The title says it all. In another thread we discussed about these weapons and the subject came up. As I promised, here we can discuss about it. Some, like me, feel it is an exelent firearm,while others thing it's rubibsh. Those others are wrong. I won't just go on about my evidence all at once, though. Let's have some nice clean discussion first, okay?

Oh, another thing. Please, no speculation. The only evidence that will be taken in account is the official material (rulebooks, art, novels and such).

Any gun that can blast a hole the size of a fist into a torso is ok by me

Toastedandy wrote:Any gun that can blast a hole the size of a fist into a torso is ok by me

+1 Anything that can blow chunks out of people that big seems to be a fairly effective gun...

It's good in it's role. High rate of fire, power, negligible recoil, short range, durable, with a large amount of alternative ammunition types, perfect for the Space Marine. Any other role and it's definitely not the best weapon to use.

Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I think it's great, but only for space marines. Regular humans can barely use them, being at least 50 pounds. Mounted on a tank in the form of a storm bolter is fine, but not as an infantry gun.

In other words, not practical, but great.

Well rule book bolters and fluff bolters are 2 completely different things, realistically you need to look at the codex movie marines from a few years ago. Tabletop bolters and the space marines who bear them are seriously underpowered v fluff in the name of game balance. Bolters in the fluff can smash through power armour pretty easily blow huge chunks out of stuff etc etc. I dont think anyone could realisticallly argue that the bolter is a weak weapon (yes i do realise I just used the word realistic in a debate about a fictional weapon in a sci fi universe)

Boldters can't 'smash through power armour pretty easily', in all the books it takes a lot of bolts to slow down Astartes in armour and even then they need to hit the weak points.

They're made for dealing with most types of infantry, excepting haevy armored infantry. Nothing better against those than a heavy boltgun

Read the Salamander short story in Heroes of the Space Marines (or something along those lines) it says that they find people who have had their torsoes basically liquidised and the Marines explain that that was a Bolter round, so they are pretty powerful

Miraclefish wrote:Boldters can't 'smash through power armour pretty easily', in all the books it takes a lot of bolts to slow down Astartes in armour and even then they need to hit the weak points.

In the Horus Heresy series, Marines one shot each other with bolters much more often than it taking more than one round.

DarknessEternal wrote:In the Horus Heresy series, Marines one shot each other with bolters much more often than it taking more than one round.

Weren't those Power Armour Marks inferior though?

a Bolt shell can penetrate power armor if the armor is hit at an angle of somewhere between 80 and 100 degrees.


Power Armor(mostly the newer marks) is sculpted to deflect shots rather then absorb them. hence why earlier marks of power armor might seem to be inferior in some regards.

at medium to short range, bolt shells can simply flatten themselves against the ceramite.

at long range, bolt shells are actually more dangerous because they gain force due to the rocket propulsion.



Bolt shells are fired in a 2 stage system.

1st is an initial explosive stage contained in a jacket, identical to modern firearms. contrary to many peoples opinion, and all sculpts, artwork, and current fluff, bolt rounds are not caseless. this stage propels the shell to lethal velocity.

then the 2nd stage ignites. a miniature rocket increases the bolts velocity and killing power.


upon impact, the warhead inside the bolt round detonates. this is Deutrium, a hydrogen isotope used in Nuclear Fusion. No, its not an actual nuclear bomb. Hydrogen burns and, like most flamable materials, can explode violently if compressed. assumedly, the Deutrium is in a solid or liquid state. this isn't explained.

the actual round itself is made of steel with a Diamantine tip for piercing through armor.


this is for standard bolter rounds. other types replace the Deutrium core with another type of warhead.

Toastedandy wrote:Any gun that can blast a hole the size of a fist into a torso is ok by me

WIN


And my answer is: Those guys who said that bolter suck need to go to school and learn about firearms and ballistics and how bolter is making a short work of everything that goes toward Space Marine.

It seems they got the look pretty right in the Space Marine videos I've watched so far, better than DoW2 at any rate (although I think those are pretty accurate, just no explosion pulping torsos, etc).

daedalus-templarius wrote:It seems they got the look pretty right in the Space Marine videos I've watched so far, better than DoW2 at any rate (although I think those are pretty accurate, just no explosion pulping torsos, etc).

People will now say: "This is not true because video games aren't fluff..."

Brother Coa wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:It seems they got the look pretty right in the Space Marine videos I've watched so far, better than DoW2 at any rate (although I think those are pretty accurate, just no explosion pulping torsos, etc).

People will now say: "This is not true because video games aren't fluff..."

You've got a point as the Bolter will appear as the designers of the game imagine it to be, possibly not how it actually is

In DH, boltweapons of any kind (pistol, gun, heavy, whatever) all are given Penetration 4 (standard ammunition payload). This means it ignores the first 4 points of the target's armor rating (not its Toughness rating that further reduces damage).

This allows the bolt-weapon to instantly bypass all forms of flak armor and anything less-protective, including armored bodygloves, most forms of improvised, light cover, most cybernetic/augmetic body-plating, and reduces the effectiveness of Power Armor by roughly half (PA has variable armor ratings, depending on the pattern of the armor and the specific location hit, again depending on pattern of PA).

The round then enters the target's body and explodes, allowing the target to "soak" up to their Toughness bonus in damage, suffering the rest as Wounds. Against *most* standard infantry forces (basic, grunt Guardsmen, Hive gangers, criminal thugs, and so forth) this equates to a one shot, one kill scenario. Tougher troops obviously, in the mechanics of Dark Heresy, have higher Toughness and more Wounds, and may take more shots to kill.

When a target reaches -1 or worse Wounds, they suffer a Critical Hit. The farther below 0 Wounds they are, the worse the Critical Hit is... with Explosive damage type (standard bolter damage class), critical hits become either horribly mutilating/outright lethal somewhere around -5/-6 wounds.

So... as a general-purpose assault weapon against a wide variety of targets (human, xeno and Other), the boltgun is a pretty dependable, efficient weapon system.

Belexar wrote:Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I said they're ridiculously complicated and inefficient, as well as a logistical nightmare. I never said anything about their effectiveness.

Most Imperial tech is technologically inefficient, and that goes even more so for anything Marines use; you can see cases of the far lower-tech Tau coming up with more straightforward solutions: they may require something the size of a dreadnought to get armor equal to power armor, and they can't jam on as much firepower as a dread can carry without rendering it practically immobile, but they do have the presence of mind to duck tape a large jet engine onto the ones that are meant to be able to move around, letting them rapidly redeploy over a warzone, even if it's too clumsy to maneuver well close in. Imperial tech is sort of like a tiny Rube Goldberg device that launches a whirling ball of chainsaws at something, as compared to a large gun. There's no question that the Imperial tech is more advanced just to work as it's supposed to, but the gun is a more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Belexar wrote:Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I said they're ridiculously complicated and inefficient, as well as a logistical nightmare. I never said anything about their effectiveness.

Most Imperial tech is technologically inefficient, and that goes even more so for anything Marines use; you can see cases of the far lower-tech Tau coming up with more straightforward solutions: they may require something the size of a dreadnought to get armor equal to power armor, and they can't jam on as much firepower as a dread can carry without rendering it practically immobile, but they do have the presence of mind to duck tape a large jet engine onto the ones that are meant to be able to move around, letting them rapidly redeploy over a warzone, even if it's too clumsy to maneuver well close in. Imperial tech is sort of like a tiny Rube Goldberg device that launches a whirling ball of chainsaws at something, as compared to a large gun. There's no question that the Imperial tech is more advanced just to work as it's supposed to, but the gun is a more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing.

This guy is right. The whole point of Imperial tech is that it's amazingly powerful, but also stupidly complex and inefficient, and it's slowly becoming even more so because even techpriests are only vaguely aware of how they work. No one can build a bolter, they just put the designated materials into a bolter making STC machine, say some prayers, and push a button. When the bolter-making machine breaks down, they say some prayers and head over to the bolter-maker maker. Emperor help you when that one goes.

Two previous posts = WIN

Okay, I see your point. The bolters may be a little overcomplicated, though nobody can argue it's not a good weapon. Even so, you can ger the same results with a Bolter pistol than with a Slugga, which is basically a big gun made from scrap metal. Orks are beautiful in their simplicity.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Belexar wrote:Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I said they're ridiculously complicated and inefficient, as well as a logistical nightmare. I never said anything about their effectiveness.

Most Imperial tech is technologically inefficient, and that goes even more so for anything Marines use; you can see cases of the far lower-tech Tau coming up with more straightforward solutions: they may require something the size of a dreadnought to get armor equal to power armor, and they can't jam on as much firepower as a dread can carry without rendering it practically immobile, but they do have the presence of mind to duck tape a large jet engine onto the ones that are meant to be able to move around, letting them rapidly redeploy over a warzone, even if it's too clumsy to maneuver well close in. Imperial tech is sort of like a tiny Rube Goldberg device that launches a whirling ball of chainsaws at something, as compared to a large gun. There's no question that the Imperial tech is more advanced just to work as it's supposed to, but the gun is a more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing.

a Bolter is no more complicated then any of our modern firearms.


it does require a supply line of ammo, but Space Marines never persue the kind of war where they will need to maintain supply lines.

they drop in, get the job done, and leave. they don't need to resupply.


the ammo is fairly complex, but once you are able to mass produce the ammo everything becomes alot easier. and yes, Bolt rounds are mass produced, along with most of the imperiums equipment.


the Imperial Guard does fight long protracted wars, but thats why they have Lasguns. no ammo to truck in, its just recharged with mobile generators or even light and heat.



and the Imperium is actually advancing its technology. just extremely slowely. they make sure something works before they use it.



and not all Imperial tech is made with STCs. Power Armor and Bolters are actually NOT STC built. Power Armor is constantly improving. Bolters are often hand built by the marine that will wield them.

the Ad Mech understands their technology, the higher up you are, the more you know. its the unwashed masses who don't know how things work.

Now THAT'S a good reply.

Grey Templar wrote:a Bolter is no more complicated then any of our modern firearms.

Actually... it kinda is. At least, it's far, far more maintenance heavy than our modern weapons (requiring far more constant maintenance than most modern weapons to avoid jamming and etc), and its ammunition is far more complex than modern ammunition.

I'm sure it's much simpler then we imagine. It's just a mag full of rickets and a firing mechanish. Marines themselves can make them. Also, I don't know if SM do the same thng, but all current soldiers are thought to assemble and dissasemble their weapons completely in the first stages of their training. I?m sure they all inderstand it very well.

Lol, the magazine has rickets

If it's firing Kraken rounds, does it then also have scurvy?

Possibly

Grey Templar wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Belexar wrote:Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I said they're ridiculously complicated and inefficient, as well as a logistical nightmare. I never said anything about their effectiveness.

Most Imperial tech is technologically inefficient, and that goes even more so for anything Marines use; you can see cases of the far lower-tech Tau coming up with more straightforward solutions: they may require something the size of a dreadnought to get armor equal to power armor, and they can't jam on as much firepower as a dread can carry without rendering it practically immobile, but they do have the presence of mind to duck tape a large jet engine onto the ones that are meant to be able to move around, letting them rapidly redeploy over a warzone, even if it's too clumsy to maneuver well close in. Imperial tech is sort of like a tiny Rube Goldberg device that launches a whirling ball of chainsaws at something, as compared to a large gun. There's no question that the Imperial tech is more advanced just to work as it's supposed to, but the gun is a more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing.

a Bolter is no more complicated then any of our modern firearms.

Oh it really is. If it weren't, the Imperium would likely mass produce it on an even bigger scale. Everything about it is more complicated.

it does require a supply line of ammo, but Space Marines never persue the kind of war where they will need to maintain supply lines.
they drop in, get the job done, and leave. they don't need to resupply.

They can't rapidly re-deploy to other situations without a constant supply. Contrary to popular belief, Space Marines aren't only ever involved in rapid strikes. The battle for Macragge leaps to mind, as do other pitched battles.

the Imperial Guard does fight long protracted wars, but thats why they have Lasguns. no ammo to truck in, its just recharged with mobile generators or even light and heat.

What's your point? Space Marines don't use Lasguns.

and the Imperium is actually advancing its technology. just extremely slowely. they make sure something works before they use it.

It improves its tech, and it rediscovers certain things, but rarely if ever invents new concepts.

and not all Imperial tech is made with STCs. Power Armor and Bolters are actually NOT STC built. Power Armor is constantly improving. Bolters are often hand built by the marine that will wield them.

No they aren't, but they are not "constantly improving" it. Bolters are also not often built by the marines who weild them. As far as I'm aware, they are built on Forge Worlds or the Chapters own Forge. Have a source for this to prove otherwise?

the Ad Mech understands their technology, the higher up you are, the more you know. its the unwashed masses who don't know how things work.

Wrong. They understand how to replicate, they have little understanding for how things actually work, considering the knowledge for half The Imperiums tech has been lost never again to be re-covered, hence why STCs are so massively important.

No denying the bolter is a good weapon. But eventually the Imperium will simply lose its ability to make bolters, and then suddenly they might wish they had payed more attention to the inner workings of the pulse rifle. An even better example of the Imperium's failings is the Leman Russ. A great gun, and great armor, make it one of the best mass production tanks in the 40k universe. But those amazing pieces are mounted on a lopsided tank chassis appear woefully out of date in 1930. The LR can blow any modern tank out of the water, but it can't drive across a trench.

The bolter is not real, everything we have been told about it, is what the bolter is. If it's described as complicated and requiring heavy maintenance, that's just how it is.

Belexar wrote:Even so, you can ger the same results with a Bolter pistol than with a Slugga, which is basically a big gun made from scrap metal.

Actually, it's only the same result an ORK can get with a slugga. Sluggas may not actually work when wielded by a non-ork.

You really know 40k, even I knew the fact about the fact that Marines don't build their bolters, but chapters like the Salamanders like to make custom modifications, so that is probably where that comes from

Grey Templar wrote:a Bolter is no more complicated then any of our modern firearms.

This is a ridiculous assertion. Bolters are delicate, overcomplicated messes, and their ammo even more so.

it does require a supply line of ammo, but Space Marines never persue the kind of war where they will need to maintain supply lines.

they drop in, get the job done, and leave. they don't need to resupply.

Right. None of that contradicts anything I said. Space Marines are shock troops to be used in brief engagements to soften hard targets. Naturally, tanks are a better solution to the problem, and this is reflected in tanks of all sorts outnumbering Space Marines, including the tanks that are worth several squads of them, like baneblades.

the ammo is fairly complex, but once you are able to mass produce the ammo everything becomes alot easier. and yes, Bolt rounds are mass produced, along with most of the imperiums equipment.

Bolts aren't mass-produced, at least not in the sense you're meaning it. They're handcrafted with a great deal of pointless ritual, since they're meant to be sacred objects after all.

the Imperial Guard does fight long protracted wars, but thats why they have Lasguns. no ammo to truck in, its just recharged with mobile generators or even light and heat.

Right, the lasgun is perfect from a logistical standpoint. It's also ridiculously advanced, as evidenced by the fact that it works the way it does at all. Non-Marine tech is notably a great deal more efficient in terms of labor and resources, though. Compare Guard tanks to Marine ones, for instance. Or even the basic infantry equipment: for the resources (considering both labor and parts) to make a single suit of power armor, you could probably outfit several regiments in flak; a single round for a bolter would take more than a entire lasgun, complete with its hundreds of rounds of ammo worth of chargepacks.

and the Imperium is actually advancing its technology. just extremely slowely. they make sure something works before they use it.



and not all Imperial tech is made with STCs. Power Armor and Bolters are actually NOT STC built. Power Armor is constantly improving. Bolters are often hand built by the marine that will wield them.

the Ad Mech understands their technology, the higher up you are, the more you know. its the unwashed masses who don't know how things work.

I never said anything to the contrary, only that it is technologically inefficient and often ridiculously complicated. Take Titans, for example: the design poses numerous technological hurdles and difficulties to function at all, let alone be able to match something like a baneblade, yet a titan is demonstrably worth a great deal more than a baneblade in terms of firepower and resilience, and so a great deal of extra technology would have had to go into making it work, enough to make a tank worth many times a titan had it been spent there instead. There's some reason to believe that a Titan requires more investment of labor than one of the smaller naval vessels (which would be kind of like a bicycle taking more labor to build than an eighteen-wheeler); or it could just be that the naval vessel is more useful, and that's why it's produced on a much greater scale, sort of like how for every suit of power armor more than ten million suits of flak are produced.

Or compare power armor to a crisis suit, for an Imperial versus Non-Imperial comparison: they both provide roughly the same level of protection, but the crisis suit is the size of a dreadnought and clumsy in close, though it has a jet engine duck taped to it so it can move around the battlefield at a better clip than a Marine, and although it packs more firepower than a suit of power armor can carry with it it's still significantly less than what a dreadnought could carry. The power armor is objectively the more advanced piece of technology there, cramming significantly better protection into a smaller package, while maintaining a degree of dexterity; it's less efficient, however, because the Crisis Suit is comparatively mass produced, instead of being a delicately crafted relic, and the crisis suit is more strategically useful due to its greater macro-scale maneuverability.

the color purple wrote:No denying the bolter is a good weapon. But eventually the Imperium will simply lose its ability to make bolters

Considering that new patterns of Boltguns have been developed over the millenniums, this is false.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Belexar wrote:Even so, you can ger the same results with a Bolter pistol than with a Slugga, which is basically a big gun made from scrap metal.

Actually, it's only the same result an ORK can get with a slugga. Sluggas may not actually work when wielded by a non-ork.

Yes it does work in the hands of a non-Ork.

But a slugga is definitely inferior to a boltgun.

iproxtaco wrote:The bolter is not real, everything we have been told about it, is what the bolter is. If it's described as complicated and requiring heavy maintenance, that's just how it is.

actually, the basic mechanics which a bolter uses are quite real.


the Gyrojet was a weapon class that was developed to fire caseless rocket propelled solid rounds.

it had problems with accuracy beyond a certain distance, it wasn't lethal within 30 feet, and the rockets often misfired(sometimes igniting a minute after you fired it). you could literally do the Loony Toons thing and stop it with a finger down the barrel.


the Bolter solves the lethality problem by adding an explosive stage when fired. accuracy we can assume is solved with advanced stabilization systems built into the bolt round(the Gyrojet was invented during the 60s so the technology wasn't advanced nearly to the capacity of the idea)



as far as the complexity,

the bolter can't be any more complex then a Lasgun. a Lasgun has all sorts of wierd things to fire its lasbolts(which is actually a plasma pulse fired down a laser. basically, its a low grade pulse rifle)

the bolter simply has the componants we have in modern firearms. mag feed, breech, barrel...

it will have additional equipment in the form of targeting relays which interface with the Power Armor's HUD, but these are extras and have nothing to do with the actual weapons technology.


I would venture to say that it would be entirely possable to make a working bolter right now.

Oh Grey Templar, so very wrong, but I'm tired, so utter obliteration will have to wait unitl morning or someone else will have to step up.

Melissia wrote:Yes it does work in the hands of a non-Ork.

But a slugga is definitely inferior to a boltgun.

You mean Bolter? or Bolter Pistol? The slugga is the Ork Pistol. Their regular rifle would be the Shoota.

sure they require maintanence, but its no more then our modern firearms. possably less, but 40k fluff tends to dramatise things.

Space marines do occasionally get forced to fight a straight up battle, but that is very rare.


the Battle for Maccragge is also a bad example. they Ultramarines were fighting on their own turf. they would definitly have had massive stockpiles of ammo.

As I said before, Marines know their weapons very well. I think they have a bond with it much like a samurai had with his katana. They're perfectly capable of giving it maintenance themselves.

Grey Templar wrote:sure they require maintanence, but its no more then our modern firearms. possably less, but 40k fluff tends to dramatise things.

Definitely more. They're temperamental weapons in every single fluff source that mentions it, but then again, it was comparing them to the lasgun, which is as reliable as a weapon gets without being a rock.

The boltgun might seen complicated to us but so no much to the Marines. I used to think it was hard to dissarm a car's starting system, give it maintenance and put it back toguether. After five lessons, I could do it with my eyes closed. Well, maybe with one eye open.

of course, this could be because they might not know how everything works exactly. so realativly speaking, they might be fairly reliable weapons.


kinda like an M-16. it works very well, but if it gets dirty it will jam on you.

the lasgun has a dirt and grime tolerance of a AK-47. it requires cleaning, but won't jam as often as a bolter might.




Space Marines also compensate for the Bolters higher maintanence requirements by being super humans. this is all they do. they are fully mentally in the fight and live for war. they don't take any spare time off llike a guardsmen will(whose thoughts will be on other things)

the Marine has nothing to do but clean and maintain his Bolter. he cleans it every time it gets used. so what if it jams when it gets dirty, it never stays dirty for long.

First:

(which is actually a plasma pulse fired down a laser. basically, its a low grade pulse rifle)

That's Star Wars. Lasguns are not and have never been plasma rifles. We've been over this.

Grey Templar wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The bolter is not real, everything we have been told about it, is what the bolter is. If it's described as complicated and requiring heavy maintenance, that's just how it is.

actually, the basic mechanics which a bolter uses are quite real.


the Gyrojet was a weapon class that was developed to fire caseless rocket propelled solid rounds.

it had problems with accuracy beyond a certain distance, it wasn't lethal within 30 feet, and the rockets often misfired(sometimes igniting a minute after you fired it). you could literally do the Loony Toons thing and stop it with a finger down the barrel.


the Bolter solves the lethality problem by adding an explosive stage when fired. accuracy we can assume is solved with advanced stabilization systems built into the bolt round(the Gyrojet was invented during the 60s so the technology wasn't advanced nearly to the capacity of the idea)



as far as the complexity,

the bolter can't be any more complex then a Lasgun. a Lasgun has all sorts of wierd things to fire its lasbolts...

the bolter simply has the componants we have in modern firearms. mag feed, breech, barrel...

it will have additional equipment in the form of targeting relays which interface with the Power Armor's HUD, but these are extras and have nothing to do with the actual weapons technology.


I would venture to say that it would be entirely possable to make a working bolter right now.

Yes, we could make something that is more or less a bolter if we felt like it, and it would be relatively simple. The bolters in 40k are ridiculously complex, far more than they need to be to do what they do. Imperial tech is comprised of the remnants of what was basically a post-scarcity society, with some improvements over the remnants here and there. Everything is ridiculously complex and advanced, even if it could be done with something simpler and more straightforward.

Beaten to the punch by Pseudo. A Lasgun is a pulse rifle now? Fantastic Grey Templar, what they feth would give you that idea?

Grey Templar wrote:of course, this could be because they might not know how everything works exactly. so realativly speaking, they might be fairly reliable weapons.


kinda like an M-16. it works very well, but if it gets dirty it will jam on you.

the lasgun has a dirt and grime tolerance of a AK-47. it requires cleaning, but won't jam as often as a bolter might.




Space Marines also compensate for the Bolters higher maintanence requirements by being super humans. this is all they do. they are fully mentally in the fight and live for war. they don't take any spare time off llike a guardsmen will(whose thoughts will be on other things)

the Marine has nothing to do but clean and maintain his Bolter. he cleans it every time it gets used. so what if it jams when it gets dirty, it never stays dirty for long.

Last I heard, modern variants of the M16 were more reliable, even under the worst conditions for them (a sandstorm, I believe it was), than modern AK variants under those same conditions. The original AK-47 was more resilient against long-term neglect than just about any other gun ever produced, but even it would jam occasionally, no less, and possibly more than, modern M16s kept in good condition.

Also, lasguns can't jam, they don't have any moving parts aside from the trigger.

Grey Templar wrote:the lasgun has a dirt and grime tolerance of a AK-47.

Oh hell no. The lasgun makes the AK47 look dainty and needy.

not from the fluff i have read.


any way,

the Munitorum Manuel actually gives some insight to a Lasgun's firing mechanisim.

it mentions a gas chamber which the laser agitates. that sounds like a pulse rifle to me.

Grey Templar wrote:not from the fluff i have read.


any way,

the Munitorum Manuel actually gives some insight to a Lasgun's firing mechanisim.

it mentions a gas chamber which the laser agitates. that sounds like a pulse rifle to me.

That's how a laser is produced. See wikipedia on lasers.

I know that.


it mentions agitating the gas and then releasing it in a plasma form.

it says that this is why Las beams are visable to the naked eye.

Grey Templar wrote:not from the fluff i have read.

I have never read of a lasgun jamming. Ever.

It's not in a plasma form though. The description of the laser isn't like what a pulse rifle is either.

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:not from the fluff i have read.

I have never read of a lasgun jamming. Ever.

maybe,

but they do occasionally overheat or explode if the interor gets dirty.

Where? The only time I've seen lasguns exploding was when some form of energy or munitions hit the power packs.

So we're on lasguns now? It's okay. Lasguns are cool, though I don't know too much about them. I'll have to do some research. So, to sum up, Bolters are great weapons with a power to be feared, as long as their user keeps it nice and clean.

Melissia wrote:Where? The only time I've seen lasguns exploding was when some form of energy or munitions hit the power packs.

Lets see, I think it was in one of the Tanith novels.

I think its the one where they were on the planet with loads of dust storms and were fighting cultists.

some random banter in the book about how you better clean the lasgun of the dust or it might explode.


of course, it could be more propaganda so they keep their guns clean(the idea is keeping the guns fully functioning of course)

So is it safe to say that the portrayed of a bolter in Warhammer 40,000: Firewarrior was closest to correct?

Well no, as It's used by a Tau, therefore it is HERESY!

I would say the closest thing would be the one in Space Marine.

The upcoming game, not that movie.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/302581.page

Lasguns wouldn't 'jam' in the sense that some moving part is impeded, but I suppose it would be possible for dirt or something to screw up the 'focusing lens'(if that's the right term).

Bolters are definitely effective as a weapon, much more so than as depicted in TT. Realistically, anything would flak-level armor would be able to slaughtered with a single round to the torso(or head, obviously), if we're to assume that the explosion that that occurs when the bolt detonates is about the size of a basketball(that's what I've always thought, anyway).

The main problem I see is that the ammunition would be unfeasibly expensive to produce, and to some degree, complicated. The bolt rounds themselves are also unusually large(partly because it looks 'grimdark cool', partly because SMs can handle it 'anyway', partly because *maybe* it's a mechanical necessity).

In regard to ammunition not being a problem b/c of the SMs shock trooper nature, let's not forget that they should have access to a considerable wealth of resources and should be very independent and mobile as a fighting force.

Now, someone start a thread about the effectveness of shuriken weapons. Now *that* would be bring a heated debate.

.75 caliber, while large in an ammo sense, isn't exactly massive.


thats about the length of a human finger nail.


assembly line production makes the production of it easy.

the actual designing of the bolter ammo would have been the complicated part, but once you have a design and the machinery to make them it becomes easy.

And yet it's been proven that Bolters and the ammo are not easily mass produced.

maybe not bolters, but where does it say the ammo isn't mass produced?

Grey Templar wrote:

Melissia wrote:Where? The only time I've seen lasguns exploding was when some form of energy or munitions hit the power packs.

Lets see, I think it was in one of the Tanith novels.

I think its the one where they were on the planet with loads of dust storms and were fighting cultists.

some random banter in the book about how you better clean the lasgun of the dust or it might explode.

of course, it could be more propaganda so they keep their guns clean(the idea is keeping the guns fully functioning of course)

I dont know about this particular Tanith novel w.r.t overheating, but in one of the first 6 (i cant remember which omnibus its in) a lasgun does jam and Feygor takes it apart for the other trooper, spits in it and puts it back together and it works fine.


On Topic (and to answer a few earlier comments):
a Marine would be more than capable of keeping his Bolter working.

I havent read any evidence that Bolter ammo is difficult to make (not saying there isnt any, but i havent read any).

ANd who said the Tau had a lower technological level than the IoM? thats kinda the whole point of them is that they are more technologically advanced than the IoM, but of far fewer numbers.

That would be Sir Pseudonymous, and I agree with him, as his reasoning is sound.

the Tau don't have any different tech then the Imperium has, its that they have found a better way to do certain things.



the Tau do have areas where they have absolutly zero technology, namely true Warp Drives(a Biological limitation)


the Tau simply distribute their tech level more evenly then the IoM does.


the Imperium has Railgun technology, but its only currently used on Space Ships. the Tau have just been able to mount the tech on ground vehicles.


alot of mankinds tech is kept locked up by the Ad Mech too.

That doesn't counter the point in any way.

Did it need to?
Extra information is never a bad thing.

I have always seen the Tau as more technologically advanced than the IoM (in every day combat) but not in certain areas, or overall (Warp Tech for example, as said before)

Ok I dont think anyone else brought this up but I remember that in the DA codex they had a bolter with a sickle mag of 6 to 12 rounds, while also noticing that when i look at the pictures and after reading about 4 Black library books it rarely mentions the limit of how much each amrine carries, but common with a magazine the size of a space marines forarm they cant carry to many and also if you look at the pictures almost all of them have marines with no ammo holders what so ever so where in Tyrs name to the get It. I know there Space marines and Nearly ungodly creaures but i would even find it hard to win a war or even battle with 9 Bullets unless each space marines waits to get a 300 and one bullet achievement their is no way in hell its a good with an ammo supply of one cartridge per a man. I have seen bolters with 40 round mags but these are almost always see reserved with veterans. So please tell me how a bolter can be such a good gun when you only have 9 shots to go.

the Vanilla codex claims they are 30 round mags, with pistols having 7-10 rounds.


the barrel and drum mags used by Stormbolters and veteran's bolters are 40-60 rounds each.

Grey Templar wrote:the Vanilla codex claims they are 30 round mags, with pistols having 7-10 rounds.


the barrel and drum mags used by Stormbolters and veteran's bolters are 40-60 rounds each.

Poor poor Dark Angels Not only are they terribel in game but they also suck fluff wise, No wondering they're hiding their sins for they must have screwed up pretty bad for not only the Emporer to screw them but also GW.
But otherwise I will still say the bolter is pretty pathetic for somthing thats limited to basically street fights, but look at what it proebaly costs to produce somthing so hight tech must cost a pretty penny when probaly for the same efficeny you could also mass produce rocckit launchers FLuff wise seeing as the ammunition would prbaly be even cheaper then what ever element their sing for the explding shell.


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Grey Templar wrote:the Vanilla codex claims they are 30 round mags, with pistols having 7-10 rounds.


the barrel and drum mags used by Stormbolters and veteran's bolters are 40-60 rounds each.

And how often do you see a picture of them actually carrying ammo like seriosuly where in gods name do they do for when they empty that gun?

When they are out of ammo the enemies of the Emperor find out why no one has decided to do a serious redesign of the bolter and cut down on some of its weight...
That and they decide to break out the knives...

purplefood wrote:When they are out of ammo the enemies of the Emperor find out why no one has decided to do a serious redesign of the bolter and cut down on some of its weight...
That and they decide to break out the knives...

Silly Codex Astartes Knives are for Space Wolves. But if everything was better in the golden age Why was the armour so much crappy Seeing as they are not advancing is wrong tehy have to be advancing for the way they describe the power armour is that it’s getting better so the mk1 is far superior to the mk2. So why can’t they devlop a gun that uses ammo that is energy ways alot les takes up less space and can punch a hole through a space marines armour.... I believe the Cadians have trademarked that part of warfare for the Imperium and god forbid if some DERPING monkey takes that weapon and makes it equal to the Bolter in range and strength,
But seriously look at this point if a monkey just did what the Imperium of man could never do where does that leave us? Galaxy of the Monkeys.

actually, PA has constantly improved.

Mk1 wasn't sealed and so was useless except on earth.

Mk2 was the first fully sealed suit.


each Mk added more complex systems, such as comm systems, life support systems, and others.

Grey Templar wrote:actually, PA has constantly improved.

Mk1 wasn't sealed and so was useless except on earth.

Mk2 was the first fully sealed suit.


each Mk added more complex systems, such as comm systems, life support systems, and others.

That is what I rembered reading. But this universe where they have hit the technological wall and recinded is as an example the Bolter is kinda crap. Because for godsake they didn/t even deal with the size issue, or the possiblity that with advanced technology Stuff tends to become lighter and smaller, unlike the bolter which is your "ugly fat!@# uncle who only shows up to tell you that he was better in the good old days , and nothing is built the way it used to be" .

think of it like this,

Technological innovation isn't needed.



all the weapons the Imperium has are perfect for the jobs they do.


the Lasgun: unlimited ammo in the form of recharging it. its dirt cheap to manufacture. you can even stick it in a fire or leave it in the sun.

the Lemun Russ: cheap to make, will run on practically anything you put in the tank, powerful and heavily armored.

the Bolter: massive damage dealt to targets, large and intimidating, the wielder is the perfect soldier to compensate for the weapons shortcomings.



in all honesty, necessity is the mother of invention. the Imperium has all the weapons it need to prosecute its wars. it has no need to make better weapons, the weaponry it has is more then sufficient for the task at hand.

But then the imperiums golden age was wrong it was merely the peak before the fall. For if it had truly mastered weapon technology the bolter would almost the perfect gun, yes it has shortcommings, yes the Marines mostly make up for those shortcommings. But if they where still inventing and reserching to make the bolter better a marine with the new bolter would severly out class the marines with the old heavy ammo beast it is.
Also the imperium seems to missing the ingenuity of the Chinesse , they have yet to discover the ability of manufacturing chap knock offs of plasma weapons to which they can mas produce for Imp guard of even marines.
Also the fact that they dont have enough resources or knowledge to create massive amounts of plasma is bull crap they could simply just create a machine to build all the axact parts of the wepaons and then just assemble , no knowledge required for the gun just to build the machine replicating it.

But basically my main point is that maybe the Bolter is a good point But one
1. We are comparing it to modern day technology in which has no right to be compared against the futuristic weapons.
2. The current Bolter should have been replaced by now by somthing better because Advancment and warafre go hand in hand, when the enemy stops advaning the other enemy wins (Tyranids will eventually kill all humans for they are ever adavancing)
3. Too truly see its worth compare it to other futuristic weapons from other genre's and races( either 40k or Sci-fictions) for example the fact that the bolter has to kill by use of force like 90% of the time is sadly really stupid everybody should be issued Hellfire rounds to even stand a chance agaisnt vaporisng gun which only need to hit the target to vaporise the whole thing, where a bolter to the hand simply blows it off and leavves a pissed off Gaurdsman standing there. Pretty much at this level you could compare the bolter to the 50mm cannon used on some light tanks. Now if i was a futuristic soldier firing a gun like that I'd cry because The guy with the pistol that can blow of a land raider obviously has a Technolgoical edge on me, As for tyranids They will eventually became the ulitmate kiling machine weapons that ever adavance to better kill there foe follwed by bio enhancements to boot.

the Imperium doesn't need to equip all its soldiers with plasma weapons.

lasguns are more then sufficient for the job.

Grey Templar wrote:the Imperium doesn't need to equip all its soldiers with plasma weapons.

lasguns are more then sufficient for the job.

And an Imperium with all plasma weapons would say eat it to the max. sure its a good gun but to not advance is to die.

not in 40k,

Weakness is extinction, unchanging ways is not.

Grey Templar wrote:maybe not bolters, but where does it say the ammo isn't mass produced?

For one, it costs more money to get a magazine of boltgun shells for a bolter rifle than it does to buy a boltpistol.

And you could buy five lasguns for the same cost.

Source? where does it say that?

Grey Templar wrote:not in 40k,

Weakness is extinction, unchanging ways is not.

Saying that unchanging is survival, Kinda goes agaisnt everything history teaches you. Because there is always somting that is better and if the better thing is not you your empire crumbles. But suppose a race did appear and was suppremely better at what it did then the empire( cough*matt ward* cough* codex creep*cough) well what then does the empire stick to its guns (pun intended) and die because of this new race and thier new gun or do they change thier tactics/guns/armour, to deal with this new and current threat to thier survival. Even Darwin and almost all Historians and scientist would agree that not changing=death for it the humans ability to adapt and change to it enviroment is what made us able to take over the Galaxy in the first place.

maybe in our still primative world,

but in 40k, things have reached a point of not needing to go further.



there will eventually come a point where it is actually impossable to advance further, or advancement will reach a point of diminishing returns and will cease all together.

Grey Templar wrote:maybe in our still primative world,

but in 40k, things have reached a point of not needing to go further.



there will eventually come a point where it is actually impossable to advance further, or advancement will reach a point of diminishing returns and will cease all together.

Ok if they have truly gottent to that point I woulnd have had to bring up the point of the bolter being freaking huge beast of a machine, of that seeing as its still a point of Hiatus of Tech why can it not do its job better, Why cant they fix the overheating problem with the plasma , The tau did it? Why did the fluff mention that the Razorback with the lascannon and Twinlinked plasma rifle strain the chasis surely they could have easly fixed all these minor errors correct if they have hit such a wall. Another more point if what you just said is true we are allowed still allowed to critic it for its bacground was made in our primitive world and thus would most likely still follow the same rules as ours, also they would have createed the perfect shield and perfect sword to which Iam sure tehy would have gladly handed to the Emporer and such things as him getting his *** handed to him by Horus would have never happened but this Hiatus of technology you were speaking of was not the Perfection to which all problems were solved it was more like rapid development growth , beacuse the other races clearly have technologies we have yet to discover. So yes i Belive strongly that their is a vast amount of improvement left to be made on the bolter because for one it still can still be improved and that should be reason enough to call it a crapy gun.
If you gave anybody the chance to take plasma guns over bolters for no price increase in the fluff world or even gaming world everybody would yell hell yes to that idea because its light, wounds way more than what the bolter can harm, goes thorugh armour, and its light so not effefcted by the ellements.

iproxtaco wrote:It's good in it's role. High rate of fire, power, negligible recoil, short range, durable, with a large amount of alternative ammunition types, perfect for the Space Marine. Any other role and it's definitely not the best weapon to use.

It does not have "negligible recoil".

In The Lost Criid almost lost her arm firing a CSM's bolter.

Also, they are fantastic weapons, but are COMPLETELY outclassed by Pulse Rifles/carbines.


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Grey Templar wrote:maybe in our still primative world,

but in 40k, things have reached a point of not needing to go further.



there will eventually come a point where it is actually impossable to advance further, or advancement will reach a point of diminishing returns and will cease all together.

There really isn't any limit to technology...at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:There really isn't any limit to technology...at all.

Thank you sweet Tau person, But basically the wall of developing technology is either Stupidity, or the actaully possiblility of a perfect world in which we have the means thorugh technology to play god to the extent of which the basically anything possible can be done(I.E physics debate in which it starts to out class us all because we have not yet learned the true limits and capabilities of what can and cannot be done, This is because we are limited to are current knowledge of things we have interacted observed and theorised. Any body up for a problem envoling a cat in a box?) But until that we can still say thier is no limit to what technology can acehieve, and until then the bolter could be drastically improved to become a better gun or even be replaced all together by a more effective all around gun. Because right now the PLasma rifle completely outclasses the bolter in effectivesness and functionnality for what they were designed to do.

Grey Eldar, learn some freaking grammar and spelling. Your text is almost completely unbroken and is severely lacking in punctuation and spelling.

A Bolter isn't really a good gun, sure it has a huge damage capability, but that's mitigated by the amount of ammo available and the way in which it is fired. A sickle magazine with 30 rounds in it can be fired ten times. The space marine codex says it fires in 3 round bursts, and I have never heard of a fire selector for the thing. Secondly, the ammo is HUGE. Look at the bolter casings on the that Ultramarine scout seargent. That's the size of a single shot. Even a space marine couldn't carry more than a few hundred rounds of ammunition simply because of it's actual volume. In Vietnam it wasn't unheard of for a GI to carry 1500 rounds of m16 ammo. (There is a Vietnam vet who fought with the Marines in the village near my farm, he tells stories sometimes when we're drinking in his garage.)

Not to mention that the point where technology becomes redundant is when we become energy based beings. Short of that you should still be inventing.

Secondly, once you have a method of generating sufficient power rail-weapons are the way to go. A one kilogram slug when shot at sufficient velocity impacts with they same force as the bomb that destroyed hiroshima. Plasma doesn't really have gak on that, not to mention when a spinning round hits an object the space of damage inflicted is greater than that of its size. Go shoot a 98k through a wet block of clay, you can put your fist through the hole.

Another inanity of the Bolter is that its rounds explode on contact. That by itself is only worth it if you are shooting at something really big. A .75 caliber shot will blow apart any man, to something short of an elephant, sized creature. Just go look at the sniper footage from Afghanistan. A .50 caliber round will literally blow your torso into bits. The explosive is overkill in almost all cases, and you actually want a solid round anyways, as it allows the bullet to potentially pass through and wound anything behind the target as well. When the British were fighting the Zulus the bullet from the Martini-Henry rifle could easily pass through one warrior and kill the one running behind him. A comparative round, a hollow point, does incredible amounts of damage to a single target, but won't pass through with sufficient force to damage anything behind it.

So basically, a Bolter may be good a single fire weapon, but it really is not effective when used in a rapid fire setting where consumption of ammunition is high and the round is overkill for its target.

yes, the Tau "fixed" plasma.

said plasma weaponry is also much weaker then the Imperium's.


the Imperium isn't concerned about burning some dudes eyebrows off, it wants its enemies incinerated.



the Munitorum manuel mentions that Bolters have semi-auto, 3 round burst, and full auto settings. it then cautions that only space marines should ever fire the thing on burst or full auto.

But still there are ways to improve its effectiveness to the point of creating a gun the allows the Marine to carry sufficent ammo, kill almost anything it hits(poison).... the list goes on, pretty much alot remains to be desired about the bolter as far as technology goes, because it would be very possible to create a more effective weapon with or with out the adavancement of technology. So as far as combat effectiveness i would rate it as subpar or maybe even ok but Can be greatly outclassed by other weapons for what is was designed to do.

Grey Templar wrote:Source? where does it say that?

I predict yet another Dark Heresy game stat.

I read the book Dead Man Walking (never read that book BTW) lasguns had mantienance kits, for undisclosed reasons. Not to mention, why would someone make a lasgun so easy to take apart? If a lasgun never jams, why would one take it apart?

However, on to the bolters. I think of them as if someone made a min RPG, and found out how to make it fire rapidly. Their just mini missle lauchers.

On a side note, a Techpriest praying to the Machine God, for aid in repairing a broken machine reminds me of me praying to any sort of God at all, that my computer willnoy bluescreen.

The Crusader Of 42 wrote:Not to mention, why would someone make a lasgun so easy to take apart? If a lasgun never jams, why would one take it apart?

Cleaning & General Field Maintianence? Just because it won't jam, doesn't mean that you don't have to take care of it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's good in it's role. High rate of fire, power, negligible recoil, short range, durable, with a large amount of alternative ammunition types, perfect for the Space Marine. Any other role and it's definitely not the best weapon to use.

It does not have "negligible recoil".

In The Lost Criid almost lost her arm firing a CSM's bolter.

Also, they are fantastic weapons, but are COMPLETELY outclassed by Pulse Rifles/carbines.

Oh goody here comes the Tau. They have negligible recoil because Space Marines and Sororitas are it's main wielders, they both wear power armor, thus the recoil for them is negligible. For a normal human sure, but there are very few who choose to wield one, hence overall there's no point talking about it's recoil.
No they really really aren't. I'm sure that we've talked about this in other threads, but the bolter is the perfect weapon for Astartes. Pulse rifles and Carbines are equal to it in power shot for shot, but are inferior to a bolter in the bolters desired field of operation, which is close range. I would much rather have a guardsmen wield a pulse rifle over a lasgun if it had unlimited ammo and was as easy to produce, but not a Space Marine.

How odd. I recall reading the distinction in dark heresy but I can't find it.

There has to be SOME distinction between auto weapons and stub weapons. There are plenty of automatic stub weapons and some semi-auto autoweapons so it can't be full auto...

Grey Templar wrote:Source? where does it say that?

Dark Heresy. A lasgun costs a civilian ~75 thrones (standard or at least the most common imperial monetary unit), a single bolter shell costs 16. Boltguns hold 24-28 depending on the pattern.

As for pulse riflescarbines, they don't really outclass boltguns outside of C:Tau.

I would NOT consider Dark Heresy to be completely accurate.



Bolters might be expensive for the characters in Dark Heresy to accuire. I imagine bolters are held in awe and might even have restrictions on Civilian ownership, hence the increased cost.


but for Marines the cost wouldn't be significant. often, entire Forge Worlds are dedicated to suppying Astartes with equipment.

Grey Templar wrote:but for Marines the cost wouldn't be significant. often, entire Forge Worlds are dedicated to suppying Astartes with equipment.

Marines don't use currency to begin with. I was merely putting the cost of the ammo and equipment in comparison to that of the Guard. Actually, Astartes stuff would be MORE extravagantly expensive.

yes, but in that case Cost is moot.


the Astartes probably pay in protection for the Forge World. they don't want to lose their supply line.

fluff wise, its great. It blows chunks out of enemies and has always been a great firearm. However in-game I dont like it. I much prefer the bolter with special ammunition provided by the Sternguard.

Also: What are the fire modes of a bolter? I always believed it was single and burst, never fully automatic.

it has semi-auto, 3 round burst, and full auto according to the Munitorum Manuel.


marines rarely use the full-auto setting because they are so deadly accurate they don't need to use the spray n pray method. Semi-auto is just as good because they can fire, accuire new target, and fire again so quickly.

The bolter is one of two things, a very large Ruger 10/22 (recoil operated), or a Klasnicof AK47 (gas operated). in the SM codex that a bolter is extremely complex, and judging from the model (little sealed pipes above and bellow the barrel) that it is gass opperated. Firing a bolter shell through this would quickly foul the gas pistons (a fault of the round not the gun)(hence to two pistons). Given that it will quickly foul and sease to operate efectivly or all together, it is not a gould choice of weapon for engagements lasting for extended periods of time firing several hundred rounds.

As to the penitrating power, the .50 cal will go through an engine block with no trouble(solid steel), is not always explosive and does not poses rocket engines. Therefore th3 IIRC .75 cal miniture RPG that is the bolt gun *will have no problem peircing a tank* let alone power armour.

Acuracy, I dout its acruracy at range, but SM's usualy ingage at medium to short range, are excilent maksmen, and fire semi automatic or burst fire will more than likely hit the target.

The boltgun is as effective as it needs to be, SM's are a rapid strike fource, so operasion of the firearm is not impared, shortrange combined with semi auto makes it acurate, and a good heavy round makes it devistating.

The job defines this gun, comparing it to a lasgun is like comparing a fighter jet to a tank. They are two different things ment to do the same thing (blow stuff up) under different surcumstances, and therefore can not be acuratly compared.

When issued to gaurdsmen though, you have a different case, its to big, heavy and unreliable and does not fit the IG's needs.

Grey Templar wrote:yes, but in that case Cost is moot.


the Astartes probably pay in protection for the Forge World. they don't want to lose their supply line.

Cost is NEVER moot.

Resources are finite, if only because it takes time and effort find and transport them. The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example.

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example.

Source?

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example.

Source?

I don't recall the exact source, but for chapters such as the Black Dragons and others which are on the edge of acceptability or have wronged the Imperium, it's part of their penance along with their crusade (along with being refused the right to recruit initiates).

Besides, it's EASILY within the authority of the Inquisition to re-route supply convoys.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example.

Source?

I don't recall the exact source, but for chapters such as the Black Dragons and others which are on the edge of acceptability or have wronged the Imperium, it's part of their penance along with their crusade (along with being refused the right to recruit initiates).

Besides, it's EASILY within the authority of the Inquisition to re-route supply convoys.

So, no actual fluff examples, just conjecture.

Does absolutely everything need a confirmed source? IMO only the things which sound ridiculous and made-up should need a definite source. It's not too hard to imagine The Inquisition doing such a thing, I could have told you they would do that without reading it somewhere.

Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.

No I remember that story about the Black Dragons as well. I can't remember what codex it was in, or it may have been a WD article, but it was definitely there.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.

And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.

And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

Space MArine vs. Inquistion debates seem to be in vogue right now but as I've said before: As always, it depends on the Chapter and the Inquisitor.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.

And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

That ignores the fact that, by and large, the Inquisition leaves Astartes alone. Meddling with them usually doesn't bring about good results.

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.

And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

That ignores the fact that, by and large, the Inquisition leaves Astartes alone. Meddling with them usually doesn't bring about good results.

Such a fact is tangental at best, and completely and utterly irrelevant at worst. I merely stated the capability was there, not that it was commonly practiced.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.

And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

That ignores the fact that, by and large, the Inquisition leaves Astartes alone. Meddling with them usually doesn't bring about good results.

Such a fact is tangental at best, and completely and utterly irrelevant at worst. I merely stated the capability was there, not that it was commonly practiced.

Well, no. You stated that the Inquisition does in fact cut off supply lines to chapters they're not fond of, not that they simply have the capability to do so. Your exact words were, "The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example." That's not arguing capability, that's arguing practice. And it's a practice that is, heretofore, unsubstantiated.

A loyalist Astartes chapter has the capability to board and carry an Imperial Navy ship because they like it. Doesn't mean they do it.

Seaward wrote:Well, no. You stated that the Inquisition does in fact cut off supply lines to chapters they're not fond of, not that they simply have the capability to do so.

And I gave an example.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Well, no. You stated that the Inquisition does in fact cut off supply lines to chapters they're not fond of, not that they simply have the capability to do so.

And I gave an example.

No, you made up an example, as there's no fluff supporting it.

Ratbarf wrote:Grey Eldar, learn some freaking grammar and spelling. Your text is almost completely unbroken and is severely lacking in punctuation and spelling.

A Bolter isn't really a good gun, sure it has a huge damage capability, but that's mitigated by the amount of ammo available and the way in which it is fired. A sickle magazine with 30 rounds in it can be fired ten times. The space marine codex says it fires in 3 round bursts, and I have never heard of a fire selector for the thing. Secondly, the ammo is HUGE. Look at the bolter casings on the that Ultramarine scout seargent. That's the size of a single shot. Even a space marine couldn't carry more than a few hundred rounds of ammunition simply because of it's actual volume. In Vietnam it wasn't unheard of for a GI to carry 1500 rounds of m16 ammo. (There is a Vietnam vet who fought with the Marines in the village near my farm, he tells stories sometimes when we're drinking in his garage.)

Not to mention that the point where technology becomes redundant is when we become energy based beings. Short of that you should still be inventing.

Secondly, once you have a method of generating sufficient power rail-weapons are the way to go. A one kilogram slug when shot at sufficient velocity impacts with they same force as the bomb that destroyed hiroshima. Plasma doesn't really have gak on that, not to mention when a spinning round hits an object the space of damage inflicted is greater than that of its size. Go shoot a 98k through a wet block of clay, you can put your fist through the hole.

Another inanity of the Bolter is that its rounds explode on contact. That by itself is only worth it if you are shooting at something really big. A .75 caliber shot will blow apart any man, to something short of an elephant, sized creature. Just go look at the sniper footage from Afghanistan. A .50 caliber round will literally blow your torso into bits. The explosive is overkill in almost all cases, and you actually want a solid round anyways, as it allows the bullet to potentially pass through and wound anything behind the target as well. When the British were fighting the Zulus the bullet from the Martini-Henry rifle could easily pass through one warrior and kill the one running behind him. A comparative round, a hollow point, does incredible amounts of damage to a single target, but won't pass through with sufficient force to damage anything behind it.

So basically, a Bolter may be good a single fire weapon, but it really is not effective when used in a rapid fire setting where consumption of ammunition is high and the round is overkill for its target.

Agreed in every way.

Railguns are arguably the most deadly form of weaponry conceivable, as are gauss weapons (not like the necrons use, that is NOT how gauss weapons work).

If your barrel has enough heat resistance, you can fire at rates that make absolutely no sense. The projectiles are almost incalculably powerful. The force of the shot generates so much friction and thermal energy that it is turned to plasma, and it is followed by a plume of fire. When railgun munitions hit it is liquified by plasma, blasted with an incalculably powerful shell, then burned with an enormous blaze.

Picture of a modern RG firing:

Also, if this could be incorporated into small-arms rather than simply ship-mounted primary weaponry, a soldier with a rail-rifle would be ably to wipe his arse with tanks and demolish buildings.

/railgasm.