I should have known better. I should have expected it. I should have remembered what GW did to my pure World Eaters army in 40K when they destroyed years of background, removed massive amounts of choice and flexibility, and imposed on us the utter rubbish that was the latest version of C:CSM. The defects in that abortion have been discussed exhaustively here and elsewhere and need not be repeated.
It was about at that time that I became interested in WHFB. And of all the armies in WHFB, the one I was interested in most was Tomb Kings. Why? Because of the Egyptian theme. Because I liked chariots. Because of the unique magic system, which was perfectly adapted to the army and made sense. So, I put together my TK army.
Then along came 8th Edition, and I got that bad feeling again. As did many of you, from comments here and elsewhere. Making fear almost completely worthless, which badly affected TK skellies. Excessive randomness, especially in charging. Random magic, which didn’t seem to affect TK as much, because of their unique magic system. Some aspects of 8th Edition seemed to be improvements, but to me it was somewhere between “two steps forward, one step back” and “one step forward, two steps back”.
When the temporary TK revisions came out last year, I could live with them, but kept hoping for some kind of improvement in things like fear, as well as costs for the various units which seemed too high. When the new, and 60% more expensive, hardcover O&G army book came out, I resigned myself to wasting a lot more money on a book that would eventually be obsoleted. And as the time for the new TK army book drew near, I (foolishly!) let myself hope that GW would do right by TK, or at least not trash the entire concept of the army a la C:CSM. Finally, I ordered and obtained my copy.
Can you say “SUCKER”?
As soon as I glanced through the 96 pages I’d just dropped $40.00 for, I got the feeling that I’d just been handed a big crap sandwich. But I wanted to be fair. So, I compared it, rule by rule and unit by unit, with the 7th Edition version. And having finished doing so, my worst fears were not only realized, they were White Dwarfed into invisibility by the awful reality, while the faint hopes that I had held on to, against all experience, were hurled off to infinity like a screaming skull.
In my humble opinion, the new TK army book isn’t just a crap sandwich. It’s a Las Vegas casino buffet of crap. This post will set out the reasons for my opinion.
Now, to all you GW cheerleaders out there whose first smug, self-congratulatory reaction is, “Oh, he’s just afraid of change,” my answer to you is, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m all for “change” that is beneficial to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. I resent and oppose “change” that is detrimental to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. The “change” that the new TK army book represents is, in my view, overwhelmingly the latter rather than the former. If nothing else (and there is a lot else), it seems to be of a piece with the apparent GW strategy of marketing its products to 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and have fathers with too much money. If a rule is too hard for that 9-year-old brat to follow, out with it! If a unit is too complicated for that 9-year-old brat, change it! If a few armies are distinctive and confuse that 9-year-old brat, well, turn ‘em generic and get rid of that distinctiveness!
Since there are some beneficial changes, to be fair, I’ll start with my review of them. It won’t take long. The full horror of this monstrosity will then quickly become apparent.
Note: I will go into some detail on the various TK rules and units, for the benefit of non-TK players. TK players may find some of this discussion elementary, but hopefully also accurate. If I’ve made any factual errors, feel free to correct me.
THE BLESSINGS OF THE ASP GODDESS
Tomb Kings casters now have access to three Lores of magic, with 18 spells and 3 signature spells, as well as Lore attributes. Some of these new spells actually have utility. The spells can be modified to increase their effectiveness, and can be cast with Irresistible Force. Some spells, like Shem’s Burning Gaze, are somewhat better than their 7th Edition analogs.
Tomb Kings Hierophants, and any units they join, now get Regeneration (6+).
A number of TK units have reduced costs and/or improved characteristics. Thus, Skeleton Warriors and Archers have lower cost and better Leadership, and Warriors have standard shields.
Tomb Swarms have lower costs and are no longer 0-1.
The former Skeleton Light Horsemen now correspond most closely to 8th Edition’s Skeleton Horse Archers. Same base cost, same weaponry. The new guys get a somewhat cheaper full command, and also get Scouts. Marginal improvement here.
Skeleton Heavy Horsemen are replaced by Skeleton Horsemen, and have lower cost, cheaper full command, as well as Vanguard.
Chariots, now Skeleton Chariots, are now always core units, you don’t need a Tomb King to lead your army to get them as core. They get extra standard weapons and extra attacks, and full command comes a good deal cheaper. The Chariot Legions rule lets them get rank bonuses with three models per rank, and improves their Impact Hits when they have rank bonuses.
Tomb Guards get a cost reduction and an optional halberd. This is one of the few units with no negative changes. Thanks for at least getting this one right, GW.
Ushabti seem to have drawn a lot of commentary. They’re 23% cheaper in 8th Edition, which is nothing to sneeze at. They also get extra standard weapons, interesting weapon options and access to command. They also get BS2. On the other hand, they lose two points of Strength. They get it back if they use their great weapon, although they also are stuck swinging last. I think overall the new version is an improvement. The debate seems to be whether they are worth taking, even in view of the improvements.
Carrion get increased Strength, an extra attack and War Beast status, all for the same cost as before. Looks like another positive change with no negatives.
Screaming Skull Catapult gets Leadership 5 and crew standard light armor for the same base price, which is good. On the other hand, they pay 10 points more for Skulls of the Foe. Another baffling change. On the whole, though, I guess this is an improved unit.
The 7th Edition Bone Giant re-appears as the 8th Edition Necrolith Colossus. For 50 fewer points, you get improved BS (pardon the expression) and potentially interesting weapons options. But, you also lose one point of Toughness and one wound. You also lose that heavy armor, with its 3+ armor save. This will result in heavier casualties, especially from low-strength units. For example, (Mathhammer alert!) vs. WS3 S3, for every 36 attacks, the 7th Edition Bone Giant lost one wound, while the 8th Edition Necrolith Colossus loses three wounds. OK, that’s still a low casualty rate, but down three wounds and reduced one wound more means after 36 attacks, you’re down to two wounds and looking to die next round. I’ll still call it an overall improvement, but I’m not completely sold.
Various magic items have improved properties. The Blade of Antarhak gives Regeneration if you recover extra wounds. The Golden Death Mask of Kharnut suppresses the enemy general’s Inspiring Presence, also Hold Your Ground, within 6". Cloak of the Dunes inflicts extra hits when overflying enemy units. Enkhil’s Kanopi produces extra power dice for each Remains in Play spell dispelled. The Standard of the Undying Legion’s power level is upped to 5. The Banner of the Hidden Undead’s unit upper limit is upped to 150 pts, and near-by buried (“Entombed”) units can re-roll scatter and artillery dice.
Plenty of new units are provided. Most of them are very expensive and/or are special characters. They may or may not have some value depending on your army. I do like the new Tomb Herald, which looks like the 8th Edition replacement for the 7th Edition Icon Bearer.
OK, so much for positives. Where do we stand? Well, in the same vein as the crap sandwich/buffet metaphor, if you start with a bucket of poop, you can add all the ice cream you want to it and it’ll still be poop. Conversely, if you start with a bucket of ice cream and add even a drop of poop, it’s no longer ice cream.
In my view, the overwhelming majority of what’s new in the TK army book is the poop that GW added to the ice cream. So get out your spoon and prepare to gag.
THE CURSE OF GW
a) Magic
As mentioned above, GW has imposed the generic “Lore” system on TK’s. This is, in my opinion, and I’d be willing to bet many others’ as well, the single most egregious revision in the entire book. This isn’t “change” so much as “expropriation.” You know, like when the government confiscates someone’s property without compensation. The few positive changes conferred on us TK players, mentioned above, are drowned out by the overall revision like the plaintive mewing of a little lost kitty in the midst of a pride of roaring lions.
Let’s start with the spells available in the two systems. In the 7th Edition system, there were only four incantations available, each of which made sense and fit in with the background of the army. Now, as noted, in 8th Edition there are eighteen spells, three signature spells, and Lore attributes available. More is better, right? Not so fast, caster. In 7th Edition, each caster knew all four spells. If you had, say, a Liche High Priest and two Liche Priests, each of them could cast any one of the four incantation as needed. You were guaranteed to have access to the incantations you wanted.
In 8th Edition, in diametric contrast, you can’t count on having any particular spell at hand, other than the signature spell of whatever Lore your casters select. Worse, even if you do get access to the spells you want, only one of your casters will have it (again, except the signature spells). Even worse, since your spell selection is now at the mercy of little plastic cubes, your strongest caster could end up with your weakest spells, and your weakest caster could end up with your strongest spell.
GW shills, please explain to me: Exactly how does this loss of predictability and loss of wider access to incantations benefits my army? How does this make my investment in your gaming system more valuable? How does it make my property better? And don’t bother with some lame-ass excuse like, “Well, it benefits the meta-game,” or, “Well, every other WHFB army has that,” or some BS like that, because as a customer who has made a large expenditure that deserved protection, I don’t care about every other WHFB army, and I don’t care about the meta-game.
In 7th Edition, your casters always cast the selected incantations. You selected it, and it went off, unless dispelled. Now (lucky us!), TK spells–and why bother even calling them “incantations” any more?–may or may not be cast, again depending on the random action of little plastic cubes, but now multiple layers of them (Power Dice, Casting Value, Not Enough Power!, Broken Concentration). GW shills, time for explanation number two.
In 7th Edition, incantations never miscast. This was a significant benefit. Too significant for GW, since now in 8th Edition TK spells are subject to miscast. Isn’t that special? And it gets better: your Hierophant could miscast, and if he’s really lucky he could die, either from Strength 10 hits, or from being sucked into the void (14% chance!). In which case, your whole army starts to disappear! Isn’t that special?! Wait, we’ve just identified a special feature that 8th Edition magic grants to TK players and nobody else: the ability to roll 12 on two dice and blow up their army! Hey GW clones! Betcha you think that’s an improvement too!
Conversely, 7th Edition incantations were never cast with Irresistible Force. OK, sometimes it would have been nice to get a spell to work without worrying about the other guy dispelling it, but I never really longed for that little perk. Now, TK’s can get IF. But, since IF now equals miscast (two different concepts that should never have been conflated, as some have no doubt pointed out previously), it’s a Pyrrhic victory at best and a disaster at worst, as noted above.
In 7th Edition, incantations weren’t modifiable. Again, that’s a perk I was happy to do without. Lucky TK’s, we now get to modify our spells. And with that benefit, we also get even more exposure to miscasts. Hot damn!
With that as the overall magic framework, let’s look at the spells themselves.
The 7th Edition incantation Sekhubi’s Incantation of Vengeance corresponds most closely to the 8th Edition Shem’s Burning Gaze, which isn’t even a Nehekhara spell, but the signature spell from the Lore of Light. (And before we go any further–what in the name of Settra does that Lore have to do with TK’s? A Lore of magic whose attribute is doing extra damage to undead?! *SMH*) The replacement spell has a longer range, sure. But it also only has a 50% chance of casting by your Level 1 Liche Priest on one power die, and any more power dice risks miscast. The enhanced version is even more problematic, even for your Level 4 Liche High Priest.
Horekhah’s Incantation of Righteous Smiting was also one of the incantations available to Tomb Kings and Tomb Princes per “My Will Be Done!”–more on that later. This incantation was incredibly useful in multiple contexts. It gave units immediate extra shooting attacks, outside the normal sequence of events. It allowed Screaming Skull Catapults to get an extra shot, or even to overcome misfires. It gave an immediate extra attack to units in close combat. And it always went off, like other incantations, unless dispelled. Well, the replacement spell in 8th Edition, Ptra’s Incantation of Righteous Smiting (at least they don’t blame Horekhah for it), merely gives a +1 attack to the target unit (and Multiple Shot (2) to bows), in the normal course of play. Nice, but far from equivalent, let alone improved. And no bargain to cast, either, still less in the enhanced version (which is, I’ll admit, worthwhile if it goes off, affecting all units within 24").
Djedra’s Incantation of Summoning recovered wounds in 7th Edition. Any of your undead units within 12" could be targeted, even if they were in combat. Tomb Guards got extra wound recovery, and skeletons were easier to affect. Any Tomb King unit could be healed by this incantation. In 8th Edition there isn’t even an analogous spell available. Rather, you have to rely on an attribute, The Restless Dead. So, if you happen to have an augment spell available, and if it goes off, doesn’t miscast and isn’t dispelled, and if it targets the right type of unit (and that doesn’t include characters–more on that later), then you get to recover some wounds. Yeah, and if I had some ham, I could have a ham and cheese sandwich, if I had some cheese and if I had some bread. Once again, tremendous unreliability and limited utility have been imposed in place of predictability and versatility. GW apologists, start spinning.
Mankara’s Incantation of Urgency was the other 7th Edition incantation also available via “My Will Be Done!” You could target your own nearby undead unit, not in combat, and give it an immediate normal move, which even allowed the unit to charge. GW decided they needed to improve this one, too–if by “improve” you mean make less useful and more unreliable. The 8th Edition analog, Khsar’s Incantation of the Desert Wind, the signature spell of Nehekhara Lore, admittedly affects more than one unit within the same range (or twice that if enhanced). But, as usual, what we get in area we lose in utility, because now the moved units can’t charge. Thanks a pantload, GW.
OK, what about the extra new spells in Nehekhara Lore, and the other Lores? To me, they’re a big fat “meh”. Sure, some are potentially useful. Giving things like Killing Blow or 5+ Ward Saves, doing direct damage in various ways, or making nice little vortices, is all well and good, if you get them, and if you can use them. Oh, and don’t forget Aspect of the Dreadknight, which gives your units–hold on now– fear! Er, wait a minute–they already have fear! (And again–Lore of Light?! And Lore of Death–what do TK’s have to do with direct damage a la Vampires?!). That naked possibility, in my humble view, isn’t anywhere near enough to compensate for the disaster that is the new magic system taken as a whole.
b) Other Rules
The new TK magic rules are bad enough. The revised TK-specific rules are even more annoying. Every single change is less beneficial to TK players than the previous rule, or reduces the player’s choice. Some are positively detrimental. GW: What were you thinking?!
Let’s look at Hierophant selection first. In 7th Edition, the Liche (High) Priest with the highest Leadership is your Hierophant. In 8th Edition, the one with the highest Wizard level has to be the Hierophant. This may be one of the lesser irritants in the new book, but I can see some situations in which you might want a character with higher Leadership but lower Wizard level to be your Hierophant. That’s out the window now.
A far bigger irritant pertains to wound recovery. In 7th Edition, Djedra’s could be used to recover character wounds as well as wounds for other units. I guess that must have been too powerful to be allowed to persist into 8th Edition, because now you can’t heal characters unless specifically stated to the contrary in the spell, magic item, etc. you want to use for healing. Your TK army is now that much more susceptible to blowing up, since now your Hierophant is that much more vulnerable. Even giving Hierophants, and units they’re attacked to, Regeneration (6+), isn’t worth much. A sixteen percent chance to regain one wound doesn’t compare to Djedra’s in any way, shape or form.
If you think un-healable characters are bad, what until you see the 8th Edition version of “My Will Be Done!” In 7th Edition, Tomb Kings were able to use two incantations per turn (Horekhah’s and/or Mankara’s). They could use them on themselves or on units nearby. Tomb Princes could use one per turn, on themselves. They could be used for extra shooting, or extra close combat attacks, or extra moves including charges.
So what do we get in 8th Edition? “My Will Be Done” (at least they had the decency to delete the exclamation mark). Now, instead of getting one or two incantations per turn, useable in a variety of circumstances, one unit that the TK accompanies gets to use the TK’s Weapon Skill.
Big Fat F***ing Deal.
In my humble opinion, this is the second-worst revision in the new book. This is a joke. It is an insult. Instead of being able to shoot, or move, or get an extra round of close combat, at least once per turn, and twice with a Tomb King, i.e., instead of being versatile, we now get an ability that is useful only once, in limited circumstances, and that may not ever be used at all, if your TK isn’t a close combat character.
Again, GW apologists: How does this change improve my army?!
Characters aren’t the only units who get fun new rules. Let’s talk about those things buried under the desert, like Tomb Scorpions. In 7th Edition, “It Came from Below” was an optional deployment rule. It kicked in on turn 2, and by turn 5 you were guaranteed to enter the game. Once you got on the board, you could act normally, even charge. If you emerged under an enemy unit, you automatically engaged in close combat. Of course, you could suffer a mishap, in which case the best outcome would be that your opponent would place your unit on the board instead of you.
But guess what? In 8th Edition, it’s now “Entombed Beneath the Sands,” which I’ll refer to as “EBS” (which should actually read, “Extreme Bulls***”). Again, at least they changed the name, because the new rule is nothing like the previous one. Unlike ICFB, the new rule is not optional. It kicks in on turn 2, but you always have to roll 3+ to enter the game, i.e., you could end up never entering. If you manage to emerge, it’s during Remaining Moves, so you can’t charge. And to complete the trifecta, you can’t emerge under an enemy unit to get the automatic close combat. Admittedly, the new Mishap table is a bit less detrimental. But that’s one drop of ice cream in a bucket of poop.
c) Units
Although it’s a bit more of a mixed bag than the magic system and TK-specific rules, the revisions to TK units, especially the existing units, in my humble opinion are another net loss for the TK player. As mentioned above, costs for some units are reduced (some significantly), some units get improved stats in one way or another, some units get better standard equipment. But overall, especially in conjunction with the disastrous rules revisions discussed above, it’s irritating if not infuriating.
Let’s start with the Tomb King. For the same points cost as in 7th Edition, we now get standard light armor and–gee whiz!–the option of a big new monster to ride on (and shell out big bucks for), the dreaded Khemrian Warsphinx. Nice, eh? Well, we also get: BS3 instead of BS4, a more expensive optional flail, a significantly more expensive optional chariot, and yes, the abortion that is “My Will Be Done.” The Tomb Prince’s new situation is similar.
Tell me again, GW salesmen: How does this benefit my army?
The Liche High Priest in 8th Edition is a lot cheaper, but also significantly less useful in my humble opinion. On the plus side, besides the cost reduction, you get T4 instead of T3, and an option to upgrade to Wizard level 4. On the minus side, you get: Leadership 8 instead of 9–yes, in a game that is replete with opportunities to suffer due to low Leadership, what makes more sense than to cut down the Leadership of your High Priest and likely Hierophant?! That reduction alone virtually negates the point cost reduction. But it gets worse: you also have the disastrous new magical system, with its unreliability and danger. You get a more expensive optional steed (kind of a quibble in view of the other negatives, but I just thought I’d mention it). And you don’t get the option of a Casket of Souls. I refer you GW shills to the preceding question.
Liche Priests follow the same downward spiral: reduced cost negated by reduced Leadership and dangerously unreliable magic.
Turning to core units, in view of the advantages previously discussed, it’s probably an overall improvement. However, there are still plenty of detrimental changes.
The humble but relatively costly Skeleton Warrior of 7th Edition has been split up into 8th Edition’s Skeleton Warriors and Skeleton Archers. As mentioned above, both have been reduced in cost and both have Leadership upped to 5, which should help them survive at least a little longer when (not if) their Hierophant blows himself up or is otherwise eliminated and they start to destabilize. The new Warriors get shields standard. Both new units, however, have more costly full command. Worse, neither new unit can take a magic standard, even if the general of the army is a Tomb King. So I give the new units a solid “meh”. I’m not sure whether overall they’ve improved or not, although the reduced cost and increased Leadership makes for multiple improved units, while loss of the magic standard mostly affects one unit.
The bony ponies have been switched around and renamed. The former Skeleton Light Horsemen are discussed above. The 7th Edition Skeleton Heavy Horsemen are now just Skeleton Horsemen. They’re 25% cheaper, but no longer have standard shields; if you buy them , the cost reduction is now only 2 points instead of 4. They also get a cheaper full command, and the Vanguard rule. But like their foot bone-slogging counterparts, they are now also denied a magic standard. Another “meh” for this unit. And you GW lovers: how is this army improved by depriving Warriors and Horsemen of their magic standards? I can’t wait to hear your answer!
There must have been some confusion that GW thought it needed to clear up, because 7th Edition Chariots are now 8th Edition Skeleton Chariots. OK, what’s in a name, right? As I noted above, this is another improved unit overall. BUT. They are a good deal more expensive now. And, they are no longer light chariots. This is another brilliant re-conception of the TK army by GW. What’s the one change that comes to mind when someone suggests ways to improve the TK list? Right–make TK’s slower and less maneuverable! Between the new and unimproved MWBD, more expensive steeds and chariots, and other revisions mentioned above, GW has succeeded in doing exactly that. You GW minions reading this, I’m waiting for your explanation.
Tomb Swarms used to be Core in 7th Edition but have been banished to Special in 8th Edition. As mentioned, they’re cheaper, no longer 0-1 and have a larger unit size. On the other hand, they are subject to the dreadful EBS rule. In my humble opinion, the unpredictability of EBS negates whatever advantages 8th Edition grants to Tomb Swarms. What good is saving five points if you never get into play?!
Tomb Scorpions are another unit that somehow screamed to GW, “Quick, weaken me!” For the same price, you now get one less wound and that atrocious EBS rule. Let’s hear why this was a good thing, you GW clones.
As for Rare units, there’s the Casket of Souls. On the one hand, the cost is substantially reduced, it’s no longer 0-1, the crew gets standard light armor, you get extra power dice if you have a CS on the table, and it blows up for extra damage if it’s destroyed. On the other hand, it loses two wounds, the guards are weaker and not as tough, the Keeper of the Casket (no longer a Liche (High) Priest) is down to one wound, it no longer causes terror, and it no longer affects all enemy Wizards’ casting. More problematic is the new Light of Death rule. In 7th Edition, all enemy units that can see the Casket drew a LOS to it, then deducted their Leadership from 2D6+2 to determine the number of wounds. Now, you hit one enemy unit (OK, with a 3D6 Leadership test), and maybe get one or more others that happen to be nearby. So, for example (warning: Mathhammer!), assuming four units with LOS, such that each is within the 6" of the next unit, in 7th Edition you would hit all four of them 100% of the time. Alas, no such luck in 8th Edition: you hit all four of them only 30% of the time. Not only that, but in 8th Edition you have to have all potential targets within 6" of the one before them, unlike in 7th Edition where all you needed was LOS to each unit.
*SMH* You know the question, GW: What were you thinking?!
The existing Special Characters, Settra and Khalida, have been analyzed by others at length. I tend to agree with those who say “Meh!” to Settra and “Nerfed!” to Khalida. Especially the latter. Khalida wasn’t just gutted, the canopic jars were thrown down a well.
d) Magic items
This is another area where GW seems to be fixated on force-fitting the game to 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and fathers with too much money. Surely, Nagash must have gotten to the GW team who wrote up this book in order to take his vengeance on Nehekhara.
In 7th Edition, Tomb Kings characters and other designated units had access to all Common magic items in the BRB. They also had thirty-four unique magic items, specifically adapted to and compatible with Tomb Kings armies, including 7 weapons, 4 armors, 5 talismans, 6 enchanted items, 5 arcane items and 7 banners.
GW in its wisdom has seen fit to cut the TK treasury down to eight items: two each of weapons, enchanted items, arcane items and magic standards. Once again: How does this represent an improvement in my army, GW?! And I don't care that you did it to O&G's too. You shouldn't have done it to them either!
That last question was rhetorical, because the answer is obvious: It doesn’t.
But it isn’t just in numbers that TK magic items have been devastated. Of the remaining eight items, each and every one costs more, and almost every one has been weakened in some way. True, most have also been given additional abilities, but many of these are of questionable worth for the extra price.
Of the surviving items, Destroyer of Eternities now costs 10 points more. For that cost increase, your model now inflicts one hit on each enemy in base contact instead of two.
The Spear of Antarhak, now the Blade of Antarhak, costs 15 points more, is no longer a spear, and, instead of regaining 1 wound for the character, his chariot or his unit, only regains that wound for the character.
The Death Mask of Kharnut has been gilded, at an extra cost of 25 points, to become the Golden Death Mask of Kharnut. For that extra cost, you get to suppress the enemy general’s Inspiring Presence and the enemy’s Hold Your Ground within six inches. OK fine. At least it still causes terror. But the price increase is way out of line with the added value, in my humble opinion.
Cloak of the Dunes has more than doubled in cost. For those 30 extra points, you now also get to cause extra hits to enemy units you fly over (Strength 2–I guess you’re spitting down at them). Is this worth the price increase? Not to me it isn’t.
Neferra’s Plaques of Mighty Incantations have been degraded to Scrolls. Appropriate, I suppose, for an item which used to last forever but now is only good for one use. And for a mere 20 points more, instead of being able to re-roll the dice for any incantation you cast, for the entire game, you now get one shot at adding your Wizard level in bonus dice to the power dice you’re using (which don’t count towards power dice, btw). And as an extra bonus, if you roll any double–not just double 6's–you get Irresistible Force + miscast! Thanks another pantload for that, GW. I’ll be sure to give this to my Hierophant.
Enkhil’s Kanopi has gone up by only 5 points. But for that small cost increase, you get a power level reduction from 4 to 3. Also, instead of dispelling all Remains in Play spells on successful activation, you get to roll to see if any of them are dispelled (2+). So (Mathhammer alert!), if three RiP spells are on the table, you go from a 100% chance of dispelling them all to a 58% chance. Yippy-skippy!
The Banner of the Undying Legion must have gotten golden brocade or something, as in 8th Edition it’s now the Standard of the Undying Legion and costs twice as much. And for that 25 extra points, you get a bound spell of power level 5 instead of 3 that, if it goes off, regains D6+2 wounds (average 5.5) rather than D3 (average 2) or D6 (average 3.5) or the higher of 2D6. However, it won’t heal your characters. Good trade? Not in my book. I’d much rather get a wound back for my Tomb King or Hierophant than 3 wounds in skellies. Tell me again, GW cheerleaders, why I can’t regain character wounds in 8th Edition!
Last, and least, there’s the Banner of the Hidden Undead. For 90 total points (an increase of 30 points), you get to bury one unit of up to 150 points, compared to 100 points in 7th Edition. Great, right? No, not great. The previous Banner allowed your unit to be unearthed during the Remaining Moves phase of any TK Movement Phase. The unit could be placed within 18" of the Banner (and more than 1" from an enemy unit), and move normally when it appeared. Now, for your extra 30 points you are subject to EBS. If your unit ever shows up, it is placed within only 12" of the Banner. Oh, and any other units subject to EBS that also attempt to emerge with 12" get to re-roll scatter and artillery dice, but not the roll to actually appear. So, for 90 points, you get to bury 150 points’ worth of TK infantry, cavalry or chariots, and then, if you’re really lucky, watch them stay buried for the whole game.
Say it with me, will you? GW, what were you thinking?!
If TK players find this unsatisfactory, they are stuck with the BRB, with items like, oh, Trickster’s Helm, Scarecrow Banner and the Terrifying Mask of EEE!, that one would naturally expect to find in any tomb in Nehekhara.
NEW UNITS AWAKEN
In my humble opinion, while some of the new units in 8th Edition TK are worthwhile, overall, it’s a case of trying to polish a turd.
The 7th Edition Icon Bearer’s 8th Edition counterpart is the Tomb Herald. I actually like this revision. As compared to the Icon Bearer, the Tomb Herald has a lower base cost, one more attack, standard light armor, and lots of optional weapon upgrades. It’s no longer limited to 0-1. And, it can act as a meat, er, bone shield for your Tomb Kings and Princes. True, it has to pay a lot in order to carry the army’s battle standard, and it suffers from the general increase in cost for chariots and steeds. It’s also now flammable, which is problematic but not devastating. Overall, I see this as an improvement for the TK army. Alas, it’s one of the few.
Necrotects offer Regeneration (6+) to nearby Animated Constructs, and confer Hatred on their units. They can also take 50 points of magic items, which, as is evident from the preceding discussion, doesn’t get you much TK gear anymore. They’re Heroes, and not cheap.
Necropolis Knights cost as much as the 7th Edition Ushabtis. They do have good stats. They may be worth taking as Specials. They’re also very expensive to buy at your FLGS.
Sepulchral Stalkers are another expensive Special. Transmogrifying Gaze sounds like an amusing power if it misfires, which is not unlikely. Unfortunately, it’s also subject to EBS. Meh.
Hierotitans seem like potentially interesting Rares, about the same cost as Necrolith Colossi. Spirit Conduit looks useful for your Liche Priests.
Necrosphinxes and Khemrian Warsphinxes are huge, and hugely expensive (in points and dollars) units that could be useful in some situations and in large enough armies.
Then there’s a plethora of new special characters, including Arkhan the Vampire, er, the Black (what the hell is he doing in the TK army book?!), Grand Hierophant Khatep, the Herald Nekaph, Prince Apophas and Ramhotep the Visionary. They range from expensive to very, very expensive. They all provide different advantages and bonuses to your army. I personally have never been enthused about special characters. In general, I think they’re gimmicks, and I don’t like to rely on gimmicks. Some would disagree.
Regardless of how good any of the foregoing units may be, in my humble opinion they don’t come close to compensating for the destructive and unnecessary changes to the very nature of the Tomb Kings list that appear on every page of the 8th Edition army book.
In summary, GW has taken a distinctive, interesting army, which admittedly needed some upgrading, but which could have been improved starting on the basis of last summer’s revisions, and turned it into another generic WHFB army that, in my view, is worse off overall than before the revision. I am frankly disgusted with GW. I’m also disgusted with myself for letting myself be taken in by another false promise of a revision that actually respects GW’s adult customer base.
Everyone knew they were going to get "normal" magic. I don't think that was remotely a secret. It's hard enough balancing as many armies as they had, but when you have a magic/sorta-magic, how do other abilities and items interract with them? They had to basically FAQ every ability.
And no, TK didn't need "some upgrading," they completely sucked. They were horrid.
That was a lot of bile in your post, which is frankly hard for me to grasp as I think the new book is damn cool, and yes, I had the old one, and yes, I'm more than an "adult customer." To each his own.
I read through your post and I must say from what i have seen of the new TK alot of your argument seems to be complaining for the sake of complaining. Also the common lores in my opinion improved the army.
I'm also not sure what the problem is with having a normal "lore" type setup for Tomb Kings. It streamlines the game a bit... ogres will probably have Gut Magic brought into line with current things (i.e. each wizard won't have loremaster / know all spells).
But yeah, I don't know... I guess you're not happy with the new tomb kings, but I thought they looked pretty well re-done and quite tempting!
Personally I like the new change. The purpose of "normal" lores of magic is to streamline the game and make it less complicated. As a Wood Elf player i am sure they will take away the shadow dances of loec and make dyrads RNF units but it is for the better. So quit your complaining, your army wasnt de-fluffed it was made stronger. The basic premis of TK stayed the same, plus you get some cool new stuff to add to your army.
I did debate taking all of your points one by one, but then I realized I'd rather gouge out my eyes with a teaspoon. I suppose I can somewhat relate to your problems with a few things (particularly the impossibility of bringing back character wounds, which is kind of silly if you're correct).
Overall, though, the TK book represents a continuation of a very positive trend in GW book writing IMO. The Beastmen, OnG, and now TK are good, viable, competitive army lists without being the overpowered cheesefest the Skaven book was. On the point about only 8 very expensive magic items, this has been debated before, and will be again I'm sure, but I understand it; it's to diminish the possibility of obnoxious combos like the unkillable dark elf dreadlord, speculum war altar pope, completely invulnerable to everything high elf archmage, tower of world dragon elves, and so on. In general, I support the theory, particularly given the massive list of items (many of which are very useful) available in the BRB.
Others have suggested it in this thread, but let me come out and say it: I believe the basic problem here isn't GW or their rule writing, but your attitude. You're free to be disappointed, or even to quit the hobby (though that would be a shame), but just because GW's creative philosophy doesn't happen to precisely line up with what you were hoping for in a new TK book doesn't warrant this kind of fury. Your book hasn't been ruined,* it's just been changed. If those changes are uncongenial to you to the point where you want to quit playing, then you should; this is a hobby, and people should cease doing hobbies when they cease to be fun.
Playing the GW hobby means you're subject to their decisions. I doubt there's anybody reading this who has never been frustrated with any of them. However, I'd suggest that the hour or so you spent writing this post could have been spent figuring out how to mitigate these problems and enjoy the game, or figuring out how expensive it will be to buy that Trollbloods army
*Competitively, this is a solid codex. It will win some tournaments sometimes, but not win every tournament all the time like 7th ed Daemons. It requires a thoughtful, tactical player and a lot of careful maneuvering. Also, the models being released are uniformly wonderful as far as most people I've heard from are concerned.
I for one love the fact the the new TK emphasis is on undead constructs and a legion-styled army. My recognition of this emphasis has nothing to do with its competitiveness because that's a ridiculous extrapolation.
These books aren't written in order to make you more successful at tournaments and updates aren't published to benefit your army in any way except in terms of compatibility with the current ruleset and expansion of the miniatures range.
Now, to all you GW cheerleaders out there whose first smug, self-congratulatory reaction is, “Oh, he’s just afraid of change,” my answer to you is, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m all for “change” that is beneficial to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. I resent and oppose “change” that is detrimental to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. The “change” that the new TK army book represents is, in my view, overwhelmingly the latter rather than the former. If nothing else (and there is a lot else), it seems to be of a piece with the apparent GW strategy of marketing its products to 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and have fathers with too much money. If a rule is too hard for that 9-year-old brat to follow, out with it! If a unit is too complicated for that 9-year-old brat, change it! If a few armies are distinctive and confuse that 9-year-old brat, well, turn ‘em generic and get rid of that distinctiveness!
I loved the way the OP infers that he cannot enjoy wargaming unless he wins games. I especially like the way he turned the idiot phrase 'fanboy' into a personal insult towards anyone who disagrees with him. It's all cool though, because he doesn't afraid of anything.
I don't see it as complaining for the sake of complaining...
He has made plenty of good points, and if you actually took the time to read his post, instead of coming in here and trying to flame anyone who expresses their opinions...you might realize that.
TK players have plenty to be pissed about with this new army book. It's not because GW didn't make TK overpowered. That's not why TK players are complaining. It's because TK players waiting so long for a new book, all the while doing their best with the weak 7th army rules they had, constantly getting raped because they were in need of an update more than any other army, and then when that update finally comes out, it actually makes the weakest army in the game EVEN WEAKER.
You can't tell me that you actually think the new TK book is stronger than the last version. Read that one more time before you post. I said STRONGER than last version. TK players weren't looking for a "balanced revision of their current book," because our current book wasn't balanced at all. It needed a huge buff, and when the new TK book was released, all that was in it was nerf, nerf, nerf.
It really is a bit ridiculous. The TK costing the same price as it used to, while MWBD getting nerfed the way it did? Where's the justification in that?
Your telling me MWBD is bad...really? How is having your skeletons, your core tropps for 4pts a pop, hitting things on 3's and things hitting them on 4's a bad thing? And you say that you always got your incantations off, ya thats true. Though in eight edition you a problem.
People can dispell 4 incantations at 2k if they have a decent amount of dispell dice. So you get one incantation off, maybe two depending on your opponents rolls.
Also, giving GG WS6 is horrible in every respect of the word, they slaughter anything they run up against. Even setting a prince in a skeleton unit drastically upps their chance of survival. THey are your anvil and making things hit them on 4's is way better than 3's.
Also, the bound spells were cool i cant say anything else, but it doesn't scale well at all. Try playing 3k TK (the old book) with 8'th edition magic. It's not balanced if you roll five dispell dice for your opponent when you yourself have 10 incantations to cast. All which go off.
There is indeed a lot you complain about which i think is just you not liking the book. It wasn't nerfed at all, they got a huge boost! You can acually play TK now instead of having them stand on your shelf collecting dust.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:I for one love the fact the the new TK emphasis is on undead constructs and a legion-styled army. My recognition of this emphasis has nothing to do with its competitiveness because that's a ridiculous extrapolation.
These books aren't written in order to make you more successful at tournaments and updates aren't published to benefit your army in any way except in terms of compatibility with the current ruleset and expansion of the miniatures range.
Well, that's an honest answer at least. The primary purpose of transforming the list had little to do with improved play and much to do with sales.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:
Now, to all you GW cheerleaders out there whose first smug, self-congratulatory reaction is, “Oh, he’s just afraid of change,” my answer to you is, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m all for “change” that is beneficial to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. I resent and oppose “change” that is detrimental to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. The “change” that the new TK army book represents is, in my view, overwhelmingly the latter rather than the former. If nothing else (and there is a lot else), it seems to be of a piece with the apparent GW strategy of marketing its products to 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and have fathers with too much money. If a rule is too hard for that 9-year-old brat to follow, out with it! If a unit is too complicated for that 9-year-old brat, change it! If a few armies are distinctive and confuse that 9-year-old brat, well, turn ‘em generic and get rid of that distinctiveness!
I loved the way the OP infers that he cannot enjoy wargaming unless he wins games. I especially like the way he turned the idiot phrase 'fanboy' into a personal insult towards anyone who disagrees with him. It's all cool though, because he doesn't afraid of anything.
There is not the slightest suggestion in my post that I "cannot enjoy wargaming unless I win games." I'm sure the new list will manage to win games here and there. It could just as easily have done so while retaining the distinctive features of the army that drew me and others to it in the first place. Change merely for the sake of change is pointless.
BTW: if you're not a GW cheerleader, the comment wasn't meant for you. If you have a non-cheerleader response, let's see it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Malleus wrote:I did debate taking all of your points one by one, but then I realized I'd rather gouge out my eyes with a teaspoon. I suppose I can somewhat relate to your problems with a few things (particularly the impossibility of bringing back character wounds, which is kind of silly if you're correct).
Overall, though, the TK book represents a continuation of a very positive trend in GW book writing IMO. The Beastmen, OnG, and now TK are good, viable, competitive army lists without being the overpowered cheesefest the Skaven book was. On the point about only 8 very expensive magic items, this has been debated before, and will be again I'm sure, but I understand it; it's to diminish the possibility of obnoxious combos like the unkillable dark elf dreadlord, speculum war altar pope, completely invulnerable to everything high elf archmage, tower of world dragon elves, and so on. In general, I support the theory, particularly given the massive list of items (many of which are very useful) available in the BRB.
I'd read some of your posts on this subject before starting this thread. I knew you were generally in favor of the new book.
You and I clearly differ on cutting down on player options and army distinctiveness. I'm against it, you seem not to have a big problem with it. That was what happened in 40K with C:CSM, and it's why I quit playing CSM. In this context, IMO the pendulum has swung way too far in the direction of dumbing-down and genericizing army lists in general, and TK's specifically.
Malleus wrote:
Others have suggested it in this thread, but let me come out and say it: I believe the basic problem here isn't GW or their rule writing, but your attitude. You're free to be disappointed, or even to quit the hobby (though that would be a shame), but just because GW's creative philosophy doesn't happen to precisely line up with what you were hoping for in a new TK book doesn't warrant this kind of fury. Your book hasn't been ruined,* it's just been changed. If those changes are uncongenial to you to the point where you want to quit playing, then you should; this is a hobby, and people should cease doing hobbies when they cease to be fun.
Playing the GW hobby means you're subject to their decisions. I doubt there's anybody reading this who has never been frustrated with any of them. However, I'd suggest that the hour or so you spent writing this post could have been spent figuring out how to mitigate these problems and enjoy the game, or figuring out how expensive it will be to buy that Trollbloods army
I think you've hit on something profound there, that I hadn't fully articulated. Why should I, or any player, having spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars (some of us at least), be put in the position where we have to "mitigate problems" that GW creates?! This is a systemic problem with GW. I suppose one could be grateful that TKs didn't go the way of Squats, but that's pretty weak beer.
Malleus wrote:
*Competitively, this is a solid codex. It will win some tournaments sometimes, but not win every tournament all the time like 7th ed Daemons. It requires a thoughtful, tactical player and a lot of careful maneuvering. Also, the models being released are uniformly wonderful as far as most people I've heard from are concerned.
I may have missed it, but I don't recall ever seeing TK's accused of winning every tournament all the time. If anything, I recall criticism to the contrary. And they do require careful maneuvering, which is now harder, more expensive and less reliable. That was part of my point.
As for the new models, yes, they are fine products. I may even have considered buying one or two.
@Lordofthesloths: Hate to tell you, but the new TK book is amazing. Your SC who grants hatred/frenzy is awesome and <redacted --Janthkin>CHEAP, Necro Knights are worth their weight in gold, Stalkers <redacted; try "destroy" --Janthkin> Hellcannons with ease (while most things will die before they get to them), skellies are dirt cheap, you have Heavy Cavalry with VANGUARD, chariots that are ridiculous, Kings and Princes raising the WS of any unit they join, and you're complaining? This complaint is really a joke. Read the book again and try it. My friend went to a tournament with a list he and I built together that had a little of everything except scorpions, bone giants and sphinxes. He obliterated the first two opponents and lost to the tournament winner (at 'Ard Boyz) when he only had 3 days to prep with the army at all. Worthless book? I think not.
timetowaste85 wrote:@Lordofthesloths: Hate to tell you, but the new TK book is amazing. Your SC who grants hatred/frenzy is awesome and <redacted --Janthkin>CHEAP, Necro Knights are worth their weight in gold, Stalkers <redacted --Janthkin> Hellcannons with ease (while most things will die before they get to them), skellies are dirt cheap, you have Heavy Cavalry with VANGUARD, chariots that are ridiculous, Kings and Princes raising the WS of any unit they join, and you're complaining? This complaint is really a joke. Read the book again and try it. My friend went to a tournament with a list he and I built together that had a little of everything except scorpions, bone giants and sphinxes. He obliterated the first two opponents and lost to the tournament winner (at 'Ard Boyz) when he only had 3 days to prep with the army at all. Worthless book? I think not.
He, like many in my area frown on the use of special characters. Teclis especially has soured our views of them, and they are seen as gimmicks and crutches. The "Heavy Cav" that TK has is slightly less survivable than, say, Wild Riders. Which is to say not at all. They hit like Empire State Troops. Goblin Wolf Chariots are cheaper and hit harder, so I can understand ones reticence to appreciate their "buffs."
To the original poster, I do have to disagree with you on a few points.
First, you complained on one or two occasions that the powerlevels of certain bound items had been decreased (in terms of going from a 4 to a 3, for instance.) I am curious, do you know how bound items cast now? Decreasing the power level is actually better, as you need to hit a smaller number and actually need to use your magic dice to cast them.
Second, though there is a loss to the MWBD, I do LIKE the new ability. A poor replacement for your free spells, perhaps, but increasing a unit's WS, in essence getting the Helm of Command on any unit that a Prince or King joins. You questioned about "What if your king isn't tooled for combat?" My answer is that such a question is like asking "What if my bright wizard isn't geared to cast spells?" Is that not the (sole) function of a tomb king?
The magic system needed a little help. With how 8th ed was redone, the TK system was INCREDIBLY overpowered (read: Teclis level.) Perhaps you didn't run a LHP and 2-3 LP, but my regular opponants did. And they got spells off. Regularly. Even if I really tooled for anti magic, they could get off what they wanted, and that is friggin rough given what those spells did (ESPECIALLY the buff to the SSC. I mean, who wants that many hyper accurate templates dropped in their face every turn? Not me, sir. Not me.). Now, simply making TK magic a lore and NOT CHANGING what those spells did would have been enough, IMO. Strong, dangerous, scary, but manageable if you tool for it. And, IMO, it makes it the equal of other lores. No charging on that move spell? I mean really? Holy crap...
Lore of Light I believe lets them fight their long standing fluff Nemeses, the Vampire Counts. This also does very nice things for the army, buff wise, and is a solid Lore.
As far as the scorpions are concerned, they were a might too strong for their cost before. I think lowering them by A wound was sufficient, but I haven't seen the new deployment rule. I do agree that nerfing the deployment rule AND forcing the unit to be deployed in that was was over kill. Leaving you with the option to deploy as normal would have been preferred.
In the end, GW has the EXCESSIVELY annoying tendency to add three fixes to any one problem when any one fix would do. (Strength of Scorpions and magic, is what I'm referring to here.) Most of your problems are understandable and I agree with you. My VC now sit on a shelf collecting dust. Sigh.
timetowaste85 wrote:@Lordofthesloths: Hate to tell you, but the new TK book is amazing. Your SC who grants hatred/frenzy is awesome and <redacted --Janthkin>CHEAP,
Sure, hatred/frenzy is useful, for one unit. Ramhotep is interesting, as a gimmick. He's also not that cheap, and he takes up Hero space that displaces the extra Liche Priest you will need to compensate for the loss of incantations. And since he randomly gives Master Artisan to one Animated Construct unit, he could very well give it to your Tomb Scorpion that never deploys thanks to EBS.
timetowaste85 wrote: Necro Knights are worth their weight in gold,
I noted that Necropolis Knights might be worth taking. They also just about cost their weight in gold.
timetowaste85 wrote: Stalkers <redacted --Janthkin> Hellcannons with ease (while most things will die before they get to them),
Maybe, if they ever show up. EBS makes them unreliable.
timetowaste85 wrote:skellies are dirt cheap,
Yes, they are cheap. I admitted they have gotten some improvements, maybe even net improvements overall.
timewaster85 wrote:you have Heavy Cavalry with VANGUARD,
Again, noted.
timewaster85 wrote: chariots that are ridiculous,
Chariots that are a lot more expensive. And I like chariots. And I noted that they are probably improved overall.
timetowaste85 wrote: Kings and Princes raising the WS of any unit they join,
One unit, one time per turn, in one particular set of circumstances. As opposed to the previous version that was useful in multiple circumstances with multiple units. I don't find this in any way an even trade, let alone an upgrade.
timetowaste85 wrote: and you're complaining? This complaint is really a joke.
No, it's a statement concerning the relative values of what was added and what was removed. In my view, what TK's were deprived of far outweighs what they were given. Your view seems to be to the contrary. I am not convinced by your examples. I don't think the loss of incantations, MWBD! (as opposed to MWBD), ICFB and the previous magic treasury, among other things, come close to being compensated for by the new rules that have been imposed.
timetowaste85 wrote: Read the book again and try it. My friend went to a tournament with a list he and I built together that had a little of everything except scorpions, bone giants and sphinxes. He obliterated the first two opponents and lost to the tournament winner (at 'Ard Boyz) when he only had 3 days to prep with the army at all.
That's a mighty low statistical sample. And again, you seem to be OK with giving up the distinctive features of 7th Edition TK (including the temporary patch from last year). I'm not, and I have yet to be convinced that 8th Edition is preferable.
Um, the Princes and Kings CONFER their WS to their squad-not just once, but all the time (and WS6 Tomb Guard is nothing to scoff at). And chariot units HAD to go up in price for what they do: they went from D3 to D6, and got stronger as you added ranks. They're well deserving of their increased cost. And you're right, it is unfair of me to base their ability off of one friend playing them. But since he's been playing the new book and only lost that one 'Ard Boyz match and won every other game by a landslide...I'd say he's on to something.
I will grant that the decrease in the Magic Treasury of the 8th edition books is a bit of a bummer, but what GW is trying to do is have everyone use the same general list of items (from the rulebook) while giving each army an opportunity to have a bit of personal flavor-just at an increased cost. And yes, I understand Rhamotep (had forgotten his name before) only affects his unit-but this is a common trait of MOST 8th ed characters now. 110pts (I believe, no book in front of me) is a VERY low cost for the bonuses he gives.
I understand it's a bummer for the change to incantations, but because GW changed how bound spells worked, if they kept the same the Tomb Kings would be hurting. I never read the FAQ either: I don't play Tomb Kings and my friend shelved them until the new book came out, so I had no reason to look at it. Plus I was going through a hiatus from fantasy for a while and switched to 40K. I've seen the magic stuff though, and you still get raisings, based on any successful Nehekharan spells-just work a bit differently.
I know I came off kind of angry-sounding before, but really, I do think they deserve another chance. I'm just disappointed at hearing how "underpowered" or "bad" the 8th edition army books are (Imagine how pissed I get when people bash the new O&G book, which I started playing-when I do believe it's perfect), when they are balancing out well and are a lot more fun to play than 7th ed books and I think. My friend and I went over the book with a fine tooth comb and LOVED the changes that were made. Sure, some costs went up, some things changed, magic items went down. But for every negative change there were 2 positives. There is more stuff, and a lot of things seem to be a vast improvement. Last point, I agree you said the Necro Knights might be worth it-I'll give you the heads up that they are: 5 attacks total per model, 3 with poison, 2 with killing blow, plus stomp, generally equals high damage output-they're just flanking units, not straight up fighters. They also have a great armor save. Give them a go, first chance you get and use them in the flank. I promise you won't be disappointed. My friend refuses to play a game without them.
Lord: You're like a politician, so much talking, so little actual content.
When the Tomb-Kings originally came out, 10 years ago. I was there for that, I saw people whine and moan about the book.
"...Heavy cavalry? May as well call it medium-terrible cavalry"
"Cloak of dunes lets you fly, but not charge? No-one will ever take that."
"Overall it's a weak army, that really has no fighting power, and is a hobby-ists army."
Yeah, well 3 years later, everyone knew one guy that played Tomb Kings in their club, and was pissed because that Tomb Kings player consistently, and constantly won.
The vitiriol in your post, simply seems like you're pissing and moaning because you drank too much vinegar this morning.
I think certain aspects of the army need to be re-strategized, to take advantage of strengths, and shore up new weaknesses found in the army. Khemri has never been an army that could be played traditionally.
So our Heirophant can't cast spells without killing himself? Stop casting spells with him then. Except for that one phase where you NEED him to cast, you know the one, right before you're going to be getting into combat...
EBS will put your unit on the board right around 95% of the time before the game is over. Hopefully it's not a complete waste and they don't come on, on turn 6, but it is what it is. You either have to bring lots of redundant EBS to take advantage of the rule, or not depend on what they do. Either is acceptable. Holy Feth! An army that depends on lots of EBS? Wow.. what a concept!
The book is fine
Sell your stuff.
We don't want you anyway.
Go play Daemons, just don't come back whining to us, because someone sat down with HIS book, looked at it and thought of the evil, nasty things he COULD do with his book, instead of whining about the things he can't do with it.
Live gave you lemons dude.. Trouble is, life isn't taking them back. Make lemonade, or quit whining, because i've got my own lemons to deal with, and honestly don't care about yours.
timetowaste85 wrote:Um, the Princes and Kings CONFER their WS to their squad-not just once, but all the time (and WS6 Tomb Guard is nothing to scoff at).
What I meant was, it comes into effect once per round, not once total. And still, it's only useful in one situation, namely close combat. Versatility has gone way down.
timetowaste85 wrote: And chariot units HAD to go up in price for what they do: they went from D3 to D6, and got stronger as you added ranks. They're well deserving of their increased cost.
Again, I agree that chariots do more. But to me, it's like saying a $500,000 Rolls Royce is worth the money for what you get, when I don't have that half mill lying around. Why not have light and heavy chariots? They're basically the same model.
timetowaste85 wrote:
And you're right, it is unfair of me to base their ability off of one friend playing them. But since he's been playing the new book and only lost that one 'Ard Boyz match and won every other game by a landslide...I'd say he's on to something.
He could be, at that. But, it could also be unfamiliarity with the new TK army on the part of his opponents. More data will be needed.
timetowaste85 wrote:
I will grant that the decrease in the Magic Treasury of the 8th edition books is a bit of a bummer, but what GW is trying to do is have everyone use the same general list of items (from the rulebook) while giving each army an opportunity to have a bit of personal flavor-just at an increased cost.
That's what I object to: making every army have to use the same items, with only minor and rare variations. Choice is good. Denial of choice, not so much.
timetowaste85 wrote: And yes, I understand Rhamotep (had forgotten his name before) only affects his unit-but this is a common trait of MOST 8th ed characters now. 110pts (I believe, no book in front of me) is a VERY low cost for the bonuses he gives.
Again, it's not that he isn't useful, it's that you have to use up Hero points and thus have fewer points left for casters.
timetowaste85 wrote:
I understand it's a bummer for the change to incantations, but because GW changed how bound spells worked, if they kept the same the Tomb Kings would be hurting.
TK's had bound spell items after 8th Edition came out, with last year's FAQ/revision, and they worked just fine.
timetowaste85 wrote:
I never read the FAQ either: I don't play Tomb Kings and my friend shelved them until the new book came out, so I had no reason to look at it. Plus I was going through a hiatus from fantasy for a while and switched to 40K. I've seen the magic stuff though, and you still get raisings, based on any successful Nehekharan spells-just work a bit differently.
Again, you can't rely on getting any raisings. You have to get at least one augment spell, then cast it without any of the bad things that I mentioned happening. For all you know, your Liche Priests may not roll any augment spells, in which case the best you can do is to swap out for the signature spell to get one. Versatility is lost again. That's a running theme with this revision.
timetowaste85 wrote:
I know I came off kind of angry-sounding before, but really, I do think they deserve another chance.
I'm sure I did in the OP. The magnitude of my objection is proportional to the extent to which I was actually looking forward to the new book, the length of time I've been waiting, and the time and money I've put into this army in the meantime.
timetowaste85 wrote:
I'm just disappointed at hearing how "underpowered" or "bad" the 8th edition army books are (Imagine how pissed I get when people bash the new O&G book, which I started playing-when I do believe it's perfect), when they are balancing out well and are a lot more fun to play than 7th ed books and I think. My friend and I went over the book with a fine tooth comb and LOVED the changes that were made. Sure, some costs went up, some things changed, magic items went down. But for every negative change there were 2 positives.
That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening.
timetowaste85 wrote: There is more stuff, and a lot of things seem to be a vast improvement. Last point, I agree you said the Necro Knights might be worth it-I'll give you the heads up that they are: 5 attacks total per model, 3 with poison, 2 with killing blow, plus stomp, generally equals high damage output-they're just flanking units, not straight up fighters. They also have a great armor save. Give them a go, first chance you get and use them in the flank. I promise you won't be disappointed. My friend refuses to play a game without them.
I must agree with the OP on many points. 7th ed. TK were not an easy army to win with, but used properly with a bit of luck they could rule. I tabled a demon army with them once, so I know.
Their magic system was elegant and unique to the army, and will be missed most of all. I don't buy into all this streamlining crap.
On the other hand, Settra is much more useable than before.
The new book was due but I can see why long time TK players are not happy with it.
LordOfTheSloths wrote:...That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening...
And thats why it will be a hard sell for you. For others the negatives do not outweigh the positives. The one thing I found ironic is that many of the "negatives" you stated I consider positives. I for one think the new MWBD is perhaps the best rule in the new book. My biggest complaint about it is that Khalida did not get it. I love the new magic, and the elegance of how it heals my units. Princes and Kings have an extra wound.
I understand that you may not like the new book, but dont think that all of the "adult customer base" agree with you. I suggest you look around and see if another army has a playstyle more suited to your wants.
LordOfTheSloths wrote:...That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening...
And thats why it will be a hard sell for you. For others the negatives do not outweigh the positives. The one thing I found ironic is that many of the "negatives" you stated I consider positives. I for one think the new MWBD is perhaps the best rule in the new book. My biggest complaint about it is that Khalida did not get it. I love the new magic, and the elegance of how it heals my units. Princes and Kings have an extra wound.
I understand that you may not like the new book, but dont think that all of the "adult customer base" agree with you. I suggest you look around and see if another army has a playstyle more suited to your wants.
Probably the biggest reason I picked TK's to play is because of their play style and their distinctive magic system. If I'd wanted to play generic lores, I would have gone Empire or some Elves or other.
Since you prefer the new magic system, please explain why an unpredictable, unreliable system that exposes your casters to instant death and your entire army to disintegration, is superior to the previous system. As for healing, please explain how the new system works better than the previous system, especially since you can't rely on random generation of even one augment. Also, as I read the stat lines, I must be missing those extra Tomb King and Prince wounds.
And I'm quite sure that a good percentage of the adult customer base doesn't agree with me. That's as may be. I think that quite a few agree with me, though.
LordOfTheSloths wrote:...That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening...
And thats why it will be a hard sell for you. For others the negatives do not outweigh the positives. The one thing I found ironic is that many of the "negatives" you stated I consider positives. I for one think the new MWBD is perhaps the best rule in the new book. My biggest complaint about it is that Khalida did not get it. I love the new magic, and the elegance of how it heals my units. Princes and Kings have an extra wound.
I understand that you may not like the new book, but dont think that all of the "adult customer base" agree with you. I suggest you look around and see if another army has a playstyle more suited to your wants.
I think here is a question someone should have asked way earlier.
I read through the wall of text and something stuck, have you read the Time of legends books? the ones about nagash? the ones where the Tomb Kings use the Lore of LIGHT to fight Nagash?
"Generic" lores i isn't really what the Lore of Nehekhara is though. Its extremly unic and designed for TK specifically. It has a lot of buff spells and augments which are meant to boost your troops so they become better at what they do.
And yes magic is unreliable, thats just how the cookie crumbles atm. But saying "that exposes your casters to instant death and your entire army to disintegration" is laughable. Yes you have a chance to kill your heirophant...if you roll double sixes....2-4 on misscast result and then you need to roll 3 or less to kill him outright. Otherwise he looses a wound. Ya its a real killer. If your worried about misscast do what you always did with a heirophant, plunk him with an archers unit in the backfield to avoid killing your other troops.
So nobody is bothered by the fact that TK are the slowest army in the game now? Like that makes sense? We're supposed to have the option of having a "fast moving chariot army", but we can't even march. What a sick joke, huh?
LordOfTheSloths wrote:...That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening...
And thats why it will be a hard sell for you. For others the negatives do not outweigh the positives. The one thing I found ironic is that many of the "negatives" you stated I consider positives. I for one think the new MWBD is perhaps the best rule in the new book. My biggest complaint about it is that Khalida did not get it. I love the new magic, and the elegance of how it heals my units. Princes and Kings have an extra wound.
I understand that you may not like the new book, but dont think that all of the "adult customer base" agree with you. I suggest you look around and see if another army has a playstyle more suited to your wants.
Probably the biggest reason I picked TK's to play is because of their play style and their distinctive magic system. If I'd wanted to play generic lores, I would have gone Empire or some Elves or other.
Since you prefer the new magic system, please explain why an unpredictable, unreliable system that exposes your casters to instant death and your entire army to disintegration, is superior to the previous system. As for healing, please explain how the new system works better than the previous system, especially since you can't rely on random generation of even one augment. Also, as I read the stat lines, I must be missing those extra Tomb King and Prince wounds.
And I'm quite sure that a good percentage of the adult customer base doesn't agree with me. That's as may be. I think that quite a few agree with me, though.
the previous tk book only worked in 8th by overloading your opponent with incantations and then using spell dice on bound items. it was BROKEN my normal army threw 19+ dice at my opponent (average roll of 7 magic dice) even then this is how it would play...
hmm. spam summoning spell with maybe an urgency here and there. hurray for boredom
new magic goes cast desert winds to move up table. oh neat I healed some of your shooting damage. smiting to get extra shots.. nifty healed more damage. Dessication, this spell is made of win, oh look all my attacks wound you on 3+ (assuming t3). Killing blow is awesome because heavy armor was a weakness of the old book. Plus lore of light has great buffs as well.
I usually take a lvl4 and lvl 2 in my magic heavy armies so getting the spells I want is not an issue. Their magic is still distinctive just the mechanic is the same as all the others. Plus the old sytem was very open to abuse, and by using a universal mechanic it closes that opening.
The writing was on the Wall. There was no way that Tk magic was going to remain as it was in the 8th style magic phase. Well not and be remotely balanced. So I have to ask do you like 8th ed more than 7th?
(sorry I was not clear on character wounds. I was not saying that they had changed only that I love how our combat characters have more wounds than equivalent characters in other armies).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
UberhAxTHC wrote:So nobody is bothered by the fact that TK are the slowest army in the game now? Like that makes sense? We're supposed to have the option of having a "fast moving chariot army", but we can't even march. What a sick joke, huh?
<redacted; let's leave the personal attacks out, shall we? --Janthkin> The new book is great, just what the TK needed. The old magic system was weak and tedious and basically consisted of casting the same spells in the same order all game every game. For an army that relies on magic, our magic phase was second-most boring, being beaten out only by a no-anvil dwarf list. None of our units were lost, all of them were buffed, and we got lots of cool new stuff. This book is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the crappy chaos codex, which I am familiar with as a Word Bearers fan: rather than almost no options, most of which are weak, and no way to play to a theme while still having a competitive list, this book gives me loads of options, and plenty of themes to choose from while still keeping a fairly strong list. This book is great, just like the OnG book, and I hope all the other 8th ed books live up to it. <redacted --Janthkin>
the previous tk book only worked in 8th by overloading your opponent with incantations and then using spell dice on bound items. it was BROKEN my normal army threw 19+ dice at my opponent (average roll of 7 magic dice) even then this is how it would play...
hmm. spam summoning spell with maybe an urgency here and there. hurray for boredom
I didn't find it boring. I found it in character with the ancient and relentless nature of the army. Again, I liked that aspect of the army.
neiltj1 wrote:
new magic goes cast desert winds to move up table. oh neat I healed some of your shooting damage. smiting to get extra shots.. nifty healed more damage. Dessication, this spell is made of win, oh look all my attacks wound you on 3+ (assuming t3).
Miscast. Not Enough Power. Broken Concentration. And even if they manage to go off, only one shot from one caster. Again, how is unreliability better than reliability?
neiltj1 wrote: Killing blow is awesome because heavy armor was a weakness of the old book.
You're right.
neiltj1 wrote: Plus lore of light has great buffs as well.
Again, if you're lucky enough to roll them.
neiltj1 wrote: I usually take a lvl4 and lvl 2 in my magic heavy armies so getting the spells I want is not an issue.
If you want to be sure of getting Lore of Light spells and also Nehekhara Lore spells, now you need four casters just to ensure getting one copy of each.
neiltj1 wrote: Their magic is still distinctive just the mechanic is the same as all the others. Plus the old sytem was very open to abuse, and by using a universal mechanic it closes that opening.
It's distinctive only to the extent that the specific spell language and effects are distinctive. As for the old system being very open to abuse, if that were so, why weren't more players running TK to take advantage of that possibility? IMO there may have been some things that could be abused, but there must have been a way to deal with them other than deleting the entire system.
neitltj1 wrote:The writing was on the Wall. There was no way that Tk magic was going to remain as it was in the 8th style magic phase. Well not and be remotely balanced. So I have to ask do you like 8th ed more than 7th?
No doubt, the writing was on the wall. GW had made up its mind to rewrite the system regardless of what its player base thought about it, like they do with every other army in both systems (such as my 40K World Eaters). I don't see the FAQ/revision from last year as being that problematic, and that could have been the baseline from wich to further improve the old system.
I'm not sure about 8th vs 7th. I like a lot of 8th. What I don't like is removing distinctiveness and player options.
Automatically Appended Next Post: <redacted; two wrongs do not make a right --Janthkin>
the color purple wrote: The new book is great, just what the TK needed. The old magic system was weak and tedious and basically consisted of casting the same spells in the same order all game every game. For an army that relies on magic, our magic phase was second-most boring, being beaten out only by a no-anvil dwarf list.
You found it "boring," I didn't. We differ.
the color purple wrote:None of our units were lost, all of them were buffed, and we got lots of cool new stuff.
Some of them were buffed. We got some new units. We lost most magic items. And almost every advantage came at high cost. As I discussed in considerable detail, and as you don't seem to have a response to other than "Nah-AHH!"
the color purple wrote: This book is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the crappy chaos codex, which I am familiar with as a Word Bearers fan: rather than almost no options, most of which are weak, and no way to play to a theme while still having a competitive list, this book gives me loads of options, and plenty of themes to choose from while still keeping a fairly strong list. This book is great, just like the OnG book, and I hope all the other 8th ed books live up to it.
Of course there are new options and themes. You think the pros outweigh the cons. I don't. And my C:CSM analogy remains valid. Both revisions removed the possibility to play armies I had spent massive time and money on, for one reason or another, without providing satisfactory (to me) replacements.
the color purple wrote:I'm... a fanboy? LordOfTheSloths, let's quit the personal attacks here.
Is that unintentional irony, or do accusations of stupidity constitute something other than personal attacks?
the color purple wrote:
EDIT: post a TK list you ran in the 6th ed book that cannot be run legally with the new one
The issue isn't whether a previous TK list can't be "run legally," but whether the current rules improve that list or not. I've already discussed why I think the current version is not an overall improvement.
"Both revisions removed the possibility to play armies I had spent massive time and money on, for one reason or another, without providing satisfactory (to me) replacements."<redacted --Janthkin>
In what way does the current Tomb Kings book remove the possibility to play models from your current TK collection? It is literally THE SAME ARMY with changed magic, cheaper units, and new stuff. Which you could see if you had both halves of your brain.
the color purple wrote:"Both revisions removed the possibility to play armies I had spent massive time and money on, for one reason or another, without providing satisfactory (to me) replacements."<redacted --Janthkin>
In what way does the current Tomb Kings book remove the possibility to play models from your current TK collection? It is literally THE SAME ARMY with changed magic, cheaper units, and new stuff. Which you could see if you had both halves of your brain.
The armies in their previous forms, as I developed them, and which motivated me to select them in the first place, are now out, and I find their replacements unsatisfactory. As you would have realized had you thought about it. <redacted --Janthkin>
It is not "the same army," any more than Mandarin and Cantonese are the same language just because they use the same characters. Again, you like the new rules, I don't.
I've been a TK player since several years before they had an army book of their own. I've seen them calve away from homogenous Undead, I've seen them go from having unstoppable scrolls to having autocast Incantations to having a set of spell lists. I've felt awkward at how easy it was to win game after game by shotgunning through flank or rear charges with Incantation/MWBD spam, so much so that I moved to Night Goblins for a more challenging army to play with.
I'm pretty much happy with the new book, on balance.
Having the lore of Light makes perfect sense for a desert people who absolutely despise Nagash and his long-fanged hangers-on and want nothing more than to destroy each and every one of them.
The new rules for coming out of the ground seem interesting. The old rules made it far to easy to wipe out support units. Combine charging deepstrikers with the old Casket 'smart bomb', and it seemed that every small unit and artillery piece had a very short eggtimer. And it's handy to synergy this with the banner of coming from below, in a way which massively reduces damage done by the Misfire dice.
I'm not too happy about characters being immune to my own heal spells, but no the other hand one can now potentially head a Chariot unit four times in a phase, with more wounds recovered on each heal. That's going to be nasty.
In a new environment in which magic is basically a WMD, I can see an argument to give a high-risk power boosting item to someone other than my Heirophant. If shotgunning through a bubble hex or augment spell wins the game, who cares if a lesser priest has to spend a few centuries coalescing?
TK are not a big selling army and will likely always be one of the most infrequently undated armies. Whilst it would be nice to be at the cutting edge of the power creep arms race, if it's a choice between that followed by eight years of being throat-stamped by every other army with a more recent book, or being one of the first to receive this toning-down of magic combos and removal of win buttons and thus be viable for longer, I hope we've got the latter.
If anything, my only massive gripe is Skeletons becoming cheaper and yet we have the same old models for the same amount of money.
If anything, my only massive gripe is Skeletons becoming cheaper and yet we have the same old models for the same amount of money.
Sorry to break my trolling character, but while I thought this at first, it is a whole lot better than what happened to my Orcs-the same old models for twice the price.
Face it, some people are pissed off at the new TK. The biggest, worst thing they did was make it so that our characters can't be healed. Explain this one to me, in a REASONABLE argument, using REAL points, so that at least you did one thing right.
How does it make sense in game? Last edition's Tomb Kings weren't overpowered. Not even close. They could use Spear of Antarhak on top of the healing spell. There was never a problem with this. Never.
How does it make sense in the fluff? This is where it gets out of hand. Why can't TK characters be healed in the fluff? You're telling me you can reanimate zombies, skeletons, statues, undead constructs, and basically anything you want with magic. Even humans and elves can use the lore of life to heal themselves. So using a fluff reason, please, give me ONE good reason as to why TK shouldn't be allowed to heal our characters.
Seriouspost: I don't really see the issue, fluffwise. The TK characters are still around via an entirely different form of magic than that which animates their troops, it's logical to me that the magic necessary to bring back destroyed skeletons or repair constructs is an entirely different set of stuff from the magic necessary to heal characters (who are either fully sentient flesh corpses animated by Nagash's curse, or immortal, dessicated but still perfectly alive liche priests.) Healing characters requires magically stitching the wounds of sentient, "living" things, healing troops/constructs requires magically reanimating broken junk. Note that Life's Regrowth spell's fluff bit specifically indicates that it is closing wounds, mending bones, and whatnot. TK don't use that spell because 1. The don't use life magic in any form and 2. because it heals living things back to their natural state. It's debatable whether such a spell would even affect TK characters.
Basically, TK characters and TK troops are animated via two different forms of magic (well, three, since Priests are unique). Standing skellies back up or sticking the parts back into an Ushabti is a fairly simple spell that a Priest can do in battle, reawakening a Tomb King or whoever is a much more involved and difficult process that needs to be undertaken (rofl) after the battle has ended, and stitching the wounds of an already awoken and sentient character is not something TK magic does. Why don't you ask why we can't buff our units to larger sizes or raise whole new ones, like VC do. It just isn't what Khemrian magic is about.
lindsay40k wrote:I've been a TK player since several years before they had an army book of their own. I've seen them calve away from homogenous Undead, I've seen them go from having unstoppable scrolls to having autocast Incantations to having a set of spell lists. I've felt awkward at how easy it was to win game after game by shotgunning through flank or rear charges with Incantation/MWBD spam, so much so that I moved to Night Goblins for a more challenging army to play with.
I'm pretty much happy with the new book, on balance.
Having the lore of Light makes perfect sense for a desert people who absolutely despise Nagash and his long-fanged hangers-on and want nothing more than to destroy each and every one of them.
That actually makes sense. I suppose TK's would want to find the best ways to kill their most hated enemies, and if it works on other armies as well, or even helps their own units, so much the better.
lindsay40k wrote:
The new rules for coming out of the ground seem interesting. The old rules made it far to easy to wipe out support units. Combine charging deepstrikers with the old Casket 'smart bomb', and it seemed that every small unit and artillery piece had a very short eggtimer. And it's handy to synergy this with the banner of coming from below, in a way which massively reduces damage done by the Misfire dice.
But why do you prefer EBS to the old ICFB? Why do you find it better for your army? And I mean for you, not the overall game or other players' armies or GW sales.
lindsay40k wrote:
I'm not too happy about characters being immune to my own heal spells, but no the other hand one can now potentially head a Chariot unit four times in a phase, with more wounds recovered on each heal. That's going to be nasty.
There's that word "potential" again. We're being deprived of sure good results for potential good results combined with potential really bad results.
lindsay40k wrote:
In a new environment in which magic is basically a WMD, I can see an argument to give a high-risk power boosting item to someone other than my Heirophant. If shotgunning through a bubble hex or augment spell wins the game, who cares if a lesser priest has to spend a few centuries coalescing?
That's probably making the best of it, I agree.
lindsay40k wrote:TK are not a big selling army and will likely always be one of the most infrequently undated armies. Whilst it would be nice to be at the cutting edge of the power creep arms race, if it's a choice between that followed by eight years of being throat-stamped by every other army with a more recent book, or being one of the first to receive this toning-down of magic combos and removal of win buttons and thus be viable for longer, I hope we've got the latter.
That's positive spin I guess.
lindsay40k wrote:If anything, my only massive gripe is Skeletons becoming cheaper and yet we have the same old models for the same amount of money.
I don't mind the same old models. But we're already paying more for the same old models!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
UberhAxTHC wrote:So nobody is bothered by the fact that TK are the slowest army in the game now? Like that makes sense? We're supposed to have the option of having a "fast moving chariot army", but we can't even march. What a sick joke, huh?
Uber, what do you think of EBS and the revised MWBD?
What I think about EBTS...I think the best way to explain it, is to describe my first thoughts on seeing it, and MWBD. For EBTS: Holy flying nerf batman! We can't charge the turn we pop up anymore? And that misfire chart...what? Are you serious? Reclaimed by the sands? That's awful! My final thought on EBTS: Omg it's <redacted; don't obfuscate obscenities --Janthkin> deep strike in fantasy, but WORSE. And even Deepstrike is hella unreliable...
When I first heard about the new MWBD, I was like, what's that? TK give their weapon skill to the unit they join? That's awesome!! Then after a long, hard minute, I realized I <was disappointed>. Before, I had this awesome king, who used his sheer force of will to command his warriors to march faster!! or fight harder!! I always imagined him screaming these things with his long mummyface as his will indeed was done. Now, I'm stuck with some ability that doesn't even have a fluff explanation to it. My Will Be Done. No exclamation point. For good reason. It's not nearly as exciting. I just have to come up with my own reason for how it works, and then it's always really lame, like the Skeletons around him are inspired so they fight harder...except they're dead...so then I'm like, I guess he has a magic aura or something, I dunno... <redacted --Janthkin>
You keep proving my point...you would made a terrible lawyer.
FYI, I've never used a chariot, and neither has anyone I've ever played against. We all pretty much agree they're crap. So I didn't know that chariots couldn't march...big deal. How's that on topic again?
Let me preface by saying I am not sure if this was a response to me. So if it was not please disregard the following. I realize that you may be having issues with others in this thread, I have been keeping my responses respectful please do me the same courtesy. Again not sure that was directed at me, but my comment is not a strawman as you used the example of having a "fast moving chariot army" followed by a comment about marching. I did not address the rest of your quote because I did not agree with its basic premise that we are now so much slower as opposed to how it was before (exception being that we cant use magic to charge anymore)
LordoftheSloths wrote:Miscast. Not Enough Power. Broken Concentration. And even if they manage to go off, only one shot from one caster. Again, how is unreliability better than reliability?
because I feel that the spells of the new lore are more powerful and I am willing to gamble on a more powerful outcome. However I understand and respect your position that you have a preference for reliability. on a side note I really like lore of nehekhara so I plan on having both my LHP and LP take nehekhara. also considering converting up a heirotitan to make it harder for my opponent to dispell.
On a side not (because I am curious) what are your plans? Are you going to try to keep playing your TKs or are you completely done? I only hope that you stay with them awhile to give them a full shakedown because players that are passionate about their armies are a good thing. My reason for asking is that I played Protectorate of Menoth when WM came out because my friends had taken the other factions. So I played them and really HATED them. So much so that I quit playing WM for over a year. Then I wanted to get back into WM, but I only had that one faction so prepared my self to slog through playing them, now they are my favorite faction and I really enjoy playing them.
<thread isolated -- I suggest everyone chill during this downtime>
edit: <okay, there was a LOT of pruning necessary in this thread; I'm going to reopen it, conditional upon the good behavior of the participants. If I have to come back here, it will be MY will that is done.>
Lordofsloths, when half of the models in your army suddenly become useless, not so that you don't want to use them, but so you CAN'T use them, us Chaos players will care.....
LordOfTheSloths, I composed a reply and it unfortunately got eaten by the ether on account of the thread being temp locked before I submitted it. I'll repost at some point.
UberhAxTHC wrote:
TK players have plenty to be pissed about with this new army book. It's not because GW didn't make TK overpowered. That's not why TK players are complaining. It's because TK players waiting so long for a new book, all the while doing their best with the weak 7th army rules they had, constantly getting raped because they were in need of an update more than any other army, and then when that update finally comes out, it actually makes the weakest army in the game EVEN WEAKER.
Uber, that is exactly what I had in mind. My dissatisfaction with the new TK book (sounds like yours too, and others) is proportional to how much I had actually looked forward to a new book, the length of time I'd been waiting, and the inadaquacy IMO of the product.
Question: what are you going to do?
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BlackDow wrote:Your telling me MWBD is bad...really? How is having your skeletons, your core tropps for 4pts a pop, hitting things on 3's and things hitting them on 4's a bad thing?
It's not a bad thing in itself. IMO it's nowhere near as useful as the previous rule, not by itself and certainly not taken in combination with the other revisions. That's my point.
BlackDow wrote:And you say that you always got your incantations off, ya thats true. Though in eight edition you a problem.
People can dispell 4 incantations at 2k if they have a decent amount of dispell dice. So you get one incantation off, maybe two depending on your opponents rolls.
. . . .
Also, the bound spells were cool i cant say anything else, but it doesn't scale well at all. Try playing 3k TK (the old book) with 8'th edition magic. It's not balanced if you roll five dispell dice for your opponent when you yourself have 10 incantations to cast. All which go off.
So, in 8th Edition TK had a problem getting off their incantations, except when they didn't?
I submit that there must have been ways to reconcile incantations with 8th Edition if GW had bothered to look for them. They clearly never had any intention of doing so.
BlackDow wrote:There is indeed a lot you complain about which i think is just you not liking the book. It wasn't nerfed at all, they got a huge boost! You can acually play TK now instead of having them stand on your shelf collecting dust.
Not "just" disliking the book. Disliking it for reasons. You may disagree with the reasons. That's fine.
Those of you who have decided their army sucks too badly to continue playing may PM me for my address so at you can remove these sources of such horrible nerd rage from your abodes.
Nagashek wrote: He, like many in my area frown on the use of special characters. Teclis especially has soured our views of them, and they are seen as gimmicks and crutches. The "Heavy Cav" that TK has is slightly less survivable than, say, Wild Riders. Which is to say not at all. They hit like Empire State Troops. Goblin Wolf Chariots are cheaper and hit harder, so I can understand ones reticence to appreciate their "buffs."
Spot on.
Nagashek wrote:Second, though there is a loss to the MWBD, I do LIKE the new ability. A poor replacement for your free spells, perhaps, but increasing a unit's WS, in essence getting the Helm of Command on any unit that a Prince or King joins. You questioned about "What if your king isn't tooled for combat?" My answer is that such a question is like asking "What if my bright wizard isn't geared to cast spells?" Is that not the (sole) function of a tomb king?
Not necessarily. He could be a general who directs the rest of the army, making sure other units move to the right place at the right time and get the other benefits of the previous MWBD! instead of being limited to the new MWBD.
Nagashek wrote:The magic system needed a little help. With how 8th ed was redone, the TK system was INCREDIBLY overpowered (read: Teclis level.) Perhaps you didn't run a LHP and 2-3 LP, but my regular opponants did. And they got spells off. Regularly. Even if I really tooled for anti magic, they could get off what they wanted, and that is friggin rough given what those spells did (ESPECIALLY the buff to the SSC. I mean, who wants that many hyper accurate templates dropped in their face every turn? Not me, sir. Not me.).
Seems to me that now you just about have to run that many L(H)P's. And sure they got their spells off regularly. That was the whole point of the system. Others have noted that TK's could actually have more trouble now getting incantations to go off, due to more dispel dice the opponent may now have. As for the SSC, why not modify the incantation so that it doesn't apply to stone throwers, if you think it was otherwise overpowered?
Nagashek wrote: Lore of Light I believe lets them fight their long standing fluff Nemeses, the Vampire Counts. This also does very nice things for the army, buff wise, and is a solid Lore.
That makes sense.
Nagashek wrote:As far as the scorpions are concerned, they were a might too strong for their cost before. I think lowering them by A wound was sufficient, but I haven't seen the new deployment rule. I do agree that nerfing the deployment rule AND forcing the unit to be deployed in that was was over kill. Leaving you with the option to deploy as normal would have been preferred.
If they had only dropped the number of wounds on TS's, I'd agree. Overall I think EBS is as I described it, <redacted -- do NOT use obfuscation to try and bypass the language filter. --Janthkin>
Nagashek wrote:In the end, GW has the EXCESSIVELY annoying tendency to add three fixes to any one problem when any one fix would do. (Strength of Scorpions and magic, is what I'm referring to here.) Most of your problems are understandable and I agree with you. My VC now sit on a shelf collecting dust. Sigh.
Have you decided what you're going to do now?
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Loki_TBC wrote:Those of you who have decided their army sucks too badly to continue playing may PM me for my address so at you can remove these sources of such horrible nerd rage from your abodes.
What a generous offer. Now, do you have anything else constructive to contribute?
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lindsay40k wrote:LordOfTheSloths, I composed a reply and it unfortunately got eaten by the ether on account of the thread being temp locked before I submitted it. I'll repost at some point.
Looking forward to seeing it.
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Nagashek wrote:
First, you complained on one or two occasions that the powerlevels of certain bound items had been decreased (in terms of going from a 4 to a 3, for instance.) I am curious, do you know how bound items cast now? Decreasing the power level is actually better, as you need to hit a smaller number and actually need to use your magic dice to cast them.
I overlooked this in my previous reply.
I don't think I commented either way on the changes in bound item power levels. Enkhil's Kanopi went from 4 to 3, so that would make it easier to use. But the Standard went from 3 to 5, which makes it significantly harder to use. That, on top of the huge cost increase.
hey LordOfTheSloths good to see the thread back open.
Have you given thought to what kind of list you might use if you use the new book? I really like the 4pt skellys and since I like masses of troops, I am thinking of using 2+ big blocks of skellys and several blocks of bowmen backing them up. I think I want to also try the heirotitan to help power through some spells, and they can help a block of skellys by thunderstomping enemy troops.(and try to use bound death spell to kill enemy bsbs)
I had actually been working on a bunch of skellies when the new book came out.
I really don't know. I'm still thinking if it's worth the additional investment of time and money. But your suggestion seems like a good place to start. Maybe I'll try something way outside the envelope, like a block of Ushabtis + Ramhotep.
With regard to ICFB compared to EBS. ICFB felt overpowered. Deepstriking and charging on the same turn, at the cost of announcing your dropzone? It was horrific. Two or three fairly modest units could put a solid eggtimer on an artillery base; when they arrived, they would charge a cannon without fear of taking a shot in return, wipe it out, overrun into the next war machine, and slaughter everything. Even one single scorpion would affect the game way more than its price warranted, by forcing an entire gunline to run away from its dropzone. It needed toning down.
EBS seems interesting. Note that I've not said I prefer it, I need more play. It seems to replace several similar rules for the same thing on different units ('natural' diggers and hidden legion skellies) with one rule for the same thing, which is good. It brings about synergy with that banner, and since I happen to favour a horsemen unit with BSB using this sort of thing to surround a unit that thought itself safe, the change does not worry me. We've lost a win button, and gained fewer mishaps.
Re easily forced incantations versus less reliable spells. It's swings and roundabouts. Healing spell and moving spell being combined into a bubble is very powerful, even if we lose the win button of magic phase flank charging chariots.
Re MWBD. We're in 8ed, where a spearmen horde gets 40-odd attacks. Making those hit on a 3+ is going to hurt. Our 'hit them more' augment now affects spearmen |(didn't before), and being distinct from MWBD means it can stack with it. Along with giving them Killing Blow. It's not far-fetched to see cheap skellies causing more damage than Chaos Warriors. We seem to be becoming the Tyranids of WFB; lots of buffing and spawning to keep up the pressure.
Re changes in magic items. These seem entirely in line with the O&G book, and we can expect the same for everybody else. Won't be long before everybody's in the same boat. Being a Night Goblin stalwart, I'm glad to have an army that's got some units with access to some magic banners that the graverobbers haven't had away with.
I agree with all the points the OP has and when i first read the book I immediately put my Tomb Kings army on E-bay. What many people that didn't play Tomb Kings aren't understanding is that players like myself and the OP played TK not because they were broken, or easy to win with, or were great for tournaments, but because the feel of the army and the lore was enjoyable. When something that you enjoy for a number of years gets changed to the point that you no longer enjoy it, you get angry. Angry for the time and effort put into your army that now doesn't please you. Angry at the people that reply to your unhappiness with insults and accusations of "whining". But most importantly, angry at ourselves for getting this attached to little metal and plastic models that end up making us unhappy.
As for the Gw trend of messing up armies for the old vets of them, I am used to it. They made my fun Chaos fantasy army totally unplayable when they released the Deamons books, they made my Chaos 40k army unfun with the new codex, and then they messed up my fun Tomb Kings. I am dreading the day they update the Dwarfs as that may be the day I finally stop playing anything GW related.
With regard to ICFB compared to EBS. ICFB felt overpowered. Deepstriking and charging on the same turn, at the cost of announcing your dropzone? It was horrific. Two or three fairly modest units could put a solid eggtimer on an artillery base; when they arrived, they would charge a cannon without fear of taking a shot in return, wipe it out, overrun into the next war machine, and slaughter everything. Even one single scorpion would affect the game way more than its price warranted, by forcing an entire gunline to run away from its dropzone. It needed toning down.
Sure, ICFB was powerful. It could also be compensated for to some extent, as you recognize, since you knew where the marker was and could move away from it, or at least prepare for the unit's arrival. In isolation, ICFB was definitely powerful, but it was one rule in the context of the overall TK list with all its other advantages and limitations.
BTW: why would you prefer a weakened rule for your own army? I can see opponents not liking it, but a TK player?
lindsay40k wrote:
EBS seems interesting. Note that I've not said I prefer it, I need more play. It seems to replace several similar rules for the same thing on different units ('natural' diggers and hidden legion skellies) with one rule for the same thing, which is good. It brings about synergy with that banner, and since I happen to favour a horsemen unit with BSB using this sort of thing to surround a unit that thought itself safe, the change does not worry me. We've lost a win button, and gained fewer mishaps.
The previous Banner also allowed horsemen to be hidden. And while the new rule may result in marginally fewer mishaps (3-4 doesn't wipe out the unit, but you still have to roll to see if the unit comes into play and you can easily flub those rolls), IMO that is an inadequate recompense for losing charging and being subject to EBS.
lindsay40k wrote:Re easily forced incantations versus less reliable spells. It's swings and roundabouts. Healing spell and moving spell being combined into a bubble is very powerful, even if we lose the win button of magic phase flank charging chariots.
You can make that argument. I just don't see it as better than, or even as good as, the previous rule. And don't forget that none of the Nehekhara augments are that easy to cast, especially for W1's and W2's who pretty much have to roll two or more dice and thus risk miscast (7.4% miscast when rolling 3 dice, 9% when rolling 4 dice), plus Not Enough Power and Broken Concentration (haven't done the mathhammer on these yet).
lindsay40k wrote:
Re MWBD. We're in 8ed, where a spearmen horde gets 40-odd attacks. Making those hit on a 3+ is going to hurt. Our 'hit them more' augment now affects spearmen |(didn't before), and being distinct from MWBD means it can stack with it. Along with giving them Killing Blow. It's not far-fetched to see cheap skellies causing more damage than Chaos Warriors. We seem to be becoming the Tyranids of WFB; lots of buffing and spawning to keep up the pressure.
Yes, MWBD is useful, but in far fewer circumstances than MWBD! was. And since TK's probably will have a lot fewer early charges, it probably won't be useful for one or more turns. So, one or more turns of no use at all, then use only in close combat. I have trouble seeing this as anything but a nerf.
lindsay40k wrote:Re changes in magic items. These seem entirely in line with the O&G book, and we can expect the same for everybody else. Won't be long before everybody's in the same boat.
That reminds me of what my father used to tell me, about how, just because everyone is jumping off a bridge, that doesn't mean you have to jump too. It was bad for O&G and it's bad for TK's and everyone else.
lindsay40k wrote: Being a Night Goblin stalwart, I'm glad to have an army that's got some units with access to some magic banners that the graverobbers haven't had away with.
I suppose there's that.
My main contention remains: taken as a whole, the TK revision IMO is not only not an upgrade, it's a step backward. It's now a matter of how to react to it.
Why would I prefer a weakened rule for my army? Because it was getting boring, winning 90% of games I played, having what felt like two 'win buttons' in the form of ICFB Scorpions guaranteeing kills on artillery and forced flank or rear charges guaranteeing the breaking of any line unit. This is why I switched from TK to Night Goblins - I wanted an army that'd be a challenge to play. Whilst tournament stats might not agree, I found that the army I took along to friendly games was horrifically powerful. It was satisfying for a while, but then it became tiresome, being able to immediately punish the first mistake my opponent made and then be virtually guaranteed a win. Even if they formed a solid castle deployment, I'd have so many units appearing inside and charging on the same turn that I'd make a hole in the most determined wall.
RE magic items. Be honest, a large amount of army-specific items were duplicates of the weapon of +2 strength or the gem of 4+ ward or suchlike, or else pretty useless stuff that really didn't matter in the midst of a six-unit brawl. Whereas in 7ed we had a short list of generic items and a big list of 'our' items, we now have an absolute stack of generic items and a short list of 'our' items. In a couple of years, it seems a given that only Skaven will be on the old army book standard. We're the second army that's been thrown int he deep end of the new standard.
RE MWBD/!. The thing to bear in mind here is that this is actually the rule that Mummy Lords had when taking the Tomb King's Crown item in WHA: Undead. With our previous TK book, they became in effect low level wizards and contributed to the army's IMO overpowered magic phase. In this book, they've been returned to having their previous ability. Good thing? Bad thing? For me, it's 'interesting thing', and one I'll enjoy putting to the test when setting my minions upon the filthy Nagash-lovers.
All in all, it feels like TK are an army that'll be a challenge to play with and not one that immediately destroys the enemy the moment they make one mistake. I'm more inclined to field them now than I was a year or two ago.
lindsay40k wrote:Why would I prefer a weakened rule for my army? Because it was getting boring, winning 90% of games I played, having what felt like two 'win buttons' in the form of ICFB Scorpions guaranteeing kills on artillery and forced flank or rear charges guaranteeing the breaking of any line unit. This is why I switched from TK to Night Goblins - I wanted an army that'd be a challenge to play. Whilst tournament stats might not agree, I found that the army I took along to friendly games was horrifically powerful. It was satisfying for a while, but then it became tiresome, being able to immediately punish the first mistake my opponent made and then be virtually guaranteed a win. Even if they formed a solid castle deployment, I'd have so many units appearing inside and charging on the same turn that I'd make a hole in the most determined wall.
RE magic items. Be honest, a large amount of army-specific items were duplicates of the weapon of +2 strength or the gem of 4+ ward or suchlike, or else pretty useless stuff that really didn't matter in the midst of a six-unit brawl. Whereas in 7ed we had a short list of generic items and a big list of 'our' items, we now have an absolute stack of generic items and a short list of 'our' items. In a couple of years, it seems a given that only Skaven will be on the old army book standard. We're the second army that's been thrown int he deep end of the new standard.
RE MWBD/!. The thing to bear in mind here is that this is actually the rule that Mummy Lords had when taking the Tomb King's Crown item in WHA: Undead. With our previous TK book, they became in effect low level wizards and contributed to the army's IMO overpowered magic phase. In this book, they've been returned to having their previous ability. Good thing? Bad thing? For me, it's 'interesting thing', and one I'll enjoy putting to the test when setting my minions upon the filthy Nagash-lovers.
All in all, it feels like TK are an army that'll be a challenge to play with and not one that immediately destroys the enemy the moment they make one mistake. I'm more inclined to field them now than I was a year or two ago.
Well, I guess that's fair enough. I just never saw TK as that overpowered. Maybe you were just a much better player?
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LunaHound wrote:Units fulfilling what their role made them to be is not over powered.
Making things random for TK is not a way for to balance them , they are not Skaven or Goblins.
I felt there are better ways to "nerf" TK
It reminds me of the scene from Caddyshack where Chevy Chase quotes the Zen philosopher Basho: "A flute with no holes, is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a Danish." A TK army without incantations, is not a TK army (as I was attracted to play it). I preferred donuts to Danish.
LordOfTheSloths wrote:It reminds me of the scene from Caddyshack where Chevy Chase quotes the Zen philosopher Basho: "A flute with no holes, is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a Danish." A TK army without incantations, is not a TK army (as I was attracted to play it). I preferred donuts to Danish.
I liked warhammer ( both fantasy and 40k ) when each army had a unique flavor and play style to them.
Now they are all made from same template with some stat changes, they even got lazy on wargear and let us pick from common BRB list....
instead of letting us customize our character with their fluffy gears...
LunaHound wrote:
I liked warhammer ( both fantasy and 40k ) when each army had a unique flavor and play style to them.
Now they are all made from same template with some stat changes, they even got lazy on wargear and let us pick from common BRB list....
instead of letting us customize our character with their fluffy gears...
LunaHound wrote:
I liked warhammer ( both fantasy and 40k ) when each army had a unique flavor and play style to them.
Now they are all made from same template with some stat changes, they even got lazy on wargear and let us pick from common BRB list....
instead of letting us customize our character with their fluffy gears...
TBH whilst I don't necessarily agree with all the OP's points, I agree with his sentiment. TK book has bad internal balance, but then it was written by the guy who wrote the IG and Nid Codices.... which have bad internal balance. What I don't like:
Skeleton Warriors: troops below a certain standard (like Slaves & Gobbos) should pay 1/2 points for gear. Warriors are in the bracket too IMO. I'd never take them anything other than as they come, IMO the Parry Save is better than the extra Attacks, and I'd rather have 25% more models for the cost of armour.
Skeleton Horsemen: way over-priced..... worth about 8 points IMO.
Chariots: fine, but why weren't the rules for Chariot units in the main rulebook?
Ushabti: 30 points is the maximum I'd consider paying for them with bows, 35 with additional hand weapons, and I might stretch to 40 for a great weapon.
Hierophant: having an army depend on one model in the age of laser-guided war machines, uber-magic, self-imolating magic etc is poor design IMO. Instead a living Hierophant should have provided more buffs that disappear if they die. Same comment applies to VC.
Tomb Scorpion: I'm ok with not being able to charge. Removing the wound and upping the cost was unnecessary.
EBTS: Compulsory? Why? Screw that.
Skulls of the Foe: wait, so it got harder to break stuff and the cost went up....?
War Sphinx: seriously, what is this guys obsession with adding unnecessary special rules?! It already Thunderstomps, if you want to have it cause more damage just give it more attacks!
Poison/Killing Blow: Envenomed Sting..... sigh.
Construct: would have liked there to be a way to do a full (Qatari?) construct list.
Things I don't mind:
Same magic system: don't see the need for a unique one, and it adds nothing to my experience.
MWBD: I prefer the new effect, and it's non-dispellable.
Casket: being a War Machine that doesn't tie down a Priest is a plus.
With regard to ICFB compared to EBS. ICFB felt overpowered. Deepstriking and charging on the same turn, at the cost of announcing your dropzone? It was horrific. Two or three fairly modest units could put a solid eggtimer on an artillery base; when they arrived, they would charge a cannon without fear of taking a shot in return, wipe it out, overrun into the next war machine, and slaughter everything. Even one single scorpion would affect the game way more than its price warranted, by forcing an entire gunline to run away from its dropzone. It needed toning down.
See I've heard this argument before, about how powerful ICFB was against artillery pieces and really all I can say is: why shouldn't it be?
Put simply, I faced Empire and Dwarfs regularly enough with my old TK's, and occasionally my Beastmen, to know that if i put any monster on the table, it'll likely eat three facefulls of cannon fire before it moves an inch. Don't get me wrong, I've no huge objection with a strong war machine counter to monsters, but I don't see why those same machines shouldn't have something solid to fear. Anyway, It's not like ICFB was risk free, you might not get the unit in at all if you were unlucky, also there was always a chance of rolling a misfire and losing some of the army before it arrives and most importantly; It wasn't taking things apart in the first turn! a single cannon can earn up to 5 times it's points back on turn one if they get a lucky shot on your Greater Daemon.
GMR wrote:See I've heard this argument before, about how powerful ICFB was against artillery pieces and really all I can say is: why shouldn't it be?
Put simply, I faced Empire and Dwarfs regularly enough with my old TK's, and occasionally my Beastmen, to know that if i put any monster on the table, it'll likely eat three facefulls of cannon fire before it moves an inch. Don't get me wrong, I've no huge objection with a strong war machine counter to monsters, but I don't see why those same machines shouldn't have something solid to fear. Anyway, It's not like ICFB was risk free, you might not get the unit in at all if you were unlucky, also there was always a chance of rolling a misfire and losing some of the army before it arrives and most importantly; It wasn't taking things apart in the first turn! a single cannon can earn up to 5 times it's points back on turn one if they get a lucky shot on your Greater Daemon.
Agreed with him. One of the mission assigned to flyers / skaven burrowers / flank troops is usually anti-artillery, and some are better at that than others... The Dwarves had something to fear, regarding their artillery!
LunaHound wrote:
I liked warhammer ( both fantasy and 40k ) when each army had a unique flavor and play style to them.
Now they are all made from same template with some stat changes, they even got lazy on wargear and let us pick from common BRB list....
instead of letting us customize our character with their fluffy gears...
This is the start of a TK list destined for failure. I hope you're only planning to play for fun. Here's why:
Khalida is bad now, just accept it. She's not cost effective in any way. This is probably the one thing that made TK players angry more than anything else : we used to be the undead ranged army, and now we can't field such a thing competitively anymore.
There's no point in bringing a second Casket. You only get the bonus D3 power dice once, and you're not going to have so many power dice that you can actually cast both Lights of Death. Not if you're casting your real spells, which are worth so much more than Light of Death.
2 Catapaults is always awesome.
A Hierotitan is a big 175 point piece of wargear for your priest, that gets shot down and hands over kill points like they're candy. Really, you spend 175 points for +D3 to your casting rolls? That might end up being +1 to your casting rolls the whole game. You really think that's worth 175 points...?
TK players will now find that our choices haven't been opened up. They have been limited severely by what is now competitive, and what is pure garbage. Yes, Ushabti with great bows look awesome. But the fact is, they suck. Anything with EBTS is now far too random to be used competitively. All of our monsters are Undead, so if they lose combat, and they will, the opponent isn't even going to have to roll to hit or wound you for those last 2 wounds...they're just going to crumble off. So you can take all the sphinxes, colossus, and hierotitan out of the bag of competitive units. Let's see...what else we got? There's literally ONE reason now to take a Tomb King over a prince, and that is the Golden Death Mask. If you have another reason for choosing a TK over a Tomb Prince, I'd like to hear it. Tomb Heralds are only good for the BSB, which is probably the most cost effective thing in our entire list for what it does. Necrotects are far too squishy...if your opponent knows anything about TK, the Necrotect won't last one round in combat. So they're not worth it unless you spend more points on magic items to keep him alive, and by that point, he's no longer worth the price you're paying for his ability. Oh wow, 4 point Skeletons. With gear options that are so ridiculous, you can't help but laugh. You go ahead and put Light Armor and Spears on your Skeletons. I won't. Taken just as they are, Skeletons are probably the best thing in our army book now. I find it hard to resist the urge to just run blocks of 100 for points denial strategies. Skeleton archers are beast too...always hitting on 5's is good stuff, and the difference between Skeleton warriors and archers in combat is so slight, they can be used as an anvil unit with no problem. Skeleton horseman are still a joke, and that's all I really have to say about them. The chariots in the new TK book are exactly what I think they should be. If they charge, they're awesome. If they get charged, they suck. Overall, a pretty competitive unit when used right. Tomb Guard should be WS4 base, but w/e...we always put our Prince in there anyways, and I guess that's how the designers saw it too. But it just makes losing that Prince so much more painful...Ushabti are ridiculous. Why the nerf? Did anyone really see Ushabti dominating any tables in the previous edition? I sure didn't. On the plus side, Ushabti can take FC now...so there's hope for them. Nobody is going to spend their special points of scarab swarms. Probably the worst unit in the book now, since it's so weak, AND has to deal with EBTS. I really wish the rumours of these having an option of upgrading them to a flying unit were true...they might have been so good. So many missed opportunities...Carrion are broke as crap now. They nerf everything in the book, and buff this one unit, and probably for the sole reason that Carrion models weren't making enough sales (GW really does think like that), and now they're flying ogres with three attacks. Seriously, you can spam these and be in for some big surprises. Skull catapault, I already said was awesome, better in pairs. Having ONE Casket, MIGHT be cost effective. I know most people are screaming in their heads right now, "WHAT YOU NOOB, YOU ALWAYS TAKE A CASKET DUH", but hear me out...High Elves take a 80 point magic banner that gives them the same +D3 power dice every phase. Because it's a banner, it's on a character inside a unit. This standard is MUCH more survivable than our Casket, which sits on its own, begging to be shot at. So ask yourself this...what are you really paying those extra points for? Is it the Light of Death? Because Light of Death was SO super nerfed this edition, you're crazy if you think it's as good as it used to be. Just about every game I play with a Casket, I get mad at myself for bringing it, because I use all my power dice on my Nehekharan magic, rather than using the Casket's Light of Death, because that's where those power dice are better spent. So, IMHO, I don't see Caskets as cost effective. Note, I didn't say they weren't competitive, I just said I don't think they are cost effective. Don't flame me!
So, let's review, shall we?
Units I find to be competitive/cost effective:
Tomb Prince
Tomb Herald with BSB Liche Priest/ High Priest (We HAVE to take them...no choice in the matter)
Skeleton Warriors
Skeleton Archers
Tomb Guard
Skeleton Chariots (barely)
Necropolis Knights (if you take EBTS, you've screwed this up.)
Ushabti (if you run them with Great Weapons. Anything else, and you're asking for points sink.)
Carrion
Screaming Skull Catapault
Casket of Souls (again, just barely)
Everything else...is just a toy.
Tomb King - one reason for running him only, and it's not a GREAT reason, either.
Tomb Herald without BSB - Why you would ever run this, I have no idea...
Necrotect - Lame, just lame. He can build giant living statues but he can't fashion a suit of armor to keep him alive one round of combat?
Skeleton Horsemen - You know why they suck. You just do.
Everything with EBTS - The rule is garbage, and therefore, any unit with it are garbage. I know it seems rather black and white, but when it comes down to it, it's the truth. In a competitive enviroment, this rule sucks. Period.
Ushabti with anything other than great weapons - Wtf are you doing...? Really?
Sphinxes - Monsters suck in a competitive enviroment anyways. Top that off with some Undead crumble after combat res, and you have a bonafide bad unit that's sure to do nothing more than attract fire and die. Don't say "they're good when they flank tho!!!1!!!" EVERYTHING is good when it flanks, that's such a weak argument I can't stand it.
Colossus - This is the one unit I have the most trouble with. I really can't decide if it's worth it or not. Generally, I would say the same thing about them that I would Sphinxes. If you take a Bow of the Desert, then it obviously sucks. Really though, for a few more points you could get a Sphinx, which, even though I don't like Sphinxes, I will say that I think they are better than Colossus.
Hierotitan - I have been over this a hundred times with myself and others...it's a fancy 175 point piece of wargear. Would you pay 175 points for a piece of wargear that adds +D3 to all your casting rolls? Probably not. Add on to this, that said piece of wargear can get shot by a cannon on your opponent's turn one, die instantly, and you'll never even see the +D3 get used, and you just handed over 175 points to your surely smug faced opponent. It's NOT good, just flashy. Go look at High Elves. They have a banner that does what this thing tries to do, but it actually does it right.
So, what do we have here? Out of all the new units released for TK, only Necro Knights are Warsphinxes are really worth a damn. The COMPETITIVE TK armies that have been around since last edition are probably going to stay the exact same, maybe adding in one unit or two in the form of a Necro Knight squad or a Warsphinx if they're risk takers. This is going to break down into one inevitable end...
The nightmare that is the cookie cutter TK.
You talk of options? You're joking, right? Read everything I posted, and if it doesn't make sense to you, or you disagree, please, comment and give me your insight on the matter, I'd love to hear it. But IMO, TK are heading towards cookie cutter village, with 2x Catapaults, a Casket, a prince, a priest, skeleton warriors and archers out the ass, some chariots, some Tomb Guard...and that's about it. Huh, that's funny. That's the exactly same damn cookie cutter build we found ourselves with last edition, except it got nerfed a lot.
Khalida is bad now, just accept it. She's not cost effective in any way. This is probably the one thing that made TK players angry more than anything else : we used to be the undead ranged army, and now we can't field such a thing competitively anymore.
I disagree. Her cost effectiveness is easily calculated. Poison is actually a force multiplier once things get harder to kill than t3, 5+as. Which is to say, with her in a unit, 100 skeletons with her against our very own t8 monster, 100 skeletons finish with 14.6652 wounds, assuming all can fire. That same unit of 100 skeletons will only do 3.6659 wounds without her. Which means you would need just a shade over 400 skeletons shooting bows to do the same job. That's a force multiplier of 4!
Against t3 AS5+ dudes, Khalida is 2x as effective with 100 archers with Khalida, she does the same as 200 archers without her. Which means that every skeleton in the unit counts as 2 skeletons when shooting. 365 points for Khalida, Which means a unit of 61 archers with Khalida is exactly equal to a unit of 122 archers both in points, and ability against t3 5+as stuff. What's really nice, is at 31 wide, you have an effective range of just a shade over 18 inches, something that can be game-planned around if your opponent goes first and marches at you. Cost effect, and a pretty scary shooting phase to boot.
There's no point in bringing a second Casket. You only get the bonus D3 power dice once, and you're not going to have so many power dice that you can actually cast both Lights of Death. Not if you're casting your real spells, which are worth so much more than Light of Death.
I have to agree here, about the idea of of not bringing a second. I disagree that LOD is inferior to the "real" spells. Clearly the LOD is designed to help offset the units that Khemri only has poor answers for in today's game: War-machines, killy knights, big monsters. It's one of the best 0 risk options we have. Since it always hits our primary target, it's better, than a cannon for average wounds scored.
2 Catapaults is always awesome.
Skulls of the Foe is something that should always get considered.
A Hierotitan is a big 175 point piece of wargear for your priest, that gets shot down and hands over kill points like they're candy. Really, you spend 175 points for +D3 to your casting rolls? That might end up being +1 to your casting rolls the whole game. You really think that's worth 175 points...?
It's also a small foot-print thunder stomper... You're thinking one dimensionally. Getting into the flank or rear of a RnF unit is GREAT. Being able to target characters and throw 6 dice with his bound death spell is pretty darn good too. It's only "free points" if it's deleted without contributing, something I would hope the owning player would try to offset, by hiding him behind buildings, and limiting LOS to stuff that wtfganks him on one turn. Anything with EBTS is now far too random to be used competitively. All of our monsters are Undead, so if they lose combat, and they will, the opponent isn't even going to have to roll to hit or wound you for those last 2 wounds...
-- Most of the time, the War-sphinx should only ever be in a -3 hole, (he's hit the flank of a unit and is stuck grinding) Youre telling me out of 4 attacks from tomb guard (potentially augmented), a super-stomp, or for more sphinx attacks (again, potentially augmented) and then a
regular d6 thunderstomp that warsphinx isn't regularly going to be able to find 2 or 3 wounds against an opponent? Even if you lose by one, Construct prevents crumbling, a BSB prevents crumbling further.
they're just going to crumble off. So you can take all the sphinxes, colossus, and hierotitan out of the bag of competitive units.
Wrong. They add to the competitiveness of the overall army.. but you HAVE to know how to use them. You cannot commit willy-nilly to the front on a one off basis. You have to pick something, crush it, and be out of there before they knew what hit them... Just like the Old Tomb Kings... ...Tomb Heralds are only good for the BSB, which is probably the most cost effective thing in our entire list for what it does.
Wrong, Tomb Heralds artificially inflate the life-span of a king who is offensively armed. If you give your king the destroyer of eternities, and a cheap ward, you give the Tomb Herald in his unit the armor of silvered steel so you have a 2+ armor save against the wounds he's soaking. Or perhaps a ward-save.
Necrotects are far too squishy...if your opponent knows anything about TK, the Necrotect won't last one round in combat.
There are ways to protect against this.. that are amazingly easy to achieve. You're just not thinking about ways to protect the Necrotecht, your'e just whining because you're seeing a 2 wound t4 dude who's easy to kill. Also, it's not magic items that I'm talking about, it's tactics
Oh wow, 4 point Skeletons. With gear options that are so ridiculous, you can't help but laugh. You go ahead and put Light Armor and Spears on your Skeletons. I won't.
I will.
Taken just as they are, Skeletons are probably the best thing in our army book now. I find it hard to resist the urge to just run blocks of 100 for points denial strategies. Skeleton archers are beast too...always hitting on 5's is good stuff, and the difference between Skeleton warriors and archers in combat is so slight, they can be used as an anvil unit with no problem.
Unarmored archer skeleton units as an anvil? What? If I use them as an Anvil, The next turn when the hammerl comes in, my opponent will focus on my "anvil" and even if I do a good handful of wounds to the offending unit, he's gonna swing the combat in his favor, by a lot. This is a bad statement. One of the universal truths of the skeletons has always been "when given the choice to commit, never commit a hammer to an anvil that is getting shredded. You'll lose 2 units instead of just 1.
Skeleton horseman are still a joke, and that's all I really have to say about them.
And there goes your credibility. They weren't a joke in 6th/7th, and they are far from a joke today.
The chariots in the new TK book are exactly what I think they should be. If they charge, they're awesome. If they get charged, they suck. Overall, a pretty competitive unit when used right.
Nothing to add, other than when given the choice, figure out a way to charge a flank and not the front.
Ushabti are ridiculous. Why the nerf? Did anyone really see Ushabti dominating any tables in the previous edition?
Yes, actually, properly used, Ushabti were game-winners.. They had this knack for destroying your opponents Heavy Cav, and other ogre units, because they always struck before every other ogre in the game, except for a few chaos-y type ogres... because everyone felt if they were taking ogres, they needed to have Great Weapons. They were also really good at getting into the flank of a death-star type unit and hacking it apart.
I sure didn't.
that's too bad.
On the plus side, Ushabti can take FC now...so there's hope for them. Nobody is going to spend their special points of scarab swarms.
Probably the worst unit in the book now, since it's so weak, AND has to deal with EBTS.
war... machine... hunters... They are the second best option we have (right behind our crappy light/heavy cav.)
I really wish the rumours of these having an option of upgrading them to a flying unit were true...they might have been so good. So many missed opportunities...Carrion are broke as crap now. They nerf everything in the book, and buff this one unit, and probably for the sole reason that Carrion models weren't making enough sales (GW really does think like that), and now they're flying ogres with three attacks.
Seriously, you can spam these and be in for some big surprises.
What? So you're suggesting super effective lists might include a sort of Tomb-Kings-Royal-Pegasus-Cavalry-But-With-Carrion type philosophy? Now I've seen it all...
So, let's review, shall we?
So, what do we have here? Out of all the new units released for TK, only Necro Knights are Warsphinxes are really worth a damn. The COMPETITIVE TK armies that have been around since last edition are probably going to stay the exact same, maybe adding in one unit or two in the form of a Necro Knight squad or a Warsphinx if they're risk takers. This is going to break down into one inevitable end...
Negatory. Competitive armies from last edition don't stand a lick of a chance in 8th. I know, because I refused to upgrade my army until my new book came out.
Options? You're joking right?
Nope, no joke. We have the option to do an all mounted army. A heavy construct/elite army, a footslogging horde army, a footslogging elite army, or a castled army, magic heavy, effectively.
Wow what a HUGE POST OF WHINING. If that $40 was THAT much of a waste trade it with someone or put it up on ebay.
As a old tomb kings player I can say I am extremely pleased with the new army book. The pictures are great, the story is solid, the rules are good. They got great model support right off the bat, and the rules to support them make them worth taking. I'm having a great time with mine.
You just said Khalida was good, you said Skeletal Cavalry was good, you actually went so far as to say spears on Skeleton warriors are good...and you're saying I've lost MY credibility?
Yeah....ok. o.0
Also, how about instead of saying WRONG, you say, IMO, because thats what it is. Your opinion. I'm not wrong about anything.
How about you guys try, just once, NOT to flame others for their opinions? Just wow...
UberhAxTHC wrote:
Everything with EBTS - The rule is garbage, and therefore, any unit with it are garbage. I know it seems rather black and white, but when it comes down to it, it's the truth. In a competitive enviroment, this rule sucks. Period.
My friend who destroyed 3 Hellcannons in an 'Ard Boyz using Sepulchral Stalkers would like to denounce the absurdity of this statement. EBTS is situational-but it does have its uses. If you can't find any use for it, you're doing it wrong.
Ragnar4 wrote:
*Tomb Swarms [sic: scarab swarms (fantasy Necrons!)]* snip
war... machine... hunters... They are the second best option we have (right behind our crappy light/heavy cav.)
EBS. Can't rely on them showing up. Can't charge when they do. Squishy.
But you may be right. They may be the second best option we have. Which says all you need to say about the new book.
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timetowaste85 wrote:
UberhAxTHC wrote:
Everything with EBTS - The rule is garbage, and therefore, any unit with it are garbage. I know it seems rather black and white, but when it comes down to it, it's the truth. In a competitive enviroment, this rule sucks. Period.
My friend who destroyed 3 Hellcannons in an 'Ard Boyz using Sepulchral Stalkers would like to denounce the absurdity of this statement. EBTS is situational-but it does have its uses. If you can't find any use for it, you're doing it wrong.
EBS units do have some use, but they are very situational. The issue isn't whether EBS is completely useless, but whether it's an improvement over ICFB.
IMO it is not, for reasons stated by myself and others. Furthermore, consider: in a six-turn game, you get nothing out of an EBS unit on turn one. It may not turn up at all, in which case you've wasted the point value. If it comes in on turn six, you might as well not have it come in at all because it can't charge. If it comes in on turns four, three or two, you get two, three or four turns' worth of use, if you manage to survive being charged by whatever enemy unit(s) you place the EBS unit near. The only good thing about EBS compared to ICFB is mishap 3-4, which doesn't prevent the unit from entering on a later turn.
Ragnar4 wrote:
*Tomb Swarms [sic: scarab swarms (fantasy Necrons!)]* snip
war... machine... hunters... They are the second best option we have (right behind our crappy light/heavy cav.)
EBS. Can't rely on them showing up. Can't charge when they do. Squishy.
But you may be right. They may be the second best option we have. Which says all you need to say about the new book.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
timetowaste85 wrote:
UberhAxTHC wrote:
Everything with EBTS - The rule is garbage, and therefore, any unit with it are garbage. I know it seems rather black and white, but when it comes down to it, it's the truth. In a competitive enviroment, this rule sucks. Period.
My friend who destroyed 3 Hellcannons in an 'Ard Boyz using Sepulchral Stalkers would like to denounce the absurdity of this statement. EBTS is situational-but it does have its uses. If you can't find any use for it, you're doing it wrong.
EBS units do have some use, but they are very situational. The issue isn't whether EBS is completely useless, but whether it's an improvement over ICFB.
IMO it is not, for reasons stated by myself and others. Furthermore, consider: in a six-turn game, you get nothing out of an EBS unit on turn one. It may not turn up at all, in which case you've wasted the point value. If it comes in on turn six, you might as well not have it come in at all because it can't charge. If it comes in on turns four, three or two, you get two, three or four turns' worth of use, if you manage to survive being charged by whatever enemy unit(s) you place the EBS unit near. The only good thing about EBS compared to ICFB is mishap 3-4, which doesn't prevent the unit from entering on a later turn.
So again, IMO the EBS rule is a net negative.
According to UberhAxTHC, the issue is that EBS is completely useless. I'm arguing that it isn't completely useless. The unit I mentioned costs 165pts and took out 615pts with ease in a single game. Will it do that every time? No. No unit is 100% effective every game. And no unit SHOULD be like that. That's why level 6 spells exist-to kill off death star units which are like this. This unit has its uses, and I was merely stating that there are uses. Saying it's a black and white rule is ignorant and foolish. 8th edition armies don't have 'point and click' options anymore (other than level 6 spells). It's a pull in the right direction. I hope Ogre Kingdoms come out very similarly to O&G and TK. In fact, I happen to LOVE the 8th ed O&G book. I think it's more flavorful and better-balanced than before. I quit playing O&G in 7th, and rebought my entire army in 8th because I think the book is 100x better. I am also used to the 6th ed TK and I feel the 8th is a much better book-it is more polished and well rounded. But, I'm done arguing in this thread-having gotten my first warning and having everyone disagree with me is getting old. I guess my group is just a different type of gamer-we play a different way and we figured out how awesome the book is (and it's winning every game [except one] that it plays). Maybe someday you guys will too. Hope it's soon, so you can enjoy the book.
Since when was random arrival not a problem with ICFB? Sure, you could charge on the same turn, but you still might waste your points if you roll a "Buried in the Sands" result or something. Just because ICFB had some advantages over EBTS doesn't make EBTS useless. Blanket statements like "it's 100% wrong and everything sucks" is an OPINION. Keep that in mind. There are people out there who have great success with it. It's not perfect, but jumping to conclusions based on personal bias isn't really that useful.
TK did, IMHO, deserve a simple d6 wounds spell, but it's still not too bad. Sure, their magic was unique, but their spells were kinda sub-par really. Extra Attacks, Movement and Heals were really the only spells worth casting...
IMHO the Warsphinx, Necrosphinx and Sepruchal Stalkers are great units, and I've never seen TK players get bad performance out of them.
Uber, unless you show me facts<--- (and this is key here. I don't want "But look at it on paper! No one takes this!" when it's clear to many people that this option is well taken, such as Necrotects ) that show that TK are 80% uncompetitive, then come back to me. The new TK book is hardly garbage, and I don't need to be a GW fanboy to know that.
And why can't Arkhan the Black be in there? He was around with Nagash in the main storyline of Nehekhara... I really doubt that anyone else finds him out of place there.
UberhAxTHC wrote:You just said Khalida was good, you said Skeletal Cavalry was good, you actually went so far as to say spears on Skeleton warriors are good...and you're saying I've lost MY credibility?
Yeah....ok. o.0
Also, how about instead of saying WRONG, you say, IMO, because thats what it is. Your opinion. I'm not wrong about anything.
How about you guys try, just once, NOT to flame others for their opinions? Just wow...
1) Stop putting words in my mouth.
A) You declared: "Khalida is not cost effective in any way." I said because Khalida has a clear point in which she increases a skeletons efficiency (100% efficiency increase) that spending the same number of points on skeleton archers as khalida = 0 sum efficiency. Furthermore every point you spend on skeleton archers after that is at a 2-1 bonus. I didn't say she was good, I there's a metric that defines her efficiency. But I'll come out and say it. She's good. There. Are you happy?
B) Yep, Skeleton Cavalry WAS good. In 6th ed a unit of 16 (4x4) with full command and the war-banner in the flank of just about anything was a win for the skeleton cavalry. Since most opponents didn't care about your skeleton cav (because really, the stats are laughable) When you put your heavycav unit in the on the faaaar flank, facing the center, they usually didn't freak out about it. Then suddenly the only stat that mattered in 6th and 7th ed (M value) your cav had a 24 inch effective range. 3 ranks, standard, outnumber, flank, and war-banner? This unit clocks in at just a shade over 300 points... it roffelstomped stuff worth 5-600 routinely. Even heads up against 1 attack units this unit would run my opponent off with continual efficiency. If your brutal killing power can't run them off, the fact that you cause fear and out-number is a godsend. So yes. Cavalry were good in 6th and 7th (they got nerfed in 7th because they had to run 5x3, but it was pretty much a wash) So what's this about my credibility? Light Cavarly was great too, as long as you understood how, and when to sacrifice them.
C) Again, Words placed in my mouth. I didn't say that Spear Skellies were good, I just said that I would take them. As far as all of that shakes out. I'm pretty sure it's a wash against most armies. 6+ ward-save against attacks from the front is going to save 1 more skeleton per 6 wounds, 7 more attacks ought to get you one more wound against most things. (obviously there are exceptions, Chaos you want the save, goblins you want the wounds) Spear Skellies with the 6+ Regen are decidedly "worth it" since they usually get the best of both worlds.
I'm not going to say 'blah blah blah' it's my opinion, when you're blatantly wrong. I just can't do it. The vitriol you were spreading was wrong. If you can prove through some sort of argumentation that you aren't wrong, I'm all ears...
As to flaming. I was under the impression that "flaming" was the act of dismissing what someone had to say with an insult that is unrelated to the actual situation at hand, AKA an Ad Hoc Logical Fallacy: Ie: "Uberhaxthc you are wrong because your clownshoes you seem so keen on wearing are waaaay too tight."** At no point did I flame, or attack you personally, just because you're insulted by my response doesn't make it a flame.
I was just a jerk about the way I went about correcting the wrong-ness of your post, something I'll own with full openness and honestly.
**Note: I'm not actually trying to insult you here, this is just an example, I'm certain you have lovely feet sans clownshoes.
Cryonicleech wrote:
And why can't Arkhan the Black be in there? He was around with Nagash in the main storyline of Nehekhara... I really doubt that anyone else finds him out of place there.
This is like putting Morathi in the High Elves book. She was around Maleketh in the main storyline of Ulthuan, i doubt anyone would find her out of place there too.
Well, if Morathi came back, apologized profusely and swore fealty, again, the High Elves might take her back, if there weren't years, and years of blood feud to get past.
There's a story about how Tomb Kings are just really, really senile, and angry about their senility. Perhaps Settra's mind has forgotten about some of the most Heinous crimes committed against the Tomb Kings which has helped gloss over the far, far past.
Or perhaps when he does remember the crimes, he can't remember who, exactly amongst his ranks committed the crimes against him... Then he wonders why he's not wearing any pants...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordOfTheSloths wrote:
Ragnar4 wrote:
*Tomb Swarms [sic: scarab swarms (fantasy Necrons!)]* snip
war... machine... hunters... They are the second best option we have (right behind our crappy light/heavy cav.)
EBS. Can't rely on them showing up. Can't charge when they do. Squishy.
But you may be right. They may be the second best option we have. Which says all you need to say about the new book.
Meh. We used to be able to depend on them, now we can't.
At very best, you're in your opponents war-machine line on turn 3, but a unit of 3-4 swarms against most war-machines, is usually going to be able to present enough gusto to roll up a war-machine line even after taking some wounds.
Apophas is also really good at dealing with war-machines. Regenerate makes him ignore 50% of the non-flaming cannon shots that *do* manage to hit him...
As to "The odds the unit never shows up"
Starting on turn 2:
Raw Rate of 66%
61% of the time he actually hits the table without just up and dying.
Turn 3.
The math gets a bit wonky here, you have to take the number of times he doesn't show up (33%) and then calculate for that 33%.
88% of the time he's shown up by turn 3
83% of the time he hits the table without just up and dying
Turn 4
95% of the time he's shown up by now
90% of the time he's shown up on the table and not died to a bad roll
Turn 5
98% of the time he's shown up
93% he's shown up without dying because you're unlucky
Turn 6
99% of the time, he's shown up
94% of the time he's not dead because of a roll of a misfire, and then a roll of a 1 or a 2
Turn 7
99% of the time he's shown up
94% of the time he's denying your opponent the points he would get if he died.
So yes, 1 out of 50 times in a 5 turn game,
and 1 out of 100 times in a 6 turn game, Your unit will fail to show up.
I guess that's just part of the price we pay for being able to show up in an opponents rear and put immediate pressure on his entire battle-line with one unit.
What I find alarming is that Khalida was considered effective... when thrown in a unit of 100 Skeletons.
Most TK players are not going to throw Khalida in a unit of 100 models. They're going to throw her in a unit of about 30-50 Archers. I do not remember the new Skellie Archer prices by heart... but the "double effectiveness" versus T3 5+ save there? At 360-ish points for Khalida, I'm... pretty positive the second archer unit will - at the same size - not cost 360-ish points. Furthermore, that's two units that must be tied up instead of one to deny shooting prowess, along with two units that must be torn apart instead of one (as in the one big unit case, each casualty is felt twice as hard).
Khalida and her bodyguard / bowmen only really show their cost when getting the Multi-Shoot bonus... but that is by no means a stable thing, and even with Multi-Shoot you once more return to only x2 potential if going for the bubble instead of just her unit.
Cryonicleech wrote:
And why can't Arkhan the Black be in there? He was around with Nagash in the main storyline of Nehekhara... I really doubt that anyone else finds him out of place there.
This is like putting Morathi in the High Elves book. She was around Maleketh in the main storyline of Ulthuan, i doubt anyone would find her out of place there too.
That is... such a bad comparison. The difference here is that an army built with the Tomb Kings list lead by Arkhan the Black can represent the undead fighting AGAINST Nehekhara and Settra. Just because the general idea of the book is to make a list that represents the Khemrans (?) who fought against Nagash doesn't mean they couldn't represent the same army fighting against Settra. It's not like Nagash and Arkhan didn't use undead themselves, for christ's sake they created them (Well, Nagash, really.)
@ragnar4 , you forgot to factor in that all the time hes showing up late = times the warmachine are firing away carefree.
Which pretty much defeated the purpose of someone thats supposed to be warmachine hunting.
Your logic is almost like , the intention was the "eventual" elimination of the warmachine, which i agree you get the KP if he finally got to them .... bit too late though dont you agree?
LunaHound wrote:@ragnar4 , you forgot to factor in that all the time hes showing up late = times the warmachine are firing away carefree.
Which pretty much defeated the purpose of someone thats supposed to be warmachine hunting.
Your logic is almost like , the intention was the "eventual" elimination of the warmachine, which i agree you get the KP if he finally got to them .... bit too late though dont you agree?
It always felt like turn 3 was the sweet turn for dealing with war-machines unless I had carrion 40 inch charging war machines on turn 1. You honestly don't think that it's fair to have your opponent buy something and not get to use it at least once, or twice... do you?
You can either commit some form of redundancy to war-machine hunting... such as light cav, carrion, and 3 stalkers... That way if the stalkers are late to the party, the carrion can go after the war-machines, if the carrion get tied up, the light cav can go after the machine... Or "pure" redundancy, which is to say 2 units of 3 stalkers... or even 3 units of 3 stalkers.
You're sounding like there's some sort of "not going to do anything ot anyone" because they aren't here on turn 2 sort of logic.. which, believe me, sometimes a magical unit in the rear of my opponent is a good thing!
Scorpions really have a tough time killing warmachines in time. 3 carrions do a GREAT job of warmachine hunting as they are basically 2 wound flying orges. Stalkers are where its at.
Stalkers offer something that the scorpions and carrion don't... the psychological effect of not knowing when or where they will deploy. I take 2 squads of 3 with tremendous success. 2 offers much more control then just one squad that could get set off course. The stalkers aren't a squad obliterating unit, BUT, they DO put more wounds then warmachines have on VERY easily. I have noticed that friends I have played game after game against are deploying in completely different ways then they used to, rarely to their advantage. Knowing the stalkers are going to come and get ya significantly changes the way you deploy. In REAL LIFE playing REAL GAMES I have found that stalkers are worth their weight in gold. They are not the knock out first punch of the fight, they are the FINISH HIM of the battle.
Scorpions really have a tough time killing warmachines in time. 3 carrions do a GREAT job of warmachine hunting as they are basically 2 wound flying orges. Stalkers are where its at.
Stalkers offer something that the scorpions and carrion don't... the psychological effect of not knowing when or where they will deploy. I take 2 squads of 3 with tremendous success. 2 offers much more control then just one squad that could get set off course. The stalkers aren't a squad obliterating unit, BUT, they DO put more wounds then warmachines have on VERY easily. I have noticed that friends I have played game after game against are deploying in completely different ways then they used to, rarely to their advantage. Knowing the stalkers are going to come and get ya significantly changes the way you deploy. In REAL LIFE playing REAL GAMES I have found that stalkers are worth their weight in gold. They are not the knock out first punch of the fight, they are the FINISH HIM of the battle.
So now, in place of an 85-point Tomb Scorpion that reliably showed up and could deal with war machines consistently, you need TWO units at 165 POINTS EACH to get the job done, and with less reliability. I.e., 330 points to do what 85 points could do, but less predictably. I fail to see how that's a net improvement. Stalkers have some utility, no doubt, but at what cost?
Scorpions really have a tough time killing warmachines in time. 3 carrions do a GREAT job of warmachine hunting as they are basically 2 wound flying orges. Stalkers are where its at.
Stalkers offer something that the scorpions and carrion don't... the psychological effect of not knowing when or where they will deploy. I take 2 squads of 3 with tremendous success. 2 offers much more control then just one squad that could get set off course. The stalkers aren't a squad obliterating unit, BUT, they DO put more wounds then warmachines have on VERY easily. I have noticed that friends I have played game after game against are deploying in completely different ways then they used to, rarely to their advantage. Knowing the stalkers are going to come and get ya significantly changes the way you deploy. In REAL LIFE playing REAL GAMES I have found that stalkers are worth their weight in gold. They are not the knock out first punch of the fight, they are the FINISH HIM of the battle.
So now, in place of an 85-point Tomb Scorpion that reliably showed up and could deal with war machines consistently, you need TWO units at 165 POINTS EACH to get the job done, and with less reliability. I.e., 330 points to do what 85 points could do, but less predictably. I fail to see how that's a net improvement. Stalkers have some utility, no doubt, but at what cost?
Your argument that the book has to be better than the last is myopic and fallacious.
Scorpions really have a tough time killing warmachines in time. 3 carrions do a GREAT job of warmachine hunting as they are basically 2 wound flying orges. Stalkers are where its at.
Stalkers offer something that the scorpions and carrion don't... the psychological effect of not knowing when or where they will deploy. I take 2 squads of 3 with tremendous success. 2 offers much more control then just one squad that could get set off course. The stalkers aren't a squad obliterating unit, BUT, they DO put more wounds then warmachines have on VERY easily. I have noticed that friends I have played game after game against are deploying in completely different ways then they used to, rarely to their advantage. Knowing the stalkers are going to come and get ya significantly changes the way you deploy. In REAL LIFE playing REAL GAMES I have found that stalkers are worth their weight in gold. They are not the knock out first punch of the fight, they are the FINISH HIM of the battle.
So now, in place of an 85-point Tomb Scorpion that reliably showed up and could deal with war machines consistently, you need TWO units at 165 POINTS EACH to get the job done, and with less reliability. I.e., 330 points to do what 85 points could do, but less predictably. I fail to see how that's a net improvement. Stalkers have some utility, no doubt, but at what cost?
Your argument that the book has to be better than the last is myopic and fallacious.
It simply needs to be in-line with 8th.
No, my argument is in line with what most TK players had been hoping for, an IMPROVED army book. As far as I'm aware, there were NO TK players who went around saying, "Dang, I sure wish I had a new army book that's simply in line with 8th!"
Yes, a book SHOULD be better than the last version. Or at least, not worse. I remain of the opinion that the new TK book is worse than the previous version.
LordOfTheSloths wrote:
As far as I'm aware, there were NO TK players who went around saying, "Dang, I sure wish I had a new army book that's simply in line with 8th!"
Funny, I don't know a single TK player who didn't say that.
The TK book is tremendously improved from the previous one. I'll just focus on magic for now.
TK magic in the previous book was terrible. All your opponent had to do was glance through your book and know what to stop.
-D6 S4 hits? lolz, bring on you flameless fireball. No need to dispell.
-Move/charge in the magic phase? Bring your crappy skellies on. Might stop it if chariots are going to charge, but even then they only have a few impact hits. Usually no need to dispell.
-Fight combat/shoot in the magic phase? Ok, it gives you a ghost of a chance to kill something now. This is probably getting dispelled.
-Casket? Most dangerous of the lot, but still not many casualties. Might save a couple of dice for this.
You know whats really funny? If GW had ruled that TK magic works as RAW for bound items in 8th(roll to see the power level of the incantaction, then use PD to try to meet it.), then you'd be singing the praises of the new TK Lore.
LordOfTheSloths wrote:
As far as I'm aware, there were NO TK players who went around saying, "Dang, I sure wish I had a new army book that's simply in line with 8th!"
Funny, I don't know a single TK player who didn't say that.
I find that hard to believe, specifically with respect to TK, and generally. Nobody I know has ever wanted a so-so new army book, let alone a book that's worse than the previous book, simply in order to get in line with the latest BRB.
Tzeentchling0 wrote:
The TK book is tremendously improved from the previous one. I'll just focus on magic for now.
TK magic in the previous book was terrible. All your opponent had to do was glance through your book and know what to stop.
As opposed to now, where all your opponent has to do is glance through whatever Lore's list your L(H)P's roll on? Please.
Tzeentchling9 wrote:
-D6 S4 hits? lolz, bring on you flameless fireball. No need to dispell.
-Move/charge in the magic phase? Bring your crappy skellies on. Might stop it if chariots are going to charge, but even then they only have a few impact hits. Usually no need to dispell.
-Fight combat/shoot in the magic phase? Ok, it gives you a ghost of a chance to kill something now. This is probably getting dispelled.
I'm sure you managed to get off more than a few incantations per turn. You prefer Lores to incantations, fine. I don't.
Tzeentchling9 wrote:
-Casket? Most dangerous of the lot, but still not many casualties. Might save a couple of dice for this.
So now it's more dangerous? So a 58% chance of hitting four targets is better than a 100% chance? I think not.
Tzeentchling9 wrote:
You know whats really funny? If GW had ruled that TK magic works as RAW for bound items in 8th(roll to see the power level of the incantaction, then use PD to try to meet it.), then you'd be singing the praises of the new TK Lore.
No, I'd be saying the same thing I said about getting a few new units that look interesting: it's just trying to polish a turd.
timetowaste85 wrote:I'm with Tzeentchling: my friend who played TK was DYING for a codex in line with 8th. And he's VERY happy with it.
Is that all he wanted? To be "in line with 8th"? Did he think that was all that was needed? Because you can be "in line with 8th" and be worse off than you were before. I think if your friend is honest he'll admit he wanted, not just an "in line" book but a better book. He may think that the new book is both "in line" and "better", but that's two different issues.
Sloths, let me ask you this: Do you really like the Tomb Kings?
Because if you do, quit yer , suck it up, stop crying, and start playing again.
I would like to point out, once again, what happened to Chaos; half of the models in our army got whipped out and put into their own and we can't mix and match between Codicies. Do you know what that means? That means the fact that I payed $45 for those ~eight model units, all six of them, suddenly just became wasted investment. Simple Maths: thats $270 of my army, just whipped out. Now, add to this the Bloodthirster and Lord of Change, again, $45 I beleive, suddenly we are up to $360. And my Chaos Army was always more Mortals, imagine someone who had spent alot more money, enough to have a balanced (between Daemon and Mortal) army.
Now, on top of that $360 loss from the Daemons, Beasts of Chaos were also taken away from Chaos Players. So those four Minotaurs ($15x4=$60), Brayshaman ($15), and two units of Beastmen ($60) I bought, ON TOP OF the Lords and Heros ( about $45 there) AND THEN the book ($20). That's $560, not including basing and paints, conservatively, another $15, for a total of $575.
EXCUSE ME while I play you the worlds smallest violin; at least you can still use all your gak....
A new edition of army should never have to be " Hey! atleast your army didnt turn into **** like mine "
Thats not sloth's fault , thats GW's fault.
Possibly true, but my Sympathy Meter is still surprisingly low. At least he can adapt to the changes. This, coupled with the fact that Chaos Units really need to be feilded in 15+, require 5 Models per Rank, and come in 12 Models per Box, really killed Warhammer for me :(
A new edition of army should never have to be " Hey! atleast your army didnt turn into **** like mine "
Thats not sloth's fault , thats GW's fault.
Possibly true, but my Sympathy Meter is still surprisingly low. At least he can adapt to the changes. This, coupled with the fact that Chaos Units really need to be feilded in 15+, require 5 Models per Rank, and come in 12 Models per Box, really killed Warhammer for me :(
Trust me i know how you feel , i too have Chaos army. Worse yet i made custom sized movement trays for them , how do you feel when it all doesnt fit! Omgaaaaa lol unfortunately , GW can also say we can adapt to the changes.... "buy a second box of warrior" 12x 5 boxes = 60
you can line them how ever you want now xD
To be fair , see it from my point of view of why i say its GW's fault.
An new army book doesnt always mean improvement now , here is what irks me.
An "improvement" comes in the form of buffed New units , to get us to buy new products.
An "old" army list that worked well previous edition , will NEVER function the same way again. This forces you to change to the new format of things.
Again, either buy new unit for new synergy, of suffer draw back of old units that doesnt really work together.
This will happen to every army book into the future.
Slarg232 wrote:Sloths, let me ask you this: Do you really like the Tomb Kings?
Because if you do, quit yer , suck it up, stop crying, and start playing again.
Nobody is forcing you to read this thread or participate in this discussion.
Slarg232 wrote:
I would like to point out, once again, what happened to Chaos; half of the models in our army got whipped out and put into their own and we can't mix and match between Codicies. Do you know what that means? That means the fact that I payed $45 for those ~eight model units, all six of them, suddenly just became wasted investment. Simple Maths: thats $270 of my army, just whipped out. Now, add to this the Bloodthirster and Lord of Change, again, $45 I beleive, suddenly we are up to $360. And my Chaos Army was always more Mortals, imagine someone who had spent alot more money, enough to have a balanced (between Daemon and Mortal) army.
Recall the very beginning of the OP, when I pointed out how in 40K my pure World Eaters army was made unplayable. So yes, I am well aware of what happened with Chaos, certainly in the 40K context. (And TK is not the first army to receive such treatment, and certainly won't be the last.) That was the "Fool Me Once" in the title.
Slarg232 wrote:
Now, on top of that $360 loss from the Daemons, Beasts of Chaos were also taken away from Chaos Players. So those four Minotaurs ($15x4=$60), Brayshaman ($15), and two units of Beastmen ($60) I bought, ON TOP OF the Lords and Heros ( about $45 there) AND THEN the book ($20). That's $560, not including basing and paints, conservatively, another $15, for a total of $575.
I spent a lot on my WE40K army as well.
Slarg232 wrote: EXCUSE ME while I play you the worlds smallest violin; at least you can still use all your ****....
Swell, I can use the same models. To me, that's like being told that I have to speak Italian instead of English, but at least I can still use the same alphabet.
Guys lets not fight, lets discuss some TK strategies >.<
So i was thinking , there were tons of debates on HW vs Spears ,
then i was thinking of priest with augmenting spells.
HW+ shield's parry safe only works on front rank of 6+ Been as slow as they are, they 'll problably end up getting charged from multiple sides anyways.
Then we have the Augment spell with 5+ ward save. Works on all front yet doesnt stack with the 6+ parry safe.
With this in mind , can we say spears arnt so useless? especially when augmented? the extra damage done might very well swing the combat resolution by little bit
hence even less casualty from crumbling. ( another reason why i want to take LA )
LunaHound wrote:HW+ shield's parry safe only works on front rank of 6+ Been as slow as they are, they 'll problably end up getting charged from multiple sides anyways.
Gonna agree with Tzeentling et al, I want a book that's in line with the current edition and balanced with the other books, not a 7th Ed Daemons or Ogres book (to grab the two ends of the spectruum).
That being said, I think this is a poor book, with weak internal balance and a lot of over-costing.
Also, IMO Khalida is about 100 points too expensive compared to a Tomb King if you added comparable abilities.
LordOfThe Sloths, let's suppose you got the wish you seem to be expressing - that the new TK book made most every unit either the same or better than it was before; everything getting killier, or tougher, or cheaper, or a mix of the three.
Given that it took nine years for our book to get this update, how long do you think it'd take this 'arms race' approach of army book writing to make our army completely unplayable in a metagame full of armies with more recent updates than ourselves?
I'm not saying that the days of rapid 'power creep' are definitely over, but as a collector of an army with a very low refresh rate I'm somewhat relieved to see what appears to be a major levelling of the curve on which we will be falling behind in a few years.
We've gone from being 'that army that never runs away and always charges my flanks in the magic phase' to being 'that army that never runs away and has got more Killing Blow attacks than a sackful of Swarmlords'.
I'm not denying that it might have been fun to be one of the last army books to be rewritten on the old 'power creep' and have a guaranteed leafblower. But given the choice between that and the certainty of a long period of obsolescence, or else being viable and having a fair crack at still being viable in five years' time, I prefer the latter.
LordOfTheSloths wrote:Nobody is forcing you to read this thread or participate in this discussion.
True.
lordofthesloths wrote:Recall the very beginning of the OP, when I pointed out how in 40K my pure World Eaters army was made unplayable. So yes, I am well aware of what happened with Chaos, certainly in the 40K context. (And TK is not the first army to receive such treatment, and certainly won't be the last.) That was the "Fool Me Once" in the title.
Yes, but what happened to Chaos in the 40K context pales in comparison to what happened in the Fantasy Context; Even if they lost a few rules, Chaos Space Marines can still be played like the Legions. Half of the Hordes of Chaos army was just wiped out; only four units of CSM were wiped out. Once again, just because we lost a fair amount of rules in the last codex, doesn't mean our lists suck. They just can't be as fluffy anymore.
I spent a lot on my WE40K army as well.
And once again, you can still use yours. There is nothing stopping you from feilding a World Eaters Army, you just have to use a few Boltguns and such. I absolutely can NOT use my Beastmen or Daemons in my Warriors of Chaos army.
Swell, I can use the same models. To me, that's like being told that I have to speak Italian instead of English, but at least I can still use the same alphabet.
No, that's like being told that you can still speak English but have to understand Italian.
Wait...so the TK army book being changed and keeping all of the same models (and adding quite a bit more) but just making some rule changes is on par to the Chaos army books and codexes being split so that half the models/armies used were invalidated? That's the most ridiculous statement ever. I agree with Slarg-the changes did not make them unplayable, but it did completely destroy a lot of Chaos armies. Such a comparison is unfounded and whiney.
lindsay40k wrote:LordOfThe Sloths, let's suppose you got the wish you seem to be expressing - that the new TK book made most every unit either the same or better than it was before; everything getting killier, or tougher, or cheaper, or a mix of the three.
Given that it took nine years for our book to get this update, how long do you think it'd take this 'arms race' approach of army book writing to make our army completely unplayable in a metagame full of armies with more recent updates than ourselves?
I'm not saying that the days of rapid 'power creep' are definitely over, but as a collector of an army with a very low refresh rate I'm somewhat relieved to see what appears to be a major levelling of the curve on which we will be falling behind in a few years.
We've gone from being 'that army that never runs away and always charges my flanks in the magic phase' to being 'that army that never runs away and has got more Killing Blow attacks than a sackful of Swarmlords'.
I'm not denying that it might have been fun to be one of the last army books to be rewritten on the old 'power creep' and have a guaranteed leafblower. But given the choice between that and the certainty of a long period of obsolescence, or else being viable and having a fair crack at still being viable in five years' time, I prefer the latter.
There is some truth in what you say, certainly in view of GW's penchant for codex/army creep.
Yet, I am still left with the conviction that the current revision was not the only, and certainly not the best, way to address that issue, that GW has simply decided to delete any trace of distinctiveness (for TK and any other non-standard army), and that their motivation in doing so was primarily to get more sales from 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and have fathers with too much money.
And don't forget, getting those extra Killing Blows is far less certain than getting the previous incantations, what with those two new ways not to get a spell off and one new way to kill our L(H)P's in doing so.
This thread has pretty much focused the question for me to: Is the new book bad enough that I'm going to shelve my army (like I did with WE's in 40K), or is it worth putting in more time and money to build more units and keep going? It's a closer question now than when I put up the OP, I will say.
I'm not a Chaos player, but what GW did to Chaos players of all eras was abominable. I dearly hope to see a new Codex for CSM soon, and at the very least an Iron Warriors or Death Guard Codex within five years or so. /threadjack
lindsay40k wrote:I'm not a Chaos player, but what GW did to Chaos players of all eras was abominable. I dearly hope to see a new Codex for CSM soon, and at the very least an Iron Warriors or Death Guard Codex within five years or so. /threadjack
I'm with you there. There's a desperate need for pure Chaos Legions lists like we could run in the previous C:C
Anyway, back to the original topic:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
timetowaste85 wrote:Wait...so the TK army book being changed and keeping all of the same models (and adding quite a bit more) but just making some rule changes is on par to the Chaos army books and codexes being split so that half the models/armies used were invalidated? That's the most ridiculous statement ever. I agree with Slarg-the changes did not make them unplayable, but it did completely destroy a lot of Chaos armies. Such a comparison is unfounded and whiney.
Not exactly the same, but the point remains: the original armies, that people were attracted to playiing and spent time and money developing, have been deleted.
LordOfTheSloths wrote:Not exactly the same, but the point remains: the original armies, that people were attracted to playiing and spent time and money developing, have been deleted.
Pretty much every army had a shift in playing style because of the wholesale changes that 8th ed made. Tomb King's aren't unique, we're just late to the party. MSU had its heart and throat ripped out, its guts peed on, and the remains were scavegened and carried off to the 4 corners of the world by the most heinous of carrion. It seems that High Elves/Chaos are the the only armies anymore that can bring an MSU army to the table, and be sort of competitve, and Khemri used to be the kings of MSU in the worst way. That having been said, MSU really isn't the best possible build any more for any army. It was a philosophy that was really effective, but IMO damaging to the game as a whole.
To just add my two cents, I basically agree with the OP. I finished selling all my TK stuff on ebay two weeks ago, made a good chunk of change on it all since I bought it when they got their first seperate army book almost 10 years ago.
The price increase GW stuff is crazy, made double or more than what I paid for everything. 8th Ed is really disappointing and a lack luster boring TK army book was the end of my interest. I'll stick to Hordes for my fantasy game.
giant stegadon wrote:Man, I stopped coming to this forum because its 1000 posts of "what army should i start?"... and then... wow.
You come into a thread designed to complain about the new TK book, and you're surprised to see complaining inside of it? Seriously?
Then, to make matters worse, you actually complain about the complaining.
Except you had no good reason to come in here, only to whine.
Stop trolling, seriously. If you don't have something worthwhile to add, keep it to yourself.
There do seem to be more than a few posters whose mission in life is to demonstrate (to themselves at least) how "with it" they are, by ridiculing anyone who offers any criticism of GW. I think there's a name for this kind of poster . . . .
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Ragnar4 wrote:
LordOfTheSloths wrote:Not exactly the same, but the point remains: the original armies, that people were attracted to playiing and spent time and money developing, have been deleted.
Pretty much every army had a shift in playing style because of the wholesale changes that 8th ed made. Tomb King's aren't unique, we're just late to the party. MSU had its heart and throat ripped out, its guts peed on, and the remains were scavegened and carried off to the 4 corners of the world by the most heinous of carrion. It seems that High Elves/Chaos are the the only armies anymore that can bring an MSU army to the table, and be sort of competitve, and Khemri used to be the kings of MSU in the worst way. That having been said, MSU really isn't the best possible build any more for any army. It was a philosophy that was really effective, but IMO damaging to the game as a whole.
Actually, I do like 8th Edition's focus on larger units. But again, did that necessitate what was done in the new TK book?
Be fair, we don't have to rely on spells to get extra Killing Blows. We've got a unit of monstrous cavalry with it, and two attacks apiece. Our monsters bristle with it, making characters think very carefully about having a go. The Destroyer of Eternities can do it to dragons now.
Though it's going to be a right laugh, first time I buff any of those up to 5+ KB, I tell you what.
giant stegadon wrote:Man, I stopped coming to this forum because its 1000 posts of "what army should i start?"... and then... wow.
You come into a thread designed to complain about the new TK book, and you're surprised to see complaining inside of it? Seriously?
Then, to make matters worse, you actually complain about the complaining.
Except you had no good reason to come in here, only to whine.
Stop trolling, seriously. If you don't have something worthwhile to add, keep it to yourself.
wow I didn't think my single sentence in any way said I was complaining about people complaining. I was commenting that I was surprised about the amount of vitriol in this thread. Your response shows why a mod needed to scrub the thread, go eat a hamburger.
Agree with the OP and bemoan the continued loss of individuality amidst the armies in 8th, I looked through the new book and also decided that this army did not represent the one that I started collecting so it will be sold, along with the majority of my other fantasy armies. 8th edition has basically killed fantasy for me, very sad as I was for the longest time a fantasy fanatic :(
I like the original fluff and the loss of what makes the TK unique is appalling. As an educated and creative individual I want variety in my gaming not the streamlining, dumbing down and randomness injected by the latest edition, maybe 9th will be better
What hit me hardest of the TKing fluff changes was two things:
1) They were rebuilding. Read the last edition's Tomb King book. Things were to gak in the area because the river was still poisoned, and the earlier attempts at fixing... were mucked up by Orcs, I think it was. Orcs and Civil Wars. Beforehand, they were actually trying to have living thralls again. New book you get the idea that it's a bunch of undead dudes waking up playing undead chess in grabs for power, and then... ??? No idea what they'll do after they have their lands, other than sit on their throne and wait.
2) Making it overt that Skaven helped to kill Nagash. Now, while I get the point of this, it's become almost common knowledge by now... they didn't quite need to make it that obvious "Rat-like figures" and what-not. People who know, know. People who don't, don't, and it's not like it makes that heavy a difference as most people who don't know when reading the TK book are probably not interested in that fluff piece (considering it's covered in just how many other books as well?).
Of the two, second's extremely minor... but the first is big. Unless I missed something, it just made the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ??? Yeah, "fight Nagash" is part of it... but what then?
Minsc wrote:Unless I missed something, it just made the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ??? Yeah, "fight Nagash" is part of it... but what then?
The same can be said of any evil fantasy / science fiction race. Essentially, you've just pointed out why the good guys always win i.e. to follow most evil plans through to their logical conclusion would be a pretty dour ending to the story. Take some Warhammer/40K/LoTR examples below...
Nagash actually succeeds in turning every living being into his undead slave. Now what?
Tyranids consume every last molecule of biomatter in the universe. Now what?
Khorne kills every last living and daemonic entity in material universe and realm of chaos. Now what?
Sauron covers all the lands in a second darkness and enslaves Middle Earth. Now what?
Minsc wrote:the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ???
"When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer."
If anything the TK have got more of a plan than they had before Nagash. Back then, they ruled over slave economies with vassal states that were always having territorial disputes. At least now they've got a couple of longer term objectives beyond reaching the point of expansionist hubris:
Minsc wrote:the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ???
- Get our treasures back
- Teach Nagash and his hangers-on a lesson
you forgot:
- Order a bowl of figs and a glass of wine, forget that you ordered them while they are being found and brought to you, sit and stare at figs and wine for days, long enough for figs to rot, and wine to go vinegary, remember what they are, remember that you can't enjoy them any more, get really really angry, declare war on a country.
Minsc wrote:Unless I missed something, it just made the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ??? Yeah, "fight Nagash" is part of it... but what then?
The same can be said of any evil fantasy / science fiction race. Essentially, you've just pointed out why the good guys always win i.e. to follow most evil plans through to their logical conclusion would be a pretty dour ending to the story. Take some Warhammer/40K/LoTR examples below...
Nagash actually succeeds in turning every living being into his undead slave. Now what?
Tyranids consume every last molecule of biomatter in the universe. Now what?
Khorne kills every last living and daemonic entity in material universe and realm of chaos. Now what?
Sauron covers all the lands in a second darkness and enslaves Middle Earth. Now what?
1a. A few Dwarves, Skaven, and Greenskins have been surviving underground and prepare to rise against him. A horiffic magical backlash disrupts Nagash's control after a few hundred years, allowing Wraiths, Wights, Ghouls and Vampires to break free from his domination, forming armies of their own.
1b. Reset the world to the time of Sigmar.
2. The Tyranids, now consuming themselves, are wiped from the universe, and on a world where foresighted individuals stored their consciousnesses on a vast computer network machines begin stirring to alter matter and change inanimate materials into life forms and repopulate the universe.
3. Khorne rules his world of ash and sorrows from atop his throne of skulls. Then he removes his mask and it was really Tzeentch the entire time. Suckers! Without sentient beings to fuel the warp, Khorne slowly dies off, until, generations later, life evolves back to a point of sentience and rediscovers the ruins of the Old Ones. And even strange, skull shaped relics...
4. The human spirit, slowly simmering in the darkness, is touched by the power of Iluvatar, Eru, the One made manifest through his servant Manwe. Sauron uses his vast army to attempt an invasion of the Undying Lands, where he strives against the combined might of all the Valar, the full population of Elfhome, and even the one recovered Silmaril. Back in Middle Earth, the humans and hobbits and dwarves still living, inspired by Manwe and Orome, begin to fight back against the tyranny of Sauron. They are dispatched, brutally, but their determination inspires others, weakening Sauron's empire from within.
All of this is in keeping with the great some of Iluvatar, proving that even the machinations of Morgoth, the Great Deceiver who tried to pervert the song of Eru to his own whims has been folded into the plan of The One, to create the epic tale of this universe.
Nagashek wrote:Khorne rules his world of ash and sorrows from atop his throne of skulls. Then he removes his mask and it was really Tzeentch the entire time.
Nagashek wrote:Khorne rules his world of ash and sorrows from atop his throne of skulls. Then he removes his mask and it was really Tzeentch the entire time.
Tzeentch say, "O-TAY!!!"
Meanwhile, back at the original thread: I didn't address the new fluff, which I can take or leave, it doesn't make that much of a difference to me when compared to the larger issues. One thing I didn't mention that I'll mention now: the new book doesn't seem to have much in the way of painting advice. Newbies especially could have used some guidance.
After playing TK since day one, taking them to multiple state and national tournaments, I have had to retire them. It's not that you can't build a competitive list (although it's boring and forced), it us just that it isn't the army I signed up for. How they play has just changed too much and I don't enjoy them anymore.
The lore is pretty rubbish, the necrotect and herald were poorly implemented. Some of the new units are interesting, but only at the expense of what made the army different.
Not being able to rapidly held units or characters is greatly upsetting.
No magic banners in core is very limiting. You can do some great stuff with Princes, but that is about the only thing capturing my imagination in the list. Phalanx-tastic!
zemanjaski wrote:After playing TK since day one, taking them to multiple state and national tournaments, I have had to retire them. It's not that you can't build a competitive list (although it's boring and forced), it us just that it isn't the army I signed up for. How they play has just changed too much and I don't enjoy them anymore.
The lore is pretty rubbish, the necrotect and herald were poorly implemented. Some of the new units are interesting, but only at the expense of what made the army different.
Not being able to rapidly held units or characters is greatly upsetting.
No magic banners in core is very limiting. You can do some great stuff with Princes, but that is about the only thing capturing my imagination in the list. Phalanx-tastic!
I'm with you.
One other thing that makes the whole situation so unsatisfactory is that TK is my only WHFB army. So if I retire/sell it, I'm basically out of the game. I don't feel like working up another army, none of the others really appeal to me (except maybe Ogres), and even if I do go with another army, as soon as I finish it, if not before, GW will likely nerf the list with a new book (Ogres!) and I'll be back where I started except now with two armies.
Im just letting the army gather dust (joke intended? who knows?!).
It can sit there with its trophies and think about what it was once capable of (will the jokes stop?).
Seriously, ill probably sulk until im on holidays, then try and make something work. I think its going to be a HUGE unit of skeletons with spears, prince and herald (w/ some sort of banner), then auxilliary to that.
It doesnt seem viable to take multiple blocks anymore, we cant spam now, so a better choice seems to be to drift towards 'eggs in one basket', so that we get the most out of each and every spell.
Scorpions are still pretty good for killing wizards and auxillary. Chariots are good, but hurt by steadfast.
Im just not sure, ill see what I can come up with :(
I'm actually wondering how good a chariot unit will be in 8ed. Practically relying on misfires to avoid being hit by multiple wound template attacks, unlikely to break large units, and no more handbrake turns into flanks.
It'll smash through a mediocre-sized unit of mediocre troops, but then at 55ppm you'd expect nothing less.
Im looking to use them for taking out heavy auxillary - ogres, dyrads, beastherds - that sort of thing. They can still add a lot of wounds to otherwise protracted combats.
They arent what the used to be, steadfast is a serious pain in the ass for the TK, as well as the nerf to fear.
Any feelings regarding the special character herald?
zemanjaski wrote:Im looking to use them for taking out heavy auxillary - ogres, dyrads, beastherds - that sort of thing. They can still add a lot of wounds to otherwise protracted combats.
They arent what the used to be, steadfast is a serious pain in the ass for the TK, as well as the nerf to fear.
Any feelings regarding the special character herald?
Let's see: for only twice the price of an ordinary Tomb Herald, you get: +1 WS, +5 ward save, Killing Blow on 5+, Herald of Despair, and Flail of Skulls (worth 45 pts in the old book). And it's two extra wounds for whatever King/Prince it guards. For the price, it seems like a reasonable deal. Is it compensation for the rest of the book (combined with the other new goodies)? You be the judge.
zemanjaski wrote:Im looking to use them for taking out heavy auxillary - ogres, dyrads, beastherds - that sort of thing. They can still add a lot of wounds to otherwise protracted combats.
They arent what the used to be, steadfast is a serious pain in the ass for the TK, as well as the nerf to fear.
Any feelings regarding the special character herald?
Let's see: for only twice the price of an ordinary Tomb Herald, you get: +1 WS, +5 ward save, Killing Blow on 5+, Herald of Despair, and Flail of Skulls (worth 45 pts in the old book). And it's two extra wounds for whatever King/Prince it guards. For the price, it seems like a reasonable deal. Is it compensation for the rest of the book (combined with the other new goodies)? You be the judge.
You also get something with only two wounds, a light armour save of 6+ and a poor initiative. I really wouldn't expect him to last very long against anything with a half decent magic weapon. An Empire Captain could take him out, no problem.
zemanjaski wrote:Im looking to use them for taking out heavy auxillary - ogres, dyrads, beastherds - that sort of thing. They can still add a lot of wounds to otherwise protracted combats.
They arent what the used to be, steadfast is a serious pain in the ass for the TK, as well as the nerf to fear.
Any feelings regarding the special character herald?
Let's see: for only twice the price of an ordinary Tomb Herald, you get: +1 WS, +5 ward save, Killing Blow on 5+, Herald of Despair, and Flail of Skulls (worth 45 pts in the old book). And it's two extra wounds for whatever King/Prince it guards. For the price, it seems like a reasonable deal. Is it compensation for the rest of the book (combined with the other new goodies)? You be the judge.
You also get something with only two wounds, a light armour save of 6+ and a poor initiative. I really wouldn't expect him to last very long against anything with a half decent magic weapon. An Empire Captain could take him out, no problem.
I agree with this, Nekaph only stands half a chance if you put him on a chariot, at least then his armour is 4+, but then that's an extra 55 points and I'm willing to bet there are much better things to put those points on.
I've also played quite a few games with my new book and although there are parts of it I like, it just seems less functional than the old book somehow, I can't really explain it. Part of the problem seems to be they've kept pretty much all the old penalties for undead, or made them worse, and haven't really given them the kind of punch that such drawbacks would merit.
I thnk the worst part now is the Hierophant, is there any good reason they kept this aspect of the rules? I mean really. It's not like the book is so cheesy overpowerd it needs a 'Press here to disintegrate army' button, and now that he's a standard wizard he just seems to attract so much more attention than the old Liche Priests did, basically because he's providing the buffs and healing for the whole army at once he suddenly becomes a much more valuable target than a bunch of priests across the board all casting the same weak but effective spells.
Also, I think the dubious "benefits" of causing fear and being unbreakable are too hugely counterbalanced by having poor stats and armour, being unstable, having no march and no stand and shoot. But hey, at least our only artillery piece got more expensive and with half the chances to shoot!
In all likelihood, my Herald will stay on his horse, stay in his cavalry unit, and continue being a behind-their-lines unit delivery system - one that makes lost and killed Scorpions largely a thing of the past. Surround isolated unit, crush it next turn with multiple frontage charges with a BSB involved, advance into enemy flank as the hordes of KB infantry hit home.
i dont quite have the will power to read this entire thread but im not sure if its been mentioned, as far as the whole heirophant miscasting arguement...
i dont beleive tomb kings can complain about hat simply because vampire counts have been dealing wiht it alot longer that they have..
and personally i think the tomb kings ability for magic has become stronger, instead of trying to raise the dead you can just augment that unit and get a little hoorah on the side because you heal them everytime you hit them with an augment spell...
my 2 cents
rocksteadygreeny wrote:i dont quite have the will power to read this entire thread but im not sure if its been mentioned, as far as the whole heirophant miscasting arguement...
i dont beleive tomb kings can complain about hat simply because vampire counts have been dealing wiht it alot longer that they have..
VC's didn't have, as far as I know, an army-specific magic system expropriated from them, like TK's did.
VC's didn't have an army-specific magic system that attracted players to them and was one of the major reasons I and a lot of players chose them, like TK's did.
VC players knew going in what the army's problems were.
rocksteadygreeny wrote:
and personally i think the tomb kings ability for magic has become stronger, instead of trying to raise the dead you can just augment that unit and get a little hoorah on the side because you heal them everytime you hit them with an augment spell...
my 2 cents
Instead of every L(H)P having four incantations that always cast successfully, never miscast and were only subject to dispelling, as well as Tomb Kings/Princes having spell access with the same reliability, they now have a random selection of spells that can't be duplicated (with one exception per lore), have three ways not to go off, one way to not cast any more spells that phase, and one way to wound and/or kill their caster, as well as having Tomb Kings/Princes that are far less versatile. As I've argued above and others have added to, this is not a net gain for TK's IMO.
Beyond that, the whole random spell generation concept IMO is an unattractive feature of the game in general (and again, a big reason I went TK in the first place). It's like playing chess not knowing until you start the game if you're going to play with one queen, three knights or nine pawns.
Well a magic SYSTEM that is army specific i think is a little silly, why dont you take the silver lining on the vloud and say hey you have your own lore, that no one else but tomb kings can use, and no VC didnt have a system but they do have necromancy spells (can becast more than once a turn on hte same unit even)
"players new going into the army waht the problems were" i assume you knew that going into TK that shud your single most important heirophant die, your pooched, just like VC
albeit i will agree with the significantly less worth while tomb kings n princes, that could be a hard blow to deal wiht from going to a useful versitile lord/hero to a piipsquick who is hiny on the battlefeild, i WILL give you that.
and as far as the magic system goes, again it streamlines the game, and you still get your own independance about your lore, and if you are SO worried about not getting the exsact spell you want (unlikely if your running a level 4-rolling a single double lets you pick) then run an extra level 2 and your gaurunteed to get alll but the sig spell.
just because all your mages are no longer lore masters is no reason to have this much of a fuss, yess they are huge changes, some for the better others for the worse, take whats giving swallow the kick in the teeth and ramble on, if you go at it with a positive attitude, and adapt to your new book and style of play who knows you might find out you like it more than the last!
Did VC get a new book in 7th and were one of the best armies?
Did TK get a new book in 7th?
Does the fact that VCwho haven't had an 8th Ed update yet suffer from General-dependence not make it a bad rule that should have been dropped, especially with the new increased miscast risk in 8th?
, suck it up, stop crying, and start playing again.
