Alright, let's start this discussion with this: I think the GK would be completely erased With each fallen Custode having killed many, many GK.
The Custodes are bigger, better, and only marginally weaker than Primarchs.
There are 10,000 of them.
Their Guardian Spears are just like the GK halberds...except they have bolters/huge lasers in the end.
They are lead by Valdor.
They out-number the GK 10:3
They're Gold. Gold.
They have armour that has been said by several sources to be better than any astartes PA, so it would be like artificer armour, except it is more trim, meaning that if anyone were to argue using game mechanics, they would probably have Fleet of Foot.
In The First Heretic One custodian had a full clip of bolts pumped into him, his head cut off, mounted on a pole, and was still alive, after having killed three astartes in 3 seconds.
Also in that book, a group of 3(?) custodians fought 11 possessed Chaos Space Marines, including a possessed chapter master, and killed 7(?)
dont be so sure. the gk have an impressive arsenal of nasty that the custodes would have a hard time matching. im sure they have their tricks too, but the gk are all psykers which counts in the long run. Are they meeting up in the field or is this a siege battle? one on one i think a custodes would prevail, but it would be a close one. Custodes are not that big mate. not compared to a marine anyway.
tarnish wrote:dont be so sure. the gk have an impressive arsenal of nasty that the custodes would have a hard time matching. im sure they have their tricks too, but the gk are all psykers which counts in the long run. Are they meeting up in the field or is this a siege battle? one on one i think a custodes would prevail, but it would be a close one. Custodes are not that big mate. not compared to a marine anyway.
They kind of are. A custode is to an Astartes what and Astartes is to a guardsman. Valdor, physically the same as every other custode, beat horus in a one-on-one fight.
Custodes are better - they are after all the custodians of the Golden Throne and Emperor's remains.
But why people always assume ( you also ) that they need to fight one another to prove something? They are 2 most powerful SM in the Imperium, they will never fought one another...
Grey Knights are only better when it comes to psychic powers and experienced ( they have after all fought in the last 10.000 years - Custodes have not... ).
I'd say Custodes as well. Yeah the GK are psykers but I'm sure the Custodes have their own anti-pysker talents and wargear. There's no specific fluff mention (I think?) but it'd be beyond ridiculous if some epsilon-level nobody could wave a hand and bend over the most elite warriors in the IoM. They protect the Golden Throne ffs.
Brother Coa wrote:They are 2 most powerful SM in the Imperium, they will never fought one another...
Didn't Loken say much the same thing about his Brother Astartes in Horus Rising, almost word for word?
That was different, these are not ordinary Astartes...
It is not that they arent ordinary Astartes, it is that they ARENT astartes. Their process of creation is entirely different, and so are they.
Also, as for them having battled in the last 10,000 years, I remember some fluff that said that sometimes daemons come through the hole in reality beneath the imperial palace and the three hundred custodes in the emperor`s personal presence fend them off regularly. Plus there`s the blood games...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who actually voted GK...I am just wondering...
I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.
Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.
So they're less elite because they guard The Emperor?
Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.
That is some of the worst reasoning I have ever read.
Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.
Because if the Big E ever was attacked the entire IoM would be at risk of being destroyed. Can't be too careful with that kind of job, more the better.
Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.
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Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.
Only 300 actually watch him, the rest watch over the palace grounds, keep an eye on other lords of terra to shut down on any attempt of treason, and participate in Blood Games
And the acting Captain-General participates in all meetings of terran high lords and the heads of all the adeptuses, or whatever the plural of adeptus is.
Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.
That's your reason? They don't just Guard the EoM but also Holly Terra. Because they are there, there is no need for Space Marines or Imperial Guard to Guard it. I say that actually relieve great number of solders need for it's protection...
Beside, who would you put to Guard Emperor? Even Guiliman is Guarded by Ultramarines veterans, I think they didn't abandon him even when Tyranid attacked....
im2randomghgh wrote:Alright, let's start this discussion with this: I think the GK would be completely erased With each fallen Custode having killed many, many GK.
Ok Custodes are cool and everything but they aren't psykers and don't appear to have any protection against attacks of this nature. That's why during the assault on Prosepro the Sisters of Silence were sent with them. The Grey Knights are not that much different to pre heresy Thousand Sons. The Grey Knights, if they were fully 'Warded' up would annihilate the Custodes. If it was a hand to hand battle it would still be a close run thing.
im2randomghgh wrote:The Custodes are bigger, better, and only marginally weaker than Primarchs.
No, they are supposed to be a stronger and only slightly larger than an Astartes. Abnett claims that, though Custodians are slightly larger, on average, than Space Marines, their fighting skills are more or less equal Not sure where you are getting the 'marginally weaker than Primarchs' thing from. A Primarch would break a Custodes as much as an Astartes. The strength of the Custodes is their ability to think on their own. But reading First Heretic you will also know that this is their weakness. Astartes fight together as a group.
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im2randomghgh wrote:There are 10,000 of them.
Ok, not sure where that is coming from either. They were never intended to be little more than the Emperor bodyguards or emissaries so that number seems way to big to me.
im2randomghgh wrote:Their Guardian Spears are just like the GK halberds...except they have bolters/huge lasers in the end
Grey Knights have Nemesis Force weapons and Storm Bolters. Halbreds are cool yeah, but what else do they have in their arsenal? The state of the Custodes now is more than likely different to when the Heresy was raging.
im2randomghgh wrote:They are lead by Valdor.
Are they really? Even now after 10,000 years? We don't know this.
im2randomghgh wrote:They out-number the GK 10:3
As above on the numbers, are you sure?
Hmm, doing some digging I have found a reference to 10,000 blades but this is back in 3rd ed. Need to do some more digging.
im2randomghgh wrote:They're Gold. Gold.
Whoop!
im2randomghgh wrote:They have armour that has been said by several sources to be better than any astartes PA, so it would be like artificer armour, except it is more trim, meaning that if anyone were to argue using game mechanics, they would probably have Fleet of Foot.
But then the Grey Knights armour is not your regular Astartes armour either.
im2randomghgh wrote:In The First Heretic One custodian had a full clip of bolts pumped into him, his head cut off, mounted on a pole, and was still alive, after having killed three astartes in 3 seconds.
What, alive, after his head was cut off ... impressive.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also in that book, a group of 3(?) custodians fought 11 possessed Chaos Space Marines, including a possessed chapter master, and killed 7(?)
I don't think those numbers are highly accurate either, i think it was more like 7 on 3 but will double check tonight and repost.
King Pariah wrote:Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.
Source please?
ph34r wrote:The leader of the custodes is on par with a Primarch in power.
Source for that? I would guess that the leader of the Custodes is powerful, but only on par with the standing of a Chapter Master
I would sat that both are as Elite as each other as they both serve very specific roles.
Pilau Rice wrote: Ok, not sure where that is coming from either. They were never intended to be little more than the Emperor bodyguards or emissaries so that number seems way to big to me.
From Lexicanum : "The Eternity Gate is the Imperial Palace's final gateway to the Sanctum Imperialis and its Golden Throne, and the Emperor himself. Two Imperial Titans of the honored Legio Ignatum stand guard, an eternal vigil they share with the 10,000 guards of the Adeptus Custodes."
And now there is only 1000 GK, so they outnumber them 10:1
Custodes are slighty taller, stronger and faster than an average Astartes, as each one is an individual rather than a batch copy.
This individuality is their greatest weakness. Each is a warrior fighting his own battle. Sure they're powerful on their own, but they aren't a coherent team work force like the Space Marines.
Their Halberds are on par with Nemesis Force Weapons in terms of power and carry a varity of atached armaments such as a boltgun which is the most common, their armour is essentially artificer, so its between Power and Terminator in ability.
They are not psykers or blanks.
They are highly skilled fighters and experts with the blade, they were trained at the Emperors side, I assume that now they are trained internally by Veterans.
They are possibly the most loyal and motivated soldiers in the Imperium. They personally guard the Emperor in life and on The Throne. They have an near unmatched sense of duty.
Grey Knights are not your average Space Marine, as remarkable as they are. They are not physically stronger or faster than an ordinary chapter and aren't faster or stronger than the Custodes, but each is more of an individual than say an Ultramarine.
Whereas Custodes main weakness was their individuality, Grey Knights do not suffer from this, and whilst retaining part of what makes the Custodes special, they don't sacrifice their ability to work as a team.
As I said, their Nemesis weapons are on par with the Custodes Guardian Spears, and every Grey Knight carries a Stormbolter or another weapon on their left arm. These weapons are more powerful than the bolters on the Custodes weapons, and Grey Knights are able to transport several Heavy Weapons that the Custodes have not been described as using. Grey Knight Aegis armour is not as good as Artificer but it is better than you're average Power armour. The Majority of Grey Knights are equipped with Terminator armour, sacrificing speed and manouverability for protection and strength. As such, A grey Knight will probably equal or exceed the strength or a Custode in terminator armour, and will have better protection.
This is the Grey Knights greatest advantage. Each one is a powerful psyker, able to unleash the powers of the Warp, power that is amplified by the Grey Knights weapon and armour. Custodes have not been described as having any Psyker abilities so are vastly outmatched.
Each Grey Knight has equal or possibly even greater skill with their chosen weapon than the Custodes. Whilst the Custodes will obtain an higher level of mastery on the training ground, the Grey Knights formidable training is amplified by a life time of Battlefield experience, something the Custodes have so far never had.
Grey Knights are whilst hugely loyal, do not have the same sense of duty that the Custodes have. Guarding the Emperor gives them a conviction even the Grey Knights could never match.
If they were to battle, I would give it to the Custodes in an individual duel, but to the Grey Knights if it were a force of say, 100 vs 100. Grey Knights work as a team, they coordinate their attacks and abilities. First Heretic described it, each Custode is a Lion. Unmatched in might on his own, but they will not work together. Astartes are Wolves. Weaker on his own, but together, they outmatch even the Lion.
King Pariah wrote:
Only 300 actually watch him, the rest watch over the palace grounds, keep an eye on other lords of terra to shut down on any attempt of treason, and participate in Blood Games
Pilau Rice wrote:Ok, next thing to do then is check where Lexicanum sources those figures, 3rd and 4th ed Rulebook and Draco, two of which I have at home.
Here you are:
Inquisition War (Novel Series), Inquisitor (Novel), by Ian Watson
Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Rulebook
Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook
Pilau Rice wrote:Ok, next thing to do then is check where Lexicanum sources those figures, 3rd and 4th ed Rulebook and Draco, two of which I have at home.
Here you are:
Inquisition War (Novel Series), Inquisitor (Novel), by Ian Watson
Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Rulebook
Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook
King Pariah wrote:Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.
Source please?
Constantine Valdor was one of the first High Lords of Terra. He also had a close relationship with the Primarchs Rogal Dorn and Leman Russ, although initially Russ and Valdor didn't see eye to eye. Dorn was ever-present at the Imperial Palace during the great Crusade and so Valdor and the Primarch spent much time together. On the other hand, Valdor only earned Russ's respect when the former defeated Horus in a sparring match. The two were then together during the Battle of Prospero. There is no mention of when or how Valdor was killed if he was killed at all. He stepped down from command as a High Lord so that he could protect his beloved Emperor, now ensconsed within the Golden Throne.
King Pariah wrote:Valdor only earned Russ's respect when the former defeated Horus in a sparring match.
For this please, where is this coming from?
Not 100% trusting of 40k Wiki or Lexicanum as both are editable by anyone.
Okay, so I'm very new to 40k (I just started playing last October) so I don't have the extensive background most everyone else here seems to have. If i can find a more credible source, I'll post it, but until then, this is what I'm running on.
King Pariah wrote:
Only 300 actually watch him, the rest watch over the palace grounds, keep an eye on other lords of terra to shut down on any attempt of treason, and participate in Blood Games
What are the Blood Games? Sounds awesome!
It's a story in "Tales of Heresy" and yes, it is awesome.
Pilau Rice wrote:
For this please, where is this coming from?
Not 100% trusting of 40k Wiki or Lexicanum as both are editable by anyone.
They both have teams of man who are checking the background daily and fixing anyone edit that is not correct fluff.
I edit once something on Wikipedia, in 15 minutes they change it back - so no worry about that...
Well seeing as the Custodes are one of the most elite organizations in the IoM I would say thay they have access to everything the GK have access to and more, also they are designed and trained to operate in totally different ways, the Custodes are supposed to be body guards and to work to keep one VIP safe the GK are made to counter the threat from the warp.
In a straight army vs. army duel the Custodes would probaly win with numbers because both sides of are of equal training atleast.
In a protracted war the Custodes still would proably win since they could preform a number of different skills that the GK relie on the various assassins for.
And as far as psyker go it says in the Lexicanum "Valdor, with a contingent of elite Custodian Guard, fought alongside Russ and the Space Wolves on Prospero. He and his forces were responsible for killing at least three of the greatest psykers of the Thousand Sons and routing a force much more numerous than their own,"
im2randomghgh wrote:Alright, let's start this discussion with this: I think the GK would be completely erased With each fallen Custode having killed many, many GK.
Ok Custodes are cool and everything but they aren't psykers and don't appear to have any protection against attacks of this nature. That's why during the assault on Prosepro the Sisters of Silence were sent with them. The Grey Knights are not that much different to pre heresy Thousand Sons. The Grey Knights, if they were fully 'Warded' up would annihilate the Custodes. If it was a hand to hand battle it would still be a close run thing.
im2randomghgh wrote:The Custodes are bigger, better, and only marginally weaker than Primarchs.
No, they are supposed to be a stronger and only slightly larger than an Astartes. Abnett claims that, though Custodians are slightly larger, on average, than Space Marines, their fighting skills are more or less equal Not sure where you are getting the 'marginally weaker than Primarchs' thing from. A Primarch would break a Custodes as much as an Astartes. The strength of the Custodes is their ability to think on their own. But reading First Heretic you will also know that this is their weakness. Astartes fight together as a group.
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im2randomghgh wrote:There are 10,000 of them.
Ok, not sure where that is coming from either. They were never intended to be little more than the Emperor bodyguards or emissaries so that number seems way to big to me.
im2randomghgh wrote:Their Guardian Spears are just like the GK halberds...except they have bolters/huge lasers in the end
Grey Knights have Nemesis Force weapons and Storm Bolters. Halbreds are cool yeah, but what else do they have in their arsenal? The state of the Custodes now is more than likely different to when the Heresy was raging.
im2randomghgh wrote:They are lead by Valdor.
Are they really? Even now after 10,000 years? We don't know this.
im2randomghgh wrote:They out-number the GK 10:3
As above on the numbers, are you sure?
Hmm, doing some digging I have found a reference to 10,000 blades but this is back in 3rd ed. Need to do some more digging.
im2randomghgh wrote:They're Gold. Gold.
Whoop!
im2randomghgh wrote:They have armour that has been said by several sources to be better than any astartes PA, so it would be like artificer armour, except it is more trim, meaning that if anyone were to argue using game mechanics, they would probably have Fleet of Foot.
But then the Grey Knights armour is not your regular Astartes armour either.
im2randomghgh wrote:In The First Heretic One custodian had a full clip of bolts pumped into him, his head cut off, mounted on a pole, and was still alive, after having killed three astartes in 3 seconds.
What, alive, after his head was cut off ... impressive.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also in that book, a group of 3(?) custodians fought 11 possessed Chaos Space Marines, including a possessed chapter master, and killed 7(?)
I don't think those numbers are highly accurate either, i think it was more like 7 on 3 but will double check tonight and repost.
King Pariah wrote:Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.
Source please?
ph34r wrote:The leader of the custodes is on par with a Primarch in power.
Source for that? I would guess that the leader of the Custodes is powerful, but only on par with the standing of a Chapter Master
I would sat that both are as Elite as each other as they both serve very specific roles.
*sigh* I will do this one by one.
1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
3. This was already addressed by someone else.
4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
7. GOLD.
8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
9. Yes, it is.
10. definately 7 dead.
11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
im2randomghgh wrote:*sigh* I will do this one by one.
Yes, sigh indeed.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
Hmm, ok ... so a psyker can't use it's powers to increase it's own abilities and only fire fireballs and lightning bolts? Where is your proof that a Custodes is that much better than a Grey Knight?
im2randomghgh wrote:2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
You're quoting from the wiki again. Please, provide an actual source for this.
im2randomghgh wrote:4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
True as from the perspective of the Sabretooth game and the Visions series, which is pretty much one and the same. Other than these there has been no mention of Dreadnoughts or Speeders in the Heresy series however. Perhaps after 10,000 years of never leaving Terra they have had cut backs. We don't know the current situation of the military might and capability of the Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. There's no proof that he is alive or dead, unless you have a specific source saying he is alive? 10,000 years is an awfully long time to be alive.
im2randomghgh wrote:6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
And I haven't found an actual source for this. I'm not saying it isn't there, but both Draco and the 4th EdRB make no reference to numbers of Custodes, so I guess it is in the 3rd EdRB.
im2randomghgh wrote:8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
Ok so where does it say it's better than power armour. It's more ornate and frilly but does the same job. The early Custodes only wore trousers and a helmet and were bare chested.
im2randomghgh wrote:10. definately 7 dead.
Didn't check this one yet but will do when I have a chance.
im2randomghgh wrote:11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
Quite clearly I did yes, otherwise I wouldn't be posting at all. But their is no reference point to the sparring match between Horus and Valdor on there. So I have no further point to check. Was it in Blood Games or some other background, if you know and aren't relying on the wiki then please, provide the source and I will find out.
im2randomghgh wrote:NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
That's your opinion.
im2randomghgh wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
If an Astartes was trained to be an assassin or infiltrator then they could be able to do this too. But they are soldiers.
I see that you are as dedicated to the Custodes as you are to your Tau ...
Either way I like Grey Knights, the pre Ward ones anyway, and I like Custodes .The Custodes may or may not have 10,000 in number but I think if they were to ever get in an fight of equal numbers it would be a close run thing.
The only thing that prevents a solid Custode victory is that GK are all psykers. If Custodes are lacking in psychic defense (which I doubt, otherwise an alpha/beta level psyker would have waltzed in millenia ago) then this presents a serious disadvantage.
Two things I take issue with here:
1. Astartes and Custodes don't age. Serious?
2. Only 1000 GK I was sure that GK numbered a bit more than the average chapter. I'm also sure the Custodes had decreased in number since the Age of the Imperium (as the Emperor didn't go skipping into battle anymore).
My money's on Custodes. There's just so little that can stop them.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Not 100% trusting of 40k Wiki or Lexicanum as both are editable by anyone.
On a side note, wikipedia is found to have the same % of errors that Brittanica has (i.e. as accurate as it's going to get), so why would lexicanum be any different? It's a good source of quick information without having to read through BL books again.
If Custodes fight pyskers, as shown in A Thousand Sons, they drag some Sisters of Silence along. As for their own psyker defense, I'm sure they have something. Can't have an Alpha Plus walking into the Imperial Palace.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yep astartes don't age. I have also heard that the custodes number 10,000 and still have their pre-heresy jetbikes (Source:word of mouth)
They age like any human, but there bodies will remain strong and youthful forever, it's just on the outside.. They're functionally immortal in body but there minds are susceptible to the effects of extreme longevity.
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Azariah Kyras wrote:If Custodes fight pyskers, as shown in A Thousand Sons, they drag some Sisters of Silence along. As for their own psyker defense, I'm sure they have something. Can't have an Alpha Plus walking into the Imperial Palace.
Sisters of Silence aren't part of this, because they don't exist and because they are not Custodes. You can't assume that they have Psyker powers. There's no source to say they do, therefore in this conversation they don't. Grey Knights have amazing Psyker powers so are at an advantage. Grey Knights would win if it were 100 vs 100. They can work coherently as a team, when Custodes don't.
iproxtaco wrote:First Heretic described it, each Custode is a Lion. Unmatched in might on his own, but they will not work together. Astartes are Wolves. Weaker on his own, but together, they outmatch even the Lion.
That's actually from a 40k book? Wow. You'd think they could have managed to pick a big cat that DOESN'T hunt in packs.
iproxtaco wrote:First Heretic described it, each Custode is a Lion. Unmatched in might on his own, but they will not work together. Astartes are Wolves. Weaker on his own, but together, they outmatch even the Lion.
That's actually from a 40k book? Wow. You'd think they could have managed to pick a big cat that DOESN'T hunt in packs.
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
Okie Doke. I don't really view Horus as the "best" of the Primarchs. Best in what way?
Generally the best over-all. Where others may excel in a few specific fields, Horus was the best all rounder, and had the ambition to lead, but no the arrogance to believe himself as the best.
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
Okie Doke. I don't really view Horus as the "best" of the Primarchs. Best in what way?
Generally the best over-all. Where others may excel in a few specific fields, Horus was the best all rounder, and had the ambition to lead, but no the arrogance to believe himself as the best.
Well obviously in the end he turned out to be PRETTY DAMN ARROGANT considering he thought he could lead better than the Emperor.
Also, 100 v 100 would depend. If it was all shooting, custodes would lose, considering their guns are on-par with those of the GK but the GK can shoot and TK at the same time.
If we're talking melee, conversation is finished, go home. If you are already home, go walk your dog. If you are home and dog-less, then go jog.
Well, he was made The Warmaster because he had ambition but not the arrogance of The Lion or Rowboat Girlyman.
In the end, he fell not because he was arrogant in the first place but because he was angered by the Emperors departure, leaving him just like that to carry on the Crusade, and because he was partly deceived by the Chaos Gods.
I stand by that 1 vs 1 it would be the Custodes winning. Anywhere more than about 30 vs 30, the odds begin to swing in the Grey Knights favour, up to 100 vs 100 where I think they would definitely triumph.
iproxtaco wrote:Well, he was made The Warmaster because he had ambition but not the arrogance of The Lion or Rowboat Girlyman.
In the end, he fell not because he was arrogant in the first place but because he was angered by the Emperors departure, leaving him just like that to carry on the Crusade, and because he was partly deceived by the Chaos Gods.
I stand by that 1 vs 1 it would be the Custodes winning. Anywhere more than about 30 vs 30, the odds begin to swing in the Grey Knights favour, up to 100 vs 100 where I think they would definitely triumph.
...what about 10,000:1,000?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Also, as I already meantioned, it has been stated that Custodes are to Astartes what Astartes are to Guardsmen, and while GK ARE a cut above astartes, Custodes are only very,very slightly weaker than Primarchs. Do you think a Librarian could kill a primarch? No.
There is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH, the Custodes haven't been in active combat since then, and they are immortal. What possible way could you suspect he died? Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM.
And Custodes armour IS better. In The First Heretic, A custodes had one full bolter clip unloaded into his face at point-blank range and his armour held completely. It even stated specifically that Custodes armour, despite being ornate, is better than even artificer armour, and looks better.
Plus, it's gold.
And it wasn't early custodes that went bare-chested, it is modern ones. Something about mourning rituals for the EoM? They still have their armour though, they just choose not to don it as they prefer their black-painted chests to represent their unending grief at the death of the only human being to ever be free from sin.
im2randomghgh wrote:*sigh* I will do this one by one.
Yes, sigh indeed.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
Hmm, ok ... so a psyker can't use it's powers to increase it's own abilities and only fire fireballs and lightning bolts? Where is your proof that a Custodes is that much better than a Grey Knight?
im2randomghgh wrote:2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
You're quoting from the wiki again. Please, provide an actual source for this.
im2randomghgh wrote:4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
True as from the perspective of the Sabretooth game and the Visions series, which is pretty much one and the same. Other than these there has been no mention of Dreadnoughts or Speeders in the Heresy series however. Perhaps after 10,000 years of never leaving Terra they have had cut backs. We don't know the current situation of the military might and capability of the Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. There's no proof that he is alive or dead, unless you have a specific source saying he is alive? 10,000 years is an awfully long time to be alive.
im2randomghgh wrote:6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
And I haven't found an actual source for this. I'm not saying it isn't there, but both Draco and the 4th EdRB make no reference to numbers of Custodes, so I guess it is in the 3rd EdRB.
im2randomghgh wrote:8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
Ok so where does it say it's better than power armour. It's more ornate and frilly but does the same job. The early Custodes only wore trousers and a helmet and were bare chested.
im2randomghgh wrote:10. definately 7 dead.
Didn't check this one yet but will do when I have a chance.
im2randomghgh wrote:11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
Quite clearly I did yes, otherwise I wouldn't be posting at all. But their is no reference point to the sparring match between Horus and Valdor on there. So I have no further point to check. Was it in Blood Games or some other background, if you know and aren't relying on the wiki then please, provide the source and I will find out.
im2randomghgh wrote:NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
That's your opinion.
im2randomghgh wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
If an Astartes was trained to be an assassin or infiltrator then they could be able to do this too. But they are soldiers.
I see that you are as dedicated to the Custodes as you are to your Tau ...
Either way I like Grey Knights, the pre Ward ones anyway, and I like Custodes .The Custodes may or may not have 10,000 in number but I think if they were to ever get in an fight of equal numbers it would be a close run thing.
Sadly Pailia Rice, I have to side with Random on this.
The Custodes have always been known to be what Astrates are to guard. Custodes are to Astrates.
Custodes are the best of the best. Trained in every martial skill.
They have free will.
Rice you can't really agrue with me in that in this agruement you can't really support the grey knights as there are more custodes and they are way more powerful than the grey knights.
Sadly you have not supported the Grey Knights.
We do know there are 3,000 Custodes. As The Emperor at the head of the orkish wagh! lead an entire 1 chapter worth of custodes against the orc wagh, and it was the largest wagh, TOO DATE. 3 million green skins. And the custodes lost.... 5........ Out of 1000
Yeah The grey knights lose hundreds of their own just to kill a small ork wagh.....
The Grey knights also do not have access to Imperator and Warlord Titans....
The Custodes literally have 300,000,000 Ships at their command. And the Imperium would side with custodes in the fact they trust them more. Than the back stabbing sister killer Grey Knights.
I do agree with you preward the Grey knights would of had an awesome sparing match between them and the custodes.
Though I ask for a mend
How about a Champion of the Emperor (Custode) vs a Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion. This way its not like a debate of who is the best.
Now I shall be getting back to my other duties. Ash out.
im2randomghgh wrote:*sigh* I will do this one by one.
Yes, sigh indeed.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
Hmm, ok ... so a psyker can't use it's powers to increase it's own abilities and only fire fireballs and lightning bolts? Where is your proof that a Custodes is that much better than a Grey Knight?
im2randomghgh wrote:2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
You're quoting from the wiki again. Please, provide an actual source for this.
im2randomghgh wrote:4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
True as from the perspective of the Sabretooth game and the Visions series, which is pretty much one and the same. Other than these there has been no mention of Dreadnoughts or Speeders in the Heresy series however. Perhaps after 10,000 years of never leaving Terra they have had cut backs. We don't know the current situation of the military might and capability of the Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. There's no proof that he is alive or dead, unless you have a specific source saying he is alive? 10,000 years is an awfully long time to be alive.
im2randomghgh wrote:6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
And I haven't found an actual source for this. I'm not saying it isn't there, but both Draco and the 4th EdRB make no reference to numbers of Custodes, so I guess it is in the 3rd EdRB.
im2randomghgh wrote:8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
Ok so where does it say it's better than power armour. It's more ornate and frilly but does the same job. The early Custodes only wore trousers and a helmet and were bare chested.
im2randomghgh wrote:10. definately 7 dead.
Didn't check this one yet but will do when I have a chance.
im2randomghgh wrote:11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
Quite clearly I did yes, otherwise I wouldn't be posting at all. But their is no reference point to the sparring match between Horus and Valdor on there. So I have no further point to check. Was it in Blood Games or some other background, if you know and aren't relying on the wiki then please, provide the source and I will find out.
im2randomghgh wrote:NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
That's your opinion.
im2randomghgh wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
If an Astartes was trained to be an assassin or infiltrator then they could be able to do this too. But they are soldiers.
I see that you are as dedicated to the Custodes as you are to your Tau ...
Either way I like Grey Knights, the pre Ward ones anyway, and I like Custodes .The Custodes may or may not have 10,000 in number but I think if they were to ever get in an fight of equal numbers it would be a close run thing.
Sadly Pailia Rice, I have to side with Random on this.
The Custodes have always been known to be what Astrates are to guard. Custodes are to Astrates.
Custodes are the best of the best. Trained in every martial skill.
They have free will.
Rice you can't really agrue with me in that in this agruement you can't really support the grey knights as there are more custodes and they are way more powerful than the grey knights.
Sadly you have not supported the Grey Knights.
We do know there are 3,000 Custodes. As The Emperor at the head of the orkish wagh! lead an entire 1 chapter worth of custodes against the orc wagh, and it was the largest wagh, TOO DATE. 3 million green skins. And the custodes lost.... 5........ Out of 1000
Yeah The grey knights lose hundreds of their own just to kill a small ork wagh.....
The Grey knights also do not have access to Imperator and Warlord Titans....
The Custodes literally have 300,000,000 Ships at their command. And the Imperium would side with custodes in the fact they trust them more. Than the back stabbing sister killer Grey Knights.
I do agree with you preward the Grey knights would of had an awesome sparing match between them and the custodes.
Though I ask for a mend
How about a Champion of the Emperor (Custode) vs a Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion. This way its not like a debate of who is the best.
Now I shall be getting back to my other duties. Ash out.
+1 for agreeing.
The one thing I disagree with is that there aren't 3,000 Custodes, there are definately 10,000. 3,000 USED to be the GK numbers, but now they're chapter-strength.
iproxtaco wrote:Well, he was made The Warmaster because he had ambition but not the arrogance of The Lion or Rowboat Girlyman.
In the end, he fell not because he was arrogant in the first place but because he was angered by the Emperors departure, leaving him just like that to carry on the Crusade, and because he was partly deceived by the Chaos Gods.
I stand by that 1 vs 1 it would be the Custodes winning. Anywhere more than about 30 vs 30, the odds begin to swing in the Grey Knights favour, up to 100 vs 100 where I think they would definitely triumph.
...what about 10,000:1,000?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Also, as I already meantioned, it has been stated that Custodes are to Astartes what Astartes are to Guardsmen, and while GK ARE a cut above astartes, Custodes are only very,very slightly weaker than Primarchs. Do you think a Librarian could kill a primarch? No.
There is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH, the Custodes haven't been in active combat since then, and they are immortal. What possible way could you suspect he died? Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM.
And Custodes armour IS better. In The First Heretic, A custodes had one full bolter clip unloaded into his face at point-blank range and his armour held completely. It even stated specifically that Custodes armour, despite being ornate, is better than even artificer armour, and looks better.
Plus, it's gold.
And it wasn't early custodes that went bare-chested, it is modern ones. Something about mourning rituals for the EoM? They still have their armour though, they just choose not to don it as they prefer their black-painted chests to represent their unending grief at the death of the only human being to ever be free from sin.
Well 10000:1000 obviously the Custodes would win but I'm talking about an equal force.
Where is it stated that Custodes are only very slightly weaker than the Primachs? The entire Idea is ludicrous.
I don't suspect Valdor died. I only just looked into Valdor and since no evidence is given to even suggest his death then I agree with you but the point is still open. He DUELLED Horus. One on one with swords. He is obviously a lot more skilled with the blade than a Primarch, that doesn't mean he is more powerful in general. We need a source for this.
Page number? I'm checking this out. For now I still think Custode armour is just Artificer so equal to or only slightly better than Grey Knights Aegis.
Again, source please.
Well on the point of experience, the Grey Knights are superior. Just less than 10,000 years of constant battle against the worst enemies the galaxy can throw a them, compared to 10,000 years or more of constant training but little else.
Why have the poll if you all ready knew the answer?
I've never heard any official source state that Custodes are to Astartes as Astartes are to IG, if anyone could provide a source that'd be good.
Even so, it would realistically need to be a source NEWER than the more recent HH novels, such as the 1st Heretic and the two TS novels which describe how Custodes are superior to an astartes, but not to the extent people are describing.
Whilst Valdor may have defeated Horus in a sparring duel, doesn't mean the rest of the custodes are similar in level to Primarchs. Valdor is an exceptional character and Custodian, it's like saying because Calgar defeated an Avatar, any Ultramarine can.
Custodian's are on a similar physical level to an Astartes, but possess a 'purer' Geneseed/creation process, which allows them to be physically (marginally) superior to an astartes, whilst they are better equipped and trained. A fight between an astartes and custodes is not a sure-fire win for the custodes; they have greater odds, but Astartes and Custodes are a lot more similar than many people seem to be saying.
I do think the Custodes would defeat the Grey Knights, but I still think many people are misrepresenting both Astartes and Custodes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:Where is it stated that Custodes are only very slightly weaker than the Primachs?
It's not.
I don't suspect Valdor died. I only just looked into Valdor and since no evidence is given to even suggest his death then I agree with you but the point is still open. He DUELLED Horus. One on one with swords. He is obviously a lot more skilled with the blade than a Primarch, that doesn't mean he is more powerful in general. We need a source for this.
Exactly, a duel of arms is very different to an outright fight. Valdor could still have likely defeated Horus, however Horus is physically superior and the source seems to suggest Valdor only defeated him the once. How many times they duelled is unknown however. As for Valdors fate, it's simply unknown and to say that "there is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH" is ridiculous. You (random) have no evidence for this and Valdor's fate is very much unknown. Primarchs died during the HH, the Emperor was near-killed and you think Valdor dying would be in"conceivable"?! As for the immortality; like the Primarchs and Space Marines, it's unknown. It's suggested that they don't die of old age, but it's simply unknown as they typically fall in combat first.
Page number? I'm checking this out. For now I still think Custode armour is just Artificer so equal to or only slightly better than Grey Knights Aegis.
Spoiler:
His armour didn't hold completely in First Heretic IIRC
I too think Custodes armour is more on-par to artificer than superior to it.
During First Heretic, Argel Tal and his squad observe from afar, their accompanying Custode ofrce fighing on Forty-Seven Sixteen. "They're not brothers," Argel Tal said. "Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They're not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers." The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain's mind. "Lions," the sergeant said. "They're lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold," he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, "not grey."
Pretty big flaw fighting against the Grey Knights. Read pages 126-128 in The First Heretic for the rest.
Each individual Custode is a better warrior than a single Grey Knight. Put 100 Custodes against a force of 100 Grey Knights, the Grey Knights would work together, use their Psyker abilities, and would win.
tarnish wrote:dont be so sure. the gk have an impressive arsenal of nasty that the custodes would have a hard time matching. im sure they have their tricks too, but the gk are all psykers which counts in the long run. Are they meeting up in the field or is this a siege battle? one on one i think a custodes would prevail, but it would be a close one. Custodes are not that big mate. not compared to a marine anyway.
They kind of are. A custode is to an Astartes what and Astartes is to a guardsman. Valdor, physically the same as every other custode, beat horus in a one-on-one fight.
Where are you getting that from? I was under the impression they were of a comparable size. Im sure *some* Custodes might be taller or shorter than *some* Astartes, but for them to have a difference in stature comparable to the difference between a marine & a guardsman is pretty ludicrous. You're talking Primarch size, and even then, not every Primarch was 10+ feet tall; Alpharius was able to pass for a normal marine when wearing full armour. I can't recall any Horus Heresy fluff that describes Custodes as being significantly taller or 'bigger' than Astartes.
somecallmeJack wrote:Where are you getting that from? I was under the impression they were of a comparable size. Im sure *some* Custodes might be taller or shorter than *some* Astartes, but for them to have a difference in stature comparable to the difference between a marine & a guardsman is pretty ludicrous. You're talking Primarch size, and even then, not every Primarch was 10+ feet tall; Alpharius was able to pass for a normal marine when wearing full armour. I can't recall any Horus Heresy fluff that describes Custodes as being significantly taller or 'bigger' than Astartes.
No there isn't, they say - like you have - that they are only marginally (if at all) physically superior to an astartes. Whilst the 40K background does require certain amounts of interpretation, AFAIK he's pulling that statistic out of his proverbial buttocks.
Btw, IIRC Alpharius is moderately larger than the average Space Marine. Whilst not the size of most other Primarchs, it was only Omegon or larger-than-normal Space Marines that stood in for him...
iproxtaco wrote:It harkens back to the point a made earlier -
Spoiler:
During First Heretic, Argel Tal and his squad observe from afar, their accompanying Custode ofrce fighing on Forty-Seven Sixteen.
"They're not brothers," Argel Tal said. "Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They're not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers."
The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain's mind.
"Lions," the sergeant said. "They're lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold," he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, "not grey."
Pretty big flaw fighting against the Grey Knights.
Read pages 126-128 in The First Heretic for the rest.
Each individual Custode is a better warrior than a single Grey Knight. Put 100 Custodes against a force of 100 Grey Knights, the Grey Knights would work together, use their Psyker abilities, and would win.
No. A pack of wolves can take down a lion, but that doesn't help you if the lions are even to the wolves in terms of numbers, and it REALLY doesn't help when they out number you 10:1.
And yes, custodes battle-armour IS superior to artificer, as it allows freer movement and greater speed while offering the same protection as the best armour space marines are physically capable of possessing.
iproxtaco wrote:It harkens back to the point a made earlier -
Spoiler:
During First Heretic, Argel Tal and his squad observe from afar, their accompanying Custode ofrce fighing on Forty-Seven Sixteen.
"They're not brothers," Argel Tal said. "Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They're not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers."
The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain's mind.
"Lions," the sergeant said. "They're lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold," he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, "not grey."
Pretty big flaw fighting against the Grey Knights.
Read pages 126-128 in The First Heretic for the rest.
Each individual Custode is a better warrior than a single Grey Knight. Put 100 Custodes against a force of 100 Grey Knights, the Grey Knights would work together, use their Psyker abilities, and would win.
No. A pack of wolves can take down a lion, but that doesn't help you if the lions are even to the wolves in terms of numbers, and it REALLY doesn't help when they out number you 10:1.
And yes, custodes battle-armour IS superior to artificer, as it allows freer movement and greater speed while offering the same protection as the best armour space marines are physically capable of possessing.
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
No, he wasn't. Horus himself said something along the lines of: Sanguinius, Roboute Guilliman, and Rogal Dorn would have been as good/better warmasters, but I know da emprah da most hahaha.
Obviously with better grammar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
If they're force weapons it means either
A. Custodes are latent psykers
B The Emperor's presence powers their blades (unlikely since the custodes used to fight half the galaxy away from the emperor on occasions)
or
C. Being in the Emperor's presence for extended periods of time made them psychichally conductive.
...
or
D. Someone confused their terms (unlikely due to wiki mods that check all edited articles)
Btw, IIRC Alpharius is moderately larger than the average Space Marine. Whilst not the size of most other Primarchs, it was only Omegon or larger-than-normal Space Marines that stood in for him...
Ah of course, my mistake. Still, point about him not being massive stands.
Btw, IIRC Alpharius is moderately larger than the average Space Marine. Whilst not the size of most other Primarchs, it was only Omegon or larger-than-normal Space Marines that stood in for him...
Ah of course, my mistake. Still, point about him not being massive stands.
I think that'd be funny. An Alpha Legion raid against ultras, then Pasanius ends up fighting Alpharius, and looks down at him
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
On the wiki it said they were FW. But yeah, they are probably still power-weapons, because although they COULD be latent, and it actually makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it said elsewhere that they are force weapons.
And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
On the wiki it said they were FW. But yeah, they are probably still power-weapons, because although they COULD be latent, and it actually makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it said elsewhere that they are force weapons.
And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
I disagree. I think 'barely inferior to a Primarch' is a massive overstatement of their abilities. I know theres the whole thing about Valdor beating Horus in a sparring match, I haven't actually read the story, so I could be completely wrong, but is it not conceivable that Horus wasnt actually fighting to his full potential, what with it being a non serious sparring session against an ally he knew to be his inferior in combat?
And even if thats not the case, just because Constantin Valdor, (who was exceptional) beat a Primarch in a sparring bout, that doesnt mean, or even imply that every Custode is 'barely inferior' to a Primarch.
There is a legion of 10000 Custodes. If creating beings who are 'Barely Inferior' to the superhuman Primarchs is easy enough that the Emperor created a legion of ten thousand of them, why aren't regular Astartes made to be 'Barely inferior to Primarchs'? It makes no sense for Custodes to be so powerful.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
On the wiki it said they were FW. But yeah, they are probably still power-weapons, because although they COULD be latent, and it actually makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it said elsewhere that they are force weapons.
And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
I disagree. I think 'barely inferior to a Primarch' is a massive overstatement of their abilities. I know theres the whole thing about Valdor beating Horus in a sparring match, I haven't actually read the story, so I could be completely wrong, but is it not conceivable that Horus wasnt actually fighting to his full potential, what with it being a non serious sparring session against an ally he knew to be his inferior in combat?
And even if thats not the case, just because Constantin Valdor, (who was exceptional) beat a Primarch in a sparring bout, that doesnt mean, or even imply that every Custode is 'barely inferior' to a Primarch.
There is a legion of 10000 Custodes. If creating beings who are 'Barely Inferior' to the superhuman Primarchs is easy enough that the Emperor created a legion of ten thousand of them, why aren't regular Astartes made to be 'Barely inferior to Primarchs'? It makes no sense for Custodes to be so powerful.
Because the creation process for custodes is unfathomably time-consuming, complex, and, since the Emperor doesn't actually DO anything anymore, unnecessary.
Imo, the Grey are the most Elite. The Adeptus Custodes wheere aparently made from the seed of the Emperor, the primarchs were also made from the genetic material of the Emperor. The Primarchs fell, and were not incorruptable, who is to say that the Custodes aren't aswell? The Grey Knights on the other are completely incorruptable, as incorruptable as the Emperor himself.
It's implied, or even stated that the Custodes 'legion's Primarch is the Emperor. The Grey Knights Geneseed is the most pure of all Astartes and couldn't have come from anywhere else but the Emperor. Both are basically 'sons' of the Emperor, its just that The Custode creation process is more extensive and precise, creating an individual rather than the Grey Knights relative 'batch' process.
iproxtaco wrote:It's implied, or even stated that the Custodes 'legion's Primarch is the Emperor. The Grey Knights Geneseed is the most pure of all Astartes and couldn't have come from anywhere else but the Emperor. Both are basically 'sons' of the Emperor, its just that The Custode creation process is more extensive and precise, creating an individual rather than the Grey Knights relative 'batch' process.
Well there WAS that theory that GK gene-seed is made from a genetic cocktail...I believe it more actually.
Also, if anything, custodes are even more incorruptible than GK. When Alaric had the collar of Khorne, he came so close to corruption, he relied upon his psychic shield and that is how GK remain pure.
Custodes do so through pure mental discipline and faith (more than GK even) in the Emperor. If you clamp a collar of Khorne on them, it doesn't matter, still incorruptible. If you do so to a GK, than he is no more resistant than a regular astartes.
Custodes have more of the Emperor's gene in them than any others (barring the Primarchs and, of course, the EoM), which is why they are more perfect than the Emperor. Astartes are poor shadows of Custodes.
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Just Dave wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
How can you still think that when you have no evidence, quite the opposite in-fact?!
Did you even read the link to the wiki page I posted? It stated plainly that they are only marginally less Chuck Norris than a primarch.
winnertakesall wrote:Imo, the Grey are the most Elite. The Adeptus Custodes wheere aparently made from the seed of the Emperor, the primarchs were also made from the genetic material of the Emperor. The Primarchs fell, and were not incorruptable, who is to say that the Custodes aren't aswell? The Grey Knights on the other are completely incorruptable, as incorruptable as the Emperor himself.
On the primarch thing, exactly, the Primarchs are not incorruptible, and the Astartes are lesser versions of the primarchs.
The custodes are closer than anyone to the Emperor (both biologically and literally) and know no duty other than service to the emperor. The Primarchs also had duty to their legion, and when loyalty is divided, you aren't truly loyal to either. Half were loyal to one, half to the other.
iproxtaco wrote:It's implied, or even stated that the Custodes 'legion's Primarch is the Emperor. The Grey Knights Geneseed is the most pure of all Astartes and couldn't have come from anywhere else but the Emperor. Both are basically 'sons' of the Emperor, its just that The Custode creation process is more extensive and precise, creating an individual rather than the Grey Knights relative 'batch' process.
Well there WAS that theory that GK gene-seed is made from a genetic cocktail...I believe it more actually.
Also, if anything, custodes are even more incorruptible than GK. When Alaric had the collar of Khorne, he came so close to corruption, he relied upon his psychic shield and that is how GK remain pure.
Custodes do so through pure mental discipline and faith (more than GK even) in the Emperor. If you clamp a collar of Khorne on them, it doesn't matter, still incorruptible. If you do so to a GK, than he is no more resistant than a regular astartes.
Custodes have more of the Emperor's gene in them than any others (barring the Primarchs and, of course, the EoM), which is why they are more perfect than the Emperor. Astartes are poor shadows of Custodes.
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Just Dave wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
How can you still think that when you have no evidence, quite the opposite in-fact?!
Did you even read the link to the wiki page I posted? It stated plainly that they are only marginally less Chuck Norris than a primarch.
Yes, I just used Chuck Norris as an adjective.
You're relying on a wiki page? A wiki page whose sources predate the newer material which mentions nothing of the kind.
The Horus Heresy series describes how custodians are only marginally superior to an astartes. The First Heretic describes how it wouldn't be wise to make bets on a combat between a custodian and astartes, because they are so closely matched.
The custodians have superior equipment, however they are less experienced than the astartes (who get real, 1st hand training/experience), they are only marginally larger and stronger and are only marginally superior to the 'average' astartes. The HH series explicitly says so. They are NEVER describes as being marginally inferior to a Primarch. The wiki you link me to says "It has been said" - along with having outdated sources - displaying its inaccuracy. The HH series however provides solid evidence of the custodes being much more in-line to an astartes than a primarch.
If the custodes are nearly as powerful as you describe then there would never have been a HH; if they are as powerful as you say then the 10,000 custodes could've defeated Horus' rebellion in themselves. This isn't the case however; they are not nearly equal to a primarch, no matter how 'Chuck Norris' () you claim them to be. There's no evidence for your claims.
If you could please provide a source where it states that the custodes are incorruptible and have more of the Emperor's geneseed in them than any other, that'd be great too. As it stands however, unlike the Grey Knights who've been able to PROVE that they are - so far - incorruptible, there is no EVIDENCE for this in the custodes, nor is their creation process and affiliation to the Emperor known.
Imma gonna go with the Custodes at the height of their power, but better than primarchs? i think not. Just because Valdor beat a primarch once does not mean that every single custodes can. After all Valdor was the leader (or something)
But I personally dont think they are immortal, I think they died off along time ago. I think now its more of a home alone job with cutouts of custodes on a railroad track going round and round the palace.
Random, everything you say is either just something you think, or backed up by outdated sources. The Custodes are on par or marginally better physically than a Grey Knight, with equal or marginally better armour and inferior weaponry and experience.
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Toastedandy wrote:Imma gonna go with the Custodes at the height of their power, but better than primarchs? i think not. Just because Valdor beat a primarch once does not mean that every single custodes can. After all Valdor was the leader (or something) But I personally dont think they are immortal, I think they died off along time ago. I think now its more of a home alone job with cutouts of custodes on a railroad track going round and round the palace.
With BB guns rigged to fire through the dog door and trip wires to send a comical boxing glove punch you out a window.
iproxtaco wrote:Random, everything you say is either just something you think, or backed up by outdated sources. The Custodes are on par or marginally better physically than a Grey Knight, with equal or marginally better armour and inferior weaponry and experience.
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Toastedandy wrote:Imma gonna go with the Custodes at the height of their power, but better than primarchs? i think not. Just because Valdor beat a primarch once does not mean that every single custodes can. After all Valdor was the leader (or something)
But I personally dont think they are immortal, I think they died off along time ago. I think now its more of a home alone job with cutouts of custodes on a railroad track going round and round the palace.
With BB guns rigged to fire through the dog door and trip wires to send a comical boxing glove punch you out a window.
I hate to be the jerk, but debating over Fiction is quite hilarious. Personally, I say we ask Matt Ward to make the Custodes their own codex just to see what the almighty has to say about this. But if we look at the game currently, and before you ask me for the source I'm gonna say hunt it down yourself because I've been working heavy machinery all day and am too exhausted, if you try playing Custodes, you're apparently supposed to use the Grey Knights as a basis for them which I think would more or less imply that they are fairly close to equal in strength. Though one (the Custodes in my opinion because Constantin Valdor is such a badass) may be at least marginally stronger than the other. King Pariah out.
King Pariah wrote:I hate to be the jerk, but debating over Fiction is quite hilarious. Personally, I say we ask Matt Ward to make the Custodes their own codex just to see what the almighty has to say about this. But if we look at the game currently, and before you ask me for the source I'm gonna say hunt it down yourself because I've been working heavy machinery all day and am too exhausted, if you try playing Custodes, you're apparently supposed to use the Grey Knights as a basis for them which I think would more or less imply that they are fairly close to equal in strength. Though one (the Custodes in my opinion because Constantin Valdor is such a badass) may be at least marginally stronger than the other. King Pariah out.
If Matt Ward wrote the codex, each custode would be on par with the EoM.
Assuming the OP's question was "who is more elite?", then the answer is the Custodes, hands-down. Being part of the elite guard of the God and Holy Land of the IoM is no small matter, and no matter how incorruptible you are, daemon-hunting is no where near the same level as the Custodes in the hierarchy as the elite of the elite.
On the other hand, if the question is "are they better in a fight?", which is what the OP's beginning statement seems to be going for, then it depends whether we are using current Custodes or Pre-Heresy. Pre-Heresy, they had the best equipment, including Dreadnoughts and Terminator armor, and the GK equipment was influenced by theirs. Now though, apparently they abandoned their armour, so that combined with their individual organization could mean their doom...
...That is until you realize a single Custodes can take down 10 normal SM on his own and all-together they out-number the GK 10:1.
Elector wrote:Assuming the OP's question was "who is more elite?", then the answer is the Custodes, hands-down. Being part of the elite guard of the God and Holy Land of the IoM is no small matter, and no matter how incorruptible you are, daemon-hunting is no where near the same level as the Custodes in the hierarchy as the elite of the elite.
On the other hand, if the question is "are they better in a fight?", which is what the OP's beginning statement seems to be going for, then it depends whether we are using current Custodes or Pre-Heresy. Pre-Heresy, they had the best equipment, including Dreadnoughts and Terminator armor, and the GK equipment was influenced by theirs. Now though, apparently they abandoned their armour, so that combined with their individual organization could mean their doom...
...That is until you realize a single Custodes can take down 10 normal SM on his own and all-together they out-number the GK 10:1.
They still have their equipment, they just don't wear it for ceremony's sake. If the Emperor were in danger, they'd be wearing gold within the hour.
Okay, fair enough, then I'd have to say they'd win. Just find the image of two Custodes Terminators walking through a concrete wall, weapons firing away, and you'll agree.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yep astartes don't age.
I have also heard that the custodes number 10,000 and still have their pre-heresy jetbikes (Source:word of mouth)
They age like any human, but there bodies will remain strong and youthful forever, it's just on the outside.. They're functionally immortal in body but there minds are susceptible to the effects of extreme longevity.
Excluding any warp travel dickery and dreadnoughts, The Blood Angels chapter master Dante is considered to be the oldest Space Marine alive. At 1000 years old he is considered positively ancient.
And the head chaplain of the Ultramarines is considered very old at around 500.
Astartes live much longer than humans, even with rejuvenant drugs, sure. But they are by no means immortal.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yep astartes don't age.
I have also heard that the custodes number 10,000 and still have their pre-heresy jetbikes (Source:word of mouth)
They age like any human, but there bodies will remain strong and youthful forever, it's just on the outside.. They're functionally immortal in body but there minds are susceptible to the effects of extreme longevity.
Excluding any warp travel dickery and dreadnoughts, The Blood Angels chapter master Dante is considered to be the oldest Space Marine alive. At 1000 years old he is considered positively ancient.
And the head chaplain of the Ultramarines is considered very old at around 500.
Astartes live much longer than humans, even with rejuvenant drugs, sure. But they are by no means immortal.
Actually, I am pretty sure Darnath Lysander is older than dante...
And, in Salamanders, there was an astartes from the Heresy who was still alive, not chaos, not dread, not stuck in the warp, just kinda sittin`there.
Asherian Command wrote:
Sadly you have not supported the Grey Knights.
This isn't my intention. Currently I am disproving the notion that Custodes are a bazzailion times better than astartes. Which isn't the case.
Asherian Command wrote:As The Emperor at the head of the orkish wagh! lead an entire 1 chapter worth of custodes against the orc wagh, and it was the largest wagh, TOO DATE. 3 million green skins. And the custodes lost.... 5........ Out of 1000
Where is this information taken from please? Did the Emperor also sit back and let the Custodes do all the fighting? From After Deshea we know that the Emperor is an absolute monster in battle, the guy can also make an entire Legion bow before him. I'm not surprised that the Custodes only lost 5 guys if he was there, if this is a true story. The Emperor could simply blow up a million Orks with his Hex Rays
Asherian Command wrote:The Grey knights also do not have access to Imperator and Warlord Titans....
If the Inquisition required the usage of titans then the Grey Knights would be able to fight along side these. The Warhound Titans guarding the Eternity Gate still belong to the Mechanicum.
Asherian Command wrote:The Custodes literally have 300,000,000 Ships at their command. And the Imperium would side with custodes in the fact they trust them more. Than the back stabbing sister killer Grey Knights.
The problem is the current day Custodes never leave Terra.
Just Dave wrote:
I've never heard any official source state that Custodes are to Astartes as Astartes are to IG, if anyone could provide a source that'd be good.
Agreed
Just Dave wrote:I do think the Custodes would defeat the Grey Knights, but I still think many people are misrepresenting both Astartes and Custodes.
This is basically what I am saying, that a fight between a Custodes and an Astartes, regular or Grey Knight, is not as clean cut as some are saying. Even the Blood Games backs up the fact of this. The idea that a Custodes is close to a Primarch is a huge exaggeration.
Just Dave wrote:Whilst Valdor may have defeated Horus in a sparring duel, doesn't mean the rest of the custodes are similar in level to Primarchs. Valdor is an exceptional character and Custodian, it's like saying because Calgar defeated an Avatar, any Ultramarine can.
Just Dave wrote:Exactly, a duel of arms is very different to an outright fight. Valdor could still have likely defeated Horus, however Horus is physically superior and the source seems to suggest Valdor only defeated him the once. How many times they duelled is unknown however.
What is this source? I can't find it and I've asked for it but no one has come forth with the information... Dave, if you please!
Just Dave wrote:As for Valdors fate, it's simply unknown and to say that "there is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH" is ridiculous. You (random) have no evidence for this and Valdor's fate is very much unknown
Thank you, my point exactly.
Just Dave wrote:I too think Custodes armour is more on-par to artificer than superior to it.
First Heretic mentions that Custodes Armour is a step up from Power armour - is it in reference to the power armour of the time. I would assume so. If the Custodes armour has not changed since the Heresy then it will be inferior as the Astartes armour has progressed since then.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:okie doke
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
No, he wasn't. Horus himself said something along the lines of: Sanguinius, Roboute Guilliman, and Rogal Dorn would have been as good/better warmasters, but I know da emprah da most hahaha.
But the truth of the matter is the Emperor chose Horus to be Warmaster. Not because he was his favorite son but because he believed him to be the best and most suited of all the Primarchs to lead his armies. We all know how that turned out, but he still chose Horus. The Emperor doesn't do things on a popularity contest, he does things to get things done.
To try and clear up a few things. The traditional uniform of the Custodes is boots, leather breeches, tall brazen helmets (with protective, likely a field generator, and communication gear), bare chests, and long black cloaks. (Note the cloaks were red prior to the Emperor being put on the golden throne, which was also when they abandoned their armor.) However originally, they were equipped with the best power armour (this would be artificer armor, which is gold colored... like the armor of the Primarchs) of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions.
The equipment of the Custodes actually is what they based the Grey Knights armor/gear, for a large part, off of. (though they expanded and specialized the gear to a great deal, which is why not all Grey Knight armor is artificer.) So if the Custodes have time to gear up in their old gear and weapons they had prior to the Heresy... they will be better equiped. (Even including the specialized gear the Grey Knights have... as the Custodes have all the best gear from the age prior to the Heresy.) But if the Custodes are just wearing/using what they normally have... they are at a disadvantage gear wise.
Note every source I have seen just says the Custodes were the first modified warriors the Emperor made... NOT that he used his gene-seed directly with them like he did the Primarchs. (The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines. This actually indicates he may have started creating them prior to the Primarchs) And the proccess is individual for each Custodian made. Frankly they fact that they are each made individually, they were possibly created prior to the Primarchs, and they were never intended to be his army is very interesting. (Their individualism, additional training, and skill at politics and society games... seems to indicate a role of hero/noble/assassin than any part of a military.)
Grey Knights on the other hand were created using the purest gene-seed (possibly of the Emperor himself, though not confirmed). So their creation method is the faster batch method of the Astartes, though the gene-seed is pure.
The Custodes are listed as being slightly larger and stronger than a normal space marine. (Not on par with a Primarch, save a referrence to one Custodian beating Horus in a sparring match. Funny thing is, there are normal space marines that have beaten their Primarchs in sparring matches also per the fluff from the various codexes over the last decade or so.)
By the definition of elite the Custodes are most definately the most elite, as each is hand picked and goes through a custom proccess for them specifically to become one of the most beloved and respected guardians of the most Holy of worlds and the Emperor himself. They are also better equiped if they know prior to get their old gear out of retirement, and choose to do so. The Custodes are trained in a much wider variety of skills and talents than any Grey Knight. They also think as individuals vs. as a group... now this actually can be both a good and a bad thing. As an individual they can choose to stalk and assassinate a target, or use their skills with people to turn an entire city against them... but in a straight out fight, they will need to rely on their armor and weapons (which are superior) vs. working together to concentrate fire and take out targets as a group.
In the end the Custodes will most likely win in an even battle virtually everytime (remember luck and chance always have a part). But the larger the battle that is even on both sides the greater their losses percentage wise.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:My questions is; why don't all the Grey KNights try and clear ou the webway tunnel beneath the golden throne?
Because they can't clear it out. It's a permanent opening to the Warp, which is only kept closed by The Emperor. If he lowers his shield in any way, Daemons will pour through forever, the Grey Knights don't have the time, the resources, the ability or the need to fight the literally endless horde of Warp Spawn. There's also no need as The Emperor protects it. Also the risk. Why would they go in, only to be over-run and have the Chaos Gods conquer and destroy Terra, snuffing the Astronomican, killing the leaders of The Imperium and The Emperor.
Ok so I have also read back through First Heretic and can now comment here.
Spoiler:
On point 9 You saying that he had is head cut off is incorrect. Argel Tal throws his Crimson Sword into his mouth, smashing his teeth, which he survives much to Argel Tals surprise.
Point 10 you say 7 dead, I only make it 3 out of 8. Admittedly they are possessed, but they also do not appear to attack in unison. I think that would have the Custodes dead very quickly. Nirallus slays Malnor. Aquillon slays Sicar, who is feeding on Nirallus, and Sythron kills Xaphen. Argel Tal mentions that after the deaths of Malnor and Sicar there are 6 remaining Gal Vorbak.
Vendatha, manages to kill 3 on his own, but also has surprise on his hand as
Spoiler:
First Heretic p253
Lorgar was at ease ... he actually expected his offer of truce to hold some weight
If he had wanted Vendatha dead before killing anyone he would've just said shoot.
sekerra wrote:
Not every source I have seen just says the Custodes were the first modified warriors the Emperor made... NOT that he used his gene-seed directly with them like he did the Primarchs. (The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines. This actually indicates he may have started creating them prior to the Primarchs) And the proccess is individual for each Custodian made. Frankly they fact that they are each made individually, they were possibly created prior to the Primarchs, and they were never intended to be his army is very interesting. (Their individualism, additional training, and skill at politics and society games... seems to indicate a role of hero/noble/assassin than any part of a military.)
Wouldn't the first modified warriors be the Thunder Warriors, the Proto Astartes, and the Custodes formed between these and the Primarchs?
Spoiler:
I was wondering, as have seen a few references to this, do the Custodes even have Geneseed? Reading p474 - 475 in First Heretic makes me question if they do.
Edit: Added spoiler tags. A thousand pardons Toastedandy
sekerra wrote:
Not every source I have seen just says the Custodes were the first modified warriors the Emperor made... NOT that he used his gene-seed directly with them like he did the Primarchs. (The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines. This actually indicates he may have started creating them prior to the Primarchs) And the proccess is individual for each Custodian made. Frankly they fact that they are each made individually, they were possibly created prior to the Primarchs, and they were never intended to be his army is very interesting. (Their individualism, additional training, and skill at politics and society games... seems to indicate a role of hero/noble/assassin than any part of a military.)
Wouldn't the first modified warriors be the Thunder Warriors, the Proto Astartes, and the Custodes formed between these and the Primarchs?
I was wondering, as have seen a few references to this, do the Custodes even have Geneseed? Reading p474 - 475 in First Heretic makes me question if they do.
That was what I was looking at, I have not seen any referrences of them having gene-seeds like the Primarchs (and the Astarte that were formed from the remaining geneseed after the Primarchs were taken). They are individually modified warriors from what I have read.
And actually the first genetic engineered warriors he used were the Geno Five-Two Chiliad, an imperial guard legion that used genetic engineering to make their warriors stronger (and have a weak psychic link between their female commanders and their "children")... which is thought to be where the Emperor got his idea towards making his Primarch. However the lore says the first genetic warriors he made were the Custodes... which would mean he watched the Geno Five-Two Chiliad's techniques, used them to make the Custodes individually, and in turn took what he learned to combine to make the Primarchs and later the space marines.
sekerra wrote:
And actually the first genetic engineered warriors he used were the Geno Five-Two Chiliad, an imperial guard legion that used genetic engineering to make their warriors stronger (and have a weak psychic link between their female commanders and their "children")... which is thought to be where the Emperor got his idea towards making his Primarch. However the lore says the first genetic warriors he made were the Custodes... which would mean he watched the Geno Five-Two Chiliad's techniques, used them to make the Custodes individually, and in turn took what he learned to combine to make the Primarchs and later the space marines.
But are we talking Emperor modified? The Geno were possibly one of the first but were they modified by the Emperors geneticists?
I still think that the Thunder Warriors were the first to come before the Custodes and Astartes, being the further away from humans. I am sure that genetic modifications were being done before even the Geno were created.
They are in the Last Church so i'll have a look at that to refresh, but there is no mention of Custodes in that and the Emperor has body guards with him then.
Come across some information in regards to the Age of Apostasy and at the time in M36 the Captain General of the Custodes was Excelsor.
Pilau Rice wrote:
On point 9 You saying that he had is head cut off is incorrect. Argel Tal throws his Crimson Sword into his mouth, smashing his teeth, which he survives much to Argel Tals surprise.
Point 10 you say 7 dead, I only make it 3 out of 8. Admittedly they are possessed, but they also do not appear to attack in unison. I think that would have the Custodes dead very quickly. Nirallus slays Malnor. Aquillon slays Sicar, who is feeding on Nirallus, and Sythron kills Xaphen. Argel Tal mentions that after the deaths of Malnor and Sicar there are 6 remaining Gal Vorbak.
Vendatha, manages to kill 3 on his own, but also has surprise on his hand as
If he had wanted Vendatha dead before killing anyone he would've just said shoot.
I was wondering, as have seen a few references to this, do the Custodes even have Geneseed? Reading p474 - 475 in First Heretic makes me question if they do.
Eh yeah spoiler tags exist for a reason?! I just bought the book today!!!!!!!!
So they're less elite because they guard The Emperor?
Sounds awesome!
Sigged!
) you claim them to be. There's no evidence for your claims.
