I'm honestly curious, what has GW done recently to warrant so much anger from the community?

Their price rise of 5 to 10 bucks for a couple of sets? The embargo against out-of-Europe shipping for indie stockists? Something else that I missed?

If this is in some way flame-baiting, I'm sorry in advance, but I really don't get all the anger and hatred towards GW, and I was hoping somebody would explain so that I can decide whether it's worth continuing to play before I buy more plastic/resin gold.

Been under a rock the past week and a half?

Was switching to a cheaper material to save on production costs yet raising the prices not enough for you?
Was banning sales to the southern hemisphere except by southern hemisphere retailers not a big enough thing to notice?
Was an up-to 25% price rise on books and plastic kits something that skipped by?
Was a doubling-down on secrecy and preview information something you didn't notice?
Was reorganising WD subscriptions to arrive a week after they come out in stores to vague?

^I stopped playing for most of the year as college began, with the year over I'm testing the waters to see if coming back is worth it.

At these prices? Certainly not. Keep what you got and play with that, or just walk on by.

Despite what some people will tell you, if you still like the game, keep playing. I mean, yeah, it's mostly principle and business moves that cause hate with GW. The prices have shifted a bit, again, but meh, it still is within my range of affordability.

In the end, IMHO, I still think it's worth sticking around. Finecast looks to be interesting, and I'll be happy to take a look when it comes out. No one grumbled when PP made the change to resin Modedit: There has been no change to resin. So far only the new Battle Engines have resin parts, generally the large chunks. But most of the Privateer Press Line is metal.. I'm not a GW apologist, I'm not their #1 fan, I just love WHFB too much to quit. There's a LOT of people out there who will tell you that GW is the devil, and while I certainly understand the disappointment for GW as a company, I hope that you take both sides into account.

Ultimately, what keeps me going is the game itself, and the setting. If you still feel like the game is worth it, go for it. If not, PP, Malifaux, and others offer great alternatives, and I'd encourage you to check them out if you plan on leaving.

^lol.

My main issue with playing with what I got is I need many more kits to have a good setup I like...with BA, an expensive army to buy.

At this point Flames of War looks better and better.

Liking the game =/= liking GW.

True, but as someone whose only local store is a GW one, and who would have to go there to increase the size of my army, it's a big connection between the two. Though I'd try to find a local club to play with I'm fairly restricted.

Price is always an issue. IMHO though, all of the costs end up being roughly* similar. PP ended up costing almost as much as my 2,250 Dark Elves (Believe it or not) for my Cryx. Not to say that GW's pricing is reasonable by any standard.

I'm already looking at Dwarfs for my next WHFB project, and 30 Hammerers will easily cost $150...



*not always the case

Pretty sure HBMC hit the nail on the head. They've done so much stuff in the past week that has had a negative impact on most of their customers that it's hardly a surprise there is so much hate. Kanluwen and I (and others) have repeatedly stood up for them, but I can't anymore and I haven't seen Kan sticking up for them as much anymore either (Kan, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong-just going based on what I've seen and not intending to incriminate you or put words in your mouth). Some guys will defend them to the death and would pay $100 for a box of tactical marines, with everything direct order only, ebay sued and FLGSs forced to pay a 15% markup beyond GW standard price, but I feel they've finally done too much to accept anymore. If you still appreciate them, that's fine-your choice. But many of us who have been staunch supporters are finally siding against them. Vote with your wallet-if you support them, buy the more expensive stuff. If you don't support them, quit spending-this includes putting the last touches on your army before the markup then walking away (I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise).

Elector wrote:... and who would have to go there to increase the size of my army...

Why? The Internet exists. You're using it. The end of the week may see Canada shut off from online US discounters, but there are still Canadian-based discounters.

I've been supporting them strongly for a few years now when people bash them, but lately I just feel like I'm going through the motions.

I have a fairly strict budget, and as the prices climb I see my chances of completing my army (mostly in the process of building rather than completing, pre-markup it would set me back 650$ for the stuff I really want) fade away into the clouds...

So yeah, I might buy here or there, I'll certainly take care of them more, but I can't afford to buy multiple kits at a time and as new releases pile up I'll likely be left behind. On the other hand, I love wargaming, so I'm going to be looking a other games for now.

EDIT:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Elector wrote:... and who would have to go there to increase the size of my army...

Why? The Internet exists. You're using it. The end of the week may see Canada shut off from online US discounters, but there are still Canadian-based discounters.

True, it will have to depend on shipping and reliability, and quality. Also on payment options.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Liking the game =/= liking GW.

I know exactly what you mean. I'd like to be like, hey baby, you're a freak but you just got too much crazy going on, and I don't hook up with bunny boilers. But then Necrons are going to come out, and I'm going to be like damn girl, and then next thing you know, it's angry sex time again.

It's complicated.

People in Australia and New Zealand are even more angry.

The price rise and the shutting off from the Euro Zone means around a 110-150% increase in price.

Think about that... and then ask if you would be angry

Saw the thread title and lollorolled

It isn't just this weekend. Not been in the hobby all that long, but the GW HQ just seem to make the most bizzare, counter intuitive business decisions.

It is an accumulation of events and things have finally boiled over for some.

If there is one thing that has just been one moronic move too far it is a toss up between the Lamassu Head Iconoclastic Controversy and the decision to really turn the screw on our mukkers down under.
The latter prolly gets my vote, as it was a really stupid and aggravating decision by GW.

But what do I know. Apparently the investors think everything in the garden is rosy and sweet smelling.
They are apparently oblivious to the thorns and the horse muck being raked over.

I'm hoping the change in resin costs means that even if the
price is going up, there's a chance it will stabilize and remain
profitable at that set price.

Yeah, I know.

malfred wrote:I'm hoping the change in resin costs means that even if the
price is going up, there's a chance it will stabilize and remain
profitable at that set price.

Yeah, I know.

Oh Mal... you sweet, beautiful fool... you keep dreaming that crazy dream!

malfred wrote:I'm hoping the change in resin costs means that even if the
price is going up, there's a chance it will stabilize and remain
profitable at that set price.

Yeah, I know.

I'm just waiting for them to tell us around Christmas time that another price rise is needed.

I've only been in the hobby for little over a year now, and I am already on to the GW 'scheme'.
After visiting a GW for the first time a few months ago, I saw how the owner of the store tried to get little kids passing by the mall store to come in and look. Once they were walking around looking at all of the pictures on the boxes, I assumed that they believed that the actual painted models were inside the box. Being children, they want what they see and promptly got their naive parents to buy two sets of AoBR (which IMO has the worst casts for a 'starter box' ever). I could only shake my head and realize that as long as these kids get their way and buy tons of model that GW will just keep increasing prices.

Now I know that this isn't the ONLY factor that plays into these increases, but it is my best used excuse for the way that I believe GW works.

All of that said, I run foot guard, foot Eldar, and SW cavalry armies. I don't plan on buying any more models unless its a special unit here and there, so I have little to worry about financially with my wargamming. However, my friend is interested in getting started with necrons and if a squad of 'finecast' warriors hits $37 -$40 then I can only feel sad for him.

timetowaste85 wrote: and FLGSs forced to pay a 15% markup beyond GW standard price, b).

huh? thats news to me and I should know.


oh wait, now I see, its an example.

Ouze wrote: I'd like to be like, hey baby, you're a freak but you just got too much crazy going on, and I don't hook up with bunny boilers. But then Necrons are going to come out, and I'm going to be like damn girl, and then next thing you know, it's angry sex time again.

It's complicated.

Dude, sigged. Had me rolling.

Cryonicleech wrote:No one grumbled when PP made the change to resin.

That would be because they didn't. 5 new models in hybrid resin/metal kits =/= "making the change to resin."

To answer this OP 's question this is the internet and this is the only legal place to get rid of your anger over the course of a week of hate.

Sergeant Horse wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote: and FLGSs forced to pay a 15% markup beyond GW standard price, b).

huh? thats news to me and I should know.


oh wait, now I see, its an example.

Yeah, sorry it was just an example of a future possibility from the decisions GW has made recently that wouldn't surprise me in the least

ill still buy,just not as offten :(

prices have gone up on everything not just gw,just go to your local genreal store,food, gas,travel.......oh man i sound old manish now :(

all in all,gw threw three strikes in one week,and thats alot of anger in one week!!

31rls31 wrote:ill still buy,just not as offten :(

prices have gone up on everything not just gw,just go to your local genreal store,food, gas,travel.......oh man i sound old manish now :(

all in all,gw threw three strikes in one week,and thats alot of anger in one week!!

buying gas will make you go broke. Do parkour its better.
So will buying Games Workshop stuff. In order to surivive in this tireing times freeload by catching rides on your friends vehicles. either that or find your local ork.

Laughing Man wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:No one grumbled when PP made the change to resin.

That would be because they didn't. 5 new models in hybrid resin/metal kits =/= "making the change to resin."

Yeah... the new resin Trenchers and Gun Mages to replace the metal ones seems pretty indicative of their direction... as well as all the new Resin 'jacks

Those weren't accompanied by a raise in prices, and PP is much mire forthcoming with information than GW and actually makes an effort in maintaining good public relations.

Elector wrote:^lol.

My main issue with playing with what I got is I need many more kits to have a good setup I like...with BA, an expensive army to buy.

At this point Flames of War looks better and better.

Also, check out www.infinitythegame.com I have got all that new game excitement feeling with it now, rather than having an uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach any time I go near anything GW related.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:No one grumbled when PP made the change to resin.

That would be because they didn't. 5 new models in hybrid resin/metal kits =/= "making the change to resin."

Yeah... the new resin Trenchers and Gun Mages to replace the metal ones seems pretty indicative of their direction... as well as all the new Resin 'jacks

Wait, what? There are no resin Trenchers or Gun Mages.

Its not just a moratorium on stopping sales to southern hemisphere, but possibly a moratorium on selling out-of-zone if I read my sources right(and it might be now, it might be in a year, either way, it's forseeable. The moral is GW wants to rip its customers off, just compare the USD and CAD prices and comprehend what a 19% price increase means for your finances). In case you haven't noticed, Canada has one of the highest prices, barring austrialia, I'm amazed GW stores dont get burnt down and sacked over there. Most Southern as well as Canadian 40K players on here buy from discount retailers in the states to save on costs. Oveerall, people will likely keep buying and playing, but kitbashing and conversion becomes a thing for the opulently rich.

And my numbers saw some items go up by 30%, but an average of 19% across the board.

Let's add to that that GW employees generally tend to be donkey-caves for two reasons: 1.) theyre GW fanboys, 2.) It's unconscionable to have an understanding sales-person, because they are liable to give discounts, which is not a GW policy. In fact, GW has never dropped its prices to my recollection.

Still, any one of you braggarts with an all metal army are the ones that win on this one: its the one thing that keeps its value better than the rest, so long as treated well.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:No one grumbled when PP made the change to resin.

That would be because they didn't. 5 new models in hybrid resin/metal kits =/= "making the change to resin."

Yeah... the new resin Trenchers and Gun Mages to replace the metal ones seems pretty indicative of their direction... as well as all the new Resin 'jacks

The new Trenchers and Gun Mages are metal.

The only resin in the line are the large portions of the Battle Engines.

malfred wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:No one grumbled when PP made the change to resin.

That would be because they didn't. 5 new models in hybrid resin/metal kits =/= "making the change to resin."

Yeah... the new resin Trenchers and Gun Mages to replace the metal ones seems pretty indicative of their direction... as well as all the new Resin 'jacks

The new Trenchers and Gun Mages are metal.

The only resin in the line are the large portions of the Battle Engines.

Ahh, nuts.

Good to know someone's in the loop. Apparently the people saying it was plastic were wrong then.

$5-$10 price rise on a couple sets? Way more than a couple and for many sets there's a 20-25% increase just this one time after similarly large increases the past couple years.

I usually side with the "it's not that bad" crowd, but not this year. Even I'm having second thoughts about what I'll be buying going forward.

Have you seen this thing?
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?pli=1&key=tIytonRUpm6fRkxpIjqcDzQ#gid=0

Cryonicleech wrote:

malfred wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:No one grumbled when PP made the change to resin.

That would be because they didn't. 5 new models in hybrid resin/metal kits =/= "making the change to resin."

Yeah... the new resin Trenchers and Gun Mages to replace the metal ones seems pretty indicative of their direction... as well as all the new Resin 'jacks

The new Trenchers and Gun Mages are metal.

The only resin in the line are the large portions of the Battle Engines.

Ahh, nuts.

Good to know someone's in the loop. Apparently the people saying it was plastic were wrong then.

The plastic stuff so far is the Bastions and Cinerators and Warspears and some others.

It's still not resin, though some describe the plastic as different from GW plastic.

Being one cheap tight assed son of a bitch I'm not to hot for them due to price increases across the board with lower production costs. Simple as that; greed got hold of them, they start screwing over the customer to increase the bottom line and cutting information to consumers. But Australia gets the shaft on loads of things; hiking prices more for them is just plain cruel.

I love 40k and i have no intention of stopping my collections; but Ebay and discount sites will be my shopping zones until GW gets its act together.

Varrick wrote: Being one cheap tight assed son of a bitch I'm not to hot for them due to price increases across the board with lower production costs. Simple as that; greed got hold of them, they start screwing over the customer to increase the bottom line and cutting information to consumers.

I love 40k and i have no intention of stopping my collections; but Ebay and discount sites will be my shopping zones until GW gets its act together.

Far as i know no one busted a piston over PP resin switch; because they did not hike prices across the board.

There is no PP resin switch.

malfred wrote:

Varrick wrote: Being one cheap tight assed son of a bitch I'm not to hot for them due to price increases across the board with lower production costs. Simple as that; greed got hold of them, they start screwing over the customer to increase the bottom line and cutting information to consumers.

I love 40k and i have no intention of stopping my collections; but Ebay and discount sites will be my shopping zones until GW gets its act together.

Far as i know no one busted a piston over PP resin switch; because they did not hike prices across the board.

There is no PP resin switch.

Then i missed something on the first page.

Yeah, my bad.

The proper thing to do here is blame all my faulty sources! But yeah, apparently my info is old and incorrect.

Is it not resinin the newer stuff? All the battle box reviews seem to have reached the conclusion that there's some form of resin in there, or plasticy-resin or whatever.

Varrick wrote:
I love 40k and i have no intention of stopping my collections; but Ebay and discount sites will be my shopping zones until GW gets its act together.

Lol that'll show 'em! (Hint: they're still getting your money)

Cryonicleech wrote:Yeah, my bad.

The proper thing to do here is blame all my faulty sources! But yeah, apparently my info is old and incorrect.

Is it not resinin the newer stuff? All the battle box reviews seem to have reached the conclusion that there's some form of resin in there, or plasticy-resin or whatever.

Again, the large pieces on the new Battle Engines use resin.

They haven't switched any metals to resin.

Models that are plastic are a different plastic, but they are plastic (bendable)
and not resin.

I don't think he's boycotting, I think he's just finding a cheaper solution.

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up Malfred. I really need to keep up with my PP info.

evilsponge wrote:

Varrick wrote:
I love 40k and i have no intention of stopping my collections; but Ebay and discount sites will be my shopping zones until GW gets its act together.

Lol that'll show 'em! (Hint: they're still getting you money)

Hey discount sites they don't get ALL they would have gotten and i have no issue with buying used minis, removing the paint(the proper way) and doing them right.

Retailers buy product at a wholesale and then you buy it at retail. Discount or no games workshop still gets their cut.

Cryonicleech wrote:I don't think he's boycotting, I think he's just finding a cheaper solution.

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up Malfred. I really need to keep up with my PP info.

I edited your page 1 post.

Good good, just to keep things clear.

Buying from discount might see GW make money, but you can boycott buying at GW prices. Sure, GW gets the money, but I get 20% or so off.

Cryonicleech wrote:Good good, just to keep things clear.

Buying from discount might see GW make money, but you can boycott buying at GW prices. Sure, GW gets the money, but I get 20% or so off.

Exactly; and even then buying 4 battleforces with of troopers for 100 bucks on Ebay, buying a few cans of easy off oven cleaner, and scrubbing like a boss is still a better way to go than buying GW's raised prices.

Elector wrote:I'm honestly curious, what has GW done recently to warrant so much anger from the community?

Their price rise of 5 to 10 bucks for a couple of sets? The embargo against out-of-Europe shipping for indie stockists? Something else that I missed?

If this is in some way flame-baiting, I'm sorry in advance, but I really don't get all the anger and hatred towards GW, and I was hoping somebody would explain so that I can decide whether it's worth continuing to play before I buy more plastic/resin gold.

Do you mean that you are unaware of the causes, which have been extensively discussed?

You should read the threads. I don't think they are hard to understand.

As an Aussie, **** you GW.

The Australian dollar is at a massive high, and I was just about to place a big order to Wayland Games. Now I'll never afford an IG army!

It's already $41 for ten ****ing Guardsmen... what the hell will it be after the hike? Do GW even take the exchange rate into consideration?!

Gah!

[Mod edit for language. Please don't evade the swear filter.]

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:As an Aussie, **** you GW.

The Australian dollar is at a massive high, and I was just about to place a big order to Wayland Games. Now I'll never afford an IG army!

It's already $41 for ten ****ing Guardsmen... what the hell will it be after the hike? Do GW even take the exchange rate into consideration?!

Gah!

Psst... if you can get away with non-GW models, I'd suggest Wargames Factory Shock Troops - you can pick up a bundle deal, 127 models for $118 USD!

Cryonicleech wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:No one grumbled when PP made the change to resin.

That would be because they didn't. 5 new models in hybrid resin/metal kits =/= "making the change to resin."

Yeah... the new resin Trenchers and Gun Mages to replace the metal ones seems pretty indicative of their direction... as well as all the new Resin 'jacks

...The new Trenchers and Gun Mages are metal...

DAMN! Teach me to read the thread first...

thehook? if you plan to go to tournaments, youwont get away with non GW models.

Why not buy the IG battlebox and sell the command and sentinel frames off? I magine it might almost be cheaper if you do it right.

Once upon a time, in the UK anyway, GW did have a sale.....it was during the switch from lead based to 'white metal'.
I popped into my local GW and lo and behold, there were huge see thru bags piled high with mini's.
I walked out with a 2000pt CSM army, all metal and costing less than £60......but that was a loooong time ago.
I guess they won't be doing the same when they switch from plastic to fine cast. Would be nice thou......

poda_t wrote:thehook? if you plan to go to tournaments, youwont get away with non GW models.

Note: Since GW stopped providing ANYTHING in the way of tournament support and many of the tourneys source their product from other stores, it's no longer a consideration.
It was really only ever a "do this or we don't supply prize support" gambit. Now this crutch has been kicked away from them, they don't like it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Been under a rock the past week and a half?

Was switching to a cheaper material to save on production costs yet raising the prices not enough for you?
Was banning sales to the southern hemisphere except by southern hemisphere retailers not a big enough thing to notice?
Was an up-to 25% price rise on books and plastic kits something that skipped by?
Was a doubling-down on secrecy and preview information something you didn't notice?
Was reorganising WD subscriptions to arrive a week after they come out in stores to vague?

The top one of these alone is enough to make many people quit

31rls31 wrote:ill still buy,just not as offten :(

prices have gone up on everything not just gw,just go to your local genreal store,food, gas,travel.......oh man i sound old manish now :(

all in all,gw threw three strikes in one week,and thats alot of anger in one week!!

Pretty much the same across a good chunk of the world. It's all the little other things that get to you. Pay not going up for TWO years now, everything else having gone up. I think what sums it up best is the following. I used to buy these really cheap (probably nasty) store's own chocolate swiss rolls. I used to pay like, 10p for them. They now cost 25p. Most of my weekly shop has gone up by about 10, 15p per item. The last thing I needed was for my hobby to spike the price of everything else!

lunarman wrote:The top one of these alone is enough to make many people quit

What? Being under a rock? That doesn't make any se... oooooooh! The 'finecast' thing. Right. Gotcha.

Its they way they treat our Aussie and NZ cousins that really get my back up..... I wish it wasnt so, really I do. But you can't deny the price hikes are hurting everything. Petrol, food, mortgage, Electricity, Water, Gas etc etc....
It's getting beyond a joke.....

Sorry that this is off topic, but how do you un-ignore people? I accidentally ignored Sarpedon in another thread and I'm getting sick of hitting "show this post" every time he comes up in a thread, haha.

Sorry that this is off topic, but how do you un-ignore people? I accidentally ignored Sarpedon in another thread and I'm getting sick of hitting "show this post" every time he comes up in a thread, haha.

LOL...that's probably the best thing you could have done. He doesn't half type sometimes

@sarpedons-right-hand: Ain't that right bruv?

Seriously though, I don't know.

OT the GW hate is around every time there is a price increase - I did some digging & found a petition started back in 2005 - signed by over 3000 people. This time though it's everything else this past week & the way they make their decisions & treat their customers. Bad PR alone is enough to anger people, but bad PR mixed with everything else is like being punched & abused by the crazy person you happen to love while they do all they can to mess with your head - many can't take it anymore & are walking away. Even I've changed my tune this past week & I've lost all respect for them (it was dwindling anyway) but Well's response & every other issue this past week has me off no end. They've lost my custom until they shape up - if they ever do - as they seem to be managed by the Chuckle Brother's evil, demented twins...

...GW have become the Sunset Beach of Fantasy Wargames, just with a larger budget...

Just found this over at BOLS. Basically it sums up how I feel about GW turning like a rabid-vampire...

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

Ok I need some guidance on this on. Just had a quick look at Forgeworld site and can see 5 man resin squads selling for £20.40. So if my maths is right it would cost £40.40 for a 10 man squad.

Are GW going to let Forgeworld use any of this nice new cheap resin?

Is this resin made using any oil based products? If so are we then not open to GW banging up the prices when oil prices go up?

GW kicked my dog, slept with my sister, and stole my garage door opener.

kronk wrote:GW kicked my dog, slept with my sister, and stole my garage door opener.

Is that all? They also pooped in my coat closet and drank all of my beer!

I hate resin, it's all bendy.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Liking the game =/= liking GW.

What do you mean by this statement? After all, you don't seem to be GWs biggest supporter right now, yet, haven't you just placed a large "final" order with Maelstrom, obviously in the hope of finishing your armies and...dare I say it, continuing to play the game?

So I'm confused then, does this mean you like GW?

Delephont, the =/= means "does not equal."

He's saying that he likes the game, but doesn't like the company, and that doing one isn't necessarily the other.

Must be going blind...I didn't see the /

Stoopid interwebs

Delephont wrote:Must be going blind..

The internet will do that to you. For various reasons.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Sorry that this is off topic, but how do you un-ignore people? I accidentally ignored Sarpedon in another thread and I'm getting sick of hitting "show this post" every time he comes up in a thread, haha.

Ouch, that hurts man!!

Seriously, I agree with Warspawned..... Best thing you could have done

This is just my opinion , i see a lot of members of Dakka and certain other forums are enraged about the price rises in GW (RECENTLY) , I can see where you are all coming from but to me if you enjoy the hobby enough then you would be willing to pay the raised prices ? i certainly am and am a loyal GW customer. Also i feel that the price raise in certain models that will be made in finecast instead of metal is fair , yes finecast may cost less to produce but i feel that the models will save a lot of time being made and will actually stay together without pinning e.ge Ghazskull Tharaka , or Ork big mek with shokk attack gun.

However i totally disagree with them disallowing shipping to certain places as i feel that this can exclude many from the hobby , i think that this is a very big slip up by GW. As people say the customer is always right , Correct ? Let me hear what you think.

~UnDeAd~

If you go to your profile page
scroll down and next to the list of ignored bods it says remove.
click on remove et Violas

hth


Hi Undead
I enjoy the hobby
But take the argument of paying for the game you enjoy to an extreme, would you still be prepared to pay £400 for a tactical squad of marines?
if not at what point would you stop? In all likelihood there will be a cut of point for you.

Some of us have already decided that point has been reached

I like my photography, but can't afford to buy the latest kit when it comes out. If I wait 18 months the price usually quite a bit. Same with my Xbox games. I wait 6 months to a year and they come down in price. GW just keeps sticking them up.

Wolfstan
This is spot on and disproves the "but it is Capitalism and GWs needs to make a profit so they have to put the price up" argument. As if price hikes are the only way to run a business and make a profit.

And for anyone who thinks it is a niche market:
Definition of a niche market=place to buy and sell recesses in walls.

Having given the whole GW thing some serious thought (and no, I'm not going back )

I wonder if people would be that bothered by the recent statements by GW, if they knew that there wasn't a threat of their armies being made partially redundant each time they revise their rules.

The rumour is out that WH40K 6th edition is due to come out next year....or somthing like that! So, all the armies released either during or before 5th edition are going to be at threat. No doubt there will be the usual Codex updates as well, and the cycle continues....given how much GW expects its customers to invest, no only in money terms, but also in time (building and painting) I think this is might be where the problem with GW strategy lies.

I have a completed IG army, but I can't help but wonder what will become of them in 6th edition....will that be the point where , ultimately, GW forces me to make a choice....either re-invest in GW products or quit playing the game altogether.....

What do you guys think? would it make any difference if GW made their rules updates a true update, rather than a clean sheet re-write? Would you feel better with some guarantee that they as a company would protect your investment in them, even though they encourage you to continue investing?

@ Chibi Bodge-Battle , I totally agree with what you are saying about having a cut off point for your spending , everyones is different. Thats why at the start of my post i said it was my opinion for me the hobby is more than just a game i love every element of it and yeah i probably would pay stupid amounts for certain squads that i knew wern't worth it , I would probably stop at the point where i had only enough to fund my needs for the game. Do you see where i am coming from ? And i think that everyone blowing up at GW to me seems strange because although we have a great love for the hobby we are not willing to pay a little extra for in my eyes better quality and less hassle moddels.

Also just reading what Delephont said i would feel a lot happier if GW were to protect our investments in them , however i still feel that i couldent give up the hobby due to the fact of new codex releases and having to change a couple squads for new ones , after all its not like were changing our entire armies is it ?

Thanks for your opinion

~UnDeAd~

Have mentioned the inbuilt obsolescene elsewhere and is a factor in why I have given up on GW

It is too late for such a guarantee as I won't go back now.

IMHO, it'd be a lot better if GW didn't just clean-wipe and re-start the ruleset, 8th ed. WHFB did that and while it worked out, it might not for 6th ed. 40k.

Sure, GW encourages buying new models and new books. But sometimes I feel like they're just changing things for the sake of changing.

And I swear... 6th ed. should NOT happen until Tau, Necrons and Eldar get an update. C'est la vie I suppose.

Hi Undead
just typed a considered response and pressed something that made the page disappear.
Basically I have no desire to see other people's enjoyment ruined by GW going belly up
Long term I feel GW's business plan is detrimental to the hobby you love and people telling them now that they need change at the top is necessary.

Sorry that is but a pale shadow of what I typed

~UnDeAd~ wrote:This is just my opinion , i see a lot of members of Dakka and certain other forums are enraged about the price rises in GW (RECENTLY) , I can see where you are all coming from but to me if you enjoy the hobby enough then you would be willing to pay the raised prices ? i certainly am and am a loyal GW customer. Also i feel that the price raise in certain models that will be made in finecast instead of metal is fair , yes finecast may cost less to produce but i feel that the models will save a lot of time being made and will actually stay together without pinning e.ge Ghazskull Tharaka , or Ork big mek with shokk attack gun.

However i totally disagree with them disallowing shipping to certain places as i feel that this can exclude many from the hobby , i think that this is a very big slip up by GW. As people say the customer is always right , Correct ? Let me hear what you think.

~UnDeAd~

As Warren put it on Beasts of War , its nothing new for them to raise prices and at the same time to have the cry of the community saying "I'M QUITTING" , and then a few months pass and life resumes as normal - but at what point do we, as the community actually say "ENOUGH!"

I mean $42 CAD for 3x tyranid warriors was ridiculous , now its going up to $50 ... Back when it was $42 I would buy various body parts off ebay and collected 3x warriors doing it that way and it cost me about $25... and in the end I still think $25 for THREE plastic miniatures about 2 inches tall each is ridiculous.

Also I believe retailers cant sell overseas anymore (ie Weyland can't ship to anybody in North America, Australia, etc).

I bought my last box of 5x Grey Knights this last saturday... my grey knights list is now about 2300 points with all of my models - I'm done. I now have three full armies (Necrons, Tyranids, and Grey Knights). I was going to start up Imperial Guard this year, but it looks like it would eat into my vacation fund too much so screw that.

Cryage wrote:I was going to start up Imperial Guard this year, but it looks like it would eat into my vacation fund too much so screw that.

Here's the thing - take GW out of 40k!

Wargames factory has an awesome sprue of DKoK-esque models that are perfect for 40k. The deals you can get with them are pretty decent - $118 for 127 miniatures? That's a steal!

Then it's just going and finding some cheap 28mm sci-fi tanks, or even WWII models that you alter a bit. I'm actually tempted to try this myself.

That's what I'm doing with my IG. There won't be a single GW part in the entire army.

I'm probably the only person on this site that actually likes GW. I have no problem with their prices. Nobody forces me to buy their stuff. Only average I probably spend about $200 on models per year, which works out about 3 bucks a week. I probably spend more on fly swatters than models.

This may sound strange, but in recent years, GW price rises were probably the best thing that happened to me. It made me improvise and increase my enjoyment of the hobby.

For example, why buy terrain why you can make your own. Why buy modelling sand when you can hop down to the beach and get a ton of the stuff. Why keep old models that were picking up dust in the attic when you can sell them and buy new ones.

Keep your loose change and put it in a piggy bank or tin. After a few months you can buy a regiment no probs.
Why buy White dwarf when there is a ton of articles on sites like dakka. Why buy GW products when there are dozens of other firms making good, if not better stuff.
etc etc.

I don't want to upset people on this site, but please

STOP ******* WHINING about GW! use a bit of imagination. As it had been pointed out by others, they are not the hobby. Rant over. sorry for any offence caused.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I'm probably the only person on this site that actually likes GW. I have no problem with their prices. Nobody forces me to buy their stuff. Only average I probably spend about $200 on models per year, which works out about 3 bucks a week. I probably spend more on fly swatters than models.

This may sound strange, but in recent years, GW price rises were probably the best thing that happened to me. It made me improvise and increase my enjoyment of the hobby.

For example, why buy terrain why you can make your own. Why buy modelling sand when you can hop down to the beach and get a ton of the stuff. Why keep old models that were picking up dust in the attic when you can sell them and buy new ones.

Keep your loose change and put it in a piggy bank or tin. After a few months you can buy a regiment no probs.
Why buy White dwarf when there is a ton of articles on sites like dakka. Why buy GW products when there are dozens of other firms making good, if not better stuff.
etc etc.

I don't want to upset people on this site, but please

STOP ******* WHINING about GW! use a bit of imagination. As it had been pointed out by others, they are not the hobby. Rant over. sorry for any offence caused.

Your not the only person that feels this way , i am totally the same way and also if i have upset anyone so far that is not what i want to achieve i am merely stating my opinion and how i feel about GW

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I'm probably the only person on this site that actually likes GW. I have no problem with their prices. Nobody forces me to buy their stuff. Only average I probably spend about $200 on models per year, which works out about 3 bucks a week. I probably spend more on fly swatters than models.

This may sound strange, but in recent years, GW price rises were probably the best thing that happened to me. It made me improvise and increase my enjoyment of the hobby.

For example, why buy terrain why you can make your own. Why buy modelling sand when you can hop down to the beach and get a ton of the stuff. Why keep old models that were picking up dust in the attic when you can sell them and buy new ones.

Keep your loose change and put it in a piggy bank or tin. After a few months you can buy a regiment no probs.
Why buy White dwarf when there is a ton of articles on sites like dakka. Why buy GW products when there are dozens of other firms making good, if not better stuff.
etc etc.

I don't want to upset people on this site, but please

STOP ******* WHINING about GW! use a bit of imagination. As it had been pointed out by others, they are not the hobby. Rant over. sorry for any offence caused.

You're missing the point. Sure, people are upset about GW's prices.

How about GW's embargo on the southern hemisphere? How about the cheaper to produce, yet more expensive to buy 'Finecost'? What about their new 'marketing strategy' in which they no longer reveal any new releases until a week before the actual release?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Been under a rock the past week and a half?

Was switching to a cheaper material to save on production costs yet raising the prices not enough for you?
Was banning sales to the southern hemisphere except by southern hemisphere retailers not a big enough thing to notice?
Was an up-to 25% price rise on books and plastic kits something that skipped by?
Was a doubling-down on secrecy and preview information something you didn't notice?
Was reorganising WD subscriptions to arrive a week after they come out in stores to vague?

Let's add the following;

Get into an Army, like Tyranids, only to have the models you paid for WEAKENED and NERFED by a FAQ?
Get into an Army, like Deamons/Tyrnaids/Space Wolves only to not have models available to you, like, ever, even years after a release?
Have an army that has a codex with nearly decades old rules from TWO EDITIONS ago?
Have updated rules come out for your army only years after the fact?
Have rules written so vague that you have no clue whether you can use your $200 dollar unit one way one game or another way another game?
Have basic rules written so sloppily and vague that you can play 20 different strangers and come across 500 different rules interpretations?
Be insulted by a company that repackages regular items, like pva glue and kneadetitie, and sells them to your kids like they are top of the line at top of the line prices?
Get into a company selling a war game whose mind is stuck in the 80's?
Have your subscription to WhiteDwarf insult you by costing too much for essentially a monthly catalog?
Got rid of their gaming forum years ago?
Got rid of their bitz service?
etc etc etc etc etc...

I could go on forever. My point is, companies like Privateer Press, Corvus Belli, Mantic, etc... violate almost NONE of these issues. They know how to treat their customers as HOBBYISTS first, and WALLETS second.

Read a Privateer Press rule book. It explains the difference between the word FURY in all caps and the word fury in lower case when you come across either in the rule. The fact that a rule that has a "NEVER" clause always beats out a rule with an "ALWAYS" clause unless the rule states plainly that it counters a specific rule that has "NEVER" in it. There simply is little to no confusion with other companies rules because their authors know how to read, write and edit in English, unlike GW, who seem to not be able to write at a 4th grade reading level.

GW hate exists because quite frankly, if you aren't a 17 year old getting into the hobby for two years before dropping out (which is their prime target demographic, short term gaming teenagers with parents who buy their toys for them) then GW essentially hates you.

Log onto the GW forums. Send a GW developer email/mail and talk with them. Wait, you can't because commoners aren't allowed in thier self built elitist ivory tower. You sure can talk to, and start meaningful dialogue with the developers of just about any other war gaming company out there.

Stop going to McDonalds when there are 15 other eateries around you serving top quality steak for less than their cheese burger.

I am only 17 , and no i havent just got into the hobby for 2 years , i have been purchasing and playing with warhammer 40k from GW since i was 8 and i believe i will continue to do so untill i am unable to , not every 17 year old has things bought for them , i know values. I work hard for the money i earn and spend on GW just as much as any of you.

~UnDeAd~ wrote:I am only 17 , and no i havent just got into the hobby for 2 years , i have been purchasing and playing with warhammer 40k from GW since i was 8 and i believe i will continue to do so untill i am unable to , not every 17 year old has things bought for them , i know values. I work hard for the money i earn and spend on GW just as much as any of you.

But that's the thing. You're 17. Hell, I'm only two years older than you and I'm feeling the squeeze thanks to college.

Just wait until you've got student loans to pay back. A house to worry over. Insurance to pay. I'm not at that point yet, but I'm sure a lot of Dakkites are older than you and I, and have much more to worry about.

At that point, miniature wargames becomes a way for them to let off steam and just have fun. They get to ignore the whole 'being an adult' thing, and push little plastic soldiers, lovingly painted, across imagined wartorn battlefields.

Yes , i see where you are coming from , i do not go to college at the moment i have a job working as a mechanic , yes it dosen't pay great but i learn to manage my money thats the reason that i can see why older members are angry having to pay more for models amongst Tax and bills for houses etc but also no one is forcing them into the hobby to spend more money on it , its an expensive hobby everyone knows that and still many put up with the prices and enjoy it.

~UnDeAd~

~UnDeAd~ wrote:I am only 17 , and no i havent just got into the hobby for 2 years , i have been purchasing and playing with warhammer 40k from GW since i was 8 and i believe i will continue to do so untill i am unable to , not every 17 year old has things bought for them , i know values. I work hard for the money i earn and spend on GW just as much as any of you.

That's the point. You are exactly who GW markets it's crap for.

In a few years when you are working on securing your future, going to college, dealing with a girlfriend, moving out to a more expensive place, paying insurance and car payments, putting money away in your 401k, buying your own food, just being an adult, you may not spend as much on 40k as you do now.

And when you move on, someone else will be 17 to fill your shoes.

infinite_array wrote:

~UnDeAd~ wrote:I am only 17 , and no i havent just got into the hobby for 2 years , i have been purchasing and playing with warhammer 40k from GW since i was 8 and i believe i will continue to do so untill i am unable to , not every 17 year old has things bought for them , i know values. I work hard for the money i earn and spend on GW just as much as any of you.

But that's the thing. You're 17. Hell, I'm only two years older than you and I'm feeling the squeeze thanks to college.

Just wait until you've got student loans to pay back. A house to worry over. Insurance to pay. I'm not at that point yet, but I'm sure a lot of Dakkites are older than you and I, and have much more to worry about.

At that point, miniature wargames becomes a way for them to let off steam and just have fun. They get to ignore the whole 'being an adult' thing, and push little plastic soldiers, lovingly painted, across imagined wartorn battlefields.

Im 19 aslo and iv really got to reconsider my wargaming spending, especially with GW. Now I dont have a student load to pay back but the £260 I got each month wasnt just spent on gaming(wish it was though) after paying everything off(travel costs and rent to parents) I had roughly £70 to myself which doesnt go far when you have games for xbox/Pc you want aswell.

infinite_array wrote:'Finecost'

This should absolutely stick.

I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Delephont wrote:I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Agreed , Smart decision

Delephont wrote:I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Yup more than agree!

I don't think that we should be arguing at all , after all we all here for the same reason Warhammer fantasy games etc... it's supposed to be fun

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I'm probably the only person on this site that actually likes GW. I have no problem with their prices. Nobody forces me to buy their stuff. Only average I probably spend about $200 on models per year, which works out about 3 bucks a week. I probably spend more on fly swatters than models.

This may sound strange, but in recent years, GW price rises were probably the best thing that happened to me. It made me improvise and increase my enjoyment of the hobby.

For example, why buy terrain why you can make your own. Why buy modelling sand when you can hop down to the beach and get a ton of the stuff. Why keep old models that were picking up dust in the attic when you can sell them and buy new ones.

Keep your loose change and put it in a piggy bank or tin. After a few months you can buy a regiment no probs.
Why buy White dwarf when there is a ton of articles on sites like dakka. Why buy GW products when there are dozens of other firms making good, if not better stuff.
etc etc.

I don't want to upset people on this site, but please

STOP ******* WHINING about GW! use a bit of imagination. As it had been pointed out by others, they are not the hobby. Rant over. sorry for any offence caused.

Every time you apologise for GW they lose a customer. Keep apologising, I'll wait.

Table top minature wargaming IS fun!

When Mantic Games replaced thier metal undead cavalry with resin , they doubled up on minatures because the resin was half the price of the white metal.

TEN fine detailed resin undead cavalry for £25.

There are lots of companies that listen to thier customers and provide products thier customers want.
These companies cater for specific demoghraphics ,they cater for specific groups of gamers and /or collectors.

GW plc are listening to the customers that like what GWplc wants.
GW plcs target demoghraphic is shrinking year on year...

Delephont wrote:I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Well said, Delephont. There is no need for people to hate each other because of their various attitudes towards GW.

I will say that in the six years I have been reading DakkaDakka I have seen a wave of "I hate GW" every time they push a big price increase, C&D a fan site, or make some other kind of bad PR move.

Never have I seen the sheer quantity and bandwidth of complaints as I have in the past fortnight. I think this is partly because DakkaDakka has grown such a lot, but also because GW have achieved a perfect storm of bad PR with a series of controversial moves. They also released the bad news over several days, instead of all at one go.

If people want to hate GW, then is their god given right. I will not think any less of them because of it. But with all due respect to other posters, everybody has bills to pay. Heck I'm up to my neck trying to pay road tax, VAT, national insurance, rent, gas, water, electricity, pet food, brand new underwear etc etc
But I still get by in the hobby. Mantic make good stuff. Flames of war is a terrific game etc etc. I was involved in the hobby long before GW appeared on the scene, so I've learned to get by. All i'm saying is use a bit imagination.

Infinity array makes some good points, but the southern hemisphere will adapt and survive. They'll find a way round the embargo. Even if I have to get a boat and row to New Zealand with a bunch of cheap miniatures, they will get round this!

With respect it seems like some people are not facing up to the possible consequences.

You may be correct DIKNT, and chaps down under might find a way around the embargo. One route is to spend the AUSD on something else.

That may not matter to GW. But as I said earlier, there is a scenario where long term GW will go belly up. No amount of people saying all is well in the GW garden obscures the fact that, medium to long term, decisions GW are making does not make for sustainable business practice imho.

All things being equal, an annual price hike and cost cutting to provide the shareholders with a dividend is a poor strategy.

People are already using their imaginations by finding other games and alternative models to use. That surely is not good for GW

Wow, I leave this morning the thread one its first page and return on the 4th.

So there seems to be opinions on both sides, but, despite turning 18 just recently, GW is already turning too rich for my blood (and this is before I start piling up most of my expenses), so while I love the hobby to death, I'll be buying less, gaming in friendly matches with my college buds just as much, but buying less.

The prices here are huge (and our tax rate is enormous where I live, so at one point I have to ask myself if the 80 gunship is worth 80 bucks).

You know, I think we're seeing a general cool-off on Dakka and the internet in general.

Most people have realized that, by now, GW will only listen to our wallets.

DINKT, I do admire your standing by GW. I picture you as the dutiful midshipmen, saluting your captain even as the ship sinks. Don't get me wrong, either - I love GW's IP. I will continue to buy Black Library novels. I'm looking into picking up a bit of Forgeworld over the summer. I still need a couple of models to finish a decent Salamanders list.

But you have to realize, if the Aussies and the others do manage a way around GW's new marketing strategy, then GW still loses money. And what happens in 2-3 years, when GW continues their annual price rise? What happens when a Tactical squad is 30 pounds a box?

Anyway, I think this'll be my last post on the subject. Gentlemen, ladies, enjoy your hobby. I know I'll be enjoying mine.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Infinity array makes some good points, but the southern hemisphere will adapt and survive. They'll find a way round the embargo. Even if I have to get a boat and row to New Zealand with a bunch of cheap miniatures, they will get round this!

see this is my problem. People shouldnt HAVE to.

Delephont wrote:I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Can we make a third camp? The "I want to come back to GW because I love the universe, the armies, the models and I used to love the company, but they keep making such bad decisions that they're driving me away" camp. That's where I belong; and many others as well. If they listened to us, fixed what we all have such a problem with (hell, if they just decided NOT to go ahead with this current move of the past week and not jack up the prices of old models, just charging more for new ones), I'd be back to saying how awesome they are. I think the newer models do deserve to charge a bit more (not a lot) because a LOT more effort is put into making them beautiful. Example, the new Savage Orcs are amazing, and I'm okay with paying $29 for ten of them. I'm not okay with paying $29 for ten basic orcs, as they are old models and shouldn't have been bumped up by over 50% markup. Glad I only run 40 in an army and found 2 boxes of 19 for a total of $70 last week

Personal thoughts on this, tell me how good this sounds and if you guys would be okay with something along these lines for prices (this is my price recommendation that I feel would be MORE than fair, and would probably make a lot of people happy:

Characters on 20-25mm bases: $15
Characters on 40-50mm bases (or cavalry bases): $20
Unit upgrade models (Telion, Lemartes, Apothecaries, etc) $12
Elitist units of 10 (including space marines, greatswords, various guard from fantasy, black orcs, genestealers, etc): $35
Horde units of 20 that are 6+ ppm (empire troops, orcs, orks, scouts, gargoyles, IG infantry, etc): $35
Horde units of 20 that are <6 ppm (goblins, clanrats/slaves, skinks, gaunts): $30
Cavalry units of 5: $25
Units on 40mm bases of 3: $35
of 5: $50 (slight discount)
Models on 50mm bases: $40
Chariot based models: $15-20 each
Models on larger than 50mm bases (giants, stegadons, arachnarok, Hellpit, etc): $45-50
Small Transport Tanks (Rhino, Wave Serpent, Raider, Devilfish, chimera, etc): $30
Small gunning tanks (Predators, Vindicators, Leman Russes, Fire Prisms, Falcons, Ravagers, Venoms, etc): $40
Large Transport Tanks/assault vehicles (Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc): $50

Obviously there are models that aren't fully covered here, like razorbacks and such, but this is a general idea for model prices that I feel would be completely fair. Sure, some of the prices are a bit more expensive than they are now, but most are a lot more reasonable and players would be paying a little less per unit, but nothing outrageous to rip a hole in GW's pocket. This is just my thought. Comments on price suggestions welcome

What about a fourth camp, the "GW is a corrupt and morally bankrupt company that shows nothing but contempt for its customer base and therefore everyone should be warned to stay well clear of them" camp.

But there is good in GW, HBMC: I can feel it. If they let go of their hate, I know they can be turned

HMBC, I agree with you, also Mr.Timetowaste85, What units of IG come 20-strong in a box? I remember tyranids came in 32 back in the day, but now... I think 12 is the official highest number of anything from GW (fine, 15, counting rippers or scarabs if youre from the necron side) 33 USD for zerkers, 25 USD for gaunts and 35USD for necron warriors. average... 31 USD... about 37 CAD. Overall, not a bad price, but then nobody fields just 12 gaunts... I mean, I remember when it was $32 CAD for a box of 32 gaunts, 16 of each. not this extortionate $30 cad for a piddly 12 gaunts. I also remember having the parts to assemble three ripper bases too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ha... haha .....ha misread a part of your post there..

the only problem is that unit upgrades are also characters. Other than that, your pricing scheme seems fairly solid...

The only issue comes out to be as the quality improves. The new dark eldar.... wow... THOSE are quality, the vanilla space marines, while okay, are not phenomenal. And the tyranid gaunts have not changed since 3rd edition... so i think there are a few other considerations to be made.. anyway, i actually need to make like Mr. Lee and jet, as I am late.

I was just making recommendations for what I feel would be a great setup instead. From what I understand, Cadians and Catachans used to come 20 to a box. I don't play IG (hate them, personally) but I know from other posts that they used to be bigger boxes for a cheaper amount

I forgot about swarm bases: 2 bases and the parts to make them for $10 seems fair to me: 5 bucks a base for swarms

Just my personal thoughts. Maybe if enough people agreed with me, I'd send a mailed suggestion to GW about those of us who would want to get back in if prices were reasonably adjusted.

H.B.M.C. wrote:What about a fourth camp, the "GW is a corrupt and morally bankrupt company that shows nothing but contempt for its customer base and therefore everyone should be warned to stay well clear of them" camp.

+1 to this

Oh, another thing... being Canadian our dollar has been almost on par with the USD for quite awhile now... and I'm spending $7 more on a box of grey knights... WHATS UP WITH THAT! lol

Cryage wrote:WHATS UP WITH THAT! lol

Greed.

Over a period of around 4 years Wizards of the Coast increased the price of Star Wars Miniatures by 50%. There was some tutting on the forums but I never read any rants against them like I've been reading recently about Games Workshop - and WOTC are not exactly a well loved company, they too instigated legal action against fan websites.

Only time will tell for GW if they have made the right decision. I don't believe any of us here really have the facts, and by that I mean the market reseach and the full financial breakdown behind GWs recent decisions.

I dont hate GW.

When I saw the announcment about the embargo and realised that I would be paying essentialy double, I had this kind of sinking feeling. Personaly I can still afford GW at Australian RRP and I even buy from my local GW occasionaly to help support it.

But this news kind of sucked all the joy out of 40k for me. I suddenly dont have any enthusiasm for new projects, list building, theory hammering, conversions etc.

So Im going to finish of my D.eldar and thats it, I wont be buying any more minatures. Ill still play with my Tau/D.eldar in my gaming group when I get the chance but thats it.


On the other hand Im now discovering the Joy that is Infinity. Its kind of a liberating feeling to play a non GW war game. Ill be buying two starter sets and introducing as many people in my area as i can to it. Feels like fun to me

Ugavine wrote:Over a period of around 4 years Wizards of the Coast increased the price of Star Wars Miniatures by 50%. There was some tutting on the forums but I never read any rants against them like I've been reading recently about Games Workshop - and WOTC are not exactly a well loved company, they too instigated legal action against fan websites.

Only time will tell for GW if they have made the right decision. I don't believe any of us here really have the facts, and by that I mean the market reseach and the full financial breakdown behind GWs recent decisions.

Luckily, I actually have the financial data right here.



As you can see, yacht sales have their first spike in April. In order to buy a second yacht by the September high point in order to keep up with the Rockefellers, they need to increase the prices by roughly the amounts announced last week.

What?
I can't see a January sail!!

~UnDeAd~ wrote:I don't think that we should be arguing at all , after all we all here for the same reason Warhammer fantasy games etc... it's supposed to be fun

No, we are all here for the same war gaming hobby. GW is NOT "a" or "the" hobby. Warhammer is just one small piece of war gaming.

That's like saying Nintendo is the video game hobby, and if you don't play Nintendo games, you aren't in the video game hobby.

H.B.M.C. wrote:What about a fourth camp, the "GW is a corrupt and morally bankrupt company that shows nothing but contempt for its customer base and therefore everyone should be warned to stay well clear of them" camp.

Agreed. Massively.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:What?
I can't see a January sail!!

timetowaste85 wrote:
Can we make a third camp? The "I want to come back to GW because I love the universe, the armies, the models and I used to love the company, but they keep making such bad decisions that they're driving me away" camp. That's where I belong; and many others as well.

I'm part of this camp, it describes my feelings about this perfectly. Now I plan to go to Flames of War. From what I read, Battlefront has better support and better rules than what GW offers, and it costs less to get a full army going.

I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

Redbeard wrote:I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

There's as much point in using a trip to the cinema as an example as going on about getting wrecked at the weekend. Your comparison is way off. You might as well include the pizza that I scoffed at the weekend, or the meal out.

Redbeard wrote:I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

My only issue is while I understand it's worth it, and I get it happens everywhere, the problem is that at one point I just don't have the budget to keep up with the wargame that got me into the hobby, and that's the point I look up and think about the other wargames that would cost me less that I could feasibly manage to buy. I'm a student in college, I can't afford the hobby as the prices continue to climb, which is a shame.

Redbeard wrote:I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

Most price increases coincide with a cost increase in either production or distribution. GW somehow predictably has an increase to the tune of 5%-25% annually. You can look at several other companies that somehow put out comparable (or in my opinion, better) quality miniatures for less money, and extrapolate that either GW is terrible at running their business, or they just want to pocket more and more profit out of a business that already has an insane margin. Or both. Probably both.

As for "whining", when a company is doing something stupid, people have two options: complaining, and not buying their products anymore. While some will just complain and continue their purchasing, and others will stop purchasing but be silent, it's really only effective to do both. Stop giving them money, let them know WHY you're not giving them money, and even convince others to join you in this endeavor. This is the only scenario that leads to potential changes in the terrible behavior.

Wolfstan wrote:
There's as much point in using a trip to the cinema as an example as going on about getting wrecked at the weekend. Your comparison is way off. You might as well include the pizza that I scoffed at the weekend, or the meal out.

You miss the point. It's not comparing the cost of going to the movies with the price of GW, it's comparing the cost of the movie ($32!) to the cost of going to a movie a couple of years ago. Prices go up.

Brother Gyoken wrote:
Most price increases coincide with a cost increase in either production or distribution. GW somehow predictably has an increase to the tune of 5%-25% annually.

Have you tracked the prices of metal and plastic over the last few years? Maybe GW's annual price increase is related to the annual increase in their costs.

You can look at several other companies that somehow put out comparable (or in my opinion, better) quality miniatures for less money

I have done this in another thread. I have not seen any company that puts out comparable quality (in my opinion) miniatures for less that GW. In fact, the discussion in those threads was not that GWs prices were unfair at all, given the comparisons with other miniature producers, but rather that they're better at making you want more of them. PP prices aren't any better than GWs, but you can play a game with fewer. Freebooter miniatures aren't any cheaper, but you don't need 100 to make an army. And so on.

and extrapolate that either GW is terrible at running their business, or they just want to pocket more and more profit out of a business that already has an insane margin. Or both. Probably both.

First of all, I think you're being misled about the "insane margin" - that's covered in another thread too. Secondly, GW still being here 30 years later is evidence to me that they're not terrible at running their business. Where is FASA these days? Where is Grenadier? Where is Ral Partha? What happened to TSR? Oh yeah, they went bankrupt and got bought-out.

You can continue your misguided rants, I suppose. But just because prices have risen to more than you can afford doesn't mean that those increases are unfair, or terrible business decisions. Unless you have access to their sales numbers and cost numbers, you're doing little more than pissing in the wind. Everything is up in price, you cannot blame GW for the world economy. And it's smart business to charge enough to make a profit, rather than going bankrupt like so many other gaming and miniature companies have.

Redbeard wrote:


Have you tracked the prices of metal and plastic over the last few years? Maybe GW's annual price increase is related to the annual increase in their costs.

The onus is on you, if you're going to claim it. Please show evidence this is happening.

And you know what? Even if that is the case, explain how Drop Pods, which contain a LOT more plastic material and packaging, cost 12 dollars less than Terminators? Are the drop pods made of special, cheaper plastic? Are they losing money selling drop pods out of the goodness of their heart so they can turn just a tiny profit on the termies?

I have done this in another thread. I have not seen any company that puts out comparable quality (in my opinion) miniatures for less that GW. In fact, the discussion in those threads was not that GWs prices were unfair at all, given the comparisons with other miniature producers, but rather that they're better at making you want more of them. PP prices aren't any better than GWs, but you can play a game with fewer. Freebooter miniatures aren't any cheaper, but you don't need 100 to make an army. And so on.

Here, I went to Chaosorc and randomly clicked an item in the PP section:
http://chaosorc.com/hordes-circle-orboros-circle-orboros-stoneward-woldstalkers-p-12338.html

Find me 5 metal GW minis packaged for 25 or less. Hell, terminators are 5 plastic models for 45 dollars.

http://chaosorc.com/wm-protectorate-heavy-warjack-plastic-boxed-set-p-14044.html

Comparable size to a Dreadnought... almost 10 bucks cheaper.

Hell, go look at the Mantic fantasy stuff. I did yesterday and it blew my mind, the difference in price and quality.

First of all, I think you're being misled about the "insane margin" - that's covered in another thread too. Secondly, GW still being here 30 years later is evidence to me that they're not terrible at running their business. Where is FASA these days? Where is Grenadier? Where is Ral Partha? What happened to TSR? Oh yeah, they went bankrupt and got bought-out.

You could attribute these to bad business decisions. Kind of like the ones GW is making currently. Remember, all those companies had a period of time where people got sick of their crap.

You can continue your misguided rants, I suppose. But just because prices have risen to more than you can afford doesn't mean that those increases are unfair, or terrible business decisions. Unless you have access to their sales numbers and cost numbers, you're doing little more than pissing in the wind. Everything is up in price, you cannot blame GW for the world economy. And it's smart business to charge enough to make a profit, rather than going bankrupt like so many other gaming and miniature companies have.

Similarly, you can't make the assertation that poor wee GW is only trying to eke out the tiniest of profits because you don't have the numbers either. BUT I can look at the world economy and see inflation hasn't been accounting to 5-25% every year for the past 15+ years!

Edit: oh, because I missed it the first time... screw you and your "can't afford it" garbage. I can afford it just fine. I choose to make a moral stand. What a dick thing to say.

Redbeard wrote:It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

I think you've said this several times now and it's actually not true. There are deflationary times (we went through a big one 2H2008-1H2009) when prices generally go down. The core of your argument is that prices must increase in response to fundamental economic relationships, including higher raw material costs and expenses. That's not a truly valid argument in this case as the margin on GW product is HUUUUUGE. Raw material cost could double and GW would still net a very considerable margin. Would it be less margin? Yes, but there is absolutely nothing that entitles a company to always have the same-or-better margin. GW will net what the market is willing to bear.

I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Over time, tabletop wargaming should be cheaper than any one-off recreational activity like movies or eating out x/month IF your purchases remain either constant at a lower expenditure total or trend towards zero.

However, tabletop wargaming in general has a much higher initial cost, or barrier to entry, than eating out or going to the movies. Assault on Black Reach is, I think, about $150 for the 'beginner kit', or about $75 split between two people. That's 4x as much as if those two people wanted to go to the movies or have a nice dinner or a couple drinks out. The significance here I think lies in GW's fundamental strategy of recruiting a new hobbyist and selling a large package initially, with far less focus on retention and repeat business.

At the margin, wargaming still probably looks unattractive relative to other Saturday night out events to most people. That's significant because wargamers appear to generally exist in a lower income bracket, be they trade skill professionals, students, or younger dependents. The 'at the margin' is significant, because often the decision on how to spend their next $30 is what they want to do NOW. Buying a Wych squad will still net them a Wych squad two weeks from NOW, but it must compete with the opportunity cost of not seeing the movie/eating dinner/hitting the bars/going on a date NOW.

GW's financial results would suggest that their prices have indeed shifted further and further to the left on the demand curve, showing that their target demographic is making those decisions 'at the margin'.

The bottom line is that GW know that they have such a tied in customer base they can do what they want with prices. Their response to lost sales is to penalise the remaining customers by covering the loss in revenue by increasing prices.

Wolfstan wrote:The bottom line is that GW know that they have such a tied in customer base they can do what they want with prices. Their response to lost sales is to penalise the remaining customers by covering the loss in revenue by increasing prices.

But this doesn't actually work. Their volume is down more than their prices are up. Cost cutting and efficiency increases are ways to compensate, but generally you hit a threshold on how much you cut and how efficient you can run.

Redbeard wrote:Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

The price increases are actually not the major beef I have with GW.

It's the legal action against fan sites that in no way, shape or form lay any claim to GW IP.
It's the ten year old Codex without an update.
It's the FAQ that takes three years to come out.
It's the nerfing and outright nullification of models that happens with Codex and FAQ releases.
It's the downright piss-poor Codex authoring and editing.
It's the complete lack of support for the long term hobbyist over the short term gaming "tourist".

These are the things that taken together as a whole have caused me to move to Malifaux, Dust Tactics, Firestorm Armada, and other gaming systems. In some ways it's just soured the gaming hobby as a whole for me and caused me to spend more time with motorcycle riding, target shooting and various other hobbies I also enjoy.

The Green Git wrote:The price increases are actually not the major beef I have with GW.

It's the legal action against fan sites that in no way, shape or form lay any claim to GW IP.
It's the ten year old Codex without an update.
It's the FAQ that takes three years to come out.
It's the nerfing and outright nullification of models that happens with Codex and FAQ releases.
It's the downright piss-poor Codex authoring and editing.
It's the complete lack of support for the long term hobbyist over the short term gaming "tourist".

These are the things that taken together as a whole have caused me to move to ...Firestorm Armada, ...

Whoof, you are a glutton for punishment if you think Spartan Games is a significant upgrade over GW in balance, authorship, or updates. That's 'IMO' of course, but I would rate my brief experience with SG as worse than GW.

Brother Gyoken wrote: The onus is on you, if you're going to claim it. Please show evidence this is happening.

There are currently at least six threads involving GW pricing. The link is in one of them. The evidence has been shown. If you want to see it for yourself, you'll need to track down that link on your own, because I can no longer keep the number of threads straight or what has been said in which one.

And you know what? Even if that is the case, explain how Drop Pods, which contain a LOT more plastic material and packaging, cost 12 dollars less than Terminators? Are the drop pods made of special, cheaper plastic? Are they losing money selling drop pods out of the goodness of their heart so they can turn just a tiny profit on the termies?

So you don't understand anything about pricing. Why is a Space Marine Commander priced twice as much as three space marines?

There are static costs to factor in, as well as variable costs. In order to recoup the static costs, they have to price the models based on how many they expect to sell. You expect to sell more marines than marine commanders, because players need more marines than they need commanders, hence the higher unit price on the commander whose fixed cost is higher. My guess is that the fixed costs on the drop pod are lower than on the terminators (remembering that paying the sculptors is a fixed cost).

Here, I went to Chaosorc and randomly clicked an item in the PP section:
http://chaosorc.com/hordes-circle-orboros-circle-orboros-stoneward-woldstalkers-p-12338.html

Find me 5 metal GW minis packaged for 25 or less. Hell, terminators are 5 plastic models for 45 dollars.

I see you randomly found the most boring and bland five models you could. They're pretty comparable to tyranid spore mines.

Speaking of which... hey, ten spore mines for $16. Guess that wasn't a hard challenge to meet.

http://chaosorc.com/wm-protectorate-heavy-warjack-plastic-boxed-set-p-14044.html

Comparable size to a Dreadnought... almost 10 bucks cheaper.

Actually, that's quite a bit smaller than a dreadnought. And here we have three comparably sized models for $45, so that would be what, $20 cheaper on a per-model basis?

Hell, go look at the Mantic fantasy stuff. I did yesterday and it blew my mind, the difference in price and quality.

I've seen the Mantic stuff. It is nicely priced, but I don't think the sculpts are at GWs level yet. That's a matter of opinion obviously. They're certainly acceptable models for filling in the ranks with.

Similarly, you can't make the assertation that poor wee GW is only trying to eke out the tiniest of profits because you don't have the numbers either.

Actually, you can see those numbers. They're in their financial reports. And they're not making a huge profit. They're making a reasonable profit for an international company, but certainly not an unfair one.

BUT I can look at the world economy and see inflation hasn't been accounting to 5-25% every year for the past 15+ years!

Neither has GW. Some specific models have seen an increase. Others saw no increase at all. Some models they went out of their way to make cheaper - killa kans (now in plastic), juggernauts (now in plastic), and so on. But you've got your blinders on and don't see that, you just want to be upset.

Edit: oh, because I missed it the first time... screw you and your "can't afford it" garbage. I can afford it just fine. I choose to make a moral stand. What a dick thing to say.

When half the people in a thread say, "I can't afford it anymore", why is it a dick thing to repeat that they can't afford it? As for your moral stand, I'm glad you've chosen to make it over something as important as toy soldiers, and not over something more trivial like the rising costs of healthcare or clean drinking water. Good for you, very moral.

So everyone loves to speculate, and I like to do a bit myself.

I have experience in running a manufacturing and sales business, so maybe have a little insight to how things work.

First off, Games Workshop and Citadel are companies based in the UK. What this means is that everything they do has extra cost called "Value Added Tax". Even the stuff they ship to the rest of the world has this built in extra cost.

Second to consider, cost of wages, income taxes, and corporate taxes in the UK, can be pretty high compared to other places. Did any of these go up recently in the UK?

Resin is not a terribly expensive material, but neither is white metal. So that is pretty much a wash.

I figure that they are paying people to sculpt some new stuff, as it seems that armies get revamped every so often, and Eldar are in the works. Some of the metal models will be resculpted and then made into regular injection molded plastic. Cost of making an injection molds of this size? Average $10,000 USD each.

I just inspected the boxes from some stuff I have around, and nowhere does it say where the minis are made. It is reasonable from the way the company is structured that most of manufacturing happens in the UK.

If they sent the molds off to China, Mexico, or somewhere else, they could cut the costs way down.

Costs of materials also fluxuate, injection molds are made of highgrade machine steel, minis are made of plastics which are a petroleum based product.

The list goes on and on.

Would it be nicer for the company to speak more openly about what is happening and why, sure.

Advice, buy more stuff second hand off ebay or similiar. There will always be someone who wants to buy the newest models, are will be selling off the old ones to help offset the cost.

Redbeard wrote:There are currently at least six threads involving GW pricing. The link is in one of them. The evidence has been shown. If you want to see it for yourself, you'll need to track down that link on your own, because I can no longer keep the number of threads straight or what has been said in which one.

That's not really how debate works but whatever. I'll assume you're making it up, since your posts seem to be all about assumptions.

So you don't understand anything about pricing. Why is a Space Marine Commander priced twice as much as three space marines?

There are static costs to factor in, as well as variable costs. In order to recoup the static costs, they have to price the models based on how many they expect to sell. You expect to sell more marines than marine commanders, because players need more marines than they need commanders, hence the higher unit price on the commander whose fixed cost is higher. My guess is that the fixed costs on the drop pod are lower than on the terminators (remembering that paying the sculptors is a fixed cost).

The line I quoted was about the rising costs of materials. Whether or not they are going to sell 3 commanders or 3,000 commanders has no bearing on your assertion that the prices are rising because of materials. Also love the condescension of "Ohhh this PLEBE understands NOTHING about pricing." If you want to talk about point value/cost ratio, neccessity to cost ratio, or any of those other things, that is fine. But don't say the prices are rising because of materials, and then become smarmy about a totally different topic when I point out the fallacy of your statement.

I see you randomly found the most boring and bland five models you could. They're pretty comparable to tyranid spore mines.

Speaking of which... hey, ten spore mines for $16. Guess that wasn't a hard challenge to meet.

That really was literally the first models I found when clicking PP and just random sections. Now how about finding models people use?

Actually, that's quite a bit smaller than a dreadnought. And here we have three comparably sized models for $45, so that would be what, $20 cheaper on a per-model basis?

Comparable to what? What are you talking about?

Actually, you can see those numbers. They're in their financial reports. And they're not making a huge profit. They're making a reasonable profit for an international company, but certainly not an unfair one.

Turning a profit and yet they are demanding more money, demanding an extra slice of pie for international orders, and delivering a product inferior to metal in "Finecost." All while other companies are cutting into their market share. Sounds like a brilliant strategy to me.

Neither has GW. Some specific models have seen an increase. Others saw no increase at all. Some models they went out of their way to make cheaper - killa kans (now in plastic), juggernauts (now in plastic), and so on. But you've got your blinders on and don't see that, you just want to be upset.

Another assumption about me! I'll have you know that I've gone through three editions, having nearly my entire army phased into obselecence overnight (Emperor's Children in 3rd), and 3 different armies with this horrid company. I'd say if I "just wanted to be upset" the time for that would have come a long time ago. This is just my final straw. But you just want to be an avid GW apologist (aren't baseless assumptions fun?)

When half the people in a thread say, "I can't afford it anymore", why is it a dick thing to repeat that they can't afford it? As for your moral stand, I'm glad you've chosen to make it over something as important as toy soldiers, and not over something more trivial like the rising costs of healthcare or clean drinking water. Good for you, very moral.

You were replying to a post I made, in detail. Don't tell me you weren't addressing me. You're right about the moral stand though. People can only be upset about one thing. I do absolutely nothing like donate time and money to local and national charities, act as local chairman for another charity, etc. Another assumption! Also I'm glad you basically resorted to the equivalent of "Warhams is srs bzns amirite?" at the end. It really illustrates your mentality even above and beyond the dripping condescension.

Brother Gyoken wrote:You were replying to a post I made, in detail. Don't tell me you weren't addressing me.

I wasn't. I was addressing a post you made in a much larger thread. But don't worry, I've put you on my ignore list, so you won't need to worry about being addressed any further.

Redbeard wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:You were replying to a post I made, in detail. Don't tell me you weren't addressing me.

I wasn't. I was addressing a post you made in a much larger thread. But don't worry, I've put you on my ignore list, so you won't need to worry about being addressed any further.

Edited because the initial response was really too rude. Instead, I'll say "I'll try not to lose any sleep over your cutting and running."

Why are you guys even arguing over this, just agree to disagree....no one can tell you how you should or shouldn't feel about GW, or how to spend your money.

A discussion is one thing, but when it turns nasty, it's time to cut your losses.

Delephont wrote:Why are you guys even arguing over this, just agree to disagree....no one can tell you how you should or shouldn't feel about GW, or how to spend your money.

A discussion is one thing, but when it turns nasty, it's time to cut your losses.

Eh, I just feel compelled to reply when words like "whining" are tossed out about a totally valid complaint.

Brother Gyoken wrote:Eh, I just feel compelled to reply when words like "whining" are tossed out about a totally valid complaint.

I know, comments like that have been flying around a lot because of these issues, and the responses have been just as insulting....I just think it's high time people simply move on. Everything that's ever going to be said about the GW changes has been said, now is just the time to take stock and move on with your hobby.

Plus, it's harldy like GW is gonna lose any sleep over you guys tearing each other apart.....they'll most probably just rummage through the pockets of the dead and dying looking for your wallet (joke )

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:So everyone loves to speculate, and I like to do a bit myself.

I have experience in running a manufacturing and sales business, so maybe have a little insight to how things work.

First off, Games Workshop and Citadel are companies based in the UK. What this means is that everything they do has extra cost called "Value Added Tax". Even the stuff they ship to the rest of the world has this built in extra cost.

.

VAT is claimed back at each stage of the supply chain. Only the final retail customer gets stuck with the bill. If he is outside the EU, he doesn't have to pay VAT.

GW US produces models for the USA and Canada in the USA.

Redbeard wrote:I have done this in another thread. I have not seen any company that puts out comparable quality (in my opinion) miniatures for less that GW.

victrix.
thats all I have to say

and my hate for GW has very little to do with what GW has done recently, its what GW has been doing for the past several years, what they do recently has little impact on me as the stupid [edited by Mod] decisions they make have no effect on someone who long ago realised that having anything to do with GW in any form is a complete waste of time money and effort.

Does anyone remember when GW used to do deals where you bought 3 items and got the cheapest 1 free? What happend to that!

I agree with H.B.M.C. The sooner GW falls the better. Then someone else can pick up the broken company and put it back together in a way that doesn't make people hate them.

Does anyone else think its crazy that GW minitures are "worth" 100 times their weight in silver?

The problem IMO is that there are too many young people on this site. Too many young shavers who weren't around in the 1980s. Believe me, miniature wargaming was in the dark ages. If you wanted miniatures, you had to grow them or forge them yourself! The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

We owe GW a debt. I grant you that in recent times, they have stabbed some loyal customers in the back, but all in all, things could be a lot worse. With imagination, you can make savings and still play the game. Mantic are good. Sand is free at the beach. Buy at mortar and pestal and grind up rocks to make all types of basing materials etc etc

You obviously never made a pilgrimage to the Minifigs store in Victoria during the 70s to buy their SF and fantasy figures.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If you wanted miniatures, you had to grow them or forge them yourself! The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

I don't remember vomiting profusely at the first release of real miniatures and the rise of those companies.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

Wait, I'm confused, the context makes it sound like you think it's a good thing, but then you used a nightmarish scenario for the simile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn it pretre, you ninja'd my poor joke.

htj wrote:Damn it pretre, you ninja'd my poor joke.

Nah, it's cool. The point bears emphasis.

Petre, like the 1960s, if you can remember it, you were never there!

as for victoria in the 1970s, I was distracted by Doctor Who.

All I'm saying is that some things are bad, but they could be a lot worse. As GW price rises go, this one's not bad.

In the words of Picard, "The line must be drawn here this far no further!"

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Petre, like the 1960s, if you can remember it, you were never there!

Geeze, how hard is it to keep the R in my name. lol
And no, I was not there in the 60's...

My apologies to Pretre.

My advice to everyone in a nutshell. Keep calm. Breath in, breath out. and shop around for savings and don't buy WD.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Keep calm. Breath in, breath out.

This part cannot be emphasized enough.

I know wargaming is serious business, but people need to learn to deal with change, stress and even positive things in more productive ways. Raging against everything and anything isn't a great way to go through life.

That's a good point. With a little luck, this'll give some of the smaller miniature companies a shot in the arm financially, as people start to diversify there spending habits, moving away from purchasing solely from GW.

It does feel like GW has changed a lot from when I first got into this hobby o' ours, but it makes my sad, rather than angry.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
We owe GW a debt.

*picks myself up from the floor*

No.

htj wrote:That's a good point. With a little luck, this'll give some of the smaller miniature companies a shot in the arm financially, as people start to diversify there spending habits, moving away from purchasing solely from GW.

It does feel like GW has changed a lot from when I first got into this hobby o' ours, but it makes my sad, rather than angry.

True that, when I started, GW was an awesome company (in my eyes), and the local store's red-shirts were some great guys who would recommend not buying too much at once if it meant we wouldn't get around to painting it all, and who really got the fluff. They left the company, and the replacements are great guys too, but push you towards a purchase much more.

EDIT: Also, the way people diversify could also mean more wargamers in general, as people who are initially interested in non-GW wargames but were turned off by lack of players see more variety.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

Cheap, drunk, attention-whoring, stupid, and shallow?

I know, I know, two other jokes about this already, but it needs to be emphasized.

One thing I should note, I can build a competitive Warmachine army for around $200. That's a lot less than most 40K armies. After all, if you want to be competitive in 40K right now what do you use? Vehicles. And how much do those cost? A lot. As someone who likes to make good lists and play at events, I prefer to not have to spend many times more than someone who is just making a casual army. I've tallied up the costs, and a lot of 40K armies cost over $600, and that's on a discount. Sorry, but I see no reason to spend that much on this. I cannot find a functional GW army that I can afford. With PP I can, and that's why I'm going that route.

My 25 point Cryx army cost me around $130 and that is including a rule book, templates and dice. The current mech environment with 40k really hurts the wallet (especially when I bought 2 chaos land raiders last year). From what I gather, I'll need to make fewer purchases with Warmachine as changing up a list is as simple as switching warcasters (which is a $9-23AUD purchase at maelstrom) as opposed to buying bucket loads vindicators or razorbacks for a 40k list.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The problem IMO is that there are too many young people on this site. Too many young shavers who weren't around in the 1980s. Believe me, miniature wargaming was in the dark ages. If you wanted miniatures, you had to grow them or forge them yourself! ..

We owe GW a debt.

I was there, I got my first lead fix with Ral Partha and Grenider, GW didn't get me till well after Battletech, As far as debts go, they've gotten their pound of flesh and more. These days the only of theirs I feel like spending money on is their Black Library stuff where they have way to much competition to pull the stunts they do in the minis market.

On other notes.. just because some of GW's newer buisness's practices are done elsewhere in other industries, (though I will say I have never heard of any other company insisting on a shopping cart ban, or trying to use copyright to restrict the use of product shots ) does not mean we have to like or approve of those practices.

But I don't much care, I'm way to happy with Privateer right now..

Mike Noble wrote:One thing I should note, I can build a competitive Warmachine army for around $200. That's a lot less than most 40K armies

This is a valid point. The buy-in is much lower in WM although this is somewhat offset by the fast pace of change in WM.

Personally, I find it worse value for money because the amount of models for that spend is so low. It doesn't feel like good value, to me at least.

From the recent BoLS article :

Orks - $548 for 80 infantry and 7 vehicles
Legion - $193 for 26 infantry and 1 vehicle?

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

See, I accepted this analogy until you used Paris...if you said "Avril or Natalie Portman," you'd have my vote

I don't "Owe" GW anything.


Your rose colored glasses are the right tint, though. I'll give you that.


Ral Partha was the company that had the D and D figs. They were exactly like the pictures in the Monster Manual. THOSE games of Yor branched up into Ma and Pa companies and revolved around fun, diversion, and a time where we had groups of players that were moire interested in having fun, not just keeping up with the Jones's and getting the new lickey and chewie brand spanking new shinies.

GW's were an entirly different animal. I specificly remember seeing them, seeing a balls out inovative game system, and saying, " This is MUCH BETTER then D and D. You at least get something other then a !@#ton of books to look at that arn't going to go south every month."

Point being, GW made it a POINT to sell themselves as the Be All, End All in gaming, then turn around and litereally pee all over the gamer base that they made it a point to tell you time and again...

"Games Workshop Group PLC, a London Stock Exchange quoted company which was listed in 1994, has been in business for 30 years. At the core is a niche business – Games Workshop. This business designs, manufactures and markets a hobby based upon collecting, modelling, painting and tabletop gaming with model soldiers (the “Hobby”). The Games Workshop business makes the vast majority of the sales and profits of the Group."

They did this by of all things, first and fore most was with Quality product, relationship with the fan base, and a complete total package in gaming, hobby building, and models.


NOW? Finecost is putting a hat on a pig. The issues run so deep, so vile, that they have completly lost touch with thier gamer fan base, the consumer base, and in reality.

If it were just the prices, people wouldn't have rallied and outright revolted like they have. It is the culmination and pushback that has been long in coming, and it's finally here.

We owe GW an asskicking, not a debt. They were just one of over 6 or 8 hundred game companies, In 94, when they wen't corperate, you can go back and ask Russ what we said was going to happen back in the day. With the advent of second edition, we saw the upscale, then the change from the Rogue Trader days to corperate packaging of 2 fig's as opposed to the whole unit, in the tune of 5 to six models.
We saw the design team, however crude, design a kitbox, that along with thier urging, that "YOU THE PLAYER NEED TO CONVERT TO YOUR SPECIFIC ARMY. HERE'S THE KIT, HAVE FUN."

Till now, where your expected to just fork over hundres of dollars for a "SUPER HEAVY" that can only be used insuch and such a game.

As for talking about Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, and the rest? Ask them what they think. Do they think the game would have blown up as big as it has if they would have pulled all of this crap on the gamer base?

Heres them talking about WHERE THEY CAME FROM-

http://www.viceland.com/int/v16n12/htdocs/steve-jackson-ian-livingstone-283.php?page=1


Keep on making excuses for them, though. It's not like they even care that that they even have a problem.

So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Elector wrote:So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Chainmail, if I remember correctly, was the wargaming precursor to D&D. Gygax and others came up with the game, and a lot of the monsters and spells from Chainmail made their way over into D&D when it was released.

Of course, that was before my time. I was introduced to D&D with 3.5.

Mike Noble wrote:One thing I should note, I can build a competitive Warmachine army for around $200. That's a lot less than most 40K armies. After all, if you want to be competitive in 40K right now what do you use? Vehicles. And how much do those cost? A lot. As someone who likes to make good lists and play at events, I prefer to not have to spend many times more than someone who is just making a casual army. I've tallied up the costs, and a lot of 40K armies cost over $600, and that's on a discount. Sorry, but I see no reason to spend that much on this. I cannot find a functional GW army that I can afford. With PP I can, and that's why I'm going that route.

'Can' being the key word. Their are also a lot of competitive builds that cost a lot more, and not everyone feels like playing with that 200.00 build.

The average Warmachine player in my stores walks in with 400-600 in miniatures in their case, with a lot more at home.

I see your point, though, that for someone on limited funds, PP can be a less expensive game. I just rarely, if ever, see anyone stopping at that point.

mikhaila wrote:The average Warmachine player in my stores walks in with 400-600 in miniatures in their case, with a lot more at home.

o.O;;; Walks in? I'd need a lorry to carry that much...and I've been playing since escalation, I rarely hit the FLGS for gaming night with more than a platoon case, and that's enough for a good 25-35 pt game, 50 if I push it... my entire collection is 4-5 cases, and it's just under 300 figs...

mikhaila wrote:The average Warmachine player in my stores walks in with 400-600 in miniatures in their case, with a lot more at home.

I play four factions, and am a bit of a completionist when it comes to Khador, and I don't think I even own that many Warmahordes models...

EDIT: Just checked my spreadsheet. 555 models total, with 161 of those being Khador. Slightly more than I thought, but still pretty damn impossible to get to the store without a wheel barrow or two.

I suspect mikhalia was talking about value there, gentlemen, not volume.

Redbeard wrote:
I see you randomly found the most boring and bland five models you could. They're pretty comparable to tyranid spore mines.

Speaking of which... hey, ten spore mines for $16. Guess that wasn't a hard challenge to meet.

Actualy spore mines cost $28

Individual GW models are among the most expensive at every price level.

Basic infantry are between £1 and £2.50.
"Character" models and medium sized monsters are about £8 to £15.
Transports are fairly reasonable at about £20.
Big kits (Trygon, Land Raider) are about £35 to £50.

You can find cheaper among Historicals, and cheaper among SF/Fantasy. The larger GW models arguably offer more elaboration and detail to justify their price.

Warmachine is possibly the most expensive and rivals GW, however you don't need as many models to make an army.

A typical 40K army needs fewer cheap models (basic infantry) and more expensive models than a Historical army.

Overall GW games are expensive. It doesn't make them a bad company. There is plenty of alternative choice. Also you can play GW rules with different, cheaper models if you like.

Kilkrazy wrote:Overall GW games are expensive. It doesn't make them a bad company.

No. It's all the other things that make them a bad company.

I guess a lot of the anger comes from loyal fans that feel let down after years of loyalty to their hobby.

I remember when GW was way smaller and made board games like 'Kings and Things' 'Talisman''Car Wars' etc.

Great games that I still own and have in my cupboard. It was just a different company when Ian and Steve were in charge.

The models were more basic and the rules far less streamlined like they are today.

Back then it was run by gamers, it grew and was successful. It made money and listened to its customers.

Now its run by accountants, it more polished, visible to the public and is cost effective. It makes money and listens to the share holders.

It is important to note that GW has been in business for 30 years, not the people running the show today.

I have a huge collection of White Dwarf and the decline in GW that everyone is talking about is evidenced so well in the pages of White Dwarf over the years.

I still go back and read the old White Dwarfs for time to time. The White Dwarf of today is just crap.

As a previous poster mentioned, I remember when the did the buy three models and get the cheapest one free deal.

My favorite promotion was the Army Collector Cards that rewarded you with models when you completed a section and a free codex when complete.

At the end of the day the bottom line is that the only thing that the company heads care about is the interests of the GW share holders.

Its what there paid to do and they are doing there job.

The simple fact is that that while GW has changed over the years on all levels its the IP that is the thing of real value to fans and share holders alike.

Company's come and go but the IP will live on forever.

For all the countless hours of fun with mates over GW products I sincerely say thank you to Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone.

With out them even this post would not exist.

infinite_array wrote:

Elector wrote:So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Chainmail, if I remember correctly, was the wargaming precursor to D&D. Gygax and others came up with the game, and a lot of the monsters and spells from Chainmail made their way over into D&D when it was released.

Of course, that was before my time. I was introduced to D&D with 3.5.

Exactly my point. I was calling him out.

GW advanced the hobby, it came up with some brilliant IP, but it's not "the granddaddy of all miniature wargames".

Elector wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Elector wrote:So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Chainmail, if I remember correctly, was the wargaming precursor to D&D. Gygax and others came up with the game, and a lot of the monsters and spells from Chainmail made their way over into D&D when it was released.

Of course, that was before my time. I was introduced to D&D with 3.5.

Exactly my point. I was calling him out.

GW advanced the hobby, it came up with some brilliant IP, but it's not "the granddaddy of all miniature wargames".

Ah, ok. Gotcha.

Now, I'm a relative noob when it comes to the hobby, but I think I'll attribute that to my age. I do wish, however, that Steve Jackson & Co. would return, or at least people like them. It seems like these guys had a real love for the hobby, and could turn GW back to the 'making games because it's what we love to do' attitude it seems like they used to have.

^Agreed, agreed so much. With something like wargames, the company really should take the "we did it because we really really wanted to do it" approach. When consumers see that they have that attitude, we buy from them, both as support, and because we know we can trust them to not to mess with our game.

It's a shame, I wish I was a bit older so I could have enjoyed the hobby from back then, but I was introduced to 40k in 5th ed, so i can't really compare as much.

Elector wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Elector wrote:So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Chainmail, if I remember correctly, was the wargaming precursor to D&D. Gygax and others came up with the game, and a lot of the monsters and spells from Chainmail made their way over into D&D when it was released.

Of course, that was before my time. I was introduced to D&D with 3.5.

Exactly my point. I was calling him out.

GW advanced the hobby, it came up with some brilliant IP, but it's not "the granddaddy of all miniature wargames".

Of course GW wasn't the first. Warhammer were rules made to use their fantasy and LOTR models in games like what they played with historicals. So was chainmail. Both were attempts to adapt historical wargame rules to fantasy figures. You can easily trace wargames back a long, long ways.

That said, GW absolutely advanced the hobby beyond what it was, and was the gateway for a couple of generations to get into the hobby. They still advance the hobby. And they acted like a wedge, allowing many other companies to open up the hobby further. One thing GW is excellant at is training up ex-GW employees. We now have them scattered all over the place creating new games and miniature companies.

I remember people writing about proto-fantasy-RPG games in Military Modelling in the early 1970s. The rules were adapted from Ancients.

mikhaila wrote:One thing GW is excellant at is training up ex-GW employees. We now have them scattered all over the place creating new games and miniature companies.

Amen to that, it's a good thing those people were "let go", otherwise their talents would go to waste there.

Assuming GW carry on with just WH/40K and LoTR, there isn't much for a designer or writer to do any more.

Really well written piece on the blog below, I think it sums up how a lot of veteran players feel about the current situation:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/games-workshop-are-fun-police.html

Yeah, that's a well-written summary of why people feel anger towards GW.

Thanks for posting the link Pacific

edited for spelling

And yet, people will always play the "Game that killed the hobby".....what a shame.

Delephont wrote:And yet, people will always play the "Game that killed the hobby".....what a shame.

That's actually incorrect. It won't be any of GW's creations that will kill GW's hobby, it will be the company itself, and the decisions the executives make.

Actually, I think both games will improve with GW out of the way - just look at how the community has taken Epic and Bloodbowl and improved upon both systems.

Agreed, I stand corrected.

I dont necessarily have hate for GW, just mass confusion. What theyre doing doesnt make since to me but it doesnt piss me off. I guess i have the advantage of having a fully built army that doesnt need added onto anytime soon and i dont live in the southern hemisphere. If i did Im sure id be pissed

What's up with the "southern hemisphere" part? I was under the impression that independent stockists based in the UK were prevented from selling outside of Europe all-together (including North America), am I correct on this?

Elector wrote:What's up with the "southern hemisphere" part? I was under the impression that independent stockists based in the UK were prevented from selling outside of Europe all-together (including North America), am I correct on this?

You are.

However, in states in the southern hemisphere, stockists like Maelstrom and Wayland were ways of picking up GW product at lower prices, and without having to pay exorbitant shipping prices. We here in the States have sites like the Warstore and MinaitureMarket, and I'm sure Canada has a few sites as well (Miniwargaming?). So it's not so much a problem for the political 'Northern Hemisphere'.