It came up over in the Heavy Bolter thread that Autocannons are underpowered too. Discuss ways to fix here.

Edit: The above's been argued about, and shot down, but now it seems the Predator is what really needs a buff.

What?

Auto-cannons are brilliant multi-role heavy weapons, having a high enough strength for damaging Light Armor or monsters while having a decent fire rate of 2 so they can help with hordes.

I think they are fine as they are.

With the exception of IG foot autos, imo they are fine as is

Unless you really want to make Psyflemen dreads and hydras even better

For a bit more background, over in the Heavy Bolter thread, it was acknowledged that the Heavy Bolter needed a boost, but boosting it too much would infringe on the role of the Autocannon. Then I brought up that, for a Tank's main gun(specifically the Predator) the Autocannon is too light.

Here's an idea; The Predator should come with a Twin Linked autocannon, by default.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:For a bit more background, over in the Heavy Bolter thread, it was acknowledged that the Heavy Bolter needed a boost, but boosting it too much would infringe on the role of the Autocannon. Then I brought up that, for a Tank's main gun(specifically the Predator) the Autocannon is too light.

Here's an idea; The Predator should come with a Twin Linked autocannon, by default.

But that's not improving the Autocannon, thats improving the Predator.

As for an auto cannon being too light, it fits of the SOP of the Space Marines, "Hit hard and fast." the auto cannon is small enough to be mounted on a Light/Medium tank, (which the Pred is.) while still packing enough punch.

Well, yeah, I guess so. But really, that doesn't fit with their light tank mounting a twin linked lascannon.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Well, yeah, I guess so. But really, that doesn't fit with their light tank mounting a twin linked lascannon.

Thats just specializing for a dedicated AT role. Again the Lascannon is a lighter weapon than the one found on a Main Battle Tank such as a Russ, in that it can also be man portable. All the Predator is doing is giving it greater mobility and a stable firing platform, as fits with their combat doctrine.

To balance autocannons, given what they are, they should really be AP3. Compare them (S7 AP4, Heavy 2) to Heavy Bolters (S5 AP4, Heavy 3) and Assault Cannons (S6 AP4, Heavy 4). Heavy Bolters are obviously the weakest weapon out of the group. The Assault Cannon is meant to be a high volume type weapon. Basically an M134 Minigun. The Autocannon is basically supposed to be a 25mm Bushmaster. These things are mounted on the Bradley IFV but they also throw them on boats. I guess if you found some massive Ape-person, you could tote this thing around and shoot things with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkewcpsESHc

This thing would AP the gak out of some power armor. Forget AP4, this thing is meant to kill light armored vehicles and even enemy tanks.


To re-balance Hydras, the Hydra Autocannon trades AP for range. Flak isn't known for its armor piercing qualities. Replace the Hydra Flak Gun profile with Range 72", S7, AP5, Heavy 2. Twin linked, of course.

That could work, although an IG Gun line of the things would make Marines rather worried.

Anyone that thinks that Autocannons are bad is in all likelihood bad at the game.

Autocannons are fine. Now, do I think the Predator needs a better gun than an autocannon? Yes, I do. However, the autocannon is fine as is. It's meant to be the ultimate jack of all trades weapon. It's strong enough to take down most vehicles, but it's not as good as a dedicated AT weapon. It's rapid fire enough to be a threat to infantry, but not fast enough to do it better than the dedicated anti infantry weapons. It's a generalist weapon, which is why it's considered so useful for a take all comers lists. It doesn't need to be boosted.

I agree with the above replies. It seems you have beef with the predator, not the autocannon

ph34r wrote:Anyone that thinks that Autocannons are bad is in all likelihood bad at the game.

Nobody incidentally said that. The argument was brought up that if, for some ridiculous reason I cannot fathom, the Heavy Bolter were to be improved upon to make it require actual thought about whether or not to take it in 'competitive' play--then autocannons and assault cannons would for some unknown reason(I seriously do not understand why) need to be buffed to compensate.

It was then brought up by the OP that if heavy bolters are buffed, then autocannons need to be buffed because "It's a Tank's main gun, it should be a bit more powerful than a plasma pistol".
I brought up that the discrepancy is likely caused by the scale of models and the Predator's autocannon being beefed up because who wants a tiny gun on their tank. Someone then brought up the idea of giving Predator autocannons a submunition mode like the Tau railgun and things went up from there.

I don't see any issue with that, mind, but if you're going to claim it's the ammo type--then it would be the same sized shell no matter the mounting.
Sentinel autocannons, Vulture autocannons, Guard autocannons for their HWTs, Riflemen Dreads, Aegis platforms, Hydras etc could all be given these 'variable' shells. Someone brought up a good point about Havoc autocannons potentially making it 'unbalanced' and didn't quite understand the idea of "rebalancing"(as in: if you were to do something like this, you could easily introduce something else to offset the sudden benefit gained by the Havocs and their 4 A/C's).

If it were me? I'd alter Havocs to simply not have the ammo types. They're using Reaper autocannons anyways, they were the predecessor to assault cannons--give them more shots and an assault mode and you've got something unique for CSM.
Give the Imperial autocannons the option to forfeit a turn to 'change ammo types' and go from either a kind of fletchette round(read: submunition) or the standard round for their next shooting turn.

Voila. Fixed autocannon issue.

Kanluwen wrote:

ph34r wrote:Anyone that thinks that Autocannons are bad is in all likelihood bad at the game.

Nobody incidentally said that

Well...

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Autocannons are underpowered too.

ph34r wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ph34r wrote:Anyone that thinks that Autocannons are bad is in all likelihood bad at the game.

Nobody incidentally said that

Well...

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Autocannons are underpowered too.

Nobody really said that in the thread though. It was more people saying that "if Heavy Bolters get a buff like you suggested--then why would I take Autocannons!".

i think taking a turn to switch is a bit much, and no csm do not use reaper autocannons on their havocks, termies dreads and defilers get those, but not csm squads predators or havoks

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:It came up over in the Heavy Bolter thread that Autocannons are underpowered too.

Good god.

They aren't. Please stop this inanity.

inanity? surely you mean insanity

Kanluwen wrote:Nobody really said that in the thread though. It was more people saying that "if Heavy Bolters get a buff like you suggested--then why would I take Autocannons!".

Yeah, but he said literally that, just now. He said exactly that Autocannons are underpowered.

make them AP 3. something firing a hail of 20/30mm armour peircing high expklosive shells would make a mokery of power armour.
power armour is after all nowere neer as good as tank armour and these things are desighned to kill anything upto and including light/med tanks.

hmmm something tells me that game balance would fly out the window on golden fairy wings if this happened

Tyranic Marta wrote:hmmm something tells me that game balance would fly out the window on golden fairy wings if this happened

Pretty much. Esp since the Autocannon only exists for Imperial armies and CSM's. Suddenly half of the armies (loyalists +1 not so loyal anymore) have access to a cheap ap 3 weapon. ANd IG... well Ig would put the middle finger up at long fangs.

master of ordinance wrote:make them AP 3. something firing a hail of 20/30mm armour peircing high expklosive shells would make a mokery of power armour.
power armour is after all nowere neer as good as tank armour and these things are desighned to kill anything upto and including light/med tanks.

Do you realize the effect this would have on, oh say, Hydras? Riflemen dreads? Even IG HWT?

Autocannons would need a massive price increase across the board.

Tyranic Marta wrote:inanity? surely you mean insanity

Inanity

master of ordinance wrote:make them AP 3. something firing a hail of 20/30mm armour peircing high expklosive shells would make a mokery of power armour.
power armour is after all nowere neer as good as tank armour and these things are desighned to kill anything upto and including light/med tanks.

I would love AP3 autocannons. Can you imagine? 75 points for a squad of 3 autocannons that I can twinlink with orders and then just mow down Marines like there's no tmmrw? It'd be a total game breaker, but damn would my Hydras kill scores skyrocket!!

That being said, no it's a game breaking idea. It really is. AP3 is mena to be a slightly rare commodity you have to pay a bit for, and giving people access to cheap heavy weapons that ignore power armor is just wrong.

I still say that autocannons are perfectly fine, you have to remember that the IG can just SPAM autocannons in volumes that make any other faction can't match, and IG are already a pretty damn good codex. I don't think we need the boost.

It might make people put more terrain on the table, since SMs wouldn't be able to wander around in the open with impunity any more.

ChrisWWII wrote:I would love AP3 autocannons. Can you imagine? 75 points for a squad of 3 autocannons that I can twinlink with orders and then just mow down Marines like there's no tmmrw? It'd be a total game breaker, but damn would my Hydras kill scores skyrocket!!

That being said, no it's a game breaking idea. It really is. AP3 is mena to be a slightly rare commodity you have to pay a bit for, and giving people access to cheap heavy weapons that ignore power armor is just wrong.

I still say that autocannons are perfectly fine, you have to remember that the IG can just SPAM autocannons in volumes that make any other faction can't match, and IG are already a pretty damn good codex. I don't think we need the boost.

As a IG player, I take offense to you saying we can just spam auto cannons! I can only get 21 in a platoon.

I do think they need to be AP 3. I was playing a game against CSM and they were just absorbing the rounds like it was nothing. Having SM walk straight into my gun line, kill it, and then keep going is rather disheartening.

-cgmckenzie

AP3 would make Psyflemen dreads gain the ability to shoot 4 twinlinked krak missiles, now there would be no point in the missile launcher option (like anyone took it but still...)

cgmckenzie wrote:I do think they need to be AP 3. I was playing a game against CSM and they were just absorbing the rounds like it was nothing. Having SM walk straight into my gun line, kill it, and then keep going is rather disheartening.

Static gunlines arent the best of tactics and even then IG can scrounge up a ton of melta/plasma that should make marines on foot cower in fear. I think the last thing IG needs is more marine killing abilities.

So get rid of Psyriflemen dreads. Get rid of riflemen dreads for everyone but Dark Angels, in fact.

So now this is more of a select buff, make IG better and everyone else worse off? When did IG need all these buffs again aside from units like Ogryns

kenshin620 wrote:So now this is more of a select buff, make IG better and everyone else worse off? When did IG need all these buffs again aside from units like Ogryns

When did anyone need buffs?

They've never needed one.
The whole point of this is it's a spinoff from another thread, wherein suggestions were made to make Heavy Bolters a more appealing choice for Heavy Weapons Teams and Devastator/Tacticals.
You know, something to try to cut down on the complained about Autocannon/Missile Launcher 'spam'.

But of course, someone cried out that "But if Heavy Bolters get better--than why not my Autocannons!". Things spiraled out from there, and the OP made this thread without really considering the context of the other thread.

If Autocannons were made better--points balancing and availability would have to be taken into consideration. There has to be a give and take, not simply give give give.

IG always needs more buffs! A buff for every soldier I say!!

-cgmckenzie

This is my proposed stat line for Guardsmen

WS:10 BS:10 S:10 T:10 W:10 Init: 10 Sv: 2+/2++



BUt yes buffed autocannons mean psyrifledreads that are deadly, Hydras that are even better, etc. These are all fine if you up the costs, but 75 point Hydras/HWS that can just mow down Marines? I do not like that idea for game balance.

ChrisWWII wrote:This is my proposed stat line for Guardsmen

WS:10 BS:10 S:10 T:10 W:10 Init: 10 Sv: 2+/2++



BUt yes buffed autocannons mean psyrifledreads that are deadly, Hydras that are even better, etc. These are all fine if you up the costs, but 75 point Hydras/HWS that can just mow down Marines? I do not like that idea for game balance.

A:0? could work

Also I think Autocannons should be S:10 AP:1 Heavy100


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and free for every guard squad of 10 men

Are you suggesting that the autocannon should have the option to use blast marker shots or am i just complicating things.

yeah pretty much

Haonn wrote:Are you suggesting that the autocannon should have the option to use blast marker shots or am i just complicating things.

Maybe the flamer template?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[rant] Honestly, this whole thread is ridiculous. The Autocannon is the best value weapon in the current game, it has a decent rate of fire, good strength and AP, great range, and performs the invaluable (in 5th) job of popping transports. Saying the AC needs a face lift is like saying we need to overhaul meltaguns and give them a 72' range. Limitations are there for a reason. [/rant]

1 Autocannons are str 7 NOT 8 like krak missiles.
2 I have now revised the autocannons calibre-if a bolter is 20mm then an auto cannon is about 50mm+. this size of APHE shell hitting you HURTS. even if you are wearing power armour.
3 it is true that watching marines of any sort shrugging of hits from weapons like these hurts moral BADLY.
4 power armour is NO WERE NEAR like tank armour and autocannons are desighned to kill all light and some medium TANKS.
5 I havnt eaten in about 20 hours and if you argue ill get grouchy.
6 NOTE THE NAME. i didnt pick MASTER OF ORDINANCE for nothing. i know my guns better than most of you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guaiwu wrote:

Haonn wrote:Are you suggesting that the autocannon should have the option to use blast marker shots or am i just complicating things.

Maybe the flamer template?



[rant] Honestly, this whole thread is ridiculous. The Autocannon is the best value weapon in the current game, it has a decent rate of fire, good strength and AP, great range, and performs the invaluable (in 5th) job of popping transports. Saying the AC needs a face lift is like saying we need to overhaul meltaguns and give them a 72' range. Limitations are there for a reason. [/rant]

the autocannon is pathetic when compared to the fluff autocannon. in the fluff these things punch through powerarmour like a lascannon through butter wereas in the game an average IG squad containing 3 would struggle to kill more than 1 marine(6 shots 50% hitting for 3 hits 83.3% wounding for 2-3 wounds and the marines save 66.6% of all wounds for maybe 1 wound. this is crap
infact its pathetic. oh and a flamer template would be wrong-if anything a blast template. and even the small one would make an autocannon OP.

master of ordinance wrote:1 Autocannons are str 7 NOT 8 like krak missiles.

They were talking about Grey Knight dreadnoughts who get psybolts, making their autocannons S8.

master of ordinance wrote: it is true that watching marines of any sort shrugging of hits from weapons like these hurts moral BADLY.

So get a gun that kills off Marines then, like a plasma gun, missile launcher or a lascannon.

master of ordinance wrote:

the autocannon is pathetic when compared to the fluff autocannon. in the fluff these things punch through powerarmour like a lascannon through butter wereas in the game an average IG squad containing 3 would struggle to kill more than 1 marine(6 shots 50% hitting for 3 hits 83.3% wounding for 2-3 wounds and the marines save 66.6 of all wounds for maybe 1 wound. this is crap
infact its pathetic. oh and a flamer template would be wrong-if anything a blast template. and even the small one would make an autocannon OP.

And in the fluff Space Marines are much more lethal than on table-top. You can have your autocannons if I can have my AV13 terminators. Autocannons also don't "punch through powerarmour like a lascannon", they do damage, sure, but they're not guaranteed to one-shot power armour, unlike a lascannon. For someone who claims to know his guns, I find that little bit slightly disheartening. Oh, and autocannons aren't ordnance, neither in-game or in real-world terms.

master of ordinance wrote:1 Autocannons are str 7 NOT 8 like krak missiles.

Unless of course you play Grey Knights.

6 NOTE THE NAME. i didnt pick MASTER OF ORDINANCE for nothing. i know my guns better than most of you.

This would be a more credible assertion if you knew that ordinance and ordnance are different words.

master of ordinance wrote:
the autocannon is pathetic when compared to the fluff autocannon. in the fluff these things punch through powerarmour like a lascannon through butter wereas in the game an average IG squad containing 3 would struggle to kill more than 1 marine(6 shots 50% hitting for 3 hits 83.3% wounding for 2-3 wounds and the marines save 66.6% of all wounds for maybe 1 wound. this is crap

It is a game balance issue, not a fluff issue. You may know guns (maybe) but obviously have a limited understanding of the game.

master of ordinance wrote:
infact its pathetic. oh and a flamer template would be wrong-if anything a blast template. and even the small one would make an autocannon OP.

Sorry, I forget to include the sarcasm tag, thought it was obvious from the previous posts but from now on I will include it to pacify the reactionaries.

Oh, and the next time you want to hand down an ordinance, make sure you know what it means.

I'd like to see the predator up-gunned, but not other autocannons. I would propose the following (with a suitable points increase).

Predator Autocannon Str 7 AP4 Heavy 2, Blast

To me that seems more like a tank main gun, even a light/medium one.

The Predator does not need to be upgunned. Period.

The only thing it feasibly needs is a resculpt of the main gun, because it's not a unique autocannon. It's simply an autocannon.

If you want to up gun the predator, give it lascannons.

The auto cannon could do with a bit of something, and I would be willing to play with/against any of these upgrades:

1)AP2
2)Heavy 3
3)cooler models, like a big gatling gun with a crank on the side!!

Of course, once you upgrade it, you need to raise the price by 10pts or so for each model.

-cgmckenzie

Anyone who thinks autocannons are underpowered is a dumb gak.

Fetterkey wrote:<message redacted> --Janthkin

Careful careful, no swearing now.

Ah, guess the autocorrect doesn't know that one. Fixed.

They're fine. Chaos has twin linked ones, which should remain a chaos thing. They wound almost everything on a 2+, and instadeath everything except marines.

cgmckenzie wrote:If you want to up gun the predator, give it lascannons.

The auto cannon could do with a bit of something, and I would be willing to play with/against any of these upgrades:

1)AP2
2)Heavy 3
3)cooler models, like a big gatling gun with a crank on the side!!

Of course, once you upgrade it, you need to raise the price by 10pts or so for each model.

-cgmckenzie

AP2? Really? While heavy 3 would be overpowered enough, AP2 would be picking up game balance, molesting it and setting it on fire before you sacrifice it to Bunny, the Evil Mastermind.

Sorry, meant AP3. My bad, amigos. Getting rid of that armor save from SM would really make my day. But AP2 would be nice too!

-cgmckenzie

Guaiwu wrote:

Haonn wrote:Are you suggesting that the autocannon should have the option to use blast marker shots or am i just complicating things.

Maybe the flamer template?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[rant] Honestly, this whole thread is ridiculous. The Autocannon is the best value weapon in the current game, it has a decent rate of fire, good strength and AP, great range, and performs the invaluable (in 5th) job of popping transports. Saying the AC needs a face lift is like saying we need to overhaul meltaguns and give them a 72' range. Limitations are there for a reason. [/rant]

Guaiwu wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:
the autocannon is pathetic when compared to the fluff autocannon. in the fluff these things punch through powerarmour like a lascannon through butter wereas in the game an average IG squad containing 3 would struggle to kill more than 1 marine(6 shots 50% hitting for 3 hits 83.3% wounding for 2-3 wounds and the marines save 66.6% of all wounds for maybe 1 wound. this is crap

It is a game balance issue, not a fluff issue. You may know guns (maybe) but obviously have a limited understanding of the game.

master of ordinance wrote:
infact its pathetic. oh and a flamer template would be wrong-if anything a blast template. and even the small one would make an autocannon OP.

Sorry, I forget to include the sarcasm tag, thought it was obvious from the previous posts but from now on I will include it to pacify the reactionaries.

Oh, and the next time you want to hand down an ordinance, make sure you know what it means.

Bludbaff wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:1 Autocannons are str 7 NOT 8 like krak missiles.

Unless of course you play Grey Knights.

6 NOTE THE NAME. i didnt pick MASTER OF ORDINANCE for nothing. i know my guns better than most of you.

This would be a more credible assertion if you knew that ordinance and ordnance are different words.

sorry. i was tired and didnt when i wrote this and was also late for a lecture. ive eaten now so if you were hoping for me to get grouchy then your in for a let down. the autocannon is a large calibre cannon that fires a hail of of APHE shells. and i was a little out of it due to no blood sugar so i apolagise for that "i know my guns better than most of you" comment. true i know a LOT about guns and ordnance but that comment was bitchy and uncalled for. as it is i still stand by my AP 3 autocannons as a 50mm cannon should do A LOT. oh and thanks for mentioning the grey knights thing i didnt know.

As a IG player, I take offense to you saying we can just spam auto cannons! I can only get 21 in a platoon.

I do think they need to be AP 3. I was playing a game against CSM and they were just absorbing the rounds like it was nothing. Having SM walk straight into my gun line, kill it, and then keep going is rather disheartening.

-cgmckenzie

ph34r wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:make them AP 3. something firing a hail of 20/30mm armour peircing high expklosive shells would make a mokery of power armour.
power armour is after all nowere neer as good as tank armour and these things are desighned to kill anything upto and including light/med tanks.

Do you realize the effect this would have on, oh say, Hydras? Riflemen dreads? Even IG HWT?

Autocannons would need a massive price increase across the board.

Agreed.

Fix the predator, not the Autocannon.

ACs are a great weapon with two roles to fill on the battlefield. Buffing them or nerfing them would be stupid. They are about as balanced as a weapon can be in 40K.

Back in the day, the Autocannon used to be Str8. (It was also a blast weapon)

I could see a Predator Autocannon being R48" Str8 AP4 Heavy 2, Ordnance

How about giving Predators Plasma Cannon Sponsons? Just saying I love the Heavy Bolter but a Plasma Cannon sponson would be simply amazing!

Lysenis wrote:How about giving Predators Plasma Cannon Sponsons? Just saying I love the Heavy Bolter but a Plasma Cannon sponson would be simply amazing!

Blood angel players rejoice.....

yummmy yummy plasma i like that idea

It seems like everyone agrees that upgrading the autocannon is a bad idea, and that it's a good enough gun already, and the problem lies with the Predator moreso than anything.

If anything, we should change the thread title and start arguing over the Predator and its issues than autocannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sorry. i was tired and didnt when i wrote this and was also late for a lecture. ive eaten now so if you were hoping for me to get grouchy then your in for a let down. the autocannon is a large calibre cannon that fires a hail of of APHE shells. and i was a little out of it due to no blood sugar so i apolagise for that "i know my guns better than most of you" comment. true i know a LOT about guns and ordnance but that comment was bitchy and uncalled for. as it is i still stand by my AP 3 autocannons as a 50mm cannon should do A LOT. oh and thanks for mentioning the grey knights thing i didnt know.

Your grammar. It hurts.

We don't know what an Imperial autocannon is, alot of people assume it's similar to a Bradley's Bushmaster, but even then, power armor essentially turns the wearer into a walking tank, and you don't see Bushmasters taking down MBTs now do you? The AP4 is good, the cannon will blow through even the fanciest carapace armor (and remember, carapace can shrug hits from what is essentiall a full auto RPG launcher), and you have to basically be walking around in a tank to get a chance to survive.

On the whole Predator issue, I think that it should come with a Twin Linked Autocannon.

I'm changing the thread's title to "Predator Discussion"

Alright, my proposed statline for the Predator autocannon is that it should have two ammo types. The Marines are all about flexibility, and reliability so that shouldn't be too insane.

Solid Shot
S: 8
AP: 3
Range: 48"
Heavy 2

High Explosive
S: 4
AP: 5
Range: 48"
Heavy 2, Blast

heres my proposed statline...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSp7CipN1pw&feature=player_embedded

cgmckenzie wrote:Having SM walk straight into my gun line, kill it, and then keep going is rather disheartening.

That is what Space Marines are supposed to do, remember...

ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, my proposed statline for the Predator autocannon is that it should have two ammo types. The Marines are all about flexibility, and reliability so that shouldn't be too insane.

Solid Shot
S: 8
AP: 3
Range: 48"
Heavy 2

High Explosive
S: 4
AP: 5
Range: 48"
Heavy 2, Blast

Ehh thats not an autocannon though, thats two missile launchers

Which, as a tanks main gun, I think the Predator's autocannon should be closer to.

I think Preds would be better if they had autocannon sponsons as a an option. Keep the cost the same as for the lascannon sponsons you would get 6 S7 AP4 shots if you stayed still. I might also give them the option to have 11 rear armor for a points upgrade.

I think a twin-linked autocannon turret and autocannon sponsons would do the trick.

ChrisWWII wrote:Which, as a tanks main gun, I think the Predator's autocannon should be closer to.

Yeah, it's not really a tank, though. It's an up-gunned light armoured vehicle. Leman Russes, Hammerheads and Fire Prisms are tanks, the Predator is a support vehicle with very specialised weapons systems.

Stormcallers I find it heartening to find another fan of Dimitri's 'work'.

Miraclefish wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Which, as a tanks main gun, I think the Predator's autocannon should be closer to.

Yeah, it's not really a tank, though. It's an up-gunned light armoured vehicle. Leman Russes, Hammerheads and Fire Prisms are tanks, the Predator is a support vehicle with very specialised weapons systems.

And a very specialized role. The Predator loadout with autocannon isn't meant to take out tanks--it's an anti-infantry/light armor loadout. If they need something to engage tanks--they'll take HK missiles and lascannon sponsons.

The TL lascannon w/ lascannons is what's meant to take out tanks and other heavily armored vehicles.

Yeah, it's not really a tank, though. It's an up-gunned light armoured vehicle. Leman Russes, Hammerheads and Fire Prisms are tanks, the Predator is a support vehicle with very specialised weapons systems.

It's not a tank, originally it was just like the Bradley and was capable of carrying troops when it first came out, even whirlwinds had troop space at one time. They got rid of the troop capacity for some reason, then a few years later invented the razorback to fill it's role.

It still kept the same weapons though. It always seamed strange that you could upgrade the turret to two las cannons but not two auto cannons.

I wouldn't mind the pred having TL Autocannons myself, but only for a price increase. The dakka pred is cheap enough as it is.

No. Krak Missiles are better than Autocannon shells. And I'd never fire Blast instead with stats like that.

two auto canons, not sure if i like twin linked, would be great for anti air also. Yea you would need a point increase.

ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, my proposed statline for the Predator autocannon is that it should have two ammo types. The Marines are all about flexibility, and reliability so that shouldn't be too insane.

Solid Shot
S: 8
AP: 3
Range: 48"
Heavy 2

High Explosive
S: 4
AP: 5
Range: 48"
Heavy 2, Blast

So you are proposing arming predators with a cyclone missile launcher? Cool idea! But don't call it an Autocannon.

Why not? It can have the stats of a cyclone, but just firing shells like a tank does.

That being said, I think that the Predator is meant to be a cross of an IFV and a MBT. It's clearly not an IFV, that's a Razorback or a Chimera. It's not a MBT, that job is filled by the Leman Russ. So, it's a kind of cross in a way...which is why I gave it the stats that I did. It's got lots of firepower, but it's not as shooty as the Leman Russ.

It's a light tank, with light weaponsry, although I agree the autocannon needs just a little bit more kick.
I'm liking the idea of AP3, perhaps a slight strength increase as well, but nothing more.

personally i like the idea of leaving the guns alone in terms of statline wise and just gving it more, ie take the autocannon sponsons and tl turret

Nnnno. Autocannon sponsons don't make much sense for a light tank like that.

Just increase its points by five or ten and give it a TL autocannon, then adjust the TLLC upgrade accordingly.

LASCANNON SPONSONS

Lascannons are still lighter than autocannons as far as actual weight and size goes.

sure

what im trying to get at however is that like some peole have said here the main cannon autocannon is MASSIVE compared with the manportable version, theres nothing to say that a autocannon sponson couldnt be scaled to fit?

That's merely because it'd look silly on the tank otherwise, especially now that it's a tank instead of an IFV.

my point still stands

games workshop has to make a descision when building its statlines and models
pick one of the following

epic weapons
realistic to fluff weapons
game balance weapons

inevitably they pick the third option thus i see no issue with GW making this pattern available

I see no issue with giving a Predator the LR Exterminator TL AC. It would take the role away from Rifleman dreds, but thats ok, they always seemed a little funny used that way.

Guaiwu wrote:I see no issue with giving a Predator the LR Exterminator TL AC. It would take the role away from Rifleman dreds, but thats ok, they always seemed a little funny used that way.

I do. No way in hlel is the predator capable of handling that heavy weapon.

If you can mount 2 assault cannon, I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to mount 2 standard auto cannon? Not sure about the exterminator though, but maybe.

The exterminator cannon is equivalent in size and weight to the Leman Russ Battle Cannon and similar equipment. Assault cannons are infantry weapons. Large ones to be sure, but still infantry weapons.

A pair of autocannons is fine, give it twin-linked and raise its price by ten-fifteen or so points. But the Exterminator Autocannon is a different thing entirely.

Melissia wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:I see no issue with giving a Predator the LR Exterminator TL AC. It would take the role away from Rifleman dreds, but thats ok, they always seemed a little funny used that way.

I do. No way in hlel is the predator capable of handling that heavy weapon.

And yet a Rhino chassis can hold a demolisher cannon? What about the Baal Predators twin-linked assault cannon? thats pretty heavy too. And don't say the AC is heavier, CSM termies sport the Reaper AC, which is basically just a short ranged version, CSM Havocs have AC's, Sentinels, Guardsmen, this is not by any means a tank only weapon. Also, this would disallow twin dred AC's, a tank would have much more room for fitting projectile based weapon systems than a highly sophisticated walker. Giving it a 'sitting on a tank' upgrade would be fine, probably unneeded as you need to consider the role it fills, but fine none-the-less.
I do agree that LC is a lighter weapon, but only because of energy storage density, also LC should have no recoil (which is always why I find Sci-Fi lasers hilarious), the weapon itself is pretty much equivalent sized though.
I kind of like the idea of fitting a Cyclone ML to it though.

Guaiwu wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:I see no issue with giving a Predator the LR Exterminator TL AC. It would take the role away from Rifleman dreds, but thats ok, they always seemed a little funny used that way.

I do. No way in hlel is the predator capable of handling that heavy weapon.

And yet a Rhino chassis can hold a demolisher cannon?

In case you weren't paying attention (you weren't), the demolisher cannon is not housed in a turret complex, but instead takes up a massive amount of the vehicle itself.

Meanwhile the Leman Russ Demolisher? It has that demolisher on its TURRET. Leman Russ tanks are just that big compared to the lightweight Rhino chassis.

What about the Baal Predators twin-linked assault cannon? thats pretty heavy too.

No it's not.

Also, this would disallow twin dred AC's

No it wouldn't. Dreadnoughts are taller and have more surface area on which to put weapons than a Rhino chassis. Their arms are basically twin turrets to begin with rather than one single one, which can either hold a melee weapon or a ranged one. The Dreadnoughts don't have an Exterminator Autocannon. They have one turret on the left which has a twin-linked autocannon. Then another turret on the right, which also has a twin-linked autocannon. Both of these weapons are supported by a very heavy, slow, and sturdy walker.

Heavy, slow, and sturdy are three things which the Predator is not.

a tank would have much more room for fitting projectile based weapon systems than a highly sophisticated walker.

No it wouldn't, for the reason above.

compare the size of a dreadnought to the pred, the thing is tiny, if a dread can hold a tl auto cannon then a pred can, if the thing can hold two then i dont see why the pred cant have sponsons, same number of guns on a BIGGER chassis

First off:
Leman Russ Battle Tank: Weight 58 tons, Length 7.2m, Height 4.8m
Dreadnought: Weight 12 tons, Length 2.2m, Height 3.7m
Predator: Weight 44 tons, Length 6.6m, height 4.4m
Source: Imperial Armour

Melissia wrote:Meanwhile the Leman Russ Demolisher? It has that demolisher on its TURRET. Leman Russ tanks are just that big compared to the lightweight Rhino chassis.

I am not wanting a Demolisher cannon in the turret.

Melissia wrote:

What about the Baal Predators twin-linked assault cannon? thats pretty heavy too.

No it's not.

Why? because it is on Terminators? The Assault cannon is not available to ANY standard troops in the game, that should tell you something. Besides, the ammo storage for such a high rate-of-fire weapon would be huge, which is why you need to attach it to something that can carry that much ammo. The AC obviously doesn't have that problem or troops wouldn't be taking it to the field.
Or you could simply look at models/pictures, and could easily see how much more substantial two, multi-barreled cannons are compared to a single barreled rifle type cannon.

Melissia wrote:

Also, this would disallow twin dred AC's

No it wouldn't. Dreadnoughts are taller and have more surface area on which to put weapons than a Rhino chassis. Their arms are basically twin turrets to begin with rather than one single one, which can either hold a melee weapon or a ranged one. The Dreadnoughts don't have an Exterminator Autocannon. They have one turret on the left which has a twin-linked autocannon. Then another turret on the right, which also has a twin-linked autocannon. Both of these weapons are supported by a very heavy, slow, and sturdy walker.

Look at above weight profiles, the dread is LIGHT (less than a third the weight of a Pred), its not even as tall. So any argument about surface area is ridiculous. You also have to consider the sophistication of the systems needed in a dread would take up much of the internal space in its relatively small chassis, whereas we are told how efficient and lean a Rhino chassis is.
Yet the Dread can take 2 TL AC...
Just for info sake, a Sentinel comes in at 4tons and can take an AC ..... Golly gosh!

Melissia wrote:Heavy, slow, and sturdy are three things which the Predator is not.

Dread top speed 8kph, Pred 68kph, so I'll give you that one. Dread 12 tons, Pred 44 tons ..... not winning here. As for Sturdy, just look at their in-game armor values. To be fair, the Dread does have a slightly heavier superstructure, but that would just mean even less room to support weaponry.

Melissia wrote:

a tank would have much more room for fitting projectile based weapon systems than a highly sophisticated walker.

No it wouldn't, for the reason above.

Yeah, for these 'reasons' (and because of Thunderwolf riders) your argument is invalid.

And yet, the dreadnought STILL has more surface space for its weapons. Much fo the space on the Predator is taken up by its motivation, IE, its tracks and etc, and the Predator is crewed by three, instead of the Dread, which is crewed by one whom is mind-linked to the walker.

This is pretty much the reason why the dread has two TL heavy weapons instead of one. For that matter, even with sponsons added in to a Predator Annihilator, the dread still has just as many weapons on it as the predator (both of them having four total).

The assault cannon is rarely used because it, itself, is rare . If it was merely limited to vehicles you'd also see it on Guard vehicles too, but you don't. Besides, at 24" range, and being Heavy, it's not very useful on infantry to begin with (the same problem the Multi-Melta has).

so why cant we add the sponsons to the tank??????

Autocannons are underpowered?!?! WTF??

If you target infantry, you will near-on ALWAYS wound on a 2+. It is still AP4. It's not like Ap3 is the baseline. of the armies our there, hwo many have a 3+ save?

SM
GK
CSM
Necron

So unless i am mistaken that still the majority of the Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG, Ork and Deamon armies out in the cold with no armoru save against a cheap weapon which wounds on a 2+ and has a range of 48".

Ummmmmm. Which bit of this is underpowered?

Granted, it be nice if it was Ap3. But it would also be nice if Lascannnons were triple linked, had the Melta rule and caused instant death. Doesn't mean its a good idea.

Praxiss wrote:If you target infantry, you will near-on ALWAYS wound on a 2+. It is still AP4. It's not like Ap3 is the baseline. of the armies our there, hwo many have a 3+ save?

SM
GK
CSM
Necron

Necrons are soon to go to a 4+ save, which makes the AC even better.

Also, you missed SoB

Doh, knew I missed something.

Also a suit-heavy Tau army can have a heck of a lot of 3+ saves on the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guaiwu wrote:Necrons are soon to go to a 4+ save, which makes the AC even better.

This is still unsubstantiated rumour and hearsay, don't forget.

Melissia wrote:And yet, the dreadnought STILL has more surface space for its weapons. Much fo the space on the Predator is taken up by its motivation, IE, its tracks and etc, and the Predator is crewed by three, instead of the Dread, which is crewed by one whom is mind-linked to the walker.

This is pretty much the reason why the dread has two TL heavy weapons instead of one. For that matter, even with sponsons added in to a Predator Annihilator, the dread still has just as many weapons on it as the predator (both of them having four total).

The assault cannon is rarely used because it, itself, is rare . If it was merely limited to vehicles you'd also see it on Guard vehicles too, but you don't. Besides, at 24" range, and being Heavy, it's not very useful on infantry to begin with (the same problem the Multi-Melta has).

Don't forget that ammo hoppers/power generators/fuel tanks for the weapons tends to take up space inside a battle tank, the dread houses it's supply within its arms.

I still love the idea of Plasma Cannon Sponsons. This way EVERYONE gets what they ask for one way or another.

You now have blast at AP2, S7 sponsons. See everyone is happy. Lets say a 45pt upgrade cost for the fire power? It has shorter range but it is the perfect between a Lascannon sponson and a Autocannon sponson.

As for the Autocannon turret, I will go over it one more time.

It is S7 AP4 Heavy 2 versus the Twin Linked Lascannon's S9 AP2 Heavy 1 Linked. There is a reason it gets 2 shots.
It trades strength for the capability to double tap. Everyone should know the rules for Doubletapping right?

I think that the predator should get a TL autocannon. if they can TL the LC, why can’t they TL the AC?

Lysenis wrote:I still love the idea of Plasma Cannon Sponsons. This way EVERYONE gets what they ask for one way or another.

You now have blast at AP2, S7 sponsons. See everyone is happy. Lets say a 45pt upgrade cost for the fire power? It has shorter range but it is the perfect between a Lascannon sponson and a Autocannon sponson.

The Imperial Guard pays 40 points for plascans at BS3. I'd say that if Marines were to get plascan sponsons, it'd be closer to a 50-60 point upgrade.

Guaiwu wrote:

Praxiss wrote:If you target infantry, you will near-on ALWAYS wound on a 2+. It is still AP4. It's not like Ap3 is the baseline. of the armies our there, hwo many have a 3+ save?

SM
GK
CSM
Necron

Necrons are soon to go to a 4+ save, which makes the AC even better.

4+ save base for the warriors, who are going down in cost and getting a sort of invulnerable save.

So yeah.

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Guard pays 40 points for plascans at BS3. I'd say that if Marines were to get plascan sponsons, it'd be closer to a 50-60 point upgrade.

Agreed, should be priced near the lascannon price. 45 is dirt cheap for non overheating BS4 plasma cannons. It'd be even more expensive for BA

If you really wanted to improve game balance without screwing with weapon profiles, wargear, or models, then just make Predators available in squadrons.

3 Dakka preds is 255 pts, but eats up 3 HS slots. Make them squadronable (1-3/squadron), along with Whirlwinds, and you'll see people running them.

Tank squading though is a bit of a liability since you can get wrecked faster, but then again preds are also cheaper than russes

Although BA Pred squads might be a powerful combination. (shudders at the thought of 9 outflanking Baals)

Warmastersolon wrote:I think that the predator should get a TL autocannon. if they can TL the LC, why can’t they TL the AC?

Because the AC ammo takes up more space than the batteries required to power a lascannon?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Warmastersolon wrote:I think that the predator should get a TL autocannon. if they can TL the LC, why can’t they TL the AC?

Because the AC ammo takes up more space than the batteries required to power a lascannon?

Seriously??

The autocannon is somewhere between a 40-50mm cannon. The ammo is not that big. And since when do tanks carry thousands upon thousands of rounds? it would carry a few hundred rounds for the main gun of that calibre. Which would hardly fill a rhino chassis that can stuff TEN power armored marines inside!

I am sorry but I still haven't seen a valid argument against a TL autocannon turret, when speaking of fluff/mechanics.

SickSix wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Warmastersolon wrote:I think that the predator should get a TL autocannon. if they can TL the LC, why can’t they TL the AC?

Because the AC ammo takes up more space than the batteries required to power a lascannon?

Seriously??

The autocannon is somewhere between a 40-50mm cannon. The ammo is not that big. And since when do tanks carry thousands upon thousands of rounds? it would carry a few hundred rounds for the main gun of that calibre. Which would hardly fill a rhino chassis that can stuff TEN power armored marines inside!

Stop calling it a tank.

Seriously. It's not. The "tank" for Space Marines is the Land Raider. The Predator is a mobile firebase when Devastators would be impractical.

The Predator variant with Autocannon/HBs is used for killing infantry and light vehicles. They can swap out the HBs for Lascannons if they think the mission profile will demand it.
The Predator variant with Lascannons all around is used for killing tanks. They can swap the sponsons for Heavy Bolters for close in defense if they think, again, the mission profile will demand it.

The reason the autocannon ammo is said to 'take up more space' than the batteries required to power the lascannon is that the autocannon also has an automated ammunition feeder so that it can maintain a constant stream of fire.
The lascannons do not have such a thing.

I am sorry but I still haven't seen a valid argument against a TL autocannon turret, when speaking of fluff/mechanics.

Other than it being implausible to have that kind of ammunition in a 'tank' that isn't really a tank and that is crewed by 3 of those 'power armored marines'.

It is a light tank. It is not an IFV because it has no troop capacity. It is not a scout vehicle. It is not artillery. It's a light tank.

I think you don't really have an idea of how the mechanics of the system work. The auto-feed system would not be very large or heavy, as you seem to think it would be. And it is a Heavy 2, not Heavy 6. So I am not sure where this constant stream of fire idea is coming from. It is a slightly upsized 40mm BOFORS cannon as shown in the linked video on page two of this thread.

The Land Raider is not a tank. The Land Raider is a Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier. The Predator is, by definition, a tank. It has "Tank" in its profile. The Codex, along with all other associated materials, call it a tank. Repeatedly. If memory serves, the Codex actually calls it "The Main Battle Tank of the Space Marine Forces" (My codex is 60 miles away, can't look it up.)

Now, we know the Predator is built on the chassis of the Rhino. Take a look at the Dreadnought, though. It appears to only store ammunition in its arm. Look at the turret of the Predator. The Predator's turret is about three times the size of the Dreadnought's arm. That's plenty of room for ammunition in the turret alone.

Also factoring in the space vacated by taking out the transport capacity, there's plenty of room. Let's assume that the Predator has a crew of three; one gunner, one driver, and one commander. The Rhino has a crew of two, and can carry ten marines, for a total of twelve in there. Instead, we have three. That's nine marines worth of volume where you could fit ammunition. Say we give two-thirds of that to Autocannon shells, and one third to Heavy Bolter shells. That's plenty of Heavy Bolter shots for a single engagement. And more than enough Autocannon shells for a whole lot of engagements.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:The Land Raider is not a tank. The Land Raider is a Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier. The Predator is, by definition, a tank. It has "Tank" in its profile. The Codex, along with all other associated materials, call it a tank. Repeatedly. If memory serves, the Codex actually calls it "The Main Battle Tank of the Space Marine Forces" (My codex is 60 miles away, can't look it up.)

Now, we know the Predator is built on the chassis of the Land Raider. Take a look at the Dreadnought, though. It appears to only store ammunition in its arm. Look at the turret of the Predator. The Predator's turret is about three times the size of the Dreadnought's arm. That's plenty of room for ammunition in the turret alone.

Also factoring in the space vacated by taking out the transport capacity, there's plenty of room. Let's assume that the Predator has a crew of three; one gunner, one driver, and one commander. The Rhino has a crew of two, and can carry ten marines, for a total of twelve in there. Instead, we have three. That's nine marines worth of volume where you could fit ammunition. Say we give two-thirds of that to Autocannon shells, and one third to Heavy Bolter shells. That's plenty of Heavy Bolter shots for a single engagement. And more than enough Autocannon shells for a whole lot of engagements.

sorry to nitpick but i think you mean chassis of the rhino, just so's that people dont get confused aye?

Yeah, space clearly can't be the issue given that an autocannon wouldn't carry more than a few hundred rounds per barrel. Even assuming an extra 50% volume over a 40mm grenade you could still stick in 144 shells per cubic foot. So that's not much of an issue. The autoloader, given that it can fit on a Dreadnought's arm doesn't take up much space at all so that can't be the issue. Thus there isn't any really reason not to have sponson mounted autocannons.

Another option, which could also work would be assault cannon sponsons. Given that we know those are compact and that ammo for them is man portable they should easily be able to pack a pair on the Predator with an autocannon on top they would have long range capability combined with great up close firepower.

Make the assault cannon sponsons a 60 point upgrade and suddenly you're getting 8 S6 Rending shots, and 2 S7 shots for 165 points which might get people to take the Pred over rifleman dreads and the like. Of course the short range and the fact that you can't fire when moving would still make things interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyranic Marta wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:The Land Raider is not a tank. The Land Raider is a Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier. The Predator is, by definition, a tank. It has "Tank" in its profile. The Codex, along with all other associated materials, call it a tank. Repeatedly. If memory serves, the Codex actually calls it "The Main Battle Tank of the Space Marine Forces" (My codex is 60 miles away, can't look it up.)

Now, we know the Predator is built on the chassis of the Land Raider. Take a look at the Dreadnought, though. It appears to only store ammunition in its arm. Look at the turret of the Predator. The Predator's turret is about three times the size of the Dreadnought's arm. That's plenty of room for ammunition in the turret alone.

Also factoring in the space vacated by taking out the transport capacity, there's plenty of room. Let's assume that the Predator has a crew of three; one gunner, one driver, and one commander. The Rhino has a crew of two, and can carry ten marines, for a total of twelve in there. Instead, we have three. That's nine marines worth of volume where you could fit ammunition. Say we give two-thirds of that to Autocannon shells, and one third to Heavy Bolter shells. That's plenty of Heavy Bolter shots for a single engagement. And more than enough Autocannon shells for a whole lot of engagements.

sorry to nitpick but i think you mean chassis of the rhino, just so's that people dont get confused aye?

Umm, no, the Predators turret is larger than a dreadnought's arm by between 2 and 4 times. I just checked a chaos plasma arm with a Predator autocannon turret.

no i mean with the fact that he said "Predator is built on the chassis of the Land Raider." sorry i should have made that clearer

Clearly with my previous post and those above there is absolutely no basis to the 'it won't fit' argument.

Time to come up with something else naysayers.

Yeah, I need to hire a proofreader or something.

On Assault Cannon Sponsons: No. Absolutely not. You know why? Because there's the Blood Angels' Baal Predator, already. Besides Fast, there'd be no point to it.

What I think the Predator should be:

BS: 4 Armor: F 13 S: 11 R: 10

Wargear: Twin Linked Autocannon(Turret Mounted)

Cost: 60 Points

Upgrades

Replace the Twin Linked Autocannon with

A Twin Linked Assault Cannon: +15 Points
A Flamestorm Cannon: +20 Points
A Twin Linked Lascannon: +25 Points
A Plasma Cannon: +30 Points

Take Heavy Bolter Sponsons for 25 points
...or Autocannon Sponsons for 45 Points
...or Twin Linked Plasma Gun Sponsons for 50 Points
...or Lascannon Sponsons for 60 Points

(Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter, Hunter Killer missiles, and the like, are unchanged.)

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Yeah, I need to hire a proofreader or something.



What I think the Land Raider should be:

You mean predator

I'm not sure though that everyone should get Baal preds sans the speed though

*editting*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Yeah, I need to hire a proofreader or something.

On Assault Cannon Sponsons: No. Absolutely not. You know why? Because there's the Blood Angels' Baal Predator, already. Besides Fast, there'd be no point to it.

What I think the Predator should be:

BS: 4 Armor: F 13 S: 11 R: 10

Wargear: Twin Linked Autocannon(Turret Mounted)

Cost: 85 Points

Upgrades

Replace the Twin Linked Autocannon with

A Twin Linked Assault Cannon: +15 Points
A Flamestorm Cannon: +20 Points
A Twin Linked Lascannon: +25 Points
A Plasma Cannon: +30 Points

Take Heavy Bolter Sponsons for 25 points
...or Autocannon Sponsons for 45 Points
...or Twin Linked Plasma Gun Sponsons for 50 Points
...or Lascannon Sponsons for 60 Points

(Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter, Hunter Killer missiles, and the like, are unchanged.)

The above shows what my take on it. Leave the flamer turrets to the IG and the assault cannons to the BA. I have also changed my mind on autocannon sponsons as well. Leave it as the maingun.

I would also like to see a pintle/copula mounted Multi-melta for +25/30 points. I just think it looks sexy on the LRs.

Regarding the volume discussion, we'll have to remember that the Predator is more heavily armoured than a Rhino. As such, I imagine that it has a more powerful engine to propel it. That could lead to a loss in quite a bit of space.

Predators have 2 crew though, freeing up some more space.

hurr hurr hurr

rhinos also have transport capacity ten men in power armour

somehow i think that that translates into more space

10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Both vehicles have exact same speed stats. In fact, since the Blood Angels could tweak them both identically, they probably have the same engine.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Considering that a Rhino without cargo weighs 30 tonnes while a Predator weighs 66 tonnes, I'd say there's quite a significant difference. The Predator could simply have two engines combined into one or something to cope with the weight, which also explains how the Blood Angels managed to boost it's effectiveness.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Considering that a Rhino without cargo weighs 30 tonnes while a Predator weighs 66 tonnes, I'd say there's quite a significant difference. The Predator could simply have two engines combined into one or something to cope with the weight, which also explains how the Blood Angels managed to boost it's effectiveness.

Lexicanum is wrong with 66 tonnes, IA volume 2 states 44 tonnes.. which is more realistic anyway, considering Leman Russ Tanks weigh in at ~ 60 Tonnes ( IA Volume 1) and Land Raiders aroung 72 Tonnes (IA Volume 2)

motorhead1945 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Considering that a Rhino without cargo weighs 30 tonnes while a Predator weighs 66 tonnes, I'd say there's quite a significant difference. The Predator could simply have two engines combined into one or something to cope with the weight, which also explains how the Blood Angels managed to boost it's effectiveness.

Lexicanum is wrong with 66 tonnes, IA volume 2 states 44 tonnes.. which is more realistic anyway, considering Leman Russ Tanks weigh in at ~ 60 Tonnes ( IA Volume 1) and Land Raiders aroung 72 Tonnes (IA Volume 2)

Hmm, I'll take your word for it, but they're listing IA2 as their source.

Well, in my chaos army I used to used predators but found them underwhelming.

I think the way to fix them is to let you take them in squadrons.

You see, especially for CSM but also for SM, the heavy support slots contain some of the most powerful units in the codex, and you can't really justify giving up the slots. For example, obliterators are more versatile and potentially more mobile (whilst firing), plus they're harder to kill and stop firing. Preds are easy to stun, and although they're cheap in points, they take up a valuable slot that you could spend on oblits or defilers or land raiders or vindicators, all of which are better heavy support than the pred.

210 for a squadron that is immune to shake and stun (that's right, squadrons are immune to shake and stun aren't they?) that could put out 6 str 7 ap 4 shots every turn would be much harder to stop. And more comparable to 3 obliterators, who are 225.

lunarman wrote:
210 for a squadron that is immune to shake and stun (that's right, squadrons are immune to shake and stun aren't they?) that could put out 6 str 7 ap 4 shots every turn would be much harder to stop. And more comparable to 3 obliterators, who are 225.

Stun is downgraded to Shaken. Not immune.

Really we could just give every tank in the iom every gun in the iom and we could all be happy that we all now play guard.

Preds dont need to be upgraded but i have wondered why we see so little of land radiers with mounted weapons.

pred = rino with big guns
??? = land radier with big guns?

they do exist but only here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/LAND-RAIDER-ACHILLES-COMPLETE-KIT.html

and there serposed to be rare.

The only missing neache is that their is nothing to effectivly fill the gap of anti swarm. an auto cannon would be good agenst a unit the size of sm but if your getting swarmed, the only tanks you can use are the wirlwind and the vindi. you dont want to use a vindi on a swarm when you could pie plate a nice tank or a unit of termies and i dont know why anyone would use a wirlwind. (what are their stats again?) The best answer would be assaultcannons imo. why cant preds have these?

Ledabot wrote:
The only missing neache is that their is nothing to effectivly fill the gap of anti swarm. an auto cannon would be good agenst a unit the size of sm but if your getting swarmed, the only tanks you can use are the wirlwind and the vindi. you dont want to use a vindi on a swarm when you could pie plate a nice tank or a unit of termies and i dont know why anyone would use a wirlwind. (what are their stats again?) The best answer would be assaultcannons imo. why cant preds have these?

The Land Raider Redeemer would like a chat with you, as would the Land Speeder Typhoon. The Thunderfire Cannon also called and said he couldn't come, but he sounded pissed too.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

motorhead1945 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Considering that a Rhino without cargo weighs 30 tonnes while a Predator weighs 66 tonnes, I'd say there's quite a significant difference. The Predator could simply have two engines combined into one or something to cope with the weight, which also explains how the Blood Angels managed to boost it's effectiveness.

Lexicanum is wrong with 66 tonnes, IA volume 2 states 44 tonnes.. which is more realistic anyway, considering Leman Russ Tanks weigh in at ~ 60 Tonnes ( IA Volume 1) and Land Raiders aroung 72 Tonnes (IA Volume 2)

Hmm, I'll take your word for it, but they're listing IA2 as their source.

IA2 definitely states 44 tons, have it right here in front of me! (didn't buy it, came from a guy who quit playing years ago)

Actually, the Rhino chassis is powered by 4 engines, each of which is singly capably of keeping it going, or be it at a reduced speed. The extra weight on a Pred does have it moving slower than the Rhino, but not by much. As for the armor taking up more room, Preds armor is only 5mm thicker than a Rhino's, (not sure how that extends to two points in the rules, but whatever)

Imperial Armour is notoriously stupid in its comparison of armor platings. I tend to ignore it, unless you want to think that Land Raiders have less effective armor than an Abrams.

Melissia wrote:Imperial Armour is notoriously stupid in its comparison of armor platings. I tend to ignore it, unless you want to think that Land Raiders have less effective armor than an Abrams.

Considering that 'long rod penetrators' (the main anti tank weapon used in tank-to-tank warfare) seem to be rare in the 40K universe, it could probably get away with it. Also, against these type of weapons the steel equivalent in pretty much meaningless, hardness is more important. Although, yes, as you say, if going by this measurement a LR's armor is much worse than an Abrams, and even worse than a WWII Tiger.

Even hardness is less important. The HEAT and APFSDS rounds can easily penetrate any amount of armor you can reasonably put on a tank, meaning that most armor today is far, FAR more complicated than most people realize.

Actually the Leman Russ has better armor than either the Tiger or the King Tiger. Forge World isn't THAT incompetant. The problem is that Forge World is full of WW2 buffs, so when they wrote up the armor ratings, they just threw out big impressive numbers, that dwarfed anything things in WW2 had. The problem was that none of them thought to research what modern AT weapons could do...

Ah 40k weaponry, sometimes it is quite silly. After all bolter shells are tipped with hard water

Methinks this thread is slowly getting off topic though

kenshin620 wrote:Ah 40k weaponry, sometimes it is quite silly. After all bolter shells are tipped with hard water

Methinks this thread is slowly getting off topic though

Deuterium isn't water, just FYI.

Doesn't mean tipping bolters with 'depleted deuterium' makes any sense.

I mean hell, at least heavy water has SOME significant mass.

Actually deuterium could make sense as part of the bolter... if it was part of the explosive element instead of the tip.

Melissia wrote:Actually deuterium could make sense as part of the bolter... if it was part of the explosive element instead of the tip.

Thermo-nuclear rounds for bolters? Sign me up!

im having trouble figuring out whether you agree with me?

What I agree with is a TLAC turret, myself. Mostly for balance reasons rather than fluff ones. Bump the cost up five to fifteen points, compensate TLLC turret's cost down the same amount of points, and the predator is fine.

TLAC Upgrade for Dreadnought: 10 Points

Really, I think upping the Pred's base cost by 65 and giving it a TLAC would be fine.

In the strange and wonderful world of 40k, ap6 can blow up tanks. really it doent need to penertrate to blow up the tank. it just needs to hit hard. the autocannon is an example of this. its ap4 s6.

a sm living through an autocannon shot is like a space mariene getting hit by a train. he gets hit, bounces a few feet but makes his 3+ and gets up and starts shooting you again.

lawls, thats assuming you can find an ap6 weapon

let alone an ap6 weapon with enough strength to pop a tank

but it would work. i edited cos backspace desided to pull me back a few pages instead of helping me fix tipos. lol

your quite right it would work

Tyranic Marta wrote:lawls, thats assuming you can find an ap6 weapon

let alone an ap6 weapon with enough strength to pop a tank

Heavy stubber aimed at the side of an open topped, AV10 vehicle like a Basilisk's side. 6 to pen gets you a glance, 6 on the damage table, -2 for glancing, +1 for the target being opentopped, and you've got yourself a wrecked tank.

Ledabot wrote:the autocannon is an example of this. its ap4 s6.

It's S7 AP4, not S6.

Tyranic Marta wrote:lawls, thats assuming you can find an ap6 weapon

let alone an ap6 weapon with enough strength to pop a tank

Multilasers are S6 AP6.

They are often used with scout sentinels to go for rear armor hits.

*shrug* i dont play against alot of guard. The only time we ever see anything worse than AP 4 is on pulse rifles and bolter equivalents

Lysenis wrote:How about giving Predators Plasma Cannon Sponsons? Just saying I love the Heavy Bolter but a Plasma Cannon sponson would be simply amazing!

true. and it would also tie in with epic 40000. i posses predators with plasmacannon sponsons in epic scale

A predator with TLPlasCan and PlasCan sponsons is fine to me . As long as you pay for it an appropriate price.

TLPlascan Turret: 45 Points

Plascan Sponsons: 80 Points

That sound good?

Suggestion: Autocannon 48" Heavy 2. S4 AP6 small blast.
If the pin hole is directly over a vehicle S7 AP4.

Other suggestion is that any blast or large blast weapon that actually penetrates a vehicle, gets the +1 modifier currently reserved for AP1. Rather than the destructive force of the power of the round, it is a rating of the destructive nature of a contained blast effect.

So what, you want to make Leman Russ tanks even MORE powerful?

Sure. The upside is it is making autocannons and plasma cannons more powerful also.

Things which the Guard have plenty of. Plascan sponsons on Leman Russ tanks are already quite popular (due to vehicles not suffering Gets Hot!). But I was also talking about the LRBT. For a mere 150 points, you'd effectively get an S8 AP1 Ordnance weapon if it hits a vehicle directly, compared to now, where it's merely S8 AP3 ordnance. That would be a notable buff. I wouldn't complain about a buff to sentinel autocannons and plasma cannons, to be sure, but the heavy support options really don't need that kind of buff.

Why don't Power Weapons have the +1 Damage boost?

i thik you mean strength and its because that would make frost weapons obselete

Making AC blast is silly, it fires bullets, not grenades.

bullets not grenades huh? The fact that those "bullets" are filled with High explosive means nothing to you??

cmon, the bullets ARE grenades

why not just make em bigger?

Because then it's not an autocannon, but something else.

Boltguns also fire explosive rounds, doesn't mean they deserve a blast.

sure, but thats because the gun cant take a caliber bullet big enough for a decent explosion, and dont try to tell me the Autocannon is too small as well, if modern day peoples can create the HE 50mm grenade im sure the 40000 peoples could create a "blast" shot for the Autocannon, which as i understand it is about 50cal, which is about 60mm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bolter = 30mm rounds (roughly)

modern day HE grenades = 50mm

Autocannon = 60mm (roughly)

Tyranic Marta wrote:sure, but thats because the gun cant take a caliber bullet big enough for a decent explosion,

Boltgun = .75 cal, roughly 20mm.
Heavy Bolter = 1.00 cal, roughly 30mm.

Autocannons don't have a fragmentation effect, therefor they have no blast. They are also not ludicrously high explosive like the Battle Cannon.

Tyranic Marta wrote:bullets not grenades huh? The fact that those "bullets" are filled with High explosive means nothing to you??

cmon, the bullets ARE grenades

why not just make em bigger?

The Ac Fires mass-reactive, high explosive ammunition, much the same as the Bolters but of a bigger caliber. these are high velocity rounds, and would work in a similar fashion to HEAT ammo in modern warfare, or basically a high velocity, smaller caliber, krak missile (which is worse than just a straight rod at penetrating tanks, but anyway). A blast shell would be of a much bigger caliber than the AC shells, also, they would fire at a slower rate. The autocannon is just not designed for 'blast type' ammunition, or to take on those types of targets.

If you want a blast weapon just suggest a missile launcher on a Pred, or a Plasma cannon as has been suggested before (I like this idea too). There is no need to go modifying a weapon in silly ways to get to effect you can get with another weapon.

Solution for Blast Weapon talk: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers for Predator turret weapon. Deathwind Missile Launcher Sponsons.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Solution for Blast Weapon talk: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers for Predator turret weapon. Deathwind Missile Launcher Sponsons.

A Typhoon or Cyclone missile launcher is Heavy 2.

sure cause chaos can take any of those options



Automatically Appended Next Post:
what is done has to be good for all factions

Tyranic Marta wrote:sure cause chaos can take any of those options



Automatically Appended Next Post:
what is done has to be good for all factions

Chaos can take a havoc launcher, which is a different thing. Besides, what is done for marines and what is done for Chaos should be different, for instance Chaos does not have the Annihilator pattern (unless you are playing the Dawn of War computer game) since this was constructed after the heresy. What would be good for Chaos would be some weird daemonic weapon options. Removing them further from Marines is a good thing for the game as a whole.

Melissia wrote:Things which the Guard have plenty of. Plascan sponsons on Leman Russ tanks are already quite popular (due to vehicles not suffering Gets Hot!). But I was also talking about the LRBT. For a mere 150 points, you'd effectively get an S8 AP1 Ordnance weapon if it hits a vehicle directly, compared to now, where it's merely S8 AP3 ordnance. That would be a notable buff. I wouldn't complain about a buff to sentinel autocannons and plasma cannons, to be sure, but the heavy support options really don't need that kind of buff.

true. well said melissa. this "direct hit bonus" would make vanquishers redundant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyranic Marta wrote:sure, but thats because the gun cant take a caliber bullet big enough for a decent explosion, and dont try to tell me the Autocannon is too small as well, if modern day peoples can create the HE 50mm grenade im sure the 40000 peoples could create a "blast" shot for the Autocannon, which as i understand it is about 50cal, which is about 60mm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bolter = 30mm rounds (roughly)

modern day HE grenades = 50mm

Autocannon = 60mm (roughly)

actualy the bolter OR gyrojet grenade launcher as it is also known is a 20mm weapon.

the autocannon is around 50-60mm.

Yes please stop with silly stat changes to the autocannon. Just allow more turret, and sponson options.
TL AC +15
TL PC +60
PC Sponsons +80

That is more than enough to cover all bases. Including current options.

master of ordinance wrote:actualy the bolter OR gyrojet grenade launcher as it is also known

No.

The bolter is NOT a FETHING gyrojet launcher. How many damn times do we have to go over this misconception?

Gyrojet launchers are pitifully low power at short range, with essentially no armor penetration because it is purely a rocket round-- it has to get up to speed first. Bolt weapons have the same penetration at all ranges, as they are a combination rocket and bullet. Bolter shells contain enough initial charge to have the bolter penetrate flak armor at basically point blank range, and the rocket kicks in only after it leaves the barrel (the weapon is described as having a very unique sound because it essentially has three explosions in short succession-- initial charge, first ignition of the rocket, and the explosive charge once it penetrates).

Gyrojet Grenade Launcher doesnt even make sense

Melissia wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:actualy the bolter OR gyrojet grenade launcher as it is also known

No.

The bolter is NOT a FETHING gyrojet launcher. How many damn times do we have to go over this misconception?

Gyrojet launchers are pitifully low power at short range, with essentially no armor penetration because it is purely a rocket round-- it has to get up to speed first. Bolt weapons have the same penetration at all ranges, as they are a combination rocket and bullet. Bolter shells contain enough initial charge to have the bolter penetrate flak armor at basically point blank range, and the rocket kicks in only after it leaves the barrel (the weapon is described as having a very unique sound because it essentially has three explosions in short succession-- initial charge, first ignition of the rocket, and the explosive charge once it penetrates).

actualy (drum roll please)...................................................IT IS the bolt round uses a multi stage launch method.

Stage 1 initial propelant is ignited and bolt round leaves barrel of bolter essentialy in the same way as a bullet.

Stage 2 gyrojet system ignites at preset distance and boosts bolt which is already flying at initial muzzle velocity to target.

Stage 3 bolt impacts. equivalent of shoving a grenade inside of someone. enough said.

master of ordinance wrote:

Melissia wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:actualy the bolter OR gyrojet grenade launcher as it is also known

No.

The bolter is NOT a FETHING gyrojet launcher. How many damn times do we have to go over this misconception?

Gyrojet launchers are pitifully low power at short range, with essentially no armor penetration because it is purely a rocket round-- it has to get up to speed first. Bolt weapons have the same penetration at all ranges, as they are a combination rocket and bullet. Bolter shells contain enough initial charge to have the bolter penetrate flak armor at basically point blank range, and the rocket kicks in only after it leaves the barrel (the weapon is described as having a very unique sound because it essentially has three explosions in short succession-- initial charge, first ignition of the rocket, and the explosive charge once it penetrates).

actualy (drum roll please)...................................................IT IS the bolt round uses a multi stage launch method.

Stage 1 initial propelant is ignited and bolt round leaves barrel of bolter essentialy in the same way as a bullet.

Stage 2 gyrojet system ignites at preset distance and boosts bolt which is already flying at initial muzzle velocity to target.

Stage 3 bolt impacts. equivalent of shoving a grenade inside of someone. enough said.

Hey look, someone is repeating what I just said.

I'm glad you corrected your previous mistake by learning from my post.

Melissia is right, tht is how the bolter works. The 3rd explosion actually has a slight delay so that the round can penetrate before exploding causing maximum damage.

There are rifles that fire grenade type bullets (the new XM25 is a great example) however these are not comparable to the bolter or autocannon as they are different in both target and operation. Based on this, whether or not you could make a 'grenade' type round for the AC is irrelevant, its just not made to be used like that.

This thread is so off topic it's silly.

not realy, we are trying to make a way for the predator to be better, to do this some of us want to give the autocannon a blast template, we are now trying to justify or disclaim this idea

Cyclone Missile Launcher for turret weapon. Problem solved.

No 1
Chaos cant take those

No 2
Something has just Occurred to me
isnt this kind of thread pointless as GW is unlikely to change stuff like this anyway?

Might as well say that about the whole Proposed Rules forum.

I often do... in my head anyway

No, there is no reason to give the AC a blast template. Then it wouldn't even be an Autocannon.

Plasma cannons would be the better way to go.(IF you want blast) Leave the AC stats alone.

I say again. I would like to see: TL AC turret, TL PC turret and maybe TL Plasma Gun sponsons.

No NEW weapons or changing stat lines for current systems.

This is a missile based Predator variant I came up with a while back.

Predator Hellstreak

BS: 4 Armor: F: 13 S: 11 R: 10

Turret Weapon: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers(Fired as a single weapon)
Sponson Weapons: Deathwind Missile Launchers

Rules: Special Issue Missiles

In addition to the standard Frag and Krak missiles, the Hellstreak Predator may fire either Hellstreak Missiles or Thunderbolt Missiles(See below) Each launcher must fire the same type of missile, and only from the launcher, not the Deathwind launchers.

Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Thunderbolt Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: 1 Type: Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt: This weapon has no effect on Infantry. However, when targeting vehicles, ignore standard armor penetration, and roll a d6. On a 1, the hit fails to penetrate. On a 2, 3, 4, or 5, the hit is a Glancing Hit, and on a 6, the hit is a Penetrating Hit.

I don't think either of those are necessary. A TLCyclone Missile Launcher would suffice.

Melissia wrote:I don't think either of those are necessary. A TLCyclone Missile Launcher would suffice.

You ah... dont quite get it do you? not everyone can get those???
I think the plasma addition is a good idea it would bring a new dynamic to the game that i think would be awsome

Tyranic Marta wrote:

Melissia wrote:I don't think either of those are necessary. A TLCyclone Missile Launcher would suffice.

You ah... dont quite get it do you?

I get it. I just don't care.

and thats why im just giving up on this thread, because of people like you
people who jsut dont know when to accept that someone else is right and incorporate it into the disscussion instead of crushing it and moving on

Tyranic Marta wrote:people who jsut dont know when to accept that someone else is right

Don't be so hard on yourself.

It is irrelevant that not all Marine armies have access to the exact same equipment. So what? Are you also gonna be pissed off that your blue marines don't have fast predators, or your grey marines don't have predators iwth assault cannons?

That's just part of the game buddy. Unless you want all Marines to be the same?

no i dont care if i dont have the cyclone missle launcher, what i care about is that your trying to use it as a fix for predators.. when in this case it clearly matters that i cant get it

why not just use the plasma set up that a few people have suggested?? it solves the problems faced.

and besides, adding a missle rack to a predator is like taking a whilwind, if you want missles, TAKE a whirlwind

Whirlwind: S 5 AP 4 Barrage Weapon/S4 AP 5 Ignores Cover

Cyclone Missile Launcher: S 4 AP 6 Blast/S8 AP 3

The two serve completely different functions, as anyone who had even glanced at the weapons could tell you.

I might bookmark this just for the arguements.

*sigh*

its not the point, your all saying that we should have ANOUTHER weapon that MEQ can take with a missle mounting, isnt the teminator, landspeeder, whirlwind, droppod, enough?

not to mention most if not all vehicles being equipped with hunter seeker missles

add any ive missed?

No, my suggestion was to raise the cost of the predator but make its autocannon twin-linked. I merely said I'm okay with a plasma cannon turret/sponsons, or the TL CML. Certainly much better than that stupid suggestion to give a blast to autocannons, or AP1 to blast weapons that penetrate.

ok i understand, sorry


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and i just gave the idea to add blast to the autocannons as an offhand thing but people have pretty much made me argue the point or else make me look like someone who doesnt know what they are talking about... which true or otherwise i really loath.. so meh


moving on?

i think that pretty much everyone agrees that the predator needs to have more or at least, upgraded weapon mounts.

so far the plasma cannon and twin linked autocannons have been (imo) good suggestions, the cyclone, not so much

Predator: 65 Points

BS 4 Armor: 13/11/10

Weapons: Twin Linked Autocannon

Upgrades: Replace TL Autocannon with...
Twin Linked Lascannon: +25 Points
Twin Linked Plasma Cannon: +35 Points

Take Heavy Bolter Sponsons for +25 Points
or Plasma Cannon Sponsons for +45 Points
Or Lascannon Sponsons for +60 Points

Other Options: Unchanged

Tyranic Marta wrote:no i dont care if i dont have the cyclone missle launcher, what i care about is that your trying to use it as a fix for predators.. when in this case it clearly matters that i cant get it

why not just use the plasma set up that a few people have suggested?? it solves the problems faced.

and besides, adding a missle rack to a predator is like taking a whilwind, if you want missles, TAKE a whirlwind

If you are so intent on having the same weapon options as marines ..... PLAY MARINES!

The chaos pred could be fixed in a so much cooler way than the Vanilla Pred, how about mounting some slaaneshy guns? Marks for vehicles? You don't need the marines kit. Hasn't 10,000 years in the warp taught you anything?

ugh slaasneshy guns are good but they can only kill infantry, which isnt what is needed on most chaos preds, light vehichle killy is more needed

*facepalm* seriously im not intent on having the same weapons systems as marines, i loath their guts, i just fet a bit sour when they have like at least 5 additional types of vehicles as chaos and what do we get for it? blits and defilers, which dont get me wrong, are cool, but they arnt the same as the versatility that having that many vehicle choices gives. I would love to run my havoks in a razorback for example, but i dont get that option, my noise marines would be well backed up by a landspeer squad, but i cant have that either.

some dedicated chaosy units would be nice.

and back to the the defiler and the blit, sure we have those, but they cant fill some of the roles as say a landspeeder or a whirlwind.

Tyranic Marta wrote:ugh slaasneshy guns are good but they can only kill infantry, which isnt what is needed on most chaos preds, light vehichle killy is more needed

*facepalm* seriously im not intent on having the same weapons systems as marines, i loath their guts, i just fet a bit sour when they have like at least 5 additional types of vehicles as chaos and what do we get for it? blits and defilers, which dont get me wrong, are cool, but they arnt the same as the versatility that having that many vehicle choices gives. I would love to run my havoks in a razorback for example, but i dont get that option, my noise marines would be well backed up by a landspeer squad, but i cant have that either.

some dedicated chaosy units would be nice.

and back to the the defiler and the blit, sure we have those, but they cant fill some of the roles as say a landspeeder or a whirlwind.

Being that I do own, and greatly enjoy playing, a Nurgle force, I can appreciate where you are coming from, but ultimately chaos is not about speeding around and tactically dominating the opponent, they win the battle by brute force, which is what many of the units do well. What I would like to see is more monster units (tricking out possessed to not suck would be nice) and crazy powerful vehicles that so befit the chaos philosophy.

Tyranic Marta wrote:blits and defilers, which dont get me wrong, are cool, but they arnt the same as the versatility that having that many vehicle choices gives.

Blits as in Olbiterators as in the most versatile unit in the entire game? Sure, it's not very fun to play with them all the time, but to claim that the Chaos Codex doesn't have as much versatility is kinda bad...

Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines split after the Horus Heresy. Since then, the Space Marines have been(slowly) developing and discovering new vehicles, such as the Vindicator, Razorback, all extra Land Raider variants, and probably Whirlwinds as well. The reason we have stuff you don't is because we've been developing them for thousands of years, whereas you've been hanging in the Eye of Terror, which isn't exactly the best place for creating new Vehicles.

maybe not, but you would expect that chaos being chaos, they would find a way to make themselfs betyter than the imperium

i can totally see some chaos dude looking at a whirlwind and then looking at his friend

"Dude we have totally gotta get one of those"

I'd like to see stalk-tanks from the Gaunt's Ghosts series for Chaos, myself.

Maybe for LatD instead of CSMs, though.

"Except ours will have demonically possessed missiles that explode and release a demon that eats everything within a 30 mile radius"

Seriously, though, the Chaos Space Marines have a negligible industrial capacity. They probably couldn't produce many even if they did get their hands on the blueprints.

they produce warhound titans dont they?

IIRC, they steal them most of the time.

*shrug* I dont care HOW they get the gear as long as they get it

couldnt they make deals with the daemon forges to make daemon vehicles for them?

Tyranic Marta wrote:*shrug* I dont care HOW they get the gear as long as they get it

couldnt they make deals with the daemon forges to make daemon vehicles for them?

Which are things like Defilers and Soul Grinders. Most of their ships and larger vehicles are stolen from the Imperium, or are the original equipment the traitor legions had during the Horus Heresy.

my point still stands

Not really...

Daemon forges make things for daemons. They are not aligned to any chaos god, and in fact, when you have something made for you by the daemon forge, you must swear allegiance to the demon forge to use it.

Tyranic Marta wrote:*shrug* I dont care HOW they get the gear as long as they get it

that part of my point

We're getting off topic.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:We're getting off topic.

CSM could us a few more defiler like options... a speeder replacement perhaps, and for the love of the Kaos gods a new dreadnought.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyranic Marta wrote:blits and defilers, which dont get me wrong, are cool, but they arnt the same as the versatility that having that many vehicle choices gives.

Blits as in Olbiterators as in the most versatile unit in the entire game? Sure, it's not very fun to play with them all the time, but to claim that the Chaos Codex doesn't have as much versatility is kinda bad...

Indeed, how having Units that shoot with the best, AND fight with the best, in the same unit, isn't "versatile" I have no idea. I am, of course, talking about the unloved Chaos Space Marine. Not to mention Obliterators which have access to weapons we can't get anywhere else and can fire different weapons per turn, OR Havics that can fight up close with Orks, or any of our other mean tricks....


I would personally love more Daemon Vehicles, like that Vehicle I proposed along time ago; basically it was a drop pod with guns and the Crazed Rule from the Dreadnaught; drop it down, it pops open, and then laughs maniacaly as it shoots everything around it.

that sounds good

and yes the chaos dex is versatile, i still maintain that it is one of the most versatile codicies around. However it only reflects that in its infantary, the previous poster made that very apparent by only mentioning infantry units in those that were versatile.

some vehicles to add to the effect would be nice

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:This is a missile based Predator variant I came up with a while back.

Predator Hellstreak

BS: 4 Armor: F: 13 S: 11 R: 10

Turret Weapon: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers(Fired as a single weapon)
Sponson Weapons: Deathwind Missile Launchers

Rules: Special Issue Missiles

In addition to the standard Frag and Krak missiles, the Hellstreak Predator may fire either Hellstreak Missiles or Thunderbolt Missiles(See below) Each launcher must fire the same type of missile, and only from the launcher, not the Deathwind launchers.

Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Thunderbolt Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: 1 Type: Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt: This weapon has no effect on Infantry. However, when targeting vehicles, ignore standard armor penetration, and roll a d6. On a 1, the hit fails to penetrate. On a 2, 3, 4, or 5, the hit is a Glancing Hit, and on a 6, the hit is a Penetrating Hit.

hmm
these rules seem suspiciusly similar to my origional Landraider Hellstreak rules.
not really that bad huh

If the chaos pred got replaced with the one from the fandex on this forum, I'd be happy

I love me some warp cannons

master of ordinance wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:This is a missile based Predator variant I came up with a while back.

Predator Hellstreak

BS: 4 Armor: F: 13 S: 11 R: 10

Turret Weapon: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers(Fired as a single weapon)
Sponson Weapons: Deathwind Missile Launchers

Rules: Special Issue Missiles

In addition to the standard Frag and Krak missiles, the Hellstreak Predator may fire either Hellstreak Missiles or Thunderbolt Missiles(See below) Each launcher must fire the same type of missile, and only from the launcher, not the Deathwind launchers.

Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Thunderbolt Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: 1 Type: Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt: This weapon has no effect on Infantry. However, when targeting vehicles, ignore standard armor penetration, and roll a d6. On a 1, the hit fails to penetrate. On a 2, 3, 4, or 5, the hit is a Glancing Hit, and on a 6, the hit is a Penetrating Hit.

hmm
these rules seem suspiciusly similar to my origional Landraider Hellstreak rules.
not really that bad huh

Remember how I first posted this in your thread?

@!ChrisWW2, super effective with a rat flail!

If were going to complain about how sm get rubbish stuff, then why dont we start a tau wishlist thread about how their tanks need work too, and elder tanks, and ork tanks, and dark elder tanks and dont forget steam tanks!

pretty much all of those tanks work ecxept for tau cause imo tau need an overhaul with thier skyrays, but other then that their tanks work too. so

Denied...

jks, i understand where your coming from but your statement is... wrong

Well of course. its an overexagurated statement designed to cause aquadness

there is only one answer to this

o.O

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:
Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Sir! Your missiles offend me! prepare to defend your honor!

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:This is a missile based Predator variant I came up with a while back.

Predator Hellstreak

BS: 4 Armor: F: 13 S: 11 R: 10

Turret Weapon: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers(Fired as a single weapon)
Sponson Weapons: Deathwind Missile Launchers

Rules: Special Issue Missiles

In addition to the standard Frag and Krak missiles, the Hellstreak Predator may fire either Hellstreak Missiles or Thunderbolt Missiles(See below) Each launcher must fire the same type of missile, and only from the launcher, not the Deathwind launchers.

Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Thunderbolt Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: 1 Type: Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt: This weapon has no effect on Infantry. However, when targeting vehicles, ignore standard armor penetration, and roll a d6. On a 1, the hit fails to penetrate. On a 2, 3, 4, or 5, the hit is a Glancing Hit, and on a 6, the hit is a Penetrating Hit.

hmm
these rules seem suspiciusly similar to my origional Landraider Hellstreak rules.
not really that bad huh

Remember how I first posted this in your thread?

yeah. but i did origionaly invent the hellstreak missile.
still they are good rules.

I reckon I'll chime in.

Autocannon stats are fine as-is. Adjusting those is just silly when the tank, not the guns, is the problem. As such, you need to focus on the tank itself.

The first problem is the issue of heavy slots. Making a Predator a squadable vehicle (1-3) is the first fix.

The second issue is cost ... is the basic Predator worth 60 points? Would a price reduction of 5, 10, or even 15 be reasonable?

The third issue is firepower. Th eeasy fix for this is to simpy add more weapon options. Thus:

TURRET WEAPON UPGRADES (In addition to current options)
- Upgrade the Autocannon to twin-linked: +10 points
- Replace the Autocannon with a Plasma Cannon: + XX points

SPONSON WEAPON UPGRADES (in addition to current options)
- Add Plasma Gun sponsons: + XX points
- Add Stormbolter Sponsons: + 10 points


...


Telll you what, here's a completely rekitted Predator profile, taking my own suggestions into account. Has the bonus of allowing a new sprue to be made that covers the new options.

PREDATOR -- 50 points

Predator: BS 4, F 13, S 11, R 10

Unit Composition:
- 1-3 Predators
Unit Type:
- Vehicle (Tank)
Wargear:
- Twin-linked Heavy Bolter
- Smoke launchers
- Searchlight

Options:
- Replace Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters with:
-- Autocannon: +10 points
-- Heavy Flamer: +10 points
-- Assault Cannon: +15 points
-- Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak Missiles: +20 points
-- Multimelta: +20 points
-- Plasma Cannon: +20 points
-- Lascannon: +30 points
-- Twin-linked Lascannon: +45 points

- May take side sponsons with:
-- Storm Bolters: +10 points
-- Flamers: +10 points
-- Heavy Bolters: +20 points
-- Meltaguns: +20 points
-- Plasma Guns: +30 points
-- Lascanons: +60 points

- May take any of the following:
-- a Storm Bolter: +5 points
-- a Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 points
-- a dozer blade: +5 points
-- Extra Armor: +15 points




(PHEW that's a lot of typing!)

This gives an option for a cheap heavy bolter platform, the standard AC predator stays at 60 points, but you have a huge array of upgrade options, letting you build a tank that your chapter really wants. You can have a 60 point "More dakka!" version with twin-linked heavy bolters and storm bolter sponsons, the "Bog Standard" AC pred with a pair of heavy bolters, a flamer tank, a melta tank, plasma options, a missile launcher for those who want the single Str 8 shot instead of a pair of Str 7, the dead killy Lascannon version, even an Assault Cannon version (Twin-linked staying a Blood Angel exclusive on the Baal.) Personally, I'd take away the side lascannon options as it looks silly and compromises the basis of the chassis, but, it's traditional. Then again, since you can take a second AC-only pred for the same cost as strapping two lascannon to an existing pred, taking that option away wouldn't be a terrible thing.

In essence, you have a "Tactical tank" as opposed to the "Devastator Tank" of the Imperial Guard ... lighter, faster, but more lightly armed. Taking a main gun and a pair of support weapons lets you rip it up, and the 75 point "Autocannon turret, pair of Storm Bolter sponsons, additional storm bolter" is a dakka machine that can move 6" and fire all weapons, giving a better feel for a light tank zipping around and doing its thang.

Might want to double-check the points costs on a few items as I kinda threw it together, but it passes the eyeball test.

Wakshaani wrote:I reckon I'll chime in.

Autocannon stats are fine as-is. Adjusting those is just silly when the tank, not the guns, is the problem. As such, you need to focus on the tank itself.

The first problem is the issue of heavy slots. Making a Predator a squadable vehicle (1-3) is the first fix.

The second issue is cost ... is the basic Predator worth 60 points? Would a price reduction of 5, 10, or even 15 be reasonable?

The third issue is firepower. Th eeasy fix for this is to simpy add more weapon options. Thus:

TURRET WEAPON UPGRADES (In addition to current options)
- Upgrade the Autocannon to twin-linked: +10 points
- Replace the Autocannon with a Plasma Cannon: + XX points

SPONSON WEAPON UPGRADES (in addition to current options)
- Add Plasma Gun sponsons: + XX points
- Add Stormbolter Sponsons: + 10 points


...


Telll you what, here's a completely rekitted Predator profile, taking my own suggestions into account. Has the bonus of allowing a new sprue to be made that covers the new options.

PREDATOR -- 50 points

Predator: BS 4, F 13, S 11, R 10

Unit Composition:
- 1-3 Predators
Unit Type:
- Vehicle (Tank)
Wargear:
- Twin-linked Heavy Bolter
- Smoke launchers
- Searchlight

Options:
- Replace Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters with:
-- Autocannon: +10 points
-- Heavy Flamer: +10 points
-- Assault Cannon: +15 points
-- Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak Missiles: +20 points
-- Multimelta: +20 points
-- Plasma Cannon: +20 points
-- Lascannon: +30 points

- May take side sponsons with:
-- Storm Bolters: +10 points
-- Flamers: +10 points
-- Heavy Bolters: +20 points
-- Meltaguns: +20 points
-- Plasma Guns: +30 points
-- Lascanons: +60 points

- May take any of the following:
-- a Storm Bolter: +5 points
-- a Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 points
-- a dozer blade: +5 points
-- Extra Armor: +15 points




(PHEW that's a lot of typing!)

This gives an option for a cheap heavy bolter platform, the standard AC predator stays at 60 points, but you have a huge array of upgrade options, letting you build a tank that your chapter really wants. You can have a 60 point "More dakka!" version with twin-linked heavy bolters and storm bolter sponsons, the "Bog Standard" AC pred with a pair of heavy bolters, a flamer tank, a melta tank, plasma options, a missile launcher for those who want the single Str 8 shot instead of a pair of Str 7, the dead killy Lascannon version, even an Assault Cannon version (Twin-linked staying a Blood Angel exclusive on the Baal.) Personally, I'd take away the side lascannon options as it looks silly and compromises the basis of the chassis, but, it's traditional. Then again, since you can take a second AC-only pred for the same cost as strapping two lascannon to an existing pred, taking that option away wouldn't be a terrible thing.

In essence, you have a "Tactical tank" as opposed to the "Devastator Tank" of the Imperial Guard ... lighter, faster, but more lightly armed. Taking a main gun and a pair of support weapons lets you rip it up, and the 75 point "Autocannon turret, pair of Storm Bolter sponsons, additional storm bolter" is a dakka machine that can move 6" and fire all weapons, giving a better feel for a light tank zipping around and doing its thang.

Might want to double-check the points costs on a few items as I kinda threw it together, but it passes the eyeball test.

no offense but WHY have stormbolter and flamer sponsons on an MBT
and surely you you ment plasmaCANNON not plasmaGUN

master of ordinance wrote:no offense but WHY have stormbolter and flamer sponsons on an MBT
and surely you you ment plasmaCANNON not plasmaGUN

Nope, meant what I said. The turret gets a main gun (like a plasmaCANNON) while the side-sponsons get lighter weapons (like a plasmaGUN) ... this is akin to a modern tank's main gun, then smaller .50 cals for anti-infantry work.

The stormbolter option allows more anti-infantry fire (Note that as a strength 4 weapon, it may be fired in addition to the normal 1-gun limit while moving) while the flamer .... same thing, hitting more targets (template) but at a shorter range (8" vs 24") ... a fair trade. Kitting your pred up for infantry-hunting, these are good options that don't hit as hard as a heavy bolter but allow better mobility.

If, instead, you want it in a dedicated tank-hunter role, you can bristle it with lascannon.

If you want a mixed role, you can do that too.

Thus, Tactical Tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... And I realize that the main gun costs are all off, using the Autocanon baseline instad of a heavy bolter one. D"oh! Leave the Autocannon and Heavy Flamer upgrades at the shown cost, but boost the rest by ten points. Sorry about that.

Yep, all we have to do is give everything every option and we fix the game!

Guaiwu wrote:Yep, all we have to do is give everything every option and we fix the game!

Admitedly, it might be an option or two too many, but, proof of concept here.

Wakshaani wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:no offense but WHY have stormbolter and flamer sponsons on an MBT
and surely you you ment plasmaCANNON not plasmaGUN

Nope, meant what I said. The turret gets a main gun (like a plasmaCANNON) while the side-sponsons get lighter weapons (like a plasmaGUN) ... this is akin to a modern tank's main gun, then smaller .50 cals for anti-infantry work.

The stormbolter option allows more anti-infantry fire (Note that as a strength 4 weapon, it may be fired in addition to the normal 1-gun limit while moving) while the flamer .... same thing, hitting more targets (template) but at a shorter range (8" vs 24") ... a fair trade. Kitting your pred up for infantry-hunting, these are good options that don't hit as hard as a heavy bolter but allow better mobility.

If, instead, you want it in a dedicated tank-hunter role, you can bristle it with lascannon.

If you want a mixed role, you can do that too.

Thus, Tactical Tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... And I realize that the main gun costs are all off, using the Autocanon baseline instad of a heavy bolter one. D"oh! Leave the Autocannon and Heavy Flamer upgrades at the shown cost, but boost the rest by ten points. Sorry about that.

Ok. i am understanding this. actualy i like your argument. it IS true but if you want to represent a browning.50 then why not use the venerable heavy stubber. after all it is the 40K version of one.
also the sponsons are desighned to allow the tank to mount a heavier secondary arment. in away almost like the tanks of WW1 exept they mounted their main arment in their sponsons and had no turrets exept the FT17 that had a turret but no sponsons.

master of ordinance wrote:
Ok. i am understanding this. actualy i like your argument. it IS true but if you want to represent a browning.50 then why not use the venerable heavy stubber. after all it is the 40K version of one.
also the sponsons are desighned to allow the tank to mount a heavier secondary arment. in away almost like the tanks of WW1 exept they mounted their main arment in their sponsons and had no turrets exept the FT17 that had a turret but no sponsons.

Well, the heavy stubber would be an odd fit since it otherwise doesn't exist in the Marine weapon list. Might as well use the tool sthat are already there.

In addition, ratching up the weaponry to side-mounted heavy guns, while at the same time allowing 3 to be taken per Heavy Support Choice, can quickly get silly. If someone brought out a force whose heavy selection enabled 27 Plasma Cannons, for example, they might be punched. (3 per tank, 3 tanks per choice, 3 choices.)

Sooo, with special weapon side-sponsons and a heavy weapon main gun, they start to look comperable to tactical squads. Can move and shoot, armor instead of tou/wounds, but gets shaken, where footsloggers have ablative wounds. Fires one gun on the move or all while stationary ... it get sto be a choice that can be good, or poor, depending on the terrain. (Hint: More difficult terrain that provides cover, like trees, the better for footsloggers. Less terrain, better for Predators.)

The storm bolter is the heavy stubber's bolter statistical equivalent (in the Guard, both cost the same and are pintle mount). Use that if you don't want to use the heavy stubber.

ive used an autocannon on top of my predator for a long time and find that it usually performs very well

GW could give the predator 3 twin-link railguns. the 11 side armor gets mine killed every 2nd game before it even gets a shot off

I do think a tank should have 12 side armor.

The side armor is definitely a weakness, but I think that if it was buffed up, then go from a "pretty good tank" to "BRING IT ON" in my opinion

It probably should have 12 side armor because it is a tank, however that should come with an appropriate cost increase. And it doesn't need every weapon option in the codex.

Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

I'd say it's worth a tad bit more than 60, myself, but meh. Two practically guaranteed S7 AP4 hits, hard to destroy without dedicated heavy AT weapons, etc...

Melissia wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

I'd say it's worth a tad bit more than 60, myself, but meh. Two practically guaranteed S7 AP4 hits, hard to destroy without dedicated heavy AT weapons, etc...

I might ... might consider it a fraction overpriced, particularly when compared to something like the Chimera (which comes with 2 heavy weapons and transport capacity), however the armor is better, even the increasingly spammed Autocannon is going to have trouble getting through (on the front anyway). If you took a stock one at 60pts and used it to cover an advance I wouldn't consider the points wasted.

Guaiwu wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

I'd say it's worth a tad bit more than 60, myself, but meh. Two practically guaranteed S7 AP4 hits, hard to destroy without dedicated heavy AT weapons, etc...

I might ... might consider it a fraction overpriced, particularly when compared to something like the Chimera (which comes with 2 heavy weapons and transport capacity), however the armor is better, even the increasingly spammed Autocannon is going to have trouble getting through (on the front anyway). If you took a stock one at 60pts and used it to cover an advance I wouldn't consider the points wasted.

But the force organization slot would be, 60 points for one slot, Please please give it some guns

even the heavy bolter sponsins would be good, especially if the necrons are going to a 4+ save, the heavy bolter and the autocannon are going to become VERY efficent weapons able to ignore the armour of tau necrons guard nids orks eldar and dark eldar, as well as scouts and equivalent

Tyranic Marta wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

I'd say it's worth a tad bit more than 60, myself, but meh. Two practically guaranteed S7 AP4 hits, hard to destroy without dedicated heavy AT weapons, etc...

I might ... might consider it a fraction overpriced, particularly when compared to something like the Chimera (which comes with 2 heavy weapons and transport capacity), however the armor is better, even the increasingly spammed Autocannon is going to have trouble getting through (on the front anyway). If you took a stock one at 60pts and used it to cover an advance I wouldn't consider the points wasted.

But the force organization slot would be, 60 points for one slot, Please please give it some guns

even the heavy bolter sponsins would be good, especially if the necrons are going to a 4+ save, the heavy bolter and the autocannon are going to become VERY efficent weapons able to ignore the armour of tau necrons guard nids orks eldar and dark eldar, as well as scouts and equivalent

I will agree that a HS slot can be used a lot more valuably, and maybe the Pred will become even more valuable once the new Necron codex appears. But it would still depend on your army, do the tanks need to move or not?

And yet, they're still a MERE 60 points for 13/12/10 and a twin-linked autocannon at BS4 (practically two guaranteed hits).

Dakka predators are already dirt cheap as it is, you get a lot for what you pay for.

Maybe leave the Predator with 13/11/10, but allow it to be taken in Squadrons of up to 3?

meh if one gets immobilized the whole lot are screwed, not worth it, instead i think that it would be cool if you can have up to three tanks per slot but they cout as separate units

Tyranic Marta wrote:meh if one gets immobilized the whole lot are screwed, not worth it, instead i think that it would be cool if you can have up to three tanks per slot but they cout as separate units

Sure, let's just throw the existing conventions for multiple vehicles in one slot entirely out of the window.

I see no problems with it, the astartes are not the kind of faction to rely on "squads" of tanks, rather a few independant vehicles acting as solo hunters o support units, a squad seems completely out of character for them

landspeeders are the exception here, but for good reason, its because they are a light support vehicle, not a battle tank

you cant attach the conventions of guardsmen to Astartes, or chaos for that matter

I honestly don't see what's wrong with the Predator. It's cost effective. Not every option needs to completely destroy it's target.

As the player of an elites army i strongly dissagree, i dont have the luxury of multiple units targetting the same model to take it down, i often have to use one unit to wipe out multipule models over the course of a game, that means that each of my choices needs to not only be able to kill its standard target but all the other ones in its line of sight as well, this is the reason that i no longer run lascannons o the predator, because i personally find them less effective than the chainfists i run on my terminators, the autocannon and heavy bolters however tend to be exceptional against everything i target with them, namely rank and file troops and elites choices, terminators to gaunts nothing survives, but i often dont run a predator at all because it is a heavy support slot that is often wiped out quickly, whereas my havok squads with 4* autocannons often survive right till the end of the game racking up several kill marks. Personally i would use predators more often if i could have more than one of them per slot.

It would be nice to take them in squadrons, I have nothing against that, I just don't think it needs a power boost.

yeah i kind of agree with you after ive thought about it and read this thread,

Wait; the Invaders are basically the "Armored Assault" chapter of Marines, so why not give them a commander that lets them take Predators in squadrons?

Julian Kallarn, Captain of the Invaders 3rd Company: 165 Points

WS: 6 BS: 5 S: 4 T: 4 W: 3 I: 5 A: 3 Ld: 10 Sv: 2+(4++)

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Chapter Tactics, Independent Character

Wargear: Combi-Plasma, Lightning Claw, Frag and Krak Grenades, Artificer Armor, Iron Halo

Chapter Tactics: If you take Kallarn in your army, all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics rule. Instead, you may take an Invaders Armored Spear as a Heavy Support Choice

---

Invaders Armored Spear: Vehicle Squadron

Unit Consists of: 1-3 Predators, 0-2 Whirlwinds, 0-2 Vindicators

Predator: 60 Points per tank

Wargear: Autocannon

Armor: 13/11/10

Upgrades: Replace Autocannon with Twin Linked Lascannon: +45 Points
Take Heavy Bolter Sponsons: +25 Points
Or Lascannon Sponsons: +60 Points

Vindicator: 115 Points per tank

Wargear: Demolisher Cannon

Take a siege shield: 10 Points

Armor: 13/11/10

Whirlwind: 85 Points Per Tank

Any tank may take any of the following
A Storm Bolter: 10 points
A Hunter-Killer Missile: 10 Points
A dozer blade: 5 Points
Extra Armour: 15 Points

Brother Sergeant Chronus may not be assigned to any tank in an Invaders Armored Spear

and what does that do for all the other chapters and factions?

It doesn't, but doesn't it make sense for the Invaders to have the SM tank commander?

sure, but how would you giv3e the other factions a solution to the problem?

Cut the Predator's cost by 10 points, or make the Autocannon twin-linked.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Cut the Predator's cost by 10 points, or make the Autocannon twin-linked.

Or just leave it exactly as is because it is quite ok, and still useful, if sub-optimal. Whereas there are many other units that are not even remotely useful *cough* insult marines *cough*

cough possessed cough bikers cough dread cough

Tyranic Marta wrote:cough possessed cough bikers cough dread cough

Well, if we are going to talk about Chaos *cough* spawn *cough* raptors *cough* everything not in the troops or HS sections *cough*

that was some very truthful and informative coughing, and i agreed with both sides, especially the raptors, my friend always uses them and they always die before they do anything, often just from one combat squad of marines, its a waste of points for him in my opinion

Personally i think the chosen termies and HQ's are pretty good, i still run a pair of lash princes and they tend to butcher everything

There's nothing wrong with Chaos Bikers, Terminators or Chosen. That's one fast attack and two elites that are actually playable without gimping your list.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There's nothing wrong with Chaos Bikers, Terminators or Chosen. That's one fast attack and two elites that are actually playable without gimping your list.

I'll give you terminators and chosen (except chosen should be slightly better than normal CSM) I use them both, but bikers? Suicide melta unit (minimal effect, high cost) or daemon delivery and suicide unit, not great for anything really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyranic Marta wrote:Personally i think the chosen termies and HQ's are pretty good, i still run a pair of lash princes and they tend to butcher everything

Daemon princes are good, mostly because they have one upgrade *cough* wings *cough* that is way under priced. All other HQ's are meh compared to that. It basically forces your build along one of 2 lines, both of which are lead by a DP (or 2), don't see much else out there.

Guaiwu wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There's nothing wrong with Chaos Bikers, Terminators or Chosen. That's one fast attack and two elites that are actually playable without gimping your list.

I'll give you terminators and chosen (except chosen should be slightly better than normal CSM) I use them both, but bikers? Suicide melta unit (minimal effect, high cost) or daemon delivery and suicide unit, not great for anything really.

As opposed to termicide?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There's nothing wrong with Chaos Bikers, Terminators or Chosen. That's one fast attack and two elites that are actually playable without gimping your list.

I'll give you terminators and chosen (except chosen should be slightly better than normal CSM) I use them both, but bikers? Suicide melta unit (minimal effect, high cost) or daemon delivery and suicide unit, not great for anything really.

As opposed to termicide?

At least termies often take out their points worth before they die. True, I often think of what else I could buy with their points, but they are fun and thematic.

I like the rending on my assault cannon, alot of people say to take cyclone, but i am a fan of AC! Termies rule, I find they are a unit that alot of peopletry to focus most/all of their fire on, allowing me to do mostly what I want with the rest of my army.

dajobe wrote:I like the rending on my assault cannon, alot of people say to take cyclone, but i am a fan of AC! Termies rule, I find they are a unit that alot of peopletry to focus most/all of their fire on, allowing me to do mostly what I want with the rest of my army.

QFT