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Post by: Shayden
Why? Everywhere I look people are hating on the Space Marines! I understand that they are very popular with newbies, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason. Are they just considered cheap? Is it because of Matt Ward? Help me out here!
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Post by: purplefood
They represent a lot of codeci even though they are relatively rare in the background.
Most of the codeci are also so astoundingly similar people can just jump from 1 codex to another without having to actually do much...
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Post by: Nerivant
I've seen more "why the hate" than "hate" threads this week.
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Post by: purplefood
Nerivant wrote:I've seen more "why the hate" than "hate" threads this week.
Ironic isn't it?
Can we make a "I hate why hate threads" thread?
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Post by: Juvieus Kaine
purplefood wrote:Nerivant wrote:I've seen more "why the hate" than "hate" threads this week.
Ironic isn't it?
Can we make a "I hate why hate threads" thread?
Don't see why not. Go for it 
There isn't so much hate for Space Marines, just a few of them. Ultramarines for being everywhere and somewhat bland (personal), Blood Angels for... urm... well Wardism I guess. And Space Wolves for being very cookie-cutter - typical Razorback/Long Fang/Rune Priest/ TWC lists... apparently (yet to see it myself).
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Post by: Shayden
It seems I've hit a nerve... 
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Post by: Ascalam
If GW supported the rest of the universe as thoroughly as they did the Space Marines (new codex every edition, new models and options every time etc) there would eb a good deal less hate.
I have no issue with Space Marines being a cool faction (s). I do take issue when GW plays favorites and lavishes everything on the boys in big shoulderplates, and nothing on anyone else.
The new Dark Eldar release, and the rumored Necron release are doing a lot to help the state of irritation with GW's posterboys, but one has to wonder how many editions it will be until they see another update following this one 
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Post by: infinite_array
Why the hate?
1. The miniatures. The Space Marines, in all their various flavors, have the most plastic kits available (TWC excluded). Some Codices *coughNIDScough* are still waiting for model releases.
2. The amount. We've now got the Blue Marines, the Grey Marines, the Silvery-Grey Marines, the Red Marines, the Green Marines and the Black marines. 6 Codices that take away from other codex updates (although, the Black and Green marines are starting to look a little dusty). 6 Codices that could easily be consolidated into a single book.
3. The Ride. Getting on the bandwagon is easy enough. And when you feel as if you're amongst friends, why would you want to get off?
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Post by: Creeping Dementia
Shayden wrote:Why? Everywhere I look people are hating on the Space Marines! I understand that they are very popular with newbies, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason. Are they just considered cheap? Is it because of Matt Ward? Help me out here!
I think a lot of it is just people getting tired of playing nearly every game against Marines. As a non-Marine player, its just kinda annoying to be playing against the same army all the time. Sure, there are different colors, but from my perspective they aren't 'that' different when it comes to playstyle.
That said, I don't 'hate' them, just kinda tired of them.
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Post by: purplefood
EDIT:Never mind
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Post by: infinite_array
purplefood wrote:EDIT:Never mind
Wait, what? What were you going to say?
The world demands answers!
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Post by: purplefood
infinite_array wrote:purplefood wrote:EDIT:Never mind
Wait, what? What were you going to say?
The world demands answers!
The world can keep demanding then can't it...
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Post by: Vaktathi
Shayden wrote:Why? Everywhere I look people are hating on the Space Marines! I understand that they are very popular with newbies, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason. Are they just considered cheap? Is it because of Matt Ward? Help me out here!
Several reasons. Few people actually hate Space Marines, but rather the extent of their presence and the attention given to them.
Space Marines are the smallest fighting force in the 40k universe, small enough that 99% of the Imperium's conflicts never see one, and that they are nothing more than a myth to most Imperial citizens. Yet they comprise half the army books. These books often share 80% or more of their units/weapons/wargear and one can easily move between these armies changing a dozen or fewer models, often none. There's a continual pressure to take the smallest diversions in SM armies and use them to make different books, even if they were adequately represented by mere army composition before, or use stuff like simple FoC or weapon swaps. You've got the Chaos Space Marine Legions, huge bands of marines no longer bound by Imperial dictates and probably the most varied group in the 40k universe all sharing one book while tiny Loyalist SM chapters with minor operational differences get their own army books. You have the Imperial Guard, the largest fighting force in the galaxy and another extremely varied fighting force able to produce many competitive and varied builds within one book yet they can't do the same for loyalist SM's. There's an oversaturation of Space Marines and this takes away efforts from other armies.
Each SM book that comes out takes development & marketing time, 4-12 months of release pipeline at least, meaning for each space marine book, you're looking at 10 months or more between non- SM books minimum generally and usually more. There's huge resources devoted to Space Marine marketing and advancement while it is often felt that other forces, that could be made just as popular if given the resources, are ignored. There were 17 Marine Codex books released from when DE got their first book to their update last year. *SEVENTEEN*.
Additionally, Space Marine fluff and background has, in many people's opinions (including my own) has been taking a steady decline in terms of quality for several years. There's a move away from the "cleanse/purge/kill the heretic" type Space Marine, who looks rather techy and brutal, towards more "knights in SPAAACE" spouting off "for the honorable glory of the gloriously glorious honor of glory!" or "wolfmcwolferson with his wolfbrethren riding his wolf while wielding wolfweapons" etc. There's much more of a 'bad internet fanfic' feel to much of the SM fluff of late.
So basically it's a combination of oversaturation, overexposure, decreasing fluff quality and neglect of other armies which further reinforces GW's efforts towards SM armies because the neglected other armies end up not doing well...because they're neglected because too much attention is given to SM's. Or at least that's what is felt.
(in before copy/paste "SPACE MARINES PAY FOR EVERYTHING ELSE" nonsensical response)
EDIT: Also, as others have noted, it's also annoying showing up to the store and of the 5 tables in play, 3 are Marines vs marines, and the other 2 are Marines vs Something Else.
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Post by: SickSix
I don't hate SM. I don't even hate Ultramarines. I do get frustrated with how GW neglects the rest of the game to pile on the love for their select favorites.
Fluff wise I really only hate Spacwolves. Leman Russ is a tool. 
But it does get tiring with 7 out of 10 opponents play power armor.
Every IP needs it's flagship or franchise player so to speak. But to neglect the rest of the IP in the ways GW has done to overly favor it's franchise player, probably does more harm to the hobby than good.
(saying all that I am doing a SM army after my Tau are finished. But at least I started a xeno!)
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Post by: gaovinni
I agree that the space marines are getting way too much love from GW. One codex in my opinnion would be enough and I'd like to see more of the models coming out that some other armies don't have yet. My brother collects nids and would like to have certain units but would have to convert them and he doesn't really like to convert that much.
And a side note, I myself collect marines as my primary army.
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Post by: Zakiriel
I agree, make it one codex for all Space Marine flavors, including the special FoC as needed.
It's like they have been selling essentially the same book with 2 different pages and changed colors on the pictures for far to long.
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Post by: gaovinni
I like the way the special characters with chapter tactics work. Using that idea a single marine codex would work well in my opinnion.
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Post by: purplefood
I disagree.
You could do all of them in about 3 maybe 4 codeci...
I would shift the focus from SM to IG personally...
Normal people fighting against the monsters of nightmares is much more grimdark...
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Post by: gaovinni
You are right. The guard is more numerous and everywhere. And they are the basic troops of the imperium. They should be focused on more.
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Post by: Kanluwen
purplefood wrote:I disagree.
You could do all of them in about 3 maybe 4 codeci...
I would shift the focus from SM to IG personally...
Normal people fighting against the monsters of nightmares is much more grimdark...
And as has been said before: shifting focus from SM to IG would rebalance a lot of the game...but 40k would also lose the most iconic and easily identifiable faction as its poster boys.
People aren't drawn in by the grunts in the mud dying to hold a tiny piece of ground. They're drawn in by the guys in the spotless armor, striding across the field and shrugging off fire while smiting the foe.
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Post by: purplefood
I can see that...
Maybe just give the other factions a bit more support instead then.
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Post by: Melissia
infinite_array wrote:2. The amount. We've now got the Blue Marines, the Grey Marines, the Silvery-Grey Marines, the Red Marines, the Green Marines and the Black marines. 6 Codices that take away from other codex updates (although, the Black and Green marines are starting to look a little dusty). 6 Codices that could easily be consolidated into a single book.
Seven . You also have the whiny marines of the CSMs.
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Post by: Kanluwen
But here's the rub. Even if support for Space Marines was cut to virtually nothing, Tyranids got a dozen kits, Tau got a dozen kits, both flavors of Eldar got a dozen kits, Necrons and Orks got a dozen each, and then Guard/Marines between the two of them got 5-6--there'd still be complaining.
I mean, all honesty--look at what we've been hearing in threads about Warhammer Forge or the new Eldar stuff. People are already wanting them to "move on from Eldar"--and this is the first time Eldar have seen the inside of an IA book.
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Post by: Melissia
Indeed, some people are really just that stupid.
Also, 10,000 posts? I need a life.
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Post by: Mr Nobody
I've played for five years, and I've only ever faced something other than marines twice, they've made the game very stale for me.
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Post by: Shayden
Melissia wrote:Indeed, some people are really just that stupid.
Also, 10,000 posts? I need a life.
Do you think it's strange that I feel honored by having the 10,000th post by Melissia being on one of my threads? Because I don't!  Automatically Appended Next Post: You guys are giving some very good arguments! Keep it up!
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Post by: SickSix
Mr Nobody wrote:I've played for five years, and I've only ever faced something other than marines twice, they've made the game very stale for me.
And this is the keynote. It's bad for the game mmmkay
('it' being Space Marine oversaturation)
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Post by: Kanluwen
SickSix wrote:Mr Nobody wrote:I've played for five years, and I've only ever faced something other than marines twice, they've made the game very stale for me.
And this is the keynote. It's bad for the game mmmkay
('it' being Space Marine oversaturation)
I've played for 14 years now. Have had nothing of this "oversaturation of Marines".
I've faced exactly six Marine players in my area over that 14 years.
There's no truth to this idiotic rumor of "oversaturation". It's simply overblown, because more often than not everyone has at least one Marine force that they can bring out.
Try changing up missions, try playing campaigns from the ground up, et al. Just do something that encourages people to work on something other than Marines and you will see a drop in Marine players, I can almost 100% guarantee it.
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Post by: Cerebrium
They're just...bland. The absolute average. The mean.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Kanluwen wrote:I've played for 14 years now. Have had nothing of this "oversaturation of Marines".
I've faced exactly six Marine players in my area over that 14 years.
There's no truth to this idiotic rumor of "oversaturation". It's simply overblown, because more often than not everyone has at least one Marine force that they can bring out.
Try changing up missions, try playing campaigns from the ground up, et al. Just do something that encourages people to work on something other than Marines and you will see a drop in Marine players, I can almost 100% guarantee it.
Having played in multiple metro areas in severals states, it was the rare store where Space Marines were only a plurality. Almost everywhere I've played SM's have been the majority of armies present, or eventually became so. Just because your area may not be so (in which case I do envy you) doesn't many others aren't. Especially large tournaments, look at the Adepticon attendance records for 40k and you'll see what I mean.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Vaktathi wrote:Kanluwen wrote:I've played for 14 years now. Have had nothing of this "oversaturation of Marines".
I've faced exactly six Marine players in my area over that 14 years.
There's no truth to this idiotic rumor of "oversaturation". It's simply overblown, because more often than not everyone has at least one Marine force that they can bring out.
Try changing up missions, try playing campaigns from the ground up, et al. Just do something that encourages people to work on something other than Marines and you will see a drop in Marine players, I can almost 100% guarantee it.
Having played in multiple metro areas in severals states, it was the rare store where Space Marines were only a plurality. Almost everywhere I've played SM's have been the majority of armies present, or eventually became so. Just because your area may not be so (in which case I do envy you) doesn't many others aren't. Especially large tournaments, look at the Adepticon attendance records for 40k and you'll see what I mean.
That's the point I'm making Vak.
Tournaments will, of course, attract Marine armies. Marine armies do relatively well in tournament play with how forgiving they are.
If people actually step back and stop pushing tournaments so hard, it becomes an entirely different story.
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Post by: mcyeatman
A SM heavy population turns the game into a list building exercise rather than a test of strategy and wit.
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Post by: Melissia
The game is almost always a list building exercise....
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Post by: infinite_array
I do believe that if you decided to play as Vanilla Marines because you read Starship Troops - and that's READ, not watched - then you've got an out.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Kanluwen wrote:That's the point I'm making Vak.
Tournaments will, of course, attract Marine armies. Marine armies do relatively well in tournament play with how forgiving they are.
If people actually step back and stop pushing tournaments so hard, it becomes an entirely different story.
Perhaps, it'd be cool to try but marines do everything well (or you can at least find a marine army that does something as well or almost as well as just about any other force and just switch over to that book), and as such it's hard to design things to encourage other armies to be played, and the basic pickup game most players want to engage in when they walk in is generally centered around playing the rulebook missions that most tournaments use that marines are generally good at.
Another issue is cost sadly, it often costs noticeably more to play an army other than Marines. I could have built my CSM's two and a half times over for what my 2nd IG army cost. That makes me a sad panda :( and discourages people from trying other armies.
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Post by: Melissia
infinite_array wrote:I do believe that if you decided to play as Vanilla Marines because you read Starship Troops - and that's READ, not watched - then you've got an out.
You should play Guard if you read it... not space marines
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Post by: Kanluwen
Vaktathi wrote:Kanluwen wrote:That's the point I'm making Vak.
Tournaments will, of course, attract Marine armies. Marine armies do relatively well in tournament play with how forgiving they are.
If people actually step back and stop pushing tournaments so hard, it becomes an entirely different story.
Perhaps, it'd be cool to try but marines do everything well (or you can at least find a marine army that does something as well or almost as well as just about any other force and just switch over to that book), and as such it's hard to design things to encourage other armies to be played, and the basic pickup game most players want to engage in when they walk in is generally centered around playing the rulebook missions that most tournaments use that marines are generally good at.
I dunno about that. Something as simple as restrictions of 3+ save units taking up extra slots in organization for campaigns does a lot for it.
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Post by: mcyeatman
Melissia wrote:The game is almost always a list building exercise....
Yes and no. You can tailor your SM list more than other races. You typically have twice the resources at your disposal.
Slow down with the posts or I'll never get the 9828 posts to get caught up.
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Post by: Melissia
Not really? I can tailor my Guard to do any damned thing I want them to. Sure it's hard to do the same with my Sisters, but that's because they have (along with Necrons) the oldest codex in the game.
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Post by: Kanluwen
mcyeatman wrote:Melissia wrote:The game is almost always a list building exercise....
Yes and no. You can tailor your SM list more than other races. You typically have twice the resources at your disposal.
Slow down with the posts or I'll never get the 9828 posts to get caught up.
I can tailor a Guard list to take on pretty much everything.
I could do that before this supposed 'overpowered' book.
It's nothing new. 40k has been a list building exercise for a long while.
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Post by: mcyeatman
Melissia wrote:Not really? I can tailor my Guard to do any damned thing I want them to. Sure it's hard to do the same with my Sisters, but that's because they have (along with Necrons) the oldest codex in the game.
Exactly! 
Thanks for defending my position.
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Post by: Kanluwen
mcyeatman wrote:Melissia wrote:Not really? I can tailor my Guard to do any damned thing I want them to. Sure it's hard to do the same with my Sisters, but that's because they have (along with Necrons) the oldest codex in the game.
Exactly!
Thanks for defending my position.
Actually, she was invalidating it.
Tailoring your list isn't hard to do. Every codex is really able to do it to pretty much the same extent Marines can.
The only difference is simply that not every codex can then with no real work at all be turned into one of two of the other ' OP' codices.
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Post by: Melissia
mcyeatman wrote:Thanks for defending my position.
I didn't. Pay attention.
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Post by: mcyeatman
Kanluwen wrote:mcyeatman wrote:Melissia wrote:Not really? I can tailor my Guard to do any damned thing I want them to. Sure it's hard to do the same with my Sisters, but that's because they have (along with Necrons) the oldest codex in the game.
Exactly!
Thanks for defending my position.
Actually, she was invalidating it.
Tailoring your list isn't hard to do. Every codex is really able to do it to pretty much the same extent Marines can.
The only difference is simply that not every codex can then with no real work at all be turned into one of two of the other ' OP' codices.
This is the model count (roughly) for each army (excluding other SM chapters).
Chaos Daemons – 29
CSM – 34
GK – 19
Dark Eldar – 29
Eldar – 27
IG – 25
Necron -13
Orks – 29
SM – 41
Tau – 17
Nids – 31
WH - 21
SM = more listly.
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Post by: Melissia
lol, you really don't understand the armies very well...
C:IG has more variation than C:SM, in fact.
There's what, seven Leman Russ variants?
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Post by: SickSix
I think I get the 'list building exercise' argument. If not correct me.
I think the point was that (with majority playing SM), 40k has become an exercise of building lists to overcome enemies/situations as opposed to adapting strategy.
Basically you buy and build 2000pts worth of codex marines and you can field a list for every situation. Some armies with fewer resources can't change their lists all that much, and actually have to just fight more tactfully/strategically. Aka use more brain power.
Does that make any sense?
*edit* well feth me! No wonder I feel limited. My tau have less than half the model options SM have! LOL
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Post by: Melissia
Not really, because tailoring your list still means you have to know what you're facing beforehand.
I know I've embarrassed some people by bringing my Guard army instead of the Sisters army they tailored their lists to destroy
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Post by: mcyeatman
SickSix wrote:I think I get the 'list building exercise' argument. If not correct me.
I think the point was that (with majority playing SM), 40k has become an exercise of building lists to overcome enemies/situations as opposed to adapting strategy.
Basically you buy and build 2000pts worth of codex marines and you can field a list for every situation. Some armies with fewer resources can't change their lists all that much, and actually have to just fight more tactfully/strategically. Aka use more brain power.
Does that make any sense?
*edit* well feth me! No wonder I feel limited. My tau have less than half the model options SM have! LOL
+1
Better put than my attempt.
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Post by: dagsta2
i just hate them because of they have a new codex every 3-5 ed mouth
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Post by: NamTaey
Why do we "greatly dislike" SM?
Reason 1-
TO MANY
Where I play, %80 of the players play some form of SM
Reason 2-
Way to many variants of the SM codex! You don't see Traitor Tau or Blood Necrons! I mean come on!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:
There's what, seven Leman Russ variants?
I don't think we can count those though since it is the same vehicle in the end.
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Post by: SickSix
NamTaey wrote:
Reason 2-
Way to many variants of the SM codex! You don't see Traitor Tau or Blood Necrons! I mean come on!
lol
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Post by: Zakiriel
@Melissia If you read the actual novel by Robert Heinlein "Starship Troopers" ,not the novel of the movie, its Space Marine armor types right at the first and then flashbacks to training and such. The IG seemed way out of place in your comment on the novel.
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Post by: ChiliPowderKeg
purplefood wrote:Nerivant wrote:I've seen more "why the hate" than "hate" threads this week.
Ironic isn't it?
Can we make a "I hate why hate threads" thread?
But that would only lead to "I hate the "Why I hate the "I hate why hate threads" thread within a matter of weeks. Nay, days even!
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Post by: purplefood
NamTaey wrote:Why do we "greatly dislike" SM?
Reason 1-
TO MANY
Where I play, %80 of the players play some form of SM
Reason 2-
Way to many variants of the SM codex! You don't see Traitor Tau or Blood Necrons! I mean come on!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
There's what, seven Leman Russ variants?
I don't think we can count those though since it is the same vehicle in the end.
I know of a great deal of people who would argue that all the seperate SM codeci are essentially the same codex with slightly different bits added on...
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Post by: Ascalam
Blood Necrons arise! Cast off your Power Armour disguises and claim Baal as your Tombworld once more
Traitor Tau would be awesome. Wasn't there a traitor commander in the Tau codex? Chaos tau could be a lot of fun
I'd love a generic 'cultist' dex, with an assortment of equipment and the ability to loot vehicles from the other races
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Post by: SickSix
Ascalam wrote:Blood Necrons arise! Cast off your Power Armour disguises and claim Baal as your Tombworld once more
Traitor Tau would be awesome. Wasn't there a traitor commander in the Tau codex? Chaos tau could be a lot of fun
I'd love a generic 'cultist' dex, with an assortment of equipment and the ability to loot vehicles from the other races
There are no 'chaos' Tau. They have no presence in the warp. But I'm sure Matt Ward will change that for us. And we'll like it!
But yes, there is a renegade Tau commander. As in defied the ethereals and all that. But he's been long dead now. However I'm sure his renegade enclave still carries on his 'teachings'.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Shayden wrote:It seems I've hit a nerve...
Hardly
It is just that this crops up rather a lot more than any real hatred as mentioned above.
If people do really hate a fictional futuristic Space Knight represented by non true scale models the size o'my thumb then they are beyond responding reasonably.
So the thread will just get replies in the vein of, "Why the hate thread?" or a flame grill from the despisers.
Either way the best thing to do is use the search engine and read the plethora of identical posts if you really want to know.
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Post by: infinite_array
Zakiriel wrote:@Melissia If you read the actual novel by Robert Heinlein "Starship Troopers" ,not the novel of the movie, its Space Marine armor types right at the first and then flashbacks to training and such. The IG seemed way out of place in your comment on the novel.
That's EXACTLY what I said!
infinite_array wrote:I do believe that if you decided to play as Vanilla Marines because you read Starship Troops - and that's READ, not watched - then you've got an out.
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Post by: NamTaey
purplefood wrote:NamTaey wrote:Why do we "greatly dislike" SM?
Reason 1-
TO MANY
Where I play, %80 of the players play some form of SM
Reason 2-
Way to many variants of the SM codex! You don't see Traitor Tau or Blood Necrons! I mean come on!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
There's what, seven Leman Russ variants?
I don't think we can count those though since it is the same vehicle in the end.
I know of a great deal of people who would argue that all the seperate SM codeci are essentially the same codex with slightly different bits added on...
I can see people saying that but it is a bit of a stretch. I mean why else would GW have a different section for Grey Knights on the website?
To tell you the truth, I'd be happy if they just combined all of the SM codeci in one codex. This codex would be called, the Space Marine Codex
There would be restrictions of course. Like you couldn't take Grey Knights with Mephiston, you would have to run a Grey Knight HQ.
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Post by: purplefood
I wouldn't be happy with that...
1 Codex straight away would be a bad low from the 6 codeci high. Better to gradually shed them instead and end up with 2/3 are maybe even 1 if they were done right.
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Post by: SickSix
But there is a valid point on the resources spent to basically print 5 minor variations of another book. Think about it. Individual chapters are supposed to be ~1000 strong. That's not even a drop in the bucket compared to the other races/armies. Yet GW spends months or longer on giving them their own book.
I think you could cut all SM chapters down to two books and make it work.
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Post by: purplefood
I would accept 2 books...
They are GWs poster boys however, they could emphasize the other races more IMO but i can understand why they push SM so much.
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Post by: SickSix
purplefood wrote:I would accept 2 books...
They are GWs poster boys however, they could emphasize the other races more IMO but i can understand why they push SM so much.
I totally believe in SM as the posterboys. However, you can still put them on posters and not give them 70% of the developmental resources.
Keep putting them on posters, and making them the video game protagonists, but bring the other races more in line when it comes to the actual game.
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Post by: purplefood
Fair enough...
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Post by: Lobokai
I would love to see the SM books separated into two books... one battle rules, equipment, variations, etc... and then a big bad book of fluff... that's it. Make them both big books and only two of them. Then GW could hold off on making all the models for everything and trickle in the new models for 6th edition.
The fluff book could end each section with one new unit for each army (something fun, but not deal breaking)
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Post by: Kanluwen
SickSix wrote:purplefood wrote:I would accept 2 books...
They are GWs poster boys however, they could emphasize the other races more IMO but i can understand why they push SM so much.
I totally believe in SM as the posterboys. However, you can still put them on posters and not give them 70% of the developmental resources.
Keep putting them on posters, and making them the video game protagonists, but bring the other races more in line when it comes to the actual game.
Once again: this is a fallacy. They don't get 70% of the "developmental resources".
As people point out time and time again--the books are similar. Do you really think they redo everything from the ground up every time?
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Post by: swuk
2 important but VERY BAD reasons why SM are abundant
the other races suck visually compared to the cream of scifi thats out there ( daleks , facehuggers , eagle from moonbase alpha etc etc ) stickoids , sickleoids & heroic scale staright humans just dont do it for me
confusing rules , expensive books ....ill play vanilla SM to ease my pain , vanilla SM = far more WYSIWYG
ive only just started wh40k and i already hate SM , bought my first SM battle box this week JUST to get my head round things , the fact that common sense dictated vanilla SM (and not my desire ) forced me to purchase SM is due to GW many compounding errors....and the reason i hate SM allready , lol
i shall initially be fielding an army of 100% bolters ( as far as i legally can ) for the same reasons...just to get my head round things
why not Black reach ? well i dont wont to be the proud owner of of 25 redundant green cornflake packet pastiches....i have taste
biology form and function = WYTYGUG = what you think you get you get = massively reduced learning curve and head space for more exotic specials / or the odd complete side that is exotic
RANT OVER , im sure many may like how x side plays or y side looks but truth be told only some of the TAU vehicles have inherent beauty and class with a hint of continuity. If GW aimed for visual coherence , form and function on the non SM sides they would win many more customers and players....be honest how many peeps play a non SM side just because its not SM rather than playing non SM because solely because they are uber cool visually in their own right
Intrinsic beauty and coherence = enduring mass appeal = a solid green shoot from which orchids may sprout
Fashion and fanboys = Mondays cool and tomorrows cornflake packet Macgiveaway
GW is not all evil , but as the UK is home much of the worlds quality scince fiction they have gone Biork nor Beatles or Bohemian Rhapsody with their universe = global sales a mere 10% of what they could be
.
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Post by: SickSix
Kanluwen wrote:SickSix wrote:purplefood wrote:I would accept 2 books...
They are GWs poster boys however, they could emphasize the other races more IMO but i can understand why they push SM so much.
I totally believe in SM as the posterboys. However, you can still put them on posters and not give them 70% of the developmental resources.
Keep putting them on posters, and making them the video game protagonists, but bring the other races more in line when it comes to the actual game.
Once again: this is a fallacy. They don't get 70% of the "developmental resources".
As people point out time and time again--the books are similar. Do you really think they redo everything from the ground up every time?
Your right. So why then does it take 3-6 months to release a new SM variation codex? They should be able to knock them all out in ONE release cycle!
Now do you see the point/perception?
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Vaktathi wrote:Shayden wrote:Why? Everywhere I look people are hating on the Space Marines! I understand that they are very popular with newbies, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason. Are they just considered cheap? Is it because of Matt Ward? Help me out here!
Several reasons. Few people actually hate Space Marines, but rather the extent of their presence and the attention given to them.
Space Marines are the smallest fighting force in the 40k universe, small enough that 99% of the Imperium's conflicts never see one, and that they are nothing more than a myth to most Imperial citizens. Yet they comprise half the army books. These books often share 80% or more of their units/weapons/wargear and one can easily move between these armies changing a dozen or fewer models, often none. There's a continual pressure to take the smallest diversions in SM armies and use them to make different books, even if they were adequately represented by mere army composition before, or use stuff like simple FoC or weapon swaps. You've got the Chaos Space Marine Legions, huge bands of marines no longer bound by Imperial dictates and probably the most varied group in the 40k universe all sharing one book while tiny Loyalist SM chapters with minor operational differences get their own army books. You have the Imperial Guard, the largest fighting force in the galaxy and another extremely varied fighting force able to produce many competitive and varied builds within one book yet they can't do the same for loyalist SM's. There's an oversaturation of Space Marines and this takes away efforts from other armies.
Each SM book that comes out takes development & marketing time, 4-12 months of release pipeline at least, meaning for each space marine book, you're looking at 10 months or more between non- SM books minimum generally and usually more. There's huge resources devoted to Space Marine marketing and advancement while it is often felt that other forces, that could be made just as popular if given the resources, are ignored. There were 17 Marine Codex books released from when DE got their first book to their update last year. *SEVENTEEN*.
Additionally, Space Marine fluff and background has, in many people's opinions (including my own) has been taking a steady decline in terms of quality for several years. There's a move away from the "cleanse/purge/kill the heretic" type Space Marine, who looks rather techy and brutal, towards more "knights in SPAAACE" spouting off "for the honorable glory of the gloriously glorious honor of glory!" or "wolfmcwolferson with his wolfbrethren riding his wolf while wielding wolfweapons" etc. There's much more of a 'bad internet fanfic' feel to much of the SM fluff of late.
So basically it's a combination of oversaturation, overexposure, decreasing fluff quality and neglect of other armies which further reinforces GW's efforts towards SM armies because the neglected other armies end up not doing well...because they're neglected because too much attention is given to SM's. Or at least that's what is felt.
(in before copy/paste "SPACE MARINES PAY FOR EVERYTHING ELSE" nonsensical response)
EDIT: Also, as others have noted, it's also annoying showing up to the store and of the 5 tables in play, 3 are Marines vs marines, and the other 2 are Marines vs Something Else.
This, basically.
Conceptually, I have no problem with them. Mutant supersoldiers in invincible power armor, used as the ultimate in force-concentrating shock troops to break hardened positions for conventional forces. That's cool, and makes sense. Mutant supersoldiers being given the authority of generals (despite acting solely according to the teachings of a book that was explicitly written with the goal of hamstringing them so they couldn't be a threat to the Imperium again, by a man who'd seen a scant handful of battles over the course of the couple of centuries the Great Crusade went on, all of which were won by swamping their enemies in tens of thousands of power armored supersoldiers...), while actively looking for tanks to punch, and who are treated as though ten could take an entire planet where tens of thousands of conventional troops failed, while being obsequiously praised in only the most nauseating of Mary-Sue tones in all their source material? Just thinking about it enough to write that made me feel nauseous.
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Post by: Vaktathi
With SM's, the development time issues are those associated with producing the book, not necessarily the rules but the pictures, stories that aren't cut/paste (for some reason every SM army needs its own description of the Predator...), layout, etc.
A big factor however is release/marketing pipeline time. GW never really has armies released closer than 5 months to each other, usually 6-10. That's to allow a release time to sink in and have its time to shine without being crowded out and cannibalized by another release and ensure product has time to move off shelves. Having 4 extraneous space marine books means an average of 24-40 extra months of marketing/release time required to get all the armies redone, making it impossible to do within the span of a single edition with GW's current business practices.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
This, basically.
Conceptually, I have no problem with them. Mutant supersoldiers in invincible power armor, used as the ultimate in force-concentrating shock troops to break hardened positions for conventional forces. That's cool, and makes sense. Mutant supersoldiers being given the authority of generals (despite acting solely according to the teachings of a book that was explicitly written with the goal of hamstringing them so they couldn't be a threat to the Imperium again, by a man who'd seen a scant handful of battles over the course of the couple of centuries the Great Crusade went on, all of which were won by swamping their enemies in tens of thousands of power armored supersoldiers...), while actively looking for tanks to punch, and who are treated as though ten could take an entire planet where tens of thousands of conventional troops failed, while being obsequiously praised in only the most nauseating of Mary-Sue tones in all their source material? Just thinking about it enough to write that made me feel nauseous.
Indeed, the fluff creep has gotten awful and crossed the line from "exaggerated enough to be awesome" to "awful fanfic/pulp comic/parody"
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Post by: SickSix
Ok Vaktathi, now I'm kinda confused. Are you with us or against us? In that Space marine releases/armies need to be condensed?
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Post by: Polvilhovoador
I don't really hate them, I just think they are boring when compared to other races, and their fluff awesomeness kinda ruin the grim dark setting IMO.
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Post by: SickSix
Polvilhovoador wrote:I don't really hate them, I just think they are boring when compared to other races, and their fluff awesomeness kinda ruin the grim dark setting IMO.
I think basic SM fluff is great. What you have to keep reminding yourself is that there are MILLIONS of human worlds and untold BILLIONS of humans in the 40k universe. There probably less than 150k space marines. So most humans have never seen and will never see a SM in their lifetime.
If you keep reminding yourself of that, their fluff is balanced. It's not like the pre-heresy days with grand fleets with thousands of marines in each fleet sweeping across the galaxy destroying everything.
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Post by: Kanluwen
SickSix wrote:Kanluwen wrote:SickSix wrote:purplefood wrote:I would accept 2 books...
They are GWs poster boys however, they could emphasize the other races more IMO but i can understand why they push SM so much.
I totally believe in SM as the posterboys. However, you can still put them on posters and not give them 70% of the developmental resources.
Keep putting them on posters, and making them the video game protagonists, but bring the other races more in line when it comes to the actual game.
Once again: this is a fallacy. They don't get 70% of the "developmental resources".
As people point out time and time again--the books are similar. Do you really think they redo everything from the ground up every time?
Your right. So why then does it take 3-6 months to release a new SM variation codex? They should be able to knock them all out in ONE release cycle!
Because the development cycle isn't just simply writing the codex, most likely.
And really---if we're going with that idea of they can just "knock them all out in one release cycle"--we end up with more codices like Tau Empire, Dark Angels, or Chaos Space Marines.
Love or hate Marines, it's stupid to encourage a "knock them all out" mentality. It does not end well for anyone involved.
Now do you see the point/perception?
No, because there's no truth to it in either case. There's just blind, unreasoning hatred and a deep seated envy.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
SickSix wrote:Polvilhovoador wrote:I don't really hate them, I just think they are boring when compared to other races, and their fluff awesomeness kinda ruin the grim dark setting IMO.
I think basic SM fluff is great. What you have to keep reminding yourself is that there are MILLIONS of human worlds and untold BILLIONS of humans in the 40k universe. There probably less than 150k space marines. So most humans have never seen and will never see a SM in their lifetime.
If you keep reminding yourself of that, their fluff is balanced. It's not like the pre-heresy days with grand fleets with thousands of marines in each fleet sweeping across the galaxy destroying everything.
~One million worlds, just over 32 thousand hives, between 20 and 60 quadrillion humans, and between six and twenty trillion in the Guard. Around 900K Marines. There are more titans on Mars, and more warships capable of leveling continents than there are Marines.
Of course, the numbers are a little inconsistent: there would have to be ten conflicts for every world in the Imperium at once for the Guard to be spread to the point of only having one hundred thousand fielded in any one campaign, yet that was the number afforded for an entire crusade (the Damocles Gulf Crusade), and they're generally portrayed as being fielded in the low tens of thousands in a theater. Thus, it stands to reason that either the one million worlds is a gross underestimate (it is only .2% of the theoretically habitable planets in the Milky Way, after all, and 40k fluff doesn't have the same restrictions that actual considerations do, meaning it's even less), or most of the Guard just sits around doing nothing. Or the one million worlds could be restricted to those with any sizeable population, with all other colonies or outposts going unmentioned. Who knows.
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Post by: Archonate
Kanluwen wrote:People aren't drawn in by the grunts in the mud dying to hold a tiny piece of ground. They're drawn in by the guys in the spotless armor, striding across the field and shrugging off fire while smiting the foe.
I have to disagree. Every writer worthy of the 'writer' title knows that, when conceiving a story, you flaw your heroes and perfect your villains. Those circumstances keep the reader captivated, wondering how the good guys are ever going to overcome their obstacles. When you do the opposite you get a dull, predictable story with no suspense. This concept is precisely why the fluff behind Draigo, Mephiston, etc. comes off as being just awful... It really is a deplorable quality of writing. As something of a writer myself, I cannot stress enough how amateur it looks.
This concept is the very reason why Dan Abnett wrote about Imperial Guard instead of Space Marines. Frankly, I believe it's why his IG books were so successful.
GW won't allow SMs to be portrayed in any circumstance of defeat. This is the root of problem that is the horrible fluff we've been seeing lately.
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Post by: Nerivant
Archonate wrote:
GW won't allow SMs to be portrayed in any circumstance of defeat.
Except... they do. Plenty of times.
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Post by: Archonate
Really? Where can I read such a story and who wrote it??
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Post by: Ascalam
They have been busily retiring or retconning famous SM defeats also.
The Sin of Damnation (where the Blood Angles lost their entire terminator company aboard the space hulk vs nids) gets no mention.
The Fall of Damnos has been rewritten from a hurried evacuation to a SM assault.
I'd not be shocked if the next codex up is codex- Lamenters, or Codex Scythes of the Emperor, with the fluff saying that they've never lost a single marine since the Horus Heresy.
It gets old, and the SM fanboys who take the heaily SM-slanted fluff (especially the mostly tepid BL books) as gospel get old quicker.
There have been a few SM losses in the timelines of the various codecii (usually 1 per dex..)
They sually go like this...
'The entire (what every company of whatever chapter) foughrt their way to the center of (whatever) and before the last battlebrother breathed his last he (for some inexplicable reason) blows the place up/kills the bad guy/otherwise wins..
How about the ones where the marines get gunned down by superior firepower or outsmarted and captured/killed?
Codex Dark Eldar has a bit less of the Marines Rule! stuff, with heamonculi experimenting with SW initiates on fenris, and using the marines as cat's paws, but generally the marines get all the good press.
*edit for more text*
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Post by: Vaktathi
SickSix wrote:Ok Vaktathi, now I'm kinda confused. Are you with us or against us? In that Space marine releases/armies need to be condensed?
Oh I'm definitely on the side that they need to be condensed.
Kanluwen wrote:
And really---if we're going with that idea of they can just "knock them all out in one release cycle"--we end up with more codices like Tau Empire, Dark Angels, or Chaos Space Marines.
What was wrong with Tau Empire for when it was released? It got several new units and wargear items and was rather good for 4th ed. It doesn't work so well now, but that's primarily a result of core rules changes more than anything else.
Just because DA and CSM books aren't well liked doesn't mean they hurried through them as fast as possible with little thought or effort. They clearly spent a good deal of time on those two books, they were radical redesigns of previous Space Marine books with a very clear vision. It's very hard to take seriously that they were the result of a hurried mentality. They had lots of time and effort put into them to make them what they were, they just took the books in a direction that the majority of the playerbase was unsatisfied with. Those books are the results of a difference in design philosophy, not hurried development and release, there is absolutely nothing that I am aware of to support that they were in fact rushed. That year actually only had two full codex releases, Dark Angels and CSM's, with a BA mini-dex in between. They were the result of Alessio's...poorly thought out design plan, something that can still be seen in 5E between the core rules (e.g. defensive weapon rules and every major gun tank in the game except non- BA loyalist preds having some way to skirt or mitigate them) and newer codecies written by authors brought on after his departure.
Love or hate Marines, it's stupid to encourage a "knock them all out" mentality. It does not end well for anyone involved.
Except for armies that would no longer have to wait for 17 marine book updates before they get updated
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Post by: Kanluwen
Ascalam wrote:They have been busily retiring or retconning famous SM defeats also.
The Sin of Damnation (where the Blood Angels lost their entire terminator company aboard the space hulk vs nids) gets no mention.
Bull. I've got Space Hulk sitting right in front of me, page 1 of the Mission Book is about the "Disaster at Secoris" and the whole Sin of Damnation debacle.
The Fall of Damnos has been rewritten from a hurried evacuation to a SM assault.
We must be reading different books.
I'd not be shocked if the next codex up is codex- Lamenters, or Codex Scythes of the Emperor, with the fluff saying that they've never lost a single marine since the Horus Heresy.
Neither of those existed during the Horus Heresy, so...
It gets old, and the SM fanboys who take the heaily SM-slanted fluff (especially the mostly tepid BL books) as gospel get old quicker.
You know what else gets old? The SM haters who take every piece of SM fluff, even where Astartes die off pretty quickly like "Soul Hunter" and "Blood Reaver" and claim that it is somehow "heavily SM-slanted fluff".
Marines die plenty in fluff. You just actually have to read the fluff to understand that.
Archonate wrote:I have to disagree. Every writer worthy of the 'writer' title knows that, when conceiving a story, you flaw your heroes and perfect your villains. Those circumstances keep the reader captivated, wondering how the good guys are ever going to overcome their obstacles. When you do the opposite you get a dull, predictable story with no suspense. This concept is precisely why the fluff behind Draigo, Mephiston, etc. comes off as being just awful... It really is a deplorable quality of writing.
The fluff behind Draigo and Mephiston comes from the author being bad. There's plenty of Guard novels that are bad. There's also Henry Zou's "Emperor's Mercy" which is a fething atrocity.
As something of a writer myself, I cannot stress enough how amateur it looks.
This kind of statement always makes me laugh.
You don't need writing credentials to recognize that Ward has trouble writing coherent story arcs.
This concept is the very reason why Dan Abnett wrote about Imperial Guard instead of Space Marines. Frankly, I believe it's why his IG books were so successful.
And this flies in the face of Abnett's stated reasons for writing about the Imperial Guard.
He has said that the reason he wrote about the Guard rather than Marines is he finds the Guard easier for people to relate to. They make for more exciting stories,
GW won't allow SMs to be portrayed in any circumstance of defeat. This is the root of problem that is the horrible fluff we've been seeing lately.
I'd suggest picking up a book, because there's been plenty of them lately.
Most notably, you have Blood Reaver--the Marines Errant are not only beaten, but beaten within their own Chapter Keep and the keep desecrated.
Vaktathi wrote:What was wrong with Tau Empire for when it was released? It got several new units and wargear items and was rather good for 4th ed. It doesn't work so well now, but that's primarily a result of core rules changes more than anything else.
It got several new units and wargear items...that were already present in the Taros Campaign book.
The only real 'new' thing in there was the Sniper Drones, Shadowsun, and the Ethereal character.
Just because DA and CSM books aren't well liked doesn't mean they hurried through them as fast as possible with little thought or effort. They clearly spent a good deal of time on those two books, they were radical redesigns of previous Space Marine books with a very clear vision.
Not really.
It's very hard to take seriously that they were the result of a hurried mentality.
... lol. Take the Dark Angels minidex. Now take the current Codex: Dark Angels. Come back and tell me that it wasn't a "hurried mentality".
They had lots of time and effort put into them to make them what they were, they just took the books in a direction that the majority of the playerbase was unsatisfied with. Those books are the results of a difference in design philosophy, not hurried development and release, there is absolutely nothing that I am aware of to support that they were in fact rushed.
Other than them coming two 40k books within the same year with a BA mini-dex in between?
That year actually only had two full codex releases, Dark Angels and CSM's, with a BA mini-dex in between.
Two full codex releases for 40k. You're neglecting the release of War of the Rings and some WHFB books.
They were the result of Alessio's...poorly thought out design plan, something that can still be seen in 5E between the core rules (e.g. defensive weapon rules and every major gun tank in the game except non-BA loyalist preds having some way to skirt or mitigate them) and newer codecies written by authors brought on after his departure.
Which is actually something that I've gone out of my way to point out repeatedly. Cavatore royally fethed the pooch and the only real way to get past those terrible rules was to make something considered 'overpowered'.
Except for armies that would no longer have to wait for 17 marine book updates before they get updated
Yeah, because clearly Dark Eldar and Necrons would have been done so much sooner if Codex: Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels hadn't been done right?
Oh...right. They wouldn't have. Because both of those books have had to undergo stupidly complex redesigns.
Not unlike what Dark Angels really needs, actually.
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Post by: Brother Coa
This question is stupid? Who don't like Space Marines?
They are the very core of 40k, when I was first introduced to it I saw a Space Marines.
If the reason because the xxx people are playing with them then that is just lame excuse for hate. In the same logic I should ate McDonald's because xxxx people are buying there to eat?
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Post by: Ascalam
Kanluwen wrote:Ascalam wrote:They have been busily retiring or retconning famous SM defeats also.
The Sin of Damnation (where the Blood Angels lost their entire terminator company aboard the space hulk vs nids) gets no mention.
Bull. I've got Space Hulk sitting right in front of me, page 1 of the Mission Book is about the "Disaster at Secoris" and the whole Sin of Damnation debacle.
The Fall of Damnos has been rewritten from a hurried evacuation to a SM assault.
We must be reading different books.
I'd not be shocked if the next codex up is codex- Lamenters, or Codex Scythes of the Emperor, with the fluff saying that they've never lost a single marine since the Horus Heresy.
Neither of those existed during the Horus Heresy, so...
It gets old, and the SM fanboys who take the heaily SM-slanted fluff (especially the mostly tepid BL books) as gospel get old quicker.
You know what else gets old? The SM haters who take every piece of SM fluff, even where Astartes die off pretty quickly like "Soul Hunter" and "Blood Reaver" and claim that it is somehow "heavily SM-slanted fluff".
Marines die plenty in fluff. You just actually have to read the fluff to understand that.
'Bull. I've got Space Hulk sitting right in front of me, page 1 of the Mission Book is about the "Disaster at Secoris" and the whole Sin of Damnation debacle.'
Should have been more specific i guess. I was referring to the Blood Angels codex. You'd think something major like that would make it into the timeline, no?
'We must be reading different books.'
Does Fall of Damnos end with the Necrons sweeping the marines off the world, with the marines staging last minute, daring evacuations and finally retreating in the face of overwhelming Necron forces? No. It ends with 'we are coming, brother, with our big barge of tanks' and the Cryptek doing the *soon, we will destroy you...' routine. Meanwhile the marines have lost a few guys and the Necrons have lost several Lords and countless warriors. Does this sound like a Necron overwhelming victory to you? I guess I must be missing a few chapters from my copy, somewhere at the end, where the marines lose?
'Neither of those existed during the Horus Heresy, so...'
Which doesn't stop them from not having lost a marine SINCE the HH then, does it?
'You know what else gets old? The SM haters who take every piece of SM fluff, even where Astartes die off pretty quickly like "Soul Hunter" and "Blood Reaver" and claim that it is somehow "heavily SM-slanted fluff".
Marines die plenty in fluff. You just actually have to read the fluff to understand that.'
I have, believe me. Generally they take about a dozen equally or better statted creatures per death. There are incidents where a single marine stands of a horde, without somehow getting pulled down, for days... I grant you that usually it's a named character, but put Marneus Calgar alone vs a thousand plus Hormagaunts and i'll be betting on the nids. Thats assuming them having not having any support beasts etc.
Marines do die, yes, but usually one at a time to forward the storyline of a single squad doing what a whole battalion of (whoever) can't. A good example would be the fight with the wraiths in FOD. Three marines die, fighting dozens of wraiths (chapter 7). The wraiths were faster, stronger, as well armoured, insubstantial and stronger, but they only took 3 marines down? If this was a wierd and miraculous thing i could accept it, but this seems to be the norm for marine casualty ratio.
There have been occasional books that make the Marines out to be a little more vulnerable. The majority, especially the more recent offerings/codexes, have made them out to be damn near indestructable, even by thing that should be squashing tem like bugs.
Also if i hear the phrase 'would not be denied' again i'll retch
I don't hate Marines ( i actually thing certain chapters are damn cool) , but i'm damn tired of them hogging the limelight all the time, while their uberness keeps creeping up. At least with the Imperial Guard books you know that the characters might well die, and that a fair wodge of them likely will by the end of the book. Marines are supposed to be good, yes, and i can accept that they can take a lot of weaker oppenents with them without batting an eye, but when the enemy is just as strong, tough and well armed as you are you shouldn't have it all your own way.
There have been what, 2 books dealing with non- IOM as the hero?
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Post by: Vaktathi
Kanluwen wrote:
It got several new units and wargear items...that were already present in the Taros Campaign book.
The only real 'new' thing in there was the Sniper Drones, Shadowsun, and the Ethereal character.
It got a lot more than most other 4E books in terms of new stuff (hell, IG's previous book actually had *fewer* units than the book before it, they'd cut two Leman Russ variants and the Griffon entirely), and without those FW units being ported into the codex good luck getting to play with them half the time. As a Tau player, I though it was a marvelous step up from the previous book.
Not really.
Yes really. Not necessarily in great ways, but yes. Humongous redesign of codex layout, heavy emphasis on 10man squads and changes to options such that minimum sized squads could no longer carry the maximum amount of weaponry, across the board changes to weapons costs, almost every vehicle repriced and given additional equipment, changes to several major wargear items (e.g. extra armor) significant HQ changes, etc.
It's rather hard to stomach that they didn't put a lot of time into the DA book. The fact that it didn't turn out great doesn't mean they didn't devote a good amount of resources to it. Likewise with CSM's. Hell, these armies were actually rather competitive for a while. They took a bit of a hit when C: SM came out under Mat Ward's authorship, but it wasn't really until C: SW came out and did what both armies do but better that they really started to look outright bad. Blame Phil Kelly for that one.
...lol. Take the Dark Angels minidex. Now take the current Codex: Dark Angels. Come back and tell me that it wasn't a "hurried mentality".
I've got both books in front of me. While yes the 3E book was a rush job, all the early 3E books were rush jobs for every faction. Aside from some copy/paste fluff (that they've done in other marine books to the same extent and for good reasons, no need to re-write what was already good to go), I'm not seeing where the 4E book was hurried. not liking it != it was hurried.
If you want hurried, look at the Tyranid book. That's a rushed "get out the door quickly" book.
Other than them coming two 40k books within the same year with a BA mini-dex in between?
2007 wasn't exactly a year they rushed out a ton of stuff. They put out two full army books, a PDF and an expansion. In 2006 they put out 3 full army books and an expansion, In 2008 they put out a new edition and 3 full army books plus an expansion supplemental. 2009 was the next closest year about as slow, with only IG, Space Wolves, and an expansion and a half released, so the two most commonly accepted powerful armies
2007 was a relatively light year.
Two full codex releases for 40k. You're neglecting the release of War of the Rings and some WHFB books.
GW put out...2 WHFB books in 2007. They put out 2 and a new edition in 2006 and 4 in 2008. low-average year. IIRC 2007 wasn't exactly a banner year for LotR either...
So unless I'm totally misremembering 2007 as a gigantic year for LotR, 2007 was one of the slowest years GW has had in general.
I'm having a hard time seeing where these books were so "rushed".
Yeah, because clearly Dark Eldar and Necrons would have been done so much sooner if Codex: Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels hadn't been done right?
In the time period it took to get Codex: Dark Eldar 3E out to Codex: Dark Eldar 5E, we had
Codex: Space Marines 3E
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3E
Codex: Blood Angels 3E
Codex: Space Wolves 3E
Codex: Dark Angels 3E
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3.5E
Codex: Daemonhunters 3E
Codex: Space Marines 4E
Codex: Black Templars 4E
Codex: Dark Angels 4E
Codex: Blood Angels PDF 4E
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4E
Codex: Space Marines 5E
Codex: Space Wolves 5E
Codex: Blood Angels 5E
My apologies...only 15 Space Marine books.
However this is also not taking into account additional lists/updates in Armageddon/Eye of Terror and the Index Astartes stuff.
Oh...right. They wouldn't have. Because both of those books have had to undergo stupidly complex redesigns.
Aside from witty comments, perhaps those armies would have gotten said redesigns a couple years earlier, or had an update in the meantime that could have served to reinvigorate the line and a couple redesigned kits instead of languishign for several years.
The big reason those armies need "stupidly complex redesigns" is that they went two editions without any support. Any army going that long without any support will need such a redesign with such a fundamentally changed playing field and advances in kit capabilities.
Not unlike what Dark Angels really needs, actually.
not gonna get into that here again, suffice to say, I find it very difficult to compare a an army that's always claimed to be very codex adherent that has gotten semi-regular updates (either as a result of being tied to C: SM or getting a new book or FAQ/Errata support that non- SM armies have never gotten) to an army that was released and almost immediately abandoned for nearly 12 years.
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Post by: Archonate
Kanluwen wrote:Archonate wrote:...when conceiving a story, you flaw your heroes and perfect your villains. Those circumstances keep the reader captivated, wondering how the good guys are ever going to overcome their obstacles....
This concept is the very reason why Dan Abnett wrote about Imperial Guard instead of Space Marines. Frankly, I believe it's why his IG books were so successful.
And this flies in the face of Abnett's stated reasons for writing about the Imperial Guard.
He has said that the reason he wrote about the Guard rather than Marines is he finds the Guard easier for people to relate to. They make for more exciting stories,
I'm well aware of what Abnett said, and I fail to see how I'm contradicting it. He's citing the same basic rule of writing that I am. People are captivated by flawed heroes because they relate more to them. These make more exciting stories because the obstacles look more insurmountable. Ascalam wrote:Codex Dark Eldar has a bit less of the Marines Rule!
I don't know, there was that infuriating piece about that captured Salamanders strike cruiser that escapes Commorragh. Remember what DE did to the Tau? I would have loved to read about them doing something just as cunning and atrocious to SMs, but GW would never allow it.
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Post by: Shadowbrand
Simply put, everyone is a little bit of a hipster and hates at least one thing just because it is popular.
Space Marines are the poster boys of the game. I play Space Wolves. So basically I play the hairy, mutated off shot, space barbarians of the poster boy.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Archonate wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Archonate wrote:...when conceiving a story, you flaw your heroes and perfect your villains. Those circumstances keep the reader captivated, wondering how the good guys are ever going to overcome their obstacles....
This concept is the very reason why Dan Abnett wrote about Imperial Guard instead of Space Marines. Frankly, I believe it's why his IG books were so successful.
And this flies in the face of Abnett's stated reasons for writing about the Imperial Guard.
He has said that the reason he wrote about the Guard rather than Marines is he finds the Guard easier for people to relate to. They make for more exciting stories,
I'm well aware of what Abnett said, and I fail to see how I'm contradicting it. He's citing the same basic rule of writing that I am. People are captivated by flawed heroes because they relate more to them. These make more exciting stories because the obstacles look more insurmountable. Ascalam wrote:Codex Dark Eldar has a bit less of the Marines Rule!
I don't know, there was that infuriating piece about that captured Salamanders strike cruiser that escapes Commorragh. Remember what DE did to the Tau? I would have loved to read about them doing something just as cunning and atrocious to SMs, but GW would never allow it.
Crippling or destroying two dozen strike cruisers, and cutting off all the guns of a battle barge, in addition to butchering in excess of 750 (500 active on the ground after suffering 50% casualties, less than a halfway point in the battle, and only some percent in excess of 50% of the survivors at the end managed to flee; so out of a thousand Marines, more than 75% were killed, all in the time it took the nearest neighboring noble houses (to differentiate from the ones they landed on top of) to realize something was going on) Marines in the span of a few minutes, is probably the most anyone is allowed to beat up on them. They are "everyone's" favorite little Mary-Sues, after all. 
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Post by: RxGhost
You guys are looking at this the wrong way. Every codex is written basically as propaganda for whatever army it is. Everybody's book tells about how awesome they are and how much everyone else sucks, etc.
"Here, the great hero Slab Bulkhead did smite a ULTRA SUPER HYPER CHAMPIONSHIP EDITION HIVE TYRANT 2, then when on to father 10,000 space majeen companies!"
And honestly, the whole 1000 dudes a chapter might not even be a real number. The space marines lie and obfuscate their motives ALL THE TIME. Christ, the Dark Angels kill Inquisitiors when it gets inconvenient for them and you don't think someone just stopped counting at 1000 when they sent their imperial census data in?
What sounds more heroic: 1000 Ultramarines defended their crappy planet from a hive fleet or (what probably actually happened) 100,000 Ultramarines defended said crappy place from a hive fleet?
Here's an amusing story, it should be SFW but read at your own risk: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Who_Watches_Them
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Post by: Smacks
Vaktathi wrote:Shayden wrote:Why? Everywhere I look people are hating on the Space Marines! I understand that they are very popular with newbies, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason. Are they just considered cheap? Is it because of Matt Ward? Help me out here!
Several reasons. Few people actually hate Space Marines, but rather the extent of their presence and the attention given to them.
Space Marines are the smallest fighting force in the 40k universe, small enough that 99% of the Imperium's conflicts never see one, and that they are nothing more than a myth to most Imperial citizens. Yet they comprise half the army books. These books often share 80% or more of their units/weapons/wargear and one can easily move between these armies changing a dozen or fewer models, often none. There's a continual pressure to take the smallest diversions in SM armies and use them to make different books, even if they were adequately represented by mere army composition before, or use stuff like simple FoC or weapon swaps. You've got the Chaos Space Marine Legions, huge bands of marines no longer bound by Imperial dictates and probably the most varied group in the 40k universe all sharing one book while tiny Loyalist SM chapters with minor operational differences get their own army books. You have the Imperial Guard, the largest fighting force in the galaxy and another extremely varied fighting force able to produce many competitive and varied builds within one book yet they can't do the same for loyalist SM's. There's an oversaturation of Space Marines and this takes away efforts from other armies.
Each SM book that comes out takes development & marketing time, 4-12 months of release pipeline at least, meaning for each space marine book, you're looking at 10 months or more between non- SM books minimum generally and usually more. There's huge resources devoted to Space Marine marketing and advancement while it is often felt that other forces, that could be made just as popular if given the resources, are ignored. There were 17 Marine Codex books released from when DE got their first book to their update last year. *SEVENTEEN*.
Additionally, Space Marine fluff and background has, in many people's opinions (including my own) has been taking a steady decline in terms of quality for several years. There's a move away from the "cleanse/purge/kill the heretic" type Space Marine, who looks rather techy and brutal, towards more "knights in SPAAACE" spouting off "for the honorable glory of the gloriously glorious honor of glory!" or "wolfmcwolferson with his wolfbrethren riding his wolf while wielding wolfweapons" etc. There's much more of a 'bad internet fanfic' feel to much of the SM fluff of late.
So basically it's a combination of oversaturation, overexposure, decreasing fluff quality and neglect of other armies which further reinforces GW's efforts towards SM armies because the neglected other armies end up not doing well...because they're neglected because too much attention is given to SM's. Or at least that's what is felt.
(in before copy/paste "SPACE MARINES PAY FOR EVERYTHING ELSE" nonsensical response)
EDIT: Also, as others have noted, it's also annoying showing up to the store and of the 5 tables in play, 3 are Marines vs marines, and the other 2 are Marines vs Something Else.
I just wanted to say what a great post this was, and how much I enjoyed reading it.
I have built a few armies over the years including Orks, Squats, Eldar and Genestealer Cult... At the moment I'm working on Blood Angels army, so yeah I guess I am yet another marine player. I think I have good reasons for it though. Blood Angels have always been my favourite Marine Chapter since I was young. Oddly though I never built a BA force... This might sound strange but it was mainly down to the fact that when I collected marines BA didn't have rules out, or any special characters. I ended up buying Ragnar, and later Calgar and painted up all my marines to match them. By the time the first BA Codex came out I had already started to lose interest in GW and wasn't willing to spend any more or time or money on more marines.
Last year I got back into 40k. I had never owned a box of the new plastic marines because I quit before 3rd edition and they were something I really wanted to have a play with. When it came to choosing a colour it was a no brainer for me, especially with the new BAdex having just come out. So my BA army was born, I guess in some ways I'm kind of fulfilling the dream Marine army of my childhood now.
The fly in the ointment however is that so far half the people I've played so far were also playing BA or SW . It might sound hypocritical but even I as marine player get kind of fed up with all the other marine players. I really want to try out my army against Guard or Nids but they just aren't as common. Marines fighting marines just doesn't seem as interesting.
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Post by: mcyeatman
SickSix wrote:purplefood wrote:I would accept 2 books...
They are GWs poster boys however, they could emphasize the other races more IMO but i can understand why they push SM so much.
I totally believe in SM as the posterboys. However, you can still put them on posters and not give them 70% of the developmental resources.
Keep putting them on posters, and making them the video game protagonists, but bring the other races more in line when it comes to the actual game.
+1
No hate of SM, but do bring balance to the game.
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Post by: Orc Town Grot
LoL. I haven't even looked in this forum for 2 years. After getting tired of the low quality of play/ painting/ conversion/ conversation in my local store, I returned to computer gaming, where you can always find a game, and the hygiene is better. The only space marine I'm interested in these days is the one being produced for a soon to be released 'SPACE MARINE" computer game (cheers). For my 40K hit these days, I got Dawn of War 2 Retribution for less than the price of one box of 'marine miniatures'. It also offers a hellof a lot more bang for the buck (X1000). I can get a co-op, campaign or competitive game any time of the day or night, and you don't have to make your own sound effects lol.
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Post by: NamTaey
The fly in the ointment however is that so far half the people I've played so far were also playing BA or SW . It might sound hypocritical but even I as marine player get kind of fed up with all the other marine players. I really want to try out my army against Guard or Nids but they just aren't as common. Marines fighting marines just doesn't seem as interesting.
 +1
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Post by: Frazzled
Shayden wrote:Why? Everywhere I look people are hating on the Space Marines! I understand that they are very popular with newbies, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason. Are they just considered cheap? Is it because of Matt Ward? Help me out here!
Its a carefully hewn nexus between GW and marines players going Spass Marniez HURR! Automatically Appended Next Post: purplefood wrote:Nerivant wrote:I've seen more "why the hate" than "hate" threads this week.
Ironic isn't it?
Can we make a "I hate why hate threads" thread?
Please do.
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Post by: BeefCakeSoup
I don't hate Space Marines, but I do hate how their Dexes are so forgiving compared to even IG. Space Marines can take some brutal losses and still pull a pretty solid win. Other armies can afford one or maybe two turns going south then pretty much accept a downward spiral in a more competitive setting.
As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.
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Post by: mcyeatman
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.
That would be worth it. Plenty of runway for good fluff and adjacent products.
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Post by: SickSix
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.
That is a perfect contrast! The grimy, lower tech, humans versus the clean, sleek, ultra-tech alien race. It is the 'classical' sci-fi match-up! I would be all for that.
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Post by: RxGhost
Orc Town Grot wrote:LoL. I haven't even looked in this forum for 2 years. After getting tired of the low quality of play/ painting/ conversion/ conversation in my local store, I returned to computer gaming, where you can always find a game, and the hygiene is better. The only space marine I'm interested in these days is the one being produced for a soon to be released 'SPACE MARINE" computer game (cheers). For my 40K hit these days, I got Dawn of War 2 Retribution for less than the price of one box of 'marine miniatures'. It also offers a hellof a lot more bang for the buck (X1000). I can get a co-op, campaign or competitive game any time of the day or night, and you don't have to make your own sound effects lol.
And nothing of value was lost.
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Post by: G00fySmiley
Orc Town Grot wrote:LoL. I haven't even looked in this forum for 2 years. After getting tired of the low quality of play/ painting/ conversion/ conversation in my local store, I returned to computer gaming, where you can always find a game, and the hygiene is better. The only space marine I'm interested in these days is the one being produced for a soon to be released 'SPACE MARINE" computer game (cheers). For my 40K hit these days, I got Dawn of War 2 Retribution for less than the price of one box of 'marine miniatures'. It also offers a hellof a lot more bang for the buck (X1000). I can get a co-op, campaign or competitive game any time of the day or night, and you don't have to make your own sound effects lol.
this reminds me of those pweople who get on WoW and pronounce how much better thier lives have been since they quite WoW... that's great for them they probably played it to much and spent to much time on it neglecting other things in thier life, but hobbies can be good. also i would say everybody i play with has good hygene btu i cna imagine in some areas that might not be the case
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Post by: Lobokai
SickSix wrote:BeefCakeSoup wrote:
As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.
That is a perfect contrast! The grimy, lower tech, humans versus the clean, sleek, ultra-tech alien race. It is the 'classical' sci-fi match-up! I would be all for that.
Even as a die-hard UM player, I'd be all for Tanith, Cadia, and the like being the new poster boys (an IG vs DE or CWE would be awesome)
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Post by: Seaward
I'm amused that so many people think Space Marines are popular because GW pushes them in your face.
GW pushes them in your face because Space Marines are popular. You dance with the girl that brung ya. More importantly, you sell to the demand that exists, rather than supplying the demand that doesn't.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Seaward wrote:I'm amused that so many people think Space Marines are popular because GW pushes them in your face.
GW pushes them in your face because Space Marines are popular. You dance with the girl that brung ya. More importantly, you sell to the demand that exists, rather than supplying the demand that doesn't.
And by the same token what's popular is so because it gets pushed and has constant support and is amongst the cheaper armies to build.
It was hard to play Dark Eldar for 5 years when it literally had 0 presence in stores. You didn't see it, you couldn't buy it. You had to get it all online. This was of course 7 years after being introduced and then getting absolutely no support thereafter.
If you don't support other lines, of course they aren't going to be popular or sell.
If you constantly update one product and introduce new things for it, of course it's going to be vastly more popular than products which get almost no marketing or development efforts in comparison.
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Post by: Seaward
Vaktathi wrote:Seaward wrote:I'm amused that so many people think Space Marines are popular because GW pushes them in your face.
GW pushes them in your face because Space Marines are popular. You dance with the girl that brung ya. More importantly, you sell to the demand that exists, rather than supplying the demand that doesn't.
And by the same token what's popular is so because it gets pushed and has constant support and is amongst the cheaper armies to build.
It was hard to play Dark Eldar for 5 years when it literally had 0 presence in stores. You didn't see it, you couldn't buy it. You had to get it all online. This was of course 7 years after being introduced and then getting absolutely no support thereafter.
If you don't support other lines, of course they aren't going to be popular or sell.
If you constantly update one product and introduce new things for it, of course it's going to be vastly more popular than products which get almost no marketing or development efforts in comparison.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
I promise you that GW's motive is to turn the largest profit possible. If they thought they could do that by releasing a codex for every Imperial Guard regiment, every Craftworld, every Hive Fleet, etc., then they would.
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Post by: Serket
And thats the rub, I'm starting Red Scorpions, and yet now sad that I have to look forward to fighting nothing but other space marines D:
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Post by: Vaktathi
Seaward wrote:Vaktathi wrote:Seaward wrote:I'm amused that so many people think Space Marines are popular because GW pushes them in your face.
GW pushes them in your face because Space Marines are popular. You dance with the girl that brung ya. More importantly, you sell to the demand that exists, rather than supplying the demand that doesn't.
And by the same token what's popular is so because it gets pushed and has constant support and is amongst the cheaper armies to build.
It was hard to play Dark Eldar for 5 years when it literally had 0 presence in stores. You didn't see it, you couldn't buy it. You had to get it all online. This was of course 7 years after being introduced and then getting absolutely no support thereafter.
If you don't support other lines, of course they aren't going to be popular or sell.
If you constantly update one product and introduce new things for it, of course it's going to be vastly more popular than products which get almost no marketing or development efforts in comparison.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
I promise you that GW's motive is to turn the largest profit possible. If they thought they could do that by releasing a codex for every Imperial Guard regiment, every Craftworld, every Hive Fleet, etc., then they would.
I'm not denying that SM's won't always be popular, but there is such a thing as oversupport and choking off other lines, and yes, GW as a business can and does make mistakes (like *borrowing* money to pay *dividends*...convienently doubling Mr. Kirby's yearly income).
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Post by: Archonate
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Crippling or destroying two dozen strike cruisers, and cutting off all the guns of a battle barge, in addition to butchering in excess of 750 (500 active on the ground after suffering 50% casualties, less than a halfway point in the battle, and only some percent in excess of 50% of the survivors at the end managed to flee; so out of a thousand Marines, more than 75% were killed, all in the time it took the nearest neighboring noble houses (to differentiate from the ones they landed on top of) to realize something was going on) Marines in the span of a few minutes, is probably the most anyone is allowed to beat up on them. They are "everyone's" favorite little Mary-Sues, after all.
Yeah they beat up on them pretty good for several days, but let's face it... There's no way any marines should have escaped. Not with all their body parts still in their original places anyway. Which reminds me of the bit about the 'Eldar killing' Imperial Guard who disappeared one day. Shortly thereafter a bunch of headless, armless bodies were seen running around, bumbling down the streets of Commorragh... That story would only be made better if they had been SMs, but GW would never allow that.
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Post by: Ascalam
Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?
Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command
Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.
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Post by: King Pariah
And this is why I play Rogue Chaos Malal serving Sons of Malice on the side of my Necrons so I can beat up on any person who thinks Ultrasmurfs are the best.
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Post by: Archonate
Ascalam wrote:Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?
Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command
Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.
I understood that... I just thought it was a sneaky excuse to let them live. I think that under those circumstances, SMs should have failed escape and been quickly dismantled, then utterly violated. The story just made me feel like everywhere I turn, the worst the SMs suffer is a hard fought battle where they lose many brethren, but they always successfully escape.
I think 'The Fall of Damnos' would have been a better book if the Ultramarines' means of escape had been neutralized and they got wiped out with the rest of the planet.
I would probably like SMs if they weren't so ridiculously perfect all the time. It's just such a contrived meme...
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Post by: Coolyo294
Archonate wrote:Ascalam wrote:Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?
Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command
Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.
I understood that... I just thought it was a sneaky excuse to let them live. I think that under those circumstances, SMs should have failed escape and been quickly dismantled, then utterly violated. The story just made me feel like everywhere I turn, the worst the SMs suffer is a hard fought battle where they lose many brethren, but they always successfully escape.
I think 'The Fall of Damnos' would have been a better book if the Ultramarines' means of escape had been neutralized and they got wiped out with the rest of the planet.
I would probably like SMs if they weren't so ridiculously perfect all the time. It's just such a contrived meme...
Fall of Damnos is a terrible book, no matter what you change.
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Post by: Ascalam
I actually rather prefer that Vect used the spacemarines and threw them away when they were of no further use, especially sinc ethey seem to be completely unaware that they were being staged every step of the way, in AND out
It makes the SM look like a bunch of tools
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Ascalam wrote:Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?
Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command
Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.
Right, he let them in, sabotaged the defense effort and used the opportunity to assassinate the leaders of the most prominent noble houses, then freed the captured strike cruiser and had his forces set upon the pursuers so they could escape. It wasn't about preserving the city, though: his goal was the utter humiliation of his political opponents, and had the Space Marines not been allowed to flee, they'd have been eradicated, which would have salvaged some of the noble houses' honor. Automatically Appended Next Post: SickSix wrote:BeefCakeSoup wrote:
As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.
That is a perfect contrast! The grimy, lower tech, humans versus the clean, sleek, ultra-tech alien race. It is the 'classical' sci-fi match-up! I would be all for that.
You mean the elite, ridiculously high-tech humans versus the primitive but straight-forward xenos tech, right? Some Tau tech might be more tactically useful, but it's still comparatively primitive (example: battlesuits versus power armor: battlesuits are the size of a dreadnought, provide protection mildly inferior to basic power armor, require a giant jet engine to move around at any speed, and require the use of an even-more-unstable version of the tech that the Imperium reserves for its titans in order to control; the battlesuit is more technologically primitive, even if fills a more useful role).
Much better to have Guard versus Orks, Nids, or Cultists (which would necessitate bringing back rules for them).
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Post by: Ironsight
Archonate wrote:Ascalam wrote:Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?
Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command
Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.
I understood that... I just thought it was a sneaky excuse to let them live. I think that under those circumstances, SMs should have failed escape and been quickly dismantled, then utterly violated. The story just made me feel like everywhere I turn, the worst the SMs suffer is a hard fought battle where they lose many brethren, but they always successfully escape.
I think 'The Fall of Damnos' would have been a better book if the Ultramarines' means of escape had been neutralized and they got wiped out with the rest of the planet.
I would probably like SMs if they weren't so ridiculously perfect all the time. It's just such a contrived meme...
That's right bro, its not enough that they were mauled and completely used like tools; they need to be cornered and mutilated like the dogs they are for being too good at what they're designed for!
The story was not a "sneaky excuse"; it was written at every angle to give Vect the edge, and to not annoy Salamanders fans by making them look like utter fools. Everyone involved reacted in a way that had neither come off as the less competent, but Vect was three steps ahead of everyone from the beginning.
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Post by: Archonate
Ironsight wrote:The story was not a "sneaky excuse"; it was written at every angle to give Vect the edge, and to not annoy Salamanders fans by making them look like utter fools.
Who gives a flying feth if SMs are made to look like utter fools? Every other race is made a fool of by SMs in one story or another.
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Post by: Melissia
Oh don't worry, GW's writers make Marines look like fools all the time. Just look at the battle for macragge.
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Post by: cyorysh
I just got into the hobby and I chose space marines (crimson fists to be exact). I didn't realize how over-saturated the power armored soldiers were and if I could go back and choose again I would probably pick up Eldar. The main reason I chose space marines was the $$$$$. Other armies are just too expensive to field.
Having read through a few codecies I don't fully understand why there's so many SM codecies. I feel like you can feel the difference between a salamander army and a white scar army and a crimson fist army. Just because they all have the same access to units they can be played in totally different ways.
Once I get a few games under my belt and some cash flow I will probably start an Eldar army. Hopefully not to be brutalized by all the MEQS running around.
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Post by: steeds of war
Most people start as marines such as myself but then move on to other armies. Marines especially in England are big every kid collects them however you can have lot's of different types with different themes and I would prefer it alot more if the Ultramarines went from there current image to the tyranid hunters of the last codex.
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Post by: cyorysh
That would be cool, I want to make my army geared somewhat against orks, but I feel like I have to prepare to fight MEQs more than the vile greenskins.
Didn't an older edition book allow you to pay some points and make your army more skilled against a certain race? That could be cool to have again.
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Post by: Ail-Shan
however you can have lot's of different types with different themes
My main issue is that it's still playing against T4 3+ with AV11. No matter what style of marines you are playing against, one of those two will be there in abundance (if not AV12 walkers, but I've never come across that). It all ends up feeling very similar. Of course, the guard off set this not with their T3 5+, but their AV12 with high firepower. Mainly, I want to play armies that play completely different from marines (would be nice to have some Dark Eldar, demons, orks and Tau in the area, but that's a local environment issue).
The ironic thing is I've always thought marines as equal in number as Eldar (both supposedly being rare) but that's not true. Eldar are (I believe) far more numerous than marines. The number of games against marines just skews perception so horribly though. But based on business there isn't much you can do about it. Marines do sell, and they are pretty cool. I think they just lose a bit of their individuality because they all have the same stat line (not that they shouldn't). While they may play very differently, playing against them feels the same (you deal with T4 3+ the same way really).
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Post by: candy.man
Smacks wrote:The fly in the ointment however is that so far half the people I've played so far were also playing BA or SW . It might sound hypocritical but even I as marine player get kind of fed up with all the other marine players. I really want to try out my army against Guard or Nids but they just aren't as common. Marines fighting marines just doesn't seem as interesting.
+1 to this. GW is to blame for the current loyalist MEQ heavy environment. Too many loyalist MEQ releases and not enough balance amongst all the factions. Players who wish to play a 5th edition codex have currently have a choice between 4 loyalist MEQ factions, IG, Tyranids and DE (in other words, 5 “hero” factions 2 “villain” factions). Choice is pretty much a no brainer in these cases. If you don’t like DE or Tyranids and you wish to play a 5th edition codex, you have to choose a loyalist MEQ faction.
Now if GW was like PP and target multiple factions with an update rather than slowly and individually, we probably wouldn’t be having this thread.
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Post by: Lobokai
candy.man wrote:Smacks wrote:The fly in the ointment however is that so far half the people I've played so far were also playing BA or SW . It might sound hypocritical but even I as marine player get kind of fed up with all the other marine players. I really want to try out my army against Guard or Nids but they just aren't as common. Marines fighting marines just doesn't seem as interesting.
+1 to this. GW is to blame for the current loyalist MEQ heavy environment. Too many loyalist MEQ releases and not enough balance amongst all the factions. Players who wish to play a 5th edition codex have currently have a choice between 4 loyalist MEQ factions, IG, Tyranids and DE (in other words, 5 “hero” factions 2 “villain” factions). Choice is pretty much a no brainer in these cases. If you don’t like DE or Tyranids and you wish to play a 5th edition codex, you have to choose a loyalist MEQ faction.
Now if GW was like PP and target multiple factions with an update rather than slowly and individually, we probably wouldn’t be having this thread.
Agreed... something for everyone at a good pace is better than the current "suspense" (read also: frustration) and feast/famine mode we currently have. And we really don't need as many MEQ codices as other codices. I really think (as I've said before) that two comprehensive marine hard back codices would make more sense than the current madness (though holistically, I really really like 5th edition rules, just not the update process).
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
candy.man wrote:Smacks wrote:The fly in the ointment however is that so far half the people I've played so far were also playing BA or SW . It might sound hypocritical but even I as marine player get kind of fed up with all the other marine players. I really want to try out my army against Guard or Nids but they just aren't as common. Marines fighting marines just doesn't seem as interesting.
+1 to this. GW is to blame for the current loyalist MEQ heavy environment. Too many loyalist MEQ releases and not enough balance amongst all the factions. Players who wish to play a 5th edition codex have currently have a choice between 4 loyalist MEQ factions, IG, Tyranids and DE (in other words, 5 “hero” factions 2 “villain” factions). Choice is pretty much a no brainer in these cases. If you don’t like DE or Tyranids and you wish to play a 5th edition codex, you have to choose a loyalist MEQ faction.
I don't know about you, but last time I looked IG weren't MEQ...
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Post by: Ascalam
Mech yes, to the max...
MEQ no..
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Post by: SickSix
I am considering becoming part of the problem. I am now 0-8 with my Tau and am becoming disheartened. I am really considering shelving my Tau for now and assembling my SM army as it is more forgiving and maybe i'll get a win. Or I am just that bad and won't win either way LOL.
My problem is for me to make a competitive Tau list I would have to buy 6 more broadsides, among other models and its just not worth it. Marines are pretty forgiving.
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Post by: elementbender
Zakiriel wrote:I agree, make it one codex for all Space Marine flavors, including the special FoC as needed.
It's like they have been selling essentially the same book with 2 different pages and changed colors on the pictures for far to long.
I as a blood angels player, think the codexs would be
Space marines
Space marine variations
This would explain how various chapters work differently e.g. Blood Angels can take assault squads as troops choices. Automatically Appended Next Post: Another reason is that the models are too expensive. Automatically Appended Next Post: This is why they are so commen, they don't cost, unlike orks who are a LOT for a big mob.
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Post by: Omegus
I was going to type up all these reasons, but then saw that Vaktathi had already read my mind and done so:
Vaktathi wrote:Several reasons. Few people actually hate Space Marines, but rather the extent of their presence and the attention given to them.
Space Marines are the smallest fighting force in the 40k universe, small enough that 99% of the Imperium's conflicts never see one, and that they are nothing more than a myth to most Imperial citizens. Yet they comprise half the army books. These books often share 80% or more of their units/weapons/wargear and one can easily move between these armies changing a dozen or fewer models, often none. There's a continual pressure to take the smallest diversions in SM armies and use them to make different books, even if they were adequately represented by mere army composition before, or use stuff like simple FoC or weapon swaps. You've got the Chaos Space Marine Legions, huge bands of marines no longer bound by Imperial dictates and probably the most varied group in the 40k universe all sharing one book while tiny Loyalist SM chapters with minor operational differences get their own army books. You have the Imperial Guard, the largest fighting force in the galaxy and another extremely varied fighting force able to produce many competitive and varied builds within one book yet they can't do the same for loyalist SM's. There's an oversaturation of Space Marines and this takes away efforts from other armies.
Each SM book that comes out takes development & marketing time, 4-12 months of release pipeline at least, meaning for each space marine book, you're looking at 10 months or more between non-SM books minimum generally and usually more. There's huge resources devoted to Space Marine marketing and advancement while it is often felt that other forces, that could be made just as popular if given the resources, are ignored. There were 17 Marine Codex books released from when DE got their first book to their update last year. *SEVENTEEN*.
Additionally, Space Marine fluff and background has, in many people's opinions (including my own) has been taking a steady decline in terms of quality for several years. There's a move away from the "cleanse/purge/kill the heretic" type Space Marine, who looks rather techy and brutal, towards more "knights in SPAAACE" spouting off "for the honorable glory of the gloriously glorious honor of glory!" or "wolfmcwolferson with his wolfbrethren riding his wolf while wielding wolfweapons" etc. There's much more of a 'bad internet fanfic' feel to much of the SM fluff of late.
So basically it's a combination of oversaturation, overexposure, decreasing fluff quality and neglect of other armies which further reinforces GW's efforts towards SM armies because the neglected other armies end up not doing well...because they're neglected because too much attention is given to SM's. Or at least that's what is felt.
(in before copy/paste "SPACE MARINES PAY FOR EVERYTHING ELSE" nonsensical response)
EDIT: Also, as others have noted, it's also annoying showing up to the store and of the 5 tables in play, 3 are Marines vs marines, and the other 2 are Marines vs Something Else.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
King Pariah wrote:And this is why I play Rogue Chaos Malal serving Sons of Malice on the side of my Necrons so I can beat up on any person who thinks Ultrasmurfs are the best.
Sons of Malice now worship some nebulous entity called "Malice", or are just plain old renegades. Malal has been lawyered out of 40K.
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Post by: IronChaos
purplefood wrote:Nerivant wrote:I've seen more "why the hate" than "hate" threads this week.
Ironic isn't it?
Can we make a "I hate why hate threads" thread?
Oh noes, no more memes as "How many CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS could a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT transport if CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS could transport CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS?" Joking ^^
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Post by: King Pariah
Omegus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
King Pariah wrote:And this is why I play Rogue Chaos Malal serving Sons of Malice on the side of my Necrons so I can beat up on any person who thinks Ultrasmurfs are the best.
Sons of Malice now worship some nebulous entity called "Malice", or are just plain old renegades. Malal has been lawyered out of 40K.
I know, but Malice and Malal are practically the same entity and I prefer calling him Malal.
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Post by: Cerebrium
Out of interest, what do the space marine haters think of Chaos Space Marines?
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Post by: iproxtaco
SickSix wrote:I am considering becoming part of the problem. I am now 0-8 with my Tau and am becoming disheartened. I am really considering shelving my Tau for now and assembling my SM army as it is more forgiving and maybe i'll get a win. Or I am just that bad and won't win either way LOL.
My problem is for me to make a competitive Tau list I would have to buy 6 more broadsides, among other models and its just not worth it. Marines are pretty forgiving.
So, buy a few more Tau models, or buy an entire new army? That's wonderful reasoning there.
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Post by: G00fySmiley
iproxtaco wrote:SickSix wrote:I am considering becoming part of the problem. I am now 0-8 with my Tau and am becoming disheartened. I am really considering shelving my Tau for now and assembling my SM army as it is more forgiving and maybe i'll get a win. Or I am just that bad and won't win either way LOL.
My problem is for me to make a competitive Tau list I would have to buy 6 more broadsides, among other models and its just not worth it. Marines are pretty forgiving.
So, buy a few more Tau models, or buy an entire new army? That's wonderful reasoning there.
I think the idea is that he can get some models to make them viable now and perhaps have to get somethign different next codex.. and even then how long after the next codex before there will be another tau codex, how many more MEQ codexes will come out between there?
I have a MEQ army to teach peopel to play they are easy and they will always have relevant rules. if you want to be copetetive MEQ are a sure thing, i can see his point he'll never be weak
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Post by: Melissia
Cerebrium wrote:Out of interest, what do the space marine haters think of Chaos Space Marines?
I'm fine with normal Space Marines aside from overexposure, but whinyboy marines have the worst fluff of 40k. Omegus wrote:King Pariah wrote:And this is why I play Rogue Chaos Malal serving Sons of Malice on the side of my Necrons so I can beat up on any person who thinks Ultrasmurfs are the best.
Sons of Malice now worship some nebulous entity called "Malice", or are just plain old renegades. Malal has been lawyered out of 40K.
They're also extremly poorly written, like they took some thing off of a random sixteen year old fanwank off a blog or other.
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Post by: Omegus
You'll get no argument from me there. They are a basically an attempt at an Imperium-independent Chapter that is not Chaos corrupted, not even in the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs peripheral-corruption kind of way. But they still eat people and ritually sacrifice them on altars.
Cerebrium wrote:Out of interest, what do the space marine haters think of Chaos Space Marines?
They've gotten a lot more tame, although that has more to do with Chaos I think than the actual Marines. Chaos used to be a lot more flavorful, the individual powers a lot more sick and twisted, animosity, legion rules, etc. All that was stripped away. Now the only CSM hate you hear is about their boring, bland codex.
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Post by: Shayden
Wow! I didn't expect this thread to get past page one, let alone five! Automatically Appended Next Post: Cerebrium wrote:Out of interest, what do the space marine haters think of Chaos Space Marines?
They're basically the same, but louder. And crazier...
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Post by: Tyranids? Tyranids.
Of the regulars that come to the local games workshop in my area only two are space marine players. I do think however that they get too much attention.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Cerebrium wrote:Out of interest, what do the space marine haters think of Chaos Space Marines?
While not a Space Marine Hater, I also think that Chaos(period: not Chaos Space Marines) need more love.
I.e.--
"Shattered Oaths"--Rules for Red Corsair styled renegade Marines with very little in the way of daemonic weirdness. Generic 'chaos' breed mercs, like the Loxatl and renegade Guardsmen.
"Prayers of the Fallen"--Rules for the Black Legion, Word Bearers, World Eaters Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and their stylized cult armies. Lots of daemonic shenanigans as well.
"Broken Faith"--Rules for Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Raptor Cults, Blood Pact, et al. Fully dedicated to Chaos and the destruction of humanity, but generally in such a way that they're really 'Undivided'.
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Post by: Chagear
While I agree that the SM get too much attention. The amount of codex that they recive is a note not on the "are their too many that are the same" but "why are the releases so few". GW could and SHOULD be able to release more codex with proper play testing and revision. Have 1 to 5 guys write every codex and saying nothing of play testing or market study?.... Just plain lazy(over the course of a year- with all the money they make you must be  me! ). The other armies have so much potential and it is lots in the sea of sloth and apathy on GW's part   and other choice words!
I play a SM army, but that doesn't mean I don't see the point. out of 9 people in my club 5 play SM... though 3 have (or have plans) other armies.
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