Ok chaps, lets get to it.

With the SNP storming to victory, the Scots may now be holding a referendum on an independent Scotland.

How will this work, your all educated people, so please lets not have any bitter whinging Scots making things up and deal with only facts.

Fact, the Scottish economy is not large enough to keep Scotland as it is, and they take a large sum north of the border. North sea oil accounts for about ten billion a year, but they take 30 billion from London.. correct?

So my question is, how would it work in actuality?

Would they need separate passports? Armed forces? The whole shebang?

And how would you feel about it?

Personally, I strongly dislike Scots and think that we should have another war.

But seriously, do you see it happening? What will the ramifications be? How will it work in practice?

Well, I'd imagine they'd join the EU. That'd certainly help out on the financial stakes, no small amount.

I would love to see them fall into a financial black hole - we could rebuild Hardian's Wall to keep starving Scots north of the border and preventing them from raiding our fish and chip shops

Plus we would stop getting their bloody stupid pretend money as change in the shops. Hurah!

Though I am with htj - they would probably join the EU and we would still end up paying for them.

Yup. They get you coming and going.

Would the EU accept another country that it would just have to bail out in a year?

Probably find that when push comes to shove the people of Scotland won't really want to break away, they are just hacked off. Most Scot's that I speak to don't think too highly of Mr Salmond and really have a strong desire to split away.

Adding to Matty's question though. The Scots have historically complained about Westminster being out of touch with them... how is that any different to some town / village in Cornwall, or Dorset or Yorkshire?

Yeah, im correct right? I mean, they really are not able to pay for their gak. They have an economy like fething Greece?

Im genuinelly curious, if they leave, we CAN stop giving them money right?!

Then build Hadrians wall again, and they can eat grass while I laugh.

My grandad on my dads side was a Scot, if he was still alive id fething deport him as well!

SilverMK2 wrote:I would love to see them fall into a financial black hole - we could rebuild Hardian's Wall to keep starving Scots north of the border and preventing them from raiding our fish and chip shops

Plus we would stop getting their bloody stupid pretend money as change in the shops. Hurah!

Though I am with htj - they would probably join the EU and we would still end up paying for them.

Careful what you wish for English. Without the Scots there is no Haggis. Without the Haggis its 1066 all over with some other Haggis free invader.

"Nelson shmelson. Who cares for that loser. We can't invade England because they'll hit us with the pomme de Haggis."
Emperor Napoleon, shivering at the thought of invading a Haggis armed England.

Wolfstan wrote:Probably find that when push comes to shove the people of Scotland won't really want to break away, they are just hacked off. Most Scot's that I speak to don't think too highly of Mr Salmond and really have a strong desire to split away.

Adding to Matty's question though. The Scots have historically complained about Westminster being out of touch with them... how is that any different to some town / village in Cornwall, or Dorset or Yorkshire?

I have to disagree as well Wolf, have you seen the results?! The SNP have WALKED it. And whats Mr Salmonds no1 point? Independance.

They want it alright, i just hope they dont get it, and then we still have to give them money for some bizarre reason. Historical guilt? I dunno, im just skeptical that Salmond doesnt have a plan, and i think that plan would involve getting all the money he needs off us.

Oh yeah, and would all my Scottish mates in the Royal Marines have to leave and go into some tiny Scottish army regiment that walk dogs and do nothing but pitch tents?!

I think they wont be happy about that.

mattyrm wrote:Yeah, im correct right? I mean, they really are not able to pay for their gak. They have an economy like fething Greece?

Im genuinelly curious, if they leave, we CAN stop giving them money right?!

Then build Hadrians wall again, and they can eat grass while I laugh.

My grandad on my dads side was a Scot, if he was still alive id fething deport him as well!

Probably not. You familiar with how the Commonwealth works? I'm thinking we'd see a similar thing happen, with us finiancially beholden to them until they get on their feet.

I think Wolfstan's right, though. Most Scots don't seriously want to break away, they just want Westminster to look out for their interests a bit more. Similar kind of situation in East and West Canada, I'm told.

Just think of the great ecconomic regeneration that all those labouring jobs will provide in the North if it comes to pass. Round up people at the Job Centre, pile them onto coaches and get them shifting stones, digging trenches etc and give them a wage at the end of the day

But in seriousness I don't think they will ever be suicidal enough to split. They just can't support themselves and no matter how much they complain they do get one hell of a lot from us.

If they do... well... I can imagine it to be much the same as boarder crossings in the rest of mainland Europe.

I just hope that we don't end up paying for their redesigned passports, crossing points or anything else that is involved in them upgrading themselves from a county.

You want to split, you foot the bill.

SilverMK2 wrote:Just think of the great ecconomic regeneration that all those labouring jobs will provide in the North if it comes to pass. Round up people at the Job Centre, pile them onto coaches and get them shifting stones, digging trenches etc and give them a wage at the end of the day

But in seriousness I don't think they will ever be suicidal enough to split. They just can't support themselves and no matter how much they complain they do get one hell of a lot from us.

If they do... well... I can imagine it to be much the same as boarder crossings in the rest of mainland Europe.

I just hope that we don't end up paying for their redesigned passports, crossing points or anything else that is involved in them upgrading themselves from a county.

You want to split, you foot the bill.

I think you underestimate the stupidity of the man in the street. The MPs know which side their bread is buttered, but not the average Joe.

They want it alright, and I hope they get it.

And then not one single penny gets sent over the border.

Things may be hard for them, but there are worse places that have made it. They may be able to build a tourist economy or something IDK. Scotts seem to be a tough hardy folk and I'm all for freedom. If they want to leave why stop them?

I'd be quite happy to let them have it.

Lived in Inverness for 7 years (went to school with Karen Gillan!), I think they'd do a pretty decent job of it... remember, the smaller the population, the more efficient the government.

Their economy isn't that bad. Tourism is pretty big, as is agriculture and there's a lot of exports of food and booze.

There's also the rather large amount of hydroelectricity and water they deliver south of the border too.

Of course, the really smart time to do this would have been *before* Thatcher nicked all their oil...

How did he steal their Oil? was he looking for terrorist or something?

I dont wanna stop them, I want them to feth off and leave me alone.

How did Thatcher steal their oil? Enlighten me please, im genuinelly curious as to your definition of stealing.

If by stealing you mean "paying it into the joint economy, but then tripling it and taking it back" then yes, Thatcher stole it.

sexiest_hero wrote:How did he steal their Oil? was he looking for terrorist or something?

She. Although admittedly, there were rumours...

Everyone needs an army, those are good jobs for those guys.

"Undefended borders," are not uncommon.

Gaa the first time I have ever missed a vote and the SNP storm to victory, bloody work distracting me.

An independence referendum is probably on the cards in the future, but I doubt we will see anything for this term. Just down to the economic situation at the moment it would be the death of the Scottish economy, with the withdrawal of English money and the expense of setting up Scotland own government institutions. Not to mention funding benefits, free prescriptions health care etc purely out of Scotland pocket.

Oil is no longer the magic get out of jail free card it was always touted as for independence with the North sea oil fields in there twilight years. The oil and gas fields straddle English, Danish and Norwegian territorial waters so how much Scotland gets remains to be seen.

An SNP run independent Scotland is a nightmare I dont want to become reality, all the SNP did in there last term was break there election promises and release the lockerbie bomber. Plus Alex Salmond got a face like a pie supper, cant stand the fat gurning ****

cpt_fishcakes wrote:Gaa the first time I have ever missed a vote and the SNP storm to victory, bloody work distracting me.

An independence referendum is probably on the cards in the future, but I doubt we will see anything for this term. Just down to the economic situation at the moment it would be the death of the Scottish economy, with the withdrawal of English money and the expense of setting up Scotland own government institutions. Not to mention funding benefits, free prescriptions health care etc purely out of Scotland pocket.

Oil is no longer the magic get out of jail free card it was always touted as for independence with the North sea oil fields in there twilight years. The oil and gas fields straddle English, Danish and Norwegian territorial waters so how much Scotland gets remains to be seen.

An SNP run independent Scotland is a nightmare I dont want to become reality, all the SNP did in there last term was break there election promises and release the lockerbie bomber. Plus Alex Salmond got a face like a pie supper, cant stand the fat gurning ****

Finally, a Scottish voice! The worst bit will come when you find out that one vote made the difference.

htj wrote:

Finally, a Scottish voice! The worst bit will come when you find out that one vote made the difference.

That would be hard to live with fortunately not the case.

The constituency I am went to the SNP last election and they increased there majority by a whopping 29% this time
Strange thing is when it comes to the British Parliament elections its a safe Labour seat, which illustrates the somewhat schizophrenic nature of voting in Scotland. A lot of people like the idea of Independence but are not convinced it would actually work in reality.

Devolution seems to be the best way to go. It means you get more general control of your region, but are still part of the bigger picture. People get to keep their national identity that way as well.

cpt_fishcakes wrote:

htj wrote:

Finally, a Scottish voice! The worst bit will come when you find out that one vote made the difference.

That would be hard to live with fortunately not the case.

The constituency I am went to the SNP last election and they increased there majority by a whopping 29% this time
Strange thing is when it comes to the British Parliament elections its a safe Labour seat, which illustrates the somewhat schizophrenic nature of voting in Scotland. A lot of people like the idea of Independence but are not convinced it would actually work in reality.

Still, you've a better chance than Cornwall.

Wolfstan wrote:Devolution seems to be the best way to go. It means you get more general control of your region, but are still part of the bigger picture. People get to keep their national identity that way as well.

Yet more layers of extra politicians? No thanks.

scotty land costs england a fortune and them being independent will be class , the oil and and gas field rights were signed to england years ago, and like the yanks thats all we are about really.
they will need to find cash for perscriptions as they are free for everyone, need to find cash for students as its free to be a uni student there. i hope they have a maths mastermind to sort it out then we can copy.

Battlecannon it phil wrote:scotty land costs england a fortune and them being independent will be class , the oil and and gas field rights were signed to england years ago, and like the yanks thats all we are about really.
they will need to find cash for perscriptions as they are free for everyone, need to find cash for students as its free to be a uni student there. i hope they have a maths mastermind to sort it out then we can copy.

Don't compare us to you guys please, we have sensitive feelings.

Just to go a wee bit OT (see what I did there?) - what is it with Scottish politicians and fish names? You have Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon. What's next? Dave Trout? Sarah Cod?

filbert wrote:Just to go a wee bit OT (see what I did there?) - what is it with Scottish politicians and fish names? You have Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon. What's next? Dave Trout? Sarah Cod?

Well its better than Balls I guess

How will this work, your all educated people, so please lets not have any bitter whinging Scots making things up and deal with only facts.

Good luck with getting people to even agree on what is a "fact", it's nearly impossible of late. People will argue about even the most well-established basic factual information these days if it doesn't match their ideology or conspiracy theories. See my thread on "the Skeptic System" here in Off-Topic and you'll see what I mean. As for everyone here being educated, have you seen some of the comments that appear on the forum? Based on the spelling issues alone, that's not likely true.

I have enormous fondness for the UK and I hope whatever happens there it works out well for everyone concerned. These are scary times nearly everywhere.

We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

What, you want some more? Bring it!

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

I have always loved the term "The American Empire". Lets colonize the UK!

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

What, you want some more? Bring it!

Frazzled wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

What, you want some more? Bring it!

I miss that man.

Most of the trouble makers are proberbly the Irish imagrents that support the IRA just take a look how celtic football club act to rangers and the rest of the uk. So all the Scots are not to blame but if they want indep let them more money for the rest of the uk england already gets screwed with the cash distribution

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

You can have Alabama, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and a few other of our more backward states to start.

Eventually you'll realize you really don't want them and you'll try to give them back.

Steu wrote:Most of the trouble makers are proberbly the Irish imagrents that support the IRA just take a look how celtic football club act to rangers and the rest of the uk. So all the Scots are not to blame but if they want indep let them more money for the rest of the uk england already gets screwed with the cash distribution

if I were Irish I'd be peaved at you right about now. But I'm not so I don't care.

htj wrote:Well, I'd imagine they'd join the EU. That'd certainly help out on the financial stakes, no small amount.

I'm not sure the EU would be in a position financially to help another "Celtic tiger". I'm not saying that Scotland has the same problems as Eire, Portugal and Greece, but they do have a much higher standard of social provision than in England, and could no longer rely on the Barnet Formula that makes the rest of the UK pay for it, if they seceded from the Union. I don't know whether North Seas revenues would cover the difference.

The big EU countries, Germany, France, and the UK to some degree, are getting a bit tired of bailing out profligate peripheral nations so their citizens can retire on full pensions at 55 while we slave on to 70 for a reduced pension.

Apart from that, if Scotland became a separate nation, obviously the rest of the UK would still have a close relationship with them, but they would need their own passports and various trappings of nationhood. There would have to be close cooperation on defence matters.

Scotland should join the USA just to spite the English. They'll rebuild Hadrian's wall out of McDonald's and Ford trucks.

As far as getting the colonies back... I think that we'll feel bad enough for you guys that we'll let you borrow some ships and give you a head start.

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

What, you want some more? Bring it!

Fool! France won't save you this time!

The closest date for any sort of independace pitch by the SNP is 2018, so its not as if this is going to be any real issue until then. I guess the primary reason that the SNP won by a landslide is obvious- long and short, Scots can't be bothered with another Thatcher-, but what the world seems to be ignoring is that independance isn't the view of all the SNP, nor may it be one of their short term goals- use it to get elected, bring it about a few terms in if at all. At the moment it'd be ridiculous to become independant. It may have been an option a decade ago, but seriously in the state the UK is in right now it'd only lead to another bail out and bugger up the UK's economy. The attitude that people take towards scots and nationalism though is a bit of a bore though. Hell, in this thread alone you've got the usual casual racism that we Scots invariably come up against south of the border an elsewhere. Pft, if independance comes, at least we have good MPs that'll make sure it comes at a point when the country can stand on its own two feet. =)

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

What, you want some more? Bring it!

Fool! France won't save you this time!

Pshaw!

We'll get Canada on our side!

I think we get the entire western hemisphere on our side thanks to the Monroe Doctrine.

Red rover, red rover, send Limey on over.

Scotland is a gakhole.

Thatcher was a devil whore and we will celebrate her overdue death.

If the world map was pink again we wouldn't have this problem...

Tad overboard for a family forum old boy...

Mate if I do recall correctly you said how you would have loved to torture OBL on this family forum...

So I think it is you that should perhaps simmer down.

Medium of Death wrote:Mate if I do recall correctly you said how you would have loved to torture OBL on this family forum...

So I think it is you that should perhaps simmer down.

Ah, but I never called him names

(That and not only did someone call me on it, but I think I was probably reported at least once for it, and I didn't even use offensive language)

Sticks and stones mate, sticks and stones...

Medium of Death wrote:Scotland is a gakhole.

Thatcher was a devil whore and we will celebrate her overdue death.

If the world map was pink again we wouldn't have this problem...

Kilts, Haggis and Thatcher strike a bit of a nerve with you?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Scotland is a gakhole.

Thatcher was a devil whore and we will celebrate her overdue death.

If the world map was pink again we wouldn't have this problem...

Kilts, Haggis and Thatcher strike a bit of a nerve with you?

Not really sure what your getting at. However...

Thatcher is the devil incarnate.

Haggis isn't that great, not bad from time to time though.

Kilts are worn at weddings, but best avoided otherwise.

I imagine it will turn out a lot like Quebec Independence did in Canada. A lot of threatening to leave, but never actually getting around to it as the concessions it gained from the Crown were too good to pass up.

Enjoy the next 30 years of hearing them clamour about leaving and a baloney political issue that'll get drummed up every time you go to select your area's biggest self-serving liar to represent you in London.

Wyrmalla wrote:The closest date for any sort of independace pitch by the SNP is 2018, so its not as if this is going to be any real issue until then. I guess the primary reason that the SNP won by a landslide is obvious- long and short, Scots can't be bothered with another Thatcher-, but what the world seems to be ignoring is that independance isn't the view of all the SNP, nor may it be one of their short term goals- use it to get elected, bring it about a few terms in if at all. At the moment it'd be ridiculous to become independant. It may have been an option a decade ago, but seriously in the state the UK is in right now it'd only lead to another bail out and bugger up the UK's economy. The attitude that people take towards scots and nationalism though is a bit of a bore though. Hell, in this thread alone you've got the usual casual racism that we Scots invariably come up against south of the border an elsewhere. Pft, if independance comes, at least we have good MPs that'll make sure it comes at a point when the country can stand on its own two feet. =)

You are aware that it is a reaction to the attitude SOME Scots have. Things like anyone but England and the very real racism you encounter in some areas.Most Scots don't hold this attitude, but most English have no problem with the Scottish

On a serious note though, look at the results of the local elections..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/council/html/ff.stm

Basically all of England is blue, but we have to have a coalition? I can only presume thats because we are still attached to Scotland. I want rid of them.

Oh and while im on...

Wyrmalla wrote: The attitude that people take towards scots and nationalism though is a bit of a bore though. Hell, in this thread alone you've got the usual casual racism that we Scots invariably come up against south of the border an elsewhere.

This, is absolute unmitigated gak.

My Grandad is a Scot, so on a personal level i have absolutely no issue with Scots, but when were stereotyping as a nation, i most definitely do. Some of my best friends in the RM are Scots, but its thanks to my long discussions with them, and my personal experience as a boy growing up, that allows me to feel I can take the moral high ground when it comes to arguing with bitter whinging Scotsmen.

As a lad growing up in England, being the biggest of the 4 in this shambolic union of dislike, we don't have an issue with the Irish, Scottish or Welsh. We have a simplistic attitude at 9 years old, blissfully unaware of such issues of division. We read Oor Wullie books, we watch supergran on TV, we supported Scotland and Ireland and Wales when England weren't playing in the football. I remember cheering the Republic of Ireland at every match in USA 94 for example..

Not so in Scotland. Your raise your children with hate. They learn hate for the "English" while still on the teat. You see 8 year old lads with myspace and youtube accounts "hate the English! "Hate the English" they shriek. You see 8 year old kids on T4 going "My name is Angus and my favourite felm is Braveheart cos we kill all the English"

Now, when you come of age, and you go to Northern Ireland and you get bricks thrown at you by 6 year old boys, then you really come to understand how hate works, and how its bred into children before they have an understanding of why they hate something in the first place. That's real hate for you, and real "racism".

Im not man enough to turn the other cheek, i respond in kind. If your referring to any of my comments as "casual racism" towards the Scots, then your exactly right, but it is in response to the knowledge that many Scots raise their children on hatred, and i really really hate that, because ive had to keep children from stabbing each other thanks to their degenerate parents breeding this loathing into them, and lets be honest, the English don't do it do they? Sure, some scummy white trash ingrates might teach their kids hatred against immigrants, or blacks, or whatever, or maybe even the French.

But not against their cousins North or South of the border, that's something you lot love to do.

As far as im concerned, its casual racism in response to childhood indoctrination, I feel i occupy the moral highground in this issue, and as a result yes, i genuinelly do dislike "The Scots" on a national level.

I want to rebuild Hadrians wall, force every Scotsman out of England (I prefer the Poles) boot them all out of the Army/Navy/Airforce and leave them all to it.

Not on a personal level of course, im merely enforcing some national stereotypes.

Wyrmalla wrote:The attitude that people take towards scots and nationalism though is a bit of a bore though. Hell, in this thread alone you've got the usual casual racism that we Scots invariably come up against south of the border an elsewhere. Pft, if independance comes, at least we have good MPs that'll make sure it comes at a point when the country can stand on its own two feet. =)

Well, we had a Scottish Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister (who later became Prime Minister) for over 10 years just a short while ago. We paid MILLIONS (10-40 times original estimate) to build the most ugly building in the world just to keep some more over paid, lying scum in (rather than putting them all in jail where they probably belong).

Together they helped completely destroy our economy, education system, healthcare system, armed forces, world reputation, etc...

I have absolutely nothing against the average Scot - the majority I have met have been pretty cool people and most of the "casual racism" is just that - casual banter engaged in by both sides (also note that "Scottish" is not a race). I also have to agree with the gist of what Mattyrm said - I would support Scotland in the football or rugby (well, when they can make it past the first round ) but I have never heard of that being recipricated. Hell, I know some Scottish people who would cheer for FRANCE over England. France? Really?

I have nothing against the area known as Scotland, however one chooses to define it, however, calls for independence make no sense (for Scotland anyway, England would probably benefit from it financially) and are unlikely to even in 10-20 years. As much as your politicians spout about it, they will never have it so good if they split - the English gravy train would stop and their ability to vote in England only related issues would cease.

Can you imagine Scotland paying for all the things English tax money is currently handing to you on a platter? You would need 90% taxation to support it.

Melissia wrote:

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

You can have Alabama, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and a few other of our more backward states to start.

Eventually you'll realize you really don't want them and you'll try to give them back.

We would turn them into the new Australia - some hot wasteland where we would dump convicts. Then in a couple of hundred years we might come back as tourists to enjoy the weather and primitive "culture" (AKA beer and surfing )

SilverMK2 wrote:

We would turn them into the new Australia - some hot wasteland where we would dump convicts. Then in a couple of hundred years we might come back as tourists to enjoy the weather and primitive "culture" (AKA beer and surfing )

but thats what makes us awesome right? .... right?

Devolution is coming...it's just a matter of time, for Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.

mattyrm wrote:On a serious note though, look at the results of the local elections..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/council/html/ff.stm

Basically all of England is blue, but we have to have a coalition? I can only presume thats because we are still attached to Scotland. I want rid of them.

Oh and while im on...

Wyrmalla wrote: The attitude that people take towards scots and nationalism though is a bit of a bore though. Hell, in this thread alone you've got the usual casual racism that we Scots invariably come up against south of the border an elsewhere.

This, is absolute unmitigated gak.

My Grandad is a Scot, so on a personal level i have absolutely no issue with Scots, but when were stereotyping as a nation, i most definitely do. Some of my best friends in the RM are Scots, but its thanks to my long discussions with them, and my personal experience as a boy growing up, that allows me to feel I can take the moral high ground when it comes to arguing with bitter whinging Scotsmen.

As a lad growing up in England, being the biggest of the 4 in this shambolic union of dislike, we don't have an issue with the Irish, Scottish or Welsh. We have a simplistic attitude at 9 years old, blissfully unaware of such issues of division. We read Oor Wullie books, we watch supergran on TV, we supported Scotland and Ireland and Wales when England weren't playing in the football. I remember cheering the Republic of Ireland at every match in USA 94 for example..

Not so in Scotland. Your raise your children with hate. They learn hate for the "English" while still on the teat. You see 8 year old lads with myspace and youtube accounts "hate the English! "Hate the English" they shriek. You see 8 year old kids on T4 going "My name is Angus and my favourite felm is Braveheart cos we kill all the English"

Now, when you come of age, and you go to Northern Ireland and you get bricks thrown at you by 6 year old boys, then you really come to understand how hate works, and how its bred into children before they have an understanding of why they hate something in the first place. That's real hate for you, and real "racism".

Im not man enough to turn the other cheek, i respond in kind. If your referring to any of my comments as "casual racism" towards the Scots, then your exactly right, but it is in response to the knowledge that many Scots raise their children on hatred, and i really really hate that, because ive had to keep children from stabbing each other thanks to their degenerate parents breeding this loathing into them, and lets be honest, the English don't do it do they? Sure, some scummy white trash ingrates might teach their kids hatred against immigrants, or blacks, or whatever, or maybe even the French.

But not against their cousins North or South of the border, that's something you lot love to do.

As far as im concerned, its casual racism in response to childhood indoctrination, I feel i occupy the moral highground in this issue, and as a result yes, i genuinelly do dislike "The Scots" on a national level.

I want to rebuild Hadrians wall, force every Scotsman out of England (I prefer the Poles) boot them all out of the Army/Navy/Airforce and leave them all to it.

Not on a personal level of course, im merely enforcing some national stereotypes.

What is the sentiment within the UK towards past persecution of the Irish and Scots by the English? Something like 'the past is the past', 'we're all one happy family now'? Maybe memories of this have something to do with the latest election results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

What, you want some more? Bring it!

That's goddamned right!

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

What, you want some more? Bring it!

Fool! France won't save you this time!

Pshaw!

We'll get Canada on our side!

Canada would be on our side because I think the queen is stil head of state over there, I think its the same with Australia but I'm not sure.

heacy hitter wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:We should put our foot down and stop all this independence nonsense. It's time to take back the colonies, starting with America.

What, you want some more? Bring it!

Fool! France won't save you this time!

Pshaw!

We'll get Canada on our side!

Canada would be on our side because I think the queen is stil head of state over there, I think its the same with Australia but I'm not sure.

You can have Canada, but lets flip a coin for Australia.

Nocculum wrote:Devolution is coming...it's just a matter of time, for Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.

Well, their finest hour was quite a few years ago.

What is the sentiment within the UK towards past persecution of the Irish and Scots by the English? Something like 'the past is the past', 'we're all one happy family now'? Maybe memories of this have something to do with the latest election results.

PERSECUTION?! What the feth do you know about it? Please, explain to me how the English have persecuted the Scottish and Irish.

You know, coming from the country you do, you have a nerve talking about 'persecution' of the people you share your country with. The British Isles have a history of conflict - you can drive across our island in less than half a day. It's small. That small island is shared by countries which have had vastly different cultures at various times, and there has always been a struggle for regional power, these struggles are a product of their time. Basically England usually wins. That does NOT add up to 'persecution', and I would advise you to conduct yourself with greater intelligence when discussing issues such as these, or better still, not discussing them at all, as you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Even when talking about the Irish Potato Famine, that too was a product of it's time - as result of terrible government policy, as opposed to intentional genocide - though it was undoubtedly a tragedy, and a shameful episode. However, other countries have treated their colonies with much, much more malice than the British did. Ever hear of the Belgian Congo? Or Germany's African colonies? Hell, what about the American expansion west, if you want to talk about persecution?

Ah, but you want to talk about BRITISH persecution, in a thread that isn't about that.


On-Topic: People only voted SNP because Salmond made empty promises to increase spending (with who's money? Oh, I see...) during a time when the British government has to make deep cuts. Problem is, he's in power now, and has no choice but to renege on those promises. As soon as the economy starts to improve, the SNP will go back to being an ethnic nationalist party run by a social inadequate with a wonky face, and will be paid little attention. Just like the BNP.

They will never secede. Thread over.

Being a Scot myself; from Glasgow; the reason why the SNP won is pretty simple. They are the party with the best connection to Scotland. All parties are full of lying, cheating scum...but to have a party thats pretty focused on your country is the best one to choose; when the party in Westminster knows absolutely nothing about Scotland.

Some of the things here are quite hilariously wrong. There is a hate against England; but not so much against the 'common folk' like us. Its more a hate of institutions (like the royal family; who **** our natural heritage) and parties like the Tories; filled with inbred Eton *******s like Cameron. I'm actually friends with quite a lot of English folk. For some people; there is a historical side to the hatred. That can't be changed really though; once a bed is made you lie in it.

Another thing...people seem to forget that Scotland is a pretty good place for Research and Science in general. Alot of cutting edge research is done here; we're one of the best inventive people in the world. If anyone doesn't believe that look at some of the things we've made that people use all over the world now. I agree; just now we can't pay for ourselves. But eventually we will be able to.

I agree; we probably won't pull from the Union. Which is why I think its best to absolutely milk England for all they've got.

I just hope we're part of the union for long enough to see the Royal Family get the chop....France really knew what to do with their monarchs. But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

You that confident alby?

They will NEVER secede?!

I saw on BBC yesterday that they are looking at a referendum on it.

If they can keep getting money out of us, they absolutely will.

mattyrm wrote:You that confident alby?

They will NEVER secede?!

I saw on BBC yesterday that they are looking at a referendum on it.

If they can keep getting money out of us, they absolutely will.

I wouldn't be so sure. Didn't you notice that it would be in 5 years time? That to me means he's playing for time, either to bring people around to it or come up with another delay.

If they secede, no way should they keep getting money out of it. Frankly, the situation as it stands is bloody unfair- money made in England is providing (for example) free teritary education for people in Scotland who have political sway in England which doesn't go the other way. Totally arse backwards.
Similar to the situation in my home country with EU money for many years. I hope they don't secede, but if they do, I would be skeptical that the EU would take them in. There are a good few criteria to meet before you get accepted and you can bet Brussels will go through it with a fine toothed comb to keep Scotland out right now.

I'd invite Scotland as the 51 State of America.

Great jumping off point for invading the rest of the EU.

My biggest fear is that Scotland will secede, and then.
a) My tuition will go up.
b) I'll have to reapply for another damn student visa.

So I'm all for the, 'invite to become the 51st state' thing. I'm sure Mel Gibson can make 'Feth the English 3' which has the Americans and the Scots teaming up against the English or something.

ChrisWWII wrote:
So I'm all for the, 'invite to become the 51st state' thing. I'm sure Mel Gibson can make 'Feth the English 3' which has the Americans and the Scots teaming up against the English or something.

It will be called Bravefield Earth, wherein the evil British aliens invade America, and the timely intervention of the Scottish causes the entire southern half of the British Isles to explode, all the while the America company Hasbro secretly buys out GW and transfers all production of models to China.

Steu wrote:Most of the trouble makers are proberbly the Irish imagrents that support the IRA just take a look how celtic football club act to rangers and the rest of the uk. So all the Scots are not to blame but if they want indep let them more money for the rest of the uk england already gets screwed with the cash distribution

I know that this is the Hate Blender, but please refrain from slagging off an entire ethnic group.

Thank you.

Either I've got thin skin or some of this is crossing some lines.
I'll wash my hands of this thread before I see more.

Mr Hyena wrote: If anyone doesn't believe that look at some of the things we've made that people use all over the world now. I agree; just now we can't pay for ourselves. But eventually we will be able to.

I agree; we probably won't pull from the Union. Which is why I think its best to absolutely milk England for all they've got.

Right, so you think that the best way to gain independence is by being financially dependent on England. You're a genius.



GDP of Scotland = £86.3 billion. That's just above Angola, which is ranked 61st in the world by GDP.

We make more than that just from tourism in England. Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

I just hope we're part of the union for long enough to see the Royal Family get the chop....France really knew what to do with their monarchs.

The same thing we did to yours, you mean? Again, never going to happen.

But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

Their ours now.

Albatross wrote: Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

What could Scotland use for their own capital and financing? Perhaps that could help wean them off the UK economic system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland#Natural_resources

Albatross wrote:PERSECUTION?! What the feth do you know about it? Please, explain to me how the English have persecuted the Scottish and Irish.

•In York, excluding Sundays, it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow.

Besides that you have the whole "Irish eat horse meat" insults of the past. That along with using them as a slave force in Antigua and some other Caribbean islands.

Then there was Braveheart, the fact that you gave Mel Gibson to act in was a horrible atrocity against God.

Albatross wrote:

But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

Their ours now.

Queen Victoria single handedly invented the Scottish break holiday by living in those castles for a bit. The Scottish tourism industry is a German, er English, invention.

Yeah but all that animosity is yonks ago and really, nobody should care about it beyond noting it and getting on with their lives. The rich bastards in every country are bastards to everyone else around them, it's not a nationality thing. It just sometimes suits the rich bastards to make out that it is so we keep squabbling and don't realise who's pulling the strings.

Albatross wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote: If anyone doesn't believe that look at some of the things we've made that people use all over the world now. I agree; just now we can't pay for ourselves. But eventually we will be able to.

I agree; we probably won't pull from the Union. Which is why I think its best to absolutely milk England for all they've got.

Right, so you think that the best way to gain independence is by being financially dependent on England. You're a genius.



GDP of Scotland = £86.3 billion. That's just above Angola, which is ranked 61st in the world by GDP.

We make more than that just from tourism in England. Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

I just hope we're part of the union for long enough to see the Royal Family get the chop....France really knew what to do with their monarchs.

The same thing we did to yours, you mean? Again, never going to happen.

But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

Their ours now.

I'm relieved we kicked you all to the curb years ago. I just find it sad that we couldn't really steal anything castly on our way out. We had to steal all of our heritage and names from a civilization that didn't have good stonework.

no problems with Scotland going independant as long as they manage their own finances and England stops sending money north of the border.

Its sad how its £9k student fee's in England, free in Scotland
Its sad how its £7.40 odd for medicines in England, free in Scotland :(
but then even though this is a bad inequality its alot down to our own government :(

As for the Scots themselves, have no issues with them (Aside from my ex *grumbles). People are people wherever you go. At least they voted the t***'s out unlike us who while punishing the Lib Dems didnt seem to notice the it's the Tory's doing most of the real crap. (But then when you have a choice between blue excrement, red faeces and yellow turds what can you vote for >.<

Right, so you think that the best way to gain independence is by being financially dependent on England. You're a genius.

Thats not what I said. I said if we can't get independence the next best thing is to merely get more income from England. Then again...the whole 'financially dependent' thing wouldn't have been a problem if things were done differently in the past; and that our culture wasn't utterly destroyed.

We make more than that just from tourism in England. Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

I'm not british. I put faith in my country before I'd put faith in england and its inbred, degenerate royal family.

Their ours now.

Stolen, yes.

PERSECUTION?! What the feth do you know about it? Please, explain to me how the English have persecuted the Scottish and Irish.

The dismantling of scottish culture at the time isn't persecution?

Lets just stop this pretence of politeness Hyena, you irrationally hate me due to childhood indoctrination and I have responded in kind and hate you back. I'm comfortable with this equation.

I want another war.

We have the Royal Marines, The Paras, the SBS, the SAS, and you guys have the 4/5 Royal Highland Dog walking regiment. We shall crush you beneath our iron heels and eat your babies. Happy fething days!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:

The dismantling of scottish culture at the time isn't persecution?

Who is there who actually lives in 2011 England, that personally persecuted "the Scottish"?

Thats not what I said. I said if we can't get independence the next best thing is to merely get more income from England. Then again...the whole 'financially dependent' thing wouldn't have been a problem if things were done differently in the past; and that our culture wasn't utterly destroyed.

Has scotland ever really maintained a good (relative) standard of living or semblance of strong cultural national identity without it being imposed on it by others? Historically it hasn't been a treasure trove of "working" culture from the perspective of western teaching.

I'm not british. I put faith in my country before I'd put faith in england and its inbred, degenerate royal family.

Inbreeding wasn't an irregular occurrence amongst scottish nobility and it's genepool is somewhat shallow as a "people" (evidenced by the strong and unusual hereditary traits of hair color and complexion found virtually no where else). Pride in country is nice and all but you sound like you're just a bitter young man looking for an offense (in this case one thats not yours to feel) so that you can rebel.

Stolen, yes.

Can't you travel to most of them and tour? It's not like castles are functional or meaningful and as artifacts of war they generally belong to whoever has them now (which is you given that you don't have a country and neither does england).

The dismantling of scottish culture at the time isn't persecution?

Was and is are two different words. You people get the red carpet rolled out for you and you spit in everyones faces these days. Times sucked a century ago. Hell, times were bad sixty years ago (but that was hardly the fault of the english). Nows not then and if you tried to be autonomous you would collapse. It's time to start blaming that "culture" that the english is trying so hard to "destroy" for why your having such a tough time with your free tuition and and infrastructure.

Lets just stop this pretence of politeness Hyena, you irrationally hate me due to childhood indoctrination and I have responded in kind and hate you back. I'm comfortable with this equation.

'pretence'? 'indoctrination'?

I don't hate you. I get on well with many english folk. I just hate your country for the irreparable damage that was done.

We have the Royal Marines, The Paras, the SBS, the SAS, and you guys have the 4/5 Royal Highland Dog walking regiment. We shall crush you beneath our iron heels and eat your babies. Happy fething days!

Good luck losing the most inventive people of the UK.

Has scotland ever really maintained a good (relative) standard of living or semblance of strong cultural national identity without it being imposed on it by others? Historically it hasn't been a treasure trove of "working" culture from the perspective of western teaching.

I don't think it really matters which; Scottish culture was Scottish culture until English culture was forced apon.

Inbreeding wasn't an irregular occurrence amongst scottish nobility and it's genepool is somewhat shallow as a "people" (evidenced by the strong and unusual hereditary traits of hair color and complexion found virtually no where else). Pride in country is nice and all but you sound like you're just a bitter young man looking for an offense (in this case one thats not yours to feel) so that you can rebel.

I don't think its anybodies place to tell me (or people like me) what I can and can not think. Bitter? hardly. But the election results really show things better than words on a forum post. Its a fact that the SNP is the party with the only interest (And connection) to Scotland. Its obvious the Scottish people are going to vote for that; much like how Cameron and his ilk are only interested in England. (Which is fine. For england)

Can't you travel to most of them and tour? It's not like castles are functional or meaningful and as artifacts of war they generally belong to whoever has them now (which is you given that you don't have a country and neither does england).

I'm meaning more the ones that the english queen and her brood treat as their private holiday homes. They're still parts of scottish heritage no matter how much they think they own them.

Was and is are two different words. You people get the red carpet rolled out for you and you spit in everyones faces these days. Times sucked a century ago. Hell, times were bad sixty years ago (but that was hardly the fault of the english). Nows not then and if you tried to be autonomous you would collapse. It's time to start blaming that "culture" that the english is trying so hard to "destroy" for why your having such a tough time with your free tuition and and infrastructure.

Those who forget history are fools. Heck; the closer we get to leaving the union allows for a bigger development of scottish culture.

I don't think it really matters which; Scottish culture was Scottish culture until English culture was forced apon.

If you're of the opinion that culture is paramount and the good of the people living within it secondary then I suppose it doesn't matter that scottish culture is largely minor local and familial customs and a history of tribal sectarian grief and strife. Cultures can be dysfunctional objectively by any number of standards and the historic Scottish one was by quite a few. Why you would want that back I don't know.

I don't think its anybodies place to tell me (or people like me) what I can and can not think. Bitter? hardly. But the election results really show things better than words on a forum post. Its a fact that the SNP is the party with the only interest (And connection) to Scotland. Its obvious the Scottish people are going to vote for that; much like how Cameron and his ilk are only interested in England. (Which is fine. For england)

Thus is the problem with having two autonomous and "equally important" "cultures" within a hegemonic group. They want theirs and you want yours. Now, see, the thing is that they give a hell of a lot more to scotland then it gives back all the while it gripes and moans. As an outsider totally disconnected from the strife (and thus free from the emotional side that can strain logic) it appears that a somewhat secluded but large minority group wants to be free for the sake of being free despite being given every reasonably concession it asks for to the detriment of the giving party (and despite logic since the resulting independent state would immediately fail). In many parts of the world thats called being childish. I suppose as an American I know compulsive and unreasonable whining well. I see it constantly.

I'm meaning more the ones that the english queen and her brood treat as their private holiday homes. They're still parts of scottish heritage no matter how much they think they own them.

At this point they're part of english heritage too. You don't always get to keep what your ancestors "owned", sometimes you move on and stop whining about it.

Those who forget history are fools. Heck; the closer we get to leaving the union allows for a bigger development of scottish culture.

And those who believe history exists presently are deluded. You didn't experience that history, nor did your parents. You just want more then you deserve on the backs of the dead while being given more then you earn by people who just want you to stop throwing fits.

Mr Hyena wrote:

I don't hate you. I get on well with many english folk. I just hate your country for the irreparable damage that was done.

I don't think it really matters which; Scottish culture was Scottish culture until English culture was forced apon.

The above and much of the other stuff you’ve said sounds like the usual SNP version of history nonsense. Whats England imposed on us? certainly not our dominant language or culture.

Scotland goes out of its way to destroy its own culture and the SNP are the embodiment of the hideous tartan shortbread tin twee nonsense that prevails today. Were Scotland was a land of Gaelic speaking tartan clad Highlanders mercilessly put upon by the despicable English devils. Scotland dominant culture history that of the non Gaelic speaking Scots has been all but replaced by a fiction created by Walter Scott. Fortunately there seams to be an effort to redress the balance, the recent History of Scotland from the BBC is a good example.

Having had an SNP member as a history teacher I feel quite strongly about this stuff, her classes were not lessons but an attempt to indoctrinate us into her “the English caused all of Scotland woes ever” ideology. She even blamed the deaths in the Clydeside Blitz on England for going to war with Germany in the first place.

I spent my Childhood in the NE of England were there was an attitude to the Scots similar to some Scots have about England. For much of the Norths history the Scots were the imperialistic tyrants who came over the border to pillage and slaughter. Something worth considering before playing the victim card, history is a two way street.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm relieved we kicked you all to the curb years ago. I just find it sad that we couldn't really steal anything castly on our way out.

http://www.howdencastle.com/

halonachos wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm relieved we kicked you all to the curb years ago. I just find it sad that we couldn't really steal anything castly on our way out.

http://www.howdencastle.com/

That castle is lame.

ShumaGorath wrote:

halonachos wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm relieved we kicked you all to the curb years ago. I just find it sad that we couldn't really steal anything castly on our way out.

http://www.howdencastle.com/

That castle is lame.

1927!?! I've got shirts older than that.

A proper castle.

ShumaGorath wrote:
If you're of the opinion that culture is paramount and the good of the people living within it secondary then I suppose it doesn't matter that scottish culture is largely minor local and familial customs and a history of tribal sectarian grief and strife. Cultures can be dysfunctional objectively by any number of standards and the historic Scottish one was by quite a few. Why you would want that back I don't know.

Nationalism is rational only very rarely.

ShumaGorath wrote:
At this point they're part of english heritage too. You don't always get to keep what your ancestors "owned", sometimes you move on and stop whining about it.

Yep.

Mr Hyena wrote:Those who forget history are fools. Heck; the closer we get to leaving the union allows for a bigger development of scottish culture.

You already have Scottish culture by necessity.

Dogma gets it, the one simple point I would make is simply this. We have had good relations for fething ages, some of the most patriotically British and expansionist colonialists were Scottish, and contrary to what many Scottish people seem to think, the Battle of Bannockburn was in 1314, not 1996.

Its really absurd, If we disliked nations that we once had a war with, nobody would be mates with anyone.

And I wouldn't have went into Iraq alongside the USMC, we would have stayed in Kuwait and argued about the war of 1812 until Saddam died of old age.

The above and much of the other stuff you’ve said sounds like the usual SNP version of history nonsense. Whats England imposed on us? certainly not our dominant language or culture.

Laws were made after the battle of Cullloden (including the Dress Act, Disarming Act and Clan Act) all had a pretty massive effect on Scottish culture.

If you're of the opinion that culture is paramount and the good of the people living within it secondary then I suppose it doesn't matter that scottish culture is largely minor local and familial customs and a history of tribal sectarian grief and strife. Cultures can be dysfunctional objectively by any number of standards and the historic Scottish one was by quite a few. Why you would want that back I don't know.

*shrugs* Because its still ours; more than the currently diluted english culture we have.

Thus is the problem with having two autonomous and "equally important" "cultures" within a hegemonic group. They want theirs and you want yours. Now, see, the thing is that they give a hell of a lot more to scotland then it gives back all the while it gripes and moans. As an outsider totally disconnected from the strife (and thus free from the emotional side that can strain logic) it appears that a somewhat secluded but large minority group wants to be free for the sake of being free despite being given every reasonably concession it asks for to the detriment of the giving party (and despite logic since the resulting independent state would immediately fail). In many parts of the world thats called being childish. I suppose as an American I know compulsive and unreasonable whining well. I see it constantly.

Its not really childish. Its more that people are sick and tired of Westminster being out of touch with Scotland; and the devolution scottish government not having enough power. I'm sure Americans must have at one time at least; had a president that completely did not represent any of the people. Thats what its been like for quite some time.

At this point they're part of english heritage too. You don't always get to keep what your ancestors "owned", sometimes you move on and stop whining about it.

Sure we could; though it just points out how little culture we have left.

And those who believe history exists presently are deluded. You didn't experience that history, nor did your parents. You just want more then you deserve on the backs of the dead while being given more then you earn by people who just want you to stop throwing fits.

History influences the future. Things wouldn't be like this if things were were done different in the past.

Dogma gets it, the one simple point I would make is simply this. We have had good relations for fething ages, some of the most patriotically British and expansionist colonialists were Scottish, and contrary to what many Scottish people seem to think, the Battle of Bannockburn was in 1314, not 1996.

*Shrugs* Its possible for someone to still be angry/dislike what happened in the past and still be pleasant. Many people here haven't, and won't, forget. Doesn't mean they're gonna go on and on about it all the time though.

If you want to improve relations; vote in someone who doesn't hate scotland (like Cameron does; the prick.)

We've just had a Scottish PM and Chancellor.....


You buffoon.

Albatross wrote:We've just had a Scottish PM and Chancellor.....


You buffoon.

Yeah and they were out of touch with here. They knew nothing and did nothing for the problems we had here.

Mr Hyena wrote:Yeah and they were out of touch with here. They knew nothing and did nothing for the problems we had here.

And you think things are rosy in the rest of the UK?

Seriously, take a look at what you are saying, and what Scotland has got out of UK membership (even above and beyond what the rest of the UK has got) and then say that you are not getting the better deal.

Free prescriptions, and Free university thanks to 31 billion pounds a year from Westminster.

Salmond knows the facts, thats why he is saying one thing and doing another.

Cant the English have a referendum and boot Scotland out first?

Seriously, take a look at what you are saying, and what Scotland has got out of UK membership (even above and beyond what the rest of the UK has got) and then say that you are not getting the better deal.

Nobody is saying we aren't getting the better deal (deserved mind...as industry here would have been better if England didnt mess with it).

What we're saying is the devolved government doesn't have enough power to fully represent the wishes of the scottish people...and if your views arent being properly listened to (on a country-wide basis) then whats the point being in a union? (The labour party and Tory scum know nothing literally about anywhere here)

Free prescriptions, and Free university thanks to 31 billion pounds a year from Westminster.

Salmond knows the facts, thats why he is saying one thing and doing another.

Cant the English have a referendum and boot Scotland out first?

You should complain to your own government for free university; its one of the most progressive ideas of this age; and is unsurprising. Scotland has always been for opening up higher education to less privilaged people; long before England did so.

Have your referendum if you want; I dare say it won't cause much fuss here.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Seriously, take a look at what you are saying, and what Scotland has got out of UK membership (even above and beyond what the rest of the UK has got) and then say that you are not getting the better deal.

Nobody is saying we aren't getting the better deal (deserved mind...as industry here would have been better if England didnt mess with it).

How? We invented heavy industry!

Nevermind, it's a totally stupid thing to say, as Scotland benefited immensely from being part of the Union during the industrial revolution. What industry do you think you would even have if you weren't attached to us, anyway?

What we're saying is the devolved government doesn't have enough power to fully represent the wishes of the scottish people...

Well, of course not. The wishes of the Scottish people would be to live pretty much how they are now, but with political independence. The thing is, that's not possible because Scotland couldn't support the infrastructure it has now by itself. So what you want is freedom and prosperity, but for us to pick up the tab? Why should the British government and the English tax-payer allow you that? Are you stoned or something?

and if your views arent being properly listened to (on a country-wide basis) then whats the point being in a union? (The labour party and Tory scum know nothing literally about anywhere here)

You know, you are sounding increasingly like a moody teenager: 'Waaaaa! We're not being listened to! Waaaaaaa! You don't understand us!

Just grow up - you have your democratic right to elect your local government and members of Parliament, which for most of the last century and beyond has been Labour, Tory or Whig (latterly Lib Dem). In fact, Scotland has been a Labour stronghold for some time, isn't that actually what this thread is about?

Free prescriptions, and Free university thanks to 31 billion pounds a year from Westminster.

Salmond knows the facts, thats why he is saying one thing and doing another.

Cant the English have a referendum and boot Scotland out first?

You should complain to your own government for free university;

It's not free, someone has to pay for it. In your case, that someone is us.

Mr Hyena wrote:

The above and much of the other stuff you’ve said sounds like the usual SNP version of history nonsense. Whats England imposed on us? certainly not our dominant language or culture.

Laws were made after the battle of Cullloden (including the Dress Act, Disarming Act and Clan Act) all had a pretty massive effect on Scottish culture.

Hoped you’d bring up Culloden a subject often twisted and perverted into your Evil England poor plucky Scotland nationalistic nonsense.

What massive effect did these have? The vast majority of Scots were neither Highlanders or Gaelic speaking. Highland culture and language made a resurgence again in the 19th century, so it was far from destroyed by Culloden. It was the industrial revolution and Greedy Scottish landowners that brought Highland society to an end. Despite the best effort of us Lowlanders to wipe them out since 1493

I hate to see fellow Scots wallowing in that woe is me its all England fault victim mentality.

Learn something about actual Scottish History instead of distorting little bits of it because it fits your ideology. We live in a far more interesting country than the Nationalists would have you believe.

Mr Hyena wrote:
*shrugs* Because its still ours; more than the currently diluted english culture we have.

You know they named a fallacy after this sort of argument...


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Albatross wrote:
Well, of course not. The wishes of the Scottish people would be to live pretty much how they are now, but with political independence. The thing is, that's not possible because Scotland couldn't support the infrastructure it has now by itself. So what you want is freedom and prosperity, but for us to pick up the tab? Why should the British government and the English tax-payer allow you that? Are you stoned or something?

The larger issue is that a fractured UK creates a number of unique economic issues that don't need to exist, and which negatively affect not only Scots, but also the English, and every other member of your glorious Kingdom (but France is better).

In the face of material concerns, questions of independence usually just get harrumphed off the stage by an old man smoking a pipe, sitting in one of these.

Yeah, funnily enough, the bit about a Scottish Prime Minister put me in mind of the 'No True Scotsman'....

I hate to see fellow Scots wallowing in that woe is me its all England fault victim mentality.

Learn something about actual Scottish History instead of distorting little bits of it because it fits your ideology. We live in a far more interesting country than the Nationalists would have you believe.

Melting pot culture doesn't leave a strong national identity however. It may be too early to break away; but least the SNP is doing something to resurrect some of our old culture. Can't say the same for labour or the tories after what they did to us. Hate it all you like...but a lot of Scots also hate and have wanted to regain a good, strong national identity.

Just grow up - you have your democratic right to elect your local government and members of Parliament, which for most of the last century and beyond has been Labour, Tory or Whig (latterly Lib Dem). In fact, Scotland has been a Labour stronghold for some time, isn't that actually what this thread is about?

Ask why Labour didn't get in. The SNP can't just sneak in without a reason for all the votes they got. It reflects a powerful focus of the people's wishes.

Well, of course not. The wishes of the Scottish people would be to live pretty much how they are now, but with political independence. The thing is, that's not possible because Scotland couldn't support the infrastructure it has now by itself. So what you want is freedom and prosperity, but for us to pick up the tab? Why should the British government and the English tax-payer allow you that? Are you stoned or something?

So heres the problem. Why should we vote for a party who doesn't reflect anything of scottish interests; instead of the SNP? Until this question can be answered, there won't be peace with this issue. If your so concerned with what the english tax-payer pays for; then why are you seriously concerned about keeping us in the union anyway?

The only way to keep this 'union' going is to stop putting issues under the carpet and give increased powers to all devolved governments.

Melting pot culture doesn't leave a strong national identity however. It may be too early to break away; but least the SNP is doing something to resurrect some of our old culture.

You don't seem to know anything about historic scottish culture and simply seem to use "scottish national identity" and "scottish culture" interchangeably. Neither of which are materially meaningful from a governmental standpoint meaning the SNP very likely isn't doing anything to resurrect your old culture.

Ask why Labour didn't get in. The SNP can't just sneak in without a reason for all the votes they got. It reflects a powerful focus of the people's wishes.

That doesn't really translate to commonly shared policy beliefs, nor does such a mandate on that always comes with a clear line of action (such as in this case where reactionary sentiment resulted in the party coming to power).

So heres the problem. Why should we vote for a party who doesn't reflect anything of scottish interests; instead of the SNP?

Because from a material standpoint they all have your wishes in mind and as a "people" you seem to be whiny and materially greedy due to a national culture of reasonless resentment belying the fact that you aren't and never can be important on a national level?

Until this question can be answered, there won't be peace with this issue.

The answer is "your culture is bad" and "minority enclaves tend to recede and demand supplication from majority governance". The answers are all plain to see and fit within socioeconomic theory and observation, they're just stupid and make you look bad.

If your so concerned with what the english tax-payer pays for; then why are you seriously concerned about keeping us in the union anyway?

Being attached to a failed state with no ability to maintain its infrastructure or government physically on an island is gakky.

You don't seem to know anything about historic scottish culture and simply seem to use "scottish national identity" and "scottish culture" interchangeably. Neither of which are materially meaningful from a governmental standpoint meaning the SNP very likely isn't doing anything to resurrect your old culture.

They're doing much more than the tories or labour did though.

That doesn't really translate to commonly shared policy beliefs, nor does such a mandate on that always comes with a clear line of action (such as in this case where reactionary sentiment resulted in the party coming to power)

It certainly isn't a fluke

Because from a material standpoint they all have your wishes in mind and as a "people" you seem to be whiny and materially greedy due to a national culture of reasonless resentment belying the fact that you aren't and never can be important on a national level?

Our wishes in mind? since when?

Reasonless? Thats pretty hilarious. I think your just jealous of the free university tuition and prescriptions; and that the SNP is committed to continuing them

Being attached to a failed state with no ability to maintain its infrastructure or government physically on an island is gakky.

But the only reason its even like that; is because of historic reasons.

I don't understand about this obsession with Scottish 'culture'. that England is 'eroding'. Like what? Wearing kilts? Go for it. Clan blood feuds? Well, the winner ends up in the nick, but if you really have to, knock yourselves out. Eating Haggis? Sure, so long as you don't lob it over the border.


You claim that the devolved government doesn't have enough power. Alright. Get more people in England to vote for the SNP, and your party will have control of the country! Simple! What's that? The SNP only appeal to Scotsmen? Well, in that case, they'll need to come up with policies people in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland like then! Y'know, like every other party does?

The last Prime Minister was Scottish. You complain he was out of touch with Scotland. errr......so what makes you think he was more in touch with the English then? If he was out of touch with you lot, that put him in the neighouring galaxy to us! You're not the only ones with terrible politicians to put up with you know! They're ours too!


If Scotland genuinely wants to leave, let 'em go. Give all serving Scottish Armed Forces members dual nationality, but cease admitting new Scots recruits. Seal the border. Save money.

I'm okay with that. If you want independence, you can have it. However, when we use the money we save from you guys to pay for our own prescription drugs and university fees, don't be surprised when yours suddenly vanish. You'll have swapped 'em out for plenty more of that 'Scottish culture' stuff though.

Mr Hyena wrote:
Melting pot culture doesn't leave a strong national identity however.

And yet we have the United States, Australia, India, Indonesia, China, etc.

Mr Hyena wrote:
Ask why Labour didn't get in. The SNP can't just sneak in without a reason for all the votes they got. It reflects a powerful focus of the people's wishes.

No, not at all. That's the idealistic nonsense they feed you in primary school. The wish to cast a given vote doesn't necessarily have any impact on the wish to live under a given type of governance.

Mr Hyena wrote:
The only way to keep this 'union' going is to stop putting issues under the carpet and give increased powers to all devolved governments.

That's also false. You have no independent power, and can be readily ignored.


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Mr Hyena wrote:
But the only reason its even like that; is because of historic reasons.

So?

That's like arguing someone only like pizza because they are a person that likes pizza.

The last Prime Minister was Scottish. You complain he was out of touch with Scotland. errr......so what makes you think he was more in touch with the English then? If he was out of touch with you lot, that put him in the neighouring galaxy to us! You're not the only ones with terrible politicians to put up with you know! They're ours too!

That just shows how godforsakenly terrible the last government was tbh.

No, not at all. That's the idealistic nonsense they feed you in primary school. The wish to cast a given vote doesn't necessarily have any impact on the wish to live under a given type of governance.

I like how you assume theres brainwashing in scottish primary schools.

You're only now just realising this?

The fact they left us more in debt than two world wars might have been your first clue?

You're only now just realising this?

The fact they left us more in debt than two world wars might have been your first clue?

More like that was too obvious a reason.

Exactly! And we have your bloody Scottish Prime Minister to blame for that! See what happens when you give a Scotsman too much power?

I wouldn't want a scottish party in Westminster; theres no real need for that; and it should be used to reflect english concerns. Give more power to Holyrood, (and to Wales and all too) which means we won't actually need a proper scottish party in westminster as our concerns will properly be taken care of here rather than relying on Mr. I-went-to-Eton-and-I-love-the-Queen, Cameron.

Problem solved.

Mr Hyena wrote:I wouldn't want a scottish party in Westminster; theres no real need for that; and it should be used to reflect english concerns. Give more power to Holyrood, (and to Wales and all too) which means we won't actually need a proper scottish party in westminster as our concerns will properly be taken care of here rather than relying on Mr. I-went-to-Eton-and-I-love-the-Queen, Cameron.

Problem solved.

Not really. Whilst this remain a Union, you need a driving pre-eminent Government. Having 4 Governments in one Union with identical power and different governments is asking for disaster.

England has the money and power, therefore England gets it. Scotland has no economy, no money, no international importance or significance (that isn't inexorably attached to the English), no real resources, or anything in general really. Scotland alone has as much strategic significance in military or economic terms as a passing fart.

If you want to exchange a pre-eminent role on the world stage, your meal ticket for all those lovely programs you're so fond of (which would immediately vanish upon independence), and your economy for some unspecified imaginary Scottish 'culture' (a huge proportionate of which was dreamed up by literary writers with nothing better to do), and some bizare, unreasonable indoctrinated hatred of the English, be my guest. It's more money to spend on the likes of me.

Mr Hyena wrote:

The last Prime Minister was Scottish. You complain he was out of touch with Scotland. errr......so what makes you think he was more in touch with the English then? If he was out of touch with you lot, that put him in the neighouring galaxy to us! You're not the only ones with terrible politicians to put up with you know! They're ours too!

That just shows how godforsakenly terrible the last government was tbh.

No, not at all. That's the idealistic nonsense they feed you in primary school. The wish to cast a given vote doesn't necessarily have any impact on the wish to live under a given type of governance.

I like how you assume theres brainwashing in scottish primary schools.

You sound pretty damn brainwashed tbh.

You sound pretty damn brainwashed tbh.

No more brainwashed than some of the posts here.

Not really. Whilst this remain a Union, you need a driving pre-eminent Government. Having 4 Governments in one Union with identical power and different governments is asking for disaster.

But the alternative is not really that great either so whats it to be? Nobody is really happy with the way its set up.

I didn't go to Eton, but I love the Queen.

did you know in the "good old days" it was mostly the Scottish Nobility that poo'd over the scottish people/lower orders not the Brits.
Also that a Scottish king decided to unify the Monarchy under the British royal family (balding Willies predeccessors)

Also Scots are mostly decended from the Irish!

theres some cultural history!!


tbh Scotland can have independance, and Scots can vote/do/think what they like!
but if they do get it, they had best be prepared to stand on their own two feet, north sea oil wont pay for everything!

Mr Hyena wrote:

But the alternative is not really that great either so whats it to be? Nobody is really happy with the way its set up.

I dunno, tbh, I'm pretty content actually. So's most of England, Wales and Northern Ireland,. Heck, even most of Scotland doesn't want independence I would think. It's just for a hardline radicals. I have difficulty believing anyone with a rational educated opinion (no offence intended), would ever dream of wanting to take Scotland independent. It really has everything to lose and virtually nothing to gain.

Ketara wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

But the alternative is not really that great either so whats it to be? Nobody is really happy with the way its set up.

I dunno, tbh, I'm pretty content actually. So's most of England, Wales and Northern Ireland,. Heck, even most of Scotland doesn't want independence I would think. It's just for a hardline radicals. I have difficulty believing anyone with a rational educated opinion (no offence intended), would ever dream of wanting to take Scotland independent. It really has everything to lose and virtually nothing to gain.

The only reason I personally want independence is because of the refusal to give Holyrood proper powers to manage Scotland properly. If it wasn't for that; I'd be content enough to stay in the union personally. (even if I have no love for it personally) If Westminster isn't interested in scottish concerns then let us fix things ourselves. Independence is the only other option as the english would never vote in a scottish party (tbh which is understandable)

If it was just hardline radicals then the SNP wouldnt have stormed to victory. Theres different ways to gain independence; even if it isn't 'true' independence. I think this is what people (at least myself) are hoping for.

Mr Hyena wrote:

You sound pretty damn brainwashed tbh.

No more brainwashed than some of the posts here.

Not really. Whilst this remain a Union, you need a driving pre-eminent Government. Having 4 Governments in one Union with identical power and different governments is asking for disaster.

But the alternative is not really that great either so whats it to be? Nobody is really happy with the way its set up.

The alternative seems to be working out just fine. This is the part where you seem powerfully brainwashed and misidentify globally common governmental issues and practices with governance that is out of touch with your particular ethnic group.

Mr Hyena wrote:The only reason I personally want independence is because of the refusal to give Holyrood proper powers to manage Scotland properly. If it wasn't for that; I'd be content enough to stay in the union personally. (even if I have no love for it personally) If Westminster isn't interested in scottish concerns then let us fix things ourselves. Independence is the only other option as the english would never vote in a scottish party (tbh which is understandable)

OK, welcome to magicland - Scotland now has all the powers it wants to manage itself "properly"; what powers would it have that it does not have already and what would it do with them and how would it pay for what it wants to do?

How does this "return" Scotland to the tartan wearing, haggis and shortbread eating powerhouse of world culture and industry?

Mr Hyena wrote:

If it was just hardline radicals then the SNP wouldnt have stormed to victory.

I don't know about your experience, but just about everyone I know votes tactically. In other words, they vote SNP, because they reckon they'll get the best deal for them personally, and wring as many concessions as they can out of Britain, and they're better than the alternative options.

I serverely, severely doubt the majority of Scotland is champing at the bit, demanding independence. The lack of....well, massive rallies, large petitions submitted to Westminster weekly, protestors outside No. 11 or even terrorism against the British government by the no doubt subjugated populace and ill trodden populace make me think most of Scotland is pretty content with the status quo. Like most of Britain.

I voted Tory last election. Not because I liked them, but because I wanted Labour out.

Mr Hyena wrote:
I like how you assume theres brainwashing in scottish primary schools.

Did I say something about brainwashing?

That doesn't sound like something I would say.

No, had you actually bothered reading my post from a neutral stance you would have realized that I was making a comment on the necessary implications of voting. This is amusing given that you have horribly misconstrued a comment on what necessity is by drawing unnecessary conclusions from the statement in question.

If your purpose is to argue for Scottish independence, then you probably shouldn't start by making yourself appear as though you cannot be trusted to properly use your native language.

dogma wrote:If your purpose is to argue for Scottish independence, then you probably shouldn't start by making yourself appear as though you cannot be trusted to properly use your native language.

But English is only the language forced upon him by the brutal English dictators and crushers of all things Scottish... He is obviously playing his part in the noble and just rebellion against his English overlords

I voted Tory last election. Not because I liked them, but because I wanted Labour out.

Seems a bad idea choosing that here; anyone is better than them (though Labour is very very close)

The alternative seems to be working out just fine. This is the part where you seem powerfully brainwashed and misidentify globally common governmental issues and practices with governance that is out of touch with your particular ethnic group.

Have you actually spent time in a Scottish school?

Did I say something about brainwashing?

"That's the idealistic nonsense they feed you in primary school"

Thats pretty much impling brainwashing in all but name.

Have you actually spent time in a Scottish school?

Have you?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Have you actually spent time in a Scottish school?

Have you?

Pretty obviously. A simple IP check can show that.

Mr Hyena wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Have you actually spent time in a Scottish school?

Have you?

Pretty obviously. A simple IP check can show that.

But your inferences about scottish cultural history, solitary economic accomplishments, and sociopolitical motives imply that you weren't listening very hard in parts of it. A simple IP check should tell you that I didn't spend time in a scottish primary school. That also has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation though.

That also has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation though.

So how can you say theres brainwashing if you've never been in one? Typical though.

That also has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation though.

Of course it does. It shows the issues that cause the SNP's surge in power.

Mr Hyena wrote:
"That's the idealistic nonsense they feed you in primary school"

Thats pretty much impling brainwashing in all but name.

No, not at all, you're reading that into what was written, which isn't what implication is about.

Primary school children are never taught about the complex ideas that underpin political reality, instead they are given simplified platitudes designed to, supposedly, ease them into thinking about the relevant ideas. That isn't brainwashing, which involves systematically replacing one particular mode of thought with another. Unless all education is brainwashing, in which case we're all in trouble.

Either way, once you start throwing around nonsense ideas like brainwashing, because it is utter nonsense, its very clear that you are not worth engaging with except as a source of amusement. Thankfully, I am very bored, and this is a hilarious thread.

Mr Hyena wrote:

So how can you say theres brainwashing if you've never been in one? Typical though.

Null point. One does not have to contract cancer to comment on it. I can refer to Nazism without being one. I can judge the aesthetic of a sculpture without making them myself.

The scots are like an ex wife.
Want to live their own life and screw around,
but still expect you to pay for it.

How can you tell a scotsman is happy?
He's the guy moaning in the corner

WarOne wrote:I'd invite Scotland as the 51 State of America.

Great jumping off point for invading the rest of the EU.

Why on earth would we want the EU? Besides we already have troops there. Just the hit the light switch from "DEFENDed" to "CONQUERED" and voila, we're done. I mean come on, Eurotechno music is indeed horrific, but its not going to stop a tank.
I call dibs on Wagner's castle! Tbone can man the parapets with a tiny Viking helmet whilst I grill some burgers and play ride of the Valkyrie over and over and over and over.

True story.



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Albatross wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote: If anyone doesn't believe that look at some of the things we've made that people use all over the world now. I agree; just now we can't pay for ourselves. But eventually we will be able to.

I agree; we probably won't pull from the Union. Which is why I think its best to absolutely milk England for all they've got.

Right, so you think that the best way to gain independence is by being financially dependent on England. You're a genius.



GDP of Scotland = £86.3 billion. That's just above Angola, which is ranked 61st in the world by GDP.

We make more than that just from tourism in England. Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

I just hope we're part of the union for long enough to see the Royal Family get the chop....France really knew what to do with their monarchs.

The same thing we did to yours, you mean? Again, never going to happen.

But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

Their ours now.

Pshah. Thats short sighted Alby. Scotland has...Scotch. Any nation with booze of that magnitude is a WORLD POWER


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mattyrm wrote: We have the Royal Marines, The Paras, the SBS, the SAS, and you guys have the 4/5 Royal Highland Dog walking regiment. We shall crush you beneath our iron heels and eat your babies. Happy fething days!

I so want you on my team the next time I play dominoes.

Sorry late to the party but despite the fact that I like the Union and believe that we are all stronger for it I came up with a good reason for supporting Alex Salmond in his puritanical pursuit of independence.

No more Rangers vs Celtic new or reports on TV or radio. Man I'm bored of that story 4 or 5 times a year! Sectarian arses vs sectarian arse presented as a sports item where infact two rubbish trams played out another boring game!

Bugger off Scotland and take yer news with you! :rant:

Pshah. Thats short sighted Alby. Scotland has...Scotch. Any nation with booze of that magnitude is a WORLD POWER

I prefer Irish.

Albatross wrote:

Pshah. Thats short sighted Alby. Scotland has...Scotch. Any nation with booze of that magnitude is a WORLD POWER

I prefer Irish.

Irish is a booze? Que?

Irish Whiskey

loki old fart wrote:Irish Whiskey

OHHH. Respect.