Hey Guys, I finally let Dash publish it so here is the third round from the Little Wars Tournament. Check it out:

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2011/06/dashofpeppers-necrons-at-little-wars.html

Enjoy

Am I the only one who has a problem with no flying bases under the monoliths? That completely changes that game/army.

It is reasonable to place flying bases under monoliths, the tiny little plastic skimmer ones, b/c there's a spot on the lith's bottom for it. That said, many Lith boxes (if not all) don't come with one, so formally it is not required.

Given the vehicle was built and designed for 4e in every respect, where skimmer base or not it never blocked LOS at all, it is probably close to hardcore rules lawyering to actually go baseless ... BUT anyone who has played with liths knows the bases BARELY lift them above the ground anyway.

Not really; as far as I know the kit doesn't come with any bases does it?

Yes it does. It comes with a large flying base.

And the INAT (which this tournament may not have used) says that models must be mounted on their flying bases.

I know we are only talking about an inch of elevation, but that inch allows you to shoot at the guys behind. And killing 9 wraiths at range is relatively easy and destroys the backbone of the army. Absolutely game changing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MVBrandt wrote:That said, many Lith boxes (if not all) don't come with one, so formally it is not required.

It comes with one now. It came with one when I owned necrons four years ago. I'm not aware of it ever coming without one. But now is the only important time anyway.

I've brought three Monoliths over the age and none came with flying bases at all. They did have small lips on the bottom which made the Monolith look like it's hovering about 1/4 off the ground maybe.

@ArtfcllyFlvrd

None of the one when I worked for GW came with them, granted that was close to 8 years ago when they first released them.

Regarding the LOS issue that not having it on a stand represents unless your models are modelled kneeling the width of the Monolith and angle from the head of a model would make it very, very hard (if not impossible) to see the Wraiths anyway. And I'd make you use a laser pointer to show it since I don't think the angle works.

Either way I wouldn't have a problem with them being on the ground. Even the ones I've see mounted cored out the hole larger and it sits lower for stability.

The Eldar player was doing fine until turn #5.

His list was not built well (he is all anti-tank and has none of the heavy firepower that Eldar are known for).

On turn 5 he should have gotten his army out of his wave serpents and shoot 10 dire avengers and 20 guardians at the wraiths. With Eldrads Doom and 2 guides he should have killed a lot of them, and the banshees charge in to finish off what ever is left. He wasted way to much effort into killing the monoliths, and they were never going to go down except to the wraithlords in assault.

Hulksmash wrote:@ArtfcllyFlvrd

None of the one when I worked for GW came with them, granted that was close to 8 years ago when they first released them.

Regarding the LOS issue that not having it on a stand represents unless your models are modelled kneeling the width of the Monolith and angle from the head of a model would make it very, very hard (if not impossible) to see the Wraiths anyway. And I'd make you use a laser pointer to show it since I don't think the angle works.

Either way I wouldn't have a problem with them being on the ground. Even the ones I've see mounted cored out the hole larger and it sits lower for stability.

Like I said, the current boxes do. If there was a time that they didn't it was many, many years ago.

And I agree most things are still not going to have LOS. And it may not have come up this game because of the player's army list, but against other armies it definetly would.

But most tanks at 24"+ would be able to see under. Most infantry at about 12"+ would be able to see under.

I'm not trying to knock dash as a player or write off his wins, but putting them on the ground takes away a disadvantage that a savy player could exploit. I can now deal with things other than monoliths at range, which gives me an infinetly better chance of phasing the army out. And I don't need to get close or try and shoot inbetween monoliths putting myself in charge range of the wraiths.

My gaurd stand a pretty decent shot at blowing away 9 wraiths at extreme range under the monoliths in a single turn. That means no WBB, no second WBB, no assault threat, and only a few more warriors to munch (also under the monoliths) before I win.

It wouldn't matter to everyone and every list. It would abosolutely decide the game against me.

My personal opinion is if it isn't that game changing then just follow the rules and put them up on bases. If you are unwilling to it is basically an admission to the fact that it is game changing and it's cheating.

Is it just the rule of the internet to nitpick and jump on something as pointless as the lack of a 1" flying base? As Hulk stated, being able to see under a monolith would be virtually impossible from range anyway, so it doesn't affect the game. And for Christ's sake, he's playing CC Necrons!

Ugh, that is not a good match up for the Eldar player. Bad times there!

Skarboy wrote:Is it just the rule of the internet to nitpick and jump on something as pointless as the lack of a 1" flying base? As Hulk stated, being able to see under a monolith would be virtually impossible from range anyway, so it doesn't affect the game. And for Christ's sake, he's playing CC Necrons!

It's far from pointless.

On the base I can roll up, hop out with melta vets and plasma CCS, issue the reroll cover saves order, fire under the monoliths and wipe away all the wraiths easily. On the ground you can't. In the same manner I could put those shots into warriors and might get the army to phase out in a single round of shooting.

It takes options aways from the opponent. If it doesnt then just follow the rules and put them up anyway.

I do say Kudos for winning at all with the army. But the army is based off a quarky build people are not prepared for, and taking away (IMO illegally) one of the best ways to deal with the build, ignoring the monoliths. Raise the monolith at all at it gives people an opportunity to get at what's behind it. That's far, FAR from pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not saying that's how he won, or wins with this army. But if you are going to taught your tactical genius I say that you should be playing every rule correctly without question.

issue the reroll cover saves order

Wraiths have a 3++ invuln.
They are also on flying bases, so I'm not sure how you would see them past the monolith. The edges of the monolith go down past where the flying base pole goes in so at best you have approx. 1" between the tabletop and the bottom edge of the monolith.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Skarboy wrote:Is it just the rule of the internet to nitpick and jump on something as pointless as the lack of a 1" flying base? As Hulk stated, being able to see under a monolith would be virtually impossible from range anyway, so it doesn't affect the game. And for Christ's sake, he's playing CC Necrons!

It's far from pointless.

On the base I can roll up, hop out with melta vets and plasma CCS, issue the reroll cover saves order, fire under the monoliths and wipe away all the wraiths easily. On the ground you can't. In the same manner I could put those shots into warriors and might get the army to phase out in a single round of shooting.

It takes options aways from the opponent. If it doesnt then just follow the rules and put them up anyway.

I do say Kudos for winning at all with the army. But the army is based off a quarky build people are not prepared for, and taking away (IMO illegally) one of the best ways to deal with the build, ignoring the monoliths. Raise the monolith at all at it gives people an opportunity to get at what's behind it. That's far, FAR from pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not saying that's how he won, or wins with this army. But if you are going to taught your tactical genius I say that you should be playing every rule correctly without question.

Rules state the bases they came with, the older models came with no bases included. By RAW you can't base the older Monoliths.

Dok wrote:Wraiths have a 3++ invuln.

Right. Wraiths don't need cover.

They are also on flying bases,

Nope, you're thinking destroyers. Wraiths are based on normal rounds with a tail.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Yes it does. It comes with a large flying base.

And the INAT (which this tournament may not have used) says that models must be mounted on their flying bases.

I know we are only talking about an inch of elevation, but that inch allows you to shoot at the guys behind. And killing 9 wraiths at range is relatively easy and destroys the backbone of the army. Absolutely game changing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MVBrandt wrote:That said, many Lith boxes (if not all) don't come with one, so formally it is not required.

It comes with one now. It came with one when I owned necrons four years ago. I'm not aware of it ever coming without one. But now is the only important time anyway.

For the record, he just bought a brand new monolith less than two weeks ago and it did NOT come with a flying base.

I REALLY doubt a guardsmen could see under a monolith to models on the other side if it were on a flying base. Remember you check LoS from the model's eyes, not his toes.

I'm picturing it in my head, and the angle just does not work.

The RAW in this situation states you put it on the base it came with. If they were purchased awhile ago and didn't come with any base, then RAW states you should not base it. The catch 22 to this what happens if you buy one off ebay and the guy didn't include a base (even though when HE bought it it came with one).

I do say Kudos for winning at all with the army. But the army is based off a quarky build people are not prepared for, and taking away (IMO illegally) one of the best ways to deal with the build, ignoring the monoliths. Raise the monolith at all at it gives people an opportunity to get at what's behind it. That's far, FAR from pointless.

*sigh*
Not again!

I remember I was told to put back my landspeeder bases or get suspended when I tried to hide my speeders behind rhinos once.
Wonder if he would complain if all the fireprisms, falcons, speeders, stormravens etc etc he meets also take of their bases and find/provide covers. I mean someone is bound to have a base missing in his box.

If half the kits come with bases and the other half dont then use RAI ffs. A skimmer is not supposed to drag itself on the ground scraping a path through rock and dirt, its supposed to hover, h o v e r.
Ergo: use bases like they are intended.

Simple question:
Is there a hole underneath the monolith to fit a base pin in or not? If so it is there for a reason *hint*.

The terrain for this event was much better than the Alamo GT, it's a pity neither army was finished. The best battle reports, to me, include photographs of well-painted armies doing battle on a table with nice terrain.

As for the actual battle report, I think this Necron army can take quite a few opponents by surprise. I was caught off guard by both the movements of the wraiths- the turboboosting to the left, and then the teleporting back to the monoliths. I didn't know Necrons could redeploy that well. The fact that the warriors then teleported through the portals to rapidfire makes it obvious to me that it is the Monolith that makes or breaks the army. I think Dash could have taken all warriors, or destroyers, heck, even pariahs, and it would still be a solid army with a three monolith backbone. That's a little unfortunate because I don't see Necrons working very well at 1000 points or less.

Pyriel- wrote:

I do say Kudos for winning at all with the army. But the army is based off a quarky build people are not prepared for, and taking away (IMO illegally) one of the best ways to deal with the build, ignoring the monoliths. Raise the monolith at all at it gives people an opportunity to get at what's behind it. That's far, FAR from pointless.

*sigh*
Not again!

I remember I was told to put back my landspeeder bases or get suspended when I tried to hide my speeders behind rhinos once.
Wonder if he would complain if all the fireprisms, falcons, speeders, stormravens etc etc he meets also take of their bases and find/provide covers. I mean someone is bound to have a base missing in his box.

If half the kits come with bases and the other half dont then use RAI ffs. A skimmer is not supposed to drag itself on the ground scraping a path through rock and dirt, its supposed to hover, h o v e r.
Ergo: use bases like they are intended.

Simple question:
Is there a hole underneath the monolith to fit a base pin in or not? If so it is there for a reason *hint*.

RAI can be whatever anybody wants it to be. RAW is pretty clear on this one.

From GW's website

"This box contains one Monolith. This multi-part, large plastic kit contains over 60 pieces, can be assembled with its portal open or sealed and has rotating gauss blasters. Model supplied with a large flying base"

If yours is missing the base you need to contact GW. Just because my vendetta is missing something it's supposed to come with doesn't mean I get to play it on the table surface getting cover from everything.

And a guardsmen is only about 1" tall. Put the monolith up 1" and it can see completely under it. I don't have a stand with me but the shorter stand might not be a entire inch, but if you step back away from the front of the monolith there should be plenty of room to shoot.

Taller things can still see through it if you attack the unit behind from angles and not the front of the monolith.

Not using a base changes how the model works. It's not using the base the kit is supplied with, and it's modeling to advantage.

I'm not saying that's why dash won, but I don't see how you can say that it isn't an potential issue.

If Monoliths are not supposed to be able to block LOS to units behind them, this whole army strategy is invalid.

I read Dash's Dark Eldar battle reports, and his oversized venom conversions caused quite a stir, too.

But if it gets more people playing Necrons, I like variety.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:From GW's website

"This box contains one Monolith. This multi-part, large plastic kit contains over 60 pieces, can be assembled with its portal open or sealed and has rotating gauss blasters. Model supplied with a large flying base"

If yours is missing the base you need to contact GW. Just because my vendetta is missing something it's supposed to come with doesn't mean I get to play it on the table surface getting cover from everything.

And a guardsmen is only about 1" tall. Put the monolith up 1" and it can see completely under it. I don't have a stand with me but the shorter stand might not be a entire inch, but if you step back away from the front of the monolith there should be plenty of room to shoot.

Taller things can still see through it if you attack the unit behind from angles and not the front of the monolith.

Not using a base changes how the model works. It's not using the base the kit is supplied with, and it's modeling to advantage.

I'm not saying that's why dash won, but I don't see how you can say that it isn't an potential issue.

Can you prove that older boxes had the same packaging and parts list? Also, RAW doesn't say to use what it's supposed to come with, it says to use what it comes with.

So next tournament I go to...

"You can't prove my storm ravens came with bases... They fly on the ground and get cover from all the rest of my tanks."

"You can't prove vendettas came with bases, you can't see them behind the hill because they are on the ground."

That's a ridiculous reading of the rules, not supported by the rulebook, INAT, or the spirit of the game. I hope you never run a tournament.

As far as old kits, update your bases. I would say the same thing to someone with termies in 28mms or monstrous creatures on 40mms. The game is different than it was 8 years ago, spend 10 dollars and get the approriate bases.

Regarding the LOS issue that not having it on a stand represents unless your models are modelled kneeling the width of the Monolith and angle from the head of a model would make it very, very hard (if not impossible) to see the Wraiths anyway. And I'd make you use a laser pointer to show it since I don't think the angle works.

I agree with this. Have you actually seen a monolith on a stand? Have you checked actual LOS to a wraith? If not you are making much ado about nothing.

Also interestingly, a wraith is mostly a tail and what does the LOS/shooting rules say about tails?

I've purchased 2 monoliths within the last year... no bases for either.

Can anyone with a flying stand handy tell us how tall the shorter version of the stand is?

If it's more than .5 and inch (I could be wrong but I think it's close to 1 inch) LOS can easily be taken under it.

And it unquestionably makes a difference if the monolith is elevated but still sitting on terrain to block stuff behind.

Monoliths JUST started coming with bases recently because they are being updated in preparation for the new codex. You do realize this, right? NONE of the monoliths produced since they were originally released have ever come with a base. Ever. Until they get a new codex, it is perfectly legal for them to be modeled without one, since that's the way it's been for how many years now?

And have you ever actually checked the los under a monolith that was mounted on a legal flying base? Even models that are crouching can't see under it unless they are 1" away from it and angled just right.

If you want to complain, complain about the horrible lists he is facing. Trying to say he's cheating by using his models the way they have always been is just ridiculous.

In 4th ed (and 3rd I think) skimmers automatically did not block LOS, so a flying base was not needed. Now that skimmers are supposed to be on flying bases, the base IS needed.

I don't know when they were added, but they were so I say they should be used. I think the fact that they were added is a clear sign that the intent is for them not to block LOS.

I've said it may be hard to draw LOS under it. But I garuantee that there are instances where it can be done, and to take those away can be game impacting.

I'm not complaining about Dash, or that he won. Good for him. I probably couldn't win with that army. I'm not even saying all this influenced any of his games. I'm saying that if an opponent set those down across from me I would complain to the TO. If someone complained in one of my tournaments I would make them play as if they were elevated an inch.

Feel free to disagree, I'm not going to change my mind.

If it doesnt matter then just put it up to shut people up. If it does matter then it needs to up. Either way just put it up.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:So next tournament I go to...

"You can't prove my storm ravens came with bases... They fly on the ground and get cover from all the rest of my tanks."

"You can't prove vendettas came with bases, you can't see them behind the hill because they are on the ground."

That's a ridiculous reading of the rules, not supported by the rulebook, INAT, or the spirit of the game. I hope you never run a tournament.

As far as old kits, update your bases. I would say the same thing to someone with termies in 28mms or monstrous creatures on 40mms. The game is different than it was 8 years ago, spend 10 dollars and get the approriate bases.

It depends on the TO honestly, not to mention that a 1" base is different than a flying base. I would also seriously doubt that GW would ship Vends/Valks w/o bases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:In 4th ed (and 3rd I think) skimmers automatically did not block LOS, so a flying base was not needed. Now that skimmers are supposed to be on flying bases, the base IS needed.

I don't know when they were added, but they were so I say they should be used. I think the fact that they were added is a clear sign that the intent is for them not to block LOS.

I've said it may be hard to draw LOS under it. But I garuantee that there are instances where it can be done, and to take those away can be game impacting.

I'm not complaining about Dash, or that he won. Good for him. I probably couldn't win with that army. I'm not even saying all this influenced any of his games. I'm saying that if an opponent set those down across from me I would complain to the TO. If someone complained in one of my tournaments I would make them play as if they were elevated an inch.

Feel free to disagree, I'm not going to change my mind.

If it doesnt matter then just put it up to shut people up. If it does matter then it needs to up. Either way just put it up.

How many people aside from you do you really think give a flying rat about a Monolith being on a flying base that would rarely if ever effect the outcome of anything? I'd be willing to doubt not many given the number of Necron reports where no bases can be found.

Shortest base I think is about an inch tall though I'd have to check. That being said the monolith overhangs it as the hole is in a recessed area under it. Meaning the actual space is between 1/5 to 3/4 of an inch. Trust me, 99% of the time you'll be seeing nothing. But hey, if that's what you took from the report thanks for visiting and reading

One of buddies started playing Necrons when we got back into 40k in 2006. He purchased three monoliths and none of them had a flying base.

Whether or not you think a monolith should be on a base I don't think there is any way you'll see underneath them because of their large footprint, and because of the outer rim of the monolith that hangs down lower than where the base would make contact, effectively lowering the amount of clearance gained by basing it. Maybe termagaunts could get close and shoot under because of how low to the ground they are but I can't see any basic infantry getting to shoot under.

Also, arent you supposed to ignore tails for LoS?

So you wouldnt be able to target the wraiths even if you could see their tails.

I don't know where the idea that Monoliths should be on flying stands comes from, but the boxes definitely don't have a flying base in it. The rules require you to put models on the supplied base. If there's no base, you don't put one on it.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:So next tournament I go to...

"You can't prove my storm ravens came with bases... They fly on the ground and get cover from all the rest of my tanks."

"You can't prove vendettas came with bases, you can't see them behind the hill because they are on the ground."

That's a ridiculous reading of the rules, not supported by the rulebook, INAT, or the spirit of the game. I hope you never run a tournament.

As far as old kits, update your bases. I would say the same thing to someone with termies in 28mms or monstrous creatures on 40mms. The game is different than it was 8 years ago, spend 10 dollars and get the approriate bases.

This is the far extreme that you used to try and prove your point. There's just one problem. Storm Ravens have always come with flying bases, Vendettas have always come with flying bases. So, considering you can't even buy Necrons right now in most countries, I'd say that the Monolith still doesn't come with a flying base, I've bought 3, and not one came with a flying base. The only pack that the flying base came in was a Monolith 2 pack that they sold on the GW website for a few months. So, no matter how much you complain, you can get blue in the face, quote INAT, and think it's as ridiculous as you want, point is no one is going to play their monoliths like the way you state, because they weren't supplied with bases, so I can't play them with bases by RAW. They might come with bases now (I dont think so), MY monoliths never came with bases, so thus in the rule book it states that only bases supplied with the model may be used.

Doesn't matter. It really, really doesn't matter that he didn't but his monoliths on a base. For the reasons that so many of you have stated. Great battle report, I sincerely enjoyed reading it.

#1. I have never, ever seen a monolith on a flying base, and I have played against a lot

#2. What Hulksmash says. I doubt you can see anything behind one do to the angle. (do people shoot through Eldar skimmers?)

Vitruvian XVII wrote:Also, arent you supposed to ignore tails for LoS?

So you wouldnt be able to target the wraiths even if you could see their tails.

What you call a "tail" is its body. It is kind of like a snake, where does the body end and the tail begin?

Maybe he means the tentacle things that actually connect to the base?

Blackmoor wrote:#1. I have never, ever seen a monolith on a flying base, and I have played against a lot

#2. What Hulksmash says. I doubt you can see anything behind one do to the angle. (do people shoot through Eldar skimmers?)

Vitruvian XVII wrote:Also, arent you supposed to ignore tails for LoS?

So you wouldnt be able to target the wraiths even if you could see their tails.

What you call a "tail" is its body. It is kind of like a snake, where does the body end and the tail begin?

Indeed, I have two monoliths, I think mine did come with bases, but they're almost completely irrelevant.

1) They snap the stems in about 5 minutes.
2) The area where the whole is is recessed into the bottom. On top of this, theres hanging skirt pieces which the model rests on without the stem that make it appear as if it's floating. even if you put it up on the stem, theres about a 1/4inch gap between these and the ground. Maybe, maybe 1/2 in at the edges (where the dropskirts arent). Given the length of the monolith, and the angle, the model would have to be lying completely flat to see anything underneath. Any other model would be approaching from too high of an angle (an infantry or anything really is too high) to see more than an inch or so under it before the angle you were viewing from terminated into the board.

I don't always love Dash, but this point is a pretty moot one. Flying base or no, that tactic does indeed still work just fine.

Blackmoor wrote:#1. I have never, ever seen a monolith on a flying base, and I have played against a lot

#2. What Hulksmash says. I doubt you can see anything behind one do to the angle. (do people shoot through Eldar skimmers?)

Vitruvian XVII wrote:Also, arent you supposed to ignore tails for LoS?

So you wouldnt be able to target the wraiths even if you could see their tails.

What you call a "tail" is its body. It is kind of like a snake, where does the body end and the tail begin?

How about at the point where it's body becomes it's tail?

The chestplate and shoulder plates are definite body. The tail is a tail.

Look in the necron codex under Wraith (pg 19) and you'll see that it is armed with claws and a barbed TAIL.


Monoliths come on flying bases according to the website, but i have bought 15 over the years and not one has ever had a flying base. On calling with the first couple i was told that the website was in error, and that they don't come with a base (but this being Customer Service we're talkiing about, that's not all that conclusive).

The codex has one photo showing a Monolith on a flying base, and four with it not on a base.

The recent battle report in WD with necrons vs Guard had Monoliths in play, and with no flying base in sight.

If fact aside from that single picture in the codex and the presumably incorrect listing on the website (as apparently very few people are getting flying bases in their monolith kiys, if any) has anyone ever seena Lith on a flying base?

There's a reason for that. The flying base will support a lith, barely, but the slightest nudge results in the lith tumbling off the base or the base snapping off.

This may or may not be what you guys were looking for, but after reading this little bit of an argument, I decided to pull out my monolith and one of my skimmer stands. This, was the result...




No difference between the stand, and the little bits at the bottom that hold it up off the ground anyways... Now, I believe this base originally was for my tomb spyder, I highly doubt it would make much of a difference LoS wise as right now it isn't even noticed (literally no change in height).

To sum up:

1. The monolith has, at least for most of the last ten years, not been sold with a base. A few may have been. I've seen a few conversions over the years to make them fly/hover, particularly during 4th edition.
2. In 3rd edition they blocked LOS like Mofos. In 4th no Skimmer blocked LOS. In 5th they block again.
3. As demonstrated, due to the physical design of the Monolith, even if you put a flying stand under there, it doesn't raise the model up to any significant degree, and it still blocks LOS except for prone models.

No harm, no foul. This is one of the advantages of Monoliths.

Looking at the studio liths i think they are missing the little tabs that make a lith hover. They sit flush to the ground.

Perhaps an earlier version of the model, with the final production lith having the risers due to its habit of snapping right off the base?

<message redacted - no personal attacks needed; keep it factual, and you won't have problems> --Janthkin

Even with a 1" stand, the overhang of the monolith will only allow you to see about .25 inch from under. And the wraiths are also on 1" stands, I dont see how you can draw LOS at all.

SonsofVulkan wrote:<message redacted>Even with a 1" stand, the overhang of the monolith will only allow you to see about .25 inch from under. And the wraiths are also on 1" stands, I dont see how you can draw LOS at all.

Wraiths aren't on flying stands, they're on 40mm bases. Maybe you're thinking of destroyers?

Since the GW Website says the monolith is supplied with a base, I think all you folks have been gipped out of your bases! Time to call up GW and have them send you some.

Maybe you'll luck out and they'll send you a whole new monolith.

This thread has accomplished two things:

1. Illustrated why the switch to "true LOS" was such a horrible, horiible idea.

2. Reminded me why I avoid tournaments.

@CT

I'm glad you felt the need to add those things. I'm glad you got something out of it.

CT GAMER wrote:This thread has accomplished two things:

1. Illustrated why the switch to "true LOS" was such a horrible, horiible idea.

2. Reminded me why I avoid tournaments.

Prior to swapping to TLOS, the exact same folks made the inverse statement about how anything other than TLOS was a horrible, horrible idea. Remember those tanks hiding in plain sight, but since there was >2 inches of "infinite height" woods in the way, they were invisible?

Or the eldar jetbike shenanigan pop out attacks, which you could clearly see, but could never shoot?

If anything, this thread should remind us why we avoid internet drama. Tournaments are a blast.

oops yea i meant destroyers.

either way, a infantry model that isnt prone wont be looking under the monolith.

*Trying to avoid getting sucked back into this thread*

I agree that against 99% of lists and 99% of opponents the whole base thing is a none issue. I personally feel like it would be an issue against my army, which probably skews my opinion on the matter.

@CT I go to lots of tournaments of 9/10 games go off without a hitch. And even if someone complains (as I said I would in this instance) the TO makes a ruling, and you move on. Arguements like this are much more an internet thing than a tournament thing.

@Targetawg You're right people will complain (and did) about any LOS rules. I don't like TLOS because it's often physically difficult to drop down to model's eye view and determine if you have sight, what to, and is it 50% obscure. There's A LOT of judgement and room for abuse. I find the level/non TLOS system less open to debate, which is IMO better.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:@Targetawg You're right people will complain (and did) about any LOS rules. I don't like TLOS because it's often physically difficult to drop down to model's eye view and determine if you have sight, what to, and is it 50% obscure. There's A LOT of judgement and room for abuse. I find the level/non TLOS system less open to debate, which is IMO better.

I'd agree with you here on both accounts:

1) It's often hard to actually do TLOS in practice. This is a problem compounded by GW putting spikey bits on their scenery, ending in a wall/buildings spikey attachment jabbing me in the face more than once. This could be a personal problem.

2) The old system was less debatable. I found it smoother in game because there was a more well defined line of can/can't see, and now arguments/disagreements do arise as to "is it 50% obscured? Or 45%?" or whether x actual model can in reality see, if you're unable to actually put your eye to his. That being said, these arguments/disputes are typically quick and relatively painless, with either an agreement being reached quickly, or a decision to just dice it off if it's truly that close to 50%. I still think I like the new system better as it feels a bit more realistic/tactical, especially as events/shops transition away from 4th edition terrain. When 5th first came out, all of those green flat pieces that were infinite height area terrain were now absolutely no protection. But, as time has went on, these have slowly been replaced by more accurate looking scenery (another positive!).

And don't be afraid to get drawn back into the thread! I never quite understood why internet discussions had to devolve into nasty shouting matches, but this one certainly doesn't have to .

targetawg wrote:
1) It's often hard to actually do TLOS in practice. This is a problem compounded by GW putting spikey bits on their scenery, ending in a wall/buildings spikey attachment jabbing me in the face more than once. This could be a personal problem.

Stab me once, Cities of Death Basilica, shame on you. Stab me twice, Cities of Death Basilica, shame on me.

I own 5 Monoliths, purchased at various times over the last 5 years. None came with flying bases.

Also, I don't understand why Dash's opponent didn't unload all of that shooting into those wraiths. The mind boggles.

Monster Rain wrote:Also, I don't understand why Dash's opponent didn't unload all of that shooting into those wraiths. The mind boggles.

This has always puzzled me a little about Dash's reports. People consistently do really silly things around him. I don't mean to bash him, but a lot of the time I don't feel that Dash wins games so much as he is really good at getting his opponents to lose them. If that makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add to that, I would say that that is a compliment. Somehow he completely confuses target priority in most of his lists for his opponents and they just do dumb things.

I'm pretty sure if I was playing him with my sisters, I would be convinced that disembarking like three or four squads in front of his monoliths to try some melta shots was a good idea.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

And yeah, it's not to knock him. The wins are wins, I'm just surprised at the grievous mistakes made in all three of these Necron reports, particularly when considering that the games took place at a tournament and ostensibly one of them at the top table.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:From GW's website

"This box contains one Monolith. This multi-part, large plastic kit contains over 60 pieces, can be assembled with its portal open or sealed and has rotating gauss blasters. Model supplied with a large flying base"

If yours is missing the base you need to contact GW. Just because my vendetta is missing something it's supposed to come with doesn't mean I get to play it on the table surface getting cover from everything.

And a guardsmen is only about 1" tall. Put the monolith up 1" and it can see completely under it. I don't have a stand with me but the shorter stand might not be a entire inch, but if you step back away from the front of the monolith there should be plenty of room to shoot.

Taller things can still see through it if you attack the unit behind from angles and not the front of the monolith.

Not using a base changes how the model works. It's not using the base the kit is supplied with, and it's modeling to advantage.

I'm not saying that's why dash won, but I don't see how you can say that it isn't an potential issue.

Please don't use the GW site for reference in this instance because they also still use the old picture for scarabs from way way back in the day and they have the ranged attack of the nightbringer wrong as well.

Also, the monolith IS SUPPLIED WITH A FLYING BASE. It is built into the base of the lith which is why it is even off the ground at all. And I'm pretty sure that on my liths there is no spot for a base to get inserted into on the bottom of any of the three liths I have purchased over the past couple years since I started playing.

*edit*
Note: Monoliths used to come with a large flying base but from what I understand (and would imagine) it was extremely unwieldy and they broke constantly so GW stopped supplying it. But obviously they don't update their site regularly except for armies that are new dex or models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oaka wrote:The terrain for this event was much better than the Alamo GT, it's a pity neither army was finished. The best battle reports, to me, include photographs of well-painted armies doing battle on a table with nice terrain.

As for the actual battle report, I think this Necron army can take quite a few opponents by surprise. I was caught off guard by both the movements of the wraiths- the turboboosting to the left, and then the teleporting back to the monoliths. I didn't know Necrons could redeploy that well. The fact that the warriors then teleported through the portals to rapidfire makes it obvious to me that it is the Monolith that makes or breaks the army. I think Dash could have taken all warriors, or destroyers, heck, even pariahs, and it would still be a solid army with a three monolith backbone. That's a little unfortunate because I don't see Necrons working very well at 1000 points or less.

Well, pariahs can't be teleported and don't get WBB so...probably not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

omerakk wrote:Monoliths JUST started coming with bases recently because they are being updated in preparation for the new codex. You do realize this, right? NONE of the monoliths produced since they were originally released have ever come with a base. Ever. Until they get a new codex, it is perfectly legal for them to be modeled without one, since that's the way it's been for how many years now?

And have you ever actually checked the los under a monolith that was mounted on a legal flying base? Even models that are crouching can't see under it unless they are 1" away from it and angled just right.

If you want to complain, complain about the horrible lists he is facing. Trying to say he's cheating by using his models the way they have always been is just ridiculous.

I think you have this backwards as the GW site (as horribly out of date for necrons as it is) has been saying for YEARS that the lith comes with a flying base. And, see my above post.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Yes it does. It comes with a large flying base.

And the INAT (which this tournament may not have used) says that models must be mounted on their flying bases.

I know we are only talking about an inch of elevation, but that inch allows you to shoot at the guys behind. And killing 9 wraiths at range is relatively easy and destroys the backbone of the army. Absolutely game changing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MVBrandt wrote:That said, many Lith boxes (if not all) don't come with one, so formally it is not required.

It comes with one now. It came with one when I owned necrons four years ago. I'm not aware of it ever coming without one. But now is the only important time anyway.

I just bought a monolith a couple months ago from GW and it did not come with a large fly base. I also know two other Cron players (they're the only other cron players I know) who have never gotten flying bases for their Liths either.

Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

And yeah, it's not to knock him. The wins are wins, I'm just surprised at the grievous mistakes made in all three of these Necron reports, particularly when considering that the games took place at a tournament and ostensibly one of them at the top table.

Dash's opponents all had the tools to beat him, but they were not able to put it together in the game.

i pointed out what the Eldar player did wrong, and I could do the same for the others. Monoliths are unkillable so you need to ignore them. You need to shoot down the deceiver so don't even bother assaulting him, because you just waste your time and give him free movement. If you are fast, hit the warriors. It is not that hard.

Blackmoor wrote: It is not that hard.

That's the thing I keep thinking. I'm not a great player by any stretch, but even I get that playing it his way is going to make you lose. So why do these guys keep doing it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, none of his opponents did the obvious... Feed him one unit to kill with his wraith-star. That unit dies on his turn from overkill. Shoot your entire army at the WS. Profit.

All his opponents had the mental block of 'Oh, necrons are bad at hand to hand. I should assault the deathstar.'

There was also the repeated assaulting of the Deceiver in the last one. I get doing it once because you don't know that he gets movement out of it, but if you do it several times in one game you're... well... you're not thinking about your moves very hard.

Monster Rain wrote:There was also the repeated assaulting of the Deceiver in the last one. I get doing it once because you don't know that he gets movement out of it, but if you do it several times in one game you're... well... you're not thinking about your moves very hard.

I did that in a game against Abaddon once. Wicked gambler's fallacy moment. I just kept thinking 'I'll get him this time'... but instead he just kept getting free consolidates. Of course, assaulting the deceiver is even sillier for the reason you listed.

At least against Abaddon you resolve the combat. The Deceiver just runs away.

pretre wrote:
I mean, none of his opponents did the obvious... Feed him one unit to kill with his wraith-star. That unit dies on his turn from overkill. Shoot your entire army at the WS. Profit.

All his opponents had the mental block of 'Oh, necrons are bad at hand to hand. I should assault the deathstar.'

Don't think an experienced player like Dash would fall for that tactic. With his wraiths, he'd probably just jump over your baiting unit to get to the meat of your army. Better yet, he'd assault in such a way that he doesn't wipe out that unit until it is your assault phase (by just moving them so that when he assaults, only a minimal number of models can attack).

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:
I mean, none of his opponents did the obvious... Feed him one unit to kill with his wraith-star. That unit dies on his turn from overkill. Shoot your entire army at the WS. Profit.

All his opponents had the mental block of 'Oh, necrons are bad at hand to hand. I should assault the deathstar.'

Don't think an experienced player like Dash would fall for that tactic. With his wraiths, he'd probably just jump over your baiting unit to get to the meat of your army. Better yet, he'd assault in such a way that he doesn't wipe out that unit until it is your assault phase (by just moving them so that when he assaults, only a minimal number of models can attack).

I disagree.

Again in the last game if the eldar player unloaded on the wraiths he could have taken them out for 4 KPs right there. Instead he thought it was a good idea to assault the Monolith for a few strength 9 attacks.

You can make a wall between your army and the monoliths with the Kans or the Wraithlords and create a Mexican standoff. The monoliths can't advance for fear of the strength 10 attacks. So Dash has to either attack with his wraiths or it will remain a standoff. As long as you separate your units enough so that he can't multi-charge or assault will take him out of his 6" res-orb range you should be fine.

3++ and two 4+ WBB saves is very tough to get by on 9 models in three separate units. Remember, since the wraiths aren't one unit you have to focus a lot fire per unit and that is a lot of potentially wasted shots if you're way over the necessary amount to drop three guys. Then they just get back up anyway if in range of the orb (which isn't hard to be).

If an entire unit dies, they don't get WBB.

Monster Rain wrote:If an entire unit dies, they don't get WBB.

They do if they're within 6" of another similar unit, they then join that unit. But yes, if an entire unit dies they won't get the second WBB from the monolith portal.

The Eldar player has to kill 3 squads of 3 Wraiths+Destroyer Lord.

The Eldar player has 2 Squads of 10 Guardians and 2X5 Dire Avengers +Wave Serpents. And anything left alive should get assaulted by the banshees and Eldrads squad.

With the use of 2 Guides on the Guardians a Doom on the unit with the Lord lets run the numbers:
10 Guardians guided shooting at a wraith squad will shoot 20 shots, 15 will hit 7.5 will wound dropping 2.5 Wraiths.
10 Guardians+ Eldrad guided against a doomed Wraiths+Lord= 4 Wounds spread around (So dead wraiths and 1 wound on the lord).
10 Dire Avengers vs. 3 wraiths= 2.22 Dead Wraiths


So he will have the lord and maybe 1-2 wraiths standing. You then assault with the Banshees and Eldrad's squad and that should finish them off. Of course you have a lot of missile launchers and shuriken catapults to do wounds too from the wave serpents, so you might not have to assault.

Instead the Eldar player was playing scared and not aggressive enough.

Blackmoor wrote:

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:
I mean, none of his opponents did the obvious... Feed him one unit to kill with his wraith-star. That unit dies on his turn from overkill. Shoot your entire army at the WS. Profit.

All his opponents had the mental block of 'Oh, necrons are bad at hand to hand. I should assault the deathstar.'

Don't think an experienced player like Dash would fall for that tactic. With his wraiths, he'd probably just jump over your baiting unit to get to the meat of your army. Better yet, he'd assault in such a way that he doesn't wipe out that unit until it is your assault phase (by just moving them so that when he assaults, only a minimal number of models can attack).

I disagree.

Actually, I was making a blanket statement about trying to bait his units. He won't fall for it.

Blackmoor wrote:Again in the last game if the eldar player unloaded on the wraiths he could have taken them out for 4 KPs right there. Instead he thought it was a good idea to assault the Monolith for a few strength 9 attacks.

You can make a wall between your army and the monoliths with the Kans or the Wraithlords and create a Mexican standoff. The monoliths can't advance for fear of the strength 10 attacks. So Dash has to either attack with his wraiths or it will remain a standoff. As long as you separate your units enough so that he can't multi-charge or assault will take him out of his 6" res-orb range you should be fine.

Since when did eldar have a chance to "unload" on the wraiths? For the most part, he couldn't see them. Secondly, he was probably wary of their 18" threat range.

Wraithlords are susceptible to 3 particle whips. Then there's the Deceiver as insurance.

Sure, eldars had a chance against Dash's necrons. But his opponent decided to play conservative. It's not much use to say, "he should've done this or done that". Overall, he took a gamble on a strategy to utilize his superior speed but it just didn't pan out.

jy2 wrote:
Since when did eldar have a chance to "unload" on the wraiths? For the most part, he couldn't see them. Secondly, he was probably wary of their 18" threat range.

Turn #5 Dash's Wraiths assaulted 2 wave serpents and took them down. At that point he was in front of the Eldar army and unengaged. The Eldar player shot at the Monoliths and then did some token shooting to the Wraiths, and then assaulted so Eldrad and the Warlock were going against the monolith.

This the the chance he had to "unload" on the wraiths.

I did not see that the Banshees where pinned though, but he has an extra farseer to cast guide.

Wraithlords are susceptible to 3 particle whips. Then there's the Deceiver as insurance.

Particcle whips will not hurt too badly, and the deceiver can't come out to play. He is slow and if he gets caught out in the open he will get Doomed and taken down.

Sure, eldars had a chance against Dash's necrons. But his opponent decided to play conservative. It's not much use to say, "he should've done this or done that". Overall, he took a gamble on a strategy to utilize his superior speed but it just didn't pan out.

What is the point of Batreps then? It is for others to learn and become better players through others mistakes. I am just pointing out what the eldar player could have done better to beat Dash, and that way others will learn as well.

Blackmoor wrote:
Turn #5 Dash's Wraiths assaulted 2 wave serpents and took them down. At that point he was in front of the Eldar army and unengaged. The Eldar player shot at the Monoliths and then did some token shooting to the Wraiths, and then assaulted so Eldrad and the Warlock were going against the monolith.

This the the chance he had to "unload" on the wraiths.

I did not see that the Banshees where pinned though, but he has an extra farseer to cast guide.

Honestly, by turn 5, it was too little, too late. If he had wanted to play aggressively, he should have done it from the onset. Some of the wraithlords shot at the monolith because they were planning to assault it. If they had shot at his wraiths, they wouldn't have been able to assault the mono. Also, how much damage do you think 3 bright lances and 3 missile launchers are going to do against wraiths with 3++ invuln's and 2 chances for WBB? For that matter, how much damage can eldar shooting do at that point? It appears that 1 wave serpent is far away and may not even be in range to drop off it's passengers to shoot.

No, they won't wipe out all 9 wraiths + destroyer lord. But what will happen is that if they disembark to shoot, wraiths would be in range to assault them on Dash's turn and get more KP's.

Wraithlords are susceptible to 3 particle whips. Then there's the Deceiver as insurance.

Particcle whips will not hurt too badly, and the deceiver can't come out to play. He is slow and if he gets caught out in the open he will get Doomed and taken down.

Particle whips should weaken the wraiths enough so that the Deceiver can finish them off 1 per round. Don't forget that the deceiver isn't the only threat out there. I'll bet that when the deceiver goes on the offense, so will Dash's wraiths. It's called threat overload, and it is what I would do. If I was playing, I would only expose the deceiver if I can safely get him into combat. If not, then I'm going to make you pick your poison. The deceiver or all my wraiths who are waiting to pounce on you. I'm sure Dash would consider doing the same thing.

Sure, eldars had a chance against Dash's necrons. But his opponent decided to play conservative. It's not much use to say, "he should've done this or done that". Overall, he took a gamble on a strategy to utilize his superior speed but it just didn't pan out.

What is the point of Batreps then? It is for others to learn and become better players through others mistakes. I am just pointing out what the eldar player could have done better to beat Dash, and that way others will learn as well.

You're right. I apologize. Options for tactics from a different perspective is always good to see in a batrep.

In this case though, I don't think it would've changed anything. Bryce already committed to his tactic and it was too late in the game (turn 5!) to really do anything about it.

Blackmoor showed the math.

There was a very good chance that it would have wiped out the Wraiths and the Lord.

jy2 wrote:Honestly, by turn 5, it was too little, too late. If he had wanted to play aggressively, he should have done it from the onset. Some of the wraithlords shot at the monolith because they were planning to assault it. If they had shot at his wraiths, they wouldn't have been able to assault the mono. Also, how much damage do you think 3 bright lances and 3 missile launchers are going to do against wraiths with 3++ invuln's and 2 chances for WBB? For that matter, how much damage can eldar shooting do at that point? It appears that 1 wave serpent is far away and may not even be in range to drop off it's passengers to shoot.

Blackmoor's point is that if you drop all 9 Wraiths, they don't GET their 2 chances for WBB. And wraiths are no harder to kill than MEQs for most weapons.

It also wasn't too little too late.

IIRC Dash was two KPs ahead after assaulting the Serpents.

Killing those units, even 3 out of the 4, would have won the Eldar player the game as there was no turn 6 for there to be a WBB roll.

Monster Rain wrote:Blackmoor showed the math.

There was a very good chance that it would have wiped out the Wraiths and the Lord.

I don't think so. One of the serpents was quite a distance away. Not sure what was in it, but it may have been guardians with farseer? It makes sense to split the farseer up with Eldrad. Anyways, it's not a sure thing that they would make it into shooting range.

Besides, they were probably heading towards Dash's deployment zone for the secondary.

Janthkin wrote:

jy2 wrote:Honestly, by turn 5, it was too little, too late. If he had wanted to play aggressively, he should have done it from the onset. Some of the wraithlords shot at the monolith because they were planning to assault it. If they had shot at his wraiths, they wouldn't have been able to assault the mono. Also, how much damage do you think 3 bright lances and 3 missile launchers are going to do against wraiths with 3++ invuln's and 2 chances for WBB? For that matter, how much damage can eldar shooting do at that point? It appears that 1 wave serpent is far away and may not even be in range to drop off it's passengers to shoot.

Blackmoor's point is that if you drop all 9 Wraiths, they don't GET their 2 chances for WBB. And wraiths are no harder to kill than MEQs for most weapons.

Not going to happen unless Dash rolls atrociously. Keep in mind that while it's only 9 MEQ's, it's also 3 different squads. There's bound to be wasted fire and most likely survivors given average rolls. Also, why would he allocate all the wounds on the wraiths? I would allocate any excess on the lord in order to have the squad survive.

Monster Rain wrote:It also wasn't too little too late.

IIRC Dash was two KPs ahead after assaulting the Serpents.

Killing those units, even 3 out of the 4, would have won the Eldar player the game as there was no turn 6 for there to be a WBB roll.

Again, negative. Eldar went first. Dash still had his bottom of 5. He'd still get his WBB's and could then go on to assault all the disembarked eldar units.

jy2 wrote:I don't think so. One of the serpents was quite a distance away. Not sure what was in it, but it may have been guardians with farseer? It makes sense to split the farseer up with Eldrad. Anyways, it's not a sure thing that they would make it into shooting range.

Besides, they were probably heading towards Dash's deployment zone for the secondary.

They are fast skimmers with long range weapons. This is irrelevant.

Even if it were true, rushing for the secondary while losing the primary seems a mistake in and of itself.

Monster Rain wrote:Again, negative. Eldar went first. Dash still had his bottom of 5. He'd still get his WBB's and could then go on to assault all the disembarked eldar units.

Not if they are all dead, which was very likely to happen.

Monster Rain wrote:

jy2 wrote:I don't think so. One of the serpents was quite a distance away. Not sure what was in it, but it may have been guardians with farseer? It makes sense to split the farseer up with Eldrad. Anyways, it's not a sure thing that they would make it into shooting range.

Besides, they were probably heading towards Dash's deployment zone for the secondary.

They are fast skimmers with long range weapons. This is irrelevant.

It is relevent if the skimmers want to drop off its passengers (whether they're avengers or guardians) to fire at the wraiths. In order to do so, it can only move 12".

Even if it were true, rushing for the secondary while losing the primary seems a mistake in and of itself.

Maybe true, but he was already committed to his strategy. It was what he was going to do had the game continued. Yeah, that was a mistake on his part, but still, he really didn't have enough time to change it.

Monster Rain wrote:

jy2 wrote:Again, negative. Eldar went first. Dash still had his bottom of 5. He'd still get his WBB's and could then go on to assault all the disembarked eldar units.

Not if they are all dead, which was very likely to happen.

That's just a difference of opinion. While you think they would all die, I say they won't. Here we'd just have to agree to disagree.

jy2 wrote:[That's just a difference of opinion. While you think they would all die, I say they won't. Here we'd just have to agree to disagree.

It's not an opinion. Blackmoor did the math.

With average rolling they would be dead. What are you basing your opposition to this on?

Dash just remarked that it was too bad this discussion was going on at the actual blog so he could respond to you guys....

Monster Rain wrote:

jy2 wrote:[That's just a difference of opinion. While you think they would all die, I say they won't. Here we'd just have to agree to disagree.

It's not an opinion. Blackmoor did the math.

With average rolling they would be dead. What are you basing your opposition to this on?

Because not all would be able to contribute. 1 squad is possibly too far away. The wraithlords were going after the easier to kill (at least for them) monoliths, and the banshees were more than half-dead and pinned. Also, not sure if the extra farseer could've contributed as I think he was in the far serpent, though that is pure speculation on my part.

@ Dodiez: We're just discussing the probablity of doing sufficient wounds to 9 Wraiths to make sure they didn't have the opportunity to WBB.

Again, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not bagging on Dash, just talking about the game.

Many games are won or lost by one party making a mistake, we're just dissecting the perceived mistake in this particular instance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

jy2 wrote:[That's just a difference of opinion. While you think they would all die, I say they won't. Here we'd just have to agree to disagree.

It's not an opinion. Blackmoor did the math.

With average rolling they would be dead. What are you basing your opposition to this on?

Because not all would be able to contribute. 1 squad is possibly too far away. The wraithlords were going after the easier to kill (at least for them) monoliths, and the banshees were more than half-dead and pinned. Also, not sure if the extra farseer could've contributed as I think he was in the far serpent, though that is pure speculation on my part.

True, I wish there were some table-wide shots here and there so we could see the whole picture.

It's all speculation, buddy. From all ends. If the eldar player was out of position, then you're right. If not, then I'm right. We can probably leave it at that.

Edit:

The fact that Dash just called Blackmoor a <redacted --Janthkin> is why I don't post there. If us discussing these things on this forum is a problem, perhaps reconsider posting them here.

Yeah, if that's the way Dash wants to express himself and respond to civilized comments and criticism, I'd rather not comment on his posts. Maybe I'll just stick to Hulk's from here on out.

As long as you read all my stuff I'll allow that Mann

Your stuff is quality AND I've never seen you flame anyone or start drama. No doubts there.

Yeah, Hulk, I've been reading your blog for a while now. I back up what Mann just said 100%.

If that wave serpent had dire avengers it could go 12" move+2" disembark+18" Shooting range=32" threat range. If they were guardians -6".

And the wraithlords can continue to attack the monoliths, it is shooting of his troops+wave serpernts (on average) should be enough to kill the wraiths. The lord is iffy, but he has a good chance at taking him down. He always gets his WWB roll so even if you do kill him he might not stay dead.

You will also want to stay as far away from the monoliths as possible with those small squads, otherwise you will get flux arched to death.

Blackmoor wrote:If that wave serpent had dire avengers it could go 12" move+2" disembark+18" Shooting range=32" threat range. If they were guardians -6".

And the wraithlords can continue to attack the monoliths, it is shooting of his troops+wave serpernts (on average) should be enough to kill the wraiths. The lord is iffy, but he has a good chance at taking him down. He always gets his WWB roll so even if you do kill him he might not stay dead.

Or you could always stay within 1" of him with your banshees and/or Wraithlords. Lest we forget:

Necron FAQ wrote:Q. If a damaged Necron Lord is unable to get
back up without being within 1” of an enemy
model is he considered destroyed, or does he go
right into combat?
A. A Necron Lord who gets up within 1" of an
enemy model must be moved directly into
combat with an enemy model within 1" of him
(neither counts as charging).

Monster Rain wrote:

Or you could always stay within 1" of him with your banshees and/or Wraithlords. Lest we forget:...

I think the Monolith can pull him out of assault (I know the veil can) It it can't, you will just take him down again.

The only thing I would question with Blackmoor's plan is whether or not you could safely get all 41 Eldar in range to shoot and assault the 9 wraiths. I'd personally feel I was taking a big risk getting that many models into an 18" window. You could have the Avengers at 18, the Guardians at 12 and 10 and the Banshees a 6 waiting to assault.

If you don't wipe out the wraiths (and IIRC a couple of Blackmoors calculations involved rounding up e.g. 2.22 to 3) then you are left with the banshees playing clean up. They should be able to kill a couple of wraiths on volume of attacks. The next turn, however, with no WBB rolls requiring teleporting, I think the Eldar are Particle whip bait. Not to mention each unit potentially eating 3d6 shots (remember the 3 ignored monoliths) that (going on rusty memory here) wound on 2's and ignore aspect armor.

After reading Dash's earlier reports I was considering ways to take it out too, and came to Blackmoor's conclusion as well. Eldar must ignore the 'liths. They don't pack enough str 9 and 10 stuff to hurt it.

Eldar massive firepower is almost a thing of the past. With about half the number of heavy weapons other armies pack these days, and short range small arms on weal platforms the Elves are a little behind the curve.

Kyrolon wrote:The only thing I would question with Blackmoor's plan is whether or not you could safely get all 41 Eldar in range to shoot and assault the 9 wraiths. I'd personally feel I was taking a big risk getting that many models into an 18" window. You could have the Avengers at 18, the Guardians at 12 and 10 and the Banshees a 6 waiting to assault.

If you don't wipe out the wraiths (and IIRC a couple of Blackmoors calculations involved rounding up e.g. 2.22 to 3) then you are left with the banshees playing clean up. They should be able to kill a couple of wraiths on volume of attacks. The next turn, however, with no WBB rolls requiring teleporting, I think the Eldar are Particle whip bait. Not to mention each unit potentially eating 3d6 shots (remember the 3 ignored monoliths) that (going on rusty memory here) wound on 2's and ignore aspect armor.

After reading Dash's earlier reports I was considering ways to take it out too, and came to Blackmoor's conclusion as well. Eldar must ignore the 'liths. They don't pack enough str 9 and 10 stuff to hurt it.

Eldar massive firepower is almost a thing of the past. With about half the number of heavy weapons other armies pack these days, and short range small arms on weal platforms the Elves are a little behind the curve.

Here is the problem and you need to solve it: How do you get KPs out of Dash's army?

Monoliths can be taken out by the Wraithlords, but if they get close they will be counter attacked by the Deceiver. You can Fortune the Banshee's Wave Serpent and fly strait at the Warriors, but you will never be able to get into assault with them. If you fly up to them they will just portal through the Monoliths and be out of assault range. So what can you do? The only hope is to bait Dash into assaulting with his wraiths. Those are the only kill points you have a chance at getting.




I did not round up. That is why you may need to assault to take out a straggler or 2.

There is also the Wave Serpents shooting. Although Missile Launchers are a bad weapon for the task at hand, if they shoot frag missiles into the bunched-up/Doomed Wraiths before the small arms fire you should drop a few (they also get to shoot TL Shuriken Catapults within 12" to add some more wounds).

Now in turn 5 the banshees are pinned so they are out of it, but in my first calculations I did not see that he had an extra farseer in the mix. So the Farseer can guide the guardian squad, and Eldrad can guide one guardian squad+Doom 2 wraith squads.

With the use of 2 Guides on the Guardians and 2 Dooms on a unit and the unit with the Lord lets run the numbers:
10 Guardians guided shooting at a wraith squad will shoot 20 shots, 15 will hit 7.5 will wound dropping 2.5 Wraiths.
10 Guardians+ Eldrad guided against a doomed Wraiths+Lord= 4 Wounds spread around (So dead wraiths and 1 wound on the lord).
10 Dire Avengers vs. 3 Doomed wraiths= 3.33 Dead Wraiths

So if everything worked out average, he would have .5 wraiths (so a 50% change of killing it) and a lord with 2 wounds left. The wave serpents shooting either should have chewed them up a little if they shot before hand, or they can pick off the left overs. I would not have shot the wave serpents first myself because you can't do this math on the fly, so they really need to kill that last wraith if he is still there. If he isn't then you can shoot missiles into the lord which will hurt him.

Assaulting the lord: Eldrad can do one wound and the Guardians can do 1 wound. You really want to kill him before the guardians swing because he attacks at the same time as them and ignores Inv saves so he might hurt Eldrad badly.

Let me give a note here: I am a foot Eldar player and so I am very use to doing this with Guardians and Dire Avengers. Eldrad and the combinations of his powers comes as second nature to me. The player was a Mech Eldar player and has a totally different frame of mind, and references. So it is very unlikely that he would have even thought about pulling this off.

Good points Blackmoor. It still leaves me with the concern that I'd get plastered with Large blasts the following turn. Doesn't getting all those units into firing range bunch them up a bit?

I've played all varieties of Eldar over the years (about 18) and have had very little luck with anything outside a transport since 4th edition. The volume of cheap transports mounting heavy weapons has become daunting to me. (not that this applies here though).

Kyrolon wrote:Good points Blackmoor. It still leaves me with the concern that I'd get plastered with Large blasts the following turn. Doesn't getting all those units into firing range bunch them up a bit?

There is no question that it will not be pretty in the next round before the survivors can jump in the serpents. You have long odds, but at this point of the game you are behind by 2 kill points so you have to make something happen, and nothing else in Dash's Army was going to die.

I think that the Eldar players best bet in the beginning of the game was to go for a 0-0 tie, and if Dash made a mistake try to take advantage of it, but it was just a bad match-up.

Blackmoor wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Or you could always stay within 1" of him with your banshees and/or Wraithlords. Lest we forget:...

I think the Monolith can pull him out of assault (I know the veil can) It it can't, you will just take him down again.

The Monolith Portal can remove him, but at the cost of firing a Particle Whip.

I would just like to say, last night I played a planetstrike game against a buddy of mine, we did a 3 on 1 battle where the 3 attackers took 1500 points each and the defender got 4500 points. I took 9 wraiths and a d.lord and in 3 turns (which is all we got to unfortunately) of the game with the wraiths being in CC or getting shot by land raiders, I didn't lose a single one. I had NO monoliths in this either. They took on three 10 man black templar squads all with power weapons and the like but unfortunately I wasn't rolling terribly great so there was still 1 man left in each squad before we quit. They took out a rhino on turn 1 without the lords help. And they had just started working on the command squad.

So...to all the people saying that massed fire would put down 9 wraiths. I disagree, especially since my last squad didn't get on the board til turn 2 so I only 6 wraiths on at first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackmoor wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Or you could always stay within 1" of him with your banshees and/or Wraithlords. Lest we forget:...

I think the Monolith can pull him out of assault (I know the veil can) It it can't, you will just take him down again.

What, just the necron lord? No, the monolith can not teleport just the lord. He "must" be attached to a squad that gets teleported.

Wow, good catch Kevin949. I just re-read the rules for the Power Matrix and you're totally right.

I never realized that before.

I can't take the credit for that, I read about it on here a while ago. Made the same mistake myself when I first started playing (just a couple years ago).

Another thing to note, about the veil of darkness, you can't take multiple lords attached to one squad in the teleport move. That's how I read it at least.

Dakka Dakka standard procedure # 234.6B Revision 6

1. Read a thread about DoP in a tournament.

2. Find any, tiny, little, itty bitty way, to say he's cheating.

3. Post for 10 pages about it.

Really fellas... lets get on. If the TO let it go, the TO let it happen. It's his tournament. Period. It's legal, as a direct result.

Congrats DoP.

Cottonjaw wrote:Dakka Dakka standard procedure # 234.6B Revision 6

1. Read a thread about DoP in a tournament.

2. Find any, tiny, little, itty bitty way, to say he's cheating.

3. Post for 10 pages about it.

Really fellas... lets get on. If the TO let it go, the TO let it happen. It's his tournament. Period. It's legal, as a direct result.

Congrats DoP.

I think that most people were on Dash's side in this rules argument (monoliths not being on a flying stand).

I don't even know what you're talking about, Cottonjaw.

As blackmoor pointed out, the posters in this thread have overwhelmingly sided with Dash on the subject of flying bases.

You're right. It just seems like everytime theres a DOP tourney thread, there is at least 1 accusation of flagrant, world ending cheating.

Yeah, and then the people reading the thread (as happened in this case) tell the person who had the rules wrong where they erred.

I don't see what the problem is.

It would be easier to just quell any argument by just getting a flight stand, drilling out the bottom and put in the base using the smaller flight stick. Either that or just glue a flying base on the bottom of the monolith. This is a classic case of models badly interacting with the rules.

thehod wrote:It would be easier to just quell any argument by just getting a flight stand, drilling out the bottom and put in the base using the smaller flight stick. Either that or just glue a flying base on the bottom of the monolith. This is a classic case of models badly interacting with the rules.

I say we call up GW and see if they'll package it with one of the new skimmer stands that the stormraven and valkyries get. Then we can have some really fun arguments!

And when the monolith falls off the stand...epic destruction.

Mannahnin wrote:Yeah, if that's the way Dash wants to express himself and respond to civilized comments and criticism, I'd rather not comment on his posts. Maybe I'll just stick to Hulk's from here on out.

I found myself going to Hulk's blog for the first time with this business in a strange hope that maybe in a different venue things would be better and more civilized (as advertised). After reading the silliness in the comments of the Necron reports, I see that is not the case.

Hulksmash, you've always been very respectful and come across as a great and knowledgable guy on the forums and your blog. I am not sure why you're saddling your blog with the drama. How hard is it for someone to get their own blogspot account so that you can leave yours just to yourself?

@Petre

I offered for a variety of reasons to allow him to write on my blog. One of them was to draw more people to my blog. Which has worked relatively well. My articles aren't going to change in approach, content, or style. If you want to avoid his posts that's absolutely fine. I do that with some of the multi-author blogs out there. I'd hope you wouldn't stop reading my articles just because Dash also posts there but that's entirely up to you. Hope to see you around.

I imagine I will still be checking out your posts. I've liked your 'anti-JOTWW' BRs.

Just have to figure out what the blogspot url is to filter one blogger on a site.

Sigh, I think of a lot of Dash's opinions and battle reports. But man, he's either got a hot and aggressive temper, or a natural gift for being abrasive, or just a natural crude turn of phrase. Or something.

I am curious as to how Blackmoor thinks he would get the contents of every transport with LOS to the Wraiths all on the same turn without some terrible mistake or the Necron player's part or some really interesting assault luck involving Wraiths against a Wraithlord. To me, his scenario is nigh impossible to pull off. It's just too bad Dash had to phrase it like that.

All of the above.

Also most of his opponents don't seem to be too experienced, or at least too experienced fighting necrons..

As to the other, it is nigh impossible. The nigh impossible tends to crop up 9 times out of ten, against me..

hey dash, i like your wraiths. flower power!

Slightly OT, anyone know what model is DoP is using for the Deceiver? I am assuming it is fits with the the flower-power theme of the Wraiths, but with the angle of the photos I can't figure out what it is.

It's a bunch of vines with pumpkins growing in them and holding an axe. No clue what that is for.

whoadirty wrote:Slightly OT, anyone know what model is DoP is using for the Deceiver? I am assuming it is fits with the the flower-power theme of the Wraiths, but with the angle of the photos I can't figure out what it is.

It's a Malifaux mini, iirc.

It's not a regulation hieght Deceiver

It's not a regulation ANYTHING Deceiver, since it's not a Deciever It's a Pumpkin

That said, this IS the Deceiver we're talking about...

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:In 4th ed (and 3rd I think) skimmers automatically did not block LOS, so a flying base was not needed. Now that skimmers are supposed to be on flying bases, the base IS needed.

I don't know when they were added, but they were so I say they should be used. I think the fact that they were added is a clear sign that the intent is for them not to block LOS.

I've said it may be hard to draw LOS under it. But I garuantee that there are instances where it can be done, and to take those away can be game impacting.

I'm not complaining about Dash, or that he won. Good for him. I probably couldn't win with that army. I'm not even saying all this influenced any of his games. I'm saying that if an opponent set those down across from me I would complain to the TO. If someone complained in one of my tournaments I would make them play as if they were elevated an inch.

Feel free to disagree, I'm not going to change my mind.

If it doesnt matter then just put it up to shut people up. If it does matter then it needs to up. Either way just put it up.

My only problem with any arguement that the Monolith needs to be on a flying base is in the fact that the Monolith doesn't have a slot FOR said flying base. There is a slot for a standard stick base (such as destroyers use), but that base will do nothing for the LOS. All it does is move the gravity point to the middle so the model will be able to sit on uneven terrain better in some situations (and rare at that).

IF the lith had a cross-slot for a large flyer base, then I could accept it needing one, but it does not, and GW has never required us to custom mod our models JUST to fit a base to it (by default, though people do this of their own accord). I know we have to mod for certain characters and equipment, but a base is a much different story.

Kevin949 wrote:It's a bunch of vines with pumpkins growing in them and holding an axe. No clue what that is for.

Blackmoor wrote:

whoadirty wrote:Slightly OT, anyone know what model is DoP is using for the Deceiver? I am assuming it is fits with the the flower-power theme of the Wraiths, but with the angle of the photos I can't figure out what it is.

Glad for that second picture. I kept looking at zoomed in pics during the battlerep and kept thinking "how the hell is that allowed? That thing is as tall as a grot" Ok now I can tell its closer then I thought. First time I got around to reading a battle rep of his wraith wing. I can see how that would be such a bitch to play against. Hes seriously got his army covered no matter how you go at it. His wraiths are hard as nails, and harder to keep down, his Lord will cause serious damage to pretty much everything, so if you ignore those and go for his liths, well theres a friggin stargod there to kick your teeth in. I think with my Orks, Id just go all out as much as possible on the wraiths/lord first and try to KO as much as possible in one assault. Im sure that would be hard to do but really how else would you play against that?

With orks?

Lootas to gun down the wraiths and Ctan (and anything else for that matter...)

Deffrollas to plow under the Liths, preferabl with a KFF aboard to ward off those nasty Particle Whips

A Deffrolla battlewagon is cheaper than a lith, and a good deal faster

Many Kanz with a KFF mek nearby (wraiths will have a hard time punching through them, and they are about the same cost ) They are dead if the Deciever engages them, but he has to get close for that..


You can also greentide the wraiths. Bury them in bodies, beat them in combat if possible to sweep them. If he pulls them out of CC with the liths he isn't bombing your battlewagons

Ghazkull will put the whipsmack down on a Monolith, no questions asked.

Any Warboss will, really.

To be frank, Monoliths aren't nearly as tough as the whiners would make out.

They are immune to extra dice from melta, monstrous creatures etc, but can be torn apart like wet cardboard by powerfists, DCCW etc.

Of course everyone spams melta as anti-tank and calls it good, so they appear tougher


I find the complaining amusing, because the players (usually imperial) who are complaining about the melta resistance are in much the same position my orks find themselves in dealing with Imperial Land Raiders..

Orks have no Melta (unless you count one highly unreliable Wierdboy power that might come up at random..)

Orks have no MC's to pull tanks apart with, or any other neat wargear (chainfists etc) that would give them extra dice vs AV 14. (well, there are tankbusta bombs unfortunately you have to take Tankbustas to get those..)

We have to rely on DCCW and Powerklaws (and Deffrollas, but hey, we don't have any S 10 guns ;0) )

Powerfists? Like wet cardboard? Not except for the S10 ones. And those are hardly a dime a dozen.

S 9 ones are though

Ok. so more like dry particle board then (for powerfists, point still stands for DCCW), but the same applies to Land Raiders too.

There is a pretty decent chance that a charging powerfist/klaw (or any other weapon) hitting at S 9+ or a DCCW will get at least one Pen.

A dedicated CC dread like a 4 DCCW Dredd will flatten a Monolith fast, as will a really big and ugly MC (even though they don't get the extra d6, they are still S 9 + with several attacks.)

Even a regular shoot and smack dreadnought has a decent chance of messig one up in CC.

Don't all powerfists double strength? How do you get an odd number like 9?

Furious charge.

Nobz and Blood Angels and whatnot.

I thought living metal didn't let you get the +strength bonus for furious charge

Most places, in my experience, give the strength bonus for furious charge on a monolith.

A competitive TWC SW list(better than the batrep one) will plow through that 3 mono list.

Five attacks of S10 PF/TH will own anything on the charge.

And SW lists are everywhere on the major tournament scenes, atleast for the past year.

SonsofVulkan wrote:A competitive TWC SW list(better than the batrep one) will plow through that 3 mono list.

Five attacks of S10 PF/TH will own anything on the charge.

And SW lists are everywhere on the major tournament scenes, atleast for the past year.

Actually, they won't own a wraith-wing, which is the point. It doesn't matter that they're STR10, STR15, STR20. I still have 3++ saves, two chances to get back up, and can teleport myself out of combat at will to come back for some more. Add a dollop of T6 that ignores armour and invulnerable saves, make the whole unit more mobile than the TWC, and combat is probably even going to end up tied before I teleport out. If I'm facing a TWC heavy army, the Wraith-Wing isn't going to run around the board looking for targets - Missile Launcher spam doesn't scare a monolith.

The problem is that the TWC are fast and they're one of the things in the game that can pretty reliably take down those monoliths.

TWC are one of the reasons that the Nightbringer regularly shows up in my lists.

The Nightbringer (and the Deceiver) can both beat down some TWC - I'm just refuting the idea that Space Wolves with a unit of TWC in them are automatically doom to Monoliths.

Ah, I agree with that.

Though the Nightbringer does ID them.

Dash - you only get two chances if one member of the wraith mob is alive. IF all 3 from one unit die the you only get 1 WBB roll, as you cannot pull them through the monolith

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dash - you only get two chances if one member of the wraith mob is alive. IF all 3 from one unit die the you only get 1 WBB roll, as you cannot pull them through the monolith

My understanding of the rule is that if all three from one unit die, you get no WBB. If there's another unit within 6", you then join that unit. The second WBB would come from the casualty unit being joined to the closest unit, which is in turn teleported through a monolith.

Dashofpepper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dash - you only get two chances if one member of the wraith mob is alive. IF all 3 from one unit die the you only get 1 WBB roll, as you cannot pull them through the monolith

My understanding of the rule is that if all three from one unit die, you get no WBB. If there's another unit within 6", you then join that unit. The second WBB would come from the casualty unit being joined to the closest unit, which is in turn teleported through a monolith.

Check the wording again. As I recall (and, admittedly, it's been a LONG time since I've played Necrons myself), only the models that *pass* WBB get to join the closest unit; the downed models were never part of the second unit, and so pulling the second unit through doesn't do anything for them.

Janthkin wrote:Check the wording again. As I recall (and, admittedly, it's been a LONG time since I've played Necrons myself), only the models that *pass* WBB get to join the closest unit; the downed models were never part of the second unit, and so pulling the second unit through doesn't do anything for them.

This is correct.

If the entire unit falls down, only the ones that get back up join the nearest unit.

<text redacted; keep snide and snarky remarks OUT of your posts --Janthkin>