Maybe it wasn't TOO shocking, but to be expected ....
Come on, only 2 sit around and write books instead of crusading. Both influence the IoM of "today" ( M41 ).
Sorry, didn't find the end of Savage Weapons to be that shocking. That accusation had been leveled at the Ultras before, so it fit right in with what some people thought. That was my take at least.
See, I didn't think it was that clear cut...BUT, now that you mention it, and combine it with what Guiliman was originally going to call the CODEX ASTARTES... maybe!
Death By Monkeys wrote:Kan - you mind throwing the "shocking" part up in a spoiler?
I will, but I'm going to do my standard huge spacing thing so any quoting doesn't reveal the spoiler.
To set up the backstory: "Savage Weapons" deals with the Night Lords and Dark Angels. More specifically, it's at the height of the Heresy with Curze burning his way across the outer worlds of the Imperium and Jonson hunting him down.
Now, here's the spoiler from the ending of the story, which ties in nicely (I thought at least) with Graham McNeill's "Rules of Engagement".
Spoiler:
Savage Weapons by Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
(spoken by Lion El'Jonson to one of his retainers)
'No, Cor. The hail comes from Guilliman and our cousins within the Thirteenth Legion. Knowing we have been unable to reach Terra, it seems the Lord of Ultramar wishes us at his side instead.'
Before the warriors could reply, the Lion narrowed his Calibanite eyes. 'Unending Imperial ambition has not bred warriors with the warm hearts of men, but angels with the cold hearts of weapons.'
He rose from his throne, circling the hololithic table, watching the worlds turn about their suns.
'My sons,' he smiled, though it was utterly without warmth. 'It seems Horus is not the only soul to believe he is heir to the empire.'
Maybe it was just me, but the ending of "Savage Weapons" sounded more like
Spoiler:
the Lion's musings, and rather bitter ones at that given his circumstances, than 'hard fact' that Guilliman was up to anything. One thing I am VERY glad about it that this 'settles' the 'question' about the Lion's loyalties!
Alpharius wrote:Maybe it was just me, but the ending of "Savage Weapons" sounded more like
Spoiler:
the Lion's musings, and rather bitter ones at that given his circumstances, than 'hard fact' that Guilliman was up to anything. One thing I am VERY glad about it that this 'settles' the 'question' about the Lion's loyalties!
Alpharius wrote:Maybe it was just me, but the ending of "Savage Weapons" sounded more like
Spoiler:
the Lion's musings, and rather bitter ones at that given his circumstances, than 'hard fact' that Guilliman was up to anything. One thing I am VERY glad about it that this 'settles' the 'question' about the Lion's loyalties!
Spoiler:
Kinda... I've always liked the Lions questionable loyalties, but it still doesn't settle the question, it just seems to state he wasn't on the side of horus/Chaos. But was he fighting for the Emperor, or himself, or Guilliman or what?
Gotta say that out of AoD I was a huge fan of Savage Weapons (cause they are 2/3 favorite legions brawling it up) and the Iron Warriors story which is my 3rd favorite legion and was just an awesome read.
I'm horrible with the story names though and remember Savage Weapons only because it was the last one I read. I too was glad at some of what it revealed.
I didn't find Savage Weapons as amazing as everyone was saying actually, it was good, but I wasn't that amazed despite the revelations there.
Strangely, I didn't enjoy McNiell's or Abnett's stories (for once) and it was the 'new' writers that really shone through for me. The Last Remembrancer, Face of Treachery, Iron Within and Rebirth all stood out to me.
IMHO Forgotten Sons was the worst of the lot, I really don't think I'm a fan of Nick Kymes work sadly...
Savage Weapons is the one AoD i have left. I saved it for last, as ADB usually really delivers. The highlight for me so far, easily, has been The Iron Within. It was a bit unpolished in places, but when it worked (most of the time), it was incredible.
While I think McNeill is talented, both The Last Church (from Tales of Heresy) and Rules of Engagement did nothing for me. Most people really liked them.
I did think that AoD was a very solid step above Tales of Heresy.
Looking forward to Battle of the Fang.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just finished Savage Weapons. I have the same read as Alph. I don't think there is a revelation there. Just a cynical perspective.
I still liked most of the stories quite a bit. Frankly, I don't want revelations simply for revelation's sake. I prefer well-written examinations of lesser seen aspects of the conflict. The smaller revelations, mostly fueled by POV and ruminations, often are more potent in the long run.
When the good guy is actually the bad guy or vice versa...that works ONCE. Much more interesting to see why the bad guy thinks he is good, and why the good guy wonders if he is bad. The former is a trick. The latter is storytelling.
I'm confused by the debate over the revelation in Savage Weapons. Wasn't that same revelation spelled out in much more explicit terms just a few pages into the very first story? I had to go back and read the opener to Rules of Engagement three times and I was still shocked that they'd been allowed to take the series down that road. The fact that the same revelation is discussed in much less certain terms later in another story seems unimportant, even if that story was a vastly better read.
Did people just miss the reveal in Rules of Engagement?
No, it is part of the discussion here, we're just tip-toeing around it for the sake of Spoilers and all that.
But, I still don't see it as a big Revelation - more of the Lion's Opinion of what is happening.
Still, it make the Ultramarines have a slightly darker shade of blue, and if that means the next SM Codex won't boldly proclaim that all Space Marines wish they were Ultramarine Tactical Squad members, that's OK by me!
Interestingly enough, there are a couple of lines early in the Chapter's Due that can be read in a new light given Rules of Engagement. I wonder if McNeill had his short story in mind, at least in concept while he was writing.
There is a problem with that theory, however: namely, everything else we know about the post-heresy era. Between the setting of Savage Weapons and M41 the Ultramarines have done exactly nothing (direct rule of Ultramar aside) to validate the Lion's accusatory musings. This despite the perfect opportunity: Guilliman basically ruled in the period leading up to the Second Founding -- Dorn was mentally shattered, the Lion was missing (as far as we know), and the others were either traitors, not interested in taking on the burden, or already dead. But he did not remain in that authority past the immediate crisis. (Let's not forget, there was not necessarily a vacancy: we don't know exactly what the Golden Throne implies about the Emperor.) Furthermore, the Codex Astartes does not square with the Lion's opinion. If you were power hungry and in a position of numerical superiority over all rivals, why would you voluntarily split your forces? Strikes me as pandering to the same old Ultra-hate. No surprise coming from ADB. He already gave us a taste of this when he had the Aurelian punch Guilliman in the face.
Manchu wrote:There is a problem with that theory, however: namely, everything else we know about the post-heresy era. Between the setting of Savage Weapons and M41 the Ultramarines have done exactly nothing (direct rule of Ultramar aside) to validate the Lion's accusatory musings.
Really? Summoning another Legion to your side isn't validating the Lion's "accusatory musings"?
I mean, if Guilliman had 'requested' the Dark Angels to come to him--then it likely would have been a different story. But 'summoning' an equal is kind of presumptuous and validates what the Lion's saying perfectly for the timeframe.
This despite the perfect opportunity: Guilliman basically ruled in the period leading up to the Second Founding -- Dorn was mentally shattered, the Lion was missing (as far as we know), and the others were either traitors, not interested in taking on the burden, or already dead. But he did not remain in that authority past the immediate crisis. (Let's not forget, there was not necessarily a vacancy: we don't know exactly what the Golden Throne implies about the Emperor.)
And while Guilliman basically ruled, he also pushed the Imperium absurdly close to a second Heresy because things had to be done his way.
Furthermore, the Codex Astartes does not square with the Lion's opinion. If you were power hungry and in a position of numerical superiority over all rivals, why would you voluntarily split your forces?
By that same token, if you were power hungry and in a position of numerical superiority over all rivals, what better way to split your rivals than to pass down a decree forcing them to further split their forces?
Remember that the Codex Astartes came about after the Heresy, and after Jonson had vanished. He has no way of seeing it come about, nor of actually knowing that Guilliman was doing what he felt was "in the best interest of the Empire".
Strikes me as pandering to the same old Ultra-hate. No surprise coming from ADB. He already gave us a taste of this when he had the Aurelian punch Guilliman in the face.
Really? You thought that was "Ultra-hate"?
I kind of thought it was more Word Bearer hate, showing how much of a petulant brat Lorgar was.
Well, stop and consider this: at the end of the Heresy, a few legions still had forces to at least rival the Ultramarines.
Now almost every new Space Marine chapter produced is derived from the Ultramarines, and almost all of them revere Guilliman.
What if he wasn't actually poisoned by Fulgrim at all, but this is rather a master stroke in the Long War. Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes.
Well of course everything looks rosey...History is written by the victors Manchu
Spoiler:
He might not have put a crown on his head but that might have had more to do with his daddy not being dead than from any lack of ambition on his part. Don't get me wrong, I see Gulliman as doing it more for the greater good (much like Caesar) as he sees it. I think the Lion could have been a tempering point on the whole thing too. I was glad to finally have confirmation on the Lion and thought the story played well to it with Kurze telling Johnson exactly how history would view him.
I do find it funny that Gulliman (who didn't even seem to try to reach earth) is touted as the most loyal of sons but the Lion was suspect....I've always seen the Lion as the most loyal of the sons. He's the only one touched by Chaos that never turned. Heck, he lived his childhood years on a deathworld that was a particularly thin point between space and the warp. Sucks he's such a piss poor judge of character according to the Heresy DA novels
"What if he wasn't actually poisoned by Fulgrim at all, but this is rather a master stroke in the Long War. Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes."
Where did this bit of fluff come from? I thought I remembered Gulliman having deathwounds which people swore were slowly healing (though I think that bit was from second edition)
Please, everyone knows ADB has Loyalist Marine Hate!
Have to agree with Manchu - RG and the Ultras held the Imperium together - they didn't take it over, despite what GW and MW would have us think! (Sorry - couldn't resist!)
I see this as more of a 'humanizing' of the "Perfect Primarch" - and it makes him that much more impressive now.
- Guilliman's character is established as practical and efficient; if the Lion needs urgent communications sugar-coated then it's no wonder his boys wear dresses
- Codex Astartes has prevented another Horus Heresy for 10,000 years (imagine if a man like Lugft Huron controlled a legion rather than a chapter); if you think about the crisis, Dorn was teetering on the edge of corruption and it was he rather than Guilliman who threatened a second Heresy
- math time: let's say I have a hundred thousand guys and you have ten thousand; I insist we split our forces into groups of one thousand; so now we each have one thousand; I don't see how this puts you at a disadvantage but I clearly see how this disadvantages me
- as noted above Codex Astartes was objectively in the best interests of the Imperium; the Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion much less the Legion-level of organization more generally is a testament against his alleged brilliance
- true, Lorgar came across as a brat; even so, Guilliman got punched in the face and I call that fanservice (haterservice?) -- imagine a novel in which Mat Ward got punched in the face; same thing
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Hulksmash: Sanguinius is another Primarch touched by Chaos (more literally than the Lion; approaching the level of Magnus) and he is the paragon of filial love, whereas the Lion's reputation has always been shadowy.
The fluff you're thinking of (Guilliman's poisoned neck wound from Daemon-Fulgrim slowly healing) is in McNeill's first Ultra-novel but I don't know if it's original to McNeill.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote:Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes.
But this is not the case -- although almost all Chapters descend from the Ultras and revere Guilliman as an ancestor, they do not (seem to) have any formal relationship among them that would instantly "re-legion-ize" the Ultramarines. This conspiracy theory is one of the main pillars of Ultra-hate mythology.
- Guilliman's character is established as practical and efficient; if the Lion needs urgent communications sugar-coated then it's no wonder his boys wear dresses
- Codex Astartes has prevented another Horus Heresy for 10,000 years (imagine if a man like Lugft Huron controlled a legion rather than a chapter); if you think about the crisis, Dorn was teetering on the edge of corruption and it was he rather than Guilliman who threatened a second Heresy
- math time: let's say I have a hundred thousand guys and you have ten thousand; I insist we split our forces into groups of one thousand; so now we each have one thousand; I don't see how this puts you at a disadvantage but I clearly see how this disadvantages me
Let's say you have a hundred thousand guys and I have ten thousand. You insist that we split our forces into groups of one thousand.
What guarantee do I have that you're actually going to follow through with it?
- as noted above Codex Astartes was objectively in the best interests of the Imperium; the Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion much less the Legion-level of organization more generally is a testament against his alleged brilliance
The Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion had more to do with his lack of understanding when it came to the mind of Luther and those he sent back to Caliban. He sent them back not out of disgust or shame, but because it was necessary.
Those he sent back to Caliban viewed it as an insult.
- true, Lorgar came across as a brat; even so, Guilliman got punched in the face and I call that fanservice
Fanservice does not mean what you think it means. If it was Lorgar just randomly punching Guilliman in the face out of nowhere and it did nothing to really advance the story or showcase Guilliman's character like it did--then that'd be fanservice.
As it is, it showed how Lorgar behaves like a brat and Guilliman's a more stoic individual who understands the way things work. That's not really "fanservice" to the Ultramarine haters.
@Hulksmash: Sanguinius is another Primarch touched by Chaos (more literally than the Lion; approaching the level of Magnus) who is the paragon of filial love, whereas the Lion's reputation has always been shadowy.
And Russ' reputation was as a savage barbarian-king, yet what did we get of his true nature in Prospero Burns?
He's an educated individual who cultivates that reputation for a reason.
The Lion's reputation as "shadowy" has really only come about AFTER the Heresy. During the Heresy, he was a tactical mastermind whose warriors were known for their honor and courage.
The fluff you're thinking of (Guilliman's poisoned neck wound from Daemon-Fulgrim slowly healing) is in McNeill's first Ultra-novel but I don't know if it's original to McNeill.
You don't demand a peer attend you. Granted to be fair I'm thinking it's more along of the lines of Gulliman knowing just how loyal the Lion is and knowing he'll respond.
It wasn't just Dorn that threatened to go off the deepend when the idea was brought up. Russ was less than pleased. I wouldn't be surprised if Johnson had been around if he supported the idea honestly. It would have played well given the culture he came from.
Let's see, Gulliman got punched in the face, the Iron Hand dude got beat within an inch of his life (forget his damn name right now), and Dorn got the crap kicked out of him by Kurze who also laid a hurt on the Lion. It just seems to be a theme that the "good" primarchs got a bit roughed up by their bro's. I'm not seeing fan hate service here.
Regarding the chaos thing. Sanguinius had a mutation. All mutation is not indicative of actual chaos. However Sanguinius also wasn't alone on a chaos touched deathworld that had giant chaos spawn roaming it for the better part of a decade. Bit of a difference. The Lion grew up resisting chaos taint from day 1.
Let's say you have a hundred thousand guys and I have ten thousand. You insist that we split our forces into groups of one thousand. What guarantee do I have that you're actually going to follow through with it?
If the UM splitting is non-effective, then neither is the splitting of the others. In effect, I still have my hundred thousand and you still have ten thousand. In other words, you're no better off and I'm no worse off. But this is counter-factual nonsense. We know that the Ultras did actually split up and that there was no conspiracy. The "what-if" game here is just more Ultra-hate (the older flavor or Ward-hate).
- Luther was supposed to be the closest person to Jonson: a mentor, a brother, a father -- that's why his betrayal means so much; and yet the question must arise -- why didn't the Lion see it coming? Also, you're right, he miscalculated with regard to the perception of his own Marines (viewing his commands as insults)? And yet he casts aspersions Guilliman's way . . .
- "Fanservice" has a technical meaning that doesn't exactly apply here (since it involves nudity) but I am using the term to highlight exactly what you mentioned: punching Guilliman in the face was gratuitous. It was not a necessary plot device to tell us something about Lorgar that we couldn't have been revealed in better ways. (Please distinguish this from me saying it made no sense, which is no part of the definition of fanservice.)
@Hulksmash:
- Only Dorn made such a stink that violence erupted. From what we currently know, some of the others were skeptical but only Dorn was ready to fight.
- All the instances you mention have been well-established milestones in the backgrounds of those Primarchs. Punching Guilliuman in the face, by contrast, is a throw-away incident that we'd never heard of before and will probably not matter in the future. I say probably because Guilliman doesn't seem the type to let something like that fester into a grudge but Lorgar will remember it and I'd bet Kor Phaeron will bring it up at Ultramar or Calth. Again: imagine a novel where Mat Ward got punched in the face -- that's the same principle.
- About Sanguinius: you're kidding,right? Yeah, he wasn't alone on Baal, but Baal is certainly not any better than Caliban and Sanguinus just had a tribe not an army to back him up. Furthermore, Sanguinius's mutation was indeed the result of Chaos. He was also a psyker beyond the skill of most other primarchs, especially regarding his ability to look into the future. I'd say Sanguinius was also resisting Chaos "from day 1" -- although this likely true of all the Primarchs is some way or another as Chaos was almost certainly a key part of their creation and was most assuredly mixed up with getting them lost. The Lion is hardly alone in being tested by Chaos. What makes him interesting is that he did not either entirely resist or give into corruption -- or so it is widely thought.
Let's say you have a hundred thousand guys and I have ten thousand. You insist that we split our forces into groups of one thousand. What guarantee do I have that you're actually going to follow through with it?
If the UM splitting is non-effective, then neither is the splitting of the others. In effect, I still have my hundred thousand and you still have ten thousand. In other words, you're no better off and I'm no worse off. But this is counter-factual nonsense. We know that the Ultras did actually split up and that there was no conspiracy. The "what-if" game here is just more Ultra-hate (the older flavor or Ward-hate).
- Luther was supposed to be the closest person to Jonson: a mentor, a brother, a father -- that's why his betrayal means so much; and yet the question must arise -- why didn't the Lion see it coming? Also, you're right, he miscalculated with regard to the perception of his own Marines (viewing his commands as insults)? And yet he casts aspersions Guilliman's way . . .
Here's the simple problem.
You're looking at this with the "We know what happens later" aspect. There's still a lot of time between where we are in the books(even "Age of Darkness") and the end of the Heresy. We haven't even gotten to Calth yet.
Do you and I know that the Ultramarines split their Legions like they said to? Yes. But to Jonson, who's just been betrayed by his brothers, it looks like another of his brothers is getting ideas about doing the same thing and trying to drag him with.
You'll remember that the Dark Angels, following the Heresy, disbanded into Successors with no qualms about it. It's pretty clear that Jonson had no issues with Guilliman as time wore on.
But at the height of the Heresy? Can you really blame him for doubting Guilliman?
- "Fanservice" has a technical meaning that doesn't exactly apply here (since it involves nudity) but I am using the term to highlight exactly what you mentioned: punching Guilliman in the face was gratuitous. It was not a necessary plot device to tell us something about Lorgar that we couldn't have been revealed in better ways. (Please distinguish this from me saying it made no sense, which is no part of the definition of fanservice.)
Lorgar being a brat was revealed pretty well, what with him marring the aquila on Guilliman's armor.
Him punching Guilliman and Guilliman just responding with a quip shows more about Guilliman's character than you think it does. It shows that he considered such an insult beneath him to respond in force.
@Hulksmash:
- Only Dorn made such a stink that violence erupted. From what we currently know, some of the others were skeptical but only Dorn was ready to fight.
Dorn was the only one ready to fight, but many of the Legions didn't have their Primachs at that point.
- All the instances you mention have been well-established milestones in the backgrounds of those Primarchs. Punching Guilliuman in the face, by contrast, is a throw-away incident that we'd never heard of before and will probably not matter in the future.
You know what else we'd never heard of before? Pretty much everything in the Horus Heresy. We didn't know that Cypher was the title of the Chief Librarian of the Dark Angels until "Fallen Angels". We didn't know that Russ is essentially the Emperor's executioner, and that he cultivated the facade of barbarian king to put others off balance until "Prospero Burns".
When things get fleshed out, inevitably more comes to light.
I say probably because Guilliman doesn't seem the type to let something like that fester into a grudge but Lorgar will remember it and I'd bet Kor Phaeron will bring it up at Ultramar or Calth.
Which is kind of the point. Lorgar and the Word Bearers essentially manufacture the Heresy...because of an insult of their own making given to them by the Emperor.
Again: imagine a novel where Mat Ward got punched in the face -- that's the same principle.
Again: it's not. Guilliman isn't the issue. The overabundance of Ultramarines in material and their prevalence on the tabletop is the issue. A fan service would have been to write out Guilliman and the Ultramarines and have the Raven Guard be the ones doing the insulting to the Word Bearers.
Putting it bluntly: anything that goes against the Ultramarines in the Heresy is going to be viewed by many as "Ultra-hate" or a "fan service". Will you be saying that the scouring of Calth is a "fan service"?
It really didn't come across as fan service, but appropriate for the situation. And for the record: I like the Ultramarines. I like Guilliman, but that doesn't mean he's not a pompous git in many circumstances.
- About Sanguinius: you're kidding,right? Yeah, he wasn't alone on Baal, but Baal is certainly not any better than Caliban and Sanguinus just had a tribe not an army to back him up.
Jonson didn't have an army until he was an adult. For his first 12-15 years on Caliban: he was alone in the wilderness. He's essentially "The Wild Child", a foundling stumbled across and nearly killed by those he'd come to lead.
Furthermore, Sanguinius's mutation was indeed the result of Chaos. He was also a psyker beyond the skill of most other primarchs, especially regarding his ability to look into the future. I'd say Sanguinius was also resisting Chaos "from day 1" -- although this likely true of all the Primarchs is some way or another as Chaos was almost certainly a key part of their creation and was most assuredly mixed up with getting them lost.
This is a bit of a copout. The psyker bit has never really been substantiated. You don't necessarily have to be a psyker to be given visions of the future in the 40kverse.
The Lion is hardly alone in being tested by Chaos. What makes him interesting is that he did not either entirely resist or give into corruption -- or so it is widely thought.
What makes him interesting is more that he actually is the only one who recognized Chaos as what it is. He actively purged Chaos and the mutant offspring it produced from Caliban. No other Primarch was really exposed to Chaos in such a way.
- I just don't see how anyone could look at the Codex Astartes and see Guilliman trying to bilk them and not at the same time bilking himself. It's nonsense.
- Great point about the DA being on-board with the Codex when the time came, however. That makes perfect sense, too. The DA knew first hand by that point how unwieldy and dangerous a legion-sized organization could be. This is something I am really excited about . . . but it's a long way off til BL authors sink their teeth into this, I'd guess.
- I really disagree about the "Word Bearer manufacturing the Heresy." That's giving Lorgar way, way too much credit. In fact, more credit goes to Erebus than Lorgar. In any case, Lorgar is ironically a sideshow everywhere but in First Heretic. The Ruinous Powers are interested in Horus, not Lorgar.
- Calth cannot be "fanservice" because it is a well-established element of the history of the Heresy. You're really over-extending you argument into absurdity. The punch is a throw-away nothing. There are better ways to show Lorgar is a brat, which ADB eventually gets down to. But while he had Lorgar and Guilliman on the same planet, ADB could not seem to resist mussing Guilliman's dignity. It's not really important to the story at hand, or the characters, or the overarching plot. Sure it has meaning but having it stand in for 'the point of the whole Heresy' is absurd. And for the record, fanservice is not necessarily 'inappropriate for the situation.'
- I wasn't implying that Jonson grew up with an army at his beck and call, just trying to say that Sanguinius didn't grow up with one, either.
- Yes, the psyker bit has been fully established. In 40k, there's no such thing as "magic visions" outside of Chaos/the Warp/psychic powers (this is all one category). Sanguinius foresaw in a vision the coming of the Emperor and met him on bended knee. Contrast to Konrad.
- There is no evidence that Jonson knew what Chaos was before any of the other loyalist primarchs. As far as he was concerned, he was just making Caliban better for the people of Caliban.
Manchu wrote: everything else we know about the post-heresy era
Which is what exactly ?
There's the "Scouring" as they chase the traitors into the Eye, a few events like the reign of Vandire and that's about it really.
Perhaps Guilliman's plans change once the HH is over, perhaps he never gets a chance to fully enact them owing to the interference of outside forces, such as the Alpha Legion, mysterious plot devices or even the ever reliable Fulgrim.
Realistically I would suggest that even prior to the start of the HH series, we knew more key events and motivations of what happend during the HH than in pretty much any era in the game, with the exception of the 41stM of course.
- I just don't see how anyone could look at the Codex Astartes and see Guilliman trying to bilk them and not at the same time bilking himself. It's nonsense.
Because nobody saw the Codex Astartes while it was being worked on. There was no input from everyone else. There was just Guilliman doing it and then producing it, saying it had to be followed.
Can you not see how that is an issue?
- Great point about the DA being on-board with the Codex when the time came, however. That makes perfect sense, too. The DA knew first hand by that point how unwieldy and dangerous a legion-sized organization could be. This is something I am really excited about . . . but it's a long way off til BL authors sink their teeth into this, I'd guess.
Indeed.
- I really disagree about the "Word Bearer manufacturing the Heresy." That's giving Lorgar way, way too much credit. In fact, more credit goes to Erebus than Lorgar. In any case, Lorgar is ironically a sideshow everywhere but in First Heretic. The Ruinous Powers are interested in Horus, not Lorgar.
That's why I said the Word Bearers.
- Calth cannot be "fanservice" because it is a well-established element of the history of the Heresy. You're really over-extending you argument into absurdity. The punch is a throw-away nothing. There are better ways to show Lorgar is a brat, which ADB eventually gets down to. But while he had Lorgar and Guilliman on the same planet, ADB could not seem to resist mussing Guilliman's dignity. It's not really important to the story at hand, or the characters, or the overarching plot. Sure it has meaning but having it stand in for 'the point of the whole Heresy' is absurd. And for the record, fanservice is not necessarily 'inappropriate for the situation.'
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point, because really I don't see how it's some kind of example of ADB "mussing Guilliman's dignity". Other stuff has been published that is far more "mussing Guilliman's dignity" than that.
- I wasn't implying that Jonson grew up with an army at his beck and call, just trying to say that Sanguinius didn't grow up with one, either.
I know, but still saying that Jonson had an easy time is a bit silly. The entirety of the world of Baal wasn't trying to kill Sanguinius from the day he landed.
- Yes, the psyker bit has been fully established. Sanguinius foresaw in a vision the coming of the Emperor and met him on bended knee. Contrast to Konrad.
Pretty much every Primarch had some kind of vision granted to them of the Emperor's coming.
- There is no evidence that Jonson knew what Chaos was before any of the other loyalist primarchs. As far as he was concerned, he was just making Caliban better for the people of Caliban.
Then explain why he made a point of ordering the texts seized from the last bastion of one of the opposing orders, which was harboring Beasts, to be destroyed.
Luther disobeyed him and had the texts preserved, but still.
The lead-up to the Second Founding, the epilogue to the HH, is an era that we know a lot (comparatively) about. For example:
- Guilliman held the Imperium together during the Scouring and beyond (as well as doing most of the Scouring)
- Guilliman promulgated Codex Astartes
- a shattered Dorn resisted this but eventually gave in when he saw that his actions would bring about another heresy
- Guilliman retreated from the enormous authority he was wielding to become *just* the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines
None of this squares with the Lion's cynicism. Kanluwen points out that the Lion couldn't have known what hadn't happened yet. Okay. But here's what it does demonstrate: With the benefit of 'hindisght,' we know about Guilliman's character and we have no reason to doubt that it was any different before or during the Heresy than it was afterward. We actually have evidence to the contrary from 'Last Heretic.' So the Lion's opinion is more revealing about the Lion than about Guilliman: Jonson either does not know his brother very well or is a paranoiac (or both). Maybe it was a good time to be paranoid -- but if you're going to subscribe to that, then why complain about the way that Guilliman 'summoned' Jonson?
Manchu wrote:The lead-up to the Second Founding, the epilogue to the HH, is an era that we know a lot (comparatively) about. For example:
- Guilliman held the Imperium together during the Scouring and beyond (as well as doing most of the Scouring)
- Guilliman promulgated Codex Astartes
- a shattered Dorn resisted this but eventually gave in when he saw that his actions would bring about another heresy
- Guilliman retreated from the enormous authority he was wielding to become *just* the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines
None of this squares with the Lion's cynicism. Kanluwen points out that the Lion couldn't have known what hadn't happened yet. Okay. But here's what it does demonstrate: With the benefit of 'hindsight,' we know about Guilliman's character and we have no reason to doubt that it was any different before or during the Heresy than it was afterward. We actually have evidence to the contrary from 'Last Heretic.' So the Lion's opinion is more revealing about the Lion than about Guilliman: Jonson either does not know his brother very well or is a paranoiac (or both). Maybe it was a good time to be paranoid -- but if you're going to subscribe to that, then why complain about the way that Guilliman 'summoned' Jonson?
Okay. Again:
Say you're Jonson. Say your previously (relatively) unimportant brother, who constantly tries to be a peacemaker, always made it clear that he considered the other Primarchs his "equals" and was always fairly aloof but ruled a huge sector of space, suddenly sends you a message while you are out of touch with Terra and unable to get to Terra either and 'summons' you to his side.
That kind of paranoia is definitely acceptable. If the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders had been a bit more paranoid--the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre may not have happened.
BaronIveagh wrote:Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes.
But this is not the case -- although almost all Chapters descend from the Ultras and revere Guilliman as an ancestor, they do not (seem to) have any formal relationship among them that would instantly "re-legion-ize" the Ultramarines. This conspiracy theory is one of the main pillars of Ultra-hate mythology.
Um, yeah, the only proof of that is fluff where Ultramarines seem to enjoy close ties with their successor chapters, much more so then any but the Blood Angels (insults against the honor of a successor seem to equate hate among all the successor chapters and the Ultramarines themselves, the Ultramarines just have to do some name dropping to get some of the successor chapters on board for a operation, only the most 'distant' and 'debased' such as the Mortificators requiring them to go through the trouble of sitting through a ritual). Oh, and it's nice to know that I can make a pillar of 'Ultra-hate' off the top of my head.
It's funny how I can be accused of being both a hater and a fanboy re: Space Marines (and Black Templars and Ultramarines in particular). Perhaps these terms get bandied about too much, or have they simply devolved into:
'Cult: The Church down the street from yours' - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.
BTW: Guilliman goes on to not only be 'just' the leader of Ultramarines, but also the commander of the entire military might of the Imperium as one of the first High Lords of Terra. Tell me how that's a step down again?
See to my mind we don't know what happened in that period, other than from certain perspectives or in somewhat vague detail.
For example Dorn resisted the Codex decree, I agree we're told that. Of course we don't really know why he resisted the plan. It could be, just as an example I'm just using this for arguments sake here, that he resisted as he saw that Guilliman was inded trying to take over or usurp the role of the Emperor, and was indeed then forced to back down when it became apparent he would have to fight over it if push came to shove. The legions who sided with Guilliman were all much reduced in strength.. did they agree out of principle or fear/ co-ercion ? And how would this be written or recorded years later by descendants who view them as nearly perfect.... ?
Now I don't agree or hold that Guilliman was a cruel tyrant. One might even go so far as to suggest it would have better for humanity if he had taken over fully -- Ultramar and it's regions is a veritable paradise compared to much of the setting. But no Primarch or legion wasn't prepared to get their hands dirty.. if needs be.
I read it all as Guilliman looked at the situation, realises that in all probability even if the Emperor survives or stops Horus the Imperium as it is, is finsihed. Whether or not he/his legion could have gotten there we don't know ( presumably until.. oohh.. next year IMO ). So he wouldn't have seen this as a betrayal, indeed it was just more of him following his father's orders to bring order to the cosmos and save humanity.
I think there's an interesting parallel between him and Alpharius ( again) which highlights the difference in the ways the two think. One wonders in fact what Guilliman would have done if it had been him who had been contacted by the Cabal and shown what Alpharius and Co. were shown.
Then explain why he made a point of ordering the texts seized from the last bastion of one of the opposing orders, which was harboring Beasts, to be destroyed.
Easy:
Beasts = Bad
People Who Harbor Beasts = Bad
Books Written By People Who Harbor Beasts = Bad
No need for any understanding of Chaos here, much less a sophisticated one.
Other points:
- The others knew something about Codex Astartes before Guilliman demanded it be followed. How could they oppose it otherwise?
- The Word Bearers did not manufacture the Heresy.
- I did not say Jonson had it easy; I said Sanguinius did not have it easy.
- No, every Primarch did not have a vision of the Emperor. In fact, only Sanguinius, Lorgar, and Konrad Curze did. (Indeed, it is not clear that the figure in Lorgar's vision was even the Emperor. Lorgar has his own doubts.) Magnus met him in the Warp, however, which is not the same thing as a precognitive vision.
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Kanluwen wrote:That kind of paranoia is definitely acceptable.
Then so is the paranoia that occasioned the 'summoning.'
@BaronIveagh: There are no formal ties between all or even most of the Ultramarine successors. You're not the first person to think of the "ultra-legion" conspiracy and I didn't accuse you of making it up. It has no basis in fact. The only faction that still has formal alliances that preserve their common organizational descent are the Dark Angels.
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reds8n wrote:I read it all as Guilliman looked at the situation, realises that in all probability even if the Emperor survives or stops Horus the Imperium as it is, is finsihed. Whether or not he/his legion could have gotten there we don't know ( presumably until.. oohh.. next year IMO ). So he wouldn't have seen this as a betrayal, indeed it was just more of him following his father's orders to bring order to the cosmos and save humanity.
I think that is the reasonable conclusion and have been arguing as much. So the next logical step is realizing that Jonson's opinion of Guilliman doesn't tell us anything about Guilliman; rather, it tells us about the paranoia of the times and about Jonson's own character.
Kanluwen wrote:What "paranoia" justified the sudden talking down to of a brother Primarch?
See, this is the equivalent of the "necron brofist" criticism of Mat Ward. Or the GK "blood bathing" argument. You're taking something, putting your own spin on it, and then using the spinned argument as if it were a fact. Ward never wrote anything even close to a brofist or a blood bath and Guilliman did not talk down to Jonson. Guilliman told Jonson to come to a certain place. Now, things can be taken in various ways. For example, if I say "Kanluwen, give me your argument as to why you think Guilliman is being condescending" you could think "Manchu is asking that I give him my argument" or you could think "Manchu is ordering and demanding that I give him my argument." The way your interpret what I say is indicative of something about you and NOT of something about me. Now, the phrase I used says something about me. In the case we're discussing, Guilliman phrased it in a pragmatic way. "Come to X, there is trouble." And the Lion interpreted it as an upstart order? Fine. Next time, Guilliman should say "The Primarch of the Ultramarines humbly requests the illustrious presence of his honor and magnificence the esteemed and well-loved Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the wonderful, beautiful, adorable Dark Angels. RSVP."
As I said, it's no wonder the Sons of the Lion wear dresses.
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Kanluwen wrote:So wait, you can hate on Jonson but Guilliman's offlimits?
I call shenanigans!
Call it all you like. It's okay to criticize someone for a sensible reason. But no one ever criticizes Guilliman for sensible reasons. Again, same goes for Mat Ward.
My point was: if Jonson's paranoia is justiifed because of the big picture then so is Guilliman's/
And just like the "blood bathing" and "necron brofist" we don't actually have any details of the summons, outside of the Lion's statement of: "Knowing we have been unable to reach Terra, it seems the Lord of Ultramar wishes us at his side instead".
And his final statement of "It seems Horus is not the only soul to believe he is heir to the empire".
That's all we have to go by, outside of the quotation that he makes of an old Calibanite proverb.
Does it mean that Guilliman might have couched it the way you're talking about? Sure.
Does it mean that it might have been couched the way I'm talking about? Sure.
You have to remember that every other time where there's been a case of "dignified contact" between the Primarchs, it's always been face to face contact or by messengers actually being sent. What amounts to a verbal "Hey, you. Do this" is an insult.
No one is criticizing Guilliman for the sake of criticizing him here. You're interpreting persecution which is not present (at least not from me).
To give an example: say you and I work together. Say we have the same job, same pay, same title, same everything. We get along well and go out of our way for the majority of our interaction to make sure that it's clear there's a mutual respect.
Then half of our fellow employees go nuts and try to seize control of the company, shaking things up and setting everyone at each other's throats.
You don't know who's doing what, everyone's flipping out, and paranoia runs rampant. Now you suddenly have a voicemail 'requesting' your presence in my office.
-Gulliman already gave into a baser need for vengeance/power before. He talks about it in the story and states that he's gone to lengths to purge himself of it. Doesn't mean it's not still there and that's by his own word.
-How is growing up with a tribe to teach you/protect you from infancy on a pretty hardcore world anywhere near the same as growing up on a deathworld from infancy by yourself for the first 10 years of your life?
@Thread in general
The way I read the Gulliman story was that Gully, instead of marshalling and marching on his foes spent his time running training "scenarios" to develop a tactical tome that centered around his domain being invaded (funny that since he's also training his men to fight even loyal chapters).
At the end of it he realizes it's got a gaping flaw. Tie that in with a call to Johnson who (if he'd been better at reading people in general) would have ended Horus's march on Terra before it started and maybe you'll see more of the Lion's hand in "Gulilman's Great Work".
On Johnson's paranoia remember he's been recently betrayed by a brother he trusted when he handed over all that lovely seige equipment. That being the case can you blame the guy for wondering at people?
@Hulksmash: Hold up, the point is that Baal was no picnic either and that Jonson wasn't unique in being confronted by Chaos. Jonson fought Chaos externally -- Sanguinius faced Chaos on the inside, in himself.
@Kanluwen & Hulksmash: Was Jonson justified in his paranoia? Yes, to the extent that it was directed against any other Primarch but not to the extent that it was directed at Guilliman specifically. Also there is a difference between saying "he might be a traitor" and "he wants to replace the Emperor." Jonson is implying the latter. The argument in this thread has been that he's implying the latter because Guilliman presumptuously 'summoned' him. That's a bit of a stretch. If the Lion thinks so, then that says something about Jonson and his view of Guilliman. It doesn't tell us anything about Guilliman.
Check out the articles on Dakka: DarkLordSeanron's last work portrays Guilliman in a very interesting light. Obviously non-canon, but reflects some of the arguments here about his intentions.
You've obviously got an extreme....love...for Gulliman. Gulliman presents himself poorly in his story. Ignoring the galaxy going to hell to write a book. You also don't seem to care for the Lion at the same time. No one is gonna sway you so further discourse is silly. Agree to disagree buddy.
I still contend that we'll see some of the Lion's influence on the codex: astartes. It would be stupid to not include one of the top 2-3 Tactical minds among the Primarchs.
The way I read the Gulliman story was that Gully, instead of marshalling and marching on his foes spent his time running training "scenarios" to develop a tactical tome that centered around his domain being invaded (funny that since he's also training his men to fight even loyal chapters).
Funny that considering half of the trators were once 'loyal' legions, one might as well train to fight them all if they turn too.
On Johnson's paranoia remember he's been recently betrayed by a brother he trusted when he handed over all that lovely seige equipment. That being the case can you blame the guy for wondering at people?
And you know why he did that? To secure support from Perturabo to be Warmaster himself.....so it appears that maybe the Lion is projecting a bit in his suspiscions of Guilliman yes?
On Johnson's paranoia remember he's been recently betrayed by a brother he trusted when he handed over all that lovely seige equipment. That being the case can you blame the guy for wondering at people?
And you know why he did that? To secure support from Perturabo to be Warmaster himself.....so it appears that maybe the Lion is projecting a bit in his suspicions of Guilliman yes?
Hahaha whaaaaaaaaaaat.
Hulksmash is referring to what happened at the end of "Fallen Angels". This was before the Istvaanian Drop Site Massacre, before when Perturabo was known to be in league with Horus.
He gave the equipment over because he knew the Iron Warriors were one of the Legions gathering to 'punish' Horus.
The call from Guilliman came after the Istvaanian Drop Site Massacre, and likely has Jonson in a bit of a funk because he handed over a weapon that will no doubt be used to kill further Loyalists and their fortifications to what were arguably at the time the ultimate besiegers.
Hulksmash wrote:You've obviously got an extreme....love...for Gulliman.
Yeah, I didn't use to like him because everyone who knew more about 40k than me didn't like him. But then I started to learn about 40k and realized that folks just didn't like him apparently because he was . . . really awesome? Too awesome? Really? He's actually a great character and very interesting. Whoever gets to do an UM novel, I hope they're up to the task. As for the Lion, I actually like him as well. I like all of them, really. What peeves me is the need to bash (sometimes literally, ADB) Guilliman in order to make the other Primarchs seem more interesting.
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BaronIveagh wrote:BTW: Guilliman goes on to not only be 'just' the leader of Ultramarines, but also the commander of the entire military might of the Imperium as one of the first High Lords of Terra. Tell me how that's a step down again?
Sorry, I just saw this. The answer is that I was already talking about this: Guilliman goes from Primarch of the XIIIth Legion to High Lord or Terra Regent of the Imperium really to *just* Chapter Master of the Ultramarines/Lord Macragge.
Hulksmash wrote:You've obviously got an extreme....love...for Gulliman.
Yeah, I didn't use to like him because everyone who knew more about 40k than me didn't like him. But then I started to learn about 40k and realized that folks just didn't like him apparently because he was . . . really awesome? Too awesome? Really? He's actually a great character and very interesting.
I really hate to say it, but he's really not that interesting or great as it stands now. He wrote the Codex Astartes, but that's really his 'big claim to fame' right now.
Does this mean he's necessarily "boring"? No. But there's just not too much to get excited about that we know about now.
Whoever gets to do an UM novel, I hope they're up to the task. As for the Lion, I actually like him as well. I like all of them, really.
Now who's projecting. Guilliman, right now, has nothing too fascinating like the Lion or Corax do.
What peeves me is the need to bash (sometimes literally, ADB) Guilliman in order to make the other Primarchs seem more interesting.
I'm sorry, what? This is what, the third or fourth time Guilliman's been mentioned in the HH books.
-You have the Cabal talking about how Guilliman's vision is "too limited, and corrupted by his dream of a utopia" which makes him unsuitable for the role of 'saving the Imperium'.
-You have the mention of him in "The First Heretic", showing him as this incredibly trusted individual who the Emperor goes to, calling upon him to punish the freaking Word Bearers publicly and basically standing there and literally turning the other cheek when Lorgar throws a temper tantrum and attacks him.
-And now you have the triple stories from Age of Darkness, showing him in a new light where it's not unpossible to draw the conclusion that Guilliman is either preparing a way to seize power if he deems it necessary to ensure a "utopian Imperium"['Iron Within'](the way the Praetorian Guard of the Roman Empire behaved comes to mind here, you know where they'd kill anyone who they deemed "unfit" to rule) or is preparing to mount his own offensive against Horus, or if you chose to read it another way--he's preparing to secede and wants one of his most loyal and trusted brothers at his side to help him rule his own empire.
It's amusing you'd say this, because pretty much the whipping boy of the Primarchs isn't Guilliman. It's Dorn. All of the Primarchs seemingly look down upon him because he's withdrawn to Terra.
Isn't Dorn the Regent of Terra? I never got the impression he was despised because of this . . .
But about Guilliman being fascinating . . .
- His lack of ego sets him apart from all of his brothers. - He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right (unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely). - He's the only Imperial commander that's actually interested in leaving the galaxy better than he found it (discounting re-joining the Imperium/completing xeno-genocide being the sole definition of "better"). - Guilliman is the embodiment of the ideals of the Great Crusade: a rational, efficient, self-sufficient utopian. It's no surprise that the ONLY place (including Terra) where the Great Crusade was a lasting success is Ultramar -- and, by the way, it was already like that before the Emperor got there. Talk about efficient!
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he's preparing to secede and wants one of his most loyal and trusted brothers at his side to help him rule his own empire.
Manchu wrote:Isn't Dorn the Regent of Terra? I never got the impression he was despised because of this . . .
Not the Regent, the Seneschal. The defense of Terra was his responsibility.
But about Guilliman being fascinating . . .
- His lack of ego sets him apart from all of his brothers.
Corax had no ego. Jonson had no ego. Mannus had no ego.
There's plenty of members of the Primarchs who "lacked an ego".
- He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right (unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely).
I'm not sure why this is "proof that he was right". He didn't think he should be Warmaster because Horus was going to start a Heresy.
- He's the only Imperial commander that's actually interested in leaving the galaxy better than he found it (discounting re-joining the Imperium/completing xeno-genocide being the sole definition of "better").
Again: Corax, Jonson, Alpharius*Omegon.
- Guilliman is the embodiment of the ideals of the Great Crusade: a rational, efficient, self-sufficient utopian. It's no surprise that the ONLY place (including Terra) where the Great Crusade was a lasting success was Ultramar -- and, by the way, it was already like that before the Emperor got there. Talk about efficient!
And Caliban, while in a Dark Age, was well on its way to becoming a utopia before the Imperium started to stripmine the place for resources.
Deliverance was a utopia following Corax's rebellion.
he's preparing to secede and wants one of his most loyal and trusted brothers at his side to help him rule his own empire.
That is preposterous.
So is the idea that Jonson "sat out the Heresy and waited to see who would win".
It doesn't stop people from thinking it to be true though, now does it?
I posted one simple potential reading that isn't too far fetched given the context of "Rules of Engagement" and "Iron Within"(Y'know, where Guilliman has sent an envoy to the Loyalist Iron Warriors and instructed them to hold out and deplete Horus' forces),
Manchu wrote:
- He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right (unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely).
He you had me until this one.
I will go into an apoplectic rage for the ages if this is ever revealed to be the case.
I will go into a slightly smaller apoplectic rage for the ages if the other rumored 'shocking truth'
Spoiler:
(The Emperor is really just a withered husk of a man, fooling everyone with his OMG Psychic Might!)
Dorn got the duty of any military affairs, like fortifying the palace ( which perturabo wanted to do ), commanding the Legions in the Emperors
absence ( busy in his dungeons ), facing the traitors at the siege.
Manchu wrote:
- He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right
How many aren't thinking to become Warmaster is their right? 3 of 18 deem themselves worthy as far as we know yet.
But Gullyman wanted more. His tome had the subtitle Imperium Secundus. Written after Calth...
Heresy
Manchu wrote:(unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely).
Honestly there is a lot left to be revealed but Gully isn't pure as the driven snow. I find it hilarious that the idea that the Lion might have ulterior motives for not making it to Terra is acceptable cause he's "shadowy" but heaven forbid people question Gully and think that writing a book is a good reason not to head out to save the galaxy and his father.....
@Thirdultra
That's just silly. Since it was already well known that the Salamanders at that point were on the right side and were nearly wiped out. But he's still training to fight them. One thinks he thinks everyone might not agree with him.
Guilleman is preparing for all possible eventualities, hence squaring his men off against Legions both traitorous and loyal. It could be that he is foreseeing how the march on Terra will go and that he is preparing the the period known as the Scouring, when the Ultras were everywhere putting out fires and keeping the Imperium together. Mind you, this is just me thinking out loud.
One thing to keep in mind with the info found in Angels of Darkness, it's being recounted by a Fallen Angel, something the author himself has pointed out vaguely as "it could be true, he could be lying his head off" to keep the readers guessing. Or in some cases, arguing.
I personally don't doubt that he is preparing for the aftermath of the seige of terra. However no one really knows why he completely sat it out. He didn't even have the excuse of warpstorms (as far as we know so far) that kept him away like the Lion did. From appearances he didn't even try though I'm sure it will be explained.
As for all scenarios maybe. But he's basically running invasion scenarios for his little empire while leaving all the real fighting after Calth to the other kids.
@Manchu
There we are in agreement....Magnus's ego was enormous. "I've conquered Chaos!" "I do what I want! I'm totally important!" I can't think of many more Primarchs that have a greater ego (outside of Fulgrim, Perturbo, and Horus).
Hulksmash wrote:I find it hilarious that the idea that the Lion might have ulterior motives for not making it to Terra is acceptable cause he's "shadowy" but heaven forbid people question Gully and think that writing a book is a good reason not to head out to save the galaxy and his father.
For the sake of argument, let's say that both the UM and the DA sat Terra out on purpose. What are the motivations?
UM: Persevere in order to swing around and either (a) fortify the victorious but depleted loyalists (i.e., what actually happened) or (b) become a backup for Terra and the Imperium. Please note that (a) and (b) come to much the same thing.
DA: Become catatonic in the face of their internal civil war and loss of their Primarch (i.e., what actually happened).
So even if we measure their actions with this assumption, Guilliman turns out to be playing what the Baron called the "Long Game" while the Lion is just the victim of tragedy. Guilliman, in contrast to the Lion, is in control. Also, have you ever thought of what Guilliman's purpose might be? Russ, for example, was designed to serve a purpose: as an attack dog to keep traitorous Astartes in line. What might Guilliman's purpose have been?
. . . a backup Imperium -- so that the Emperor's vision would survive in part even in the case all went to gak (i.e., what actually happened)?
The Lion does strike me a bit as a naive opportunist. He did trade the super siege guns in return for Perturabo's vote for Warmaster when everything was over.
He's kind of like the Emperor inasmuch as he has to deal with his own personal "Horus Heresy."
The question we all ask is "Why didn't the Emperor see it coming?" The idea that Horus was his favorite son doesn't seem completely convincing to me.
Similarly, why didn't Jonson notice Luther's treachery? Instead, the Lion suspects Guilliman. He ends up looking for the traitor in the completely wrong place -- the traitor isn't some other Primarch far away, but the serpent in his bosom.
The Emperor at least had no reason to be paranoid before Horus's treachery was revealed. But you'd think the Heresy would make each of the Primarch's take a hard look at their own legions.
In fact, that'd make a great UM HH book -- especially given what we found out (or seemed to find out?) in First Heretic.
The much-despised (not by me though) Dark Angel novels do a great job of laying those first seeds of heresy within the First Legion. It also didn't help that the Lion personally shipped home those he deemed "suspects" of treason, putting them under the command of someone who, while a close friend, had tried to kill him.
**Forgot we're not gonna change each others mind so I'm good, I'll just read this for now**
Regarding his "suspicions" I think this is getting blown up a little. I don't think he thinks Gulliman is another Horus. He's simply stating that his brother also sees himself as an Heir to the throne. And to show even more proof of a lack of suspicion he actually responds to the "summons". Don't think he would do that if he truly suspected Gully of being another Horus.
Regarding the seige weapons. While the Lion might have asked for Perturbo's support for the next position of Warmaster he would have handed those weapons over anyway. They were going with the legion that could make the best use of them in crushing Horus. Don't make it sound like he was gonna hold on to them if Perturbo said no.
BrookM wrote:The much-despised (not by me though) Dark Angel novels do a great job of laying those first seeds of heresy within the First Legion. It also didn't help that the Lion personally shipped home those he deemed "suspects" of treason, putting them under the command of someone who, while a close friend, had tried to kill him.
You know, I've always kind of felt that the reasoning that the Fallen gave was such a half-arsed one.
"He sent us home because he doesn't trust us!".
Remember, the only person who was aware of Luther's supposed 'treachery' during "Descent of Angels"...was Luther himself and the Librarian whose name eludes me.
Luther suspected the Lion knew, but it all strikes me as being much like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Luther felt he betrayed the Lion and was being punished, when in actuality the Lion was rewarding him with the ultimate trust of stewardship of Caliban.
Luther feels slighted, and actually goes to the point of betraying the Lion.
Luther is just jealous of the Lion, that's it. Just look back at the big battle on Calliban with the last beasts in the castle. Luther deals a massive blow to the last beast and probably slays it, but the Lion deals a quick blow himself as the beast dies, everybody cheers on the Lion, the librarian to be sees Luther shed a manly tear of rejection.
iproxtaco wrote:Zahariel El'Zurias? Or do you mean Israfel, the one who recruited Zahariel Kanluwen?
I think it might be Zahariel. I don't have my copy of DoA/FA readily handy(they're on loan to a friend who's devouring the HH series after playing Dawn of War 2).
Remember, the librarian I'm referring to helped Luther defuse that whole 'situation' and things went from there.
I'm personally thrilled with how the good primarchs look in the HH series so far... especially Guilliman, Russ, and Dorn (they're not perfect, I wouldn't say flawed, but still just awesome).
I think its clear that Russ and Guilliman have two sides. The side they show around outsiders (read also: not their Legion) and the side they show to their own.
All three (Russ, Dorn, Guilliman) are clearly playing a longer game than the crusades.
I see Guilliman being too heavy handed with his brothers, but being too caught up in his Legion, his problems, his goals, his planet(s) to see how it reads to others (just like the Lion, Magnus, Lorgar, and, dare I say, the Emperor).
I think its clear that Guilliman knew there was no way to trust any of the Legions other than a select few, so even after reports of Horus' Heresy and the Drop site Massacre make their way to him, he has no way to know what's true and how everyone will react/act after the dust settles. But he knows that someone will need to be prepared for the "after" and feels it needs to be him.
I think its reasonable for him to already see that when the "after" rolls around, the Legions need to be split and he wants a solid primer for his successor chapters and commanders of his own operating away from his lines of communication.
Come on, what primarch isn't concerned about his legacy after the Crusades are over (and then after the Heresy is over)?
...and we already know that Horus sets up the Word Bearers/Ultramarine clash, so to think RG held back is silly, since we already know he was bushwacked by Horus and then has to defend against a WB attack that Horus was sending his way.
iproxtaco wrote:Zahariel El'Zurias? Or do you mean Israfel, the one who recruited Zahariel Kanluwen?
I think it might be Zahariel. I don't have my copy of DoA/FA readily handy(they're on loan to a friend who's devouring the HH series after playing Dawn of War 2).
Remember, the librarian I'm referring to helped Luther defuse that whole 'situation' and things went from there.
Spoiler:
Zahariel is the main character of the book, with his cousin Nemiel. Zahariel is a Librarian by the end and present when the Chaos entity thing is killed on Sarosh, but I would think it's Israfael, the guy who saved him from execution after the plot to kill The Emperor, and who recognized his psyker powers during the Trials. Both IIRC are present at the end of the book although I would need my book in-front of me to confirm, as mine is also absent. I know that Zahariel was sent back to Caliban along with the rest.
Manchu wrote:@BaronIveagh: There are no formal ties between all or even most of the Ultramarine successors. You're not the first person to think of the "ultra-legion" conspiracy and I didn't accuse you of making it up. It has no basis in fact. The only faction that still has formal alliances that preserve their common organizational descent are the Dark Angels.
And the Blood Angels. Less formal organizations seem to exist for the Imperial Fists (based on Phalanx and the Deathwatch core book) and the Ultramarines (based on Rites of Battle and the various BL novels where the Ultramarines interact with successor chapters). Given the level of primarch worship in many chapters, frankly, if he were to return, he'd probably just have to order them to form up on him.
I hate to say it, but.. if more then a handful of people think of something when looking at what little evidence is on hand, and independently come up with the same thing, odds are it's fact. Or at least true from a certain point of view.
No ones mentioned Jonson's conversation at the end of Fallen Angels about he could have been warmaster but for a quirk of fate and could he rely on support when the time came?
He has so far came across as very arrogant and I think it's implied that all he's interested in is his own agenda. Not have read the latest can't comment on those but wanted to remind people of that little convo
Vermillion wrote:No ones mentioned Jonson's conversation at the end of Fallen Angels about he could have been warmaster but for a quirk of fate and could he rely on support when the time came?
He has so far came across as very arrogant and I think it's implied that all he's interested in is his own agenda. Not have read the latest can't comment on those but wanted to remind people of that little convo
But to be fair, every Primarch seems to think he might have been Warmaster.
Vermillion wrote:No ones mentioned Jonson's conversation at the end of Fallen Angels about he could have been warmaster but for a quirk of fate and could he rely on support when the time came?
He has so far came across as very arrogant and I think it's implied that all he's interested in is his own agenda. Not have read the latest can't comment on those but wanted to remind people of that little convo
But to be fair, every Primarch seems to think he might have been Warmaster.
Yeah seems to be true of most Never saw any hint of it in dorn, Alpharius or Mortarion thus far in my interpretations though, but Jonson has come right out with it
Got to admit up to propero burns its mainly the primarachs set to fall that are the most sympathetic to the reader. Just started Prospero Burns so will see how Russ turns out to me.
Jonson though just comes across as arrogant, blinkered and power hungry.
Hulksmash is referring to what happened at the end of "Fallen Angels". This was before the Istvaanian Drop Site Massacre, before when Perturabo was known to be in league with Horus.
He gave the equipment over because he knew the Iron Warriors were one of the Legions gathering to 'punish' Horus.
The call from Guilliman came after the Istvaanian Drop Site Massacre, and likely has Jonson in a bit of a funk because he handed over a weapon that will no doubt be used to kill further Loyalists and their fortifications to what were arguably at the time the ultimate besiegers.
My point was that Jonson comes across as an opportunist and that his suspicions may be part envy/jealousy that Guilliman may be staking his claim to leadership of the empire.
Though considering the times, I don't think anyone is doubting why one would be suspicious of their own when others are turning.
BrookM has made the same points I have, though he has explained them better...lol!
Manchu wrote:Yeah, I didn't use to like him because everyone who knew more about 40k than me didn't like him. But then I started to learn about 40k and realized that folks just didn't like him apparently because he was . . . really awesome? Too awesome? Really? He's actually a great character and very interesting.
I really hate to say it, but he's really not that interesting or great as it stands now. He wrote the Codex Astartes, but that's really his 'big claim to fame' right now.
Does this mean he's necessarily "boring"? No. But there's just not too much to get excited about that we know about now.
I don't know if you two are still debating this, but ultimately I'd say things like "boring"/"interesting" are subjective and aren't really worth arguing about IMHO. I respect Manchu's opinion of Guilliman; I must agree with it a lot, but I still have my qualms about him...
BrookM wrote:Guilleman is preparing for all possible eventualities, hence squaring his men off against Legions both traitorous and loyal. It could be that he is foreseeing how the march on Terra will go and that he is preparing the the period known as the Scouring, when the Ultras were everywhere putting out fires and keeping the Imperium together. Mind you, this is just me thinking out loud.
I like this idea actually, it's fairly reasonable. We know Guilliman was [most] skilled with logistics, maybe, rather than intending to 'replace' the Emperor as Jonson suggests in AoD, Guilliman was actually preparing for what he thought (and did) would happen after the HH - i.e. the scouring and hunting of the traitor Legions. Like Brook, this is just me thinking aloud mind...
Manchu wrote:At first, I read "Magnus had no ego." Fortunately, I caught my mistake before my head exploded!
I did exactly the same thing!
Manchu wrote:Russ, for example, was designed to serve a purpose: as an attack dog to keep traitorous Astartes in line. What might Guilliman's purpose have been?
. . . a backup Imperium -- so that the Emperor's vision would survive in part even in the case all went to gak (i.e., what actually happened)?
Russ was a bit more than that (an attack dog against everything; the ultimate weapon IMHO), but that's a minor point...
I can't remember where, it may have been in one of the earlier HH novels, but I think it was mentioned how Guilliman was the most capable logician and would have been the Emperors successor; where Horus could conquer, Guilliman could sustain? Similar to your view really...
Kanluwen wrote:But to be fair, every Primarch seems to think he might have been Warmaster.
That's an over-exaggeration and then some I'd say.
---
It must be said, one of the great things about the HH series is how it raises as many questions as it answers and is a great point for debate...
I must re-read my ranking the primarchs thread to see how things compared to then and now...
I've been thinking about this for a long while, after reading Descent of Angels / Fallen Angels.
The way I see it, Johnson is essentially the 40k equivalent of (picking your poison..) Sherlock Holmes / Dr House.
Sadly, I'm more familiar with House than the Holmes novels, so I'm going to have to give my analogies that way.
Essentially, Johnson was to fighting a war, as House/Holmes is to solving (medical) mysteries.
And Then you have Luther as Johnson's Wilson/Watson (the heart, to the head). And, that's where all the Dark Angels tragedy comes from, him separating himself from his counterweight.
Johnson probably thought he should be Warmaster because he saw himself as The Master of War, but, without Luther, he's incapable of sympathising enough with people. Unlike either Horus or Gulliman (Though Sanguinius or Vulkan would be top on the 'people' role I think).
I'm not sure how much Savage Weapons confirms or invalidates my theory. The 'dishonourable blow' on Curze would, say, match House's focus on solving the mystery (winning the war), over hospital rules?
I'm probably rambling now, since it's 1:20am, so I'm going to stop....
Kanluwen wrote:
The Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion had more to do with his lack of understanding when it came to the mind of Luther and those he sent back to Caliban. He sent them back not out of disgust or shame, but because it was necessary.
Those he sent back to Caliban viewed it as an insult.
I haven't read Age of Darkness yet (next on the list), but having just finished the two DA books, how was it necessary? If his intent was for them to protect Caliban, he could have given them some direction, rather than ignoring their communications for 50 years. It seems the Emperor's biggest mistake in microcosm.
We didn't know that Cypher was the title of the Chief Librarian of the Dark Angels until "Fallen Angels".
He wasn't a Librarian, at least not in the psyker sense. He maintained a history of their rituals and traditions.
Then explain why he made a point of ordering the texts seized from the last bastion of one of the opposing orders, which was harboring Beasts, to be destroyed.
And yet he appointed the last surviving member of the Knights of Lupus to be the Lord Cypher. /boggle
That part made no damn sense to me.
Manchu wrote:- I really disagree about the "Word Bearer manufacturing the Heresy." That's giving Lorgar way, way too much credit. In fact, more credit goes to Erebus than Lorgar. In any case, Lorgar is ironically a sideshow everywhere but in First Heretic. The Ruinous Powers are interested in Horus, not Lorgar.
He's a side show even there. He gets led around by Kor Phaeron and Erebus pretty much the entire time. You can almost see his lower lip quivering.
The punch is a throw-away nothing. There are better ways to show Lorgar is a brat, which ADB eventually gets down to. But while he had Lorgar and Guilliman on the same planet, ADB could not seem to resist mussing Guilliman's dignity. It's not really important to the story at hand, or the characters, or the overarching plot.
Lorgar did also pop Guilliman in the chest with his mace in First Heretic.
I was going to say something at the time, but I figured you might know something I don't. However, now that I have read the book, nothing about my prior comments/questions has been invalidated. But I do thank you for your generous non-contribution.
Age of Darkness was a good read for the most part...Iron Within being my fav of the lot bar the ending of Face of Treachery, didn't see that coming so it was cool to see who aided Corax in his escape
But as for Guilliman/Jonson, I think the Lion is just being a bit of a moody emo for not being able to get to Dorn's side in the palace
No doubt about it though that Guilliman is exceptionally egotistical writing a book to demand all legions fight as per his way!
Bring on Fulgrim fighting him and putting him in his place
