I always thought that there was a feudal planet called warhammer. Its possible since the lizardmen were created by the old ones the orks were created by the old ones and the eldar/elves werer also created by the old ones. Could it be possible.

In the old fluff the Warhammer world was indeed a planet in the 40k universe. However of the years it has been changed so that the world is in a different place all together.

No. It got retconned into oblivion.

which is a shame, really. I always liked that piece of fluff.

I prefer to think that the WHFB world is ancient Terra.

It didn't make much sense though somecallmeJack, seeing as if Sigmar was a missing primarch (as was alluded to early on) doesn't fit with the IoM's out look on non-humans on human worlds.

Over all it is better having the two universes as seperate.

I'm with Dawi
See it as ancient Terra.

Would prefer to keep it totally seperate or aleternate universe than potentially having Nids show up and nom nom the Wood Elves

the 2 universes are connected and there are crossovers that happen quite regularly, there is even fluff to support this from the codex's (Deamons and liber chaotica), but this seems to not widely be known or just ignored.

The connection is the Warp just to be clear

Really interesting concept, wish they had expanded it instead of just letting it go. Though I have often wondered how normal men with melee weapons are able to fight the same daemons that space marines with technologically advanced weapons fight. Also would be funny if the imperium pulled exterminatus on the fantasy world.

I realise that there are some 40K players with an irrational loathing of fantasy, but that would be a tad extreme Ashryu!

It used to be a sort of a separate dimension that also touched the same warp. It might still be, but it's no longer a plot point for either.

The idea of there being numerous dimensions connecting to the warp is certainly an interesting one, as is the fact that there's life in other galaxies. It makes Chaos both infinitely more untouchable, but also much more distant, since none of the Gods could really be seen to care about any particular issue in any particular galaxy in any of a potentially infinite number of dimensions.

Formosa wrote:the 2 universes are connected and there are crossovers that happen quite regularly, there is even fluff to support this from the codex's (Deamons and liber chaotica), but this seems to not widely be known or just ignored.

The connection is the Warp just to be clear

They aren't, and there's not. GW has explicitly stated that the two worlds are not connected.

Used to be, not any more.

Hell, you used to be able to randomly get bolters in WoC armies, if I remember right.

iproxtaco wrote:

Formosa wrote:the 2 universes are connected and there are crossovers that happen quite regularly, there is even fluff to support this from the codex's (Deamons and liber chaotica), but this seems to not widely be known or just ignored.

The connection is the Warp just to be clear

They aren't, and there's not. GW has explicitly stated that the two worlds are not connected.

then GW is demonstrating yet another example that they dont know there own fluff.

Liber Chaotica Describes a Deamon weapon that IS a Chainsword, and WoC army book has the "rending sword"
"as it is swung, this ever hungry blade growls and snals like a beast desperate for the taste of raw flesh"
this matches the Chainsword description in Liber Chaotica.

But the biggest connection is Deamons... as in the named one that are in both worlds, "But How??" I hear you ask.. the warp.
Its the same thing that underpins both worlds (Universes) both are distinctly separate, but still connected.

I have more examples if you want them, but next time try and word you response better =]
It looks like your being snotty

Formosa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Formosa wrote:the 2 universes are connected and there are crossovers that happen quite regularly, there is even fluff to support this from the codex's (Deamons and liber chaotica), but this seems to not widely be known or just ignored.

The connection is the Warp just to be clear

They aren't, and there's not. GW has explicitly stated that the two worlds are not connected.

then GW is demonstrating yet another example that they dont know there own fluff.

Liber Chaotica Describes a Deamon weapon that IS a Chainsword, and WoC army book has the "rending sword"
"as it is swung, this ever hungry blade growls and snals like a beast desperate for the taste of raw flesh"
this matches the Chainsword description in Liber Chaotica.

But the biggest connection is Deamons... as in the named one that are in both worlds, "But How??" I hear you ask.. the warp.
Its the same thing that underpins both worlds (Universes) both are distinctly separate, but still connected.

I have more examples if you want them, but next time try and word you response better =]
It looks like your being snotty

The worlds aren't connected in the background, as GW has explicitly stated as such. Yeah, maybe certain things are used across the two, but they aren't the same thing in both worlds. The worlds are not within the same setting. They are separate.

.... uh yeah I said they are seperate,
"But both are distinctly separate, but still connected."
And its obvious there seperate settings, same as DC/Marvel,
but even they CAN and HAVE had crossovers, same as fantasy and 40k, hell anyone remember that Dark emissary that put on a "a large cumbersome glove that destoys anything it touched" (paraphrased)

A Chainsword is a Chainsword in both worlds, the only diference is that superstitious belief turns a Chainsword into a Deamon weapon.

Have you goy a link to this "both worlds are completely 10000000% seperate" thing everyone has, otherwise its just hear say (not the band)?

Formosa wrote:
"But both are distinctly separate, but still connected."

You're disagreeing with yourself, now.

They can't be not connected, and connected.

Formosa wrote:.... uh yeah I said they are seperate,
"But both are distinctly separate, but still connected."
And its obvious there seperate settings, same as DC/Marvel,
but even they CAN and HAVE had crossovers, same as fantasy and 40k, hell anyone remember that Dark emissary that put on a "a large cumbersome glove that destoys anything it touched" (paraphrased)

A Chainsword is a Chainsword in both worlds, the only diference is that superstitious belief turns a Chainsword into a Deamon weapon.

Have you goy a link to this "both worlds are completely 10000000% seperate" thing everyone has, otherwise its just hear say (not the band)?

No, I don't have a direct link, I know for a fact though that GW has stated the two worlds ARE NOT CONNECTED, likely way back in a WD is where it's actually printed,due to in part to numerous conversations with employees that have been mentioned on this forum, and the fact that I myself have had an employee tell me they aren't as part of 'official policy'. Again, certain names are used, said names are few and far between, and the object is different.
It's funny that you say they're connected but separate, make your mind up, they can't be both.

They are everything, and nothing. They are acid trip.

iproxtaco wrote:

Formosa wrote:.... uh yeah I said they are seperate,
"But both are distinctly separate, but still connected."
And its obvious there seperate settings, same as DC/Marvel,
but even they CAN and HAVE had crossovers, same as fantasy and 40k, hell anyone remember that Dark emissary that put on a "a large cumbersome glove that destoys anything it touched" (paraphrased)

A Chainsword is a Chainsword in both worlds, the only diference is that superstitious belief turns a Chainsword into a Deamon weapon.

Have you goy a link to this "both worlds are completely 10000000% seperate" thing everyone has, otherwise its just hear say (not the band)?

No, I don't have a direct link, I know for a fact though that GW has stated the two worlds ARE NOT CONNECTED, likely way back in a WD is where it's actually printed,due to in part to numerous conversations with employees that have been mentioned on this forum, and the fact that I myself have had an employee tell me they aren't as part of 'official policy'. Again, certain names are used, said names are few and far between, and the object is different.
It's funny that you say they're connected but separate, make your mind up, they can't be both.

They can be both, its quite simple really.

The 40k universe (not setting) cannot in any way interact with the fantasy universe and vice versa, however the Warp is a Universe apart from either, the gods are the same as are the deamons and named Deamons, as a seperate universe it can and does interact with both.

So both are distinctly separate, but fundamentally connected through the Warp.

As to th hearsay about the "policy"
If I told a GW employee told me that Wood elves were next for update, would you ask for more solid proof or would you take it as upmost good faith?
On with the debate!

Formosa wrote:

They can be both, its quite simple really.

The 40k universe (not setting) cannot in any way interact with the fantasy universe and vice versa, however the Warp is a Universe apart from either, the gods are the same as are the deamons and named Deamons, as a seperate universe it can and does interact with both.

So both are distinctly separate, but fundamentally connected through the Warp.

As to th hearsay about the "policy"
If I told a GW employee told me that Wood elves were next for update, would you ask for more solid proof or would you take it as upmost good faith?
On with the debate!

Except for the fact that the universes don't share a singular Warp, and each has it's own, separate Warp, yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Nerivant wrote:

Formosa wrote:

They can be both, its quite simple really.

The 40k universe (not setting) cannot in any way interact with the fantasy universe and vice versa, however the Warp is a Universe apart from either, the gods are the same as are the deamons and named Deamons, as a seperate universe it can and does interact with both.

So both are distinctly separate, but fundamentally connected through the Warp.

As to th hearsay about the "policy"
If I told a GW employee told me that Wood elves were next for update, would you ask for more solid proof or would you take it as upmost good faith?
On with the debate!

Except for the fact that the universes don't share a singular Warp, and each has it's own, separate Warp, yeah, that makes perfect sense.

uh what?
gonna have to ask you to back this up, as everything I have read on Chaos pretty much states both are the same warp, just diferent "realities"
as in the Garden of Nurgle are both the same

Uh what?
It has never been stated that they share the same Warp.
Choose not to believe me if you want, but I asked about the similarities, and the employee told me that they are not the same universe as part of the 'official policy we've been told to tell you lot'.

this thread reminds me of when i had to explain the differnce between an Orc(fantacy) and an Ork(40k) to my friend who was just starting out

iproxtaco wrote:Uh what?

Lol "Uh what" "Uh what"


call an apple an apple, just because it doesnt call itself an apple, doesnt mean it isnt.

In other words, both the fantasy Warp and the 40k warp are the same, its not just similar in the fluff, its Identical, it doesnt require spelling out.

No, they're different universes.

As a player of both systems since about 1986 I can tell you definitively that at one point in time they were very much within the same universe. The war hammer world was a planet in the 40K universe that was cut off from the rest of the universe by a particularly violent warp storm that never ends. This has changed over the years into a more separatist mentality towards the two, but a long time ago that was cannon. From what I can recall the war hammer world was created by the old ones as something kind of like a zoo.

dude you got nothing to back that up, other than "some guy told me", I've given examples and references, you've just dug your feet in and said "nope", at least give me something.

Yes, and in the grid markness of the 41st millennium the planet was put to exterminatus, too much of a brier patch to be bothered with, what with all the chaos, greenskins and whatnot.

/I'll go be unhelpful somewhere else now.

Formosa wrote:dude you got nothing to back that up, other than "some guy told me", I've given examples and references, you've just dug your feet in and said "nope", at least give me something.

You want to me to tell you again that GW themselves have stated the two universes are entirely separate? Ok, GW themselves have explicitly stated that the two universes are entirely separate. The two universes are in no way connected, barring the interpretation of several items and themes which have remained in both due to them previously being connected. A chainsword in 40k, is not the same as a chainsword in fantasy. They were connected, but it was retconned around 2nd ed.

Officially, no. But I like to think that it is, owing to the Chaos Gods, the Orc/ks and the Old Ones, along with some other stuff.

Which ruins all of WHFB for me, as it loses the apocalyptic feel, but that is a whole different topic.

the Chainsword IS the 40k one, it comes with a picture and everything, the Chaos gods ARE the same ones, as stated the fluff is IDENTICAL, you claim that GW has stated they are seperate universes, and have provided only conjecture and hearsay, while I have give hard evidence and references, these same references are GW produced Codex's and Army books, as well as black library productions, all of this fluff is post "retcon".

My point still stands.
Linked through the warp, seperate universes

And yet, the warp is not the same in both Universes. They are not connected. GW, once more, has retconned any connection the two had. Meaning your 'chainsword' is not evidence.
It is not conjecture or hearsay. It is fact. The universes are entirely separate.

and once again you have no proof, i do.

If GW publishes facts that link the universes through the codex's and army books, as well as black library, and some Rep says they are not linked, well, I know GW reps get it wrong somtimes, so I'd chalk it up to error.

Now if it was in a white dwarf, that came out today, I'd accept it.

Keep in mind that some 40k elements have been present in Fantasy even since after the retcon-- see the Dark Shadows campaign reward items for a good example of this. All of these items obviously represented 40k equipment (a flamer, a power fist, a power sword, a conversion field, power armor, an auspex, a lightning claw, and a force staff) and were described as "potent weapons forged by a race that once ruled the stars."

Formosa wrote:and once again you have no proof, i do.

If GW publishes facts that link the universes through the codex's and army books, as well as black library, and some Rep says they are not linked, well, I know GW reps get it wrong somtimes, so I'd chalk it up to error.

Now if it was in a white dwarf, that came out today, I'd accept it.

"I'm right, and the one thing that would make me wrong doesn't count, because I say it doesn't. I'll only accept I'm wrong if they publish a statement that specifically invalidates my argument, in the next issue of White Dwarf."

Fantastic argument, mate.

He's saying that the White Dwarf you are speaking of is an older outdated issue and that most of his sources are more recent than that and as GW has pretty much said new sources trump old ones.

You people can all agree to disagree however and choose to interpret the setting as you see fit as at least one BL author has said thats how the setting pretty much works.

Get over yourselves.

BrotherStynier wrote:He's saying that the White Dwarf you are speaking of is an older outdated issue and that most of his sources are more recent than that and as GW has pretty much said new sources trump old ones.

You people can all agree to disagree however and choose to interpret the setting as you see fit as at least one BL author has said thats how the setting pretty much works.

Get over yourselves.

yep, that is pretty much what i'm saying, not "I'm right, and the one thing that would make me wrong doesn't count, because I say it doesn't. I'll only accept I'm wrong if they publish a statement that specifically invalidates my argument, in the next issue of White Dwarf", which ironically is what Nerivant seems to be doing,

The point is army books and codex's as well as black library fluff that has come out in the last 1-5 years, this "policy" must be older as I cant find it in my stack of WD's, and if it is older, then its been invalidated by more recent fluff, conbined with, that the GW rep has most probably made a mistake.

I cant see GW announcing that the 2 settings are completely seperate, and then publishing fluff that directly contradicts itself.
Also didn't you say that it was retconned back in 2nd?

I wouldnt trust an employee with anything. How can you be sure he isnt mistaken or bulling, its happened before with redshirts and even managers and it will happen again

Your evidence seems to just be 'no, your wrong, GW says so.' If though it is just a grunt that told you


There is evidence in the fluff (eg that campaign in albion awhile ago had powerfists wtf) that their is a connection, before the recent books on Sigmars life, it was generally believed he was one of the missing primarchs.

The warp is the same, the gods are the same, the ancient fluff is the same (old ones created the world, guided the then young races) the daemons are the same.

It could be a lack of imagination on the part of GW but I doubt it

I AGREE WITH FORMOSA

GW themselves have said that the two worlds are no longer connected. Come up with theories if you want, but you're wrong, very wrong. But, there's no real point in arguing as I cannot find the source for this in writing. I had thought before now that it was simply common knowledge that they were officially unconnected as this is the first time I've seen people try and say otherwise, but apparently I was wrong about that.

There is many similarities between Fantasy and 40k, but to many differences, IMO. The biggest one being Slaanesh and his relationship with the Elves. One, Slaanesh exists, so it is after the Fall. Which means Slaanesh would be all over the Elves; they don't have Soul Stones. That leads be to believe the Elves of Fantasy are not the Eldar of 40k. Also Dwarfs, Ogres and Humans are all seperate races. Dwarfs and Ogres predating Humans in Fantasy by thousands of years. In 40k Dwarfs (Squats) and Ogres (Ogryns) are mutated Humans. So thet are not the same. And lets not forget about the Orcs (Orks). They are similiar as well, but there are to many differences to say they are the same. Goblins (Gretchin), in Fantasy are two completely different races coexisting, in 40k they are the just different subraces of the same race. The other real big difference is the Old Ones themselves, in Fantasy Chaos destroys them; in 40k it's the C'tans, Chaos had nothing to do with it. IMO, there is just to many differences for them to be the same.

ToBeWilly wrote:There is many similarities between Fantasy and 40k, but to many differences, IMO. The biggest one being Slaanesh and his relationship with the Elves. One, Slaanesh exists, so it is after the Fall. Which means Slaanesh would be all over the Elves; they don't have Soul Stones. That leads be to believe the Elves of Fantasy are not the Eldar of 40k. Also Dwarfs, Ogres and Humans are all seperate races. Dwarfs and Ogres predating Humans in Fantasy by thousands of years. In 40k Dwarfs (Squats) and Ogres (Ogryns) are mutated Humans. So thet are not the same. And lets not forget about the Orcs (Orks). They are similiar as well, but there are to many differences to say they are the same. Goblins (Gretchin), in Fantasy are two completely different races coexisting, in 40k they are the just different subraces of the same race. The other real big difference is the Old Ones themselves, in Fantasy Chaos destroys them; in 40k it's the C'tans, Chaos had nothing to do with it. IMO, there is just to many differences for them to be the same.

Ok I see what you mean here, but i think you have the wrong end of the stick.
were not saying its the same races that inhabit both settings, were saying both settings, are completely stand alone "realities", but connected through the warp, as to the the old ones, it was chaos in the warp that killed them (note:Not Chaos) releasing the enslavers, the C'tan weakened them.
In fantasy it was a "geat castastrophie" that shattered the polar gates (consistent with webway portals, and consistent with 40k fluff on what happens if deamons break into it. Ref: HH Colected visions) is also consistent with what happens to the old ones.
So its not just similar, its the same.

That's your opinion of it, your theory. The official stance is that they are completely separate.
I guess it's just easier to have them as different worlds rather than having to explain a lot of the obvious similarities. I even wrote my own connection between them, with The High Elves being Exodites and Sigmar being a Primarch, until I learned from others that GW has retconned them being in the same universe.

He's not saying they are the same universe, he is saying they are connected by the Warp which is in a sense its own universe as well.

Warhammer 40k Universe

The Warp

Warhammer Fantasy Universe

Each its own thing, since the Warp isn't in the Warhammer 40k universe per-say because it is its own dimension which happens to mirrior that one.

He is also saying that the White Dwarf where they say there is no connection what so ever is outdated being 10-15 years old or more since new stuff has been put into Army Books and BL content even GW events.

The older White Dwarf is simply invalidated, similar to how Old Codex Fluff is often invalidated when new ones come out.

Yeah, they were connected through the Warp, until GW officially retconned their connection, and maintain this stance. Care to give examples of this apparent connection, as in, conclusive proof, that are younger than after 2nd ed?

we have been, you have just been ignoring them, but ok i will recap.

All the liber chaotica books
The albion campaign
Codex deamons
Deamon army book
Codex necrons
warriors of chaos army book

Tzeench liber chaotica.
Magnus the red, spots the archivist that the sprit (cant rember his name) is taking for a stroll through the warp.

when a deamon primarch see's a fantasy character... well its a open and shut case, the warp is the connection

Liber Chaotica? Heh, no, as both fantasy and 40k have separate information that does not link together.
Albion Campaign? Don't see the connection at all, you'll have to explain.
Codex Daemons and Daemons of Chaos army books are not a connection in themselves as the characters are different in both.
Codex NECRONS? Explain.
Warriors of Chaos? Which edition was this? First? Before 2nd ed?
Spots the archivist? Who is this guy?

Currently, the connections are as vague as my references apparently are.

iproxtaco wrote:Liber Chaotica? Heh, no, as both fantasy and 40k have separate information that does not link together.
Albion Campaign? Don't see the connection at all, you'll have to explain.
Codex Daemons and Daemons of Chaos army books are not a connection in themselves as the characters are different in both.
Codex NECRONS? Explain.
Warriors of Chaos? Which edition was this? First? Before 2nd ed?
Spots the archivist? Who is this guy?

Currently, the connections are as vague as my references apparently are.

dude have you even read liber chaotica?
Abion: alot of the magic weapons were from 40k, a power weapon, power fist and conversion field.
A dark emmisary even uses a power fist in one of the WD stories.
Codex deamon have fluff relevent to the 40k universe and vice versa, however the gods and locations in the warp are identical, as well
as the named characters in both.
Codex necrons: The war in heaven though not directly referenced in fantasy, is aluded to in the fantasy rulebook, the polar gates falling directyly corelates
to the rupture of the webway by deamons in 40k.
Warriors of chaos: The rending blade matches the description of the Chainsword from liber chaotica, as i have said, the 40k Chainsword is IDENTICAL to the 40k one
The Archivist: the liber chaotica books are written from his perspective

I would encourage you to read these references and then come back and continue this discussion

Formosa wrote:
Abion: alot of the magic weapons were from 40k, a power weapon, power fist and conversion field.

Wait, it specifically states that weapons few through the Warp and ended up the Fantasy universe?

It really is a shame they're not canon in any connection. The Liber Chaotica directly references a handful of 40k things even with a handful of CSM pictures dotted about. Prime example Magnus, Primarch of the Thousand Sons, is depicted briefly as the champion of Tzeentch.

Nerivant wrote:

Formosa wrote:
Abion: alot of the magic weapons were from 40k, a power weapon, power fist and conversion field.

Wait, it specifically states that weapons few through the Warp and ended up the Fantasy universe?

it gives descriptions of NON-magical technological devices, these match 40k items

"It really is a shame they're not canon in any connection. The Liber Chaotica directly references a handful of 40kthings even with a handful of CSMpictures dotted about. Prime example Magnus, Primarch of the Thousand Sons, is depicted briefly as the champion of Tzeentch."

why would a fantasy character know who magnus the red was, we know from HIS description.
All black library fiction is canon, even the stuff that contradicts itself, ref horus heresy
liber chaotica is canon

Formosa wrote:
it gives descriptions of NON-magical technological devices, these match 40k items

Aaaaaand?

and what? if you read the space marine codex and it describes a Chainsword, shows you picture and gives a brief description.. are you telling me its not a Chainsword?

Formosa wrote:and what? if you read the space marine codex and it describes a Chainsword, shows you picture and gives a brief description.. are you telling me its not a Chainsword?

No, because the codex says it's a chainsword.

Does what you're referring to specifically mention a chainsword, or something like a "sword that growls and snarls?"

liber chaotica Specifically names it as a chainsword, the picture is a mutated looking chainsword, and its description matches the rending blade from warriors of chaos (army book). call a spade a spade

look i'm going to have to say, go find these books/white dwarfs, then read them, as it seems that everyone is arguing with no knowledge of them, i thought people just ignored the facts, but it just seems people genuinely dont know.

tomorrow I will get out my liber chaotica books (cept tzeench, cant find it) and post some quotes, i will then try to find each white dwarf from the albion campaign and finally quotes from the other sources, except the deamons books, its spelled out so clearly in them that im genuinely suprised it needs any more explanation.

Formosa wrote:post some quotes,

Please do. "I read it, and you guys need to track down these books, because I can't actually prove I'm right" is not a valid argument. I'm looking forward to what you find.

Formosa wrote:liber chaotica Specifically names it as a chainsword, the picture is a mutated looking chainsword, and its description matches the rending blade from warriors of chaos (army book). call a spade a spade

look i'm going to have to say, go find these books/white dwarfs, then read them, as it seems that everyone is arguing with no knowledge of them, i thought people just ignored the facts, but it just seems people genuinely dont know.

tomorrow I will get out my liber chaotica books (cept tzeench, cant find it) and post some quotes, i will then try to find each white dwarf from the albion campaign and finally quotes from the other sources, except the deamons books, its spelled out so clearly in them that im genuinely suprised it needs any more explanation.

Dude, you're really grasping at straws here.
They are not linked anymore. Period. You're being selective in your interpretation. Thematic similarities do not mean they are linked.

I really like the idea of them being linked, not like WHFB is a planet in 40K but instead 2 universes connected by a 3rd universe(the warp).

But, if the official word is that they are not linked any more, then alas. It is also possible that they cut the connection so they could retcon it into something really cool in the future. They have just been too busy writing the game to be able to play around in the fluff.

-cgmckenzie

From reading through the thread I think there are two pretty distinct interpretations of what we mean by "connected".

First is are they connected via fluff? Do they contain the same objects? The same Gods? Similar chronology? Do the events of one universe seem to affect the events of the other? If this is what we're looking for to consider the two universes connected, then clearly the universes are. The similarities far outweigh differences.

The other interpretation: GW said no they are not (somewhere in some book or some article...the posters supporting this argument have not been quite as specific..sorry if it makes you all look a little bad). Honestly, this interpretation is hard to argue against. So if we say that no they are not connected because GW said so (discounting fluff similarities and the like ) then no, they are not connected.

I was leaning towards the interpretation that they were not connected, but those who argued for this have failed to really come up with a coherent argument besides: GW said so, feth off. As such I find myself leaning towards the other interpretation. The best argument made for them being separated was by ToBeWilly. Can anyone organise an argument around his points? I'd love to hear them.

Also it seems as though the people supporting the notion that the universes are separate (again, with the exception of ToBeWilly) seem to be trying to poke holes in Formosa's theory more than they are trying to make mature arguments for their own...

Just observations. I'd love to see more constructive debate! Interesting topic.

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, they were connected through the Warp, until GW officially retconned their connection, and maintain this stance. Care to give examples of this apparent connection, as in, conclusive proof, that are younger than after 2nd ed?

I wanna see where, as in which publication or GW website blog spot they say specifically they Warp is different in both universes. The WHFB Planet no longer being a world in the Warhammer 40k universe is not the same thing as the Warp being different for both. Everything I have heard points to the Warp being the same, this coming from GW people I have spoken to and owning the current Warriors of Chaos Army book where they talk about the Rending Sword, the description of which seems like a superstitious person from an age like WHFB describing a Chainsword with Magic.

Until then you can believe all you want that they arent connected in anyway possible even through the Warp. And I will continue to believe that they are separate universes connected through the warp, where sometimes things slip through, and you know what?

Neither of us will be wrong, at least unless you believe that having your own beliefs about a constantly shifting cannon where the authors say you can believe what you want is wrong. In which case you're just being an ass.

At one point, WH and 40k WERE linked. That is indisputable. Thats ALSO part of the reason we see so many thematic similarities (Chaos, the warp, etc). Also, these similarities help provide a framework in which to develop the setting and storylines. At some point, as the franchises matured, they drifted further and further apart. GW decided, in a rare fit of genius, to declare that the WH universe and the 40k universe are entirely separate. Aside from the aforementioned plot similarities, THERE IS NO CONNECTION.
Really, there is no reason for 40k and fantasy to be linked other than through Bad Fluff Fanwank.

ToBeWilly wrote:There is many similarities between Fantasy and 40k, but to many differences, IMO. The biggest one being Slaanesh and his relationship with the Elves. One, Slaanesh exists, so it is after the Fall. Which means Slaanesh would be all over the Elves; they don't have Soul Stones. That leads be to believe the Elves of Fantasy are not the Eldar of 40k. Also Dwarfs, Ogres and Humans are all seperate races. Dwarfs and Ogres predating Humans in Fantasy by thousands of years. In 40k Dwarfs (Squats) and Ogres (Ogryns) are mutated Humans. So thet are not the same. And lets not forget about the Orcs (Orks). They are similiar as well, but there are to many differences to say they are the same. Goblins (Gretchin), in Fantasy are two completely different races coexisting, in 40k they are the just different subraces of the same race. The other real big difference is the Old Ones themselves, in Fantasy Chaos destroys them; in 40k it's the C'tans, Chaos had nothing to do with it. IMO, there is just to many differences for them to be the same.

It is my understanding of the Setting that in Warhammer Fantasy the Old Ones weren't killed off as a race they simply abandoned the planet due to the fact that Chaos had come threw the Northern Gate, which then exploded, and those left on the world died. Also I believe the Lizardmen Army book states that they aren't sure if they all died out or just left. In Warhammer 40k the Old Ones are killed off as a result of their using the newer races in a war against the C'tan which led to creatures in the warp becoming more hostile and the Enslavers came and wiped out everything.


The race thing points towards them being separate universes which I agree with, I how ever think that the Warp connects both universes, not a complete connection, more like a very loose one where every once in a while something, like a chainsword or the items from the Albion Campaign will slip through.


@DEUS VULT

You haven't sold me on there being absolutely no connection when they obviously have intended for certain items in RECENT Armybooks to make you think they came from the WH40k Universe and the fact that one of them is a GIFT FROM THE CHAOS GODS and happens to be made to sound like it is a Chainsword seems to suggest that the Warp is a connection.

You still have yet to show anywhere that they continue to state there is no connection. All I see in fact is a couple of posters who are acting like they are children with their fingers stuffed in their ears going "NO NO NO I CANT HEAR YOU YOU ARE WRONG."

We, I at least, am not saying they are completely connected, only slightly and through the warp.

A sword could "growl" because its a chainsword, or it could growl because its a predatory demon and hungry for blood.
It has "teeth" because its a chainsword, or it has teeth, because predators have teeth, and jagged blades = OMG brutal

Author's intent is irrelevant when studying literature and, by extension, fluff. It is how english classes can talk about deep symbolism and such when the author just thought it sounded good or wrote very little. Hemmingway is a prime example of extrapolating insane amounts from what is given. Whether or not he actually wrote the stories as deep as he did doesn't matter, the only part that matters is what actually comes out in the literature/fluff.

So, unless they specify in the stories some clear way that they are not connected, then it is open for interpretation.

And yes, I did go back into my high school english notes just for this post. Surprised I still had those, really. I need to clean up...

-cgmckenzie

Really, why on earth would either realm have ANYTHING to do with the other? WHY?

Same reason people get all giddy when they see Captain America referenced in Iron Man 2: it's cool and fun to think that they might interact.

If they are connected, it is an extremely small amount of influence coming and going to either so it doesn't really matter. If they are not, we lose that little bit of fun from the fluff but nothing really changes. Do you want to be the one responsible for killing fun, Deus Vult? Is that what you want!?

-cgmckenzie

Maybe you should ask GW about that, be sure to bring up the Lightning Claws and Power Swords awarded in the Albion Campaign as items for your heroes.

In the mean time, I'll go through the Army books I have to see if they actually have any evidence supporting them not having the same Warp.

Really it seems like you don't even have an argument other than "One time GW said they dont have any connections. I totally heard that on the internet(or from a GW Staff member).

cgmckenzie wrote:Same reason people get all giddy when they see Captain America referenced in Iron Man 2: it's cool and fun to think that they might interact.

If they are connected, it is an extremely small amount of influence coming and going to either so it doesn't really matter. If they are not, we lose that little bit of fun from the fluff but nothing really changes. Do you want to be the one responsible for killing fun, Deus Vult? Is that what you want!?

-cgmckenzie

ZERE SHALL BE NO FUN! NEIN!!! NEIN!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrotherStynier wrote:Maybe you should ask GW about that, be sure to bring up the Lightning Claws and Power Swords awarded in the Albion Campaign as items for your heroes.

In the mean time, I'll go through the Army books I have to see if they actually have any evidence supporting them not having the same Warp.

Really it seems like you don't even have an argument other than "One time GW said they dont have any connections. I totally heard that on the internet(or from a GW Staff member).

eh, I know I read it somewhere legit. I do recognize that until i find said quote my ass is hanging in the breeze. Regardless, Its still a slowed idea.
Besides, WHY would they be connected. What possible purpose would it serve? Its not interesting or creative, its just lazy daydreaming.

Ashryu wrote:Really interesting concept, wish they had expanded it instead of just letting it go. Though I have often wondered how normal men with melee weapons are able to fight the same daemons that space marines with technologically advanced weapons fight. Also would be funny if the imperium pulled exterminatus on the fantasy world.

Agree with exterminatus on fantasy world 110%
Ive heard way to many rumors that one of the reasons 40k is so expensive is to pay for the failings of fantasy and lord of the rings.

NIEN!! lol

Liber Chaotica Khorne.
Chainsword
I saw this weapon first in the keeping of Red hand Kolchis but have since seen swords of a similar type, in the
possession of at least 3 other warriors and read descriptions of more (such as the snarling hand of Fsak koomriver)
Kolchis a lone Khonate champion aquired it deep in the eastern skull lands whist carving through,
a tribe of dark green orcs. IT APPEARS AS A NORMAL SWORD except, instead of a razor edge,
A LINE OF JAGGED TEETH RUN DOWN THE SIDE. At the wielders command, THE TEETH RACE DOWN THE BLADE,
ripping apart armour and flesh as easily as parchment. THE BEAST HILT HOWLS WHILE IT DOES AND WHINES WHEN LEFT UNSATED.
Unsurprisingly, i have found this type of ARCANE TECHNOLOGY, solely in the of khorate champions

Stick you fingures in your ears and "la la" that!

DEUS VULT wrote:
Really, there is no reason for 40k and fantasy to be linked other than through Bad Fluff Fanwank.

Liber Chaotica is not bad fanwank.

The universes aren't one and the same.

The connection, if any, is the warp. The guy in Liber Chaotica uses magicks to peer into the Realm of Chaos, not only does he learn stuff from his land but also characters and events from 40k, like the Emperors Children, the Black Crusades Magnus. It's like looking through a telescope.

I thought that it used to be that the Warhammer world was one lost in a warp storm or something? So you had the Old space faring Slann, tech weapons and stuff like that. But yeah, now they are entirely different universes but the only connection possibly is the warp.

Formosa wrote:NIEN!! lol

Liber Chaotica Khorne.
Chainsword
I saw this weapon first in the keeping of Red hand Kolchis but have since seen swords of a similar type, in the
possession of at least 3 other warriors and read descriptions of more (such as the snarling hand of Fsak koomriver)
Kolchis a lone Khonate champion aquired it deep in the eastern skull lands whist carving through,
a tribe of dark green orcs. IT APPEARS AS A NORMAL SWORD except, instead of a razor edge,
A LINE OF JAGGED TEETH RUN DOWN THE SIDE. At the wielders command, THE TEETH RACE DOWN THE BLADE,
ripping apart armour and flesh as easily as parchment. THE BEAST HILT HOWLS WHILE IT DOES AND WHINES WHEN LEFT UNSATED.
Unsurprisingly, i have found this type of ARCANE TECHNOLOGY, solely in the of khorate champions

Stick you fingures in your ears and "la la" that!

Okay, except that a chainsword doesn't look like a normal sword.

I could see the argument that the chainsword looks like a normal sword when you really only have a chance to study it while it is hacking through your friends.

Other than that, it looks like a sword like chainsaw.

-cgmckenzie

Do any of you people have a source which states a connection? Just now it's simply objects and characters which are similar due to individual interpretation, but no where does it state that they are the same, ergo. you can't prove your ridiculous theories.

cgmckenzie wrote:I could see the argument that the chainsword looks like a normal sword when you really only have a chance to study it while it is hacking through your friends.

Other than that, it looks like a sword like chainsaw.

-cgmckenzie

But it's clearly some sort of exotic daemon weapon.

Not a chainsaw that flew in through another dimension.

I think if both setting were connected through the Warp, Fantasy would of been completely destroyed by Chaos. Both setting have the same characters from Codex: Deamons and Army Book: Deamons. If, lets say Skulltaker (thats the only Deamons character I can think of off the top of my head), can be in both places and knows they both exist, what is stopping him from bringing a Soul Grinder or a Defiler or Obliterators? Fantasy IMHO could not exist with those possibilities. Therefore they most be seperate.

To somebody who has never seen a chainsaw or anything like it at all, it would be a safe bet to assume it was demonic. How they chronicle it will reflect how they see the world and where this fits into it, drawing connections to things they have seen before and describing it the best they can.

And if the daemons fought in 40k-verse are the same as the ones fighting in WHFB, weapons and such are bound to trickle through from one verse to another. It isn't like they brought a crate of chainswords and started giving them out to dwarves.

-cgmckenzie

ToBeWilly wrote:I think if both setting were connected through the Warp, Fantasy would of been completely destroyed by Chaos. Both setting have the same characters from Codex: Deamons and Army Book: Deamons. If, lets say Skulltaker (thats the only Deamons character I can think of off the top of my head), can be in both places and knows they both exist, what is stopping him from bringing a Soul Grinder or a Defiler or Obliterators? Fantasy IMHO could not exist with those possibilities. Therefore they most be seperate.

Good point. Soul Grinder, stated as not available in the fantasy setting for obvious reasons.

Srsly, folks.

Just.... srsly.

I don't know what picture that was, as it doesn't load, but the URL gave me a clue. Was that an attempt to be witty? Remove yourself, from life preferably, from this discussion and dakka at the least, if indeed it is the picture I think it is.

U mad bro?

You've spent 3 pages now hashing over the same argument on a topic that, ultimately, doesn't matter at all within the context of the game.

Even when they were, officially, in the same galaxy, the Warhammer Fantasy world was locked away in an unending warp-storm that ensured it was impossible for it to be found by the Imperium, or any other faction in the Warhammer 40K game.

Since those days, GW has backed off on that stance, and established them as separate games/storylines. If someone still wants to have them in the same galaxy, or linked to each other via the Warp... it doesn't change anything, and it doesn't matter.

What... is someone going to play their Halfling Blood Bowl team against a pack of Black Templar Terminators with Dreadnought support? Are the Griffon Knights of Brettonia going to do battle with a Deathwatch Kill-Team? Are the Wood Elves going to wage war against a company of Grey Knights?

Of course not.

It simply... doesn't matter. Some people might want to throw in some fun fluff from 40k in a Fantasy setting, or have some Fantasy shout-outs in a 40k game... but in neither case does this matter within the hobby of Warhammer gaming.

I am actually, because despite this argument not having an effect on the game universe, neither does anything we discuss on this forum, GW decides all of it, we interpret and discuss. We can argue if we want to, I dislike people who come along and make some witty remark and try to sweep the argument away by saying "it just doesn't matter", like they're some how superior and are possessed of a higher understanding because they raised themselves above the argument, then make an ultimately irrelevant post. Move along, this argument has about as much affect on you as it does on the game world, none apparently.

wow guys.. we need some chill pills in here.

The soul grinder doesn't appear in fantasy for the same reason Chaos hasn't pwned 40k, they dont want to.

Chainsword doesn't look like a sword??? mad.

The Chainsword case is air tight, im suprised there are still arguments on it, it has a picture, it has fluff that could easily be put into 40k and no one would bat an eyelid.. and yet, ignored.

I'm giving reference after reference, and all im getting is "no!! cause!!", I have even asked you guys to read the references, and i still get "no! cause!!", one of you has got to give me a better argument than some outdated reference by some GW rep.

We don't need to, it's common knowledge. You also haven't actually given any evidence, I've already stated why. That's your explanation for Soulgrinders? Ha, that's funny, now whose just saying "no! cause!!".

iproxtaco wrote:You also haven't actually given any evidence,

Liber Chaotica would disagree

I think you're missing the point, or at least it seems that way.

We're not saying that the fantasy universe and the 40k universe are the same. But the description of the events and characters in Liber Chaotica makes a connection between the two.

How else would you explain a character from the Fantasy Realm knowing of the First Armageddon war, the Black Crusades, the fall of the Eldar and Magnus the Red amongst other 40K related things?

The fact of the matter is they aren't the same, anymore at least.

That is, frankly, a massive hole in GW policy that they aren't the same. Whilst I've seen in may, many places, on this website and others, and been told by an employee that they are in no way connected according to GW "official policy", it does seem that GW has actually made Liber Chaotica point out a very obvious connection between the two universes. I mean, it's difficult to control every single piece of fluff so it fits with everything else, this particular goal should be easy. Perhaps they are in completely different realities, with the Warp being some multi-layer convoluted thing that connects them and others, and this archivist guy just saw through the layers some how.

iproxtaco wrote:Perhaps they are in completely different realities, with the Warp being some multi-layer convoluted thing that connects them and others, and this archivist guy just saw through the layers some how.

Which is what we have been saying, or I have at least

Perhaps my use of the word 'universe' was incorrect. I was using it in the same reference as you would the Marvel universe

That is a much better way to look at it, from my own perspective as well.

In the warhammer fantasy roleplay 2nd edition you can get a chainsword! It was puplished by black industries!
Sigmars twintailed comet is surely a spaceship and he suddenly disapear! Come on! Its the same universe! If GW whants to end that fact they should make a whole new setting for one of the games.

Lasher wrote:In the warhammer fantasy roleplay 2nd edition you can get a chainsword! It was puplished by black industries!
Sigmars twintailed comet is surely a spaceship and he suddenly disapear! Come on! Its the same universe! If GW whants to end that fact they should make a whole new setting for one of the games.

That's been brought up.
Your own speculation.
And they don't "want to", they have as of around 2nd edition.

Warhammer fantasy roleplay 2nd ediition was made a long time after the WB and W40k 2nd editions where made and it was official! Did they forget that they made a new game?
I know that the Sigmar/Primach story is not official but sure is hinted that he was a Primach!
Or and here is another blatant fact: its called WARHAMMER 40000!

Sure was hinted he was a Primarch. Not any more.
Right, that's not a connection at all.

I know that the last point was silly but what are your answer to the first one I made?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And where dos it say he is not a Primach (I know it dos not say that he is)?

Citation on the "Chainsword".
Where does it say that he IS? For a LONG time now, the worlds have been separated, the possibility that Sigmar was a Primarch is gone.

iproxtaco wrote:Citation on the "Chainsword".
Where does it say that he IS? For a LONG time now, the worlds have been separated, the possibility that Sigmar was a Primarch is gone.

Black library actually released books about Sigmars life from birth too death, he aint no primarch

But honestly, do other peoples opinions on the hobby really bother you that much?

Until you make reference (A direct quote) to GW actually saying they are not connected at all, I will still think they do, I might be wrong, but whatever. Its my hobby, and who are you too tell me I am wrong?

A random internet person with a difference of opinion, who are you to say that I can't criticize? Double Standards.

Still no source eh?
I can understand though, someone you dont know is wrong on the internet, and you have to show them the light, right?

Already told you that I can't but meh, no one can provide source which states the opposite, just obscure references in old sources that they draw their own conclusion from. Soulgrinders though, go and explain that.

Well yeah, if I see someone is wrong, I'll argue with them. It's an open forum, neither you nor I make the rules. If they "see the light" as you put it, then great, my objective is achieved.

iproxtaco wrote:Already told you that I can't but meh, no one can provide source which states the opposite, just obscure references in old sources that they draw their own conclusion from. Soulgrinders though, go and explain that.

Well yeah, if I see someone is wrong, I'll argue with them. It's an open forum, neither you nor I make the rules. If they "see the light" as you put it, then great, my objective is achieved.

Yeah, they have been referenced before in canon books, the Albion Campaign and Daemons names

They are not obscure or old sources. The evidence presented before you outweighs the glaring lack of evidence you have. 'Common Knowledge' is all you can lean on

You try and dispute the evidence presented as nothing\old\obscure, maybe your the one who is wrong?

I dont know anything about soul grinders, so I wont comment on them

A connection has not been cited from those books. Again, vague references in old books that are relevant to the opposition due to individual interpretation, but no actual reference states that the fantasy realm and the 40k realm are the same. It's the same on the other side, Soulgrinders, your lack of knowledge does not dismiss them. They can be used in 40k, and not in fantasy. The references are obscure because they don't point at a connection, old, well, because they are, and I never said they were "nothing", just not proof.

Maybe your the one who is wrong?

Maybe, but maybe your the one who is wrong...wait didnt I just say that?

I agree that no direct connection has been referenced, but no reference has been made to contradict it.

So I suppose we can agree to disagree. Its one of those things that is up to the fans until GW decides to do something

You are right in the fact that it is not stated that these two games are in the same universe but nor can you say the opposite (if you can please make a refrence) but what about that chainsword in the tome of corruption (2006)page 184? You stall the question!

Lasher wrote:You are right in the fact that it is not stated that these two games are in the same universe but nor can you say the opposite (if you can please make a refrence) but what about that chainsword in the tome of corruption (2006)page 184? You stall the question!

Quote it, then we'll see.
Soulgrinders. They can be used in 40k but not in fantasy. Explain.

iproxtaco wrote:

Lasher wrote:You are right in the fact that it is not stated that these two games are in the same universe but nor can you say the opposite (if you can please make a refrence) but what about that chainsword in the tome of corruption (2006)page 184? You stall the question!

Quote it, then we'll see.
Soulgrinders. They can be used in 40k but not in fantasy. Explain.

Man seriously, do you really see this thread getting anywhere beyond "Im right your wrong" "No your wrong Im right"

Until GW clears it up, then it is all speculation

Then I'll continue to speculate until the thread stops, I lose interest, or is locked.

iproxtaco wrote:Then I'll continue to speculate until the thread stops, I lose interest, or is locked.

So you admit your speculating? So your admitting you have no firm evidence?........interesting

Soulgrinders(daemons, right?) can be used in 40k but not fantasy because(assuming a link through the warp in this) of any number of possible reasons.

They can't get through to WHFB because of some warp rules regarding exit #WHFB.

The don't want to.

The warp is absolutely massive and the way into the WHFB doesn't have any of them near it. Same could be said for CSM and such.

The daemon leadership(chaos gods?) don't see them as needed in the WHFB universe or see the whole thing as a game and they don't want to use this card from their hand yet(assuming the game is go fish or gin).

Their bus got lost in the warp and they ended up in the office from 'Bettlejuice'.

The nature of the warp is very random and chaotic, so anything could have happened to prevent them from having access to WHFB. The list goes on and on. I personally like the last one myself.

-cgmckenzie

BTW, I have no firm evidence and am purely speculating. I have a feeling he knows a little more about the fluff than I do(I know where Ultramar is! Kinda). I just think it would be really fun for there to be some connection, even if it has no impact on the fluff or gameplay. See Marvel Movie Intercontinuity for coolness factor.

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Then I'll continue to speculate until the thread stops, I lose interest, or is locked.

So you admit your speculating? So your admitting you have no firm evidence?........interesting

I've never said I had that. In fact, I've stated the opposite more than once now. Do you?

iproxtaco wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Then I'll continue to speculate until the thread stops, I lose interest, or is locked.

So you admit your speculating? So your admitting you have no firm evidence?........interesting

I've never said I had that. In fact, I've stated the opposite more than once now. Do you?

Do I what? I dont get your post

even though I know that it is a different Universe, I like to think that it is the same but 40k is much further in the future because the armies are simililar and it also has the four chaos gods
Khorne
Nurgle
Slaanesh
Tzeentch

I mean knights could be space marines, elves could be Eldar, and greenskins could be Orks

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Then I'll continue to speculate until the thread stops, I lose interest, or is locked.

So you admit your speculating? So your admitting you have no firm evidence?........interesting

I've never said I had that. In fact, I've stated the opposite more than once now. Do you?

Do I what? I dont get your post

Have any hard evidence, I should have worded my response better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgmckenzie wrote:Soulgrinders(daemons, right?) can be used in 40k but not fantasy because(assuming a link through the warp in this) of any number of possible reasons.

They can't get through to WHFB because of some warp rules regarding exit #WHFB.

The don't want to.

The warp is absolutely massive and the way into the WHFB doesn't have any of them near it. Same could be said for CSM and such.

The daemon leadership(chaos gods?) don't see them as needed in the WHFB universe or see the whole thing as a game and they don't want to use this card from their hand yet(assuming the game is go fish or gin).

Their bus got lost in the warp and they ended up in the office from 'Bettlejuice'.

The nature of the warp is very random and chaotic, so anything could have happened to prevent them from having access to WHFB. The list goes on and on. I personally like the last one myself.

-cgmckenzie

BTW, I have no firm evidence and am purely speculating. I have a feeling he knows a little more about the fluff than I do(I know where Ultramar is! Kinda). I just think it would be really fun for there to be some connection, even if it has no impact on the fluff or gameplay. See Marvel Movie Intercontinuity for coolness factor.

WD May 2008 (I think, the dates torn off the edge), simply states "for obvious reasons". I would take that as they are not availabe for fantasy becasue the universes are separate.

iproxtaco wrote:
WD May 2008 (I think, the dates torn off the edge), simply states "for obvious reasons". I would take that as they are not availabe for fantasy becasue the universes are separate.

Or more likely, because its a fething daemontank and would look as stupid as a leman russ in fantasy

So your saying you have no evidence?

What ever evidence thats been presented too you has already been posted

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
WD May 2008 (I think, the dates torn off the edge), simply states "for obvious reasons". I would take that as they are not availabe for fantasy becasue the universes are separate.

Or more likely, because its a fething daemontank and would look as stupid as a leman russ in fantasy

So your saying you have no evidence?

What ever evidence thats been presented too you has already been posted

Apparently the universes are connected though, are you saying there are suddenly rules to say certain things can't appear in the Fantasy setting?
Well, actually, I do. the Soulgrinder, the fact that no fantasy characters appear in 40k and vice versa, GW's official policy.
Yeah, and like the above, it does explicitly state that they are or aren't connected.

iproxtaco wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
WD May 2008 (I think, the dates torn off the edge), simply states "for obvious reasons". I would take that as they are not availabe for fantasy becasue the universes are separate.

Or more likely, because its a fething daemontank and would look as stupid as a leman russ in fantasy

So your saying you have no evidence?

What ever evidence thats been presented too you has already been posted

Apparently the universes are connected though, are you saying there are suddenly rules to say certain things can't appear in the Fantasy setting?
Well, actually, I do. the Soulgrinder, the fact that no fantasy characters appear in 40k and vice versa, GW's official policy.
Yeah, and like the above, it does explicitly state that they are or aren't connected.

how do you plan on fighting something with an armour value? It would break the game. Same reason I cant use my space marines in fantasy, it would break it

Every Daemon character appears in fantasy and 40k


Yeah, and like the above, it does explicitly state that they are or aren't connected.

This ^ makes no sense
Please re read your posts before submitting them, makes things easier

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
WD May 2008 (I think, the dates torn off the edge), simply states "for obvious reasons". I would take that as they are not availabe for fantasy becasue the universes are separate.

Or more likely, because its a fething daemontank and would look as stupid as a leman russ in fantasy

So your saying you have no evidence?

What ever evidence thats been presented too you has already been posted

Apparently the universes are connected though, are you saying there are suddenly rules to say certain things can't appear in the Fantasy setting?
Well, actually, I do. the Soulgrinder, the fact that no fantasy characters appear in 40k and vice versa, GW's official policy.
Yeah, and like the above, it does explicitly state that they are or aren't connected.

how do you plan on fighting something with an armour value? It would break the game. Same reason I cant use my space marines in fantasy, it would break it

Every Daemon character appears in fantasy and 40k


Yeah, and like the above, it does explicitly state that they are or aren't connected.

This ^ makes no sense
Please re read your posts before submitting them, makes things easier

Translate the rules, like they did for every other unit in the codex.

Basically, I meant the same thing as you, that no evidence either you or I provide explicitly states that their is or isn't a connection.

Great conversation though, worthless I might point out, as GW no longer connects the two.

I'm back!!

Soul grinder: All evidence points to the FACT that only small 40k tech items slip through the gaps in the 40k and the fantasy SETTINGS (diferent realities/universes/multiverse/Timelines... NOT THE SAME UNIVERSE) the soul grinder would be far too large a tech item (plus it would be grounded in 40k due to it being a possesed tank, deamonic, but not a deamon) deamons have been shown to pass through both.

The biggest proof that i have overlooked... Juggernoughts
made by Chaos dwarfs... and only by them, howd they get to 40k?

Chainsword: Ref: Liber chaotica, Book1 Khorne, under CHAINSWORD. the one with the picture of a CHAINSWORD on it.

capitals are not to shout, emphasis only

Formosa wrote:I'm back!!

Soul grinder: All evidence points to the FACT that only small 40k tech items slip through the gaps in the 40k and the fantasy SETTINGS (diferent realities/universes/multiverse/Timelines... NOT THE SAME UNIVERSE) the soul grinder would be far too large a tech item (plus it would be grounded in 40k due to it being a possesed tank, deamonic, but not a deamon) deamons have been shown to pass through both.

That's not an explanation at all. What's the importance of it being a tank? If a chainsword can appartently get through, what's stopping this? Are you now for some reason admitting they aren't in the same universe? And that any perceived connections is due to GW idiocy? Victory!

The biggest proof that i have overlooked... Juggernoughts
made by Chaos dwarfs... and only by them, howd they get to 40k?

Source for this utter BS? Juggernauts are Warp Spawned half machines, not Chaos Dwarf inventions.

Chainsword: Ref: Liber chaotica, Book1 Khorne, under CHAINSWORD. the one with the picture of a CHAINSWORD on it.

capitals are not to shout, emphasis only

Page number? I HIGHLY doubt it actually says it's a chainsword.

Page 47 Liber chaotica Khorne Ref: CHAINSWORD

Juggernoughts are built by Chaos dwarfs.. its part of there fluff, it built in Hashuts image.

That's not an explanation at all. What's the importance of it being a tank? If a chainsword can appartently get through, what's stopping this? Are you now for some reason admitting they aren't in the same universe? And that any perceived connections is due to GWidiocy? Victory!

Hardly, go re-read all my posts, never said it was same universe, infact i stated the oposite, and added that they are connected through the warp.
you see, the warp is all about ideas, emotions and potential, its easyier for the idea of a chainsword to bleed through the gaps, than it is for a Soulgrinder that is no longer a "true" deamon (its essence is trapped/part off the defiler),

However, the fundemental point is, you do not seem to know of the references we have been talking about, so please dont say something like this
"truePage number? I HIGHLY doubt it actually says it's a chainsword."
until you have actually bothered to look.
As I have said, go read the references I have given you, then come back, and continue the discussion with more coherent arguments than "nuh uh! cause"

Juggernauts are Daemons of Khorne. They are not built (at least, not by mortal hands), they're granted to Champions as a mount as a reward for service to the Blood God. Many are the would-be Champions who fail to master these gifts and are ground under its claws. Their blood, too, is welcome.

Unless they've changed their appearance (again), they're giant, dog-rhino... things... with more brazen armor than is probably strictly necessary and more spiked bits than one can safely shake a stick at.

Formosa wrote:Page 47 Liber chaotica Khorne Ref: CHAINSWORD

I'll go and check it out then.

Juggernoughts are built by Chaos dwarfs.. its part of there fluff, it built in Hashuts image.

Hah, maybe 20 years ago, not any more. What's your source though, I'm interested, as every peice of fluff, as scarce ad they are, on Juggernauts points at them being Khorne Warp spawn, that RESEMBLES their God. I'll check out the Daemons of Chaos Army book tomorrow, see if it gives anymore information on the matter.

iproxtaco wrote:That's not an explanation at all. What's the importance of it being a tank? If a chainsword can appartently get through, what's stopping this? Are you now for some reason admitting they aren't in the same universe? And that any perceived connections is due to GWidiocy? Victory!

Hardly, go re-read all my posts, never said it was same universe, infact i stated the oposite, and added that they are connected through the warp.
you see, the warp is all about ideas, emotions and potential, its easyier for the idea of a chainsword to bleed through the gaps, than it is for a Soulgrinder that is no longer a "true" deamon (its essence is trapped/part off the defiler),

I'm confused now. "diferent realities/universes/multiverse/Timelines... NOT THE SAME UNIVERSE", I never said that you said anything different, I was surprised by a sudden change in direction.

However, the fundemental point is, you do not seem to know of the references we have been talking about, so please dont say something like this
"Page number? I HIGHLY doubt it actually says it's a chainsword."
until you have actually bothered to look.
As I have said, go read the references I have given you, then come back, and continue the discussion with more coherent arguments than "nuh uh! cause"

I can't know them if I don't get an answer to my questions of "What's your source". It's not like I don't want to understand, but I can still DOUBT, that's not a certainty.

Liber Chaotica credits the creation of jugernoughts to the CD's, its page 70?


Iprox, what change in direction are you talking about? I have maintained to same point throughout, if your talking about the emphasis, then i felt it was needed for clarity, as people were dronning on about them being seperate universes, and in that we agreed, I maintained that they are connected through the warp.

I retract that, there are a few different people arguing with different points of view.

iproxtaco wrote:I retract that, there are a few different people arguing with different points of view.

no worries old bean, we've all done it lol

Ok, I think I finally have a good way to illustrate this as I see it(and if I understand, formosa sees it as well).

Venn Diagrams!

Three circles in a line, each one over lapping the one to it's right and/or left. The connections are very loose, and not horrifyingly reliable.

40K.....................Warp...................WHFB
l--------------l------l------------------l------l----------l
l..............l......l..................l......l..........l
l..............l......l..................l......l..........l
l--------------l------l------------------l------l----------l

Somethings getting into the warp from either can eventually get to the other, but it is incredibly rare and there are most likely crazy things happening in the warp that prevent certain things from getting through.

-cgmckenzie

ps-wow, that was actually really difficult to do. APPRECIATE IT OR RUE THIS DAY!

that diagram addles my little mind, but i know what your getting at, I agree!!

Well, it turns out GW did retcon it. Typical GW ruining my fun. Anyway, In 2nd ed (Fantasy realms of chaos I think) way back when it did explicitly say they were in the same universe, however since then there has been no mention of it at all. So I suppose thats retconning it.

But cgmckenzies fan bloody tastic diagram, it shows how they are connected through the warp, this shows how daemons, chainswords and probably all the crap from the travesty that was Albions campaign

Anyway, I enjoyed this thread

I would like to know when and where did GW retcon the connection. I understand the reason to seperate the two games but then why not call it rogue trader (or something similar)? Why call it Warhammer 40k? In the first edition of warhammer your Amazon warriors could have bolters!! In my version of the world they are connected - not because I am delusional but because they (GM) have connected it again and again. And whats the harm? Are they afraid that they will lose fantasy players? In the 40k fluff there are thousands of primitive planets - why not one that is Warhammer world! And then there is Sigmar - "born" the same day a twin tailed comet is seen in the sky. For me its not a ? if he is an primach but what number he is?

Lasher wrote:I would like to know when and where did GW retcon the connection. I understand the reason to seperate the two games but then why not call it rogue trader (or something similar)? Why call it Warhammer 40k? In the first edition of warhammer your Amazon warriors could have bolters!! In my version of the world they are connected - not because I am delusional but because they (GM) have connected it again and again. And whats the harm? Are they afraid that they will lose fantasy players? In the 40k fluff there are thousands of primitive planets - why not one that is Warhammer world! And then there is Sigmar - "born" the same day a twin tailed comet is seen in the sky. For me its not a ? if he is an primach but what number he is?

I dont know if they did directly retcon it, but it hasnt been mentioned since 2nd ed fantasy, its 8th ed now, so its been a long time. So I guess people presume its been retconned

Warhammer 40,000 is set 40,000 years in the future, well technically its 41,000 years, but whatever.

That was 1st edition, before 2nd editions last mention of it

Yeah its your hobby, and you can believe whatever you want, but they havent connected it since 2nd ed, refer to the diagram above, thats the only way they are connected.

Sigmar origins were shrouded in mystery, mainly because of 2nd ed, but black library published books chronicling his life, he was born to a mother and father normally

He is not a primarch, cool as it would be, but he isnt, besides he died at a ripe old age of 80 (around that anyway), doubt he was a god if he died that 'young'

Ok I'm new here but I know FOR A FACT that the current Necron codex states that old one for both worlds are the same ones. Another thing in it also says that you can have Necrons fight the lizardmen!!! Also they had an event where things are linked by the Warp in both world because things from both world can travel into the other. I like the zoo idea my self but I highly doubt it. I like to use some of 40K bitz in my fantasy armies saying that a group of the what ever bit I'm using got warped to the past and were slaughter by that group I'm using it in. One more thing WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE SKAVEN!!!

Karnage Wolf wrote:Ok I'm new here but I know FOR A FACT that the current Necron codex states that old one for both worlds are the same ones. Another thing in it also says that you can have Necrons fight the lizardmen!!! Also they had an event where things are linked by the Warp in both world because things from both world can travel into the other. I like the zoo idea my self but I highly doubt it. I like to use some of 40K bitz in my fantasy armies saying that a group of the what ever bit I'm using got warped to the past and were slaughter by that group I'm using it in. One more thing WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE SKAVEN!!!

Hey welcome to Dakka. Any chance fo a few quotes? Yeah the old ones are called the same in both, and slann are in fantasy in 40k, but they have been since hte dawn of time, its not like GW to contradict itself in fluff..................wait, what do you mean they do?

Karnage Wolf wrote:Ok I'm new here but I know FOR A FACT that the current Necron codex states that old one for both worlds are the same ones.

Sorry, but there is no such statement in the Necron codex. But going by what little 40K fluff there is for the Slann, while they are the servants of the Old Ones in WHFB, they were the Old Ones in 40K.

Also they had an event where things are linked by the Warp in both world because things from both world can travel into the other.

Unless you're thinking of some small store-run event, the closest I can think of was the WHFB Albion campaign, where it was possible for champions to wind up with 40K-sounding weapons 'from the sky'...

There have been small bits and pieces like that over the years, along with the bigger bits and pieces like the Chaos Gods... but they're just shared concepts, not a sign that the games are (these days) considered to be in the same setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lasher wrote:I would like to know when and where did GW retcon the connection.

There's never been any official statement of it... but then, the official 'connection' between them was never anything more than a single throwaway comment in one of the Rogue Trader era books.

It's been stated by studio staff on more than one occasion over the years though.

I understand the reason to seperate the two games but then why not call it rogue trader (or something similar)? Why call it Warhammer 40k?

Because it started out as Warhammer 40K, and changing the name of one of your two core games just because you retcon a piece of relatively insignificant background is unnecessary and confusing to your customers.

And whats the harm? Are they afraid that they will lose fantasy players?

It's not so much about harm, but simply about giving them the freedom to move the fluff of the two games in different directions.

yo insaniak.

Righto just to re-iterate, as some still seem to be missing the concept.

40k universe
The warp (40k)
The Warp (fantasy)
Fantasy universe

Both are linked through the warp, both are distinctly seperate realities/universes, Same Chaos gods and Deamons (Identical NOT similar)

Another obvious example is Slaanesh, created by Eldar, but in the fantasy universe

2ed WHF or 2ed WH40k


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE SKAVEN are still in 40K there called rat men and they live in the under hive of all hive worlds.

You guys are reading WWAAYY to much into this!
Its like saying Starship Troopers and 40k are in the same universe since they share terimators, tyranids, and humanity trying to defend itself.

Formosa, there is literally 0 connection to the warp in Fantasy. Nowhere is the Warp mentioned by any names, either the Warp, Immaterium, Sea of Souls etc. And in Fantasy, Daemons don't pop out of reality, they come from the Polar Gates to the north and south of the world.

Cryonicleech wrote:Formosa, there is literally 0 connection to the warp in Fantasy. Nowhere is the Warp mentioned by any names, either the Warp, Immaterium, Sea of Souls etc. And in Fantasy, Daemons don't pop out of reality, they come from the Polar Gates to the north and south of the world.

The names of the warp: ? its called the Warp in several Fantasy books, and if memory serves, even Deamons of Chaos
Deamons popping out of reality: ... Yes they do, quite often really, I'm suprised by this statement

Mymidia: That would be accurate if starship troopers had say.. the chaos gods (proven to be Identical) Deamons and what not.

And yet Another quote..
Warriors of Chaos: Page 7, Coming of Chaos. Try and tell me its not the same old ones.

They aren't the same Old Ones.

iproxtaco wrote:They aren't the same Old Ones.

that it lol.

anything to explain that point of view?
There is plenty of evidence to point to the fact they are one and the same, but i'm interested to know you think otherwise.

For the reasons I have stated through 5 flipping pages. They were connected, GW has moved away from this, to disconnect them.

iprox, we haven proven through numerous souces that this GW statement has either been in error or left behind.

To put it another way, for the sake of argument, if GW had stated this, why have they continued to publish fluff that connects them?

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:
THE SKAVEN are still in 40K there called rat men and they live in the under hive of all hive worlds.

No... just... no.

Formosa wrote:iprox, we haven proven through numerous souces that this GW statement has either been in error or left behind.

To put it another way, for the sake of argument, if GW had stated this, why have they continued to publish fluff that connects them?

Short answer, they haven't. You interpret it differently. I'm kinda done with this conversation, it kinda ended and then some joker came along and resurrected it. Think what you want, GW has moved away from the connection, anything else is just the vestiges of 1st ed.

Caledor has a dragons recollections of the world at the time of the Old Ones arrival

It has them arriving through a multi coloured tear in the sky (thatd be a warp transition then, see ALL 40k fluff regarding exit back to normal space) in their silver skyships. So, spaceships then.

There are definite links between the universes, especially with Amazons having freaking las pistols on their sprues...

iprox you have provided no sources for you opinions, you just keep going on about some statement some "guy" may have said.

I, and others, have given references, and yes some of them could be taken as conjecture, however, alot of it is as obvious as taking a brick to the face, namely
Slaanesh
Chainsword
juggernoughts
Old ones
Albion
Deamons army book/codex
All Liber Chaotica
etc.
All circa 2005 onwards, vestiges of 1st ed indeed.
in short, your wrong

lets be honest, they are connected by a lack of imagination on GW's behalf

iproxtaco wrote:Do any of you people have a source which states a connection? Just now it's simply objects and characters which are similar due to individual interpretation, but no where does it state that they are the same, ergo. you can't prove your ridiculous theories.

Can I see some of your sources?

EDIT: Like for this bold statement here

iproxtaco wrote:

Formosa wrote:.... uh yeah I said they are seperate,
"But both are distinctly separate, but still connected."
And its obvious there seperate settings, same as DC/Marvel,
but even they CAN and HAVE had crossovers, same as fantasy and 40k, hell anyone remember that Dark emissary that put on a "a large cumbersome glove that destoys anything it touched" (paraphrased)

A Chainsword is a Chainsword in both worlds, the only diference is that superstitious belief turns a Chainsword into a Deamon weapon.

Have you goy a link to this "both worlds are completely 10000000% seperate" thing everyone has, otherwise its just hear say (not the band)?

No, I don't have a direct link, I know for a fact though that GW has stated the two worlds ARE NOT CONNECTED, likely way back in a WD is where it's actually printed,due to in part to numerous conversations with employees that have been mentioned on this forum, and the fact that I myself have had an employee tell me they aren't as part of 'official policy'. Again, certain names are used, said names are few and far between, and the object is different.
It's funny that you say they're connected but separate, make your mind up, they can't be both.

Fairfeldia wrote:lets be honest, they are connected by a lack of imagination on GW's behalf

Lol I suppose

I came to Dakka looking for interesting wargaming discussions I stay for the drama

Dare I voice my opinion just to see people in fits and frothing at the mouth?

On a side note I liked the liber chaotica stuff, it made me smile remembering the Warhammer world being referenced as a planet in the eye of terror somewhere or something. Really wish I hadn't sold all that stuff. But then in years to come GW said nope, the warhammer world isn't in the 40k universe. Perhaps the liber chaotica books are now just to illustrate the extent of the warp and the gods and daemons within. Where ever life is these emotions will condense into beings and where they have condensed will join the vast sprawling stuff that is the warp. And with Chaos emcompassing all possibilities etc, every facet of chaos is able to be seen in the warp even if you can't actually break through to another reality.

Or then again maybe they just didn't want Sigmar as a primarch and chaos lords with lightning claws and bolters anymore as no other race got then . Then they did as a one off which had no lasting effect on the world and had people buying some models they released just for the campaign and bits to convert fantasy models they also bought and wouldn't get to use again .

The system names thing mentioned earlier. It comes from when 40k used pretty much the warhammer system, hence warhammer 40k, here are your armies with guns in space. Back then it was linked but lets face it, it was a rules thing, not background thing that influenced the naming especially as warhammer had become a well selling product (I think it was on it's 3rd edition at the time?).

But please feel free to continue the frothing it's gave me a chuckle or two how seriously it's being taken.