We know that for 5.56 M16 ammo power output is around 1,679 J - 1,767 J .
And for 7.62 AK47 is around 2,073.6 J - 2,460 J .
.475 A&M Magnum is around 10,900 J - 12,248 J.
How much in Jules would be power output of standard Imperial Lasgun for:
When determining this, keep in mind that even on low settings, the lasgun effectively causes a tiny plasma explosion where it hits as it superheats the air and material around the "impact" location (thus why it seems to cause impact in the first place). It then flash-boils the blood around the impact wound, causing wounds probably roughly equivalent to hydrostatic shock.
On normal settings, it's capable of removing limbs and heads from bodies. On highest settings, it presents a problem for even advanced body armor, but has few shots, something like ~25 per charge pack.
Melissia wrote:On normal settings, it's capable of removing limbs and heads from bodies.
I know in Dark heresy a lasgun basically causes you to catch fire, have an epileptic fit and then die. But I haven't read any other source where lasguns blow up and removes heads and limbs.
Even in Guants Ghosts, where their allies are using High settings, the las shots are overkill and basically punching straight through the cultists. But they aren't decapitating them or blowing them up.
I think this will be pretty difficult to put a realistic number on considering the smallest ‘weaponised’ laser is the size of your average Smeg fridge/freezer and is fitted in a stripped out F16....even that is only supposed to be used for missile defence and needs to pointed and held for a number of seconds rather than sending a packet/bolt of energy….
Melissia wrote:On normal settings, it's capable of removing limbs and heads from bodies.
I know in Dark heresy a lasgun basically causes you to catch fire, have an epileptic fit and then die. But I haven't read any other source where lasguns blow up and removes heads and limbs.
Even in Guants Ghosts, where their allies are using High settings, the las shots are overkill and basically punching straight through the cultists. But they aren't decapitating them or blowing them up.
If it can burn a hole through a body, they can decapitate limbs, considering the chest is denser than an arm.
Melissia wrote:On normal settings, it's capable of removing limbs and heads from bodies.
I know in Dark heresy a lasgun basically causes you to catch fire, have an epileptic fit and then die. But I haven't read any other source where lasguns blow up and removes heads and limbs.
Even in Guants Ghosts, where their allies are using High settings, the las shots are overkill and basically punching straight through the cultists. But they aren't decapitating them or blowing them up.
If it can burn a hole through a body, they can decapitate limbs, considering the chest is denser than an arm.
Burning a hole isn't the same as cutting. To cut you have to either move the laser back and forth to cut through like a saw or burn through one section at a time. A particularly powerful laser might cause a localised explosion due to over-heating, but it's unlikely. To take off a limb you need a huge amount of kinetic or thermal energy.
It is when the method of applying damage is the same. If the heat is strong enough to burn a a hole straight through the torso, a shot of the same strength will burn through an arm, thus making it fall off, but it depends on the area the shot covers. If it hits an arm straight on, when it's parallel to the ground, it will burn through.
Really? Why are than people assuming that modern body armor can protect them from that shot?
Everything that produce mini-plasma explosions on impact is damn scary if you ask me. .475 round could pierce literary every armor we have today, am I right?
I'm not completely sure that's the best way to calculate the power output of a laser (a photon, though being a minimally massive particle, behaves as a wave). I'd use plank's law: E=h*f. So, a single photon of white-blue light (IG issue, if I remember correctly from Gaunt's Ghosts) transports about 1.655*10^-27 j, while for red light (traitors) we have a 9.457*10^28 j output.
Obviously a las-bolt is a beam of multiple coherent quantums (or quanta?) of focused light, which means things can add up pretty fast. Which does nothing to answer your question.
Now, let's change point of view. Now, let us suppose a normal lasgun battery can be compared to the best modern-days nanotubes and carbon aerogel super-capacitors (with a charge Capacity of up to 6000+ Farads) (I mean, sure las-packs are batteries, but they behave as both batteries and capacitors: they are damaged by fast charging (like batteries), but can be recharged almost indefinetly and provide pulsed energy (releasing great amounts of power in very short times (high power density) like capacitors. Well, lasguns could have internal capacitors, like the flash-light of a photocamera, but they would need recharging times between shots, so bye-bye full-auto or even semy-auto fire)); let's assume they have even some structure similarities to modern days capacitors.
That would mean up to a volume/energy density of 100,000 j/l and, for a battery of about 2x5x10 cm (0,1 l), 10,000 j of energy. Which, for about 40 shots on lowest setting (if I remember correctly form DH), would mean a lousy 250 j per shot. If we consider the mass/energy density we could easily have up to 100,000 J for a 200 g battery, which means 2500+ J per shot on minimum setting. With modern day (even if cutting-edge) tecnology. Add 38k years to that...
Yep, 60. And that's not the weakest setting, but nominal setting.
Although the primer (IIUP) gives a rate of fire for the lasgun that is slower than most modern assault rifles, it's still more than enough at 220 shots per minute.
I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that they produce 1.21 gigawatts of power.
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Melissia wrote:
Although the primer (IIUP) gives a rate of fire for the lasgun that is slower than most modern assault rifles, it's still more than enough at 220 shots per minute.
Melissia wrote:I know for a fact that the lasgun can decapitate astartes, so don't think it can't also go through a human limb.
That was after basically shoving it in the astartes face.
I'm sure you can decapitate a human with a modern assualt rifle if you blow their neck to bits enough.
Some people seem to think that Lasguns are super-laser Deathstars and that Flak Armour is near-invincible.
Because they buy into internet crap.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm sure you can decapitate a human with a modern assualt rifle if you blow their neck to bits enough.
No, it wasn't shoved in the astartes' face.
Sure, if you hit it enough, you'd cut a human's head off with bullets... probably. But a single shot blowing a human's head off would require a rather high caliber weapon. And that's for HUMANS. Astartes aren't human. Their bones are reinforced with non-natural chemicals to make them particularly durable. It's part of their chemical enhancements that go along with the genetic and hormonal enhancements they get. Their ribcage is described as an armor plate in and of itself, for example.
Cut the trolling crap. Noone said that lasguns were uberdeathlasers, we said that lasguns aren't weak.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm sure you can decapitate a human with a modern assualt rifle if you blow their neck to bits enough.
No, it wasn't shoved in the astartes' face.
Sure, if you hit it enough, you'd cut a human's head off with bullets... probably. But a single shot blowing a human's head off would require a rather high caliber weapon. And that's for HUMANS. Astartes aren't human. Their bones are reinforced with non-natural chemicals to make them particularly durable. It's part of their chemical enhancements that go along with the genetic and hormonal enhancements they get. Their ribcage is described as an armor plate in and of itself, for example.
It wasn't a single shot, it was a lasgun, on max setting, being poured out on full auto. I'm sure if you emptied a magazine of any assualt rifle into a person's neck then it wouldn't be attached at the end.
Cut the trolling crap. Noone said that lasguns were uberdeathlasers, we said that lasguns aren't weak.
And no one thinks that lasguns are actually flashlights or that flak armour might as well be cardboard. So how about you quit acting like a child and try to have a reasonable discussion without instantly resorting to attacks on the intelligence of peope who don't agree with you.
Emperors Faithful wrote:It wasn't a single shot, it was a lasgun, on max setting, being poured out on full auto. I'm sure if you emptied a magazine of any assualt rifle into a person's neck then it wouldn't be attached at the end.
It was one shot that took its head off. Not a full auto burst-- one shot.
Emperors Faithful wrote:It wasn't a single shot, it was a lasgun, on max setting, being poured out on full auto. I'm sure if you emptied a magazine of any assualt rifle into a person's neck then it wouldn't be attached at the end.
It was one shot that took its head off. Not a full auto burst-- one shot.
We are talking about the same Guants Ghosts novel, right?
Emperors Faithful wrote:It wasn't a single shot, it was a lasgun, on max setting, being poured out on full auto. I'm sure if you emptied a magazine of any assualt rifle into a person's neck then it wouldn't be attached at the end.
It was one shot that took its head off. Not a full auto burst-- one shot.
We are talking about the same Guants Ghosts novel, right?
Emperors Faithful wrote:It wasn't a single shot, it was a lasgun, on max setting, being poured out on full auto. I'm sure if you emptied a magazine of any assualt rifle into a person's neck then it wouldn't be attached at the end.
It was one shot that took its head off. Not a full auto burst-- one shot.
We are talking about the same Guants Ghosts novel, right?
The first one, First and Only.
Yes, where the traitor Astartes comes out of the door/elevator/elevatus.
Emperors Faithful wrote:It wasn't a single shot, it was a lasgun, on max setting, being poured out on full auto. I'm sure if you emptied a magazine of any assualt rifle into a person's neck then it wouldn't be attached at the end.
It was one shot that took its head off. Not a full auto burst-- one shot.
We are talking about the same Guants Ghosts novel, right?
The first one, First and Only.
Yes, where the traitor Astartes comes out of the door/elevator/elevatus.
Even Abnett can go overboard from time to time. After all, how many times have we seen Guardsmen get hit with lasfire in the novels and pull through?
Not often unless the lasbolt hit armor. That lasbolt hit bare neck when it popped his head off. Frequently those that did survive a direct hit to an unarmored area they were permanently injured.
Melissia wrote:Not often unless the lasbolt hit armor. That lasbolt hit bare neck when it popped his head off. Frequently those that did survive a direct hit to an unarmored area they were permanently injured.
As you would expect, though there is a difference between actually blowing someone's head off with a single shot and destroying their jaw (which is what happened to a Tanith trooper).
Melissia wrote:Yes, it would. THe trooper wasn't hit head on by that lasbolt.
If a las-shot is as powerful as your claiming it is (single shots tearing off limbs), it wouldn't need to for it to be fatal.
Yes it would. As you noted earlier, the shot was indeed at high power. Most lasguns have, according to the IIUP, a low and high seting. The high setting has about twenty five shots, if the DKoK fluff is to be believed, which is just shy of three times the power requirement of a normal shot given that in DArk Heresy a lasgun charge pack has sixty shots.
Melissia wrote:Yes, it would. THe trooper wasn't hit head on by that lasbolt.
If a las-shot is as powerful as your claiming it is (single shots tearing off limbs), it wouldn't need to for it to be fatal.
Yes it would. As you noted earlier, the shot was indeed at high power. Most lasguns have, according to the IIUP, a low and high seting.
And according to the IG Codex, lasguns with variable settings are relatively rare (so far as lasguns can be rare).
The high setting has about twenty five shots, if the DKoK fluff is to be believed, which is just shy of three times the power requirement of a normal shot given that in DArk Heresy a lasgun charge pack has sixty shots.
And?
If a single shot alone would be powerful enough to not only cut through an astartes neck, but decapitate it a human wouldn't stand a chance if they took a hit like that. A shot to the jaw would blow more than half their face away.
The IIUP makes it out that the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun, IE the standard issue lasgun, has variable settings. That one is NOT rare, in fact, it's the most common variant.
So you're basically arguing that a lasgun has the same striking power at both low and high settings? Because your last post makes no sense at all.
Melissia wrote:The IIUP makes it out that the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun, IE the standard issue lasgun, has variable settings. That one is NOT rare, in fact, it's the most common variant.
The IG Codex says that the Armageddon and Mars pattern lasguns don't have the variable settings, that it's found in the rarer (A-someting?) Triplex pattern.
So you're basically arguing that a lasgun has the same striking power at both low and high settings? Because your last post makes no sense at all.
I didn't mention low settings, and it doesn't specify what Mertt was hit by.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also don't see any other instances of limbs being blown off by single las-shots.
Emperors Faithful wrote:The IG Codex says that the Armageddon and Mars pattern lasguns don't have the variable settings, that it's found in the rarer (A-someting?) Triplex pattern.
A pattern which is mentioned nowhere else in Imperial Guard lore, not even in Deathwatch.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I didn't mention low settings, and it doesn't specify what Mertt was hit by.
No, but if it didn't blow off half his face, I think it's safe to assume he was hit by a lower power lasbolt.
Emperors Faithful wrote:The IG Codex says that the Armageddon and Mars pattern lasguns don't have the variable settings, that it's found in the rarer (A-someting?) Triplex pattern.
A pattern which is mentioned nowhere else in Imperial Guard lore, not even in Deathwatch.
The Triplex pattern was an example, the note mentions a few other makes. But the Armageddon and Mars patter don't have the variable settings.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I didn't mention low settings, and it doesn't specify what Mertt was hit by.
No, but if it didn't blow off half his face, I think it's safe to assume he was hit by a lower power lasbolt.
A lower power lasbolt, or one on medium settings?
And I'll ask again, where are these other instances of lasguns blowing off people's limbs?
Emperors Faithful wrote: Some people seem to think that Lasguns are super-laser Deathstars and that Flak Armour is near-invincible. Because they buy into internet crap.
And some people are thinking that Guardsman die simply by spotting them. Because of the internet crap.
And why do you think that Lasgun shot can't tare limb or head? It's mini plasma explosion. Shoot it on one unarmored guy and he is done for. And how many troops ware face armor? Today's ordinary guns can tare human arm or limb ( .50cal can, or maybe even .457 magnum caliber ). Why energy weapon cannot?
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Some people seem to think that Lasguns are super-laser Deathstars and that Flak Armour is near-invincible.
Because they buy into internet crap.
And some people are thinking that Guardsman die simply by spotting them.
Because of the internet crap.
And why do you think that Lasgun shot can't tare limb or head? It's mini plasma explosion. Shoot it on one unarmored guy and he is done for. And how many troops ware face armor?
Today's ordinary guns can tare human arm or limb ( .50cal can, or maybe even .457 magnum caliber ). Why energy weapon cannot?
Because modern weaponry works via kinetic force. Energy weapons do not have anywhere near enough mass to create that kind of trauma.
Emperors Faithful wrote:A lower power lasbolt, or one on medium settings?
IIUP only mentions two settings, low and high.
Seaward wrote:Because modern weaponry works via kinetic force. Energy weapons do not have anywhere near enough mass to create that kind of trauma.
It wouldn't have to. If it's hot enough that it creates little blasts of plasma at the "impact" area (as it's been described as doing a few times, thus explaining why they "pop" or leave craters in armor), that little blast could very well do it, along with the damage the lasgun does itself.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
What are you two even arguing about. Do lasguns kill people? Yes. Bamn, argument over.
We all know that
I am asking the power output of Lasgun in Jules?
Proposition?
You are not meant to know. That way you can't pick it apart with your silly real-world "science". That's why they use made up words like megathules and megabrains.
There was that Guard regiment in First and Only that had the mirrored scale armor. Don't know if its reflective properties actually resisted lasgun fire, or if it was just ritual battle armor for them, though.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There was that Guard regiment in First and Only that had the mirrored scale armor. Don't know if its reflective properties actually resisted lasgun fire, or if it was just ritual battle armor for them, though.
The Vitrians. It was just a cultural thing. However, I think it was still blackish glass.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There was that Guard regiment in First and Only that had the mirrored scale armor. Don't know if its reflective properties actually resisted lasgun fire, or if it was just ritual battle armor for them, though.
The Vitrians. It was just a cultural thing. However, I think it was still blackish glass.
It was a unique silica-based armor, not truly glass. Only the reverse side was black in color.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There was that Guard regiment in First and Only that had the mirrored scale armor. Don't know if its reflective properties actually resisted lasgun fire, or if it was just ritual battle armor for them, though.
The Vitrians. It was just a cultural thing. However, I think it was still blackish glass.
It was a unique silica-based armor, not truly glass. Only the reverse side was black in color.
Was it mirrowed though? I seem to recall it just being described as glass like.
Emperors Faithful wrote:A lower power lasbolt, or one on medium settings?
IIUP only mentions two settings, low and high.
And does it mention the killing power of either settings? Bear in mind this is blatant Imperial Propoganda we're talking about, where praying is supposed to help save you when shot into the vaccum of space.
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Brother Coa wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Some people seem to think that Lasguns are super-laser Deathstars and that Flak Armour is near-invincible.
Because they buy into internet crap.
And some people are thinking that Guardsman die simply by spotting them.
Because of the internet crap.
And we've already established that no one discussing the topic here believes either of the two extremities. So cut the crap and follow the argument.
And why do you think that Lasgun shot can't tare limb or head? It's mini plasma explosion.
Emperors Faithful wrote:A lower power lasbolt, or one on medium settings?
IIUP only mentions two settings, low and high.
And does it mention the killing power of either settings? Bear in mind this is blatant Imperial Propoganda we're talking about, where praying is supposed to help save you when shot into the vaccum of space.
No, it's not. As for praying... frankly, if you're shot into the vacuum of space without a space suit, that's the best you can usually hope for.
It says nothing about the differences in killing power. Only that there's a high and low setting for the standard issue lasgun.
Emperors Faithful wrote:A lower power lasbolt, or one on medium settings?
IIUP only mentions two settings, low and high.
And does it mention the killing power of either settings? Bear in mind this is blatant Imperial Propoganda we're talking about, where praying is supposed to help save you when shot into the vaccum of space.
No, it's not. As for praying... frankly, if you're shot into the vacuum of space without a space suit, that's the best you can usually hope for.
True, but I don't know many people that seriously think it would work.
And there are plenty of other pieces of propoganda in the IIUP, such as the pieces on Orks and Tau foes. Only the Kroot account appeared even remotely accurate.
It says nothing about the differences in killing power. Only that there's a high and low setting for the standard issue lasgun.
And what does that tell us about th lasgun's ability to blow up arms and limbs?
Emperors Faithful wrote:And there are plenty of other pieces of propoganda in the IIUP, such as the pieces on Orks and Tau foes. Only the Kroot account appeared even remotely accurate.
It is improper for imperial citizens to know such things to begin with. Point the gun and shoot. But it is absolutely imperitive for Guardsmen to know how to work their weapons.
Besides, the Ork ones are correct for Gretchin.
And what does that tell us about th lasgun's ability to blow up arms and limbs?
I'm not gonna dignify that with a proper response.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Lasguns are plasma weaponry now?
This is how the shot works: " The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion".
Not like plasma, but somewhere near it. Ask Mellisia.
Emperors Faithful wrote:And there are plenty of other pieces of propoganda in the IIUP, such as the pieces on Orks and Tau foes. Only the Kroot account appeared even remotely accurate.
It is improper for imperial citizens to know such things to begin with. Point the gun and shoot. But it is absolutely imperitive for Guardsmen to know how to work their weapons.
Besides, the Ork ones are correct for Gretchin.
Let's say the Imperial author of the IIUP had a choice between "Lasguns are effective, robust and reliable weapons that can easily kill an unarmoured foe" and "Lasguns, divine weapons of the Imperium that they are, are capable of felling the mightiest of foes. Fear not the dreaded Carnifex, your Righteous Lasgun can blow off its limb with a few rounds! Lesser foes are blown apart from single shots of this holy weapon."
Which is he going to steer towards? And I'd imagine the Commissariat would have a lot of say about what went into this book.
And what does that tell us about th lasgun's ability to blow up arms and limbs?
I'm not gonna dignify that with a proper response.
You don't have an answer? Cool.
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Brother Coa wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Lasguns are plasma weaponry now?
This is how the shot works: " The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion".
Not like plasma, but somewhere near it. Ask Mellisia.
Imperial Munitorum Manual indicates that standard Lasgun magazines can get you around 150 shots, if used conservatively. I've also seen something somewhere that you can get up to 200 shots out of one. Taking the IIUP at face value that give a guardsman between about 700 and 1000 shots on basic loadout, which is pretty reasonable.
Its probably been said already, but lasguns are supposed to be euivalent to autoguns in effectiveness, hence the easiest answer to the OPs question is "about the same as a modern rifle round"
On second thought this is much better. One can't question alliteration, after all.
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Flinty wrote:Its probably been said already, but lasguns are supposed to be euivalent to autoguns in effectiveness, hence the easiest answer to the OPs question is "about the same as a modern rifle round"
Ex-fething-actly.
Enough of this "blow up limbs and decapitate people" nonsense.
Hellguns, although obviously stronger than a lasgun go through an Ork's head and just disintegrate it and keep going. If that puts a normal lasguns power into perspective.
No they're not. They are low-tech slug throwers supposedly manufactured on equivalent tech planets to our current age. They can be self-made in the Underhive for a start. I've never seen any references to them being made out of anything particularly special and therefore will be subject to similar limits on cartridge power as modern rifles.
Modern rifles are particularly effective bits of kit.
Come on guys and gals, being able to tear away a limb isn't only related to the kinetic energy the round posses, but in a fair part to the way the shot 'delivers' energy to the target. Meaning, non-full-jacketed, hollow point or explosive rounds should be more capable of shredding soft tissue (wich means potentially delivering a partial or total amputation if fired to a joint, not so much impacting on a bone...), squashing or fragmenting after impact, while AP (jacketed or even heavy-cored for higher calibers) rounds can easily punch straight through (if not impacting on a bone) an unarmored and unprotected target, delivering only a portion of their kinetic energy and creating a more circumscribed wound. In the same way, an energy weapon, even not possessing an exceptionally great energy, will probably deliver a decent part of its energy to the target area.
As for the lasgun, let's pretend, for simplicity's sake, that the air is perfectly clean (so, no diffraction. About that, I always wondered why nothing in the fluff, except for something about ASL using autoguns, took that into account...) and that the target behaves as a perfect black body (so, no reflection or refraction), so that 100% of the energy is transferred to the target, and that heat flows in an overly strange manner (being immediatly conducted to the surrounding area, but remaining confined to the limb or joint). Let's suppose we need to vaporise about 1 kilo of tissue, with a mean heat capacity of 3.5 J/g*K, to destroy a neck or an elbow. We would need AT LEAST 270,000 joule just to heat the area to the vaporization temperature of water, than much more (about 1,300,000) just to evaporate its water content, thus practically depriving the tissue of cohesion.
That obviously is an oversemplification, as it would probably be enough to melt part of the tissue (this is gruesome), while heat transfer, as the blood vessels are welded shut by the blast, would be reduced to simple conduction, which would impair it a lot, meaning a smaller area (sq millimetres at best) around the impact point would be subject to the immediate damage. Some fancy effect of laser (ionization to plasma, induction, penetration depth...) have been ignored as well.
Anyway, a las bolt capable of blowing away a limb with a pulse would need a lot of energy. Or it should be a focalized, continous ray, like industrial laser cutters, vaporizing a really tiny portion of tissue along a line, thus effectively cutting the part away. Or maybe a less focalized beam, to heat a larger area, melting an entire joint over time.
Obviously, a las weapon will easily be lethal without needing to vaporize ample areas, just punching through and damaging vital organs or killing you through hydraulic shock, as already said.
edit:
They can be self-made in the Underhive for a start.
so (almost) can an AK-47, which is everything but ineffective... Anyway, I'm quite sure they use caseless bullets, making them at least a lot lighter and less prone to jamming.
Kilkrazy wrote:
Caseless bullets are more prone to jamming because of the following reasons.
1. The lack of the metal casing requires the gun to resist much higher retained heat, which isn't carried away by the casing.
2. Uncased rounds are much more prone to wear, tear, and degradation in storage.
That's why they are only used by heavy artillery.
That's true. Anyway, that also means less moving parts, which is always a good thing, as well as no case expulsion mechanism, which means a lot less dirt, mud and dust in the firing chamber. The only thing you need for 1 is a refractary (ceramic or composite) firing chamber or a good heat exchanging system (well, I know the ADMech seems not to be so good at those (see: plasma weaponry), but, anyway...), while 2 is easily countered with sealed magazines (development of caseless firearms is one of the possible subjects for my Mechanical Engineering thesis, so I'm deeply sorry if I seemed a little carried away...).
chromedog wrote:Necromunda rulebook.
Previous to that, the RT rulebook and probably 2nd ed wargear book (since much of the weaponry for Necro was cribbed from it).
And this source also states that autoguns are of a greater calibre and power than your average modern assualt rifle?
I'm not meaning to attack you here, chromedog, I just find these attempts to prove that autoguns (and therefore a lasguns) are capable of blowing off limbs to be a bit ridiculous.
In Gaunts Ghosts, the Las-guns have the power to blast open enemies on fullpower. They fire fully automatic, heavy beams that slice through opponents but drain ammo and can ruin the gun and magazine. On medium, normal setting, it causes severe burns, but not puncture wounds. Low is essentially just a flash-light.
And its unknown whether it has a recoil or not. Some say yes, others say no.
Emperors Faithful wrote: not meaning to attack you here, chromedog, I just find these attempts to prove that autoguns (and therefore a lasguns) are capable of blowing off limbs to be a bit ridiculous.
Are you saying that solid slug and energy based weapons are the same things?
And this is from Lexicanum: "It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine".
Probably can't blow them up in the meaning of word. But it can clearly detach them from the body if shot in the right place. But Lasshot is making mini explosions when it hit's the flesh, add normal or high setting and it can tear off limbs without a problem.
Kilkrazy wrote:
Caseless bullets are more prone to jamming because of the following reasons.
1. The lack of the metal casing requires the gun to resist much higher retained heat, which isn't carried away by the casing.
2. Uncased rounds are much more prone to wear, tear, and degradation in storage.
That's why they are only used by heavy artillery.
That's true. Anyway, that also means less moving parts, which is always a good thing, as well as no case expulsion mechanism, which means a lot less dirt, mud and dust in the firing chamber. The only thing you need for 1 is a refractary (ceramic or composite) firing chamber or a good heat exchanging system (well, I know the ADMech seems not to be so good at those (see: plasma weaponry), but, anyway...), while 2 is easily countered with sealed magazines (development of caseless firearms is one of the possible subjects for my Mechanical Engineering thesis, so I'm deeply sorry if I seemed a little carried away...).
Guns firing caseless ammo need an extraction mechanism for when a round fails to fire.
Adding a heat exchange mechanism onto the gun means more parts and more things to go wrong. It makes the gun heavier, removing one of the advantages of caseless ammo.
Encapsulating the cartridges in sealed magazines means ammo is heavier and bulkier to carry, removing much of the advantage of it being caseless. It requires the gun or the soldier to carry an extra piece of equipment which he could lose or go wrong.
Emperors Faithful wrote: not meaning to attack you here, chromedog, I just find these attempts to prove that autoguns (and therefore a lasguns) are capable of blowing off limbs to be a bit ridiculous.
Are you saying that solid slug and energy based weapons are the same things?
I've said no such thing, but what is obvious is that they're similar weapons in terms of effectiveness.
And this is from Lexicanum: "It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine".
Probably can't blow them up in the meaning of word. But it can clearly detach them from the body if shot in the right place. But Lasshot is making mini explosions when it hit's the flesh, add normal or high setting and it can tear off limbs without a problem.
Lexcanum hs demonstrated it has the relibility of hamster on crack.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
I've said no such thing, but what is obvious is that they're similar weapons in terms of effectiveness.
No they are nor, Lasgun pack more punch than Autogun.
It is also stated on Lexicanum that Autoguns are slowly being replaced by Lasguns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
You can check that in the Asartes Codex.
Index Astartes III, page 56. "Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, leads his bodyguard against a deadly Tyranid attack."
So Lexicanum is reliable after all.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
I've said no such thing, but what is obvious is that they're similar weapons in terms of effectiveness.
No they are nor, Lasgun pack more punch than Autogun.
Bull. Sources indicate that solid shot weapons to more physical damage than lasguns. The lethality of lasgun is that, when the flesh is cauterised, the victim often goes straight into very serious shock, the pain threshold of living beings can't handle it.
EDIT: Enforcer, by Matthew Farrer is one example. The lasguns don't do as much physical damage to a deamonhost as the crewmember's solid-shot weapons.
It is also stated on Lexicanum that Autoguns are slowly being replaced by Lasguns.
Because they're easier to mass-manufacuter. That much is evident from the IG codex alone.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
You can check that in the Asartes Codex.
Index Astartes III, page 56. "Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, leads his bodyguard against a deadly Tyranid attack."
So Lexicanum is reliable after all.
Yeah, it's reliable enough (like how Wiki is reliable) when it's taking things straight from other, official, sources.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Yeah, it's reliable enough (like how Wiki is reliable) when it's taking things straight from other, official, sources.
Not when it's making gak up.
EDIT 2: The "a" button on my laptop is buggered.
True enough, but Wiki have a team of people who read articles daily and correcting various fan fiction. For example, I once wrote something on Wikipeda purely imagined. After 15 minutes I checked the text and it was corrected.
Same must be for Lexicanum, they must have these teams or everyone would start to question the reliability of it.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Yeah, it's reliable enough (like how Wiki is reliable) when it's taking things straight from other, official, sources.
Not when it's making gak up.
EDIT 2: The "a" button on my laptop is buggered.
True enough, but Wiki have a team of people who read articles daily and correcting various fan fiction. For example, I once wrote something on Wikipeda purely imagined. After 15 minutes I checked the text and it was corrected. Same must be for Lexicanum, they must have these teams or everyone would start to question the reliability of it.
It can only be considered reliable when it references a reliable source. It, in itself, is not reliable source. Which is why you can't use Wiki in an assignment. Just because a team doesn't correct something on Lexicanum immediately doesn't mean we should take that piece of information as gospel. It might be the opinion of the team itself, but utterly unsupported by any official cannon.
Guns firing caseless ammo need an extraction mechanism for when a round fails to fire.
Adding a heat exchange mechanism onto the gun means more parts and more things to go wrong. It makes the gun heavier, removing one of the advantages of caseless ammo.
Encapsulating the cartridges in sealed magazines means ammo is heavier and bulkier to carry, removing much of the advantage of it being caseless. It requires the gun or the soldier to carry an extra piece of equipment which he could lose or go wrong.
As for requiring an extraction mechanism for unfired rounds, that is true. However, a hand or even electrically activated expulsion system has nothing to do, in terms of weight, number and complexity of mechanical parts, to a gas or mechanically operated extraction mechanism (heavier and bulkier, at least as it must survive action various times per second, as well as reutilizing recoil or combustion gas to be operated).
A heat exchanger isn't a 'mechanism', nor does it absolutely need a flux of fluid (even if that would undeniably make it more efficient); it could just be a plate or fin system (which, using magnesium or other similarly highly heat-conductive light materials, doesn't need to be exceptionally bulky or heavy) or even a simple electrically operated radiator, using Peltier effect.
As for sealed magazines, are you telling me any soldier would mainly bring non-magazined (low-caliber) bullets in a fight, thus having to put them one by one in the magazine while under fire? Sure, logistics branches will usually transport munitions to the theatre of operations outside of magazines, and soldiers will have some loose ammo in their packs (mainly for long-range recon or infiltration troopers, who, for long periods of time, will have limited access to supply lines), but a resin or hard foam magazine (you can generally use light, unexpensive materials to make them, but not, for obvious reasons, to make bullet cases) will hardly weigh down a soldier. You could even use form-fitting magazines, using softer, but equally resilient, resins or alloys (think something like AA battery packages) to reduce magazine volume, if needed, and remember that a far higher percentage of ammo's weight comes from casing, not from magazines.
Anyway,
Several models of caseless ammunition magazines are cheap, somewhat brittle, lightweight plastic and are entirely disposable once their ammunition payload is expended.
The self-loading mechanism on a modern gun does not clear jammed rounds. It is the firing of the round that supplies the mechanical work needed to eject the casing and load the next round. By definition a jammed round must be cleared by hand. (Except in externally powered revolving breech guns.)
A caseless gun must have a self-loading mechanism and some way to clear jammed rounds.
I don't think it is a good idea to stick cooling fins or a radiator on a rifle. It will endanger the firer, and it's more weight and bulk.
The self-loading mechanism on a modern gun does not clear jammed rounds. It is the firing of the round that supplies the mechanical work needed to eject the casing and load the next round. By definition a jammed round must be cleared by hand.
That's what I said:
As for requiring an extraction mechanism for unfired rounds, that is true. However, a hand or even electrically activated expulsion system has nothing to do, in terms of weight, number and complexity of mechanical parts, to a gas or mechanically operated extraction mechanism (heavier and bulkier, at least as it must survive action various times per second, as well as reutilizing recoil or combustion gas to be operated).
(here I'm comparing casing ejection mechanism to a hand-operated mechanism whose only goal is that to permit jammed rounds extraction and therefore works only in that case).
As for cooling the firing chamber, the only problem a caseless weapon has is that of venting the excessive heat in the firing chamber, i.e. the heat generated by combustion is not so high the gun will burn your hands. So, once you have diverted the excessive heat to a very simple cooling sistem (let's say a row of 3 mm high fins along the barrel or the stock), that won't cause any potential danger, rising in temperature only by a few degrees each time you fire a long burst. If that doesn't convince you, you could assure the heat is spread to the whole weapon through an even simpler, piezoelectrically powered (using recoil or trigger pressure as a power source, so no additional batteries or mechanical parts), sistem using Peltier effect. If even that is not enough, I'll post the calculation required to show you the weight and bulk of the cooling system (assuming magnesium or aluminium-magnesium alloy are used) (no, I'm not trying to convince anyone to buy the NEW SUPER GUN OF DEATH, DESTRUCTION (death and destruction included only in the ProPackage) AND DOOM FULL OF SHINY BITZ AND DAKKA(tm) (for today only, with MOAR DAKKA )).
Spoiler:
On second thought, I believe
[spoiler]this is a stupid arguement that has gone on too long.[spoiler]
may be referring to our argument, as, I'm afraid, I may have been derailing the thread a little bit... should I concede, before the MODS impale me and use my head as a new decoration for the forum?
edit:
Spoiler:
Oh, shi... I didn't realize who I was talking to... Please don't kill me! I didn't mean enything by that! Please? Pretty please? Shall I start to run? No, please! Not that! Eaargh!
Sorry, I seem to have offeded some people when I did not meen to.
I apologise for affending you that was not my intent. I mearly ment to point out the fact that the Autogun is the equivilent of a modern firearm as well as a lasgun. Sorry.
A 30mm grenade launcher is about the same as a boltgun. The reason why they aren't standard to all infantry instead of a rifle is that once your basic weapon is adequate to the task, it is pointless to make it larger.
@Emperors Faithful - in that case I will use this as a club:
@Vice_Grip - it's ok, they are about equal. Lasgun only afvantage is for being the energy weapon. Have almost unlimited ammo and ability to blow up a tank.
purplefood wrote:Lasguns blowing up a tank?
The larger las-based weapons maybe...
It can do that, here from Lexicanum: "The pack can be recharged in many ways, including sunlight. It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade. This tactic is only used in last ditch situations as it results in the destruction of the weapon. The resultant explosion, however, is powerful enough to crack open the frontal armor of a Chaos Dreadnought."
And we all know that Dreds have Adamantium on front armor. Witch is impenetrable to most commonplace weapons. What can our puny tanks with their ceramic plates do against this?
purplefood wrote:Lasguns blowing up a tank?
The larger las-based weapons maybe...
It can do that, here from Lexicanum: "The pack can be recharged in many ways, including sunlight. It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade. This tactic is only used in last ditch situations as it results in the destruction of the weapon. The resultant explosion, however, is powerful enough to crack open the frontal armor of a Chaos Dreadnought."
And we all know that Dreds have Adamantium on front armor. Witch is impenetrable to most commonplace weapons. What can our puny tanks with their ceramic plates do against this?
That's not the lasgun blowing up a tank...
That's the power pack being overcharged and used as a completely different weapon...
purplefood wrote:Lasguns blowing up a tank?
The larger las-based weapons maybe...
It can do that, here from Lexicanum: "The pack can be recharged in many ways, including sunlight. It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade. This tactic is only used in last ditch situations as it results in the destruction of the weapon. The resultant explosion, however, is powerful enough to crack open the frontal armor of a Chaos Dreadnought."
And we all know that Dreds have Adamantium on front armor. Witch is impenetrable to most commonplace weapons. What can our puny tanks with their ceramic plates do against this?
That's not the lasgun blowing up a tank...
That's the power pack being overcharged and used as a completely different weapon...
That's the case of power charged being used as Melta Bomb.
That can blow tanks to.
purplefood wrote:Lasguns blowing up a tank?
The larger las-based weapons maybe...
It can do that, here from Lexicanum: "The pack can be recharged in many ways, including sunlight. It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade. This tactic is only used in last ditch situations as it results in the destruction of the weapon. The resultant explosion, however, is powerful enough to crack open the frontal armor of a Chaos Dreadnought."
And we all know that Dreds have Adamantium on front armor. Witch is impenetrable to most commonplace weapons. What can our puny tanks with their ceramic plates do against this?
That's not the lasgun blowing up a tank...
That's the power pack being overcharged and used as a completely different weapon...
That's the case of power charged being used as Melta Bomb.
That can blow tanks to.
Yeah... like i said. A completely different weapon. They don't use a lasgun, they use the power pack.
purplefood wrote:Lasguns blowing up a tank?
The larger las-based weapons maybe...
It can do that, here from Lexicanum: "The pack can be recharged in many ways, including sunlight. It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade. This tactic is only used in last ditch situations as it results in the destruction of the weapon. The resultant explosion, however, is powerful enough to crack open the frontal armor of a Chaos Dreadnought."
And we all know that Dreds have Adamantium on front armor. Witch is impenetrable to most commonplace weapons. What can our puny tanks with their ceramic plates do against this?
That's not the lasgun blowing up a tank...
That's the power pack being overcharged and used as a completely different weapon...
That's the case of power charged being used as Melta Bomb.
That can blow tanks to.
Yeah... like i said. A completely different weapon. They don't use a lasgun, they use the power pack.
Also, and this is a bad job by Lexicanum, that dread had been cracked open already - probably by a frikkin' tank.
I have heard this as well, the Dread's shell was cracked. The battery must have fair amount of energy in it if when over-charged it has the destructive ability comparable to a Melta-bomb. If a math head wants to draw a comparison in power between a modern grenade and a melta bomb, take a number, reduce it slightly and then divide it by the number of shots in a standard combat setting lasgun pack it might give as a suitable result.
Brother Coa wrote:Can you provide source for this? That the Dred was already opened?
If we are talking about the same book, Gaunt's Ghosts where the scout kills the Dread, then yes. It is mentioned that the Dread was blinded and the casing was cracked.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I believe that is the incident they are referring too. Normally I like Lexicanum but that entire page is bad and should be disregarded.
Like the page saying that Imperium have several million inhabited worlds?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I believe that is the incident they are referring too. Normally I like Lexicanum but that entire page is bad and should be disregarded.
Like the page saying that Imperium have several million inhabited worlds?
Well yeah, that's blatantly incorrect. The Imperium only holds one million worlds. Not several.
Kilkrazy wrote:A 30mm grenade launcher is about the same as a boltgun.
Nnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooo....
For one, 30mm grenade launchers don't penetrate armor and THEN explode.
Bolter use .75 caliber ( 20mm ), but there are sources to suggest that bolter can also use .999 or 1.0 ( 25mm ).
And, as Melissia said, our granades just explode on impact. Bolter first penetrate than explode.
Kilkrazy wrote:A 30mm grenade launcher is about the same as a boltgun.
Nnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooo....
For one, 30mm grenade launchers don't penetrate armor and THEN explode.
Bolter use .75 caliber ( 20mm ), but there are sources to suggest that bolter can also use .999 or 1.0 ( 25mm ).
And, as Melissia said, our granades just explode on impact. Bolter first penetrate than explode.
I'm guessing that if it doesn't penetrte it still explodes?
Kilkrazy wrote:A 30mm grenade launcher is about the same as a boltgun.
Nnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooo....
For one, 30mm grenade launchers don't penetrate armor and THEN explode.
Bolter use .75 caliber ( 20mm ), but there are sources to suggest that bolter can also use .999 or 1.0 ( 25mm ).
And, as Melissia said, our granades just explode on impact. Bolter first penetrate than explode.
I'm guessing that if it doesn't penetrte it still explodes?
Yeah unless your shooting something fleshy, it would explode on impact.....I guess
I thought Lasguns caused a lot of damage if you hit someone even close to something vital as it has a large radius of damage but if it hit almost any kind of armour it would make a crater but stop anyway (probably still make you bleed) because it lacked penatrative power, I.E. that's what the Hellguns and Hot-Shot Rifles were made for.
I assume that a concrete and iron wall would get a hole but what's on the other side won't take any damage. but what would I know?
I always assumed they were the equivalent of modern day rifles, in relation too effectiveness. But they use lasguns because theoretically you could have infinite ammo as long as you have a heat source
You just threw your own argument out the window. Murderer.
Why?
In DoW II when you collect equipment you can read about ammunition types for several war-gear items, types of weapon and their attributes.
For bolter it was stated .75, for heavy 1.0.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I believe that is the incident they are referring too. Normally I like Lexicanum but that entire page is bad and should be disregarded.
Like the page saying that Imperium have several million inhabited worlds?
Well yeah, that's blatantly incorrect. The Imperium only holds one million worlds. Not several.
Didn't know that but yeah, obviously that's quite wrong.
You just threw your own argument out the window. Murderer.
Why?
In DoW II when you collect equipment you can read about ammunition types for several war-gear items, types of weapon and their attributes.
For bolter it was stated .75, for heavy 1.0.
That was just a crack at the reliability of DOW fluff, or the books based on it.
You can say that again....
