DogOfWar wrote:Hate to say it, but this has already been discussed to death with several reasonable arguments on both sides.

For what it's worth, it seems that people are slightly more in favor of the 'no' camp, but it's all conjecture until we get a FAQ.

DoW

Jidmah wrote:
People might be, but rules are not. Nothing truely prevents shunting during a sout move, as it's analogue to Turboboosting and using smoke launchers.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
People might be, but rules are not. Nothing truely prevents shunting during a sout move, as it's analogue to Turboboosting and using smoke launchers.

Turboboosting and flat out are both normal movements. Vehicles have three speeds of normal movement: Combat, cruising, and flat out. Jetbikes have a normal movement range of 1-24" except for DE jetbikes, which have a normal movement of up to 36".

Since smoke launchers may be used during a normal movement, you can smoke during a scout movement.

The downfall of scout shunting is that the shunt has no categorical inclusion into normal movement, is its own special movement type, and explicitly tells you that it is *not* a normal movement - and that to use it, you must forsake your moving turn to do so. Scouting allows you to make a normal move, not take a movement phase.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
People might be, but rules are not. Nothing truely prevents shunting during a sout move, as it's analogue to Turboboosting and using smoke launchers.

Turboboosting and flat out are both normal movements. Vehicles have three speeds of normal movement: Combat, cruising, and flat out. Jetbikes have a normal movement range of 1-24" except for DE jetbikes, which have a normal movement of up to 36".

Since smoke launchers may be used during a normal movement, you can smoke during a scout movement.

The downfall of scout shunting is that the shunt has no categorical inclusion into normal movement, is its own special movement type, and explicitly tells you that it is *not* a normal movement - and that to use it, you must forsake your moving turn to do so. Scouting allows you to make a normal move, not take a movement phase.

Last time I looked "Turbo boosters" was an USR inherent to bikes and jetbikes. In the same way, shunting is an USR inherent to units with Teleporter Packs. Arguing that one special rule is somehow "normal" when another is not feels shoddy at best to me.

Jidmah wrote:Examples for "abnormal" moves are for example "Fall back!"-moves, "Hit and Run", assault, pile-in, consolidate or moving out of the way of a tank shock. Basically anything other than what you would do when moving your model during your movement phase is not a normal move.

Mannahnin wrote:Dash, I have to disagree on the basis of Turbo Boosters. Which are not a bike or jetbike's normal movement speed, but grant a faster speed in the USR section of the rulebook.

If Turbo-boosters are allowed when Scouting (which the FAQ has clarified that they are), then Shunting should work fine too.

omerakk wrote:I really don't see how you can argue this point; it's not legal, period.

omerakk wrote:
Scout Rule:
"...any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement Phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy"

Personal Teleporter Rule:
"Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt INSTEAD of moving"

omerakk wrote:Movement, flat out, turboboosting... all of these forms of movement use the same movement rules, just different distances, and can be done EVERY turn.

omerakk wrote:Shunting doesn't follow normal movement rules and can only be done once per game.

omerakk wrote:What is so hard to understand about "normal" moving vs "non-normal or special" moving?

Incorrect

I like that you stop quoting there, and avoid the three mentions of "move" that follow that sentence, and the final "counts as moving" at the end.

Selective quoting FTL there.

Turboboosting is INSTEAD of moving normally - and is granted by a Universal Special Rule. But It's still considered "normal" to TB in a Scout move.
Shunting is instead of moving normall, and is granted by a Special Rule. BUt it would still be considered "normal" by any definition which allows TB

The fact it can be used only once per game does not make it "abnormal" by any means. BA FAQ shows you that.

Except it does follow normal movement rules. For example you still cannot come within 1" of an enemy unit. So, guess youre wrong there, again.

Um, guess you didnt read what DOES count as abnormal movement? Fall back, pile in, Assault moves are all Abnormal moves.

bushido wrote:
How often a unit can use a given ability is pretty irrelevant in this case. If I fire a combi-weapon, it's still my normal shooting, even though I can only do it once.

omerakk wrote:And apparently, you can't tell the difference between contexts in that paragraph or you would understand why there was no need to include them.

Failure to master 5th Grade English FTL there.

omerakk wrote:Nowhere in the Turbo Boosting rule does it say "instead of". You are still bound by the rules of movement, whereas shunting is not. It is more similar to deepstriking than it is to normal movement.

omerakk wrote:Wrong codex buddy, this is GK. If they shared the exact same piece of wargear, then you would have an argument.

omerakk wrote:Oh really? So shunting is blocked by terrain and intervening models like normal movement? Oh wait, it's not.

omerakk wrote:

Um, guess you didnt read what DOES count as abnormal movement? Fall back, pile in, Assault moves are all Abnormal moves.

You left shunting off that list.

Oh really? So shunting is blocked by terrain and intervening models like normal movement? Oh wait, it's not.

omerakk wrote:If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Second; you have not provided anything to show that Shunting is not "normal" movement, your explanation for how it is not means that Skimmers, jump infantry, and Jet bikes can never scout move via their normal movement. Or at least Jump infantry cannot use their Jump packs, since that is a choice vs "walking like infantry"

Dashofpepper wrote:Uh...that's right in the GK codex. The part that defines shunting as not movement? Instead of talking about a movement, it talks about replacing movement?

Turbo-boosting and Flat out are both moves and done as part of your move. See the USR. Shunting is not done as part of your move. It is done instead.

If you are given permission only to fire, you do not have permission to run - even though it happens in the same phase. Likewise with scouting, you are not given permission to take a movement phase, you are given permission to take a normal movement.

It all comes down to the three words, "Instead of moving..."

Coteaz gets to have his unit fire at units arriving from reserves within 12". You guys are arguing that he'd be allowed to get a free run towards that unit because it happens in the shooting phase. Well...you don't. You get to shoot at the unit, not take a shooting phase. And during scouts, you get to take a normal movement, not a movement phase - and shunting defines itself as exclusionary to that.

Mannahnin wrote:That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

bushido wrote:Where is the cheating?

The shunt is a move. Scouting allows you to move.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

I looked up Turbo-boosting...it doesn't say "Instead of moving" or "In place of moving" or anything to suggest that a replacement or alternative is happening...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bushido wrote:Where is the cheating?

The shunt is a move. Scouting allows you to move.

Assaults are moves. Scouting allows you to assault!

Jidmah wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

I looked up Turbo-boosting...it doesn't say "Instead of moving" or "In place of moving" or anything to suggest that a replacement or alternative is happening...

You still do it instead of normal moving, don't you?

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Q: Can you do it in your movement phase, while, as, or instead of moving?

If yes, than you can do it while scouting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sorry, where does it state it removes their normal move? The word "normal" is not used at all.

SO a movement granted by a SPECIAL Rule (USR) is normal, whereas movement granted by another SPECIAL rule is abnormal?

You are, frankly, making stuff up now. The word NORMAL does not appear in the Shunt rules. Please either back this statement up with rules (which you cannot do) or retract it. Now.

Choboking wrote:What rule am I making up?

But I disagree to that

It explicitly states that the shunt replaces movement. I think it is pretty clear this is not a normal movement, as it replaces movement.

Jidmah wrote:
That one. There is no rule to be found defining "normal move" other than "This is done exactly as in their movement phase". Exactly means exactly, no exception for any funky moves using teleporters..

I'm not trying to define a normal move, but you are misquoting the scout USR. It does not define a normal move at all. It simply states the the normal move (however it is defined) is taken just the same as in the movement phase.

If a shunt replaces movement, can you tell me how that can be considered a normal move? It isn't movement at all. It just happens during the same phase.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

I looked up Turbo-boosting...it doesn't say "Instead of moving" or "In place of moving" or anything to suggest that a replacement or alternative is happening...

Mannahnin wrote:
Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

omerakk wrote:If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.

omerakk wrote:If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.

Xarian wrote:

omerakk wrote:If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.

A player's motivations are irrelevant when assessing the validity of his argument.

The argument has devolved into discussing the definition of the word "normal". I don't think that Shunt should be usable during a Scout move, but I haven't seen any examples where the rules for Shunt and the rules for Scout contradict each other.

At this point, then, I think that the maneuver is legal by RaW, but it is likely to get hit with errata in the FAQ making it illegal (simply because it seems weird).

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

Again, disagreed. Shunt is a special move that replaces movement. Turbo-boosting is not. The two rules are worded completely differently, and only one of them (shunt) makes any reference to replacing movement.

And again - being given permission to fire your weapon does not give you permission to run. Being given permission to take a shooting phase gives you permission to shoot *or* run. You are not being given a movement phase to shunt, you are being given a normal movement, which Shunting is not. By its own definition.

Mannahnin wrote: There is no definition of "normal", so it's not like there is a simple RAW answer here.

The bike rules do clearly define the unit's movement as being 12". And the Turbo-Boosters Special Rule gives the unit a different option to use instead.

Mannahnin wrote:
Originally using special rules like Turbo Boost was illegal. Now the consistent pattern across several different rulings is that when making a Scout move, the Scouting unit gets to do whatever it would usually be able to do in the movement phase. Be that Turbo-ing, popping smoke, disembarking from a transport, or (as seems most likely and consistent with all of the above), Shunting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, Dash, it IS movement. It states so four times in the text.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
Originally using special rules like Turbo Boost was illegal. Now the consistent pattern across several different rulings is that when making a Scout move, the Scouting unit gets to do whatever it would usually be able to do in the movement phase. Be that Turbo-ing, popping smoke, disembarking from a transport, or (as seems most likely and consistent with all of the above), Shunting.

That I can buy.

kirsanth wrote:Surely. It is however a definition, otherwise you are left with the assumption they meant "voluntary" when they wrote "normal".

Which most seem to be ok with, admitedly.

Jidmah wrote:Which is, no offense, just another freely invented definition of "normal".

Brother Ramses wrote:And that is the disconnect.

You think that by move, GW means an "action". Like "make your move scumbag" not the moving associated with the Movement phase of Warhammer 40k. So your opinion is that any "action" I can do during the movement phase, I can also do in the Scout move.

The argument against that opinion is that the rule is not talking about an "action", it is specifically telling you that instead of moving as associated with the Movement phase, you are doing entirely different instead, you are teleport shunting.

I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

For example, a vehicle deep striking "counts as" moving at cruising speed, despite it never moving at cruising speed.

Or the inverse in that pivots do not "count as" moving despite the model physically moving on the game board.

Brother Ramses wrote:I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:And that is the disconnect.

You think that by move, GW means an "action". Like "make your move scumbag" not the moving associated with the Movement phase of Warhammer 40k. So your opinion is that any "action" I can do during the movement phase, I can also do in the Scout move.

The argument against that opinion is that the rule is not talking about an "action", it is specifically telling you that instead of moving as associated with the Movement phase, you are doing entirely different instead, you are teleport shunting.

I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

For example, a vehicle deep striking "counts as" moving at cruising speed, despite it never moving at cruising speed.

Or the inverse in that pivots do not "count as" moving despite the model physically moving on the game board.

Counts as, in all ways, acts as if the unit had actually performed that action.

so deepstriking vehicles will be hit on a 6 in CC just as if they had moved over six inches.

Shunting seems all good for a scout move, since it says its movement, and you are allowed to move during a scout move.

Mannahnin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

Many rules in 40k say that one thing "counts as" being another thing. And when they do so, this generally means that thing A counts as thing B for all purposes, unless and except where explicitly stated otherwise.

Please note also, that in the cases of turbo-boosting, disembarking, popping smoke launchers, assaulting a vehicle which Scout moved, and shooting at a fast skimmer shich moved flat out, GW has consistently ruled in all of these cases that during a Scout move you can do basically all the normal things you can do in the movement phase, and that said move counts just the same as a movement phase move for the purposes of interactions with other rules and other units interacting with said unit. There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings.

Abaddon wrote:The rule seems very clear to me, specifically the last sentence of it: "The unit counts as having moved."

I fully expect the FAQ to allow the use of shunting during the scout movement phase, and I recommend everyone play them as such until then because there isn't sufficient evidence to disallow it.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
Originally using special rules like Turbo Boost was illegal. Now the consistent pattern across several different rulings is that when making a Scout move, the Scouting unit gets to do whatever it would usually be able to do in the movement phase. Be that Turbo-ing, popping smoke, disembarking from a transport, or (as seems most likely and consistent with all of the above), Shunting.

That I can buy.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

...There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings.

...that it was a FAQ ruling that has allowed many non-movement actions...

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

...There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings.

...that it was a FAQ ruling that has allowed many non-movement actions...

Remember FaQ's only clarify how the rule works, and was supposed to work all along, so FaQ's do not allow anything they are just clarifications on how the rule actually works.

That said, Mann is correct "There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings." and the DK Shunt is as legal as turbo-boosting, or popping smoke. (and will be clarified as such if there is an FaQ about it)

Dashofpepper wrote:

Abaddon wrote:The rule seems very clear to me, specifically the last sentence of it: "The unit counts as having moved."

I fully expect the FAQ to allow the use of shunting during the scout movement phase, and I recommend everyone play them as such until then because there isn't sufficient evidence to disallow it.

Except for...a rulebook, a GK codex, and an FAQ?

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - the last line says "counts as moving"

The previous lines, 3 times, tell you it is a move. Ergo, oddly enough, it IS a move.

For example a power that affects Jump Infantry does not affect models that only count as Jump Infantry because they are not Jump Infantry.

Brother Ramses wrote:
While you keep taking the above stance, Gwar pointed out several times where FAQs changed the RAW of several rules instead of erratas. Others have also pointed out the same. So while you can continue to tout how FAQs only clarify that which is already legal, that isn't always the case.

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - the last line says "counts as moving"

The previous lines, 3 times, tell you it is a move. Ergo, oddly enough, it IS a move.

^+1

Not sure how to explain it any better, it actually says shunting IS a move.

Jaon wrote:I think Dash that in this case (and it seems to be so many people think that 40k rules = english grammar, which they dont) that everyone here is overlooking the difference between move and moving. It says specifically in Shunt that you may make a MOVE, and it says specifically in scout you may make a MOVE, MOVING is the process of moving 6' in the movement phase, making a MOVE is the process of moving any number of allowed inches in the movement phase.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dash - you're still wrong on this.

It is a move the DK can make NORMALLY whenever it chooses to move; thus it is a normal move. Same as the normal move Turboboost, which is also provided by a special rule.

Stating it cannot be normal because it isnt in the BRB isnt a true argument, given that all the abnormal (usually forced) movements are given in the BRB.

Your analogy is also entirely 100% incorrect. Run is only allowed in the shooting phase - so it has an additional restriction that Shunt does not. Shunt is anytime you can move, you can do X instead; run is anytime you can shoot AND you are in your shooting phase you can run.

Gooda wrote:There was something someone pointed out in my local store...you can only shunt DURING a game, however scout moves are made BEFORE a game starts.

On page 92 of the (big) rulebook it says you roll off etc and deploy

"Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves.

Start the game! Once deployment has finished..."

All three missions state this and as you haven't actually started the game you can't do your "once per game" special move.

I also agree with "make a teleport shunt instead of moving" means that they're not moving as such and therefore not a normal move. It does say that it "makes a move up to 30" in any direction" but should they instead deepstrike? Meaning it's unreliable and less likely to be used, saying move just means that you move the models from one place on the board to another.

Maybe they should have used "shunt" instead of using the word "move"

so while you could split hairs over their use of language (I'm sure everyone knows how terrible they are at it) I wouldn't let someone use it against me for these very reasons.

The OTHER thing of a Dreadknight having the personal teleporter is they're no longer Monstrous Creatures...the very first sentence of the personal teleporters says "Units with Personal Teleporters are Jump Infantry." Jump infantry and Monstrous Creature are both unit types, so you lose your relentless, ability to shoot two guns and ignoring armour saves (although you'll still have doomfists, daemon hammer or greatsword)

There was something someone pointed out in my local store...you can only shunt DURING a game, however scout moves are made BEFORE a game starts.

On page 92 of the (big) rulebook it says you roll off etc and deploy

Brother Ramses wrote:
Actually it is something only a DK with a persoanl transporter can do instead of moving. Seem to ignore that all the time and continue pointing to the physcial act of moving the model and confusing it with what the Scout move allows you to do. You and Jidmah keep saying,

"Look at my hand! I am picking up the model and MOVING it 30"! My MOVE is not ending on top of another unit or impassable terrain and is ignoring intervening units, terrain, and so on! I will not assault after this MOVE but will shoot or assault! It will count as MOVING!!"

Yet not realize that what you just did was not move, but teleport shunt. Those actions taken is not defined as a move, it is defined as a teleport shunt.

Noticing your last sentence; since you define Shunt as, "X", where does the Scout move allow you to do whatever, "X" happens to be?

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - sorry, youre arguing what now?

The Shunt rules state, *3* times, that you MOVE the model.

Try again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, troll it is then.

You're claiming that a move isnt a move. Classic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, troll it is then.

You're claiming that a move isnt a move. Classic.

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, troll it is then.

You're claiming that a move isnt a move. Classic.

Not at all.

I am claiming that the description you want to keep championing as a move is actually called a teleport shunt.

Mannahnin wrote:The Teleport Shunt special rule repeatedly describes it as a move, does it not?

Is it also your contention that a Turbo-Boost is not a move?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The Teleport Shunt special rule repeatedly describes it as a move, does it not?

Is it also your contention that a Turbo-Boost is not a move?

Do you Turbo-boost INSTEAD of moving?

I've posited a definition of normal movement: Anything included in the rulebook for movement under the movement section. To pre-empt the "Turbo-boost" people, turbo-boosting and flat out are included there as well, though it is separately defined on page 76.

Do you have a better definition? You'll need a better one to scout-shunt.

FlingitNow wrote:
2) Where did you get that definition? What page of the rulebook told you that was what was meant by normal movement?

Mannahnin wrote:Dash, you're literally making up rules now.

I reiterate, even under your definition of "everything in the movement chapter is normal movement", Turbo-Boosting is in NO WAY any more of a normal move than Shunting is.

There is no definition for a "normal move". Years ago, possibly before you started playing, GW ruled that you couldn't Turbo Boost in a Scout move, because that's not a "normal move." As I pointed out before, they even printed this in the Dark Angels codex as well, on page 27.

They have since reversed this rationale. Seriously, read the FAQ. On page 5 one of the questions is whether bikes can turbo in a scout move, and the answer is "Yes, they now can."

Is popping smoke a normal move?
Is turbo-boosting a normal move?
Is disembarking a normal move?

These are all special actions or variant ways to move (take your pick), which do not conform to a given unit type's specified movement rate.

And GW has explicitly ruled in the FAQ, in every one of these cases, that they're allowable in a Scout move.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

sourclams wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

As said by Deadshane, "lemme look for any reason that I can find as to why someone might not be able to 'shunt' during a scout move...there...I found it. Even though it says at the end of the rules for personal teleporters 'unit counts as having moved' it still doesnt state that it's a normal movement."

Choboking wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

As said by Deadshane, "lemme look for any reason that I can find as to why someone might not be able to 'shunt' during a scout move...there...I found it. Even though it says at the end of the rules for personal teleporters 'unit counts as having moved' it still doesnt state that it's a normal movement."

You questioning his motivations really doesn't make the point hes making any weaker. Someone could say people arguing in favor of scout shunt just want to gain as much advantage as they can get away with, that wouldn't wouldn't mean their argument is wrong just because of their motives.

@Mannahnin
Regarding Turbo-Boosting and Shunt, it seems Dash is saying that what makes them different is that Shunting has a line stating it is done instead of moving. Turbo-boosting has no comparable line. Thus, by that quality, Turbo Boosting is "more normal" than Shunting.

Brother Ramses wrote:
And Walrus, I am not arguing that it isn't a move. It tells you what a Teleport Shunt consists of (which includes physically moving the model and counting as movement), but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

Brother Ramses wrote:
[...] but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
And Walrus, I am not arguing that it isn't a move. It tells you what a Teleport Shunt consists of (which includes physically moving the model and counting as movement), but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

Brother Ramses wrote:
[...] but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

What?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I reiterate, even under your definition of "everything in the movement chapter is normal movement", Turbo-Boosting is in NO WAY any more of a normal move than Shunting is.

There is no definition for a "normal move". Years ago, possibly before you started playing, GW ruled that you couldn't Turbo Boost in a Scout move, because that's not a "normal move." As I pointed out before, they even printed this in the Dark Angels codex as well, on page 27.

They have since reversed this rationale. Seriously, read the FAQ. On page 5 one of the questions is whether bikes can turbo in a scout move, and the answer is "Yes, they now can."

Is popping smoke a normal move?
Is turbo-boosting a normal move?
Is disembarking a normal move?

These are all special actions or variant ways to move (take your pick), which do not conform to a given unit type's specified movement rate.

And GW has explicitly ruled in the FAQ, in every one of these cases, that they're allowable in a Scout move.

Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

Brother Ramses wrote:And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

Dashofpepper wrote:Mannahnin, there is no definition of normal movement in the rulebook. You are correct. So, to be as broad and sweeping and inclusive as possible...I said "include EVERYTHING in the ENTIRE rulebook under the movement section."

Teleport shunting, nor teleportation, nor any special movement is in there. I gave a whole list of movements you can't make in the scout phase because they are special.

Disagree with me if you like, but present a *better* definition first. Arguing for the sake of arguing without any evidence to back it up...not so useful.

Especially when all the evidence points to the opposite. Like the Shunting entry in the GK codex. The part that says that ya don't get to take a movement if you are going to shunt. Scouting is for movement, not for things that replace it.

Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

Deadshane1 wrote:Guess the only real solution is to 4+ it.

If I don't get to win the 4+ I guess I'll just have to Scout-Jump 12", Jump 12" then Charge 6....you still get jumped in HtH.

If you insist on not 4+ing it...well...I guess you need to point out the rule that clearly defines everything that is a "normal move"....

....then you have to explain why Shunting isnt a "normal move" even though the wargear description clearly states "model counts as having moved". (sounds like a normal move to me)

Anal FTW.

Brother Ramses wrote:Instead of calling people anal, questioning their motives, or telling them to leave the thread; how about you actually read the thread thoroughly and construct a valid argument. So far all you have done is add colored commentary with no substance.

The rule, yea the actual rule in the codex, tells you it is done instead of moving.

Brother Ramses wrote:What is this a description of?

If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

A teleport shunt.

What is a teleport shunt done instead of?

Moving.

The models are moved on the table to represent a teleport shunt. The models count as moving to represent a teleport shunt. But a teleport shunt is not moving as per whatever tag or marker GW has designated as moving because it is specifically done instead of moving.

Now please, OTHER then continuing to point out that the model is moved to represent a teleport shunt, please tell me how a teleport shunt is moving, DESPITE the rule specifically that it is done instead of moving. Because the description of how to do a teleport shunt is not grounds to classify it as moving when the rule starts out with the qualifier from the beginning that what you are about to do is specfically done instead of moving.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Instead of calling people anal, questioning their motives, or telling them to leave the thread; how about you actually read the thread thoroughly and construct a valid argument. So far all you have done is add colored commentary with no substance.

The rule, yea the actual rule in the codex, tells you it is done instead of moving.

Really?

Personal teleporter- "Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores......A unit that moves via a teleport shunt cannot assault......The unit counts as having moved."

Brother Ramses wrote:Thanks for proving my point that the moving inserted in the DESCRIPTION of how to do a TELEPORT SHUNT is just that, a DESCRIPTION of an action that is done INSTEAD of moving called a TELEPORT SHUNT.

What part of "the unit counts as having moved" do you not understand? I would like to attempt to help you understand this phrase if you need help with it.

Reply by: Brother Ramses - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 04:38:49

Post by: Brother Ramses

ChrisCP wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:What is this a description of?

If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

A teleport shunt.

What is a teleport shunt done instead of?

Moving.

The models are moved on the table to represent a teleport shunt. The models count as moving to represent a teleport shunt. But a teleport shunt is not moving as per whatever tag or marker GW has designated as moving because it is specifically done instead of moving.

Now please, OTHER then continuing to point out that the model is moved to represent a teleport shunt, please tell me how a teleport shunt is moving, DESPITE the rule specifically that it is done instead of moving. Because the description of how to do a teleport shunt is not grounds to classify it as moving when the rule starts out with the qualifier from the beginning that what you are about to do is specfically done instead of moving.

Do you know what moving is? It's "In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement distance" Pg 11
and scouting?
"any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy" Pg 76

So unless you are trying to say that one could never use a teleport shunt... because a scout move is 'exactly as in their movment phase' and I'm sure something can shunt in the movement phase, once per game.

Not at all Chris.

A unit with personal teleporters is Jump Infantry and per their movement rules in the BRB can choose a 6" movement or a 12" movement. Instead of doing either of those movements, the unit can elect to perform a teleport shunt which is <insert description of rule>.

Reply by: Mannahnin - click to view full reply 

963

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 04:44:13

Post by: Mannahnin

Dashofpepper wrote: No one needs to prove that shunting isn't a normal movement for you to scout-shunt, you must prove that it *is* a normal movement to be able to do so. And at this point, such proof is not possible.

No, that's not correct. The FAQs have clarified that anything you can normally do in the movement phase is normal movement. As illustrated by all the FAQ answers I've referenced.

Dashofpepper wrote:@Mannahnin: You keep going back to turbo-boosting. Its USE is explained in the movement section.

No, it's not. It's explained in the Universal Special Rules section. The movement chapter says absolutely nothing about it. The Unit Types section just tells you that Bikes HAVE the rule. It doesn't tell you how it works. You have made multiple statements in this discussion which make me wonder if you're actually reading the rulebook. Have you gotten around to reading the FAQ, like I asked you?

Dashofpepper wrote:@ So what if it is defined elsewhere? If you want to compare it to Shunting, that would be the same as shunting being referenced in the movement section, and defined elsewhere. It obviously is not. Turbo-boosting is a NORMAL movement that applies to ALL categories of a certain unit type. Probably why it is included in the movement section.

It's not in the movement chapter. It's referenced in the movement section of the Bike rules, but not explained there. As we covered earlier, it's clearly not a normal move, as you have to invoke a Special Rule to do it. Originally GW ruled (see the Dark Angels codex) that since it was not a "normal move" (the entire basis of your argument against Shunting), that it was not allowed in a Scout move. But they have since changed their mind, and made it obvious via a SERIES of consistent FAQ clarifications that you can do basically whatever you would do in a movement phase, in your Scout move. Except move within 12".

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 04:47:41

Post by: Beerfart

Ramses...please...just....stop now.

Stating that Shunting is not a movement when the end of the rule states "the unit counts as moving".....well, that and besides the fact that you pick the model up and physically move it....

You're just making a fool of yourself. Really.

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

11151

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:05:35

Post by: Dashofpepper

Beerfart wrote:Ramses...please...just....stop now.

Stating that Shunting is not a movement when the end of the rule states "the unit counts as moving".....well, that and besides the fact that you pick the model up and physically move it....

You're just making a fool of yourself. Really.

Dude. You "utilize your movement" in 40k for different things. Deadshane asked for a list - I provided it a page or three ago. Just because something counts as having taken an action doesn't mean that it did. Doing something that "counts as" movement doesn't mean that it did.

Shunting replaces movement with a special action. To prevent people from taking a normal movement after shunting, they said that you must shunt instead of taking your movement.

Need examples? When you ram 2" with a battlewagon, you count as having moved cruising speed, and so may not fire its weapons, nor its passengers. When you deep-strike, you count as having moved at cruising speed. Even Monoliths, who cannot attain cruising speed.

Shunting doesn't count as a normal movement just because you physically move the models - it counts as a movement so that you may not move further. The codex writer, in an effort to identify exactly what his intentions were, specifically explains in the shunt rule how to classify shunting: It is a special action that replaces your movement, and at the conclusion of it, you count as having moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:

No, that's not correct. The FAQs have clarified that anything you can normally do in the movement phase is normal movement. As illustrated by all the FAQ answers I've referenced.

Yes...like popping smoke. Or...maybe a Farseer casting fortune on units? Or Tervigons spawning termigants? If an FAQ shows up that rules against what the codex entry says...so be it. It is what it is. But until then, there are thousands and millions of copies of the GK codex floating around out there that all say the same thing - Shunting is done instead of your movement. It is by definition special. You don't turbo-boost instead of moving, you don't pop smoke instead of moving - which is why I don't put particular credence in the FAQs that you keep pointing out.

There are no similarly ruled codices or FAQs. If Matt wanted shunting to count as a normal movement, all he would have had to do is...leave a few words out of the entry. Why do you suppose all the extra ink was used to explicitly categorize shunting as a replacement for your movement options instead of something that would have merged nicely into scouting? Its almost like he did it on purpose!

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:12:44

Post by: Beerfart

I'm sorry, I find your explanation completely closed minded, strained and quite manipulative of the rules.

I find Mannahein's and Deadshane's examples much more sensible, within the spirit of the rules, and better attuned to the proper interpretation of written language.

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

11151

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:24:09

Post by: Dashofpepper

Beerfart wrote:I'm sorry, I find your explanation completely closed minded, strained and quite manipulative of the rules.

I find Mannahein's and Deadshane's examples much more sensible, within the spirit of the rules, and better attuned to the proper interpretation of written language.

That's nice. I think my interpretation of my Necron rules are more sensible than what is written in my codex too. All my wraiths are STR6 but have power weapons, don't need a rez orb for WBB, and get 2+ rerollable cover since they are GHOSTS! And every unit that shoots at them must pass a leadership test or quail before the idea of fighting the supernatural.

I think it is much more sensible, within the spirit of the rules, and better attuned to the proper interpretation of written language.

Your sentence is also oxymoronic. Yes, I *am* close minded. I see the rule, and it is black and white. Something that is defined as "not your movement, must sacrifice your movement to perform" is pretty black and white to me as something you don't get to do if only a normal movement is allowed. Contrarily, it takes some straining of the rules and manipulation of the words (and a hefty dose of LALALALA doesn't hurt) to arrive at another conclusion.

*edit* And thus far, the only attempt I've seen to explain how Shunting qualifies as normal movement is "Other codices have FAQs that allow them to move during their scout phase" which I find irrelevant since all references are actually for things that *are* defined as movement of some sort, and not a special replacement for it, and "Since it counts as having moved, it must be normal movement." Right. Because "counts as having moved cruising speed" means you actually moved 7-12" right?

Reply by: Mannahnin - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:28:18

Post by: Mannahnin

Teleport Shunt wrote:If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

The first, second, and third sentences all make entirely clear that shunting IS movement. The unit moves. It makes a move.

The FAQ permitting Turbo-Boosting is MOST CERTAINLY a similar case. It's the closest possible case.

If Shunting is disallowed, so is Turbo-Boosting. They're both forms of movement which are allowed by Special Rules and take the place of the unit's regular move.

Reply by: ChrisCP - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:29:06

Post by: ChrisCP

Brother Ramses wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:What is this a description of?

If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

A teleport shunt.

What is a teleport shunt done instead of?

Moving.

The models are moved on the table to represent a teleport shunt. The models count as moving to represent a teleport shunt. But a teleport shunt is not moving as per whatever tag or marker GW has designated as moving because it is specifically done instead of moving.

Now please, OTHER then continuing to point out that the model is moved to represent a teleport shunt, please tell me how a teleport shunt is moving, DESPITE the rule specifically that it is done instead of moving. Because the description of how to do a teleport shunt is not grounds to classify it as moving when the rule starts out with the qualifier from the beginning that what you are about to do is specfically done instead of moving.

Do you know what moving is? It's "In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement distance" Pg 11
and scouting?
"any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy" Pg 76

So unless you are trying to say that one could never use a teleport shunt... because a scout move is 'exactly as in their movment phase' and I'm sure something can shunt in the movement phase, once per game.

Not at all Chris.

A unit with personal teleporters is Jump Infantry and per their movement rules in the BRB can choose a 6" movement or a 12" movement. Instead of doing either of those movements, the unit can elect to perform a teleport shunt which is <insert description of rule>.

So you agree, a unit can replace it's normal move with an action, a 'scout' can perform a normal move before the first turn, this is done exactly as in the movement phase and as such any action that could be performed in the movement phase can be performed during the scout move.

Therefore to say that one can not shunt with a scout before the first movement phase is to say that performing a shunt move in any movement phase is disallowed - which is plainly untrue - so we must be able to shunt as a scout move.

Reply by: omerakk - click to view full reply 

41831

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:37:27

Post by: omerakk

Well, if there is no limit to what is considered a normal move, I guess now is the time to start deep striking units for their scout move

Reply by: Mannahnin - click to view full reply 

963

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:42:47

Post by: Mannahnin

Deep Striking can only be employed by a unit in Reserve, which has been stated to be Deep Striking.

Scouting can only be done by a unit which is on the table.

Let's not be absurd, please.

Reply by: omerakk - click to view full reply 

41831

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:47:50

Post by: omerakk

Let's not be absurd, please.

A little late for that. We hit absurd on page 2

Reply by: ChrisCP - click to view full reply 

22547

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 05:59:57

Post by: ChrisCP

omerakk wrote:Well, if there is no limit to what is considered a normal move, I guess now is the time to start deep striking units for their scout move

If you can show a rule which says says "Once per game instead of moving this unit may be placed anywhere on the board as per the deep-strike rules" and it's attached to something which is a scout then yeah - go right ahead - but it would be nice if you adheared to the topic at hand instead of firing out scenarios without concern for the rules and their interactions. As Manhannin said "Deep Striking can only be employed by a unit in Reserve, which has been stated to be Deep Striking. Scouting can only be done by a unit which is on the table. "

Reply by: omerakk - click to view full reply 

41831

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 06:07:27

Post by: omerakk

ChrisCP wrote:

omerakk wrote:Well, if there is no limit to what is considered a normal move, I guess now is the time to start deep striking units for their scout move

If you can show a rule which says says "Once per game instead of moving this unit may be placed anywhere on the board as per the deep-strike rules" and it's attached to something which is a scout then yeah - go right ahead - but it would be nice if you adheared to the topic at hand instead of firing out scenarios without concern for the rules and their interactions. As Manhannin said "Deep Striking can only be employed by a unit in Reserve, which has been stated to be Deep Striking. Scouting can only be done by a unit which is on the table. "

A necron lord with a veil can teleport anywhere on the field via the deepstrike rules during his movement phase, while he is on the board; not in reserve.

So I guess if he gains scouting while in a campaign or during an apoc match, its perfectly legal for him to deepstrike as a scout move

Reply by: Mannahnin - click to view full reply 

963

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 06:18:23

Post by: Mannahnin

Sure. As long as he has Scout, and doesn't end that move within 12" of the enemy.

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

11151

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 06:49:42

Post by: Dashofpepper

ChrisCP wrote:

If you can show a rule which says says "Once per game instead of moving this unit may...

Stop right there.

If you're given permission to move, you may only move. If you're given permission to take a movement phase, you may move or take any alternative action.
If you're given permission to only shoot, you may not run. If you're given permission to take a shooting phase, you may shoot, run, or take any alternative action.

Coteaz gets to take an out-of-sequence shooting attack. That doesn't mean he gets to run if he wants to. Because you shoot instead of running. You run instead of shooting. They are *both* shooting actions.

That's the relationship going on with the shunt/move thing. Pro-Scout-Shunt folks think that all uses of the word move and movement are interchangeable. They are not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Sure. As long as he has Scout, and doesn't end that move within 12" of the enemy.

And I disagree; because neither Veil of Darkness nor Teleporting are normal moves. Nor would a Tervigon with Scout be able to spawn gants. Nor would a scouting Farseer be able to cast psychic powers. Nor would a scouting Trygon be able to scout-burrow.

The definition of "Anything you can do in the movement phase is normal movement" simply doesn't work.

My definition is still the bestest. =D

Reply by: ChrisCP - click to view full reply 

22547

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 07:13:08

Post by: ChrisCP

Dashofpepper wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

If you can show a rule which says says "Once per game instead of moving this unit may...

Stop right there.

If you're given permission to move, you may only move. If you're given permission to take a movement phase, you may move or take any alternative action.
If you're given permission to only shoot, you may not run. If you're given permission to take a shooting phase, you may shoot, run, or take any alternative action.

Coteaz gets to take an out-of-sequence shooting attack. That doesn't mean he gets to run if he wants to. Because you shoot instead of running. You run instead of shooting. They are *both* shooting actions.

That's the relationship going on with the shunt/move thing. Pro-Scout-Shunt folks think that all uses of the word move and movement are interchangeable. They are not.

Okay, Hammer time. Your examples are poor, Coteaz is invalid, his rule mentions 'Shooting attack' the only type of shooting attack is a psychic one and "Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)." P50
So to use their 'shooting attack' "for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."
To be capable of making a shooting attack one has already forfited the right to run.

Secondly "This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy". Exactly as in their movement phase, if one is not allowed to shunt then, one can not shunt at any point in the game as the scout move is done exactly as if in the movement phase.

Reply by: Mannahnin - click to view full reply 

963

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 07:20:42

Post by: Mannahnin

Dash, bour defintion, Turbo-Boosting in a Scout move is illegal.
And popping smoke.
And disembarking.

Okay, I'll modify my definition for clarity. "Any move you would normally be able to make in the movement phase is normal movement". This doesn't account for Smoke, but we'll take that as a stealth rules change.

Premise 1: Scouting allows a unit to make a normal move.
Premise 2: Turbo-boosting requires the use of a Special Rule.
Premise 3: GW has clarified that Turbo-boosting is allowed in a Scout move.
Conclusion 1: Using a special rule which provides movement still constitutes a "normal move" for the purposes of the Scout special rule.
Conclusion 2: Shunting is allowed in a Scout move.

The wording of Teleport Shunt repeatedly describes it as movement. It is just as much movement, and just as "normal" as Turbo-boosting. FAQ answers, per GW, are clarifications, not changes. While obviously sometimes we can see that they really are changes, in this case Occam's Razor says this one is a clarification. And that what's good for the goose (Turbo-Boost) is good for the gander (Shunt).

I'm really not sure where all this resistance is coming from, anyway. It's not like it's hard to counter or all that scary.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 07:30:38

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

To be fair, rereading the scout rules I'd say we actually DO have a definition of "normal move":

Scouts are used to reconnoitre ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player makes his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

Emphasis mine. The bolded part clearly refers to making a normal move. From this, we learn that a "normal move" is a move made exactly as in the Movement phase whith the exception that you have to stay more than 12" away. As shunting is allowed during the movement phase, it is allowed during the scout phase. QED.

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

11151

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 08:16:50

Post by: Dashofpepper

Walrus:

Scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase.....

The NORMAL MOVE is done exactly as in their movement phase.

It doesn't say that any movement phase action is done during the scouting move, it says that normal moves done during a scout replicate what they do in normal movement.

Shunting is allowed in the movement phase. Shunting is not a move. Shunting is a teleport. Shunting replaces movement with another action (teleportation) with the end result being that the unit counts as having moved, with other restrictions.

@Mannahnin: I'll buy your definition. "Any move you would normally be able to make in the movement phase is normal movement."

This doesn't apply to shunting...which says, "Instead of moving...do the following." Shunting is defined as an ACTION that replaces movement, that when finished makes the unit count as having moved. There are many actions that can be taken in the movement phase, none of them actually movement, several of them which make the unit count as having moved though.

Reply by: ChrisCP - click to view full reply 

22547

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 08:23:29

Post by: ChrisCP

Dashofpepper wrote:Walrus:

Scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase.....

The NORMAL MOVE is done exactly as in their movement phase.

It doesn't say that any movement phase action is done during the scouting move, it says that normal moves done during a scout replicate what they do in normal movement.

Shunting is allowed in the movement phase. Shunting is not a move. Shunting is a teleport. Shunting replaces movement with another action (teleportation) with the end result being that the unit counts as having moved, with other restrictions.

@Mannahnin: I'll buy your definition. "Any move you would normally be able to make in the movement phase is normal movement."

This doesn't apply to shunting...which says, "Instead of moving...do the following." Shunting is defined as an ACTION that replaces movement, that when finished makes the unit count as having moved. There are many actions that can be taken in the movement phase, none of them actually movement, several of them which make the unit count as having moved though.

If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

11151

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 08:28:01

Post by: Dashofpepper

Chris, quote the part before that. The one about how you teleport shunt (action) instead of making a movement (normal says I)

Yes...shunting requires you to move the models and the result is that they count as having moved.

Maybe we need to start using move, Move, MOVE, and Movement.

Because physically moving models != making a movement...especially the kind that define it that way for you...aka. previously given examples.

Here's another: A lashed unit doesn't make a move, but they do MOVE 2d6.

Reply by: ChrisCP - click to view full reply 

22547

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 08:54:06

Post by: ChrisCP

Yes, "instead of moving..."
It doesn't effect anything.

We have permission to make a move, TS can be done in place of a move, therefore we can TS.

Otherwise, we have permission to make a move, TS can be done in place of a move, but we don't have permission to use TS, so we can never use a TS.

I don't understand your reference to Lash... I don't see how it works for your argument, they are moved, they do not make their own move so could not replace that with another action.

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

11151

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 08:57:04

Post by: Dashofpepper

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, "instead of moving..."
It doesn't effect anything.

If it was meaningless, why would it be written in? If they wanted it to count as a normal move, they could have saved money, ink, manpower, and infinite player arguments by just not writing it in there.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:
We have permission to make a move, TS can be done in place of a move, therefore we can TS.

So let me get this right.

You have permission to do A.
A != B.
Therefore we may do B.

Yeah...that doesn't work out so well.

If shunting was a subset of movement, you could scout-shunt. Except for the pesky codex entry telling you that it isn't.

Reply by: ChrisCP - click to view full reply 

22547

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 08:59:53

Post by: ChrisCP

???
What?

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

11151

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 09:02:49

Post by: Dashofpepper

ChrisCP wrote:???
What?

I know, durn logic getting in the way and all. That, and pesky rules.

Reply by: ChrisCP - click to view full reply 

22547

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 09:07:54

Post by: ChrisCP

Dashofpepper wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:???
What?

I know, durn logic getting in the way and all. That, and pesky rules.

Why did they include 'instead of moving?' Because otherwise one could do it at any point on top other other actions...
"Once per game a unit can make a TS."

Dashofpepper wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:
We have permission to make a move, TS can be done in place of a move, therefore we can TS.

So let me get this right.

You have permission to do A.
A != B.
Therefore we may do B.

Yeah...that doesn't work out so well.

If shunting was a subset of movement, you could scout-shunt. Except for the pesky codex entry telling you that it isn't.

Okay so for the whole game we are going to have permission to do A, B can be done in liue of A. But we can't... because? What you are saying units may not run - ever, we can't tankshock, we can't drop a WWP, etc.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 10:22:34

Post by: nosferatu1001

How doesnt it work?

So far it is exactly how GW has ruled.

Oh, and BR - shunt == move. It tells you that 3 times. Your attempt to claim that a shunt isnt a move, and Dashs, is asinine in face of the rules as given.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 11:05:36

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Dashofpepper wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, "instead of moving..."
It doesn't effect anything.

If it was meaningless, why would it be written in? If they wanted it to count as a normal move, they could have saved money, ink, manpower, and infinite player arguments by just not writing it in there.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:
We have permission to make a move, TS can be done in place of a move, therefore we can TS.

So let me get this right.

You have permission to do A.
A != B.
Therefore we may do B.

Yeah...that doesn't work out so well.

If shunting was a subset of movement, you could scout-shunt. Except for the pesky codex entry telling you that it isn't.

...except that's exactly how it works.

We have permission to do A. B may be done instead of A. Thus, permission to do A is permission to do B.

To quote yourself:

Dashofpepper wrote:
I know, durn logic getting in the way and all. That, and pesky rules.

Reply by: Stavkat - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 11:55:02

Post by: Stavkat

I approve this thread. But I like merry-go-rounds so maybe I am biased.

Come on folks, GW just isn't a quality organization when it comes to rules. "Normal Move" isn't defined, and this personal teleporter rule says "instead of moving" in one sentence and then says moving in other sentences, which to any proofreader would scream contradiction or confusion. But who am I kidding, GW doesn't have any proofreaders! Also, I think I could train a chimpanzee to write a better gaming system, and this is coming from someone who is a fan of 40k.

Reply by: Choboking - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 18:32:18

Post by: Choboking

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
...except that's exactly how it works.

We have permission to do A. B may be done instead of A. Thus, permission to do A is permission to do B.

Well actually, if the Scout move does only allow normal moves, that isn't how it works. Thats kinda the point. In a normal phase B is permitted to replace A. But IF only A is allowed (as is the argument), then no, B is not permitted in its place because B is not equal to A.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 18:37:15

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Choboking wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
...except that's exactly how it works.

We have permission to do A. B may be done instead of A. Thus, permission to do A is permission to do B.

Well actually, if the Scout move does only allow normal moves, that isn't how it works. Thats kinda the point. In a normal phase B is permitted to replace A. But IF only A is allowed (as is the argument), then no, B is not permitted in its place because B is not equal to A.

Either both are allowed or none is. If you can do A you can do B. The rules even state that it's a move done exactly as during the movement phase, except the 12" part. You're allowed to make a movement during the scout phase, the GK Codex then further allows you to replace any movement with a shunt.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 18:37:18

Post by: nosferatu1001

Yet in this case shunting is a move that can normally be performed, so CAN be performed in the Shunt
Claiming it cannot be a normal move, because it isnt in the BRB, is an unsafe argument.

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 19:10:59

Post by: Dashofpepper

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Choboking wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
...except that's exactly how it works.

We have permission to do A. B may be done instead of A. Thus, permission to do A is permission to do B.

Well actually, if the Scout move does only allow normal moves, that isn't how it works. Thats kinda the point. In a normal phase B is permitted to replace A. But IF only A is allowed (as is the argument), then no, B is not permitted in its place because B is not equal to A.

Either both are allowed or none is. If you can do A you can do B.

No...that's not how it works. Saying that it does doesn't make it true.

Here is a nifty example to try putting this into real world perspective.
---------------------------------------------
Example: It is dinner time. You would rather play video games. Your mother tells you that you may play video games instead of coming to the table to eat , but you're going to count as having eaten dinner because after the dishes are done, the kitchen is closing. So eat or go hungry. You choose to play video games.
Question 1: Did you eat?
Question 2: If a friend of your named "Scout" gives you a Snicker Bar the following morning and tells you that you may eat it, do you have permission to play video games?

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 19:25:27

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Dashofpepper wrote:
Question 1: Did you eat?

If the description of my options included three references meaning that playing video games=eating then yes, I did.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Question 2: If a friend of your named "Scout" gives you a Snicker Bar the following morning and tells you that you may eat it, do you have permission to play video games?

Irrelevant. As we're using a permissive ruleset, anything I'm allowed to do I'm allowed to do until something tells me I'm not allowed to do so. The Scouts rule doens't say that.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 21:43:14

Post by: nosferatu1001

Dash - so why does it classify Shunt as a Move, 3 times, if you are claiming it isnt a move?

Address that point, without the "lalalala" that you're claiming others are employing.

Reply by: omerakk - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 22:56:18

Post by: omerakk

About 4 pages back Nosferatu and I had a misunderstanding that got out of hand. It happens sometimes, but I apologize for that.

I bring this up because it seems like there are nothing but personal fights going on in this thread now between a half dozen people, and most constructive arguments are gone now. How many times have we read someone new say "I didn't feel like looking through 4 pages of bickering" and that's very true. We had 2 pages of debating, followed by 4 pages of fighting and restating the exact same opinions.

Personal fights
No new theories
No one being convinced from one side to the other

I vote that if nobody can come up with a completely brand new piece of evidence or rule to support their theory, we just bury this thread and move on. (and maybe that dreadnought = scoring thread too since it' going the same way)

Reply by: Dashofpepper - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/08 23:49:20

Post by: Dashofpepper

Pretty much.

Nosferatu: Your question has been answered by four people, one of them being me, having done it at least twice, over the last few pages. If you're too lazy to read, I'm too lazy to retype for your benefit.

AlmightyWalrus: I don't think you understand what permissive means. =p You just said you get to do anything until something tells you you're not allowed. That's RESTRICTIVE ruleset. That's not what 40k is - which is you may do NOTHING until given permission to.

Omerakk: We are going in circles, nothing new...demonstrated by the last couple pages. I'm out!

Reply by: wallacethe5 - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 03:42:40

Post by: wallacethe5

All arguements here are as good as they could get. I have silent and observing, so here is my two cents.

Some people here argue what moving is, so let me help a mite bit.

What is movement phase?
What is shooting phase?
What is the assualt phase?

In the movement phase, you MOVE!!!!

In the shooting phase, you do not move. You shoot or run (yes, running is moving but it is specific to the word, RUN.)
Or... if you got shot up and fail the test, you fall back. (Yes, it is a move too, but specifically, falling back)

In the assault phase, you do not move. Why? Because you are assaulting. Yes... it is a unit movement. Unit is moving to assault, but it is very specific. You assault.

Or if you want to get out of the thick of it, you use hit and run USR. You fall back (very specific for this type of 'movement') Enemy consolidates (Also very specific for this type of moving movement)

Fail an assault, unit fall back (specific wording) winner and loser takes Initiative test to CHASE THEM DOWN (very, very specific as that is what their movement is about) If unit has what ever Special rules like And They Shall Know Know Fear or USR like 'Fearless', it prevents the unit falling back from getting destroyed.

I think most would get what I am trying to get to here. If not, than maybe those people should think in a different way. Figure it out themselves.

So, in regards in the shunting move... It like that 'Yo dawg' comment but funnier. Replaces the move... with another form of move... to move.
So, when does a unit move? During movement phase. What does scout say? Letting the unit move in as in a normal movement phase.

What else DOES THE RULEBOOK SAYS?????????
CODEX RULES GOES FIRST!!!!!

What does GK codex says?
Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving.(How far can those with legs move in a movement phase? Yes. 6 Inches. What else does the sentence also say? Right... Elect to make a teleport shunt INSTEAD of moving. So, no longer moving, now teleporting) If making a teleport shunt, (specific wording of what type this movement is) the unit immedietly makes a move (And when do we move? Yes the movement phase. So this means the shunt is used during a movement phase by changing a 'normal' move of 6 inches to a 30 inch teleport shunt. What type of move? A teleport shunt move. Have a cookie.) of up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignore intervening units, terrain and so on (The restrictions and bonuses associated to this move, but I am wonder what the "and so on" implies. Maybe this "and so on" also includes ... everything? Anything? I say anything and everything)A unit that moves via a teleport shunt (Movement type used on the movement phase after changing the normal move for this special move) cannot assualt in the same turn, (AH. Specific worded restriction) Although it can shoot or run as normal (specificly worded). The unit counts as having moved. (So, units has moved after using this special type of movement in the movement phase of the unit/s or model/s in question.)

BUT... What does the USR of Scouts says?


Please do not post links to illegal downloads of copyrighted material. Ta.


reds8n.




Scouts are used to reconnoitre ahead and are
always in the vanguard of the army. To represent
this, after both sides have deployed (including
Infiltrators), but before the first player begins his
first turn, any Scouts may make a normal move. (So this means, specifically, the 6 inches)
This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, (Also, very specific on how to use this USR)
except that units of Bikes may not use their turbo-
boosters special ability for their Scout move. (Very specific restriction, but not related. Handy for those using bikes to know this)
During this move, however, Scouts must remain
more than 12” away from any enemy. (Specific words.)
If both sides have Scouts, roll a dice to determine
who goes first and alternate moving these units.

If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a
dedicated transport vehicle, it confers the Scout
ability to the transport.

Errata and FAQ of the scout. You could have TB when scouting
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_March_2009.pdf


So, USR scouts says make a normal move. GK codex say, instead of moving. GK is no longer moving. Your normal move of 6 inches is replaced by a specifically worded teleport shunt if you want to shunt instead of walikng or whatever.

I RAEG!!!!!!ASDKJNFVASPJIHNBASJPBASIUBN

Please tell if I am wrong.

Reply by: quietus - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 05:47:13

Post by: quietus

I'm sorry but this is really sad, in my HO.

I'm new again to the rules:

I asked a question.

not only do I end up getting insulted but down right chastised, indirectly at that.

Didn't receive an apology nor an explanation / hell a good standing up for what you said. - If I were to view this as some are interpreting this question / thread it makes me wonder how much more insulting your comments really were / are meant to be. ?

the needlessness carries to others as well?

you all do realize these are fictional rules and toys right?

Entertainment

Where is the Professionalism?

Its a simple question number 1. complicated?

maybe (for me ... at 1st)(I'm new, deal with it)(please and thank you)

I copied the scout rules at the very beginning and I believe some of the most useful parts of the shunt insert,

the Scout rule Clearly states: any Scouts may make a normal move.(rule) This is done exactly as in their Movement phase.(explanation)

(units movement options)- ?

seems true esp. once held to the FAQ'd items mentioned

there are No definitions of a normal move: for any units within any text I have seen / read or have been posted.

the shunt rule states that the shunt can be done in the movement phase.

place this on / with the scout rule: it clearly states that you can move how you would / could in your normal movement phase ...

this has been said many a times over - I can see some disagree - so you say why -

I guess my question is can you see any logic in this ideology? (putting aside any predetermined views of people?) - or how they may be / strictly looking at the rules and rulings ...

If so but you can add something determining to the argument, than I personally see no real Logical reason to continue with an apology against the current interpretations.

Does anyone have anything to add that would truly clarify the opposing argument? - that a shunt move is not allowed during the movement phase, therefore barring it in a scout move: because the scout move allows any movement that can be done within the movement phase. -

quietus.

Reply by: wallacethe5 - click to view full reply 

41202

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 05:55:45

Post by: wallacethe5

quietus wrote:I'm sorry but this is really sad, in my HO.

I'm new again to the rules:

I asked a question.

not only do I end up getting insulted but down right chastised, indirectly at that.

Didn't receive an apology nor an explanation / hell a good standing up for what you said. - If I were to view this as some are interpreting this question / thread it makes me wonder how much more insulting your comments really were / are meant to be. ?

the needlessness carries to others as well?

you all do realize these are fictional rules and toys right?

Entertainment

Where is the Professionalism?

Its a simple question number 1. complicated?

maybe (for me ... at 1st)(I'm new, deal with it)(please and thank you)

I copied the scout rules at the very beginning and I believe some of the most useful parts of the shunt insert,

the Scout rule Clearly states: any Scouts may make a normal move.(rule) This is done exactly as in their Movement phase.(explanation)

(units movement options)- ?

seems true esp. once held to the FAQ'd items mentioned

there are No definitions of a normal move: for any units within any text I have seen / read or have been posted.

the shunt rule states that the shunt can be done in the movement phase.

place this on / with the scout rule: it clearly states that you can move how you would / could in your normal movement phase ...

this has been said many a times over - I can see some disagree - so you say why -

I guess my question is can you see any logic in this ideology? (putting aside any predetermined views of people?) - or how they may be / strictly looking at the rules and rulings ...

If so but you can add something determining to the argument, than I personally see no real Logical reason to continue with an apology against the current interpretations.

Does anyone have anything to add that would truly clarify the opposing argument? - that a shunt move is not allowed during the movement phase, therefore barring it in a scout move: because the scout move allows any movement that can be done within the movement phase. -

quietus.

You're right. I was a mite bit crass in injecting some humour in my post. I editted the negative words off now. Try reading it as in the voice Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 05:57:01

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Dashofpepper wrote:

AlmightyWalrus: I don't think you understand what permissive means. =p You just said you get to do anything until something tells you you're not allowed. That's RESTRICTIVE ruleset. That's not what 40k is - which is you may do NOTHING until given permission to.

Try rereading my post. I said that you're allowed to do anything that you already have permission to do until something limits you. As there's no restriction on when you can shunt other than having to be able to move, you can do it anytime that you can move as in the movement phase.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 08:50:24

Post by: nosferatu1001

Dash - oddly enough I did read them. All I got was handwaving about "its not really meaning a MOVE so much as an actual physical movement" - which is an entirely bogus argument. It ignores the text of the rule and requires replacement of other words.

Not lazy; no argument has so far managed to actually explain away this small fact.

You are told, 3 times, that shunting == move. 3 times

There is no argument that this is not a move. And, as it is a move you can normally perform during your movement phase - and in common with even SPECIAL moves granted by USRs such as Turboboost - you CAN perform it in your Scout phase

This is in keeping with all FAQ rulings explaining that yes, you get to treat it as a movement phase - you can disembark, embark, blow smoke, use special movement that you can normally perform (TB) - anything ou can normally do.

Your arbitrarily restrictive definition of normally, which actually encompasses abnormal movement such as pile in, fall back and similar, is just that - arbitrary. It ignores precedent as it, strictly, states you cannot TB, as TB is granted by a USR NOT detailed in the movement section of the rulebook.

Anyways, the end result is the same: you CAN scout shunt because the rules allow it. No amount of handwaving away a "move", one referred to as such a total of 3 times in the rules, as not being a "move" will get round that.

Reply by: Accersitus - click to view full reply 

28554

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 15:51:16

Post by: Accersitus

I have to say I agree with dash on this one.

I also agree that disembark needed to be FAQed to work during a scout move (note that this is another "count as moving" action, but you can still move if the transport hasn't moved yet, indicating this terminology is there to indicate that the unit hasn't made a move, but for shooting purposes they count as moving.)

Smoke launchers are used after completing it's move (and you complete a move when you scout), not at the end of the movement phase, so they would have been fine.

As for turbo-boosters, Bikes can move up to 12" in the movement phase. When using their turbo-boosters, they may move up to 24" in the Movement phase. Turbo-boosters are also specified in the movement rules for bikes.
Both of these are described as "move up to X" in the movement phase" (as is normal infantry and jump infantry movement). This indicates that the wording for turbo-boosters is consistent with other forms of normal movement.
The restrictions for turbo-boosting is also consistent with the entries for bikes, and jump infantry detailing how to deal with terrain, and intervening models.

The Teleport Shunt is used instead of moving (so you can't move and shunt), then it details where the models may teleport using the terminology already in place, move 30" in any direction ignoring terrain and other units, end the move somewhere not in impassible terrain or inside a unit. Then it lists it's limitation (you can't assault after teleporting). Then finally it allows you to shoot after teleporting, but you count as moving (exactly as when disembarking).

The way I see it, Teleporting has a restriction saying it "counts as moving" != moving, as you can still move in some cases where you already "count as moving". If the teleport was a normal move, this terminology would not be needed, as the model would already have moved eliminating the need for a "counts as moving". The teleport shunt is also instead of moving, not "Once per game the unit may elect to move up to 30" in the Movement phase. This move can not end on top of another unit or impassible terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so on. A unit that moves with a teleport shunt may not assault in the following assault phase..." This phrasing would be consistent with the other movement forms, and thus clearly allow using it as a scout move.

Also, it seems if you allow the teleport to be used during a scout move, they could break the 12" rule for scout moves to a certain degree (as specific beats general rules), as they ignore intervening units during their move (and only have to obey the 12" rule during their move), allowing them to appear behind a unit as long as they moved through it, and there are no other units within 12" (that they are not passing through).

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 16:23:09

Post by: nosferatu1001

it didnt need to be FAQ'd - it is something you can normally when you choose to move an embarked unit. No possibility of it not being "rules" there.

You, yet again, have ignored that it states it si a move. 3 times. No more handwaving allowed....

Reply by: Accersitus - click to view full reply 

28554

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 18:43:46

Post by: Accersitus

nosferatu1001 wrote:it didnt need to be FAQ'd - it is something you can normally when you choose to move an embarked unit. No possibility of it not being "rules" there.

You, yet again, have ignored that it states it si a move. 3 times. No more handwaving allowed....

Embarking is an action a unit can take if every model is withing 2" of an access point of a transport that can carry them(unless it moved flat out). You can move then embark on a transport.
Disembarking is an action an embarked unit can take (with some restrictions). You can disembark, then move (if the transport didn't move first).

As you can't move twice in a movement phase, embarking/disembarking != moving as you can move + embark or disembark + move.
Because of this, embarking/disembarking during a scout move has to be FAQed, as it's not the same as the game term moving (although it counts as moving).
If it had been the same as moving(Edit: or part of a move), they wouldn't need to specify it counts as moving.

And I didn't ignore that they mention move in the rules for teleport shunt, I mentioned how it is different in wording for Turbo-boost (and other forms of normal moving),
and how it has similarities to embarking/disembarking (counts as moving) (which I have clarified my stance on in this post).
My point is that the (counts as moving) part is redundant in your interpretation, since your position is that you clearly move when you use Teleport Shunt, the "in any direction" part of the rule would also be redundant, as a move can always be in any direction (unless blocked by terrain or other units).

The rules seem distinctive enough to indicate that it might be something other than a normal move(done instead of moving, counts as moving, and can specifically go in any direction),
and we can only speculate on the intentions GW has with the rule in relation to scouting. In a permissive system, I would say if there is a doubt if something is allowed, don't do it until there is a FAQs.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 18:48:37

Post by: nosferatu1001

Redundancy is not evidence of anything. The rules for Bikes includes noting the increased toughness from a bike does not affect ID, despite this being clearly written in the ID rules.

Turboboost is a move you can normally perform, granted by a special rule
Shunting is a move you can normally perform, granted by a special rule

They are more similar than not.

Embarking is a move (counts as a move means it IS A MOVE in all measures) so can be performed in the scout phase, if you have scout. Same for disembark. It did not require a FAQ (remember FAQs arent meant to change rules, which is what you are arguing) but the FAQ simply confirms the trend:

If you can NORMALLY do X in your movement phase, you can do X in your scout phase. Rmemeber you can pop smoke, which most definitely IS NOT moving!

Reply by: Accersitus - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 19:28:42

Post by: Accersitus

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Embarking is a move (counts as a move means it IS A MOVE in all measures) so can be performed in the scout phase, if you have scout. Same for disembark. It did not require a FAQ (remember FAQs arent meant to change rules, which is what you are arguing) but the FAQ simply confirms the trend:

FAQs are there to clarify areas where the rules are not clear, and embarking/disembarking is not normal movement, it's the rules for dealing with units that are riding in a transport vehicle, and it is not 100% clear from the rules (without the FAQ) if you can embark/disembark during a scout move).
Embarking doesn't count as a moving, only disembarking. From the rules, a unit that starts with all models withing 2" of an access point, doesn't move to embark (at least the way it is written in my rulebook).

If the rulebooks were 100% consistent in their rules, we wouldn't be discussing this, and we wouldn't need FAQs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you can NORMALLY do X in your movement phase, you can do X in your scout phase. Rmemeber you can pop smoke, which most definitely IS NOT moving!

But as I explained, popping smoke is something you can do after moving. If you moved/could move, you can pop smoke, and you can move during the scout move, so popping smoke in a scout move would be ok.

Reply by: Mannahnin - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 19:39:04

Post by: Mannahnin

Turbo-boosting remains the seeming clinch case.

Both are special rules, used in place of the unit's regular move.
Both are done in the movement phase.
Both are described in their own entry as being movement.

GW originally ruled (ref DA codex, page 27) that Turbo-Boosting couldn't be done in the Scout move as it was not "normal movement", then reversed their reasoning.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/09 22:12:20

Post by: nosferatu1001

In order to embark, you MUST move to within 2" of an access point, Simply starting there is not enough.

Hence why i said - embarking and disembarking are PERFECTLY normal movements you can make. Entirely so.

Popping smoke is NOT MOVEMENT, so why can you do it? Because it is something you can normally DO in a movement phase, even thjough it isnt actually movement.

Shunting is something you can normally do in your movement phase, AND it is a move!

Reply by: taylor048 - click to view full reply 

41010

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/10 01:35:07

Post by: taylor048

If it counted as "Normal Movement" surely you would be able to assault after, as you are allowed to after a "Normal Move".

Reply by: ChrisCP - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/10 02:04:53

Post by: ChrisCP

Yes one could assault afterwards, that's why the rule contains a prohibition from it.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/10 05:47:44

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

We already have a definition of a "normal move" in the BRB, it's any move you'd be allowed to do in the movement phase except you must stay 12" away from enemies. Thus, shunting, which is a move you can do during your movement phase, is allowed. Anyone claiming that shunt is a special move for the purpouses of scouting should read the definition of a normal move in the scout rules one more time.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

22508

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/10 07:34:41

Post by: FlingitNow

FAQs are there to clarify areas where the rules are not clear, and embarking/disembarking is not normal movement, it's the rules for dealing with units that are riding in a transport vehicle, and it is not 100% clear from the rules (without the FAQ) if you can embark/disembark during a scout move).
Embarking doesn't count as a moving, only disembarking. From the rules, a unit that starts with all models withing 2" of an access point, doesn't move to embark (at least the way it is written in my rulebook).

Finish this thought and you'll see that Shunting is allowed. As you state FaQs clarify grey areas they don't and can't change or create rules.

So no rule can require an FaQ to work, they can only require an FaQ for you to understand them.

The fact that the FaQs have been consistent on this matter with the wording in the Scouts USR (normal move = what you can do in the movement phase), it seems fictious to down right dishonest to claim that you beleive the rule to be anything but Shunting be allowed during the Scout move.

Reply by: Stavkat - click to view full reply 

29383

Dreadknight Scouting with a Shunt move? @ 2011/05/12 15:32:55

Post by: Stavkat

Mannahnin wrote:Turbo-boosting remains the seeming clinch case.

Both are special rules, used in place of the unit's regular move.
Both are done in the movement phase.
Both are described in their own entry as being movement.

GW originally ruled (ref DA codex, page 27) that Turbo-Boosting couldn't be done in the Scout move as it was not "normal movement", then reversed their reasoning.

This reasoning makes sense to me. I wonder why then did GW have the phrase "instead of moving" at the beginning of the personal teleporter entry? Obviously a shunt move is different from a regular jump infantry move (in max distance, one time usage), so what was the point? Just seems incredibly sloppy to me, which shouldn't be surprising I guess.