I've been reading the posts here lately and I just want to air a thought out. Im sure this has been said one way or another but this is my take on it.
GW will always have the players by the cojones
by the berry bush
by the saggy and wrinkly
before you flame the heck out of me hear me out:
With all the stuff that GW has been perpetrating on the fanbase for years I've heard a lot of people say that theyre going to do the right thing and "vote with their wallets!"
Yay! Good on ya mate!
"we will only buy second hand or from third party suppliers!"
Wait...what?
The logic behind this thinking is that people who dont buy directly from GW will not be feeding money to the all devouring machine and thus weaken it and hopefully weaken enough to knock it back to sensibility. What they fail to think about though is where those suppliers and second hand sellers are getting their stuff from. Do these 3rd party suppliers have an endless supply of GW stuff that they grow from trees?
Right.
No matter where you buy your stuff from, GW will always have money coming in as long as people play the game. GW's game 40k is so deeply rooted that GW really isnt in danger of losing any of the number of players that keep its dark heart pumping. What we see here is GW just trying to grab MORE. You can try killing its hydra heads like the embargo but as long as you feed the hungry monster one way or another you aint doing squat.
its like getting mad when a hydra head snaps at us but we turn and throw another steak down the gaping maw.
So what WILL affect GW so much that theyll have to pay attention to what the fans need?
The answer is the simplest yet the hardest thing to do.
Stop playing.
...and ive lost most of you haven't I? To hurt GW significally you have to stop promoting the game, stop playing the game, stop carrying the game. Stop being the advertisement for the game. When someone asks you what youre playing say "Ex Illis" or something.
But the thing is, no one wants to do that at all. "I've invested so much in the game"... "40k is still a darn good game"...
Things will get worse from here. They will do doucheier things. They will push as much as they can. And when the fans are at their limit, when the fans can't take no more, when GW sees that the hydra body is getting thin...they'll lift the embargo or release a new edition. And the fans will be thankful.
and thats why GW will always have you by the balzac.
What you've said is true. Most people who complain won't completely drop GW so they don't really care.
However people are leaving. Not many but each time they do it more people quit and less newcomers will start. Eventually they will get to the stage when people can't afford to start and that is what gives GW its money.
People can boycott GW without stopping playing. Once i've finished my last army that will be it for me, but I don't plan on stopping 40k. I'll just play with other models or my current armies. The most i'll buy is maybe a codex or rules. I'm not the only one either- I'm a member of the largest gaming club in the area and I have seen a massive decline in GW games ove the last 6 months. GW treating customers like **** does make people enjoy the game less.
Ok i'm i'll be booking the flight when the book is announced. I have enough models to field a good sized army of any of the factions I wish to play. Any other models I need can be from other manufacturers. As I said the most I will need is a codex or rule book and knowing GW this won't be common.
I don't see the point in impulse buy GW stuff. Can get equally good models for half the cost elsewhere.
All the whole "only buying discounters" does is hurt the LGS. It doesn't affect GW very much at all, as they make the majority of their money selling to wholesalers anyway. Most local stores offer a discount to customers anyway (I know we do), so why not just support them if you plan on only buying discount anyway. I never understood the draw from buying from the GW website anyway, customer service is far better in a good LGS
Well folks, you dont really have to stop playing GW games, you just have to stop buying new stuff. Every game you play using what you currently own gives GW no money. Its only when you buy new product they make money.
If you need more stuff, buy it used from ebay or various swap sites/forums.
Also, dont feel too bad buying in stock items from independent retailers...they have already payed GW for the product...so not buying it just hurts the retailer and not GW. Of course if the retailer uses that money to restock GW stuff, then it does support them...so whatever...
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Sergeant Horse wrote:I never understood the draw from buying from the GW website anyway, customer service is far better in a good LGS
Well, In my case...GW ships almost right away, my LGS stocks almost nothing and takes several weeks to get in an order.
I buy almost all of my GW from select ebay sellers...Ive found a few highly reliable ones that offer good discounts (average 20%) and ship very quickly. If I order on monday or over a weekend I have my product by thursday or friday.
Side note...I was totally blown away today...I ordered a set of MK III armors from FW on the 11th (last wed), they arrived here to me in the US today. Less than a week for a tiny order.
Mad4Minis wrote:
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Sergeant Horse wrote:I never understood the draw from buying from the GW website anyway, customer service is far better in a good LGS
Well, In my case...GW ships almost right away, my LGS stocks almost nothing and takes several weeks to get in an order.
I buy almost all of my GW from select ebay sellers...Ive found a few highly reliable ones that offer good discounts (average 20%) and ship very quickly. If I order on monday or over a weekend I have my product by thursday or friday.
Side note...I was totally blown away today...I ordered a set of MK III armors from FW on the 11th (last wed), they arrived here to me in the US today. Less than a week for a tiny order.
thats why I said GOOD LGS really, people should demand better customer service from brick and mortar stores, and not let them drag their heels. We try our hardest to be good to our customers, because I would expect that myself from a store I frequented. In return however, I do expect a certain amount of loyalty from my customers, which I am lucky to have. Its give and take (When I do an order, it takes 3 days, no shipping required ). Obviously if a store is not giving enough, it doesn't deserve your business. But if one does, you should help it as much as possible, because THAT is where you will get new players from. Ebay sellers don't really help much, the base margin they buy from GW is no different from a B&M, so you don't hurt by buying from them, all you hurt is the local store which helps promote the game, and other games and increasing the player base, host events etc.
Worglock wrote:Oh look, it's one of these posts again.
Reoccurring troll is reoccurring.
The irony here is so thick you'd need a chainfist to get through it.
As for the OP... he's right. I was fully planning on starting up a Dark Eldar army over the summer. I probably will still do it, but I'll be hunting for the best bargains I can find on Ebay.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wouldn't an actual rebuttal make more sense than a one liner so that you can explain your side? That's how discussions happen
I play in my basement with friends. FLGS suck anyway.
I feel bad for you, how do you find new opponents or armies?
Well,don't feel "bad" for him...there's actually much to be said for simply gaming at home among a select group of friends,for one you avoid a lot of the more negative aspects of gaming at FLGS'.
Plus if you have 6-10 friends who play,and your skills are constantly developing,you always have an opponent to play...and a varitey of armies to play against.
Oh sure, it can be fun, but you would find that with the same opponents all the time, you will find you face the same lists over and over, and once you work the tactics required to win, it can become samey. Not saying it's a bad thing, but people should always be open to new venues
Sergeant Horse wrote:Oh sure, it can be fun, but you would find that with the same opponents all the time, you will find you face the same lists over and over, and once you work the tactics required to win, it can become samey. Not saying it's a bad thing, but people should always be open to new venues
That's true,I just find that with a large enough group of friends,particulary if they own more than one army,that "sameyness(?)" doesn't become to much of a problem.
Of course,when your friends show up with "new players" that's always a big plus.
Worglock wrote:Oh look, it's one of these posts again.
Reoccurring troll is reoccurring.
The irony here is so thick you'd need a chainfist to get through it.
But it's not "rain on your wedding day" level irony.
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Sergeant Horse wrote:
Wouldn't an actual rebuttal make more sense than a one liner so that you can explain your side? That's how discussions happen
Maybe if it was worthy of discussion. But it's not.
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Sergeant Horse wrote:Oh sure, it can be fun, but you would find that with the same opponents all the time, you will find you face the same lists over and over, and once you work the tactics required to win, it can become samey. Not saying it's a bad thing, but people should always be open to new venues
If they only have one army with no options to switch out then yes. How many people are really like that? Probably not that many. I know everyone in the small group of people that I'm actually inclined to play a game with have far more than one 1500 point army.
I play in my basement with friends. FLGS suck anyway.
I feel bad for you, how do you find new opponents or armies?
Save your pity. We have more then a few oppponents. anywhere from 6 to 12 from the old club. PLus we know many many people in various other clubs. We do various things from beer and pretezels to tournment ramp up.
Again, FLGS suck royally. I feel bad for you having to play in them.
Ha, jokes on GW. I made most of my army myself. I ain't paying no one! Well, maybe 70 bucks to GW for codices and two kits. Though if I were more comfortable with ebay, it probably wouldn't even have been that.
I play in my basement with friends. FLGS suck anyway.
I feel bad for you, how do you find new opponents or armies?
Well,don't feel "bad" for him...there's actually much to be said for simply gaming at home among a select group of friends,for one you avoid a lot of the more negative aspects of gaming at FLGS'.
Plus if you have 6-10 friends who play,and your skills are constantly developing,you always have an opponent to play...and a varitey of armies to play against.
Exactly. Its not just one or two folks. Its half a dozen to a dozen depending who is around. Everyone has played for a long while with multiple armies- mostly painted, some not buit working. We dont have any TFG or smelly folks. We can drink if we feel like it. And hell in another month or two we're having a BBQ playing day.
Hell of alot better then playing in a FLGS. We'll go, or not to a FLGS for a tourney, in fact some guys are feeling their oats and want to get back into the curcuit.
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Sergeant Horse wrote:Oh sure, it can be fun, but you would find that with the same opponents all the time, you will find you face the same lists over and over, and once you work the tactics required to win, it can become samey. Not saying it's a bad thing, but people should always be open to new venues
*snort* maybe thats what you find at your FLGS, but no, we dont face the same lists over and over again. Sad what kind of picture you have of folks playing in basements. We were doing that long before FLGS had play areas.
Right....well thankfully,my flgs doesn't have a TFG, or smelly people....what we have is class terrain,great opponents, good food, private gaming rooms etc. I'm not knockinghowyou play mate,just sayingthatbyyou commenting "flgs suck", your limiting yourself unnecessarily. I do find it sad that your experiences have led to that view though.
Bakerofish wrote: You can try killing its hydra heads like the embargo but as long as you feed the hungry monster one way or another you aint doing squat.
its like getting mad when a hydra head snaps at us but we turn and throw another steak down the gaping maw.
So Games Workshop is the Hydra and therefore the Alpha Legion!
Bakerofish wrote: You can try killing its hydra heads like the embargo but as long as you feed the hungry monster one way or another you aint doing squat.
its like getting mad when a hydra head snaps at us but we turn and throw another steak down the gaping maw.
So Games Workshop is the Hydra and therefore the Alpha Legion!
They're rather blunt, though.
They are the Alpha and the Omega!!!! I R Alpharius....
The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.
Even if GW fell flat on it's face it wouldn't mean the games would stop...hell there's plenty of "gaming ideas/fan dexes" etc floating around to keep your minis busy.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.
I think we would like GW to scale back their prices abit, especially since we assumed that resin would be cheaper when they switched from metals.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.
I think we would like GW to scale back their prices abit, especially since we assumed that resin would be cheaper when they switched from metals.
Nobody really thought it would be cheaper, that would never happen, prices do NOT go down, anything, ever. the main hope was that it wouldn't go up or have a need to go up for quite a while
Buy from a third party: pay MSRP or less Buy from GW: MSRP
Difference? paying GW's MSRP sees all of the money go in GW's pocket. If a third party seller charges MSRP or less, then they keep a portion. Remember, they bought their stuff from GW, and these people are happy to get what they get out of it. Since GW isn't selling it to the customer direct, its already earning less.
Lets say, theoretically, out of a $100, $50 is what it cost to make the thing, ship it, and another $20 for the store to "buy" it. Now, a third party retailler still buys it for $70, and sells it for $100, but keeps $30 for itself. A GW store that sells it for $100, keeps $50... riiiiiight? yes, I know im butchering the way it works here, but GW gets less from a third party than from itself.
Moral: buying third-party does hurt.
Anyway, We won't be seeing a price reduction untill they drop their actual store chain. I can't think of any other company that creates dedicated chains of stores for carrying just their wargaming product, and GW swept its other games into a closet.. If they at least marketed all of their lines, then hey, they might be doing better. its not like you wouldnt learn the games at an FLGS, but once you add all the extra shipping, rent, and employment costs that are pretty much non-essential... yeah, ill bet thats a huge bite.
poda_t wrote:Buy from a third party: pay MSRP or less
Buy from GW: MSRP
Difference? paying GW's MSRP sees all of the money go in GW's pocket. If a third party seller charges MSRP or less, then they keep a portion. Remember, they bought their stuff from GW, and these people are happy to get what they get out of it. Since GW isn't selling it to the customer direct, its already earning less.
Lets say, theoretically, out of a $100, $50 is what it cost to make the thing, ship it, and another $20 for the store to "buy" it. Now, a third party retailler still buys it for $70, and sells it for $100, but keeps $30 for itself. A GW store that sells it for $100, keeps $50... riiiiiight? yes, I know im butchering the way it works here, but GW gets less from a third party than from itself.
Moral: buying third-party does hurt.
Actually, that's exactly the way it works. I would disagree that buying third-party "hurts" GW, as much as it means they're not making quite as much money as they would from their retail or online stores.
YOU the player may not be contributing to GW directly now but as you play and influence new players to play the game, new players will need thier own models. They will either buy from GW or from 3rd parties. 3rd party suppliers will continue to buy from GW. money is going to be pouring into GW nonetheless.
the chain is preserved and the cycle continues.
Has GW finally created a near self-perpetuating business model?
"Save money where you can and put up with it. " is the kind of thinking that gives GW freedom to do things that we all hate
I'm sure someones gonna be writing a paper about how GW does business one day and it'll be the wet dream of niche business owners everywhere. Most companies can only dream of what GW can pull off... It really is brilliant.
someone said that whats worse than paying high prices for a model is GW closing up. This is true. The only image i conjure up when I mull this over is that in effect GW is also holding itself up for ransom.
kinda like a hot psycho girlfriend who has a gun to her temple
I really cant see any other way that the cycle can be broken.
I don't think it's clear that buying stuff from bartertown or Ebay is really going to hurt Games Workshop. It's a parallel economy, but one which is fed by the other. If every time you guy a used space robot from Coolguy123 on Ebay, Coolguy123 then goes a newer, better space robot from GWS....
If "u mad bro", just quit. That's all. Don't sing a song or organize a boycott or a petition or a facebook campaign or twitterbombing. Just stop buying their stuff, and continue to play with what you already have. Or play with someone else's really cool stuff. Try out At43, or Dust tactics, or Warmachines, or games like Last Night on Earth.
You don't need to stop PLAYING 40k to hurt GWs bottom line. You just need to STOP BUYING their stuff from them. It's quite possible to play the game with miniatures from other sources (ok, it may be problematic if your only club is in a GW store, but if you dine with the devil, you should expect some scorching.). I've done this for years. Besides, with each edition change, people leave their "hobby" (That's GW's "their hobby" not the first person possessive form, there.). Hell, you can even *find* the rules elsewhere (like 2nd hand bookshops) with a little searching.
I'll just switch my 4500pts of Guard and my several thousand more points of SM to Tomorrow's War (human infantry is still human infantry, and powered armour is powered armour, and tracked slablike vehicles are still tanks). TW doesn't CARE whose models you use.
Sergeant Horse wrote:Right....well thankfully,my flgs doesn't have a TFG, or smelly people....what we have is class terrain,great opponents, good food, private gaming rooms etc. I'm not knockinghowyou play mate,just sayingthatbyyou commenting "flgs suck", your limiting yourself unnecessarily. I do find it sad that your experiences have led to that view though.
Son I've been playing for 20 years. My experiences have lead to FLGS suck. We also have great food, great opponents, awesome terran we made over decades, an dprivate game rooms. PLus beer.
Its not a limit by any stretch. In fact I dont think any FLGS could do better, in my area. In fact, over the years, none have given their behavior. Which lead to private gaming club and playing in our basements.
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NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.
Really? Much like 3.5 dungeons and dragons, your stuff doesnt become worthless when WOTC released 4e. Folks can and still do play other editions. I know some that still play 2nd edition 40k for some reason. If GW disappeared today, folks would still be playing.
Realistically, in today's world it is unlikely the 40k IP wouldn't be sold off to some other company that would do something with it. it might be undeveloped for a few years, but it's a big enough property someone would do something with it.
40k IP has a lot of potential, you would have people fighting over it. It already has a lot of depth but is big enough that most ideas can fit in somewhere.
meh, I stopped playing and buying 40K when warmachine mkII came out. Privateer Press updated their entire model range, every single model from every single faction with the release of the new addition and the (optional) books for it coming out for the 11 factions in the space of a year. My Necron and Dark Eldar armies were ignored by GW more then half a decade and through two editions of the game.
Meanwhile warmachine, and many other games, don't have a You Make Da Call that makes you skin crawl at just how poorly the rules were written. Whenever I dip back into the forum for nostalgia I'm utterly flabbergasted at just how ambiguous the RaW is, it's just pathetic.
If people weren't sick of GW being a perversion of what the wargaming hobby should be by now I don't have much hope this latest series of events will do anything.
Like WoW is to the MMO genre 40K is to the table top wargaming scene, the masses will still keep at it.
Balance wrote:Realistically, in today's world it is unlikely the 40k IP wouldn't be sold off to some other company that would do something with it. it might be undeveloped for a few years, but it's a big enough property someone would do something with it.
If you knew who the board was that runs GW, you wouldn't have to worry about this conversation.
The Original thought behind the question is flawed. First, theres the issue of Shareholders. Second, the issue of the owners, I mean the real owners, of the so called "IP", then theres the little matter of the college board of directors, the banking conglomerate, and the manufacturing base that is in the shadows.
If anything? GW will consolidate the other companies and continue under one of thier other brand names. Much the same way as they did with Cidital.
Knowing the way that Business really runs helps in understanding HOW it runs.
If you don't believe me, do your homework on the fine print of the "Games Workshop". Aside from the financial backing, they have plenty of eggheads running around behind the scenes greasing skids, and keeping up appearances.
Grot 6, I think we ultimately agree... My point was that the IP is unlikely to truly 'die' at this point as it's achieved a sort of critical mass. Restructuring is certainly a possibility if it comes tot hat. I meant that I don't see many reasonable futures where the IP would be abandoned completely.
Maybe Hasbro will buy it and make a family game night type game out of 40k, ooh, maybe we will get a die in a popper-thingy in the middle of the board too!!
A lot of us have enough stuff to last us forever. We don't need to buy anything more. I know I'm not.
And GW won't always have us by the balls because in my mind GW are nothing but 40K's current license holder. When they crash and burn, something I am looking forward to, 40K won't go with them. Someone will by it.
A lot of us have enough stuff to last us forever. We don't need to buy anything more. I know I'm not.
And GW won't always have us by the balls because in my mind GW are nothing but 40K's current license holder. When they crash and burn, something I am looking forward to, 40K won't go with them. Someone will by it.
1. A large successful franchise that's existed for 25 years with a built-in fan base as well as multiple additional streams across video games, novels, RPG's and so on. You're right. I'm sure there are many game and toy companies out that will just let that wither and die. (/sarcasm)
H.B.M.C. wrote:1. A large successful franchise that's existed for 25 years with a built-in fan base as well as multiple additional streams across video games, novels, RPG's and so on. You're right. I'm sure there are many game and toy companies out that will just let that wither and die. (/sarcasm)
You'd be surprised. It all depends on the going price, how the asset is packaged, what licenses and rights the buyer gets. What licenses and rights the buyer doesn't get. etc.
There are enough new players who get a whole lot of stuff and then lose interest to keep the second hand market for existing players and collectors happy. If you're prepared to wait for the inevitable sales after misguided birthday and christmas presents or even impulse buys then you can get the goodies at a more palatable price, though some disassembly may be required.
Having bought the GK power armor set recently I'll probably be selling half the contents I don't want online which will recover some of the money I paid for them and let someone else get some bits without having to buy a whole extra box.
The thing is is that there are tonnes of old basic models out there and the newer sets have loads of extra bits that can be used to update or upgrade these older models making parts sales a very good way to reduce the costs of the new stuff we do buy.
I really don't see where DW is abusing their customers. Price increases suck, but they happen. It's called economics. There are lots of crappy salespeople out there, just like there are crappy people out there. And I guess GW is at fault for being a business that wishes to make money, so when people show up to their sponsored tournaments with models from other companies, it a bit of a slap in the face.
Boycotting GW is a bit ridiculous, because it will eventually draw GW closer to either forcing more regulations at tournaments or more price increases. How many people have actually suffered at the hands of Games Workshop? Very few, I'd bet. Mostly, people don't want to come to terms that a strained global economy makes luxury items like wargames a larger strain on the wallet.
For those who whine that this is an expensive hobby, I hear playing solitaire is pretty cheap. $4 a deck...
Is it? YOU may have enough stuff. a lot of people may have enough stuff. But right now you're the exception rather than the norm.
And as you play you'll always be the advertisement for the game and company regardless if you've never bought anything directly from them in years.
and frankly, You're no longer GW's market HBMC. They're after the new guys. The new guys who are not familiar with the old and are more willing to head on out to a GW store and buy the paint sprayer shaped like a flamer.
Im not advocating that you stop playing anyway. All I'm saying is that if you play, you'll be in GW's pocket one way or another.
and god forbid that GW gets the idea to get the "old guys" back into the fold anytime soon. Theyll end up invalidating whole armies or models by introducing a new edition the way theyre going.
GW Idea Guy: "You know how Wizards of the Coast had a D&D 3.5?..."
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I really don't see where DW is abusing their customers. Price increases suck, but they happen. It's called economics. There are lots of crappy salespeople out there, just like there are crappy people out there. And I guess GW is at fault for being a business that wishes to make money, so when people show up to their sponsored tournaments with models from other companies, it a bit of a slap in the face.
Boycotting GW is a bit ridiculous, because it will eventually draw GW closer to either forcing more regulations at tournaments or more price increases. How many people have actually suffered at the hands of Games Workshop? Very few, I'd bet. Mostly, people don't want to come to terms that a strained global economy makes luxury items like wargames a larger strain on the wallet.
For those who whine that this is an expensive hobby, I hear playing solitaire is pretty cheap. $4 a deck...
Learn to love the lash.
Your post here is so full of fail that your not even making sense.
There is a bonified difference between making money and being intentionally deceitful. If a customer is unhappy, it's a customer thats going to say something about it.
You don't like it? Too bad, don't be a company man and tell them to go play solitaire. Your either being intentionally trollish, or intentionally ignorant about the issue.
As for all of the rest of your hot mess, What are you going on about?
If your sitting there saying that GW can do no wrong, and that you are perfectly fine with being shortchanged by of all things, a gaming company? YOU are sorely mistaken.
GW was the one that "Marketed" themselves as...
"Games Workshop Group PLC, a London Stock Exchange quoted company which was listed in 1994, has been in business for 30 years. At the core is a niche business – Games Workshop. This business designs, manufactures and markets a hobby based upon collecting, modelling, painting and tabletop gaming with model soldiers (the “Hobby”). The Games Workshop business makes the vast majority of the sales and profits of the Group. "
Now how far they want to take that, that remains to be seen, but as you so eliquently ignored the fact that as a "Luxury item" that GW makes it's money off of SELLING said luxury item, well YOU put two and two together.
People buy directly from GW?? Why? Thats like going to an insurance salesman and going "I want to see plans that are exactly equal in quality but I only want to buy the MOST expensive one"
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Boycotting GW is a bit ridiculous, because it will eventually draw GW closer to either forcing more regulations at tournaments or more price increases.
Which matters about as much to those who are serious about not giving GW more money as whether or not the toilet paper in GW corporate bathrooms rolls over or under. If they do what you're suggesting in response to people quitting, even more people will quit feeding the cycle until they either change, fold, or sell.
Well put by the OP and while I still play...a game every 3 months or so...I play for the camaraderie of friends. Buying? Never! While the new DE look amazing, I'm not throwing them away to buy replacements.
No FLGS here within 100 miles, for some reason a community that has been barely touched by the current world economic crisis can't keep a FLGS open. Basement gaming is all I got and it's very much preferred.
What I find most peculiar about the latest price increases, with the largest and the majority coming in at 20%, is that it mirrors what most online retailers sell GW for at discount.
If you don't want to give money to GW, there's no need to. Plenty of other outlets to get the models from.
If you no longer wish to play the game, there's no need to. Plenty of other games to play.
I, for one, don't buy a massive amount of models as I'm quite a slow painter. Therefore the 50/100 pounds I spend every now and then is no great loss. Ergo, I don't feel ripped off. A small outlay every few months gives me lots of fun.
Put it another way - I could spend a similar amount on drink on a night out, with nothing to show for it and no way to reuse what I bought.
I'm happy enough. I understand why others might not be.
But I don't understand why they keep moaning about it.
Considering I don't play in GW stores,and rarely in FLGS,I can always find alternative models to use for "stand ins" for GW models.
Parting company with GW isn't very difficult in that aspect.
I don't really have a choice. No other TT game has a proper Inquisition-themed army like 40k does; and isn't anywhere near as gothic feeling as 40k's Inquisition. Until I find something like that; I can't change.
Sergeant Horse wrote:Oh sure, it can be fun, but you would find that with the same opponents all the time, you will find you face the same lists over and over, and once you work the tactics required to win, it can become samey. Not saying it's a bad thing, but people should always be open to new venues
Not true at all. Many of my friends own multiple armies, as do I. We also tend to buy and build new armies regularly.
Also, a number of us have kids that are starting to play as well, so we are in effect "growing" new opponents (not to mention luring their friends into playing).
We have a tight-knit group with many armies in circulation, many of us play multiple gaming systems, and we can control our environment and who populates it far more then being at the mercy of an LGS. We have quality terrain and available table space any time we want, drink if we choose, play music, orderfood,play as late as we want, and no TFGs or stinky gamers, etc.
I don't think I could go back to public gaming at this point, but luckily I see no need to...
Sergeant Horse wrote:Oh sure, it can be fun, but you would find that with the same opponents all the time, you will find you face the same lists over and over, and once you work the tactics required to win, it can become samey. Not saying it's a bad thing, but people should always be open to new venues
Not true at all. Many of my friends own multiple armies, as do I. We also tend to buy and build new armies regularly.
Also, a number of us have kids that are starting to play as well, so we are in effect "growing" new opponents (not to mention luring their friends into playing).
We have a tight-knit group with many armies in circulation, many of us play multiple gaming systems, and we can control our environment and who populates it far more then being at the mercy of an LGS. We have quality terrain and available table spaceanytime we want, not TFGS or stinky gamers, etc.
I don't think I could go back to public gaming at this point, but luckily I see no need to...
Heh, let me quote one of my friends from out game night last month:
Thursday night at the FLGS I played vs (that guy) ridiculously stupid 3 LR, 1 SR Mephiston BA army. That one game had me almost completely convinced that I was done with 40k once more.
Then I play carmachu(at our monthly basement game night) and despite losing (cause he insists on balanced lists and good gameplay) I remember what and why I enjoy 40k. The truth of it is 40k is a fun game...period. Let me correct that; 40k CAN be a fun game. Games and opponents like last night's prove that over and over.
Have to say I cherish the Basement nights and fully understand why basement gamers are.... basement gamers....
Sergeant Horse wrote:Oh sure, it can be fun, but you would find that with the same opponents all the time, you will find you face the same lists over and over, and once you work the tactics required to win, it can become samey. Not saying it's a bad thing, but people should always be open to new venues
Not true at all. Many of my friends own multiple armies, as do I. We also tend to buy and build new armies regularly.
Also, a number of us have kids that are starting to play as well, so we are in effect "growing" new opponents (not to mention luring their friends into playing).
We have a tight-knit group with many armies in circulation, many of us play multiple gaming systems, and we can control our environment and who populates it far more then being at the mercy of an LGS. We have quality terrain and available table spaceanytime we want, not TFGS or stinky gamers, etc.
I don't think I could go back to public gaming at this point, but luckily I see no need to...
Heh, let me quote one of my friends from out game night last month:
Thursday night at the FLGS I played vs (that guy) ridiculously stupid 3 LR, 1 SR Mephiston BA army. That one game had me almost completely convinced that I was done with 40k once more.
Then I play carmachu(at our monthly basement game night) and despite losing (cause he insists on balanced lists and good gameplay) I remember what and why I enjoy 40k. The truth of it is 40k is a fun game...period. Let me correct that; 40k CAN be a fun game. Games and opponents like last night's prove that over and over.
Have to say I cherish the Basement nights and fully understand why basement gamers are.... basement gamers....
Exactly,when I started playing 40k (ten plus years ago) almost all gaming (at least in my area) was "basement gaming"...friends ,food and drink and the focus was on good times/fun.
In the years that followed,most of my forays into playing at LGS have been "less than enjoyable" (as I've never been in an argument with one of my "house game buddies" over some questionable rule/or 1/10th of an inch possible "over movement")..so I remain a happy home gamer.
Exactly,when I started playing 40k (ten plus years ago) almost all gaming (at least in my area) was "basement gaming"...friends ,food and drink and the focus was on good times/fun.
In the years that followed,most of my forays into playing at LGS have been "less than enjoyable" (as I've never been in an argument with one of my "house game buddies" over some questionable rule/or 1/10th of an inch possible "over movement")..so I remain a happy home gamer.
I was a basement gamer 21ish years ago. Always had a blast, and frankly there were no FLGS. When they came about I have to be honest, the fun lessened. I've never had more fun then playing in the basement with good friends and good armies.
I couldn't agree with you more carmachu...
A grill filled with meat,a cooler filled with beer and a house filled with friends enjoying the game and good times is the perfect gaming experiance as far as I'm concerned..
No sales people,no WAAC nonsense ...just fun.
I bet you the Gw owners are reading this right now laughing and having a circle jerk thought session, while spanking a dressed up dark eldar for ideas of new codex BS. (I forgot to metion... liquid PCP....science...)
Basement gaming is all well and good, but the thing is, what if you're an individual with questionable social skills, few friends, and an interest in an esoteric, non-mainstream entertainment medium (aka, a Geek)? How do you find people to play with? None of my friends have much interest in playing, and if it weren't for the FLGS, I wouldn't have played a single game, or even met a local player, for over two years now. I dislike Online shopping, and the nearest GW is over a day's drive away, so where would I get my models?
Yes, Basement gaming is probably really fun for those little circles of friends who all got into the hobby together, but for the loners like me, the FLGS is a vital link to the wider gaming community.
Kirasu wrote:People buy directly from GW?? Why? Thats like going to an insurance salesman and going "I want to see plans that are exactly equal in quality but I only want to buy the MOST expensive one"
I know right? Who would ever have a GW store as their local game store? Who would ever use a GW store as their place to paint and play? Who's friends would work for a Games Workshop store that would be out of jobs if said store closed?
NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.
Even if GW fell flat on it's face it wouldn't mean the games would stop...hell there's plenty of "gaming ideas/fan dexes" etc floating around to keep your minis busy.
And if they do fold, it would mean all the third party companies would probably pick up the slack.
Who would be able to enforce the 40k trademark if the company fell under and couldn't afford lawyers?
NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.
Even if GW fell flat on it's face it wouldn't mean the games would stop...hell there's plenty of "gaming ideas/fan dexes" etc floating around to keep your minis busy.
And if they do fold, it would mean all the third party companies would probably pick up the slack.
Who would be able to enforce the 40k trademark if the company fell under and couldn't afford lawyers?
quite possible Hasbro.
Then there would really be something to complain about.
Here is a RADICAL idea....
Get your gaming buddies and arrange a gaming venue between you.Use the minatures you already have with an other rule set !
There are tons of FREE to down load at 'freewargamesrules'.
Then simply make up you own scenery-senarios, and house rules to get the game YOU want to play, in a location YOU like to be in with the people YOU like gaming with.
Bakerofish wrote:I've been reading the posts here lately and I just want to air a thought out. Im sure this has been said one way or another but this is my take on it.
GW will always have the players by the cojones
I have 450+ and growing, pts of WarHordes, that say otherwise...
Anvildude wrote:Basement gaming is all well and good, but the thing is, what if you're an individual with questionable social skills, few friends, and an interest in an esoteric, non-mainstream entertainment medium (aka, a Geek)? How do you find people to play with? None of my friends have much interest in playing, and if it weren't for the FLGS, I wouldn't have played a single game, or even met a local player, for over two years now. I dislike Online shopping, and the nearest GW is over a day's drive away, so where would I get my models?
Yes, Basement gaming is probably really fun for those little circles of friends who all got into the hobby together, but for the loners like me, the FLGS is a vital link to the wider gaming community.
Unlike 20 years ago where it was difficult, I have only one thing to say:
Welcome to the wonderful world of the internet. I have coordiated play nights, found my current RPG gaming group, talk, look for players and tournments. You know, players loking for players, there is one here on dakka, and its not the only one.
You dislike online shopping, but I cand find deals that no FLGS can beat. Ork boyz box, $16.49 for one, 3 boxes picked up with $5.50 shipping total for a what, $24 dollar box(plus tax of course if your buying it in a FLGS). Why on earth would you dislike online shopping when I can get stuff about 35% off, almost 40?
Frankly if you cant find a players nowadays with the power of the internet and whining that you dislike online shopping you arent trying hard enough. Its SO much easier today then it was 20 years ago.
It's not the prices online, it's the information thing (and yes, I know about Paypal. I'm a strange person, and I have my quirks. Everyone does).
Well, of course you can find people online to play with, but guess what, I learned about Dakkadakka from *Gasp!* my FLGS!
In any case, there are some things that FLGS have that Basement gaming does not, and vice-versa. I do believe, however, that there are very, very few things Basement gaming has, that a properFLGS doesn't. Mine has an abundance of well-made terrain, many, many tables, a lot of great people, painting tables, it stocks not only GW, but PP, Chainmaille, and other games, and even sells food, plus allows you to bring your own (and since it's in a plaza with a DQ, Wendy's, Chinese place, etc., that's pretty nice.) Not to mention the 'official' tournaments every weekend, for cash prizes.
Anvildude wrote:It's not the prices online, it's the information thing (and yes, I know about Paypal. I'm a strange person, and I have my quirks. Everyone does).
They can steal your information no matter where you are, online or off. That guy behind the counter can take your CC info just as easily as someone online.
Well, of course you can find people online to play with, but guess what, I learned about Dakkadakka from *Gasp!* my FLGS!
Guess what? You find MORE people online then any single FLGS will ever hold. You'll find them all over, especially meetups, players looking for players and many other things. That your FLGS told you about dakka shows you were looking hard enough.
In any case, there are some things that FLGS have that Basement gaming does not, and vice-versa. I do believe, however, that there are very, very few things Basement gaming has, that a properFLGS doesn't. Mine has an abundance of well-made terrain, many, many tables, a lot of great people, painting tables, it stocks not only GW, but PP, Chainmaille, and other games, and even sells food, plus allows you to bring your own (and since it's in a plaza with a DQ, Wendy's, Chinese place, etc., that's pretty nice.) Not to mention the 'official' tournaments every weekend, for cash prizes.
Again, your being silly. WE have quite a bit of well made terrain, home made boards, our own painting stations at home, lots of great people....more and better food especially with summer BBQ season here, Beer, plus other things. Plus the ability to shop in my bunny slippers on any product I want without getting in the car, cheaper to boot with no tax. plus we can pick up and go to any tournment we want, not some crappy one that your store has every week if we choose.
Your cariature of what basment gamers DONT have over what a FLGS does is laughable in the extreme. I laugh at you.
Anvildude wrote:It's not the prices online, it's the information thing (and yes, I know about Paypal. I'm a strange person, and I have my quirks. Everyone does).
I'm going to guess you've never really thought about what could happen to a credit card when the waiter takes it for payment at a restaurant.
GazzyG wrote:If you don't want to give money to GW, there's no need to. Plenty of other outlets to get the models from.
You know, it all of a sudden occurs to me that to really live this principle, the way to do it is with an army of all-alternate models. Nothing by GW. Does anyone out there have such an army? I'd love to see pics! I've seen it talked about more times than I can count, but I can't say I've actually seen it.
I have a small number of models from other lines in my Ork Army (Deffdreads are actually Cybertronic Deathdroids from Warzone because I really think they look like Orks!). But that really doesn't forward the cause. What about an entire army made from alternate publishers?
True, GW stores wouldn't probably let you play them, but not all of us play at GW stores.
GazzyG wrote:If you don't want to give money to GW, there's no need to. Plenty of other outlets to get the models from.
You know, it all of a sudden occurs to me that to really live this principle, the way to do it is with an army of all-alternate models. Nothing by GW. Does anyone out there have such an army? I'd love to see pics! I've seen it talked about more times than I can count, but I can't say I've actually seen it.
I have a small number of models from other lines in my Ork Army (Deffdreads are actually Cybertronic Deathdroids from Warzone because I really think they look like Orks!). But that really doesn't forward the cause. What about an entire army made from alternate publishers?
True, GW stores wouldn't probably let you play them, but not all of us play at GW stores.
This is exactly what I'm doing. Once I finish painting my Word Bearers, I'm moving on to a Vampire Counts army consisting entirely of Mantic Undead, Gamezone (those Mournful Knights are just incredible) and Malifaux stuff. Mantic's undead range covers every main line unit as well as some characters and more special stuff, and is consistent in the quality and age of the sculpts, as opposed to what happens when you sit a new grave guard model next to a GW black knight. Eww. In short, Mantic provide the masses of quality plastic minis I need for the bulk of the army, and I can source specialist units (blood knights, varghulf, etc.) from just about any company with a suitably gothic undead range. Hell, I might just start playing KoW sometime - after all, the rules come free with Mantic's army sets.
Just out of curiosity, do you really think that your "basement gamer" experience is typical of most peoples'?
I'll tell you that I have never been to a home game that comes close to what you're describing you have. Myself, I don't have either the space or inclination to create that type of gaming environment at my own home, but I have tried gaming at the home of several of my friends.
I started playing GW in 1988, and I had played games like D&D since 1978, so I can honestly say that I've been to a lot of different homes to play lots of different games in that time period. The home gaming system that I have seen that had the most gaming tables had two tables. That guy still owns that home and still plays. They have somewhat decent terrain, but nothing special. The best table system I have seen at a home game was a complete custom table that was beautiful, but didn't have much ability to change the terrain around.
For the most part (I would say over 90% of my home-gaming experience over the last 25 or so years), home systems have a single table with a modicum of so-so level terrain.
I've also found that, in my experience, there are just as many "stinky" gamers with poor social skills in private settings as anywhere else. In fact, I can think of a couple of occasions where I think the owners of the home were less inclined to shower before gaming because they weren't leaving their own home. I'm only guessing on the motivation, but I'm certain about the hygiene.
Anyway, my only point is that I really think that your experience with "basement gaming" is far different than the norm. I do believe that your experience shows what the best experiences can be with a good group of motivated individuals to drive the quality of the experience, and I commend you for that. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything remotely like what you describe in the entirety of my gaming lifetime.
Just out of curiosity, do you really think that your "basement gamer" experience is typical of most peoples'?
There's no way to tell. You can see how many people come to stores, but folks like myself whom dont bother, well, how will you know?
I'll tell you that I have never been to a home game that comes close to what you're describing you have. Myself, I don't have either the space or inclination to create that type of gaming environment at my own home, but I have tried gaming at the home of several of my friends.
I started playing GW in 1988, and I had played games like D&D since 1978, so I can honestly say that I've been to a lot of different homes to play lots of different games in that time period. The home gaming system that I have seen that had the most gaming tables had two tables. That guy still owns that home and still plays. They have somewhat decent terrain, but nothing special. The best table system I have seen at a home game was a complete custom table that was beautiful, but didn't have much ability to change the terrain around.
For the most part (I would say over 90% of my home-gaming experience over the last 25 or so years), home systems have a single table with a modicum of so-so level terrain.
I've also found that, in my experience, there are just as many "stinky" gamers with poor social skills in private settings as anywhere else. In fact, I can think of a couple of occasions where I think the owners of the home were less inclined to shower before gaming because they weren't leaving their own home. I'm only guessing on the motivation, but I'm certain about the hygiene.
Anyway, my only point is that I really think that your experience with "basement gaming" is far different than the norm. I do believe that your experience shows what the best experiences can be with a good group of motivated individuals to drive the quality of the experience, and I commend you for that. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything remotely like what you describe in the entirety of my gaming lifetime.
I could point to at least three different game stores that have either crappy amount of tables, since space is limited, or bad terrain. Hell Dash's last tournment with his DE, the terrain was pretty crappy. What I have lying around in my basement bins is better than the unfinished terrain I saw in pictures.
But the reality is YOU get out of the experience what you put into it. Your basement games suck because you or your friends arent willing to devote the time and effort to the terrain and tables. It doesnt happen over night. Terrain doesnt make itself. boards dont get built by miracles.
carmachu wrote:
I could point to at least three different game stores that have either crappy amount of tables, since space is limited, or bad terrain. Hell Dash's last tournment with his DE, the terrain was pretty crappy. What I have lying around in my basement bins is better than the unfinished terrain I saw in pictures.
But the reality is YOU get out of the experience what you put into it. Your basement games suck because you or your friends arent willing to devote the time and effort to the terrain and tables. It doesnt happen over night. Terrain doesnt make itself. boards dont get built by miracles.
Very true, and the same can be said of the experience at the FLGS. I'm lucky enough to be in an area where the most prominent FLGS has a very strong club with a large number of dues-paying members. Consequently, there is a wonderful amount and variety of terrain that is kept, for the most part, in good repair. Honestly, I think one of the main reasons that i am not inclined to do more home gaming stuff (besides the small size of my apartment) is the good quality of the local store. Why should I put all the time and money into making a system at my home, when I can pay $18.00 per year to a club that owns and maintains 15+ tables and sufficient terrain to use all of the simultaneously? That club also happens to be located at an FLGS that serves food and gives discounts to club members. This has come about because of cooperation between the owner of the store and the officers in the club.
Now, I'll agree that this FLGS experience is far from the norm. I feel really lucky to have this store available to me as a place to play games and just hang out. I've been to plenty enough FLGS to know that this store is atypical. We do have a few power gamers and socially challenged individuals who come to the store, but blessedly few hygenically challenged folks. Overall, though, the experience is always positive for me, and I probably stop by the store 2-3 times per week.
Hell, I don't even have to pay to go to my FLGS and play some 40k. Just, every Saturday, show up with an army, and you'll find a game and a table. The store itself has an employee who's job is to create and upkeep the terrain- we've got a brilliant snow table, desert table, forest, various grassed tables, and even a City Fight table, completely covered in roads and buildings, plus a ton of detailed and playable (flat surfaces, wide enough ledges and gaps) movable terrain pieces, matched to table schemes. They're even building a brand-new table in the back.
And the other players are all brilliant. Fun, knowledgeable, and willing to help you out.
really, people should demand better customer service from brick and mortar stores, and not let them drag their heels. We try our hardest to be good to our customers, because I would expect that myself from a store I frequented. In return however, I do expect a certain amount of loyalty from my customers, which I am lucky to have. Its give and take (When I do an order, it takes 3 days, no shipping required 
). Obviously if a store is not giving enough, it doesn't deserve your business. But if one does, you should help it as much as possible, because THAT is where you will get new players from. Ebay sellers don't really help much, the base margin they buy from 
but thanks for trying
done!