(1) Yes, I want them in the book. I'm not sure if they should be, however.
(2) Fluff-wise, I'm looking at what happened between Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Grey Knights. As predicted, the GK stole the spotlight from the Inquisitors. I think it's safe to assume that the same will happen with the Sisters. I think there is now some question as to whether Inquisitors will even be present in a new Sisters dex (at least, relative to there having been no question whatsoever about this pre-Codex: Grey Knights). If the GK book was GK + Inq rather than "Ordo Malleus" then one wonders whether a Sisters dex will really be Sisters + Inq. On one hand, redundancy seems wasteful. On the other hand, two words: Space Marines. The rumormill hints that the Sisters book will see a heavy focus on the Ecclesiarchy, which is roundly welcomed by the fans. In other words, this could be a "rest of the Imperium (except Mechanicum)" book and in that case, it's the only place Arbites are likely to appear at all.
(3) Here's the difficult part: where would they fit rules-wise? When I think of Arbites, I think shotgun + shock/power maul. So how does that work with an army that already has bolters and eviscerators? It's hard for me to think of a role that really needs filling in a potential Sisters list that Arbites would logically fit. Any thoughts? Nearest I can think of is to have them as an elites tarpit specialist (riot shields) and maybe a fast attack biker option.
(4) If they do make it in, I'd dearly love a special character ("High Marshall Grimm" or somesuch) that let's you take Arbites as troops if they are not already a troops choice.
And finally, some will undoubtedly argue that one can already field an arbites army by proxying Inquisitorial henchmen or IG. Personally, I don't think either is a good option.
1) They belong, if the codex contains more than just the sisters themselves.
2) Arbites are the Police force. Still have to oppose those who turn from the IoM, and could be the local part of a force of imperials.
Won't have heavy weapons, but fast vehicles and anti-riot gear.
3) If there is a place at all for them, it is as supportive. ( like certain squads in IG ). Maybe as a blocking unit.
So rather a squad and maybe a upgrade character. Could slow down opponents depending on equipment.
Plus given fast transports, they could grab objectives late in game.
Wargear: shotguns, shock mauls/shields, sniper rifle, grenade launcher.
Vehicles: 4wheeled fast transport and/or rhino. Extra armor, heavy stubbers.
I would absolutely love an Adeptus Arbites Cities of Death Army. I can imagine them using Repressors as vehicles, or realistically something even lighter armoured and open topped, seeing as though they're supposed to be a police unit.
1hadhq wrote:Arbites are the Police force. Still have to oppose those who turn from the IoM, and could be the local part of a force of imperials.
Yes, from what I understand their presence helps to remind the governor of the Golden Throne. So when there is a planetary uprising, Arbitrators will almost always be the first line of loyalist action (along with Sisters, when present) other than PDF formations that remain loyal.
Why would you say they shouldn't have heavy weapons? Is that a fluff judgment or a rules consideration (i.e., duplicative of Retributors)?
1hadhq wrote:Vehicles: 4wheeled fast transport
sphynx wrote:. . . or realistically something even lighter armoured and open topped, seeing as though they're supposed to be a police unit.
Do you gentlemen mean something like this?
Granted, it needs to be "grimdark'd up" quite a lot. Frankly, I don't care about having Arbites-specific vehicles other than one thing:
I think they should have a choice between shock mauls and riot shotguns for basic equipment with 3 special weapons allowed, maybe not meltas or plasma guns, but special riot equipment and beefed up grenade launchers.
Why would you say they shouldn't have heavy weapons? Is that a fluff judgment or a rules consideration (i.e., duplicative of Retributors)?
- Arbites shouldn't duplicate sisters would be one point.
- Arbites mainly caring for "infantry" the other.
- Not seen heavy weapons in fluff ,except as defensive ones for their police stations.
- maybe a few heavys installed on vehicles.
- Maybe a nice variety of grenades to choose from, mines?
If the Arbites are the cops as it were. Then I see no need for them to be represented in a war game. The cops are not equipped or trained as inf or mech-inf. The could if pressed be a townie resistance group but thats about it. Its kind of a waste of effort unless you want to drive your rhino over the street cruiser monster truck style. SWAT snipers are again as i see it as a hive defense unit but other than that no. The Arbites have about as much place as Miranda rights on the battlefield.
Perhaps in the same way that the Gk got a unit that represents all of the inquisitorial Henchmen, maybe there will be something similar in the Sisters of Battle book.
Most books these days have more than 1 troops option. With that in mind there may be an option for Humans in flak armor (Fraternus Millitia or something like that right?)
If that is the case, it would be very simple to say "a unit of Fraternus Millia can be upgraded to Adeptus Arbites by swapping their "whatever gun they have" for "Shotgun and Riot Shield" for x points a model. If this option is taken, then the squad leader can take a "shock maul or some other things" for y points.
I think the biggest question for the book right now is What units besides the Sisters will there be in the book? at the moment there are only 1-2 sister units for each FOC and tht is not enough to make an entire codex.
Zakiriel wrote:If the Arbites are the cops as it were. Then I see no need for them to be represented in a war game. The cops are not equipped or trained as inf or mech-inf.
This is a common misunderstanding of Arbites. They are probably the only organization besides the Ministorum that has a presence on nearly every planet in the Imperium. They police the planetary leadership as much as the rest of the population. Indeed, sometimes they are the only direct representatives of Terra on a planet. And given the size and power of hiver crime syndicates, they're jobs aren't too different from an urban combat specialist military unit. It's pretty well established that they have military-grade weapons and vehicles too.
Giving them a troops option of arbites with a special vehicle (or an HQ that unlocks them as troops as seems to be the trend) and/or having them be a fast attack unit with a free (not as good as a chimera) transport would work well I believe.
And arbites aren't cops. They are what the cops see as cops in a sense.
I believe the Arbites belong with the Inq. If it's just Sisters I would be surprised if they were in it. If they are in the next sisters codex with Inq I would love to see them developed more, with some HQ or elite plus fast attack units. Fluff wise it doesn't make sense for them to have lots of heavy support out side of crowd control devices so a full army list would have limits. I hope Arbites make it into the Codex though, I have too many Rhino's with flashing lights and don't want to have to roll them with Grey Knights. ( Judge Cortez! ) However, I don't foresee GW doing anything with the line. Plastic Arbites? I would love them but I don't see it happening.
Kanluwen wrote:There's no real reason for guys with riot gear to be on the tabletop.
First off, they would make no sense at all in a Guard book. As defenders of the Imperium againsy wayward humans (including witches) they make sense in an Ordo Hereticus book. Even in a Sisters + Ecclesiarchy book, where the focus is still inward, they could have a place. (I fully admit it's more tenuous. In fact, I don't think there is much of a chance for them at all for other reasons.) As for keeping riot shields off the table, I don't think you really understand the function of the Arbites in the Imperium.
1) I would want them in the book rather than not have them exist ever. I'd rather they had their own book.
2) Background-wise they don't. I don't see any relation to the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy. I really, really don't want them to become ecclesiarcal cronies. SoBs have that role filled
3) I want to see the infamous arbites cyber-matiff! Scourge of criminals everywhere. 4) yes and no. Like I said I'd rather they have their own book. I want to be able to make an adepts arbites army but I also feel the Sisters should be the star of their own book. Separation of the two forces is the best.
Kanluwen wrote:There's no real reason for guys with riot gear to be on the tabletop.
First off, they would make no sense at all in a Guard book. As defenders of the Imperium againsy wayward humans (including witches) they make sense in an Ordo Hereticus book. Even in a Sisters + Ecclesiarchy book, where the focus is still inward, they could have a place. (I fully admit it's more tenuous. In fact, I don't think there is much of a chance for them at all for other reasons.) As for keeping riot shields off the table, I don't think you really understand the function of the Arbites in the Imperium.
And I don't think you really understand the "Arbites" that people continually post that they want.
People seemingly aren't interested in fluffy Arbites who, by the by, would work perfectly fine in a Guard army...or at least the way that I would organize the Guard Codex. Arbites Kill-Teams/Suppression Teams as a kind of carapace armored close in down and dirty fight unit replacing Rough Riders for that role?
Yeah. That'd work. And it's not like there's no fluff for Arbites fighting alongside the Guard either. They just take on a different role when they fight alongside the PDF and Guard. They become more like pathfinders and guides, knowing the lay of their precint that they've been assigned to better than the Guard or the hastily called for PDF units.
I completely understand the function of Arbites in the Imperium. But the kinds of people clamoring for the Arbites don't want a stormtrooper look-alike. They want guys with riot shields and batons so they can make the Gajillionth Riot Police Battalion.
Throwing my 2 cents into the pot. I'm also going with a soft "no" on this one. One can make an arbites force with IG Vets with Shotguns. Fluff wise they'd fit more with the Inquisitors, and were acceptable when Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors were still with the Sisters. If Ordo Hereticus is not present in the new book (very likely), Arbites should go with them. If Inquisitors are present in the new Sisters book, then Arbites should definately remain, as Sisters are not as concerned about xeno matters, more with internal affairs compared to their SM and GK counterparts, so Arbites seems more synergistic. Rulewise though, they're more or less Vets with Carapace Armor and Shotguns, and wouldnt be that out of place in a Guard Army (reasoning that they're fighting on behalf of a local inquisitor).
Kanluwen wrote:the kinds of people clamoring for the Arbites don't want a stormtrooper look-alike. They want guys with riot shields and batons so they can make the Gajillionth Riot Police Battalion.
*raises hand*
I totally want to see a representative Arbites force, bursting with shotguns, to go up against my Genestealer Cult :3
That said, they are more of a skirmish-level army, whereas a modern 40K battle represents the sort of military engagement that would be more likely to follow the overrunning of enforcers and PDF. However, given that we have cavalry somehow managing not to get mown down the second it leaves the stable, I think we've twisted the reality of industrial warfare enough to find room for a couple of 'survivors' of the cult uprising appearing in an Apocalypse game, counting as SM Scouts/IGSTs/Vanguard Vets/etc.
Manchu wrote:How could I forget the cybermastif? A mastif and Arbites handler unit would be an awesome elites choice.
Totally. Also an Arbites 'dex could do for shotguns what SM did for bolters. We know almost a dozen different types of bolter shells and the shotgun is the Bolter of the arbiters. They even have bad-guy seeking buck! Also would like to see some sort of hurricane auto-shotgun. Still S3 but assault 4 like a baby splinter cannon.
For those who think arbitus are just cops: yes, they're cops the kind of cops you find in a South American Junta. They're a paramilitary organization. The adeptus arbites precinct being the last hundred loyalists holding out against millions of rebels in a world gone mad is a common 40k trope.
The grand poobah of the Arbites enjoys a permanent seat on the High Lords of Terra as is appropriate for the importance of his organization. Something not even the Astartes can claim.
No, but thats only becouse I think they should of been a limit 1 Elite IG unit. They would join a IG force, when there planet is under full scale invasion.
Kanluwen wrote:the kinds of people clamoring for the Arbites don't want a stormtrooper look-alike. They want guys with riot shields and batons so they can make the Gajillionth Riot Police Battalion.
*raises hand*
I totally want to see a representative Arbites force, bursting with shotguns, to go up against my Genestealer Cult :3
That said, they are more of a skirmish-level army, whereas a modern 40K battle represents the sort of military engagement that would be more likely to follow the overrunning of enforcers and PDF. However, given that we have cavalry somehow managing not to get mown down the second it leaves the stable, I think we've twisted the reality of industrial warfare enough to find room for a couple of 'survivors' of the cult uprising appearing in an Apocalypse game, counting as SM Scouts/IGSTs/Vanguard Vets/etc.
Which frankly is a fantastic idea for a new Specialist Game.
I think the Arbites should get their own book, they should be able to lead the penal battalions with explosive collars and bring back the bomb harness guys! Failing that they should be part of the next IG book, but still a separate army.
I thought the goal lately is to cut down on the number of books, not continually add books that are going to be 30 pages and take up months of development time?
Kanluwen wrote:I thought the goal lately is to cut down on the number of books, not continually add books that are going to be 30 pages and take up months of development time?
Whose goal? I think they need to release a large Imperial army book that would be like 3-4 codexes squashed together. Kind of like the old chaos books. There should also be only one loyalist marine book!
My hope would be that the Full size 6th edition rule book has some form of "kill team" rules. (small games of 500 or less points with more depth than a normal game)
With this, they could include rules for some of the smaller forces in the 40k universe that are simply just not right for a full codex or do not belong on a larger battlefield. This would give people some chance to make some fun models or use old ones that have been invalidated.
Examples:
Adeptus Arbites
Genstealer Cults
Adeptus Mechanus
Eldar Exodites
Demurig/squats
Hive Gangs
and so on...
For example the Arbites could be represented by just having rules for 4 units:
Elite: Sniper Team
Troop: Arbites with either Shotguns or Shield/Maul
Fast Attack: Cyber Mastiff unit
Transport: Whatever cop car thing they would use (repressor?)
One Elite, Troop, Fast attack and Dedicated tranport unit are all each of these forces would need. They are the only ones normally included in a Kill team.
Once the core rules for "Kill Team" are made, making a handful on units for a few forces would probably not take much time. Each Kill Team Force could be released as a PDF on the website or something.
svendrex wrote:My hope would be that the Full size 6th edition rule book has some form of "kill team" rules. (small games of 500 or less points with more depth than a normal game)
With this, they could include rules for some of the smaller forces in the 40k universe that are simply just not right for a full codex or do not belong on a larger battlefield. This would give people some chance to make some fun models or use old ones that have been invalidated.
Examples:
Adeptus Arbites
Genstealer Cults
Adeptus Mechanus
Eldar Exodites
Demurig/squats
Hive Gangs
and so on...
For example the Arbites could be represented by just having rules for 4 units:
Elite: Sniper Team
Troop: Arbites with either Shotguns or Shield/Maul
Fast Attack: Cyber Mastiff unit
Transport: Whatever cop car thing they would use (repressor?)
One Elite, Troop, Fast attack and Dedicated tranport unit are all each of these forces would need. They are the only ones normally included in a Kill team.
Once the core rules for "Kill Team" are made, making a handful on units for a few forces would probably not take much time. Each Kill Team Force could be released as a PDF on the website or something.
I agree, they don't warrant a Codex and they don't really belong with the SoB, but feth it they should be in the game. This is the most viable solution for not only the Arbites, but as you said other, smaller factions as well.
Ahem. Let's get back on topic. Arbites may not be the best fit for Sisters, you know, compared to having their own book, but C:SoB is the most likely place for them to show up if at all. (Again, the odds are against any Arbites, IMO.) These guys have no place in a Guard book, given that they have no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise. So the question remains: how could they fit into a SoB book? Personally, I'm more interested in a rules-based answer.
Kan, Arbites with riot shields are still correct. Of course the riot shields of the 41st millineum would probably be more than a plastic square with hazard stripes. I'm not talking storm shields necessarily but something worthwhile against nasty Grimdark weapons.
Manchu wrote:Ahem. Let's get back on topic. Arbites may not be the best fit for Sisters, you know, compared to having their own book, but C:SoB is the most likely place for them to show up if at all. (Again, the odds are against any Arbites, IMO.) These guys have no place in a Guard book, given that they have no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise. So the question remains: how could they fit into a SoB book? Personally, I'm more interested in a rules-based answer.
Kan, Arbites with riot shields are still correct. Of course the riot shields of the 41st millineum would probably be more than a plastic square with hazard stripes. I'm not talking storm shields necessarily but something worthwhile against nasty Grimdark weapons.
If that's all you're looking for, I believe the previous installation of Adeptus Arbites was as Storm Troopers with shotguns.
Maybe it's not the role you're looking for, but apparently it worked for the 4th edition C:SoB.
I'm thinking of unit called Arbitrators in the book itself with actual rules and models specific to them, rather than counts-as bait like henchmen and their previous iterations.
Manchu wrote:Ahem. Let's get back on topic. Arbites may not be the best fit for Sisters, you know, compared to having their own book, but C:SoB is the most likely place for them to show up if at all. (Again, the odds are against any Arbites, IMO.) These guys have no place in a Guard book, given that they have no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise. So the question remains: how could they fit into a SoB book? Personally, I'm more interested in a rules-based answer.
How can you say they have "no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise" and then say that they "belong with the Sisters of Battle"?
The Arbites, period, don't belong on the battlefield if we really are going to find a reason for them to be around other than "because I would like them". It was a copout for Codex: Witchhunters to state that "Inquisitorial Stormtroopers could be used to represent Adeptus Arbites" because it diluted the theme of the Arbites to begin with.
Now, if they'd stated that it was to do something like Godwyn Fischig and "could be used to represent former Arbites who have joined an Inquisitor's retinue"--that's a different story and far more acceptable.
I should also point out that tying the Arbites with the Sisters is a fallacy. They were tied with the Inquisitorial elements, not the Ecclesiarchal elements(which is where we've been told the new SoB book is going with potential for there being pilgrims with guns in there).
Kan, Arbites with riot shields are still correct. Of course the riot shields of the 41st millineum would probably be more than a plastic square with hazard stripes. I'm not talking storm shields necessarily but something worthwhile against nasty Grimdark weapons.
You know what else is correct by all accounts?
Arbites Kill-Teams using boltguns, lasguns, heavy stubbers, etc with nary a 'riot shield' in sight.
I just don't see what role a shield and stick(notice: stick does not equal Thunder Hammer) would serve on a battlefield, with a carapace armor delivery system. I'll also point out that going off what info I've got readily available, the Arbites shields are regularly penetrated by anything stronger than autoguns.
At least with Kill-Teams as part of a Guard force you'd get some varying equipment and veteran skills that could be put to use--not to mention the potential for a themed PDF force with Arbites as part of a last ditch force.
But like I said. It would have to be part of my whole big reworked Codex system to really make it 'pop'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean, I guess when it comes down to it:
I don't see a role for them in Codex: SoB. I don't really see a role period for them in 40k unless things are shuffled around alot.
I feel the same way about the Inquisition and Adeptus Mechanicus, at least in terms of them being "full forces" of their own.
Manchu wrote:Ahem. Let's get back on topic. Arbites may not be the best fit for Sisters, you know, compared to having their own book, but C:SoB is the most likely place for them to show up if at all. (Again, the odds are against any Arbites, IMO.) These guys have no place in a Guard book, given that they have no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise. So the question remains: how could they fit into a SoB book? Personally, I'm more interested in a rules-based answer.
Kan, Arbites with riot shields are still correct. Of course the riot shields of the 41st millineum would probably be more than a plastic square with hazard stripes. I'm not talking storm shields necessarily but something worthwhile against nasty Grimdark weapons.
I don't know. I think penal armies would consist of Arbite squads mixed with penal squads with arbites as sergeants controlling the collars and of course the human bombs.
(1) Do Adeptus Arbites belong in the Sisters Book? Distinguish this from whether you want them in the book. I want them in the book, and think they do belong there. They're not just cops, they're often required to fight a defensive war against any cult that tries to take control of a planet, until reinforcements arrive. Having them support the Sisters' war against Heresy is a good enough excuse to allow point 2:
(2) Why/why not, according to fluff/marketing reasons? I'd love to see both a plastic Arbite kit and a plastic Frateris Militia kit (that look like Imperial citizens, not WHFB rejects). They wouldn't just sell to Sisters players - they'd be great to add character to Cityfight terrain, represent Necromunda gangs or just as assorted victims for factions like the Dark Eldar.
(3) Why/why not, according to rules reasons? I'd make them a Fast Attack or Elites choice with suppression shields and either shotguns or shock mauls.
(4) If you do think they belong, should there be an all-Arbites army option? Not really. A Judge, Arbite Patrols and Repressors would be good, but inventing new units to justify an expanded presence isn't worth the cost, IMO.
I think there's a fair argument to put them in the same book. Their roles as near-incorruptible bastions of Imperial faith (SoB's) and hegemony (Arbites) have enough overlap to justify the possibility of them having a significant presence in an 'everybody but us are dead or turncoats' SoB force facing up against the CSM/Tyranid/etc army that's coming to crush the last remnants of defence on a cult-owned world.
Furthermore, I think there's a fair argument to make it possible to field an all-Arbites force, with the condition that it be nothing more than fanservice for hardcore fans who want to pit it against a poorly-equipped Conscript-heavy IG force representing a cult, and not something that will stand a chance against a well-supplied military force with plenty of heavy hardware.
Manchu wrote:(1) Do Adeptus Arbites belong in the Sisters Book? Distinguish this from whether you want them in the book.
(2) Why/why not, according to fluff/marketing reasons?
(3) Why/why not, according to rules reasons?
(4) If you do think they belong, should there be an all-Arbites army option?
1: As part of the Ecclesiarchal forces in the book, sure why not.
2: The Ecclesiarchy is already made up of non-military units, and certainly the Arbites would participate in this rather than hiding.
3: They'd make a nice elites or fast attack choice for an ecclesiarchy themed army depending on their rules.
4: No, but they should be able to have an all-ecclesiarchy army even if the focus is on Sisters. At least one unit per FoC slot.
As a side note:
(at least, relative to there having been no question whatsoever about this pre-Codex: Grey Knights)
There was always this question, given that they said repeatedly that they'd focus on Sisters of Battle. The assumption was that they wouldn't disclude them sure, but there was still always a question fo whether or not they would.
@Melissia: I'm not sure why you are lumping Arbites with the Ecclesiarchy. As to the Inquisition question, I was referring to seeing Inqs from all ordos in the GK book -- I didn't see anyone predict that one. I also can't tell what you mean by "disclude." My perception was that these would be GK and SoB books rather than "Deamonhunters" and "Witch Hunters," not that either or both books would include every ordo or that one would possibly include none. That's the question as it stands, IMO. Now, one implication of this and the rumor mill is that the Sisters book must have more than Sisters (even though this is not really a lesson from the GK book). The assumption has been Ecclesiarchy but it could -- because of their thematic link as first line planetary defenders -- include Arbites. Just to clarify, the Adeptus Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy have nothing to do with one another organizationally. If Arbites make it into any dex in the next 5 years, it will be a new Sisters book: this is because of their job keeping the Imperium in line -- which is the same in general scope as the Sisters' mission -- not because of some Ecclesiarchical link.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote:Furthermore, I think there's a fair argument to make it possible to field an all-Arbites force, with the condition that it be nothing more than fanservice for hardcore fans who want to pit it against a poorly-equipped Conscript-heavy IG force representing a cult, and not something that will stand a chance against a well-supplied military force with plenty of heavy hardware.
This harkens back to Codex: Witch Hunters and, helas, GW seems to have turned away from such things.
As I understand it, there are more orders of Sisters than important Imperial Shrine Worlds. Sisters seem to go around wherever there are high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries -- and that could be on just about every world in the Imperium. The point is that both Guard and Astartes are forces that you call in. Arbites and Sororitas are generally "already there, thanks" forces.
Manchu wrote:As I understand it, there are more orders of Sisters than important Imperial Shrine Worlds.
Not sure where this "more orders of Sisters than important Imperial Shrineworlds" is coming from. There's supposed to be what, 6 Major Orders and a hundred or so(at best) Minor Orders?
There's entire sectors filled with more Shrineworlds than Major Orders.
Sisters seem to go around wherever there are high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries -- and that could be on just about every world in the Imperium.
And high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries mainly go to Shrineworlds.
For that matter, if we go off IA5: A high-ranking, charismatic individual such as the guy who brought about the whole secession of Vraks (which had a Shrine renowned throughout the sector as well)?
He merited a 'bodyguard' squad. Not an entire Order.
The point is that both Guard and Astartes are forces that you call in. Arbites and Sororitas are generally "already there, thanks" forces.
The PDF and Arbites are the "already on it, thanks guys" forces.
Sororitas have to be called in for the most part, same as Guard and Astartes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean when it comes down to it:
I guess if they're going to cram them in, they're going to cram them in. Just like they did with the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors and Hereticus Inquisitors in the Grey Knights book.
Kanluwen wrote:There's supposed to be what, 6 Major Orders and a hundred or so(at best) Minor Orders?
No, that's incorrect (the second part). You may want to check out Blood of Martyrs.
Kanluwen wrote:
Manchu wrote:Sisters seem to go around wherever there are high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries -- and that could be on just about every world in the Imperium.
And high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries mainly go to Shrineworlds.
Judging by Calixis, there are several cardinals in each sector. That's hardly a one-to-one correspondence with Shrineworlds.
Sororitas have to be called in for the most part, same as Guard and Astartes.
It seems like whenever Sisters come up, they are the ones who are already present and getting slaughtered. I'm not saying that I care for this "damsels in distress" syndrome but they are in fact located on planets -- the IG and Astartes are organizationally wandering from place to place
I guess if they're going to cram them in, they're going to cram them in. Just like they did with the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors and Hereticus Inquisitors in the Grey Knights book.
I don't think it's likely. I'd be very happy if it was the case, however. My trouble is envisioning their role vis-a-vis the FOC and their rules.
Manchu wrote:Just to clarify, the Adeptus Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy have nothing to do with one another organizationally.
I know this. But my point was more that the stats of the arbites mesh well with that of the ecclesiarchy as elite units, and the ecclesiarchy convincing arbites to join in (or rather, assisting the arbites, whom probably were already fighting) is hardly going against the lore of the game.
Kanluwen wrote:There's supposed to be what, 6 Major Orders and a hundred or so(at best) Minor Orders?
No, that's incorrect (the second part). You may want to check out Blood of Martyrs.
Pass. No interest in reading about Sisters. They're my least favorite part of the background, frankly. Well...next to the Ecclesiarchy in general. Always ruining the Inquisition and Guard's deployment orders.
Manchu wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Manchu wrote:Sisters seem to go around wherever there are high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries -- and that could be on just about every world in the Imperium.
And high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries mainly go to Shrineworlds.
Judging by Calixis, there are several cardinals in each sector. That's hardly a one-to-one correspondence with Shrineworlds.
"Mainly go to Shrineworlds" doesn't mean that 'every Shrineworld has one'.
It means that they're going to make visiting Shrineworlds a priority.
Sororitas have to be called in for the most part, same as Guard and Astartes.
It seems like whenever Sisters come up, they are the ones who are already present and getting slaughtered. I'm not saying that I care for this "damsels in distress" syndrome but they are in fact located on planets -- the IG and Astartes are organizationally wandering from place to place
The Guard aren't wandering. They're going from warzone to warzone.
Same with the Astartes.
It might sound silly, but I think there's been some mistaken information about Sisters that's been going into these books with Sisters. Wouldn't be the first time though.
I guess if they're going to cram them in, they're going to cram them in. Just like they did with the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors and Hereticus Inquisitors in the Grey Knights book.
I don't think it's likely. I'd be very happy if it was the case, however. My trouble is envisioning their role vis-a-vis the FOC and their rules.
Their role in a Sisters book would be the same role as any other Sisters unit, just in Carapace Armor. A short-ranged counterpunch unit.
I mean when it comes down to it. Arbites with Riot Shields is a silly thing on the tabletop.
Arbites as pathfinders and scouts, clad in Carapace Armor and using their specialist shotgun ammunition, boltguns, heavy stubbers with suspensor braces, etc leading in the forces coming to crush insurrection?
Far, far cooler and more representative of their goal. And it works far better in that role, highlighting the badassery of the Arbites if you put them in with the Guard.
With Sisters--they're overshadowed by the power armored nuns.
As things stand, however, I think the best counts-as option for building an Arbites army is IG vets. And that's basically what you're describing, right? I'm hoping for something more distinct but am having trouble envisioning it, I guess because (1) we don't know a lot about the Arbites organizationally except that they are a 'small army'-strength presence on almost every Imperial world (that alone is enough for a dex by some estimates but there's no Codex: Planetary Defense Forces, either) and (2) we don't really know what to expect from the Sisters dex. The inclusion of all-ordos Inqs in C:GK was a real curve ball.
Manchu wrote:As things stand, however, I think the best counts-as option for building an Arbites army is IG vets. And that's basically what you're describing, right?
See, I'm describing more an Arbites unit being part of the IG. A unique unit that grants unique abilities to Guard units within range. I'd do the same thing with "PDF Survivors" though.
I'm hoping for something more distinct but am having trouble envisioning it, I guess because (1) we don't know a lot about the Arbites organizationally except that they are a 'small army'-strength presence on almost every Imperial world (that alone is enough for a dex by some estimates but there's no Codex: Planetary Defense Forces, either)
Codex: Planetary Defense Forces--where every battle has to take place on the same planet, and you have to wait to be slaughtered!
Seriously. The PDF is equipped pretty well in many cases...but it's to deal with threats coming from within the planet, not without. The Guard are supposed to handle those.
(2) we don't really know what to expect from the Sisters dex. The inclusion of all-ordos Inqs in C:GK was a real curve ball.
And a mistake. There was no reason for all the Ordos(ESPECIALLY the special characters for all 3) to be included, unless it's clearly "Yeah...we're not gonna do each Inquisitorial branch anymore".
As for "we don't really know what to expect from the Sisters dex"--I dunno about that. Goodwin and Kelly have made it clear they're far more interested in doing "Codex: Ecclesiarchy" with Sisters being the main focus.
People who say Arbites shouldn't be in the 40K game or can't match up any of the forces haven't read enough.
The Arbites are an incredibly well-trained, disciplined and equipped fighting force, easily in advance of many PDFs and, in many case, superior even to Imperial Guard units.
In the recent Victories of the Space Marines book, well, I won't spoil it, but an attacking force of Astartes see the Arbites as the only force present in an entire system who could challenge them and have to re-work their plans as a result.
In the Grey Knights books, a force of Arbites works alongside Justicar Alaric to wipe out a daemonic infestation.
They are the God-Emperor's enforcers, the protectors of the sacred Lex Imperialis, and they would be the equal of Guardsmen or even Storm Troopers.
Miraclefish wrote:People who say Arbites shouldn't be in the 40K game or can't match up any of the forces haven't read enough.
The Arbites are an incredibly well-trained, disciplined and equipped fighting force, easily in advance of many PDFs and, in many case, superior even to Imperial Guard units.
People who say things like "People who say Arbites shouldn't be in the 40k game" should read the reasoning before tossing out stones.
Arbites, while well-trained, disciplined, and equipped well--they're usually dead by the time the Guard arrive having sold their lives to the Emperor to try to hold the peace long enough for reinforcements to come to clean the world.
In the recent Victories of the Space Marines book, well, I won't spoil it, but an attacking force of Astartes see the Arbites as the only force present in an entire system who could challenge them and have to re-work their plans as a result.
...That's adorable.
And so very wrong. Was this Alpha Legion who were attacking? Because that's the only reason I can see the two things being tied together.
In the Grey Knights books, a force of Arbites works alongside Justicar Alaric to wipe out a daemonic infestation.
And then afterwards, everyone of them is 'purged'.
Seriously. Anyone working alongside the Grey Knights can 'wipe out' a Daemonic infestation.
They are the God-Emperor's enforcers, the protectors of the sacred Lex Imperialis, and they would be the equal of Guardsmen or even Storm Troopers.
Nobody's really disputing that. But the idea of the Arbites as a full fledged force on the tabletop or being in large enough numbers to serve as the 'basic' troop for a force is laughable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess with a "TL;DR" version:
Arbites are cool. They're awesome, in fact.
But they don't belong on the tabletop as an army or basic troop choice.
The idea of Arbites existing in a standalone Codex (even with PDF) is a nice idea. I envisage it coming out many years after Codex: Night Lords.
In the meantime, it seems to me that they're best represented as counting as Storm Troopers, and their vehilces couting as Chimeras.
Maybe, if a cult vs Arbites campaign is planned and absolutely needs to be using Official Codex Rules, use SM Scouts and PW/SS Vanguards to represent them. In the fluff, Marines are way harder than their tabletop rules, so using toned-down balanced Marine rules within an uprising campaign bubble will produce a reasonable approximation of the one-on-one imbalance between a cultist and an Arbite. Within that paradigm, you could even use a riot vehicle as a LR Redeemer, counting its lethality and durability as representing how weak the weapons of the cult are relative to the standard of equip the Arbites use.
In fact, this sort of narrative-based arranged battle would represent the Arbites far better than throwing in all manner of new stuff and an obligatory plasitic MC to try to make them workable as an all-comers or tourney army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and Arbites are very RT-2ed, and back then every Imperial force had a yard full of Land Raiders, so it'd be even more period accurate
lindsay40k wrote:Maybe, if a cult vs Arbites campaign is planned and absolutely needs to be using Official Codex Rules, use SM Scouts and PW/SS Vanguards to represent them.
You'd be better off using TH/SS Terminators - that's how much Ward screwed up the price on certain upgrades.
Come to think of it, if shock mauls were to power weapons what thunder hammers were to power fists, that would be a pretty good way of representing the weapon, wouldn't it?
@Kanluwen: While 40k's background does deal with some very big conflicts, the game itself is played at a tiny level. You might have a hundred or so Guardsmen on the table but is that really indicative of the scale of the IG whenever it's involved? And if you're using the tens of millions of IG soldiers that actually fight in planetary-scale engagements, much less the great masses that fight in sector-wide wars, as the benchmark then Space Marines don't belong in 40k, either, as they are simply not numerically up to the task. Yeah, there's the old 1000:1 ration between Guardsmen and Space Marines but even at that rate, the Marines don't make up for their numbers.
IMO, it's best not to think too hard about the "realism" factor when measuring up the 40k game with the 40k universe. It's like wondering how ten heroic scale SM fit in a heroic scale Rhino. But I digress . . .
Now if it's not a question of numbers, it must be one of equipment. In that case, you don't have much of an argument. The Arbites seem to be better quipped at an Enforcer-to-Guardsman comparison. They use Rhinos and Repressors. There really is no argument from fluff that they don't have heavy weapons, either, considering that part of their mandate pits them against sector-wide criminal cartels that are likely armed as well or better than PDF if not Guardsmen as well.
I do agree that I'd rather see them as an Elite than a Troop unit, other than being taken as troops via a character. But as lindsay40k mentioned, I doubt such a force would be too competitive. I have heard good things about Death Cult Assassin henchmen armies, however. With GW, you never know -- and you get the sense that they never know, either.
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AlexHolker wrote:Come to think of it, if shock mauls were to power weapons what thunder hammers were to power fists, that would be a pretty good way of representing the weapon, wouldn't it?
I'll have to look it up in the DH materials. but I think shock mauls are the lesser of power mauls. Shock mauls would probably just be a CCW.
Manchu wrote:@Melissia: I'm not sure why you are lumping Arbites with the Ecclesiarchy. As to the Inquisition question, I was referring to seeing Inqs from all ordos in the GK book -- I didn't see anyone predict that one. I also can't tell what you mean by "disclude." My perception was that these would be GK and SoB books rather than "Deamonhunters" and "Witch Hunters," not that either or both books would include every ordo or that one would possibly include none. That's the question as it stands, IMO. Now, one implication of this and the rumor mill is that the Sisters book must have more than Sisters (even though this is not really a lesson from the GK book). The assumption has been Ecclesiarchy but it could -- because of their thematic link as first line planetary defenders -- include Arbites. Just to clarify, the Adeptus Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy have nothing to do with one another organizationally. If Arbites make it into any dex in the next 5 years, it will be a new Sisters book: this is because of their job keeping the Imperium in line -- which is the same in general scope as the Sisters' mission -- not because of some Ecclesiarchical link.
So we agree that the Arbites have nothing to do with The Eccelsiarchy then how do we justify their existance in this book? If the Arbites don't have an HQ choice then the will have some how come under the command of the church. That's not right. If an all Arbites force can be made from a Sisters of Battle codex, well, that's just weird. Like I said I want some Arbites representation somewhere but I'm having a tough time justifiing it in the SoB 'dex.
Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: While 40k's background does deal with some very big conflicts, the game itself is played at a tiny level. You might have a hundred or so Guardsmen on the table but is that really indicative of the scale of the IG whenever it's involved? And if you're using the tens of millions of IG soldiers that actually fight in planetary-scale engagements, much less the great masses that fight in sector-wide wars, as the benchmark then Space Marines don't belong in 40k, either, as they are simply not numerically up to the task. Yeah, there's the old 1000:1 ration between Guardsmen and Space Marines but even at that rate, the Marines don't make up for their numbers.
The game is meant to represent a snapshot of an 'important part' of an overall war.
That ratio of Guardsmen v. Space Marines isn't necessarily applicable here. After all: who does the Imperium use for surgical strikes or tipping the scales at critical moments?
I'm pretty sure it's those crazy Space Marines.
Now, would they commit as many as we see on the tabletop? Probably not. You'd likely see a force that would number about the same as a Draigowing force.
But we've got the 'Marines have been toned down from the fluff' reason to thank for the Marine spam forces.
IMO, it's best not to think too hard about the "realism" factor when measuring up the 40k game with the 40k universe. It's like wondering how ten heroic scale SM fit in a heroic scale Rhino. But I digress . . .
Like a clown car. There's your realism, sah!
Now if it's not a question of numbers, it must be one of equipment.
It's not a question of numbers or equipment. It's the fact that the majority of the Arbites are dead before rebellions and invasions escalate to the stage that we see in 40k on the tabletop.
What's left over from that would be a few isolated Precints or Arbites who've piled bodies of the traitorous bastards to the level of the skyscrapers they're trying to defend.
In that case, you don't have much of an argument. The Arbites seem to be better quipped at an Enforcer-to-Guardsman comparison. They use Rhinos and Repressors.
Rhinos are better than Chimeras? That's news to me.
Oh wait. You mean Rhinos are better for Arbites, who value speed and response time(oddly enough: much like the Astartes) over the Chimeras and their overall protection+firepower capabilities.
Guard use Chimeras because it provides them with a 'mobile bunker' to work with. A turret mounting a relatively heavy weapon and heavy armor plating=A Very Good Thing when you're wearing flak armor and engaged in combat against the Imperium's real enemies.
There really is no argument from fluff that they don't have heavy weapons, either, considering that part of their mandate pits them against sector-wide criminal cartels that are likely armed as well or better than PDF if not Guardsmen as well.
So they're facing criminal cartels that have tanks? Again: news to me. Cults and Cartels with loads of heavy weapons, aerial support, etc?
The foes they face are not the same. Guard do not regularly face Guard or PDF equivalents. They're regularly facing foes that are better equipped or outnumber them.
I do agree that I'd rather see them as an Elite than a Troop unit, other than being taken as troops via a character. But as lindsay40k mentioned, I doubt such a force would be too competitive. I have heard good things about Death Cult Assassin henchmen armies, however. With GW, you never know -- and you get the sense that they never know, either.
There's still a disconnect in what I'm saying and how you're processing it.
I'm not saying they need to be an Elite choice. I'm saying they need to be in a place where it is obvious that they are an elite, specialized unit.
Well, as mentioned throughout the thread, Arbites and Soritas share the roles of being watchdogs of Terra, both guarding the Imperium from itself. Plus, I don't think we can say for sure that Codex: SoB will really end up as Codex: Ecclesiarchy. That's a rumor spurred on by many hopes but there's nothing hard and fast as of yet to back it up. It stands to reason that this book will be about Sisters first and foremost (hence why I am calling it Codex: SoB) and we know that the Sisters are getting new sculpts. Beyond that, it's speculation. Part of the speculation I've read around Dakka mentioned Arbites. This thread is about (was supposed to be about) discussing how they will fit into a Sisters dex, assuming that they are in it.
Manchu wrote:Well, as mentioned throughout the thread, Arbites and Soritas share the roles of being watchdogs of Terra, both guarding the Imperium from itself. Plus, I don't think we can say for sure that Codex: SoB will really end up as Codex: Ecclesiarchy. That's a rumor spurred on by many hopes but there's nothing hard and fast as of yet to back it up. It stands to reason that this book will be about Sisters first and foremost (hence why I am calling it Codex: SoB) and we know that the Sisters are getting new sculpts. Beyond that, it's speculation. Part of the speculation I've read around Dakka mentioned Arbites. This thread is about (was supposed to be about) discussing how they will fit into a Sisters dex, assuming that they are in it.
@Kanluwen: You need to read up on Arbites. It's not surprising that you don't know much about them given that they're not really mentioned in codices anymore or IA books. The only real source is DH. I think you would reappraise your view of them after studying that information a bit.
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Kanluwen wrote:Sororitas aren't "the watchdogs of Terra".
What practical purpose do Soritas serve? They protect the Imperium against threats from inside. This has always been their shtick, since the days that they were SM-hunters to being signed up as the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus.
Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: You need to read up on Arbites. It's not surprising that you don't know much about them given that they're not really mentioned in codices anymore or IA books. The only real source is DH. I think you would reappraise your view of them after studying that information a bit.
What am I really getting wrong about Arbites? I know their role. I know their make-up, or what little of it we have information on.
It doesn't change that they still aren't a force that would be traveling the stars righting wrongs or a force that would be throwing their lot in with the Ecclesiarchy. They'd be a force wholly committed to the job they've been given: ensuring that the Lex Imperialis is left unbroken.
Kanluwen wrote:Sororitas aren't "the watchdogs of Terra".
What practical purpose do Soritas serve? They protect the Imperium against threats from inside. This has always been their shtick, since the days that they were SM-hunters to being signed up as the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus.
Who said anything about them being "practical"? Or disagreeing that they "protect"(really, really, really loosely using this term because it's not really correct) the Imperium against threats from the inside?
The Sisters usually show up when the Lex Imperialis has already broken down. They're not "protecting" the Imperial citizenry from threats--their job is to punish the citizenry for allowing those threats to exist.
Using the Sisters to "protect the Imperium against threats from within" is, to put it bluntly the equivalent of setting your head on fire to avoid dandruff.
And it steps on the toes of the Arbites and PDF as well. Which I guess is something I can see the Ecclesiarchy jerkholes as doing.
Kanluwen wrote:What am I really getting wrong about Arbites? I know their role. I know their make-up, or what little of it we have information on.
Not really. You don't seem to be aware of the nature of their opponents ("So they're facing criminal cartels that have tanks? Again: news to me. Cults and Cartels with loads of heavy weapons, aerial support, etc?") so I doubt that you have an accurate idea of how they might be equipped.
It doesn't change that they still aren't a force that would be traveling the stars righting wrongs or a force that would be throwing their lot in with the Ecclesiarchy.
This has no bearing on whether or not they are a part of 40k.
They'd be a force wholly committed to the job they've been given: ensuring that the Lex Imperialis is left unbroken.
Yes, and the scale of that means going toe-to-toe with rogue Governors and even more powerful figures than that.
Or disagreeing that they "protect"(really, really, really loosely using this term because it's not really correct) the Imperium against threats from the inside?
Now you've lost me. You don't think the Sisters of Battle protect the Imperium? There must be some kind of failure to communicate here.
The Sisters usually show up when the Lex Imperialis has already broken down. They're not "protecting" the Imperial citizenry from threats--their job is to punish the citizenry for allowing those threats to exist.
First, Sisters are not a responsive formation like the IG. Sisters are assigned to particular locations. They're already there when the fighting starts. Should-to-shoulder with the Arbites, one might say. Second, punishing Imperial Citizens is the same thing as protecting Imperial Citizens, from an authentically Imperial point of view. But there is no need to pretend that all Sisters do is kill Imperial Citizens. I daresay they're just as liable to fight Tyranids, Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Chaos of either flavor as Guard or Space Marines.
Kanluwen wrote:What am I really getting wrong about Arbites? I know their role. I know their make-up, or what little of it we have information on.
Not really. You don't seem to be aware of the nature of their opponents ("So they're facing criminal cartels that have tanks? Again: news to me. Cults and Cartels with loads of heavy weapons, aerial support, etc?") so I doubt that you have an accurate idea of how they might be equipped.
Not really. You're taking a question that was meant as facetious as an admission of lack of knowledge.
Arbites don't face those kinds of things on a day to day basis, whatever Dark Heresy might say.
There's a difference. Do they likely have access to the resources to do it? Yes. But it's a rarity that it will happen.
It doesn't change that they still aren't a force that would be traveling the stars righting wrongs or a force that would be throwing their lot in with the Ecclesiarchy.
This has no bearing on whether or not they are a part of 40k.
It does when it's the tabletop expression of 40k, I'd think. We don't have Genestealer Cults or Chaos Cults on the table. So why would we have the Arbites?
They'd be a force wholly committed to the job they've been given: ensuring that the Lex Imperialis is left unbroken.
Yes, and the scale of that means going toe-to-toe with rogue Governors and even more powerful figures than that.
When you're getting into rogue Governors, the Arbites are going to be working with the Guard or Astartes.
Or disagreeing that they "protect"(really, really, really loosely using this term because it's not really correct) the Imperium against threats from the inside?
Now you've lost me. You don't think the Sisters of Battle protect the Imperium? There must be some kind of failure to communicate here.
Clearly. I'm going to break it down for you:
The Sisters of Battle "protect" the Imperium from threats within like excising cancerous cells "protects" a patient from cancer. They're a reactive force which comes into play once things have gotten so bad that the only way to fix it is to purge it with fire and start anew.
Are they every so often called in to work alongside the Inquisition to clean out cults before things get that bad? Sure. But that doesn't mean that's all they do, 24/7.
The Sisters usually show up when the Lex Imperialis has already broken down. They're not "protecting" the Imperial citizenry from threats--their job is to punish the citizenry for allowing those threats to exist.
First, Sisters are not a responsive formation like the IG. Sisters are assigned to particular locations.
So why weren't there huge amounts of Sisters on Vraks? I mean it's a huge shrineworld with important significance. And they assigned a bodyguard unit to the Cardinal, that's it.
They're already there when the fighting starts. Should-to-shoulder with the Arbites, one might say. Second, punishing Imperial Citizens is the same thing as protecting Imperial Citizens, from an authentically Imperial point of view. But there is no need to pretend that all Sisters do is kill Imperial Citizens.
Sometimes they're already there when the fighting starts, yes. But they're not always going to be there and every instance of rebellion doesn't necessitate the involvement of the Ecclesiarchy. It's seemingly only when there's something for the Ecclesiarchy to gain that they get involved.
I daresay they're just as liable to fight Tyranids, Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Chaos of either flavor as Guard or Space Marines.
When it's a Shrineworld or Ecclesiarchy favored world being threatened, yes.
Sororitas aren't really considered "part of the Imperial warmachine"--and for good reason. They go where the Ecclesiarchy demands, not the Munitorum or Imperial Commanders order.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What I will say though is I'll leave this to wishlist.
Kanluwen wrote:Arbites don't face those kinds of things on a day to day basis, whatever Dark Heresy might say.
As opposed to what you say?
We don't have Genestealer Cults or Chaos Cults on the table. So why would we have the Arbites?
We do have Genestealers in 40k, though . . . Again, I'm not talking about an Arbites book. I'm talking about Arbites units in a Sisters book. Anyway, the current armies are not dispositive of what 40k is, has, been, and will always be about: there were both Arbites and Genestealer lists at one point, remember. Just like there had been a C:SoB, there wasn't one for a while, and now there will be one again (does anyone really think Codex: Ecclesiarchy will be the title?). Things change. That's what this thread is about: how a possible, if not very probable, change might play out.
So why weren't there huge amounts of Sisters on Vraks?
I really don't know. I mean, why were they present at Armageddon? And in force, I might add: several companies from the Order of the Argent Shroud at least. I think the Order of Our Martyred Lady was also present but I cannot remember the details. It's not a shrineworld, that I know of . . .
Sometimes they're already there when the fighting starts, yes. But they're not always going to be there and every instance of rebellion doesn't necessitate the involvement of the Ecclesiarchy. It's seemingly only when there's something for the Ecclesiarchy to gain that they get involved.
While the Sisters are deeply tied to the Ministorum, I don't think the current fluff supports this idea -- not without a lot of filling in the blanks on your own part, at least.
- Lord High Marshal XYZ (special character, a la Coteaz)
- Arbites Judge (generic Arbites HQ, similar to generic Inquisitor)
Elites:
- Arbitrator Squad w/Marshall: 5-15 dudes in carapace armor w/shotguns and shields+mauls; can take 1 cyber mastiff per 5 guys (can take a Rhino or Repressor as dedicated transport); I think something like WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1/2 Ld8/9 Sv 4+ (not sure how the shield should play into this).
Fast Attack
- Arbitrator Bike Squad w/Marshall: 3 - 10 dudes on bikes . . . not sure how to really make them useful but this is something I would dearly love to see
- Lord High Marshal XYZ (special character, a la Coteaz)
- Arbites Judge (generic Arbites HQ, similar to generic Inquisitor)
Elites:
- Arbitrator Squad w/Marshall: 5-15 dudes in carapace armor w/shotguns and shields+mauls; can take 1 cyber mastiff per 5 guys (can take a Rhino or Repressor as dedicated transport); I think something like WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1/2 Ld8/9 Sv 4+ (not sure how the shield should play into this).
Fast Attack
- Arbitrator Bike Squad w/Marshall: 3 - 10 dudes on bikes . . . not sure how to really make them useful but this is something I would dearly love to see
I'm down with grimdark Bike Cops. Too bad there's only 1 hoverbike left in the Imperium or they could be more Judge Dredd like.
I prefer the direction you are going with the cyber-dogs. I don't want them to be like DE beastmasters. They're like K9 units and so have a one to one bond with their masters/partners as opposed to DE Lion- Master types urging on their beats with a whip and chair. Continuing that thought, I would envision a unit that's half humans half mastiffs: maybe 5 and 5 or even 10 and 10.
For troops we do need the Grenadier like paramilitary cops. They'd be pretty strormtrooper-like but the biggest difference would probably be the weapons. Don't see them getting Hellguns but their own flavor of buck based weaponary.
Also in troops Kanluwen's Riot police. Riot Shields and ccws. Kan won't rest till we get these on the tabletop so let get them in ther first.
Finally, and I don't know how to incorporate this ,but what I like to call sheriff-arbites. Agri-Worlds often have like 2 guys representing the Arbites. They're litarally like The Sheriff and Deputy of a sleepy old time western town (that of course ends up in an adventure over his head). They have a strong sense of independance and resourcefulness. (Trying not to picture Judge dredd in cowboy hat chewing hay.......)
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AlexHolker wrote:
solles wrote:for what it's worth, the Imperial Guard Message Board has a thread relating to this:
I think the Cyber Mastiffs could stand in for having special weapon upgrades in the Elites slot (going with the Fakedex, let's call this the "Arbites Patrol Squad"). If that were the case, it might be cool to have an Arbites Heavy choice that also has no special weapon upgrades (leave that to the Retributors) but rather IG-style two-man weapons.
While not 100% satisfying to Arbites fans, you could model your IG stormtroopers as arbites or your Inquisitorial Henchmen as arbites if you want to play them right now.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Squeaky wheel gets the shock-maul I guess.
Hey, that's one of our moderator mottos! (Kidding, of course . . .) Seriously though, Kan, nice score. Are you going to paint him/them up?
Also, I'd be cool with Arbites Sentinels -- just not at the expense of a unit of Lawmasters! Er, I mean Lexmasters!
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:You lost me. Cyber-Mastifs are wargear for an Elites choice?
Well, yeah they kind of are like wargear. But I meant, rather than beefing up a unit by giving them a special weapons upgrade per so many guys give the patrol a Cyber Mastiff option for every five Arbitrators.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What?! Squeaky wheel gets the shock-maul I guess. Did you get to pick which model? What's it look like?
Yeah, I got to pick somethin'.
As to what it is: it's the entire Necromunda 'Arbites Enforcer Patrol Team'.
I think it's because I've been reporting errors on their site, rather than y'know...being a tool and posting N&R threads/OT about it and giggling like a child at issues with a website.
Manchu wrote:Seriously though, Kan, nice score. Are you going to paint him/them up?
Yep. Might even do a little diorama of them cutting down some zombies which I have a few sprues worth of from Warstore bitz grab bags.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What?! Squeaky wheel gets the shock-maul I guess. Did you get to pick which model? What's it look like?
Yeah, I got to pick somethin'.
As to what it is: it's the entire Necromunda 'Arbites Enforcer Patrol Team'.
I think it's because I've been reporting errors on their site, rather than y'know...being a tool and posting N&R threads/OT about it and giggling like a child at issues with a website.
Manchu wrote:Seriously though, Kan, nice score. Are you going to paint him/them up?
Yep. Might even do a little diorama of them cutting down some zombies which I have a few sprues worth of from Warstore bitz grab bags.
Nice, what's that guy on the right got? Some kinda heavy stubber?
The cyber mastiff is such a cool idea. It could really use a better model. It's alright with a decent paintjob, I guess. Here's the Necromunda model, painted very well by Dakka User KDLynch. Still, it doesn't really do the concept justice, IMO. The Inquisitor 54mm model is a lot better but of you can do more with a larger canvas.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Squeaky wheel gets the shock-maul I guess.
Hey, that's one of our moderator mottos! (Kidding, of course . . .) Seriously though, Kan, nice score. Are you going to paint him/them up?
Also, I'd be cool with Arbites Sentinels -- just not at the expense of a unit of Lawmasters! Er, I mean Lexmasters!
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:You lost me. Cyber-Mastifs are wargear for an Elites choice?
Well, yeah they kind of are like wargear. But I meant, rather than beefing up a unit by giving them a special weapons upgrade per so many guys give the patrol a Cyber Mastiff option for every five Arbitrators.
Yeah, they'll probably go that route but I want my big scary pack of dogs unit!
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Kanluwen wrote:KC: I'm pretty sure it's a heavy stubber.
I'll know on Thursday/Friday when it comes.
40K is missing that slot between an assault rifle and a heavy machine gun. The LMG if you will. Looks like that guys got it covered.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:You talking about the twin-linked heavy stubbers? I'm talking about a man-portable heavy weapon. A Light Machine Gun. Even Orks got them.
It's a 7.7mm which is a little bigger than the 7.62 fired from most modern MMGs... LMGs fire 5.56 or similar calibers normally. Though I guess that even a .50cal in 40k would be considered "lightweight"
Why the hell does that thing have a bayonet on it!? Is some Japanese maniac really going around trying to stab somebody with that? Anyways, getting off-topic I reckon.
Why the hell does that thing have a bayonet on it!? Is some Japanese maniac really going around trying to stab somebody with that? Anyways, getting off-topic I reckon.
Heh No idea...
just one last thing:
Kanluwen: With the detail on the mini I'd say it's kinda hard to notice any difference between the two... The features are all there... Conical muzzle, side handle, curved magazine on top of the weapon, rifle stock and pistol grip...
Why the hell does that thing have a bayonet on it!? Is some Japanese maniac really going around trying to stab somebody with that? Anyways, getting off-topic I reckon.
Yes they will. Island warfare almost always ended in brutal hand-to-hand, with no time to swith weapons, so it made since to fire until there right on top of you then stab the first guy to get to you with the gun. Watch some WW2 films, not movies, but really file footage, its not pretty.
Why the hell does that thing have a bayonet on it!? Is some Japanese maniac really going around trying to stab somebody with that? Anyways, getting off-topic I reckon.
Yes they will. Island warfare almost always ended in brutal hand-to-hand, with no time to swith weapons, so it made since to fire until there right on top of you then stab the first guy to get to you with the gun. Watch some WW2 films, not movies, but really file footage, its not pretty.
Yeah but that thing is kinda long and most importantly weighs 11 kg... I doubt you're going to stab anybody with that.
Miraclefish wrote:In the recent Victories of the Space Marines book, well, I won't spoil it, but an attacking force of Astartes see the Arbites as the only force present in an entire system who could challenge them and have to re-work their plans as a result.
...That's adorable.
And so very wrong. Was this Alpha Legion who were attacking? Because that's the only reason I can see the two things being tied together.
fact.
So, you're declaring me wrong, and then stating fact, despite not having read the book?
Victories of the Space Marines. Black Dawn by C.L. Werner.
"An artefact from the Great Crusade – a bolt pistol used by Roboute Guilliman himself – is unearthed on the planet Vulscus. However, the relic may not be all that it appears, and the Inquisiton send the vicious Warbringers Space Marines to retrieve it."
Miraclefish wrote:In the recent Victories of the Space Marines book, well, I won't spoil it, but an attacking force of Astartes see the Arbites as the only force present in an entire system who could challenge them and have to re-work their plans as a result.
...That's adorable.
And so very wrong. Was this Alpha Legion who were attacking? Because that's the only reason I can see the two things being tied together.
fact.
So, you're declaring me wrong, and then stating fact, despite not having read the book?
Victories of the Space Marines. Black Dawn by C.L. Werner.
"An artefact from the Great Crusade – a bolt pistol used by Roboute Guilliman himself – is unearthed on the planet Vulscus. However, the relic may not be all that it appears, and the Inquisiton send the vicious Warbringers Space Marines to retrieve it."
No, I'm saying that the idea of Space Marines being defeated by Arbites is adorable.
Except that there may be tens of thousands of Arbites and a few dozen Astartes. Arbites who have fortified strongholds all over the planet, have access to Rhino APCs, large caliber weapons and very capable body armour.
One Navy S.E.A.L would put down a civillian armed with a few rocks without breaking a sweat. Make that a hundred civillians and he's a dead man.
Though the preferred Arbites weapon is a shotgun, they have access to bolters. Their preferred specialist weapon is a grenade launcher. Both are more than capable of putting down Marines.
Miraclefish wrote:Except that there may be tens of thousands of Arbites and a few dozen Astartes. Arbites who have fortified strongholds all over the planet, have access to Rhino APCs, large caliber weapons and very capable body armour.
Why is it that the Imperial Guard seem to be the only imperial force to not have Rhinos?
Miraclefish wrote:Except that there may be tens of thousands of Arbites and a few dozen Astartes. Arbites who have fortified strongholds all over the planet, have access to Rhino APCs, large caliber weapons and very capable body armour.
And those "tens of thousands of Arbites" aren't going to be objecting to an Inquisitorial order to turn an artifact over to the Astartes.
Nor will those "tens of thousands of Arbites" be in a single place every single time to counter the few dozen Astartes.
And to say "very capable body armor" for Arbites is going to be stopping bolt rounds is kinda silly. It works both ways.
But it just leads me to believe it's a badly written story that makes no sense and is only in there because hey, they couldn't think of anything else to put in. Plus "The Inquisition did it" is as common as "The Warp did it".
halonachos wrote:
Why is it that the Imperial Guard seem to be the only imperial force to not have Rhinos?
Why do people think that the Imperial Guard need Rhinos?
Rhinos are lightly armored vehicles that deliver specialist troops into short range and melee combat.
The Chimera fills the role the Guard need filled: a heavily armored mobile firebase that works well with their infantry formations.
The Rhino or even a Razorback wouldn't work well in that role.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're easier to make I reckon.
Anyways, What's a Repressor? Is it lilke the SWAT APC with the battering ram on the front?
It's a Rhino variant that was originally designed to 'repress' riots on Imperial held worlds.
It had a turret mounted water cannon and a grenade launcher to dispense chemical/incapacitating grenades. The Arbites basically had the design yanked out from under them by the Sororitas during an instance where Sisters had pretty much let the world go to hell and back while the Arbites were trying to suppress riots.
The Sororitas 'offered' to crew a number of Repressors, and immediately pulled the water cannon and grenade launcher to replace them with a flamethrower and bolters.
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Miraclefish wrote:Kanluwen, please read the story...
Only if you realize that C.L. Werner is a terrible author.
The story is, from the extract I've read(no way am I buying the whole book or even $2.99 for his story alone) your pretty basic Goto-esque fare.
The Arbites being present shouldn't affect how a Space Marine Chapter plans an operation that has Inquisitorial authority.
Arbites, period, would not challenge Inquisitorial authority unless there's something bigger going on(doubtful)...or the author isn't too familiar with the idea of the Arbites.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're easier to make I reckon.
Anyways, What's a Repressor? Is it lilke the SWAT APC with the battering ram on the front?
It's a Rhino variant that was originally designed to 'repress' riots on Imperial held worlds.
It had a turret mounted water cannon and a grenade launcher to dispense chemical/incapacitating grenades. The Arbites basically had the design yanked out from under them by the Sororitas during an instance where Sisters had pretty much let the world go to hell and back while the Arbites were trying to suppress riots.
The Sororitas 'offered' to crew a number of Repressors, and immediately pulled the water cannon and grenade launcher to replace them with a flamethrower and bolters.
Kan, a post of yours is once again writing checks that the fluff cannot cash. (Unless this is from IA II, which I have not read.)
Moreoever, the fact that a story was written by C. L. Werner (who is not a bad author), that you don't like it, or that the information that it contains is contrary to a point you're making does not make it any less "canonical" (such as it is) than the stories you do like or agree with or are written by Aaron D-B.
Kan, a post of yours is once again writing checks that the fluff cannot cash. (Unless this is from IA II, which I have not read.)
That is, in fact, from IA2.
Do you want the full quote?
Moreoever, the fact that a story was written by C. L. Werner (who is not a bad author), that you don't like it, or that the information that it contains is contrary to a point you're making does not make it any less "canonical" (such as it is) than the stories you do like or agree with or are written by Aaron D-B.
The fact that the story somehow has Arbites as being the "biggest obstacle" to an Inquisition sponsored Astartes operation is what makes it 'less canonical' and is why I'm saying Werner should stick to Fantasy.
Manchu wrote:That's as may be but it is not in fact "less canonical." We have to take the good/plausible with the bad/ridiculous.
No we don't. We can discard the bad/ridiculous as "overexaggerated tales spun by Imperial citizenry during their drinking"..
There are three possibilities with GW's IP:
(1) There is no canon in any sense: no argument can be drawn from any source whatsoever. (GW's official "cop-out" stance.)
(2) Canon is a matter of each fan's taste: no objective argument can be drawn from any source.
(3) If there is any canon at all, then it is made up of everything not explicitly rejected (Heretical Tomes) or explicitly "retconned." This is the only option that allows for objective discussion of the 40k background.
Now, that's not to say we can't have both. The Wolf of Fenris story is a good example of something that I simultaneously accept as a CSM fan and reject as a SW fan, for example. This is of course possible because of option one above: GW itself says "there is no canon," meaning any source is as likely to be false as it is likely to be true (because it's made up of equal parts of myth, history, propaganda, and disinformation). Now if you really apply that ridiculous standard, even Space Marines could just be a legend. All these accounts in the codices and BL novels are just propaganda to whip up the masses, right? Okay, that's stupid. Yes, and so is saying "such-and-such does not comport with my opinion of the fluff and therefore it's just been made up by whoever (in-universe) reported it."
I figured it was pretty obvious when I say "X is a terrible author and not canon", my stance is "I refuse to consider this person's terrible writings as canon and would rather read a public bathroom stall".
Kan, a post of yours is once again writing checks that the fluff cannot cash. (Unless this is from IA II, which I have not read.)
That is, in fact, from IA2.
Do you want the full quote?
Moreoever, the fact that a story was written by C. L. Werner (who is not a bad author), that you don't like it, or that the information that it contains is contrary to a point you're making does not make it any less "canonical" (such as it is) than the stories you do like or agree with or are written by Aaron D-B.
The fact that the story somehow has Arbites as being the "biggest obstacle" to an Inquisition sponsored Astartes operation is what makes it 'less canonical' and is why I'm saying Werner should stick to Fantasy.
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?
Kan, as far as I can tell The Marines merely factored in the Arbites presence into their strategic planning. This is hardly wild and crazy Gotoism. It would be unrealistic for them to not factor in the Arbites. They factor in everything, that's their job.
Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?
On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?
Kanluwen wrote:my stance is "I refuse to consider this person's terrible writings as canon and would rather read a public bathroom stall".
Noted. It just means that having a meaningful conversation with you about this stuff is impossible since your own personal 40k universe is not really relevant. All I can really do is ask you "well, how much do you hate it?" Granted, sometimes I do want to know that.
Manchu wrote:That's as may be but it is not in fact "less canonical." We have to take the good/plausible with the bad/ridiculous.
No we don't. We can discard the bad/ridiculous as "overexaggerated tales spun by Imperial citizenry during their drinking"..
There are three possibilities with GW's IP:
(1) There is no canon in any sense: no argument can be drawn from any source whatsoever. (GW's official "cop-out" stance.)
(2) Canon is a matter of each fan's taste: no objective argument can be drawn from any source.
(3) If there is any canon at all, then it is made up of everything not explicitly rejected (Heretical Tomes) or explicitly "retconned." This is the only option that allows for objective discussion of the 40k background.
Now, that's not to say we can't have both. The Wolf of Fenris story is a good example of something that I simultaneously accept as a CSM fan and reject as a SW fan, for example. This is of course possible because of option one above: GW itself says "there is no canon," meaning any source is as likely to be false as it is likely to be true (because it's made up of equal parts of myth, history, propaganda, and disinformation). Now if you really apply that ridiculous standard, even Space Marines could just be a legend. All these accounts in the codices and BL novels are just propaganda to whip up the masses, right? Okay, that's stupid. Yes, and so is saying "such-and-such does not comport with my opinion of the fluff and therefore it's just been made up by whoever (in-universe) reported it."
"
Unfortunately Manchu, just like how Kan must acknowledge that indeed one time Space Marines noticed Arbites existed you must acknowledge the Wolf of Fenris incident as Canon. I believe its just "bad writing" or perhaps you could call it "poorly explained fluff". I'm sure there's some literary term for this I don't know, but basically you can have anything happen if you write a proper explanation for it. And I don't mean in a sci-fi techno-bable way, even just something simple like a character's emotional journey. Just like the "Draigo pwning Mortarion" incident the Wolf of Fenris fiasco would probably be a lot more acceptable to us if the had been the climax in an entire novel. The way they are presented now is pretty hard to swallow though.
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Kanluwen wrote:
Manchu wrote:Water cannon?
Kan, a post of yours is once again writing checks that the fluff cannot cash. (Unless this is from IA II, which I have not read.)
That is, in fact, from IA2.
Do you want the full quote?
I'll take a page number to read about it myself. I thought IA2 was just Space Marines.
Unfortunately Manchu, just like how Kan must acknowledge that indeed one time Space Marines noticed Arbites existed you must acknowledge the Wolf of Fenris incident as Canon.
Yeah, that was my point. As a SW fan, I say "no way, that's Chaos BS." But as a CSM fan, I say "no one can resist the Ruinous Powers!"
In the end, when the question is asked "have any SW ever defected to Chaos?" I have to answer, yes, in the Wolf of Fenris story in the CSM. I can't just claim it's some crap written by a crappy author and therefore never happened. Ironically, and to his credit, Kanluwen has been a vociferous opponent of this being done to Mat Ward but C. L. Werner gets no love? Admittedly, the hate for Mat Ward is much less informed and far, far more annoying.
Unfortunately Manchu, just like how Kan must acknowledge that indeed one time Space Marines noticed Arbites existed you must acknowledge the Wolf of Fenris incident as Canon.
Yeah, that was my point. As a SW fan, I say "no way, that's Chaos BS." But as a CSM fan, I say "no one can resist the Ruinous Powers!"
In the end, when the question is asked "have any SW ever defected to Chaos?" I have to answer, yes, in the Wolf of Fenris story in the CSM. I can't just claim it's some crap written by a crappy author and therefore never happened. Ironically, and to his credit, Kanluwen has been a vociferous opponent of this being done to Mat Ward but C. L. Werner gets no love? Admittedly, the hate for Mat Ward is much less informed and far, far more annoying.
If it were simply a case of "Well, the Warbringers Chapter considered them in their planning stage and realized they'd be a non-issue since they could pull out the whole Inquisitorial Writ and supercede the Arbites"--then I'd be game and acknowledge it.
From the way Miraclefish is making it out to be--the Warbringers seriously considered killing and fighting Arbites to retrieve an artifact for an Inquisitor(which makes no sense to happen anyways. The Inquisition has the Red Hunters Chapter at its beck and call for things like this, why wouldn't he just request them to go and do it?).
Which reminds me: Arbites presences on a planet depend upon the importance of the planet and the make-up of the planet. A feudal backwater would have a few hundred, at best--while somewhere like Vraks and Taros would have had tens of thousands of Arbites with fortified strongholds, etc.
That's what makes it arguably a situation where "it never happened" in my opinion.
In all fairness, I also don't count some of the earlier Gaunt's Ghosts novels anymore as really being 'canon'--and I love Dan Abnett. The only things I really 'count' from them are general things that haven't changed over the years--the majority of The Founding cycle are similar to Space Marine or the Inquisition Wars in my view.
I think miraclefish's response would be to read the book. Failing that, at least hear him out before discounting the book as a giant piece of non-canonical crap.
IMO there's nothing in The Founding that needs to be considered non-canon. Fluff doesn't have an expiry date. It's Canon until retconed.
@Kan: You've said Arbites have had landspeeders and sentinels forever. Where are you getting that info? (I can't find a copy of Citadel Journal 29.)
I didn't ever have a copy of Citadel Journal 29. I'm remembering a fluff piece from Andy Chambers around 2002 where it mentioned they're "things they can get a hold of, depending on the locality. Some Arbites on heavier industrialized worlds will have them, while Arbites on more feudal worlds will have no real need for anything that heavy".
Land Speeders though should be obvious. Eisenhorn was the first place to make mention of that one, with Fischig having an Arbites Land Speeder at his disposal(and it was mentioned as one of several).
@KC: Paying to read a book with no authors I like(aside from Sarah Cawkwell, whose short story I've read while I was in Borders one day waiting on a friend) isn't going to happen.
And I'm vehemently against piracy of any kind--so it's a nogo situation. I've heard him out. But when the continual response is "Read the book"--I don't think there's much more to be said/heard don't you?
As for "there's nothing in the Founding that needs to be considered non-canon", you're right. There's no real reason for it to be considered non-canon except for it doesn't 'mesh' with the way the fluff's been. Things like Storm Bolters on tripods as defensive weapons for a trench line, or Heavy Stubbers 'pulping' armored Guardsmen...yeah.
@Kan: You've said Arbites have had landspeeders and sentinels forever. Where are you getting that info? (I can't find a copy of Citadel Journal 29.)
I didn't ever have a copy of Citadel Journal 29. I'm remembering a fluff piece from Andy Chambers around 2002 where it mentioned they're "things they can get a hold of, depending on the locality. Some Arbites on heavier industrialized worlds will have them, while Arbites on more feudal worlds will have no real need for anything that heavy".
Land Speeders though should be obvious. Eisenhorn was the first place to make mention of that one, with Fischig having an Arbites Land Speeder at his disposal(and it was mentioned as one of several).
@KC: Paying to read a book with no authors I like(aside from Sarah Cawkwell, whose short story I've read while I was in Borders one day waiting on a friend) isn't going to happen.
And I'm vehemently against piracy of any kind--so it's a nogo situation. I've heard him out. But when the continual response is "Read the book"--I don't think there's much more to be said/heard don't you?
As for "there's nothing in the Founding that needs to be considered non-canon", you're right. There's no real reason for it to be considered non-canon except for it doesn't 'mesh' with the way the fluff's been. Things like Storm Bolters on tripods as defensive weapons for a trench line, or Heavy Stubbers 'pulping' armored Guardsmen...yeah.
Then ask questions on specific points of contention.
As for The Founding, really? That's what you going with? Heavy Stubbers will very much pulp a Guardsmen. The fact that a person somewhere in an empire of trillions spanning 10,000 years put a stormbolter on a tripod is more than reasonable. Just because it's not an option in your army list doesn't mean it's a fluff error.
Heavy Stubbers will "very much pulp a Guardsman"...wearing the kind of kit that you see on standard Guardsmen.
They won't, however, pulp carapace armored Grenadiers like the Volpone or Urdeshi.
I said the storm bolter thing because the statement surrounding it in the first book? It says that the Storm Bolter is on a tripod "due to the immense recoil, which no regular human can use".
When the strength of a weapon equals the toughness of the victim the wounds are merely "horrific". When it exceds it, you are getting into pulping and even vaporizing territory.
Just a bolter of Astartes pattern is unusable by humans. Generally, storm-bolters are unweildy even of the proper make. Tri-pod sounds like a good idea to me.
Anyways, we are now debating tedious minutia. rather get back to the OT.
Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?
On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?
That's the problem.
Fine, fine, I didn't want to post a description, but here we go:
Spoiler:
The holy relic, Roboute Guilleman's Bolt Pistol, iit turns out, isn't so holy... it's a weapon once wielded by the arch-traitor Horus Lupercal when he claimed the world during the Great Crusade. The Ordo Hereticus know this, they request assistance to retrieve it. They cannot afford for anyone else to learn the true nature of this artefact, so they decide, on reflection, to strike at the planet and take the bolt pistol. The lives of a few thousand Imperial citizens are nothing compared to the billions of cultists and worse who would be drawn to claim this unholiest of relics.
It's a small system on the fringes with only a PDF garrison and ground-to-space defences. The Astartes figure there are two threats to their stealth operation on the planet: the formidable laser defense batteries and the large, well trained, Rhino-equipped Arbites garrison.
What part of this is so unbelievable? Oh, yeah, you'd need to read the book before judging it...
Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?
On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?
That's the problem.
Maybe the 'holy relic' isn't so holy?
It still isn't in the league of the Arbites to judge such things. AFAIK their only role is to make sure the imperial law is obeyed. They don't even care about LOCAL laws. So, if the Inquisition says jump, loyal arbites do not ask "how high?" but "Can we land afterwards?"
Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?
On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?
That's the problem.
Maybe the 'holy relic' isn't so holy?
It still isn't in the league of the Arbites to judge such things. AFAIK their only role is to make sure the imperial law is obeyed. They don't even care about LOCAL laws. So, if the Inquisition says jump, loyal arbites do not ask "how high?" but "Can we land afterwards?"
The Inquisition do have authority - if they choose to reveal themselves. But knowledge is their most treasured possession and weapon. If they do not declare themselves, the Arbites would react in the only way they can...
I tend to think Arbites do have a place in a Ordo Hereticus/Sisters of Battle Codex. While the Ordo Hereticus and Sisters do not have direct control of the Adeptus Arbites, more than any other Ordo, they make extensive use of the Adeptus Arbites. I think there inclusion should be in place of storm troopers or any other non-hereticus imperial troops. The Adeptus Arbites are trained in the Schola Progenita alongside Stormtroopers and are suppose to be as capable of fighting.
There fluff describes them as not just see to imperial law on planets, but upon invasion organizing the defenses of the planet and in case of the planetary governments fall to outside forces they see to the organizing of underground resistancesl; they also provide the muscle for the Imperiums civillian penal system, which the Ordo Hereticus takes advantage of in finding redemptive souls in the different penitent units. I don't see them marching off to battle, I think if the SoB called for their aid, they would provide it. I don't think they should have their own codex, because of how the scope of 40k now eclipses them, I think a fluff spirited pressence in the SoB book is more than warranted. Plus, if SoB are going to play that dominatrix thing someone has to play whipping boy.
Kanluwen wrote:I didn't ever have a copy of Citadel Journal 29. I'm remembering a fluff piece from Andy Chambers around 2002 where it mentioned they're "things they can get a hold of, depending on the locality. Some Arbites on heavier industrialized worlds will have them, while Arbites on more feudal worlds will have no real need for anything that heavy".
Land Speeders though should be obvious. Eisenhorn was the first place to make mention of that one, with Fischig having an Arbites Land Speeder at his disposal(and it was mentioned as one of several).
I have Citadel Journal 29... there is no mention of sentinels... but at different points Arbites have been portrayed with landspeeders.
The established aspects of the Adeptus Arbites from Citadel Journal... they have patrol teams with special shotguns and special weapon... they have Judges and Marshals as HQs... they have bolter equipped combat teams... they have execution teams with heavy weapons... they have shock teams with the riot gear... a bike team... they have access to both Chimeras and Rhinos.... they're are several units mentioned but given no rules: telepathic interegators, snipers, and an extensive medical corps.
From other sources they have landspeeders and the repressor. They have also been mentioned as having on one very very very rare instance access to a single Leman Russ.
Additionally, Adeptus Arbites can take command of planetary defense forces and Enforcer teams. The enforcer teams are the local police and are where the Mastiffs and heavy stubbers come from... they're generally as well equipped, but not neccessarily as thoroughly indoctrinated or trained... and in some ways have lesser versions of Arbite equipment. For example Adeptus Arbite riot teams have power mauls and suppression shield... Enforcers have shock mauls and riot shields.
Anything else has just been made up at different points by people trying to justify their own Arbite codex and some "cool" unique unit to distingguish them.
Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?
On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?
That's the problem.
Maybe the 'holy relic' isn't so holy?
It still isn't in the league of the Arbites to judge such things. AFAIK their only role is to make sure the imperial law is obeyed. They don't even care about LOCAL laws. So, if the Inquisition says jump, loyal arbites do not ask "how high?" but "Can we land afterwards?"
The Inquisition do have authority - if they choose to reveal themselves. But knowledge is their most treasured possession and weapon. If they do not declare themselves, the Arbites would react in the only way they can...
Ok I don't know the story but... If the inquisitor sent Space Marines to retrieve a holy relic without saying anything to the arbites, then arbites may indeed be questioning why the astartes are coming in arms to do that... But in that case the attitude of the Inquisitor is much more questionable and may indeed garner some attention from fellow inquisitors... I have no doubt that many of the inquisitors opposing this guy would see this as a good way to put his actions in bad light and maybe even get him under investigation...
Kanluwen wrote:I didn't ever have a copy of Citadel Journal 29. I'm remembering a fluff piece from Andy Chambers around 2002 where it mentioned they're "things they can get a hold of, depending on the locality. Some Arbites on heavier industrialized worlds will have them, while Arbites on more feudal worlds will have no real need for anything that heavy".
Land Speeders though should be obvious. Eisenhorn was the first place to make mention of that one, with Fischig having an Arbites Land Speeder at his disposal(and it was mentioned as one of several).
I have Citadel Journal 29... there is no mention of sentinels... but at different points Arbites have been portrayed with landspeeders.
Then I must be getting wires crossed remembering a fandex and Andy Chambers talking about things they'd wanted to do for the Arbites.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Miraclefish wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?
On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?
That's the problem.
Fine, fine, I didn't want to post a description, but here we go:
Spoiler:
The holy relic, Roboute Guilleman's Bolt Pistol, iit turns out, isn't so holy... it's a weapon once wielded by the arch-traitor Horus Lupercal when he claimed the world during the Great Crusade. The Ordo Hereticus know this, they request assistance to retrieve it. They cannot afford for anyone else to learn the true nature of this artefact, so they decide, on reflection, to strike at the planet and take the bolt pistol. The lives of a few thousand Imperial citizens are nothing compared to the billions of cultists and worse who would be drawn to claim this unholiest of relics.
It's a small system on the fringes with only a PDF garrison and ground-to-space defences. The Astartes figure there are two threats to their stealth operation on the planet: the formidable laser defense batteries and the large, well trained, Rhino-equipped Arbites garrison.
What part of this is so unbelievable? Oh, yeah, you'd need to read the book before judging it...
Arbites can be a threat to Astartes. That's not in dispute. But with the mention of "two threats to their stealth operation on the planet" and one being the defense batteries and the other being the Arbites garrison--it makes me think someone doesn't know the definition of "stealth".
Could it be that the issue is: "if we are not able to get in covertly, here are the two issues that will be the most dangerous?"
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Kanluwen: The BOLS fandex and the one Huckleberry wrote in the long, long ago both include Sentinels. I don't think either includes Landspeeders.
Manchu wrote:Could it be that the issue is: "if we are not able to get in covertly, here are the two issues that will be the most dangerous?"
That makes perfect sense of course, but it's not how the thinking has been stated.
I still want to know why the heck it's the Warbringers Chapter(which I don't think I have anything on. Two closest matches I can find are "Warmongers" and "Emperor's Warbringers") and not the Red Hunters(who have incredibly close ties to the Inquisition, to the point where they incorporate the Inquisitorial sigil in their Chapter livery). That's puzzling to me.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition. In fact most chapters have aided the Inquisition at some point.
"Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition"--but the Red Hunters are said to have an incredibly close tie to the Inquisition, to the point where they provide bodyguards for Inquisitors and invasion forces when the Inquisition needs them.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition. In fact most chapters have aided the Inquisition at some point.
"Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition"--but the Red Hunters are said to have an incredibly close tie to the Inquisition, to the point where they provide bodyguards for Inquisitors and invasion forces when the Inquisition needs them.
Still doesn't make much sense... If nobody know about the relic, just send your henchmen with the inquisition sigil to retrieve it. If it's already in the hands of heretics the matter is different but that doesn't seem the scenario described...
The whole "flip out your badge" mentality is kind of ambivalent. On the one hand, Inquisitors are said to be able to command every single resource of the Imperium in pursuit of their goals. On the other hand, it's said that almost no one in the Imperium has eve heard of the Inquisition. It makes me wonder whether Arbites who had never worked with the Inquisition would likely respond "very good, citizen, you may take the holy relic at your convenience." And, while Space Marines are certainly imposing, they're hardly perceived throughout the Imperium as infallible and immune to corruption. Some Astartes showing up all of the sudden to take the most important object on your planet would hardly be met with cooperation. It seems that the point of the story is that Astartes attacking Imperial citizens is less scandalous than finding out that this relic purportedly owned by the great Guilliman is actually a dangerous relic of Horus. That sounds like a pretty authentic point of GrimDark to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think we should also remember that Astartes are subject to the Lex Imperialis like any other citizens and it is the Lex itself that makes exceptions (such as aptus-non tithe grades for Chapter Worlds and Forge Worlds).
I would say Imperials are aware of The Inquisition's existance though. Just saying The Inquisition in a crowded room makes children cry and old ladies faint.
This is not what the codices and novels say, however . . .
I guess in some places, knowledge of the Inquisition is common place. Like in the Formosa (sub?) sector, which is ruled by Coteaz. But the rest of their fluff makes them seem completely unknown to all but the higher rungs of authority. My guess would be that means planetary governors and up.
Manchu wrote:How are they recognized? I'm not trying to call you out, it's just been a right long while since I read the Eisenhorn books.
That's kind of the thing.
Nobody really can "recognize" the Inquisition--unless they want to be recognized. That's what makes them the whole "avenging shadow, purging the Imperium of its faults" bit.
Kanluwen wrote:Then I must be getting wires crossed remembering a fandex and Andy Chambers talking about things they'd wanted to do for the Arbites.
That was written by Tim Huckleberry... the Citadel Journal issue 29 was all that Andy Chambers wrote on them for 40k. Mr. Huckleberry in my opinion did the Arbites a great disservice. He wrote a list that largely ignored the fluff and is responsible for alot of the confussion about the Adeptus Arbites. He treated the Adeptus Arbites as local police... thats what "Enforcers" are... and so his list used a lot of light IG weapons and water cannons, suppressing and debilitating weapons. His list was never official, his fluff was never official; he's just given a lot of credit because at the time he was one of the few people at GW who cared enought about the Arbites, but he was only a play tester and Citadel Journal contributer and not a designer. So his personal fandexes were some how elevated to some intermediate level of acceptability.
Adeptus Arbites are really more heavy handed part FBI part secret police. No doubt they'd be present in taking charge of enforcers in a major incident, but a paramilitary force that is described as being able to selectively engage and take out planetary defence forces that have gone rogue wouldn't bother with water cannons. Even if they did have water cannons, who would want to bring that to fight off tyranid hordes. Does the Imperium's paramilitant authoritarian hand that enforces the laws and dictates of the High Lords of Terra and the Emperor on civilized worlds in this grim dark future sound like the type that would bring waterguns to a battle?
"Batman Begins".
The scene at the dockyard, where he busts up the drug import. The goons are talking about "some freak in a cape" and being braggarts about what they'd do to him if they ever saw him--but when confronted with it, they're whimpering little kids.
IIRC when all hell breaks loose in that one city because like 2 dozen alpha psykers escape, Eisenhorn busts into a room police style and yells "Inquisition!!!" civilians actually cry and faint and stuff. It's been a long time since I read it too but I seem to recall that happening a couple times. He does use his rosarius thing like a cop uses a badge too.
Basically, I think the Imperial Inquisition is as well known (and same rep) as the Spanish Inquisition was in Spain.
Manchu wrote:I guess my concern is that anyone could pull out a piece of metal in the shape of an "I" and claim to be Inquisitor von Mustobey.
I don't remember exactly, but those "I" contain something that's proof of their inquisitorial office... something like a piece of the Emperors armor... or the the equivalent of a smartcard.
Kanluwen wrote:Then I must be getting wires crossed remembering a fandex and Andy Chambers talking about things they'd wanted to do for the Arbites.
That was written by Tim Huckleberry... the Citadel Journal issue 29 was all that Andy Chambers wrote on them for 40k. Mr. Huckleberry in my opinion did the Arbites a great disservice. He wrote a list that largely ignored the fluff and is responsible for alot of the confussion about the Adeptus Arbites. He treated the Adeptus Arbites as local police... thats what "Enforcers" are... and so his list used a lot of light IG weapons and water cannons, suppressing and debilitating weapons. His list was never official, his fluff was never official; he's just given a lot of credit because at the time he was one of the few people at GW who cared enought about the Arbites, but he was only a play tester and Citadel Journal contributer and not a designer. So his personal fandexes were some how elevated to some intermediate level of acceptability.
I still say that Sentinels for them isn't too unbelievable. Sentinels are supposedly pretty common throughout the Imperium and wouldn't make a bad weapons platform.
But after seeing the name Huckleberry it shook some wires loose. I remembered it from one of the articles he did for Black Gobbo and showed different little 'background forces' on the tabletop via doctrines for the Guard. He did one for Blood Pact, Tech-Guard, Volpones, Genestealer Cult, and Arbites.
Adeptus Arbites are really more heavy handed part FBI part secret police. No doubt they'd be present in taking charge of enforcers in a major incident, but a paramilitary force that is described as being able to selectively engage and take out planetary defence forces that have gone rogue wouldn't bother with water cannons. Even if they did have water cannons, who would want to bring that to fight off tyranid hordes. Does the Imperium's paramilitant authoritarian hand that enforces the laws and dictates of the High Lords of Terra and the Emperor on civilized worlds in this grim dark future sound like the type that would bring waterguns to a battle?
That depends. Are we fighting firemonsters?
But yeah. I think it'd be a mistake if we saw the return of the Water Cannon Repressor.
I think the arbites should be in there as much as the SoB are. The Arbites have the job of putting down riots or defeating uprisings, these will make up most of an ordo hereticus inquisitors battles. SoB are wasted when your fighting hordes of cultists or civilians.
While SoB are used they are still the force of the ecclesiarchy rather than the inquisition and so are harder for the inquisition to command. The arbites are much more common and will listen to an Inquisitor without question. They have a faster response time as they are already present on most planets. They fulfil the ordo hereticus needs perfectly in most situations.
While I want SoB to stay I want arbites to have as much of a place. Imo you should be able to take a force of either.
I think Arbites also serve a fluff appropriate way to give SoB a second troop choice without inventing a new unit that would effectively serve the same purpose. Who knows, GW may just say build them using the "Henchmen" unit entry.
Kanluwen wrote:I still say that Sentinels for them isn't too unbelievable. Sentinels are supposedly pretty common throughout the Imperium and wouldn't make a bad weapons platform.
But after seeing the name Huckleberry it shook some wires loose. I remembered it from one of the articles he did for Black Gobbo and showed different little 'background forces' on the tabletop via doctrines for the Guard. He did one for Blood Pact, Tech-Guard, Volpones, Genestealer Cult, and Arbites.
I agree sorta, I think a Sentinel like vehicle is appropriate. There just isn't anything really established. So going off their nature, I'd tend to think a Arbite "sentinel" would be geared more towards its urban use. At the time there was only the lighter version of the sentinel, but I think the Arbites would maybe only use the heavier enclosed version or something in that vein, since they wouldn't tend to need them as scouts.
Manchu wrote:This is not what the codices and novels say, however . . .
Yes it is. Knowing OF the Inquisition is not the same as knowing ABOUT them.
I know OF a large number of SOCOM units in that I know they exist and I know their names as they are given to the public. I don't know much ABOUT them, as they're rather secretive (the Inquisition more of course, but this is as good an example as I can get) and hide the details of their functions from the public eye.
Manchu wrote:I guess my concern is that anyone could pull out a piece of metal in the shape of an "I" and claim to be Inquisitor von Mustobey.
It's got some weird holographic projection thing that's all fancy. Still your point remains, somebody with the right stuff could make a holographic projection thingamabob but I guess my response would be don't we have the same problem in real life? If a cop flashed his badge at me I would say "well, I guess he's a cop" because I don't really know what a police badge looks like. Its probably even a bigger problem in America where you guys don't even have a nationalized police force excluding FBI. I don't doubt there are people going around masquerading as Inquisitors. In one of the DH books one of the Inquisitor characters isn't even a real Inquisitor she's just a really rich person.
As a sidenote: I was pleasantly surprised to go and get the mail and there was...a package from GW.
The Arbites Enforcer Patrol Team has arrived, and there's apparently a really awesome variant Judge included. Wears a stormcoat, has the full armour on, etc.
Kanluwen wrote:As a sidenote: I was pleasantly surprised to go and get the mail and there was...a package from GW.
The Arbites Enforcer Patrol Team has arrived, and there's apparently a really awesome variant Judge included. Wears a stormcoat, has the full armour on, etc.
Kanluwen wrote:As a sidenote: I was pleasantly surprised to go and get the mail and there was...a package from GW.
The Arbites Enforcer Patrol Team has arrived, and there's apparently a really awesome variant Judge included. Wears a stormcoat, has the full armour on, etc.
Sweet. Got a cyber-dog?
Indeed. He's part of the box, no matter what, apparently.
aka_mythos wrote:... something like a piece of the Emperors armor... or the the equivalent of a smartcard.
Hilarious!
In DH, one of the main points is that the Acolytes will get nowhere by running around screaming "Inquisition! Freeze, punks!" I doubt an acolyte could pawn off some violation of the Lex Imperialias by saying "the Inquisitor made me do it." No Arbitrator would leave it at that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:. . . there's apparently a really awesome variant Judge included. Wears a stormcoat, has the full armour on, etc.
He's got various weapon options, I'm thinking I'll go with bolt pistol in one hand and grenade in the other though. Hard to photograph metal well though.
aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.
I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.
But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.
aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.
I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.
But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.
aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.
I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.
But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.
So would you support a separate Codex: Arbites?
No. But I won't support a Mechanicus or Crimson Fists codex by that same logic.
If people really want them: there should be campaign rules sets that include such things. Move away from this perception that codices are just for tournament gamers.
Arbites don't stand a chance against Mechanicum in terms of what the people want -- even I voted for Mechanicum in that thread.
What's more important here? Getting Arbites models or Arbites rules? I think that's a simple question. In fact, one could also say, would you rather have new rules for Sisters or new models. Maybe that's a less simple question for some people. For me, the answer is always models. Rules take nothing like the time and effort GW spends to get a great concept reduced to a sculpt and in production. If someone said, "okay here are the new Sisters models but you'll have to wait another year for the rules" I would have stopped listening at "but."
With decent models, I'd be more than happy to try these counts-as ideas. Frankly, I'd be motivated to write my own fandex or even use BOLS's. (Of course, without rules that require options, any new Arbites models might be as static and unimpressive as the current ones.)
But I reckon that if Arbites are going to get any models at all, they've got to have rules in a dex. Nothing is deader than GW's specialist lines. The very best we could hope for is a boardgame and I'd also give that a 0% chance. Codex it must must must be. And the only possible codex these guys make any sense in is a Sisters book, for all the reasons given above.
I don't think that including Arbites could possibly water down Sisters fluff. It would, however, limit the number of model kits with power-armored ladies. Fine by me. The last thing that book needs to have is SoB in every single choice in every single slot.
Manchu wrote:Arbites don't stand a chance against Mechanicum in terms of what the people want -- even I voted for Mechanicum in that thread.
What's more important here? Getting Arbites models or Arbites rules? I think that's a simple question. In fact, one could also say, would you rather have new rules for Sisters or new models. Maybe that's a less simple question for some people. For me, the answer is always models. Rules take nothing like the time and effort GW spends to get a great concept reduced to a sculpt and in production. If someone said, "okay here are the new Sisters models but you'll have to wait another year for the rules" I would have stopped listening at "but."
With decent models, I'd be more than happy to try these counts-as ideas. Frankly, I'd be motivated to write my own fandex or even use BOLS's. (Of course, without rules that require options, any new Arbites models might be as static and unimpressive as the current ones.)
But I reckon that if Arbites are going to get any models at all, they've got to have rules in a dex. Nothing is deader than GW's specialist lines. The very best we could hope for is a boardgame and I'd also give that a 0% chance. Codex it must must must be. And the only possible codex these guys make any sense in is a Sisters book, for all the reasons given above.
I don't think that including Arbites could possibly water down Sisters fluff. It would, however, limit the number of model kits with power-armored ladies. Fine by me. The last thing that book needs to have is SoB in every single choice in every single slot.
Hmmm, I'm not sure what's more important, the paper or the plastic. It's true models are important to really establish an army. A ruleset without models will soon wither away. However, most of us have declared the background to be very important to our enjoyment of 40K too. For example Kan's actually got some models but he can't really use them. It's the rules and background that get the 'ole imagination churning. Either way Arbites need both!
Wait you don't want an SoB unit for every FOC slot in the SoB codex? But it's their codex....
Manchu wrote:
But I reckon that if Arbites are going to get any models at all, they've got to have rules in a dex. Nothing is deader than GW's specialist lines. The very best we could hope for is a boardgame and I'd also give that a 0% chance. Codex it must must must be. And the only possible codex these guys make any sense in is a Sisters book, for all the reasons given above.
You're leaving out Forge World. Arbites seem like something we'll see from them at some point when they finally get to do their Cult army book.
Manchu wrote:
But I reckon that if Arbites are going to get any models at all, they've got to have rules in a dex. Nothing is deader than GW's specialist lines. The very best we could hope for is a boardgame and I'd also give that a 0% chance. Codex it must must must be. And the only possible codex these guys make any sense in is a Sisters book, for all the reasons given above.
You're leaving out Forge World. Arbites seem like something we'll see from them at some point when they finally get to do their Cult army book.
And possibly other controversial 3rd party model makers...
Okay first: Yes, I also want both rules and models for Sisters. I'm not saying rules aren't important. But converting Guardsmen would not be very satisfying -- at least until I get much, much better at converting or just learn to do my own GS sculpting and model production. But, as so many of you have redundantly pointed out, there are "rules" for Arbites currently in C:WH. And there are also other ways to proxy their stuff or, among friends, to write/use a fandex. As such, Kanluwen can certainly use his new models in games.
Second, the Arbites already have fluff. Undoubtedly, a whole codex devoted to them would really sharpen and expand that fluff. But it's not like being part of another codex wouldn't also do that -- especially when the alternative is to be so neglected that people who otherwise know a lot about 40k think Arbites are just cops.
I've never proposed that Arbites should have their own book. At most, I think they could use having an option to build all Arbites armies, even if they aren't actually competitive.
Now, on to your other question: SoB as every choice? No, that's no good. That's like having a Femarine dex. for example, do I want to see Sororitas on bikes? No way! That's totally out of character for them -- it's never happened at all in any fluff source as far as I know. But I would like to see bikes in the book if Arbites are riding them. If every single choice in the book is just another lady in power armor (looking at you, Dominions) we'll end up with a pretty boring book. I'm guessing this is where the weird backpacks Interceptor Squads came from, by the way. That's not something I'd like to see happen to Sororitas. They are not an organization meant to be ready for every possible combat situation. They're also not some extremely rare group but closer to the everyday fabric of grimdark life than any other faction. To represent the Imperium at large, especially its inescapable religiousity, they need to be mixed in with other Imperial units -- penitent engines, arco flagellants, priests . . . and, I really hope, Arbites.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:You're leaving out Forge World. Arbites seem like something we'll see from them at some point when they finally get to do their Cult army book.
Is this something they've actually talked about?
I really, really, really love the idea of a Space Hulk-like Genestealer Cult v. Arbites game. But I'd still rather have both options available in 40k somehow.
Manchu wrote:
They are not an organization meant to be ready for every possible combat situation.
I hearby summon The Melissia!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dissapointed by lack of Melissia rebuttal. Must be the new avatar. Anyways, Background-wise there's no reason for Arbites to be in a SoB 'dex. In fact, sometimes they may be the ones policing an The Ecclesiarchy when it steps over the line. But I'll take Arbites in there anyway because its better than nothing.
Kanluwen wrote:You're leaving out Forge World. Arbites seem like something we'll see from them at some point when they finally get to do their Cult army book.
Is this something they've actually talked about?
I really, really, really love the idea of a Space Hulk-like Genestealer Cult v. Arbites game. But I'd still rather have both options available in 40k somehow.
I don't think they were going to do a "Genestealer Cult v. Arbites game" but supposedly it was going to be part of the follow-up to "Raid on Kastorel-Novem" which was sidelined in favor of doing the Badab War.
Civilian rabble starting up all kinds of shenanigans and Arbites as part of the make-up of the Inquisition/Elysian forces present from what I recall of them talking about.
Where I can see Arbites coming up though? I've "heard from a friend" who works at Forge World that they've batted about ideas for a "Battle of Cadia" book, detailing the war on the ground during the 13th Black Crusade.
Manchu wrote:
They are not an organization meant to be ready for every possible combat situation.
I hearby summon The Melissia!
Meh. They aren't. But only because GW's current incarnation of them is incompetently written with poor rules and low amounts of choices. Yes, I know that's what third edition was. Doesn't change anything because we STILL have to use that codex to play these days.
@KC, M: There's no need for them to be more like SM by having a power-armored unit for every occasion. Having at least one or two Sisters choices for each FOC slot is perfectly fine. Sisters on bikes or in land speeders or walking around in Dreadknight-like exosuits doesn't really suit. I used to be very anti-freaks when it came to wishlisting Sisters but now I see that this is one aspect where they have a significant edge over the humdrum, everything's pretty well the same SM lines. As M has often says, one of the things that makes Sisters cool is that they are just regular humans. I like to extrapolate that out to the idea that, as I said, they are a more widespread aspect of life in the late 41st millennium than any other faction and that the rest of their book should incorporate this distinction as vibrantly as possible (while they, not the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition, retain the spotlight, of course).
@Kan: That Cadian release doesn't seem very fertile for Arbites, TBH. Every IA release is about a "war on the ground" somewhere and many of those places have been Imperial worlds that would have had an Arbites presence. I'm not sure that it being Cadia would increase that possibility but perhaps you can enlighten me.
Manchu wrote:@KC, M: There's no need for them to be more like SM by having a power-armored unit for every occasion. Having at least one or two Sisters choices for each FOC slot is perfectly fine. Sisters on bikes or in land speeders or walking around in Dreadknight-like exosuits doesn't really suit. I used to be very anti-freaks when it came to wishlisting Sisters but now I see that this is one aspect where they have a significant edge over the humdrum, everything's pretty well the same SM lines. As M has often says, one of the things that makes Sisters cool is that they are just regular humans. I like to extrapolate that out to the idea that, as I said, they are a more widespread aspect of life in the late 41st millennium than any other faction and that the rest of their book should incorporate this distinction as vibrantly as possible (while they, not the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition, retain the spotlight, of course).
Ehhhh. They're not really that widespread of a thing by all accounts though.
They're more common than Marines, but still not that common. Most citizenry would know about the Sisters through interacting with organizations like the Order Hospitalier, don't you think?
@Kan: That Cadian release doesn't seem very fertile for Arbites, TBH. Every IA release is about a "war on the ground" somewhere and many of those places have been Imperial worlds that would have had an Arbites presence. I'm not sure that it being Cadia would increase that possibility but perhaps you can enlighten me.
Most of the IA books have been about ground wars once things have already broken down.
Part of what makes a Cadian campaign book so much more likely is how suddenly the 13th Black Crusade happened. The Arbites and Cadian Shock were on the ground from the start. In the Taros campaign book, which might have worked for it, the Arbites were definitely present--but they were killed off by the slave labor after the First Taros Intervention. Anphelion had no Arbites presence because it was a 'secret Mechanicus' facility.
Vraks seemingly had no Arbites presence or they were butchered 'off-screen', with the same thing happening in IA9+10.
Fine, I'll defend them a bit. They're heavy infantry with access to armour. They should be able to handle just about any battlefield situation except a long range artillery duel but they're hardly the only faction with that limitation.
Rules-wise they already do have something for every slot. Normal Sisters, Flying Sisters, Sisters-with-bigger-guns than the other sisters etc. Don't see the need to get rid of any of those. I know what you mean about them becoming like Space Marines where it's really just all Space Marines all the time but that's what some people want: Fem-Marines.
Kanluwen wrote:Ehhhh. They're not really that widespread of a thing by all accounts though.
They're more common than Marines, but still not that common. Most citizenry would know about the Sisters through interacting with organizations like the Order Hospitalier, don't you think?
We don't know from C:WH. DH makes them see far more common. Let's say that something like .000000001% of the Imperial citizenry are ever on the same planet as a Space Marine. I would say that the equivalent percentage relative to Sisters is something like .001%. I'm just throwing arbitrary numbers around here, of course, but you can see that even if only tiny percentages of the citizenry are likely to have anything to do with either group, they are far far far far far far more likely to come across Sisters than Space Marines.
. . . no Arbites presence or they were butchered 'off-screen', with the same thing happening in IA9+10.
I think this is likely to be the case in the Cadian book, if/when it comes around.
. . . no Arbites presence or they were butchered 'off-screen', with the same thing happening in IA9+10.
I think this is likely to be the case in the Cadian book, if/when it comes around.
Considering the 13th Black Crusade book from Black Library shortly after the campaign makes allusions to the Arbites playing a relatively important role in maintaining the overall security of the Cadian Kasrs, I'd say they're likely to be in it.
Manchu wrote:@KC, M: There's no need for them to be more like SM by having a power-armored unit for every occasion. Having at least one or two Sisters choices for each FOC slot is perfectly fine.
No, that's boring.
A codex with thirty different Sisters of Battle units including special characters would be ideal. A wide variety, showing the variety within the Imperial Cult itself.
A codex with thirty different Sisters of Battle units including special characters would be ideal. A wide variety, showing the variety within the Imperial Cult itself.
Melissia wrote:A codex with thirty different Sisters of Battle units including special characters would be ideal.
Melissia wrote:A codex with thirty different Sisters of Battle units.
Melissia wrote:thirty different Sisters of Battle units.
Melissia wrote:thirty
No, really? We get it, you like them and the background... But, thirty? Either you're joking or I don't know what... There are different orders, and nuances and whatever... But for codex purposes? I doubt even in a REAL army there are that many ACTUAL differences in combat units. After all the units in the codex just represent that... Not the complexities of each order, army, platoon, whatever, just their average statistics and combat use...
Also, I'd brace myself... With a new codex you could end up with something so different from the SoB you know and love that you'd regret ever wanting something different...
I quite mean thirty in a completely serious fashion. In fact, my own fan-made codex aimed for that number, although that also includes one Ecclesiarchy unit per FoC slot. Given six special characters, this is quite easily done. For example:
Imperial Guard: Well over 30 units, not including special characters.
Space Marines: Over thirty units, not including special characters.
Space Wolves: Over thirty units, including special characters.
Blood Angels: Thirty units without special characters.
Tyranids: Over thirty units including special characters.
Orks: Over thirty units including special characters.
Eldar: Over thirty units including special characters.
Chaos Space Marines: Over thirty units including special characters.
Chaos Daemons: Over thirty units including special characters.
Right, I also included variations in that count. Because variations on a unit are also choices on that unit. Such as a baal predator versus a normal predator-- heck they even take different slots.
Nothing is gonna beat Guard's variation, mind, but at least it can be better than what we have now.
I have to disagree. For example, one Sisters troop choice -- i.e., Battle Sisters -- is enough. We don't need Battle Sister Scouts or anything like that. A second troop choice should be non-sisters, whether that's Frateris Militia or Arbitrators. I don't want to turn this thread into a conversation about your fandex, M, but I don't think your various types of Sisters meshes well with what's already been developed by Citadel. It does make one point pretty clearly, however: if GW wants more Sisters units for a Sisters dex, it's going to have to make them up a la Interceptors, Purifiers, and Paladins. Frankly, that may be suitable for the GK but I think it'd be awfully boring both in terms of theme and models for the Sisters. This book is a chance to look at a larger swath of the Imperium. It'd be a paltry waste if all that came out of it were Sisters in Terminator armor and the like.
Manchu wrote:I have to disagree. For example, one Sisters troop choice -- i.e., Battle Sisters -- is enough.
I disagree. It's not enough. Even if it is merely the option to take, say, Celestians as troops, Sisters need MORE options, not less.
We don't need Battle Sister Scouts or anything like that.
Novitiates could be fun. Heck they wouldn't even have to be in carapace, they could be in power armor (novitiates in the Cain books had power armor) and merely be recent or soon to be graduates earning their baptism of fire.
A second troop choice should be non-sisters
I concur with this! We need frateris militia for a Sisters army to truly work . After all, Sisters are frequently supported by the masses of the faithful in battle.
I don't think your various types of Sisters meshes well with what's already been developed by Citadel.
That's because what's already been developed at citadel is hideously lacking in actual substance.
It does make one point pretty clearly, however: if GW wants more Sisters units for a Sisters dex, it's going to have to make them up a la Interceptors, Purifiers, and Paladins. Frankly, that may be suitable for the GK but I think it'd be awfully boring both in terms of theme and models for the Sisters.
Hell no, it's be fething AWESOME. Sisters don't need to be sidelined, they need to steal the damn show, start kicking ass and taking names for ONCE in GW's history! I want to see fluff about an army of Sisters utterly demolishing an entire chapter of Marines. Hell at this point I'd even be willing to put up with Wardisms to make Sisters no longer the scratching post at the ass-end of the 40k continuum.
This book is a chance to look at a larger swath of the Imperium. It'd be a paltry waste if all that came out of it were Sisters in Terminator armor and the like.
Bah, who needs terminator armor when you can have other types of heavy armor? For example, a larger piece of assault armor, not quite at the level of a dreadknight, just a head or two larger than normal power armor-- with the Sister encased entirely inside, using the armor as a linebreaker in an assault, maintaining her normal agility in combat while increasing her strength. It doesn't have to be terminator armor-- it should be something that doesn't really exist in other Imperial army.
I wasn't really talking about less options. Even Dominions have their place although I'm not convinced it's in the Fast Attack FOC slot.
Melissia wrote:Novitiates could be fun. Heck they wouldn't even have to be in carapace, they could be in power armor (novitiates in the Cain books had power armor) and merely be recent or soon to be graduates earning their baptism of fire.
I think what you've actually done there is made a very convincing argument as to why initiates do not need to be a separate unit from Sisters of Battle troop squads.
Bah, who needs terminator armor when you can have other types of heavy armor? For example, a larger piece of assault armor, not quite at the level of a dreadknight, just a head or two larger than normal power armor-- with the Sister encased entirely inside, using the armor as a linebreaker in an assault, maintaining her normal agility in combat while increasing her strength. It doesn't have to be terminator armor-- it should be something that doesn't really exist in other Imperial army.
Alright, you've described a Terminator by any other name/shape. It's really going to be tough to sell heavy-armored SoBs as anything except Feminators. And that's Marine territory -- bug bulky, humanity-hiding armor. The Sisters need to be clearly human (as frail in all but faith as a Guardsman) to retain their best feature, their personality. Repentia would fill this roll so much better. Think of them as armored in their faith.
Here's some wishlisting for you that gets around to the substance of this thread:
HQ - Canoness
- Adeptus Arbites Marshall
- Ministorum Hiearch
- Ministorum Orators (join squads, do not take slots)
- Ordo Minoris Sororita: Dialogus, Hopitaler, & Famulous (join squads, do not take slots)
- Saint Celestine
- First Sister SC (unlocks either Celestians or Dominions as troops)
- Second Sister SC (something with Repentia would be cool)
- Judge SC (unlocks Arbitrators as troops)
- Witchfinder SC (unlocks arcoflagellants as troops)
Troops - Sisters of Battle Squad & Veteran Superior*
- Frateris Militia Mob (no sergeant upgrade)
Fast Attack - Seraphim Squad & Veteran Superior
- Dominions Squad & Veteran Superior*
- Aribtrator Bike Squad & Proctor
- Arbitrator Riot Sentinel Squad
Heavy Support - Retributors Squad & Veteran Superior*
- Rhino
- Supressor^
- Penitent Engine
- Exorcist^
- Black Maria^
* = all from the same new plastic Sisters squad kit (just like GK and SW)
^ = all from one vehicle kit upon Sisters release (kind of like a Rhino-based Leman Russ)
As you can see, there are three strands in the army: Sororitas, Ecclesiarchy, and Arbites. The Sisters are the backbone, having at least one choice in every slot. Ecclesiarchy are next, only missing a Fast Attack choice and doesn't really have a vehicle-- which makes sense for an organization that is not allowed to have a standing army (other than the Sisters). And the Arbites have no troops choice, as they are presumably a morespecialized fighting force. This wishlist also leaves some room for whatever GW might dream up. We know that at least a few things will be completely novel and there's not much point making them up ourselves.
Manchu wrote:Alright, you've described a Terminator by any other name/shape. It's really going to be tough to sell heavy-armored SoBs as anything except Feminators.
To you, but I have better imagination
Repentia would fill this roll so much better. Think of them as armored in their faith.
Frankly, Repentia are an incredibly sexist piece of fluff, I prefer not to think about them.
To me, the army list you posted is very disjointed and incoherent. It's basically something you'd expect to have two codices for, but instead it's all mashed together without much rhyme or reason.
aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.
I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.
But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.
I am a very big fan of Arbites, I think they deserve being fleshed out but honestly they aren't worth their own full codex Its really a matter of Arbite garrisons not fitting the scope of full out war. There just isn't a good way to make them competitive and true to their fluff without relying on another army. Even when you go back to citadel journal 29 all that did was divide Arbites by available models and calling those units... yeah we got bikes and a riot squad, but all that ignores that at their origins is a single highly flexible squad. Just like henchmen in GK, Arbites can serve as that elternaive troop choice.
Melissia wrote:To you, but I have better imagination
If your idea of a cool new unit concept boils down to giving Terminators female heads then we'll have to agree to disagree about who has the better imagination.
Frankly, Repentia are an incredibly sexist piece of fluff . . .
Although it does take a lot of imagination to come up with this!
aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.
I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.
But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.
I am a very big fan of Arbites, I think they deserve being fleshed out but honestly they aren't worth their own full codex Its really a matter of Arbite garrisons not fitting the scope of full out war. There just isn't a good way to make them competitive and true to their fluff without relying on another army. Even when you go back to citadel journal 29 all that did was divide Arbites by available models and calling those units... yeah we got bikes and a riot squad, but all that ignores that at their origins is a single highly flexible squad. Just like henchmen in GK, Arbites can serve as that elternaive troop choice.
Which is why I'm thinkin' the best place is as part of a campaign. Say if the Imperial player 'wins' and secures an area with an Arbites garrison within--then the next mission afterwards he gets an Arbites Kill-Team that gives him bonuses for difficult terrain tests or things like that.
Melissia wrote:To me, the army list you posted is very disjointed and incoherent. It's basically something you'd expect to have two codices for, but instead it's all mashed together without much rhyme or reason.
By contrast, the rhyme and reason are obvious to me: the forces of Imperial Faith and Justice. What I don't want the Sisters book to be is more MEQ. if it's only 60% power armor, that is more than enough.
Manchu wrote:If your idea of a cool new unit concept boils down to giving Terminators female heads
This is exactly what I was talking about when I said lack of imagination.
One does not have to have terminator armor to have heavy armor. I was thinking of something of a bulky, but more rounded style, perhaps with a pair of eviscerators mounted like chainfists. Not terminator armor, but rather, heavy assault armor specifically commissioned by the Ecclesiarchy for the Sisters, they wouldn't fit Marines even if they somehow got access to it. The armor's bulk is primarily in its artificial muscles, allowing it to be surprisingly fast for its size, as well as strong. It does not have relentless, as it's not designed to use heavy weapons, but it does grant the wearer increased strength and toughness (so S3(4) and T3(4) base) plus the 2+ save, possibly with an in-built refractor field at most (As that is something that is commonly manufactured, although a rosariusm might be more appropriate). Possibly no strength enhancement, but instead they can use eviscerators without any initiative penalty.
Essentially, rather than being slow and ponderous weapon platforms like terminator armor, the armor would be a vicious assault platform, but without any ranged firepower, and with a distinct and different visual design that meshes more with the Sororitas theme than the Astartes one.
Manchu wrote:Although it does take a lot of imagination to come up with this!
No it doesn't.
Repentia are sisters that have had a nervous breakdown and are basically severely depressed and masochistic. They go around wearing nothing but flimsy pieces of cloth, and basically try to get themselves killed. Because you know, them crazy womenfolk can't possibly be warriors without frequently having nervous breakdowns because they're violating their maternal instincts.
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Manchu wrote:
Melissia wrote:To me, the army list you posted is very disjointed and incoherent. It's basically something you'd expect to have two codices for, but instead it's all mashed together without much rhyme or reason.
By contrast, the rhyme and reason are obvious to me: the forces of Imperial Faith and Justice. What I don't want the Sisters book to be is more MEQ. if it's only 60% power armor, that is more than enough.
They aren't MEQ. The fandex I posted isn't MEQ. It's Sisters. Everything in there is Sisters stuff, using their fluff as a basis.
Repentia are not the products of nervous breakdowns. Their motivation has nothing at all to do with their gender. You have completely misunderstood them.
The Terminatrix concept doesn't make any sense to me: they have bullkier, heavier armor but they are faster and more agile? Ok. I mean, anything's possible in a fictional setting. But this isn't based on anything currently established as SoB fluff. Like your fandex, this is a Sisters of Melissa idea not a Sisters of Battle idea.
"A pair of Eviscerators" as Chainfists? Really? Huge friggin' swords as "Chainfists"? "It's like Terminator armour, but no ranged firepower so it's sorta fast"?
At most, what we should see for a 'heavy' unit of Sisters is Artificer Armor. It's the same save, has none of the bonuses you mentioned--and most of all it doesn't have to be some crazy invention plopping up out of nowhere.
Also: whoa @ the complete misunderstanding of Repentia. I haven't looked at the book in a long time, but aren't they more about "crisis of faith" instead of "dem crazy womenfolk left da kitchen and plum gone nutters!"?
Biker Sisters aren't part of "their fluff". Nor are Scouty Sisters and Sniper Sisters.
'Scout' role should be relegated to Frateris Militia, and snipers really just should either be former Guardsmen who've 'dedicated themselves' to working for the Ecclesiarchy or just not be in there.
Manchu wrote:Repentia are not the products of nervous breakdowns. Their motivation has nothing at all to do with their gender. You have completely misunderstood them.
No, I don't think I have. Everything described about the Sisters Repentia points towards them basically joining because of a mental disorder which is driven by a mixture of depression and obsession/compulsion disorders. They obsess over every single mistake and flaw, whether real or imagined (punishing themselves over, and I quote, "the smallest imagined transgression"), and loathe themselves, desiring death because they are failures in life.
The Terminatrix concept doesn't make any sense to me
That's because you're stuck in the "all hgeavy armor is terminator armor" mindset...
Of course this isn't based in current Sisters canon. Current Sisters canon is basically nonexistent as far as actual substance goes.
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Kanluwen wrote:Biker Sisters aren't part of "their fluff". Nor are Scouty Sisters and Sniper Sisters.
That's because the Sisters basically don't have any fluff to begin with. They NEED expanded fluff.
Other Sisters pity the Repentia because their outward physical lives are defined by pain and deprivation. But they also revere the Repentia because they have rationally answered this "higher calling" of transcendence via penance. The inner spiritual lives of the Repentia cannot be compared to a "nervous breakdown" in any but the most superficial sense, and even that implies a misunderstanding.
Sure they're revered for their devotion and all, but they're also described as nuking futs with tons of OCD and mental problems, which very disturbingly remind me of various sexist literature I've read.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At any rate, we're veering waaaay off topic now, so I'm gonna drop this. But still...
Melissia wrote:Current Sisters canon is basically nonexistent as far as actual substance goes.
Sometimes I wonder what you even like about them. In the case of Repentia, you clearly don't understand what makes them tick. They're not crazy. Their faith is so strong that they judge even an imagined doubt as a slippery slope into heresy. That is what they're about. They're members of a religious order first and warriors second. If you just want woman commandos, you'll be better off buying some female heads for your IG models.
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Melissia wrote:That's not how C:WH delivers its description.
Yes, it very much does. In fact, it begins by saying that the Repentia attain a state of grace that many aim for but few achieve. Blood of Martyrs contains the same kind of language.
Manchu wrote:Sometimes I wonder what you even like about them.
I think this line describes it best:
"[The Adepta Sororitas] are shining examples of all that is good about humanity."
Me being, at heart, an optimist (as weird as it sounds) in love with the literary idea of a hero/heroine struggling against evil (I do like superhero stories after all, traditional ones instead of anti-heroes)-- even if they do not always (or ever) succeed-- and generally doing everything they can to make the world/galaxy/universe a better place. The idea that this is what the Sisters are resonates with my taste in stories-- the trials they face are about doing the thing... and finding out what exactly this means in the darkness of 40k.
7
This compared to the rest of humanity, whom are basically doing nothing more than struggling to resist temptation, even the Marines... to the point where, in the 40k setting, it's almost a bit banal of a storyline. In comparison, Sisters take it a step further, sacrificing themselves in service to humanity, refusing to bow to the evils of chaos and trying to do more than merely perpetuate the status quo, trying to spread the light to the furthest corners of the galaxy, and to destroy that which would rend the Imperium in twain from within.
They don't always succeed. This being 40k, sometimes they fail at their mission, sometimes they're tricked into doing the wrong thing, sometimes they just make honest or even stupid mistakes, being merely human. But they don't give in, and they don't stop trying to bring light to the darkness. Silly as it sounds, that one statement defines what Sisters are to me.
What about a Sisters of Silence? I'd bet money there will be no Arbites in the new 'dex but I'll be honestly dissappointed if they don't have an SoS unit.
Melissia wrote:This is exactly what I was talking about when I said lack of imagination.
One does not have to have terminator armor to have heavy armor. I was thinking of something of a bulky, but more rounded style, perhaps with a pair of eviscerators mounted like chainfists. Not terminator armor, but rather, heavy assault armor specifically commissioned by the Ecclesiarchy for the Sisters, they wouldn't fit Marines even if they somehow got access to it. The armor's bulk is primarily in its artificial muscles, allowing it to be surprisingly fast for its size, as well as strong. It does not have relentless, as it's not designed to use heavy weapons, but it does grant the wearer increased strength and toughness (so S3(4) and T3(4) base) plus the 2+ save, possibly with an in-built refractor field at most (As that is something that is commonly manufactured, although a rosariusm might be more appropriate). Possibly no strength enhancement, but instead they can use eviscerators without any initiative penalty.
So... a S4, T4, 2+, 5++ large model with a chainfist and a, likely, a bolt weapon? If it looks like a Terminator and quacks like a Terminator...
Melissia wrote:This is exactly what I was talking about when I said lack of imagination.
One does not have to have terminator armor to have heavy armor. I was thinking of something of a bulky, but more rounded style, perhaps with a pair of eviscerators mounted like chainfists. Not terminator armor, but rather, heavy assault armor specifically commissioned by the Ecclesiarchy for the Sisters, they wouldn't fit Marines even if they somehow got access to it. The armor's bulk is primarily in its artificial muscles, allowing it to be surprisingly fast for its size, as well as strong. It does not have relentless, as it's not designed to use heavy weapons, but it does grant the wearer increased strength and toughness (so S3(4) and T3(4) base) plus the 2+ save, possibly with an in-built refractor field at most (As that is something that is commonly manufactured, although a rosariusm might be more appropriate). Possibly no strength enhancement, but instead they can use eviscerators without any initiative penalty.
So... a S4, T4, 2+, 5++ large model with a chainfist and a, likely, a bolt weapon? If it looks like a Terminator and quacks like a Terminator...
Even without the bolt weapon, that looks a damn sight identical to Assault Terminators. In fact, it'd be a dual-chainfist terminator striking at initiative. With the "Feminator" armour increasing the strength to 4, I'd guess the chainfists would then double it to 8, so you have a beast of a sister that's identical to lightning claw terminators, but with str 8 + 2D6 penetration, instead of rerollable str 4.
You mean just like striking scorpions are just T3 footslogging assault marines right? Because as we know, everything is a marine expy. The Leman Russ is just a heavier version of the predator. The Chimera is a better armed version of the Rhino. A Carnifex is just a biological version of a dreadnought. Orks are just cheap marines with really bad aim and (basically) no armor. Pulse Rifles are just a slightly stronger boltgun stolen from Marines. Battlesuits are just tiny dreads. A Lord Commissar is just a cheap Captain. A Hellion is just riding a small land speeder. Battle Sisters are just inferior tactical marines. Lootas are just devastators with limited weapons options. Wraithlord is just a slender dread. Wave Serpent is just a hovering rhino. Lictors are just scouts made into monstrous creatures. Zoanthropes are librarians in tyranid form. Heralds of Khorne are daemon chaplains. Blah blah blah fething blah.
Damn do I want to kick someone in the face right now.
Melissia wrote:We don't even know if Sisters of Silence still exist in 40k. They did in 30k, but there's absolutely no mention of them after the horus heresy.
That's cuz they're waiting for the big reveal in Codex: SoB!
Melissia wrote:To you, but I have better imagination
If your idea of a cool new unit concept boils down to giving Terminators female heads then we'll have to agree to disagree about who has the better imagination.
Frankly, Repentia are an incredibly sexist piece of fluff . . .
Although it does take a lot of imagination to come up with this!
I think anyone who truly believes in the unique merits of the SoB would not want to see their distinctiveness diluted towards making them more like marines, in any way. SoB need to find their own way to have elites.
Specifically when it comes to terminator armor and SoB I think something more in the vein of artificer armor makes more sense as their "elite" armor. At least to me it an elite SoB unit seems more likely to wear artificer armor while carrying a rosarius (or similar device) effectively creating the same effect as terminator armor... but without being terminator armor.
Dunno... if they still exist, they're the army of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. The Ecclesiarchy and the AAT have no love lost between them, to say the least... there's SOME justification for a techpriest or techpriest style Sister, sure, but Sisters and psykers just don't mesh.
If arbites turn up anywhere they better have the homing shells. Can't remember the name but they begin with E. Might be exterminator.
And I think I've read somewhere about sentinals too. I've definatly read about them having land speeders. Sentinals I know I've read from somewhere other than a fandex.
The Black Maria as cool as it is I've only seen in a fandex.
Yes, the Black Maria is cribbed from BoLS. I had imagined it as a Supressor-variant Rhino chassis but in a list that can also take Exorcists, I guess it could be redundant. That gets into just making things up which is what I wanted to avoid in that list so thanks for pointing it out.
The "Riot Sentinels" name is also my creation buy Arbites did have access to Sentinels in CJ29, from what I understand.
Manchu wrote:That gets into just making things up which is what I wanted to avoid in that list
It will be impossible to make a coherent fifth edition codex for Sisters without making things up.
At least a codex that doesn't suck at any rate. We all know that GW is going to make gak up and add in new fluff. It's part of fifth edition, an expansion of the fluff. They made new stuff up for Space Marines and pulled things back from older editions, they made things up for Imperial Guard, they made things up for space wolves, they made things up for Blood Angels, they made things up for Tyranids, they made things up for Dark Eldar, they made things up for Grey Knights. It's nonsensical to think that they'll do NOTHING but maintain the status quo for Sisters.
Melissia wrote:It's nonsensical to think that they'll do NOTHING but maintain the status quo for Sisters.
@Melissia: A little more patience while reading posts you disagree with goes a long, long way to sharpening your comprehension. My last sentence in the post with my wishlisting was:
Manchu wrote:This wishlist also leaves some room for whatever GW might dream up. We know that at least a few things will be completely novel and there's not much point making them up ourselves.
Of course there will be new things. Sisters might be totally and completely different from what we've known up til now, in fact. Sure, you can make up a "Celestian Feminatrix" or "Snipster of Battle" but there's not much we can talk about on that score. I mean, you think those are great ideas that would make the Sisters cool since you think they're awful now. And I think those are boring ideas that whitewash them into MEQ territory. We won't know who is right until the release. For all we know, Robin Curddace (or whoever) may strip them of power armor and give them all cyborg ThunderFlamingo mounts.
OTOH, this is a wishlisting thread. I mean, it's a very specific one about Arbites. Fortunately, Arbites have already had some units actually created for them by GW. We know more about them than units that we're simply making up. The same goes for the Ecclesiarchy: frateris militia, priests, SCs have all been released before. (This is why I thanked Scott for pointing out that the Black Maria is really a fan creation.)
Finally, while there will definitely be new units, any unit that has already been released in C:WH has a incredibly higher chance of making it into the new book than something you've made up. For you, the "Feminatrix" is cooler than the Repentia. But the fact that you dislike Repentia doesn't make the "Feminatrix" more likely to be in the book. The wishlist I wrote was an attempt to stick closer to what's probable. In other words, I'm not trying to impose my own view of SoB onto the wishlist but rather extrapolating from what is actually already established.
Melissia wrote:You mean just like striking scorpions are just T3 footslogging assault marines right? Because as we know, everything is a marine expy. The Leman Russ is just a heavier version of the predator. The Chimera is a better armed version of the Rhino. A Carnifex is just a biological version of a dreadnought. Orks are just cheap marines with really bad aim and (basically) no armor. Pulse Rifles are just a slightly stronger boltgun stolen from Marines. Battlesuits are just tiny dreads. A Lord Commissar is just a cheap Captain. A Hellion is just riding a small land speeder. Battle Sisters are just inferior tactical marines. Lootas are just devastators with limited weapons options. Wraithlord is just a slender dread. Wave Serpent is just a hovering rhino. Lictors are just scouts made into monstrous creatures. Zoanthropes are librarians in tyranid form. Heralds of Khorne are daemon chaplains. Blah blah blah fething blah.
Damn do I want to kick someone in the face right now.
Not quite. You invented something which wasn't a Terminator but shared its stat lines, size, nature and effect.
It'd be like me saying 'I want a walker battlesuit for my Tau on a 60mm base, with AV 12 on the front and sides, with a S6 baseline and a DCCW that doubles it up to S10 on one hand and a twin-linked weapon on the other, but it's not a Dreadnought...'
I don't think we'll see much in the way of completely new tech for the SoB a la the Grey Knights. Even when they were in an Inquisition book there wasn't too much in the way or the fantastical. Now, that they're distancing them from the Inquistion I don't see them going down the route of "Oh, we forgot to tell you about the dreadknight".
Yakface's theory about the alleged stop-gap WD codex for Sisters is that the SoB book will share so many units with the GK book that it makes sense to go ahead and release a "beta" of the balance. Even in that case, however, there will be some new stuff. Will it be as much as Gk got? Probably not. After all, Sisters had more actual Sororitas units than GK had actual GK units in their respective Inq codices. Now, I have no grounds to really argue with Yak's point there. The logic is pretty good. But I really, really, really hope he's wrong. If a SoB book comes out with Ordo Malleus and Xenos Inquisitors and the same henchmen grab bag . . . well, it will be an enormous opportunity squandered. And even if Sisters do get a WD codex sometime soon we won't really know if Yak is right until we actually see a Sisters book. Now will we have to wait three years after a WD dex is released? Maybe so . . .
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aka_mythos wrote:I think anyone who truly believes in the unique merits of the SoB would not want to see their distinctiveness diluted towards making them more like marines, in any way. SoB need to find their own way to have elites.
This is a point I've been meaning to get back to. SoB already have found "their own way to have elites." SoB wear power armor -- that is one of their most distinctive features. Same goes for SM, obviously. Now the SM answer to "how do we make power-armored dudes look even more badass?" is to make that power armor even bigger, bulkier, and less human/more threatening. The thing about SM is that they are these huge, genetically-modified post-humans and - ON TOP OF THAT - they have this awesome armor and some of them - ON TOP OF THAT - have even better armor. Sisters start at the same place: person encased in distinctive armor. But what's different? The person inside is a normal human, both just as frail and just as strong as normal human beings can be. So who could ever think that a unit of Sisters could go toe-to-toe with a unit of Space Marines? The math here is simple: superhuman + power armor > human + power armor. Well, the answer to that is FAITH. Even a Space Marine cannot compare to the SoB when it comes to their faith in the Emperor. This isn't just a matter of SM not thinking the Emperor is a god, either. This is about an objective measurement of devotion, moral endurance, and willpower. So, yes, Sisters do wear power armor -- but their true armor is faith. So how do you make a power-armored Sororitas look even more badass? You take away her power armor. That's what Repentia are really about.
That's why I hope they don't get rid of the Faith points. I thought miracle powers were quite characterful for them.
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Manchu wrote: If a SoB book comes out with Ordo Malleus and Xenos Inquisitors and the same henchmen grab bag . . . well, it will be an enormous opportunity squandered.
Agreed. I'm pretty confident that won't happen. I think it'll basically be Codex: Ecclesiarchy.
Manchu wrote:It's also an Imperial unit that normally wear power armor wearing even heavier armor. Melissia wrote a long line of straw men there.
Aaand? They're the only non-Astartes army that wears all power armor to begin with. The fact that a lot of people with no imagination continually, repeatedly, and consistently state that every single possible new thing-- no matter WHAT it is, people even said this when I tossed out the idea of a Leman Russ tank and a Sentinel being put in my fandex (The former got in, the latter not so much so)-- makes them more like Astartes is mind-numbingly infuriating to the point where discussions on the topic start with me being pissed off, continue with me being pissed off, and END with me being pissed off.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's why I hope they don't get rid of the Faith points. I thought miracle powers were quite characterful for them.
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Manchu wrote: If a SoB book comes out with Ordo Malleus and Xenos Inquisitors and the same henchmen grab bag . . . well, it will be an enormous opportunity squandered.
Agreed. I'm pretty confident that won't happen. I think it'll basically be Codex: Ecclesiarchy.
I'm actually quite confident of the fact that if the rumour about SoB being just a double WD issue/pdf codex isn't true, the new codex will be C:SoB with the parts about inquisition and henchmen just copied over from the GK codex, perhaps with just some little changes like Karamazov granting henchmen as troops instead of coteaz.
Melissia wrote:The fact that a lot of people with no imagination continually, repeatedly, and consistently state that every single possible new thing makes them more like Astartes is mind-numbingly infuriating to the point where . . .
Look -- we haven't exhausted "every single possible new thing" here, Captain Exaggeration. We've talked specifically about two things only: Novitiates and Sisters in heavy power armor. These two things have direct parallels to SM units and you haven't successfully explained how either idea would be significantly different to those units. What you did give was a good explanation of why Initiates shouldn't be a separate unit from Battle Sisters and you described an Assault Terminator BUT BETTER.
Aaand that's not really the point of this thread, anyway. As I said at the outset (because you do this a lot) I really would appreciate it if this didn't become yet another argument about your fandex. The ideas you came up with for that are not sufficiently based on what is currently established about Sisters to be relevant to this topic -- which is, given what we already know about Sisters, how could Arbites fit in if at all.
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GeckoOBac wrote:. . . the new codex will be C:SoB with the parts about inquisition and henchmen just copied over from the GK codex, perhaps with just some little changes like Karamazov granting henchmen as troops instead of coteaz.
Melissia wrote:The fact that a lot of people with no imagination continually, repeatedly, and consistently state that every single possible new thing makes them more like Astartes is mind-numbingly infuriating to the point where . . .
Look -- we haven't exhausted "every single possible new thing" here, Captain Exaggeration.
Not yet. But that's not what I said... rather, my complaint was that every time someone-- ANYONE-- tries to suggest something new for Sisters, a large number of clowns posing as otherwise reasonable posters inevitably cry "omg they're becoming marines!". It does not matter what it is that is being added in. I've seen that complaint in a thread that suggested giving Sisters carapace instead of power armor (because it made sisters like scouts, see, and therefor more like marines!).
This isn't just about my fandex. It's pandemic to the internet as a whole. Not that the internet itself doesn't already have an extended history of pissing me off. I admit to being far too easily trolled...
GeckoOBac wrote:. . . the new codex will be C:SoB with the parts about inquisition and henchmen just copied over from the GK codex, perhaps with just some little changes like Karamazov granting henchmen as troops instead of coteaz.
That would be awful.
I quite agree... I even think that the way it's been done in the GK codex is just a cop out. They did that instead of, you know, actually fleshing out the inquisition... So I have no doubt that if they've gone that road once, they're going to do it again. The removal of "allies" rules was significant enough for me
Feeling trolled doesn't imply that anyone actually trolling you . . .
Power armor gives Sisters a real challenge: how can they be something other than slightly-worse MEQ? The answer, IMO, is not by giving them units that reinforce that concept. Let's get back to Repentia. Do Marines - of any flavor - have anything like Repentia? Nope. So that goes on the credit side of our "No, They're Not MEQ" balance sheet. Give them heavier armor or make them scouts? Are either of those things already done by Marines? Yep. So those ideas are debits on our balance sheet. In some people's eyes, yes, Sisters are already "in the red." Some folks already think of them as MEQ. That shows they don't know much about Sisters, IMO. But if we're going to come up with some ideas for the Sisters -- like throwing around the plausible if not probable idea of including Arbites with them -- let's get our accounting firmly "into the black."
Manchu wrote:Let's get back to Repentia. Do Marines - of any flavor - have anything like Repentia?
Death Company.
What? When I first read about death company Repentia were the first comparison I drew.
"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."
As a side note, the heavy armor I thought of was more 3+/5++ or 3+/4++ in my mind. It focused on strength and agility rather than protection, which is why it was able to move faster than a terminator. Not all heavy power armor is terminator armor. That position is ludicrous.
Although now that I think of it, an eviscerator + shield combination could be epic looking on heavy power armor, and suit the Sisters' paladin or knight of hte church style fluff, a bit better than my previous mention. Perhaps that would also justify their save, and maybe even have a single-use flamer inside the shield (something which already exists in the Dark Heresy roleplay I should note).
The comparison is really weak - hence why no one compares Repentia with Death Company ... I mean they both have rage. That's it. I think this is part of your misunderstanding of Repentia. Repentia are not crazy; Death Company are.
Once again, and hopefully for the last time, I'm not saying there will never be a Feminatrix unit or that such a thing cannot be distinct from Terminators. I'm saying that we can't know what there will be among the new things. No one has ever said all heavy armor is Terminator armor, either. What I have said is that putting Sisters in heavier armor to create an elites choice is not a novel idea because that is a SM trope. You're distinguishing the armor more as you post, which is getting torward a more novel idea. It has a ways to go: what's the fluff concept, for example? That'd be a fine thread to start over in Proposed Rules.
... I never said there WILL be such a thing. Only that it would be cool.
Manchu wrote:The comparison is really weak - hence why no one compares Repentia with Death Company ... I mean they both have rage. That's it. I think this is part of your misunderstanding of Repentia. Repentia are not crazy; Death Company are.
Repentia most certainly are crazy, flagellating themselves for imagined faults (IE, inflicting self-harm), in the words of C:WH.
Eh, that's not crazy for 40k. Death Company think they're literally Sanguinius. The "imagined" faults of Repentia can become very real very fast. Repentia take their vows to atone for even the hint of heresy, the possibility of doubt. In a world where daemons are an actual threat and heresy can lead to the death of billions, that might be wise rather than mad. No doubt they are nuts by IRL standards, however. So is everyone else in 40k.
Kanluwen wrote:I'm really not sure where this "Knight/Templar" image is coming from in regards to the Sororitas.
Outside of having Fleur de Lys and armor, not much about them is very knightly.
They are holy warriors of the church, battling with zeal and faith against its enemies and defending its faithful. Minor orders are formed for specific "quests" in which Sisters in small groups attempt to finish a specific objective along with generally fighting the forces of evil, as well as against heresy and apostasy. They have very ornate power armor which (corset notwithstanding) is reminiscent of plate armor.
DEFINITELY fits the Knight/Paladin/Templar aspect.
One thing that I can't make up my mind about is the idea of having "Psy-Judges." The BoLS fandex has them as what seems to me to be a very obvious homage to Cassandra Anderson. On the one hand, I think the idea has potential. One wonders how psykers are dealt with on a more day-to-day basis and I'd guess something that serious would be dealt with by the Adeptus Arbites. So could there be a specialist ant-psyker Arbitrator squad? Would they themselves be psykers? That last notion is tempting, as the BoLS dex makes clear. But it doesn't really fit the universe, where psykers are not only widely loathed but also routinely rounded up and shipped to Terra.
Sanctionites, however, are those that were shipped to Terra and found both strong of will and strong enough of power to be worthy of bearing the Imperial sanction. Sure they aren't trusted, but they are USED.
While it is doubtful a sanctionite would actually be a part of hte Arbites one being assigned to assist them is not out of the question. Especially a special character.
Melissia wrote:...my complaint was that every time someone-- ANYONE-- tries to suggest something new for Sisters, a large number of clowns posing as otherwise reasonable posters inevitably cry "omg they're becoming marines!". It does not matter what it is that is being added in.
There are a few trolls like that, but you need to recognise that just because some complaints are unjustified doesn't mean they all are. The problem we have with your approach is that you seem to view the lack of things like ordinance, flyers and techpriests as flaws born of incompetent writing that must be corrected, and not a way to make the army list reflect the fluff for a faction forbidden by law from possessing the capability to wage war without support, that follows a specific orthodox religon of which worship of the Omnissiah is not a part.
For example:
I would like to see the Sisters get a non-combatant Hospitaller with a FNP aura, escorted by a small bodyguard of Battle Sisters or Celestians. The aura allows her to heal her fellow Sisters without being part of the squad getting shot, encouraging her use in a manner fitting a non-combatant.
Does anyone feel any urges to shout "OMG, they're becoming marines"?
AlexHolker wrote:The problem we have with your approach is that you seem to view the lack of things like ordinance, flyers and techpriests as flaws born of incompetent writing that must be corrected
That's not a problem. That viewpoint is a SOLUTION to the problem, and the problem is "how can we make Sisters into a full fifth edition codex?".
The only flyer I gave them was a transport designed to go from orbit to land. This is something Sisters need in some form or other, and no amount of justification can claim otherwise. Even Guard have military transports to get from point A in space to point B on the ground-- sure, they're owned by the Navy, but even still, SOME kind of justification is needed for Sisters to be able to move from the space transport in orbit to the battlefield on the ground in a battle situation, which they have been shown doing multiple times but without actually showing us HOW. Marines have their drop pods and thunderhawks (marine jump packs don't actually go from orbit to ground, merely from high altitude to prevent them from burning up), Guard have their Grav Chutes and Valkyries. Sisters have their HEY LOOK OVER HERE A DISTRACTION! *changes topic*
And that's basically standard procedure for Sisters' lore.
AlexHolker wrote:a faction forbidden by law from possessing the capability to wage war without support
No they aren't . They're forbidden from having MEN at arms. Sisters aren't men. The law doesn't say that these Sisters can't have a tank, only that men can't drive it. The law doesn't say that these Sisters can't have an up-armored Arvus Lighter or Aquilla Lander to get them from orbit to ground, only that a man can't fly it for them. The law doesn't say that they can't have a techpriest supporting them or even a techpriest amongst them, it says nothing about that although any techpriest amongst them needs to be not-male.
Seriously, what law are you talking about, except the laws that have never existed in the first place?
Does anyone feel any urges to shout "OMG, they're becoming marines"?
Yes. Because people will scream "omg apothecary THEY'RE BECOMING MORE MEQ!". Yes they will. They already did. Doesn't matter how much different from apothecaries you make the Hospitaller, they'll just say you're trying to make some kind of special apothecary for your special little marine wannabes.
People suck. They're stupid, ignorant, and foolish, and the ones that actually have something of value to contribute to a discussion on what an army needs to become fifth edition are rare exceptions to this rule., and most of THEM have the problem of conflicting views on what exactly the army should be (See our discussion here) making even getting opinions from the people who actually can offer an opinion you care about an iffy proposition.
Hell we can't even agree on the NEED to fill up the plot holes in Sisters lore, nevermind how to fill it up.
Sisters Hospitaler are an example of something that would not make SoB more MEQ. For one thing, they are already established in the fluff as pretty distinct from apothecaries. For another thing, they don't wear power armor.
Kanluwen wrote:I'm really not sure where this "Knight/Templar" image is coming from in regards to the Sororitas.
Outside of having Fleur de Lys and armor, not much about them is very knightly.
They are holy warriors of the church, battling with zeal and faith against its enemies and defending its faithful. Minor orders are formed for specific "quests" in which Sisters in small groups attempt to finish a specific objective along with generally fighting the forces of evil, as well as against heresy and apostasy. They have very ornate power armor which (corset notwithstanding) is reminiscent of plate armor.
DEFINITELY fits the Knight/Paladin/Templar aspect.
"Knight" and "Templar" are not interchangeable with "Paladin".
Paladin is a fantasy archetype built off the other two.
And even then, I'd disagree with it because they don't always "defend the faithful". They do plenty of punishing of the faithful.
Their JOB is to defend the faithful of the Imperium. They don't always succeed, sometimes they kill innocents along with the guilty, but that's the purpose behind their existence. They are but mortals, and they sometimes make mistakes. Doesn't make them any less knightly. Just makes them more human.
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Manchu wrote:Sisters Hospitaler are an example of something that would not make SoB more MEQ. For one thing, they are already established in the fluff as pretty distinct from apothecaries. For another thing, they don't wear power armor.
They can wear power armor just like any other Sister. They don't commonly do so because they don't commonly suit up to go directly into battle for the purpose of killing enemies, so usually they wear shield robes, but I doubt GW would make them wear a carapace equivalent when fighting alongside the Orders Militant.
Either way, they'd still just be apothecaries by another name in the eyes of many people.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From across my time on the internet, I've heard what basically amounts to the following from marine fanboys" Battle sisters are just wannabe tacticals, seraphim are just wannabe assault marines, retributors are just wannabe devastators, repentia are just wannabe death company, penitent engines are just wannabe dreads, celestians are just wannabe sternguard, canonesses are just wannabe captains, and that all Sisters are marines because they all have bolters. Mad doks are just ork apothecaries, and striking scorpions are just marines with T3. I've heard that apparently all AV13 tanks are ripping off marines, all AV14 tanks are just land raider wannabes, that anything that teleports is copying terminators, anything that has jump pack rules is copying assault marines, etc etc etc.
People as a general rule are stupid, and one shouldn't listen to that little stupid part of your brain that says "omg this is more MEQ" because it is lying to you.
It isn't more MEQ-- "MEQ" armies basically already have everything to begin with so all new units will look more like MEQ (and all old units already ARE copies of MEQ units applied to a T3 army), rather, you should worry about not having what specifically defines a marine as a marine instead and try to make units that fit the Sisters' flavor while ignoring the fact that Marines have already basically stolen everything from everyone else to start with.
Melissia wrote:Their JOB is to defend the faithful of the Imperium. They don't always succeed, sometimes they kill innocents along with the guilty, but that's the purpose behind their existence. They are but mortals, and they sometimes make mistakes. Doesn't make them any less knightly. Just makes them more human.
And again: nothing they do is knightly, templary, or paladiny. They're, for lack of a better term, "avengers of the faith". Not its protectors.
Manchu wrote:Sisters Hospitaler are an example of something that would not make SoB more MEQ. For one thing, they are already established in the fluff as pretty distinct from apothecaries. For another thing, they don't wear power armor.
They can wear power armor just like any other Sister. They don't commonly do so because they don't commonly suit up to go directly into battle for the purpose of killing enemies, so usually they wear shield robes, but I doubt GW would make them wear a carapace equivalent when fighting alongside the Orders Militant.
Either way, they'd still just be apothecaries by another name in the eyes of many people.
Making them give FNP would do nothing to help that concept. Just because they're a "medic" doesn't mean they need to give FNP.
From across my time on the internet, I've heard what basically amounts to the following from marine fanboys" Battle sisters are just wannabe tacticals, seraphim are just wannabe assault marines, retributors are just wannabe devastators, repentia are just wannabe death company, penitent engines are just wannabe dreads, celestians are just wannabe sternguard, canonesses are just wannabe captains, and that all Sisters are marines because they all have bolters. Mad doks are just ork apothecaries, and striking scorpions are just marines with T3. I've heard that apparently all AV13 tanks are ripping off marines, all AV14 tanks are just land raider wannabes, that anything that teleports is copying terminators, anything that has jump pack rules is copying assault marines, etc etc etc.
I love how you say that this is exclusive to "marine fanboys". To anyone who isn't reading the Sisters fluff, Sisters are simply Marines in corsets with bad 90's haircuts.
People as a general rule are stupid, and one shouldn't listen to that little stupid part of your brain that says "omg this is more MEQ" because it is lying to you.
MEQ doesn't mean what you think it means.
Is the army made up of mostly 3+ saves with Bolters? If yes: MEQ applies.
It isn't more MEQ-- "MEQ" armies basically already have everything to begin with so all new units will look more like MEQ (and all old units already ARE copies of MEQ units applied to a T3 army), rather, you should worry about not having what specifically defines a marine as a marine instead and try to make units that fit the Sisters' flavor while ignoring the fact that Marines have already basically stolen everything from everyone else to start with.
Noir wrote:No, but thats only becouse I think they should of been a limit 1 Elite IG unit. They would join a IG force, when there planet is under full scale invasion.
I agree, and honestly, that's how I feel about the Grey Knights as a whole. Perhaps I'm just living in the past where Grey Knights were a bunch of terminator-armored badasses that showed up in the key part of the battlefield to deal with daemons and nothing but daemons (100 vs. Angron and his 20 bloodthirsters on Armageddon for example). Incorruptible Space Marine psykers with the purest gene seed simply seem too precious to be relegated to rhino-driving duties, or manning power-loaders. But maybe that's just me...
Anyway, like it or not, Ordo Hereticus has plenty of fluff associations with the Sisters of Battle. I think there's a fair chance they just take the assassins and inquisitor-related stuff from C:GK and copy&paste it over. Then you could represent shields/stun battons with crusaders and shotguns with stormbolters.
Interesting discussion. Although now we're a bit distant from the original post, still relative I think though.
Adeptus Arbites:
1.) Hell yes I'd like to see them in this codex. Anyone else see judge dredd dispensing the "LOAAAW?" Seriously though, a new excuse to have an awesome looking model for my Sisters of Badassness? Count me in.
2.) Dunno much about why they'd get involved, and perhaps Melissia seems to have mentioned it is because there's really not much to go off of. (Which I think is perfect, having not much to go off of gives them freedom to create a good reason, rather than being constrained by heavily established fluff and making it contrived.)
3.) Rules-wise? I see them in a support role. Special grenade launcher rounds and the suppression shield. Faith charged bolters already fill the 12 inches niche, so shotguns can get redundant (but redundancy is the new fad?!) but having special grenade launcher rounds can provide utility on the battlefield. It may not be much killy, but it will help the rest of the army do their job. Example: A special grenade round that reduces LD by -2. Or, a round that prevents the target from getting the +1 attack bonus for charging on their turn. Or whatever wacky thing you might be able to think of that would give OTHER units an edge in doing their job.
4.) I personally don't think Arbites would be able to compete in an all out war scenario. I do see them supporting a military force though, hence my focus on a support role.
Side note: As far as the recent Sisters discussion seems to be going: Sister's have one aspect going for them that no other army has: Supernatural abilities powered by nothing but their faith and dedication. More than one opponent would voice to me "what? squishy humans in power armor? Piece of cake." When he saw that my heavy flamers were punching through his terminator armor; he wasn't so happy. Subsequent games had him thinking about the capabilities of the Sister's faith powers, and he saw that they did have a place on the tablestop.
I say that this unique aspect of the Sister should be capitalized on and be a very large focus for the new codex.
AlexHolker wrote:a faction forbidden by law from possessing the capability to wage war without support
No they aren't . They're forbidden from having MEN at arms. Sisters aren't men. The law doesn't say that these Sisters can't have a tank, only that men can't drive it. The law doesn't say that these Sisters can't have an up-armored Arvus Lighter or Aquilla Lander to get them from orbit to ground, only that a man can't fly it for them. The law doesn't say that they can't have a techpriest supporting them or even a techpriest amongst them, it says nothing about that although any techpriest amongst them needs to be not-male.
Seriously, what law are you talking about, except the laws that have never existed in the first place?
Do you wonder why the Decree Passive forbade the Ecclesiarchy from having men at arms? It's not because the High Lords were feeling particularly sexist that day, it was because they didn't want another Age of Apostasy on their hands. They wanted to weaken the Ecclesiarchy to the point where another Vandire couldn't try to seize control of the Imperium, so they ordered the entire Ecclesiarchy military disbanded.
And the reason Thor was allowed to keep the Sisters is not because the High Lords were some kind of Lawful Stupid fae, bound by words and incapable of responding to someone following the letter and not the spirit of a new rule, it's because they were convinced to accept the Sisters as an exception. That's the Sisters, not everything and anything as long as the crew has two X chromosomes.
Kanluwen wrote:Just because they're a "medic" doesn't mean they need to give FNP.
That's exactly what it means. In 3rd and 4th Editions, it meant ignoring the first failed save each turn. In 5th Edition, it means granting a FNP save.
Is the army made up of mostly 3+ saves with Bolters? If yes: MEQ applies.
What defines the typical marine is his more physical stats-- WS4/BS4/S4/T4/I4.
Not power armor. A marine outside of power armor with no bolter is still a marine with those stats I mentioned above (Scouts being an exception because they haven't built their skills up to WS4/BS4 yet).
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AlexHolker wrote:Do you wonder why the Decree Passive forbade the Ecclesiarchy from having men at arms?
Yes, I damned well do. But the realities of war require more than just a strong heart and good aim. The Sisters also exist because they help regulate the power of the Ecclesiarchy, as the Sisters are themselves essentially inviolate in purity.
So what, exactly, about everything you said prevents Sisters from, say, flying a modified Arvus/Aquilla lander to drop off a squad of sisters on or near the battlefield? This isn't some extraordinary craft designed for combat, nor is it a long-ranged space faring vessel. It is a light orbital lander designed to move personnel from point A in space to point B on the ground. What, exactly, about everything you said prevents Sisters from driving tanks-- which they already have in a lighter form-- to cleanse their enemies? What, exactly, about everything yous aid prevents Sisters from utilizing a different style of warfare than normal, from one of the many, MANY ecclesiarchal sects whom are deemed faithful enough? The Ecclesiarchy as a general rule has two basic tenets, which is worship the Emperor and don't consort with Chaos/Xenos, and within those two rulesets it has a wide variety of beliefs depending on the planet.
Hell, to try to drag this back on topic, one could even say that Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy often have a lot in common because of this (Arbites shut down heretical cults, investigate daemon worship, and break up trade rings which deal with xenos as part of their jobs on most planets). Many of the Adeptus Arbites are trained by the Ecclesiarchy to boot (through the Schola Progenium).
Somewhat off-topic but Melissia, I know you think the Adeptus Soriatus are the "good guys" but they really aren't. They're stone-cold killers. I think you might be in for a surprise very similiar to the 'I thought the Grey Knights were White Knights" controversy that Dakka went through a while ago. SoBs are one of the darker, hard-core factions.
The simple fact is GW doesn't really want to represent any single faction in 40k or WFB to be clear cut good guys 100% of the time. In WFB, look at Bretonnians who went from being Arthurian knights to being corrupt lords who keep their peasants in their place through ignorance and oppression while exploiting myth. I think SoB and GK have seen similar things happen with them. GW wants there to always be exceptions with every faction to allow players to interpret the army as broadly as they like.
The only thing that I would object to is if Sisters are made out to be victims in this regard rather than the aggressors: "poor girls are never told anything but what they're doing is for the best, and they're naive enough to believe it, bless them." That'd be awful. GK do what they must in full knowledge of its moral consequence and I think Sisters should be the same in that regard.
Maybe it boils down to a difference in tone but I'd rather have: "Initiates sometimes balk at the horror of their duty but must soon overcome this moral weakness or face expulsion from their order. The faith of a fully-fledged Sister of Battle precludes all doubt; for doubt can lead only to heresy, and heresy can lead only to damnation. Those Sisters who detect even the shadow of doubt in their conscience expunge it with vows as a Repentia, paying for any potential infidelity by spending the balance of their lives in constant penance. Such is the magnitude of what the Emperor demands from His daughters."
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Somewhat off-topic but Melissia, I know you think the Adeptus Soriatus are the "good guys" but they really aren't. They're stone-cold killers. I think you might be in for a surprise very similiar to the 'I thought the Grey Knights were White Knights" controversy that Dakka went through a while ago. SoBs are one of the darker, hard-core factions.
The Grey Knights were never, ever white knights, and anyone that thought that is an idiot. Even back in 2nd edition they were making hard choices that made the more weeny inhabitants of the 40k universe (like Logan Grimnar) hate them for it.
The controversy was that they were these perfect, incorruptible knights fighting a hopeless uphill battle against the daemon, knowing that victory is impossible and defeat is inevitable, but carrying on regardless. All they needed was their incredibly valuable suit of terminator armor and their trusty Nemesis weapon. Now they are these ultra hard core badasses that are curbstomping demons all over the place, there is a subfaction that's even more pure than 100% pure, and there is a guy within that subfaction who is even more pure than the guys who are more pure than 100% pure, and they have Aliens-style power loaders and are delegating masterful incorruptible Space Marine psykers to driving transports.
Anyway, how exactly is the Ecclesiarchy/Sororitas "hardcore dark-side"? I mean, yes, they do a lot of things in the style of the Dark Ages Inquisition, burning/torturing those even suspected of heresy and the like, but come on, this is the 40K universe. That kind of hard-core crackdown is MANDATORY unless you want your skies to split in two and drown the world in blood and daemons every other weekend.
The fact that the GK fluff has for the longest time stated that in 10,000 years not a single GK has defected to chaos, I'd say they're probably as white knight as it comes. Simply nothing in 40k is meant to be straight forwardly good.
Not to Godwin this up but the SoBs are the SS of the Imperium, including the Einsatzgruppen. Genocide is standard operating procedure of the IoM. Who do you think is the one getting that done? The Ecclesiarchy and their chamber militant. The wars of faith? Many worlds have mutant slave labour but technically this is illegal. All mutants and must die and its the Ordo Hericitus and SoBs that carry out this decree. And not nicely: with fire! In DoW the Sisters are described as the most fearsome faction of all of them and this is a game with Orks, Chaos Marines, Necrons and the rest. No! The SoBs are the most frightening. There's a reason for this. C:WH is the only 'dex to throw around the word Pogrom.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Genocide is standard operating procedure of the IoM. Who do you think is the one getting that done?
The Imperial Guard most of the time. Other times it's Sisters. Other times it's Astartes. Other times it's just the Imperial Navy bombing them into oblivion.
Exterminatus is carried out by whoever is around at the time. As far as I know, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't even have the authority to issue an Exterminatus (not to mention them lacking the fleet resources that it takes to annihilate a planet).
As for exterminating the mutant, the psyker and the heretic, again, this is sheer necessity.
aka_mythos wrote:The fact that the GK fluff has for the longest time stated that in 10,000 years not a single GK has defected to chaos, I'd say they're probably as white knight as it comes. Simply nothing in 40k is meant to be straight forwardly good.
Not falling to Chaos doesn't really make you a white knight. If you see Grey Knights, there are not there to save you, it means you and everything you've ever known is doomed.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Genocide is standard operating procedure of the IoM. Who do you think is the one getting that done?
The Imperial Guard most of the time. Other times it's Sisters. Other times it's Astartes. Other times it's just the Imperial Navy bombing them into oblivion.
Good 'ole fashioned subhuman/human bonfires though? That's the SoBs trademark. Their motto should be "Kill it fire!"
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Genocide is standard operating procedure of the IoM. Who do you think is the one getting that done?
The Imperial Guard most of the time. Other times it's Sisters. Other times it's Astartes. Other times it's just the Imperial Navy bombing them into oblivion.
Good 'ole fashioned subhuman/human bonfires though? That's the SoBs trademark. Their motto should be "Kill it fire!"
I've always liked the Sisters. For me, the acts of faith are something that really helped cement them as 'not MEQ'. That there is something that'd serve well as a foundation for distinct specialist units - maybe some sort of 'choir' unit that doesn't have any fighting value, but has an aura of easier/free acts of faith.
And you can expect a bigass plastic MC. Accept that right now, folks
lindsay40k wrote:For me, the acts of faith are something that really helped cement them as 'not MEQ'.
I heartily agree. And I think they are further distinguished by Acts of Faith because there is diversity in their current book but they are still the only units in the book that can access them. (Of course, I would like to see this re-worked so that Repentia can also benefit as they are in fact Sisters of Battle, albeit Sisters without bolters -- hey a good band name!)
So any Arbites in a new book should certainly not have access to Acts of Faith, tremendously faithful to the Emperor and His Law though they are.
aka_mythos wrote:The fact that the GK fluff has for the longest time stated that in 10,000 years not a single GK has defected to chaos, I'd say they're probably as white knight as it comes. Simply nothing in 40k is meant to be straight forwardly good.
Not falling to Chaos doesn't really make you a white knight. If you see Grey Knights, there are not there to save you, it means you and everything you've ever known is doomed.
Well not falling to chaos mean incorruptible... and when I say they're as "white knight as it comes," I'm speaking relativistically... as in everything else in the universe is soooooo not white knight that the Grey Knights incorruptibility makes them the closest to being "white knight." This is not to say they're "white knight"... just given the setting they're one of the closest thing.
I would say they're more like Paladins in that they're immune to spiritual corruption and their mere presence is anathema to the unnatural--but the flesh can still fail them and they can fall to the forces of 'evil' that they oppose.
Paladins are immune to spirtual corruption and anathema to warp entities? I thought that was Purifiers? Also, isn't this tangent about GK pretty far off-topic?
Aaaaaanyway. Book of Judgment for DH will be coming out later this year so we will definitely see a lot more of the Adeptus Arbites there.
Manchu wrote:Paladins are immune to spirtual corruption and anathema to warp entities? I thought that was Purifiers? Also, isn't this tangent about GK pretty far off-topic?
Since we were using the archetypes of RPGs, seemingly, I was using one right there.
Y'know, the whole thing about Paladins being immune to spiritual corruption and the mere presence of a high level Paladin physically hurting many forms of demons and undead.
Aaaaaanyway. Book of Judgment for DH will be coming out later this year so we will definitely see a lot more of the Adeptus Arbites there.
Hrmh. You'd think they would have been in before now.
Yes, they are covered (Arbitrator is a basic class in the core book; Judge is an "Ascended" class in the advanced play book) but the upcoming volume will be devoted to them much in the same way Blood of Martyrs was devoted to the Ecclesiarchy and Sisters.
Also, I believe an Arbites judge makes a cameo in some fairly recent BL novel. Was it Titanicus perhaps? I only remember that it was a very brief appearance.
Yeah, Matthew Farrer's Shira Calphurnia series. The one I am thinking of has one chapter about a judge meeting with an Imperial governor or something similar and basically being murdered/assassinated in that same chapter.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not really. Guard at the behest on the Inquistion maybe, but I don't see Astartes bothering to go clear out an illegal mutant ghetto.
You can bet if a mutant ghetto cropped up on one of their planets (the ones that aren't deathworlds where mutant babies are fed to the -insert local predator- upon birth), the Astartes would wipe them out in short order. Of course, half the Space Marine chapters are illegal mutants anyway. Space Wolves for example need to be "killed with fire" ASAP.
Mutants deserve death. Filthy subhuman savages. By killing them we ensure they avoid their inevitable fall to Chaos, and by killing them with fire we ensure their corruption doesn't spread. Purge the Xenos, the Mutant and the Heretic! With Fire!
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4M2A wrote:While SoB are used they are still the force of the ecclesiarchy rather than the inquisition and so are harder for the inquisition to command. The arbites are much more common and will listen to an Inquisitor without question. They have a faster response time as they are already present on most planets. They fulfil the ordo hereticus needs perfectly in most situations.
Everyone listens to an Inquisitor's orders without question if they know what's good for them. If you accept the last codex' fluff as canon, the Sororitas are also the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not really. Guard at the behest on the Inquistion maybe, but I don't see Astartes bothering to go clear out an illegal mutant ghetto.
You can bet if a mutant ghetto cropped up on one of their planets (the ones that aren't deathworlds where mutant babies are fed to the -insert local predator- upon birth), the Astartes would wipe them out in short order. Of course, half the Space Marine chapters are illegal mutants anyway. Space Wolves for example need to be "killed with fire" ASAP.
Mutants deserve death. Filthy subhuman savages. By killing them we ensure they avoid their inevitable fall to Chaos, and by killing them with fire we ensure their corruption doesn't spread. Purge the Xenos, the Mutant and the Heretic! With Fire!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
4M2A wrote:While SoB are used they are still the force of the ecclesiarchy rather than the inquisition and so are harder for the inquisition to command. The arbites are much more common and will listen to an Inquisitor without question. They have a faster response time as they are already present on most planets. They fulfil the ordo hereticus needs perfectly in most situations.
Many worlds have mutant ghettos and their local neighborhood chapter doesn't care. They have better things to do than shoot unarmed slaves. Except Black Templars, they don't have anything better to do.
Anyways, you have very Puritan views - you'd make a good Sister.
Everyone listens to an Inquisitor's orders without question if they know what's good for them. If you accept the last codex' fluff as canon, the Sororitas are also the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus.
Manchu wrote:Yes, they are covered (Arbitrator is a basic class in the core book; Judge is an "Ascended" class in the advanced play book) but the upcoming volume will be devoted to them much in the same way Blood of Martyrs was devoted to the Ecclesiarchy and Sisters.
There's also the Radical Handbook, which introduces the Mortiurge, basically an Arbites lone wolf secret but sanctioned assassin type guy.
Manchu wrote:One thing that I can't make up my mind about is the idea of having "Psy-Judges." The BoLS fandex has them as what seems to me to be a very obvious homage to Cassandra Anderson. On the one hand, I think the idea has potential. One wonders how psykers are dealt with on a more day-to-day basis and I'd guess something that serious would be dealt with by the Adeptus Arbites. So could there be a specialist ant-psyker Arbitrator squad? Would they themselves be psykers? That last notion is tempting, as the BoLS dex makes clear. But it doesn't really fit the universe, where psykers are not only widely loathed but also routinely rounded up and shipped to Terra.
The novel Execution Hour heavily features the Arbites (it's where the Arbites having a fleet of Strike Cruisers was first established I think). In it appears an Arbites psyker, called Truthseeker (though I'd guess that's a local designation).
Manchu wrote:The one I am thinking of has one chapter about a judge meeting with an Imperial governor or something similar and basically being murdered/assassinated in that same chapter.
I think that was in one of the Word Bearers novels. An Arbites Marshall executes the Governor for incompetence shortly before being killed himself (along with the rest of the government) when the throne room is bombed. Something along those lines.
Manchu wrote:
Check out that cybermastiff! Bigger than I envision a possible Citadel redux but fething awesome.
That'd be a Panther Securibot. Thanks for the picture. I had been looking for one that provides a size comparision with 40k.
Another nice alternate model is the D&D Iron Defender, which is about the same size as the Necromunda mastiff (just slightly smaller).
JaqTaar wrote:The novel Execution Hour heavily features the Arbites (it's where the Arbites having a fleet of Strike Cruisers was first established I think). In it appears an Arbites psyker, called Truthseeker (though I'd guess that's a local designation).
Yes, I saw your post on Warseer about this. As far as can tell, that book is still in good-standing fluff-wise. It's currently being sold by BL as print-on-demand.
JaqTaar wrote:
Manchu wrote:The one I am thinking of has one chapter about a judge meeting with an Imperial governor or something similar and basically being murdered/assassinated in that same chapter.
I think that was in one of the Word Bearers novels. An Arbites Marshall executes the Governor for incompetence shortly before being killed himself (along with the rest of the government) when the throne room is bombed. Something along those lines.
THANK YOU! This was driving me nuts. What a forgetable book, by the way.
Manchu wrote:That'd be a Panther Securibot. Thanks for the picture. I had been looking for one that provides a size comparision with 40k.
Another nice alternate model is the D&D Iron Defender, which is about the same size as the Necromunda mastiff (just slightly smaller).
And THANK YOU again, this time for introducing me to Aberrant Games!
Although that's probably still a .50 cal.
Its really a matter of Arbite garrisons not fitting the scope of full out war. There just isn't a good way to make them competitive and true to their fluff without relying on another army. Even when you go back to citadel journal 29 all that did was divide Arbites by available models and calling those units... yeah we got bikes and a riot squad, but all that ignores that at their origins is a single highly flexible squad. Just like henchmen in .JPG)