I must have lucked out because my shop and friends still play the way its supposed ta. No proxies, no i cant paint, no tool(overpowered or broke) lists. Just wysiwyg fun, Take it from me this is the way to play. No my rolls sucked or i could have won if. Some of my favorite moments came in the midst of a lose. Like a Fire Warrior beating a ork in cc and living!! Then wounding a nob and dying( special paint job for that). Play win lose or draw till the end, no conceding. How bout this fun: Loseing badly , bring it back at the end. On 6 there was Gazgul? and one Gun drone left on the table. We had more fun from there out than the rest of the game( we threw turns out of the equation.

To end: There is too much fun to be had in the gray area inbetween winning or loseing to worry about what your record is


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by the way paint ur army, good or not its yours


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Also dont be a strickler on some rules. If some one forgets a deep strike let them still have it. No biggie you want to win with them at full force. A couple rules should stay like failed assaults, terrain stuff, but once again let stuff slide. Much better than tourney play

That attitude is fine, and endorsed by most gamers for friendly games.

At tournaments, where you've paid money to enter, potentially shelled out for plane tickets, hotel reservations and more to participate in a large-scale organized event (where people care about whether they win or lose), it would be a bad thing to not be a stickler about the rules. It would be a bad thing to not care if you win or lose - those folks generally don't shell out the big bucks to travel to events.

In short, your attitude is fine. It is appropriate for friends playing amongst each other. However, I would encourage you not to blanket the entire hobby withing your sweepingly limited advice.

Finally, this is an internet forum. Welcome to Dakka! By your typing, I'm guessing that you're probably a rather young teenager. txtspk isn't very well received in forums, and your thoughts and opinions are likely to be better received if what you type is legible. Shy away from shorthand, use sentences, phrase your thoughts into a coherent structure. I've seen plenty of 11-13 year olds communicate exceptionally well and have their thoughts and opinions valued...and plenty of 18-25 year old folks get dismissed as a 10 year old too young to have anything worthwhile to say because they were illiterate.

I hope you enjoy the website and take my advice.

The problem is those people don't post on the internet, because they're not looking for advice on how to tool up their army for maximum efficiency, they're not math hammering lists so they can take out the next tournament. They're just playing the game in their spare time. It's called beer and pretzels gaming. Generally, you're drinking beer and having a few laughs while playing as well.

The internet is full of people doing the opposite. They are posting lists, getting advice on how to make them better, finding out the statistical chance of beating x unit with y unit. They play, too, but they post a lot more on the net to get advice. Very few um, 'traditional' gamers do this. The most they do is discuss general topics.

The reason you seem to think the GW community is full of statistic obsessed tournament players is caused by this. Basically, signal from what you call traditional gamers is being drowed out simply because they don't discuss things as much outside of whoever they play games with.

I beg to differ, those people do exist and they do post on Dakka. They are the people who are frustrated by the people who only want to power game and rules lawyers, rather than embracing the point of playing a game. They are the same people who are frustrated b the amount of work they put into their hobby, then see people come in with proxy armies, partially assembled armies, or unpainted minis.

None of these things are critical to the enjoyment of the game, but there are some of us, like my gaming group, who figure that the time wasted playing games-in-a-bottle and mathhammering the stats could have been spent in painting, modelling, and (gasp!) actual game play.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:They are the same people who are frustrated b the amount of work they put into their hobby, then see people come in with proxy armies, partially assembled armies, or unpainted minis.

See, I'm what you guys are classing as a 'traditional gamer', but I've got no problem with these, to an extent. My brother and I, and one of my friends, take a lot of time and put effort into painting out armies, but out other friends don't, and we don't hold it against them. I mean, I draw the line when the Ultramarines player says 'that base with legs and a plasmagun is that squads meltagun guy', but I don't hold unpainted armies or partially assembled units against anyone. I personally use partially assembled units if I'm having a game before a unit is finished, since I paint models without arms, then paint the arms and atatch them later. I have a friend who just doesn't have the time to sit there and paint, since he works full time and has 3 kids. But if there's an effort to get stuff done even at a snails pace, I don't mind. As long as they're not like that for years.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I beg to differ, those people do exist and they do post on Dakka. They are the people who are frustrated by the people who only want to power game and rules lawyers, rather than embracing the point of playing a game. They are the same people who are frustrated b the amount of work they put into their hobby, then see people come in with proxy armies, partially assembled armies, or unpainted minis.

None of these things are critical to the enjoyment of the game, but there are some of us, like my gaming group, who figure that the time wasted playing games-in-a-bottle and mathhammering the stats could have been spent in painting, modelling, and (gasp!) actual game play.

Dude, I could not agree more. I have been at this hobby for nearly 20 years now, on and off. And I can honestly say that I'm much more of a beer and pretzel gamer than a stat obsessed math's guy.

Consequently I enjoy the game that much more. I play regularly at my local GW and with my bro at my flat. And out of those two I always have more fun at Home.

The rules lawyers and math's dudes can really put newbies off, with their constant picking and insistence on reading and re-reading every little thing. I really need to reiterate myself here: it's a hobby, please please please don't take it too seriously peeps, you end ruining the game for the rest of us who are more than happy to let little rules slips go.

And to all you WAAC guys out there, keep it at the tournaments. Do not bring it into your FLGS or GW. Nothing ruins a game quicker.
Thankyou.

People play, and enjoy, the hobby for a multitude of reasons.

Aren't you a little presumptuous to assume that somehow you and your ideals are those of a "traditional gamer"?

Troll thread.

I really liked reading this actually, I havent played one match yet but im preping up and making and army and it's cool to know im not going to get drilled about the rules over and over and over again. I like knowing that there are paople willing to let things slide.

It all depends on what everyone considers a traditional gamer. Gamers come in all sizes and styles. I enjoy the role playing aspects of the game. I like the warhammer 40k universe and the fluff of it. I also have decided I want to play in a few tournaments and enjoy all the aspects of the hobby. does that mean when i am down at the flgs that I can't enjoy playing with custom rules or variations? I don't think one has anything to do with the other.

What I would like to see more of is people running campaigns and crafting story's around the game. It is a war game but it doesn't have to be all about winning at tournaments. Can't we have a competitive environment mixed with the more enjoyable aspects of classic gaming? I am fairly new to the hobby only having started painting and collecting 40k last year/ So maybe it is naive of me to think that a role player and a war gamer can sit down and enjoy a fun narrative game with the rule set to help facilitate the battle.

Now when I do go to a tournament I am going to be playing more competitively and with a mathhammered list. I don't have issues with other people playing less competitively if they want to but I understand I am walking into a completive environment. I have only played in one tournament and it was enjoyable. Did I win some big prize no. Was I hoping I would sure but it isn't about taking home the big prize for all of us. Some people want to go have three or four good games and see how well they can do. I for one don't think you can't be a classic role playing gamer and enjoy yourself in this hobby. The novels and forge world books are great aspects to the game and add depth for me. The in depth and detail on some of the write ups just add to the enjoyment. I love seeing well painted models fighting against other well painted models.

I am really putting effort into learning to paint. For one I enjoy watching my painted guys tell the story of the battle as I role dice to see the outcome. It adds to the flavor of the game if the guy across from me also has his models painted I will enjoy the game more. Do I want to look across and see a all primer army not really. I want to see the battle play out like a story and having a well painted army crafts that narrative better for me.

So to finish my rambling I think there are classic gamers out there. I would like to think of myself as one

My way of playing is better than yours. This is an objective fact. Your way of approaching a hobby makes you morally defunct and I wouldn't be surprised if you turned out to be the next Fritzl, because anyone who would like to play a game the way you do is clearly one step away from molesting a child.

For anyone unfamiliar with the concept of sarcasm or irony, the above post is entirely composed of it. Please be sure not to make the mistake of believe it is sincere. It is instead an ironic statement about how judging others and condemning them as bad people for their differing way of enjoying a game is entirely inappropriate and rude.

Flaming other posters is never appropriate.

you MIGHT be jumping to conclusions.


I sense a slight sarcastic bend to Corrode's post, but, irregardless, it was inappropriate.

Isn't this like calling someone "normal" when you can't really define 'normal" in the first place??
Its just the gaming environment you "grew up" in. I started in a play for the fun and play till the end kinda game group. Then different people started showing up, and these guys had more fun "tooling" their lists out, and it sparked a more competitive nature in some of us, and we rose to the challenge. Before I moved, we had a good mix of players that can play competitive tooled tournament lists or just for fun on a friday night list. Because both side had to adapt to the other.... this might be a great argument for evolution of a gamer. Basically it worked out to where everyone had two or three lists ready to go on any given night, a tooled list and a fun list, so depending on who showed up and what they felt like playing everyone had a list to play. So, i guess this makes us...... gamers.
end 2 cents.

Grey Templar wrote:you MIGHT be jumping to conclusions.


I sense a slight sarcastic bend to Corrode's post, but, irregardless, it was inappropriate.

Slight as in Ben Nevis is a slight bump, yeah. I dunno, sometimes it seems like this kind of thread attributes for about 50% of the 40K forum world. We might as well get straight into the inevitable ad hominem brutality right from the start.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:And to all you WAAC guys out there, keep it at the tournaments. Do not bring it into your FLGS or GW. Nothing ruins a game quicker.
Thankyou.

To all you hobby nazis out there who don't know what WAAC means and throw it around because it makes them feel superior, keep your "better than thou" and "holier than thou" attitute at home. Do not bring it to your FLGS or GW. Do not bring it into community discussion on a 40k forum. Nothing ruins a game or a thread faster.

Oh...I'm too late again.

The problem I have with this thread, whilst I agree with some of what the OP is saying, is that he has started with the assumption that there is a right way and a wrong way to participate in the hobby.

Personally, I like painted, WYSIWYG armies and I like a friendly laid back environment. However, I also like hard lists and well-fought game following the rules tightly. These things are not mutually incompatible.

The problem is one of expectations. If everyone is playing low-power lists then that's what you're expected to bring but if everyone is playing full-on then don't bring a weak list and complain about it. The exact same applies to painting and WYSIWYG standards.

Dashofpepper wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:And to all you WAAC guys out there, keep it at the tournaments. Do not bring it into your FLGS or GW. Nothing ruins a game quicker.
Thankyou.

To all you hobby nazis out there who don't know what WAAC means and throw it around because it makes them feel superior, keep your "better than thou" and "holier than thou" attitute at home. Do not bring it to your FLGS or GW. Do not bring it into community discussion on a 40k forum. Nothing ruins a game or a thread faster.

Oh...I'm too late again.

You weren't, really, you were right in there with a well reasoned response. It just didn't work, is all.

Ahhh Dash, I missed you! I don't use the term WAAC to feel superior. It's just there is a time and place for that kind of game. And a quick 1500pts knockabout is not it!

And if my opinion upsets you then maybe you should start throwing around the sort of disgusting comparisons that Corrode just made to make yourself heard.

Thou I respect you as a tournament player and have no doubt that you are very good at what you do, there is no need to bring that 'must win must win' attitude to every game.

Sometimes it's more fun just to rock up and play, bollocks to the rules, just have a good time.
And if you can't see that then I pity you.......

Do you know what I hate? When people enjoy things for different reasons than me.

I mean, I don't run into them, or have to interact with them. And all of the people I hang out with like things for the appropriate reasons and enjoy them in the appropriate way.

But just the though that there are people out there enjoying something for the wrong reasons, and in a wrong way... it makes me sick.

Polonius wrote:Do you know what I hate? When people enjoy things for different reasons than me.

I mean, I don't run into them, or have to interact with them. And all of the people I hang out with like things for the appropriate reasons and enjoy them in the appropriate way.

But just the though that there are people out there enjoying something for the wrong reasons, and in a wrong way... it makes me sick.

HOW DARE PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGG!

Polonius wrote:Do you know what I hate? When people enjoy things for different reasons than me.
I mean, I don't run into them, or have to interact with them. And all of the people I hang out with like things for the appropriate reasons and enjoy them in the appropriate way.
But just the though that there are people out there enjoying something for the wrong reasons, and in a wrong way... it makes me sick.

Regardless, this argument is pointless and counterproductive. People are always going to have differing opinions. Tis what makes the world go round.
If you can't post them and let other people know them how are we ever going to grow as people?
And if you had even bothered to read my earlier posts i was making that exact point. The win at all costs attitude is necessary, if not essential at tournaments, and if that's how you get your rocks off then all well and good. But really, sometimes it's better to just play the game for the games sake and not yours.

Can't we all just get along?!

Project2501 wrote:Troll thread.

This is online discussion, not what a ugly thing uses to sew.


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The guy who start this thread pays the game what my club conisders the right way to play warhammer.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Regardless, this argument is pointless and counterproductive. People are always going to have differing opinions. Tis what makes the world go round.
If you can't post them and let other people know them how are we ever going to grow as people?
And if you had even bothered to read my earlier posts i was making that exact point. The win at all costs attitude is necessary, if not essential at tournaments, and if that's how you get your rocks off then all well and good. But really, sometimes it's better to just play the game for the games sake and not yours.
Can't we all just get along?!

Not while you're still making assumptions that one way is better or more appropriate than the others.

The only standard that matters is the standard held to by the community within which you play. I'm fortunate to play at a club where the standard of play is extremely high - I've never seen anyone there complain of a list being too-powerful, for example, and painted + WYSIWYG is the default standard.

In the past I've played at clubs where the standard of play was lower and I took suitable lists.


Also, if by WAAC attitude you mean "be a rules lawyer and a git" then it's not appropriate anywhere, even at tournaments. If, on the other hand, you mean "take good lists and follow the rules" then I would say that can be appropriate anywhere, providing that it's what everyone is expecting.

Let's drop the fight, okay?

Props also to Polonius who encapsulated my feelings on this exactly.

Obviously there isn't a 'traditional gamer' much like there isn't a traditional human...
Everyone is different.
Some people want to win.
Some people want to win and be a d**k about it.
Some people simply want to enjoy all aspects o the hobby.
Some people want to enjoy all aspects of the hobby and be a d**k about it.
Basically do what you want but don't force others to or look down on them if they don't do the same as you.

Corrode wrote:Props also to Polonius who encapsulated my feelings on this exactly.

But note that I could be even more mocking, while not being needlessly offensive.

Wow, you mean..... You.... You were not serious!



Your grasp of sarcasm is just off the scale Corrode!
But to compare someone to Josef Fritzl and a child molester is just not funny. I ...apparently think that two wrongs make a right.

Sarcasm is all fine and dandy, but there are things that just should not be said. Especially to people you have never met, and are never going to meet. Lucky them.

Do your parents know how you talk to people? They would be ashamed.....lol

I'm not sure there are things that shouldn't be said. I mean, comparing Pol Pot to Hitler is at least somewhat acceptable, right?

Rather, there are appropriate levels of reaction. It's the old don't bring a gun to knife fight rule.

Luna Dragon wrote:

Project2501 wrote:Troll thread.

This is online discussion, not what a ugly thing uses to sew.


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The guy who start this thread pays the game what my club conisders the right way to play warhammer.

Trolling hard.

Polonius wrote:I'm not sure there are things that shouldn't be said. I mean, comparing Pol Pot to Hitler is at least somewhat acceptable, right?

Rather, there are appropriate levels of reaction. It's the old don't bring a gun to knife fight rule.

With the exception that bringing a gun to a knife fight would make you win the fight. Here? Well. No-one wins.

Polonius, I agree with you. But if someone goes through life thinking it's ok to compare a complete stranger to one the sickest individuals of our time......well, he needs to be told that sort of the thing is the equivalent of a social A-Bomb.......

Wether that comparison was made in jest or not, it's still wrong.

Peace.

I wasn't disagreeing with the judgement that his comment was inappropriate. Calling it a social A-bomb is a bit much, but I have a streak of black humor a mile wide myself.

I don't like setting things off limits for discussion, or even comparison. But you don't need to use the biggest club in your bag every time.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Wether that comparison was made in jest or not, it's still wrong.

And, yet again, you assume that your standard is the only correct one.

I thought it was pretty funny.

(also, you missed the point - by making an utterly ridiculous, over-the-top comparison it made it clear that it was humour. If he'd compared the OP to someone much less offensive then it could have been taken seriously)

I have no problem with Corrode's comment. But then, I am scum.

Scott-S6 wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Wether that comparison was made in jest or not, it's still wrong.

And, yet again, you assume that your standard is the only correct one.

Indeed.

It was someone using dark humor to get a rise out of someone and it succeeded wondrously.

In my job you need black humour. It's essential. I just feel a bit sad because it's probably the most inappropriate thing ive seen on this Forum.

And people like Scotty boy there thinks it's funny......

If you can't cope with other people's opinions then s**t or get off the pot I guess.

And this all came about because of some kids idea of sarcasm. I weep for the future....


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Clearly some people have been quite offended by all this. What would be nice is if both parties were to offer an apology and build bridges, maybe moderating their stances a little to meet a middle ground.

It would be the first time I've ever seen it happen. I'd write to the BBC.

Project2501 wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

Project2501 wrote:Troll thread.

This is online discussion, not what a ugly thing uses to sew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The guy who start this thread pays the game what my club conisders the right way to play warhammer.

Trolling hard.

Uhh, are you alright.

htj wrote:Clearly some people have been quite offended by all this. What would be nice is if both parties were to offer an apology and build bridges, maybe moderating their stances a little to meet a middle ground

Instead of being dragged into this dakka mud slinging/wrestling match that is (as always) too lacking of estrogen to be even remotely attractive... I'm going to try to contribute

Mal the Wolf wrote: I must have lucked out because my shop and friends still play the way its supposed ta. No proxies, no i cant paint, no tool(overpowered or broke) lists. Just wysiwyg fun, Take it from me this is the way to play. No my rolls sucked or i could have won if. Some of my favorite moments came in the midst of a lose. Like a Fire Warrior beating a ork in cc and living!! Then wounding a nob and dying( special paint job for that). Play win lose or draw till the end, no conceding. How bout this fun: Loseing badly , bring it back at the end. On 6 there was Gazgul? and one Gun drone left on the table. We had more fun from there out than the rest of the game( we threw turns out of the equation.

To end: There is too much fun to be had in the gray area inbetween winning or loseing to worry about what your record is


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by the way paint ur army, good or not its yours

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also dont be a strickler on some rules. If some one forgets a deep strike let them still have it. No biggie you want to win with them at full force. A couple rules should stay like failed assaults, terrain stuff, but once again let stuff slide. Much better than tourney play

I disagree that this is the "best" way to play. For starters, rules requiring all models to be painted, no proxies whatsoever, and no overpowered lists is extremely stifling and makes your group appear elitist and not welcoming of new players.

I'm sure it doesn't seem like this to you- else why would you even have posted! But lets go through this here. To a new player- starting Warhammer 40K is a daunting prospect. You've got 50 dollar tanks, 30 dollar transports, and 30 dollars for ~10 infantry models.

Lets take a common situation, a player is looking to expand his army, but is unsure as to whether it will be worth the ~100 dollar investment for the squad + transport. You mean to tell me that you wouldn't let him proxy that unit- because its not WYSIWYG? I mean lets be fair here, people aren't made of money, and an attitude like this severely punishes people not as well established as you.

[Ninja Edited ]Also a blanket ban on "overpowered" lists is very difficult to enforce. Whats over powered? How do you define it? No razor spam period? No Mech Eldar period? How broad / narrow do you make this determination?

I agree that warhammer can and should be fun. The way to achieve that is through having a good attitude, and not by creating arbitrary rules that are unfair to new players and assumes that everybody has fully painted armies or tons of money + free time. Warhammer shouldn't just be a bunch of dusty old men talking about the good old days- I get enough of that at lawschool- the hobby, and player groups need to be open to new ideas and new players.

EDIT: I'd also like to say that I have never understood people's problem with forfeiting. If a game is over, there is no point dragging it on. Not everybody enjoys playing through the full game to the bitter bitter end when the game is clearly over after turn 3. Forcing these players to keep going isn't fair to them, and if they want to forfeit let them. Its potentially a waste of everybody's time to keep spending time playing a game that's already over- especially when you could be playing a new and exciting game filled with possibilities instead!

akaean wrote:Also a blanket ban on "overpowered" lists is very difficult to enforce? Whats over powered? How do you define it? Its just too difficult to equalize

Generally it means no lists that the guy in the group who shouts loudest isn't able to beat.

Personally, I'm of the opinion a legal list is a legal list. End. Of. Story.

Scott-S6 wrote:
Personally, I'm of the opinion a legal list is a legal list. End. Of. Story.

Agreed.

I used to be one of those who cried Cheese!(way back in the earliest days of 3rd ed, ironic, since I'd played 2nd ed), until I started playing in multiple groups and realized that cheese is a BS concept based purely on how your group plays.

Im just posting this because I want there to be some clarity on what he is saying. This is just my interpretation of what he was trying to say. I know Mal, I worked at the game shop where he first started playing. He is honestly one of the most "chill" dudes I know. What I mean by that is he always had a smile on his face, was always willing to help new players out, and never really has a word to say negatively about someone. I know the group of players he plays with, or at least I did (I moved a two hours away about a year ago) and they are pretty decent gamers. There are both types of gamer BUT most of them can turn it off and on. The WAAC guys can play friendly games (well most of them could... I couldn't ) and the hobby guys can step it up if you want a stiff competition. There was never any hate amongst the two groups. KrakKirby came down to one of the stores for Ardboyz last year and Im sure he can attest to the fact that most of us were pretty decent guys. (Of course he won )

I think what Mal was trying to say wasn't meant as inflammatory, but more along the lines of
Hey guys, if you are taking the game TOO seriously, chill out and realize its just a game that probably wont be remembered a hundred years from now. You can play serious, but don't be a butt head about it.

FYI Dash of Pep- I loved your article on tournament preparation.

I'd like to point out that in these discussions, what is lost is that the lowest common denominator wins out.


Consider that, if two people meet for a game, and one person enjoys a game with WYSIWYG painted models, and the other doesn't mind proxies at all, then only the person playing with proxies will be satisfied with the game.

In a similar vein, if one person enjoys a casual game, and another prefers to play with the most recent internet power list, the person who would rather play more casually has to either lose every game, or adjust their game to that of the more competitive player.

It's not just saying 'why don't you let other people enjoy the hobby the way they like', because at its core, this is a social activity, and like any social activity, it is governed by rules, written or otherwise, that are accepted by all those who participate.

For years, one of the unwritten rules of war-gaming was that you played with WYSIWYG painted models. That's just how it has been done. People who "didn't like to paint" either recognized that this wasn't the hobby for them, or got their models painted, by themselves or by commission, because it was a requirement of the social group.

Those who claim this is unfair, and why should they have to paint their models, need to realize that, to the same extent that someone else is making you do something you don't want to do, you're forcing the same situation on them by expecting them to play against unpainted models.

One group of people are going to be unhappy. Those who believe that wargaming includes painted models will be unhappy if unpainted models are allowed. Those who believe that painted models aren't a necessity will be unhappy if they're forced to paint their models. Why should the unhappy group be the group that are following the traditional practices of wargaming, and that are putting forth more of an effort?

I don't -like- playing against net-lists. I don't -like- playing against Space Wolves. But in agreeing to participate in a social activity, I accept that there is a possibility that I might have to do these things. You don't -like- to paint... but your opponent doesn't -like- to play against unpainted armies, so show them some respect and put forth the effort to be part of the community.

purplefood wrote:Obviously there isn't a 'traditional gamer' much like there isn't a traditional human...
Everyone is different.
Some people want to win.
Some people want to win and be a d**k about it.
Some people simply want to enjoy all aspects o the hobby.
Some people want to enjoy all aspects of the hobby and be a d**k about it.
Basically do what you want but don't force others to or look down on them if they don't do the same as you.

Pretty much true. The only trait shared by all "traditional" gamers is that they play games.

I personally don't care how people build their armies, or if they paint, or even proxy cardboard cutouts. If somebody is enjoyable to play with, I'll play with them. If somebody wants to play a "wouldn't it be cool if we had this special rule" game, that's fine, as long as it's stated before the game starts (and we both get to throw in our 0.02).

If somebody wants to play a "strictly by the rules" game (which is the norm), that's fine too - provided that the other player knows the rules and there is a rulebook nearby to consult. If they don't know the rules, I expect that I can point to a rule in the rulebook and provide a reasonable argument without being labeled a "rules lawyer".

Of course, if someone is a pain in the ass, I'm not going to want to play with them even if they've got the most "balanced", beautifully-painted non-proxied, wonderfully-converted WYSIWYG army in existence.

I think that having fun is good, but having fun at the expense of someone else isn't. I can and do look down on people who have their fun by bullying others, cheating (on purpose - accidents and misunderstandings aren't cheating), and otherwise making the experience unenjoyable for the other people around.

--

You'll notice that I managed to give some pretty strong stances and opinions without actually telling anyone that they're doing something right or wrong - there is no globally "correct" way to act. Do whatever you want, as long as the people you play with enjoy playing with you.

Here's how I read the original post:

"Hi guys, here are the things that I like about gaming: (insert stuff here). Do any of you guys like the same stuff? Because my gaming group is kinda small and it's feeling lonely over here - I feel that we are a dying breed." - of course, he probably should've also added
"By the way, I live in (insert city here). If you enjoy the same kind of stuff, maybe we can get together and have a friendly game or five"

LOL He lives in Charleston WV.

Though I think the max number of players we have had at any of our big tournaments in the state is something like 40ish
So I guess we arent to big

Redbeard wrote:
For years, one of the unwritten rules of war-gaming was that you played with WYSIWYG painted models. That's just how it has been done. People who "didn't like to paint" either recognized that this wasn't the hobby for them, or got their models painted, by themselves or by commission, because it was a requirement of the social group.

Maybe in your area, but not across the board. There's never been that sort of un-written rule in any place I've played(4-5 different Louisiana stores, 2 Mississippi stores, couple different areas in California, and several different groups in Colorado). Unless that rule stopped existing pre-'95(when I started playing).

Redbeard wrote:One group of people are going to be unhappy. Those who believe that wargaming includes painted models will be unhappy if unpainted models are allowed. Those who believe that painted models aren't a necessity will be unhappy if they're forced to paint their models. Why should the unhappy group be the group that are following the traditional practices of wargaming, and that are putting forth more of an effort?

I was in agreement with you until here.

If you go to play in an environment where not painting is the norm, that becomes the de facto standard. The traditional practices of wargaming are neither here nor there.

Does that mean you have to just put up with it? No, but the best way to change it is by example.

The problem I have, and this is the reason I visit my local store as little as possible, is the elitist, condesending, patronising and generally unsociable people who inhabit the place.

I've tried on several occasions to go down and get to know some of the people but they are just not friendly to new players and tend to be unhelpful (Oh, you play THAT army do you? pfft, good luck), demeaning (Have you not looked at any painting tutorials?) and generally off-putting.

All of my games have been with friends and family in my own home or my mates flat. I've met some really nice staff but I've also met some really fake staff who are interested as far as you buying something and then they don't much care unless you want to buy more.

I have met some nicer people but they are the ones who have options other than the store which are too far away for me and they tend not to visit the store very often.

Its a very negative and very cynical outlook of GW and the fanbase I've had contact with but I can only talk about my experiences.

Coming here and having a pretty good experience so far has been very encouraging for me and tells me that there are loads more helpful, supportive and friendly gamers out there which has given me hope!

I personally don't understand what proxies and paint jobs have to do with being a 'traditional' gamer.

Many of the gamers that come up to the local shop love to play 40k and have a good time like the rest of us. I personally know many of these folks and the game miniatures are simply too costly for some. Proxies, therefore, are very common and allowances are made.

With the economic situation where I live fairly desperate for most people. I find I'm either providing the actual figures, services to these folks by painting figures for them, or just not giving them too much grief about proxying.

Uhlan wrote:With the economic situation where I live fairly desperate for most people

Sorry mate but I had a little bit of a chuckle when I had a look at your location.


On a more serious note the only way I've managed to build what I have of my army is by trawling ebay and having people buy me stuff from there in return for favours or as gifts for birthdays and such. It's a bloody expensive hobby(habbit).

It is an expensive hobby. That's why it's a hobby and not just a game. Seriously, anyone who wants to prove their superiority at toy soldiers or military tactics would be better off playing Advanced Squad Leader. You can pick up ASL for a fraction of the cost of a GW army, it's a far superior (award-winning) ruleset, and there's no expectation of painting or modelling anything.

Miniature wargames are not pure games in the way that board games, or card games are. Sure, you can treat them as such, but then you end up wondering why you just dropped a grand on a case of plastic army men...

I simply cannot understand anyone who both complains about the price of this hobby and simultaneously makes the claim that they don't like painting the models. Like, can you really not find an alternative game that is both cheaper and doesn't require painting?

Redbeard wrote:I simply cannot understand anyone who both complains about the price of this hobby and simultaneously makes the claim that they don't like painting the models. Like, can you really not find an alternative game that is both cheaper and doesn't require painting?

Not with a large, global fan base, a rich back story, and readily available models.

It's just like anything else. How many people really prefer D&D to another system, and how many people just started playing what their group played?

Redbeard wrote:I simply cannot understand anyone who both complains about the price of this hobby and simultaneously makes the claim that they don't like painting the models. Like, can you really not find an alternative game that is both cheaper and doesn't require painting?

That's because you seem to buy into the whole "painting, playing, and collecting are one hobby" thing that GW puts forward. Not everyone sees all 3 as The Hobby. For some, the hobby is collecting, for some collecting and playing, for some collecting and painting. Maybe they don't feel like finding an alternative game because they like the models better or they like the fluff better.

Also, what Polonius said.

I wasn't complaining....ok, I was, but it's just idle ribbing tbh.

I'm also a PC gamer so I really can't complain about how much hobbies cost!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bit more on topic - It is very off-putting if you are unlucky enough to bump in to the super competitive unsociable gamers like I have when the hobby is so expensive.

dave_salmon wrote:

Uhlan wrote:With the economic situation where I live fairly desperate for most people

Sorry mate but I had a little bit of a chuckle when I had a look at your location.


On a more serious note the only way I've managed to build what I have of my army is by trawling ebay and having people buy me stuff from there in return for favours or as gifts for birthdays and such. It's a bloody expensive hobby(habbit).

You're the first person to ever notice that... and yeah, I chuckled as well after I thought about it.

Eye of Terra and Eye of Terror are pronounced the same where I live. So, the meanings are numerous.

haha need to clarify, I built my own PC for gaming and am currently planning a build for summer time....hence the hobby bit.


@Uhlan - OK I had a double chuckle. I suppose this is the place to let the nerd in me frolic!






Edited for context and spelling

Platuan4th wrote:
That's because you seem to buy into the whole "painting, playing, and collecting are one hobby" thing that GW puts forward.

Actually, I don't think GW puts that forward - they're on a 'four pillars' thing, where gaming, painting, modelling, and collecting are all seen as independent reasons to buy their stuff.

But I agree that painting, playing and collecting are the more traditional aspects of miniature wargaming, and that miniature wargaming (not GW wargaming) has typically considered all three to be requirements. You'll never see a historicals player asking why he can't proxy his spartans as romans or why he has to paint them...

In that way, GW has actively moved away from the traditional approach to wargaming. They're attempting to be more inclusive, by encouraging people to buy buy buy and just play, and not to worry about painting. Know why? Cause it sells more. If you don't need to paint things, you can buy more and when the next army comes out, it doesn't matter that the ones you already have aren't painted, you can just buy the new ones anyway.

Maybe they don't feel like finding an alternative game because they like the models better or they like the fluff better.

Fluff - maybe. Do you really believe that people who are complaining about the price of GW models, while actively advocating using proxies, could care less what the models look like? If you're using an unpainted space marine to stand in as a guardsman, does the fact that the marine has a decent sculpt matter at all? It probably still has mold lines and an undrilled bolter barrel.

I see no reason why you should'nt play to win, if you can't be bothered to play to the best of your ability then I see that as an insult to the other player.
I understand sometimes that perhaps a more experienced gamer might go a little easy on a newbie, but if both players are trying their best to win then you end up with a way more satisfying game all around.
Of course, there is a difference between playing to win and winning at all costs.
There may or may not be a "right way" to play the game, but it must be remembered that our hobby is by necessity a social one, if you just want to destroy faceless enemies then get an xbox.
I have only been in-hobby for 4 or so years, but I have never regretted losing to someone who was better or luckier or whatever, but there is nothing worse than a bad opponent.
I would rather lose to a player who is happy to win but still feel like I got something out of the game than to utterly smash an opponent but to demean myself by being a complete donkey-cave.
Again, tournement play may be different but I've never played a tournement so I'm not placed to judge on that one.
Ok, rant over.

Some of the comments so far have been discouraging but the comments that have been more positive and (to me) most encouraging make me wonder where in the UK the Limies on here are from? - I'm a Manc btw despite what my flag says (I'll get around to messaging a mod soon!)

"Oh and, I'm new: 'Donkey-cave'?" - Never mind, I made the mistake of googling it...







Sooo many edits

The thing that gets me is that nevermind "my way is the best way" that everyone has only one way.

- I like campaign & narrative-driven games
- I like tournament, competitive games (these are perhaps my favourite these days)
- I like casual, beer & pretzel games with my mates
- I like casual games with my mates playing uber-hard lists in preparation for a tournament
- Sometimes I field pure WYSIWYG, fully painted armies (usually at tournaments)
- Sometimes I field entirely unpainted with many proxies (usually at a mate's house testing out a new army before I buy/paint it)

If you only enjoy one way of playing the game fair enough. But not only is it not the only way but not everyone fits firmly in either camp.

Ah, I'm from Wiltshire myself.
Sorry about "donkey-cave", first time I used that actually.

Redbeard wrote:
Actually, I don't think GW puts that forward - they're on a 'four pillars' thing, where gaming, painting, modelling, and collecting are all seen as independent reasons to buy their stuff.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree based on the amount of times I've seen them(GW) refer to it as The Hobby(the capitals are theirs not mine) or the GW Hobby, but I think that's an argument for another entirely different thread.

haha don't worry, I knew donkey-cave as something else any way.

I'd quite like to find somewhere to play in Manchester that isn't GW Arndale or Trafford center or Fan boy 3 but all the clubs seem to be out of my reach..

Not in Manchester but the North-west Gaming Centre is in Stockport isn't it? 10 minutes on the train from Piccadilly if I remember right.

What is 'traditional' gaming anyway? There have always been overly competitive sorts and dicks in the game. This is a geek sport, it attracts all sorts including the obsessives, weirdos and some people will do anything to win at the expense of anyone else's fun.

This talk of 'traditional' gaming and modelling is harking back to a time that didn't exist. One of the earliest examples of military modelling is that of the battle of Waterloo which was presented for public display. This was fine until it was found to be too accurate, it portrayed an accurate proportion of german troops in the forces opposing the French army. This upset the Duke of Wellington and others who had played down the contribution of the Germans, it was an embarrassment and the modeller was required to alter the scene to almost entirely remove them. Dickishness of the highest form from our Duke there.

If 'traditional' wargaming is what some would describe it's not warhammer, it's histrorical gaming involving collossal armies that take half a day to move a few inches. This fast paced Warhammer is utterly alien by comparison.

I don't see painting models as 'being traditional' . Painting models is painting models, for me a wargames army needs to be painted to be worthy of the battle field. Painting models isn't traditional as such, for a long time it was common sense due to the lead content if figures, but also because the army spent days hardly moving and took up an intire room the game was far more about the spectacle the the result of the game. It was more like historical reinactment with little men than a game like 40K is today, if it didn't look nice there was very little else.

I'd probably be described as a HAAC player, the creative hobby side of it is hugely important to making a game look good. If rules are silly, I'll alter or ignore them so the game makes more sense. I'll clash with the sort of person who wants to use the exact rules in the book to win if it seems a contrary to some sort of internal logic in the game or what feels right. I also think all figures should be painted because it looks good. If you see gaming as just gaming then perhaps you are not bothered by painting, but I thing games look sad and boring unless figures are painted and scenery looks good.

Redbeard wrote:
I don't -like- playing against net-lists. I don't -like- playing against Space Wolves. But in agreeing to participate in a social activity, I accept that there is a possibility that I might have to do these things. You don't -like- to paint... but your opponent doesn't -like- to play against unpainted armies, so show them some respect and put forth the effort to be part of the community.

This . . . Always keep in mind the community you are about to enter. If you bring a WAAC list to a local habby store and people get upset and don't want to play you, its all on you. If you bring an unpainted half made army to a tourney, prepare to get thrown out even if you payed for a plane ticket to get there.

Adapt to the community, don't expect people to adapt to you.

Guys, colour me embarrassed by my earlier mud slinging. It really HAS been a long day (12hr shift today!).
But I digress, back on topic. Surely it's possible to play a 'fluffy' yet very effective list?

And I agree that you should adapt to the group you are playing with. If you are playing against a group of hardcore tourney players then by all means throw together a kick ass, take you all on list.

If you are playing with your mates in a basement or garage with beer and pretzels etc, then feel free to set your own house rules.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I beg to differ, those people do exist and they do post on Dakka. They are the people who are frustrated by the people who only want to power game and rules lawyers, rather than embracing the point of playing a game. They are the same people who are frustrated b the amount of work they put into their hobby, then see people come in with proxy armies, partially assembled armies, or unpainted minis.

None of these things are critical to the enjoyment of the game, but there are some of us, like my gaming group, who figure that the time wasted playing games-in-a-bottle and mathhammering the stats could have been spent in painting, modelling, and (gasp!) actual game play.

I'm guilty of this.

Howard A Treesong wrote:What is 'traditional' gaming anyway? There have always been overly competitive sorts and dicks in the game. This is a geek sport, it attracts all sorts including the obsessives, weirdos and some people will do anything to win at the expense of anyone else's fun.

This talk of 'traditional' gaming and modelling is harking back to a time that didn't exist. One of the earliest examples of military modelling is that of the battle of Waterloo which was presented for public display. This was fine until it was found to be too accurate, it portrayed an accurate proportion of german troops in the forces opposing the French army. This upset the Duke of Wellington and others who had played down the contribution of the Germans, it was an embarrassment and the modeller was required to alter the scene to almost entirely remove them. Dickishness of the highest form from our Duke there.

If 'traditional' wargaming is what some would describe it's not warhammer, it's histrorical gaming involving collossal armies that take half a day to move a few inches. This fast paced Warhammer is utterly alien by comparison.

I don't see painting models as 'being traditional' . Painting models is painting models, for me a wargames army needs to be painted to be worthy of the battle field. Painting models isn't traditional as such, for a long time it was common sense due to the lead content if figures, but also because the army spent days hardly moving and took up an intire room the game was far more about the spectacle the the result of the game. It was more like historical reinactment with little men than a game like 40K is today, if it didn't look nice there was very little else.

I'd probably be described as a HAAC player, the creative hobby side of it is hugely important to making a game look good. If rules are silly, I'll alter or ignore them so the game makes more sense. I'll clash with the sort of person who wants to use the exact rules in the book to win if it seems a contrary to some sort of internal logic in the game or what feels right. I also think all figures should be painted because it looks good. If you see gaming as just gaming then perhaps you are not bothered by painting, but I thing games look sad and boring unless figures are painted and scenery looks good.

I think many of us have been confused by the OP's use of the term Traditional Gamer. As this means something very different to those of us who do more than 40k.

It does niggle me when armies aren't painted, I do have to admit.

I am guilty of playing with PARTIALLY unpainted models but it killed me to play my Smurfs unpainted one time and since then they have to have atleast the primary colour on them (I don't mean the base).

I've pretty much sworn off gaming until my Guard and DA Successors are done.

That is how much I hate playing with unpainted armies.

Kanluwen wrote:I've pretty much sworn off gaming until my Guard and DA Successors are done.

That is how much I hate playing with unpainted armies.

Paint faster, obviously.

Platuan4th wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I've pretty much sworn off gaming until my Guard and DA Successors are done.

That is how much I hate playing with unpainted armies.

Paint faster, obviously.

If only it were that simple.

My Guard are getting full conversions going on, extra leg plating and ammo bags, etc.

It's gonna be a fun project though.

Kanluwen wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I beg to differ, those people do exist and they do post on Dakka. They are the people who are frustrated by the people who only want to power game and rules lawyers, rather than embracing the point of playing a game. They are the same people who are frustrated b the amount of work they put into their hobby, then see people come in with proxy armies, partially assembled armies, or unpainted minis.

None of these things are critical to the enjoyment of the game, but there are some of us, like my gaming group, who figure that the time wasted playing games-in-a-bottle and mathhammering the stats could have been spent in painting, modelling, and (gasp!) actual game play.

I'm guilty of this.

Same...
Although it's only really the mathhammering i don't understand that much...

As I have said before in other threads I'm very greatful I game with a bunch of mature folks set on having a good time.

We campaignstoryhammer as often as possible.

dave_salmon wrote:I'm a Manc btw despite what my flag says (I'll get around to messaging a mod soon!)

Fixed. You'll need to log out and log back in, and it may take a day or two to propagate through the system and show properly.

Mannahnin wrote:

dave_salmon wrote:I'm a Manc btw despite what my flag says (I'll get around to messaging a mod soon!)

Fixed. You'll need to log out and log back in, and it may take a day or two to propagate through the system and show properly.

Brilliant! Thank you! The more time I spend here the more I like the forum!


The problem with wanting everything painted before I play is that I've now got 10 destroyers, 10 immortals, 38 warriors, 1 monolith, 6 scarab bases, 4 pariahs, 1 lord and a night bringer to paint.....it's going to kill me.

Edit: Pariads? Wut...

One thing you can do is basecoat everything very quickly. If you're going the traditional necron metal, spray everything boltgun metal and paint the bases green (or brown, or whatever). Army painted. Then you can go back a unit at a time, ink and highlight them, pick out details, base them properly, etc, etc. But this way has several advantages - after just an evening's work you'll have no more "bare plastic" to offend your eyes with (even the most rudimentary basecoat looks better than bare plastic!), and it gives you a sense of achievement. Then you've got the first stage done, you can pick up a unit and finish them properly just by grabbing a paintbrush, no need to muck around with sprays or whatever.

dave_salmon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

dave_salmon wrote:I'm a Manc btw despite what my flag says (I'll get around to messaging a mod soon!)

Fixed. You'll need to log out and log back in, and it may take a day or two to propagate through the system and show properly.

Brilliant! Thank you! The more time I spend here the more I like the forum!


The problem with wanting everything painted before I play is that I've now got 10 destroyers, 10 immortals, 38 warriors, 1 monolith, 6 scarab bases, 4 pariads, 1 lord and a night bringer to paint.....it's going to kill me.

I know the feeling, as I have a similar death note

9 destroyers, 2 monoliiths, 6 pariahs, 80 warriors,10 bases of scarabs for my Necrons

150 ork boyz, 30 nobs, 30 flash gitz, 6 kanz, 2 dredds, 9 trukks, 2 battlewagons, 20 lootas, 30 burnas, dozens of bikers and way too much other orky stuff before my orks are all painted.

I never take unpainted armies to tournaments though, and do those monthly, with different lists every time. That way my army gets painted bit by bit as soon as i have the list sorted, to get them done for next tournament

Lame thread with an OP that loves to put on his rose coloured glasses and pretend there weren't as many TFGs and everyone was "hardcore" niceguy 10 years ago in wargaming.

Its always btter to play for fun than try to kill everything.

Ascalam wrote:I never take unpainted armies to tournaments though, and do those monthly, with different lists every time. That way my army gets painted bit by bit as soon as i have the list sorted, to get them done for next tournament

Wait, this can't be right, haven't you heard that only WAAC jerks who don't paint their armies attend tournaments...

gh05tdemon wrote:Its always btter to play for fun than try to kill everything.

I find trying to kill everything often is a part of having fun...

Lord Inquisitor wrote:

Ascalam wrote:I never take unpainted armies to tournaments though, and do those monthly, with different lists every time. That way my army gets painted bit by bit as soon as i have the list sorted, to get them done for next tournament

Wait, this can't be right, haven't you heard that only WAAC jerks who don't paint their armies attend tournaments...

Ah, but I don't mind if I don't win the tournament It's a zen thing

I'm there for the good time, not the grand prize If I have a good time i've won, regardless

As long as I have a good time against several different armies it doesn't really matter to me where I place.

If i wind up against the same Blood Angels net list for all three games it damages my calm a tad, however I like variety in my enemies

Lord Inquisitor wrote:

Ascalam wrote:I never take unpainted armies to tournaments though, and do those monthly, with different lists every time. That way my army gets painted bit by bit as soon as i have the list sorted, to get them done for next tournament

Wait, this can't be right, haven't you heard that only WAAC jerks who don't paint their armies attend tournaments...

Impossible. With the exception of 'Ard Boyz, serious Tournaments require painting.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:But I digress, back on topic. Surely it's possible to play a 'fluffy' yet very effective list?

It absolutely is. There are plenty of lists that are fluffy and tough.

It can be a bit harder to put those lists together but it is certainly possible.

Some fluffy lists cannot be made tough, they just don't work on the table top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gh05tdemon wrote:Its always btter to play for fun than try to kill everything.

So you play 40K but you don't try to kill everything? You decide to leave some of the guys stuff alive? How does this improve the fun for you?

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Surely it's possible to play a 'fluffy' yet very effective list?

Yes, for varying values of fluffiness and effectiveness.

I cant belive this tread got so many reponses.
Rereading my post it does seem a tad eliteist and right and wrong ways to play. It was not supposed to.

I hope every gamer could read this thread just to see the varitey of ideas.
And yes traditional was probably the wrong word usage.
love ya mike cant wait ta play ya again.

Hey.
I know what you mean and I work full time and have a life. People at tournements won't give you anything at all. But sportmanship is the way forward specially with your mates.
Its a hobby for chill times. Not wanting to jump over the board and bash your oppopnent.(so spelt that wrong)
If you ever get too annoyed have a break.
Just live the dream and don't do blood angels.
The last bit was a joke and hope nobody gets upset. Peace