Head office has informed me that the price of finecast minitures will be the same price to the old metal minitures and that the old metal minitures will still be avalible for years on their website.
i just thought id tell you guys that info

bye

If this is true, and the metal models are staying, are their prices going up? If not, this spending spree I'm on right now to get all the metals I need is pointless and depressing :\

GW officially announced, on their site, price rises. What of that?

SALT

Wait... what is your connection to the head office?

Not at all. Think how much rage you can build up against GW for falsely announcing a price increase to bump demand.

I'm not sure if oceanice has got the full story, actually.

Dark Sphere posted the full price change list and it clearly showed increases of from 4% to 25% on nearly everything.

I still cant believe they think a 25% increase is a good thing.

carmachu wrote:I still cant believe they think a 25% increase is a good thing.

Well this article http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241 besides the ranting, confirms what many have been thinking for a while now, that GWs sales numbers are steadily decreasing, by more than 10% since 2006 and they are slowly but surely eating their own customer base.

xxvaderxx wrote:

carmachu wrote:I still cant believe they think a 25% increase is a good thing.

Well this article http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241 besides the ranting, confirms what many have been thinking for a while now, that GWs sales numbers are steadily decreasing, by more than 10% since 2006 and they are slowly but surely eating their own customer base.

Making a 75% markup on the items they sell in stores? 75% Markup = 42.9% Gross Profit, that's just crazy! Why would they be having these bi-annual price hikes if they were making such profit? Surely they know they'd move more product if prices were lower and thus sale would be greater, even if it was at a smaller profit the increased sales would make up for that.

xxvaderxx wrote:

carmachu wrote:I still cant believe they think a 25% increase is a good thing.

Well this article http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241 besides the ranting, confirms what many have been thinking for a while now, that GWs sales numbers are steadily decreasing, by more than 10% since 2006 and they are slowly but surely eating their own customer base.

And those sales numbers decreasing coincide nicely with the 'popping' of the aptly named "Lord of the Rings Bubble".

Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

Well, if their products stay so damn expensive, I won't ever start a LotR army... especially seeing as I'll battle to finish my 40k one. Then there's Lizardmen as well!

The way I see it, if I've been in the hobby for 10-12 years, I'll start a new 40k army on 2+, a WHFB army on 3+ and a LotR army on 5+... If you take away those vets, you're taking away the biggest base of consumers that LotR miniatures ever had!

Kanluwen wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

carmachu wrote:I still cant believe they think a 25% increase is a good thing.

Well this article http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241 besides the ranting, confirms what many have been thinking for a while now, that GWs sales numbers are steadily decreasing, by more than 10% since 2006 and they are slowly but surely eating their own customer base.

And those sales numbers decreasing coincide nicely with the 'popping' of the aptly named "Lord of the Rings Bubble".

Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

Actually if anybody bothered to look, how much have GW prices increased since 2005? at least 50%, how much has their sales numbers increased 25% at the very much.

Thats a problem.

I love the hobby, but GW consistently makes moronic business decisions. They are the most successful miniatures gaming company in the world, which says a lot. But then you look at the fact that they have had no real competition and that they were the first movers and you can surmise that the lack of industry push back from any viable competitors has made them lazy.

xxvaderxx wrote:

carmachu wrote:I still cant believe they think a 25% increase is a good thing.

Well this article http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241 besides the ranting, confirms what many have been thinking for a while now, that GWs sales numbers are steadily decreasing, by more than 10% since 2006 and they are slowly but surely eating their own customer base.

Not telling me anything I already didnt know. Anyone reading their reports can see they havent gained unit sales, only lost them for years. Only revenue from outside items, price increases and reductions in cost have made them money, not actual sales.

xxvaderxx wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

carmachu wrote:I still cant believe they think a 25% increase is a good thing.

Well this article http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241 besides the ranting, confirms what many have been thinking for a while now, that GWs sales numbers are steadily decreasing, by more than 10% since 2006 and they are slowly but surely eating their own customer base.

And those sales numbers decreasing coincide nicely with the 'popping' of the aptly named "Lord of the Rings Bubble".

Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

Actually if anybody bothered to look, how much have GW prices increased since 2005? at least 50%, how much has their sales numbers increased 25% at the very much.

Thats a problem.

And if you bothered to read my post, rather than say "if anybody bothered to look at my link", you'd know that this idea isn't actually news.

It's been known for a long time that after 2005-2006, their sales numbers dropped--hard.
Their price raises, theoretically, have been to try to offset that drop in sales numbers rather than actively marketing(which would be kind of limited in its effectiveness) or changing up how they do their product or any number of other ways to try to increase sales numbers while lowering prices.

Kanluwen wrote:
And those sales numbers decreasing coincide nicely with the 'popping' of the aptly named "Lord of the Rings Bubble".

Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

Not just that, but also following trends like loss of sales in NA from killing internet carts and other things. The harder you make it for folks to get your products, the less sales you have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

It's been known for a long time that after 2005-2006, their sales numbers dropped--hard.
Their price raises, theoretically, have been to try to offset that drop in sales numbers rather than actively marketing(which would be kind of limited in its effectiveness) or changing up how they do their product or any number of other ways to try to increase sales numbers while lowering prices.

It started before that, if you look closely enough. Same time as they got rid of carts in the US their unit sales dropped. The LOTR bubble masked alot of problems with their core games.

Actually the LoTR bubble burst in 2004, the year after the last film was released.

The GW web site only carries financial information back to 2006, though. The main share trading sites only seem to go back three or five years too.

Kilkrazy wrote:Actually the LoTR bubble burst in 2004, the year after the last film was released.

It will pop back into existence again next year when The Hobbit is released. It's going to be a great day when GW finally pays attention to that part of their range again.

Yes, I agree. I have been saying for some time that they should do well out of The Hobbit.

They mustn't let it hide the underlying rot, though.

oceanice wrote:Head office has informed me that the price of finecast minitures will be the same price to the old metal minitures and that the old metal minitures will still be avalible for years on their website.
i just thought id tell you guys that info

bye

By head office, you mean you called mailorder? Can you be a tad more exact on how you got the information?

Male cow faeces.

Autarch Fiallathandirel wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

carmachu wrote:I still cant believe they think a 25% increase is a good thing.

Well this article http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241 besides the ranting, confirms what many have been thinking for a while now, that GWs sales numbers are steadily decreasing, by more than 10% since 2006 and they are slowly but surely eating their own customer base.

Making a 75% markup on the items they sell in stores? 75% Markup = 42.9% Gross Profit, that's just crazy! Why would they be having these bi-annual price hikes if they were making such profit? Surely they know they'd move more product if prices were lower and thus sale would be greater, even if it was at a smaller profit the increased sales would make up for that.

I didn't think I was *that* ranty.

And that's a 75% margin on some products sold in THEIR stores. Which only account for about 45% of the total volume for their business. Which is still, as I said in the article, bloody embarrassing, but when you account for newer kits not being as profitable due to the fact they haven't paid off the molds, the fact that sales through independent retailers aren't as profitable, and so forth, it does jive with the ultimate net profit margin of ~12.7% being pretty spot on.

Which, by the way, is still pretty damn amazing, incidentally, Exxon-Mobile didn't have a net profit margin over 10% last year, in case you were wondering, if I remember correctly. I don't remember 100% for sure, I'm still doing research for my follow up article.

I've physically held the new price sheet. There is a price hike. I was hunting around specifically for my dwarves and saw $.75 on dwarf heroes and $3 on my warmachines. That's 5% and a little under 10% respectively.

Most posters here misunderstood the first post.

1.) There is a price increase for paper and plastic products announced on the GW website, with several lists published. This thread is not about them.

2.) Then there are the finecast versions of former metal miniatures. These are supposed to go up in price, even when the production costs are lower. Current price lists support that price increase. The OP now says that the head office has decided to keep the original prices for those miniatures. If this is true, it is a decision of the last few days and a reaction to the internet rage. We will see within 6 days if this is true.

Kanluwen wrote:Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

I doubt that GW was ever smart enough to sell their product range in Toys-R-Us.

Kroothawk wrote:Most posters here misunderstood the first post.

1.) There is a price increase for paper and plastic products announced on the GW website, with several lists published. This thread is not about them.

2.) Then there are the finecast versions of former metal miniatures. These are supposed to go up in price, even when the production costs are lower. Current price lists support that price increase. The OP now says that the head office has decided to keep the original prices for those miniatures. If this is true, it is a decision of the last few days and a reaction to the internet rage. We will see within 6 days if this is true.

VERY good point - and to be honest, it is the only reason this thread is staying open.

Start the Countdown Clock!

(Recently freed up by the Rapture That Wasn't!)

Alpharius wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Most posters here misunderstood the first post.

1.) There is a price increase for paper and plastic products announced on the GW website, with several lists published. This thread is not about them.

2.) Then there are the finecast versions of former metal miniatures. These are supposed to go up in price, even when the production costs are lower. Current price lists support that price increase. The OP now says that the head office has decided to keep the original prices for those miniatures. If this is true, it is a decision of the last few days and a reaction to the internet rage. We will see within 6 days if this is true.

VERY good point - and to be honest, it is the only reason this thread is staying open.

Start the Countdown Clock!

(Recently freed up by the Rapture That Wasn't!)

+1
Anyway GW is killing itself.

Kroothawk wrote:Most posters here misunderstood the first post.

1.) There is a price increase for paper and plastic products announced on the GW website, with several lists published. This thread is not about them.

2.) Then there are the finecast versions of former metal miniatures. These are supposed to go up in price, even when the production costs are lower. Current price lists support that price increase. The OP now says that the head office has decided to keep the original prices for those miniatures. If this is true, it is a decision of the last few days and a reaction to the internet rage. We will see within 6 days if this is true.

Kanluwen wrote:Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

I doubt that GW was ever smart enough to sell their product range in Toys-R-Us.

This could be true and all, but GW has already pissed me off that I am no longer one of their customers.

GW can try to repair the damage, but that will only fool short sighted people. Much like a dog who has been beaten, I won't go back just because my "master" hands me a treat afterwards. Shame though, that many of you will go right back, blind, for more beatings.

As for the Hobbit movies coming, history will just repeat itself. GW will get an influx of money, bloat their business model with new, uneeded stores, and inflate their costs, instead of cutting their brtick and mortar cancer, investing in a dedicated team of people to iron out playable rules and bring the prices of their models to a realistic level.

As it is now, only the blind and addicts stay with GW out of some misguided love for "the hobby".

Go back to your treats guys.

BuFFo wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Most posters here misunderstood the first post.

1.) There is a price increase for paper and plastic products announced on the GW website, with several lists published. This thread is not about them.

2.) Then there are the finecast versions of former metal miniatures. These are supposed to go up in price, even when the production costs are lower. Current price lists support that price increase. The OP now says that the head office has decided to keep the original prices for those miniatures. If this is true, it is a decision of the last few days and a reaction to the internet rage. We will see within 6 days if this is true.

Kanluwen wrote:Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

I doubt that GW was ever smart enough to sell their product range in Toys-R-Us.

This could be true and all, but GW has already pissed me off that I am no longer one of their customers.

GW can try to repair the damage, but that will only fool short sighted people. Much like a dog who has been beaten, I won't go back just because my "master" hands me a treat afterwards. Shame though, that many of you will go right back, blind, for more beatings.

As for the Hobbit movies coming, history will just repeat itself. GW will get an influx of money, bloat their business model with new, uneeded stores, and inflate their costs, instead of cutting their brtick and mortar cancer, investing in a dedicated team of people to iron out playable rules and bring the prices of their models to a realistic level.

As it is now, only the blind and addicts stay with GW out of some misguided love for "the hobby".

Go back to your treats guys.

Umadbro?!

Quick to insult others just because they are not doing the same as you?

It's your choice if you want to continue buying the miniatures/ leave GW forever. We'll do what we want, and what our wallets allow us

I may have dessicated myself with the amount of salt I'm taking this with.

Problem if they pull back the price rise for the resin is that the WD with all the new prices has been submitted for printing, and is probably already printed.
They have a 3 month lag for WD.
So all the prices on the resin will be wrong.

If the news on the resin is true - great.
The Southern hemisphere embargo is my biggest concern though.

I sincerely doubt they'd raise and then lower the prices just like that. The people at the top aren't shrewd enough to know when to quit when it comes to jacking people around.

Personally I only see the prices even possibly lowering in a couple of months when GW's numer of sales have plummeted and the people in charge (or at least the slightly more competant ones) see this happening. And even then I can hardly see them actually realizing the problem, knowing the people in charge they'd just raise the prices even more and possibly cut some of their models from production to 'save costs' or some bullgak like that

and bring the prices of their models to a realistic level.

While character models are more expensive, for the most part GW's prices are inline with the rest of the hobby community and modelling community. Look at PP's prices or reapers.

NoBaconz4You wrote:Umadbro?!

Is that English?

Quick to insult others just because they are not doing the same as you?

Not at all. The flurry of poop GW has dropped on all our chests lately should have been more than enough to drive anyone away from them.

I guess some can take more than others, and I just cannot take it anymore...

GW!! YOU ARE TEARING ME APART!!!!

General Hobbs wrote:

and bring the prices of their models to a realistic level.

While character models are more expensive, for the most part GW's prices are inline with the rest of the hobby community and modelling community. Look at PP's prices or reapers.

Taken out of context, yeah.

But keeping the discussion within a semblance of context, my Legion of Everblight army runs, um, 15 - 20 models, max. My Ork Army runs, um, nearly 200 models for the same game length of a few hours? My Dark Eldar, to have any chance of winning, has to run with tons of vehicles. So half the time my models aren't even PLACED on the table. All I see are, ugh... METAL BOXES on the battlefield. And when you try to run models on foots, you then get the mission with 2 Objectives, and you are boned hard.

So in the end, 40k/Fantasy is FAR more expensive than any other table top game I have come across.

Yeah yeah, you can play kill teams and run 500 point armies (which still have more models than a large Warmachine game), but i am talking about a standard 1500 point list.

Kroothawk wrote:
I doubt that GW was ever smart enough to sell their product range in Toys-R-Us.

They did indeed sell via Toys-R-Us and even Argos many moons ago.

Currently they are stocked in Hobby Craft.

One thing I never see mentioned is inflation. In virtually every place that GW products are sold, there is gradual inflation.

Since GW is a British company, I'd point out that the inflation rate there is hovering around 4%. Granted, there are all sorts of complexities in exchange rates, etc. etc. but at the end of the day, many first world countries have an inflation rate hovering around the 3-5% range.

That's yearly.

GW would have to increase their prices by a similar percentage in order to simply maintain real revenue.

I wouldn't claim to know enough about GW's bottom line to say if their current prices are optimal or not, but I find it funny that people are angrily and confidently saying they're "stupid" without exhibiting any awareness of simple/obvious/universal realities such as inflation.

They don't actually. British wage inflation has been running below price inflation for a couple of years. Plastic and metal has been running above. Resin is below (I made that up).

4% inflation justifies a 17% price increase how?

Phryxis wrote:One thing I never see mentioned is inflation. In virtually every place that GW products are sold, there is gradual inflation.

Since GW is a British company, I'd point out that the inflation rate there is hovering around 4%. Granted, there are all sorts of complexities in exchange rates, etc. etc. but at the end of the day, many first world countries have an inflation rate hovering around the 3-5% range.

That's yearly.

GW would have to increase their prices by a similar percentage in order to simply maintain real revenue.

I wouldn't claim to know enough about GW's bottom line to say if their current prices are optimal or not, but I find it funny that people are angrily and confidently saying they're "stupid" without exhibiting any awareness of simple/obvious/universal realities such as inflation.

If they increased their prices in line with the rate of inflation, you wouldn't have the number of threads that appear every year when they do their price increases. People ARE aware of inflation but that simply isn't a justification for the 15%-25% yearly increases some products keep getting.

Phryxis wrote:One thing I never see mentioned is inflation. In virtually every place that GW products are sold, there is gradual inflation.

Since GW is a British company, I'd point out that the inflation rate there is hovering around 4%. Granted, there are all sorts of complexities in exchange rates, etc. etc. but at the end of the day, many first world countries have an inflation rate hovering around the 3-5% range.

That's yearly.

GW would have to increase their prices by a similar percentage in order to simply maintain real revenue.

I wouldn't claim to know enough about GW's bottom line to say if their current prices are optimal or not, but I find it funny that people are angrily and confidently saying they're "stupid" without exhibiting any awareness of simple/obvious/universal realities such as inflation.

Red herring. GW raises their prices by far MORE then inflation. Just look at the last sheet of increases thats from 4% to 25%! TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT. Which is far far far above inflation.

Further, those "comlpexities" you mentioned, dont come much into play. See Canadian prices and Australian Prices, which have no corolation between exchange rates and pricing.


I find it sad you dont seem to understand whats going on. Hell I dont think you even understand inflation at all.

If they increased their prices in line with the rate of inflation, you wouldn't have the number of threads that appear every year when they do their price increases. People ARE aware of inflation but that simply isn't a justification for the 15%-25% yearly increases some products keep getting.

I doubt that. People find a way to complain about everything.

4% inflation justifies a 17% price increase how?

Are GW prices increasing by 17% a year? My impression is that these price hikes only come along every 2-3 years.

Even if that's not the case, people are describing hikes of 5% in some cases, more in others. My point is that 4% a year is, essentially, "holding steady."

People can claim that they're TOTALLY factoring in inflation when they register their loudly enraged complaints, but I never seem to see the phrase "adjusted for inflation," and instead I see a lot of this:

I find it sad you dont seem to understand whats going on. Hell I dont think you even understand inflation at all.

Right, good point, I'm pretty sure that level of hostility is completely justified.

carmachu wrote:
Red herring. GW raises their prices by far MORE then inflation. Just look at the last sheet of increases thats from 4% to 25%! TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT. Which is far far far above inflation.

On some specific models. Other items have no increase at all. What is the overall increase? Not 25%, I know that much.

I went to my GW shelf and looked for a box of something that was still sealed and had a price tag. I found Cadian Shock troops for $22. I purchased that around the time of the release of the Codex, almost exactly 2 years ago.

Current price on Amazon is 24.15. That's an increase of 9.7%, closely in line with the inflation rate of the GBP over that time period.

Now, again, I'm not saying that GW has exactly kept pace with inflation, and all the complaints are completely wrong. I'm just saying that there's a big difference between a 15% increase and a 5% increase, and there should be a lot more usage of the phrase "adjusted for inflation," and a lot less usage of the questionable economic theory of "OMG UR STOOPID, LERN 2 MACROECON PLS LOL."

Phryxis wrote:I went to my GW shelf and looked for a box of something that was still sealed and had a price tag. I found Cadian Shock troops for $22. I purchased that around the time of the release of the Codex, almost exactly 2 years ago.

Current price on Amazon is 24.15. That's an increase of 9.7%, closely in line with the inflation rate of the GBP over that time period.

Now, again, I'm not saying that GW has exactly kept pace with inflation, and all the complaints are completely wrong. I'm just saying that there's a big difference between a 15% increase and a 5% increase, and there should be a lot more usage of the phrase "adjusted for inflation," and a lot less usage of the questionable economic theory of "OMG UR STOOPID, LERN 2 MACROECON PLS LOL."

Numbers speak for themselves, since 2005 their stuff has gone up about 50%, their sales how ever have only increased about 25%. If they want to eat out their customer base, thats cool, i am a big fan of "I told you so".

Also this numbers are deceiving, its actually much more than 50% since now most fantasy boxes come in 10s and that was not always the case before.

I just found a box of Fire Warriors, with a price tag of $27. If I recall correctly, I bought them when the FIRST Codex came out in 2001, but because it doesn't even matter, I'll assume it was when the Tau Empire Codex came out, over 5 years ago. Amazon's price on Fire Warriors is stupid, but other online stores have them for $34. That's a 25% increase in 5 years, again, roughly in line with the rate of inflation. And I'm pretty sure I purchased them more than 5 years ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Numbers speak for themselves, since 2005 their stuff has gone up about 50%

The numbers might speak for themselves if there were any numbers presented, but all I see is a statement that doesn't coincide with my memory, nor with my cursory shelf-based research on the subject.

Edit: Upon further googling, it appears that Cadian Shock troops can be had for LESS than I paid two years ago.

Edit: Found a Tau Devilfish on my shelf, still sealed. Price tag is $32. Price on Amazon is $28. I got it, again, 5 years go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to point out that the cost of ammunition (as in for real firearms) has gone up by something like 100% over the last 10 years. There was a brief period in 2008 when you simply couldn't get certain calibers.

Is GW somehow involved with that, as well?

Phryxis wrote:I just found a box of Fire Warriors, with a price tag of $27. If I recall correctly, I bought them when the FIRST Codex came out in 2001, but because it doesn't even matter, I'll assume it was when the Tau Empire Codex came out, over 5 years ago. Amazon's price on Fire Warriors is stupid, but other online stores have them for $34. That's a 25% increase in 5 years, again, roughly in line with the rate of inflation. And I'm pretty sure I purchased them more than 5 years ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Numbers speak for themselves, since 2005 their stuff has gone up about 50%

The numbers might speak for themselves if there were any numbers presented, but all I see is a statement that doesn't coincide with my memory, nor with my cursory shelf-based research on the subject.

Edit: Upon further googling, it appears that Cadian Shock troops can be had for LESS than I paid two years ago.

Edit: Found a Tau Devilfish on my shelf, still sealed. Price tag is $32. Price on Amazon is $28. I got it, again, 5 years go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to point out that the cost of ammunition (as in for real firearms) has gone up by something like 100% over the last 10 years. There was a brief period in 2008 when you simply couldn't get certain calibers.

Is GW somehow involved with that, as well?

Comparing former retail prices to a deal that you can currently find is far from useful as a metric for debate.

Amazon is a horrible place to use as price comparison because the prices can be so random sometimes.

General Hobbs wrote:

and bring the prices of their models to a realistic level.

While character models are more expensive, for the most part GW's prices are inline with the rest of the hobby community and modelling community. Look at PP's prices or reapers.

Really? Jokerao Weaponsmith - $13
Comparable Reaper model? $5 or less

That's just one example. I don't think you will find a single GW model that is anywhere CLOSE to Reaper's pricing.

Reaper is also a smaller company, with many, many more models, both which SHOULD make them the more expensive of the two. Yet they seem to be doing just fine, coming out with new stuff every month. How do you explain that? (Didn't mention PP since I'm not familiar with their pricing at all)

People are getting too centered on the actual price increases themselves and not the OVERALL price of this damned hobby. There are people in other threads running these costs, and they're quite high, increasing every year at a rate higher than your "inflation" justification.

We're going to see $80 land raiders quite soon at this rate. $80 for a little plastic tank. $80 for something that has as much plastic in it as any toy at Toys-R-Us that sells for $15. Terminators and stuff like that are even worse. So what if in the game they're better than marines? You're going to pay WHAT for 5 little pieces of plastic?

People stuck on the whole "inflation" argument need to collectively remove their heads and understand where these prices have gotten to, and more importantly, where they are going. This is very quickly going to be a hobby that is WELL outside of the reach of GWs coveted "teenage boy with pocket money" audience, and even beyond the means of the dedicated veterans. Every year more and more people will decide to hang it up on the basis of cost, and every year you will have less people to sell your "inflation" argument to at your local GW shop - if there's even going to be one in a few more years, at this rate.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
The Southern hemisphere embargo is my biggest concern though.

Can US stores still ship south of the border? I can really recommend www.thewarstore.com

General Hobbs wrote:

and bring the prices of their models to a realistic level.

While character models are more expensive, for the most part GW's prices are inline with the rest of the hobby community and modelling community. Look at PP's prices or reapers.

Other companies have high prices because they have taken a page from GW. They know they can get away with it to a certain extent.

Back when Reaper first appeared on the scene, their prices were the same as just aboue every other miniature company. Roughly $1 - $1.5 for a single infantry sized model. Reaper sculpts were quite good in comparison to others at that period of time in the early-mid nineties. Same with Ral Partha who were still around during that period. GW models at that time were still excessively expensive (the same single model wizard cost roughly $8-$10) and companies like Reaper were the natural choice for people who wanted to pay a reasonable amount of money for miniatures without throwing money at GW reinforcing their overinflated sense of worth.

GW are not keeping up with the industry. GW are the reason why the industry is priced the way it is today.

Thrax wrote:People are getting too centered on the actual price increases themselves and not the OVERALL price of this damned hobby. There are people in other threads running these costs, and they're quite high, increasing every year at a rate higher than your "inflation" justification.

We're going to see $80 land raiders quite soon at this rate. $80 for a little plastic tank. $80 for something that has as much plastic in it as any toy at Toys-R-Us that sells for $15. Terminators and stuff like that are even worse. So what if in the game they're better than marines? You're going to pay WHAT for 5 little pieces of plastic?

People stuck on the whole "inflation" argument need to collectively remove their heads and understand where these prices have gotten to, and more importantly, where they are going. This is very quickly going to be a hobby that is WELL outside of the reach of GWs coveted "teenage boy with pocket money" audience, and even beyond the means of the dedicated veterans. Every year more and more people will decide to hang it up on the basis of cost, and every year you will have less people to sell your "inflation" argument to at your local GW shop - if there's even going to be one in a few more years, at this rate.

I completely agree. I have been in and out of the 40K hobby since 3rd edition. I remember when I got back into it just over a year ago and even then I was questioning the cost of things. But, I got back into it and then GW raised their prices. I swore that I wouldn't pay those prices and so I started ordering everything from Neal at the Warstore. The discount offset the price rise for me. Now GW have raised their prices again (and now I find out this is an "anual price rise") and so I've stopped completely. I can play 40K with what I have. I really, really wanted to start a Dark Eldar army, but not with these prices.

I think a lot of people are feeling the same way. What really irks me though are the same types of people who pop up every price rise and say "it's just an extra three or four dollars. If you can't afford that then you shouldn't be in this hobby." I don't think they've got the long-term memory to remember that we've all heard that line for the last two or three price rises. It's not "just three or four dollars" anymore. Over the last few hikes it's more like a ten dollars in many places, and it doesn't seem to be ending any time soon. So, yes, the days of $80 Land Raiders aren't far off in my opinion. Voting with your wallet is all that matters to companies. Many others have made the same choice. I just wish people would stop trying to justify all the crap GW has pulled in the last week.

Reaper also doesn't have a game system and stores to support. Reaper just makes generic stuff for the most part (well now they do. Not counting failed games of the past)

Theduke07 wrote:Reaper also doesn't have a game system and stores to support. Reaper just makes generic stuff for the most part (well now they do. Not counting failed games of the past)

Is that meant to be a defense of why GW have such high prices?

Because if so, their retail outlets can burn for all I care. I prefer to game in places where I can bring whatever I want that I bought at that establishment instead of ignorant pontification about nothing else beyond GW existing on this planet.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
The Southern hemisphere embargo is my biggest concern though.

Can US stores still ship south of the border? I can really recommend www.thewarstore.com

I can't recommend The Warstore, simply because shipping from them would be quite a hefty bit.

They even recommend that if you want to place an overseas order, you have it mailed to a friend/trusted confidant in the States and have them mail it on.

I have compiled a list of the suggested retail prices as they appeared in the 2002 gws catalog (if you want a price for a specific model pm me). Since 2002 some models have gone up by more than 50% (but this is over a period of 9 years!). It's the lower value models that seem to have gone up the most (percentage wise). Overall the rise in those 9 years is 40ish%.

The 2010 catalog features 600+ pages while the 2002 catalog only had about 160 pages. There are tons of models available these days compared to 2002.

The Price bands for the 2002 catalog were as follows. Please note that a lot of models have changed since 2002 (improved with more options). I have selected models for each price range that are either exactly the same or are similar (old battle force vs new battle force). If the sets are different the exact composition is in the notes below. The "now" prices are the prices that are valid NOW, not the prices that are valid as of May 28th.

A: 3 GBP
B: 4 GBP (Space marine apothecary (metal))=> now 7.20 GBP
C: 4 GBP (Codex Blood angels 24 pages) => now 17.50 GBP (now 96 pages)
D: 5 GBP (Chaos space marine bike) => now 7.20 GBP
E: 6 GBP (Commissar Yarrick (metal)) => now 10.25 GBP
F: 8 GBP (Codex Space marines 48 pages, Codex Imperial guard 48 pages) => now 18.00 GBP (now 104 pages)
G: 8 GBP (Abaddon the despoiler (metal)) => now 12.30 GBP
H: 10 GBP (Space marine attack bike, Imperial guard sentinel) => now 15.50 GBP
I: 12 GBP (Space marine assault squad) => now 18.50 GBP
J: 15 GBP (Space marine tactical squad) => now 23.00 GBP
K: 18 GBP (Space marine devastator squad, Imperial guard Chimera) => now 20.50 GBP
L: 20 GBP (Space marine dreadnought) => now 27.70 GBP
L: 20 GBP (Imperial guard Hellhound tank) => now 30.75 GBP
M: 25 GBP (Space marine Furioso dreadnought) => now 27.70 GBP (4)
M: 25 GBP (Leman Russ Demolisher) => now 30.75 GBP
N: 30 GBP (Space marine land raider) => now 38.50 GBP
O: 35 GBP (Space marine land raider crusader) => now 38.50 GBP
P: 40 GBP
Q: 50 GBP (Space marine battle force (1)) => now 51.25 GBP (2)
Q: 50 GBP (Imperial guard battle force (5) ) => now 56.50 GBP (6)
R: 75 GBP (Space marine mega force (3) ) => now ? GBP

Notes:
(1) Old Space marine battle force: 10 space marines, 5 terminators, 1 landspeeder, 3 space marine bikes, gothic ruins frame
(2) New Space marine battle force includes: 15 tactical space marines, Rhino, 5 Space marine scouts, 5 Assault marines
(3) Space marine mega force: 10 space marines, 5 assault marines, 5 terminators, 1 dreadnought, 1 land raider, 1 gothic ruins frame
(4) Price for new recently released Blood angels Furioso Dreadnought
(5) Old Imperial guard Catachan battle force includes 20 catachan jungle fighters, 2 sentinels, 1 Leman Russ Battle tank, tree frames
(6) Current Imperial guard Catachan battle force includes 1 Catachan command squad, 20 Catachan jungle fighters, 3 Catachan heavy weapon teams, 1 sentinel

Rather than guessing inflation as many people citing it are, look it up.

US inflation:
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/currentinflation.asp

UK's is similar.

Not even close to 5% anywhere.

BuFFo wrote:Is that English?

Unfortunately.

BuFFo wrote:The flurry of poop GW has dropped on all our chests lately...

That gave me a horrible image >.<

Despite my previous post, I am very much inclined to agree with you. *sigh*

Again, you're hopelessly focused on the incremental. How much are you willing to pay for this stuff before you decide it's a smarter option to put your finances elseware? $50 a unit? $80 a unit? $150 a unit? $200? Are you really willing to continue to pay more and more and more for your little plastic toy soldiers?

Gain some perspective man, realize how much this is bankrupting people and then consider that the exact increments of the price hikes aren't what matters - it's that the prices are already so damn high there's no room for further hikes.

FURTHERMORE: GW is losing it's ability to hold onto the few "teenage boys with pocket money" that they gain through high pressure intro game sales. Why would you spend $800 on your models, paints, glue, etc when you can spend $60 for the next best selling video game of all time and be able to play it with complete and total instant gratification from the moment you pop it into your xbox? That's who they're trying to capture here, and they're not going to win them over by hiking the costs to astronomical levels. It's not going to work. This is an unsustainable business model for GW and sooner or later the bottom is going to drop out as the prices reach critical mass and the exodus ensues.

NoBaconz4You wrote:Umadbro?

I can't help but to chuckle whenever somebody uses the term "bro," even when used in such a poorly constructed word smash-up.

On topic: If it's true that GW will keep the prices of their resin line consistent with their outgoing metal line, then they are making a step in the right direction.

Personally, I'm not giving them another dime until they step back away from their ridiculous demands that internet retailers not ship to the southern hemisphere. I just can't feel right about supporting them while they interfere with the free trade of goods.

I'll still play, but I'll be using models I already have, plus the stuff I have on pre-order. It makes me mad that its come to this point where I don't feel like I can support the company behind the hobby that I love.

Mr Hyena wrote:

I doubt that. People find a way to complain about everything.

Just like how people like yourself try and excuse or dismiss anything.

Hellfury wrote:

Theduke07 wrote:Reaper also doesn't have a game system and stores to support. Reaper just makes generic stuff for the most part (well now they do. Not counting failed games of the past)

Is that meant to be a defense of why GW have such high prices?

Because if so, their retail outlets can burn for all I care. I prefer to game in places where I can bring whatever I want that I bought at that establishment instead of ignorant pontification about nothing else beyond GW existing on this planet.

I likely wouldn't have worded it that way, but I do agree.

Redbeard wrote:

On some specific models. Other items have no increase at all. What is the overall increase? Not 25%, I know that much.

Overall doesnt match inflation.

NoBaconz4You wrote:

BuFFo wrote:The flurry of poop GW has dropped on all our chests lately...

That gave me a horrible image

Delicious!

Phryxis wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to point out that the cost of ammunition (as in for real firearms) has gone up by something like 100% over the last 10 years. There was a brief period in 2008 when you simply couldn't get certain calibers.

Is GW somehow involved with that, as well?

Red herring. Stop trying to deflect. Ammo has nothing to do with miniature gaming.

2 thoughts,

1. All this pricing furor is taking focus away from the games imbalances written into it by multiple codex writers.

2. I do miss the time i've paid $30AUD for a squad box that had ALL the options for a squad, I hate having to buy 2 boxes to get enough plastic guns to equip the squad the way I want, or even not have the extra options/models written in the codex list at all (looking at you Mr Medusa)

Phryxis wrote:One thing I never see mentioned is inflation. In virtually every place that GW products are sold, there is gradual inflation.

Since GW is a British company, I'd point out that the inflation rate there is hovering around 4%. Granted, there are all sorts of complexities in exchange rates, etc. etc. but at the end of the day, many first world countries have an inflation rate hovering around the 3-5% range.

That's yearly.

GW would have to increase their prices by a similar percentage in order to simply maintain real revenue.

I wouldn't claim to know enough about GW's bottom line to say if their current prices are optimal or not, but I find it funny that people are angrily and confidently saying they're "stupid" without exhibiting any awareness of simple/obvious/universal realities such as inflation.

Nope
Inflation gets mentioned all the time Phryxis.
The UK rate is 5%. The highest for 2 1/2 years. What were the price increases for the previous 2 years? Any money against it being above the inflation rate?

It also depends which index is used, as some include mortgages for house buyers that I don't see as being so relevant to GW who possibly rent premises? Anyway they have been closing down stores so it should be less of an issue

Also GB interest rates have been very low so borrowing for investment and mortgages should be a lot cheaper these days.

It also begs the question, why are some increases at 5% yet a whole load more at 20% ie 4x the current rate of inflation?

Anyone who watched Turn 8 will have seen that GW have simply said it is an annual increase, it is just a pre determined hike by GW as far as I can see.
Which is why even people with a decent grasp of economics are getting riled.

I'm curious to see their next couple financial reports just to see what happens to their sales and profits.

augustus5 wrote:

I can't help but to chuckle whenever somebody uses the term "bro,"

Thrax wrote:
Gain some perspective man, realize how much this is bankrupting people...

Perhaps people who are going bankrupt buying toy soldiers are the ones who need perspective. I buy models after...

My mortgage is paid.
I've put 10% towards retirement savings.
I've put 20% towards short-term savings
My utilities & other bills are paid.
My credit cards are paid off.
My food is budgeted for the month.

Only after all of the above do I think about entertainment spending, which is what hobbies are. That's "perspective". Some people here seem to think that toy soldiers are a right or a necessity. They're not. You'd be better off complaining about how the price of gasoline is up 35% over last year, or that essentials like milk, coffee, and beef are all up over 10% from their prices last year. (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics). That's "perspective".


As another thought, if you're not doing the above. If you're buying toy soldiers on a credit card, if you're paying 20% interest on your entertainment. Maybe you're the reason that prices got so high to begin with. Maybe you should drop out of the hobby because it's too expensive. Quite possibly, people continuing to by models in excess of their means is skewing the supply-demand points? Possibly, not quitting when the prices get to high leads the GW executives to continue to believe that the market is price insensitive. They're only going to learn where the breaking point is when people break, and if people are going into debt to continue their habit, well, maybe that's why the prices are so high.

Or it could just be international prices. Someone in another one of these pricing threads had a link to an article that was saying the price of raw plastic is up like 75% (number might be off). If it costs more to make a land raider, it stands to reason that it costs more to buy one.

carmachu wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
On some specific models. Other items have no increase at all. What is the overall increase? Not 25%, I know that much.

Overall doesnt match inflation.

Did you compute this, I'm curious as to what the actual overall increase is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alastair78 wrote:2 thoughts,

1. All this pricing furor is taking focus away from the games imbalances written into it by multiple codex writers.

Too true. I'm much more upset about stupidly written rules than I am about having to drop another $4 on a battlewagon.

Hellfury wrote:GW are not keeping up with the industry. GW are the reason why the industry is priced the way it is today.

Well, that and a 400% increase in the cost of metal over the last 5 years, plus soaring fuel prices which affect several aspects of manufacturing and shipping the product.)

Back on topic:

I didn't even consider that the OP mean't that there would be be a reduction in the cost of Finecast to match the prices on the metals they replaced. I simply assumed that if metals and finecast were the same price, it would be the price after this increase, matching the listed prices. In no way do i think that they will change the price of the resin models a week after they have retailers place orders, and a week before they go on sale.

The op wrote: Head office has informed me that the price of finecast minitures will be the same price to the old metal minitures and that the old metal minitures will still be avalible for years on their website.

Same price, not current price.)

My order for finecast had to be in by friday noon, hopefully I find out more about what I ordered several thousand dollars of this week. Can't sell it until Saturday, but I'll damn sure be taking a model home with me to paint the day they come in, so I can get a feel for the new materials and how they paint up.

Redbeard wrote:

Thrax wrote:
Gain some perspective man, realize how much this is bankrupting people...

Perhaps people who are going bankrupt buying toy soldiers are the ones who need perspective. I buy models after...

My mortgage is paid.
I've put 10% towards retirement savings.
I've put 20% towards short-term savings
My utilities & other bills are paid.
My credit cards are paid off.
My food is budgeted for the month.

Only after all of the above do I think about entertainment spending, which is what hobbies are. That's "perspective". Some people here seem to think that toy soldiers are a right or a necessity. They're not. You'd be better off complaining about how the price of gasoline is up 35% over last year, or that essentials like milk, coffee, and beef are all up over 10% from their prices last year. (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics). That's "perspective".


As another thought, if you're not doing the above. If you're buying toy soldiers on a credit card, if you're paying 20% interest on your entertainment. Maybe you're the reason that prices got so high to begin with. Maybe you should drop out of the hobby because it's too expensive. Quite possibly, people continuing to by models in excess of their means is skewing the supply-demand points? Possibly, not quitting when the prices get to high leads the GW executives to continue to believe that the market is price insensitive. They're only going to learn where the breaking point is when people break, and if people are going into debt to continue their habit, well, maybe that's why the prices are so high.

Or it could just be international prices. Someone in another one of these pricing threads had a link to an article that was saying the price of raw plastic is up like 75% (number might be off). If it costs more to make a land raider, it stands to reason that it costs more to buy one.

carmachu wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
On some specific models. Other items have no increase at all. What is the overall increase? Not 25%, I know that much.

Overall doesnt match inflation.

Did you compute this, I'm curious as to what the actual overall increase is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alastair78 wrote:2 thoughts,

1. All this pricing furor is taking focus away from the games imbalances written into it by multiple codex writers.

Too true. I'm much more upset about stupidly written rules than I am about having to drop another $4 on a battlewagon.

For all the points you make, you fail to realize that by "bankrupting people" I was speaking in a figurative case. OBVIOUSLY, nobody should be buying garbage like toy soldiers before they buy their bread and butter (again, don't take me literally on that, chief - it's a figure of speech). OBVIOUSLY, you have to have disposable income before you can intelligently purchase anything extraneous to the essentials of survival.

You think I am a moron or are you just having a bad day?

Furthermore, prices of plastics be damned. Go into a toy store, pick one, gather up a random assortment of plastic toys. See how many you can pile up before they equal the cost of a land raider. This is another ridiculous excuse made by those looking for reasons to defend the disproportionate cost of this hobby. If GW can't afford to do business the way they do, they need to alter their business model. You can stand by your "perspective" all that you desire, "sir," but in the end when the masses can no longer afford this hobby, you'll be playing by yourself - or perhaps with all of your well-to-do friends with their homes paid for, living debt free. You are the minority there, and lucky you, with all that money it must be nice to stick it to people who have to make do with less, those that are burned by price hikes more than you. The people that DO pay all of their bills, provide for their families, and otherwise cover their responsibilities but haven't the sweet swollen mound of bloody money that you sit upon to buy your overpriced wares with reckless abandon. Those people that would only like to have a little more for a little less so they can enjoy their hobby of so many years without having to spend the majority of their disposable income on a hobby that shouldn't be bleeding them as much as it now is.

Clearly you lack perspective as your arrogance is unfounded.

Rather than guessing inflation as many people citing it are, look it up.

Who's guessing? I'm using a figure of about 4% for England, more like 3% in the US. The US is pretty consistently 3%. I looked those numbers up. I happened to go here:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi

Comparing former retail prices to a deal that you can currently find is far from useful as a metric for debate.

Yeah, except that it's actually from a store that lists the GW MSRP, and then their discounted price, and I noted that it was roughly in line with the discounted prices I was seeing online. So, while I understand your objection, rest assured that I accounted for it.

But, regardless, we have a much more comprehensive effort from Ivan Isaaks, which concludes: "Overall the rise in those 9 years is 40ish%."

I'm sure there's some reason he's not right either... But, regardless, this is a rate of increase that outstrips inflation, but not by much.

If nothing else, I think it's worth noting that the Devilfish has remained the same price for 5 years, and you don't hear ANYBODY loudly screeching about what a great company GW is for keeping that particular price flat. It just doesn't seem like any of the people complaining about the prices are even capable of registering that some kits have effectively DECREASED in price for the last 5 years. It's not something they're even capable of internalizing.

Again, you're hopelessly focused on the incremental.

Ok, let's compare to other injection molded kits of similar size? A 1/32 scale Spitfire is about 30cm long, roughly the size of a Valkyrie. A Valkyrie can be had on Amazon for $53.

http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Guard-Plastic-Valkyrie-Warhammer/dp/B00274PJJO

Now, some Spitfires:

Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/1-32-Supermarine-Spitfire-Mk-Ixc/dp/B002PHZ024/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1306111686&sr=1-1

That's $122.

Here's another: http://www.amazon.com/Revell-RVLS4704-Spitfire-MK-22-24/dp/B000L3GLOU/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1306111686&sr=1-3-fkmr1

That's $24.50.

http://www.amazon.com/Unimax-Forces-Valor-Scale-Spitfire/dp/B000BLFEZ4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1306112039&sr=1-2

That's $62.

In general, the prices are all over the map, but compare pretty directly with the Valkyrie.

So, I don't think that demonstrates a "hopeless focus on the incremental" on my part, so much as a "hopeless presupposition of a conclusion" on your part.

Also, the incremental angle is quite relevant, as it's what one would look at when making the argument "I used to be willing to pay the prices, but now I am not." Comparing the prices of GW kits to some other, vaguely similar product only goes so far. It's much more useful to compare them to what one is willing to pay. And, really, why would anybody be in this debate if they weren't willing to pay the prices at some point in time?

This is an unsustainable business model for GW and sooner or later the bottom is going to drop out as the prices reach critical mass and the exodus ensues.

I hear a lot of this from people who probably don't have an MBA, but if I recall correctly the latest financial reports from GW have been pretty positive. I could be wrong on that, but the last time I paid attention, their profits were increasing, and they had paid off significant debt amassed while improving their technology base.

Their stock price has shown decent performance over the last two years, and through a particularly terrible economic period as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red herring. Stop trying to deflect. Ammo has nothing to do with miniature gaming.

You realize that you just read a half dozen posts that had points that significantly undermine your argument, and you chose instead to cherry pick one point I made almost entirely in jest?

Hint: no, you don't realize that, otherwise you wouldn't have done it.

Any money against it being above the inflation rate?

I think we've established pretty conclusively that it's maybe 2% over inflation.

From there, one has to ask, is there any valid reason the prices should go up more than inflation? And that's why my ammo comment wasn't entirely in jest. The reason ammo prices went up so high, and why there was a temporary lack of availability, is because metal prices were high and remained high, and ammunition manufacturers put off purchasing, hoping prices would come down. Eventually they had to buy to keep operating, and prices were correspondingly high.

If a company doesn't raise prices in line with inflation, they're LOWERING prices.

If a company raises prices only slightly more than inflation, but also happens to make heavy use of a commodity which is going up in price, then they're simply responding to market realities.

Nobody has demonstrated that GW is doing anything more than that, and yet many people feel perfectly justified at assigning GW with nefarious intentions and attacking their morality, business sense, etc. I think those sorts of emotional attacks strongly correlate with the critical thinking skills of the people making them.

Phryxis wrote:

Rather than guessing inflation as many people citing it are, look it up.

Who's guessing? I'm using a figure of about 4% for England, more like 3% in the US. The US is pretty consistently 3%. I looked those numbers up. I happened to go here:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi

Comparing former retail prices to a deal that you can currently find is far from useful as a metric for debate.

Yeah, except that it's actually from a store that lists the GW MSRP, and then their discounted price, and I noted that it was roughly in line with the discounted prices I was seeing online. So, while I understand your objection, rest assured that I accounted for it.

But, regardless, we have a much more comprehensive effort from Ivan Isaaks, which concludes: "Overall the rise in those 9 years is 40ish%."

I'm sure there's some reason he's not right either... But, regardless, this is a rate of increase that outstrips inflation, but not by much.

If nothing else, I think it's worth noting that the Devilfish has remained the same price for 5 years, and you don't hear ANYBODY loudly screeching about what a great company GW is for keeping that particular price flat. It just doesn't seem like any of the people complaining about the prices are even capable of registering that some kits have effectively DECREASED in price for the last 5 years. It's not something they're even capable of internalizing.

Again, you're hopelessly focused on the incremental.

Ok, let's compare to other injection molded kits of similar size? A 1/32 scale Spitfire is about 30cm long, roughly the size of a Valkyrie. A Valkyrie can be had on Amazon for $53.

http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Guard-Plastic-Valkyrie-Warhammer/dp/B00274PJJO

Now, some Spitfires:

Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/1-32-Supermarine-Spitfire-Mk-Ixc/dp/B002PHZ024/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1306111686&sr=1-1

That's $122.

Here's another: http://www.amazon.com/Revell-RVLS4704-Spitfire-MK-22-24/dp/B000L3GLOU/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1306111686&sr=1-3-fkmr1

That's $24.50.

http://www.amazon.com/Unimax-Forces-Valor-Scale-Spitfire/dp/B000BLFEZ4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1306112039&sr=1-2

That's $62.

In general, the prices are all over the map, but compare pretty directly with the Valkyrie.

So, I don't think that demonstrates a "hopeless focus on the incremental" on my part, so much as a "hopeless presupposition of a conclusion" on your part.

Also, the incremental angle is quite relevant, as it's what one would look at when making the argument "I used to be willing to pay the prices, but now I am not." Comparing the prices of GW kits to some other, vaguely similar product only goes so far. It's much more useful to compare them to what one is willing to pay. And, really, why would anybody be in this debate if they weren't willing to pay the prices at some point in time?

This is an unsustainable business model for GW and sooner or later the bottom is going to drop out as the prices reach critical mass and the exodus ensues.

I hear a lot of this from people who probably don't have an MBA, but if I recall correctly the latest financial reports from GW have been pretty positive. I could be wrong on that, but the last time I paid attention, their profits were increasing, and they had paid off significant debt amassed while improving their technology base.

Their stock price has shown decent performance over the last two years, and through a particularly terrible economic period as well.

Good for you, you've cherry picked some plastic model kits that coincide with your points. I just found literally 3 dozen 1/32 kits that range from $12.99 to upwards of $149.99 - whats your point? Oh, you want proof? Here ya go: http://www.ehobbies.com/models-aircraft-glue-kits.html

Who needs an MBA to use common sense? You think teenage boys will have thousands to spend on warhammer or furthermore the attention span to stick with the hobby long enough to see an army through when everything costs more than instant gratification? Their stock price is floating on their yearly price hikes. I would have no problem if every model in the range went up slightly, but some are going up far more than $3-$4 - almost arbitrarily at that. Couple the annual price hikes with the garbage they've pulled on the southern hemisphere, link that up with massive staffing cuts that have left a documented decrease in sales (don't take my word for it: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/19244.html), and everything else they've done to stop the short term bleeding, and eventually we'll see those stock prices fall as the revenue steam does. Amazing how there will be a correlation to match.

I don't care if you believe me, I don't care if you dislike me - time will tell who is correct, and eventually you'll see GW will either alter course to respond to a failing model, or they and their shareholders are truly in for a rough ride.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And before you dig into that article and go "Haha, even the article you cited talks about a recent upswing in sales" note that is all before this recent fallout in the community and the effect many disenfranchised consumers will leave as they cut back on their purchases from the company. Am I saying GW is doomed to die tomorrow? Nope. I am saying they're not on a very good course, and if they continue this way, they'll either force themselves out of their own targeted demographic, or they'll force themselves to eventually alter their retail architecture.

Thrax wrote:
You think I am a moron or are you just having a bad day?

Well, neither initially, but after your last post, definitely the former

Furthermore, prices of plastics be damned. Go into a toy store, pick one, gather up a random assortment of plastic toys. See how many you can pile up before they equal the cost of a land raider.

The price of plastic isn't irrelevant. Random toys at a toy store - prices all over the map. Lego... yeah, that's actually fairly comparable to GW stuff. Here's a new lego model that's $90 for a truck and a few men: http://shop.lego.com/ByTheme/Product.aspx?p=7066&cn=738&d=70

Here's a random star wars toy - first link that came up when I typed Star Wars on Amazon toys: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Clone-Starfighter-Vehicle/dp/B003A6JLII/ref=pd_sim_t_4. $54. Here's another http://www.amazon.com/Animated-Action-Figure-Flamethrower-Trooper/dp/B0041HQSH2/ref=pd_sbs_t_1 - $16 for a single action figure.

As a previous poster noted, looking for scale models, they're relatively similar in price too. Yeah, you want cheap crappy plastic toys, you can find them. But if you want anything 'nice', especially anything with any sort of IP behind it (rather than the generic "yellow truck"), you're looking at similar prices.

This is another ridiculous excuse made by those looking for reasons to defend the disproportionate cost of this hobby.

Disproportionate compared to what, exactly. I think the links above should show you that the cost of this hobby is not disproportionate to that of other quality toys.

... class warfare rant ...
Clearly you lack perspective as your arrogance is unfounded.

My arrogance? Did you read what you wrote? Sorry, I don't have piles of bloody money, but I do know something about how to budget. You're trying to turn this into class warfare. Are you next going to demand that golf courses open up to the "masses" as well. Are you going to expect that Ferrari produce cars for the "masses"? Do "the masses" deserve luxury boxes at NFL games and courtside seats at the NBA finals? Do you know anything about GWs internal financial situation? On what basis, other than "I want more for less" are you claiming that they don't know how to run their business correctly?

I don't have any of their financial data. But I'm willing to bet that, as a public company, run by professionals with training in business operations, and twenty-plus years experience in this marketplace, they know not only what they're doing, but also why they need to. They're not ignoring the price of plastic. They're not ignoring that their employees need to eat. So while you want more for less, do you really believe that these people are completely incompetent, or unaware of market pressures? Do you really think they failed business 101, and are unable to appropriately price their merchandise? Yes, maybe more people could afford it if it were cheaper. But it might be that it's unprofitable to sell for less. You can't sell at a loss and hope to make it up in volume, you know.

Good for you, you've cherry picked some plastic model kits that coincide with your points.

I did? I'm pretty sure I listed one that was cheaper, one that was much more expensive, and one that was similar. How is that "cherry picking?"

Who needs an MBA to use common sense?

Aha. Apparently you feel it requires nothing but "common sense" to operating a multi-million dollar company?

The thing is, GW is a company that has been around for 20+ years, which turns a profit, and which employs dozens of people. Put simply, it's management has far more credibility than somebody who thinks "common sense" dictates that they're going to go out of business.

I'm not really sure what you're claiming is happening, or will happen, because, in general, people with your style of argumentation don't like to make any substantive, tangible claims, but if you're suggesting that GW is going out of business over the next few years, that's something I'd love to take a wager on.

And, quite frankly, if "bottom dropping out" and "mass exodus," and "unsustainable" doesn't mean that GW either goes out of business, or significantly reduces prices (as you seem to think would benefit them), then wouldn't that make you completely wrong?

Here, I'll make a prediction: GW will continue to raise their prices at roughly the same rate they are now (about 4.5% a year), and will still have the largest market share in the industry two years from now.

Care to disagree with that?

And, let me ask this as well: Are you of the opinion that if GW reduced their prices to, say, the same dollar amounts they had in 2005, that their profits would increase?

mikhaila wrote:

Hellfury wrote:GW are not keeping up with the industry. GW are the reason why the industry is priced the way it is today.

Well, that and a 400% increase in the cost of metal over the last 5 years, plus soaring fuel prices which affect several aspects of manufacturing and shipping the product.)

Mikhaila, as a retailer I am sure you understand that this happened long before such was part of todays reality. Nowadays it is just part of the realities of manufacturing in tin amalgam and shipping that heavy crap everywhere.

Well this will be interesting to see if this happens down in Oz as held/seen the price increases for us, some of the models are $10 up on the metal stock.

But just maybe they have listened to everyone having cheese and whine and just maybe thought "hmm - let's keep the prices the same". One can only hope that is true but like all things, I'll believe it when I see it.

Kanluwen wrote:And those sales numbers decreasing coincide nicely with the 'popping' of the aptly named "Lord of the Rings Bubble".

Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

It's also been 5 years since then, so how long are you going to cling onto the notion that the LOTR bubble burst from five years ago is the reason for GW's current monetary woes?

Redbeard wrote:

Thrax wrote:
You think I am a moron or are you just having a bad day?

Well, neither initially, but after your last post, definitely the former

Furthermore, prices of plastics be damned. Go into a toy store, pick one, gather up a random assortment of plastic toys. See how many you can pile up before they equal the cost of a land raider.

The price of plastic isn't irrelevant. Random toys at a toy store - prices all over the map. Lego... yeah, that's actually fairly comparable to GW stuff. Here's a new lego model that's $90 for a truck and a few men: http://shop.lego.com/ByTheme/Product.aspx?p=7066&cn=738&d=70

Here's a random star wars toy - first link that came up when I typed Star Wars on Amazon toys: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Clone-Starfighter-Vehicle/dp/B003A6JLII/ref=pd_sim_t_4. $54. Here's another http://www.amazon.com/Animated-Action-Figure-Flamethrower-Trooper/dp/B0041HQSH2/ref=pd_sbs_t_1 - $16 for a single action figure.

As a previous poster noted, looking for scale models, they're relatively similar in price too. Yeah, you want cheap crappy plastic toys, you can find them. But if you want anything 'nice', especially anything with any sort of IP behind it (rather than the generic "yellow truck"), you're looking at similar prices.

This is another ridiculous excuse made by those looking for reasons to defend the disproportionate cost of this hobby.

Disproportionate compared to what, exactly. I think the links above should show you that the cost of this hobby is not disproportionate to that of other quality toys.

... class warfare rant ...
Clearly you lack perspective as your arrogance is unfounded.

My arrogance? Did you read what you wrote? Sorry, I don't have piles of bloody money, but I do know something about how to budget. You're trying to turn this into class warfare. Are you next going to demand that golf courses open up to the "masses" as well. Are you going to expect that Ferrari produce cars for the "masses"? Do "the masses" deserve luxury boxes at NFL games and courtside seats at the NBA finals? Do you know anything about GWs internal financial situation? On what basis, other than "I want more for less" are you claiming that they don't know how to run their business correctly?

I don't have any of their financial data. But I'm willing to bet that, as a public company, run by professionals with training in business operations, and twenty-plus years experience in this marketplace, they know not only what they're doing, but also why they need to. They're not ignoring the price of plastic. They're not ignoring that their employees need to eat. So while you want more for less, do you really believe that these people are completely incompetent, or unaware of market pressures? Do you really think they failed business 101, and are unable to appropriately price their merchandise? Yes, maybe more people could afford it if it were cheaper. But it might be that it's unprofitable to sell for less. You can't sell at a loss and hope to make it up in volume, you know.

You're charming, pal. Love how you accuse me of trying to turn this into class warfare when in all actuality I am advocating for my fellow hobbyists - clearly something you've got a problem with. You sound like a politician the way you try to characterize a tabletop game as being on par with a high-class luxury item such as a ferrari or box seats for major league sports. That, to me, alludes to your own viewpoints on class. And I don't care about your golf course, bud - I hate golf - father swore by it, never could stand it - but that's irrelevant. I also like how you undermine the motivations of myself and many here with similar viewpoints by characterizing us as a bunch of whiners that want stuff for little to nothing. I've been in the hobby since 1990, I've paid a lot of money for the little pieces of plastic I paint - for years I did so without any contempt. However, there comes a point where the prices become a concern and things need to be given serious thought. GW, for all their alleged marketing brilliance and business acumen (your impression, not mine) have been making rather drastic moves the last couple of years that lead myself and a LOT of other people to question the competence of their current business model - this isn't simply about annual price rises either, there's much more to it than that - clearly you needn't look far in this forum to see this. Their financial numbers aren't what concern most people - it's the effect their business practices have had on the accessibility of the hobby for a great many people.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And those sales numbers decreasing coincide nicely with the 'popping' of the aptly named "Lord of the Rings Bubble".

Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

It's also been 5 years since then, so how long are you going to cling onto the notion that the LOTR bubble burst from five years ago is the reason for GW's current monetary woes?

There's no "clinging onto the notion".

It, as Kilkrazy said, hid the rot that was already starting to occur.
Their sales figures have been diminishing since the popping of the LOTR bubble. They were diminishing even before the LOTR bubble.

The problem is, of course, that the management that we have now is hoping for another bubble. It's likely going to happen with "The Hobbit", but hopefully they don't get stupid in regards to that and point to it as "CLEARLY THIS IS WHAT OUR FIGURES SHOULD ALWAYS BE!".

Phryxis wrote:

Good for you, you've cherry picked some plastic model kits that coincide with your points.

I did? I'm pretty sure I listed one that was cheaper, one that was much more expensive, and one that was similar. How is that "cherry picking?"

Who needs an MBA to use common sense?

Aha. Apparently you feel it requires nothing but "common sense" to operating a multi-million dollar company?

The thing is, GW is a company that has been around for 20+ years, which turns a profit, and which employs dozens of people. Put simply, it's management has far more credibility than somebody who thinks "common sense" dictates that they're going to go out of business.

I'm not really sure what you're claiming is happening, or will happen, because, in general, people with your style of argumentation don't like to make any substantive, tangible claims, but if you're suggesting that GW is going out of business over the next few years, that's something I'd love to take a wager on.

And, quite frankly, if "bottom dropping out" and "mass exodus," and "unsustainable" doesn't mean that GW either goes out of business, or significantly reduces prices (as you seem to think would benefit them), then wouldn't that make you completely wrong?

Here, I'll make a prediction: GW will continue to raise their prices at roughly the same rate they are now (about 4.5% a year), and will still have the largest market share in the industry two years from now.

Care to disagree with that?

And, let me ask this as well: Are you of the opinion that if GW reduced their prices to, say, the same dollar amounts they had in 2005, that their profits would increase?

I don't give a damn what you think of my credibility either, who made your opinion credible, anyways? My "claims" are the fact that a lot of people are out there, upset over the fact that they cannot afford to be as involved in the hobby as they used to be - my "claims" are that this is not good for the future of the hobby as it's going to not only be detrimental to sales, it's going to prevent a lot of people from creating growth in the hobby as they'll be spending less, looking elseware for their gaming, etc. I don't care to play games with your predictions either, I honestly don't care if you agree with me or not. I have NEVER stated: "OMFG GW needs to LOWER PRICES immediately!! OMGZ it's all gonna end!" I have been consistent in saying that their model of business is going to lead the hobby into a crappy direction as more people get out of it and scale back their purchases as a result of the events we see again and again. Heh, you love your abrasive little questions, don't you?

Phryxis wrote:

4% inflation justifies a 17% price increase how?

Are GW prices increasing by 17% a year? My impression is that these price hikes only come along every 2-3 years.

Even if that's not the case, people are describing hikes of 5% in some cases, more in others. My point is that 4% a year is, essentially, "holding steady."

.

UK inflation was running under 2% a year for much of the decade preceding the global financial crisis.

I am both upset that they hiking their prices and upset that now they tell me where am i allowed to buy.

On the flip side, if we agree to a 50% price increase total since 2005 (6 years ago, meaning about 20 bucks for 10 marines then 30 now) i am glad to see that their sales numbers dropped about 20%, and this was with out the high quality plastic competition that is in the horizon. I think 1 or 2 more years of this should get the message across.

Phryxis wrote:

4% inflation justifies a 17% price increase how?

Are GW prices increasing by 17% a year? My impression is that these price hikes only come along every 2-3 years.

Even if that's not the case, people are describing hikes of 5% in some cases, more in others. My point is that 4% a year is, essentially, "holding steady."

People can claim that they're TOTALLY factoring in inflation when they register their loudly enraged complaints, but I never seem to see the phrase "adjusted for inflation," and instead I see a lot of this:

I find it sad you dont seem to understand whats going on. Hell I dont think you even understand inflation at all.

Right, good point, I'm pretty sure that level of hostility is completely justified.

Yeah, the problem with that is that the economies of most industrialized nations contracted a couple of points last year yet GW still raised prices...holding steady, that isn't.

Thrax wrote:
You're charming, pal. Love how you accuse me of trying to turn this into class warfare when in all actuality I am advocating for my fellow hobbyists - clearly something you've got a problem with.

I have nothing against advocating for other hobbyists. I have issues with people with little to no data, and seemingly no understanding of bigger-picture issues making poorly thought-out commentary. You have constantly made claims that other toys are not similarly priced, while ignoring the fact that several of us have shown you links that prove that they are. You have made comments stating that the cost of the hobby is disproportionate. I don't think you know what that word means. Disproportionate to what?

If Mikhaila were making these statements, I'd respect his position. He has more data. And, yet, what he has said in this thread, and others, is that GW products are selling very well in his store, and he's expanding. You, however, have no credibility and no data. You're making unfounded claims and ignoring real-world data that others are presenting. You're living in fantasy land. You want more for less. I'm sure we all do, but we live in reality.

You sound like a politician the way you try to characterize a tabletop game as being on par with a high-class luxury item such as a ferrari or box seats for major league sports. That, to me, alludes to your own viewpoints on class. ... I've been in the hobby since 1990

I haven't been in the hobby since 1990. In 1990, I was in college. I had little money, and what I did have wasn't spent on toy soldiers. Believing that one should spend within one's means is not classist, it's realistic. And the comparisons to luxury goods also has nothing to do with class, but the general concept that no one deserves anything. If you can afford something, good for you. If you cannot, you do without. That's life. If more people understood that, we wouldn't be in the recession we're in.

I also like how you undermine the motivations of myself and many here with similar viewpoints by characterizing us as a bunch of whiners that want stuff for little to nothing.

I am not characterizing you as a whiner who wants stuff for little. I'm characterizing you as ignorant of the details and not in a position to make claims about how a company should be run. I'm also characterizing you, specifically, as being willfully ignorant of market factors that myself and others have discussed. Your take on these has been "Furthermore, prices of plastics be damned." Clearly, willful ignorance advances this discussion.

Their financial numbers aren't what concern most people - it's the effect their business practices have had on the accessibility of the hobby for a great many people.

I realize this as well. I am willing to believe that the people running GW are smart enough to realize that a hobby like this lives and dies based on participation. What you seem to be discounting is that they may not have a choice. As I said before, you cannot sell at a loss and make it up in volume. I'm sure they'd like to attract more new customers. But if the prices of raw materials and the costs of their salaries don't allow that, what are they supposed to do? You do not have the data. You are making unfounded claims about what they should change without considering whether doing so is a realistic business move. Companies need to make money. If they fail to do that, they quickly cease to exist. They've managed to figure that out for 20+ years now. Perhaps you should give them a little credit.

This post is nonsense, and I can't believe it hasn't been mod-locked/deleted yet.

Rumors of the same pricing just as they announce a price hike as high as 25% for some stuff? Yea...

The rumor was the same pricing for finecast items only... not that I necessarily believe it, but it'd certainly be nice.

RiTides wrote:The rumor was the same pricing for finecast items only... not that I necessarily believe it, but it'd certainly be nice.

Yes, they will be the same price as the stuff that just became more expensive.

Redbeard wrote:I realize this as well. I am willing to believe that the people running GW are smart enough to realize that a hobby like this lives and dies based on participation. What you seem to be discounting is that they may not have a choice. As I said before, you cannot sell at a loss and make it up in volume. I'm sure they'd like to attract more new customers. But if the prices of raw materials and the costs of their salaries don't allow that, what are they supposed to do? You do not have the data. You are making unfounded claims about what they should change without considering whether doing so is a realistic business move. Companies need to make money. If they fail to do that, they quickly cease to exist. They've managed to figure that out for 20+ years now. Perhaps you should give them a little credit.

Many companies sell one or two products at a loss and sell complementary products for profit - see printers+ink, razors+blades, the entire concept of loss-leaders. GW should be selling AOBR, IOB, and perhaps even battleforces as loss-leaders, or at least for minimal profit, to attract customers. Rulebooks and Codices also. But they seem determined to make people pay for what other business would be happy to give away for free; "to use this product, you MUST also buy this product for $95".
Looking at GW's financials, the vast majority of their costs are their retail stores. These stores, for the most part, aren't making money. They are using their sales on models to support these stores. Their entire store premise is as advertising, and the spend about 2/3 of their annual budget running this advertising. At some point, a savvy business owner should realise that their stores aren't nearly bringing in enough new sales to justify their continued expense. Furthermore, they are continuously cutting staff (so the stores provide less of a service and therefore less sales) but the real cost of the store is rent.
To bring this back to finecast: GW is (or should be) drastically decreasing their production costs. I don't know anything much about the price of resin, but lets say it costs 10% of metal for the same volume. They're now saving 90% on their most expensive per-model lines. Surely this would be directly and quickly reflected in their financial statements. GW should also be saving considerably on shipping costs after switching to resin.

GW isn't 'quick;y' ceasing to exist. More like, they are slowly dying. It is clear that their sales volume is steadily decreasing; profits remain the same, which keeps the company afloat, but participation is what makes the game successful. GW may well have pushed themselves over equilibrium point here which will lead to a drastic drop in sales.

withershadow wrote:This post is nonsense, and I can't believe it hasn't been mod-locked/deleted yet.

Rumors of the same pricing just as they announce a price hike as high as 25% for some stuff? Yea...

I agree with you, withershadow, but not simply because I'd like to get the arrogant trolls off my case. I agree because there are clearly some people who feel the need to attack others across the board and empower themselves through talking smack to people and turn a spirited conversation into a personal attack due to their own beliefs and their distaste for people they disagree with.

Redbeard: Your issues with me are inconsequential. I don't care what you think, who you find credible, or how you feel about GW. I am here to make my case, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Disagree, that's cool. That's your right. Insult me, that's cool too, because it doesn't bother me a damn bit. Call BS on my points, doesn't matter. Keep baiting me into playing your tit-for-tat games, whatever man, I truthfully don't care if I don't win your little arguments because your viewpoint is filled with arrogant assumptions whether you ever admit it or not. By your own admittance you haven't got proof in the way of GWs corporate figures to back up what is good or not good for them. You think you can cut me down and silence my points by insinuating that they're only going to be valid if I run a game shop or work at GW HQ, but truth be told - nobody much cares. I honestly don't give a damn at all if you trip over this - I don't like what is going on in GW's latest trends, and I will speak on my own behalf, and on the account of the many thousands of others that agree with me. I don't care if the little presentation you expect me make here is filled with "real world data" or not because I am not here to please you and win you over. I am not here to jump through your little credibility hoops or sate your need for an ego-stroke.

What GW is doing, contrived via market forces or not, is taking it's toll on this hobby and the disconnect between people like you and I is case in point. It's not unique, all over the forums across the net this drama is playing out because GW has pissed people off. If you like it, cool, more power to you. I don't, and I don't have to. And honestly, apologists and fanboys like you that cling to such radical justifications for what is going are the ones who seem most likely to be living in "fantasy land."

I'm not going to devote any more time to entertaining your ego, feel free to respond to this if you like - bait, bait, bait, and bait me, I'm done with you. Your continued presence here, with all the negativity you're bringing in on a personal level is definitive proof that you're a real "winner" bud - keep on trolling and hating on people when they state their views, I'm sure the community appreciates it.

The reality stands - people are angry with GW, and no matter how that makes you feel, no matter what you think about it - it is fact, and it's not good for the hobby.

Edited for a typo - seeya.

who made your opinion credible, anyways?

I didn't say my opinion was credible. You're questioning GW's business acumen. I'm questioning your qualifications relative to THEM, not to me. They run a multi-million dollar business. You feel that's something you can do based on "common sense."

My "claims" are the fact that a lot of people are out there, upset over the fact that they cannot afford to be as involved in the hobby as they used to be

Ok, and why is that?

You've been shown that GW plastic kits are priced similarly to other plastic kits.

You've been shown that the price of GW kits has only slightly outpaced inflation.

I'm not going to tell people that they can or can't afford something. Let's assume they genuinely can't. If that's the case, then everything I'm seeing indicates that this has more to do with a general financial downturn, changing priorities in their life, etc.

Please look at what you're saying. You're irritated that we're talking about the change of prices over time, but then you restate your central argument as being about the change of prices over time.

I have been consistent in saying that their model of business is going to lead the hobby into a crappy direction as more people get out of it and scale back their purchases as a result of the events we see again and again.

Instead of going to one of the numerous other options for miniatures gaming? Or are all those companies just as evil, shortsighted and otherwise inferior to you in business acumen? Sounds to me like it's past time for you to start your own company, and eat those guys' lunch.

Heh, you love your abrasive little questions, don't you?

I think you find them abrasive because I'm trying to get you to take responsibility for your own words, to actually say something specific, rather than vague, generalized anti-GW negativity.

It's really very simple.

You've been shown that GW plastic kits are priced similarly to other plastic kits.

You've been shown that the price of GW kits has only slightly outpaced inflation.

Either refute one (preferrably both) of those points, or admit you're wrong.

UK inflation was running under 2% a year for much of the decade preceding the global financial crisis.

Right, but now it's 4.5%. We can get some numbers as to what the inflation rate was in England over a given time period, but we need to know what that time period is.

We have a figure of ~40% price increase over the last 9 years. A quick google suggests the rate over that same period was about 2.5%, on average. Compounding that over 9 years, you get about 25%. That leaves about 15% over 9 years, or about a 1.67% annual increase, corrected for inflation.

Is that a lot? Does that make or break the hobby for people? I really can't believe that it does. I tend to think that these people saying "I can't afford it anymore" could afford it just fine if their priorities were the same as when they were playing more heavily.

Yeah, the problem with that is that the economies of most industrialized nations contracted a couple of points last year yet GW still raised prices...holding steady, that isn't.

GDP isn't the same as inflation. Inflation in most (all?) first world countries has continued mostly unabated for decades. It's a symptom of a credit based economy.

More like, they are slowly dying.

I would think they probably are, actually. But then I would also like to see how they're dying relative to other plastic model companies. I'd think it's much the same. The fact is, more and more entertainment is becoming virtual. People stop buying remote control cars, and they start playing Gran Turismo. People stop playing DnD and they start playing WoW. I realize it's not THE SAME, but there's overlap, and there's lost market share.

As Redbeard said, even if GW IS in decline (and I've seen no proof that they are), it's not necessarily bad management. It could simply be a case of the demise of miniatures wargaming in general. The fact that people refuse to consider that is just another demonstration of their agenda: they want to be mad at GW, they don't want to know the truth.

people are angry with GW

Yeah, and 25% of people think there's a conspiracy behind 9-11. What's your point?

I would say their precipitously-dropping sales figures are decent evidence that they are indeed in decline. They are forced to ever more desperate measures to keep themselves in the black. Firing most of their store staff last year (was that last year? all their evil blends together after a while ) helped, now they're hoping crushing the nuts of non-EU citizens that used to order from the EU will do the same (I don't think it will). I don't have any idea what they hope to accomplish with the new release schedule.

Your continued presence here, with all the negativity you're bringing in on a personal level is definitive proof that you're a real "winner" bud

This just isn't accurate. You've been as abrasive as he has, if not more. You've been FAR more negative. Your whole point is a negative commentary on GW.

The reason you feel attacked is because your arguments are being attacked effectively, and you've completely ruled out the possibility of actually listenting to what anybody else is saying. Redbeard can't be right because he's a jerk.

You're angry. You think you're being disrespected. You keep trying to say "I don't care if you agree with me." You're rejecting the very idea of logical debate. You're just saying, "I'm gonna say what I want, I don't even CARE what you say." You're plugging your ears and nyah-nyah-nyah-ing.

I'll tell you why you're angry, and Redbeard and I aren't. It's because losing is frustrating, and that's what you're doing. I'm not in the least big angry. I'm instead glad that I actually got around to learning the real info on GW's pricing increases over the time I've participated in the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I would say their precipitously-dropping sales figures are decent evidence that they are indeed in decline.

I'm seeing a lot of people claiming this is going on, but I'm not seeing any support for it. Do I have to go look this up for you as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2010/2009-10_FinalFullYearReport.pdf

Go to p59. Stop being wrong.

Gross Revenue:
2010: 126,511
2009: 125,706
2008: 110,345
2007: 109,501
2006: 114,468

Profits:
2010: 16,120
2009: 7,458
2008: 1,062
2007: (2,678)
2006: 4,524

Edit: Nevermind, I was an idiot and misread it. Sorry.

Profit is not the same as sales *volume*. Sales volume is particularly relevant to a socially based product.

2010: Cost of sales = 30.6M. 2009 Cost of sales = 35.9M
2010: Cost of Operations: 82.8M. 2009 Cost of Operations: 84.3M.
Total sales went up only 0.8M from 09 to 10. After factoring in the price increases, this is pitiful.
And the confirmation? GW doesn't ever say in the report that sales are increasing. It would be printed in big capital letters on the first page if it were true. Instead, they dodge around and say 'we're looking to get back to growth' or 'we trimmed the fat'
GW is now a more profitable business. This will only increase after Finecast. But they simply aren't attracting customers.

This thread contains no substantive information save that which duplicates discussion already underway in other threads.