I was wondering is there any segregation or racism in the Tau empire? Perhaps the humans that joined the Tau are not allowed to eat in the same restaurant or fall in love with a Tau female? Or not just humans.
Heres a situation:
Fire Warrior redneck: Get of my lawn you no good Wasps. I give 1 minute to take that ball of yours and get out!
Or maybe it’s the other way around! Perhaps in some certain cities where Vespids or Kroots live they dislike each other more. Perhaps there are some rascist gangs (skin heads)
Or is the Empire actually so kined and loveing to the people that join it?
I've never read anything to suggest as such, but I would expect there to be friction between the races. Take a look at our own society in the past, and this was within the same species. Tau are very different from Kroot and the Vepsid. They may all serve the same goal overall, but they have different ways of life, different morals, social codes. Confrontation is a certainty unless they are all kept very separate off of the battlefield. Makes the Empire a whole lot less unified if this were the case.
There is some indications to this, but nothing actual. Only prof of this can be found in DC - Tau Ending and one Ultramarine novel. Example can see also seen in Taros campaign, where Tau give captured guardsman a choice: be eaten alive by Kroot or work in a mines until you die. And that they use Gue'Vesa as cannon fodder.
But I am Imperial and use Imperial data. We actually don't have any data about Tau life. We only know that they have castes, that they are psychically different from caste to caste and that they are eager to live in alliance. We also know that they are conquerors and that they are slowly gaining territory ( but in recent time they have more defeats then victories, they gained only 2 worlds so far beyond the borders of their empire ).
We also knew they didn't love each other until Etherials united them. there may still be some racism there, but I think that loyalty to Grater Good and Etherials come before that.
But I am Imperial and use Imperial data. We actually don't have any data about Tau life. We only know that they have castes, that they are psychically different from caste to caste and that they are eager to live in alliance. We also know that they are conquerors and that they are slowly gaining territory ( but in recent time they have more defeats then victories, they gained only 2 worlds so far beyond the borders of their empire ).
Yeah and also they lost 2 planets one to chaos (Some Nurgle fanatic army) and the other to the Imperium so those two planets they conquered jut replaced the two worlds they lost.
So are they proboly mostly racist to humans that join them?
bob the heretic wrote:
Yeah and also they lost 2 planets one to chaos (Some Nurgle fanatic army) and the other to the Imperium so those two planets they conquered jut replaced the two worlds they lost.
So are they proboly mostly racist to humans that join them?
Don't forget the one consumed by Necrons... Probably yes, the way they use Human "helpers" all suggest to that. But we will sure get hit by Tau fans some time today....
From the codex. Ke'lshan: This sept has suffered a great deal at the hands of all manner of alien races and the inhabitants have become mistrustful of those not know to them. Unfriendly and sometimes openly hostile to alien races.
there is certaintly segragation, not as extreame as your suggestion, but its there.
the Tau don't permit Tau of different castes to interbreed so Tau and any other race certaintly would be a no go.
Humans from planets that don't join willingly are sterilized. only those humans that are willing followers of the Tau can breed.
the Kroot and Vespids were willing followers of the Tau and so weren't sterilized.
the Tau do consider any Geu'la to be 2nd class citizens. Geu'la Auxiliary are not fully equipped with Tau equipment, normally they might have Tau body armor and some Tau heavy weapons, but they will usually be stuck with Lasguns, heavy Bolters, lascannons, and whatever vehicles they have access to.
the Tau do consider any Geu'la to be 2nd class citizens. Geu'la Auxiliary are not fully equipped with Tau equipment, normally they might have Tau body armor and some Tau heavy weapons, but they will usually be stuck with Lasguns, heavy Bolters, lascannons, and whatever vehicles they have access to.
sorry but the word"Geu'la" means "Xeno"? And if it does then arent Kroots and Vespids also second class?
sorry but the word"Geu'la" means "Xeno"? And if it does then arent Kroots and Vespids also second class?
Geu- is the tau word from humanoids, with the 'la meaning guardsmen.
Kroot seem to be seen as higher than vespid, as there is speculation that the helmets the tau give the bugs is for 'communication' is also some sort of mind control device.
Tau don't like that Kroot's savageness, but they respect them as fighters and citizens.
Kroot are also 2nd class citizens, slightly above humans.
Vespids are more respected then Kroot are
I actually believe that Vespids are more respected then Kroots, beacuse they are mined controlled by the etherals.
By the way even though in the Tau Empire there are many differant classes can a Tau, Kroot, Vespid, and human still be friends?
and be like
Human: Lets go to the Tau strip club!
Kroot: Heck no! Kroot strip bar, dude
Tau: No way, Tau chicks are hotter
Vespid: Buzzzzzzzz Buzzzzz Buzzzzzz
Human: Yeah I agree with him.
Breeding takes place strictly in one caste, so I guess a Gue'vesa wouldn't be allowed to fall in love with a Tau female as he is of a different caste. I would imagine that much like with our own society, there was friction between tau and kroot and vespids at first, but as they are accepted into the Greater Good they become more accepted in society.
Why are all these xeno hate topics, most notably Tau keep popping up? its getting pretty ridiculous.
But all the things being discussed here is just rumored, speculated, or made up completely. There really is not much evidence to support either way, so those that like Tau speculate in the most optimistic kinda way while all the people who are haters of Tau try to interpret things in the worst way possible. Leme try and give you the opposite non xeno hate fanatic side of things
1.) Racism? really? theres racism in every species. But there has never been anything written saying that it is mandatory or promoted by the caste system. An vespid/kroot/human colonists do not live on the Tau home worlds. The kroot "citizens" if you will do not migrate to Tau worlds, and Vespid obviously dont because they do not speak the same language as the Tau
2.) Empire Size? You guys were a little off about your expansion/ planet reduction estimate. This isnt speculation, its just a fact you were wrong.lol There were MANY planets conquered by the Tau after the crusade against them pulled back. It is never said how many, and not all have been made into colonies yet. You cant also know if they have lost more battles than they have won. Its quite impossible to know
3.) Sterilization- This keeps coming up b/c of ONE stupid game ending on ONE planet. That whole story came out of no where, and if you played the game you would know the whole story of it sucked. An it wasnt even done at the orders of the Tau leaders, just the leader who conquered the planet. Same with the massacre on the IG world, and that "be gassed or mined" stuff your trying to pass off as the standard treatment of humans
4.) Finally the brain control Device. Its a translator, like I said vespid speak a different language and the only form of communication is by that helmet they have stran leaders wear. Without that its impossible to communicate with the other vespid. Any talk about it being a mind control device is made up speculation
So in conclusion is there mandatory racism as promoted by the ethreals and caste system? No. Is there "racism" of course, theres even racism in our world
darkcloud92 wrote:Why are all these xeno hate topics, most notably Tau keep popping up? its getting pretty ridiculous.
But all the things being discussed here is just rumored, speculated, or made up completely. There really is not much evidence to support either way, so those that like Tau speculate in the most optimistic kinda way while all the people who are haters of Tau try to interpret things in the worst way possible. Leme try and give you the opposite non xeno hate fanatic side of things
1.) Racism? really? theres racism in every species. But there has never been anything written saying that it is mandatory or promoted by the caste system. An vespid/kroot/human colonists do not live on the Tau home worlds. The kroot "citizens" if you will do not migrate to Tau worlds, and Vespid obviously dont because they do not speak the same language as the Tau
2.) Empire Size? You guys were a little off about your expansion/ planet reduction estimate. This isnt speculation, its just a fact you were wrong.lol There were MANY planets conquered by the Tau after the crusade against them pulled back. It is never said how many, and not all have been made into colonies yet. You cant also know if they have lost more battles than they have won. Its quite impossible to know
3.) Sterilization- This keeps coming up b/c of ONE stupid game ending on ONE planet. That whole story came out of no where, and if you played the game you would know the whole story of it sucked. An it wasnt even done at the orders of the Tau leaders, just the leader who conquered the planet. Same with the massacre on the IG world, and that "be gassed or mined" stuff your trying to pass off as the standard treatment of humans
4.) Finally the brain control Device. Its a translator, like I said vespid speak a different language and the only form of communication is by that helmet they have stran leaders wear. Without that its impossible to communicate with the other vespid. Any talk about it being a mind control device is made up speculation
So in conclusion is there mandatory racism as promoted by the ethreals and caste system? No. Is there "racism" of course, theres even racism in our world
I didn't create this topic but people have rights to make whatever threads to ask whatever they want as long as the threads have a purpose and obey forum rules. So if you don't like this thread just ignore it but don't come here and say don't discuss.
As for the Tau badness, look at a thread I created for that in which I and Redscare have put up evidence for that, so stop whining and about so-called Tau hate.
darkcloud92 wrote:Why are all these xeno hate topics, most notably Tau keep popping up? its getting pretty ridiculous.
But all the things being discussed here is just rumored, speculated, or made up completely. There really is not much evidence to support either way, so those that like Tau speculate in the most optimistic kinda way while all the people who are haters of Tau try to interpret things in the worst way possible. Leme try and give you the opposite non xeno hate fanatic side of things
1.) Racism? really? theres racism in every species. But there has never been anything written saying that it is mandatory or promoted by the caste system. An vespid/kroot/human colonists do not live on the Tau home worlds. The kroot "citizens" if you will do not migrate to Tau worlds, and Vespid obviously dont because they do not speak the same language as the Tau
2.) Empire Size? You guys were a little off about your expansion/ planet reduction estimate. This isnt speculation, its just a fact you were wrong.lol There were MANY planets conquered by the Tau after the crusade against them pulled back. It is never said how many, and not all have been made into colonies yet. You cant also know if they have lost more battles than they have won. Its quite impossible to know
3.) Sterilization- This keeps coming up b/c of ONE stupid game ending on ONE planet. That whole story came out of no where, and if you played the game you would know the whole story of it sucked. An it wasnt even done at the orders of the Tau leaders, just the leader who conquered the planet. Same with the massacre on the IG world, and that "be gassed or mined" stuff your trying to pass off as the standard treatment of humans
4.) Finally the brain control Device. Its a translator, like I said vespid speak a different language and the only form of communication is by that helmet they have stran leaders wear. Without that its impossible to communicate with the other vespid. Any talk about it being a mind control device is made up speculation
So in conclusion is there mandatory racism as promoted by the ethreals and caste system? No. Is there "racism" of course, theres even racism in our world
I didn't create this topic but people have rights to make whatever threads to ask whatever they want as long as the threads have a purpose and obey forum rules. So if you don't like this thread just ignore it but don't come here and say don't discuss.
As for the Tau badness, look at a thread I created for that in which I and Redscare have put up evidence for that, so stop whining and about so-called Tau hate.
Was not whining, whining implies you to be able to hear my tone of voice, which is impossible via the internet. An I never said you or anyone else should stop the topics, I just said its "pretty ridiculous." I guess those words contain a whole lota whine in them. An I did contribute to the topic, as I said I posted the other side of things thats all. I did not directly attack anyone's opinions, like you did my friend, just the arguments. I mean like I said there is not enough "evidence" to really support either side, just how you interpret what there is.
So sorry if I made it seem like everything I was saying it 100% factual, it is not. I thought I made that clear in my opening statement, sorry if I did not. The only thing that I claim is a fact is the battle record. All the rest is merely my interpretation due to lack of any explicit and direct evidence, same as your own
1.) Racism? really? theres racism in every species. But there has never been anything written saying that it is mandatory or promoted by the caste system. An vespid/kroot/human colonists do not live on the Tau home worlds. The kroot "citizens" if you will do not migrate to Tau worlds, and Vespid obviously dont because they do not speak the same language as the Tau
I was talking about major segregations and stuff. Off course there are racism in every species but Tau always claims and says "Join the Greater Good and youll be excepted". I wanted to see opinions.
2.) Empire Size? You guys were a little off about your expansion/ planet reduction estimate. This isnt speculation, its just a fact you were wrong.lol There were MANY planets conquered by the Tau after the crusade against them pulled back. It is never said how many, and not all have been made into colonies yet. You cant also know if they have lost more battles than they have won. Its quite impossible to know
No, you are wrong and stop bitc*ing, Tau has not expanded that much go and read on the Lexicanum, during the 13th Black Crusade Chaos did take over a planet from Tau. Also the Ultramarine 4th Company (and more, I just don’t have the perfect memory to say the regiment names and the other companies) and the White Scars did take a planet away from Tau. All my sources are from Lexicanum I read this a while ago but I stuffed this in my head and I have talked about this with the workers of GW and they told interesting stuff about these things. A Tau also suffered heavily from the Tyranid Hive Mined, Kraken. To be honest I barley hear any more about the Tau expansion anymore. We will only know more in the new Codex., for now you don’t have much facts. I have my facts, you can write back to me about this but I will not discuss about this anymore because this is going off on a different topic.
3.) Sterilization- This keeps coming up b/c of ONE stupid game ending on ONE planet. That whole story came out of no where, and if you played the game you would know the whole story of it sucked. An it wasnt even done at the orders of the Tau leaders, just the leader who conquered the planet. Same with the massacre on the IG world, and that "be gassed or mined" stuff your trying to pass off as the standard treatment of humans
Well if they did it once they did it once they probably will or do it more.
4.) Finally the brain control Device. Its a translator, like I said vespid speak a different language and the only form of communication is by that helmet they have stran leaders wear. Without that its impossible to communicate with the other vespid. Any talk about it being a mind control device is made up speculation
Workers from GW told me that how they mined control them, okay. Say what you want but I know what’s true. Indeed, perhaps it is also made to communicate but you need to know that the main reason they have it is for mined control purposes.
So in conclusion is there mandatory racism as promoted by the ethreals and caste system? No. Is there "racism" of course, theres even racism in our world]
bob the heretic wrote:I was wondering is there any segregation or racism in the Tau empire? Perhaps the humans that joined the Tau are not allowed to eat in the same restaurant or fall in love with a Tau female? Or not just humans.
Heres a situation:
Fire Warrior redneck: Get of my lawn you no good Wasps. I give 1 minute to take that ball of yours and get out!
Or maybe it’s the other way around! Perhaps in some certain cities where Vespids or Kroots live they dislike each other more. Perhaps there are some rascist gangs (skin heads)
Or is the Empire actually so kined and loveing to the people that join it?
There is strong evidence that Tau are the least racist race of all featured in Codices. They allow a Kroot general, they see vespids as comrades, they even teach humans technology and non-violent behavior
Do they allow marriage between a Tau and a human? No. Do humans allow a marriage between a human and an earthworm, cactus or a toaster? No. Because neither can interbreed, being biologically totally different.
And yes, I think one Tau hater troll thread per week is enough.
And yes, I think one Tau hater troll thread per week is enough.
..........................This was not a Tau hate thread I want to learn some stuff about their society.
I said that Tau fans will attack us....
As for their society, we don't know because there isn't much to know. Same for Tau fans, they can just speculate how Tau society works. GW didn't give anything for us to see their way of life, cities, trade, etc... And their codex tells us little about them...
We don't hate Tau, we just want to point that Tau are not so good guys after all. I mean, people see them as a saviours of the galaxy, in fact they are conqurers like Humans - they just use other methods to achieve that. They are using "Grater Good" strategy to ensure that everyone will get to their side and after that they will use them against their enemies, just as Imperium is using alien mercenariness to help them fight forces of Chaos...
And if you think that we are trolling, then what about that Tau fans trolling that are implementing that Tau Empire can defeat Imperium of Mankind?
1.) Racism? really? theres racism in every species. But there has never been anything written saying that it is mandatory or promoted by the caste system. An vespid/kroot/human colonists do not live on the Tau home worlds. The kroot "citizens" if you will do not migrate to Tau worlds, and Vespid obviously dont because they do not speak the same language as the Tau
I was talking about major segregations and stuff. Off course there are racism in every species but Tau always claims and says "Join the Greater Good and youll be excepted". I wanted to see opinions.
2.) Empire Size? You guys were a little off about your expansion/ planet reduction estimate. This isnt speculation, its just a fact you were wrong.lol There were MANY planets conquered by the Tau after the crusade against them pulled back. It is never said how many, and not all have been made into colonies yet. You cant also know if they have lost more battles than they have won. Its quite impossible to know
No, you are wrong and stop bitc*ing, Tau has not expanded that much go and read on the Lexicanum, during the 13th Black Crusade Chaos did take over a planet from Tau. Also the Ultramarine 4th Company (and more, I just don’t have the perfect memory to say the regiment names and the other companies) and the White Scars did take a planet away from Tau. All my sources are from Lexicanum I read this a while ago but I stuffed this in my head and I have talked about this with the workers of GW and they told interesting stuff about these things. A Tau also suffered heavily from the Tyranid Hive Mined, Kraken. To be honest I barley hear any more about the Tau expansion anymore. We will only know more in the new Codex., for now you don’t have much facts. I have my facts, you can write back to me about this but I will not discuss about this anymore because this is going off on a different topic.
3.) Sterilization- This keeps coming up b/c of ONE stupid game ending on ONE planet. That whole story came out of no where, and if you played the game you would know the whole story of it sucked. An it wasnt even done at the orders of the Tau leaders, just the leader who conquered the planet. Same with the massacre on the IG world, and that "be gassed or mined" stuff your trying to pass off as the standard treatment of humans
Well if they did it once they did it once they probably will or do it more.
4.) Finally the brain control Device. Its a translator, like I said vespid speak a different language and the only form of communication is by that helmet they have stran leaders wear. Without that its impossible to communicate with the other vespid. Any talk about it being a mind control device is made up speculation
Workers from GW told me that how they mined control them, okay. Say what you want but I know what’s true. Indeed, perhaps it is also made to communicate but you need to know that the main reason they have it is for mined control purposes.
So in conclusion is there mandatory racism as promoted by the ethreals and caste system? No. Is there "racism" of course, theres even racism in our world]
2.)No mister heretic you ARE WRONG about the empire size. let me reiterate, i was not whining or complaining. Just b/c I have a different opinion than yours does not mean that I am whining when I say it. But it clearly states IN THE CODEX, im a tau player so I should know, that after the black crusade, read that AFTER the black crusade when most the damage was done, the Tau led by Farsight, that tau girl, and a few other leaders managed to reclaim almost everything that was lost out of the original colonies, but they also managed to conquer many more planets that were not originally there's. The empire expanded to being greater than it was before the crusade ever began.
3.) You keep using the word they, "they" did not sterilize people. The video games fluff does not count for anything what so ever. But if you must count it, it was ONE commander, not the Tau, aka "they". And "they," the Tau, the actual leaders, exiled that man and punished him. So "they" wouldnt be sterilizing people some more because "they" never did it in the first place.
4.) Finally going back to the mind control for no reason what so ever, it clearly states in the codex, should you have read it which you clearly have not, that it is a possibility that the ethreals put a mind control device on the stran leaders. HOWEVER, it also clearly states in that same section, word for word, that there is no evidence to back this up what so ever.
I can understand you being curious about wanting to learn about the Tau, so if you want to learn listen to the people who know about the Tau, and not just the xeno hating fanatics and your own personal opinions.
I can understand you being curious about wanting to learn about the Tau, so if you want to learn listen to the people who know about the Tau, and not just the xeno hating fanatics and your own personal opinions.
Notice how I did not go against anybody that were answering on my question about racism. I did not comment on them beacuse I did not know anything about the Tau society itself. The only time when I talk back when I know stuff are facts. I never knew about the Tau later regrouping the broken forces and then defeat the chaos. Thank you for teling me about that. I am saying what I know, what I was told by GW workers, some other Tau fans, and reading Black Library books. I honestly have not read the Tau codex, I admit it but I read many other things, plus Ill be hones to everybody that I know codexes are right but it seems like that in each codex they only talk about the races winning to please the fans and it kinda anoys me beacuse then the fans always have to say "The Codex says that my race is the best race of all" . But yeah I guess maybe I shold read the Tau Codex.
I can understand you being curious about wanting to learn about the Tau, so if you want to learn listen to the people who know about the Tau, and not just the xeno hating fanatics and your own personal opinions.
Notice how I did not go against anybody that were answering on my question about racism. I did not comment on them beacuse I did not know anything about the Tau society itself. The only time when I talk back when I know stuff are facts. I never knew about the Tau later regrouping the broken forces and then defeat the chaos. Thank you for teling me about that. I am saying what I know, what I was told by GW workers, some other Tau fans, and reading Black Library books. I honestly have not read the Tau codex, I admit it but I read many other things, plus Ill be hones to everybody that I know codexes are right but it seems like that in each codex they only talk about the races winning to please the fans and it kinda anoys me beacuse then the fans always have to say "The Codex says that my race is the best race of all" . But yeah I guess maybe I shold read the Tau Codex.
It's generally a good idea to look for the answers yourself before asking people for them.
@ bob One smart guy told to me once: "people say that DoW games are not fluff becuse they don't like how the game ends". I consider Fire Warrior actual fluff, even if 1 Fire Warrior ( Chuck La'Kais ) kill entire regiment of the Guard, 40 Space Marines, over 100 CSM, a Titan, Daemon princes and The grater Daemon of Chaos...
There is little actual proof of the Tau treating other species as inferior. There have been some instances where is is possibly hinted at, they are rare but they have been massively blown out of proportion on the internet.
IIRC the instance of Tau keeping humans in a prison camp was the alternative ending to a game not produced by GW. Even in this case the idea they are keeping them in camps is suggested by an imperial narrator.
There is no suggestion that the Tau empire's stance on Kroot is that they are inferior. Individual Tau dislike kroot for their odd eating habits but that doesn't mean Tau society is againsty kroot. We have laws against racism- doesn't mean no one is racist.
The Tau Empire is more of a group of allied forces than a true empire. Each force contributes to the running of services that support all of them but that Tau do not control the other species. Even if they wanted to supress the other races they can't. The Kroot have their own council and run themselves- aside from taking some kroot as soldiers the Tau don't interfere with Kroot society. I belive the same occurs with humans. They exchange services with the tau empire but control of the planet reamains in the hands of the humans.
Last time I checked GW didn't have a computer game developing department. The actual game making is done by someone else. You just have to look at some of the black library books to see how little they check other items using their background.
4M2A wrote:
There is no suggestion that the Tau empire's stance on Kroot is that they are inferior. Individual Tau dislike kroot for their odd eating habits but that doesn't mean Tau society is againsty kroot. We have laws against racism- doesn't mean no one is racist.
The Fire Caste regards the Vespid as skillful and reliable allies... they don't share the same feeling about the Kroot.
No it doesn't say they don't at all. You can't take a sentence that says something like (sorry haven't got my codex with me so can't quote exactly) "The Tau Fire Warriors see vespid as skillful and reliable allies" as proof they hate kroot. Thats like saying that I hate laptops because I mention that desk PCs are usful tools. It would be a very long comment if they listed everything FW see as good.
Last time I checked GW didn't have a computer game developing department. The actual game making is done by someone else. You just have to look at some of the black library books to see how little they check other items using their background.
It is still their game and story is supervised by BL writers. And the game os doing THQ, last I checked they have been partners with GW for years, so they are well known to the 40k world. Even so, GW must analyze everything, even storyline before they let the game into sale. You think what you want, it's your thing. For everyone else, DoW is actual fluff for 40k and always will be.
i believe the tau to be far too diplomatic to ever voice any racism out loud in earshot of other species, but the kroot see things differently. nice story in the codex where they have their own little private jokes with a tau diplomat. they communicate by smell too, and expell some really nasty aromaes around him.
but generally: tolerance is what keeps the empire going. They cant afford racism and as the rational people they are, i think to imagine otherwise would be unrealistic.
darkcloud92 wrote:
2.)No mister heretic you ARE WRONG about the empire size. let me reiterate, i was not whining or complaining. Just b/c I have a different opinion than yours does not mean that I am whining when I say it. But it clearly states IN THE CODEX, im a tau player so I should know, that after the black crusade, read that AFTER the black crusade when most the damage was done, the Tau led by Farsight, that tau girl, and a few other leaders managed to reclaim almost everything that was lost out of the original colonies, but they also managed to conquer many more planets that were not originally there's. The empire expanded to being greater than it was before the crusade ever began.
3.) You keep using the word they, "they" did not sterilize people. The video games fluff does not count for anything what so ever. But if you must count it, it was ONE commander, not the Tau, aka "they". And "they," the Tau, the actual leaders, exiled that man and punished him. So "they" wouldnt be sterilizing people some more because "they" never did it in the first place.
4.) Finally going back to the mind control for no reason what so ever, it clearly states in the codex, should you have read it which you clearly have not, that it is a possibility that the ethreals put a mind control device on the stran leaders. HOWEVER, it also clearly states in that same section, word for word, that there is no evidence to back this up what so ever.
I can understand you being curious about wanting to learn about the Tau, so if you want to learn listen to the people who know about the Tau, and not just the xeno hating fanatics and your own personal opinions.
I am not a xeno-hating fanatic, my 40k army is Orks . The Tau do sterilize, it is shown in dark crusade and in the FFG books. They are an empire seeing as they want to conquer the galaxy. The Tau believe that they have a manifest destiny to spread the greater good to the whole galaxy - somewhat similar to what the Imperium of man wants. Check out a thread I created about the Tau.
Anyway, for this thread I don't really think that the Tau are racist. They may look down on other races for doing things that they consider barbaric but who doesn't have this attitude both in 40k and real life, right.
4M2A wrote:No it doesn't say they don't at all. You can't take a sentence that says something like (sorry haven't got my codex with me so can't quote exactly) "The Tau Fire Warriors see vespid as skillful and reliable allies" as proof they hate kroot. Thats like saying that I hate laptops because I mention that desk PCs are usful tools. It would be a very long comment if they listed everything FW see as good.
It specifically mentions that they do not extend the honor of being "skillful and reliable allies" to the Kroot.
darkcloud92 wrote:
2.)No mister heretic you ARE WRONG about the empire size. let me reiterate, i was not whining or complaining. Just b/c I have a different opinion than yours does not mean that I am whining when I say it. But it clearly states IN THE CODEX, im a tau player so I should know, that after the black crusade, read that AFTER the black crusade when most the damage was done, the Tau led by Farsight, that tau girl, and a few other leaders managed to reclaim almost everything that was lost out of the original colonies, but they also managed to conquer many more planets that were not originally there's. The empire expanded to being greater than it was before the crusade ever began.
3.) You keep using the word they, "they" did not sterilize people. The video games fluff does not count for anything what so ever. But if you must count it, it was ONE commander, not the Tau, aka "they". And "they," the Tau, the actual leaders, exiled that man and punished him. So "they" wouldnt be sterilizing people some more because "they" never did it in the first place.
4.) Finally going back to the mind control for no reason what so ever, it clearly states in the codex, should you have read it which you clearly have not, that it is a possibility that the ethreals put a mind control device on the stran leaders. HOWEVER, it also clearly states in that same section, word for word, that there is no evidence to back this up what so ever.
I can understand you being curious about wanting to learn about the Tau, so if you want to learn listen to the people who know about the Tau, and not just the xeno hating fanatics and your own personal opinions.
I am not a xeno-hating fanatic, my 40k army is Orks . The Tau do sterilize, it is shown in dark crusade and in the FFG books. They are an empire seeing as they want to conquer the galaxy. The Tau believe that they have a manifest destiny to spread the greater good to the whole galaxy - somewhat similar to what the Imperium of man wants. Check out a thread I created about the Tau.
Anyway, for this thread I don't really think that the Tau are racist. They may look down on other races for doing things that they consider barbaric but who doesn't have this attitude both in 40k and real life, right.
It is not certain if the Tau sterilize populations ( but also not unthinkable, especialy on actively hostile populations which the people of Kronos were ). The Dark Crusade reference is unclear about it. Even the Imperial(!) narrator can only guess why the human birthrate droped.
The part about the manifest destiny finds my agreement. Of course the details are different. Where the Imperium always seeked a human galaxy, to the utter detriment of all other races, the
Tau hope to unify the galaxy and it's many inhabitants trough their ideology ( by force if necessary, but force isn't the first choice ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
4M2A wrote:No it doesn't say they don't at all. You can't take a sentence that says something like (sorry haven't got my codex with me so can't quote exactly) "The Tau Fire Warriors see vespid as skillful and reliable allies" as proof they hate kroot. Thats like saying that I hate laptops because I mention that desk PCs are usful tools. It would be a very long comment if they listed everything FW see as good.
It specifically mentions that they do not extend the honor of being "skillful and reliable allies" to the Kroot.
I always regarded this quote as a reference to the mercenary nature of the Kroot. Unlike the Vespid they fight for everyone who can pay, which makes them somewhat unreliable as stable allies.
darkcloud92 wrote:
2.)No mister heretic you ARE WRONG about the empire size. let me reiterate, i was not whining or complaining. Just b/c I have a different opinion than yours does not mean that I am whining when I say it. But it clearly states IN THE CODEX, im a tau player so I should know, that after the black crusade, read that AFTER the black crusade when most the damage was done, the Tau led by Farsight, that tau girl, and a few other leaders managed to reclaim almost everything that was lost out of the original colonies, but they also managed to conquer many more planets that were not originally there's. The empire expanded to being greater than it was before the crusade ever began.
3.) You keep using the word they, "they" did not sterilize people. The video games fluff does not count for anything what so ever. But if you must count it, it was ONE commander, not the Tau, aka "they". And "they," the Tau, the actual leaders, exiled that man and punished him. So "they" wouldnt be sterilizing people some more because "they" never did it in the first place.
4.) Finally going back to the mind control for no reason what so ever, it clearly states in the codex, should you have read it which you clearly have not, that it is a possibility that the ethreals put a mind control device on the stran leaders. HOWEVER, it also clearly states in that same section, word for word, that there is no evidence to back this up what so ever.
I can understand you being curious about wanting to learn about the Tau, so if you want to learn listen to the people who know about the Tau, and not just the xeno hating fanatics and your own personal opinions.
I am not a xeno-hating fanatic, my 40k army is Orks . The Tau do sterilize, it is shown in dark crusade and in the FFG books. They are an empire seeing as they want to conquer the galaxy. The Tau believe that they have a manifest destiny to spread the greater good to the whole galaxy - somewhat similar to what the Imperium of man wants. Check out a thread I created about the Tau.
Anyway, for this thread I don't really think that the Tau are racist. They may look down on other races for doing things that they consider barbaric but who doesn't have this attitude both in 40k and real life, right.
It is not certain if the Tau sterilize populations ( but also not unthinkable, especialy on actively hostile populations which the people of Kronos were ). The Dark Crusade reference is unclear about it. Even the Imperial(!) narrator can only guess why the human birthrate droped.
The part about the manifest destiny finds my agreement. Of course the details are different. Where the Imperium always seeked a human galaxy, to the utter detriment of all other races, the
Tau hope to unify the galaxy and it's many inhabitants trough their ideology ( by force if necessary, but force isn't the first choice ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
4M2A wrote:No it doesn't say they don't at all. You can't take a sentence that says something like (sorry haven't got my codex with me so can't quote exactly) "The Tau Fire Warriors see vespid as skillful and reliable allies" as proof they hate kroot. Thats like saying that I hate laptops because I mention that desk PCs are usful tools. It would be a very long comment if they listed everything FW see as good.
It specifically mentions that they do not extend the honor of being "skillful and reliable allies" to the Kroot.
I always regarded this quote as a reference to the mercenary nature of the Kroot. Unlike the Vespid they fight for everyone who can pay, which makes them somewhat unreliable as stable allies.
So what your saying is that Tau sterilizing populations is not wrong but when the Imperium does it, its the ultimate evil? . The Tau not using force as a first choice in the end nothing but the Tau being very clever and using diplomacy to undermine a races own government before they get that race to join them. Are you say that the Imperium purging the galaxy of aliens is a bad things? I don't see it that way. 9 times of 10 the aliens of 40k are donkey-caves like the Hrud or the Yu'Vath and the Cabal bastards from the 'HH' series plotting humanitys downfall.
Most aliens in 40k are a lot like the Hrud or Yu'Vath or like Orks but more vicious. These are races whose society's don't oppress them. Infact, being under Tau rule would be oppressive to them. The Tau believe that they know best when they clearly don't as they are ignorant and naive seeing as they are screwing with ancient alien tech best left alone. A lot of races in 40k would disagree with Tau philosophy and would try and destroy them if it wasn't for the fact that the Imperium destroyed them first. Admit it the Imperium in a way acts as a shield for the Tau from the nastiness of the rest of the galaxy.
Just look at the thread I created about Tau being 'good guys', it has evidence that Tau do indeed sterilize Humans.
I think you would see interspecies marriage, but in a different sense then one might think. You might see members of the water caste marrying into noble family of other aliens. They wouldn't be marriages of love and wouldn't directly produce children. The tau would mostly likely come in as a second wife/husband. They would be about politics.
The tau seem to have bars. I don't quite get it, but they do. I imagine in most places kroot/tau/vespin/human all go to the same bar and drink.
Day to day I don't know how often the different aliens will see each other. I imagine most kroot are on their home planet. Most vespin don't have translation helms, and I see them living in there own separate city sections. (Maybe hovering high in the atmosphere.) I bet the kroot like to live out in the forest and live in their own tribes.
The Tau seem to have a hard spot for humans. Of all the races, I think they treat humans the worst. Human colonist being moved to ice planets or the like & and being given the lowest jobs. Maybe a hand full are better liked (The rouge traders or people who have impressed an enturnal), so they are given a mark of favor that gets them treated better.
nomotog wrote:The tau seem to have bars. I don't quite get it, but they do. I imagine in most places kroot/tau/vespin/human all go to the same bar and drink.
nomotog wrote:The tau seem to have bars. I don't quite get it, but they do. I imagine in most places kroot/tau/vespin/human all go to the same bar and drink.
nomotog wrote:The tau seem to have bars. I don't quite get it, but they do. I imagine in most places kroot/tau/vespin/human all go to the same bar and drink.
Here the relevant quotes for Tau relationships to other races:
Original designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.
Battlefleet Gothic rules wrote:As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.
Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.
[speculations] Could be good to get some perspective on things. Hate to bring up real life, but as far as the human psyche has shown, brutality towards defeated enemies or people seen as friends of the enemy is standard, especially so in pressured situations such as in or near a battle.
How a nation acts in general does not dictate every outcome of a hostile encounter. So, as far as the commander in the video game is concerned, he is most likely a local deviation. Troops from a certain western country gunning down civilians and journalists come to mind, it's not like "they" do that all the time, right?
Oh, and on the subject of dropping birthrates... well, the imperium of man does not exactly hold highly the idea of school for every child, and the empire most certainly encourages high birthrates for workforces. As has been seen, the best way of birth-control is education. Areas with near 100% literacy and a high average education level tend to have less than 2 children per woman on average. Could simply be that the dropping birthrates are a by-product of greater education and liberty. Not that I think GW would incorporate that in their fiction, though, as that would blatantly be saying the Imperium of Man is bad and wrong. (It's better to skip the whole human rights and liberty part so you can paint the fascistic/fanatic main faction in a better light)
Kroothawk wrote:Here the relevant quotes for Tau relationships to other races:
Original designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.
Battlefleet Gothic rules wrote:As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.
Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.
Again you ignore all other sources and simply focus on this one book. I know you are going to call me a hypocrite but you're wrong, I have one source from Lexicanum.com and Rogue trader rpg as well as Redscare's quotes from Tau codex 3rd edition which you conveniently ignore.
Redscare wrote:Tau Empire Codex, regarding treatment of other species.
"Perhaps unsurprisingly, few races are willing to surrender unreservedly, and so the Fire caste has gone to war on numerous occasions." pg10 "Those worlds that will not willingly join the empire are dragged to the negotiating table under threat of annihilation." pg10 "Those that remain openly defiant face obliteration under the orbital guns of he Air caste fleet." pg 10
Tau Empire Codex, regarding treatment of their own people.
"Tau are born into their caste and breeding between the castes is forbidden by the Ethereals." pg8 The exile of the prominent Commander Farsight, after he turns his back on the "Greater Good". pg42, 44, 46
Tau Empire Codex, regarding known speculations about the Tau and their Etherals.
"It has been whispered that this acceptance [by the Vespids] is linked to the fact that all of the race's leaders wear the interface helmets given to them by the Tau, but no evidence of this claim has proved forthcoming." pg16
There is plenty of evidence in the main source book that states , not suggests, the Tau empire is not a peace loving and benevolent society. The Tau admittedly do not engage in atrocities to the same extent as the Imperium, but I do not know how people can convince themselves their hands are clean in any respects.
-- Source: VELK’HAN SEPT. Deathwatch Core Rulebook pg 352. wrote:“The Sept’s humans (referred to by the Tau as ‘Gue’la’) adhere not the Imperial Creed, but to the Tau ideal of the Greater Good. The Tau teach that the perfect society, one modeled after the Tau themselves, has a place for every creature; with every creature in that place, fulfilling their assigned roles without question, for the good of the Sept as a whole. Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instill an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the somewhat reluctant gue’la minds. Populations are regularly sterilized to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicize the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue’la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all."
So all species that have no interest in being ruled by the Tau empire are selfish and evil?
I never saw Kroot Shaper leading entire Tau military force, or seeing some kind of Empire senate or council...
It seems that Kroot willingly accepted the Tau Etherials as their leaders, Vespid to. It's a little stange because I know from the perspective of our race that we would never allow some other faction to make a decision for us.
And since the stories of sterilization are in rulebook, they are true after all. Seems logical move by the Tau to get ride of problem and prove to their allies that they are not rude or anything like the Imperium.
Brother Coa wrote:Do Tau share their power with their allies?
I never saw Kroot Shaper leading entire Tau military force, or seeing some kind of Empire senate or council...
It seems that Kroot willingly accepted the Tau Etherials as their leaders, Vespid to. It's a little stange because I know from the perspective of our race that we would never allow some other faction to make a decision for us.
And since the stories of sterilization are in rulebook, they are true after all. Seems logical move by the Tau to get ride of problem and prove to their allies that they are not rude or anything like the Imperium.
Can you explain what you mean? Cause I don't understand what this post is talking about.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Can you explain what you mean? Cause I don't understand what this post is talking about.
Then I will simplify: Do Tau share their power with their allies? ( Meaning that Eherials are giving half of their power to Kroot Shapers and Vespid Leaders )
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Can you explain what you mean? Cause I don't understand what this post is talking about.
Then I will simplify: Do Tau share their power with their allies? ( Meaning that Eherials are giving half of their power to Kroot Shapers and Vespid Leaders )
I think it is a yes no deal. The eternals rule the empire with shapers, vespid, human lords haveing about the same power and influence as tau generals, admirals, and planers. Mostly acting as advisers with the final say going to the eternal.
I think the humans/kroot/vespin have more power in lower levels over their own people. Vespin strain leaders run the vespin staffed mines. Kroot tribe leaders still lead their tribe even when that tribe is on a tau world. Human lords and generals still keep command over their troops.
You might have a case where kroot mercenarys are lead by a shaper, who answers to a fire warrior commander, who answers to a water cast diplomat, who advises the system lord in a human cluster, who answers to that sector's eternal, who answers to the multi species counsel(eternals in charge with the others acting as advisers, like I talked about up top) back on the tau home world.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Can you explain what you mean? Cause I don't understand what this post is talking about.
Then I will simplify: Do Tau share their power with their allies? ( Meaning that Eherials are giving half of their power to Kroot Shapers and Vespid Leaders )
I think it is a yes no deal. The eternals rule the empire with shapers, vespid, human lords haveing about the same power and influence as tau generals, admirals, and planers. Mostly acting as advisers with the final say going to the eternal.
I think the humans/kroot/vespin have more power in lower levels over their own people. Vespin strain leaders run the vespin staffed mines. Kroot tribe leaders still lead their tribe even when that tribe is on a tau world. Human lords and generals still keep command over their troops.
You might have a case where kroot mercenarys are lead by a shaper, who answers to a fire warrior commander, who answers to a water cast diplomat, who advises the system lord in a human cluster, who answers to that sector's eternal, who answers to the multi species counsel(eternals in charge with the others acting as advisers, like I talked about up top) back on the tau home world.
The Ethereals are completely in charge. But I believe that they do let the races part of the Tau empire govern themselves for the most part but they must believe and obey the greater good. Actually, the Tau empire is in a way run a lot like the Imperium except that the Tau's emperor equivalent is alive. The Tau generals and Ethereals are higher in the leadership order and the other races leader rule over what they have until a Tau arrives in the area then they take charge or the Tau could also rule from the shadows like a shadow chancellor.
As for the part I have already stated that I doubt that their is racism but their is of course looking down on other races. But this is something all races in 40k have as standard behavior as well as we humans. You have situations where Americans look down on people from Philippines or Asia in general.
Tau are in control of the armies because they are mainly consisting of Tau. The Vespid and Kroot are small parts of a Tau army. If an army of kroot were to fight they would be in control.
Nerivant- Confused the comment with another similar comment. However it is understandable they are slightly distrusting of kroot. They are a mercenary species. Vespid joined the Tau because they believe in the Greater good, kroot joined because it suits them. If they believed fighting the Tau would be more beneficial they would turn.
We can technically count it, but I would go against it and say it is at best alternate reality. If we use that fluff than a single Fire Warrior can defeat a couple squads of Space Marines by himself.
The Dawn of War games which are more reserved also bring up an iffy scenario, because the games follow alternate outcomes based on which faction you choose. Meaning that the sterilization outcome contradicts the games story of Space Marines winning, which in essence means fluff wise it gets cancelled out.
As for the topic, the Tau do not look down on other races in daily lives. In times of war the Fire Warrior caste displays disdain for melee fighters due to their tactics in warfare. In one of the Cain novels they have humans living in relative peace with the Tau and Kroot. With children going so far as to adopt Tau topknot hairstyles.
If the society had more free thought on the part of the Tau I'm sure there would be plenty of hatred. Fire Caste members are noted as being borderline serial killers when not under the influence of Ethereals. The world war that engulfed their planet, Brightsword, and Farsight all point to this along with an incident on Taros when an Ethereal was killed.
Brother Coa wrote:Do Tau share their power with their allies?
I never saw Kroot Shaper leading entire Tau military force, or seeing some kind of Empire senate or council...
It seems that Kroot willingly accepted the Tau Etherials as their leaders, Vespid to. It's a little stange because I know from the perspective of our race that we would never allow some other faction to make a decision for us.
And since the stories of sterilization are in rulebook, they are true after all. Seems logical move by the Tau to get ride of problem and prove to their allies that they are not rude or anything like the Imperium.
Kroot and Tau (Sa'cea Sept) first met when Orks attacked the Kroot homeplanet Pech and an accidentally present Sa'cea fleet. Tau and Kroot fought side by side for 10 years against the Ork invasion and finally won. This formed a strong bond between the two races, with the Kroot acknowledging that their race would be extinct without the unselfish aid by the Tau and the Tau impressed by the bravery of the Kroot (Index Xenos: Kroot by Graham McNeill:"So impressed where the Fire Warriors by the Kroot bravery that they agreed to help liberate the remainder of their enclaves from the Orks.") The greatest Kroot leader at that time, Anghkor Prok, formed an official bond between the two races. In background he became a general of the Tau army, his rules http://trobarts.customer.netspace.net.au/anghkor-prok.pdf allow him to be the HQ of a Tau army (if it includes one Kroot unit). BTW Kroot do not willingly accept Ethereals as their leaders, they just formed an alliance with Tau out of gratefullness and respect.
Allies rarely give up power, they keep on being ruled by their own kind with Tau advisors present. Gue'la armies are lead by humans, not Tau.
BTW Tau sterilizing others is not in the Codex. It is mentioned in a non-GWPC-game as the third likeliest explanation in a not-40k timeline why males and females in separate camps get less children. It is also mentioned in a non-GW-RPG game occuring in a human/Tau sept in a specific region. It doesn't explicitely say who sterilizes why under what conditions (human population is ruled by humans). The region has a dark Xeno influence driving Tau and humans mad. And three other planets in that region have an overpopulation of humans that led to mass starvation under an IoM blockade (planets couldn't provide enough food for the population, depended on massive imports). So it is unclear ATM what all this means.
Brother Coa wrote:Do Tau share their power with their allies?
I never saw Kroot Shaper leading entire Tau military force, or seeing some kind of Empire senate or council...
It seems that Kroot willingly accepted the Tau Etherials as their leaders, Vespid to. It's a little stange because I know from the perspective of our race that we would never allow some other faction to make a decision for us.
And since the stories of sterilization are in rulebook, they are true after all. Seems logical move by the Tau to get ride of problem and prove to their allies that they are not rude or anything like the Imperium.
Kroot and Tau (Sa'cea Sept) first met when Orks attacked the Kroot homeplanet Pech and an accidentally present Sa'cea fleet. Tau and Kroot fought side by side for 10 years against the Ork invasion and finally won. This formed a strong bond between the two races, with the Kroot acknowledging that their race would be extinct without the unselfish aid by the Tau and the Tau impressed by the bravery of the Kroot (Index Xenos: Kroot by Graham McNeill:"So impressed where the Fire Warriors by the Kroot bravery that they agreed to help liberate the remainder of their enclaves from the Orks.") The greatest Kroot leader at that time, Anghkor Prok, formed an official bond between the two races. In background he became a general of the Tau army, his rules http://trobarts.customer.netspace.net.au/anghkor-prok.pdf allow him to be the HQ of a Tau army (if it includes one Kroot unit). BTW Kroot do not willingly accept Ethereals as their leaders, they just formed an alliance with Tau out of gratefullness and respect.
Allies rarely give up power, they keep on being ruled by their own kind with Tau advisors present. Gue'la armies are lead by humans, not Tau.
BTW Tau sterilizing others is not in the Codex. It is mentioned in a non-GWPC-game as the third likeliest explanation in a not-40k timeline why males and females in separate camps get less children. It is also mentioned in a non-GW-RPG game occuring in a human/Tau sept in a specific region. It doesn't explicitely say who sterilizes why under what conditions (human population is ruled by humans). The region has a dark Xeno influence driving Tau and humans mad. And three other planets in that region have an overpopulation of humans that led to mass starvation under an IoM blockade (planets couldn't provide enough food for the population, depended on massive imports). So it is unclear ATM what all this means.
The RPG books were made by FFG who has made a Horus Heresy board game for GW. All the rpg books have this -
Games Workshop
LICENSING MANAGER
Owen Rees
HEAD OF LICENSING
Paul Lyons
HEAD OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Alan Merrett
BL makes novels for GW but I've heard that some people scorn those books saying they are not canon because they are not codexes. Are you one of those people, KrootHawk?
The secret of the Jericho Reach is that it has a Necron Tombworld, thats it. The only madness is on that world were the spirits are attacking guardsmen and Kroot. That world that is being described is the capital world of the Sept. The Tau run the government there through the use of human in-betweens. What gives the Tau right to sterilize populations? Or do you think because they are the all knowing Tau, who are ignorant of how the universe really works, they get to do whatever they want.
I agree with you on the issue of the Kroot. I even said that the Tau are not racist, they probably just look down on others, but this is common for everyone.
I notice how you have never refuted the quotes Redscare provided, how come?
All species prefer their own species over others. It's a natural law. To call this racism in the way we know it with our 21st century human sensibilities is a poor choice of terms.
But within this frame of reference, all factions in the 40k universe are racists. The Tau are elitests and don't allow other species an equal franchise in their society. Other races are merely 'associates'.
The Tau also have a 'caste' system in place which most modern humans would consider wrong and lends itself to the appearance of racism within their own society.
From the lexicanum...
'The castes are based upon the racial and political divisions that separated the Tau on their homeworld of T'au during the time of the Mont'au'. Tau are not permitted to breed out of caste or to change their caste all in the name of the 'greater good' set in place by the Ethereals.
This is still racism no matter how benign it appears compared to say, the Imperium imho. It's all a matter of degrees.
Uhlan wrote:All species prefer their own species over others. It's a natural law. To call this racism in the way we know it with our 21st century human sensibilities is a poor choice of terms.
But within this frame of reference, all factions in the 40k universe are racists. The Tau are elitests and don't allow other species an equal franchise in their society. Other races are merely 'associates'.
The Tau also have a 'caste' system in place which most modern humans would consider wrong and lends itself to the appearance of racism within their own society.
From the lexicanum...
'The castes are based upon the racial and political divisions that separated the Tau on their homeworld of T'au during the time of the Mont'au'. Tau are not permitted to breed out of caste or to change their caste all in the name of the 'greater good' set in place by the Ethereals.
This is still racism no matter how benign it appears compared to say, the Imperium imho. It's all a matter of degrees.
Exactly Uhlan, thank you for speaking sense to the people on this forum. Yes, I completely agree with what you said. However, I don't know if we could really call what the races of 40k racist; I think its more along the line of 'speciest' than anything else. The Imperium is not really racist, it is certainly speciest , not even among its own population. Let me explain, the mutants of the human race in 40k are not like x-men mutants or jews. They really look like aliens, they have tentacles for hands, three or four eyes and some are creatures who have degenerated to become cannibals or to survive they have to kill humans or they become vampires etc. The human race in 40k is supposed to evolve into a psychic race and it has been said that mutants threaten that future through them mixing their genes with normal humanity and thus regressing humanity.
I don't know if I'm right. Thats what I have heard people say so I could be wrong. But if their right would it really be wrong to oppress mutants? And is their a way to handle them humanely but still keeping them from contaminating the normal human population, assuming what I heard is true?
Okay, I think I get it....So even tough their isnt alot of hatred between the species the species still look down a bit on one another and there are som laws that do not allow some aliens to do what the Tau can. It work like "first class" an "second class".
darkcloud92 wrote:2.)No mister heretic you ARE WRONG about the empire size. let me reiterate, i was not whining or complaining. Just b/c I have a different opinion than yours does not mean that I am whining when I say it. But it clearly states IN THE CODEX, im a tau player so I should know, that after the black crusade, read that AFTER the black crusade when most the damage was done, the Tau led by Farsight, that tau girl, and a few other leaders managed to reclaim almost everything that was lost out of the original colonies, but they also managed to conquer many more planets that were not originally there's. The empire expanded to being greater than it was before the crusade ever began.
They managed to reclaim almost all of the planets the Imperium abandoned when they pulled back the bare handful of Guardsmen they'd deployed against them to face off against a Hive Fleet. So, they somehow managed to fail to retake completely undefended worlds.
3.) You keep using the word they, "they" did not sterilize people. The video games fluff does not count for anything what so ever. But if you must count it, it was ONE commander, not the Tau, aka "they". And "they," the Tau, the actual leaders, exiled that man and punished him. So "they" wouldnt be sterilizing people some more because "they" never did it in the first place.
It's from the Deathwatch rulebooks, not Dark Crusade. Dark Crusade just had the entire human population being placed in gender segregated concentration camps, to more easily facilitate their eradication/use as slave labor.
bob the heretic wrote:Okay, I think I get it....So even tough their isnt alot of hatred between the species the species still look down a bit on one another and there are som laws that do not allow some aliens to do what the Tau can. It work like "first class" an "second class".
I don't know if looks down is how I would put it. The tau say that all jobs are valuable and needed. It's not "Oh human you are such a worthless addiction to the GG, all you can do is take out the trash." It's more like "Oh thank the GG that we finally have a human, I hear your kind is very good at taking out the trash."
bob the heretic wrote:Okay, I think I get it....So even tough their isnt alot of hatred between the species the species still look down a bit on one another and there are som laws that do not allow some aliens to do what the Tau can. It work like "first class" an "second class".
I don't know if looks down is how I would put it. The tau say that all jobs are valuable and needed. It's not "Oh human you are such a worthless addiction to the GG, all you can do is take out the trash." It's more like "Oh thank the GG that we finally have a human, I hear your kind is very good at taking out the trash."
yeah, thats kinda how it works.
of course thats the idealistic way it works.
look up India's caste system to see how it probably works in real life.
All of the species think their culture is superior, otherwise they wouldn't use it. The tau are no exception. However there is almost no evidence of them acting on this which is what matters.
As for the castes they are split in a way that forces them to be treated equally. None of the castes could work without the support of the others.
Tau are very focused on using the right tool for the job. Humans might see carrying boxes as a bad job, but to the Tau they are doing the most appropriate job for their skills and that is the most effective way of working.
4M2A wrote:All of the species think their culture is superior, otherwise they wouldn't use it. The tau are no exception. However there is almost no evidence of them acting on this which is what matters.
As for the castes they are split in a way that forces them to be treated equally. None of the castes could work without the support of the others.
Tau are very focused on using the right tool for the job. Humans might see carrying boxes as a bad job, but to the Tau they are doing the most appropriate job for their skills and that is the most effective way of working.
I can see tau sciences devoting time to "prove" that the different roles assigned are the right roles. They might perform DNA tests that result in humans being being found resistant to bacterial agents normally found inside of the refuge pits there fore making humans the most ideal garbage men. "This just in, the latest numbers from the third sphere of expansion confirms that humans perform best when used in their new role as cannon fodder. Researchers found that units with human shields had 80% fewer losses then standard units. Let us all congratulate the humans their new use in the evolving field of disposable cover." Things like that.
Uhlan wrote:All species prefer their own species over others. It's a natural law. To call this racism in the way we know it with our 21st century human sensibilities is a poor choice of terms.
But within this frame of reference, all factions in the 40k universe are racists. The Tau are elitests and don't allow other species an equal franchise in their society. Other races are merely 'associates'.
The Tau also have a 'caste' system in place which most modern humans would consider wrong and lends itself to the appearance of racism within their own society.
From the lexicanum...
'The castes are based upon the racial and political divisions that separated the Tau on their homeworld of T'au during the time of the Mont'au'. Tau are not permitted to breed out of caste or to change their caste all in the name of the 'greater good' set in place by the Ethereals.
This is still racism no matter how benign it appears compared to say, the Imperium imho. It's all a matter of degrees.
That's not racism any more than a feudal system is racism. Racism is based on perceived biological or ethnical differences, specifically the inferiority of someone who is "different". A caste system or a feudal system has a population separated by birth where a new born inherits a specific social status according to their ancestors, regardless of their own meriting abilities.
Just because a concept has a negative tone to it and is partially related to the situation doesn't mean you can use it to describe the situation at hand. In some cases a caste system in itself is sufficient to describe a negatively charged situation where a lot of intellectual potential is lost due to the society. The untouchables in India spring to mind as an excellent example of how a caste system can create a tragic situation.
To further distinguish between racism and a caste/feudal system, racism is by large based on fear and prejudice by what is different from your own norm. Meanwhile, a caste or feudal system is usually brought in place to ensure a stagnation of power so that a sectioned off portion of society holds power and that it is inherited within the families of that section. A caste or feudal system are incompatible with a democracy, while racism is highly compatible and even a problem for democracies, because racism is based on perception rather than thought.
And then you get a situation where sentient beings are of actual different races. Now this is harder, and significantly so, but as someone put it "Fantasy is one big happy world where it is white and brown people in happy harmony beating down on the green". Or, in the words of Terry Pratchett "This reeks of shape hatred".
I wouldn't call it racism, but there is a distinct possibility that it's just plain wrong.
Some one brought it up so we might as well talk about it. Assuming they are mind control. has anyone given thought to how the helmets might work. Do a lot of people know about the helmets or is it a secret? Do they let anyone give commands or just the eternals, maybe they have to be reprogrammed every so often when the vespin switches bosses? Do they still act as translators? Are the vespin still under mind control or was it just a temporary project to get them to join?
Also another thing to think about, maybe translation helms and mind control helms are the same thing by accident. Maybe the vespin have some thing like a voice based hive mind where anything you tell a vespin becomes what they think and do. The helms are just translation helms, but it taps the tau into the vespin hive mind and lets them give commands.
The civil war between the Tau, then the Ethereals show up...... "huh suddenly I like everyone and everything now, what should we call this feeling? HHHMMMM, the greater good?
bob the heretic wrote:I was wondering is there any segregation or racism in the Tau empire? Perhaps the humans that joined the Tau are not allowed to eat in the same restaurant or fall in love with a Tau female? Or not just humans.
I really doubt that Humans and Tau would enter romantic relationships even if it was allowed (which I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be). They are both organisms that evolved on entirely different worlds this means entirely different genetics, methods of reproduction, standards of beauty, and societal beliefs on what is acceptable. In the Imperium humans are taught to despise all Xenos. While a concurred world may be persuaded to accept their new Tau masters, its highly unlikely that they would develop any sexual attraction to them. Vice versa Tau society is very strict, the castes don't interbreed. The castes didn't even interbreed before they formed, thats why the different are all different subspecies. Even if society allowed it the standards for what is beautiful between the two races would be vastly different. Again Humans and Tau developed on separate worlds, different aspects of their physiology would be desired. Even if, for example, female Tau had mammary glands (which I doubt they would) to a Human it would be like looking at the mammary glands or an ape at best.
If despite those previous factors a Human and Tau were able to fall in love it might be very difficult to express it physically. Again these are organisms that evolved completely independent from each other, its almost guaranteed their parts wouldn't fit together, let alone be in any way compatible. Even if the two races could be physically able capable to interbreed they would not be able to produce any offspring. Genetics have to be very close in order to produce any offspring between two species, and when it dose work the children are sterile. Donkeys and Horses are very close genetically, yet when they are forced to interbreed their offspring, a Mule, is sterile. Humans and Tau would be so vastly different genetically that fetus would not even start to develop.
TLDR: Aliens and Humans should have no logical reason to fall in love, even if the society did allow it.
corporal_reznov wrote:Again you ignore all other sources and simply focus on this one book. I know you are going to call me a hypocrite but you're wrong, I have one source from Lexicanum.com and Rogue trader rpg as well as Redscare's quotes from Tau codex 3rd edition which you conveniently ignore.
Using an older edition of rules to trump newer ones is usually incorrect.
Because neither can interbreed, being biologically totally different.
Now I find this interesting, and please don't gang up on me for this, I'm only stating it as I'm interested in the logic behind his statement when there is a real world parallel.
We allow gays to marry, yet they cannot breed in any sense. They can adopt, which I would assume a mixed species couple could do as well. And it's highly likely they have sexual deviants just like we do if they reproduce in a similar fashion. There easily could be some female Tau who has a craving for some good human lovin' Just like there are some humans who much prefer animals to other humans.
simply put o.o i like the tau, not so keen on the kroot, but thats only because of all the flesh to paint :3 yes im a lover not a hater, if i hate any race its chaos (except thousand sons but thats a different matter) :3
I dont think they live together...The reserves have Farm colonies, at least i think i read that somewhere, theyre given weapons and tech and are expected to fend for themselves in freedom
Because neither can interbreed, being biologically totally different.
Now I find this interesting, and please don't gang up on me for this, I'm only stating it as I'm interested in the logic behind his statement when there is a real world parallel.
We allow gays to marry, yet they cannot breed in any sense. They can adopt, which I would assume a mixed species couple could do as well. And it's highly likely they have sexual deviants just like we do if they reproduce in a similar fashion. There easily could be some female Tau who has a craving for some good human lovin' Just like there are some humans who much prefer animals to other humans.
Homosexuals can breed, albeit with artificial insemination or serigraph parents.
Even if there were some highly bizarre individuals that were interested in other species, and yes it would be like someone who has a bestiality fetish. However with animals at least they have simlilar bits to humans. With Xenos there would be considerable difficulty getting the bits to fit.
Beside the point Tau society would likely not allow races to attempt to interbreed, they don't let the castes interbreed.
You are kinda saying like its impossible. I mean Tau and Humes are vry smart living beings that are not that differant except physical appereance. They still hav the same emotions, right?
bob the heretic wrote:You are kinda saying like its impossible. I mean Tau and Humes are vry smart living beings that are not that differant except physical appereance. They still hav the same emotions, right?
Yes I am. It is almost entirely physically and socially impossible for a Tau and Human to have a relationship together.
not to mention the Tau are waaaaay different physically from humans.
Eldar at least have almost identical external features.
Tau have cloven hooves and the actual location of their "naughty bits" is actually up for debate by Imperial Xenoligists. the 2 prime locations are the Facial Slit and the Anus.
Yeah, it seems the Tau hate machine has been putting in a little overtime here recently.
Meh. Kids will be kids I guess.
comment removed, please be polite when dealing with fellow forum members.Ta
reds8n
I made this thread to learn more about the Tau Empire and not hate on them. Is there a problem for me ask something I do not know? Or is it immidiatly hate?
Just beacuse there is some truth you do not like doesnt mean its wrong and hate towards the Tau Empire.
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Grey Templar wrote:not to mention the Tau are waaaaay different physically from humans.
Eldar at least have almost identical external features.
Tau have cloven hooves and the actual location of their "naughty bits" is actually up for debate by Imperial Xenoligists. the 2 prime locations are the Facial Slit and the Anus.
I l know they are physically differant but they bot have the same emotions like fear, happy, sadness, anger.
Yeah, it seems the Tau hate machine has been putting in a little overtime here recently.
Meh. Kids will be kids I guess.
I made this thread to learn more about the Tau Empire and not hate on them. Is there a problem for me ask something I do not know? Or is it immidiatly hate?
Just beacuse there is some truth you do not like doesnt mean its wrong and hate towards the Tau Empire.
You know there is a Searhbar...
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Grey Templar wrote:not to mention the Tau are waaaaay different physically from humans.
Eldar at least have almost identical external features.
Tau have cloven hooves and the actual location of their "naughty bits" is actually up for debate by Imperial Xenoligists. the 2 prime locations are the Facial Slit and the Anus.
I l know they are physically differant but they bot have the same emotions like fear, happy, sadness, anger.
Almost every race in the galaxy have emotions, so your argument is invalid...
bob the heretic wrote:You are kinda saying like its impossible. I mean Tau and Humes are vry smart living beings that are not that differant except physical appereance. They still hav the same emotions, right?
1.) They might look similar but are of alien biology, so completely different and not compatible. Humans share 98% of genes (and gene structure) with chimpansees and still can't interbreed.
2.) They don't have the same emotions. Otherwise the Tau would have a warp presence, which they don't have. So to humans, Tau seem completely emotionless.
bob the heretic wrote:You are kinda saying like its impossible. I mean Tau and Humes are vry smart living beings that are not that differant except physical appereance. They still hav the same emotions, right?
1.) They might look similar but are of alien biology, so completely different and not compatible. Humans share 98% of genes (and gene structure) with chimpansees and still can't interbreed.
2.) They don't have the same emotions. Otherwise the Tau would have a warp presence, which they don't have. So to humans, Tau seem completely emotionless.
also something like, 96% with a common blue bottle o.o; eep (admittedly they have only 4 base pairs compared to our 22(?))
bob the heretic wrote:You are kinda saying like its impossible. I mean Tau and Humes are vry smart living beings that are not that differant except physical appereance. They still hav the same emotions, right?
1.) They might look similar but are of alien biology, so completely different and not compatible. Humans share 98% of genes (and gene structure) with chimpansees and still can't interbreed.
2.) They don't have the same emotions. Otherwise the Tau would have a warp presence, which they don't have. So to humans, Tau seem completely emotionless.
You're confusing emotions and a soul. Tau don't have a soul, any more than the average rock does. They don't even have the sort of "negative image" souls human blanks have, just nothing. Emotions don't really factor into it at any point; they're not even stoic so much as they have alien priorities, so what invokes emotion in them is similarly alien.
Tau do have emotions - and from what we see of them they are similar to human emotions. FW feel anger like we do. The ethereals don't suppress emotion. Tau Culture is about following the ethereals, they vary rarely have to force tau to do anything. Even then supressing emotion is not going to help them. Without emotions none of the tau would have the drive to do anything without a specific order from an ethereal and there aren't enough of them for that.
Tau just have different souls. Not neccessarily like animals but still very different from humans. They just don't affect the warp.
After reading all the post i would like to state a couple points:
1st: Taus DO have emotions, i cant remember exactly where a read about commander O'sherra been sad about the lost of her sisters and Aun'Va cheering her up. Also Taus are inspired by the presense of the ethereals on the war lines (i know it could be something like a pheromone effect but still, they are encouranged by them).
2d: I suppose some human could fall in love with a Tau but the Tau way is not to been with a "special someone" and specially they do not marry, insted they perform the Ta'liserra ceremony where a group of Taus FROM THE SAME CASTE cut each other with a ceremonial knife meaning that they trust each other and they will all watch each others back on their duty, and as for i know this groups dont care about the gender of their members. So basically if a human gets the crush for a Tau its would be more like "I feal flattered, but you are not my type" (tipe? not natural english speaker and google didnt help, so sorry if wrong).
3th. I dont think there is something like first or second class races among the Tau empire, we humans are way to used to the "piramid" way of life that some of us find difficult to belive there could be a system where everyone is treated like equal, for Taus id make a comparison with the old time villages where someone worked the earth, another one raises sheeps for the wool, another one made the bread and so. To make it short i totally agree with the one who said "I heard your race is great at taking out the trash"
Well I dont see why a Tau and a Human could not fall in love.
But not to sure how different the 2 cultures moral/social beliefs are. But those could be worked out.
As for how the Tau treat the humans as a whole id say they treat them a lot like the Kroot or the Vepsid.
Only better.
I can see the humans on worlds that side with the Tau working well within Tau Empire.
The Humans and the Tau have far more in common then Kroot/Vepsid seem to.
And once the Tau start arming the human worlds and upgrading there standard of living and allowing the humans to have some freedom in there engineering ideas then id think the Tau would love the humans. We are always looking to make something bigger or better.
I am not sure how much freedom the Kroot/Vepsid worlds have to "run" off and do there own thing. Im sure there is a treaty between the Tau and the other races to govern such things.
4M2A wrote:However there is almost no evidence of them acting on this which is what matters.
Mind control, abductions, secret medical experiments, mass sterilization, concentration camps, enslavement...
Sounds reminiscent of an army that was featured in Europe circa 1945... They wore grey, black and red... Can't quite recall their name though.
Kroothawk wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
4M2A wrote:However there is almost no evidence of them acting on this which is what matters.
Mind control, abductions, secret medical experiments, mass sterilization, concentration camps, enslavement...
Can't find them in my Codex. Wait! They aren't in the Codex!
Maybe a list of words is not enough as evidence
Pen≥Sword wrote:
corporal_reznov wrote:Again you ignore all other sources and simply focus on this one book. I know you are going to call me a hypocrite but you're wrong, I have one source from Lexicanum.com and Rogue trader rpg as well as Redscare's quotes from Tau codex 3rd edition which you conveniently ignore.
Using an older edition of rules to trump newer ones is usually incorrect.
Logic: Use it. +1 for Pen≥Sword's comment.
DickBandit wrote:Kroot have to sit in the back of the Devilfish.
I laughed so hard I sprayed Dr. Pepper out of my nostrils. Thankfully, I was able to avoid the keyboard. The mouse, however, was not so lucky.
Synopsis: The fanboys of any race, some more than others, will always view their FICTIONAL race in favorable light.
Point and example: Dark Eldar aren't entirely evil. They pillage, enslave and torture for the survival of their species. Okay... I couldn't even keep a straight face typing that.
Oh there is definately Tau fluff that portrays them as evil, but it's much less than the fluff that supports them. People just like to choose one side and support it regardless of facts.
When their entire purpose in the setting is to add a "good" faction (as stated by the designers) you can't really it's hard to argue they are evil.
Homosexuals can breed, albeit with artificial insemination or serigraph parents.
So how is that different than a possible Tau Human relationship with adopted children/sperm donors from either race?
Even if there were some highly bizarre individuals that were interested in other species, and yes it would be like someone who has a bestiality fetish. However with animals at least they have simlilar bits to humans. With Xenos there would be considerable difficulty getting the bits to fit.
They have a mouth/anus don't they? I wouldn't really worry about getting the bits to fit, humans have been very adept at what we've been able to get our "bits" into.
Beside the point Tau society would likely not allow races to attempt to interbreed, they don't let the castes interbreed.
Oh I agree on that, I was just asking for an opinion of the poster whom I quoted.
I've always figured it would be nothing terribly serious like lynching or anything, just an excuse for tau to act like jerks to integrated races. Say, humans.
*Tau takes last parking space at restaurant*
"Aw, sorry gue'la! It's for the greater good, you know?"
*Tau buys that one last beer at the convenience store you've been visualizing at work all day*
"Sorry, Greater Good and all that. I'm sure you understand."
*Come home to find your girlfriend sleeping with a fire warrior*
"Hey, SHE asked me first. Also, Greater Good. Did I mention that part?"
I think you are projecting human psychology onto aliens.
It seems a bit unlikely the Tau themselves are racist when their every thought is rigidly controlled by the Ethereals in order to maintain order within the Empire.
There might be some racism among the other species that make up the Federation, though on the whole it looks more like Star Trek.
Kilkrazy wrote:I think you are projecting human psychology onto aliens.
It seems a bit unlikely the Tau themselves are racist when their every thought is rigidly controlled by the Ethereals in order to maintain order within the Empire.
There might be some racism among the other species that make up the Federation, though on the whole it looks more like Star Trek.
I think this is the best answer to my question. Now I understand.
not the Tau fan.........
. The Tau do sterilize, it is shown in dark crusade and in the 
. The Tau not using force as a first choice in the end nothing but the Tau being very clever and using diplomacy to undermine a races own government before they get that race to join them. Are you say that the Imperium purging the galaxy of aliens is a bad things? I don't see it that way. 9 times of 10 the aliens of 
Just like there are some humans who much prefer animals to other humans.
