I've been wondering this for the past couple years, ever since i first heard of problems GW had with overhead involved in keeping their physical stores afloat. Where I live, there isn't a GW store in hundreds of miles, I'm not sure where the closest one is, but I know there isn't one in my State, and I don't know of one in an adjacent state either. We do have a couple FLGS in the area, with around 6 within an hours drive. These stores have plenty of tables and terrain, hold regular tournaments, and are able to exist and turn a profit without corporate support. Is there something remarkable about GW stores I'm missing?

With the market able to support FLGSs, what is the point of GW stores?

They are the main channel of marketing the hobby to potential users.

Tabletop wargaming is a very hands on hobby in which you buy, assemble, paint and finally fight battles with the models.

By far the best way to explain this is to get people doing it. This is also the best way to support people who don't have any experience in making models and so on.

GW's main recruiting base is young teenage boys. They want to capture these guys into GW games so they can take advantage of the wave of enthusiasm that accompanies any new hobby.

The shops are one of the main venues where potential customers can participate in all aspects of the hobby.

The other main venue is clubs run by veterans. The issue that GW have with clubs is that veterans don't play only GW games, so potential customers are exposed to competition.

But not everywhere has FLGS. My nearest gaming store is Games Workshop, a 10 minute walk away. There is a FLGS locally but their stocks are VERY limited. The only other FLGS stocks Board Games and RPGs but not GW products.

Mainly GW stores have been simply to promote their presence, High Street advertising if you will.

Ugavine wrote:But not everywhere has FLGS. My nearest gaming store is Games Workshop, a 10 minute walk away. There is a FLGS locally but their stocks are VERY limited. The only other FLGS stocks Board Games and RPGs but not GW products.

Mainly GW stores have been simply to promote their presence, High Street advertising if you will.

I wouldn't either if I set up a FLGS that close to a GW store. If the GW store wasn't there, I would guarantee the FLGS would have way more stock.

GW stores are much like the Platypus. No one really knows why they exist, where they came from or what their purpose is.. However, they obviously do *something* and have an ability to survive to produce offspring.

So, that's pretty much my explanation. GW stores do *something* and in the process produce offspring (revenue). As to how or why? Im guessing its as mystical as to why the Platypus lays eggs despite being a mammal

There are people walking into my shop nearly every week that wonder why my store, and retailers in general, still exist. It's annoying.

"Wow, how can you survive? Doesn't everyone just buy from the internet? I didn't know they still made comics/games/cards/models."

I kill every third one and sacrafice their souls to the gods of capitalism.

Part of the reason questions arise about GW stores existing is because we don't have all the numbers. With an incomplete picture, we don't know how the system works, and how much profit they generate. What seems 'obvious' to us, may be totally wrong.

We only have a FLGS where I live that allow us to come by and play for free anytime we want so the physical GW stores could vanish for all I care (except for the people who would lose their jobs...that would be sad :( )

I don't get it either. I've been to a few out of town, and they were pretty well corporate.

I love FLGS tho. Mine has been around for almost 10 years, and the owner is discussing upgrading to an even larger location. He does do some internet sales as well as store front. He's said business is better and better each year.

I think GW is just trying to cut out the middleman. They saw that online retailers were doing good, so they impose restrictions on online retailers, they see that the FLGS are selling slot of GW product, so they start opening up Brick and Morter stores to drive them out of business. This is all fine, a company is there to make money, and I cant criticize them for doing that. I just feel that GW should understand that the reason people flock to online retailers is because they can get a discount (something GW has NEVER given as far as I know), and the reason people go to FLGS is because they are convenient, and not full of annoying kids / annoying salespeople trying to push the newest kit in your face.

I was talking to the local GW manager yesterday. He was saying his store averages between $3k and $5k US/week.

This came up because he's bemoaning the fact that the price increases have increased his annual target number the same amount, and he is unhappy about having to sell starter sets for $100.

The store in question is a well established one, it's one of the largest non-bunker GWs in the US (by sales volume) and has been around for eight+ years now.

He was saying at the last managers meeting, he was told that why couldn't he run his store more like one of the other, newer stores. Apparently that store raised it's weekly numbers from $600 to $800 (a 30% increase), and the $3-5k that he was doing wasn't considered, so much as the fact that it wasn't a 30% increase over the last year.

I don't know how to interpret any of this. Mikhaila, is 3-5k/week good in this industry?

Kilkrazy wrote:
The shops are one of the main venues where potential customers can participate in all aspects of the hobby.

The other main venue is clubs run by veterans. The issue that GW have with clubs is that veterans don't play only GW games, so potential customers are exposed to competition.

Another issue is, here in the UK at least Child Protection. For FLGS and even Gaming Clubs to be able to allow members under 18 to play instore is if one of more staff/member is vetted via Criminal Record Bureau Checks (CRB), the process isn't quick or free. GW does this as part of their Employment strategy meaning that young people can freely play/paint/model in their stores.

It isn't far to imagine that similar things are needed across the globe really. And as such The Brick and Mortar Stores exist to grow young (GW) Hobbyists.

And I know the pain of CRB and stuff for Wargaming is a massive pain in the backside, most clubs I have spoken to don't want the hassle.

I'm not sure that wargame clubs legally have to take CRB checks.

If they do, a lot of adults are already registered from their childrens' schools.

It costs £10 for a CRB check and usually takes about two weeks to complete.

A lot of them are required by County Councils and not just with CRB they (normally council services) want the ever so slightly more expensive Enhanced CRB, at £28 and can take 6 weeks to set up (that is what I have been told by letter).

It seems pedantic but the UK has reached that "wrap Children in cotton wool" place. Child Protection can be a little "over the top".

But I am betting that it is part of the reason why GW Stores can function the way they have been for so long.

I managed retail (not GW) and 3-5k a week is not enough to pay for space, utilities, and wages. Leasing is expensive. Unless GW owned the land and rents out the rest to a strip mall that place is leaking (I'd say hemorrhaging) money. That's why most US grocery stores are strip malling. They get the land to lease to other businesses so they can get rent checks every month.

Redbeard wrote:I was talking to the local GW manager yesterday. He was saying his store averages between $3k and $5k US/week.
This came up because he's bemoaning the fact that the price increases have increased his annual target number the same amount, and he is unhappy about having to sell starter sets for $100. The store in question is a well established one, it's one of the largest non-bunker GWs in the US (by sales volume) and has been around for eight+ years now.He was saying at the last managers meeting, he was told that why couldn't he run his store more like one of the other, newer stores. Apparently that store raised it's weekly numbers from $600 to $800 (a 30% increase), and the $3-5k that he was doing wasn't considered, so much as the fact that it wasn't a 30% increase over the last year.I don't know how to interpret any of this. Mikhaila, is 3-5k/week good in this industry?

With the change over to one man stores, they set benchmarks and are looking at percentage increase as an indicator of how well each manager is doing. This has some validity, but obviously it's easier to make a crappy store better than it is to improve a very good store by the same percentage. But there is a bonus at the end of the year, based on gross increase. I'd rather get a bonus based on increasing a store by 120k than by 5k, even though the 5k was a higher percentage.)

As to the numbers: 600 to 800 dollars is fething gak. Hemoraging money. Who cares about the increase, other than giving the guy a pat on the head. That's a fine number for a FLGS who sells GW as a sideline, but very bad for a GW store that only sells GW miniatures. 8 years ago when the average GW was bigger, 20k a month was a low number. I think a store in Paris did 120k a month. The average FLGS with a small GW prescence might only do 1-2k in a month, your average store 2-4k, which is more than the 600-800 a week the one store you mentioned is doing. Quite poor for a GW store, good for a FLGS. A larger partnership level FLGS that does good with GW can do more than 10k a month in GW. Probably average now for GW stores, but on the poor end for what they did years ago when larger, and had LOTR pushing things.

You're basic question was whether 3-5k was good in the industry. 3k per week is probablyhigh average for GW stores now, in the US, 5k is doing good. For a FLGS, 3k is damn good, and 5k is going to be a number maybe only a half dozen in the country hit, counting over the counter sales, and excluding internet business.

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not sure that wargame clubs legally have to take CRB checks.

If they do, a lot of adults are already registered from their childrens' schools.

It costs £10 for a CRB check and usually takes about two weeks to complete.

Actually you have to have a CRB check done for every differently site activity you do and when you start a new one.

So I for example have had to have a CRB check at every school site that I have works going on on.

A teacher of long standing at one school would have to have a new one do if he/she transferred employment to another school as well.

I think the current government are taking action to curb this sort of thing.

They exist because GW knows their importance in ensuring a future for the hobby. And no, not their hobby, the hobby.

mikhaila wrote:There are people walking into my shop nearly every week that wonder why my store, and retailers in general, still exist. It's annoying.

"Wow, how can you survive? Doesn't everyone just buy from the internet? I didn't know they still made comics/games/cards/models."

I kill every third one and sacrafice their souls to the gods of capitalism.

Its posts like this that make me want to visit your store more and more

The GCN offer free CRB checks.. plus you can advertise in GW!

They were supposed to be doing a ISA (summink safeguarding authority) number but that's not come in yet.

Lets see:
uni enhanced crb for school mentoring
previous job : enhanced CRB, terrorist check, police check
now - nothing ^^ but enhanced CRB again for youth work...

Also the 5 years previous addresses is eevil when you've emigrated and then moved back (for uni!) aaaargh!

But yes, GW might be evil, but they're generally not convicted pœdos!

Creeping Dementia wrote:I've been wondering this for the past couple years, ever since i first heard of problems GW had with overhead involved in keeping their physical stores afloat. Where I live, there isn't a GW store in hundreds of miles, I'm not sure where the closest one is, but I know there isn't one in my State, and I don't know of one in an adjacent state either. We do have a couple FLGS in the area, with around 6 within an hours drive. These stores have plenty of tables and terrain, hold regular tournaments, and are able to exist and turn a profit without corporate support. Is there something remarkable about GW stores I'm missing?

With the market able to support FLGSs, what is the point of GW stores?

Not for you.

The only thing I can say that is remarkable is the amount of MILFs that go into the GW stores and prowl the strip malls.

Other then that? Support your LGS.

I looked into commercial property in Richmond, Surrey (west London for non-UKers) a few years ago.

The cost of a lease was £3,000 to £6,000 per month for a small to medium size space. That's just the rent, nothing for utilities, shopfitting, staffing, insurance, business rates, and stock.

There used to be a GW shop in Richmond and it closed down during the efficiency purges a few years ago.

Kilkrazy wrote:I looked into commercial property in Richmond, Surrey (west London for non-UKers) a few years ago.

The cost of a lease was £3,000 to £6,000 per month for a small to medium size space. That's just the rent, nothing for utilities, shopfitting, staffing, insurance, business rates, and stock.

There used to be a GW shop in Richmond and it closed down during the efficiency purges a few years ago.

In fairness Richmond is one of the most expensive places in the UK. Most residential properties there start at a million+ and the council tax is the highest in the UK I believe. It's pretty stuffy there, even the McDonald's has to have a wooden front (like ye'old McDonald's) so it doesn't spoil the view.

I remember the the Games Workshop you are referring to, it was actually quite tiny. I figured they closed it because there is a bigger Games Workshop in nearby Kingston, and having two so close probably wasn't very profitable.

To lock out competition. As long as you play at a GW store you won't be exposed to non GW games.

You know, there's a difference when it comes to how British GW stores operate, and how American GW stores operate.

In the UK, the GW store often seems to BE the FLGS.

In the US, the FLGS always seems to be the local comic store, or perhaps the local D&D den. GW stores are much less prevalent, much more spread out, and generally come into an area that already has a game store in it.

I've never understood GW stores. It appears that they hemorrhage money!

I don't really even understand the marketing behind it. I was introduced to GW in two ways. The first was a high end toy store had a couple of boxes of RTB01's I instantly fell in love, but I really couldn't afford $30 when I was in 8th grade! A few months later I saw GW at the new comic book shop and all they had were some metal blisters for WFB so I picked up my first copy of White Dwarf. I ordered the rule book and my 1st box of RTB01's from Crazy Igor's discount games warehouse, 30 marines and the Rogue Trader rule book for a whopping $36 including shipping.

That FLGS had all kinds of tournaments, they got me to play 40K, Bloodbowl, Epic, WFB, Spacehulk, and Heroquest, not to mention Battletech, Nuclear war, Magic the Gathering and many other non GW games. We played at the store, we played in peoples basements.

I don't know if you could have ever gotten me to just walk into a GW store with no introduction. I certainly would never have started if the pricing was as out of whack then as it is now.

GW stores help promote the hobby. Online retailers are evil people destroying it.

Smacks wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I looked into commercial property in Richmond, Surrey (west London for non-UKers) a few years ago.

The cost of a lease was £3,000 to £6,000 per month for a small to medium size space. That's just the rent, nothing for utilities, shopfitting, staffing, insurance, business rates, and stock.

There used to be a GW shop in Richmond and it closed down during the efficiency purges a few years ago.

In fairness Richmond is one of the most expensive places in the UK. Most residential properties there start at a million+ and the council tax is the highest in the UK I believe. It's pretty stuffy there, even the McDonald's has to have a wooden front (like ye'old McDonald's) so it doesn't spoil the view.

I remember the the Games Workshop you are referring to, it was actually quite tiny. I figured they closed it because there is a bigger Games Workshop in nearby Kingston, and having two so close probably wasn't very profitable.

What you say is true. Richmond is also a place with a large population of well-off parents of teenage boys.

The point is that GW expanded beyond their capability and had to retreat.

There are now 10 only GWs within a 10 mile radius of central London.

Ysclyth wrote:GW stores help promote the hobby. Online retailers are evil people destroying it.

You are joking right?

Andrew1975 wrote:

Ysclyth wrote:GW stores help promote the hobby. Online retailers are evil people destroying it.

You are joking right?

In my neck of the woods, Southern California, most GW stores are located in malls. They have a tendency to attract a lot of attention and get a lot of people walking into the store to ask what's going on and what product they're selling. I talked to one of the managers and he mentioned that most of his business runs on the proper introduction of the hobby to these passerbyers.

He'll easy get over a hundred new potential customers everyday.

Given my experience in FLGS, GW stores are not that hard to figure out. When I first got into the hobby via a LGS, there were some battletech players, a few players for another couple games that I no longer remember, and about four people who played FB/40k. You really couldn't just go for a pick up game of anything because without preplanning, chances were slim you'd meet someone ready to play the same system. There were only a couple of tables for gaming, only one of which really worked for GW. Stock wasn't bad, but for any system it was kind of limited.

Getting multiple people into the same space at the same time who play the same games is going to do more to keep players engaged and motivated with that product.

As much as I detest GW sometimes I think that their reluctance to shut down stores is a testiment to them and it is what keeps them going so well as they don't advertise in any other way

It just seams to me that GW would do better by working closely and sponsoring FLGS than running the whole store. That is a huge expense to pass onto the customers.

Andrew1975 wrote:It just seams to me that GW would do better by working closely and sponsoring FLGS than running the whole store. That is a huge expense to pass onto the customers.

They could, sure, but they seem to (locally- DC Metro area) have a mix of 'gamer' stores (the new one that opened last weekend, for example) that occupy a similar niche to independent game stores and "Vanity Stores" that are in expensive locations. I know there have been GW stores in many "Mills" mega-malls. These malls tend to have few non-chain stores, the price and requirements to lease space are high (some mall leases specify the tenant must fulfill additional requirements like redoing their store entrance every so often with a specified minimum cost), and the crowd is generally there to shop.

Vanity Store is totally my term, but I think it's somewhat appropriate. These stores are there to get a chance at prospective players who might not be aware of or feel comfortable in a 'traditional' game store. The new player who doesn't know there's such a thing as game stores, or family and friends shopping for a gift. Or even just guys who think the quite store with the Lord of the Rings stuff on the walls is better than following their girlfriend from store to store for another two hours. For this, they're great as they let people know about games they may never hear of.

I've seen a few smaller shops in malls, but they tend to be uncommon. I don't expect this to get better as 'good' game stores seem to be focusing more on event space, social stuff, and similar over product sales as they just can't compete with the internet for raw prices.

Creeping Dementia wrote:With the market able to support FLGSs, what is the point of GW stores?

Regardless of whether product is sold in a GW store or in an FLGS, there is still overhead to cover.

In GW stores, all of the retail price goes to GW but they have to cover the overhead.
In an FLGS, only part of the retail price goes to GW but the store owner covers the overhead.


GW stores are only a bad idea if they are considerably less efficient than an FLGS - that is, if the sales are lower relative to the cost of operating the store.

Without detailed figures on the cost of operating the GW stores and the split between GW/FLGS sales we can't work that out.


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infinite_array wrote:In the UK, the GW store often seems to BE the FLGS.

Yes and no. They often are the local gaming store. At the same time, the local gaming store is not where most people play - they play in independent clubs.

Andrew1975 wrote:I've never understood GW stores. It appears that they hemorrhage money!

This is based on what?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:I've never understood GW stores. It appears that they hemorrhage money!

This is based on what?

I don't want to put words in his mouth.

GW have a wopping 76% margin on their products yet they barely make a profit after several years of reducing their retail space, staff levels, and other efficiency savings.

They don't do time travel research to design their models, but something is sucking money out of the company like a Dyson. It could be Mat Ward's pension contribution, or maybe it could be their retail chain.

Kilkrazy wrote:
GW have a wopping 76% margin on their products yet they barely make a profit after several years of reducing their retail space, staff levels, and other efficiency savings.

I keep seeing this number bandied about. Where did it come from, or is it a made up internet stat?

I don't even know for sure what the wholesaler discount is, but I have to assume it is over 25%, or the discounters wouldn't make a penny. That's got to account for some of it anyway.

It's from the GW shareholder's report.

Don't have it on me, but from memory the total revenue from the last yearly report was just shy of 120 million pounds (not including revenue from royalties) and the cost of the product was around 30 million.

They have a whopping 80 something million in operating costs, that wipes all that profit out.

Creeping Dementia wrote:I've been wondering this for the past couple years, ever since i first heard of problems GW had with overhead involved in keeping their physical stores afloat. Where I live, there isn't a GW store in hundreds of miles, I'm not sure where the closest one is, but I know there isn't one in my State, and I don't know of one in an adjacent state either. We do have a couple FLGS in the area, with around 6 within an hours drive. These stores have plenty of tables and terrain, hold regular tournaments, and are able to exist and turn a profit without corporate support. Is there something remarkable about GW stores I'm missing?

With the market able to support FLGSs, what is the point of GW stores?

To better channel the hive mind.

Ugavine wrote:But not everywhere has FLGS. My nearest gaming store is Games Workshop, a 10 minute walk away. There is a FLGS locally but their stocks are VERY limited. The only other FLGS stocks Board Games and RPGs but not GW products.

Mainly GW stores have been simply to promote their presence, High Street advertising if you will.

But the flip side to that, is not everywhere even remotely has a GW store. In fact most places DONT have a GW store within 100s of miles. My nearest one is.....NYC and I'm north. I have 3 crappy FLGS around the area.

Another thing to keep in mind is that for those of us who want to play GW games with regularity and the local FLGS doesn't have a huge fanbase, then the GW store becomes a place to look for games. I personally find it a lot easier to find WHFB opponents at the GW than my FLGS, which is usually full of 40k, DnD, and MTG players, as well as Warmahordes groups.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:I've never understood GW stores. It appears that they hemorrhage money!

This is based on what?

I don't want to put words in his mouth.

GW have a wopping 76% margin on their products yet they barely make a profit after several years of reducing their retail space, staff levels, and other efficiency savings.

They don't do time travel research to design their models, but something is sucking money out of the company like a Dyson. It could be Mat Ward's pension contribution, or maybe it could be their retail chain.

That is about right! Their overhead must be huge, I've seen that report and just can't see where that money is going. GW has in the past noted that their stores lose money, but because they bring in new business and increase exposure they believe it is worth the cost.

The old outrider programs really were the best, they needed to expand and improve that program instead of building their own stores.

I don't know about you guys, but I have never had a problem setting up games, isn't that what cell phones are for? Do people really expect to just bring an army to the store and have people just waiting to play?

If they're counting physical goods as 'cost of sales' then that makes a lot of sense to me. Salaries and equipment costs (mold production and the like) would account for some of the difference, and operating stores the rest I guess. I don't think that one number in the shareholder report tells the whole picture, and it's misleading to think it does.

You have to look also at "Operating Expenses". Not just Cost of Sales.

Redbeard wrote:If they're counting physical goods as 'cost of sales' then that makes a lot of sense to me. Salaries and equipment costs (mold production and the like) would account for some of the difference, and operating stores the rest I guess. I don't think that one number in the shareholder report tells the whole picture, and it's misleading to think it does.

You have to look also at "Operating Expenses". Not just Cost of Sales.

I think you need to take a look at the financial report. It's pretty clear that the operating expenses are eating most of the profit. Much of that has to be from the stores.

The more "operating expenses" you can set off against ypour incoming cashflow, the less "profit" is taxable.

If the shareholders thought GW would be turned into a money factory by dumping the stores, that's what would happen.

Lara wrote:The more "operating expenses" you can set off against ypour incoming cashflow, the less "profit" is taxable.

If the shareholders thought GW would be turned into a money factory by dumping the stores, that's what would happen.

That only works to a point and GW has blown it way out of proportion. A good business doesn't intentionally lose a large portion of it profits just for a tax break. It's really poor business.

There isn't a GW store anywhere near my home, closest ones are in Washington DC, needless to say not worth the drive. But I was up north awhile back, and found a GW brick and mortar on the way back home and told my girlfriend we should stop. It was in a mall of sorts, I walk in and am immediately assailed by the guy at the counter, now I know the retail game, I worked for 4 years collectively in different kinds and even help out of my FLGS, but this guy...he was relentless, everything I picked up he tried to sell to me and talk about up selling god. All I wanted was a battle force for space marines so I could learn to play with my friend but I'll be damned if he didn't try to shove the whole Space Marine line down my throat. On our way out my girlfriend asked if everyone in this game was like that and I said I hope not.

Story time out of the way, apparently my experience is not uncommon, at least according to my fellow Americans. How is it some of these stores stay in business and is my experience common?

There is helping the customer and there is hounding him. I resolved after that if there is a GW anywhere I am visiting if I wanna see it I am going to pretend I am mute/partially deaf to see how they handle it or if they just leave me alone until i say something.

Doktah wrote:There isn't a GW store anywhere near my home, closest ones are in Washington DC, needless to say not worth the drive. But I was up north awhile back, and found a GW brick and mortar on the way back home and told my girlfriend we should stop. It was in a mall of sorts, I walk in and am immediately assailed by the guy at the counter, now I know the retail game, I worked for 4 years collectively in different kinds and even help out of my FLGS, but this guy...he was relentless, everything I picked up he tried to sell to me and talk about up selling god. All I wanted was a battle force for space marines so I could learn to play with my friend but I'll be damned if he didn't try to shove the whole Space Marine line down my throat. On our way out my girlfriend asked if everyone in this game was like that and I said I hope not.

Story time out of the way, apparently my experience is not uncommon, at least according to my fellow Americans. How is it some of these stores stay in business and is my experience common?

There is helping the customer and there is hounding him. I resolved after that if there is a GW anywhere I am visiting if I wanna see it I am going to pretend I am mute/partially deaf to see how they handle it or if they just leave me alone until i say something.

This is generally why the FLGS is better, no real hounding, if you become a regular they may start ordering things for you and setting them aside. It's called customer sales, it generates more sales then "sales tactics" do!

As far as I can tell, GW considers them 'Advertising'. They attract curious people off the street in a much better way than print or TV advertising possibly could.

I think Australia is a bit of a cross between the US and the UK. We have about 25M people spread over the approximate area of the entire US - but something like 75% of that is clustered around the 6 capitol cities. We have a lot of desert. So in a state with population 2M, GW manages to have 3 GW stores in the capitol city of 1M.
Most people I know have seen the main GW store here - its in the heart of the CBD. So their advertising is reasonably effective.

As far as I can estimate from their financials, GW makes pretty much the same level of profit, on average, from their retail stores as from selling to independents. But they get the added bonus of advertising! So if a GW is making somewhere upwards of 30%of RRP profit, after factoring in CoGS, rent, wages, they're actually doing pretty well.

I think there is definitely the need for 'flagship' GW stores. But I don't think they should be supported to the detriment of the Hobby.

GWs best idea with regard to retail was the 'Tiger' store (at least that was its nickname when I worked for GW, can't remember what its actual name was), but sadly it never took off because of the usual GW corporate idiocy.

The idea was to have a gaming club - they rented a warehouse space, stuck a couple of dozen tables in there, a few sofas, drinks machine, etc and had a retail area off to one side that stocked a pretty comprehensive range of GW product (including stuff that even back then was usually direct-only). It was much bigger than a normal GW, provided a better gaming environment, had adequate parking right outside the door and was created with holding events in mind.

There was talk that this would become the 'new model' and that GW would move away from lots of tiny shops that you couldn't play in to fewer bigger (and cheaper, rent and staff-wise) gaming 'hubs' - part GW store, part games club.

I think now as I did then that this was a fantastic idea, but needless to say the experiment failed.

Why? Because GW chose a location (Sheffield) that already had two GW stores, one of which was in walking distance of the 'Tiger'. They wanted it to run events but put it 30 miles north of Warhammer World in Nottingham and 25 miles south of GW Wakefield - one of the biggest stores in the UK and one which has its own gaming hall and regularly runs events.
Coupled with the fact that they (as usual) didn't advertise it and the site couldn't be seen from the road its failure was inevitable.

GW - maintaining the highest standards of Corporate Stupidity since its floatation

alphaomega wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The shops are one of the main venues where potential customers can participate in all aspects of the hobby.

The other main venue is clubs run by veterans. The issue that GW have with clubs is that veterans don't play only GW games, so potential customers are exposed to competition.

Another issue is, here in the UK at least Child Protection. For FLGS and even Gaming Clubs to be able to allow members under 18 to play instore is if one of more staff/member is vetted via Criminal Record Bureau Checks (CRB), the process isn't quick or free. GW does this as part of their Employment strategy meaning that young people can freely play/paint/model in their stores.

It isn't far to imagine that similar things are needed across the globe really. And as such The Brick and Mortar Stores exist to grow young (GW) Hobbyists.

And I know the pain of CRB and stuff for Wargaming is a massive pain in the backside, most clubs I have spoken to don't want the hassle.

here in the usa no not unless the state county or city pass some kind of law and i never heard of such a thing.

Andrew1975 wrote:I think you need to take a look at the financial report. It's pretty clear that the operating expenses are eating most of the profit. Much of that has to be from the stores.

I think you need to look at more financial reports in general. Operating Expenses are the largest cost for most companies, and include things like salaries. Yes, Operating Expenses eat into profits, you're right. That doesn't mean that they're something you can just handwave away.

Redbeard wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
GW have a wopping 76% margin on their products yet they barely make a profit after several years of reducing their retail space, staff levels, and other efficiency savings.

I keep seeing this number bandied about. Where did it come from, or is it a made up internet stat?

I don't even know for sure what the wholesaler discount is, but I have to assume it is over 25%, or the discounters wouldn't make a penny. That's got to account for some of it anyway.

The Gross Margin figures comes from GW's own interim Financial Statement of late last year. I haven't looked to see if they repeat the statement in the recent end of year Statement. I would be very surprised if it changed much, since Kirby was quoted in The Guardian as saying that GW continues to have excellent margins.

Subject to the usual accounting caveats, I believe what GW put in their financial statements and accompanying blurb as there are pretty strict legal penalties for outright lying in such documents.

I'm not saying they're lying, I'm saying that simply citing the 'Cost of Sales' or margins relative to cost of sales figures, without also considering the Operating Costs is misleading, and not presenting the whole picture.

Yeah, I'd be pretty ticked off if I knew a company was making 76% profit on stuff they sold me. That seems exploitive.

But that's not true. They might have a 76% margin over the cost of producing the goods from raw materials, but salaries and equipment need to be figured in as well.

As it stands, they made 13 million in profit last year, on a revenue of 121.8 million (GBP). That's not a 76% margin, that's roughly 10%. Looking closer, you see that broken down.

Wages and assorted employee costs (social security, pension, etc): 50 million (40% of revenue goes here).

You can also find numbers for capital expenditures and other operating costs if you read the report in depth. The margins on the product might be good, but that's because the margins on the product also have to cover the salaries and equipment costs.


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Edit:

I'm not pro-GW or anti-GW really. I am pro-truth though, and pro-supporting positions with facts.

If someone wants to argue that a company making 10% profit, rather than lowering prices is too much, I have no opposition to that argument, because it's based on the truth. I just feel that it is presenting data inaccurately to say that they're running a 76% margin without explaining what that actually means.

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not sure that wargame clubs legally have to take CRB checks.

If they do, a lot of adults are already registered from their childrens' schools.

It costs £10 for a CRB check and usually takes about two weeks to complete.

Not in the UK they aren't. Wife just paid £44 for her last one.

Balance wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:It just seams to me that GW would do better by working closely and sponsoring FLGS than running the whole store. That is a huge expense to pass onto the customers.

I've seen a few smaller shops in malls, but they tend to be uncommon. I don't expect this to get better as 'good' game stores seem to be focusing more on event space, social stuff, and similar over product sales as they just can't compete with the internet for raw prices.

GW works with independents, but with any partnership, it takes two sides to make it work. Overall GW is more supportive of LGS than any other manufacturer I know of, with the possible exception of WOTC. WOTC has their huge organized play network, GW helps out more with prizes, racking, etc. Past the basics, the next step is the store working with GW. I know of stores that complain they don't sell much GW, but they don't stock it, have play space, or a paint rack. Not surprising they sell less than stores with those things. At times GW has had some very supportive programs, but it's very hit or miss as to whether or not stores learn from them and increase sales. I think how they are doing things now is good, giving stores support, but also anchoring some areas with company stores.

As to competing with the internet, it's fairly simple: Make your store clean and organized. Have the product your customer wants to buy in the store. Run events or provide play space to bring them in.

Too many stores give up and decide they can't compete with The Interwebs/Warstore/GW store/Store down the street/etc. You have to do something to make people want to come into your store. Having what they want is a key part of that. Product sales are always the best way to make a store profitable, and you can't sell what you don't have in the store.

Agreeing with the above, and adding some new details:
The function of the store is as an open front to attract buyers and market the both the Hobby (in this specific sense bearing the meaning of all products, affiliations, games, models, tools, paints and such other things as may not have been mentioned, that are the purview of Games Workshop's store), as well as the hobby. Way back when, miniatures weren't that popular, and even then, it was a very specialist historical thing. GW made it explosive, it made it fun, and let you do whatever you wanted. By fronting a store you give an environment for people to shop and play at. If people come to play a game or two, then they're already there, hey, why not buy that devvy squad I always needed.

Success:
I would say GW has had a substantial amount of success with the stores. While its unpopular, being a store that carries exclusively your own product, you can have a back-up that bounces off of itself, attract someone for fantasy battle, have them get into it, and find out they like 40k more, and vice versa. Its cost effective for advertising, and by being the store that carries what you need and can show you how things work and what you can do with models, then you dont have to order it by phone, mail etc (pre-inturnetz), and you also don't have to pay shipping costs (also pre inurnetz). Given that GW now has a wide penetration of the market, I would say this measure has met great success.

However, GW's hobbies are now... well.. ubiquitous. Most anyone into table-top wargaming will know about GW's product line and games, but the competition, prices as well as a market filled with unwanted models and out-of-production models, the consumer has a wide range of things to select from. A brand new box still has appeal, because its akin to a blank canvass, however, if one is uninterested in creating something different though, or kitbashing, that appeal is almost nil. Between the ubiquity and utilitarian model construction, and other company competition, its hard to argue what real revenue the stores generate. Any person who compares prices will be inclined to get GW product at a discount price. Arguably, GW is still receiving a portion of the money, they are however receiving less. If you look at the difference, a Brick-Mortar GW will not be earning that sale though, and operates at a net loss. This is exacerbated by the fact that if a FLGS has the same prices as GW, but I can also play other games on the tables, the interest in going to GW is doubly less. So?

Well, lets work this out. Lets say the rental fee, with insurance costs, phone lines, directory advertising, etc. for the space at a mall is... hypothetically... $1500 a month. I bet its more, but for arguments sake, we shall leave this amount here. Second, lets account for 2 staff during 'busy' times, and 1 staff during 'off' times. Let's assume its 50/50 split, so we have 1.5 employees working round the clock for, lets say, for an average of 9 hours a day, paid $11/hour. That is about $4600 of time pay. We will assume there is no commission. So far we are at $6100. In a given month, does a GW really make the kind of money to cover that month for month? I'm sure, november, december and january see a surge in sales, and then again wherever tax periods are over. A FLGS might have the same costs, but is less likely to eject you for using non-GW stuff in a GW trademark game. Winter Guard Rifle Corps make nice IG alternatives to vostroyans and valhallans.

On the whole though? GW stores have reached their end. Everything they carry is more expensive than the brand names that have been around for decades. The price of GW brand glue will see you get 3x the ammount from a non-GW brand for the same price. The paint is less, and you pay more, and not as diverse. Even the tools are more expensive. That drives a large portion of the customers away and prevents people from buying. Its no longer a question of buying slowly, because even then, I calculate it out and decide in the long run, better spent elsewhere. Thus, GW stores are incurring a cost, without really generating enough profit on their own. They still work as an advertising front, as well as a tournament location. In theory, the attraction of the discount stores increases the movement of GW product, which should also increase revenue. At this point though, whether or not the B&M GW still exists is utterly irrelevant for all of the reasons I have listed above. All GW stores do, are to give 4 or 5 people a paycheck and incur rental expenses, increasing the overall operating costs.

If they got rid of GW stores today, we wouldn't see a price decrease. Still, we wouldn't be seeing a price increase either for the next four or five years.

poda_t wrote:Well, lets work this out. Lets say the rental fee, with insurance costs, phone lines, directory advertising, etc. for the space at a mall is... hypothetically... $1500 a month. I bet its more, but for arguments sake, we shall leave this amount here. Second, lets account for 2 staff during 'busy' times, and 1 staff during 'off' times. Let's assume its 50/50 split, so we have 1.5 employees working round the clock for, lets say, for an average of 9 hours a day, paid $11/hour. That is about $4600 of time pay. We will assume there is no commission. So far we are at $6100. In a given month, does a GW really make the kind of money to cover that month for month? I'm sure, november, december and january see a surge in sales, and then again wherever tax periods are over. A FLGS might have the same costs, but is less likely to eject you for using non-GW stuff in a GW trademark game. Winter Guard Rifle Corps make nice IG alternatives to vostroyans and valhallans.

Good analysis, but I'd put the cost of rental fee, with insurance costs, phone lines, directory advertising, etc. for the space at a mall is... hypothetically... $1500 a month at closer to $6000 a month, for about 1000-1200 square feet. My cost for those items is roughly 10k a month for 2200 square feet of space, in a less expensive mall. In a very good mall, like Mall of America or King of Prussia, that 6k would be closer to 12k. This is one reason GW is getting out of a lot of malls and heading back to strip centers, and dropping to small one man stores. Overhead is a big nut to crack selling toy soldiers.

mikhaila wrote:

poda_t wrote:Well, lets work this out. Lets say the rental fee, with insurance costs, phone lines, directory advertising, etc. for the space at a mall is... hypothetically... $1500 a month. I bet its more, but for arguments sake, we shall leave this amount here. Second, lets account for 2 staff during 'busy' times, and 1 staff during 'off' times. Let's assume its 50/50 split, so we have 1.5 employees working round the clock for, lets say, for an average of 9 hours a day, paid $11/hour. That is about $4600 of time pay. We will assume there is no commission. So far we are at $6100. In a given month, does a GW really make the kind of money to cover that month for month? I'm sure, november, december and january see a surge in sales, and then again wherever tax periods are over. A FLGS might have the same costs, but is less likely to eject you for using non-GW stuff in a GW trademark game. Winter Guard Rifle Corps make nice IG alternatives to vostroyans and valhallans.

Good analysis, but I'd put the cost of rental fee, with insurance costs, phone lines, directory advertising, etc. for the space at a mall is... hypothetically... $1500 a month at closer to $6000 a month, for about 1000-1200 square feet. My cost for those items is roughly 10k a month for 2200 square feet of space, in a less expensive mall. In a very good mall, like Mall of America or King of Prussia, that 6k would be closer to 12k. This is one reason GW is getting out of a lot of malls and heading back to strip centers, and dropping to small one man stores. Overhead is a big nut to crack selling toy soldiers.

Man, those are some good rates. The gakky mall my shop was originally in (Just a small cart/island) was $1k per month, and $5k for November, and another $5k for December. Remember, this is a cart in a dying mall. A booth at any convention is bigger then it.

poda_t wrote:Well, lets work this out. Lets say the rental fee, with insurance costs, phone lines, directory advertising, etc. for the space at a mall is... hypothetically... $1500 a month. I bet its more,

It's a LOT more.

Remember, it was hypothertical, and assuming it was minimalist store. I knew I had the numbers wrong, but its still hard, after my badly calculated employment costs, to meet $6000 off of two.... well... I suppose lord of the rings as well, so Three ranges of miniatures. And when you walk into a GW, the shelves don't scream steady supply, A hobby shop is brimming with stuff they forgot they had (and good stuff too) Its also hard to argue for GW's quality because for the same price you can get some really detailled stuff.

More specifically, how much wasted shelving space and floor space is there in a GW? My experience always has a lot of open space around, whereas the independents cram stuff together.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not sure that wargame clubs legally have to take CRB checks.

If they do, a lot of adults are already registered from their childrens' schools.

It costs £10 for a CRB check and usually takes about two weeks to complete.

Not in the UK they aren't. Wife just paid £44 for her last one.

That differs with the cost on the sites I consulted. Possibly the cost depends which agency you apply through.


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Redbeard wrote:I'm not saying they're lying, I'm saying that simply citing the 'Cost of Sales' or margins relative to cost of sales figures, without also considering the Operating Costs is misleading, and not presenting the whole picture.


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I don't think you are saying they are lying. I was just trying to clarify where the 76% margin figure comes from, which is Tom Kirby's mouth.

I don't have a moral objection to a toy company making 76% Margin, like I would if it was the water company.

As a gamer, though, I question the use of the bulk of that margin to support a retail chain that does very little for me, while stuff in which I have a strong interest (properly written rules, balanced codexes, a good release schedule of books and models) is neglected.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't have a moral objection to a toy company making 76% Margin, like I would if it was the water company.
As a gamer, though, I question the use of the bulk of that margin to support a retail chain that does very little for me, while stuff in which I have a strong interest (properly written rules, balanced codexes, a good release schedule of books and models) is neglected.

If all their sales was through independents then that margin would be drastically reduced (since stores buy the stuff for considerably less than retail).

As I said before, without much more detailed figures we can't work out whether selling through GW stores is more or less efficient than selling through independents.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't have a moral objection to a toy company making 76% Margin, like I would if it was the water company.

As a gamer, though, I question the use of the bulk of that margin to support a retail chain that does very little for me, while stuff in which I have a strong interest (properly written rules, balanced codexes, a good release schedule of books and models) is neglected.

From what I can tell, I'm not sure that the bulk of the margin is supporting the retail chain - any more than it is supporting FLGS. The prices need to be high enough that a FLGS can make a profit selling the lines, right? And so you can consider that any of that money that goes directly to GW or a GW store is supporting that store, but no more than the MSRP markup would otherwise support a FLGS.

I'm not sure if that's written clearly to get across what I'm thinking.

Let's say that they shut down the GW stores, got rid of their web store and allowed FLGS to carry the whole line. Would prices necessarily go down? I'm not sure they would. Someone has to sell the product, and they're going to want their share for doing so. Whether that's a GW store or Mikhaila's store or thewarstore.com, the end result is that someone is selling the product and taking a cut. One reason that GW can claim a 76% margin is because included in that is the approximately 40% (I could be off here) margin that goes towards whatever consumer-level retailer handles that part of the transaction. And that when a GW store, or GW direct-sales makes that sale, that 40% of the revenue goes to pay the salaries and rent costs of their own storefronts.

I'm sure that some storefronts lose some money. But at that point the question has to be, are they losing so much that it's worth shuttering them and going to more traditional forms of customer recruitment (advertising, for example)? And here, I don't think they are. Reason being, they're still in business. They do shutter really poorly performing stores, and some of their storefronts actually run a profit too. At this point, I have to trust that the guys running the business, with access to their sales numbers and strategic plans do know what they're doing. You don't stay in business making toy soldiers for 30 years without some basic level of business acumen.

We, buyers, might not like higher prices, but when I see their results, I don't see a company trying to gouge me, I see a company facing the same challenges that this economy is posing to many businesses and industries, and still managing to stay afloat. As I've mentioned before, in this thread, or others, my prices are up for everything I buy. Milk, beef, bread, water, natural gas, gasoline, guitar strings, you name it. Rising prices are inevitable.

I see what you are saying, but I've also been around long enough to remember when they were making a profit selling 30 marines for $20. Sure there has been inflation and the r&d plus design and development of the new miniatures costs more because they are more detailed. This is of course offset by volume though. GW probably sells hundreds of times more miniatures than they did back in the early 90's, this would actually bring the price per piece down, probably below what production costs were back then.

This money is going somewhere. The major change since then organizational wise has got to be the stores. I admit, I've never been to one, I've never needed one. From what I hear though they are not the kind of place I would like anyway. I move around quite a bit in the US and I have found games and hobbyists all over the place, most of these people haven't been to a GW store. Now maybe they are great at getting young customers that play for a little while and spend enough to buy an army or two. I certainly don't know any vets that have been playing for more than a few years that will touch a GW store with a 10 foot pole.

I play at GW regularly. There aren't any non-GW stores within an hour of where I live, and I'm in a major city.

The Chicago Bunker has been nothing but supportive of the AWC tournament series. We have been given access to a dedicated tournament room once a month and varying degrees of prize support. They do the same for many other clubs and groups in the area too. The only reason we don't do all our gaming at the bunker is because we're old and like a beer while playing sometimes, so to the basement it is.

Redbeard wrote:I play at GW regularly. There aren't any non-GW stores within an hour of where I live, and I'm in a major city.

The Chicago Bunker has been nothing but supportive of the AWC tournament series. We have been given access to a dedicated tournament room once a month and varying degrees of prize support. They do the same for many other clubs and groups in the area too. The only reason we don't do all our gaming at the bunker is because we're old and like a beer while playing sometimes, so to the basement it is.

Really, thats wierd? Because I looked at google and there sure seams to be a lot of game stores there. Now maybe they are small and have no room for tables, normal major metropolitan problem, I would have to think the suburbs would be full of them. I could be wrong though. I just know every other city I've visited you could always find a good FLGS.

a good FLGS with tables to play at is hard to find. the FLGS needs to not cater to just one thing, but cater to all kinds of gamers. If your FLGS has board games, table top games, card games, party games and still more on top of that, odds are, more than likely, it also has a dedicated gaming area.

Redbeard wrote:I don't know how to interpret any of this. Mikhaila, is 3-5k/week good in this industry?

that translates to maybe 20k a month. Honestly, is 20k a month for a store with multiple employees good in *any* industry? Especially in western countries, the answer is no.

20k a month PER EMPLOYEE maybe. Still, thats a pretty abyssal number.

(This is assuming USD. If you are talking GBP, then cut that number by about 1.5 for a rough estimate. Still, I don't think its doing very well.

20k per month is doing amiably, assuming that you still have anything left after costs. I speak with regard to the current economic circumstance, otherwise, I agree, it is on the low side, but even then, a generic clothing store, like a Jeans and T-shirt retailler will earn more by virtue of the fact that that is something EVERYONE will buy, whereas hobbies are specialties and see less traffic than the "necessity" stores

Andrew1975 wrote:

Redbeard wrote:I play at GW regularly. There aren't any non-GW stores within an hour of where I live, and I'm in a major city.

The Chicago Bunker has been nothing but supportive of the AWC tournament series. We have been given access to a dedicated tournament room once a month and varying degrees of prize support. They do the same for many other clubs and groups in the area too. The only reason we don't do all our gaming at the bunker is because we're old and like a beer while playing sometimes, so to the basement it is.

Really, thats wierd? Because I looked at google and there sure seams to be a lot of game stores there. Now maybe they are small and have no room for tables, normal major metropolitan problem, I would have to think the suburbs would be full of them. I could be wrong though. I just know every other city I've visited you could always find a good FLGS.

Just to continue this line of thought, the metro Atlanta area used to have two different GW stores. Both of them were placed way out in the suburbs and have since been closed. The same metro area has a half dozen FLGS that have all been open multiple years and seem to be doing well enough to survive, even in the current economic climate. I can honestly say I don't recall ever going into a GW store; both the ones we had in Atlanta were 40+ minute drives for me, while I have 2-3 different FLGS half that distance from me.

Haha...one of the FLGS wants to get a beer/wine license, but apparently they're really expensive....

When I started the hobby, some of my friends played LOTR, and I had just watched the films, so I asked them where they got the stuff from.

If they had said games-workshop.com, I probably wouldn't have bothered, as it was, I walked past the local GW "Brick and Mortar" shop whilst shopping with my mum and dad, and asked if I could go inside and have a look at the models.

And so began 7 years of a large proportion of my pocket money going towards models.

That is why they have brick and mortar shops, so that if people hear "oh, I got it from games workshop" they can think "ooh, thats that shop with the red and yellow name above the door, next to the hairdressers!"

I agree with you goliath, the trouble is, after a year or two is up, you start trying to see if theres a way you can get more for less, and you find it pretty quickly. Initial loyalty drops off fairly quickly and only the hard-core GW fanboys are left. Beyond that though, once someone enters the miniatures hobby, theres oodles more stuff out there which GW doesn't carry.

Then some of us others were already building miniatures, and wished they could actually do something with them. I used to do 1/35 scale, and got bored because I couldn't do anything with it apart from have it sit and make pretty. That was the initial GW attraction for me, but from there its seeing theres a wider world out there.

Back of an envelop calculation.

120 million revenue per year.

Gross margin on the goods is 90 million.

Let's be generous and say another 30 million goes in general expenses such as the HQs, factories, distribution costs, staffing in those areas, utilities, insurance, running digital services, investor relations, and so on.

There's 60 million left.

How much realistically do people think GW spend on research, design and development? How much does it cost to write a new codex or design a new model?

Dividend.

Deduct that, and what's left is the costs of operating the retail chain.

You don't need to try and ballpark it like that, as these numbers are in the financial reports.

2010:

Hobby center leases: 10,361,000 (GBP)

# of employees in sales: (though this probably includes direct-sales and trade sales, but maybe not)
Full time: 1,133
Part time: 275

Operating Expenses by location, Sales:
Northern Europe, 17.5
Continental Europe, 19.5
North America, 16.8
Australia, 5.5
Emerging Markets & Japan: 1.7
All other sales businesses: 2.8
(totalled: 63.8 million)

So, 63.8 million in sales expenses, 10.3 of which is the leases on the properties, leaving 53.5 in salaries and other sales expenses. Working with the number of employees stated above, that actually works out fairly reasonably, though you do need to make a guess on the other sales expenses.

They also tell you what the R&D costs are;

Admin expenses: 29.7
Design&development: 2.5 amortised + .8 (not capitalised)

(That's some odd numbers. Design&Development cannot include wages, as they claim 82 design/development staff, and that would work out to only 30k/year as an average salary. You know they've got designers who have been there 10+ years and have to be making more than that. I wonder if those salaries end up counting in the admin expenses category.

There's all sorts of data in the financial statements. Interpreting it all is another matter.

It's fair to say thatb in the UK, GW are often the only gaming shop in town. If they pulled their chain of shops, their UK sales would collapse. I think part of the problem is that they've taken their UK model (where they are often the only gaming presence in a given locale) and tried to do that in countries where they simply cannot saturate the market like that. And of course the risse of the interweb means that retail struggles more than it did when GW started and grew fastest.

When I ran a (non-gaming) shop that had (including me) 4 full time staff equivalents, we had to take £9000/week to break even.

So by the detailed figures, nearly 50% of the revenue is consumed in the costs of running the retail chain.

I wouldn't be surprised if al lot of the "designers" were on much less than £30,000 per year.

So if all you have in the UK is GW stores, then where do you get your other gaming stuff?

Andrew1975 wrote:So if all you have in the UK is GW stores, then where do you get your other gaming stuff?

Well, I´m going to assume the sitaution in the UK is similar to the one here in Germany:

Withing an 30 minute by car I have...
... 4 GWs
... 1 98% GW stuff independent store (the only hobby store in that particular city)
... 1 FLGS that has a wider variety of other games and only a minimal stock of GW merchandise

So it´s not that there are NO FLGSs, but it´s that GW stores outnumber them and/or lead to the FLGS stocking small amounts of GW stuff.

The UK is similar-ish

Pretty much every major town has a GW store. Then a few towns have flgs, many of them have no tables, they just sell the models. These are often comics shops/model shops that stock GW for extra profit. And finally there are towns like Bristol who have a 'mega flgs' which has tables and food and a place to paint as well as stocking the full range. But these are seriously rare. There's one in london I think, "Playin' Games". One actual flgs with tables in the capital city of the UK.


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Oh no, Playin' Games has shut down. Hmm, then I don't know any independents with gaming boards in london.

There are other game shops, boardgame shops, craft shops and model shops in the UK, just fewer of them than in the 1980s.

Part of this is due to the ridiculous cost of retail space in the UK. The reason why GW has predominated is partly because of their ability to charge very high prices and subsidise the retail chain, which works for them as their main form of marketing an recruitment.

I think most wargamers get most of their stuff mail order from web sites. I know I do.

Living in west London my nearest good model shops are Hannants in Colindale and the Dorking Model Shop in Dorking. Either is quite a trek and not somewhere you just pop into.




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The second thing to mention is that UK gaming is a lot more based around clubs, church halls, and people's houses, than seems to be the case in the USA.

But other companies are charging as much (on a per-model basis), so that indicates that either that is the fair price (what it takes to get the product to the consumer minus a bit of profit), or that they're piggybacking on GWs high prices to make even higher profits as they're not subsidizing a retail chain.

Somehow, I don't think the later is true. Someone is making that final markup. Independent game stores depend on their margin just as much as GW does.

You might claim that GW is clinging to an outdated sales model since the advent of internet sales. Certainly they could shutter all their stores and drop their prices. But I think their volume would drop off entirely. I think that having a visible presence is important in recruiting new gamers. Without that, this hobby would slowly disappear. Internet sales aren't going to build a hobby. And unlike trains or military modelling, wargaming does require opponents.

I think that physical stores where people can meet and game, or even just look at the models and see what its about, are important to niche hobbies like this, whether they're run by GW or not. And even if GW got out of that side of the business, I think they'd still need to set their MSRP high enough that the independent stockists can make a living selling their product. I'd imagine any savings they'd see would need to be balanced against an increased need to advertise and market their product against their competition.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The second thing to mention is that UK gaming is a lot more based around clubs, church halls, and people's houses, than seems to be the case in the USA.

Really church halls? Looks like i'd have to watch my cursing when happens

GW stores exist to extend sales and deny retail space to the competition. As other posters have pointed out, the status of GW stores in the UK and the density they have achieved which when I last took a hard look at it was something like 1 GW store for every 300,000 people in the UK (of course going by GW’s artificial operating divisions of Northern Europe, Continental Europe, etc. it’s technically 1 GW store for every ~638,000 in Northern Europe). Given that kind of market saturation, GW’s stores play a very important part in supporting the GW’s business goals, at least in the UK. Outside of Northern Europe **cough*UK*cough** it’s a different story and where I think GW’s strategy of having stores can be questioned more. Based on their 2010 AR, the breakdown looks something like this;

Northern Europe Population: 91,285,426 # of Stores: 133 Per capita: 686,357 # of stores needed for parity with UK: 0
Continental Europe Population: 267,206,640 # of Stores: 117 Per capita: 2,283,817 # of stores needed for parity with UK: 389
North America Population: 340,746,450 # of Stores: 84 Per capita: 4,056,505 # of stores needed for parity with UK: 496
Australia Population: 21,874,900 # of Stores: 36 Per capita: 607,636 # of stores needed for parity with UK: -4

As you can see, the number of GW stores in other operating areas with the notable exception of Australia (touted as one of their best performing regions), the # of GW stores do not approach the saturation that they do in GW’s home market. As a result these markets are under performing (GW’s words, not mine) and GW faces much more significant competition from non-GW games and churn, which is vitally important when brand loyalty is key. given the purpose for GW stores is to extend sales and deny retail space to the competition (which as a byproduct extends sales further), One can come to a conclusion that GW has a long way to go before they reach the critical mass necessary to achieve the results consistent with what GW sees with their UK and Australian stores. From an investor’s perspective, I would be very skeptical of GW being able to successfully pursue this strategy given the immense amount of capital and time required to execute, especially in the North America. So if you can’t achieve success and the stores are a drain on earnings, then GW would be best served by closing the majority of their North American Stores, leaving at most maybe one “feature” store in the most significant markets (an analogue is Lego Stores). This should be followed up by a reduction in their wholesale price to indie stockists (cost savings from closing their retails stores should support this) which would attract more indie stockists and give them the flexibility to develop and pursue innovative marketing strategies to increase their retails sales which in turn would increase GW’s sales and profits.

Instead it seems GW is fatalistically committed to a strategy of “eating their own” and what’s worse have taken steps to do the same to Australia given their inflexibility to adjust their pricing in the face of long term trends in exchange rates.

Kilkrazy wrote:So by the detailed figures, nearly 50% of the revenue is consumed in the costs of running the retail chain.

The point which Redbeard is trying to make is that closing their retails and letting independent retail stores handle the sales would not mean the company saves 50 million £. Theoretically, it would not save a penny! (assuming that GW's own stores and independent stores have similar efficiency as they ideally would - in reality, this is probably not the case so it would result to some savings).

If they spend 50 million on running their own stores, then closing all their stores would result in a cost saving of 50 million.

I think what Redbeard means is that their revenue would drop too, since their sales through independents are worth less due to the retailer discount. Independents and the web site might not be able to serve the same amount of product on a weekly basis.

There would be also the unknown effect of the lack of "marketing".

The unanswerable question is whether their revenues would drop by more or less than 50 million. A drop of 40 million would make the company as a whole much more profitable.

Plenty of retail companies are vertically integrated, e.g. L.K Bennet shoes, Zara fashion, American Apparel, and Uniqlo.) Some chains operate on a franchise basis.

Plenty of other retail companies are not vertically integrated. It isn't an automatic way to success.

When you look at the raw figures, it seems as if GW isn't a wargames company but a retail company.

McDonalds is largely a property company these days.

Some other considerations...

If they were to drop their retail shops, would they also drop their web sales? It'd make the remaining independent stockists happier, but you have to figure web sales and direct-only stuff nets them a fair amount without the storefront overhead.

It's hard to justify losing 50mil in revenue, even if it increases your profit, of which there is no guarantee. What's more, would they lose more than that, as people who have become used to thinking that GW is the only game in town now switch systems when shown there is more?

Based on past success, I don't think maintaining storefronts, even if they're subsidized to some extent, is bad for the company, or the hobby ("GW hobby", or even wargaming in general. How many people started with GW games and then branched out?).

Kilkrazy wrote:If they spend 50 million on running their own stores, then closing all their stores would result in a cost saving of 50 million.

I think what Redbeard means is that their revenue would drop too, since their sales through independents are worth less due to the retailer discount. Independents and the web site might not be able to serve the same amount of product on a weekly basis.

There would be also the unknown effect of the lack of "marketing".

The unanswerable question is whether their revenues would drop by more or less than 50 million. A drop of 40 million would make the company as a whole much more profitable.

No, not necessarily. Relative production and shipping costs increase if the total sales go down. And even if it did, the effect on pricing would be barely noticeable (if at all) from customers viewpoint.

I think there are probably much better ways to market than owning your own stores. They should have spent that money on a major movie instead of releasing a mediocre fan flick that only current customers would have any interest in. It'll be interesting to see if the new space marine video game does anything for their sales.

Redbeard wrote: I think that having a visible presence is important in recruiting new gamers.

I know that space crusade and hero quest had a huge boost in recruiting for GW. Does dawn of war successfully serve the same purpose? I'm not convinced it does.

(for the younger amongst you, SC and HQ were pretty decent boxed board games with plastic minis designed by GW and manufactured by MB. They were advertised nationally and sold in retail chains - e.g. Argos, ToysRUs, etc).

A number of retail businesses are vertically integrated, meaning they own the entire production, distribution and retail chain. To pick examples from the US, Japan and Europe;

American Apparel
Uniqlo
Zara

Other retail businesses operate on a franchise basis.

Still others are pure retail businesses, buying stock from a variety of suppliers.

GW are an example of a vertically integrated business. Given the amount of money apparently devoted to their retail arm, they look more like a chain of shops with a wargame hobby attached than a wargame hobby business which owns its own retail outlets.

Andrew1975 wrote:I think there are probably much better ways to market than owning your own stores. They should have spent that money on a major movie instead of releasing a mediocre fan flick that only current customers would have any interest in. It'll be interesting to see if the new space marine video game does anything for their sales.

There are better ways if the product was more popular. GW accept that their product does not have mass market appeal and cuts it cloth accordingly. It does however mean that it reaches more of those that would be interested before its erstwhile rivals.

The whole movie idea is a tricky one, do they fund it themselves which done correctly would cost the equivalent of a years turnover to make a "proper" one or it hand over to a producer, lose control and potentially end up with a buddy movie about a loose cannon inquisitor and his wacky ork sidekick with SoB love interest.

notprop wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:I think there are probably much better ways to market than owning your own stores. They should have spent that money on a major movie instead of releasing a mediocre fan flick that only current customers would have any interest in. It'll be interesting to see if the new space marine video game does anything for their sales.

There are better ways if the product was more popular. GW accept that their product does not have mass market appeal and cuts it cloth accordingly. It does however mean that it reaches more of those that would be interested before its erstwhile rivals.

The whole movie idea is a tricky one, do they fund it themselves which done correctly would cost the equivalent of a years turnover to make a "proper" one or it hand over to a producer, lose control and potentially end up with a buddy movie about a loose cannon inquisitor and his wacky ork sidekick with SoB love interest.

True, I'd hate to see a watered down, after school cartoon like GI Joe and Transformers had in the 80's. But there still has to be a better way to bring a product to market. There is still a very large section of the world that doesn't know what a Space Marine is, much less GW! I thought the early work they did with Milton Bradley was great. I can ask almost any male of my generation about Heroquest and they will know what I am talking about. The will not know what warhammer is tough.

The GW stores a pushed artificial market. Which is fine, when that market is paying off, but when it cost more to run than it's worth, gives the company a bad name, drives the cost of it's products beyond the reach of your average person, well I don't know if it is worth it. If the average person has $50 to spend on a gift or such, they can buy a complete video game or 1 unit in 40K, that they then have to put hours of work into. To them the value just isn't there.

The GW stores a pushed artificial market. Which is fine, when that market is paying off, but when it cost more to run than it's worth, gives the company a bad name, drives the cost of it's products beyond the reach of your average person, well I don't know if it is worth it.

All assumptions. Everyone jumps from "I don't understand..." to "this is a bad business model".

I've seen so many game companies go away over the last couple of decades, that I have to conclude that whether or not I understand why GW were so successful, I can't ignore that they were, and seem to continue to be.

mikhaila wrote:I've seen so many game companies go away over the last couple of decades, that I have to conclude that whether or not I understand why GW were so successful, I can't ignore that they were, and seem to continue to be.

This. I believe that the people running GW have more of a clue about how to run their business than the people posting on dakka. We might not like everything they do, but some choices are made of necessity, and for all the doom&gloom, they're still here. FASA, Ral Partha, Grenadier, and so many others aren't.

Redbeard wrote:

mikhaila wrote:I've seen so many game companies go away over the last couple of decades, that I have to conclude that whether or not I understand why GW were so successful, I can't ignore that they were, and seem to continue to be.

This. I believe that the people running GW have more of a clue about how to run their business than the people posting on dakka. We might not like everything they do, but some choices are made of necessity, and for all the doom&gloom, they're still here. FASA, Ral Partha, Grenadier, and so many others aren't.

Warzone from Heartbreaker (personally disturbing as they were 5 miles away and I knew all the guys), Star Wars from WEG, all the Confrontation variants, AT-43, SST, the near future thing from Mongoose with terrorists and marines, Railwars and all of Pinnacle, Rifts on lifesupport, no more DnD skirmish, Vor, Celtos, Leviathan, Grim Reaper........

A lot of GW's success was built on turning their shops from stocking a range of board wargames, figures and rpgs from a variety of producers to pure GW outlets and then heavily investing in expanding that chain when most such outlets were struggling in the UK and so becoming the only game (shop) in town. Turning White Dwarf from a general rpg magazine to a pure Warhammer/C one was an act of genius -- though I despised them for it at the time.




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I agree completely that they know their own business best. They've made maybe one fairly serious misjudgement in all the years they've been in business -- LotR. Maybe two -- not embracing the internet more could be another.

LoTR made them immense amounts of money. I would say it was one of the best decisions they ever made.

The mistake was thinking that the money was there to stay, not just a temporary side-effect of the films. They spent a lot of it on unsustainable expansion which had to be scaled back when the bubble burst.

However the core reason for GW's success is that teenage boys can't get enough Space Marines.

I've seen so many game companies go away over the last couple of decades, that I have to conclude that whether or not I understand why GW were so successful, I can't ignore that they were, and seem to continue to be.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think that they have been very successful. I think they have done a lot of good. I just think there is much they can do better. Their main problem right now is that they have a giant ego and there is a lack of serious competition. The US automakers were riding high and put their interests above their customers. We all know what happened next.

Warzone from Heartbreaker

I really liked that game. It's too bad that it fell apart just as it was going through the massive revisions it needed to become truly playable. As it was it wasn't terrible and I really likes some of the mechanics much better, but it really had a lot of bugs as some of it's mechanics were pretty awful. The 1st ed miniatures sucked for the most part, but they were getting better, the plastics that they came out with were vastly superior to the plastics that GW was producing at the time! Even some of the last Bauhaus metals like the Dragoons and Jaegers were better than what GW was producing at the time. Void was also not so bad.

The problem is that once one game claims complete dominance as GW has. It's hard to enter the market and be successful and compete directly. Warmahordes is not a direct competitor to 40k, its a different type of game entirely. Warzone was a direct competitor, pretty much on the same scale, just different mechanics. It will really be hard to unseat 40k from it's place as the king of sci fi mini battles.

I think to compete someone would really have to make a generic type of game where you could use your old 40K minis. Who really wants to invest in a whole new game. That is how GW has us by the sack, but that is exactly how they started. You were actually encouraged to use whatever you had.

Andrew1975 wrote:

I've seen so many game companies go away over the last couple of decades, that I have to conclude that whether or not I understand why GW were so successful, I can't ignore that they were, and seem to continue to be.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think that they have been very successful. I think they have done a lot of good. I just think there is much they can do better. Their main problem right now is that they have a giant ego and there is a lack of serious competition. The US automakers were riding high and put their interests above their customers. We all know what happened next.

A little from column A and a little from column B for me. Clearly, GW are and have been a successfully run business; you don't survive and prosper for 30+ years without being so. That being said, I think the GW of today are bloated, overblown and complacent, Its a point that MGS likes to hammer home and its one I happen to agree with; the best thing for us as consumers and for GW as a business would be for some serious competition to enter the market and exert pressure.

Just because GW are a corporate entity does not mean they don't make mistakes and does not mean they are infallible. In fact, in a market where they are so dominant the opposite is more likely to be true. I think it behooves us all as consumers to press and harry GW and ensure that they strive for excellence and value. At the moment, I don't think that happens enough.

Andrew1975 wrote:I think to compete someone would really have to make a generic type of game where you could use your old 40K minis.

Stargrunt2.

It's free.

And with unit quality and motivation as the core mechanics, it actually represents the immense difference in dangerous-ness of humans, marines, orks, etc better than 40K does.

Games with heavy use of counters bug me though.

filbert wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

I've seen so many game companies go away over the last couple of decades, that I have to conclude that whether or not I understand why GW were so successful, I can't ignore that they were, and seem to continue to be.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think that they have been very successful. I think they have done a lot of good. I just think there is much they can do better. Their main problem right now is that they have a giant ego and there is a lack of serious competition. The US automakers were riding high and put their interests above their customers. We all know what happened next.

A little from column A and a little from column B for me. Clearly, GW are and have been a successfully run business; you don't survive and prosper for 30+ years without being so. That being said, I think the GW of today are bloated, overblown and complacent, Its a point that MGS likes to hammer home and its one I happen to agree with; the best thing for us as consumers and for GW as a business would be for some serious competition to enter the market and exert pressure.

Just because GW are a corporate entity does not mean they don't make mistakes and does not mean they are infallible. In fact, in a market where they are so dominant the opposite is more likely to be true. I think it behooves us all as consumers to press and harry GW and ensure that they strive for excellence and value. At the moment, I don't think that happens enough.

I totally agree. I wish people should encourage GW to strive for excellence, and I don't think it happens enough. The encouragement part.) I see a ton of people yelling and screaming on the internet, and wanting GW to do what they think is right.)

Do I think GW always makes the best moves? Nope. But I also have some serious doubts that a bunch of armchair internet quarterbacks know how to run GW better than they do.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:I think to compete someone would really have to make a generic type of game where you could use your old 40K minis.

Stargrunt2.

It's free.

And with unit quality and motivation as the core mechanics, it actually represents the immense difference in dangerous-ness of humans, marines, orks, etc better than 40K does.

Games with heavy use of counters bug me though.

You know, I've heard good things and bad things about this. I read through the rules, they seam pretty good. There were some things that I thought were off, but I can't remember what they were. I have no problem with counters. I used to, but i got over it when I started playing space marine, with all the order counters.


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I totally agree. I wish people should encourage GW to strive for excellence, and I don't think it happens enough. The encouragement part.) I see a ton of people yelling and screaming on the internet, and wanting GW to do what they think is right.)

Do I think GW always makes the best moves? Nope. But I also have some serious doubts that a bunch of armchair internet quarterbacks know how to run GW better than they do.

Well I think as far as praise goes, most people praise them with their wallets. That really seams like the only praise they are interested in now anyway. They don't really interact with their customers at all. I'd love to say that it is because they are too busy, but I don't think that is the case.

It's sad because I do remember when GW was very customer friendly, I thought they were one of the greatest companies on the planet and I really wanted to see them prosper, little did O know the corporate monster they would turn into. Their customer service was much worse than it is now actually (you really couldn't return anything, and if you got a misscast you were pretty sol), but they made up with it with personality and interaction.

I mean I know it is sometimes easier to do these things when you are a little company. BUt when you can't have a forum on your own page, because, lets face it, it would be all griping. Then there is a problem.

Andrew1975 wrote: I mean I know it is sometimes easier to do these things when you are a little company. BUt when you can't have a forum on your own page, because, lets face it, it would be all griping. Then there is a problem.

There is a problem, but I think it's the nature of the internet. People who are happy with something rarely post. People upset post a ton, and pound topics and other people into oblivion. GW got rid of their forums because they were a no win situation. I'm surprised they are even trying facebook. People want to complain on the GW forums, and GW can either police the forums (pissing people off further by telling them to behave), or not police then, (and forums become a snakepit.)

And they don't need a forum. We can all discuss any aspect of the hobby we want on countless forums. People only want GW to have a forum specifically so they complain on them. I really don't see why they'd want to deal with it.

And yes, it is one hell of a lot easier to do a lot of things when you are a little company. I'm very happy they aren't one though. I don't miss the early days at all of seeing cool models in white dwarf and yet never being able to get most of the sculpts in the states, and the fights with distributors to carry the product.

Well, hum, I'm not so sure.

Just about every other model and game company in the world has forums and they aren't full of griping and complaints.

I guess that's because they are smaller companies and find it easier to please all of the people all of the time because they have a focus on the system their customers like.

OTOH if GW are unable to please more than a fraction of their userbase any of the time, maybe they are simply too large. As a customer I don't care how big or small a company is, I just care if they are providing the goods and services I want. As a Tyranid and Tau player, I don't have much to thank GW for at the moment, and a sixth colour of Space Marines codex won't help.

I used to go on the Eye of Terror until they shut it down. It wasn't all moaning and griping. There was plenty of positive stuff too and the moderators were good.

Mantic has their own forum - OK so perhaps not fair to make a like for like comparison to GW, but on the whole, the Mantic forum is a pretty positive place.

mikhaila wrote: I wish people should encourage GW to strive for excellence

So we should be encouraging them to raise prices to even more ridiculous heights? Charge us even more and give us even shoddier quality with each passing year? What exactly are we supposed to be "encouraging" then?

Besides, we do tell them "Good job!" and give them that gold star when they've earned it, case in point the Dark Eldar razorwing. Fantastic model at an unusually reasonable price, I like it. I love it even, despite all of GW's bs I'm actually considering picking up three of them now whenever I can come up with the cash for it (probably won't be for a few months though). And how did they supposedly react to that praise? They got upset, and now they want to institute a total information blackout, they want to silence the rumor mongers "permanently" because the razorwing was spoiled too early. What the feth.

Apparently, even if you do tell GW they did good, they don't care. GW does what GW wants, customers be damned. And it's that kind of attitude that's going to drive them into the gakker. Yeah, they're still around when other properties have crumbled and failed, but how much longer do you expect that to last when according to their financial reports, sales keep going down, and the only way they can make a profit is by doing massive cutbacks? The only strategy they have is "raise prices!" and that's not going to keep them around forever.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Just about every other model and game company in the world has forums and they aren't full of griping and complaints.

I guess that's because they are smaller companies and find it easier to please all of the people all of the time because they have a focus on the system their customers like.

I don't know about that. I think GW suffers from more than its share of hostility. I read a blog post from Blame It On The Dice that pointed out how GW suffers negative backlash from behaviours that are excused or praised in other companies. Here's some of that post:

Blame It On The Dice wrote:
Most people know that GW is an evil faceless corporation, and the PP is the gods gift to gaming. Here are some examples of how that bias plays out in the communities' reactions:

GW raises prices: OMG GW IS EVIL AND WANTS TO STEAL ALL MY MONEY!
PP raises prices: Have you seen the commodities prices on metal? It's the only logical choice for Privateer to stay in business.
(Fun Fact #1: The last round of Privateer price increases where in the 10-25% range. I can't find the exact numbers because PP has reset their forums since then).

Privateer switches to plastic: Have you seen the commodities prices on metal? It's the only logical choice for Privateer to stay in business.
GW switches to resin: WHAT! THEY WANT ME TO PAY MORE FOR LESS!! GW IS EVIL AND WANTS TO STEAL ALL MY MONEY AND EAT BABIES!
(Fun Fact #2: Plastic versions of older PP metal releases are 4 to 5 dollars more expensive.)

Privateer releases army books: You expect them to put all the units in one book? There are like a thousand of them, this way I can only buy the ones that I need.
GW releases a new codex: My army sucks now, and I have to buy 12 books in order to compete! GW IS EVIL AND WANTS TO STEAL ALL MY MONEY!
(Fun Fact #3: You still need unit cards for Privateer games if you carried you collection over from the last edition. That would be the forth version of the faction cards yet released)

GW releases a unit that costs $90: I can't afford to play this game anymore! GW IS EVIL AND WANTS TO STEAL ALL MY MONEY!
Privateer releases an unit that costs $90: Wow! This model is so beautiful!, and if you can't afford it, you don't have to buy it.

PP can't supply its distributors with product: Look how popular their game is! They can't even get it in stock so I can buy it.
GW can't supply its distributors with product: ...umm, not sure that that has ever happened but I expect the response to be something akin to - GW IS EVIL AND WANTS TO STEAL ALL MY MONEY!

Think about it. Privateer gets cut slack on doing a lot of the things that GW does. There are people who complain about privateer when they do things, just as there are people who defend GW. But in my experience, people are much more likely to accept that GW's reasons are for malice, and that Privateer's are the results of some hard decision where the customers ultimately come first. It's all spin and what we expect from the companies involved.

Here, people continually disregard anything that demonstrates that GW might be making smart decisions, in favour of their own little universe where they're a business expert and could do it better. I posted, in one of these threads, a list of prices for single figures from CMON, many of which were more expensive than a similar character model from GW. Rather than accept this, the responses would concentrate on the one or two cheaper models (disregarding the many more expensive ones), or try to invalidate the model I happened to click on from any given company.

I posted links to the consumer price index site, showing that Beef, Milk, Cheese, and Eggs are all up more than 10% from their price last year. I know this first-hand because I do grocery shopping in my house. Coffee is up a whopping 40%. Gasoline is up something like 20%. These are real-world prices. There are so many different threads on these topics though, that I don't recall where I put those links. But when I brought them up in another thread, rather than see anyone acknowledge that stuff is more expensive, I got someone yelling at me about how the burden of proving these stats was on me, and there went that discussion. (Last I checked, this was called a discussion forum, not a debate forum).

It seems like the anti-GW bias is so strong that no one is even willing to consider why they're making decisions or that other companies are making the same decisions. It's just GW is stupid and/or evil. After a while, the voices of reason just go away.

Without prejudice to your points...

You have to ask why people hate GW enough to see the negative in everything they do.

Is it just the perversity of hating success?

I don't know. In America, I know there is a tradition of hating winners and cheering for the underdog. GW is also a non-US company, so that might have something to do with it?

It could be that people are unhappy about the pricing, and so rather than try to understand and see it from the other side, they assume that because it is bad for them it must be so intentionally. "GW made something I like more expensive (or, in some cases, so expensive that I have to give it up), therefore I hate GW." It's easy to see that cause and effect. It takes a little more insight and a little more research to figure out why GW raised the prices, and if you don't want to put that effort out there, greed is an easy motivation to assign.

I think the volume of GW haters is probably as high in the UK. I suspect it's possibly because there are just more people who've bought their product and so more complain about price rises etc. But also there's no doubt that small companies are cut more slack than big ones when it comes to retail operations. Maybe because the people who respond to complaints tend to identify with the company they work for a bit more, or because it's easier to get to complain to someone who can deal with your complaint in a satisfactory manner sooner. Though in fairness some large companies have exemplary customer service (GW's is okay, the phone monkeys don't seem very efficient on the whole but they have always managed to sort out my problems on the second attempt, just never the first for some reason. But any time I've had a problem with an order, it's always been upgraded to next day shupping free of charge without me asking).

I'd like to see GW make more of an effort with clarity in their rules and codices but I can't honestly complain too much about their pricing policy (yes I'd like their product to be cheaper, but for what is that not true?)

Redbeard wrote:It seems like the anti-GW bias is so strong that no one is even willing to consider why they're making decisions or that other companies are making the same decisions. It's just GW is stupid and/or evil. After a while, the voices of reason just go away.

I've been thinking this for awhile now. Some of their policies don't seem to make sense and I miss when the company seemed more hobby-oriented, but perhaps there is a salient reason that the rest of us don't know about. Being a Liverpool FC fan, I know all about directing my anger at ownership rather than the brand as a whole.

Sidstyler wrote:

mikhaila wrote: I wish people should encourage GW to strive for excellence

So we should be encouraging them to raise prices to even more ridiculous heights? Charge us even more and give us even shoddier quality with each passing year? What exactly are we supposed to be "encouraging" then?

Besides, we do tell them "Good job!" and give them that gold star when they've earned it, case in point the Dark Eldar razorwing. Fantastic model at an unusually reasonable price, I like it. I love it even, despite all of GW's bs I'm actually considering picking up three of them now whenever I can come up with the cash for it (probably won't be for a few months though). And how did they supposedly react to that praise? They got upset, and now they want to institute a total information blackout, they want to silence the rumor mongers "permanently" because the razorwing was spoiled too early. What the feth.

Apparently, even if you do tell GW they did good, they don't care. GW does what GW wants, customers be damned. And it's that kind of attitude that's going to drive them into the gakker. Yeah, they're still around when other properties have crumbled and failed, but how much longer do you expect that to last when according to their financial reports, sales keep going down, and the only way they can make a profit is by doing massive cutbacks? The only strategy they have is "raise prices!" and that's not going to keep them around forever.

My post makes a bit more sense when you realize it was the guy before me that had the "encourage GW to excellance" line.) Mine was a bit of sarcasm, based on the idea that no one actually does it, just gripes.) You have to remember that while you have a large percentage of the Sarcasm Market, some of us still have small supplies.

Creeping Dementia wrote:I've been wondering this for the past couple years, ever since i first heard of problems GW had with overhead involved in keeping their physical stores afloat. Where I live, there isn't a GW store in hundreds of miles, I'm not sure where the closest one is, but I know there isn't one in my State, and I don't know of one in an adjacent state either. We do have a couple FLGS in the area, with around 6 within an hours drive. These stores have plenty of tables and terrain, hold regular tournaments, and are able to exist and turn a profit without corporate support. Is there something remarkable about GW stores I'm missing?

With the market able to support FLGSs, what is the point of GW stores?

Well i just did a search of the closest GW Store near you, well Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming and Idaho don't have any, but the closest GW is GW Union Landing over 500 milles away in California, if you start walking now you may get there by Christmas