Got a question...

Coteaz can shoot at a unit arriving from reserves within 12" of him.

If a drop pod lands and a unit disembarks, what happens? Does his unit shoot at the drop pod only? At the dreadnought + the drop pod? While the dreadnought arrived from reserves within 12", he was embarked at the time.

*EDIT*

Also, if a servo-skull is within 6" of the unit that deep-struck, and the unit deep-striking is killed....is the servo-skull removed from play?

In the old version of this rule (mystics) you could choose which to shoot at, the disembarking unit or the pod. I wuld say follow that unless you want to house rule it to something else until the FAQ arrives.

And I would say the servo skull is removed from play. You can't shoot at something if it wasn't there, so as soon as the model is placed the servo skull would self destruct.

Based on the rule for the servo-skulls, I had assumed that they were destroyed as soon as the unit moved within six inches. Since the unit arrived before it was destroyed, I would say that the servo-skull is destroyed. Regarding the first part of the question, I too would be interested in everyone's interpretation; I haven't had that situation come up yet.

If a vehicle drove onto the board near Coteaz, he'd shoot at the vehicle. It's the same with the drop pod, except that the unit inside can't choose to stay inside. The unit arrives inside the vehicle, and you can't shoot at a unit inside a vehicle.

On the one hand; units arriving from reserve inside a deepstriking vehicle are deepstriking; this is plain as day in the Deepstrike rules.

On the other hand, those same units, are disembarking from a vehicle; they had already arrived from deepstrike when Coteaz would have been able to fire(course he may be able to take out the pod before they get out, not that that would do anything to the unit other than possible damage from an "explodes" result).

Drop pods works no different than, say, a landraider deep striking and the exact same squad disembarking voluntarily. You may only shoot at the vehicle.

I would agree with only shooting at the vehicle and I think this would come down to a timing issue. I believe that once the drop pod hits the table then his ability would trigger. The squad would then disembark out of the drop pod.

However, to further confuse things, the latest rulebook FAQ states that models disembarking from a Drop Pod also count as Deep Striking.

However, to further confuse things, the latest rulebook FAQ states that models disembarking from a Drop Pod also count as Deep Striking.

I remember reading that too. Without any other information, it would seem to indicate that you'd be free to fire at both, but...

In the old version of this rule (mystics) you could choose which to shoot at, the disembarking unit or the pod. I wuld say follow that unless you want to house rule it to something else until the FAQ arrives.

Seems like a reasonable middle ground, if GW was interested in achieving such. Granted, that ruling was with the specific regard to Mystics and shouldn't automatically be assumed to be GW's position on a new codex.

It has always been that way, the FAQ just clarified it as some were confused; and I stated as such in my original post.

However, while they are arriving via deepstrike(and as such cannot assault out of vehicles with assault ramps nor open topped vehicles), they are doing such inside a vehicle as transported cargo, when they disembark, they are simply disembarking in the movement phase(which is an exemption clearly written into the deepstrike rules to deepstriking units not being allowed to move any further).

Exactly. This is no different from a DE Raider deep striking and the squad disembarking. The squad DID deep strike, but that was before they disembarked, so they couldn't have been a valid target.

The FAQ states that the unit in the transport counts as arriving by deep strike
Coteaz's rule states that he may shoot at units arriving from reserve within his line of sight. And this ability May be used multiple times.
If the unit came from reserves this turn and the conditions for coteaz's rules are fulfilled, then it seems that he would be able to take shots at both.

Another example, if you drove a rhino in from reserve fulfilling the conditions for Coteaz, he would be able to shoot at it. If you were to then disembark the unit inside he would be able to shoot at them as they also arrived from reserve this turn.

When the unit arrived, they were inside the vehicle. You can't shoot at a unit inside a vehicle.

After the unit arrives, the player can then choose to disembark. In the case of drop pods, the player has no choice, but either way, the unit has already arrived and the chance for Coteaz to shoot at them has passed.

bushido wrote:When the unit arrived, they were inside the vehicle. You can't shoot at a unit inside a vehicle.

After the unit arrives, the player can then choose to disembark. In the case of drop pods, the player has no choice, but either way, the unit has already arrived and the chance for Coteaz to shoot at them has passed.

So you're saying that if Coteaz' unit multi-meltas a deep-striking drop-pod before the dreadnought inside gets out...then what? You have to create new rules for it.

Alternatively...there's a simple check. Drop pod deep-strikes. Unit disembarks from drop pod.

Did the drop pod arrive from reserves within 12" of Coteaz?
Did the disembarked unit arrive from reserves within 12" of Coteaz?

Dashofpepper wrote:So you're saying that if Coteaz' unit multi-meltas a deep-striking drop-pod before the dreadnought inside gets out...then what? You have to create new rules for it.

Or you could do the same thing you do every other time a transport vehicle is destroyed, and have the dreadnought disembark.

somerandomdude wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:So you're saying that if Coteaz' unit multi-meltas a deep-striking drop-pod before the dreadnought inside gets out...then what? You have to create new rules for it.

Or you could do the same thing you do every other time a transport vehicle is destroyed, and have the dreadnought disembark.

^Problem solved?

Coteaz is already creating a unique situation: a unit potentially shooting multiple times out of the normal turn sequence.

NOt really unique, just a copy of the old mystic rules

And in the old mystic rules you shot at the DP OR the unit inside, your choice.

nosferatu1001 has the right of it. That's how the mystics were FAQ'ed. One shot per deep strike, so if a Tact squad lands in a Drop pod and combat squads into two squads you can shoot at one of the three units that just popped on the board.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Did the drop pod arrive from reserves within 12" of Coteaz?

Yes.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Did the disembarked unit arrive from reserves within 12" of Coteaz?

No. It arrived from reserves in a drop pod. Then it disembarked.

It ALSO arrived via DS, according to the rules for embarked models.

It did two things: arrived via DS *and* disembarked.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It ALSO arrived via DS, according to the rules for embarked models.

It did two things: arrived via DS *and* disembarked.

Which isn't relevant to this discussion since Coteaz only allows you to fire at things when they arrive from reserve. He's got nothing for things Deep Striking outside of sometimes things that Deep Strike are arriving from reserves.

vonjankmon wrote:nosferatu1001 has the right of it. That's how the mystics were changed to work. One shot per deep strike, so if a Tact squad lands in a Drop pod and combat squads into two squads you can shoot at one of the three units that just popped on the board.

Being in an old FAQ doesn't make it right. That rule was made up, especially since, if you believe the occupants are a legal target, then they AND the vehicle could BOTH be shot at.

The fact is, when the unit arrives from reserve, it hasn't disembarked yet. Can you shoot an embarked unit?

How about another example: A Dark Eldar Raider (with Duke Sliscus in the army) Deep Strikes, and a Wych unit inside disembarks after it lands. Can you shoot the Wyches? No, because they aren't a legal target until long after* they arrived from reserves.

*In any game where timing is key, anything that happens immediately after something might as well happen 800 steps after something. The important thing is that it happens after.

DarknessEternal wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It ALSO arrived via DS, according to the rules for embarked models.

It did two things: arrived via DS *and* disembarked.

Which isn't relevant to this discussion since Coteaz only allows you to fire at things when they arrive from reserve. He's got nothing for things Deep Striking outside of sometimes things that Deep Strike are arriving from reserves.

It arrived from reserves via DS, according to the rulebook.

It also arrived embarked, an proceeded to disembark.

Two separate thingx, only one of which is important

If I'm reading Coteaz' rules correctly they state that there is no limit to the number of times he can use this ability to shoot at reserves. Therefore it seems he could shoot both the pod and the squad as they both arrived from reserve.

Wrong take?

The debate is over exactly when Coteaz is able to take those shots. His rule does say immediately, which should mean as soon as the models arrive from reserve. This would mean that Coteaz doesnt care in the slightest if a unit has deepstruck earlier in the turn, he is only able to shoot at models as soon as they arrive.

So its possible that Coteaz can only shoot at the pod, since the pod is the only target *immediately* available when the pod and the unit inside the pod arrive from reserves.

Given how GW went on the faq for a similar ability in a previous codex they may well give Coteaz the option of which to target.

The least likely choice would seem to be giving Coteaz the ability to shoot at both, since technically by RAW its open to debate whether or not he can shoot at the embarked unit at akk.




Sliggoth

The thing is, when you roll for reserves, you roll for what is in the drop pod; the pod's just a dedicated transport.

So what arrived from reserve are the Tactical Marines. They just happen to be in their transport.

Unless you just say "drop pod" when you roll for reserves; but I'm sure that's not what most people do, especially with multiple pods.

Unit1126PLL wrote:The thing is, when you roll for reserves, you roll for what is in the drop pod; the pod's just a dedicated transport.

So what arrived from reserve are the Tactical Marines. They just happen to be in their transport.

Unless you just say "drop pod" when you roll for reserves; but I'm sure that's not what most people do, especially with multiple pods.

I'd agree here, you roll for units, not dedicated transports. The entry on your army list and codex would read "tactical marines" or "dreadnought" for which you had purchased a transport. What arrived from reserve was that unit.

It's still a muddy rule, but my *guess* is that they'll end up doing it the same as before and he'll get to shoot one or the other.

Here's my take on it, following the sequence:

Drop Pod enters play from reserves near Coteaz. Drop Pod contains a unit (we'll call it Dreadnought). Dreadnought was in reserve, and it is arriving, so Dreadnought is arriving from reserve.

Coteaz's ability then triggers twice immediately, allowing him to shoot at the Drop Pod (this point is uncontested) and potentially the Dreadnought. There are then two potential outcomes, but I'm not real sure about the rules for this particular thing so I'll just mention them both.

Outcome 1: Coteaz has to choose which shooting attack to resolve first. If Coteaz chooses to attempt to shoot at the Dreadnought first then he does nothing, because he can't target units inside transports. If Coteaz chooses to shoot at the Drop Pod first then he is allowed to do so - if the Drop Pod disembarks its unit (because it is destroyed, for instance) then Coteaz takes his second shooting attack, allowing him to shoot at the Dreadnought (because it's no longer inside a transport).

Outcome 2: Coteaz has to resolve both shooting attacks simultaneously. The shot against the Dreadnought fails, as mentioned above. Coteaz takes his shot against the Drop Pod normally.

In both Outcome 1 and Outcome 2, the Drop Pod will disembark the Dreadnought after the shots if it survives.

Whether or not the player follows Outcome 1 or Outcome 2 depends on whether or not he is allowed to choose the order that actions are performed. For example, if a special effect forces you to roll Morale checks on 2 different squads, does the controlling player pick which one to roll first?

For Coteaz, I think that the player would pick the order that the actions are applied, giving Outcome 1. This is because his ability says "immediately, out-of-sequence" - meaning that the 2nd use of his ability would interrupt the 1st use. So you would say "Ok, this Dreadnought is arriving from reserves, so I'm allowed to shoot at it immediately... wait, this Drop Pod is arriving from reserve, so I'm going to interrupt the sequence to shoot at the Drop Pod"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The thing is, when you roll for reserves, you roll for what is in the drop pod; the pod's just a dedicated transport.

So what arrived from reserve are the Tactical Marines. They just happen to be in their transport.

Unless you just say "drop pod" when you roll for reserves; but I'm sure that's not what most people do, especially with multiple pods.

I'd agree here, you roll for units, not dedicated transports. The entry on your army list and codex would read "tactical marines" or "dreadnought" for which you had purchased a transport. What arrived from reserve was that unit.

It's still a muddy rule, but my *guess* is that they'll end up doing it the same as before and he'll get to shoot one or the other.

Drop Pods are held in reserve. The unit that the drop pod is transporting is held in reserve. So, if both arrive, both are "arriving from reserve".

The argument that the Drop Pod is not arriving from reserve isn't really defensible. Coteaz's special rule says nothing about rolling.

Xarian wrote:Here's my take on it, following the sequence:

Drop Pod enters play from reserves near Coteaz. Drop Pod contains a unit (we'll call it Dreadnought). Dreadnought was in reserve, and it is arriving, so Dreadnought is arriving from reserve.

Coteaz's ability then triggers twice immediately, allowing him to shoot at the Drop Pod (this point is uncontested) and potentially the Dreadnought. There are then two potential outcomes, but I'm not real sure about the rules for this particular thing so I'll just mention them both.

Outcome 1: Coteaz has to choose which shooting attack to resolve first. If Coteaz chooses to attempt to shoot at the Dreadnought first then he does nothing, because he can't target units inside transports. If Coteaz chooses to shoot at the Drop Pod first then he is allowed to do so - if the Drop Pod disembarks its unit (because it is destroyed, for instance) then Coteaz takes his second shooting attack, allowing him to shoot at the Dreadnought (because it's no longer inside a transport).

Outcome 2: Coteaz has to resolve both shooting attacks simultaneously. The shot against the Dreadnought fails, as mentioned above. Coteaz takes his shot against the Drop Pod normally.

In both Outcome 1 and Outcome 2, the Drop Pod will disembark the Dreadnought after the shots if it survives.

Whether or not the player follows Outcome 1 or Outcome 2 depends on whether or not he is allowed to choose the order that actions are performed. For example, if a special effect forces you to roll Morale checks on 2 different squads, does the controlling player pick which one to roll first?

For Coteaz, I think that the player would pick the order that the actions are applied, giving Outcome 1. This is because his ability says "immediately, out-of-sequence" - meaning that the 2nd use of his ability would interrupt the 1st use. So you would say "Ok, this Dreadnought is arriving from reserves, so I'm allowed to shoot at it immediately... wait, this Drop Pod is arriving from reserve, so I'm going to interrupt the sequence to shoot at the Drop Pod"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The thing is, when you roll for reserves, you roll for what is in the drop pod; the pod's just a dedicated transport.

So what arrived from reserve are the Tactical Marines. They just happen to be in their transport.

Unless you just say "drop pod" when you roll for reserves; but I'm sure that's not what most people do, especially with multiple pods.

I'd agree here, you roll for units, not dedicated transports. The entry on your army list and codex would read "tactical marines" or "dreadnought" for which you had purchased a transport. What arrived from reserve was that unit.

It's still a muddy rule, but my *guess* is that they'll end up doing it the same as before and he'll get to shoot one or the other.

Drop Pods are held in reserve. The unit that the drop pod is transporting is held in reserve. So, if both arrive, both are "arriving from reserve".

The argument that the Drop Pod is not arriving from reserve isn't really defensible. Coteaz's special rule says nothing about rolling.

I think you just misunderstood me, but we're in agreement. I may not have been clear, mine was a response to people arguing that the unit wasn't arriving from reserve, the pod/etc. was and they were just transported. Both are arriving from reserve was what I was trying to say, since the pod is PART of the unit entry, and you roll for the unit entry, not for pieces of it seperately.

It's all a matter of timing, and to my understanding, drop pods operate in 2 stages when arriving from reserve:

1. Drop pod arrives from reserve, and scatters as appropriate

2. Contents of drop pod exit their dedicated transport.

Coteaz is fairly specific on his trigger conditions here (GK Codex, p45: "If an enemy unit arrives from reserve within 12 inches of Coteaz and within his line of sight...", emphasis mine) which suggests that Coteaz and company are stuck nuking the drop pod, as opposed to the contents, as the sequence of events goes like so:

1. Drop pod arrives from reserve via deepstrike, carrying a single dreadnought, landing within 12" and line of sight of Coteaz. Dreadnought and Drop Pod are on the table, as per the transport rules. Both have arrived from reserve at this point

1a. Coteaz has one eligible target, the drop pod, as the dreadnought is still embarked in the pod, and cannot have LOS drawn to it. Drop pod has presented itself as a valid target with distance to Coteaz, as well as arriving from reserve and presenting itself in LOS, the dreadnought has only met 2 of 3 of these conditions (reserve and distance)

1b. Coteaz fires on the drop pod, being the only eligible target.

2. Dreadnought disembarks, either because of pod destruction or resolution of pod's DS procedure. Because the dreadnought, at this point, has already ARRIVED from reserve, but was ineligible to be targeted by Coteaz due to LOS restrictions, our inquisitor friend cannot target the Dread, as it meets the LOS conditions for being a target only AFTER the option to fire on it has passed.

Disembarking from a drop pod is not optional, nor is their delayin doing so. It is a single action. There is no space, nor time, nor pause between setting down drop pod and disembarking unit involuntarily.

Coteaz may make an out of sequence shooting attack, but NO unit in 40k may make an out-of-sequence Magick-Type "Interrupt." Nothing in 40k can. All attacks are rolled at once, all saves are rolled at once, all actions are completed unit by unit before anything else in the game progresses. If Lucas the Trickster fails a wound and dies, and you rolled his save before any others, you don't immediately pause to resolve his affects, you roll the rest of the saves first.

Nor can you take an out of sequence shooting attack at a disembarking unit after the first model gets out before any other does - the action must be completed first. As I said, 40k has no "Interrupt" spells.

A drop pod does not drop down with contents...pause halfway through its option to get shot at, then continue with the same action. A drop pod drops, and disembarks a unit. They both explicitly count as having arrived from reserve via deep-strike that turn. The rulebook says so.

Coteaz can shoot immediately upon arrival, which means as soon as you are done arriving. Not on your way down from the sky, not before you scatter, not after you've started bringing in the next reserve unit, but as soon as the unit has finished arriving from reserve.

The "unit inside is impervious because it hasn't arrived yet" when their arrival is in conjunction with the drop-pod and involuntary is like saying that Snikrot ambushing from the back table edge - as soon as the first model gets onto the board, Cotteaz fires at them. Not true. The unit arrives from reserve. When they are done - when their movement is completed...then the *next* action, whatever action that is, can take place.

Dronze wrote:
2. Dreadnought disembarks, either because of pod destruction or resolution of pod's DS procedure. Because the dreadnought, at this point, has already ARRIVED from reserve, but was ineligible to be targeted by Coteaz due to LOS restrictions, our inquisitor friend cannot target the Dread, as it meets the LOS conditions for being a target only AFTER the option to fire on it has passed.

My emphasis.

Where does it say when the option to fire on it has passed? It doesn't say how "LONG" he has to shoot at a unit from reserve, or even how many times he may do so in a turn.

The unit immediately disembarks, and Coteaz immediately fired

Nothing states which takes precendence, and you have no permission to interrupt the pod forced disembark.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The unit immediately disembarks, and Coteaz immediately fired

Nothing states which takes precendence, and you have no permission to interrupt the pod forced disembark.

But you could shoot twice, since two units arrived from reserves within LOS and within 12".

EDIT: That is to say, he could shoot at the Drop Pod (as the first unit to arrive from reserve within 12" and LOS) and then shoot at the Dreadnought (as the second unit that arrived from reserve within 12" and LOS).

Unless it says he may only do it once, and then I'm just an idiot.

I dont disagree with the shoot twice - i just disagree that you cannot shoot at the contents at all. My guess for FAQ would be exactly the same as WH/DH mystics.

Dronze has it spot on. When the marines arrive from reserves, you check whether they are within 12" and if Coteaz can draw LoS them. As they are inside the drop pod when arriving, he can not draw LoS to them, and thus may not shoot the squad.
Once the drop pod is done dropping, he may immediately shoot it, while the space marines must immediately disembark. While I don't see an argument for either being done first, he may never shoot the unit disembarking from the pod, as it is never arriving within LOS to trigger his ability.

Jidmah wrote:Dronze has it spot on. When the marines arrive from reserves, you check whether they are within 12" and if Coteaz can draw LoS them. As they are inside the drop pod when arriving, he can not draw LoS to them, and thus may not shoot the squad.

Agreed, this is when he shoots the pod.

Jidmah wrote:Once the drop pod is done dropping, he may immediately shoot it, while the space marines must immediately disembark. While I don't see an argument for either being done first, he may never shoot the unit disembarking from the pod, as it is never arriving within LOS to trigger his ability.

But it IS arriving within LOS when it disembarks from the drop pod. Once it disembarks, it enters LOS, and that's when Coteaz shoots it... because it is:

GK Codex wrote: A unit arriving from reserves within 12" and in LOS

Jidmah - it arrives and immediately disembarks the troops, who are now (for the sake of argument) in LOS. THey can be shot.

I think one of the key points RAW is that it specifically states he can shoot as often as this occurence happens. I don't think anyone is arguing that the dreadnought is also not arriving from reserve just because it is in a drop pod. In essence the drop pod AND the dreadnought are arriving from reserve simultaneously and since there is no limit to the shooting he can do he shoots both. I see it both RAW and as intended as well. He is meant to be able to take a pot shot at anyone who arrives within 12 inches of him.

As a counterpoint if a BA player deepstrikes his LR against Corteaz and does not disembark his Terminators obviously Corteaz only gets a shot at the LR. The terminators who disembark on the next turn are not arriving from reserve because they did so on the previous turn and instead are acting normally.

here is how i see this working.

drop pod arrives, scatters. if it is within 12" of cortez and in his LOS, he takes his free shots.

the unit now disembarks from the pod following the rules according to wether it is destroyed ot not.

cortez now traces LoS & 12" to the disembarked unit if he satisfisies both conditions he takes a shot.


now the way to fix this is if the pod survives deploy the unit not in his LoS, or dont deep strike/disembark 12" from cortez.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dronze wrote:
2. Dreadnought disembarks, either because of pod destruction or resolution of pod's DS procedure. Because the dreadnought, at this point, has already ARRIVED from reserve, but was ineligible to be targeted by Coteaz due to LOS restrictions, our inquisitor friend cannot target the Dread, as it meets the LOS conditions for being a target only AFTER the option to fire on it has passed.

My emphasis.

Where does it say when the option to fire on it has passed? It doesn't say how "LONG" he has to shoot at a unit from reserve, or even how many times he may do so in a turn.

The part where the wording puts the firing in present tense and not past tense. The option to fire is resolved as soon at the pod has hit the table and finished the scatter, interrupting the process before the dreadnought is able to disembark. Since the footprint of the contents is the same as the footprint of the model, the contents, at that point, are considered to be on the table for all game purposes, and is, for the brief time it is being transported from reserves, no different from any other squad coming onto the table in their fancy metal box and disembarking.

"If a unit ARRIVES from reserve..." Suggesting that "I've Been Expecting You" is a triggered, conditional response to an action. The dreadnought, in this case, is arriving while cloistered away in a transport, which will, upon finding it's final landing spot, vomit forth it's washing machine-like cargo from its hold. Because of the timing, this is interrupted BEFORE the dreadnought has a chance to get out because both models are, at that point in time, on the table, and the dreadnought is, even briefly, still embarked in the drop pod. Transport rules give you 2 opportunities in which to pile out of any transport, either before the transport moves, or after the transport moves. The drop pod provides an additional de facto restriction to this by disallowing models to disembark from it until after it has moved. A drop pod is just a transport with special rules, and does not disembark a model before it, and by default, it's contents, have finished arriving, Coteaz allows you to open fire when they arrive, which is somewhere in that unit of Planck time between resolving the scatter and disembarking the unit.

Coteaz couldn't open fire on the contents of a standard transport coming on off of the table edge should they decide to disembark within 12" of him that turn, so how is this any different?

Dashofpepper wrote:Disembarking from a drop pod is not optional, nor is their delayin doing so. It is a single action. There is no space, nor time, nor pause between setting down drop pod and disembarking unit involuntarily.

The "unit inside is impervious because it hasn't arrived yet" when their arrival is in conjunction with the drop-pod and involuntary is like saying that Snikrot ambushing from the back table edge - as soon as the first model gets onto the board, Cotteaz fires at them. Not true. The unit arrives from reserve. When they are done - when their movement is completed...then the *next* action, whatever action that is, can take place.

Did ANYONE read this? The drop pod hits the ground and the doors open. Fuffwise this happens in a split second. Meaning landing and disembarking happen simultaneously, meaning that coteaz can shoot the troops inside as they are arriving from reserves within twelve inches.

Rulewise, a drop pod has never been allowed to "delay" the disembarkation of its contents, meaning they run out as soon as the pod hits the ground, which happens simultaneously with the door opening.

The only real argument here is whether coteaz gets the option to shoot both. No unit drop podding in can circumvent this rule, its only a matter of whether or not he gets that multimelta shot on your drop pod as well.

Because the units are specified as ALSO arriving via Deepstrke, per chance?

How is it interrupting? You have no permission to ignore the immediately in "immediately disembark"

Droze wrote:Coteaz couldn't open fire on the contents of a standard transport coming on off of the table edge should they decide to disembark within 12" of him that turn, so how is this any different?

Actually, yes, he could, since both units are:

Arriving from reserve
In LOS
Within 12"

Just to argue a point, when the unit inside the pod arrives from reserves it isnt in LOS.

Note that the unit arrives with the pod, then must immediately disembark. This means that when the unit arrives (which is when we check Coteaz's rule) the unit is still inside the pod and hence cannot be in LOS. At the point its disembarking it has already arrived from reserves.


The unit arriving from reserves has to be both within 12" and in LOS of Coteaz when it arrives from reserves.



Of course the unit will be popping out of the pod just after it arrives, which will probably lead to Coteaz getting a FAQ allowing him a choice of targets.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Just to argue a point, when the unit inside the pod arrives from reserves it isnt in LOS.

Note that the unit arrives with the pod, then must immediately disembark. This means that when the unit arrives (which is when we check Coteaz's rule) the unit is still inside the pod and hence cannot be in LOS. At the point its disembarking it has already arrived from reserves.

And again...not true.

40k does NOT HAVE INTERRUPT SPELLS. There is no such thing outside of fluff as a unit embarked in a drop-pod. You may not have a unit on the table inside of a drop pod. No unit, rule, or weapon in 40k may interrupt any action that any other unit is taking. You can affect those actions with your own before and after, but you may not interrupt them.

On a separate point: Check your rules. When a unit emerges from a drop pod - it is immediately considered to have arrived from reserves via deep-strike. There is no rule justification anywhere in a codex or the main rulebook to believe that the unit arrives from reserves inside the drop pod, gets out of the drop pod, and is no longer having arrived from reserves.

I have a question about Drop Pods and I don't use them. If the unit that arrives from reserves with the drop pod disembarks behind the Drop Pod so Coteaz can't see them does that mean he can't shoot them? If disembarking happens simultaneously with arriving from reserves in the case of a Drop Pod what prevents you from disembarking out of Line of Sight?

It would be difficult - the doors fall off and it is open-topped, so you can see right through it. If I were playing in a game, I might offer a cover save (depending on layout), but I would still have LOS. However, if they deploy on the other side of the drop pod, they could be outside of 12".

@ Dash Not quite sure where you are getting your idea here.


If a unit is disembarking from a vehicle (in this case a pod) then the unit would need to have been inside the vehicle. This isnt fluff, its a very simple understanding of how transport vehicles work in 40K. If a transport drives, flies or deep strikes onto the table then it can have a unit inside.

There is no need to look for some sort of magic interrupt spells in 40k. But we do need to look at what the rules say, and since a unit must disembark from a pod once the pod has landed....doesnt that mean that the unit MUST have been embarked on the pod?



BTW, I did not say that a unit that arrives via a pod no longer counts as having arrived from reserves. What I said was that when the unit arrived from reserves it was inside the pod, and as such it was not in LOS for Coteaz at that time. Of course the unit counts as having arrived from reserves that whole turn...but thats not what Coteaz is interested in.


When it arrives. This is the only time that matters for Coteaz's rule. When the unit arrives it has to be within 12" and in LOS in order for Coteaz to have the chance to shoot at the unit. If he has LOS or range later in the turn he doesnt suddenly get another chance to shoot, he has to have the conditions met WHEN IT ARRIVES.



If we have a rule in some faq that a unit inside a pod doesnt arrive until it disembarks then Coteaz would be fine. GW has its faqs split up enough that there might be one hiding out there somewhere, anyone have a location for one on this? Maybe on some faq about combat squadding out of a pod...seems to ring a bell but couldnt find one. Might be interesting if so, might mean a combat squadded pod unit might give coteaz three targets



Sliggoth

Sliggoth:

In 40k, you do one thing at a time, per unit, then move onto the next unit. When a pod arrives, the unit inside disembarks. There is no pause between the two. A unit may not be on the field inside a drop pod. You cannot interrupt any action in 40k halfway through with a modifier. There is no such thing.

When the drop comes down inside 12" of Coteaz, it becomes a viable target. BEFORE any action in the game is resolved, the unit disembarks. You cannot drop the pod and move on to another roll. You cannot drop the pod and cast a psychic power. 40k happens in steps - pod dropping and unit disembarking is one step, not two. You're suggesting that it is two steps, separate from each other. It is not. With the rules 100% clear on it....if you can think of some mechanism that interrupts an action in 40k like a magical interrupt, then you have precedent for an argument.

The closest I can think of is daemons making a unit change targets, but even that isn't an interruption for an action, its a redirection of the action.

A unit embarked in a drop pod arrives from reserves. The unit may NOT be in the drop. Aside from a delivery mechanism, they are never in it. You cannot get into it, you are not allowed into it, you are not allowed to stay in it. For all intents and purposes, the unit arrives on the table at the exact same moment as the drop pod.

It doesn't need a FAQ, it has the rulebook to back it up.

Units arrive from reserves via drop pod.
"A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." SW 47
"...arrival of the remiaing drop pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." BA 32
"A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." SM 69

Coteaz says "if an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12 and in LoS he can immediately..."
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and
all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal." SM 69

Two immediate actions, but, for a drop pod to have 'landed' this means having sucess in the deep strike. BRB reserves say: "Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)." 94

So we know that drop pod arrives from reserve with the unit embarked - together - and that the unit inside must disembark.

As such there's no way for Corteaz to shoot a unit disembarking from a drop pod. They have already arrived from reserves - embarked - one can not draw LoS to an embarked unit.

To shoot at the previously embarked unit would be like shooting at a unit which has arrived from reserves and disembarked from their transport... well it would be... and when they arrived from reserves one could not draw LoS.

ChrisCP wrote:Units arrive from reserves via drop pod.

As such there's no way for Corteaz to shoot a unit disembarking from a drop pod. They have already arrived from reserves - embarked - one can not draw LoS to an embarked unit.

To shoot at the previously embarked unit would be like shooting at a unit which has arrived from reserves and disembarked from their transport... well it would be... and when they arrived from reserves one could not draw LoS.

That isn't entirely true. The main issue is the wording. It is not "A unit arriving from reserves within 12"..." it is "If a unit arrives from reserves..." a unit can arrive from reserve, disembark from a transport, and still count as having arrived from reserves.

If a unit arrives from reserves, whether through disembarking, deep striking, walking on, or outflanking, if it ARRIVES ON THE TABLE DUE TO THE RESULT OF A RESERVE ROLL during its turn and it fulfills the requirements for Coteaz, then he may shoot.

I can't really explain further, except to say that yes, he can shoot at a unit which disembarks from ANY transport on the turn it arrives, because:

It has arrived from reserves
is within 12"
and is within LOS.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Units arrive from reserves via drop pod.
"A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." SW 47
"...arrival of the remiaing drop pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." BA 32
"A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." SM 69

Coteaz says "if an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12 and in LoS he can immediately..."
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and
all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal." SM 69

Two immediate actions, but, for a drop pod to have 'landed' this means having sucess in the deep strike. BRB reserves say: "Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)." 94 BRB

So we know that drop pod arrives from reserve with the unit embarked - together - and that the unit inside must disembark.

As such there's no way for Corteaz to shoot a unit disembarking from a drop pod. They have already arrived from reserves - embarked - one can not draw LoS to an embarked unit.

To shoot at the previously embarked unit would be like shooting at a unit which has arrived from reserves and disembarked from their transport... well it would be... and when they arrived from reserves one could not draw LoS.

That isn't entirely true. The main issue is the wording. It is not "A unit arriving from reserves within 12"..." it is "If a unit arrives from reserves..." a unit can arrive from reserve, disembark from a transport, and still count as having arrived from reserves.

If a unit arrives from reserves, whether through disembarking, deep striking, walking on, or outflanking, if it ARRIVES ON THE TABLE DUE TO THE RESULT OF A RESERVE ROLL during its turn and it fulfills the requirements for Coteaz, then he may shoot.

I can't really explain further, except to say that yes, he can shoot at a unit which disembarks from ANY transport on the turn it arrives, because:

It has arrived from reserves
is within 12"
and is within LOS.

But he has not then taken the shot immediately upon their arrival from reserves

Could you at least explain how you are avoiding the stipulation that Corteaz can take this action 'immediately'?
As in your explanation you've said that units arrive from reserves as a result of reserve rolls.

The exact quote is "if an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12 and with-in his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit may immediately..." Why did you trim the "immediately" off the end of yours? Did you not read the full quote?

Dash almost has it right, he does tell us that we do one thing at a time, per unit, then move onto the next unit.



Of course, the pod arrives and then we are done with that unit. The pod has arrived and it just so happens that it brought a second unit along with it from reserves. So this second unit has also arrived from reserves at the same time. When we do things in the game with units we may trigger other units or events. Moving too close to a mine may trigger an attack, moving through terrain may trigger a test etc. Entering from reserves too close to coteaz and within his line of sight may trigger his rule.

The unit inside the pod isnt in there very long, its going to be disembarking from the pod as the next unit the player moves. In real life of course it may be a few minutes if one takes a pause for a bio or to grab a fresh drink. The important part tho is that unit disembarks after the pod arrives.

Its that word immediately that indeed does give us a timeline of events. The pod arrives and then the next thing that happens is that the unit inside the pod then must disembark from the pod. However, this also tells us that the unit is inside the pod and has arrived with the pod.

When a unit arrives from reserves the other player can check coteaz's rule to see if the arriving unit is within 12" and to see if coteaz has los. Coteaz can then immediately shoot at the arriving unit. But if a unit arrives from reserves and fails to meet either of these two criteria then coteaz cannot later decide to shoot at a unit that either moves within range or enters his los.

If a unit of termies deep strikes in and lands on the other side of a land raider then if the LR is blocking the los then coteaz will not be able to shoot at the termies. Even if later in the turn the lr drives off and gives coteaz los, because of that pesky word immediately.





Sliggoth

Dashofpepper wrote:

When a unit emerges from a drop pod - it is immediately considered to have arrived from reserves via deep-strike. There is no rule justification anywhere in a codex or the main rulebook to believe that the unit arrives from reserves inside the drop pod, gets out of the drop pod, and is no longer having arrived from reserves.

I think this sums it up really.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
It has arrived from reserves
is within 12"
and is within LOS.

If you're going with that, you can also argue that he can shoot at any unit at any time so long as it has arrived from reserves and is within 12" of his squad.

Dashofpepper wrote:A unit embarked in a drop pod arrives from reserves. The unit may NOT be in the drop. Aside from a delivery mechanism, they are never in it. You cannot get into it, you are not allowed into it, you are not allowed to stay in it. For all intents and purposes, the unit arrives on the table at the exact same moment as the drop pod.

Whether or not you can embark in a drop pod later has no importance. Also, if you want to be technical, the unit inside does not arrive on the table at the exact same time. If that were true, the models would be interchangeable. Instead, it isn't until the Drop Pod lands that you are able to (must) disembark the unit inside.

Dashofpepper wrote:When a unit emerges from a drop pod - it is immediately considered to have arrived from reserves via deep-strike. There is no rule justification anywhere in a codex or the main rulebook to believe that the unit arrives from reserves inside the drop pod, gets out of the drop pod, and is no longer having arrived from reserves.

Those are two completely different things as far as Coteaz is concerned, and seems to go against what you said above (note: I quoted you out of order, but not intentionally). As has been stated, Coteaz cares about arriving from Reserve, not arrived. In that statement above, you make my case for me: It arrives from reserves inside the Drop Pod. At that moment (the moment when it arrives from reserves) it is not a legal target, as it is not in LoS.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting interrupts*. I'm simply stating that, at the time when the trigger occurs, the effect can't happen. The unit disembarking from the Drop Pod is not when it arrives from reserves. True, it did arrive from reserves, but that doesn't matter to Coteaz.

NOTE: If they do go with the ruling that the old Mystics had, it wouldn't be an agreement with your argument, but a compromise. If you are correct, then both the Drop Pod and the unit could be shot each turn.

*On interrupts, they are sometimes necessary in a game like this with a sequence of events. The fact that the rules don't specifically address this is I suppose a reason to suggest that they can never occur, but personally I think it would make the game a lot smoother to know when exactly things interact. However, with Coteaz, it causes even more problems. For instance, when something walks/rolls on the table edge, do you shoot at it immediately when it starts moving onto the board, or only after it has completed its move? Also, if the board edge is 18" away, and the unit ends its movement 12" away, can it be shot? Or does Coteaz actually care about the point of arrival, and not the end of the "arriving move".

bushido wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
It has arrived from reserves
is within 12"
and is within LOS.

If you're going with that, you can also argue that he can shoot at any unit at any time so long as it has arrived from reserves and is within 12" of his squad.

Yes, though it's immediately. "At any time" may imply that the Coteaz player could choose when to shoot. Keep in mind that for the entirety of that player's turn. Any unit that arrives from Reserves, has arrived that way for the whole turn. So if they were to Move within 12'' of Coteaz, they would immediately get shot.

As for this:

ChrisCP wrote:But he has not then taken the shot immediately upon their arrival from reserves

Could you at least explain how you are avoiding the stipulation that Corteaz can take this action 'immediately'?
As in your explanation you've said that units arrive from reserves as a result of reserve rolls.

The exact quote is "if an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12 and with-in his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit may immediately..." Why did you trim the "immediately" off the end of yours? Did you not read the full quote?

He's not avoiding the stipulation. As the embarked unit is technically not on the table it doesn't trigger the immediate action from Coteaz. Assuming the embarked unit disembarks the same turn it arrived from Reserves and is within 12'' of Coteaz the shot occurs.

-Yad

ChrisCP wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Units arrive from reserves via drop pod.
"A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." SW 47
"...arrival of the remiaing drop pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." BA 32
"A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives." SM 69

Coteaz says "if an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12 and in LoS he can immediately..."
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and
all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal." SM 69

Two immediate actions, but, for a drop pod to have 'landed' this means having sucess in the deep strike. BRB reserves say: "Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)." 94 BRB

So we know that drop pod arrives from reserve with the unit embarked - together - and that the unit inside must disembark.

As such there's no way for Corteaz to shoot a unit disembarking from a drop pod. They have already arrived from reserves - embarked - one can not draw LoS to an embarked unit.

To shoot at the previously embarked unit would be like shooting at a unit which has arrived from reserves and disembarked from their transport... well it would be... and when they arrived from reserves one could not draw LoS.

That isn't entirely true. The main issue is the wording. It is not "A unit arriving from reserves within 12"..." it is "If a unit arrives from reserves..." a unit can arrive from reserve, disembark from a transport, and still count as having arrived from reserves.

If a unit arrives from reserves, whether through disembarking, deep striking, walking on, or outflanking, if it ARRIVES ON THE TABLE DUE TO THE RESULT OF A RESERVE ROLL during its turn and it fulfills the requirements for Coteaz, then he may shoot.

I can't really explain further, except to say that yes, he can shoot at a unit which disembarks from ANY transport on the turn it arrives, because:

It has arrived from reserves
is within 12"
and is within LOS.

But he has not then taken the shot immediately upon their arrival from reserves

Could you at least explain how you are avoiding the stipulation that Corteaz can take this action 'immediately'?
As in your explanation you've said that units arrive from reserves as a result of reserve rolls.

The exact quote is "if an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12 and with-in his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit may immediately..." Why did you trim the "immediately" off the end of yours? Did you not read the full quote?

2 responses:

1) Coteaz immediately takes the shot once the conditions are fulfilled. If one of the three conditions is not met, Coteaz does not immediately do anything.

2) I will do better once you explain to me how you avoid the "must immediately disembark" clause in the droppod rules.

Yad wrote:

bushido wrote:
If you're going with that, you can also argue that he can shoot at any unit at any time so long as it has arrived from reserves and is within 12" of his squad.

Yes, though it's immediately. "At any time" may imply that the Coteaz player could choose when to shoot. Keep in mind that for the entirety of that player's turn. Any unit that arrives from Reserves, has arrived that way for the whole turn. So if they were to Move within 12'' of Coteaz, they would immediately get shot.

-Yad

Not quite. Coteaz's rule is: "If an enemy arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteas and within his line of sight, [...]."
If it had said: "If an enemy unit that has arrived from reserves is within [...]" then you'd be correct.

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) I will do better once you explain to me how you avoid the "must immediately disembark" clause in the droppod rules.

Coteaz also may "immediately" make a shooting attack. So whose "immediately" takes precedence? He can't wait until the squad gets out to shoot, and since the unit arrives (as if deep striking) inside a vehicle, it's not a valid target for Coteaz's immediate action.


The way I see it: He can either shoot at both the unit *and* the pod, or just the pod, depending on which special rule's "immediately" comes first.

bushido wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) I will do better once you explain to me how you avoid the "must immediately disembark" clause in the droppod rules.

Coteaz also may "immediately" make a shooting attack. So whose "immediately" takes precedence? He can't wait until the squad gets out to shoot, and since the unit arrives (as if deep striking) inside a vehicle, it's not a valid target for Coteaz's immediate action.

Exactly, thats pretty much the whole problem....whos 'immediately' takes precedence?
I'm with Drop-pods immediate first, then Coteaz shooting at both Pod and the unit transported
EDIT:missed out a sentence

I've put forth a lengthy explanation of why the drop pod's immediately takes precedence - because 40k does not have interrupts.

A deep-striking drop pod does not land, and end the action. It counts as open-topped because the doors blow off on contact, and the unit immediately disembarks. We have to make up rules to interrupt that action.

As previously stated: There are no interrupts in 40k.

And worth noting: If the drop pod lands and gets shot at before its mandatory instantaneous action takes place...well, its not an open-topped drop pod is it? There is no allowance in 40k for a drop pod to be on the table with the hatches closed, subject to any action. If it is on the table, it *must* have the hatches down, and it *must have disembarked its unit.

As I said earlier - someone put some weight of rules behind the idea of action interrupts in 40k, and I'll reconsider the idea.

bushido wrote:

Yad wrote:

bushido wrote:
If you're going with that, you can also argue that he can shoot at any unit at any time so long as it has arrived from reserves and is within 12" of his squad.

Yes, though it's immediately. "At any time" may imply that the Coteaz player could choose when to shoot. Keep in mind that for the entirety of that player's turn. Any unit that arrives from Reserves, has arrived that way for the whole turn. So if they were to Move within 12'' of Coteaz, they would immediately get shot.

-Yad

Not quite. Coteaz's rule is: "If an enemy arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteas and within his line of sight, [...]."
If it had said: "If an enemy unit that has arrived from reserves is within [...]" then you'd be correct.

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) I will do better once you explain to me how you avoid the "must immediately disembark" clause in the droppod rules.

Coteaz also may "immediately" make a shooting attack. So whose "immediately" takes precedence? He can't wait until the squad gets out to shoot, and since the unit arrives (as if deep striking) inside a vehicle, it's not a valid target for Coteaz's immediate action.


The way I see it: He can either shoot at both the unit *and* the pod, or just the pod, depending on which special rule's "immediately" comes first.

I believe the pod's action resolves first in this case, as thats the initial action taking place.

Sequence as I see it:

Pod arrives from reserve, unit must immediately disembark attached to this event
Pod arriving triggers coteaz, who completes his action once the pod finishes, since it can't interrupt the pod's "immediately"

Then again, this feels a bit like I'm using the stack (ala mtg) which isn't the case frequently for 40k. But, I think the logic behind the sequence holds.

"Grey Knights Codex, p.45 wrote: I've Been expecting you: If an enemy unit arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out of sequence shooting attack against it. There iis no limit on how many times the ability can be used in a turn.

Here's the breakdown on how this works, as written...

If an enemy unit arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight

Conditions for triggering, very simple... if a unit meets the following criteria:

1. an enemy unit
2. arriving from reserve
3. Within 12" of Coteaz
4. In LOS of coteaz

Then this ability will trigger. Drop pods, short-lived transports that they are, are still transports, have a transport capacity and carry embarked models.

A unit cannot disembark from a transport unless they are already embarked in said transport.

A unit has the same footprint as the transport they are in.

You cannot draw LOS to an embarked unit.

Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out of sequence shooting attack against it.

The "immediately" implies that the attack is made when the pod makes touchdown. The "out of sequence" piece of this says that, yes, Virginia, this does go off before the pod drops out it's payload. Because the 2 units, the drop pod and the models embarked in it, are on the table at the same time, you check validity of the shooting attack for both of them simultaneously.

The sequence for drop pods DSing:
1. Place Drop pod on the table as a marker
2. Roll scatter
3. Move pod as indicated, adjusting for the pod's special rules, the pod is now officially on the table, with a squad of embarked models
4. Disembark embarked models

"I've been..." goes off when the drop pod officially ends up it it's final position on the table, and because it happens out of sequence, it is, indeed, interrupting the drop pod's process. It's not that difficult.

Dashofpepper wrote:And worth noting: If the drop pod lands and gets shot at before its mandatory instantaneous action takes place...well, its not an open-topped drop pod is it?

Actually, yes, it is. The rules for Drop Pods (Space Marine codex) state that once it is deployed it counts as open-topped, not once its "mandatory instantaneous action takes place."

As I said earlier - someone put some weight of rules behind the idea of action interrupts in 40k, and I'll reconsider the idea.

I gave up on interrupts a while ago because of other problems it can cause. Even without the idea of interrupts, the unit deployed is not a legal target, because when they arrive from reserves they are not in LoS, and when they deploy, they have already arrived (and are not in the act of arriving, as Coteaz's rule requires).

Seems to me everything would happen simultaneously. Cortez and his unit get off a shot with full SS bonus if using a blast marker, and the SS self destructs regardless if the unit is destroyed.

Dashofpepper wrote:I've put forth a lengthy explanation of why the drop pod's immediately takes precedence - because 40k does not have interrupts.

A deep-striking drop pod does not land, and end the action. It counts as open-topped because the doors blow off on contact, and the unit immediately disembarks. We have to make up rules to interrupt that action.

As previously stated: There are no interrupts in 40k.

And worth noting: If the drop pod lands and gets shot at before its mandatory instantaneous action takes place...well, its not an open-topped drop pod is it? There is no allowance in 40k for a drop pod to be on the table with the hatches closed, subject to any action. If it is on the table, it *must* have the hatches down, and it *must have disembarked its unit.

As I said earlier - someone put some weight of rules behind the idea of action interrupts in 40k, and I'll reconsider the idea.

That's your opinion, and that's fine, but there are no rules in favor of Coteaz *not* interrupting the normal sequence of things, since that's what his ability allows him to do anyway.

The pod's being open-topped is largely irrelevant since there are plenty of open-topped vehicles already in the game...none of which allow you to target the passengers inside. The fluff about the doors being blown off is just that: fluff.

bushido: You say that there are no rules in favor Coteaz *not* interrupting.

It is the opposite. Precedent, every codex in 40k, and the entire rulebook are the rules in favor of him not interrupting. There *is* no precedent or similiar situation to let any unit in 40k interrupt another unit's action with their own. Redirect or cancel (like a psychic hood) but not take their own action halfway through another unit's action.

It comes down to both sides saying immediately and deciding who's takes precedent. All 40k literature (fluff, rules, and codexes) favor the drop pod taking precedent. And your opposing argument is? .....

Repeating myself now...but part of a drop pod deployment is disembarkation of the unit inside.

If you have a rule that makes any unit disembarking within 24" of you immediately take a pinning test...they don't take it when the first model gets out. They take it after the entire unit has finished its deployment. Similarly, you don't get to interrupt a deployment with your own action - they finish it and you do yours.

But the pod deployment is separate from the unit inside the pod disembarking.

The pod deep strikes. This triggers coteaz's effect, one way or another. The pod is then done with its move and then we move on. At this point the pod and passenger have arrived from reserves. There is no need of an interrupt, because the passenger unit is a DIFFERENT unit. So regardless of whether or not anything in 40k can interrupt a units action......it doesnt matter for this case.


The vehicle deepstrikes and then we move on to the next unit. The passenger unit disembarks, the pod doesnt kick them out as part of its action, this is a separate action by a separate unit.



So next we either have the passenger disembark from the pod or we have have coteaz get his chance to shoot.

If we go with Dash's idea that there are no interrupts in 40k then we see that this firmly tells us that Coteaz only get to shoot at the pod and has no option to fire at the passengers. Since we have to complete one units action before even contempating doing anything with another unit then we get the following:


1) Drop pod and passnger make their reserve roll, get placed upon the table and successfully manage to land on the table.

2) This means that the pod and unit have arrived from reserves, Coteaz checks to see if the new arrivals meet his rule.

3) The passengers cant diesmbark yet since we still havent completed the pod's movement phase (need to check for dangerous terrain roll etc)

4) Coteaz checks range and LOS to the pod and passenger....passengers are still in the vehicle.

5) Done with pod movement and we then move on to the next unit, which in this case will be either coteaz shooting or the passengers disembarking. The order doesnt matter, since coteaz already had to do his check on los for the passengers.




So using the no interrupt in 40k idea, we find that Coteaz cant shoot at the passengers.



Sliggoth



PS Now if interrupts do exist in 40k we run into the problem of exactly when coteaz checks los vs exactly when the passengers disembark.

Sliggoth, deep-striking a pod full of passengers and stopping is *not* finished with its action. The pod deployment is *not* separate from the unit inside disembarking. Why? Because it is immediate and involuntary.

Dashofpepper wrote:Sliggoth, deep-striking a pod full of passengers and stopping is *not* finished with its action. The pod deployment is *not* separate from the unit inside disembarking. Why? Because it is immediate and involuntary.

A unit CANNOT be on the table and embarked in the pod simultaneously at any point, at all, ever. Period.

What Dash says here is right.

But the pod and the passengers are two different units, and as dash stated earlier we have to finish with one unit before we go on to the next unit.

So we must finish with the pod before we can move on to the passengers.

Yes, the passengers must then be the next unit that the player deals with, because the passengers must then immediately disembark.

But as outlined by dash earlier in this thread there is no interruption of the pod's movement, we have to have finished with the pod before we can move on to the passengers. So this does mean that the pod arrives....and then we proceed to the passengers.



Yes, the passengers must immediately disembark as the next unit moved by the player. The pod does not disembark the passengers, its the passengers themselves who are going to be doing the disembarking (once the pod is done and we can move onto the next unit).



Its rather interesting here tho, it appears that dash is saying in some posts that there are no such things as interrupts but then in other posts the passengers must immediately and involuntarily disembark. But....if we arent done with the pod then that would mean that this is an interrupt.



@unit1126pll The passengers do arrive in the pod, yes? The passengers then do disembark from the pod, yes? In order to be able to disembark from the pod, the passengers have to be inside the pod, at least for a microsecond. Perhaps what you are thinking of is that no unit can ever embark back onto the pod once the passengers disembark?

Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:But the pod and the passengers are two different units, and as dash stated earlier we have to finish with one unit before we go on to the next unit.

So we must finish with the pod before we can move on to the passengers.

Yes, the passengers must then be the next unit that the player deals with, because the passengers must then immediately disembark.

But as outlined by dash earlier in this thread there is no interruption of the pod's movement, we have to have finished with the pod before we can move on to the passengers. So this does mean that the pod arrives....and then we proceed to the passengers.



Yes, the passengers must immediately disembark as the next unit moved by the player. The pod does not disembark the passengers, its the passengers themselves who are going to be doing the disembarking (once the pod is done and we can move onto the next unit).



Its rather interesting here tho, it appears that dash is saying in some posts that there are no such things as interrupts but then in other posts the passengers must immediately and involuntarily disembark. But....if we arent done with the pod then that would mean that this is an interrupt.



@unit1126pll The passengers do arrive in the pod, yes? The passengers then do disembark from the pod, yes? In order to be able to disembark from the pod, the passengers have to be inside the pod, at least for a microsecond. Perhaps what you are thinking of is that no unit can ever embark back onto the pod once the passengers disembark?

Sliggoth

You aren't "moving on to the passengers" you're still finishing the action of the drop pod.

The drop pod states:

"Once the drop pod lands all passengers must immediately disembark".

This is why we're saying you're interrupting the drop pod, not the embarked units, action. The drop pod is the first unit we are dealing with, and it is forcing the disembark. It is part of the drop pods deployment.

Then coteaz's action takes place. He's not interrupting.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

A unit CANNOT be on the table and embarked in the pod simultaneously at any point, at all, ever. Period.

Bold statement.

pg.95, Deep Strike

First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice. If you roll a hit, the model stays where it is, [...]

Drop pod is placed, marines inside. Drop pod scatters, marines inside. Drop pod arrives, marines inside. Marines disembark.

bushido wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

A unit CANNOT be on the table and embarked in the pod simultaneously at any point, at all, ever. Period.

Bold statement.

pg.95, Deep Strike

First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice. If you roll a hit, the model stays where it is, [...]

Drop pod is placed, marines inside. Drop pod scatters, marines inside. Drop pod arrives, marines inside. Marines disembark.

The model you're placing is simply a token to state where you've chosen. The model isn't deployed until after you finish the drop pods deployment action, which involves a forced disembark as part of the drop pod's original action.

The marines don't disembark, the drop pod forces the marines to disembark.

Then you might want to amend your original statement (even though there's nothing about tokens in the actual DS rule).

bushido wrote:Then you might want to amend your original statement (even though there's nothing about tokens in the actual DS rule).

That original statement wasn't mine.

There may not be anything about the word "token" but it sure does state "in the position you would like the unit to arrive.

IE: It ain't actually there.

Or we could look at the drop pod rules:


"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark"


Once the pod has landed. Once it has landed it has arrived, and we see that the passengers then disembark. That means that there is a clear timeline.

1) The pod arrives.
2) The passengers disembark.


The pod has to have landed before the passengers can disembark. Im sorry, but there is a brief instant when the passengers are inside the transport vehicle that is deepstriking; in order to disembark they HAVE to be embarked.

One thing happens first, then the next thing happens. It really is that simple.

Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Or we could look at the drop pod rules:


"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark"

The pod has to have landed before the passengers can disembark. Im sorry, but there is a brief instant when the passengers are inside the transport vehicle that is deepstriking; in order to disembark they HAVE to be embarked.0

One thing happens first, then the next thing happens. It really is that simple.

Sliggoth

My emphasis.

The word "immediately" in the rule you quoted disagrees with you.

It literally means instantly, as in, the gap of time between the pod landing and the passengers disembarking is exactly zero. Immediately doesn't mean "After four seconds" or "after a day" it means NOW.

The idea that

Sliggoth wrote:there is a brief instant when the passengers are inside the transport vehicle

is directly contradicted by

Rules wrote:all passengers must immediately disembark

I really can't make it more clear.

When the drop pod arrives the passengers must immediately disembark. This means that they must be embarked...
Where were they when they arrived from reserves?
Certainly not on the board or they would never have been able to disembark from the drop pod they arrived in.

Immediately upon arriving from reserves the unit must disembark from the Pod, Coteaz may immediately take a shot at a unit arriving from reserves.

So when a Pod arrives the unit is embarked, if Coteaz take his shot after an embarked unit disembarks then he hasn’t taken his shot immediately so is no longer able to.

ChrisCP wrote:When the drop pod arrives the passengers must immediately disembark. This means that they must be embarked...
Where were they when they arrived from reserves?
Certainly not on the board or they would never have been able to disembark from the drop pod they arrived in.

Immediately upon arriving from reserves the unit must disembark from the Pod, Coteaz may immediately take a shot at a unit arriving from reserves.

So when a Pod arrives the unit is embarked, if Coteaz take his shot after an embarked unit disembarks then he hasn’t taken his shot immediately so is no longer able to.

Except it's not the pod arriving from reserves, it's the unit. The pod is just a dedicated transport. Unless you announce "I'm rolling for a drop pod" (which is against the rules) then it is the Dreadnought you just rolled for which arrives from reserves, via the mechanism of a drop pod.

EDIT: Additionally, if the Pod is indeed arriving from reserves, then it is doing so in addition to the other unit and Coteaz can shoot twice.

Dashofpepper wrote:There *is* no precedent or similiar situation to let any unit in 40k interrupt another unit's action with their own.

There is no precedent for shooting out of turn at a unit arriving from reserves either, so that's hardly relevant. This is a unique rule.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:There *is* no precedent or similiar situation to let any unit in 40k interrupt another unit's action with their own.

There is no precedent for shooting out of turn at a unit arriving from reserves either, so that's hardly relevant. This is a unique rule.

The old Daemonhunters mystics could. When a drop-pod deepstruck, they could (per the FAQ) choose to shoot either the pod or the contents.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:When the drop pod arrives the passengers must immediately disembark. This means that they must be embarked...
Where were they when they arrived from reserves?
Certainly not on the board or they would never have been able to disembark from the drop pod they arrived in.

Immediately upon arriving from reserves the unit must disembark from the Pod, Coteaz may immediately take a shot at a unit arriving from reserves.

So when a Pod arrives the unit is embarked, if Coteaz take his shot after an embarked unit disembarks then he hasn’t taken his shot immediately so is no longer able to.

Except it's not the pod arriving from reserves, it's the unit. The pod is just a dedicated transport. Unless you announce "I'm rolling for a drop pod" (which is against the rules) then it is the Dreadnought you just rolled for which arrives from reserves, via the mechanism of a drop pod.

EDIT: Additionally, if the Pod is indeed arriving from reserves, then it is doing so in addition to the other unit and Coteaz can shoot twice.

You don't seem to be following this very well.

Firstly how could you possibly think that a Pod doesn't arrive from reserves? "
One "leaves it in reserves at the start of the game, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve." Page 94
And
"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with" Page 94 BRB
Then
"the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve." Page 94 How else is one meant to have a unit arrive from resrves than saying I'm rolling for X or Y now, now my ZZZ squad and the Tank.

So, the unit does arrive from reserve, so does the Pod. They, in fact, arrive together and after they have arrived from reserves the unit must deploy out of the Pod. Coteaz can't shoot the infantry/dread when it arrives from reserves as it is inside the drop pod and he can not draw LoS.

So, if the passengers must immediately disembark instantaneously with the landing of the pod then this seems to be acting as an interrupt...which dash seems to feel doesnt exist in the 40k universe.

And if we take the immediately in the pod rules to mean that it interrupts what else is going on, then why do we not look at coteaz's rule and see that it ALSO says immediately and would ALSO interrupt the action. So we then have two immediately/ interrupt rules hanging at the same time.


As has been pointed out several times in this thread, yes the pod and the passengers arrive from reserves together. Thats how the transport rules work, two units arrive together with one (or possibly two on a stormraven) passenger inside the transport.

..............................................................................................................



The whole idea of interrupts do need to be looked at for this rule however.

Coteaz's rule does say that if a unit arrives within the range and los then:

"Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out-of-sequence shooting attack against it"


With immediately and out of sequence being included that would appear to indicate that this is indeed an "interrupt" and should take place immediately.

If coteaz's rule is not an interrupt, then we must allow the arriving unit to complete its movement before he gets to shoot. This means that a vehicle could drive on from reserves within the 12" and in los but then proceed to drive out of range and/ or los. A whole string of units could avoid the shooting attack this way, simply by moving past Coteaz and then out of range.

Spore mines offer an example of an "interrupt" type effect that already exists in 40k. If a model moves into base contact with a mine it immediately explodes, interrupting the unit's movement phase.



Sliggoth

The out-of-sequence refers to the fact thats its the enemy's turn, not that it is an interrupt.
and the immediately in the pod rules doest interrupt anything, as Dash has stated before, the arrival (landing and disembarkation) of the unit(s) arriving from reserves in a Droppod is simultaneous

There is nothing in the rules that suggests that the landing of the pod and the disembarking of the passengers is simultaneous. Reread the pod rule:

"Once the Drop Pod has landed"

This clearly tells us that the pod has already landed. Disembarking happens after the pod has landed. The pod HAS to already have landed for the passengers to disembark because disembarking involves placing models within a 2" distance from the access ponts on the transport.




Sliggoth

There is also nothing in the rules that says Coteaz and his crew's immediately can't be just after the drop pods immediately. I can see, fluff wise. Everyone holding fire until the hatches blow.

We can argue this until the Emperor rots on his throne but we can fix the fact that this codex has the most unresolved rule questions of any recently put out. How did they not play test this situation. Most of the armies are marines in this game!

I say wait for the FAQ.

veritechc wrote:There is also nothing in the rules that says Coteaz and his crew's immediately can't be just after the drop pods immediately. I can see, fluff wise. Everyone holding fire until the hatches blow.

We can argue this until the Emperor rots on his throne but we can fix the fact that this codex has the most unresolved rule questions of any recently put out. How did they not play test this situation. Most of the armies are marines in this game!

I say wait for the FAQ.

Coteaz doesn't say that he may take an out-of-sequence shot simultaneously with the arrival of an enemy unit. It is immediately after their arrival.

When a drop pod touches down, it has not finished arriving yet - it has one more action tied into its deployment: Disgorging its contents. Once the deep striking unit has finished its deployment (IE, once the passengers have gotten out), Coteaz may immediately take a shot at any unit that has arrived from reserve and meets the other criteria.

Sliggoth wrote:
If coteaz's rule is not an interrupt, then we must allow the arriving unit to complete its movement before he gets to shoot. This means that a vehicle could drive on from reserves within the 12" and in los but then proceed to drive out of range and/ or los. A whole string of units could avoid the shooting attack this way, simply by moving past Coteaz and then out of range.

I don't want to get involved with the Drop Pod debate as I can see it both ways, but I don't understand the above.
Surely a DE Fighter can turboboost onto the table, arriving within 12" of Coteaz, and not be fired upon because it is now 36" away and out of the range of Coteaz's weapons.

Sliggoth wrote:There is nothing in the rules that suggests that the landing of the pod and the disembarking of the passengers is simultaneous. Reread the pod rule:

"Once the Drop Pod has landed"

This clearly tells us that the pod has already landed. Disembarking happens after the pod has landed. The pod HAS to already have landed for the passengers to disembark because disembarking involves placing models within a 2" distance from the access ponts on the transport.
Sliggoth

Dashofpepper wrote:

veritechc wrote:There is also nothing in the rules that says Coteaz and his crew's immediately can't be just after the drop pods immediately. I can see, fluff wise. Everyone holding fire until the hatches blow.

We can argue this until the Emperor rots on his throne but we can fix the fact that this codex has the most unresolved rule questions of any recently put out. How did they not play test this situation. Most of the armies are marines in this game!

I say wait for the FAQ.

Coteaz doesn't say that he may take an out-of-sequence shot simultaneously with the arrival of an enemy unit. It is immediately after their arrival.

When a drop pod touches down, it has not finished arriving yet - it has one more action tied into its deployment: Disgorging its contents. Once the deep striking unit has finished its deployment (IE, once the passengers have gotten out), Coteaz may immediately take a shot at any unit that has arrived from reserve and meets the other criteria.

As Dash said, it is immediately after their arrival that Coteaz takes his shots

Unit1126PLL wrote:
The old Daemonhunters mystics could. When a drop-pod deepstruck, they could (per the FAQ) choose to shoot either the pod or the contents.

Then we would be foolish to think it works some other way until/unless some future FAQ/errata changes things.

But dash also said the pod disgorges its contents. Thats not what happens, the passengers disembark, which is not an action performed by the pod.

The pod arrives, it doesnt eject then the passengers. Instead we are told that once the pod lands the passengers then perform an action to disembark. The pod and the passengers are two separate units, no matter how much some people seem to want them to be one unit.

The problem with the two immediately rules attempting to resolve then at the same time is indeed something to resolve.


Sliggoth

PS Most likely they will faq it to involve coteaz getting the option of which to shoot at, and thats how we are playing it locally until its faqed.

well the passengers disembarking and the pod disgorging its contents are the same phrase just using different words. Wheres the difference?
i dont think anyone is arguing they are the same unit, the patently arent. But they are both arriving from reserves together, and then immediately 'separate' when the pod lands.
but yes i agrees the two immediate rules are the issue and i doubt it will get resolved until an FAQ

The difference is that the pod disgorging its passengers would be an action taken by the pod, so it would mean that transport vehicles are taking the action. Disembarking by the passengers is a movement action undertaken by the passengers instead. It is critiacally important because of what sort of restrictions are placed on the units involved.

If a transport vehicle disgorged its passengers then the passengers would not have moved yet in the turn (barring some other rule that would count them as moving).

And we are told that the pod's passengers do disembark, so the passenegers then fall under all the limits and factors involved in the disembark rules. If the pod just spat them out different rules and limitations would apply.


............................................................................................

Looking at the old mystic rules those rules are a bit different from coteaz's rule. Mystics actually did act as an interrupt, getting to fire before the arriving unit gets to keep moving. Of course, mystics only were able to shoot at deep striking units, where Coteaz can shoot at units walking or driving onto the table so there are several differences.


Sliggoth

Revenent Reiko wrote:well the passengers disembarking and the pod disgorging its contents are the same phrase just using different words. Wheres the difference?

The difference is actually key to the "can't shoot the passengers" side.

The drop pod has finished moving. It's done, time for a new unit's action. That unit must be the embarked unit, but the point is the drop pod has finished it's movement. So there's nothing to interrupt. Drop pod is done moving. Now it's time for its passengers to take their movement phase, or for Coteaz to shoot the drop pod.

Perhaps. Both are trying to act simultaneously at this point.

see i wouldnt put it that way, the Droppod may have finished its movement, but within the movement of the Droppod is the disembarkation of the unit within.

I thought of a good analogy.

Black Templar Righteous Zeal: If the unit takes any wounds from shooting, it immediately moves towards the nearest enemy unit.

The Black Templar unit has three separate wound groups. A unit firing at them fires with a lascannon, a missile launcher, and three bolters.

The lascannon causes a wound, as does the missile launcher and two bolter shots. Since the unit is in the open, it gets no save against the Lascannon. The BT player allocates wounds, and before rolling any dice, removes the Lascannon wounded model accordingly.

At this point, he took a wound. Righteous Zeal causes the unit to move towards the nearest enemy unit. And...he doesn't get to use it yet. The unit shooting resolves ALL of its actions and the tageted unit resolves ALL of its saves until the entire sequence of actions is complete. THEN other abilities are triggered.

It comes down to this: May you have a drop pod on the table with embarked passengers? You may not. The sequence of actions engaged in the deployment is as follows:

1. Place marker (or drop pod)
2. Scatter.
3. Place Drop Pod
4. Blow Doors off (or just open the petals)
5. Disembark passengers
6. Action Completed

That sequence of actions may not be interrupted by another unit's action - save for potential mishaps, which affect placement. All units in 40k complete entire actions, perform their phase actions before anything else is done.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Revenent Reiko wrote:see i wouldnt put it that way, the Droppod may have finished its movement, but within the movement of the Droppod is the disembarkation of the unit within.

Or another way to put it is that the drop pod has finished its placement on the table, but has not finished its deployment action.

That list of actions works very well up to step 4. Then we run into the problem that the disembarking is being done by a different unit, in this case the passengers. So the list is actually two different units performing actions, not one unit performing actions. Once we are done with the pod we can then move on to another unit. So we have two separate units actions interwoven here.

In this case we have the pod and the passengers arrive. Its only after they arrive that we go on to the blow off the doors and then the passengers disembark.



Whether or not there is any sort of interrupt (either from the immediately in the disembark or the immediate in coteaz's rule) we still bump into the problem that when the pod and passengers arrive, the passengers arent in los for coteaz's rule.

Coteaz's rule is very clear. The unit has to arrive within 12" and in his LOS. Which simply isnt possible for a unit arriving inside a transport.




Sliggoth

The disembarking may be being done by a different unit, but we are still on the Drop Pod's action:

It forces the unit to disembark. The unit isn't disembarking due to its "activation" but due to the drop pod physically ejecting them.

Once again, please read the actual rule. There is nothing, absolutely no word, hint or even a vague whiff of the pod ejecting the passengers.

Once the pod has landed the passengers must then immediately disembark, as normal. The passengers are doing the disembarking, and we have a clear rule for what passengers disembarking involves.




Sliggoth