38585
Post by: Armadeus
Hi all,
I am wondering if it is posible for a space marine to also be an inquisator. I am not asking if has been done befor. I am just wondering if it goes against any fluf. I am sorry if this is in the wrong forum. I didn't know weather to put it in fiction or here.
Thanks
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Technically, the first generation Inquisitors were Space Marines, or implied to be, but after that, no. Inquisitors are humans, who receive significantly more training, have much higher standards for recruits, and end up with more authority than Astartes can be trusted with, hence even the lowest Inquisitor having the de jure authority to have chapters put to the sword if they deem it necessary, even if they lack the internal clout to not have such an order immediately countermanded by their peers should it have been given in error.
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Post by: Commissar Squig
I don't think so..
43144
Post by: seanzor
Space Marines are mind wiped, genetically altered super space warriors with simplistic interior drive mechanisms. High tactical and physical prowess.
Inquisitors are highly trained, intelligent, well studied diplomats with combat training. They have to know everything about evil (Xenos, Heretics, Daemonkind) to be able to fight it, which puts them much more on the brink of failure than marines. Which is why their training is dependent more on mental and spiritual prowess than physical combat ability.
Inquisitors can wear power armor...thats about as close as you'll get.
38585
Post by: Armadeus
So its not posible to have an "inquisator chapter master" is it then? 
43144
Post by: seanzor
Well, where you could with it instead of the chapter master being an inquisitor is instead correlate something with the section of the =][= you speak of.
Obviously there are militant sections of each part.
Malleus>Grey Knights
Hereticus>Sisters of Battle
Xenos>Deathwatch
Chapter Master could have come out of one of these...
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Post by: tarnish
seanzor wrote:Well, where you could with it instead of the chapter master being an inquisitor is instead correlate something with the section of the =][= you speak of.
Obviously there are militant sections of each part.
Malleus>Grey Knights
Hereticus>Sisters of Battle
Xenos>Deathwatch
Chapter Master could have come out of one of these...
as mentioned in countless other threads, the sisters arent part of the inquisition or even in a close relationship with it. its one of the militant arms of the church. nevertheless the inquisitor has the option to aquire their aid if need be, and the case at hand is, well, heretical.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
seanzor wrote:Space Marines are mind wiped, genetically altered super space warriors with simplistic interior drive mechanisms. High tactical and physical prowess.
Fixed that for you.
Inquisitors are highly trained, intelligent, well studied diplomats with combat training. They have to know everything about evil (Xenos, Heretics, Daemonkind) to be able to fight it, which puts them much more on the brink of failure than marines. Which is why their training is dependent more on mental and spiritual prowess than physical combat ability.
Inquisitors can wear power armor...thats about as close as you'll get.
If they get to the point of Inquisitor, they've already proven their resilience, as the whole "exposed to the truth, or perhaps more accurately the details of Chaos" happens when they're an agent or interrogator for an Inquisitor, so those who break do so long before they can be nominated for full Inquisitorship. Space Marines just take children with glandular problems and drug them, while jamming assorted extraneous or redundant organs and mutagens into them, with the only test being whether or not they happen to randomly survive the operations. Automatically Appended Next Post: tarnish wrote:seanzor wrote:Well, where you could with it instead of the chapter master being an inquisitor is instead correlate something with the section of the =][= you speak of.
Obviously there are militant sections of each part.
Malleus>Grey Knights
Hereticus>Sisters of Battle
Xenos>Deathwatch
Chapter Master could have come out of one of these...
as mentioned in countless other threads, the sisters arent part of the inquisition or even in a close relationship with it. its one of the militant arms of the church. nevertheless the inquisitor has the option to aquire their aid if need be, and the case at hand is, well, heretical.
The SoB are considered the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus, which maintains relatively close ties to the ecclesiarchy, since their domains more or less overlap. They're not subordinate to the extent that the Grey Knights are, and don't have the same formal ties that those who volunteered or were sentenced to serve on the Deathwatch do, but they're still an Inquisitorial asset when it comes down to it.
I'm not sure why, though, since the Inquisition should have it's legions of Stormtroopers available, and could certainly afford to outfit them in better than carapace if it felt the need for power armored shock troops...
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Post by: Ashryu
No, they only let megalomaniacal humans do it
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Post by: ph34r
Armadeus wrote:So its not posible to have an "inquisator chapter master" is it then?
Not possible. You could have a chapter like the exorcists, or red hunters, that works very closely with the inquisition.
38585
Post by: Armadeus
ph34r wrote:Armadeus wrote:So its not posible to have an "inquisator chapter master" is it then?
Not possible. You could have a chapter like the exorcists, or red hunters, that works very closely with the inquisition.
Thats basicly the idea for my chapter, but it declared itself an army of the inquasition, and its chapter master is both a space marine and an inquisator. It would also have inquisators in chapter command (but only the chapter master is both space marine AND inquisator, the others are just inquisators).
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Post by: iproxtaco
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:seanzor wrote:Space Marines are mind wiped, genetically altered super space warriors with simplistic interior drive mechanisms. High tactical and physical prowess.
Fixed that for you.
No need. Space Marines have extreme tactical prowess, and they're sometimes mind-wiped upon induction. This view you have of Space Marines being useless is very radical, and not actually backed up by your single example, which is Calgar on Macragge.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
The only ones who are mind-wiped as general practice are Grey Knights, although they're a much better example of what Space Marines should be in concept, being subordinate to the Inquisition as opposed to effectively being a rogue nation that answers to no one. Further, the rest of the Marines take all their knowledge from a book written ten thousand years prior, by a man who both neither saw many battles nor needed any sort of skill to win said battles, due to overwhelming numbers of power armored shock troops, and who wrote said book with the explicit intention of hamstringing them so they would no longer be a threat to Imperial Authority.
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Post by: iproxtaco
True, it's annoying to have such vagueness about important things like this. The Astartes are technically only allies to the Imperium, as they have no real commander in chief, not even the High Lords. They stick around because they're loyal to humanity, nothing else. I guess many in high command are fearful for what happens when Space Marines decide they want to go off by themselves, as they're damn difficult to put down, having their own ships and being largely scattered across a vast galaxy. Even the Inquisition are 'fearful' for what happens when Astartes go rouge, which is another reason why they don't try to subvert them, other than a base conflict of purpose, methods and morals.
I don't understand this thing about Guilliman though. Now, don't get me wrong, he's my least favorite Primarch because he's so bland, but there's no evidence to suggest that he just stayed behind and watched. The Space Marines faced many enemies that were powerful and numerous, and the Marines were even then low in numbers per each expedition. Everything we know about him so far has pointed to him as being a masterful tactician. Take Calth, he managed to survive against the Word Bearers, despite being horrendously outnumbered.
The Codex Astartes, was, correctly stated, written to make the Space Marines a force that wouldn't pose such a huge threat to The Imperium if they went rouge. Now, they still do, but no where near as much as during the Heresy, but just because the Codex had that over-riding purpose, it doesn't mean the whole thing was useless. In reality, it has made The Space Marines a more effective force in todays Imperium.
I get annoyed at how GW can say that Space Marines are the ultimate fighting force, the only thing keeping The Imperium from falling, whilst saying they are ridiculously low in number for the huge number of conflicts that require their attention. They're the ultimate fighting force when they actually get stuck in, but even if they are all mobilized all the time, there's only perhaps only about 5000 planets out of the millions in The Imperium which could actually have an Astartes presence on them, probably even less.
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Post by: Cerebrium
That's because the Space Marines are only shock troops. The vast majority of Imperial conflicts are fought by the Imperial Guard. It just seems disproportionate because they've had so much coverage.
39868
Post by: iproxtaco
Yeah, that's kinda what I meant to add. The Marines don't fight in every conflict because they can't, despite how GW paints the picture.
Back on-topic, I would say the best bet is to have a Chapter Master that's either a Deathwatch veteran, or leader of a Chapter that's close to The Inquisition, like the Red Hunters. It would make for an interesting and original concept though.
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Post by: Bludbaff
There's a bit in The Siege of Vraks (I think part 3) where it talks about the Inquisitor Lord that takes over the campaign standing a head taller than the Space Marines in his command. I thought that was really odd. Either Forge World was implying that he had received modifications on par or better than Space Marine geneseed, or they just forgot that Marines are supposed to be like eight feet tall.
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Post by: Armadeus
iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, that's kinda what I meant to add. The Marines don't fight in every conflict because they can't, despite how GW paints the picture.
Back on-topic, I would say the best bet is to have a Chapter Master that's either a Deathwatch veteran, or leader of a Chapter that's close to The Inquisition, like the Red Hunters. It would make for an interesting and original concept though.
So its not activly iligal? Because if not it would make for a realy cool backstory. (Again, sorry about spelling.)
39868
Post by: iproxtaco
No it's not illegal, it depends whether you want to go for a completely original concept, with the Chapter Master being an Inquisitor and the Chapter being very close to The Inquisition, or if you want to go for a safer, more fluff oriented concept, in which the Chapter is very close to the Inquisiton where the many members of the Chapter are Deathwatch veterans or something similar to it.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Bludbaff wrote:There's a bit in The Siege of Vraks (I think part 3) where it talks about the Inquisitor Lord that takes over the campaign standing a head taller than the Space Marines in his command. I thought that was really odd. Either Forge World was implying that he had received modifications on par or better than Space Marine geneseed, or they just forgot that Marines are supposed to be like eight feet tall.
He had received modifications, but he was also wearing Terminator armor and a beast of a man to begin with.
Catachans, in the fluff, are about the same size as an Astartes Scout before he's fully modified et al. This isn't really new.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Last I heard, Catachans are supposed to be short and stocky...
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Post by: Kanluwen
Hadn't heard that. Have heard that they're fairly tall, but muscular.
Is kind of why they're called "Baby Ogryns".
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Post by: Dark Apostle 666
No, thats their abominable body odour that gets them that nickname. 
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Post by: Melissia
Kanluwen wrote:Hadn't heard that. Have heard that they're fairly tall, but muscular.
Is kind of why they're called "Baby Ogryns".
They are supposed to be as tall as, if not taller than, Ciaphas Cain, who was over two meters tall (IE, close to seven feet). iproxtaco wrote:No need. Space Marines have extreme tactical prowess
Which is why they always make dumb tactical decisions, amirite? iproxtaco wrote:I get annoyed at how GW can say that Space Marines are the ultimate fighting force, the only thing keeping The Imperium from falling
That's because they aren't. They never were. In fact, Space Marines are more a danger to humanity than a boon.
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Post by: UselessSage
From one of the Ultramarines novels, The Killing Ground, I think, the GKs are effectively Inquisitors, giving Urinal Vagtris and his buddie the official Chaos Free certification.
As far as the question, I agree that this could only happen with Ordos Xenos, Deathwatch. A SM is permanently attached, his tactical prowess in annihilating xenos scum is so great that the Inq consults with him more, and more, and more over the centurys. Over time the depth and breadth of knowledge about xenos extermination expands far beyond combat tactics and strategy and he is noticeably more skilled than the Inqs he reports to in other areas, investigation, research, etc.
*Edited for great grammar justice*
29408
Post by: Melissia
Even that is exceedingly unlikely. Deathwatch Marines are not actually notably good at investigation and etc (they're worse than the basic adept or arbites as far as things of lore, research, investigation, etc, and those are quite common amongst the Imperium, often quite a damn bit smarter than the average Astartes as well), they're basically the power armored fist (a power fist, as it were  ) of the Ordo Xenos. And even they tend to go back to their chapters after their stint of service. The Ordo Xenos IS a bit more subtle than the Hereticus or Malleus factions, though, so it is possible. Just unlikely. I think I'm gonna blame this thread on this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome
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Post by: Harriticus
tarnish wrote:seanzor wrote:Well, where you could with it instead of the chapter master being an inquisitor is instead correlate something with the section of the =][= you speak of.
Obviously there are militant sections of each part.
Malleus>Grey Knights
Hereticus>Sisters of Battle
Xenos>Deathwatch
Chapter Master could have come out of one of these...
as mentioned in countless other threads, the sisters arent part of the inquisition or even in a close relationship with it. its one of the militant arms of the church. nevertheless the inquisitor has the option to aquire their aid if need be, and the case at hand is, well, heretical.
I disagree that they aren't in a close relationship with them, the Witchhuners codex makes it pretty clear that the SoB and Ordo Hereticus duties frequently overlap and they work hand in hand on a regular basis.
But more on topic: No, you can't be a SM and Inquisitor at the same time. SM Chapters acting as Ordo Militants for Inquisition orders or working with Inquisitors still aren't formally part of the Inquisition nor are its members Inquisitors.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Melissia wrote:Even that is exceedingly unlikely. Deathwatch Marines are not actually notably good at investigation and etc (they're worse than the basic adept or arbites as far as things of lore, research, investigation, etc, and those are quite common amongst the Imperium, often quite a damn bit smarter than the average Astartes as well), they're basically the power armored fist (a power fist, as it were ) of the Ordo Xenos. And even they tend to go back to their chapters after their stint of service.
The Ordo Xenos IS a bit more subtle than the Hereticus or Malleus factions, though, so it is possible. Just unlikely.
This is kind of a fallacy. Deathwatch, while not "notably good at investigation and the like" also aren't meant to be "investigators" in the same sense that Arbites or the Inquisitiorial Adepts are. Nor are Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle for that matter.
They are all, effectively, the 'troubleshooters' of the Inquisitorial Ordos that employ them.
Their job is to, once the Inquisition identifies a problem, shoot it.
Of course, the Deathwatch also has a secondary role that neither the Sisters or Grey Knights have in that they also recover Xenos tech and/or live Xenos for further study.
The Grey Knights don't have this role likely because capturing Daemons is a stupid risk and they have no real 'tech', while the Sisters of Battle will occasionally take prisoners and interrogate them before forcing them to repent.
29408
Post by: Melissia
You just repeated what i said Automatically Appended Next Post: Harriticus wrote:I disagree that they aren't in a close relationship with them, the Witchhuners codex makes it pretty clear that the SoB and Ordo Hereticus duties frequently overlap and they work hand in hand on a regular basis.
Not really. C: WH itself focuses on the actions of the Sisters as a body independent of the Inquisition.
The Sisters are, and have always been, primarily the army of the Ecclesiarchy.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Melissia wrote:You just repeated what i said
Not really.
Your statement was that "Space Marines are actually not notably good at investigation and etc(they're worse than the basic adept or arbites as far as things of lore, research, investigation, etc, and those are quite common amongst the Imperium, often quite a damn bit smarter than the average Astartes as well)".
That's not necessarily true. We've never really seen them used in an investigative role. It may not be because of them being "notably not good" at it, and may simply be because there's a perception by the Inquisition of Astartes being unable to do the role except in special circumstances.
For example:
I'd rather let an Astartes of the Dark Angels or Raven Guard Chapters run a covert operation than a Thorian Inquisitor, but I wouldn't have a Space Wolf or Black Templar run the same covert operation.
The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites. It's part of the genetic enhancement package. None of them are big dumb brutes. The problem is simply that they apply their intelligence differently in many cases, and that to say "average Astartes" is covering every single Chapter.
Not every Chapter are close combat obsessed killers. Many are very tactically aware as was evidenced by the Raven Guard plotting out the Raid on Kastorel-Novem.
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Post by: Melissia
Kanluwen wrote:I'd rather let an Astartes of the Dark Angels or Raven Guard Chapters run a covert operation than a Thorian Inquisitor, but I wouldn't have a Space Wolf or Black Templar run the same covert operation.
Run one... maybe, as a good sergeant or captain is bound to have leadership skills for such a small scale endeavor. PARTICIPATE? No. The Astartes would give himself away even if he was dressed in civvy clothes. The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.
They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity. Astartes have faster reaction speed, I'd grant you that, but there honestly isn't anything in their extra organs or their training indicating that they're going to have a higher intellectual capacity than any common human. In fact, humans can also receive hypnotherapy and mental indoctrinations. Assassins do this, as do the Mechanicus (albeit via a different route). Even psykers often receive levels of hypnotherapy as part of their sanctioning. As a side note and somewhat unrelated, my scholar in Dark Heresy has an intelligence far beyond anything a Marine can ever hope to achieve... Having Unnatural Intelligence (4) or so by the end of her Ascension xp, and an intelligence rating of 70 or so, giving her an intelligence bonus of 28, about seven times that of the average Deathwatch Astartes. Even before she ascension, she had 60 and a bonus of 12...
Effectively, she was knowledgeable and intelligent enough to be able to teach Imperial tactics to veteran Astartes of the deathwatch. It was hilarious.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Melissia wrote:Kanluwen wrote:I'd rather let an Astartes of the Dark Angels or Raven Guard Chapters run a covert operation than a Thorian Inquisitor, but I wouldn't have a Space Wolf or Black Templar run the same covert operation.
Run one... maybe, as a good sergeant or captain is bound to have leadership skills for such a small scale endeavor. PARTICIPATE? No. The Astartes would give himself away even if he was dressed in civvy clothes.
Covert operations do not necessarily require dressing in civvy clothes and talking to civilians with a cover identity. That's "espionage", specifically.
To give an example: the Raven Guard ran "covert operations" on Ork held worlds prior to Kastorel-Novem to gather intelligence. They used Scout Squads in hidden observation posts, listening posts, and simple visual confirmation of various Klans, etc involved.
Putting it bluntly: "investigations" don't need to be conducted in the manner you're referring to exclusively. If you were to ask a member of the Dark Angels to find a heretic cell on an Imperial world, I can confidently say they'd find it--but their methods to find it wouldn't be pretty.
The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.
They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity. Astartes have faster reaction speed, I'd grant you that, but there honestly isn't anything in their extra organs or their training indicating that they're going to have a higher intellectual capacity than any common human.
In fact, humans can also receive hypnotherapy and mental indoctrinations. Assassins do this, as do the Mechanicus (albeit via a different route). Even psykers often receive levels of hypnotherapy as part of their sanctioning.
Part of the mental indoctrinations and hypnotherapy is the kind of stuff that makes the Astartes able to 'do things by instinct' such as assembling weapons unfamiliar to them, etc.
As a side note and somewhat unrelated, my scholar in Dark Heresy has an intelligence far beyond anything a Marine can ever hope to achieve... Having Unnatural Intelligence (4) or so by the end of her Ascension xp, and an intelligence rating of 70 or so, giving her an intelligence bonus of 28, about seven times that of the average Deathwatch Astartes. Even before she ascension, she had 60 and a bonus of 12...
Effectively, she was knowledgeable and intelligent enough to be able to teach Imperial tactics to veteran Astartes of the deathwatch. It was hilarious.
Yeah, that's an example of when I'd say "Ignore the smartypants, it's a backseat tactician".
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Post by: Melissia
You might, but she was also a combat veteran. I mean, you HAVE to be to survive in Dark Heresy-- you try playing an Adept from 0 XP to the last rank of Ascension and having her actually survive with most of her limbs intact... It's a lot harder than it sounds, even for Dark Heresy. Adepts have the lowest wound count of any DH character... Part of the mental indoctrinations and hypnotherapy is the kind of stuff that makes the Astartes able to 'do things by instinct' such as assembling weapons unfamiliar to them, etc.
But as I said, that's something normal humans can and do receive. It's not like the implants, which are unique to Astartes...
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Post by: Kanluwen
Melissia wrote:You might, but she was also a combat veteran. I mean, you HAVE to be to survive in Dark Heresy-- you try playing an Adept from 0 XP to the last rank of Ascension and having her actually survive with most of her limbs intact...
It's a lot harder than it sounds, even for Dark Heresy. Adepts have the lowest wound count of any DH character...
Aemos was a combat veteran, by your definition in that he "survived".
He was also completely useless in combat, but had an absurdly high theoretical grasp of tactics.
Just sayin'
Part of the mental indoctrinations and hypnotherapy is the kind of stuff that makes the Astartes able to 'do things by instinct' such as assembling weapons unfamiliar to them, etc.
But as I said, that's something normal humans can and do receive.
It's not like the implants, which are unique to Astartes...
I dunno. They make it seem like Astartes are a bit more 'open' to the hypnoconditioning process due to their overall conditioning.
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Post by: Melissia
Actually she got the most kills out of the group aside from the heavy stubber wielding brute we had as a guardsman...
Her hand cannon was notorious for getting high damage headshots 
It's possible... but I doubt it. It's probably more likely that the methods aren't well known.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Armadeus wrote:ph34r wrote:Armadeus wrote:So its not posible to have an "inquisator chapter master" is it then?
Not possible. You could have a chapter like the exorcists, or red hunters, that works very closely with the inquisition.
Thats basicly the idea for my chapter, but it declared itself an army of the inquasition, and its chapter master is both a space marine and an inquisator. It would also have inquisators in chapter command (but only the chapter master is both space marine AND inquisator, the others are just inquisators).
A space marine chapter master that has the power to take any military/political position and supplies he wants? There is a book dealing with this, the Codex Astartes, power was seperated to stop the Horus Heresy happening again. It is highly unlikely that a modern space marine to be made an inquisitor and impossible for an active chapter master to be one.
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Post by: Daston
The only evidence I have seen that marines have a higher intellegence than humans is from the Inquisitor RPG.
A SM has the basic Sagacity of 75 where as a well educated man would be around 50 and an inquisitor will have 75 - 95 depending if they are an acolite or lord.
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Post by: Lobokai
Way back to the OP, yes a space marine might be able to become an inquisitor (but, I assume would end up leaving his chapter). It is very strongly hinted to at the end of the Grey Knight novels that Alaric has the opportunity to leave his Chapter (Grey Knights) and become an member of an inquisition team... which at least leaves the possibility of him becoming an inquisitor.
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Post by: Agent_Tremolo
An Astartes is a terrible thing to waste. Few and not easily replaced, I seriously doubt their chapter would let their finest go, even if it`s the Inquisition who's calling.
Really, Astartes are bioengineered supersoldiers, literally bred for combat. Even if some individual marines know better about daemons and heretics than your average inquisitor, their place is in the battlefield, not doing police work that, important as it may be, could be carried out by ordinary, unmodified humans.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
It would technically be possible for a Space Marine to be an Inquisitor. The Astartes and Inquisition both operate with basically no oversight, so there isn't really anyone to tell them they couldn't do this if they wanted to.
Typically, Marines do not get along with the Inquisition, because they both consider themselves to be the higher authority on most things, so such a thing would be very unlikely.
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Post by: Kanluwen
DarknessEternal wrote:It would technically be possible for a Space Marine to be an Inquisitor. The Astartes and Inquisition both operate with basically no oversight, so there isn't really anyone to tell them they couldn't do this if they wanted to.
No, it would not. The Inquisition does not admit Astartes within their ranks.
And the Inquisition has oversight. The Inquisition itself. They garner an atmosphere of paranoia and "Trust Noone" for a reason.
Typically, Marines do not get along with the Inquisition, because they both consider themselves to be the higher authority on most things, so such a thing would be very unlikely.
So false I'm not even sure why you'd post it.
There is no "typical" reason why Marines do not get along with the Inquisition at large. That's not true and is a fallacy that is established based on Astartes reactions dealing with specific Inquisitors and their methods.
For example: the Astartes would object if an Inquisitor showed up in their fortress-monastery and started ordering them around and refusing to treat them with the respect that they deserve as inheritors of the Emperor's legacy.
Why? The Astartes are not under the purview of the Inquisition. There's no reason for an Inquisitor to start doing that, and Inquisitors who tend towards behaving that way aren't usually on the up and up.
In many cases, if that Inquisitor were to show up and petition the Astartes for aid--they'd get it no questions asked.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Kanluwen wrote:
No, it would not. The Inquisition does not admit Astartes within their ranks.
The Inquisition was founded with Astartes as their original members, so that's flat out incorrect. That they don't typically do it now is irrelevant to whether or not they could. They don't typically keep pet Hormaguants either, but one Inquisitor certainly does.
Kanluwen wrote:
And the Inquisition has oversight. The Inquisition itself. They garner an atmosphere of paranoia and "Trust Noone" for a reason.
Right, that's the definition of no oversight.
DarknessEternal wrote:
Typically, Marines do not get along with the Inquisition, because they both consider themselves to be the higher authority on most things, so such a thing would be very unlikely.
Kanluwen wrote:
So false I'm not even sure why you'd post it.
Because that's been the background since both organizations have existed in the 40k fluff. Space Marines don't take kindly to being ordered around as they believe they are not subject to Imperial authority. The Inquisition believes they have the right to order everyone else in the Imperium around. Those two things don't mix and it's come up numerous times in the background.
Kanluwen wrote:
In many cases, if that Inquisitor were to show up and petition the Astartes for aid--they'd get it no questions asked.
And in some cases, the Inquisition is fired upon, no questions asked, when they show up in Space Marine territory. Space Wolves are at a state of declared open war with the Inquisition.
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Post by: Kanluwen
DarknessEternal wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
No, it would not. The Inquisition does not admit Astartes within their ranks.
The Inquisition was founded with Astartes as their original members, so that's flat out incorrect. That they don't typically do it now is irrelevant to whether or not they could. They don't typically keep pet Hormaguants either, but one Inquisitor certainly does.
Actually the Inquisition being founded with Astartes as their original members is pure speculation at this point.
Kanluwen wrote:
And the Inquisition has oversight. The Inquisition itself. They garner an atmosphere of paranoia and "Trust Noone" for a reason.
Right, that's the definition of no oversight.
Uh no. It's called "internal oversight".
DarknessEternal wrote:
Typically, Marines do not get along with the Inquisition, because they both consider themselves to be the higher authority on most things, so such a thing would be very unlikely.
Kanluwen wrote:
So false I'm not even sure why you'd post it.
Because that's been the background since both organizations have existed in the 40k fluff. Space Marines don't take kindly to being ordered around as they believe they are not subject to Imperial authority. The Inquisition believes they have the right to order everyone else in the Imperium around. Those two things don't mix and it's come up numerous times in the background.
Space Marines don't take kindly to being ordered around by someone who proclaims himself the Emperor's will made manifest, when the Space Marines are effectively the "Grandsons of the Emperor".
This isn't a case of "they believe they are not subject to Imperial authority". This is a case of "We know our usage and place better than you".
If an Inquisitor comes in and demands an entire Chapter serve as frontline troops in a warzone, they'll laugh and throw his arse right back on his ship--with good reason, too.
Kanluwen wrote:
In many cases, if that Inquisitor were to show up and petition the Astartes for aid--they'd get it no questions asked.
And in some cases, the Inquisition is fired upon, no questions asked, when they show up in Space Marine territory. Space Wolves are at a state of declared open war with the Inquisition.
Once again, this is false.
The Space Wolves are not at a "state of declared open war with the Inquisition". There's members of the Inquisition who call the Space Wolves heretics, but there's also members of the Inquisition who leveled the same charges against Marneus Calgar.
This is one of those cases where the breadth of the Inquisition is both a hindrance and a boon. Members of the Inquisition can hoot and holler all they want about the Space Wolves being heretics--it doesn't mean that the Inquisition itself believes it.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
You still have yet to prove why this would be the one inviolable rule of the Inquisition. They use aliens, make pacts with daemons, hold aliens in slave labor, exterminate their own innocent populace, etc.
They do whatever they feel like doing. They do whatever it takes. How is inviting a Space Marine into the Inquisition less tolerable than cavorting with daemons, for example?
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Post by: Thousand Nuns
Quick question where does it say that marines can't join the inquisition? Doesn't an Imperial fist join draco in the inquisition trilogy books and (correct me if i'm wrong on this) but doesn't an inquisitor offer Alaric a job at the end of the last grey knights book, if a space marine can be recruited into a warband couldn't he possibly become an inquisitor if deemed worthy?
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Post by: Kravox
They should be able to be inquisitors
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Post by: purplefood
Why?
It just allows SM to be even more Mary Sue than they already are and they are pretty Mary Sue already.
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Post by: DEUS VULT
No, its not possible.
Stop doing fluff gymnastics. Actually think about the issue and it becomes clear that this scenario is nonsense.
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Post by: Kanluwen
DarknessEternal wrote:You still have yet to prove why this would be the one inviolable rule of the Inquisition.
You've yet to prove that it's not.
They use aliens, make pacts with daemons, hold aliens in slave labor, exterminate their own innocent populace, etc.
They do whatever they feel like doing. They do whatever it takes. How is inviting a Space Marine into the Inquisition less tolerable than cavorting with daemons, for example?
You must not read much fluff.
They 'use aliens and hold aliens in slave labor'--because they believe it is their right, as the Emperor's will made manifest and in the greater interests of humanity, to do such a thing. They play aliens off against one another more often than they "use aliens" as bodyguards and line troopers.
The Jokaero thing is actually a retcon to earlier fluff where every time the Jokaero were 'captured'--the Jokaero built a device and escaped.
Making pacts with Daemons is grounds for being called a heretic and put to death by the Inquisition. That's the whole point of the Eisenhorn series, btw, wherein an Inquisitor becomes more and more jaded and realizes more that "the ends justify the means" is the worst possible way to go.
Exterminating "their own innocent populace" is actually rarely done. They don't just wake up and say "Y'know, I feel like killing a world today". It's usually done in such a dire situation that it would be stupid for them not to do it.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Kanluwen wrote:-because they believe it is their right, as the Emperor's will made manifest and in the greater interests of humanity,
And somehow this can never be "have a Space Marine in the organization"? That makes less sense that keeping a hormaguant as a guard dog, which is canon.
The only thing the Inquistion will never do is limit themselves. If they wanted a Space Marine Inquisitor, they would make it happen. They've made far more ludicrous decisions.
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Post by: DEUS VULT
DarknessEternal wrote:Kanluwen wrote:-because they believe it is their right, as the Emperor's will made manifest and in the greater interests of humanity,
And somehow this can never be "have a Space Marine in the organization"? That makes less sense that keeping a hormaguant as a guard dog, which is canon.
The only thing the Inquistion will never do is limit themselves. If they wanted a Space Marine Inquisitor, they would make it happen. They've made far more ludicrous decisions.
And how, praytell, would a Space Marine become an inquisitor?
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Post by: Melissia
Quite frankly, and I know this is gonna cause a gakstorm, Space Marines don't have the indomitable willpower that inquisitors do.
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Post by: Eumerin
You'd have to focus on -
1.) Why would the Inquisition specifically want a space marine as an inquisitor? Does the Inquisition need a space marine specifically (And if so, why? It'd be much easier just to borrow a handful as is usually done.)? Or is there something unusual about the marine in question?
2.) Why would the marine want to leave his chapter to join the Inquisition? The marine has spent almost his entire life in the chapter. Fighting is what he was designed to do and it's what he understands. Why would he leave that life in order to go running around the galaxy chasing shadows? A space marine has lots of experience performing assaults on well-defended structures and similar sorts of things. While inquisitors do sometimes see that sort of thing, it's the exception more than the rule. Working as an inquisitor would require the marine to develop an entirely new skillset.
3.) Why would the marine's Chapter Master agree to allow the marine to leave the chapter? Presumably, the marine in question has a rather unusual skillset, which is why he's being released to the Inquisition. Why would the Chapter Master agree to allow the marine to leave the chapter permanently?
These aren't insurmountable by any means, but they're something that needs to be thought if you want to try to develop this properly.
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Post by: purplefood
Melissia wrote:Quite frankly, and I know this is gonna cause a gakstorm, Space Marines don't have the indomitable willpower that inquisitors do.
I'd agree with this...
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Post by: DEUS VULT
Melissia wrote:Quite frankly, and I know this is gonna cause a gakstorm, Space Marines don't have the indomitable willpower that inquisitors do.
Thats probably more or less fair. Save for "and they shall know no fear", chaplains, librarians, dreadnoughts, many company captains and above, also the Grey Knights and chapters akin to the Exorcists.
For the rank and file, I think that might be fair. Of course, its a much more complex issue than simply labeling it as "willpower"
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Post by: Melissia
The methods by which an Inquisitor is trained are far more intense than the training methods of an Astartes.
Inquisitors are willing to put an entire planet in jeopardy just to test a single Interrogator to see if he or she is worthy to the title.
One example given is that a single test for then-Interrogator Okonawk caused over 100,000 people to die, and the entire thing was completely and utterly orchestrated by his Inquisitor to test his fortitude. It's common enough that they have a name for it, the "Armageddon Protocol", where the cadre in question is forced to try to prevent the destruction of an entire world, even as the destruction is being orchestrated by the Inquisitor. Frequently, they don't even allow the Inquisitor-to-be any chance of success, the entire mission being specifically a zero-sum mission, and the test is about their will to keep going on no matter the situation.
Let me repeat-- hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people are killed off merely as a single test of many.
Space Marines are lightly trained in comparison to Inquisitors.
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Post by: DEUS VULT
yes, and astartes pull the trigger of Exterminatus
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
People, Its not that a biological Astartes cannot be an Inquisitor. It's that someone from the Chapters cannot be in the Inquisition. They are two distinct entities and there's a conflict of interest. You're either in the Inquisition or you're not. It has nothing to do with the physiology. A lot of Inquisitors do much weirder stuff to themselves than an Astartes could ever think of. Some are much less human than Astares or even AdMechA.
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Post by: DEUS VULT
KamikazeCanuck wrote:People, Its not that a biological Astartes cannot be an Inquisitor. It's that someone from the Chapters cannot be in the Inquisition. They are two distinct entities and there's a conflict of interest. You're either in the Inquisition or you're not. It has nothing to do with the physiology. A lot of Inquisitors do much weirder stuff to themselves than an Astartes could ever think of. Some are much less human than Astares or even AdMechA.
This
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Post by: Melissia
DEUS VULT wrote:yes, and astartes pull the trigger of Exterminatus
Most of the time, no.
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Post by: MendedDragon
Melissia wrote:You might, but she was also a combat veteran. I mean, you HAVE to be to survive in Dark Heresy-- you try playing an Adept from 0 XP to the last rank of Ascension and having her actually survive with most of her limbs intact...
It's a lot harder than it sounds, even for Dark Heresy. Adepts have the lowest wound count of any DH character...
Ha, that reminds me of one of my Dark Heresy things. I was playing an Arbites,and event after event transpired, and 5 gun servitors came through an opening about 30 meters away. Me and the Adept were the only combat effective ones in just 2 rounds, and by then I took 5 Heavy Stubber Rounds and barely made it out. Only 2 critical damage to the arm
AND that was extremely off-topic. I'm pretty sure that an Astartes could not be an Inquisitor, and if he could, he probably wouldn't accept. I, and please correct me, am pretty sure Astartes want to stay with their chapters.
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Post by: DEUS VULT
Melissia wrote:DEUS VULT wrote:yes, and astartes pull the trigger of Exterminatus
Most of the time, no.
K, sunshine.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exterminatus
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Post by: purplefood
Lexicanum isn't good for details...
Maybe for overview but for specifics it isn't as much.
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Post by: DEUS VULT
purplefood wrote:Lexicanum isn't good for details...
Maybe for overview but for specifics it isn't as much.
Yeah, I know. But Im lazy right now and its stated throughout the fluff... INq gives the orders, Space Marines drop the exterminatus. Couldnt well trust the Imperial Navy with planet killing hardware could we?
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Post by: purplefood
Well...
We could and we do...
The Imperial Navy is just as capable of performing an exterminatus as the Astartes.
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Post by: DEUS VULT
purplefood wrote:Well...
We could and we do...
The Imperial Navy is just as capable of performing an exterminatus as the Astartes.
Hey maybe I'm wrong. Please point me to some fluff and Ill reconsider my situation.
"we"?
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Post by: purplefood
DEUS VULT wrote:purplefood wrote:Well...
We could and we do...
The Imperial Navy is just as capable of performing an exterminatus as the Astartes.
Hey maybe I'm wrong. Please point me to some fluff and Ill reconsider my situation.
"we"?
We as in the way you used we.
Let me go see if i can find something...
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Why? What difference does it make? Astartes, Imperial Navy, and Inquistion all can and do destroy worlds. Turns out it's pretty easy to do. Doesn't mean anything one way or the other.
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Post by: purplefood
That's a fair point...
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Post by: DEUS VULT
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Why? What difference does it make? Astartes, Imperial Navy, and Inquistion all can and do destroy worlds. Turns out it's pretty easy to do. Doesn't mean anything one way or the other.
Do you mind? were picking nits here!
Gotta have my lunch. Shoot....
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Post by: DarknessEternal
It seems like we finally agree that it's possible, but very unlikely for many different reasons.
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Post by: Melissia
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Why? What difference does it make?
Because Astartes don't have the authority to proclaim exterminatus upon Imperial worlds. That's far too much power, and the Imperium doesn't trust Astartes with that much power after the Horus Heresy.
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Post by: Lobokai
Melissia wrote:DEUS VULT wrote:yes, and astartes pull the trigger of Exterminatus
Most of the time, no.
Very true... in fact the Inquisition and Chapters have gotten in titanic fits over the =][= over using Exterminatus (in SM eyes). To my memory in GW fluff we've had three times in which Chapter Masters or Captains have fought to avoid Exterminatus... its been so bitter the =][= wiped out the Celestial Lions due to their complaints on Exterminatus miss use.
However, none of the nay sayers have explained the offer the =][= made to Alaric... seemed pretty clear to me that they were offering him the chance to leave the Grey Knights and join the Inquisition (don't think I'm reading that into the Grey Knight series, its pretty straight forward).
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Post by: Melissia
Just because you've joind the Inquisition as an organization doesn't mean you've become a full blown inquisitor.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Why? What difference does it make?
Because Astartes don't have the authority to proclaim exterminatus upon Imperial worlds. That's far too much power, and the Imperium doesn't trust Astartes with that much power after the Horus Heresy.
Cyclonic, planetkilling, torpedoes are standard issue on Space Marine Vessels. They do use them on their own. Does The Inquisition destroy the most worlds? Yes, but that's hardly something to be proud of.
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Post by: Melissia
And yet, they still don't actually have the authority to use them, except MAYBE on their own planets. Even then it's unlikely, as the Blood Ravens called the Inquisition to perform exterminatus on their planets, not doing it themselves.
Both times, I should note.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Authority schmority.
I've got these bombs. I'ma drop 'em!
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Kanluwen wrote:Authority schmority.
I've got these bombs. I'ma drop 'em!
Pretty much.
"Sir, looks like we got one of those warp rifts of doom that'll destroy the galaxy in 10 minutes again"
"Emperor's Teeth! I hate those things! Well we got to fill out the form to apply, to petition, to request, to communicate with the local Inquisitorial conclave guys. Y'know form DF3534FWF-Y1354. Should take about 4-6 weeks - I mean years."
"Yeah, let's just blow up the Planet"
"Yes sir".
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Post by: Omegus
Melissia wrote:That's because they aren't. They never were. In fact, Space Marines are more a danger to humanity than a boon.
Quoted for emphasis. The Emperor and his mutated progeny are the worst tragedy ever to befall not only humanity, but the galaxy as a whole.
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Post by: GazzyG
I know that Marines can become attached to Inquisitorial retinues.
In Kill Team, there's a lone marine who's kept as a secret from the rest of the team until he's needed. But at the end of that I think he was on about leaving (can't be arsed to check the book, even though it's five feet from me), so perhaps he was on a one-man crusade and the Inquisitor simply saw his usefulness and persuaded him to join them for a time, rather than the marine being an 'official' part of the team.
I remain unconvinced, however, as to whether a Marine can actually progress through the Inquisitorial ranks. Or even join them in an official capacity. It would be nice fluff, very characterful, but I think with the ridiculous bureaucracy of the Imperium it's unlikely to happen.
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Post by: Toastedandy
Werent the original Inquisitors space marines who escaped on the Eisenhorn or something? (been a while since I read it)
But that was just after the horus heresy either began or ended (again been awhile)
The average astartes are warriors, bred for war and combat in all its forms, not for covert operations or petty murders. So agree with Kanluwen that Dark Angels or Raven Guard would make better Inquisitors because of their personality.
But saying that, Dark angels would have their own objectives, and are already used too snooping around covering up stuff.
Deathwatch are the fist of Ordo Xenos. Inqusitor points at something, they destroy it, SOB are bible bashing corpse worshippers who would be blind to anything but the Imperial 'truth'. Grey Knights would be the smartest out of the lot, but wouldnt have the patience to be an Inquisitor
So you would have to find a particularly smart, patient
Marine, but this would be rare in the astratus.
(Im not saying they are stupid, just specialized in their thinking, ie they are bred for war in all its forms)
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Post by: zilegil
It is possible, rules wise, to make an inquisitor a marine. You can give them artificer armour. I have not seen their rules, so i'm not sure whether they are str 4, ws 4, bs 4, et ceterer. So if you want an SM commander rules wise you are almost sorted. But I seem to remember that they banned allies between imperial dxs on 5th ed. I don't even think that they ever allowed it.
If the reason you want an inquisitor is backgroundwise, your screwed. But inquisitors are sometimes basically Astartes. They are sometimes genetically augmented to the size that of a marine, so they can wear ornate artificer power armour, or terminator armour, depending on their style.
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Post by: Omegus
If you have a copy of C: Witch Hunters, you can still have Inquisitor allies, but they are nowhere near Space Marines.
Anyway, there is no fluff or precedent for Space Marine Inquisitors (with the possible exception of Grey Knights as evidenced by Alaric, although even that is not clear), as an Inquisitor is supposed to be able to integrate himself in society to do his job. A Space Marine will stick out like a sore thumb
But hey, it's your army and the fluff behind it can be whatever you want. I've seen an army concept flying around this forum that was basically "a warpstorm happens, and my 14-yo self is teleported from algebra class into the 40K universe, where I become a Chapter Master and kick ass".
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Post by: Melissia
Toastedandy wrote:SOB are bible bashing corpse worshippers who would be blind to anything but the Imperial 'truth'.
THAT certainly isn't true. The various orders of the Adepta Sororitas are very much capable of independent, intelligent military thought.
It'd be impossible for them to have forces of veterans of hundreds if not thousands of battles and wars otherwise. Many of them probably have better tactical acumen than the average general.
At least if Gaunt's Ghosts is to be believed, but frankly I think Abnett is a bit overdoing that aspect of the Sabbat Crusade, given that the other books don't have it anywhere near as bleak.
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Post by: nobody
Melissia wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Why? What difference does it make?
Because Astartes don't have the authority to proclaim exterminatus upon Imperial worlds. That's far too much power, and the Imperium doesn't trust Astartes with that much power after the Horus Heresy.
I'm pretty sure there are cases of the Astartes doing just that when they've determined the world is beyond saving.
Probably the best example I can think of is the battle of Sondheim V that's referenced in the Tyranid codex and expanded on in the GK codex. The Sky Sentinels chapter saw that the world was caught in a battle between Tyranids and a major Daemonic incursion and decided to go with Exterminatus as the planet was beyond saving.
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Post by: Melissia
nobody wrote:I'm pretty sure there are cases of the Astartes doing just that when they've determined the world is beyond saving.
Just because someone DOES something doesn't mean they have the authority to. The Space Marines carry themselves as separate from the Imperium. Fine, but that also means they have no legal authority over the Imperium's worlds, only what bare charisma and reputation allows. The Inquisition is not impressed by either.
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Post by: nobody
Melissia wrote:nobody wrote:I'm pretty sure there are cases of the Astartes doing just that when they've determined the world is beyond saving.
Just because someone DOES something doesn't mean they have the authority to.
Considering the Grey Knights only asked them to hold off until they could go down and retrieve an artifact, I'd say the fact that they didn't face any repercussions (beyond the standard "you saw chaos, MINDWIPE!") is pretty telling.
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Post by: Melissia
It just means that they got away with it because it was justified.
Marines have a lot of plot armor like that.
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Post by: nobody
Out of curiosity, what is the source on your statement that Astartes cannot declare exterminatus?
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Post by: Melissia
nobody wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the source on your statement that Astartes cannot declare exterminatus?
What source do you have to say that they have the authority to put to death billions upon billions of people and irrevocably remove the resources of an entire planet from the Imperial arsenal without Inquisitorial review? Even an Inquisitor can be punished for declaring exterminatus. Astartes are far, far less than an Inquisitor.
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Post by: nobody
Melissia wrote:nobody wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the source on your statement that Astartes cannot declare exterminatus?
What source do you have to say that they have the authority to put to death billions upon billions of people and irrevocably remove the resources of an entire planet from the Imperial arsenal without Inquisitorial review?
Even an Inquisitor can be punished for declaring exterminatus. Astartes are far, far less than an Inquisitor.
I'm not the one claiming that Astartes lack the authority to call for exterminatus, considering that they only answer to the Emperor (and he's not talking much these days).
There are examples in the codices, books, etc where they do call for exterminatus and are not brought to task for it, perhaps because they only resort to it in extreme circumstances and don't just leap to using it to clear Genestealer and Chaos cult infestations
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Post by: Maeyrl
Space marines are genetically altered,psychologically conditioned,and spiritually molded for War. There are some,Chapter masters and Captains mostly, who do ok in political situations.
An Inquisitor cannot always be guns out blazing away.For the most part they have to root out the Herectics,Xenos,or Chaos first. And that involves red tape, a thing most marines would find unbearable.
Then when they are aware of the ongoings,they investigate.How easy can a gigantic man( as space marines would be seen) hide in a crowd of normae l people?
Also Space marines have Chaplains to whom they go to keep their soul pure.Librarians to sense corruption at its start.Who would a Space marine Inquisitor go to? What makes a Space marine also destroys the human in them.They sacrifice their humanity to protect Humanity itself. Without the Chaplains and Librarians how easily will a Space Marine Inquisitor fall to the lure of Chaos he is hunting?
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Post by: Omegus
nobody wrote:Melissia wrote:nobody wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the source on your statement that Astartes cannot declare exterminatus?
What source do you have to say that they have the authority to put to death billions upon billions of people and irrevocably remove the resources of an entire planet from the Imperial arsenal without Inquisitorial review?
Even an Inquisitor can be punished for declaring exterminatus. Astartes are far, far less than an Inquisitor.
I'm not the one claiming that Astartes lack the authority to call for exterminatus, considering that they only answer to the Emperor (and he's not talking much these days).
There are examples in the codices, books, etc where they do call for exterminatus and are not brought to task for it, perhaps because they only resort to it in extreme circumstances and don't just leap to using it to clear Genestealer and Chaos cult infestations
Astartes answer to the Lords of Terra, the Emperor's representatives. The Inquisitors also carry the Emperor's authority, so Astartes very much answer to them as well.
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Post by: iproxtaco
That's also proven to be wrong, many Astrartes don't agree with and actively go against the Inquisition, refusing to take order from them, although it's only ever when The Inquisitor tries to order them around like he's the authority, or does something very stupid. they essentially co-exist due to the fact that their goals generally over-lap I'm not even sure they answer to The High Lords.
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Post by: DeffDred
Yes, a space marine can be an inquisitor. Y'all need to read your massive collections of fluff.
Grey Knights are the most notable. They often times are inquisitors turned into astartes. (Index Astartes)
Even the Horus Heresy shows astartes taking on unusual roles of power. (Nemesis)
Some mystery fluff hints at astartes involvement as well. (Inquisitor)
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Post by: nobody
Omegus wrote:nobody wrote:Melissia wrote:nobody wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the source on your statement that Astartes cannot declare exterminatus?
What source do you have to say that they have the authority to put to death billions upon billions of people and irrevocably remove the resources of an entire planet from the Imperial arsenal without Inquisitorial review?
Even an Inquisitor can be punished for declaring exterminatus. Astartes are far, far less than an Inquisitor.
I'm not the one claiming that Astartes lack the authority to call for exterminatus, considering that they only answer to the Emperor (and he's not talking much these days).
There are examples in the codices, books, etc where they do call for exterminatus and are not brought to task for it, perhaps because they only resort to it in extreme circumstances and don't just leap to using it to clear Genestealer and Chaos cult infestations
Astartes answer to the Lords of Terra, the Emperor's representatives. The Inquisitors also carry the Emperor's authority, so Astartes very much answer to them as well.
To an extent, yes. Astartes can and do reject Inquisitional requests, albet with potential consequences (see also, Celestial Lions).
But to the point of the matter, the Astartes can and do carry out Exterminatus, and do not require Inquisitional authority to do so.
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Post by: iproxtaco
DeffDred wrote:Yes, a space marine can be an inquisitor. Y'all need to read your massive collections of fluff.
I think you need to, as Space Marines can't in fluff.
Grey Knights are the most notable. They often times are inquisitors turned into astartes. (Index Astartes)
Wrong, Inquisiors have never been turned into Astartes
Even the Horus Heresy shows astartes taking on unusual roles of power. (Nemesis)
What roles of power were these?
Some mystery fluff hints at astartes involvement as well. (Inquisitor)
Involvement in what? They are sometimes part of retinues, in The Deathwatch, or in The Grey Knights.
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Post by: Eumerin
DeffDred wrote:Grey Knights are the most notable. They often times are inquisitors turned into astartes. (Index Astartes)
Citations, please. Future Grey Knights are taken at a very young age. They wouldn't have the opportunity to start out as inquisitors before becoming a marine.
And geneseed doesn't implant into a fully matured individual. So even if someone wanted to make an exception for a specific inquisitor, it still wouldn't be possible.
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Post by: Omegus
iproxtaco wrote:That's also proven to be wrong, many Astrartes don't agree with and actively go against the Inquisition, refusing to take order from them, although it's only ever when The Inquisitor tries to order them around like he's the authority, or does something very stupid. they essentially co-exist due to the fact that their goals generally over-lap I'm not even sure they answer to The High Lords.
I would like to see a citation for them "actively" going against the Inquisition (even Logan wasn't able to do much in the face of the Inquisition's decision to crap all over Armaggeddon for example). Yes, they may resist/ignore an order of an Inquisitor (what's t-at, sir? y--r sig-n-l is bre--ing up *click*) if they are acting completely obnoxious or asking for something ridiculous, but that's different from active opposition. More than one chapter has been excommunicated (or declared tratoris blah blah faux latin of choice blah) at an Inquisitor's order.
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Post by: Seaward
Melissia wrote:Kanluwen wrote:The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.
They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity.
Sure they have. You appear to have a tendency to confuse the difference between being aware of the correct tactics for survival and simply not making use of them versus not knowing them in the first place. There are plenty of examples of Space Marines having the opportunity to retreat and survive and choosing not to do so, for a variety of reasons. Honor, symbolism, fatalism, stubbornness. They're archaic, not idiots. I know that perception provides the warm fuzzies when you compare them to the paragons of all that is good and awesome in the form of Sisters of Battle, but it's just nor born up by reality.
Melissia wrote:Quite frankly, and I know this is gonna cause a gakstorm, Space Marines don't have the indomitable willpower that inquisitors do.
I'd say they do. Far as I know, the only folks who haven't had members of their organization give in to Chaos are the Grey Knights. Other chapters have had Astartes fall, the Inquisition's had inquisitors fall...if the test for 'indomitable willpower,' is the ability to push on in the face of overwhelming odds, you're shortchanging the 40K poster boys considerably. Automatically Appended Next Post: Omegus wrote:
Astartes answer to the Lords of Terra, the Emperor's representatives. The Inquisitors also carry the Emperor's authority, so Astartes very much answer to them as well.
That's debatable, and varies from chapter to chapter. Helbrecht, for example, answers to nobody but Helbrecht. And the Lords of Terra don't push the issue.
It's been a long time since I've read any Dark Angels fluff, but I'm fairly sure they've shot an inquisitor or two who was poking around too close for comfort. Inquisitors tend to leave the Astartes alone, and the Astartes tend to do the same. An Inquisitor can request Astartes aid, but I don't recall any examples of them ever outright ordering it for non-Grey Knights chapters.
Cadian Blood's a good example.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
DeffDred wrote:Grey Knights are the most notable. They often times are inquisitors turned into astartes. (Index Astartes)
That is a ridiculous statement, it takes decades for a person to become an inquisitor (from fluff/codex) and that is after they have worked their way up the ranks from helper to apprentice.
A space marine has to be initiated before they are adults (from fluff), so can you tell me how you think your statement makes any sense?
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Post by: iproxtaco
Omegus wrote:iproxtaco wrote:That's also proven to be wrong, many Astrartes don't agree with and actively go against the Inquisition, refusing to take order from them, although it's only ever when The Inquisitor tries to order them around like he's the authority, or does something very stupid. they essentially co-exist due to the fact that their goals generally over-lap I'm not even sure they answer to The High Lords.
I would like to see a citation for them "actively" going against the Inquisition (even Logan wasn't able to do much in the face of the Inquisition's decision to crap all over Armaggeddon for example). Yes, they may resist/ignore an order of an Inquisitor (what's t-at, sir? y--r sig-n-l is bre--ing up *click*) if they are acting completely obnoxious or asking for something ridiculous, but that's different from active opposition. More than one chapter has been excommunicated (or declared tratoris blah blah faux latin of choice blah) at an Inquisitor's order.
Maybe 'actively' isn't a good word, as it implies that they are going out to try and fight the Inquisition. There are examples of Chapters trying to counter the actions or refusing the orders of Inquisitors when they encounter each other, even killing inquisitors who medal too much.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Hrm...
Seaward wrote:
Cadian Blood's a good example.
This is kind of a skewed example. The thing you're missing is that the Inquisitor and the 88th wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the ship without the Raven Guard "having their own agenda".
Or are you forgetting that the Raven Guard's "agenda" was to launch hit and run attacks to piss off the Death Guard and keep them from overwhelming the entry site for the search?
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Post by: DarknessEternal
BluntmanDC wrote:
A space marine has to be initiated before they are adults (from fluff), so can you tell me how you think your statement makes any sense?
That's simply not true. A boy just has a much higher chance to survive Astartes augmentation.
Two examples:
Leman Russ' warriors on Fenris insisted on undergoing the full augmentation procedure despite their advanced age. Many did not survive, some did.
There's a blurb in one of the Chaos Space Marine codecies from the point of view of a soldier in a rebellion. All of the survivors of that battle undergo augmentation. At least he survives to become a full marine.
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Post by: Seaward
Kanluwen wrote:Hrm...
Seaward wrote:
Cadian Blood's a good example.
This is kind of a skewed example. The thing you're missing is that the Inquisitor and the 88th wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the ship without the Raven Guard "having their own agenda".
Or are you forgetting that the Raven Guard's "agenda" was to launch hit and run attacks to piss off the Death Guard and keep them from overwhelming the entry site for the search?
Even so. The boys in black didn't just come out of nowhere at the end of the story. They were around quite a bit before, and pretty clearly not subject to any of the chains of command present - Inquisitorial included.
I fully admit I haven't read every Black Library novel out there, but of the ones I have that included both Space Marines and Inquisitors, I can't recall any non-Grey Knight, non-Deathwatch Marine taking orders from an Inquisitor - nor any Inquisitor giving them orders, for that matter.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
DarknessEternal wrote:BluntmanDC wrote:
A space marine has to be initiated before they are adults (from fluff), so can you tell me how you think your statement makes any sense?
That's simply not true. A boy just has a much higher chance to survive Astartes augmentation.
Two examples:
Leman Russ' warriors on Fenris insisted on undergoing the full augmentation procedure despite their advanced age. Many did not survive, some did.
There's a blurb in one of the Chaos Space Marine codecies from the point of view of a soldier in a rebellion. All of the survivors of that battle undergo augmentation. At least he survives to become a full marine.
Apart from the fact that every other source backs my point and there is a difference between the augmentation process seen in many followers of primarches and the space marine augmentation process. Index Astartes has this clearly written and GW has not superceded this.
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Post by: Melissia
Seaward wrote:Melissia wrote:Kanluwen wrote:The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.
They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity.
Sure they have.
Except that they haven't?
Deathwatch also supports this conclusion. Marines are no more intelligent than the average Inquisitorial acolyte.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Seaward wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Hrm...
Seaward wrote:
Cadian Blood's a good example.
This is kind of a skewed example. The thing you're missing is that the Inquisitor and the 88th wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the ship without the Raven Guard "having their own agenda".
Or are you forgetting that the Raven Guard's "agenda" was to launch hit and run attacks to piss off the Death Guard and keep them from overwhelming the entry site for the search?
Even so. The boys in black didn't just come out of nowhere at the end of the story. They were around quite a bit before, and pretty clearly not subject to any of the chains of command present - Inquisitorial included.
The Inquisition didn't get involved until the halfway point of the novel. The Raven Guard weren't around for the end or even for the majority of the story either. The only part they played/were shown to be in was advising during a planning session with a general who they felt was a pompous arse.
I fully admit I haven't read every Black Library novel out there, but of the ones I have that included both Space Marines and Inquisitors, I can't recall any non-Grey Knight, non-Deathwatch Marine taking orders from an Inquisitor - nor any Inquisitor giving them orders, for that matter.
Eisenhorn gave orders to a Marine during the Helican Disaster and another Marine during the subsequent hunt for one of the loosed Psykers. Neither of them were Grey Knights or Deathwatch. They were from the White Consuls.
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Post by: Melissia
Marines are, in the end, soldiers. If they don't have contradictory orders, they're probably gonna obey the ranking commander on the field, and that's what a talented Inquisitor is. Not all Inquisitors are commanders, some of them are scholars, others warriors, etc. The one thing that binds all Inquisitors is that they have the authority and iron will to protect the Imperium whatever the cost, above all other factions... be they human or Astartes.
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Post by: Seaward
Melissia wrote:Seaward wrote:Melissia wrote:Kanluwen wrote:The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.
They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity.
Sure they have.
Except that they haven't?
You'll need to explain why you feel that way some point.
Deathwatch also supports this conclusion. Marines are no more intelligent than the average Inquisitorial acolyte.
How does Deathwatch support that conclusion? I do so hope you don't mean in terms of the stats. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:Marines are, in the end, soldiers. If they don't have contradictory orders, they're probably gonna obey the ranking commander on the field, and that's what a talented Inquisitor is. Not all Inquisitors are commanders, some of them are scholars, others warriors, etc. The one thing that binds all Inquisitors is that they have the authority and iron will to protect the Imperium whatever the cost, above all other factions... be they human or Astartes.
I thoroughly enjoy how you simply ignored my argument against this. I'm beginning to sense that repetition equals victory in your eyes.
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Post by: Melissia
Yes, stats. But not just stats, also availability of skills and lores. For example, Space Marines don't have access to "Unnatural Intelligence", which doubles the intelligence modifier of the character (Similar to how Marines have Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Strength, which double the toughness and strength modifiers).
Nor do they have access to the Unnatural Willpower or The Indomitable Will of the Inquisition traits.
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Post by: Seaward
Melissia wrote:Yes, stats. But not just stats, also availability of skills and lores. For example, Space Marines don't have access to "Unnatural Intelligence", which doubles the intelligence modifier of the character (Similar to how Marines have Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Strength, which double the toughness and strength modifiers).
Nor do they have access to the Unnatural Willpower or The Indomitable Will of the Inquisition traits.
Do you consider the Dawn of War games to be perfectly canonical in every aspect? I ask because, much like the tabletop RPGs, they're produced under license by a third party. Not that that's the crux of my argument against basing your entire assumption on Deathwatch, of course; that would be the number of fluff/stats contradictions one can point out in 40K rules alone. Lil' thing called game mechanics trumping everything else.
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Post by: Melissia
Seaward wrote:Melissia wrote:Yes, stats. But not just stats, also availability of skills and lores. For example, Space Marines don't have access to "Unnatural Intelligence", which doubles the intelligence modifier of the character (Similar to how Marines have Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Strength, which double the toughness and strength modifiers).
Nor do they have access to the Unnatural Willpower or The Indomitable Will of the Inquisition traits.
Do you consider the Dawn of War games to be perfectly canonical in every aspect? I ask because, much like the tabletop RPGs, they're produced under license by a third party.
Actually Dark Heresy was produced by GW and then taken over by FFG. GW also constantly sends its writers over to write fluff for Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch. The RPGs aren't a perfect example, as they are balanced of course (better than tabletop 40k anyway, there's still much grumblings on about the Arbites tree and a few other things), but they do show what I was saying, along with the fact that there's no actual biological reason why Marines would be smarter.
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Post by: Omegus
In the Horus Heresy books, I believe eidetic memory is mentioned several times as a boon of the augmentation process, although I don't recall if it was exclusive to the Thousand Sons
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Post by: Seaward
Omegus wrote:In the Horus Heresy books, I believe eidetic memory is mentioned several times as a boon of the augmentation process, although I don't recall if it was exclusive to the Thousand Sons
Memory is different from intelligence, but it doesn't matter. We've descended to trying to use third-party game stats to prove a point; we may as well start quoting the collected works of C.S. Goto.
Biases are always going to trump, so it's a useless argument.
As to the original question, no, it's not possible for a Space Marine to become an inquisitor in any meaningful sense - and if they did, they certainly wouldn't be leading a chapter of Marines around, at least not as part of that chapter.
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Post by: Melissia
Indeed. It's also a common trait of adepts/scholars (in 40k, it's something that can be trained, possibly through the same methods used to produce it in Astartes) and a trait that basically all Adeptus Mechanicus Techpriests have. Automatically Appended Next Post: Seaward wrote:Omegus wrote:In the Horus Heresy books, I believe eidetic memory is mentioned several times as a boon of the augmentation process, although I don't recall if it was exclusive to the Thousand Sons
Memory is different from intelligence, but it doesn't matter. We've descended to trying to use third-party game stats to prove a point; we may as well start quoting the collected works of C.S. Goto.
Dark Heresy is FAR more accurate than Goto. Actually, Dark Heresy / Deathwatch gives a far more flattering view of Marines than Goto's Dawn of War series. Goto treats Marines like forgetful retards who don't have enough strength to overpower a spore mine. Deathwatch depicts them as highly skilled and trained supersoldiers capable of incredible feats of heroism.
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Post by: Seaward
Melissia wrote:Dark Heresy is FAR more accurate than Goto.
Oh? I wasn't aware GW had put one above the other in terms of accuracy.
Pretty sure they haven't, come to think of it. I'll ask my question again: Do you consider the Dawn of War games to be perfectly canonical in every aspect?
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Post by: Melissia
I don't have to answer that, because Dark Heresy was originally worked on by GW itself, and consistently sends writers to work on its supplements. The lore within Dark Heresy is GW lore, through and through.
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Post by: purplefood
Lets just say no the the OP...
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Post by: Seaward
Melissia wrote:I don't have to answer that, because Dark Heresy was originally worked on by GW itself, and consistently sends writers to work on its supplements. The lore within Dark Heresy is GW lore, through and through.
So's the lore in Goto novels, inasmuch as Abnett's is.
Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the fluff contradicts itself all the time, and that everyone's personal opinion on anything is just that?
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Post by: Melissia
Seaward wrote:Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the fluff contradicts itself all the time, and that everyone's personal opinion on anything is just that?
No, I have no intention of holding on to the believe that you have that all fluff is considered equal. Yes, everyone has an opinion. This is mine. Saying "omg tahts juts ur opnion" is nonsensical . No gak it's mine. Do you have a point?
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Post by: Seaward
Melissia wrote:Seaward wrote:Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the fluff contradicts itself all the time, and that everyone's personal opinion on anything is just that?
No, I have no intention of holding on to the believe that you have that all fluff is considered equal.
Yes, everyone has an opinion. This is mine.
My point was, specifically, that all fluff isn't equal.
It was also mild amusement at your habit of disregarding the GW sources that don't support your opinion in favor of the ones that do.
Edit: And to answer the edited sentiment...stop presenting your opinion as fact. It ain't. Wishing doesn't make it so.
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Post by: Melissia
Seaward wrote:Edit: And to answer the edited sentiment...stop presenting your opinion as fact. It ain't. Wishing doesn't make it so.
The fact that you interpret stated opinions as fact is your failure. This is an internet forum. The unstated words before every post is "in my opinion". Some opinions are better sourced than others, some are correct but are unsourced, some are incorrect but have sources, some are completely nonsensical and irrelevant to everything in the discussion. You, personally, will value each opinion differently depending on your own point of view. I shouldn't have to copy and paste "in my opinion" into every single post I make. So you say "that's just your opinion", and I respond "no gak captain Sherlock McObviouspants" and have a good laugh. Because yes indeed, that is what my posts are. I'm glad you noticed!
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Post by: Seaward
Melissia wrote:Seaward wrote:Edit: And to answer the edited sentiment...stop presenting your opinion as fact. It ain't. Wishing doesn't make it so.
The fact that you interpret stated opinions as fact is your failure.
This is an internet forum. The unstated words before every post is "in my opinion". Some opinions are better sourced than others, some are correct but are unsourced, some are incorrect but have sources, some are completely nonsensical and irrelevant to everything in the discussion. You, personally, will value each opinion differently depending on your own point of view.
I shouldn't have to copy and paste "in my opinion" into every single post I make. So you say "that's just your opinion", and I respond "no gak captain Sherlock McObviouspants" and have a good laugh. Because yes indeed, that is what my posts are. I'm glad you noticed!
I'm glad we're in agreement that your assertions are worth no more than anyone else's. For a while there, you seemed to be taking yourself awfully seriously about highly trivial things.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
BluntmanDC wrote:DarknessEternal wrote:BluntmanDC wrote:
A space marine has to be initiated before they are adults (from fluff), so can you tell me how you think your statement makes any sense?
That's simply not true. A boy just has a much higher chance to survive Astartes augmentation.
Two examples:
Leman Russ' warriors on Fenris insisted on undergoing the full augmentation procedure despite their advanced age. Many did not survive, some did.
There's a blurb in one of the Chaos Space Marine codecies from the point of view of a soldier in a rebellion. All of the survivors of that battle undergo augmentation. At least he survives to become a full marine.
Apart from the fact that every other source backs my point
No, every other source does not. Those were just two examples. There are many more. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:
Deathwatch also supports this conclusion. Marines are no more intelligent than the average Inquisitorial acolyte.
Marines are 10 points smarter in those two systems at the start.
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Post by: Lobokai
Melissia wrote:
I shouldn't have to copy and paste "in my opinion" into every single post I make. So you say "that's just your opinion", and I respond "no gak captain Sherlock McObviouspants" and have a good laugh. Because yes indeed, that is what my posts are. I'm glad you noticed!
Boy, if only they hand a short hand way to show something was In My Opinion on forums... then people would be expected to actually use it.
Melissa, I lurk way more than I post, and you have a nasty habit of calling out any BL fluff as poorly written, or overstated... and even whine about plot armor in GW codices as being unrealistic and therefore ignorable. And then turn around and cite whatever you want as being canonical because some out of house company published it. You can't have it both ways (or if you keep trying, you increase the chances of people ignoring you ( IMO) ).
I think its very clear that BL stuff operates with different rule systems and universal truths than WH40k the TT game and neither of them perfectly jive with the RPG.
Just look at all the effects that an SM captain with a command squad (or a lone commissar) has on a battle field in BL stuff... then compare that to the WH40k battlefield. Clearly not the same effects are typically noticed ( IMHO).
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Post by: Melissia
Lobukia wrote:Boy, if only they hand a short hand way to show something was In My Opinion on forums... then people would be expected to actually use it.
Oh please, I'm not going to say IMO every time I post. That would be stupid. DarknessEternal wrote:Marines are 10 points smarter in those two systems at the start.
Not really. The Marines of Deathwatch are veterans with several thousand experience point to start off with. Effectively, they basically have already purchased two advances in most of their stats over a human. Hell, this is actually pretty accurate, considering they only have four advances compared to a human having six... the human's being cheaper for their initial advances I should note. Humans start out at 0 XP, the Deathwatch Marines are veterans, and start out at 13,000. By the time humans get up to 13,000 xp, most classes can easily exceed the stats that Deathwatch marines have except for strength and toughness. And have more talents and skills to boot to suit their given roles (an Adept being a fountain of knowledge and logic, for example). But the Deathwatch have superior biology and equipment. The Inquisition makes use of both, because both are very useful. Which is, you know, pretty accurate to the lore.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
purplefood wrote:Lets just say no the the OP...
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Post by: Eumerin
Seaward wrote:So's the lore in Goto novels, inasmuch as Abnett's is.
Are you *seriously* discussing whether or not Goto should be considered lore? Or even the equivalent of other sources?
/facepalm
On another note...
Despite the rather detailed list of modifications that go into a space marine, there haven't yet been any that mentioned an increase in intelligence. Given that we even know they can spit acid and eat the flesh of their enemies to gain information, the lack of mention of boosted intelligence seems rather telling.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Tis true. There's no brain boosting implant that I know of. Memory is different than intelligence. They also has astounding powers of focus and concentration but this is most likely from living like Buddhist monks more than anything.
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Post by: tarnish
Seaward wrote:Melissia wrote:I don't have to answer that, because Dark Heresy was originally worked on by GW itself, and consistently sends writers to work on its supplements. The lore within Dark Heresy is GW lore, through and through.
So's the lore in Goto novels, inasmuch as Abnett's is.
Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the fluff contradicts itself all the time, and that everyone's personal opinion on anything is just that?
A kindred soul! i agree sir, 100%!
As for marine intelligence id like to point out that there are many kinds of intellect, some of which are hard to rate or meassure. Im sure, that the marines can be considered smarter considering that emotions rarely cloud their judgement and that they dont develop insanities at the same rate as your typical guardsman.
Besides, its all relative... i know the reference is wierd but superman is often described as a genius in the comics yet manages to get outsmarted by idiots all the time.
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Post by: Seaward
Eumerin wrote:Seaward wrote:So's the lore in Goto novels, inasmuch as Abnett's is.
Are you *seriously* discussing whether or not Goto should be considered lore? Or even the equivalent of other sources?
/facepalm
Nah. I was pointing out that GW slaps their seal on all sorts of worthless crap, and it's up to the end user to determine which is authoritative and which isn't. I, for instance, don't think someone's Mary Sue tabletop RPG inquisitor retinue character or whatever having higher intelligence than a Marine is definitive proof that inquisitors are smarter than Marines, but that's me.
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Post by: Omegus
Seaward wrote:I'm glad we're in agreement that your assertions are worth no more than anyone else's. For a while there, you seemed to be taking yourself awfully seriously about highly trivial things.
Oh snap!
Wait... let me consult the chart to make sure I'm using that correctly.
Let's see... yes... carry the one... okay! Everything seems in order. The "Oh snap!" stands. 
That said, I have no doubt the average Inquisitor is far more intelligent than the average Astartes, if only by virtue of their upbringing. The Inquisitors usually start off with "normal" human lives, go through rigorous education that goes beyond, "Anoint thy bolter and shooteth the heretic in the gonads" on all sorts of subjects, and are expected to interact with a far wider assortment of individuals in the course of their day to day work (again, beyond just meeting interesting people, and perforating them with mass-reactive rounds).
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Post by: Melissia
Inquisitors are also expected to know far, FAR more about the galaxy than Space Marines are as well, enough to shatter most people's worldviews, and quite easily enough to cause Marinse to turn to Chaos (Emperor knows they've turned to Chaos for far more petty reasons).
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Post by: GazzyG
tarnish wrote:
Besides, its all relative... i know the reference is wierd but superman is often described as a genius in the comics yet manages to get outsmarted by idiots all the time.
Very true!
He's described as a genius because he can understand and solve any maths or physics related problem in a second, he can speak any language and he can build incredible machines.
However, all this genius does not make him the best at tactics or politics.
I imagine it's the same with Marines; they've got incredible memories, can learn languages quickly and pick up any task as though born to it. And, of course, the have a very sound grasp of on the move tactics (as anyone would with 300+ years of experience).
But this doesn't automatically translate well to other areas of intelligence.
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Post by: Eumerin
Seaward wrote:Nah. I was pointing out that GW slaps their seal on all sorts of worthless crap, and it's up to the end user to determine which is authoritative and which isn't. I, for instance, don't think someone's Mary Sue tabletop RPG inquisitor retinue character or whatever having higher intelligence than a Marine is definitive proof that inquisitors are smarter than Marines, but that's me.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. The impression I got was that Melissia was largely using RPG stats in general and for the most part not referencing her adept specifically. She mentioned her adept early on, but the mentions since then have mostly been generalized and referencing the Dark Heresy/Deathwatch systems as a whole.
And no offense, but in this instance we're pretty much reduced to looking at whether marines have a "super smarty" gland. And since even that doesn't appear to be helping to settle things (they don't have such a gland, but tarnish is already arguing that it's irrelevant more or less "just because"). the only other thing that you really have to fall back on for any kind of evidence is stats in an RPG that was developed by GW (and then subsequently handed off to FFG).
If you've got something better, then by all means lets see it.
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Post by: Melissia
As for my Adept, she most assuredly wasn't mary sue. Her fellowship was about a 5 or 10 out of 100 (because she was a Blank, and therefor had notoriously and hilariously bad fellowship, as all Blanks do). She couldn't sweet talk her way out of bumping into someone in a hallway that was in a reasonably good mood, nevermind someone important.
Dark Heresy is fun like that. The only way to get ridiculously high stats in any of FFG's games is to focus on that stat and forego either the other stats or skills/talents in your tree. You never have enough XP, and your character is never good enough for the job. You just have to work with what you have.
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Post by: Psienesis
Melissa wrote:Dark Heresy is fun like that. The only way to get ridiculously high stats in any of FFG's games is to focus on that stat and forego either the other stats or skills/talents in your tree. You never have enough XP, and your character is never good enough for the job. You just have to work with what you have.
Many are called, most are found wanting.
DH classes are designed to be that way: their range, depth and breadth of skills ensure that two players, both making characters of the same class, will create radically different, individual characters with different skills, strengths, weaknesses and applications.
@ OP: To answer your question... no. Space Marines may serve the Inquisition, but they cannot become Inquisitors.
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Post by: Melissia
Which is roughly equivalent to how things work out in real life. Not exactly so, but then, that's why you have elite advances and class replacement packages.
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Post by: MendedDragon
@ OP: No.
@The SM Intelligence debate: I don't remember reading anything about Intelligence Super-Implants included in the paackage, fluff and codex wise, so, in my honest **GUESS**, I think SM intelligence varies from every marine. Just like humans. But there's probably some standards for recruitment
They probably get smarter over their years of service, too.
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Post by: Malivon
Agent_Tremolo said
An Astartes is a terrible thing to waste. Few and not easily replaced, I seriously doubt their chapter would let their finest go, even if it`s the Inquisition who's calling.
Really, Astartes are bioengineered supersoldiers, literally bred for combat. Even if some individual marines know better about daemons and heretics than your average inquisitor, their place is in the battlefield, not doing police work that, important as it may be, could be carried out by ordinary, unmodified humans.
Agreed out of 1000 applicants 1 will become a full fledged battlebrother. With GK I think its 1 of 100000000000 I think correct me if I am wrong please.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
MendedDragon wrote:
@The SM Intelligence debate: I don't remember reading anything about Intelligence Super-Implants included in the paackage, fluff and codex wise, so, in my honest **GUESS**, I think SM intelligence varies from every marine. Just like humans.
Heresy-era marines sure seem to think they had modified intellectual capabilities, so sayeth the HH series.
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Post by: MendedDragon
DarknessEternal wrote:MendedDragon wrote:
@The SM Intelligence debate: I don't remember reading anything about Intelligence Super-Implants included in the paackage, fluff and codex wise, so, in my honest **GUESS**, I think SM intelligence varies from every marine. Just like humans.
Heresy-era marines sure seem to think they had modified intellectual capabilities, so sayeth the HH series.
Eh, I was about to read that next, after I got done with Guant's Ghosts. I was making a guess for Post-Heresy, please pardon
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Post by: Toastedandy
Space marines are bred for war, they are warriors. All their training and ideology focus around one thing, how to kill the guy over there before he can kill you.
They know no fear, they know no pity, they know no remorse. They are arrogant recluses who move from battlefield too battlefield waiting to die gloriously in the name of a corpse god.
They know nothing outside their world of perpetual warfare.
A space marine becoming a inquisitor wont happen, they do not know how to be one. They know nothing else but war and death. An inquisitor has to be cunning, they have to outsmart the greatest threats that face the Imperium on a daily basis.
Anyway, inquisitors greatest weapon is being unknown, that spreads fear and respect far more effectively then a gun. A 7 foot tall super warrior would stand out a bit too much.
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Post by: Melissia
Malivon wrote:Agent_Tremolo said
An Astartes is a terrible thing to waste. Few and not easily replaced, I seriously doubt their chapter would let their finest go, even if it`s the Inquisition who's calling.
Really, Astartes are bioengineered supersoldiers, literally bred for combat. Even if some individual marines know better about daemons and heretics than your average inquisitor, their place is in the battlefield, not doing police work that, important as it may be, could be carried out by ordinary, unmodified humans. .
Inquisitors are anything but "ordinary" humans. Unmodified, sometimes, but by no means "ordinary".
Indeed, individual Inquisitors are more unique,special, and overall capable than individual Astartes in every area but war.
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Post by: purplefood
Can we not just go with no already?
If you want to do it for fluff it reeks of Mary Sue which is never a nice thing to in a story 40k or otherwise.
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Post by: Omegus
Melissia wrote:Indeed, individual Inquisitors are more unique,special, and overall capable than individual Astartes in every area but war.
And given the right amount of credits, could be physically enhanced to be the equal of an Astartes. They won't have the centuries of experience in open warfare, but I'm sure there is an Inquisitor or two out there who could beat an Astartes at arm-wrestling.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
purplefood wrote:Can we not just go with no already?
If a half-eldar, astropath can be an honorary Ultramarine, the sky's the limit.
This setting goes to 11.
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Post by: Toastedandy
DarknessEternal wrote:
This setting goes to 11.
Does that mean its louder?
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Post by: Melissia
But doesn't mean it's better composed. Automatically Appended Next Post: Omegus wrote:Melissia wrote:Indeed, individual Inquisitors are more unique,special, and overall capable than individual Astartes in every area but war.
And given the right amount of credits, could be physically enhanced to be the equal of an Astartes. They won't have the centuries of experience in open warfare, but I'm sure there is an Inquisitor or two out there who could beat an Astartes at arm-wrestling.
I think it was Eisenhorn who used an Astartes bolt pistol effortlessly, WITHOUT power armor, was it? he'd probably be a good example.
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Post by: DanteMortem
I was expecting better of dakka 
You're seriously arguing about GW seal of aproval?
I mean if so then all marine chapters want to be Ultramarines.And their chaptermaster god is stronger/better/smarter than any inquisitor ever will be.
And I don't agree with pointing out differing stats=fluff.(Gameplay ballance>Story)
Yeah...not the best intro from me but I kinda was expecting these types of arguments to be shorter.
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Post by: purplefood
Yeah we are... or they are.
What is an isn't canon can be a big issue in certain things...
Admittedly not a massive issue but go figure...
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Post by: Magtherion_Soulsaver
Anything is possible, it is a matter of probability.
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Post by: King Pariah
Not sure but hope this link helps with this question. and if anyone else has already pointed this out, I apologize, I just don't feel like going through 6 pages of stuff.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1140003&prodId=prod1140029a
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Post by: Kanluwen
What is this supposed to help?
The reason it's labeled "Grey Knights Inquisitor" is because the codex is titled "Grey Knights" and it's an Inquisitor, which is a unit entry within the book.
The Imperial Guard have an "Imperial Guard Valkyrie" in their army section. The Valkyrie is, in fact, operated by the Imperial Navy.
Seeing why that particular link doesn't actually help the question now?
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Post by: King Pariah
idk but that looks like a grey knight who is also an inquisitor, and aren't GK SM? I'm pretty new to 40k anyways, just started late last November and was in the hospital for 2 and a half months after that. So this thread is also teaching me things as well.
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Post by: Kanluwen
King Pariah wrote:idk but that looks like a grey knight who is also an inquisitor, and aren't GK SM?
It's not. That model was released under the Daemonhunters line, where it was simply an Inquisitor. There were 3 others(Coteaz, an Inquisitor with a boltgun in one hand a book in the other, and then a combi-weapon and sword) that were also released with this line.
The problem is that they rebranded the book as 'Grey Knights' now, so there's some stuff that's been labeled with the title so it's easy to find in searches.
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Post by: King Pariah
Okay, thanks
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Post by: Melissia
Though they did feth things around a bit with Ssiters of Battle and Witch Hunters... then again, that part of the site is so poorly maintained that you can practically see the dust.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Yeah, but more importantly Melissia: the standard Kasrkin trooper models have become available by themselves! Yay!
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Post by: iproxtaco
DanteMortem wrote:I was expecting better of dakka
You're seriously arguing about GW seal of aproval?
I mean if so then all marine chapters want to be Ultramarines.And their chaptermaster god is stronger/better/smarter than any inquisitor ever will be.
And I don't agree with pointing out differing stats=fluff.(Gameplay ballance>Story)
Yeah...not the best intro from me but I kinda was expecting these types of arguments to be shorter.
Welcome to Dakka, but seriously, what? I don't understand.
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