority of the 'House Guard' that were there were plain humans. There were also the Sons of Sek.

They were described as "intimidating" but that doesn't really mean anything. The art I've got on them from the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book has them at the size of a Guardsman, just a bit more heavily muscled which can easily be explained away as they're recruited from Chaos held worlds.

Or alternatively in the book were they return to Gereon

"Armour of Contempt".

where criid's kid

Dalin.

is fighting them. they are over developed.

They also weren't Blood Pact or Sons of Sek. They were generic mutant rabble.

Fair enough. I lay down and surender.
still think a gaurd codex with some mutents, demons and marines in it would be sick.

The Praetorians from Mechanicum were Heavily augmented human guards, as heavily as skitarii, but non-mind wiped so that they have strategy, adaptibility, and free will. Super-soldiers basically (but not like Astartes)

thay need there own codex

I think they should be (to an extent) in the CSM codex.
Maybe having some units unlocked (like henchmen) by certain HQ choices etc.
I think a whole codex of their own would be a bit silly, as they would be too much like standard Guardsmen. But just adding loads of Guard that can be available in any number in any Chaos list would make CSM too different, so something like the henchmen (and Basalisk for Iron warriors etc) would make sense in my eyes.

I saw a post earlier in the thread, and I'm too lazy to go back and quote it But basically, it said there should be a LatD codex for any Chaos aligned "guard" forces, and then a Traitor codex for regiments which had just decided to rule their own planet or allied with an occupying force such as Tau or Eldar, maybe even Orks. But yes, I'd like to see a different codex.

Repeat of earlier post: No, not at all. Not only do they not need their own dex, but GW needs to eliminate a few dexes i.e. all the different types of vanilla marines so that they can focus on dex updates and maybe a mechanicus dex.

No Mechanicus dex. Seriously. This is a dead horse, stop beating it.

Mechanicus don't 'work'.

I've also outlined exactly how they could 'eliminate a few dexes'. But of course, the non-Imperial players won't be happy until everything's in one book. No matter if it doesn't fit--if it's "vanilla-esque IT NEEDS TO BE IN ONE BOOK!!11!!!".

Kanluwen wrote:No Mechanicus dex. Seriously. This is a dead horse, stop beating it.

Mechanicus don't 'work'.

I've also outlined exactly how they could 'eliminate a few dexes'. But of course, the non-Imperial players won't be happy until everything's in one book. No matter if it doesn't fit--if it's "vanilla-esque IT NEEDS TO BE IN ONE BOOK!!11!!!".

Well nothing is accomplished by having dexes for BA, DA, BT, and vanilla marines. The SW sure, since they're still at legion strength, and the GK sure, since they are totally different, but other than that this is just wasting GW resources that could be spent updating their codices and getting this Mechanicus dex that is more needed than you could imagine.

Haters gonna Hate. Especially Kanluwen.

No, seriously. You tell me why "getting a Mechanicus dex" is 'needed'. And please for feth's sake, stop with this "haters gonna hate" crap. I don't hate the Mechanicus.

I hate this constant complaining that the Mechanicus "needs a codex or GW hates its fanbase!".

Are the Mechanicus cool?
There's no doubt that they are. But you know what else is?
The Kasrkin. Does this mean they need their own codex?
Of course not.
The Raven Guard are also cool, does that mean they should be having their own codex?
Again: of course not.

Cool does not necessarily mean "it works as a Codex". The Mechanicus book would require so much overlap with practically every book to really satisfy the fanbase that it would make the complaints about "vanilla Marines" seem tame.

With that said:
Rather than continuously posting these ridiculous ideas of "this NEEDS to be done"--try making some suggestions that aren't off the cuff of your sleeves. Go right ahead and build off my example on the previous page. I don't care.

But it's time to be realistic. Mechanicus are very unlikely to happen. And it's not because GW hates them. It's because no matter what, if it's done people won't be happy with the result.

They are valid army choice.

Kanluwen wrote:No, seriously. You tell me why "getting a Mechanicus dex" is 'needed'. And please for feth's sake, stop with this "haters gonna hate" crap. I don't hate the Mechanicus.

I hate this constant complaining that the Mechanicus "needs a codex or GW hates its fanbase!".

Are the Mechanicus cool?
There's no doubt that they are. But you know what else is?
The Kasrkin. Does this mean they need their own codex?
Of course not.
The Raven Guard are also cool, does that mean they should be having their own codex?
Again: of course not.

Cool does not necessarily mean "it works as a Codex". The Mechanicus book would require so much overlap with practically every book to really satisfy the fanbase that it would make the complaints about "vanilla Marines" seem tame.

With that said:
Rather than continuously posting these ridiculous ideas of "this NEEDS to be done"--try making some suggestions that aren't off the cuff of your sleeves. Go right ahead and build off my example on the previous page. I don't care.

But it's time to be realistic. Mechanicus are very unlikely to happen. And it's not because GW hates them. It's because no matter what, if it's done people won't be happy with the result.

We can atleast agree on two things:

1. AdMech aren't likely to get the Codex they deserve
and
2. People may not like an AdMech book if it came out, simply because AdMech are too awesome, and no matter how wicked the Codex, it would not, could not, do them justice.

But I think if they came out, it WOULD work, because they would reflect a specific style of play, dissimilar to all the others,

I.E. Unbelievably high saves, FNP across the board, and excessive firepower. To represent them like this, they would either have to be a super-elite army, or have a fatal weakness, like Tau CC, or orky accuracy. Maybe they would have a malfunction SR or something?

I want my Necron Codex, not another update or expansion to an army that already receives plenty of attention and updates. But don't get me wrong, I love the guard, I'm actually starting an army just now.

6 (SIX!!) Marine codexes (plus bad marines) and 1 (ONE!) codex for humanity.

I think we can support 2.

It's not really "can we support it".

It's "can it be done without being kinda crummy or Grey Knighted".

Kanluwen wrote:
The Raven Guard are also cool, does that mean they should be having their own codex?

Clearly the answer here is "HELL YES!"

Also, tempers people, tempers!

Repeat of my previous post:

Return to the original post!! We were talking about if Traitor Guard should have their own codex. And I said: they should be unit choices in the next CSM codex, and should be something like Imperial Armour: The Siege of Vracks. In there, a simple generic Renegade Militia squad could be a heavy weapons squad or a cannon-fodder unit depending on what you give them.
As I see it, this could solve the issue: we Chaos players get our beloved Traitor Guard :3 and there's no Traitor Guard unnecesary codex. This doesn't mean I would like such a codex, but I prefer to merge them with CSM.

No, they don't need a dex. Maybe a WD special, or if they're lucky an IA thing, but no, we don't need to disturb the writers who (I pray) are very, very busy updating codices. If we start adding all kinds of IG codices, we'll just be starting down the slippery slope the SMs took-getting 6 codices.

Kanluwen wrote:If it were up to me, I'd cut Marines to three books.
Angels of Death--Codex Chapters. Ultramarines and their Successors along with the Imperial Fists and their Successors. This gives you a 'Codex' force which would be the idea of 'jack of all trades'. A few formations could be done as 'specialties' like Black Templars being doable with a character etc.
Angels of Vengeance--Minorly divergent Chapters like the Dark Angels, along with Raven Guard and Iron Hands+their Successors. Think of this as the 'ranged specialty' codex. Dreadnoughts, Terminators, specialty Scouts, et al. Each Chapter gets its own little list of specialties or can be used as framework to represent a 'unique' formation.
Angels of Fury--Majorly divergent Chapters. Space Wolves, White Scars, Blood Angels, and their like. Think of this as the 'close combat' oriented codex and give each Chapter its own list.

So you basically took the idea I had and applied it to Space Marines, but made it needlessly more complex and did exactly what you complained about regarding my proposed Chaos lists.

Space Wolves are still Space Marines.

Which is why Space Wolves get put into Angels of Fury.

Kanluwen wrote:Which is why Space Wolves get put into Angels of Fury.

The difference between the Space Wolves and vanilla marines are no more than the difference between two individual Chaos warbands. In fact, significantly less different than two Renegade chapters.

The difference between a renegade chapter and one of the god-specific Legions is so far beyond the individual differences between codex or nearly-codex Marines that to defend the rationale for multiple marine codices and a single Chaos codex as anything other than marketing is laughable.

For the tri-codex idea, I think the Imperial fists should be in the ranged-specialty section. Being siege-masters, they would most definitely have a...preference for long-range high-power weapons. They are the MOST specialized in long-range warfare of any vanilla marines.

How are raven guard specialized in ranged warfare? They are VERY CC with their lightning claws and ninja theme.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@biccat, the difference is BIG, in that they are still a legion.

Personally, I like the idea of an all inclusive Chaos Codex. Daemons Chaos Space Marines And Traitor Guard all in one book. I don't know about the rest of you, but it makes since to me.

im2randomghgh wrote:For the tri-codex idea, I think the Imperial fists should be in the ranged-specialty section. Being siege-masters, they would most definitely have a...preference for long-range high-power weapons. They are the MOST specialized in long-range warfare of any vanilla marines.

How are raven guard specialized in ranged warfare? They are VERY CC with their lightning claws and ninja theme.

Er, no.
That's Shrike's specialty.

The Raven Guard are very much like the Dark Angels, in that they're specialized in precision assaults and use firebases made up of Tactical and Devastator Squads as a kind of 'bulwark' to lure in the enemy before slamming them with assault specialists.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also say that Imperial Fists are defensive siege specialists, but they're still as 'Codex' as it comes.

Too many imperium codexes, make more xenos!

kronk wrote:

Pacific wrote:
Absolutely, the FW books (5, 6 or 7 depending on your taste in traitor).

GW's best kept secret, as evident by this poll.. :(

What do you mean "Depending on your taste in traitor?" I don't have books 5-7, just the pdf for book 5. Is there an additional army list in books 6 and 7 that's not on the PDF?

Yes, you do get some extra stuff with books 6 and 7.

Book 6 focuses on Khorne - so you have the option for the force to be lead by a Khorne (marine) champion as well as khorne berserkers as an elites choice. There are also a slightly downgraded ogryn (5pts less with T5), 'beastmen' as a quite cheap but effective melee unit, mutant rabble (slightly better than workers rabble from the pdf), and hounds of Xaphan. A guy at my club ran this list but as a 'standard' (not khorne) chaos renegade list and it was quite good fun, especially fighting against beastmen in 40k again

Book 7 features Nurgle. Pretty much follows the same template, so it lets you take a nurgle marine champion as HQ if you want. The renegade psyker has nurgle themed powers. You can also take a 'plague zombie horde' (6pts each, T4 with FNP!), plague marines and plague ogryns as elite choices.

There might be a few other differences, but I think that is it for the most part. I think all of the wargear, infantry and heavy support options are the same across all 3 books (except the 'blight drones' you get for Nurgle)

Pacific wrote: a bunch of cool information!

Thanks!

I guess I have to consider buying books 5-7 now.

That would be a good aniversary gift from my wife this month. "Honey, I'd like 3 books about humans that turned to evil gods for salvation to celebrate our love and marriage." "Well, it is our 13th anniversary..."

Kanluwen wrote:The Raven Guard are very much like the Dark Angels, in that they're specialized in precision assaults and use firebases made up of Tactical and Devastator Squads as a kind of 'bulwark' to lure in the enemy before slamming them with assault specialists.

Not according to the Index Astartes article they don't.

Baragash wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Raven Guard are very much like the Dark Angels, in that they're specialized in precision assaults and use firebases made up of Tactical and Devastator Squads as a kind of 'bulwark' to lure in the enemy before slamming them with assault specialists.

Not according to the Index Astartes article they don't.

Then I'd suggest reading something more recent. Like...well, everything.

When acting in a defensive capacity, they work exactly like I stated.

When acting in an offensive capacity, they utilize Tactical Squads and Scout Squads to probe the weaknesses of the enemy formations before launching Drop Pod assaults to slam home the attack.

kronk wrote:

Pacific wrote: a bunch of cool information!

Thanks!

I guess I have to consider buying books 5-7 now.

That would be a good aniversary gift from my wife this month. "Honey, I'd like 3 books about humans that turned to evil gods for salvation to celebrate our love and marriage." "Well, it is our 13th anniversary..."

No problem mate! Personally I think they are great books, especially some of the artwork and maps etc. and the level of detail in them is astounding. They read almost like a fantastical version of the 'world at war' book collection.

I thought 7 was the weakest one, in terms of the background and the amount of material included. If you only buy one, the 5th is the best IMO.

It's a shame that the FW books are so expensive, although I think every 'Chaos codex sucks' threads needs to be spammed with a link to the FW list (available for free!) on the website. It's amazing how many people don't know about it, and the armies are quite well balanced and so applicable to everyone except those who play mostly at non-FW touraments.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:For the tri-codex idea, I think the Imperial fists should be in the ranged-specialty section. Being siege-masters, they would most definitely have a...preference for long-range high-power weapons. They are the MOST specialized in long-range warfare of any vanilla marines.

How are raven guard specialized in ranged warfare? They are VERY CC with their lightning claws and ninja theme.

Er, no.
That's Shrike's specialty.

The Raven Guard are very much like the Dark Angels, in that they're specialized in precision assaults and use firebases made up of Tactical and Devastator Squads as a kind of 'bulwark' to lure in the enemy before slamming them with assault specialists.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also say that Imperial Fists are defensive siege specialists, but they're still as 'Codex' as it comes.

I bolded the only parts of you post that are true.

And despite the Fists of Dorn being very much a "codex compliant" chapter (except at the beginning) that doesn't mean their chapter wouldn't be able to alter it's make-up to cater to siege warfare. I.E. a maybe two heavy weapons troopers per tac squad instead of a heavy weapons trooper and a specialty trooper, or arming their devastators with weapons that are more siege-ish, I.E. rockets, las-cannons and plasma.

yes they should, they should also start making models for them.

I would like to see rules for:
mono god chaos mixed
Lost and the damned
Traitor guard
Daemons
All CSM

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:For the tri-codex idea, I think the Imperial fists should be in the ranged-specialty section. Being siege-masters, they would most definitely have a...preference for long-range high-power weapons. They are the MOST specialized in long-range warfare of any vanilla marines.

How are raven guard specialized in ranged warfare? They are VERY CC with their lightning claws and ninja theme.

Er, no.
That's Shrike's specialty.

The Raven Guard are very much like the Dark Angels, in that they're specialized in precision assaults and use firebases made up of Tactical and Devastator Squads as a kind of 'bulwark' to lure in the enemy before slamming them with assault specialists.


I should also say that Imperial Fists are defensive siege specialists, but they're still as 'Codex' as it comes.

I bolded the only parts of you post that are true.

And yet, every piece of actual fluff on the Raven Guard that we have now barring the Index Astartes article written years ago agrees with me.

Funny how that works, right?
This nonsense of "Raven Guard=assault squads" needs to stop. They field Scouts and Tactical Marines more than they do Assault Squads. They field Devastators in fairly high numbers, but usually mount them in Razorbacks to ensure they remain mobile and can provide a hefty punch that their forces would normally lack.

And despite the Fists of Dorn being very much a "codex compliant" chapter (except at the beginning) that doesn't mean their chapter wouldn't be able to alter it's make-up to cater to siege warfare. I.E. a maybe two heavy weapons troopers per tac squad instead of a heavy weapons trooper and a specialty trooper, or arming their devastators with weapons that are more siege-ish, I.E. rockets, las-cannons and plasma.

Why would "siege warfare" equal two heavy weapons troopers per tactical squad?

You'd think it would equal more "An Imperial Fists force can opt to deploy barricades and bunkers, and for a cost fortify those structures".

Remember the whole thing between the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists is that "The Fists can build nothing that the Iron Warriors can't knock down". It makes far less sense for them to simply have "siege-y weapons". Especially when lascannons and plasma cannons aren't really what's considered "siege" weapons.
Flamers, heavy bolters, rocket launchers, and Vindicator Tanks are "siege weapons".

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No Mechanicus dex. Seriously. This is a dead horse, stop beating it.

Mechanicus don't 'work'.

I've also outlined exactly how they could 'eliminate a few dexes'. But of course, the non-Imperial players won't be happy until everything's in one book. No matter if it doesn't fit--if it's "vanilla-esque IT NEEDS TO BE IN ONE BOOK!!11!!!".

Well nothing is accomplished by having dexes for BA, DA, BT, and vanilla marines. The SW sure, since they're still at legion strength, and the GK sure, since they are totally different, but other than that this is just wasting GW resources that could be spent updating their codices and getting this Mechanicus dex that is more needed than you could imagine.

Haters gonna Hate. Especially Kanluwen.

I'm pretty sure most of these Chapters warrant a stand-alone book, especially SW and BT. I'm with Kan.