Trying to figure out which of these is more outrageous, 5 metal blood knights for $90, or 5 Destors for $100. It seems to me that gw isn't the only company overcharging for models.....wonder why nobody complains about PP prices
NOTE: This poll is mainly an example, do not take it as the be all and end all choices, you can substitute the models listed for ANYTHING. Think of it as a thought experiment.
1) While individual prices are not that far off between PP and GW you need less money for a "big list" with PP due to the lower model count.
That unit of Destors is about 20% of the biggest regulary played game size, or even a third of the regular game size.
2) They feel PP (as a company) is worth the money, while GW is not. That can have many reasons, from better community contact (PP has a forum where you´ll always find some official posters) to less retail shenanigans.
To answer your question: I´d buy neither.
Edit:
Forgot a third reason.
3) You can get a discount on Destors, but not on Blood Knights. Thanks to that Destors are actually around 80,00 $ if you really want them.
Obvious hater is more obvious, come up with an opinion. Whilst I'm not a fan of price icreases, it seems to me that the price of gw stuff is being raised to.MATCH other companies. Looking at the price of steelhead cavalry, or any medium sized pp box for example, or any of the many other game co.s, Pukp City, Infinity, I find the prices only now being on par
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vimes wrote:Hm, I guess for two reasons.
1) While individual prices are not that far off between PP and GW you need less money for a "big list" with PP due to the lower model count.
That unit of Destors is about 20% of the biggest regulary played game size, or even a third of the regular game size.
2) They feel PP (as a company) is worth the money, while GW is not. That can have many reasons, from better community contact (PP has a forum where you´ll always find some official posters) to less retail shenanigans.
To answer your question: I´d buy neither.
Edit:
Forgot a third reason.
3) You can get a discount on Destors, but not on Blood Knights. Thanks to that Destors are actually around 80,00 $ if you really want them.
I don't think adding that you can buy discount is a good reason there, you can get discounts on everything these days. PP isn't that much of a lower model count, a 50 point army cam be around 30-35 models, same as a 2k marine army?
Haha true. This came up over the weekend in our store. I asked why nobody is annoyed about charging $100 for Destors, and I still haven't been given a good reason for that price for me, it does put a bit of perspective on price increase of minks from gw, and the fact that they aren't the only ones doing it is interesting
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just the only ones being slapped about it
Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company
Not what I was saying at all... but hey, keep on believing what you want to believe. But let me try and put it another way...
Neither price is worth it. The difference is GW stamps on my foot and tries to tell me that I deserved the foot-stamping or that they didn't stamp on my foot at all. PP stamps on my foot and says 'Sorry. I really wish I didn't have to do that.'.
The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.
1) While individual prices are not that far off between PP and GW you need less money for a "big list" with PP due to the lower model count.
That unit of Destors is about 20% of the biggest regulary played game size, or even a third of the regular game size.
This is the biggest load of garbage excuse I've ever heard. Who cares how much of a percentage a model is of your list? The bottom line is that we are comparing 5 lumps of metal to 5 other lumps of metal. You really believe that PP should charge more for their metal lump simply because their game requires fewer lumps to play? We gripe about GW's prices but PP is doing the same thing, and in many cases making an even larger profit margin because some of their players justify it in this way. I have seen Infinity defended in the same way. They charge as much or more per model as GW but people act like it's cool because it requires fewer models to play.
Honestly I wish there was a "Both" button offered in this poll, as both of these sets are horribly overpriced. Since there wasn't a "Both" button I voted for the Destors since they are even more outragiously priced than the VC Cav.
mikhaila wrote:The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.
Maybe I need to get my tinfoil hat checked, but I see these sort of thread as nothing more than a means to an apologist end.
It starts with a simple enough question:
"Which of these prices is more justified/outrageous?"
... which then quickly becomes:
"So both of them are equally justified/outrageous?"
... which naturally turns to:
"Therefore GW's prices are completely fine and justified and anyone complaining is just a bandwagon-ing hater!"
tl;dr version:
Pointing out the high prices of another company in no way excuses nor justifies the high prices of another.
People do not complain about Privateer because privateer respects its consumer base with constant dialogue and respect. They allowed players to shape their rules, voice their oppinions and just overall enjoy the game and hobby. Privateer is coming off as a friend. GW rubs off in a different way.
They make army books optional, the models hold more game play value than 40k models do. Every model feels like it has more 'worth' for its contributory factors for the game.
These are just many reasons why privateer customer respect the company and their prices. Not saying that PP is any cheaper because they aren't. But the biggest point is PP players do not complain (as much) or if at all and that is really saying something about consumer attitudes for a company.
Its like the apple model. High prices, but respect to their fans -- people will pay and follow.
augustus5 wrote:
This is the biggest load of garbage excuse I've ever heard. Who cares how much of a percentage a model is of your list? The bottom line is that we are comparing 5 lumps of metal to 5 other lumps of metal. You really believe that PP should charge more for their metal lump simply because their game requires fewer lumps to play? We gripe about GW's prices but PP is doing the same thing, and in many cases making an even larger profit margin because some of their players justify it in this way. I have seen Infinity defended in the same way. They charge as much or more per model as GW but people act like it's cool because it requires fewer models to play.
Well as I said, I find both equally overpriced and would buy neither, despite having grown rather fond of PP and Warmachine in the few weeks/months I´ve been playing it.
Only thing I was saying that some people MIGHT find it easier to pay 100 $ for a measly 5 models if the overall investment for a sizeable army is smaller. Not that I think that it justifies the price.
That´s actually one of the reasons why I most likely never will own a war engine for any of my Warmachine/Hordes armies. I just can´t justify payin 80 bucks for a single modell.
mikhaila wrote:The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.
Maybe I need to get my tinfoil hat checked, but I see these sort of thread as nothing more than a means to an apologist end.
It starts with a simple enough question:
"Which of these prices is more justified/outrageous?"
... which then quickly becomes:
"So both of them are equally justified/outrageous?"
... which naturally turns to:
"Therefore GW's prices are completely fine and justified and anyone complaining is just a bandwagon-ing hater!"
tl;dr version:
Pointing out the high prices of another company in no way excuses nor justifies the high prices of another.
and so you dont understand the point. I think the other posters do however. I'm trying to get to the meat of the facts, as Mihkaila points out, it affects me as a store owner, and I'd really like to know so I can better inform my customers. As I see it, the price of GW models are comparable still to other companies. Companies like Infinity which charge $12 for a model half the size of a GW one, or Spartan which is $25 or so for a ship sometimes. I'd just like to know is it REALLY the price thats causing issues? From many replies, it seems that its not. People post that PP seems "friendlier", this would probably be due to it not being controlled (to my knowledge) by shareholders, but it is not an requirement to tell customers everything, I certainly don't in my day to day.. Is it apologist to understand the facts? You just seem to be full of venom, but don't really have a COUNTER argument besides "omg apologist".
I'd like it just understood that it should NOT really be the prices that are the issue, yes they went up, yes it sucks. So did the price of gas, so did the $11 I had to pay to go to the cinema this evening (if the $10 extra you'll have to pay is that much of a bother, your in the wrong hobby) . People are really miffed about being out of the loop, but you know what? who cares, its their company, let them run it the way they want and continue to enjoy the games.
Now, the other stuff thats been going on this week........thats not so good
That´s actually one of the reasons why I most likely never will own a war engine for any of my Warmachine/Hordes armies. I just can´t justify payin 80 bucks for a single modell.
Price is actually the the main reason I never jumped into Warmachine. I really love a lot of the Cryx models but just feel that I already overpay one mini company. I don't want to overpay any others as well.
After swearing off any new GW purchases due to anger over their warnings to internet retailers to not ship to the southern hemisphere I put some of my miniature money into Malifaux. I really like the price of Wyrd's models and like the comic-book look of them as well. I'm not sure how I'll like using a deck of cards instead of dice, but I feel good about taking money I would have given to GW and putting it into another company. The models were cheap enough that I purchased a set for a friend as well, so I would be sure to have somebody to play against. I haven't seen any Malifaux games taking place at the FLGS, so I don't think there is much of a community for it here.
GalaxyGames wrote:People do not complain about Privateer because privateer respects its consumer base with constant dialogue and respect. They allowed players to shape their rules, voice their oppinions and just overall enjoy the game and hobby. Privateer is coming off as a friend. GW rubs off in a different way.
They make army books optional, the models hold more game play value than 40k models do. Every model feels like it has more 'worth' for its contributory factors for the game.
These are just many reasons why privateer customer respect the company and their prices. Not saying that PP is any cheaper because they aren't. But the biggest point is PP players do not complain (as much) or if at all and that is really saying something about consumer attitudes for a company.
Its like the apple model. High prices, but respect to their fans -- people will pay and follow.
I could really care less about how a company justifies/fails to justify their price. GW ignores their fan base by not explaining the hike and PP comes out and says nice things to their fans before bending them over. To me both companies are doing the same thing. They are both charging more than I care to pay any longer. Whether one whispers sweet nothings in my ear before raping me or the other just simply rapes me is a moot point. They're both rapists ( ).
I also disagree that this is like the Apple model. Whether they are right or wrong, people who buy Apple computers say they prefer the OS, and that Macs "just work." I don't really think respect enters into that equation at all; it's more a matter of perceived performance.
In the OP's example, I can't really see much of a difference between the Destors and the Blood Knights. Both boxes contain the same amount of figures, that are made of the same material, are about the same size, and both are mediocre sculpts at best. Neither are examples of the best work coming from either company. Yet both are priced in an out of control fashion. And the Destors are even more outrageously priced than the Blood Knights, but that's okay because PP said sorry? that!
Well, because PP models each have a lot of special rules and synnergies, comparing to the apple model PP models can have more 'perceived' performance than GWs models with little rules but just pure stats and guns.
Because of that 'perceived' performance customers feel more value added when making their purchase decisions and thus feel 'ok' to spend that cash.
In the end they are both inanimate objects - sure but in game, I feel that PP models... you feel the pinch if you lose some in game. They add tremendous army synergy.
Its just a random though though.
I agree on all points though that its not any cheap and they are both pricing their products high. I was just analyzing... or something... *shrugs*
augustus5 wrote:We gripe about GW's prices but PP is doing the same thing, and in many cases making an even larger profit margin because some of their players justify it in this way
You bring up an interesting point here, in fact the main reason I have been put off starting hordes (love the Warhog model) is that it costs a lot, much like beginning any other miniatures game. However I would like to point out the differences in scale between the two companies.
I know full well that PP is a HUGE company, however, there are some distinct differences in how they operate:
- PP (AFAIK) distributes their models ENTIRELY through the FLGS, which does mean that they reach a much smaller audience (i.e. those who tend to already go to said FLGS anyway) whereas GW has their own global chain of dedicated stores AS WELL as selling through the FLGS, a massive difference in how many people they can reach to buy their products. So whereas £30 means little to GW, that same £30 would mean a lot more to PP
- Despite changing their production methods to cut costs, GW then felt justified in raising prices. The reason for the price hike hating isn't because they are making more money for the same costs, it's because they are making EVEN MORE money for LESS costs.
The reason nobody complains about PP is because they are a much smaller company (w.r.t GW) in an already small market. They charge the same as GW, but when you take into account levels of sales, you can see the pricing logic. PP charge $100 for 5 models, GW charge $90 for 5 models, but going by economies of scale, the number of sales GW makes on those models should make it a lot cheaper, while PP are more justified in charging that $100 because they sell a hell of a lot less of them than GW would.
I think what it really boils down to is that GW used to be a lot different to what they are now, despite being much younger than most on the forums I remember when GW used to be run more like a hobby than a business. However since they went all PLC on us those in the company (such as, despite his much maligned reputation on these here forums, JJ) that still want it to be a hobby are continuously being given the kaibosh by those that just want to make money (and appease the almighty shareholders). I think if when GW went public they just distributed their shares as a free gift in every battleforce, then things would be a lot different, for the simple reason that those who controlled the company would be interested in the actual hobby, not just the money it makes.
mikhaila wrote:The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.
Maybe I need to get my tinfoil hat checked, but I see these sort of thread as nothing more than a means to an apologist end.
It starts with a simple enough question:
"Which of these prices is more justified/outrageous?"
... which then quickly becomes:
"So both of them are equally justified/outrageous?"
... which naturally turns to:
"Therefore GW's prices are completely fine and justified and anyone complaining is just a bandwagon-ing hater!"
tl;dr version:
Pointing out the high prices of another company in no way excuses nor justifies the high prices of another.
and so you dont understand the point. I think the other posters do however. I'm trying to get to the meat of the facts, as Mihkaila points out, it affects me as a store owner, and I'd really like to know so I can better inform my customers. As I see it, the price of GW models are comparable still to other companies. Companies like Infinity which charge $12 for a model half the size of a GW one, or Spartan which is $25 or so for a ship sometimes. I'd just like to know is it REALLY the price thats causing issues? From many replies, it seems that its not. People post that PP seems "friendlier", this would probably be due to it not being controlled (to my knowledge) by shareholders, but it is not an requirement to tell customers everything, I certainly don't in my day to day.. Is it apologist to understand the facts? You just seem to be full of venom, but don't really have a COUNTER argument besides "omg apologist".
I'd like it just understood that it should NOT really be the prices that are the issue, yes they went up, yes it sucks. So did the price of gas, so did the $11 I had to pay to go to the cinema this evening (if the $10 extra you'll have to pay is that much of a bother, your in the wrong hobby) . People are really miffed about being out of the loop, but you know what? who cares, its their company, let them run it the way they want and continue to enjoy the games.
Now, the other stuff thats been going on this week........thats not so good
It more than sucks if what you are paying more than doubles.
I really don't see the point of this kind of thread.
A lot of people are upset about GW. They aren't upset about PP. That's the reality
You have to assume either they have good reasons or they are getting their knickers in a twist for nothing. If they are getting their knickers in a twist for nothing, why do it at GW and not other companies.
Can we put up the price of a unit of Ogre Maneaters? How about Yeti? As much as you all enjoy (strong word here) about the price of blood knights, ogre players can pay far more for less effective models. And you get a 10% price reduction when buying the unit at once.
As for the PP cav, they're bigger and cav has a smaller demand in the market due in part to rules. Also given that I can easily purchase them at $80... I'd say their price is correct given the market for it.
Sergeant Horse wrote:Whilst I'm not a fan of price icreases, it seems to me that the price of gw stuff is being raised to.MATCH other companies.
That's just dumb, anyone can take a GW model and cherrypick an expensive alternative from another company. There's no way GW are raising prices to match their competitors and a quick look at the wider picture will tell you that. Just look at their plastics, no one charges as much as them. Most companies give you decent quality plastic figures starting as little as 50p up to about £1, yet GW regularly charge anything around £1.50-2.00 a head on plastics.
The fact is that GW is expensive right across the board on everything from paint and glue to the biggest figures. I looked around their store recently and it seemed to me that the most common price for a blister was £8.20, which usually gave you a single metal figure. Bigger more impressive metal figures were anything up to £13, but your average small metal figure was £8.20, that covered things like human-sized characters or smaller things like the jokaero.
The vast majority of companies do not have a starting price of £8.20 for a small metal figure including the smaller companies that do not get any economy of scale. Even the more expensive end of Reaper single miniatures are £6, the cheaper figures start around £3-4. Same applies to Heresy and Hasslefree and those other companies I like.
In my experience, it's a combination of a general feeling of being respected by the company selling them, the fact that cavalry generally aren't particularly amazing in the metagame lowering the demand, and that you'll only ever need a single box of them barring fairly exceptional circumstances.
Conversely, GW seems to actively cultivate a reputation for screwing its customers as often and hard as possible, and makes deathstars of cavalry like the Blood Knights at least decently effective, effectively boosting the price tag even further.
People post that PP seems "friendlier", this would probably be due to it not being controlled (to my knowledge) by shareholders, but it is not an requirement to tell customers everything, I certainly don't in my day to day.
It's less that Privateer tells customers everything, but that they actually attempt to engage in dialogue with their market. I'm sure a business owner like yourself knows the value of forming relationships with your clients: After all, a customer who actually likes your business will often go out of their way to give you their money as opposed to your less outgoing competitors. My family business gets customers and clients from as far away as Kansas City and both nearby Springfields on a regular basis for exactly that reason.
If a company alienates its customers with unexplained price hikes, a lack of friendly faces in the (metaphorical, in this case) store, and a steadfast insistence that advertising is bad for business, it's no small wonder that people complain.
The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.
Then lets look at this from another perspective mikhalia,
which of the 2 company do you think is the one in power to set the prices leading the miniature market?
You moved the goalpost in the argument. When talking about how much of you army the unit was, you switched from Vampire Counts (that's what the blood knights are from, right?) to Space Marines. That's a no no.
Comparing VC to Retribution, at proper point scales. The average game that probably 80%+ of warmachine players play is 35 points, Destors will take up 11 of those points if you take all 5. That's almost a third of the army.
Can someone comment on the point costs for a competitive build of 5 blood knights?
Then what's the average pick up game size that people play fantasy at? Are the blood knights worth it at that level? I recall hearing that blood knights can be kitted out to crazy point levels per model. But the question remains, at your average low/mid point value pickup game, are they worth it at that level?
How much will the rest of the VC army cost that goes alongside them?
The reality is, I think both units are large, complex, all metal models that there's no way they could be produced at a lower cost in metal. The destors are also in-line with PP's other prices, coming at about $20 a model for the same amount of metal, pieces, and probably more detail than similarly sized and complexity models in PPs line, and the lineups of many other models.
Comparing prices between companies / games seems weird, but okay.
The Blood Knights can be removed by an unlucky round of combat, or one of the 'uber' spells in 8th edition. At around 300 points for five models, they occupy 12% of the 'average' 2500pt fantasy list. Australians pay the equivalent of US$157.00 for a unit of five models.
The Destors have the equivalent of 5 wounds each. At 11 points of the 'average' 35 point list, they occupy 31% of your army. Australians pay the equivalent of US$91.00 for a unit of five models.
So to me, the PP models are MUCH cheaper, occupy more of the army they're part of, and last much longer in the game.
You run them with a BSB with the regen standard, a magic standard and you can throw a magic sword on the castellan. I think fully kitted they're ~500 points and damn hard to kill, hurt even worse on the charge.
Why raise prices to match another companies?
That makes no business sense. All things being equal, surely GW ought maintain the lower price, making the product more attractive in relation to PP's product?
Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?
Surtur wrote:I think fully kitted they're ~500 points and damn hard to kill, hurt even worse on the charge.
So that takes them up to being only 20% of an army. And still vulnerable to a one-spell 'sudden death' moment. And still $66.00 more expensive than the Destors.
Surtur wrote:I think fully kitted they're ~500 points and damn hard to kill, hurt even worse on the charge.
So that takes them up to being only 20% of an army. And still vulnerable to a one-spell 'sudden death' moment. And still $66.00 more expensive than the Destors.
Their stats are actually quite insane so those spells are rather ineffective and you can make your vamp lord be able to res them IIRC. I'll have to nab my friends book and double check that last one.
Surtur wrote:you can make your vamp lord be able to res them IIRC. I'll have to nab my friends book and double check that last one.
Don't bother, I have it here.
Invocation of Nehek:
"Target one of your own Undead units or characters within 18". The target unit regains D6 Wounds worth of models. Units with the Vampire or Ethereal rule, and non-infantry units, are harder to heal and only ever regain a single Wound."
So an expensive character can make them have one more wound. Which is ignored if they get Purple Sunned anyway.
Their stats don't matter when you're removing models / whole units from the table with "no saves of any kind allowed".
I think both are outrageous and would never buy either.
I have a PP army, and I have only paid full price (wincing) for a few models. The rest were got as gifts, through tournament prizes, or at half price in a sale.
Now that I am at the point where none of these are viable options anymore, I find myself looking at PP prices and shuddering. I can't justify them any more than I can some of GW's prices. The difference is GW still has a few kits that give good value for money. I could get an entire army from Mantic for around the cost of a unit+beast from Privateer, and the stubborn adherance to metal is irritating to me when it is obvious the future is plastic.
That said, PP are better at rules and public relations than GW so I LIKE them more, but I still think their stuff is overpriced. I can't see how anyone can make an argument in the opposite direction, but I think it does point out how polarised the community is when someone can't even bring this up without getting pounced on for being an apologist.
Sergeant Horse wrote:Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company
Of course we are. Don't take everyone who disagrees with you for an imbecile, it reflects badly on your part. That being said, courtesy not being necessary doesn't mean we should not take notice when a company does the bare minimum required (GW) compared with going above and beyond that in order to provide customer service (Privateer).
Besides, aren't you overlooking the obvious? Privateer Press is an American company. Buy from them and you're supporting American industry, as opposed to a bunch of foreigners. Surely that should count for something on a forum as American-populated as this?
Sergeant Horse wrote:Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company
Of course we are. Don't take everyone who disagrees with you for an imbecile, it reflects badly on your part. That being said, courtesy not being necessary doesn't mean we should not take notice when a company does the bare minimum required (GW) compared with going above and beyond that in order to provide customer service (Privateer).
Besides, aren't you overlooking the obvious? Privateer Press is an American company. Buy from them and you're supporting American industry, as opposed to a bunch of foreigners. Surely that should count for something on a forum as American-populated as this?
I'm sure I never thought that, though it's quite possible that many people might not have known that. The opposite holds true though, I'd hope people would not assume some things by my posts. I'm trying to spark conversation that is forward, rather than negative
I don't see how the American thing holds true.
1. PP models are made in China, So buying there helps you support the American office, not the industry. And gw has an American office.
2. Most people talk about how much they eBay, barter town etc. A lot of that stuff is from overseas....and it makes a mockery of supporting American industry when people won't even support American locality.
Let's see... PP says sorry for price increases, the models are better in-game, they are an American company and they are less overall of the size of the army...
That all seems like apologist talk to me... but I suppose it is ok to be an apologist as long as you are blindly anti-GW.
This is valid, why can a customer walk into a store and pay 100$ for one product but then get pissed off about paying 100$ for virtually the same product but from another company... Obviously the price increase cannot be the driving force the way people claim so why is it so wrong for a store owner to want to know what the line of thinking is?
Oh, because it is 'cool' to hate GW but make excuses why we should accept the exact same behavior from the other companies.
An Infinity army runs something like 150 dollars, I'm not sure how you're able to compare that to a WH Fantasy (arguably the most expensive wargame in existence) army, and somehow lump that in with PP, where an army still lies in the 300-500$ range, which is what my Venoms and Raiders cost before I even buy stuff to put inside of them.
I'm talking price on an individual model basis. How do you say game size is justification for pricing? It doesn't matter that a game is bigger or smaller, on a model to model basis, that uses same materials and is around the same size, the prices are comparable. Game size should not factor into the price f an individual model.
A 100$ model or set of models that lets you play a 1-2 hour game is going to be fundamentally different from a 100$ unit that you can't do anything with because it makes up 5% of a total army and is illegal to field on it's own.
Comparing them as lumps of raw material across the board is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, the whole reason they cost more than the typical 7.50$ish you see for a Tamiya fighter jet is because you're using them for a game system in the first place. And as a game store owner that should be pretty obvious to you - how many times a month does someone walk into your store willing to pay for a 1/18-scale replica of an entire F-16 fighter wing? Now how many times a month does someone walk into a FLGS and buy a 40k army? The value of a game piece is intrinsically linked to it's point cost - the difference between a 100$ Blood Knight unit being "Overpriced Crap at 100$" and "Necessary 100$ to start a VC army" is it's in game performance (which is complete crap, let's just get that out of the way in any thread discussing VC Blood Knights).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does Little Timmy walk into your store and you tell him he can buy a Space Marine commander box and it will be totally awesome to have him shoot a single storm bolter at his friend's SM commander over and over again? Or do you try to move armies out the door so people can play 40k?
I wouldn't pay for either one, especially when VC, and Retribution suck as bad as they do.
As for a "Justification" it all boils down to what the company in question thinks they can get for them. I see the "Praises" for PP, but I'm the skeptic that bought a five model starter set that was lofted up there as "All you need to play the game"... and the "Alternative to paying for workshop prices...."
What is the production cost, how much to materials cost, how much is sales, packaging, and distribution....
I can see that they might think they are good quality, but worth the quality of 100.00?
YMMV, but all I can see is 100 bucks thrown after bad. It's not a complete army, and your still going to end up paying the price in the end to actually have a chance to play with them.
( These tools don't even add in starter paints, brushes, or a book, included in the box or any other snacks to even make EITHER sets worth my time.)
Sergeant Horse wrote:I'm talking price on an individual model basis. How do you say game size is justification for pricing? It doesn't matter that a game is bigger or smaller, on a model to model basis, that uses same materials and is around the same size, the prices are comparable. Game size should not factor into the price f an individual model.
I have some Anima Tactics metal figures.
Their prices also seem to have risen lately, but more noticably with new models, and it does not seem to be an annual event.
The old ones seem to be pretty stable in price, but can cost around £12 each, with some under a tenner. Larger models go for £30 but that is not for me ta .
While I think that is expensive for what one gets, I can have a viable army for £50.
Admitedly it is a skirmish game, so 5 minis will get you a game. But that means a price increase does not really make a lot of difference overall on my ability to afford to play.
Adding 20% onto a small number of figures is easier to swallow, even if the taste is bitter. When you are having to pay up to 20% extra for entire units, I can understand why people get more vociferous.
Don't forget that GW are wanting bigger games with more models on the table, not sure if the same is happening with PP as I don't follow them.
I was not using game size as any sort of justification for the price of either set of models. Both are quite expensive.
I was using game size as a comparison to the role both sets of models play in their respective armies, and thus their value within their respective games.
The in-game ability of each set of models is important, when you consider use/longevity = value. One set of models (Blood Knights) takes up less space in the army, and has the potential to be removed very quickly via some uber spell. They also cost more than the Destors in $$.
My comparison was trying to be as objective as possible, contrasting the amount of "value" each set of models has in its respective game. However "value" is ultimately subjective; If you enjoy GW products and Warhammer, you will place more "value" in the Blood Knights. That doesn't make you a GW 'apologist'. If you enjoy PP products and Warmachine, you'll place more value in the Destors. That doesn't make you a PP apologist either.
nkelsch, you just seem to think everyone has to be either PRO GW or PRO PP. My stating that the Blood Knights potentially have less value than the Destors doesn't mean I "hate" GW, or "love" PP.
MikeMcSomething wrote:An Infinity army runs something like 150 dollars, I'm not sure how you're able to compare that to a WH Fantasy (arguably the most expensive wargame in existence) army, and somehow lump that in with PP, where an army still lies in the 300-500$ range, which is what my Venoms and Raiders cost before I even buy stuff to put inside of them.
warboss wrote:
sourclams wrote:By my estimation WM/H is somewhere around half price versus 40k for competitive play and it scales much more easily so getting a 15 point starter box game going versus a complete newcomer is easier than playing a 500 point equivalent in 40k.
normally, i'm the first to jump onto the gw price-bashing bandwagon but i think over the past 10 years other companies have caught up with their prices when you compare apples to apples. while i agree that the cost of entry to games like malifaux and WM is lower simply because the model count is also, the price per fig of comparable size and quality is roughly the same and sometimes more when you compare similar sets (size, quality, white metal only).
Infinity starters with 6 figs? $46 USD and up retail on the warstore. GW boxes with 5 similarly sized (see link below half way down the page) figs recently released? $29.75 for the dark eldar stuff like incubi. bulkier figs like marines (LOTD)? 5 for $35.
I can theoretically make up a minis game where you only need 2-3 minis in 28mm scale for the game and charge $50 for them together and have a "lower" barrier to entry but that doesn't mean the customer is actually getting a better deal when you compare similar items (size, quality, price). mind you, this is in no way a justification of GW's current prices, just a comparison with other popular companies to show that they have caught up or in some cases exceeded GW's price per ounce of sculpted minis. GW minis used to be hand over fist more expensive but concommitently better quality than their competitors' options; neither is really true right now.
Something I wrote a last year. Unfortunately for gamers, the industry in general has caught up with GW's pricing scheme and in some cases surpassed that. It generally doesn't get much notice as most of the games have a tiny but devoted following passionate about a small game within a small hobby niche leading to very little public dissent (which is usually shouted down by the few people that play the game... much like with GW apologists but with an added inferiority complex). The companies producing those games tend to be smaller also (a few to maybe a couple dozen full time employees) that actively and regularly engage with their respective communities and I think that helps soften the blow of ridiculous pricing. It's the difference between a friend trying to sell you a used couch for $100 and some guy on craigslist demanding that much for the same. You're don't necessarily like the couch any more but you're less willing to have sore feelings and complain about it if you buy it from a friend. Also, I don't know how the other companies handle price raises as I don't play/buy Infinity/PP/etc. Do they just stealth raise it and its just simply changed on distributor order sheets for stores without any announcement? Is the onus on a store owner or customer to notice or do they actively inform their customers (both end and store middlemen)? I personally don't like the general look of PP models so I don't buy them but I do actually like the look and style of Infinity ranges. The only reason I don't buy any is that, ounce for ounce, their models are even more expensive than GW (at least before this latest round of price raises).
As for the poll, I'm not familiar with either units. Sarge, can you post pics of the two to compare?
Sooo, because it is for a game, people should be expected to pay more... And the more useful it is in the game, the higher the prices should expected to be... which makes PP justifiable and a great value but GW a crime against the fandom.
You know if someone made this argument in defense of GW, they would be internet-lynched for being an apologist.
The realistic aspect of this is an item is worth what someone will pay. I personally won't buy either and they are not worth anything to me because I don't play PP and I don't play VCs in fantasy. But someone who does and wants to play either game may see it as 'worth something' to them.
This is why the whole 'price raises are ruining the hobby' because when we boil it down, people buy not what is cheaper, but what they find the most value out of, and frankly 'the game that everyone near me plays' is a huge part of value.
If 40k is the only game in town, then PP can be half the price and it has no value because it isn't 40k.
Not sure I am reading the same replies Nkelsch.
re read Bolo's post
In response to your last comment, it would be nice to think that but economies of scale may be a factor in determining prices.
Not saying that PP price increases are justified or not. Just tje way it works that if you are producing fewer metal figures the costs are relatively higher per unit.
People DO complain about PP price increases. I complain. There are whole forums out there who bash PP for pices, rules etc.
the only reason that COMPARATIVELY not a lot of people complain about PP online is because GW has pissed off MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of gamers over time
give PP enough time and they might have the same reputation as GW.
Bakerofish wrote:Some stuff that no one is mentioning:
People DO complain about PP price increases. I complain. There are whole forums out there who bash PP for pices, rules etc.
the only reason that COMPARATIVELY not a lot of people complain about PP online is because GW has pissed off MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of gamers over time
give PP enough time and they might have the same reputation as GW.
Thats the unspoken truth of the issue.
PP isn't any better or worse, it is just... a different alternative. As for pricing?
25.00- 50.00 is still 25 to 50.00.
Doesn't matter if someone tells you sorry, or they beat you harder for sqealing about it. It is still an increase, and your still paying more.
Emotions have nothing to do with it, it is just about the money.
We are, because of GW's rash increase, and lack of foresight, going to see an all around increase across the board, as the too kool for school kids, the upstarts, and the competition fall into line with the big kids and try to justify even more in the name of actually thinking that thier models and games are actually WORTH that price.
Are they really?
Buy a box of Warhammer guys, and then a box of Warzone guys.
Buy a box of 40K guys, and then go buy yourself a box of Void guys.
Or malstrom... or Mageknight.
How are those Starship trooper guys doing? The ones that were supposed to "be prepainted to a 80% better quality then the market...."
What about those 3d and 4th edition boxes of marines, and OP models?
Are you getting repaid back what you paid for them to the tune of 50-100.00?
What exactly are we talking about when we are talking about this product? What, Really, are we talking about when we talk about charging market value?
Who's market? and who decides the standard price?
Till we know that, we can't even compare prices, or even know what is comparable pricing.
Leave "Fair" out of the equasion, too. That word is confusing the issue. there is no such thing as "Fair Market."
It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. I could care less about the total cost to play a game. Total entry cost into a game will ultimately decide whether or not I play that game, but will have no effect on whether I feel that the price of the models is worth it in comparison to similar models. PP, for example, charges just as much and in many cases more per model than GW, yet GW is a villan and PP is the grand alternative that is the hero of the hobbyist. What a load of !
- Unit size. For one unit of Destors, I will only ever need these 5 dudes. The unit size will not increase (or rather, won't increase under the current rule set). For Blood Knights, I may want that 6th dude. If I do: I'm buying another $90 box. Yippee.
- Price expectations of a comparable unit: In warmahordes, heavy calvary has always cost around $100 for a unit. Since 2007 when they dropped. Granted, back then it was "Buy a $60 minimum unit size box, then add on $20 blisters". In WHFB, I can go buy a box of plastic Bretonians for $35 or (IMHO) better looking Chaos Knights for ~$30.
- Price changes: Destors are a bad example since they just dropped, but the price of the original calvary hasn't moved much since the initial release. Blood Knights have gone up.. what.. $15 (were they $75 originally)? And now they're made of out of a cheaper material (albeit, yes - one that potentially has better detail, but some associated downsides [toxicity, etc])?
- Overall price to play a game: Warmahordes isn't cheaper per model, but I need less models to play a game. Its cheaper via scale of game.
- Tone of respective parent companies: Granted, noone "needs" to know why companies make business decisions. But when they're forward, and apologetic, it goes a long way. IMO, PP has done a better job here.
********
tl;dr - Yes, these respective 5 hunks of metal are roughly equivilantly costed. But there's more going on here than that.
Also: Wow, the PP hate here is lulztastic. Does hating on Privateer make any of you feel better about the recent price changes or the recent rules SNAFUs? Hope so.
augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. I could care less about the total cost to play a game. Total entry cost into a game will ultimately decide whether or not I play that game, but will have no effect on whether I feel that the price of the models is worth it in comparison to similar models. PP, for example, charges just as much and in many cases more per model than GW, yet GW is a villan and PP is the grand alternative that is the hero of the hobbyist. What a load of !
Well, the thing with "worth" of something goes far beyond the actual worth of the material.
You are among the people who mainly justify the prices they´re willing to pay on a more or less purely material level. Both Destors and Blood Knights are about the same material and quality level. Going by this PP is just as bad as GW, maybe worse since they´re (in this case) slightly more expensive.
Then there´s the personal level, which most customers follow. Here factors like personal preferences, the image of a company, the personal experience, the size of the overall investment compared to the model at hand or simply the favorism of model X come together to form the decision whether or not something is worth it. Due to the most recent decisions by GW they took a hit in this level. For this reason many people can justify (to themselves) buying the Destors, but are outraged by the Blood Knights.
You have to remember: Most people are heavily influenced by not-material factors when determining the worth of something.
I don't see any privateer press hate here.
They are charging more for an equivalent product. Any defense that can be mounted for them can be spun back and used for GW. GW produce (compared to PP) cheap and versitile plastic troops. Blood Knights are a rare unit which you will certainly not see more than one of in most armies (it'd be as rare as two units of cavalry in a WM army.).
Game size and entry cost is creeping up for WM. I won't dispute, their rules are better and their release schedule makes more sense, and start up is much easier with them. And I agree, they have a better attitude towards their customers. But let's call a spade a spade- the miniatures are overpriced, and PP don't have a large retail chain to support as a "reason" for this.
Is this a reason to hate GW or PP? No. Just don't buy the stuff if it doesn't appeal to you.
augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. !
How much would you pay if all GW rules became crystal clear and unambiguous written in common terminology at the level of a technical manual with on-line Q&A from the game developers?
I find extra value in that alone. Add in that the game is fundamentally cheaper given lower model counts and when I buy a new unit I am literally buying a new and different unit, and not the same box of PAGK which will be Squad 4: equipped and painted in the same way as Squad 1-3, it doesn't bother me in the least.
augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. !
How much would you pay if all GW rules became crystal clear and unambiguous written in common terminology at the level of a technical manual with on-line Q&A from the game developers?
I find extra value in that alone. Add in that the game is fundamentally cheaper given lower model counts and when I buy a new unit I am literally buying a new and different unit, and not the same box of PAGK which will be Squad 4: equipped and painted in the same way as Squad 1-3, it doesn't bother me in the least.
are you seriously saying Infinity is crystal clear and unambiguous? wow, maybe its better translated where you are.
augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. !
How much would you pay if all GW rules became crystal clear and unambiguous written in common terminology at the level of a technical manual with on-line Q&A from the game developers?
I find extra value in that alone. Add in that the game is fundamentally cheaper given lower model counts and when I buy a new unit I am literally buying a new and different unit, and not the same box of PAGK which will be Squad 4: equipped and painted in the same way as Squad 1-3, it doesn't bother me in the least.
I wouldn't feel better at all about GW's prices no matter how good their rules are. I think GW's prices stink for the most part. I think the price of Infinity and PP models are just as bad or even worse in many cases. That doesn't mean I hate PP as McNs would suggest.
McNs wrote:@ OP - Cool Story, Bro....(bunch of other )...Wow, the PP hate here is lulztastic. Does hating on Privateer make any of you feel better about the recent price changes or the recent rules SNAFUs? Hope so.
@McNs: You said Bro!
The bottom line for me is five metal models should cost about the same as five comparatively sized metal models. In my opinion companies like GW and PP are both guilty of gouging their prices. PP fans don't seem to mind so much because they find extra value in their game, yet they feel butt-sore any time somebody brings up the fact that their models cost more, and they tend to say "Bro" more often than GW fans.(at least they aren't stooping so low as to say "brah") GW fans have no problem ripping their own company for it's pricing and feel that getting bent over without apology is about as bad as getting bent over with a nicely worded apology.
It really comes down to Latest-And-Greatest syndrome. Models don't usually crumble into dust from disuse. I recently sold a metric feth-ton of models on EBAY that I'm sure somebody is putting to good use. If you want to play miniature wargames and don't want to spend a lot of money, then convert and use older models if you're required to for tourney purposes, or switch to another range altogether.
You aren't obligated to buy these outrageously priced models, so why sweat it?
- Unit size. For one unit of Destors, I will only ever need these 5 dudes. The unit size will not increase (or rather, won't increase under the current rule set). For Blood Knights, I may want that 6th dude. If I do: I'm buying another $90 box. Yippee.
- Price expectations of a comparable unit: In warmahordes, heavy calvary has always cost around $100 for a unit. Since 2007 when they dropped. Granted, back then it was "Buy a $60 minimum unit size box, then add on $20 blisters". In WHFB, I can go buy a box of plastic Bretonians for $35 or (IMHO) better looking Chaos Knights for ~$30.
- Price changes: Destors are a bad example since they just dropped, but the price of the original calvary hasn't moved much since the initial release. Blood Knights have gone up.. what.. $15 (were they $75 originally)? And now they're made of out of a cheaper material (albeit, yes - one that potentially has better detail, but some associated downsides [toxicity, etc])?
- Overall price to play a game: Warmahordes isn't cheaper per model, but I need less models to play a game. Its cheaper via scale of game.
- Tone of respective parent companies: Granted, noone "needs" to know why companies make business decisions. But when they're forward, and apologetic, it goes a long way. IMO, PP has done a better job here.
Comparing the Destors to the Blood Knights is comparing tiny apples to full sized oranges. They are both miniatures, correct. But here's the problem. You drop $100 for the Destors, and that's it. It's 11 points for all 5 models, which will take up 1/5 of a 50 pt army, and 1/3 of a 35 pt army. There's no reason to include more than a single unit.
Now, the Blood Knights. Who, in 8th edition, takes a single unit of 5 cavalry? What can that do for you? If you want to add a Lord or Hero to that, fine - bit now the unit's over $100 dollars, since you'll never find a GW model for under $10. Apart from that, 8th Edition now encourages large units. So, you get a unit of 10 Blood Knights. Uh-oh, now that's $180. Damn, that unit's still dying to my opponent's magic/warmachines/monsters/hordes - better buy more! Now you're up to $270 for a 15 model unit!
This thread has no right to exist. This isn't a legitimate comparison.
The blood knights are, IMO, much better models, so I would justify spending more on them. Those other ones are meh, but that might be my GW-chip typing.
infinite_array wrote: This thread has no right to exist. This isn't a legitimate comparison.
It does and is. The difference is the OP is asking about the absolute value of the items in questions while you're throwing in their relative values in the armies. Someone who is simply buying the models to paint for instance (those people do exist!) doesn't care about anything you listed regarding how many points they are or whether you need to field them in groups of 6 in a lotus formation. There are even people that buy minis from various companies to use with their own rules or a third party product. They only care about the size, look, and detail of the models.
Sergeant Horse wrote:are you seriously saying Infinity is crystal clear and unambiguous? wow, maybe its better translated where you are.
Never looked at an infinity book, so my comments can only be taken regarding GWP comparisons. From what I understand of that game system, though, you're looking at entire 'armies' of about 10 models. It's never going to cost as much as GW.
Surtur wrote:I think fully kitted they're ~500 points and damn hard to kill, hurt even worse on the charge.
So that takes them up to being only 20% of an army. And still vulnerable to a one-spell 'sudden death' moment. And still $66.00 more expensive than the Destors.
500pts is a sizeable chunk if you are playing 2000 points. Also, 2000 points is more closely equal to about 40-50 points of warmachine. By that calculation then, they are quite equal if not a little bit in the Blood Knights favor.
infinite_array wrote:
This thread has no right to exist. This isn't a legitimate comparison.
It does and is. The difference is the OP is asking about the absolute value of the items in questions while you're throwing in their relative values in the armies. Someone who is simply buying the models to paint for instance (those people do exist!) doesn't care about anything you listed regarding how many points they are or whether you need to field them in groups of 6 in a lotus formation. They only care about the size, look, and detail of the models.
but isnt that how we measure value?
I mean if were going by absolute value like material cost and such theyd both be overpriced lumps of metal.
If you analyze the question a bit further youll realize the question just becomes even more moot because everyone has different ideas of "worth" and "value"
if youre going on why GW gets bashed for price increases, im just goin to repeat myself. GW has just pissed more people. period.
People complain about PP prices too. Just not as many GW complainers
Bakerofish wrote:
but isnt that how we measure value?
I mean if were going by absolute value like material cost and such theyd both be overpriced lumps of metal.
If you analyze the question a bit further youll realize the question just becomes even more moot because everyone has different ideas of "worth" and "value"
if youre going on why GW gets bashed for price increases, im just goin to repeat myself. GW has just pissed more people. period.
People complain about PP prices too. Just not as many GW complainers
Yes, it is how *SOME* people measure value. I'm just pointing out that Mr. Absolutist who doesn't believe that the thread has a right to exist because someone dares to disagree with his personal opinion is wrong. I fully expect some people to see much more value in one of the choices in the poll while others think the opposite. Some people may see equal value or see both as equally overpriced. That's the point of a poll, to find the general opinion (and that's all they are). As for PP complainers, they're a newer company relative to GW played by alot of grass-is-always-greener ex-GW players (not their only demographic but definitely one of them). Give them another 5-10 years and they'll have a bunch more ex-players of their own games complaining. Losing players is a natural process of any hobby company; it's only the rate that they can control to an extent.
Well, going simply by the price sheet on Warstore, GW stuff is amply stocked whereas PP models are almost universally out of stock or waiting on backorder.
So in the truest sense of value, i.e. what the consuming public is willing to pay, PP is much further from its price threshold than GW.
sourclams wrote:Well, going simply by the price sheet on Warstore, GW stuff is amply stocked whereas PP models are almost universally out of stock or waiting on backorder.
So in the truest sense of value, i.e. what the consuming public is willing to pay, PP is much further from its price threshold than GW.
GW may just be better at keeping up with demand...
sourclams wrote:Well, going simply by the price sheet on Warstore, GW stuff is amply stocked whereas PP models are almost universally out of stock or waiting on backorder.
So in the truest sense of value, i.e. what the consuming public is willing to pay, PP is much further from its price threshold than GW.
Wrong. If you are assuming that PP stuff is flying off of the shelves at breakneck speeds you're wrong. PP is having major issues with production and have been for sometime now. I wish them the best of luck with getting their together but GW is simply able to meet demand of it's consumers, while PP is still trying to grow to meet their consumer's demand.
Bakerofish wrote:no its not ironic. if i told you what it was id get a warning. I apologize if my sarcasm didnt transmit clearly
I do find it ironic that so many people feel good about paying $100 for five lumps of PP metal while laughing at the thought of paying $90 for five lumps of GW metal. Maybe if you didn't spend so much on PP models you'd have some moeny left over to buy some punctuation.
sourclams wrote:Well, going simply by the price sheet on Warstore, GW stuff is amply stocked whereas PP models are almost universally out of stock or waiting on backorder.
So in the truest sense of value, i.e. what the consuming public is willing to pay, PP is much further from its price threshold than GW.
While I agree that they're definitely growing as a game, you may want to PM mikhalia about their out of stock status. According to him, they devote a significant proportion of their summer production to stocking their own supplies especially in regard to popular and/or new releases for sale directly by them at GenCon (since they make more % profit there just like GW does through their own stores compared with FLGS).
augustus5 wrote:I do find it ironic that so many people feel good about paying $100 for five lumps of PP metal while laughing at the thought of paying $90 for five lumps of GW metal. Maybe if you didn't spend so much on PP models you'd have some moeny left over to buy some punctuation.
Just trying to compare models by raw material count ignores the fact that the material is having work done (read: value added) to the material itself. The only time 200grams of pewter is going to cost as much as 200grams of pewter is when a large company that can turn that pewter into something valuable (Like wargame miniatures) is buying it from a supplier.
So instead of saying they should be equivalent due to roughly equivalent materials, which is a profoundly ignorant argument, born of an almost complete lack of economics knowledge, you have to turn to the differences between the two companies (ie. both the quantitative differences between both game systems, including model count, and the qualitative differences such as perceived value and ease of locating opponents) to attempt to actually establish context, which you seem to ignore out of some bizarre need to remain ignorant.
augustus5 wrote:I do find it ironic that so many people feel good about paying $100 for five lumps of PP metal while laughing at the thought of paying $90 for five lumps of GW metal. Maybe if you didn't spend so much on PP models you'd have some moeny left over to buy some punctuation.
I wouldn't worry about my punctuation "bro". I'm off to spend my "moeny" on PP models.
The poll is largely inconsequential, its really a conversation starter, its point was to show that the difference in prices between companies isn't so different. I could substitute any GW item for them, Steam Tank (57.75, Land Raider ($66), Stormvermin (45) etc, and many PP items, New Bane Thralls ($80 for a ten man unit without the attachment), Any Battle Engine ($85).
My point is this, and it extends beyond GW/PP. The price increase in many cases brings it in line with other companies. For ex, you pay about $40 for Infinity Zalyut Zonds, thats $20 for each remote, you pay $17-$18 for a Uncharted Seas Battleship, which is majority resin, Flames of War, your regularly paying $70-$80 for a boxset. Its actually NOT more expensive model per model than other companies. Now many people will reply about buying at discounts, well thats great for you, its not relevant to the discussion.
As regards having to buying MORE models. This is literally down to game size. Sure Infinity will cost you $150 to get a 300 point army...and never cost another penny IF YOU STOP THERE. The difference is, an Infinity game is about 20-30 minutes a game, and GW game is usually over 2 hours of playtime. So you might need a bigger army, it also makes for more time spent in entertainment, theres only so many times you will reset and replay the same Infinity force in a day.
In the end, it seems people just want to be let know WHY things are happening. However, as a PLC, you will be able to find alot of the info already, and also as a PLC there is no one person giving orders, but a board that is probably fractured on views. SO, if you MUST complain, write a well worded REQUEST to know why, and understnad you probably will not receive a reply, and if you do, it will be a direct to their public statements which should show ample reasoning. You don't have to like it, but you can aim your ire in the right direction.
Also, so far, I've been called a troll, an apologist, an imbecile, and a few other names here. Its replies like some of the above that make a person wonder why they even bother to try have a discussion sometimes. Its fine to disagree with my view, but try to keep it civil when you rebuke mine, and also, try to understand it for what it actually is. Its not apologist talk, its an aim for a calm discussion to get to the root issues.
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MikeMcSomething wrote:
augustus5 wrote:I do find it ironic that so many people feel good about paying $100 for five lumps of PP metal while laughing at the thought of paying $90 for five lumps of GW metal. Maybe if you didn't spend so much on PP models you'd have some moeny left over to buy some punctuation.
Just trying to compare models by raw material count ignores the fact that the material is having work done (read: value added) to the material itself. The only time 200grams of pewter is going to cost as much as 200grams of pewter is when a large company that can turn that pewter into something valuable (Like wargame miniatures) is buying it from a supplier.
So instead of saying they should be equivalent due to roughly equivalent materials, which is a profoundly ignorant argument, born of an almost complete lack of economics knowledge, you have to turn to the differences between the two companies (ie. both the quantitative differences between both game systems, including model count, and the qualitative differences such as perceived value and ease of locating opponents) to attempt to actually establish context, which you seem to ignore out of some bizarre need to remain ignorant.
I don't understand your argument. Both models will have work done, both will need to be shipped, both need to pay designers, modellers, rules makers, packaging, etc. The difference that gets pointed out that you only use one squad of Destors........but you only need one squad of Blood Knights, you can run a second if you want to, but you CAN run a second unit of destors if you really wanted to as well....so that fact doesn't really stand up. That there is mainly game mechanics taking effect. (Also, I can't imagine a person buying another box of BK to get the 5th guy (IF YOU WANT HIM as the MIN unit is 4) when you can buy an individual blister. Should game mechanics be a reason to charge out the nose for either unit?
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EDIT
I'd also like it noted that I am a big fan of both GW and PP, their retailer support is fantastic.
augustus5 wrote:I do find it ironic that so many people feel good about paying $100 for five lumps of PP metal while laughing at the thought of paying $90 for five lumps of GW metal. Maybe if you didn't spend so much on PP models you'd have some moeny left over to buy some punctuation.
Just trying to compare models by raw material count ignores the fact that the material is having work done (read: value added) to the material itself. The only time 200grams of pewter is going to cost as much as 200grams of pewter is when a large company that can turn that pewter into something valuable (Like wargame miniatures) is buying it from a supplier.
So instead of saying they should be equivalent due to roughly equivalent materials, which is a profoundly ignorant argument, born of an almost complete lack of economics knowledge, you have to turn to the differences between the two companies (ie. both the quantitative differences between both game systems, including model count, and the qualitative differences such as perceived value and ease of locating opponents) to attempt to actually establish context, which you seem to ignore out of some bizarre need to remain ignorant.
I completely disagree. A game's system or the number of models required to play said game have no bearing on the cost to produce and ship a model. Your failure to see that is profoundly ignorant or shows an almost complete lack of economics knowledge.
There could be an argument made as to the quality of sculpt, but both the Blood Knights and Destors are mediocre sculpts at best and neither represent the higher end of sculpting from either company.
Augustus5 wrote:A game's system doesn't have any bearing on the cost to produce and ship a model.
Can you point to exact spot on this page where I said that exact thing? To my knowledge, such as pot doesn't exist, so if you could find it for me that would be great. Thanks!
So instead of saying they should be equivalent due to roughly equivalent materials, which is a profoundly ignorant argument, born of an almost complete lack of economics knowledge, you have to turn to the differences between the two companies (ie. both the quantitative differences between both game systems, including model count, and the qualitative differences such as perceived value and ease of locating opponents) to attempt to actually establish context, which you seem to ignore out of some bizarre need to remain ignorant.
I didn't know that anybody still thought GW metals were that unusually priced anymore.
Metal minis are expensive across the board.
It's the increasing cost of plastic, coupled with endless talk of increased effeciency, that really upsets most people about GW. Their metals are competitive with many other companies, with some exceptions.
So instead of saying they should be equivalent due to roughly equivalent materials, which is a profoundly ignorant argument, born of an almost complete lack of economics knowledge, you have to turn to the differences between the two companies (ie. both the quantitative differences between both game systems, including model count, and the qualitative differences such as perceived value and ease of locating opponents) to attempt to actually establish context, which you seem to ignore out of some bizarre need to remain ignorant.
See, I asked you to find where I said having a different game system makes a given chunk of metal cost more to refine (ie this game was produced under the WH fantasy banner and therefore incurs an extra 20% of costs), and instead of finding that, you found a section of a post I made where I indicated that two different companies will add differing amounts of "Value" to a given material so expecting the end product to cost the same (or for a given company to put the same amount of ''work'' into every given gram of material as another company) makes any attempts at using bulk weight before processing as any sort of barometer for the price of a model patently absurd.
(If the above was too complicated for you - you said that I said something, I asked you to find it, and you did not find it, you found something different, I will repeat, you completely failed to find what I asked you to)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote:I didn't know that anybody still thought GW metals were that unusually priced anymore.
Metal minis are expensive across the board.
It's the increasing cost of plastic, coupled with endless talk of increased effeciency, that really upsets most people about GW. Their metals are competitive with many other companies, with some exceptions.
Really, the argument is the same as with plastic. People are expecting GW plastic stuff to cost the same as (insert whoever you want here)'s plastic stuff, because a given box of plastic/resin/metal/whatever weighs the same as a given box shipped to GW. The only reason this really makes me raise an eyebrow is that even capuchin monkeys have been shown to understand product differentiation in a lab setting, so I would imagine the average Dakka poster would at least be capable of dimly clawing at an understanding of the concept.
Cost per Unit, not what we pay be what the company pay. I'm going to get a better deal printing up 1,000,000 units then 100,000 unit. Until they both start showing this cost to us, we can't be sure what the better deal is. Of course, I can guess witch one (GW or PP) prints atleast 10x-100x as much as the other company.
Polonius wrote:I didn't know that anybody still thought GW metals were that unusually priced anymore.
Metal minis are expensive across the board.
It's the increasing cost of plastic, coupled with endless talk of increased effeciency, that really upsets most people about GW. Their metals are competitive with many other companies, with some exceptions.
Really, the argument is the same as with plastic. People are expecting GW plastic stuff to cost the same as (insert whoever you want here)'s plastic stuff, because a given box of plastic/resin/metal/whatever weighs the same as a given box shipped to GW. The only reason this really makes me raise an eyebrow is that even capuchin monkeys have been shown to understand product differentiation in a lab setting, so I would imagine the average Dakka poster would at least be capable of dimly clawing at an understanding of the concept.
I don't think people expect anything, or at least reasonable people.
For the record, I have little beef with GW. I think they sell a luxury good that I can afford at the price they ask. When I stop enjoying it enough to justify the cost, I quit. Until then, I don't complain about prices.
But, and this is the but, I'm not talking about GW plastics vs. Tamiya or Mantic plastics. I'm saying that when GW makes a process more effecient (like CAD modelling), but than raises the cost of plastics (for which materials is a very small cost), it is less intuitive than the similar rise in metals.
augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. I could care less about the total cost to play a game. Total entry cost into a game will ultimately decide whether or not I play that game, but will have no effect on whether I feel that the price of the models is worth it in comparison to similar models. PP, for example, charges just as much and in many cases more per model than GW, yet GW is a villan and PP is the grand alternative that is the hero of the hobbyist. What a load of !
Again that is not what I am seeing on this thread
Am I missing something (apart from marbles, I already realise they went AWOL)
If it matters not to you how much the total cost of the game is, all well and good. That is your perogative. However it is a consideration for others which is equally fine. It is horses for courses.
The real issue here is NOT monetary value .
But percieved value for money.
I know that I am a gamer, and that well defined rules and great gamepaly makes me REALY happy .Then I percive I get MORE value for money from buying a units for this type of game.
Where as buyng a unit for a game that is used as a poor marketing tool, that will probably have units invalidated or devalued in the future to encourage more sales.Will conversly make me feel I will get far less value for money from this type of purchase.
Collectors will just buy the minatures that apeal to thier asthetic requirments.And the asthetic element is the main deciding factor for them.
Value for money is a personal judgement .It involves the long term enjoyment and use of the item, often in comparision to other similar products.
I personaly wouldnt pay that much for my minatures.(Mantic produce models in my vfm range. )
I don't think it's valid to compare "one lump of metal" to another in isolation....those lumps of metal form a bigger picture.
If you play a game that requires 5 miniatures, and another game that requires 105 miniatures (and I'm talking effective game play here!) then the cost of the miniatures is relative.
Both PP and GW design their own games. It's clear that GW has designed it's game to sell as many lumps of metal as possible, requiring each player to lay down $100s in order to play an effective force...PP hasn't gone down this road.
So while you can state that PP has the same "issues" as GW on an individual model basis, I think that statement ignores the bigger picture....
Now, if these were companies producing generic miniatures for use with other rulesets, then yeah, they're both bang out of range.....but that's not the case.
I voted destors. They make up a bigger chunk of an army but they came out almost 18 months after their faction book and are STILL in metal and expensive as all. The delay is a genuine factor in this as everyone was waiting on them and assuming PP was working out the problems in their plastics that delayed the light jacks. Oh well, two of the destor thane solos works better anyway.
Through out the years of reading what warhammer player justifies the price of miniatures to be fair ( may it be the fun process , the manufacturing process , the w/e process ) everyone have seem to agree, its justified.
Then we have Warmachine. Which falls under EVERY SINGLE points raised and justified by miniature collectors. Yet suddenly all the reasoning in this thread dismissed the justifications we have come to term with.
So which leads me to think, is it just due to plain animosity of the 2 products that the denail / justification you guys have for warhammer suddenly cease to apply to warmachines?
Long story short, the company I have some customer loyalty to gets my money.
I don't even have to begin to give reasons why PP deserves more customer loyalty than GW.
LunaHound wrote:This thread is extremely interesting.
Through out the years of reading what warhammer player justifies the price of miniatures to be fair ( may it be the fun process , the manufacturing process , the w/e process ) everyone have seem to agree, its justified.
Then we have Warmachine. Which falls under EVERY SINGLE points raised and justified by miniature collectors. Yet suddenly all the reasoning in this thread dismissed the justifications we have come to term with.
So which leads me to think, is it just due to plain animosity of the 2 products that the denail / justification you guys have for warhammer suddenly cease to apply to warmachines?
All I know is PP gets my money because I like to war game as my hobby and they treat their customers with respect. GW treats me like an idiot and I am just fed up with GW's attitude towards me.
Sergeant Horse wrote:Trying to figure out which of these is more outrageous, 5 metal blood knights for $90, or 5 Destors for $100. It seems to me that gw isn't the only company overcharging for models.....wonder why nobody complains about PP prices
Vampires. Its basically the same price as the destors, but take up a faction of your army for the money.
Sergeant Horse wrote:Trying to figure out which of these is more outrageous, 5 metal blood knights for $90, or 5 Destors for $100. It seems to me that gw isn't the only company overcharging for models.....wonder why nobody complains about PP prices
Easy , everything that made you think Warmachine is expensive, applies to GW.
Even more so when the $90 of blood knights accounts for what... small % of that army?
Atleast for Destors, its large chunk of the army already.
Sergeant Horse wrote:Trying to figure out which of these is more outrageous, 5 metal blood knights for $90, or 5 Destors for $100. It seems to me that gw isn't the only company overcharging for models.....wonder why nobody complains about PP prices
Easy , everything that made you think Warmachine is expensive, applies to GW.
Even more so when the $90 of blood knights accounts for what... small % of that army?
Atleast for Destors, its large chunk of the army already.
Next?
Your post seems to incline that you think that I DON'T think GW is overpriced.
About the OP- it's a very fair point, and that's what I've been saying lately- look at the new DE stuff and compare to other companies, and tell me that you're not getting a "good value" compared to alternatives.
Some of the prices are out of whack, but the quality of sculpts lately lead me to believe that a lot of it is actually worth it... i.e., the quality has gone up lately, which to me makes it worth the price.
I know not everyone feels this way, and there's no way I'd pay current prices for space marines. But the DE sculpts are well worth it to me.
The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.
Then lets look at this from another perspective mikhalia,
which of the 2 company do you think is the one in power to set the prices leading the miniature market?
I actually don't think either should be setting the prices. If one raises prices, the other doesn't have to, and in fact, I'd hope they'd see the wisdom of keeping theirs cheaper. Why raise prices just because a competitior does?
What I see is prices going up all the time from all companies: GW, PP, Battlefront, just to name the big ones. Tanks from BF were 8.00 and now are 12.50, so it all seems to be going up roughly the same. Adding up the costs, an army from any of the 3 is 300-600 dollars. Sure, there are ways to do it cheaper, but I never see a gamer actually do that and stop buying stuff.
The other thing that's funny is listening to ex-PP players who've switched to Malifaux or Infinity complaining about PP. Sounds just like ex-GW gamers who've swapped over to PP complaining about GW.)
Interestingly enough, while many gamers feel PP communicates far better than GW and treats them better, I actually find the GW has much better support for stores themselves.
-From GW I get monthly support to run painting classes and events, free racking worth hundreds of dollars, prizes for tournaments, advance models either free or at a nominal price. The independent GT system they built the last two years gave out a huge amount of support in terms of scenery and prize support. When I've approached them about extra support for running more events, I've had no trouble working with them. And the #1 support, they immediately ship me replacements for any damages or shortages, and I can fix a customers problem by handing them a new kit.
-PP supports pressgangers, but it's hot and cold as to whether you can get a pressganger to support your store. Store employees or myself aren't allowed to apply. When Monpoc came out we didn't have a regular pressganger, I called PP over and over for a demo kit, they told me to get a pressganger to come by, but I couldn't get one to come by for demos. I get 0 support, but I can buy league kits and tournament kits. No racks, maybe a poster now and then. Worst of all, if a customer has a problem, I get to look at them and say "sorry, call up PP and have them ship you a part". I'm not allowed to fix it and then ask PP for the part.
So from my perspective, GW supports stores better, but PP seems to have less complaining about them. Other stores may see it differently.
And I think you all like to complain a lot on the internet.
Back on topic: No one buys Bloodknights and I can't remember the last time I sold that PP cav unit. No difference between them.
Haahaa mihkaila, I refrained from saying how much I like GW store support for fear of backlash, but since you said it first,I can now. They are a great company for getting store support, and from what I hear, if a customer has a problem model, they usually replace the full kit free of charge. We do a number of events a month and they support them well in prizes, and just today I got hundreds of dollars in racking to expand the range, all for free
mikhaila wrote:Back on topic: No one buys Bloodknights and I can't remember the last time I sold that PP cav unit. No difference between them.
This wins the thread
The pressganger system is awesome when you have the support, though. There's a FLGS near me (Dream Wizards) that doesn't seem to have a lot of miniature events driven by the store owners, but has TONS driven by the press gangers. It's totally awesome.
A shame they don't support stores like GW... I have heard how good GW is about that, and that at least is a very, very good thing.
GW should be cheaper based on volume! More people buy more miniatures than PP games, this should bring the price down massively. Both prices are outrageous, GW's just more so.
Ok, maybe it's just me, in fact no, it probably is just me....but I'm confused.
On the one hand, we have Sergeant Horse and mikhaila saying they appreciate GW and the support they get. I know I'm reading into this, but from another thread mikhaila gave me the impression, that even with the price rise and the restriction on sales, he's still happy with GW and being part of their "machine".
On the other hand we have companies like Wayland Games and Maelstrom, who "appear" to be unsatisfied with GWs latest price hikes and their restrictions.
Gamers blow both ways, and to be fair don't really count, as we don't see the bigger picture.
So my question to the RETAILERS, are you guys in support of GW or not?
If you guys ARE in support of GW, then come out and say it, and help the community understand the latest changes....my god, you've got customers threatening to walk away, and while they may still shop at your stores, they won't be buying your main line product, so rather then posting these tangential threads that ultimately lead to nothing, just pitch in and ease the strain.
If on the other hand you DON'T support GW actions, then, like Wayland Games, grow a pair and make a statement. How many have gotten behind Wayland and decided to do something? or are you casually sitting back to see how Wayland get's on, and depending on how bad they are shafted (or not) then you might act....
Purely basing a price comparison on cost of material/volume of material used is a fallacy.
After all no says "hold on a minute my ford escort has way more material in it so why does my neighbours ducatti motorcycle cost more?"
Prices can only be compared on perceived value to the consumer.
Hence why people will happily pay a higher unit cost, if the total outlay is less.
For instance I invent nugas to replace gas, it costs twice as much a gallon to buy but crucially gets four times more mileage to the gallon.
So overall my total cost has halved for the same amount of driving pleasure, thus although the unit cost is higher I still perceive it to be better value.
So in wargaming terms by switching from 40k or WFB to WM. Or Infinity we still get just as much gaming pleasure, for a lower total cost, even if unit price is higher, therefore it is perceived to be better value.
As a personal comparison, things I just bought and how much it cost
Malifaux warband £50
Khador 35pt force £100
Infinity aleph force £100
Grey knight 1750 pts £280
WFB daemons 1200pts £180 (so taking that up to a full army of 2400pts that would be £360)
All these forces (the daemons only once at 2400) result in games roughly the same length, I think we can see quite a difference in total cost.
PP has from the beginning tried to be as open and interactive with their customer base a possible, and have built up a lot of good will as a result.
Some major points off of the top of my head:
1. Company owners, design studio staff, writers, etc. all frequent the PP forums regularly answering questions, and offering input
2. They allowed fan input into the latest rules edition via a public playtest and discussion
3. You can email/call them and talk to known/named individuals
4. They have regular factual and informative press releases about major events and happenings that might effect players and their wallets
5. high-level staff attend major cons and are approachable
6. They allow the warmachine Vassal to exist and be discussed on their own forums
7. They allow critical discussions of PP on the PP forums without instant locks, shutdowns and deletions. They accept negative feedback and allow it.
8. They have pledged that no model/unit will ever be made obsolete or removed from an army list. Going on ten years and they have kept to this.
9. All armies get new releases each release, and in a timely fashion: no waiting 6+ years for a new release or army book, etc. No squatted armies or models, no drastic army overhauls in a seemingly random fashion, no cryptic release schedule.
10. Game balance is such that pricey models don't equate to better/more powerful models. Also you can build armies from just the Prime wave (the oldest wave: almost ten years) and be totally competitive. In effect power creep has been minimal, so you are not forced to buy the "next big thing" to play.
11. All models come with stat/rule cards. You don't even need to buy the army books to play.
etc.
It is amazing what a little customer service, politeness, and common sense can accomplish...
PP knows that their cav is pricey. it has been discussed on their forums by them. Cav are not mandetory or needed. iF you don't want to buy them then don't. problem solved.
I try to stay away from the extremes... sometimes GW/PP/ANY COMPANY makes bad decisions but all deliver a product that I have some interest in, no point in radicalism of opinions or atitudes.
With this said and looking at this topic the " lets start a flame war" alarm is on from the first post and to that I will not reply, but there are some points I would like to talk about.
A big part of the product you buy and its value to you depends on your preception of value and how well it will fill the role.
Role of a metal miniature:
-If you are interested JUST in painting miniatures you avaluate the sculpt quality, cast, material, design and also the size amoung other things and yes the argument "its a lump of metal VS another lump of metal" is also included in this package but its not the ONLY factor .
- If you buy a GAME the Lump of metal is much more than that because now the metal miniature has a to be seen in X multiples vs one isolated item.
-If you are a collector and consider a metal sculp Art then the quantity of material has litte bearing to its preception of value... rarity, who sculpted it has more importance for the collectors
I think these are probably the mainstream roles of a metal miniature, at least the ones I remember. So its hard to identify the value of a miniature not only because people have diferent tastes but because the destination and role of a mini can be so diferent.
I get my miniatures for both painting and gamming and on rare occasions for collecting its all fun and all have diferent budgets.
So assuming the majority here buys for gamming then the lump VS lump is not the most important factor to consider the value of 1 miniature on a army of multiples... and as such the TOTAL value is measured in therms of multiples.
Both are quite expensive for just painting, cheaper on PP vs GW for gamming and are crazy expensive for the collector since these are not rare and still in production and not much art factor IMO in them ( but 99.99% of these kind of metal minis has no art to me so )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another point I forgot to add to this is that manufacturer of GAMES with MINIS do have to plan prices of all things in order that the GAME is afforfdable and profitable... So people saying infinity is just as expensive as GW are just looking at things in a very strange prespective... For you know you can play infinity for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE... yeah thats right the rules are free of charge to be downloaded so its more than natural that those 10 minis you need are not the cheapest outhere
But yes you can biatch the rules translations are not crispy clear and built a castle of illusions that its as expensive has other popular systems on this thread
NAVARRO wrote:I try to stay away from the extremes... sometimes GW/PP/ANY COMPANY makes bad decisions but all deliver a product that I have some interest in, no point in radicalism of opinions or atitudes.
With this said and looking at this topic the " lets start a flame war" alarm is on from the first post and to that I will not reply, but there are some points I would like to talk about.
A big part of the product you buy and its value to you depends on your preception of value and how well it will fill the role.
Role of a metal miniature:
-If you are interested JUST in painting miniatures you avaluate the sculpt quality, cast, material, design and also the size amoung other things and yes the argument "its a lump of metal VS another lump of metal" is also included in this package but its not the ONLY factor .
- If you buy a GAME the Lump of metal is much more than that because now the metal miniature has a to be seen in X multiples vs one isolated item.
-If you are a collector and consider a metal sculp Art then the quantity of material has litte bearing to its preception of value... rarity, who sculpted it has more importance for the collectors
I think these are probably the mainstream roles of a metal miniature, at least the ones I remember. So its hard to identify the value of a miniature not only because people have diferent tastes but because the destination and role of a mini can be so diferent.
I get my miniatures for both painting and gamming and on rare occasions for collecting its all fun and all have diferent budgets.
So assuming the majority here buys for gamming then the lump VS lump is not the most important factor to consider the value of 1 miniature on a army of multiples... and as such the TOTAL value is measured in therms of multiples.
Both are quite expensive for just painting, cheaper on PP vs GW for gamming and are crazy expensive for the collector since these are not rare and still in production and not much art factor IMO in them ( but 99.99% of these kind of metal minis has no art to me so )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another point I forgot to add to this is that manufacturer of GAMES with MINIS do have to plan prices of all things in order that the GAME is afforfdable and profitable... So people saying infinity is just as expensive as GW are just looking at things in a very strange prespective... For you know you can play infinity for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE... yeah thats right the rules are free of charge to be downloaded so its more than natural that those 10 minis you need are not the cheapest outhere
But yes you can biatch the rules translations are not crispy clear and built a castle of illusions that its as expensive has other popular systems on this thread
I'm not trying to be rude, but your point has been made before. While it's good to see more people avoiding the obvious yes / no answer to the question, and realising that the value of the product has to be weighed against its intended use, it sems you maybe correct at the "flame war" attempt, because the OP has refused to comment on that aspect.
In some ways, this thread seems a bit like a....let's toss a hand-grenade into the room and walk away...type thread.
Delephont wrote:
I'm not trying to be rude, but your point has been made before. While it's good to see more people avoiding the obvious yes / no answer to the question, and realising that the value of the product has to be weighed against its intended use, it sems you maybe correct at the "flame war" attempt, because the OP has refused to comment on that aspect.
In some ways, this thread seems a bit like a....let's toss a hand-grenade into the room and walk away...type thread.
Heck, guess I failed to introduce the diferences between Painters/gamers/collectors and their way to look at a lump of metal
But yes its a handgrenade type of thread but if we manage to address the interesting non flammable issues then maybe we have got the grenade pin instead of the grenade
If Ford cranks up the price on their Fiesta to $200,000, it still doesn't compare to a Lambourghini at the same price. It's simply an overpriced car.
Same applies to GW's blood knights. Increasing their price to the same as the Destors doesn't make them the same quality or value, it simply makes them overpriced.
Refused to comment is a bit harsh considering it was posted at 3am and I do like going to bed at a reasonable hour. I don't see how this is aimed at a flame war. The original post was used to start a discussion, and the majority of posts have been pretty good and non spammy. The fact that it's reached 4 pages would assume the mods think the same.
Couple points:
That person who got a 35 point khador army for 100 pounds. Did you buy it at discount? Unless your using nothing but really expensive jacks, I can't see how you didn't.
As regards to retailers. GW supports brick and mortar pretty well, but they don't like online. Therefore, whiles some of us get alot of help from them, others, like wayland that are mainly online, will not. I don't think I was pussyfooting around anything .
As regards my castle of illusions on infinity. I stock it, it's a great game. I wonder is Navarro a designer for it if so, then I'd like to reiterate that the translatio are extremely ambiguous sometimes, not a bitch about it, consider it constructive criticism. I find a lot of people on dakka don't know the difference.
But also still, if you pay $15 or so, maybe it's more I'll know when I get to work, for a Cateran....that's still a bit expensive. Compare it to Malifaux where the majority of models fall in the $7.50-$9 range
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delephont wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:I try to stay away from the extremes... sometimes GW/PP/ANY COMPANY makes bad decisions but all deliver a product that I have some interest in, no point in radicalism of opinions or atitudes.
With this said and looking at this topic the " lets start a flame war" alarm is on from the first post and to that I will not reply, but there are some points I would like to talk about.
A big part of the product you buy and its value to you depends on your preception of value and how well it will fill the role.
Role of a metal miniature:
-If you are interested JUST in painting miniatures you avaluate the sculpt quality, cast, material, design and also the size amoung other things and yes the argument "its a lump of metal VS another lump of metal" is also included in this package but its not the ONLY factor .
- If you buy a GAME the Lump of metal is much more than that because now the metal miniature has a to be seen in X multiples vs one isolated item.
-If you are a collector and consider a metal sculp Art then the quantity of material has litte bearing to its preception of value... rarity, who sculpted it has more importance for the collectors
I think these are probably the mainstream roles of a metal miniature, at least the ones I remember. So its hard to identify the value of a miniature not only because people have diferent tastes but because the destination and role of a mini can be so diferent.
I get my miniatures for both painting and gamming and on rare occasions for collecting its all fun and all have diferent budgets.
So assuming the majority here buys for gamming then the lump VS lump is not the most important factor to consider the value of 1 miniature on a army of multiples... and as such the TOTAL value is measured in therms of multiples.
Both are quite expensive for just painting, cheaper on PP vs GW for gamming and are crazy expensive for the collector since these are not rare and still in production and not much art factor IMO in them ( but 99.99% of these kind of metal minis has no art to me so )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another point I forgot to add to this is that manufacturer of GAMES with MINIS do have to plan prices of all things in order that the GAME is afforfdable and profitable... So people saying infinity is just as expensive as GW are just looking at things in a very strange prespective... For you know you can play infinity for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE... yeah thats right the rules are free of charge to be downloaded so its more than natural that those 10 minis you need are not the cheapest outhere
But yes you can biatch the rules translations are not crispy clear and built a castle of illusions that its as expensive has other popular systems on this thread
I'm not trying to be rude, but your point has been made before. While it's good to see more people avoiding the obvious yes / no answer to the question, and realising that the value of the product has to be weighed against its intended use, it sems you maybe correct at the "flame war" attempt, because the OP has refused to comment on that aspect.
In some ways, this thread seems a bit like a....let's toss a hand-grenade into the room and walk away...type thread.
At what point have I walked away?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sadly I work 11 hours a day and can only check every so often, but I reply when I can.
Yes, ok, you are allowed to sleep....but remember, theres a war going on out here!
Both Maelstrom and Wayland have a shop, so even if they do suppliment their sales by (OMG) making use of modern technology, then I don't see how GW can discriminate against them.....however, you answered my question, so fairs fair....thank you.
Regarding Infinity, it's an A++ product, and my ears seal shut whenever I hear anything bad said against them....you may discuss MERCS, but only if you say good things and promote them.....I'm sorry, but the line has to be drawn somewhere....
..insult the Queen, poke fun of the Prime Minister, you may even burn the books of my religion....but by god, never say a bad word about Infinity....man, have you no shame?
I am so sick of people complaining about how unfair prices are without ANY data backing up why they believe these prices are unfair.
Sculptors need to eat. Moldmakers need to eat. Plastic costs money. Retooling all your molds to handle 'finecast' whatevers takes money. Distribution lines cost money.
I wish, just once, they'd break all this down and shut people up. But I understand why they don't - you ever try getting Ford to explain how they price their cars or Apple to explain how they price their iPads?
Maybe there is a reason that all the miniature companies charge roughly similar prices. Go check out the coolminiornot site. There are some cheaper lines - that are generally less detailed, and there are more expensive lines.
Really, they're not out of line for the industry. Click all those links above, I picked as close to the same size models as I could find relatively quickly. Look at the detail levels. Look at the size of the models.
"But I shouldn't have to pay so much for a toy soldier". Why not? Sculptors need to eat too. Materials cost money, distribution chains cost money. It's not like GW (or PP for that matter) are out there charging twice what anyone else is charging.
This IS the fair price for nicely sculpted miniatures.
hahaha don't worry dude, I love my Ariadna army. 12 camo markers deployed on the field
I think the main issue that both Malestrom & Wayland have though is the online restrictions which have popped up Over here you have to sign terms and conditions to not have an online shopping cart in order to receive a GW account. In Europe, laws prevent this from happening, as my brother found out when he began carrying it a few months ago. The downside is that GW will hammer thenm in other ways. Also theres the fact that I deal with GWUS, which might be more plyable than GWUK.
I posted this in a local forum some time back as part of a discussion on GW's price increase. I think it applies here
Regarding Different Prices for Different Companies: As for GW Prices VS PP Prices VS startups (Spartan, Warlords, Mantic, etc)... they all have very different business models and pricing schemes. I immediately dismiss startups VS GW as it is comparing apples to oranges. Pricing for both of these companies is based on value, not cost of production. An aggressive pricing scheme is usually a key for entry because initially there is no value to most people for a startup item. At the right price ($50-100 entry cost, or the equivalent of a board game) people are willing to give it a try.
The GW vs PP discussion is far more interesting. PP has survived that initial establishment period, using the low cost entry model ($50-100). I would assert that as PP enters maturity any gap in pricing will disappear, if it hasn't already. I called the move to Army Books 4 years ago as the logical extension of the business model, and I think I will be right again. The value proposition of PP is nearing GWs in many markets in North America, and cost of production has nothing to do with pricing, including whether plastic, pewter, or resin are the materials involved.
I find the dreadnought VS Warjack model interesting because other comparisons don't really bear out that argument.
A standard full unit comparison: 10 Tactical Marines: $37.25 VS 6 Temple Flame Guard (32.99) + 19.99 for unit attachment + 2 x 10.99 for 4 more Flame Guard = $74.96 or $54.97 without the upgrade. If we are talking minimums, then the marine combat squad is 22.50. GW wins on value per model handily. In fact I can have two full tactical squad, or 30 ork boyz, for the cost of a completely upgraded unit.
An elite unit comparison 5 Terminators: $50.00 VS 5 Plastic Cinerators $44.99; A slight edge for PP... unless you look at the majority of PP large based units. The minimum of 4 Skorne Cetrati (my army) is 54.99. I think we can call it a draw for now, as the prices are close.
Heavy Warjacks/Beast VS Dreadnoughts A standard marine Dread it $44 with almost all full dreads coming in close to that value, give or take $5. The Warjacks on the other hand range from 59.99 for Mulg the Ancient or Behemoth to 34.99 for the plastic kits (which are more expensive than the classic metal versions). Throw in the value pricing factor of $34.99 for an Ironclad and $49.99 for Ol'rowdy the character Ironclad, and you can see that PP is basing price on unit value to the player, not the cost of production. If you are going to play competitive War Machine, it seems to be a solid choice to take the character jack over the standard version most of the time. I would call it a draw here as well as the range in pricing is comparible. Perhaps a slight edge to PP because there are more lower cost options available, provided we leave out things like 3 killa kans for $44.50, as they would be better compared to light jacks, and are price competitive.
Characters: This one is tough as well. A small based Farseer is $15... or Eldrad costs $20. Larger Based models like Drago is $27 while Ghazzy is $35. They are all over the place. PP is the same. Haley is $7.99 which is great! Epic Haley is $17.99. Kraye is $25.99. Terminus or Kharchev are $49.99. Again, it is a wash.
Finally, the new war engines for PP are weighing in around $85, which more expensive than a Land Raider ($62 US)!
So, in summary - GW is superior in providing low cost troops, and everything else is basically a draw, with slight edges going one way or the other on a case by case comparison.
Or what about the fact you can pick up a Battlegroup force for around £34. This gives you a force that you can take out of the box and play with straight away. Obviously as gamers we want more straight away but you can play a good game with that.
Closest you get with 40K is a plastic Tactical Squad for £23 and to use them on their own you have to use a hybrid set of rules, not the mainstream ones.
So in answer to you question, it's only the collecting obsession that wargamers have that makes games like Warmachine expensive, not the system.
This is the biggest load of garbage excuse I've ever heard. Who cares how much of a percentage a model is of your list? The bottom line is that we are comparing 5 lumps of metal to 5 other lumps of metal. You really believe that PP should charge more for their metal lump simply because their game requires fewer lumps to play? We gripe about GW's prices but PP is doing the same thing, and in many cases making an even larger profit margin because some of their players justify it in this way. I have seen Infinity defended in the same way. They charge as much or more per model as GW but people act like it's cool because it requires fewer models to play.
Except its not going to be 5 lumps of metal vs 5 lumps of metal. Context matters. I can get by with 3 lumps of PP metal, or even none. GW's 5 lumps of metal will need to be 10 sooner or later if you want more then one rank or unit.
So, you're not so much upset about the cost of the models, which is fair, but about your desire to have more of them, and a company that has produced a game that entices this desire?
I posted this in a local forum some time back as part of a discussion on GW's price increase. I think it applies here
<Model to model comparison removed>
Cheers,
Nate
Well Nate, you've managed to make the point, yet again, that no one was really disputing: that on a model-per model basis, PP is roughly as expensive as GW.
As Carmachu mentions above (among many others); context matters.
Delephont wrote:Ok, maybe it's just me, in fact no, it probably is just me....but I'm confused.
<snip >
So my question to the RETAILERS, are you guys in support of GW or not?
If you guys ARE in support of GW, then come out and say it, and help the community understand the latest changes....my god, you've got customers threatening to walk away, and while they may still shop at your stores, they won't be buying your main line product, so rather then posting these tangential threads that ultimately lead to nothing, just pitch in and ease the strain.
If on the other hand you DON'T support GW actions, then, like Wayland Games, grow a pair and make a statement. How many have gotten behind Wayland and decided to do something? or are you casually sitting back to see how Wayland get's on, and depending on how bad they are shafted (or not) then you might act....
Enquiring minds want to know.
This is not to cast aspersions on the retailers posting in this thread, but when they are saying that GW is giving them...
monthly support to run painting classes and events, free racking worth hundreds of dollars, prizes for tournaments, advance models either free or at a nominal price. The independent GT system they built the last two years gave out a huge amount of support in terms of scenery and prize support. When I've approached them about extra support for running more events, I've had no trouble working with them. And the #1 support, they immediately ship me replacements for any damages or shortages, and I can fix a customers problem by handing them a new kit.
It's not exactly appropriate to cast them as disinterested parties.
Remember, the entire justification of some of GW's policies (explicitly the region based limitations) is to protect brick and mortar stores... like the ones run by the guys in this thread. I'm not saying that they are shills for GW, but the explicit fact is that GW is literally putting money in their businesses. They have a fundamentally different view on the situation, not because they are bad people, but because they have a financial interest in GW doing well, and people not abandoning it. I'm not saying "ignore these guys", but understand their position in context.
Personally, the fact that GW is very good with some independent retailers is interesting to me, but, honestly, doesn't really do much to sway my thoughts on GW one way or the other (and even if it did, their behavior has been markedly different towards other independents).
Sergeant Horse wrote:Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company
This argument (which has also been made several times) is, frankly, quite odd, as if the perception of the people making a product ought not to have any bearing on the decision to purchase it. If I'm choosing between Coke and Pepsi, I can base my decision on which I like better, or, for example I can choose which took the side I like best in the Arab-Israel boycott. Or, how about if I look for the Union label? How about Fair Trade? Ethical Investing? What if I want to Buy Local?
The fact is that intangibles are very rarely absent from consumers' decisions, and it's hard to see why they should not be considered here.
Edit: @ Buzzsaw: Your post brings up a good point.
I do think its admirable that GWs stepping up to help out all the LGSs out there. That said, I don't think their method of helping them is going to be effective in the long run.
People are buying on the 'net, by and large, because there either isn't an LGS near them (and run games out of a club or someone's living space) or because they don't see the value of GWs product at their MSRP. Rather than change the MSRP to capture more demand, they've tried to mitigate the consumer's option to buy at a lower price. The problem then becomes two-fold:
1.) As a consumer, not being able to buy first-hand at a discount does nothing to mitigate my ability to buy second-hand at a discount. You've made it mildly harder for people to buy below MSRP, but they've got very little recourse against eBay/bartertown. All you've done is drive consumers out of the market or to a different discount supply.
2.) Even if they could, in theory, totally eliminate discount suppliers in the Souther Hemisphere - I don't think they'd get a 1:1 conversion rate of people-who-bought-from-Maelstorm/Wayland/etc to people-who-buy-from-GW/LGS @ MSRP.
Personally, I would be much more inclined to buy GWs product at The Warstore's prices than my LGS's prices. However, since I'm not a complete cad and I don't want to bone over my LGS (especially since if I play WFB, I play there), I just don't buy GW product.
I think my Hordes army was around 200$ for what is equivalent to ~35 points in the new system. My Skaven army is 800$ (it's 1998 points, this isn't a giant collection, it's one army), and my Dark Eldar started at around 550$(same thing, one army) before I started buying extra kits to make conversions. I was eyeballing a 300pt Aleph force that will be around 180$. Most decent IG lists have at least 250$ in chimeras. These prices aren't even within striking distance of each other, GW armies are very expensive. A cheap (read: bad) GW list might come close to an expensive iteration of a PP list but that's not really apples to apples.
Sergeant Horse wrote:As regards my castle of illusions on infinity. I stock it, it's a great game. I wonder is Navarro a designer for it if so, then I'd like to reiterate that the translatio are extremely ambiguous sometimes, not a bitch about it, consider it constructive criticism. I find a lot of people on dakka don't know the difference.
Like you I'm simply a fan of the minis ... As for constructive VS Bitch I can see the diference but Inside the context of this thread the comment posted didnt seem aiming at constructive.
Sergeant Horse wrote:
But also still, if you pay $15 or so, maybe it's more I'll know when I get to work, for a Cateran....that's still a bit expensive. Compare it to Malifaux where the majority of models fall in the $7.50-$9 range
And if you compare it with Mcvey its still unexpensive... there will always be cheaper as well as more expensive miniatures but inside the 28mm SKIRMISH style of games these diferences are not that big or noticeable in most cases.
This is not to cast aspersions on the retailers posting in this thread, but when they are saying that GW is giving them...
monthly support to run painting classes and events, free racking worth hundreds of dollars, prizes for tournaments, advance models either free or at a nominal price. The independent GT system they built the last two years gave out a huge amount of support in terms of scenery and prize support. When I've approached them about extra support for running more events, I've had no trouble working with them. And the #1 support, they immediately ship me replacements for any damages or shortages, and I can fix a customers problem by handing them a new kit.
It's not exactly appropriate to cast them as disinterested parties.
Remember, the entire justification of some of GW's policies (explicitly the region based limitations) is to protect brick and mortar stores... like the ones run by the guys in this thread. I'm not saying that they are shills for GW, but the explicit fact is that GW is literally putting money in their businesses. They have a fundamentally different view on the situation, not because they are bad people, but because they have a financial interest in GW doing well, and people not abandoning it. I'm not saying "ignore these guys", but understand their position in context.
Personally, the fact that GW is very good with some independent retailers is interesting to me, but, honestly, doesn't really do much to sway my thoughts on GW one way or the other (and even if it did, their behavior has been markedly different towards other independents).
Sergeant Horse wrote:Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company
This argument (which has also been made several times) is, frankly, quite odd, as if the perception of the people making a product ought not to have any bearing on the decision to purchase it. If I'm choosing between Coke and Pepsi, I can base my decision on which I like better, or, for example I can choose which took the side I like best in the Arab-Israel boycott. Or, how about if I look for the Union label? How about Fair Trade? Ethical Investing? What if I want to Buy Local?
The fact is that intangibles are very rarely absent from consumers' decisions, and it's hard to see why they should not be considered here.
Good points, as any business, it is in our interest if people keep playing. However, its not that determental as the majority who change, will change to another system, usually that the stores supplies. I wouldn't say they are LITERALLY putting money in my pocket (I'd rather they did tbh, could use it) , but they are helpful in giving B&M stores the best possible chance to set up and promote the game, which is good business sense on their part, after that, its up to us to provide the good atmosphere and draw for customers. My original reason for posting this was not to defend anyone or stop someone from leaving the game...why would I bother since I know maybe 20 people on the forums personally I did however, want to understand some of the reasons people have such hate fr one company over the other so that I can have dialogue with my customers and better direct them. I'm glad you are pointing out certain intangible assets that the companies you like offer you, thats a great reason to lean one way or the other, though I don't see how a couple of them are relevant to mini gaming What I wanted to get across though, and probably didn;t do it very well, is, as a Publicly Traded Company, any info you need, SHOULD be out there already, so there's not going to be a headman giving news, as they release reports intermtently
carlosthecraven wrote:Throw in the value pricing factor of $34.99 for an Ironclad and $49.99 for Ol'rowdy the character Ironclad, and you can see that PP is basing price on unit value to the player, not the cost of production.
Having just purchased old Rowdy, I'd say that cost of production would probably impact the cost somewhat but probably not at the 50% mark. Rowdy is quite a bit more complex than the standard Ironclad. Labor costs to produce would definitely be higher due to the additional pieces.
The metal Ironclad comes in the following pieces (6 cast pieces):
- Head
- Body
- Boiler
- Legs
- Right Arm
- Left Arm
Old Rowdy comes in the following pices (13 cast pieces):
- Head
- Body
- Frontal armor
- Boiler
- Left Shoulder
- Right Shoulder
- Right Arm
- Left Arm
- Hips
- Left Leg
- Right Leg
- Knee Plates / Stack sprue x2
It is a significantly more detailed and complicated kit.
For reference: the plastic ironclad comes in the following pieces (10):
- Head
- Body
- Boiler
- Left Arm
- Right Arm
- Left Hand
- Right Hand
- Hips
- Left Leg
- Right Leg
Redbeard wrote:I am so sick of people complaining about how unfair prices are without ANY data backing up why they believe these prices are unfair.
Sculptors need to eat. Moldmakers need to eat. Plastic costs money. Retooling all your molds to handle 'finecast' whatevers takes money. Distribution lines cost money.
I wish, just once, they'd break all this down and shut people up. But I understand why they don't - you ever try getting Ford to explain how they price their cars or Apple to explain how they price their iPads?
Maybe there is a reason that all the miniature companies charge roughly similar prices. Go check out the coolminiornot site. There are some cheaper lines - that are generally less detailed, and there are more expensive lines.
Really, they're not out of line for the industry. Click all those links above, I picked as close to the same size models as I could find relatively quickly. Look at the detail levels. Look at the size of the models.
"But I shouldn't have to pay so much for a toy soldier". Why not? Sculptors need to eat too. Materials cost money, distribution chains cost money. It's not like GW (or PP for that matter) are out there charging twice what anyone else is charging.
This IS the fair price for nicely sculpted miniatures.
Dear lord man, have you not read the previous posts?
I believe the key here is quantity. All of those companies that you have cited do not encourage you to purchase mutliples of those same miniatures in order to "enjoy" them as intended. Yes, you can buy a single Space Marine, paint it, base it and display it in your cabinet.....but really, that is not the primary function of that object as set out by its creators.
All of the companies above realise, you will most likely buy a single copy of each of their range (at the most, you might buy two!) but that's it....they may never see you or your money again after that.....GW, knows full well, you will come back to them again and again, so in theory, because of the design of their games and their product marketing strategy, they will (like all the others) pay their sculptors, pay their packers, pay for all the other operational costs of running their business, but they will recover those costs a hell of a lot quicker because of their volume sales.....due to this, they could drop their prices, and still make a very tidy profit
I know I'm saying all of this without the facts.....but, by using pure logic, if all of those other niche companies can survive on less unit sales, then GW hould have no problem....
Now before you ram that pitch fork up my devils alley-way, I fully understand that GW is a company, aimed at making a profit and generating a RoI for its share-holders......but, as a consumer, why should I care about that? just like GW has an agenda, so do I, I want to get the best value for money, but more importantly, I want to "feel" as though I'm getting value for money, and I want to feel like I'm a valued aspect of their success.....sometimes saying a "please" and "thank you" can go a long way, especially if stated before you take me down a back alley and introduced me to Mr. Tom.
Redbeard wrote: I want to "feel" as though I'm getting value for money, and I want to feel like I'm a valued aspect of their success.....sometimes saying a "please" and "thank you" can go a long way, especially if stated before you take me down a back alley and introduced me to Mr. Tom.
this here I think is the crux of he issue, the courtesy. I think this would not have exploded as much if someone DID come out and say "thanks for the support (not that I think they will). Its actually funny, I got this the other day in my own store. We recently begun carrying Magic, and all my Tabletop gamers began freaking out, until eventually someone told me that they just wanted to be told that "David still loves them" and that I wasn't dropping them for Magic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NAVARRO wrote:
Sergeant Horse wrote:As regards my castle of illusions on infinity. I stock it, it's a great game. I wonder is Navarro a designer for it if so, then I'd like to reiterate that the translatio are extremely ambiguous sometimes, not a bitch about it, consider it constructive criticism. I find a lot of people on dakka don't know the difference.
Like you I'm simply a fan of the minis ... As for constructive VS Bitch I can see the diference but Inside the context of this thread the comment posted didnt seem aiming at constructive.
Sergeant Horse wrote:
But also still, if you pay $15 or so, maybe it's more I'll know when I get to work, for a Cateran....that's still a bit expensive. Compare it to Malifaux where the majority of models fall in the $7.50-$9 range
And if you compare it with Mcvey its still unexpensive... there will always be cheaper as well as more expensive miniatures but inside the 28mm SKIRMISH style of games these diferences are not that big or noticeable in most cases.
It was a reply to another comment where the person asked if GW would be worth it if their books were clear and unambiguous like Warmachine (which very much is) and Infinity (which, tbh I don't think it is)
See, there's also the other issue. People are comparing 40k & Fantasy, large scale war games, to PP, Infinity etc, which are all SKIRMISH games. By the very nature of the game design, your going to need more models. Now is this a ploy to sell more? Possibly, if so, its a good one. But also look at the fact that there is no way a skirmish game will last as long as a large scale wargame. Now you might play 4 skirmish games in the time that you play one big one, but who would do that without getting bored or wanting to switch to another skirmish game for variety. These are also other intangibles your going to have to add btw.
Automatically Appended Next Post: sigh, now I get to go to work .........wooo
carlosthecraven wrote:So, in summary - GW is superior in providing low cost troops, and everything else is basically a draw, with slight edges going one way or the other on a case by case comparison.
Cheers,
Nate
I'm not going to get into the nitty-gritty of 'but fewer models means cheaper armies/hobby' because once you start building lists, especially competitive lists, the price advantage of PP is obvious.
2 quick things however: 1st, What the unit:unit comparison largely misses is that in WM/H, a different warlock/warcaster will completely change a 'group of models' playstyle, such that it essentially becomes a different list.
2nd, there is almost no unit duplication in WM/H. In 40k, spam is largely regarded as the easiest way to a competitive list. That doesn't really work in WM/H. This is significant because when you invest in a warjack/warbeast, which is probably the single most expensive piece(s) in your army list, similar in-faction chassis patterns plus the ease of procuring bits from PP plus magnetization means that a regular plastic warjack kit will give you 4 or more different models. 2 Cygnar Plastic Warjacks for $30 each plus Siege for $15 ish plus eStryker for $15 ish will give you two distinct lists (Siege + Defender/Cyclone, eStryker + Ironclad/Ol' Rowdy) for the same price as 1 list plus 1 extra warcaster model and a handful of bits and magnets. Those two lists will play completely differently, akin to blob platoon IG versus mechvet IG.
That represents huge potential for cost savings (yes, potential, if a collector goes out and buys one of everything 'just to have' then that potential is wasted) and a customizability in game design philosophy that simply isn't exhibited by GW. A WM/H player can change an army simply by swapping warcaster/warlock and arms/heads on a warjack model. A 40k player can change an army by... buying a new army.
This value isn't really apparent in the cavalry models specifically, but it's an inherent bonus in the game system that can't really be glossed over in debates over which hobby costs more.
Buzzsaw wrote:This is not to cast aspersions on the retailers posting in this thread, but when they are saying that GW is giving them...
monthly support to run painting classes and events, free racking worth hundreds of dollars, prizes for tournaments, advance models either free or at a nominal price. The independent GT system they built the last two years gave out a huge amount of support in terms of scenery and prize support. When I've approached them about extra support for running more events, I've had no trouble working with them. And the #1 support, they immediately ship me replacements for any damages or shortages, and I can fix a customers problem by handing them a new kit.
It's not exactly appropriate to cast them as disinterested parties.
Remember, the entire justification of some of GW's policies (explicitly the region based limitations) is to protect brick and mortar stores... like the ones run by the guys in this thread. I'm not saying that they are shills for GW, but the explicit fact is that GW is literally putting money in their businesses. They have a fundamentally different view on the situation, not because they are bad people, but because they have a financial interest in GW doing well, and people not abandoning it. I'm not saying "ignore these guys", but understand their position in context.
Well of course we aren't 'disinterested parties'. Any store you could describe that way it probably out of business soon. Owning a games store means you have to as passionate about gaming as your customers, and probably more so.
No one's going to claim a store owner is 'disinterested'. And no gamer is unbiased. You all have favorite games, and your arguements will all be biased based on what you like. That has to be an accepted fact in any discussion. No one on these boards is 'disinterested.)
Glad to see me and Sgt. Horse aren't quite in the Shill catagory, and you don't consider us 'bad people'.)
You do understand that if a customer changes from GW to Privateer, I don't loose their business? In fact, I can make more, because I get 5% more discount on PP products than GW. And if 20 ex GW gamers all switch over to Warmahordes, I can reap huge benefits from 20 people all starting new armies. I have a financial interest in selling games to gamers, not necessarily in selling any one companies games. My shop carries every model in production/distribution from GW, Privateer, and Flames of War. We run tournaments and leagues for all three. I really don't care what game anyone plays, as long as they keep coming in to game.
My point about GW supporting stores was simply to illustrate that what I thought was an interesting point about customer interaction. Stores are as much customers of PP as gamers are, just one step above in the chain. PP seems to treat gamers better, but in my experience GW treats stores a lot better.
GalaxyGames wrote:People do not complain about Privateer because privateer respects its consumer base with constant dialogue and respect. They allowed players to shape their rules, voice their oppinions and just overall enjoy the game and hobby. Privateer is coming off as a friend. GW rubs off in a different way.
They make army books optional, the models hold more game play value than 40k models do. Every model feels like it has more 'worth' for its contributory factors for the game.
These are just many reasons why privateer customer respect the company and their prices. Not saying that PP is any cheaper because they aren't. But the biggest point is PP players do not complain (as much) or if at all and that is really saying something about consumer attitudes for a company.
Its like the apple model. High prices, but respect to their fans -- people will pay and follow.
All the warm and fuzziness about communication is fine and all, but at the end of the day if PP's prices are comparable to GW then the OP has a point. Its not being an apologist either. I don't play PP games so i'm not aware of their prices, i'm going by the OP's post but if what he's saying is true then I really have to wonder if all it takes to placate people is a bit of dialogue about price increases then thats actually kinda sad, at least in regards to the feet stompers out there.
GalaxyGames wrote:People do not complain about Privateer because privateer respects its consumer base with constant dialogue and respect. They allowed players to shape their rules, voice their oppinions and just overall enjoy the game and hobby. Privateer is coming off as a friend. GW rubs off in a different way.
They make army books optional, the models hold more game play value than 40k models do. Every model feels like it has more 'worth' for its contributory factors for the game.
These are just many reasons why privateer customer respect the company and their prices. Not saying that PP is any cheaper because they aren't. But the biggest point is PP players do not complain (as much) or if at all and that is really saying something about consumer attitudes for a company.
Its like the apple model. High prices, but respect to their fans -- people will pay and follow.
All the warm and fuzziness about communication is fine and all, but at the end of the day if PP's prices are comparable to GW then the OP has a point. Its not being an apologist either. I don't play PP games so i'm not aware of their prices, i'm going by the OP's post but if what he's saying is true then I really have to wonder if all it takes to placate people is a bit of dialogue about price increases then thats actually kinda sad, at least in regards to the feet stompers out there.
But here's the problem. When you look at both sets of models OUTSIDE OF THEIR GAMES, then yes, they both seem to be overpriced. But now look at the systems that the models are in. In Warmachine, that unit is a single purchase. Once. Done. There's no reason to get anything else. In Warhammer, however, a unit of 5 cavalry may not be enough. So you may have to buy more.
Spyder68 wrote:
I like all the, im not spending that much money, i quit im gonna go spend close the the same playing PP!
I think the point is that if you want to game and if two companies are gonna charge you near the same but one regulalry treats you like S%!t and the other doesn't...
If you want to pay increasing costs to be treated like s%!t then go for it. Others prefer an alternative...
Delephont wrote: Dear lord man, have you not read the previous posts?
I believe the key here is quantity. All of those companies that you have cited do not encourage you to purchase mutliples of those same miniatures in order to "enjoy" them as intended. Yes, you can buy a single Space Marine, paint it, base it and display it in your cabinet.....but really, that is not the primary function of that object as set out by its creators.
I did read the previous posts. In short, you're saying that you believe the price of the models is fair, and GW is evil because they make you want to buy more of their things than you are financially able to justify buying? I don't know, sounds to me like selling things at a fair price and creating a demand for them is what businesses should strive to do.
All of the companies above realise, you will most likely buy a single copy of each of their range (at the most, you might buy two!) but that's it....they may never see you or your money again after that.....GW, knows full well, you will come back to them again and again, so in theory, because of the design of their games and their product marketing strategy, they will (like all the others) pay their sculptors, pay their packers, pay for all the other operational costs of running their business, but they will recover those costs a hell of a lot quicker because of their volume sales.....due to this, they could drop their prices, and still make a very tidy profit
That makes a couple of key assumptions. One, that you will buy multiples of everything. You won't. The GW model I linked to in my analysis above was a special character for one specific army. People are no more going to buy a dozen of that than they are of any of the other companies models. And look, his price was right in-line with all the other company's products.
Second, if you look at the per-model cost for the models you need a lot of, they're a lot cheaper. A tactical squad breaks down to $4/model, a lot cheaper than the one-of models that you would buy just to have one. So they are passing the savings along based on expected volume sales. But they clearly don't expect volume sales on everything. Tactical marines - lots of people need those. Dreadknights... not so much.
... but more importantly, I want to "feel" as though I'm getting value for money, and I want to feel like I'm a valued aspect of their success.....sometimes saying a "please" and "thank you" can go a long way,...
And what exactly would make you feel all warm and snuggly?
Let's assume, just pretend for a second, that GW is run by people who understand their line of business, and who understand:
a) that rising prices makes it harder to attract and retain customers and b) that not remaining profitable makes it harder to stay in business at all and retain any customers.
Let's pretend that these annual price rises might actually have something to do with worldwide business conditions. That the cost of living has gone up, and therefore they need to pay their employees a bit more, they need to ensure that their trade sales accounts can make a little more. And that the cost of raw materials has gone up, and so they actually need to charge more to cover that.
In other words, lets pretend that price increases are inevitable. My gasoline costs more, my eggs cost more, my milk costs more, my beef costs more, I saw a newspaper article this morning that stated that my electrical company is going to be charing more. And my toy soldiers are going to cost a bit more too. How would you announce this in such a way that your customers felt all warm and snuggly about it?
Really? This is an international company we're talking about. I've seen enough gaming companies that tried to be best friends with their customers and went under. TSR - the original D&D company - went bankrupt because it didn't seem to understand the importance of remaining profitable. I'd rather they rise prices and remain in business than go under.
Afterall, we've already established that they're charging a fair market price for their goods. All you're upset about is that they make you want to buy more of them.
misfit wrote:I really have to wonder if all it takes to placate people is a bit of dialogue about price increases then thats actually kinda sad, at least in regards to the feet stompers out there.
You're missing most of the point. The PP-gamer/customer relationship has a lot of back-and-forth with interactive PP employees and game developers. It's easy to get official clarification on anything, including the game and game rules and release schedule and pending product. There is a culture of openness that makes their customers more receptive to "bad news".
The Studio McVey models featured above cost £12 in the UK. They are part of the limited edition collector's range. The standard models, which are metal, are £6 or £6.50.
But here's the problem. When you look at both sets of models OUTSIDE OF THEIR GAMES, then yes, they both seem to be overpriced. But now look at the systems that the models are in. In Warmachine, that unit is a single purchase. Once. Done. There's no reason to get anything else. In Warhammer, however, a unit of 5 cavalry may not be enough. So you may have to buy more.
Based off the Mk.2 model, yes. If you started with PP, it was box of guys, then 1-2 blisters to roll up more. Variable units is not a bad thing either. Coming back to game, it annoyed me more than anything that I now have to run Max or Min... nothing in between.
Redbeard wrote:
I did read the previous posts. In short, you're saying that you believe the price of the models is fair, and GW is evil because they make you want to buy more of their things than you are financially able to justify buying? I don't know, sounds to me like selling things at a fair price and creating a demand for them is what businesses should strive to do.
Evil is such an emotive term to use, especially in this context. No one is evil, like you said, it's business.
We all appreciate that baby Jervis has to eat, but, we're examining a snap shot of the overall GW customer / company relationship here.
No offence to the OP, but these threads, tend to over simplify the situation. Others have posted very good reasons why the cost of the PP miniatures are "acceptable" when to compared to GW, and the truth lies in the game more than the individual prices of the miniatures.....but then, I don't even think the year on year price hike is the main issue.....we best not forget the sales restrictions, we should not forget the metal to resin price hike....I mean, look at that, think about it! You argue that it costs money to re-engineer the moulds to take resin (as if GW has re-engineered anything!) but, who asked them to do it? Was there a mass complaint about metal? I mean, from a customer point of view its done nothing for me but increase the price of the product...wow....was it a benefit to GW, well, if they were complaining that the price of metal is going up therefore they have turned to resin, then one can only assume they are screwing their customer base....cheaper material, higher price...no justification.
Redbeard wrote: That makes a couple of key assumptions. One, that you will buy multiples of everything. You won't. The GW model I linked to in my analysis above was a special character for one specific army. People are no more going to buy a dozen of that than they are of any of the other companies models. And look, his price was right in-line with all the other company's products.
Second, if you look at the per-model cost for the models you need a lot of, they're a lot cheaper. A tactical squad breaks down to $4/model, a lot cheaper than the one-of models that you would buy just to have one. So they are passing the savings along based on expected volume sales. But they clearly don't expect volume sales on everything. Tactical marines - lots of people need those. Dreadknights... not so much.
That may be true for that particular miniature, but again, you need to compare the "worth" of that miniature in its army setting, within its game setting.....you can't just compare one lump of metal against another like that, unless this discussion is aimed at painters and collectors (as NAVARRO stated in one of his posts earlier). Most of the miniatures you have compared the GW miniature to, are considered either generic one off gaming pieces, specific to no particular game or they are intended for painters and collectors.....in terms of "intended usage" theres no real comparrison....almost like comparing a Toyota Yaris to a F1 race car...the ones that do form part of a game (Wyrd and Grind House) actually come in cheaper! bear in mind that GW prices are also about to go up....so GW have priced their miniatures alongside the Boutique miniatures.....nice, they obviously think quite highly of their product...
Redbeard wrote: And what exactly would make you feel all warm and snuggly?
Let's assume, just pretend for a second, that GW is run by people who understand their line of business, and who understand:
a) that rising prices makes it harder to attract and retain customers
and
b) that not remaining profitable makes it harder to stay in business at all and retain any customers.
Let's pretend that these annual price rises might actually have something to do with worldwide business conditions. That the cost of living has gone up, and therefore they need to pay their employees a bit more, they need to ensure that their trade sales accounts can make a little more. And that the cost of raw materials has gone up, and so they actually need to charge more to cover that.
In other words, lets pretend that price increases are inevitable. My gasoline costs more, my eggs cost more, my milk costs more, my beef costs more, I saw a newspaper article this morning that stated that my electrical company is going to be charing more. And my toy soldiers are going to cost a bit more too. How would you announce this in such a way that your customers felt all warm and snuggly about it?
Really? This is an international company we're talking about. I've seen enough gaming companies that tried to be best friends with their customers and went under. TSR - the original D&D company - went bankrupt because it didn't seem to understand the importance of remaining profitable. I'd rather they rise prices and remain in business than go under.
Afterall, we've already established that they're charging a fair market price for their goods. All you're upset about is that they make you want to buy more of them.
Well, yes, let's pretend that's true......first, a bit of my background. I work as a Designer for a supplier company to Automotive OEMs. We supply wiring systems for all types of car, from luxury Aston Martins to one off race vehicles....LM cars, Touring cars, you name it....the price of copper goes up each year, the cost of living goes up, etc etc....how long would we stay in business if we just hiked the price to our customers? What do you think our competition would do? What do you think our OEM customers demand of us?
Let me answer that.
1) We have to communicate our price rises, and explain very clearly why that is happening, if we don't, we could realistically find our selves "desourced" and off the project!
2) In our industry, a selling point is price reductions year on year...we have to find ways to make a great product, but cheaper...we use techniques such as LEAN, for example, to reduce the cost of producing our products, removing waste from our processes and thereby offering the customer a price competitive product that beats our competitors....but guess what, the competition is doing this just as well as us....
3) Our customers demand we reduce our prices year on year....the market demands that of us....simple as that. We are market driven. We buck the market, it kicks us out.....thats market power!
So yes, every industry is under the same pressure, but the only difference between GW and my company, is that GW has a bunch of flowers for customers, rather than hard nose business men, who will, if you put a foot wrong turn their backs on you and lets you sink.
GW does what it does because it can.....from a business point of view, good luck to them, if my company could do business like that I'm sure we would. However, from a customer point of view, I feel inclined to say "stuff you GW" and support the growth of competition.
In terms of feeling "cozy"...it's more to do with GW taking it's customers seriously, and respecting that without them they are nothing. Currently, GW comes across as arrogant and spoilt, and gives the impression that they feel they are insulated from their own target market.....maybe for you this is the truth.
For me, I will support a company that respects me as a customer, and if that company is PP then yes, I will pay the same money as I would have payed GW for the same or less of a product...right now, I look at the PP line of games and given what I need to invest and the PR the company has built up I have no problem spending the money with them.
I hope that has made my stance clear.....because I'm never going to type that stuff again.....ever!
That may be true for that particular miniature, but again, you need to compare the "worth" of that miniature in its army setting, within its game setting.....you can't just compare one lump of metal against another like that, unless this discussion is aimed at painters and collectors
Exactly. I will pay nothing for a GW Ogryn. Nothing. Not even a dollar, even though this model is "worth" $20 or so retail.
I would be willing to pay $40 for a PP Spriggan Warjack, even though this model is "worth" $30 retail, simply because I want to play a game with this model.
Delephont wrote:....we best not forget the sales restrictions
I really don't understand the international laws or intricacies enough to follow the restriction topic. To me, Mark Wells put a letter out on Facebook saying that they needed to limit Eureopean sales to Australia because they needed to support the Australian infrastructure in Australian dollars. Given that I don't have any data, I'm fairly willing to believe that, because it has a certain logic to it.
, we should not forget the metal to resin price hike....I mean, look at that, think about it! You argue that it costs money to re-engineer the moulds to take resin (as if GW has re-engineered anything!) but, who asked them to do it? Was there a mass complaint about metal? I mean, from a customer point of view its done nothing for me but increase the price of the product...wow....was it a benefit to GW, well, if they were complaining that the price of metal is going up therefore they have turned to resin, then one can only assume they are screwing their customer base....cheaper material, higher price...no justification.
Having seen the picture of the new finecast sprue, yes, it's obvious that they re-engineered these molds to work with the new material. Who asked them to? I would expect that it was forward-thinking on their part. Metal prices have been rising a lot in recent years. For them to move out of metal may not have lowered our prices, but it may not have raised them as much as they'd need to be raised otherwise.
There has always been a balance between what models they choose to produce in what material. Historically, plastic is used for larger pieces, where the cost of materials, or weight, are factors. And plastic is used where they expect more mass sales. Metal has been used where they expect fewer sales. The reason for that is that the initial cost for metal molds is lower than that for plastic, so to commit to a plastic mold is more of a commitment upfront. They've been pretty good at knowing where to make the split, with a few notable exceptions. One of these, I think, was the Bloodcrushers. Initially, they released them in metal. I don't think they expected people to want to field 16, or 24 of them. But, in a nod to old-school chaos rules, the 40k unit sizes for the elite section were all based on the favoured numbers of the gods, so khorne got 8 bloodcrushers as a unit size, and people did just that. A year or so later, they redid the models in plastic. That's an awful fast turn around. I think the Bloodcrushers were a tricky case. They were not quite as big as a vehicle, but clearly use a lot of metal. When they realized they were hitting enough volume on them to justify the plastic mold, they redid them, and they're a lot cheaper in plastic now, they actually did pass the savings on to us. Some people forget (or fail to notice) when that sort of thing happens.
....so GW have priced their miniatures alongside the Boutique miniatures.....nice, they obviously think quite highly of their product...
Well, yes, but so do I. I'm both a gamer and a painter. I buy boutique minis to paint. I also buy GW models to paint, but I game with them too. As a gamer, I recognize that there are cheaper lines out there, but as a painter, I'm not interested in their quality level. I've been painting minis for 30 years. I started playing GW games seven years ago. I avoided GW for a long time, not because of price, but because their models looked static and cartoony. In the late 80s and early 90s, GW quality was awful compared to Ral Partha or even Grenadier. That's no longer the case. GWs stuff is among the best. Of the lines I look at, only Freebooter produces more consistently good models, in my opinion.
Well, yes, let's pretend that's true......first, a bit of my background. I work as a Designer for a supplier company to Automotive OEMs. We supply wiring systems for all types of car, from luxury Aston Martins to one off race vehicles....LM cars, Touring cars, you name it....the price of copper goes up each year, the cost of living goes up, etc etc....how long would we stay in business if we just hiked the price to our customers? What do you think our competition would do? What do you think our OEM customers demand of us?
Yeah, my brother's father-in-law works in that industry too. Mandated 5% price reductions every year as part of the contract and all.
But you're supplying an industry, not consumers. Consumer sales and industrial sales are not the same at all. When the price of gasoline goes up, do the trucking companies eat it, or do they pass that along to the consumers in the form of higher prices on everything? If the price of copper doubles, and you've got a contract that says you have to reduce your price every year, you have to eat that loss or you lose the contract. I don't know how many contracts you have, but there aren't that many automotive companies out there. Losing one customer may well be 25% of your base. Selling to end-level consumers is nothing like that. One customer leaves, there are ten thousand (or more) remaining. You cannot compare hobbies like crashing Ferraris with mini wargaming, but you also cannot compare consumer sales with industrial sales. They're just different animals.
GW does what it does because it can.....from a business point of view, good luck to them, if my company could do business like that I'm sure we would. However, from a customer point of view, I feel inclined to say "stuff you GW" and support the growth of competition.
That is, of course, your choice. They don't make you feel good. I, however, look at the competition and I don't see a company trying to screw me over, I see a company trying to exist in an increasingly difficult economy, in a niche market. I don't leap to the conclusion that they're incompetent or worse, I look for data. I find rising prices for metal, for plastic. I see similar price increases in every aspect of my daily life. And I realize that ComEd isn't apologizing to me for raising the price of my electricity and BP isn't bending over backwards to justify the higher price of gas, and I have no expectation that GW should either. They're not my friend, they're a company. They're not cheating me, they're supplying a product at market standard prices. I do not feel taken advantage of, not because I am made of money and able to weather the increase in prices, but because I have done the research to determine why the prices must be raised for them to stay in business. And I've watched other gaming companies that don't make such decisions go under.
You do understand that if a customer changes from GW to Privateer, I don't loose their business? In fact, I can make more, because I get 5% more discount on PP products than GW. And if 20 ex GW gamers all switch over to Warmahordes, I can reap huge benefits from 20 people all starting new armies. I have a financial interest in selling games to gamers, not necessarily in selling any one companies games. My shop carries every model in production/distribution from GW, Privateer, and Flames of War. We run tournaments and leagues for all three. I really don't care what game anyone plays, as long as they keep coming in to game.
Teh cavet of course, is if and only if, they buy it from the store. Folks can find warmahordes anywhere with ease. No barriers that GW puts in the way.
My point about GW supporting stores was simply to illustrate that what I thought was an interesting point about customer interaction. Stores are as much customers of PP as gamers are, just one step above in the chain. PP seems to treat gamers better, but in my experience GW treats stores a lot better.
PP is about 10 years behind GW as far as interaction with stores. Press gangers remind me of the old GW outrider program. Are you familiar with it, and have interacted with it in days of old?
That may be true for that particular miniature, but again, you need to compare the "worth" of that miniature in its army setting, within its game setting.....you can't just compare one lump of metal against another like that, unless this discussion is aimed at painters and collectors
Exactly. I will pay nothing for a GW Ogryn. Nothing. Not even a dollar, even though this model is "worth" $20 or so retail.
I would be willing to pay $40 for a PP Spriggan Warjack, even though this model is "worth" $30 retail, simply because I want to play a game with this model.
This is one of the few posts in this thread with any real understanding of "value."
Things are worth what somebody will pay. Enough people like Vampire Counts to sell those blood knights, and enough people like Khador to sell those whatevers.
To me, infinity models are not worth anything, because nobody plays the game. Leman Russes are woth next to nothing, because I already own 12.
It cost more per model technically, BUT YOU DONT NEED AS MANY TO PLAY!!!
What you call "rationalizing" is what most folks call context. for $200-$250 I can get a fully functional, and multiple purpose army for PP. Doesnt work the same for GW. Its part of an army. That makes a big difference.
Redbeard wrote: see a company trying to exist in an increasingly difficult economy, in a niche market. I don't leap to the conclusion that they're incompetent or worse, I look for data. I find rising prices for metal, for plastic.
So what do you say to the securities analysts and accountants that repeatedly state that GW's material costs are an inconsequential fraction of their manufacturing costs and that their decisions are just outright bad, both for their market and for the current state of the economy?
This is the question that I don't see asked enough - you look around on this forum for 15 minutes and you see people who (assuming they're telling us the truth) pay their bills by analyzing these sorts of decisions every day, and they explain in very unambiguous terms from start to finish how GW is making bad decisions. Saying, for example, "materials prices are going up" is all well and good but there have to be at least 15 instances in the past month just on Dakka where someone qualified to speak on such matters has indicated that material costs are virtually irrelevant to the process.
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carmachu wrote:
ShivanAngel wrote:People Rationalize PP..
It cost more per model technically, BUT YOU DONT NEED AS MANY TO PLAY!!!
What you call "rationalizing" is what most folks call context. for $200-$250 I can get a fully functional, and multiple purpose army for PP. Doesnt work the same for GW. Its part of an army. That makes a big difference.
ShivanAngel is saying the same exact thing you are in the post that you quoted.
Redbeard wrote: I really don't understand the international laws or intricacies enough to follow the restriction topic. To me, Mark Wells put a letter out on Facebook saying that they needed to limit Eureopean sales to Australia because they needed to support the Australian infrastructure in Australian dollars. Given that I don't have any data, I'm fairly willing to believe that, because it has a certain logic to it.
Well, I can't really place an argument against that.....I think it's a simple case of you choose to believe, and I don't. I don't believe they have analysed the needs of the Australian Market, we've had this discussion before. If they need to make prices so overboard that the customers complain, or feel jsutified in buying fro international retailers, then quite clearly GW marketing strategy for that region has failed.....I don't really see any other way of putting it.
Redbeard wrote: Having seen the picture of the new finecast sprue, yes, it's obvious that they re-engineered these molds to work with the new material. Who asked them to? I would expect that it was forward-thinking on their part. Metal prices have been rising a lot in recent years. For them to move out of metal may not have lowered our prices, but it may not have raised them as much as they'd need to be raised otherwise.
Well, I don't agree with this at all. The only resin sprue I've seen so far was of a new to market miniature from the Dark Eldar range.....that's no proof of re-engineering to me. The proof of the pudding will come from the blister packs that used to be metal miniatures....however, I think they'll be resin casts without sprues......I wonder why.
You call it "forward thinking"....that's your opinion. However, what's forward thinking about resin....it's hardly a new material is it? However, you can give GW all the credit you wish.
Redbeard wrote: There has always been a balance between what models they choose to produce in what material. Historically, plastic is used for larger pieces, where the cost of materials, or weight, are factors. And plastic is used where they expect more mass sales. Metal has been used where they expect fewer sales. The reason for that is that the initial cost for metal molds is lower than that for plastic, so to commit to a plastic mold is more of a commitment upfront. They've been pretty good at knowing where to make the split, with a few notable exceptions. One of these, I think, was the Bloodcrushers. Initially, they released them in metal. I don't think they expected people to want to field 16, or 24 of them. But, in a nod to old-school chaos rules, the 40k unit sizes for the elite section were all based on the favoured numbers of the gods, so khorne got 8 bloodcrushers as a unit size, and people did just that. A year or so later, they redid the models in plastic. That's an awful fast turn around. I think the Bloodcrushers were a tricky case. They were not quite as big as a vehicle, but clearly use a lot of metal. When they realized they were hitting enough volume on them to justify the plastic mold, they redid them, and they're a lot cheaper in plastic now, they actually did pass the savings on to us. Some people forget (or fail to notice) when that sort of thing happens.
Fair enough, I'm not familiar with the history of that unit, so I can only take your word for it.
Redbeard wrote: Well, yes, but so do I. I'm both a gamer and a painter. I buy boutique minis to paint. I also buy GW models to paint, but I game with them too. As a gamer, I recognize that there are cheaper lines out there, but as a painter, I'm not interested in their quality level. I've been painting minis for 30 years. I started playing GW games seven years ago. I avoided GW for a long time, not because of price, but because their models looked static and cartoony. In the late 80s and early 90s, GW quality was awful compared to Ral Partha or even Grenadier. That's no longer the case. GWs stuff is among the best. Of the lines I look at, only Freebooter produces more consistently good models, in my opinion..
And you have a right to that opinion. I however, don't agree.....I think the new Dark Eldar range, by and large is the best range of miniatures have produced...ever! Even so, IMHO, they still don't come close to certain other brands, but are we really going to argue on this point....it's a matter of personal taste surely.
Redbeard wrote: Yeah, my brother's father-in-law works in that industry too. Mandated 5% price reductions every year as part of the contract and all.
But you're supplying an industry, not consumers. Consumer sales and industrial sales are not the same at all. When the price of gasoline goes up, do the trucking companies eat it, or do they pass that along to the consumers in the form of higher prices on everything? If the price of copper doubles, and you've got a contract that says you have to reduce your price every year, you have to eat that loss or you lose the contract. I don't know how many contracts you have, but there aren't that many automotive companies out there. Losing one customer may well be 25% of your base. Selling to end-level consumers is nothing like that. One customer leaves, there are ten thousand (or more) remaining. You cannot compare hobbies like crashing Ferraris with mini wargaming, but you also cannot compare consumer sales with industrial sales. They're just different animals.
I think you missed the point of my "story".....you are absolutely correct, they are different.....however, the way markets work isn't so different. The long and the short of my point was, markets can drive a product and how a company deploys that product, not to mention price pressure. Take LG and Samsung, selling their LED TVs, if Samsung dropped their prices, but still produced a great product, how long do you think it would be before LG was forced to revisit their prices? Would consumers be happy to pay double or triple the price for a LG over a Samsung LED TV?
Even in the world of wargames, GW practically owns the market, so they can dictate the flow.....if there were more competition, we may see a change in tactics from GW, and one that seeks to embrace the consumer.
Redbeard wrote: That is, of course, your choice. They don't make you feel good. I, however, look at the competition and I don't see a company trying to screw me over, I see a company trying to exist in an increasingly difficult economy, in a niche market. I don't leap to the conclusion that they're incompetent or worse, I look for data. I find rising prices for metal, for plastic. I see similar price increases in every aspect of my daily life. And I realize that ComEd isn't apologizing to me for raising the price of my electricity and BP isn't bending over backwards to justify the higher price of gas, and I have no expectation that GW should either. They're not my friend, they're a company. They're not cheating me, they're supplying a product at market standard prices. I do not feel taken advantage of, not because I am made of money and able to weather the increase in prices, but because I have done the research to determine why the prices must be raised for them to stay in business. And I've watched other gaming companies that don't make such decisions go under.
Utility companies have you buy the short ones, unless you want to roll up to the nearest cave and start buring firewood for warmth, and using cave drawings for entertainment, you're pretty much stuck with those guys, and they AREgoing to take you for every penny. Do we hate the Gas companies? or the electricity companies? how could you not?....however, like I said, I need those guys, perhaps more then they need me....can the same be said for GW? If I don't buy that latest miniature, will I go hungry? will I freeze to death?...most likely not, so given the fact that GW needs me more than I need them, shouldn't their business practices be a little different to the utility companies?
I'm gonna leave this discussion there I think. I think we can agree we can argue this one out till the cows come home. I think it's fair to say, that we have both tried to wrap our arguments in pseudo logic and inform "facts", but the bottom line is this, we don't have all the true facts about GW, and how they operate their business. In the end it comes down to you and I as customers, and ultimately, how we feel as individuals. Either you can pull out your wallet and purchase with a smile or you can't....no one is going to be able to persuade you to change your mind, and why should they.
Some of your statements, do bear consideration.....but for me, I hate being bent over a barrell, and certainly not when it comes to my hobbies and how I spend my disposable income. Me going to PP and others, has opened up the gaming market, and left me less vunerable to the wiles of GW (whether Justified or not)....right now, I have some GW stuff (IG army, and a recently sold DE army) and I can play with what I have. In terms of future investment, I will try to help other companies build competition for the market leaders....that's my choice.
Delephont wrote:
Well, I don't agree with this at all. The only resin sprue I've seen so far was of a new to market miniature from the Dark Eldar range.....that's no proof of re-engineering to me. The proof of the pudding will come from the blister packs that used to be metal miniatures....however, I think they'll be resin casts without sprues......I wonder why.
We're just going to disagree on a lot of this, but here's the image of the finecast sprue.
This is not even close to how that model was cast in metal.
And for what it's worth, 35 points of Warmachine is not the same of 2000 points of Warhammer.
Right. However I can play 15, 25, 35 50 point games of warmhordes and it works well. 550, 1000 and with 8th even 15000 points of fantasy isnt the same as playingin the standard 2000 to 3000 realm of fantasy.
for me, it does put a bit of perspective on price increase of minks from 
). 
that! 
P comparisons. From what I understand of that game system, though, you're looking at entire 'armies' of about 10 models. It's never going to cost as much as 
)
)
