In my imperial guard army i keep getting taken down by my friend who has marines and goes from combat to combat with his troops by consolidating and he then runs to the next units and i cannot take the assault marines or even normal marines out if they get into combat are they any good IG combat troops i was maybe thinking about rough riders anyone else got any better ideas.

If I'm reading this right then your friend is playing wrong. In 5th ed you can not consolidate into another CC like you could in older editions.

Large explosions take out marines. I don't play guard, and there's so many different types of tanks I can never remember them all, I just know that when a guard tank points it's guns at my PA dudes stuff disapears. Guard are easily the best army in the game right now.

He just beat me today by doing this so i guess if he cannot consolidate into my troops i will now win a lot more often. Also i do blast them off the field but he always gets them into combat then says you cannot shoot his units but now i guess i can thanks for the info.


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Not shoot his unit's while in combat but between combats i badly worded that.

Ok.. in lamen's terms,he's cheating. In 5th, if he wins a combat, he can consolidate up to one inch away from the next unit. This is changed from 3rd edition, where one squad could steamroll an entire army.

As a guard player, you might have to sacrifice a squad here or there, but if he plays right, you can use it to your advantage. Shoot the crap out of him on your turn and wittle him down while he's forced to stand there in the open. Try veteran squads with melta or plasma, in chimeras or valks/vendettas. bs. 4 with lots of power. Add shotguns and presto!

Maybe a couple of 5 man stormtrooper squads with meltaguns will help you dismantle his face. They re roll the deepstrike scatter dice, have bs.4, and only cost 105 points. great tank killers.

Timing is key. get him to finish off your bait squads in his close combat phase, and you'll be free to pile drive him during your shooting phase.

Thankx for the advice.

As for "good" CC troops: Platoons.

Blob your squads(make use of the Combined squads rules), have at least 1 Commissar, Add a power sword to every Sgt and your Commissar(s). re-rollable Ld 9 no matter how badly you lose the combat and 3 PW attacks per Sgt/Commissar. Also do not be afraid to charge particularly nasty CC troops that are too-close to you to begin with.

Yesterday I had a battle against an almost all Deepstriking BA force, I charged both the Assault marine squad that dropped down right next to my Anti-infantry guns Blob, and the Sanguinary guard(with Dante) that dropped down next to my Anti-tank Blob(both on the same turn) I still lost my entire anti-tank Blob(19 men) but killed dante and a few Sang Guard in the 2 combats that followed, allowing me to hit the remaining 2 Sangs with a Bassilisk shot at near Point-blank range. I killed all of the Assault marines in the next round and still had much of my unit left(although they got assaulted by THSS termies). At the end of the game I tabled my opponent and still had 2 full units of vets, and every vehicle without having taken any damage.

Kommissar Kel wrote:allowing me to hit the remaining 2 Sangs with a Bassilisk shot at near Point-blank range.

You know if i tried a shot like that, it just would have scattered right back into me!

i also agree that blobs are the best "combat troops" the IG has.

Get a 50 man blob, run it into an assualt squad on turn 2 or 3 and you tie them up for the rest of the game. There is no possible way for an assault squad to kill 50 men in 3 or 4 rounds without being destroyed themselves.

Once a squad gets sucked into the mire of combat that is your blob, count it as worthless.

-cgmckenzie

yup, infantry squads using combined squads to huddle around a commissar where everyone who can take one gets a power weapon SHREDS regular tac squads in close combat.

The secondary benefit to power blobs is that you don't need to charge (as you kill over time, not all up front), which means that as the marines get close, you can step forward into 12" and then FRF them. The remnants of massed lasgun fire can't possibly compete with how many power weapon attacks you're putting down over time, no matter how crappy any individual attack is.

That and if you really want to give him a surprise, take rough riders. 24" threat range with something that piles on S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is hella sassy.

Rough riders are also very very cheap for what they do and most likely always get their points back. I had good results with the platoon special weapon teams, I had 2 with 3 flamers each take out a khorne berserker squad that.

alarmingrick wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:allowing me to hit the remaining 2 Sangs with a Bassilisk shot at near Point-blank range.

You know if i tried a shot like that, it just would have scattered right back into me!

i also agree that blobs are the best "combat troops" the IG has.

My opponent and I both fully expected it to; I figured I was already winning at this point in the game and If I had gotten an explodes result the Executioner on the other side of the Basilisk could have pumped some plasma into those Sang guard.

I am also fairly lucky with getting hits or low Scatters(read still hits, or sometimes covering more models than a hit), so I tend to go for the nearly suicidal shots.

cgmckenzie wrote:Get a 50 man blob, run it into an assualt squad on turn 2 or 3 and you tie them up for the rest of the game. There is no possible way for an assault squad to kill 50 men in 3 or 4 rounds without being destroyed themselves.

Once a squad gets sucked into the mire of combat that is your blob, count it as worthless.

-cgmckenzie

*sigh* Every time someone makes a good suggestion, someone else jumps in with the most extreme and ridiculous example of that suggestion. A 50-man blob is ludicrous. Incredibly expensive, difficult to maneuver (good luck getting your vehicles around that, or if even one model touches terrain all 50 have to roll), and complete and utter overkill against most targets... that is if you can actually get them all in combat against small units. Not to mention your opponent can just throw that same small unit at the corner of this blob and draw the whole thing away, leaving the rest of your army exposed. Two squads combined offer more than enough tarpit for most targets until you can shoot them with something, while taking a few of the enemies along with them. If you come across something nasty requiring more guardsmen, you can throw two or even three blobs at them. But putting all your eggs in one giant basket is silly at best, disastrous at worst.

Seriously folks, hyperbole is hilarious and everything, but there's no place for it when answering a genuine question.

"What IG tanks are good?"
"Leman Russ can be useful."
"Yeah! Leman Russ, take 3 squadrons of 3 with all the upgrades! BLERGHEGARBLE! /mouthfroth"

I actually do run 50 man blobs. That wasn't hyperbole or stretching the truth in the slightest. The blob handles almost all the infantry problems by either shooting them or miring them forever while my heavy support and HWT kill things.

Works great for me, mainly cause nobody is expecting to face that.

-cgmckenzie

I use 30 man blobs with a commissar with hidden powerfist, a medic, and 3 plasma guns. I play them as three 10 man squads I keep w/in 2" of each other (I use wooden movement trays if the opponent doesn't mind).

The medic helps vs. overheating and feel no pain. People complain they are like necrons lol. I use two squads like this with flamer platoon command squads in chimeras to give them 1st rank, 2nd rank.

Crazed Dog wrote:I use 30 man blobs with a commissar with hidden powerfist, a medic, and 3 plasma guns. I play them as three 10 man squads I keep w/in 2" of each other (I use wooden movement trays if the opponent doesn't mind).

The medic helps vs. overheating and feel no pain. People complain they are like necrons lol. I use two squads like this with flamer platoon command squads in chimeras to give them 1st rank, 2nd rank.

What on earth? You are using a 30-man blob as 3 seperate squads? You have powerfists and medics in infantry squads?

Selafyne wrote:In my imperial guard army i keep getting taken down by my friend who has marines and goes from combat to combat with his troops by consolidating and he then runs to the next units and i cannot take the assault marines or even normal marines out if they get into combat are they any good IG combat troops i was maybe thinking about rough riders anyone else got any better ideas.

Grammar...processor...failing...punctuation...needed...

And yes your "friend" is cheating by playing by the older rules without your knowledge.

Blob squads are probably the most difficult thing to learn how to play/play against. Now I play with lash so its not that big of a deal. They can be quite a good to tarpit units for turns upon turns. Considering the fact that the majority of IG are S3 and T3, throwing 30+ guys into one combat is probably your best bet. The only thing I don't like about them is that they're foot slogging, but if it isn't broken don't fix it. Wait...50?! now thats broken (jk)

Lets us know how it turns when played by the rules.


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cgmckenzie wrote:I actually do run 50 man blobs. That wasn't hyperbole or stretching the truth in the slightest. The blob handles almost all the infantry problems by either shooting them or miring them forever while my heavy support and HWT kill things.

Works great for me, mainly cause nobody is expecting to face that.

-cgmckenzie

Cool avatar btw!

I figured the Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla would be a good fit for me, what with the running insanely large groups of less than stellar combat skills in really cool armor. Glad somebody likes it!

I just ran a 1000 pt game against SW with a 30 man blob and did surpassingly well. I destroyed a bike squad after shooting and assault, a tac squad and a half before breaking combat and running. Next shooting phase, my basilisk and LRBT cleaned up and I tabled my opponent on turn 3.

I think I finally have this blob thing working...

-Lord Humongous

Sidenote - If you attach a commisar to one of these units, give him a PW or PF, do you use him in the combats? I don't have the codex on me, but isn't he an IC? Cause in that case, just pop him and there goes your advantage. Am i right? idk

No. He is not an independent character.

I thought a regular Commisar can not have a PF [not lazy at work with no codex ].

You would therefore need a Preist in the power blob to get PF effects plus other benefits. Not sure if he is a IC though?

I've not done this yet but after having tarpitted a DP or two recently with a 21 man Powerblob and having a great difficulty doing anything in return I have started to consider this. Re-rolable S6 PW attacks should do othe trick - Waddaya think fellers?

Infantry-squad Commissars cannot take power fists, unless you're running the Death Korps of Krieg list.

The Priest is indeed an IC, which is one of his biggest flaws.

I am going to convert some rough riders from empire pistoleers as you guys recommended and i might put some pics on of my conversions if you guys want to see. I might put two plasma guys in the rough rider squad to take down marines especially. And i have bought some more guardsmen to use as a distraction and protection from combat and if he is not cheating then i will equip them with plasma guns as well.

I am actually planning a similar conversion! Probably pistoleers cause they are the cheapest 5 cavalry unit money wise and I don't want my guard to be running around in plate mail! That would look silly...

-cgmckenzie

Yeah i know i am going to use stuff from the tank accessory sprue to look like packs on the models and might put voxcasters on all as they look good like out riders need to call into base to warn of advancing troops.

Ooh, good idea! I was going to get rid of all the bits I have that have imperial aquila on them but vox casters seems like a much easier solution.

-cgmckenzie

Selafyne wrote:I am going to convert some rough riders from empire pistoleers as you guys recommended and i might put some pics on of my conversions if you guys want to see. I might put two plasma guys in the rough rider squad to take down marines especially. And i have bought some more guardsmen to use as a distraction and protection from combat and if he is not cheating then i will equip them with plasma guns as well.

Giving them anything but Lances is a waste of points, IMHO. they're designed to hit really hard and then die horridly, but hopefully with great honor.

Crazed Dog wrote:I use 30 man blobs with a commissar with hidden powerfist, a medic, and 3 plasma guns. I play them as three 10 man squads I keep w/in 2" of each other (I use wooden movement trays if the opponent doesn't mind).

The medic helps vs. overheating and feel no pain. People complain they are like necrons lol. I use two squads like this with flamer platoon command squads in chimeras to give them 1st rank, 2nd rank.

So. Much. Wrong.

1) 3 10-man units is not a 30 man blob; not unless they are combined(as that is what a Blob is, combined squads)

2) Blobs cannot have hidden p-fists; only PCS Commissars even have access to P-fists, and PCSs cannot Combine(only Platoon infantry squads can combine).

3) Blobs cannot have Medics, again only PCS have the medi-pack upgrade available.

Note on #1: It seems you are saying you have 3 10-man movement trays that you keep within 2" and therefore are using the 3 trays simply for ease of movement, and that you are in fact using the 3 squads as a single blob unit. If so this is correct, but the other 2 points do remain valid as just plain wrong.

Unless he's talking about DKoK. They can have hidden powerfists, and have an HQ with servitors that grant FNP to everyone within a certain range.

I use Ogryns on Marines. And they make them cry.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Crazed Dog wrote:I use 30 man blobs with a commissar with hidden powerfist, a medic, and 3 plasma guns. I play them as three 10 man squads I keep w/in 2" of each other (I use wooden movement trays if the opponent doesn't mind).

The medic helps vs. overheating and feel no pain. People complain they are like necrons lol. I use two squads like this with flamer platoon command squads in chimeras to give them 1st rank, 2nd rank.

So. Much. Wrong.

1) 3 10-man units is not a 30 man blob; not unless they are combined(as that is what a Blob is, combined squads)

2) Blobs cannot have hidden p-fists; only PCS Commissars even have access to P-fists, and PCSs cannot Combine(only Platoon infantry squads can combine).

3) Blobs cannot have Medics, again only PCS have the medi-pack upgrade available.

Note on #1: It seems you are saying you have 3 10-man movement trays that you keep within 2" and therefore are using the 3 trays simply for ease of movement, and that you are in fact using the 3 squads as a single blob unit. If so this is correct, but the other 2 points do remain valid as just plain wrong.

I ran a 30 man blob with a Lord Commisar P.fist and 3 sgt p.weapons.

Hulksmash wrote:I use Ogryns on Marines. And they make them cry.

Why would you want the ogryns to cry? Seems counterproductive to me...

-cgmckenzie

So just a question if i put a PCS in a blob with an infantry squad they both don't get FNP from the medic in the PCS.

Ogryns come as a shock to any marine player S5, T5 and 3 wounds, most marine units will have a hell of a time killing them.

Also, plasma vets in chimeras and tanks, any kind of tank with AP3 or less main gun will give him hell.

Yeah plasma gunners are currently my primary way to kill marines i put them in a kasrkin squad and deep strike in to cause havoc as the whole squad is ap3 to get past the marines save.

Ogrins are also quite nasty if you use them right.

I would suggest stormtroopers. Not for the combat but simply because as a guard player you have to sacrifice things. Let your guardsmen squads take the charge, then they will die but... behind them is a 10 man squad of stormtroopers. So that is 20 rapid fire shots from the hotshot lasguns. At AP3 that means most marines are dead in my opinion.

When i play guard im always prepared to make sarifices. Guard cannot hold off both flanks at once as their strength comes from numbers and they do not have the elite units to hold a flank on their own. You have to let one of your flanks die whilst shooting everything at the other flank, yes that means you the flank but you have killed you opponents entire other flank. Most players then split their forces to take the flank back so you just concentrate fire on the other flank now which is weaker. As a guard player you have to concentrate fire. Fire everything at the assaulting unit and kill it completely. The rest of his army should get bogged down for a few turns in yoru guard blobs whilst your tanks and elites slowly take out his assault units one by one.

Selafyne wrote:So just a question if i put a PCS in a blob with an infantry squad they both don't get FNP from the medic in the PCS.

You can't combine a PCS with an infantry squad. The PCS stays a separate unit, which makes the medic upgrade enormously foolish for them. Really, the upgrade as a whole is either overpriced, or should be an advisor for the CCS rather than an upgrade for one of the veterans. We'd see a lot more of them if you could still stick 4 plasmaguns and a pistol into the unit.


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The Acolyte wrote:Ogrins are also quite nasty if you use them right.

I would suggest stormtroopers. Not for the combat but simply because as a guard player you have to sacrifice things. Let your guardsmen squads take the charge, then they will die but... behind them is a 10 man squad of stormtroopers. So that is 20 rapid fire shots from the hotshot lasguns. At AP3 that means most marines are dead in my opinion.

Sadly, your opinion isn't supported by the facts. S3 will mean you won't kill that many marines (average 4-5 wounds for 20 shots), and even if you do, that Stormtrooper unit is now in the open and dead dead dead. Considering you cost the same (or more!) than the Space marines, but are way easier to kill, this is a very bad trade.

Can someone please clarify what a blob is exactly?

But yeah, I would say use melta squads, as mentioned someone on page one.

blob is just combined infantry squads. There is very little formation in them, they just blob their way across the battlefield.

-cgmckenzie

Blob squad is 2 or more infantry squads merged together using "combined squads" special rule. Adding commisar makes them re-roll stubborn. Commisar and sgts have power weapons. So now you have single organism, taht has 9+ pw attacks and 21+ wounds which stays in combat to the last drop of blood.

Thank you so much, I am def using that next time I play. Time to look into combined squads

Selafyne wrote:So just a question if i put a PCS in a blob with an infantry squad they both don't get FNP from the medic in the PCS.

PCS don't have the "combined squad" special rule. It's clearly listed in the "infantry squad" entry.

I agree with all the suggestions.PW Blobs will suck the life out of SM/MEQ,suicide Rough Riders with Hunting Lances are great and my particular favourite,Ogryns in a Chimera,roll up to a target/victim and let them go.

Interesting as i have never really looked into ogryns as they don't really suit my army.

I really want to try orgyns, but to get a squad of 3 you need to pay 60 USD. That seems a little much for me.

-cgmckenzie

Same they are really expensive metal models and i don't like the look of them.

I am looking into finding some WHFB ogres and converting them. Any suggestions?

-cgmckenzie

Yea, I want 2 squads of 'em, but living in the worst country ever it costs more around 150 USD... >.< For both

I have 8 Ogryns, I got them for about $80 via the internet. Not awesome but a hell of a lot better than $22.50 per model retail.

They are pretty good tarpits against, well, anything without power weapons, but they aren't actually very good at killing things. Marines vs. Ogryns is a bit of a slapfest, as the marines can't wound them, and the Ogryns cant hit em'.

I would use them more, but they are *insanely* overcosted at 40 points. If only I could use them in DKoK for the FnP...

Maybe use Ogre Kingdoms Leadbelchers or use cheaper Ogre Kingdoms Bulls but i still don't like the ogre look.


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Which imperial armor has DKoK rules in.

Use ork boys and a bit of green stuff and different colors to scratch build em.

Ork boys would be too small for that, maybe nobs?

-cgmckenzie

Omegus wrote:

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The Acolyte wrote:Ogrins are also quite nasty if you use them right.

I would suggest stormtroopers. Not for the combat but simply because as a guard player you have to sacrifice things. Let your guardsmen squads take the charge, then they will die but... behind them is a 10 man squad of stormtroopers. So that is 20 rapid fire shots from the hotshot lasguns. At AP3 that means most marines are dead in my opinion.

Sadly, your opinion isn't supported by the facts. S3 will mean you won't kill that many marines (average 4-5 wounds for 20 shots), and even if you do, that Stormtrooper unit is now in the open and dead dead dead. Considering you cost the same (or more!) than the Space marines, but are way easier to kill, this is a very bad trade.

The guardsmen normally kill at least one marine aswell before they die. I also went on to say further in the post that you shoot everything at them. Guard win with massed fire and sacrificing cheap troops. be that the massed fire of multiple squads or a few tanks. 20 shots are 13 hits and 5 wounds. So 5 dead marines less to hit you in combat. The marines don't have enough attacks to kill the whole squad of stormtroopers. Also stormtrooper sqauds are about half the cost of a full squad of marines.

Selafyne wrote:So just a question if i put a PCS in a blob with an infantry squad they both don't get FNP from the medic in the PCS.

cgmckenzie wrote:I really want to try orgyns, but to get a squad of 3 you need to pay 60 USD. That seems a little much for me.

-cgmckenzie

Ailaros scratch-built his, and made a guide.

http://ailarian.com/folera/articles/hobby/ogryn-1.html

I like the idea of Ogryn, but haven't run them yet. Usually guardsmen wound marines on 5s and get wounded on 3s. Ogryn reverse that, and that's just sweet justice. Just watch out for Str 10. . . ID isn't usually something IG worries about, but could really hurt.

odorofdeath wrote:I have 8 Ogryns, I got them for about $80 via the internet. Not awesome but a hell of a lot better than $22.50 per model retail.

They are pretty good tarpits against, well, anything without power weapons, but they aren't actually very good at killing things. Marines vs. Ogryns is a bit of a slapfest, as the marines can't wound them, and the Ogryns cant hit em'.

I would use them more, but they are *insanely* overcosted at 40 points. If only I could use them in DKoK for the FnP...

Please consider your arguments more thoroughly to avoid posting nonsense like this.

1.) The power weapons of the enemy don't mean a lot to an Ogryn, because his 5+ save is the least of his defenses. T5 and 3 wounds is good defense, even with no save allowed.
2.) Ogryns pack quite a punch with S5/S6 on the charge, and a good short-range gun. I'll run the numbers in a little bit to show you what they can do.
3.) Ogryns hit marines exactly as easily as marines hit Ogryns. Both are WS4, and have very roughly the same number of attacks per point, with the edge going to Ogryns.
4.) Ogryns hit really hard: See below.

5 Ogryns vs. 10 Tac Marines, Round 1:
-Ogryns fire ripper guns: 15*1/2*2/3*1/3 = 1.67 marines dead, we'll call it 1 for this simulation
-Ogryns charge (but marines swing first): 8*1/2*1/3*2/3 = 0.89 wounds, we'll call it 1
-Ogryns swing: 21*1/2*5/6*1/3 = 2.92, we'll call it 3, but with 9 wounds done, the powerfist will probably have to take a save
-Powerfist swings: 2*1/2*5/6 = 0.83 wounds, again we'll call it one.
-Final Result? 3:2 in the Ogryns favor. However, it's still 5 Ogryns, but 4 marines are down.

Round 2:
Marines swing: 5*1/2*1/3*2/3 = 0.56 wounds. We'll allocate the wound to the Bone'ead to the Bone'ead, keeping all the Ogryn swinging.
Ogryn swing: 16*1/2*2/3*1/3 = 1.78 wounds, we'll call it 2
Powerfist swings: 2*1/2*5/6 = 0.83 wounds, we'll call it 1, and the first Ogryn drops, while 6 marines are down.

This pattern keeps going, despite roughly equivalent numbers of wounds lost, the Ogryns are doing way more damage than the marines. If 2 marines die to the ripper gun salvo it's worse because the powerfist will probably be taking saves every combat round, and once he's most of the damage output for the tac squad.

But wait! How do they compare to equal points of respected thunderhammer assault terminators (5 vs. 5)? It basically goes like this:
Ripper gun kills 1 Terminator
Charging Ogryns kill ~1.5 terminators (we'll call it one, they have to take about 9 saves): That's 40% down before terminators even get to swing.
3 thunderhammers swing, getting 2-3 wounds (we'll call it 3). 2 go on Ogryns, one goes on the Bone'ead, nobody dies.
Ogryns swing, killing another terminator
Terminators kill an Ogryn, but there are only 2 left, 1 if they were a little unlucky, and the Ogryns are still at 80%.

Caveats:
In both scenarios, Ogryn are given ripper gun shots and the charge. I allowed for this advantageous position because almost every opponent had to close with the Guard in order to win. The timing advantage goes to the guard player, because if the enemy doesn't engage at close range, they'll just be shot apart. This is especially true in the case of the assault terminators, because they have no guns. If the Ogryn unit is forced to close against a unit (allowing that unit shots and the charge), they will obviously do more poorly, but this is pretty rare due to the makeup of the Guard army. Against assault terminators, the Ogryn will likely need some sort of leadership buff from a Regimental Standard or a nearby Lord Commissar, as they'll need to make some leadership tests to stay in the fight. With L7 and stubborn, they are more likely to make each test than to fail it, but it's not something you'd want to hang your hat on. This sort of leadership buff is easy to get into play however, and you'll have it in your army anyway, but it is a consideration.

Something that stands toe to toe with an Assault Terminator is not "insanely overpriced". You may not like Ogryns, or you may think they are a bit too expensive, but the math shows they get the job done against at least one of the touchstone close combat units in the game.

Ogryns really are not a good assault unit for Imperial Guard.

Five Ogryns can be expected to kill slightly less than 2 Marines a turn. This will go up to about 3 if they get the assault, which is unlikely.

10 Marines, assuming no assault options, will cause about 2 wounds to Ogryns in an assault. If they have Bolt Pistols and CCWs, this doubles to about 4 wounds. Not exactly a happy situation for your Close Combat "Specialists" to be in where they're tying combat against a non-specialized unit.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:10 Marines, assuming no assault options, will cause about 2 wounds to Ogryns in an assault. If they have Bolt Pistols and CCWs, this doubles to about 4 wounds. Not exactly a happy situation for your Close Combat "Specialists" to be in where they're tying combat against a non-specialized unit.

What you're missing in this assessment is that the marines have 10 wounds, and lose effectiveness for each one lost. 5 Ogryn have 15 wounds, and don't lose any effectiveness until they hit 5 wounds (assuming they can allocate to the Bone 'ead). So for the first couple rounds, the Ogryn will effectively be full strength, while the marines will be half dead and dealing half damage.


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Also, a word of caution if you run Ogryn against terminators: GK terminators with hammers can be Str 10. Hammerhand gets applied before the 2x multipler, so they'll cause ID. That'll probably change the numbers a bit.

The point about GK terminators is a valid one, but not very concerning. GK's don't have stormshields, and so will die whimpering to IG shooting. Lightening Claw Terminators are also much tougher on Ogryns due to an increased number of attacks and higher initiative, but face the same lack of staying power vs. shooting. MEQs with extra attacks do cause some problems, but they are often more expensive, meaning fewer wounds, meaning a higher percentage of damage done by Ripper Guns.

On that note, I think Ripper Guns are too often ignored when considering Ogryn. Against glass hammer units, the Rippers will do nasty damage before close combat, and against tougher stuff, it's still helpful to kill one or two guys. Depending on the situation, they also give you a non-assault option. Plenty of times it's preferable to shoot and not assault.


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Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:This will go up to about 3 if they get the assault, which is unlikely.

I spend a short paragraph explaining why Ogryns getting the assault was likely. You clearly disagree, what's your argument?

Byte wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Crazed Dog wrote:I use 30 man blobs with a commissar with hidden powerfist, a medic, and 3 plasma guns. I play them as three 10 man squads I keep w/in 2" of each other (I use wooden movement trays if the opponent doesn't mind).

The medic helps vs. overheating and feel no pain. People complain they are like necrons lol. I use two squads like this with flamer platoon command squads in chimeras to give them 1st rank, 2nd rank.

So. Much. Wrong.

1) 3 10-man units is not a 30 man blob; not unless they are combined(as that is what a Blob is, combined squads)

2) Blobs cannot have hidden p-fists; only PCS Commissars even have access to P-fists, and PCSs cannot Combine(only Platoon infantry squads can combine).

3) Blobs cannot have Medics, again only PCS have the medi-pack upgrade available.

Note on #1: It seems you are saying you have 3 10-man movement trays that you keep within 2" and therefore are using the 3 trays simply for ease of movement, and that you are in fact using the 3 squads as a single blob unit. If so this is correct, but the other 2 points do remain valid as just plain wrong.

I ran a 30 man blob with a Lord Commisar P.fist and 3 sgt p.weapons.

Then you still didn't have a hidden powerfist; you had a P-fist on an IC that could be singled out in combat and killed before he ever got the chance to strike.

Ogryns are terrible because you basically have to stick a commissar with them, or babysit them with a company standard, or you run the risk of them running off half the time they have to make a command check. Ld7 = no bueno.

They ARE horrendously overpriced at 40 points. How often do you really face just regular plain-jane marines these days? It's all Blood Angels with multiple attacks, or Space Wolves with Mark of Wulfen+multiple attacks+totem, or Grey Knights that just pass their psychic test and instakill you.

Omegus wrote:Ogryns are terrible because you basically have to stick a commissar with them, or babysit them with a company standard, or you run the risk of them running off half the time they have to make a command check. Ld7 = no bueno.

They ARE horrendously overpriced at 40 points. How often do you really face just regular plain-jane marines these days? It's all Blood Angels with multiple attacks, or Space Wolves with Mark of Wulfen+multiple attacks+totem, or Grey Knights that just pass their psychic test and instakill you.

I probably wasn't going to use them any way cannot stand the models and i think i never will now.

Well at Adepticon my Ogryn unit of 5 w/Yarrik over the course of 4 games killed:

Game 1
Logan
12 Grey Hunters
Game2
10 Tactical Terminators
2 5 Marine Combat Squads
Game 3
60+ Ork Boyz (Lost track)
Game 4
2 Librarian
2 6 Man Death Companies
10 Assault Marines

Granted the re-roll from Yarrik swung this heavier than it should have gone. But since most combats lasted multiple rounds it only really affected the first round. I might not have gotten Logan w/out Yarrik or kill all 10 Terminators. I did always get the assault since I properly used my screening units to set it up.

Ogryns are far, far tougher than people give them credit for and they tote 12" heavy bolters. Don't forget they actually have grenades to which came in handy a few times when charging. My 2k foot list has a unit of 6 with Yarrik and a unit of 4 that outflanks or if that's illegal (at work) then just 2 units of 5. My mech list has two units of 4 in Chim's because some marines do make it to your lines and having a hammer in case is a good thing.

But hey, keep ignoring a solid unit. Means that more people will be surprised when the big blubbery bastards smash their faces in. Oh, and I built mine out of Fantasy Ogre Bulls w/some tau and IG parts.

Omegus wrote:Ogryns are terrible because you basically have to stick a commissar with them, or babysit them with a company standard, or you run the risk of them running off half the time they have to make a command check. Ld7 = no bueno.

They ARE horrendously overpriced at 40 points. How often do you really face just regular plain-jane marines these days? It's all Blood Angels with multiple attacks, or Space Wolves with Mark of Wulfen+multiple attacks+totem, or Grey Knights that just pass their psychic test and instakill you.

As I demonstrated, they beat units other than Tac Marines. I already showed they do quite well vs. assault terminators. The truth is, though, that Elite CC MEQs are pretty much terrible against the Guard. They are just as tough as regular marines but cost quite a bit more. If Ogryn aren't very good against them, it's not a big problem. I also don't see the leadership requirements as a big problem. The company command squad is often also in a chimera and moving to engage with special weapons anyway. Keeping the Ogryns within 12" of the Chimera's hull isn't very hard, especially as you only need it against certain enemies. They may not be your style, which is fine, but to to stick your head in the sand and say that a S5, T5, 3 wound, 3 attack model is unmitigated crap is just not thinking very hard.

Again, they aren't bad in and of themselves, they just aren't worth 40 points each. It's 255 points for just 5 in a chimera. I don't like blowing that many points on anything in the IG list. My favorite part about the book is that you have tons of options well under 200 points that do their job extremely well.

The Space Wolves in the example are their basic 15-point troops. The Grey Knights cost 1/2 as much and deliver one-hit one-kill vs. 40 point Ogryns.

::sigh::

Your looking at things in vacuums. That's not actually how this game is played.

At 40pts per model they are priced fine since they have more support fire power than any other combat units in the game and are almost gurarenteed to get the charge if you play correctly.

The only thing in an IG army that worries my SW's is Ogryns. Why? because they can eat or tie up all my small squads which means I won't be able to crack tanks and eat the contents with them.

Oh well, like I said, have fun. The thread is about combat troops, which is what Ogryns excel at in the IG format. with that I'll bow out.

I would love to run ogryns, just to see if I could do anything with them and if they are worth the points. They do not seem worth the money, though. For the $60 I would plonk down for a squad of 3, I can get 2 squads of vostroyans, a much better modeling option for the money, IMO.

-cgmckenzie

@cgmckenzie

Convert them out of Ogre Bulls. $40-60 (once you include bitz) for 6 Ogryns. $10 or less each.

yeah, I thought about that. I need to see how they compare size-wise, but I am going to my FLGS tonight and will have an excellent opportunity to check it out!

-cgmckenzie

PM me and I'll shoot you a photo of my squad of 5. They match up pretty well.

Hulksmash wrote:Well at Adepticon my Ogryn unit of 5 w/Yarrik over the course of 4 games killed:

Game 1
Logan
12 Grey Hunters
Game2
10 Tactical Terminators
2 5 Marine Combat Squads
Game 3
60+ Ork Boyz (Lost track)
Game 4
2 Librarian
2 6 Man Death Companies
10 Assault Marines

Granted the re-roll from Yarrik swung this heavier than it should have gone. But since most combats lasted multiple rounds it only really affected the first round. I might not have gotten Logan w/out Yarrik or kill all 10 Terminators. I did always get the assault since I properly used my screening units to set it up.

Ogryns are far, far tougher than people give them credit for and they tote 12" heavy bolters. Don't forget they actually have grenades to which came in handy a few times when charging. My 2k foot list has a unit of 6 with Yarrik and a unit of 4 that outflanks or if that's illegal (at work) then just 2 units of 5. My mech list has two units of 4 in Chim's because some marines do make it to your lines and having a hammer in case is a good thing.

But hey, keep ignoring a solid unit. Means that more people will be surprised when the big blubbery bastards smash their faces in. Oh, and I built mine out of Fantasy Ogre Bulls w/some tau and IG parts.

+1

I was against Ogryns until Hulk used them to brutalize our opponents. Hell, in both games where we teamed up, they did better than my Khornate guys. It was pretty embarrassing for all concerned.

Hulksmash wrote:are almost gurarenteed to get the charge if you play correctly

Please elaborate.

Biophysical wrote:On that note, I think Ripper Guns are too often ignored when considering Ogryn. Against glass hammer units, the Rippers will do nasty damage before close combat, and against tougher stuff, it's still helpful to kill one or two guys. Depending on the situation, they also give you a non-assault option. Plenty of times it's preferable to shoot and not assault.

And unless your opponent is either completely outmaneuvered or rather inept at this game, causing casualties on a unit you wish to assault pre-assault move is not a wise decision. Additionally, remember that you are spending approximately 240-ish points on 5 Ogryn and a Commissar. If you're not taking the Commissar, you run off the board way too easily.

That will give you, without any real issue, three Infantry Squads that could do far more damage to that squad of Marines and, more importantly, do something other than be a tarpit for suboptimal "combat" units.

Biophysical wrote:
I spend a short paragraph explaining why Ogryns getting the assault was likely. You clearly disagree, what's your argument?

Omegus wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:are almost gurarenteed to get the charge if you play correctly

Please elaborate.

Don't put them in a position where they'll get charged first?

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:An intelligent opponent is going to be able to close with the Guard army rapidly and engage them.So basically, sure, against a badly-outplayed Vanilla Marine player with a suboptimal list, you'll get the assault and get to shoot your Ripper Guns without being too far away to assault. I suppose that makes them phenomenal!

It works both ways smart arse. Sure if you are playing against someone who wants to Assault you then you are unlikely to be able to stop them but if you are the one on the attack you can posistion you units in a way that dictates the flow of battle and seeing as you can use the Move! Move! Move! order Ogryns aren't all that slow to advance. Also not everyone plays competitively which allows room to experiment with different units.

Ogryns are over costed both in game and to purchase but they are not ineffective and they do add something to the Guard (multi-wound tough bastards). They make a great shield for Power Blobs or can be used as a very effective Counter Charge unit for a Gunline army. They can also receive orders! Although they do "need" a Lord Commissar with them, which really does bump the price even further but you can give them Stealth, it does mean they'll almost never run and almost always receive orders.
I rarely play at the points level i can justify taking them but they can easily be placed in a 1500pt list.

In short: I like them but they ain't necessary. I still class them as more fun than effective but i wont deny they certainly get the job done.

I only gave them a chance after reading about them in some of Ailaros' Battle Reports. For example: http://www.ailarian.com/folera/batreps/blood-conquers-all/blood-conquers-23.html (hope he doesn't mind me posting this) I particularly love this Battle Report for the start; all those red crosses make me physically cringe every time

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:
That will give you, without any real issue, three Infantry Squads that could do far more damage to that squad of Marines and, more importantly, do something other than be a tarpit for suboptimal "combat" units.

I will readily admit that Ogryns would not be the first "hold the line" unit I'd put in a Guard list. There are bases covered by infantry squads that are not covered by Ogryns. However, after you've got a solid base of infantry, more infantry isn't always a no-brainer. The Ogryn are fairly compact for their points, and still very resilient per point, allowing you to free up some space to maneuver your other elements, all while being pretty effective clubs against a wide range of enemy combat units. You basically get near the CC power of a guard blob, but that fits into a Chimera.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:
An intelligent opponent is going to be able to close with the Guard army rapidly and engage them. Sure, after you lose a few Infantry squads, you might be able to get a counterassault off, but for the most part you are arguing that an infantry-based unit on foot (or in a non-open-topped vehicle) getting the assault. I'll be honest: The only foot-based Marines I see are Space Wolves running Misslespam or Thunderspam, neither of which care about Ogryns at all.

I tend to run Ogryns in a chimera, moving them the full 12" forward for a turn or two. If the enemy is coming close (because they want to assault the guard), the Ogryn will be in an excellent position to disembark and intercept. This is how they get the charge, not by counter-charging, but by setting up a threat zone that requires massive firepower to counter. If the enemy wants to slug it out at range, I'll keep driving forward till the Chimera is busted, then hike on foot. Once the Ogryns are dismounted, the enemy either ignores them or shoots at them. Most weapons are positively awful against them. They either have strength that is too low, or rate of fire that is too low. There's a few exceptions, but they're rare. While not hitting as hard for their points as some CC units, they are so tough for their points that shooting them almost never does enough damage for the effort.

Amusingly enough, Ogryns don't care about missile launchers themselves, and here's I'm getting to their greatest strength. Any non-S10 shooting weapon is going to have an extremely difficult time doing worthwhile damage against the Ogryns. 12 missile launchers shooting at Ogryns in cover would kill only one of the brutes, less if one of those wounds was on the bone'ead. 12 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 = about 3 wounds. If you intercept the Ogryns with your own CC troops, that's great for the guard, because it buys them some turns. If you shoot at the Ogryn, that's great for the guard, because you're not shooting AT weapons at guard artillery. If they get through, they'll start popping 5 man MEQ squads like grapes. I'll readily admit they're lousy against Thunderwolf Cavalry, but nothing's good against everything.

Biophysical wrote:I will readily admit that Ogryns would not be the first "hold the line" unit I'd put in a Guard list. There are bases covered by infantry squads that are not covered by Ogryns. However, after you've got a solid base of infantry, more infantry isn't always a no-brainer. The Ogryn are fairly compact for their points, and still very resilient per point, allowing you to free up some space to maneuver your other elements, all while being pretty effective clubs against a wide range of enemy combat units. You basically get near the CC power of a guard blob, but that fits into a Chimera.

To be fair, the only type of force I'd consider running Ogryns in is a foot-based Guard list, which already starts out as suboptimal. If you're playing with blobs, you really don't want a few AV 12 targets sticking out like a sore thumb for the opponents' anti-tank fire to target.

I would much rather those ACs and LCs and MGs and what-have-you take out a Guardman than shoot at a Chimera, and if you're packing Ogryns into a tank, that's a very expensive little unit that's asking for some attention.

Biophysical wrote:I tend to run Ogryns in a chimera, moving them the full 12" forward for a turn or two. If the enemy is coming close (because they want to assault the guard), the Ogryn will be in an excellent position to disembark and intercept. This is how they get the charge, not by counter-charging, but by setting up a threat zone that requires massive firepower to counter. If the enemy wants to slug it out at range, I'll keep driving forward till the Chimera is busted, then hike on foot. Once the Ogryns are dismounted, the enemy either ignores them or shoots at them. Most weapons are positively awful against them. They either have strength that is too low, or rate of fire that is too low. There's a few exceptions, but they're rare. While not hitting as hard for their points as some CC units, they are so tough for their points that shooting them almost never does enough damage for the effort.

At the point that you start moving closer, you are, in fact, helping an assault-based force. Ogryn can, theoretically, tie (or maybe even win) a combat against a Marine Tactical Squad. Anything better will go through them, at which point their pathetic Ld just sees them off the table and gives the assault force a little bit of a movement boost.

Biophysical wrote:Amusingly enough, Ogryns don't care about missile launchers themselves, and here's I'm getting to their greatest strength. Any non-S10 shooting weapon is going to have an extremely difficult time doing worthwhile damage against the Ogryns. 12 missile launchers shooting at Ogryns in cover would kill only one of the brutes, less if one of those wounds was on the bone'ead. 12 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 = about 3 wounds. If you intercept the Ogryns with your own CC troops, that's great for the guard, because it buys them some turns. If you shoot at the Ogryn, that's great for the guard, because you're not shooting AT weapons at guard artillery. If they get through, they'll start popping 5 man MEQ squads like grapes. I'll readily admit they're lousy against Thunderwolf Cavalry, but nothing's good against everything.

Why would missile launchers ever bother to target an Ogryn squad in the first place? If we're talking a "standard" SW Razorspam list, take out the Chimera, proceed to ignore the unit for the rest of the game. If they get too close, well, that's what JotWW is for.

Against a more dedicated assault-based army, Ogryns don't manage to work as a tarpit at all. If they're out in front of the rest of your army, it's just a free consolidation move for a unit that was going to get shot next turn anyways.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:
At the point that you start moving closer, you are, in fact, helping an assault-based force. Ogryn can, theoretically, tie (or maybe even win) a combat against a Marine Tactical Squad. Anything better will go through them, at which point their pathetic Ld just sees them off the table and gives the assault force a little bit of a movement boost.

You don't get out and let them assault you, you hang out in a chimera, then disembark, fire if it's a good option, and assault. Do you suggest enemy assault troops charge the chimera? They might kill it, and then trade a 55 point IFV for putting themselves in "Ordnance Formation".

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:
Why would missile launchers ever bother to target an Ogryn squad in the first place? If we're talking a "standard" SW Razorspam list, take out the Chimera, proceed to ignore the unit for the rest of the game. If they get too close, well, that's what JotWW is for.

This is my point exactly, if all you've got to take them down is JotWW, you're killing max 1 per turn, assuming a not completely stupid formation of Ogryn. If you kill two, the remaining 3 Ogryn can still pound through small MEQ fire teams without much trouble. This is IF you put down the Chimera in a timely manner, which means dedicating lascannon and missile launcher fire that could be shooting at Manticores, Hellhounds, Artillery, Vendettas, etc. It's not a foregone conclusion. Terrain and actual play matter here.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:To be fair, the only type of force I'd consider running Ogryns in is a foot-based Guard list, which already starts out as suboptimal. If you're playing with blobs, you really don't want a few AV 12 targets sticking out like a sore thumb for the opponents' anti-tank fire to target.

Here's your first problem. a) foot lists can be ridiculously fantastic and b) so can hybrid lists.

At the point that you start moving closer, you are, in fact, helping an assault-based force. Ogryn can, theoretically, tie (or maybe even win) a combat against a Marine Tactical Squad.

An assault based force, such as your own IG army. And forward isn't necessarily good for an assaulty enemy. If you get in the sweet spot, you can get your 18" of masses Str 5 fire against the enemy troops more than once, followed by your own charge. "All forward all the time" isn't actually a good assault strategy, there's actual thought put into how to get the charge.

As shown, Ogryn don't "maybe win" against Tac marines, they pulverize them. You're blatantly ignoring points made earlier. Why the hate? Did an Ogryn insult your mother?

The Acolyte wrote:Also stormtrooper sqauds are about half the cost of a full squad of marines.

The 10 stormtroopers you are talking about cost 165 points before any upgrades or special weapons. 160 points buys you 10 Grey Hunters with a pair of plasma guns. 160 points buys you a 5-man assault squad with a flamer and a fast razorback with a TL assault cannon. Even the vanilla marines, who are super crappy these days and I don't remember the last time I saw them, can for 200 points drop 10 guys with a melta, multi-melta and a power fist. Even if you lump in a transport for these units (which would preclude you firing at them, by the way), they are still nowhere near as expensive as you make them out to be.

You are either lying (why?) or have no idea what you are talking about.

Biophysical wrote:You don't get out and let them assault you, you hang out in a chimera, then disembark, fire if it's a good option, and assault. Do you suggest enemy assault troops charge the chimera? They might kill it, and then trade a 55 point IFV for putting themselves in "Ordnance Formation".

Far more likely, you hang out in a Chimera, get blown up, then get assaulted. Or is this opponent in no way or form playing with adequate anti-infantry firepower?

Biophysical wrote:This is my point exactly, if all you've got to take them down is JotWW, you're killing max 1 per turn, assuming a not completely stupid formation of Ogryn. If you kill two, the remaining 3 Ogryn can still pound through small MEQ fire teams without much trouble. This is IF you put down the Chimera in a timely manner, which means dedicating lascannon and missile launcher fire that could be shooting at Manticores, Hellhounds, Artillery, Vendettas, etc. It's not a foregone conclusion. Terrain and actual play matter here.

Of course a real game matters far more than simple theorizing. Remember, though, that you're relying on your opponents to make mistakes here, or to have at the same time enough points to have a decent Troops presence plus Melta-vets in Vendettas (I assume you wouldn't be taking them empty, sorry if I'm mistaken here), Manticores, Hellhounds, Artillery, etc. Frankly, I'd be astonished to see how you get it all to fit in, say 1850 points while still having enough bodies on the ground to fit.

Furthermore (forgot to mention!) with decent positioning, catching 2 Ogryn with JotWW each cast is academic. Catching more, well, that just depends on how things go.

ElCheezus wrote:Here's your first problem. a) foot lists can be ridiculously fantastic and b) so can hybrid lists.

Can be, in very particular metagames. Are not, in general.

ElCheezus wrote:An assault based force, such as your own IG army. And forward isn't necessarily good for an assaulty enemy. If you get in the sweet spot, you can get your 18" of masses Str 5 fire against the enemy troops more than once, followed by your own charge. "All forward all the time" isn't actually a good assault strategy, there's actual thought put into how to get the charge.

I don't play IG, so I'm not exactly certain what you're talking about. My brother, on the other hand, does, but his list is far from optimized. Perhaps that's what you're talking about?

ElCheezus wrote:As shown, Ogryn don't "maybe win" against Tac marines, they pulverize them. You're blatantly ignoring points made earlier. Why the hate? Did an Ogryn insult your mother?

Assuming that you are within range to be able to fire the guns and safely get off an assault without your opponent simply pulling casualties from the front, yes, you can win combat by 2-3 points against a non-specialized close combat unit and continue to beat them down in successive turns. Otherwise, the odds are quite a bit closer, and we're talking quite a large point gap here. 5 Ogryn plus a Chimera plus a Commissar Lord to beat up a lowly Tac Squad? Again, bravo!

Sigh, I don't get Ogryns vs. Tac Squads why would a marine player let his Tac squads in CC with your Ogryns!?!?!? The things I see your gonna get CC with marines are Assault Terminators and even then they're either gonna be with Shrike (infiltrate+fleet Smurfs) or inside a LR(others) but, why would he assault your ogyrns when he can kill the other more relevant units of your army. Plus if your opponent is competitive they're not gonna charge you knowing they're gonna lose CC, of course they'll soften up those ogryns before assaulting.

The job I see of Ogryns is to tarpit you'll need a Lord Commissar which is an IC that is a multi wound T3 which is so easy to kill, letting them just have 1-2 turns to tarpit(most of the time is enough) but at the cost of a big chunk of your army vs. his unit which will kill your ogryns eventually. And what's worse is that you'll be locked in combat so you can't shoot him and if you lose CC in your turn that is a big problem for IG. And you will get assaulted by a good marine player unless your chimera was hidden from LOS which again, he would not go near and instead go to the other important units.

Either way I'm not a big fan of ogryns myself, why get ogryns when you can get more guardsmen or big guns.

h0r0 wrote:Sigh, I don't get Ogryns vs. Tac Squads why would a marine player let his Tac squads in CC with your Ogryns!?!?!? The things I see your gonna get CC with marines are Assault Terminators and even then they're either gonna be with Shrike (infiltrate+fleet Smurfs) or inside a LR(others) but, why would he assault your ogyrns when he can kill the other more relevant units of your army. Plus if your opponent is competitive they're not gonna charge you knowing they're gonna lose CC, of course they'll soften up those ogryns before assaulting.

All of this works both ways. It's not like the tactics for Orgryn is to plop them in the middle of the board with a sign that says "assault me." There are support units, fieldcraft, objectives, and tactics that control the flow of a game. The same way the enemy softens up the Ogryn before assaulting, so does the IG player try to soften up any of their targets.

Because you can not fit the equivelent of a blob platoon in a chimera? Anyway it is one of the coolest squads about -fluff FTW!

Me I still only use Melta PW Blobs with the odd Autocannon or two, if I have spare points (I usually do).

I'm still not taken by Roughriders though, yes the itial charge is greta but they are not available in enough numbers to take too much punishment. The last time I played against them my Griffon crews ate hearterly on horsemeat that night!

A 10-man unit of Rough Riders has 21 Str 5 I 5 power weapon attacks on the charge. Against marines (without crazy initiative), they're expected to lay down 7 wounds. Against terminators, you can expect four wounds.

Against any enemy squad, that should make points back. Combine with blobs, Ogryn, or just shooting and a unit should be wiped out. Of course, so are the Rough Riders.

I've used them a couple times, and liked them, but they take a different style than most of the rest of the IG army, I think.

Yeah i am defiantly going to convert a rough rider squad for my IG as they will be useful against marines and they can assault from 12 inches away so including movement and run they can move 24 inches a turn assuming they assault as well so space marines cannot shoot at you at all into your assault unlike ogyrns and rough riders are a lot cheaper points wise.

Blob squads are really line units, they have a combination of firepower, durability, and assault potential that makes them ideal for defending and holding objectives. They are a bit unwieldy, although not necessarily slow thanks to the Move! order.

Ogryn squads are straight on assault units. They are tough and have good hitting power, and a small footprint and the ability to fit inside a chimera gives them some movement options that blobs don't have. They get the most for their points when they can use their toughness. They can expose themselves to threats that Rough Riders can't.

Rough Riders are counter-assault units. They are extremely fragile, but hit fast and very hard, especially for the price. You need to hide them before it's time to use them, however (holding them in reserve is a nice option), because it won't take much firepower to render them ineffective. They only work once, but if you use it right, that's all they need to do. They take up a fast attack choice, which has a lot of competition for good units. If your sold on rough riders, keep these attributes in mind, remember, they are just as tough as Guardsmen for twice the price, and any casualties you take degrades your combat power (as opposed to blobs).

let's be sensible, The IG have not got much in the way of a big nasty hit stick, but they do have Ogryns, you do not need a LC to go with them, the CCS in a Chimmy is more effective in my opinion, obviously Ogryns will get minced by heavy dedicated assault troops, but dedicated heavy assault troops get minced by the outrageously large amount of guns you can bring to bear, and if it all goes wrong and you keep rolling ones, well the emperor protects.

I have a question about blobs: has anyone pitted them against serious assault armies? I know they do well against marines and similar. What about grey hunters, or blood angels (esp with furious charge)? Those are much better in combat at the same/cheaper price.

What about orks, who are massively better in combat then guardsmen for the same price? Or gaunts with upgrades/tervigon support? Against those two I suppose you go back to lasguns and FRFSRF, which should be ok. But I do wonder about the more beefed-up marine variants.

I have had a couple of bouts against MEQ's and the like, the results are never very pretty. Sure, in the end I will kill 90-100% of their unit but the cost is staggering. I can lose a 50 man blob in a combat against a squad of sisters or GK over the course of a game.

It takes a while, but there is very little the blobs cannot mathhammer to death.

-cgmckenzie

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I have a question about blobs: has anyone pitted them against serious assault armies? I know they do well against marines and similar. What about grey hunters, or blood angels (esp with furious charge)? Those are much better in combat at the same/cheaper price.

What about orks, who are massively better in combat then guardsmen for the same price? Or gaunts with upgrades/tervigon support? Against those two I suppose you go back to lasguns and FRFSRF, which should be ok. But I do wonder about the more beefed-up marine variants.

I've had a 21 man unit eat a unit of Spacewolf Terminators. I've had them eat multiple units of assault marines. I've had a single unit eat Gants, then Genestealers, then a Tervigon in a single game (getting the charge off with a priest in the unit really helped that day)

Against hordes you have a problem, though. Orks and Nids can beat you at your own game, by having more bodies than you can eat through. When they've all got two or three times the attacks you do, it's going to be trouble. A couple rounds of FRFSRF really helps with that. Heck, it helps with anything.

Purifiers I'd avoid altogether, as they can get your Commissar without killing all of his ablative wounds. Other GKs, though, shouldn't be a problem in assault. The problem with them is the abundance of stormbolters.

No matter what you do with blobs, a lot of them will die. But that's the beauty: the real offensive power is centered in three or four guys. So even when you lose 50% of your ablative wounds, you're still at 90% offensive ability. The biggest problem I've had is when enough wounds can be put on the unit to force you to allocate them to the guys with the power weapons. They're just not likely to make it at that point.

Orks are probably the toughest. They have better CC power, and roughly similar shooting potential (with shoota boyz), and the chance to fleet a turn to potentially avoid a round of shooting. They also don't care about your power weapons, so you lose combat power linearly against them (as opposed to MEQs). I find that against Orcs, I'm served best by hanging back and relying on my templates until the very end. My blob armies tend to have several strong templates for this very reason.

Against MEQ+ units, I avoid combat a turn longer, giving me another round to shoot. The blobs then wipe up what's left. They don't usually care that they lost 8 Guardsmen instead of 4.

In all cases, I'm never afraid of resorting to FRFSRF. I have the bodies to absorb a charge.

I love FRF!SRF! ! It is so incredibly useful and absolutely destroys most everything.

Although there was this one time when my 50 man blob shot into a 5 terminator squad and killed nothing. That was embarrassing...

-cgmckenzie

I find it very difficult to believe you managed to maneuver 50 guardsmen to fire at a single squad. Hell, I find it hard to believe you can maneuver 50 guardsmen to do anything.

It was apocalypse and the terminators scattered 8-10 inches off my gun line. A little bit of pincer movement and all 50 guardsmen were within range. It is incredibly unwieldy, but when you can actually muster it right, it *almost* always does something good.

-cgmckenzie

Ogryns definitely get my vote for IG's best kept secret. Against anything T3 armies, they'll just grind through entire units and laugh as the wimpy enemies desperately attempt to wound them.

Against marines, they have to send in specialists (embarrassing, and even power weapons on S4 won't help a great deal) or just get trapped forever.

Definitely a great anvil to hold a unit in place so a blob can catch up and swamp it, or just hold a unit in place ffor a few turns.

I agree that blobs pretty much have an answer for most things, but I have found that they (I?) struggle with high toughness MCs and the like.

Yes they tarpit fine and keep them engaged for most if not all of a game but I would like them to be able to kill them off a bit better (i.e take a PF). Even 3 or 4 power weapons struggle at S3 vs T6+.

Ogryns go some way to counter this, but I have yet to use them.

The blob answer to MCs is "Bring it Down". Meltas (common blob armaments) and plasmas will do a few wounds, re-rolling lasguns will do one or two more. Anything left should be reasonably easy to deal with in close combat.

I find the cost of 30-man blobs prohibitive for what I'm getting. The very cheapest they come in w/no specials or heavies and only a single commissar is 255 (this includes the PCS). Once you start giving them anything else the price just mounts. Add in that the Vindicare can now pick off that commissar and suddenly it's looking worse and worse. I'd rather get 18 T5 wounds for 5pts less in Ogryns, but that might just be me.