How many Space Marines there are in the Imperium?

500.000?
1.000.000?
1.250.000?

There are around 1000 chapters of loyalists and betrayers..
most loyalists number 1000 SM, some less, some more. Lets count them all as 1000 each. Now we need to find out how many CSM legions there are. And their losses.

Somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000.
The number likely fluctuates but i'd say it is between that.
This is just loyalist right?

I think so.

I'll post the most recent post on the matter from the Tau thread. iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's well over 500,000, although I would doubt it would be over 1,000,000. There's roughly a thousand chapters. Over a thousand battle brothers each. Over a million if there are NO casualties, which there are. So, on average there would probably be about 50ish casualties per chapter, giving about 975ish on average. Now, there are more chapters that are under strength than there are chapters who field more than a thousand by standard, so say about 950 on average. So, I put the ROUGH number of Space Marines in the whole Imperium at about 950,000.

And before we go off topic and all.... finial word to this is that you forgotten that every captain of the company can form a chapter of his own. We counted the several new founding chapters. That BT actually umber now more than 6000 ( even they have divided into chapters ). And we count vehicle crews, they are also Space Marines.

Now back to Tau fire cast...

Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? They can't just break off and form their own chapter with their company, doing that would have them considered renegade, unless it's actually sanctioned by The Imperium, and theres no examples of this in fluff. New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per codex chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.

Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

I would say so, along with the other specialized roles like Librarians, putting the actual number per Chapter at about 1035. What about honor guard? Are they counted as line marines? And theres the Scout Company, there's probably not 100 all the time in every chapter. Like the Salamanders, they have a lot less in theirs.

iproxtaco wrote:
Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? They can't just break off and form their own chapter with their company, doing that would have them considered renegade, unless it's actually sanctioned by The Imperium, and theres no examples of this in fluff. New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per codex chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.

That's how new chapters are made. When founding chapter decide to make a successor ( they do that rarelly dough ). They choses their best captain and he and all marines under his command became new chapter. After that they recruit people from original chapter homeworld. This is explained din some SM book ( forgotten the name ). And before they found a new chapter, they must report that to higher authority ( Inquisition, High Lords ) so that they keep number of new marines.

One chapter have 1000 battle brothers. Where are vehicle crews? Honor Guard? Terminators? Librarians? It makes sense that chapter have more than 1000 marines for battle + support stuff.

Its about 1200 all in for a chapter isnt it?

So 1000x 1250, plus a few have loads more.

Oh and dont forget the GK.

On GW's own line of thinking: Space marines are organized in chapters a 1000 marines and if GW shows us that chapter there will be more than 1000 marines on that pic... ( codex SM 3rd ed ).

If you count the codex organization:

- company a 10 squads of 10 marines.
( captain, command squad, attached specialists like chaplains, librarians, techmarines, apothecaries and the dreads aren't part of this 10 x 10 structure , maybe the vehicle crews should be added too ).
- HQ with all the specialists ( said chaplains, librarians, techmarines, apothecaries, chapter master and honor guard, again vehicle pool crews ).

Sums up basically to 1000 + 5 organized sub-groups of 50 + x members.
Without casualties a codex adherent chapter would have about 1250 marines.

Around 1000 active chapters should contribute ~ 1.000.000 - 1.250.000 marines.

A nice bit of info was in the GK dex. When chapter 666 was revealed at second founding, the IoM had 400 chapters listed.
Thus the space marines began after the split into chapters with ~ 400.000 marines.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? They can't just break off and form their own chapter with their company, doing that would have them considered renegade, unless it's actually sanctioned by The Imperium, and theres no examples of this in fluff. New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per codex chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.

That's how new chapters are made. When founding chapter decide to make a successor ( they do that rarelly dough ). They choses their best captain and he and all marines under his command became new chapter. After that they recruit people from original chapter homeworld. This is explained din some SM book ( forgotten the name ). And before they found a new chapter, they must report that to higher authority ( Inquisition, High Lords ) so that they keep number of new marines.

One chapter have 1000 battle brothers. Where are vehicle crews? Honor Guard? Terminators? Librarians? It makes sense that chapter have more than 1000 marines for battle + support stuff.

I'm sorry to tell you this but you are very wrong, read Index Astartes. Chapters are only formed at the will of the High Lords of Terra (and ergo the Emperor), chapter's may petition the High Lords but it is not up to them.

Everyone else has fluff sources to back this up, you have your idea with no fluff support, the Carde theory is only a fan theory (it works very well but is still only a theory). What is know is that new chapters are made by the Mechanicus once ordered.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? They can't just break off and form their own chapter with their company, doing that would have them considered renegade, unless it's actually sanctioned by The Imperium, and theres no examples of this in fluff. New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per codex chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.

That's how new chapters are made. When founding chapter decide to make a successor ( they do that rarelly dough ). They choses their best captain and he and all marines under his command became new chapter. After that they recruit people from original chapter homeworld. This is explained din some SM book ( forgotten the name ). And before they found a new chapter, they must report that to higher authority ( Inquisition, High Lords ) so that they keep number of new marines.

One chapter have 1000 battle brothers. Where are vehicle crews? Honor Guard? Terminators? Librarians? It makes sense that chapter have more than 1000 marines for battle + support stuff.

That's not how chapters are formed. A captain doesn't just go off to form his own whenever he feels like it, and source chapters do not make the decision. Over about 55 years, a fresh set of 1000 progenoid glands are manufactured. Some veterans will then be selected to train new recruits, but an entire company is not taken out to form a new one.
But there's not an extra 300 in every chapter. There's maybe another 50, which would put the number at 1 million if you take into consideration the variation of numbers and the casualties. Still, where's the other 300,000 from?

A number so small as to be completely irrelevant.
Nah, I'm just trollling.
But I do think that.

TrollPie wrote:A number so small as to be completely irrelevant.
Nah, I'm just trollling.
But I do think that.

Trolling AND wrong?

Space marines are 1 tool in the arsenal of the imperial warmachine. And every cogwheel contributes and counts.

1hadhq wrote:

TrollPie wrote:A number so small as to be completely irrelevant.
Nah, I'm just trollling.
But I do think that.

Trolling AND wrong?

Space marines are 1 tool in the arsenal of the imperial warmachine. And every cogwheel contributes and counts.

Space Marines are on the verge of redundancy, though.

Is that so?

Or just the IoM's ability to switch gears if neccessary...

There is still the front-cover of the 5th ed rulebook. The symbols may hint on the duty of the organization represented.

BluntmanDC wrote:
I'm sorry to tell you this but you are very wrong, read Index Astartes. Chapters are only formed at the will of the High Lords of Terra (and ergo the Emperor), chapter's may petition the High Lords but it is not up to them.

That was I was saying. When chapter wants to made a successor they petition to High Lords. And if they approve then waht I have said happened - captain lead his men and found a new chapter of the Astartes. If not, then no matter.

What here does not go with that that you said?

mattyrm wrote:Its about 1200 all in for a chapter isnt it?

So 1000x 1250, plus a few have loads more.

Oh and dont forget the GK.

Is it stated somewhere that only infantry SMs count as SMs?

iproxtaco wrote:
That's not how chapters are formed. A captain doesn't just go off to form his own whenever he feels like it, and source chapters do not make the decision. Over about 55 years, a fresh set of 1000 progenoid glands are manufactured. Some veterans will then be selected to train new recruits, but an entire company is not taken out to form a new one.
But there's not an extra 300 in every chapter. There's maybe another 50, which would put the number at 1 million if you take into consideration the variation of numbers and the casualties. Still, where's the other 300,000 from?

It was explaned. Chapter send request to High Lords and then the captain may form the new chapter.
And the other ~300.000 are explained:

1hadhq wrote:On GW's own line of thinking: Space marines are organized in chapters a 1000 marines and if GW shows us that chapter there will be more than 1000 marines on that pic... ( codex SM 3rd ed ).

If you count the codex organization:

- company a 10 squads of 10 marines.
( captain, command squad, attached specialists like chaplains, librarians, techmarines, apothecaries and the dreads aren't part of this 10 x 10 structure , maybe the vehicle crews should be added too ).
- HQ with all the specialists ( said chaplains, librarians, techmarines, apothecaries, chapter master and honor guard, again vehicle pool crews ).

Sums up basically to 1000 + 5 organized sub-groups of 50 + x members.
Without casualties a codex adherent chapter would have about 1250 marines.

Around 1000 active chapters should contribute ~ 1.000.000 - 1.250.000 marines.

A nice bit of info was in the GK dex. When chapter 666 was revealed at second founding, the IoM had 400 chapters listed.
Thus the space marines began after the split into chapters with ~ 400.000 marines.

See?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
That's not how chapters are formed. A captain doesn't just go off to form his own whenever he feels like it, and source chapters do not make the decision. Over about 55 years, a fresh set of 1000 progenoid glands are manufactured. Some veterans will then be selected to train new recruits, but an entire company is not taken out to form a new one.
But there's not an extra 300 in every chapter. There's maybe another 50, which would put the number at 1 million if you take into consideration the variation of numbers and the casualties. Still, where's the other 300,000 from?

It was explaned. Chapter send request to High Lords and then the captain may form the new chapter.
And the other ~300.000 are explained:

Eh, no, that's NOT how new chapters are formed, I at least have a source, you don't, just your opinion. The High Lords decide when new chapters are created, they aren't made simply because established chapters ask for them. They are also not formed through a captain and his entire fething company, it's formed through growing new progenoids and creating an entirely new set of marines, trained by veteran members from their source chapter. And no, the other 300,000 were not explained.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it stated somewhere that only infantry SMs count as SMs?

I didn't read that anywhere.

Even so, tanks are not driven by themselves ( their drivers go trough genetic modification and training to ), Dreds are not piloted by AI ( they have Space Marine inside it ) and books and chapter records are not cataloged themselves ( Librarians do that, and they almost never go into fight ). And if we add Honor Guard ( they are not included anywhere, not even in 1'st company ), Sternguard, Chaplain... we get a little larger number than 1000.

1,000,000.

iproxtaco wrote:
Eh, no, that's NOT how new chapters are formed, I at least have a source, you don't, just your opinion. The High Lords decide when new chapters are created, they aren't made simply because established chapters ask for them. They are also not formed through a captain and his entire fething company, it's formed through growing new progenoids and creating an entirely new set of marines, trained by veteran members from their source chapter. And no, the other 300,000 were not explained.

"The creation of a new Chapter is known as a Founding, and it does not happen overnight. Each Chapter is created from the gene-seed of an existing donor Chapter. The zygote is implanted in a human test-slave who spends his entire life in a static experimental capsule, immobile and serving nothing but as a medium which from two progenoids will develop. When the progenoids are developed, they are extracted from original test-slave and then implanted into another two test-slaves, producing four progenoids, and so on. It takes 55 years of reproduction to create a healthy set of 1,000 organs. These must be sanctioned officially by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra, speaking for the Emperor, who alone can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter."

This is how they are formed, and they also must be approved by AM as well as HLoT. Then again, there is no mention of captain anywhere? Then who do they use to produce a new chapter?

Yes Brother Coa, we know that, where in the feth does an extra 300,000 come from?

iproxtaco wrote:Yes Brother Coa, we know that, where in the feth does an extra 300,000 come from?

That's vehicle crews, Chaplin, honor guard etc.... there are around 250 - 300 more per chapter.

250 x 1000 or 300 x 1000 = 1.250.000 and 1.300.000. You get the idea....

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it stated somewhere that only infantry SMs count as SMs?

I didn't read that anywhere.

Even so, tanks are not driven by themselves ( their drivers go trough genetic modification and training to ), Dreds are not piloted by AI ( they have Space Marine inside it ) and books and chapter records are not cataloged themselves ( Librarians do that, and they almost never go into fight ). And if we add Honor Guard ( they are not included anywhere, not even in 1'st company ), Sternguard, Chaplain... we get a little larger number than 1000.

Alternatively, we get 1,000 total, with fewer infantry since a number of the SMs are employed as vehicle crew, librarians and honour guards.

Is there fluff to support your idea?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Eh, no, that's NOT how new chapters are formed, I at least have a source, you don't, just your opinion. The High Lords decide when new chapters are created, they aren't made simply because established chapters ask for them. They are also not formed through a captain and his entire fething company, it's formed through growing new progenoids and creating an entirely new set of marines, trained by veteran members from their source chapter. And no, the other 300,000 were not explained.

"The creation of a new Chapter is known as a Founding, and it does not happen overnight. Each Chapter is created from the gene-seed of an existing donor Chapter. The zygote is implanted in a human test-slave who spends his entire life in a static experimental capsule, immobile and serving nothing but as a medium which from two progenoids will develop. When the progenoids are developed, they are extracted from original test-slave and then implanted into another two test-slaves, producing four progenoids, and so on. It takes 55 years of reproduction to create a healthy set of 1,000 organs. These must be sanctioned officially by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra, speaking for the Emperor, who alone can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter."

This is how they are formed, and they also must be approved by AM as well as HLoT. Then again, there is no mention of captain anywhere? Then who do they use to produce a new chapter?

That pretty much proves my point, whilst discounting yours. Care to explain what AM and HLoT are? And it's explained IN THAT QUOTE, where the new chapter comes from, the 1000 new progenoid glands produced over 55 years.

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
I'm sorry to tell you this but you are very wrong, read Index Astartes. Chapters are only formed at the will of the High Lords of Terra (and ergo the Emperor), chapter's may petition the High Lords but it is not up to them.

That was I was saying. When chapter wants to made a successor they petition to High Lords. And if they approve then waht I have said happened - captain lead his men and found a new chapter of the Astartes. If not, then no matter.

What here does not go with that that you said?

That was not what you said, you went about it as if chapter masters contol new founding (as presented in fluff a chapter master successfully winning a petition to the High Lords of Terra for a founding is very rare, see CA) you have a theory with no fluff to support it. GW has released fluff that says that the Mechanicus make all new space marine chapters, they have not released information about a new chapter's training.

Even with the Carde theory (which is the closest one to your own) does not say that an entire company transfers over. It says that a chapter from the same geneseed family or the direct geneseed givers will send a small collection of veterans and a captain to help train and lead the new chapter.

Brother Coa wrote:
This is how they are formed, and they also must be approved by AM as well as HLoT. Then again, there is no mention of captain anywhere? Then who do they use to produce a new chapter?

You are pretty bad at debating if all you do is support the other side.

Every Chapter is required to send a tithe of geneseed to the Mechanicus/High Lords so that their purity can be monitored and new foundings can be made, the Mechanicus use vat grown humans to develop the organs for transplantation from geneseed stored in Mechanicus vaults.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Alternatively, we get 1,000 total, with fewer infantry since a number of the SMs are employed as vehicle crew, librarians and honour guards.

Is there fluff to support your idea?

The only fluff I had to support my claim is Space Marine army list. When you count all of them you get 1250 marines.

That include: all commanders + all 10 companies + support stuff.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes Brother Coa, we know that, where in the feth does an extra 300,000 come from?

That's vehicle crews, Chaplin, honor guard etc.... there are around 250 - 300 more per chapter.

250 x 1000 or 300 x 1000 = 1.250.000 and 1.300.000. You get the idea....

Why 300? You have your Chaplains, Librarians, Honor Guard, Pilots, that does not come to 300, it's about 50. Taking variances in standard numbers and casualties, as well as the lower number of Astartes in the scout company, we would get ROUGHLY 1,000,000, maybe a bit more, as in a few thousand more, or considerably less.

BluntmanDC wrote:
That was not what you said, you went about it as if chapter masters contol new founding (as presented in fluff a chapter master successfully winning a petition to the High Lords of Terra for a founding is very rare, see CA) you have a theory with no fluff to support it. GW has released fluff that says that the Mechanicus make all new space marine chapters, they have not released information about a new chapter's training.

You understand it all wrong.

Even with the Carde theory (which is the closest one to your own) does not say that an entire company transfers over. It says that a chapter from the same geneseed family or the direct geneseed givers will send a small collection of veterans and a captain to help train and lead the new chapter.

For that, I always thought that Chapter ( when they got permission or blessing from AM and HL ) when forming a successor give command of it to their best captain ( like Imperial Fist giving command of Black Templars to their finest champion ). It seems I was wrong and new leaders are pointed by someone else...

Kilkrazy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it stated somewhere that only infantry SMs count as SMs?

I didn't read that anywhere.

Even so, tanks are not driven by themselves ( their drivers go trough genetic modification and training to ), Dreds are not piloted by AI ( they have Space Marine inside it ) and books and chapter records are not cataloged themselves ( Librarians do that, and they almost never go into fight ). And if we add Honor Guard ( they are not included anywhere, not even in 1'st company ), Sternguard, Chaplain... we get a little larger number than 1000.

Alternatively, we get 1,000 total, with fewer infantry since a number of the SMs are employed as vehicle crew, librarians and honour guards.

Is there fluff to support your idea?

Upon closer examination the 1,000 rule appears to be a rough guideline for the number of line infantry in a chapter. However no chapter is ever at full strength. So overall the average number of Space Marines in Chapters around the galaxy remains about 1,000.
There's about 1,000 chapters so there's about a million Astartes. There's about a million Imperial Worlds. Astartes are depicted as Angels in Imperial Culture (and The Great Heresy is based on The Christian war in Heaven. Emperor=God. Horus=Satan Astartes=Angels). So like each person supposedly has their own Guardian Angel in the Imperium supposedly every world has its own Guardian Astartes. Of course, both are untrue.

iproxtaco wrote:
Why 300? You have your Chaplains, Librarians, Honor Guard, Pilots, that does not come to 300, it's about 50. Taking variances in standard numbers and casualties, as well as the lower number of Astartes in the scout company, we would get ROUGHLY 1,000,000, maybe a bit more, as in a few thousand more, or considerably less.

To make a long debate short, take SM army list and count all the marines in there. Include all commanders of the chapter, vehicle crews, specialist and veterans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Upon closer examination the 1,000 rule appears to be a rough guideline for the number of line infantry in a chapter. However no chapter is ever at full strength. So overall the average number of Space Marines in Chapters around the galaxy remains about 1,000.

So the reason they don't have more than 1000 is because they always suffer casualties and they are never at full strength?

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
That was not what you said, you went about it as if chapter masters contol new founding (as presented in fluff a chapter master successfully winning a petition to the High Lords of Terra for a founding is very rare, see CA) you have a theory with no fluff to support it. GW has released fluff that says that the Mechanicus make all new space marine chapters, they have not released information about a new chapter's training.

You understand it all wrong.

He understands fine. You don't. The chapters themselves don't decide when new ones are created, and have not influence, other than PERHAPS, training new recruits. Everyting else is handled by The Ad Mech.

Even with the Carde theory (which is the closest one to your own) does not say that an entire company transfers over. It says that a chapter from the same geneseed family or the direct geneseed givers will send a small collection of veterans and a captain to help train and lead the new chapter.

For that, I always thought that Chapter ( when they got permission or blessing from AM and HL ) when forming a successor give command of it to their best captain ( like Imperial Fist giving command of Black Templars to their finest champion ). It seems I was wrong and new leaders are pointed by someone else...

That's entirely different. The Imperial Fists were SPLIT UP. They had to give command to their best guy as he was the best candidate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Why 300? You have your Chaplains, Librarians, Honor Guard, Pilots, that does not come to 300, it's about 50. Taking variances in standard numbers and casualties, as well as the lower number of Astartes in the scout company, we would get ROUGHLY 1,000,000, maybe a bit more, as in a few thousand more, or considerably less.

To make a long debate short, take SM army list and count all the marines in there. Include all commanders of the chapter, vehicle crews, specialist and veterans.

Army List? As in a player made one? That's not an indication.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Upon closer examination the 1,000 rule appears to be a rough guideline for the number of line infantry in a chapter. However no chapter is ever at full strength. So overall the average number of Space Marines in Chapters around the galaxy remains about 1,000.

So the reason they don't have more than 1000 is because they always suffer casualties and they are never at full strength?

Yes actually.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Why 300? You have your Chaplains, Librarians, Honor Guard, Pilots, that does not come to 300, it's about 50. Taking variances in standard numbers and casualties, as well as the lower number of Astartes in the scout company, we would get ROUGHLY 1,000,000, maybe a bit more, as in a few thousand more, or considerably less.

To make a long debate short, take SM army list and count all the marines in there. Include all commanders of the chapter, vehicle crews, specialist and veterans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Upon closer examination the 1,000 rule appears to be a rough guideline for the number of line infantry in a chapter. However no chapter is ever at full strength. So overall the average number of Space Marines in Chapters around the galaxy remains about 1,000.

So the reason they don't have more than 1000 is because they always suffer casualties and they are never at full strength?

Yes.

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
That was not what you said, you went about it as if chapter masters contol new founding (as presented in fluff a chapter master successfully winning a petition to the High Lords of Terra for a founding is very rare, see CA) you have a theory with no fluff to support it. GW has released fluff that says that the Mechanicus make all new space marine chapters, they have not released information about a new chapter's training.

You understand it all wrong.

It would help if you wrote in an understandable way and help even more if you didn't change tack and back peddle when you are proven wrong. Reread what i quoted from you and what i said, you will find that i was understanding it well.

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
Even with the Carde theory (which is the closest one to your own) does not say that an entire company transfers over. It says that a chapter from the same geneseed family or the direct geneseed givers will send a small collection of veterans and a captain to help train and lead the new chapter.

For that, I always thought that Chapter ( when they got permission or blessing from AM and HL ) when forming a successor give command of it to their best captain ( like Imperial Fist giving command of Black Templars to their finest champion ). It seems I was wrong and new leaders are pointed by someone else...

You cannot use the 2nd founding as a basis for further founding, as it was unique due to the events that lead to it. The second founding had no new marines, it was about splitting the legions.

BluntmanDC wrote:
It would help if you wrote in an understandable way and help even more if you didn't change tack and back peddle when you are proven wrong. Reread what i quoted from you and what i said, you will find that i was understanding it well.

I was not wrong, I said that Chapters request the founding of a new. You said that they send a petition - that's the same as requesting.
I was only wrong about commanders. I look upon Imperial Fist who gave command of Black Templars to their champion. I though every other chapter does this, I thought wrond.

Vehicle crews don't exist in the army list.

The army list isn't fluff.

iproxtaco wrote:
He understands fine. You don't. The chapters themselves don't decide when new ones are created, and have not influence, other than PERHAPS, training new recruits. Everyting else is handled by The Ad Mech.

Petition is same as request.

That's entirely different. The Imperial Fists were SPLIT UP. They had to give command to their best guy as he was the best candidate.

Why different? Because they where split up? The new chapter is having the geenseed of the old chapter, it is natural to assume that they will appoint someone as new chapter master. And if he is not appointed by them then who is appointing them?

Army List? As in a player made one? That's not an indication.

Aren't all army lists standardizes by GW and rules?

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
It would help if you wrote in an understandable way and help even more if you didn't change tack and back peddle when you are proven wrong. Reread what i quoted from you and what i said, you will find that i was understanding it well.

I was not wrong, I said that Chapters request the founding of a new. You said that they send a petition - that's the same as requesting.
I was only wrong about commanders. I look upon Imperial Fist who gave command of Black Templars to their champion. I though every other chapter does this, I thought wrond.

No. He didn't.

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
It would help if you wrote in an understandable way and help even more if you didn't change tack and back peddle when you are proven wrong. Reread what i quoted from you and what i said, you will find that i was understanding it well.

I was not wrong, I said that Chapters request the founding of a new. You said that they send a petition - that's the same as requesting.
I was only wrong about commanders. I look upon Imperial Fist who gave command of Black Templars to their champion. I though every other chapter does this, I thought wrond.

I said that petitioning the High Lords was RARE and even in the few instances it would have happened the usual answer would be no, please read peoples posts this is getting ridiculous.

Brother Coa wrote:Why different? Because they where split up? The new chapter is having the geenseed of the old chapter, it is natural to assume that they will appoint someone as new chapter master. And if he is not appointed by them then who is appointing them?

THe first and second foundings are completely seperate and done in totally different ways to every other founding. Chapters have no say in what geneseed stock is used in new foundings.

BluntmanDC wrote:
You cannot use the 2nd founding as a basis for further founding, as it was unique due to the events that lead to it. The second founding had no new marines, it was about splitting the legions.

Ok, my mistake. Then how someone is becoming a chapter master to a new chapter?
He wins an Imperial loto?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He understands fine. You don't. The chapters themselves don't decide when new ones are created, and have not influence, other than PERHAPS, training new recruits. Everyting else is handled by The Ad Mech.

Petition is same as request.

That's entirely different. The Imperial Fists were SPLIT UP. They had to give command to their best guy as he was the best candidate.

Why different? Because they where split up? The new chapter is having the geenseed of the old chapter, it is natural to assume that they will appoint someone as new chapter master. And if he is not appointed by them then who is appointing them?

Army List? As in a player made one? That's not an indication.

Aren't all army lists standardizes by GW and rules?

He didn't say they did petition.
A new chapter has the gene-seed of a primarch not another chapter.
The High Lords or whoever is overseeing the founding appoints the Chapter Master.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The army list isn't fluff.

Not a fluff? Seriously

Then this thread has no point. 1000 marines per chapter it is ( BT and SW are exception ).
So Imperium have 1.000.000 SM, more or less.

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

BluntmanDC wrote:
I said that petitioning the High Lords was RARE and even in the few instances it would have happened the usual answer would be no, please read peoples posts this is getting ridiculous.

How RARE? One in 1000 years? 2000?

Brother Coa wrote:
So Imperium have 1.000.000 SM, more or less.

-∞ < 1,000,000 < ∞

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He understands fine. You don't. The chapters themselves don't decide when new ones are created, and have not influence, other than PERHAPS, training new recruits. Everyting else is handled by The Ad Mech.

Petition is same as request.

Slightly different actually, but there's no need to be pedantic as I said nothing about any possible differences in the above quote.

That's entirely different. The Imperial Fists were SPLIT UP. They had to give command to their best guy as he was the best candidate.

Why different? Because they where split up? The new chapter is having the geenseed of the old chapter, it is natural to assume that they will appoint someone as new chapter master. And if he is not appointed by them then who is appointing them?

Yes, it is different because they were split up rather than completely newly built. Yeah, someone, a veteran from the first company, not a Captain and an entire fething company, how does the source chapter replace him? Likely decided within the new chapter, independent of any other outside force.

Army List? As in a player made one? That's not an indication.

Aren't all army lists standardizes by GW and rules?

Sorry what? Army Lists? As in, the lists a player CREATES HIMSELF? Why would that give even the slightest indication of any sort of numbers?

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
I said that petitioning the High Lords was RARE and even in the few instances it would have happened the usual answer would be no, please read peoples posts this is getting ridiculous.

How RARE? One in 1000 years? 2000?

The only example of a successful petition was for the founding of The Disciples of Caliban by Anaziel, which as described as 'unheard of for a Chapter Master to make such a request'. So it is very, very rare.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
I said that petitioning the High Lords was RARE and even in the few instances it would have happened the usual answer would be no, please read peoples posts this is getting ridiculous.

How RARE? One in 1000 years? 2000?

The only example of a successful petition was for the founding of The Disciples of Caliban by Anaziel, which as described as 'unheard of for a Chapter Master to make such a request'. So it is very, very rare.

Thanks, I really thought that making a chapter is easier. Is it like that because they don't trust the SM? ( because of HH? )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
Aren't all army lists standardizes by GW and rules?

Sorry what? Army Lists? As in, the lists a player CREATES HIMSELF? Why would that give even the slightest indication of any sort of numbers?

What do you mean by 'army list then'?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get to the bottom of Coa but new Chapters are made all the time. They're made by The Inquisition whenever they feel like it. I can't think of a situation where a chapter would petition the high lords to split his chapter. If a chapter master finds he's got a few spare Marines lying around: he'll just keep them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to get to the bottom of Coa but new Chapters are made all the time. They're made by The Inquisition whenever they feel like it. I can't think of a situation where a chapter would petition the high lords to split his chapter. If a chapter master finds he's got a few spare Marines lying around: he'll just keep them.

Inquition can also made Space Marine chapters? I thought they only busy themselves with GK and that other chapters must petition to make another one, or the situation is so desperate for others to be made. What chapter have they founded?

Both points are wrong. Chapters are not made all the time, and The Inquisition do not make chapters whenever they feel like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They made the Excorsists.

iproxtaco wrote:What do you mean by 'army list then'?

Army list, like: 1'st company, 2'nd company, 3'rd company, Command etc...

Don't have one for every company of every chapter though, do we?

Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to get to the bottom of Coa but new Chapters are made all the time. They're made by The Inquisition whenever they feel like it. I can't think of a situation where a chapter would petition the high lords to split his chapter. If a chapter master finds he's got a few spare Marines lying around: he'll just keep them.

Inquition can also made Space Marine chapters? I thought they only busy themselves with GK and that other chapters must petition to make another one, or the situation is so desperate for others to be made. What chapter have they founded?

The Inquisition has only one recorded piece of fluff about founding a chapter and that is the Exorcists. However the Lord of the Inquistion is usually a member of the High Lords of Terra anyway and the founding of the Exorcists was fully supported by the Ad Mech as well, so it is a bad example.

Chapters pay a tithe of geneseed. It's stored somewhere (probably Mars) and when The IoM deems it neccesary they will create a chapter. Now whether its The High Lords who give the order or The Inquisition I'm not sure but I was under the Impression it was the Inquistion. Pretty much every founding after the second was made this way.

It isn't the Inquistion, their job is to fight the enemies of man and root out corruption, it is not to govern. The High Lords rule the IoM, they make all the important decisions (which includes foundings).

The Inquisition has plenty of power to effect governing. And just beause they aren't governors doesn't mean that they wouldn't have the authority to start an Astartes chapter.

I'm not saying they do, just that the two aren't logically contradictory.

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

I don't see how you figure that. Regardless, I'm not sure I subscribe to Mel's reserve company theory anyway.
Anyways besides that, in the latest retcon the 10th scout company can be any size. It's kinda dumb, like the 10th company could be 600 guys . This is because now "scout" means "new guy". In real life a scout is not an FNG he's usually one of your better men. I preferred the old fluff where scouts were elite specialists still beholden to codex Astartes rather than trainees on the farm team.

The lack of definition in the information about the most well covered faction makes me despair of ever finding a good answer to the question.

There isn't that much murkiness. Somehow Dakka makes things less clear. There's about one thousand chapters, one thousand strong - GW has said directly a thousand times.

Yes but what does 1,000 strong mean?

I was under the impression that the point of the Codex Guillimanus was to split the SMs down and limit their numbers in order to prevent rebellions.

A chapter of 1,000 infantry plus undetermined numbers of vehicle crews and librarians who can be fielded as infantry is not limited.

A chapter of 1,000 all ranks and capacities is limited.

I have this to add:

Blood Angels codex page 9 shows a breakdown of the chapters forces.

"For logistical reasons each squad is assumed to have a nominal strength of 10 battle-brothers, although battlefield attrition and instability caused by the flaw inevitably reduces this tally. .... Each company will also have a death company, although this is considered an auxiliary force".

This shows two things, that Death Company are not considered marines and that their are 'auxiliary' forces. Presumably not a rare thing in the Imperium.

The page goes on to break down all the companies and such. Vehicle crews are not mentioned, although vehicles are. Here's the total listing:

Chapter Enqerries and Servitors = 900

Chapter Master = 1
Sanguinary Priests = 22
Chaplains = 14
Sanguinary Guards = 30
Techmarines = 36
Predators = 20
Baal Predators = 18
Vindicators = 5
Whirlwinds =7
Land Raiders = 43
Stormravens = 51
Rapid Strike Vessels =16
Thunderhawk Gunships = 36
Thunderhawk Transporters = 3
Epistolaries = 7
Codiciers = 11
Lexiacum = 8
Acolytum = 5
Librarian Dreadnoughts =5
Veterans = 102
Furiouso Dreads =5
Assault Squads = 18
Tactical Squads = 44
Devastator Squads = 18
Dreads = 21
Scout Squads = 10
Unassigned Neophytes = 56

------- Now, there are a few things to assume from this:
I'm not sure what the different ranks of librarians are, e.g. at what point you become a space marine and not an aide. I'll assume Acolytum aren't and Lexiacum aren't full space marines. In addition, I'll exclude the neophytes from all calcuations, and the death company since they are BA specific.

There are two paths to go down, crewed vehicles (and dreads) or not.

Ignoring vehicles and dreads, here' another breakdown of numbers:

Chapter HQ = 91
Veterans and Sang Guard = 132
Assault Marines = 180
Tactical Marines = 440
Devastator Marines = 180
Scouts = 100

Total = 1123 Marines in the BA chapter, exclude DC and vehicles.

-------------------------------------------------

The next route is with vehicle crews and such, I'll have to take some guesses here, the numbers in brackets are my estimated crew and the numbers afterwards are total crew:

Chapter HQ = 91
Veterans and Sang Guard = 132
Assault Marines = 180
Tactical Marines = 440
Devastator Marines = 180
Scouts = 100

Dreads (1) = 31
Predators (3) = 60
Baal Predators (3) = 54
Vindicators (3)= 15
Whirlwinds (3)= 21
Land Raiders (4)= 172
Stormravens (2) = 102
Rapid Strike Vessels (5)=80
Thunderhawk Gunships (5) = 180
Thunderhawk Transporters (5) = 15

Therefore, with Vehicles and their crew (excluding servitors but imagining drivers and such are full battle-brothers):
1853 space marines in the BA chapter.

Make of that what you will

Lunarman

Thank you lunarman, i was building myself up to doing that but now you have saved me the trouble

There is a really good B&C thread about this, but im not a member so i cant use the search function :(

I have a better question. How many guardsmen are there?

I read somewhere there are about 1,000,000 marines. Some chapters have more like BT. GK have more than most chapters but noone knows how many there are exactly. Ill find the source of my number later when I remember where I read it.

There are lots of guardsmen...
Like lots...
They have enough guardsmen to crush every single SM chapter in a tide of bodies and steel.

Let's assume the following:

1 million planets in the IoM.
Average population of 100,000,000 per planet
Military participation rate of 0.5% (similar to modern Europe)
Weight per man including equipment = 100Kg
2,000,000 SMs in the IoM

There are 5x10^11 IG.
That is 250,000 per single SM.

If the lift capacity were available, each SM could be buried under a pile of IG weighing 25,000 metric tons.

First of all the IoM's military participation is much higher than modern Europe. Secondly, what the heck are talking about? That's one crazy tangent you went off on.

But it is a damn good tangent!
However, the percentage militarisation is an estimated average across the whole IOM, considering hives contain billions and agri-worlds don't have a tithe, 0.5% seems reasonable, if slightly low.

Yes they have the power to effect governing, they do have power within the High Lords Of Terra as they have a high lord in the council (but their job is not governing).

However it is the High Lords as a whole that decide if a new founding can happen (as presented in multiple fluff sources). So the Inquisition cannot authorise the founding of new chapters without the support of the High Council (the Exorcists were part of the 13th founding and not a lone founding by the Inquisition). Add to the fact that the tithed geneseed is stored in Mechanicus vaults it would make it very difficult for even a large group of Inquisitors to get access to it for a 'secret' founding.

Inquistion is pretty involved in Governing in that they can remove an Imperial Governor whenever they feel life it.

Not that I don't believe you but what are the multiple sources that say it's the High Lords that make Chapters?

CDA 'Anazail made a strong request of the High Lords of Terra for a Chapter to raised'

Index Astartes vol 1 'New Chapters are only created by an Imperial edict of the High Lords of Terra, and, some whisper, by the sole will of the Emperor of Manind. The task of actually assembling these Chapters always belongs to the Adeptus Mechanicus.'

Sounds good to me. In my mind, because the Inquistion are the guys out in the field and understand the situation "on the ground" so to speak they often request it, High Lords rubber stamp it, Mechanicus makes it happens.

The High lords are made up of people with alot of knowledge of what is going on in IoM through their own departments. The Master of the Administratum, Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard (if part of the council at the time), Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy (if part of the council at the time) would all have a very good idea about were new founding should go.

Kilkrazy wrote:Let's assume the following:

1 million planets in the IoM.
Average population of 100,000,000 per planet
Military participation rate of 0.5% (similar to modern Europe)
Weight per man including equipment = 100Kg
2,000,000 SMs in the IoM

There are 5x10^11 IG.
That is 250,000 per single SM.

If the lift capacity were available, each SM could be buried under a pile of IG weighing 25,000 metric tons.

I thought i was exaggerating but it turns out i'm not... go figure.

Graham McNiell wrote:(Ultramarines, Warriors of Ultramar) at full occupation, the monastry was home to the thousand battle brothers of the chapter and their officers...

Suggests that officers are not counted as part of the 1000 marines in a chapter, so the estimates of 1100-1300 are acceptable depending upon how many officers are needed to manage a chapter of SM.
I presume officers are captains, librarians, chaplains, techmarines, the master of the forge, honour guard and the chapter master

Realistically there could be 2,000,000 SMs since the officers, librarians and vehicle crews aren't counted as SMs but clearly are, having power armour and so on.

Kilkrazy wrote:Realistically there could be 2,000,000 SMs since the officers, librarians and vehicle crews aren't counted as SMs but clearly are, having power armour and so on.

Where did we get the idea that vehicle crews and such aren't counted as Space Marines when GW makes their statements about numbers, anyway?

In terms of basic codex fluff, there's 1,000,000 with the (1000 chapters of 1000). Getting more complicated and taking into account larger than average chapters (Black Templars), chapter losses, destroyed chapters, smaller then average chapters, etc. it's probably 600,000-800,000. That number is of course a shot in the dark, beyond the basic 1 million figure there's no reliable number out there.

Seaward wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Realistically there could be 2,000,000 SMs since the officers, librarians and vehicle crews aren't counted as SMs but clearly are, having power armour and so on.

Where did we get the idea that vehicle crews and such aren't counted as Space Marines when GW makes their statements about numbers, anyway?

From Lunarman's post further above in this page. That covers Blood Angels so may not be universally applicable.

I would welcome a definitive fluff source to confirm the point either way. Perhaps there isn't one available.

Codex Space Marines shows a full Ultramarine roster that is above 1000 and they are the most Codex chapter obviously.

Revenent Reiko wrote:Thank you lunarman, i was building myself up to doing that but now you have saved me the trouble

There is a really good B&C thread about this, but im not a member so i cant use the search function :(

Ask and ye shall receive .

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

There are four reserve companies, each one having 100 marines.

A-P wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Thank you lunarman, i was building myself up to doing that but now you have saved me the trouble

There is a really good B&C thread about this, but im not a member so i cant use the search function :(

Ask and ye shall receive .

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Thank You A-P!!
This is exactly what i meant!

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes but what does 1,000 strong mean?

I was under the impression that the point of the Codex Guillimanus was to split the SMs down and limit their numbers in order to prevent rebellions.

A chapter of 1,000 infantry plus undetermined numbers of vehicle crews and librarians who can be fielded as infantry is not limited.

A chapter of 1,000 all ranks and capacities is limited.

Well, if you want an exact detailing of every single Marine, I'm afraid that you won't find it as no such thing has ever been published. We can hyptherize, or even theorize (based on peer review, natch), but everything is an approximation modified, highly, by in-fluff casualties and unreported information. A traditional miodern military has about twelve non-combatants per combatant, for example. How many people do the Ultramarines have making drop pods, or mining for metal to be turned into bolter shells? Leaving out the non-combat support staff, here's what we know, based on the Codex.

First, a fully-formed chapter has ten companies... 1st company is veteran, 2-5 are "battle" companies and handle the usual combat load, 6 and 7 are 'tactical' companies for reserves, 8 is the assault company, 9 is the devastator company, and 10 is for scouts/training.

Each company has a captain and his command staff. Each company has a chaplain. Each company has a librarian. Chaplains and librarians used to get a support staff as well, both of command staff marines and younger chaplains and librarians (There are four Librarian ranks... the list above that lead to some confusion was using these official names. Master Librarian is the highest, Epistolary is a level 3 and tops of all but 1st company, lexicanum was 2nd highest, codexi were rookies) ... Apothecaries also had a sub-structure, as did techmarines. Servitors are all over the place, bacing up tech marines. There are also commanders under the captain (not reflected in 4th ed charts, sadly) that each run 20 men. These *also* have a retinue.

In *theory*, attack craft (Bikes, attack bikes, land speeders) are crewed by assault marines while tanks (Predators, land raiders) are crewed by devastators and/or tech marines (Fluff has drifted over the years). These are pulled from the infantry of the company or drawn from the 8th and 9th companies, as needed.

So, what does it all mean?

Well, firstly, ten companies, each with ten squads of ten men = 1000. This is the number that's usually given for a chapter. Command staff is over and beyond this. At the very least, you get a Captain per company, a Chaplain per company, a Techmarine per company, and an Apothecary per company. More realistically, each command staff member has substaff... 4 under a Captain, 2-4 for the rest. The first company's command staff is a level higher (Captain = CHaper Master, Librarian = Chief Librarian, etc) as befits their rank. Dreadnoughts aren't counted towards the overall total, nor are servitors that can be combative (Servitors are often potential Marines who wiped out in training or whose bodies rejected the genetic treatments.) nor dos it count, say, spacecraft crews (Navigators and so on)

So, the *actual* number varies, both with casualties and with command staff.

As such, no true, concrete counting can be made.

You can find a few snapshots ... the codexies will usually include a breakdown of a chapter (most often Ultramarines), detailing the names of some command staff and showing actual numbers of dreads and so forth. Those numbers are pretty much obsolete as soon as they're posted, but hey.

SO, in conclusion, you can say "A thousand chapters of a thousand men", or a million Marines, and you can get a number good enough to work with.

Founding new chapters would take up a new post, but I can cover that if you'd like.

Kilkrazy wrote:

I would welcome a definitive fluff source to confirm the point either way. Perhaps there isn't one available.

Codex space marines, page 88, Antaro chronus.

He's a tank commander and at this "fluff" page described as member of the arsenal. ( second paragraph ).
So tank crews of the arsenal ( predators, vindicators, whirlwinds, Land Raider ) are part of the arsenal, not the companies.
Additionally , he has 50+ marines under his command. ( last paragraph ).



The case of more than 1000 marines is pretty solid as the companys alone provide 1000.

Codex space marines, page 17, UM:

10 companies a 100 marines. + arsenal, apothecarion, etc => 1000 + 97 + MC = ~ 1100 without chaplains, crews, command squads...
Again at 9 companies > adds 54+x > ~ 1150 without the fleet and a unknown number of chaplains.

So I was right after all, there are more than 1.000.000 Space Marines in the galaxy. The final resime of the counting on a line up was: "The final number of Marines in a Chapter is impossible to determine, it is our best guess that the number of Marines in a full strength Codex Chapter is in the region of 1400-1600 warriors, far in excess of the mythical 1000 so often quoted both in the fluff and in the 40K community. Hopefully this article has gone some way to showing a more realistic assessment of the strength of the Astartes."

resime?

purplefood wrote:resime?

This:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:resime?

This:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

I was actually wondering what you meant...
Resime isn't a word.

I didn't know how to spell it, thought it was the right word...
Let's call it a research results....

purplefood wrote:resime?

I'd guess he meant resümee thats summary for you guys.

1hadhq wrote:

purplefood wrote:resime?

I'd guess he meant resümee thats summary for you guys.

I know what resume means thanks.
Summary makes much more sense...

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

There are four reserve companies, each one having 100 marines.

If you wanted to make a larger chapter, just make more reserve companies or larger reserve companies.

The point I am trying to get at is there is either a "legal" limit to the size of an SM chapter, or there isn't. I was under the impression that the legal limit was 1,000 and it was pretty strictly enforced. I don't mind if the legal limit is 1,357 or something, but no-one seems to know what it actually is.

Perhaps GW have never stated the limit.

Kilkrazy wrote:

The point I am trying to get at is there is either a "legal" limit to the size of an SM chapter, or there isn't. I was under the impression that the legal limit was 1,000 and it was pretty strictly enforced. I don't mind if the legal limit is 1,357 or something, but no-one seems to know what it actually is.

Perhaps GW have never stated the limit.

No strictly enforced "legal" limits. More a traditional way of organizing kept and only those that stray too far ( HuronB., tyrant of badab ) caught and taken care of.

From Rowboat G. in Age of Darkness said about his newly written codex:

'but your teachings'
'Are yet flawed', said Gulliman. 'No one,not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed.'

Enforcing a exactly defined "legal" limit would not be in the spirit of the codex...

I'm not sure that drawing up a TO&E counts as sparks of heroism on the battlefield.

Kilkrazy wrote:If you wanted to make a larger chapter, just make more reserve companies or larger reserve companies.

Which would go against the Codex Astartes.

1st company = veterans
2nd-5th companies = battle companies
6th-9th companies = reserve companies
10th company = scout company

With the exception of the scout company, each of these is restricted to 100 combat-ready Astartes plus command personnel (captain, chaplain, apothecary, standard bearer, etc).

The 1000 limit does not seem to also include the command staff based on the codex's organization chart-- headquarters staff as it were are shown to be outside of the 1000 marines.

The headquarters staff would seem to be be the chapter master, the ten captains (senior officers), techmarines, librarians, and non-combat personnel in the form of serfs. It probably doesn't itself exceed 50 or so.

I think the codex astartes IS enforced on younger chapters, but older ones such as Space Wolves and Black Templars get away with things that other chapters can't because of their history.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

There are four reserve companies, each one having 100 marines.

If you wanted to make a larger chapter, just make more reserve companies or larger reserve companies.

The point I am trying to get at is there is either a "legal" limit to the size of an SM chapter, or there isn't. I was under the impression that the legal limit was 1,000 and it was pretty strictly enforced. I don't mind if the legal limit is 1,357 or something, but no-one seems to know what it actually is.

Perhaps GW have never stated the limit.

The reality is that the games designers who came up with the idea of a hard personnel limit of 1k per chapter didn't really have any experience of logistics. Which is why space marines actually have 10 men in a squad, 10 squads in a company, 10 companies in a chapter . . . but each company has a command squad and a captain, and the chapter has some librarians and chaplains and techmarines and dreadnoughts . . . and presumably they need 20 more space marines per company to drive the rhinos and 3 space marines or so to operate every tank . . .

Various authors have tried to explain this sort of thing, adding in mortal support staff, etc but there still seem to be a lot of gunships and vehicles being flown by mysterious, nameless marines who don't get the 'face time' of squad members. Perhaps you could explain it with the space marines' (bizarre) system of 4 battle companies and then reserve companies, who presumably provide the drivers.

So there is no 'actual' number of space marines, because the people who determine that number never really thought it through. Don't even get me started on how impractical it would be to replace casualties in such small forces with such long training pipelines, or why the imperium seems to use them as front line infantry.

Sorry, but I was just reading some short stories about space marines. They all seem to lose half their men whenever they do a mission. They should have been wiped out by attrition long since.

Just saying it one more time, scale and logistics in 40k is not meant to stand up to scrutiny. The numbers are only written in for the look of the thing.

I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

Good job on reading the rest of the thread.

purplefood wrote:

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

Good job on reading the rest of the thread.

I credit myself with not having to read internet forums, just pay attention to the fluff.

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

This. It has been said there is less than 1 Space Marine for every world in the Imperium.

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you wanted to make a larger chapter, just make more reserve companies or larger reserve companies.

Which would go against the Codex Astartes.

1st company = veterans
2nd-5th companies = battle companies
6th-9th companies = reserve companies
10th company = scout company

With the exception of the scout company, each of these is restricted to 100 combat-ready Astartes plus command personnel (captain, chaplain, apothecary, standard bearer, etc).

The 1000 limit does not seem to also include the command staff based on the codex's organization chart-- headquarters staff as it were are shown to be outside of the 1000 marines.

The headquarters staff would seem to be be the chapter master, the ten captains (senior officers), techmarines, librarians, and non-combat personnel in the form of serfs. It probably doesn't itself exceed 50 or so.

I think the codex astartes IS enforced on younger chapters, but older ones such as Space Wolves and Black Templars get away with things that other chapters can't because of their history.

OK that means we are back to 900 SMs plus command staff per chapter. Assuming one command model per nine SM models, we have our 1,000 SMs per chapter. Excepting the few chapters like BT who refuse to follow the codex.

Given the chapters who are below full strength, the number of SMs is probably between 750,000 and 1,000,000.

Yeah, We've come full circle.

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

Good job on reading the rest of the thread.

I credit myself with not having to read internet forums, just pay attention to the fluff.

I was pointing out how that has already been mentioned and then disproved several times in this thread alone.

All right, I have done a little counting with Blood Andgels army as they are "the first legion to adopt codex astartes and to follow it accordingly." Here is total summary:

Tactical Squads - 44x5, x10 = 220, 440
Assault Squads - 18x5, x10 = 90, 180
Devastators - 18x5, x10 = 90, 180
Scouts - 10x5, x10 = 50+56 Unassinged Neophytes = 106 total, 156
Veterans - 101
Techmarines - 35
Chaplans - 13
Sanguinary priest - 21
Sanguinary Guards - 29

Total = 705 ( with 5 marines per squad )

With 10 per squad = 1155 ( with 10 marines per squad )

Predators - 20+18 Ball Predators = 38 total
Vindicators - 5
Whirlwind - 7
Land Raiders - 43
Drednoughts - 21+10 Furioso = 31 total

So that's 1155 marines if each tactical, assault and devastator squad have 10 marines. In addition to all of this, every company or strike force have 1 squad of Death Company with them. That makes 14 more squads of Death Company to this number...

So the Blood Angels have a little more than 1200 marines. I have also done by number x5 per squad, but the codex states it should be 10 per squad, aldo this number is not stable because of the losses.

And this is the chapter that follow codex astartes accordingly.

Let's look at the Space Marine Codex?

1st Company = 97 marines, + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (so 106-111)
2nd Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (113 as per Fall of Damnos)
3rd Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (108-113)
4th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 4 Dreads (110-115)
5th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 1 Dread (107-112)
6th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 4 Dreads (110-115)
7th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 3 Dreads (109-114)
8th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad (105-110)
9th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 7 Dreads (112-117)
10th Company = ? No set size ?

Chapter Command = 29 + 1 Chaplain per Company (or just Battle Company?) (35-40)
Fleet Command = min of 1 SM per vessel (54+)
Apothecarion = 13
Librarius = 28
Armoury = not sure if rank marines drive these or they are assigned personnel (28-136)

So that's a minimum of 1138, max of 1291 (neither number includes scouts or any additional fleet personnel) for the Ultramarines

Do Dreads count?

Kilkrazy wrote:Do Dreads count?

Don't know... I made sure the numbers were transparent so that you could include/exclude them at desired (I did include them in the totals). I certainly think they should count, but the Codex makes it clear that they just serve the company they were part of outside the normal squad matrix. So would I count them as strength... you bet (maybe as more than one marine)!, but as part of the "core" number of a Codex Chapter, probably not (though most Chapters, clearly, have them).

Sorry if this has already been posted but in the 4th edition rulebook it says there is "less than one space marine for every world in the imperium", and "Just over one million worlds" in the Imperium, so I assumed that meant about a milliion space marines.

Ashryu wrote:Sorry if this has already been posted but in the 4th edition rulebook it says there is "less than one space marine for every world in the imperium", and "Just over one million worlds" in the Imperium, so I assumed that meant about a milliion space marines.

You got it all wrong. If it says: "less than one space marine for every world in the Imperium", that means that there isn't even 1 Space Marine per Imperial world. Maybe there are half Marine per Imperial world. Less than one means less than one, half, quarter, witch just raise their numbers anyway...