I know that this topic has already begun in another thread, but thought that it would be better served starting one up for itself.

With the release of the new rule book FAQ, and the update to the psychic shooting attacks, this may have big impacts on JotWW and other powers. I would like for this to be a discussion for both sides to post their arguments without getting into feet stopping “I’m right and you’re not” arguments, since honestly I can see both sides and am conflicted myself.
Now, the BRB says that specific outweighs general. So, is this a case of the Rune Priest powers having specific instructions that are to be used in the place of the general.

BRB FAQ
Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes.

This to me seems to be pretty easy to understand. But the SW codex description of how some of the powers will work has their own set of rules. Murderous Hurricane for example says that the target units will suffer 3D6 hits at Strength 3 at AP -. Now when reading the new FAQ, it meets the requirement for needing to roll to hit since it has a range, strength and AP value. However it also says that the target unit suffers “hits” and not Type: Assault 3D6, like the rules for living lightning, and other lightning attacks that librarians have. So this to me looks like no role for hits required and is a case of specific overrules general.
On the other while scrutinizing the SW FAQ after reading the new BRB FAQ, I just noticed this:

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound its target to affect them? (p37)
A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound.

Now the part that jumped out at me is the “if the power fails to hit or wound.” This would imply that if the power is successfully cast, there is a chance that the power will not even hit. This would reinforce the new BRB FAQ and having to roll to hit.

Now for JotWW, this is going to be a touchy topic. The rules for JotWW say trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24 inches away. The rules spell out the process for casting this power step by step, because it is so different than the standard psychic shooting attack. Is this because the power itself does not cause a wound? I don’t know, maybe. But let’s look at the power if you did have to roll to shoot. Take and pass a psychic test, the power IS now cast. A model is selected as the target, and a line is drawn. The line is a direct representation of the crevice that is the JotWW, and continues on past the target model and possibly over other models behind it. You roll to hit and say you miss. Well now what, the power is successfully cast, the JotWW crevice did occur. And the SW FAQ says “The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!” This by itself says that the models that were not the initial target will in fact be hit automatically. So I say again, if the roll to hit is missed against the initial target, what happens? Is the initial target therefore exempt from having to take his initiative test since the roll to hit has missed him, and all those that just so happens to be behind him get screwed, and are hit anyway? This clearly seems like a case of specific overrules general. Implementing the new FAQ on this power will only benefit the initial target model.

When are the specific rules ever enough to outweigh general? The GW FAQ ruled very clearly that the dreadnought “vehicle” is in fact a scoring unit when used in conjunction with grand strategy. The BRB is very clear that vehicles are not scoring units. The codex was already clear from the get go, but had to be spelled out in the FAQ to finally get people to believe. Specific > General. Now this does not go to say the GW will not go back and change things for the SW and other armies, but as it stands now……

I hope what I have said has come out of my head properly and everyone understands my ramblings. Let the posting commence!!!

It's unfortunate then that orks don't have the same exception. A big mek makes deff dreads troops, but not scoring. Shame really, I'd like to see some real stompa armies.

I am gonna go with the one persons idea that all PSA had to role to hit anyways since they were clearly defined as a ranged weapon. So why now would a FAQ that just restates the point that they are ranged weapons and hence have to roll to hit change how they are played. Otherwise we have been playing Jaws wrong for the last 2 or 3 Years? So if it didn't have to roll to hit before how would this change the fact that it was a ranged weapon and did ignore the rule that it had to roll to hit?
So my basic opinion is that no murderous Hurricane and Jaws do not have to roll to hit until SW has been FAQ-ed and tells us too.
P.S( CURSE YOU MATT WARD, for you have saved us from GK horror only to have us fight brother against brother over the edicts of holy FAQ, I now know the true face of chaos...... you)

Posted in the FAQ thread already but a good thing to post it here in a thread dedicated to said specific topic.

First paragraph of page 50, Psykers;

"These powers vary from race to race and sometimes from individual psykers to another. The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the Codexes, where you will find complete rules for individual powers. The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the Codexes"

MH, Jaws, Thunderclap, and Fury of the Wolf Spirits all have exceptions to the rules of the BRB from not needing to roll to hit to allowing two psychic shooting profiles to be fired as a single psychic shooting attack. Living Lightning does not have any exceptions.

This applies to other codexes that may have psychic shooting attacks that also contain exceptions to the rules of the BRB in regard to being psychic shooting attacks.

Brother Ramses, I give you thee biggest wolf belch right now . HARUMPH. But seriously thank you for clarifying that.

We've always treated JotWW like a template so it doesn't need to hit. If you read the FAQ, GW says they turn their tape messure sideways and use that. That sounds template-ish enough for me.

Oh, I don't play SW and I get owned by about three different SW players 60% of the time so I'm trying to be objective.

I will go on to say tha nowhere in the Space Wolves FAQ does it say that it does not require a roll to hit.
In the Space wolves FAQ we have
Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

So it's not a template (because it doesn't say anywhere that it is a template) and it targets the first model it hits

In short is it a PSA? Yes
Does it say anywhere that it is exempt from rolling to hit? No
Does it target a model/unit? Yes
Based on the new FAQ is it now clarified that it requires a roll to hit? Yes

So it requires a roll to hit

BR - so where is the exception stating that you do not needd to roll to hit the first model for Jaws?

You keep ducking this point, in every thread where you've been asked.

You draw a line. The models on the line are affected. A roll to hit doesn't come into it.

You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

As stated in the new FAQ, you do need to roll to hit...but only for the first model targeted.

Mind war is like this as well for any eldar players reading this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

Exactly, just like vibrocannons.

I guess Nurgle's Rot just got even worse, then. It was an okay power because you can use it while in assault. But now, you've got to hit with it as well? Although it doesn't say it's a PSA, it has a range, a strength and an AP.

It says "all enemy models within 6" suffer a str. 3 hit". Does this mean that you still need to roll to hit? Or did the models suffer a hit? Which is it, because if you're rolling to hit, then "all models within 6"" haven't suffered a hit, which is against the wording of the power.

Using this same logic, you'd have to roll to hit for Warp Rift (which doesn't normally roll since it's a template) and Vortex of Doom (which normally uses the scatter rules since it's a blast weapon).

If the power tells you how to target enemy models (e.g. "draw a line" or "pick an enemy model"), you don't need to roll to hit. Assuming that JotWW works like a Vibro Cannon is just guesswork.

Yakface wrote:This will never get an errata because it isn't something that GW will ever recognize. People online tend to want to read FAQ questions and answers as if they are rules in a rulebook, which they aren't. They are specific questions to game situations with answers given to those questions. Trying to divorce the answer from the context of the question and then read them like stand alone rules will quite often result in ludicrous interpretation.

Interpreting the FAQ to say "Psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit. Always. No exceptions." is silly.

puma713 wrote:I guess Nurgle's Rot just got even worse, then. It was an okay power because you can use it while in assault. But now, you've got to hit with it as well? Although it doesn't say it's a PSA, it has a range, a strength and an AP.

It says "all enemy models within 6" suffer a str. 3 hit". Does this mean that you still need to roll to hit? Or did the models suffer a hit? Which is it, because if you're rolling to hit, then "all models within 6"" haven't suffered a hit, which is against the wording of the power.

You don't need to roll to hit because it says that models suffer a 'hit'. This is the same as all 'template' powers (which use the rules for templates hitting).

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Well that will also include weapon type. Psychic shooting attacks like living lightning, fury of the wolf spirit and smite have a weapon stat line and a weapon type.

-----------------------------Range-----------Strength-------AP---------Type
Living Lightning------Unlimited-------------7--------------5---------Assault D6

Powers like these are shooting attacks, they have a profile like that of a ranged weapon. JowWW does not have a profile like that of a ranged weapon, but it does call it a psychic shooting attack.

Will a psychic shooting attack ever not require a roll to hit? YES

Thunderclap is a prime example. It specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack. Yet it tells you to place a large blast template so that it is touching the Rune Priest. It does not scatter. This is a contradiction to the rules, yet it has a specific set of instructions that override the rules.

Warprift is called a psychic shooting attack, and has a range of template, just like a flamer weapon profile. Do you roll to hit with this? No you do not roll to hit with template.

Now somebody please answer this one. Do all shooting attacks require a roll to hit? No, exception template.

Here is another one that I would like someone to answer. If you have to roll to hit with JotWW and miss, does the line go away? No it doesn't. The power is cast and the line is drawn for 24 inches, a long thin template, not requiring a hit roll. If you rolled and missed the primary target, does it miss all others that are behind the target that under the 24 inch line? No. The SW FAQ states that everyone else just so happens to get hit as it passes through. The FAQ also says that the model that you must have line of sight with is "in effect he is treated as the target model" Meaning the reference point in which to draw your line through and then on to the other models behind.

There are exceptions to the rules, and these are but a few.

merlin96 wrote:
Thunderclap is a prime example. It specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack. Yet it tells you to place a large blast template so that it is touching the Rune Priest. It does not scatter. This is a contradiction to the rules, yet it has a specific set of instructions that override the rules.

Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter. It just tells you how to place the blast marker. Since it's a psychic shooting attack, it will then scatter from there.

Telling you to place it in contact with the RP is just like telling you to place a Plasma Cannons marker centered on an enemy. They both still scatter.

The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - so where is the exception stating that you do not needd to roll to hit the first model for Jaws?

You keep ducking this point, in every thread where you've been asked.

Holy crap Nos, the very rule entry for Jaws shows that the power NEVER hits. If it never HITS, how does it need a roll to HIT? Any eligible model that the line TOUCHES takes an Initiative test, not any model that the power HITS.

By all means, please tell me what you are rolling to hit for when you never hit a model with the power?

Xarian wrote:Using this same logic, you'd have to roll to hit for Warp Rift (which doesn't normally roll since it's a template)

The rulebook tells us how to hit with Templates (pg 29). It doesn't make any mention of lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:
By all means, please tell me what you are rolling to hit for

Because it's a psychic shooting attack. It doesn't have to hit models for that to be true.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

So wrong that baby Jesus kittens are crying.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

Please Nos, tell me how you determine which model is affected by Jaws and thus the target if you have not already passed your psychic test, placed your line, and AFFECTED the first model in LOS?

You can't pull GW (George W Bush) funky logic and say that the target is affected by the power before the power has affected the target. You can't pull funky logic and tell me that you need to roll to hit AFTER a target has been already affected by the model to determine LOS. The one thing you can do is accept that Jaws is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks and that it never hits a model, only touches models, and therefore never needs a to-hit roll.

DarknessEternal wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

This is incorrect and based on cherry picking. The power specifically states when you pass the psychic test and target a unit within 18" you cause 3d6 HITS. If you had to roll to hit, they would have made it just like living lightning, and called it an assault 3d6 weapon with str 3 ap -; It would have had a ranged weapon profile, which it does not.

The quote about whether the power is required to hit is an, albeit ridiculous, ruling that when you target a unit with it, regardless of damage done, or even that the unit is in range, the diff/dangerous terrain clause will still always take effect.

Honestly, they should have left the hit part out, and just stated that you didn't have to cause any wounds for the diff/dangerous terrain to take effect.

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

So wrong that baby Jesus kittens are crying.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

Please Nos, tell me how you determine which model is affected by Jaws and thus the target if you have not already passed your psychic test, placed your line, and AFFECTED the first model in LOS?

You can't pull GW (George W Bush) funky logic and say that the target is affected by the power before the power has affected the target. You can't pull funky logic and tell me that you need to roll to hit AFTER a target has been already affected by the model to determine LOS. The one thing you can do is accept that Jaws is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks and that it never hits a model, only touches models, and therefore never needs a to-hit roll.

You know, the very FAQ you just quoted says the exact opposite of you last sentence. Just saying...

Jidmah wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

So wrong that baby Jesus kittens are crying.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

Please Nos, tell me how you determine which model is affected by Jaws and thus the target if you have not already passed your psychic test, placed your line, and AFFECTED the first model in LOS?

You can't pull GW (George W Bush) funky logic and say that the target is affected by the power before the power has affected the target. You can't pull funky logic and tell me that you need to roll to hit AFTER a target has been already affected by the model to determine LOS. The one thing you can do is accept that Jaws is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks and that it never hits a model, only touches models, and therefore never needs a to-hit roll.

You know, the very FAQ you just quoted says the exact opposite of you last sentence. Just saying...

Which would fall under the same rules of MH in that the hits are outright granted or do you propose that those specifically granted hit in the FAQ would also now need to be rolled to hit as well?

You do know that the BRB tells you that there will be exceptions to the general psychic shooting attacks rules, which would include the new FAQ that psychic shooting attacks need a to hit roll. Just saying....

I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit. And I would play it that way since it looks like it can be argued both ways. That is not that big of an issue to me.

What I am saying is that if people take the simplistic narrow logic that ALL PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACKS must roll to hit, even template powers like flamer must also roll to hit. This is just plain untrue. Apparently GW felt that many people thought that PSA in general was considered by many to be exempt from rolling. This just verifies that you do like weapons. But as stated there are exceptions.

JotWW is a line on the ground. Just like a flamer template you can aim it at a model, but in this case it will cause each model to handle the outcome individually much like dangerous terrain tests. Models that are over the line have to take an initiative test. The first model is only a reference point, "in effect he is treated as the target model." He is not hit and will never suffer a wound like a shooting attack would.

Those advocating that you will have to roll to hit, please post your thoughts on what happens if you fail the hit the first model. Since he is only a reference point on which the line is drawn, and the line WILL extend past the first model, what happens to the others behind it that the line passes through?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Which would fall under the same rules of MH in that the hits are outright granted or do you propose that those specifically granted hit in the FAQ would also now need to be rolled to hit as well?

The attack needs to hit. Then number of "hits" for wound purposes is rolled for and granted. Only 1 "to hit" roll is needed, and it is for the PSA itself.

Brother Ramses wrote:
You do know that the BRB tells you that there will be exceptions to the general psychic shooting attacks rules, which would include the new FAQ that psychic shooting attacks need a to hit roll. Just saying....

Can you address the contradiction instead of dodging? It appears JOTWW does indeed cause hits. So a "to hit" roll seems logical for that PSA, just like the rest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beamo wrote:If you had to roll to hit, they would have made it just like living lightning, and called it an assault 3d6 weapon with str 3 ap -; It would have had a ranged weapon profile, which it does not.

Actually it does not behave like an assault 3d6 weapon because individual hits are not rolled. That is why it is not listed that way. Instead, only 1 "to hit" is required for the PSA. Then 3d6 "hits" are granted. They are not rolled for as an assault 3d6 weapon would be.

Brother Ramses:
1) I agree with you that rolling for JotWW silly, and without the SW FAQ, there would be no argument for it. Hopefully GW will FAQ this one day.
2) However in the SW FAQ there is a target and LoS requirement, so nothing prevents the new BRB FAQ from forcing a to-hit roll from you, even the consequences are clear.
3) Trying to convince you of anything is like filling a barrel full of holes with water, so I won't.

But the issue also is the fact that rolling to hit the first model does not negate the power. The line still continues on, and still passes through other models. If anything only the first model will be have a shot of being 'missed.'

merlin96 wrote:But the issue also is the fact that rolling to hit the first model does not negate the power. The line still continues on, and still passes through other models. If anything only the first model will be have a shot of being 'missed.'

If a straight line misses the first target but still hits what's behind it, doesn't it cease to be a straight line? Unless of course we've got some wierd space/time distortion thing going on here.

If you miss the first, you miss the rest.

merlin96 wrote:But the issue also is the fact that rolling to hit the first model does not negate the power. The line still continues on, and still passes through other models. If anything only the first model will be have a shot of being 'missed.'

If you miss it seems the line did not land where you intended, so why would the other models still be affected?

But where does it say when the line is negated? Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment). Psychic test is past, and the line happens (That just happened!!!). Hope everyone gets my movie quote, lol. Instead of the power affecting a set ratios of x inches, it affects a 24 inch line.

merlin96 wrote:Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment).

Tempest is not a PSA, so it is not comparable. MH follows the same "to hit" rule as JOTWW.

Think of it this way:

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
3) Roll for effects

merlin96 wrote:But where does it say when the line is negated? Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment). Psychic test is past, and the line happens (That just happened!!!). Hope everyone gets my movie quote, lol. Instead of the power affecting a set ratios of x inches, it affects a 24 inch line.

Neither of those effect the board at all. They only affect units within 24" of the Rune Priest (TW) or the unit that was targeted (MH). Neither of them change the board. Bad examples.

Choboking wrote:

merlin96 wrote:Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment).

Tempest is not a PSA, so it is not comparable. MH follows the same "to hit" rule as JOTWW.

Think of it this way:

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
3) Roll for effects

In the case of MH, the rule specifically tells you where the hits go, to the target unit. That kills your second step concept. The codex specific rule is an exception to the BRB general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

1. Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2. Effects of psychic power are in affect.
2. Target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits.
3. Roll for wounds.
4. Saves are taken.
5. Casualities removed.

Okay, bad example. But line fore line lets look at it.

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
----------Yes, the line is drawn 24 inches.
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
-----------Yes, I just drew a line for it, just like a template and aimed it. Do you roll to hit on a flamer? A flamer is a shooting attack, right. The SW FAQ says "in effect he is treated as the target model." In effect is "like" not "is" the target.
3) Roll for effects
-----------And because it requires each model to take a initiative test, that is why a specific model can be eliminated

Why would a failed roll to hit cause the 24 inch line on the ground to stop. The only time I can think of that it may be stopped is if the power is nulled by another psyker.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Choboking wrote:

merlin96 wrote:Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment).

Tempest is not a PSA, so it is not comparable. MH follows the same "to hit" rule as JOTWW.

Think of it this way:

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
3) Roll for effects

In the case of MH, the rule specifically tells you where the hits go, to the target unit. That kills your second step concept. The codex specific rule is an exception to the BRB general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

1. Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2. Effects of psychic power are in affect.
2. Target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits.
3. Roll for wounds.
4. Saves are taken.
5. Casualities removed.

The hits only go there if the attack lands properly. Nothing about the wording of that spell exempts it from needing to hit the unit. Once the attack lands, then the amount of wound causing hits can be determined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

merlin96 wrote:
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
-----------Yes, I just drew a line for it, just like a template and aimed it. Do you roll to hit on a flamer? A flamer is a shooting attack, right. The SW FAQ says "in effect he is treated as the target model." In effect is "like" not "is" the target. .

JOTWW is not a template attack. You have made that up. Behaving like a template (in that it is a line), does not confer template status to the spell.

Actually it does state that they are hits and not shots.

BRB pg. 27
Some weapons such as storm bolters and multi-lasers fire multiple shots. Where this is the case the number of shot a weapon fires is noted after its type. For example, a multi-laser fires three shots in each shooting phase so its type is noted as Heavy 3.

So, shots are not the same as hits. You roll for the number of shots to see how many hits you get. After you determine the amount of hits, then roll for wounds and so on....

SW Codes p. 37
This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -.

This power does not specify how many shots, it skips that part and goes directly to the unit suffering 3D6 hits.

That is why this power also is another example that there are exception to the PSA rule.

I never said that JotWW was a template, it is an example. The rules for JotWW only state that you draw a line from the Rune Priest. The SW FAQ only clarifies that it can in fact be targeted at a specific model. Example, if you use a template flamer, you cover as many models as you can right? For the JotWW, you do the same thing, you cover as many models as you can to get the maximum effect. The SW FAQ only states that the first model must be in line of sight, because it is a line. That is it.

merlin96 wrote:Actually it does state that they are hits and not shots.

BRB pg. 27
Some weapons such as storm bolters and multi-lasers fire multiple shots. Where this is the case the number of shot a weapon fires is noted after its type. For example, a multi-laser fires three shots in each shooting phase so its type is noted as Heavy 3.

So, shots are not the same as hits. You roll for the number of shots to see how many hits you get. After you determine the amount of hits, then roll for wounds and so on....

SW Codes p. 37
This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -.

This power does not specify how many shots, it skips that part and goes directly to the unit suffering 3D6 hits.

That is why this power also is another example that there are exception to the PSA rule.

This is not in conflict with what I said. Yes, the attack inflicts "hits" not shots. But the attack itself must first hit its target as it is a PSA. You do not roll individual "hits/shots" as you would with a bolter. Rather, if the spell lands, you get 3D6 hits and proceed to roll them for wounds.

Choboking wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Choboking wrote:

merlin96 wrote:Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment).

Tempest is not a PSA, so it is not comparable. MH follows the same "to hit" rule as JOTWW.

Think of it this way:

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
3) Roll for effects

In the case of MH, the rule specifically tells you where the hits go, to the target unit. That kills your second step concept. The codex specific rule is an exception to the BRB general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

1. Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2. Effects of psychic power are in affect.
2. Target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits.
3. Roll for wounds.
4. Saves are taken.
5. Casualities removed.

The hits only go there if the attack lands properly. Nothing about the wording of that spell exempts it from needing to hit the unit. Once the attack lands, then the amount of wound causing hits can be determined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

merlin96 wrote:
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
-----------Yes, I just drew a line for it, just like a template and aimed it. Do you roll to hit on a flamer? A flamer is a shooting attack, right. The SW FAQ says "in effect he is treated as the target model." In effect is "like" not "is" the target. .

JOTWW is not a template attack. You have made that up. Behaving like a template (in that it is a line), does not confer template status to the spell.

The wording of the psyhic power is very specific in that the target unit takes hits. As has been pointed out this shows that it is an exception to the general rule for psychic shooting attacks. It bypasses the general rules by telling you specifically that the target unit takes 3d6 hits.

How do you determine how many hits you have? By first rolling the number of shots to see which are hits. Thus the number of shots is before you figure out how many hits.

A psychic test is taken to see if the power is cast. You pass. In this case it already hits because the rules bypass the number of shots that may cause hits, because the unit suffers 3D6 HITS. Then you roll to wound.

I fear we are going in circles. It seems you both are just ignoring, or perhaps not understanding what I am saying. These 3D6 hits are the effect of the PSA. In order for that effect to occur, the PSA itself must first hit the target.

The wording does not exempt it from this rule. If the PSA misses, the effect of that attack is negated. If the PSA hits, then its effects occur as described in the codex.

Bolters do not specify what happens when they miss either.

Few things do, really.

merlin96 wrote:I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit.

Shooting attacks can also fail to hit because the target is outside of range or not in LOS. You declare your target and then measure for range and LOS. Failure to be within range or LOS is an automatic miss.

wyomingfox wrote:

merlin96 wrote:I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit.

Shooting attacks can also fail to hit because the target is outside of range or not in LOS. You declare your target and then measure for range and LOS. Failure to be within range or LOS is an automatic miss.

You are advocating then that you could be behind a building with no LOS to anything and target a unit 50" away with Murderous Hurricane and have it auto-miss both because you're out of range and because you don't have line of sight because you're behind a building and that unit still treats all terrain as difficult and dangerous? I know what the SW FAQ says, and now I'm wondering if you agree to play it like that (i.e. infinite range, no LOS required, if within 18" and LOS then add on 3D6 hits?).

No, I was just pointing out that you could "miss" without a roll to hit being made.

wyomingfox wrote:No, that's is not what I am arguing at all LOL.

GW says that MH can miss and still affect the target with difficult/dangerous terrain.

So which is it? Can it miss by rolling to hit and failing? Or can it miss by being out of range / out of LOS effectively becoming an infinate range ignore LOS attack?

How can MH miss and still effect the target as per SW FAQ?

unless an attack states it does not need to roll to hit, or is a template weapon, it probably needs to roll to hit if its a psychic shooting attack, or has a weapon profile.

wyomingfox wrote:

merlin96 wrote:I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit.

Shooting attacks can also fail to hit because the target is outside of range or not in LOS. You declare your target and then measure for range and LOS. Failure to be within range or LOS is an automatic miss.

Not entirely true. Failure to be within range is an automatic miss. You check LOS before you check range. If you're out of LOS, you can choose a target that you can see.

I was thinking more in line with LOS limmits due to some wargear or night fighting rules, but on further thought yes you are correct.

puma713 wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

merlin96 wrote:I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit.

Shooting attacks can also fail to hit because the target is outside of range or not in LOS. You declare your target and then measure for range and LOS. Failure to be within range or LOS is an automatic miss.

Not entirely true. Failure to be within range is an automatic miss. You check LOS before you check range. If you're out of LOS, you can choose a target that you can see.

Which you do not do with Jaws. You pass the psychic test and you lay down a 24" line. Then you check that you have LoS to the first model that the 24" line touches. If you have LoS to the first model that the 24" line touches, that model becomes your target model. Now here is the exception to the general psychic shooting attack rules,

ANYTHING THE LINE TOUCHES TAKES AN INITIATIVE TEST!!!

You don't roll to hit something that the line is already touching. You don't roll to hit a target model that became a target model when it was initially touched by placement of the 24" line to make it a target model in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nos, you keep pointing out the target wording in the FAQ as the foundation of your argument that a to hit roll is required just as you were pointing out that "move" was in the description of shunting as the foundation that it was allowed during a scout move.

The codex rule is an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. The entire rule for Jaws does not follow the standard for a psychic shooting attack. You determine LoS after the power has already affected a model. You determine your target after the power has already affected a model. The power does not hit, it touches and passes through models.

Find me a rule in the book telling me how to roll to touch and I will roll, to touch rolls for Jaws every time.

Okay, let’s break down.

The main argument that I am trying to address is can a PSA ever be done without being rolled to hit?

PSA are treated as a regular shooting attack just like those of a weapon, the FAQ just restated the same thing. Has range, strength, ap, calls itself PSA, roll like it’s a gun. Paragraph one on pg. 50 even says that, “Exceptions to these rules are covered in their Codexes.” If condition one is met, go on to condition two. If condition two is not met, go back to condition one.

Everyone is arguing that no matter what, you have to role to hit because it is a PSA. The new FAQ still does not remove that “Exceptions to these rules are covered in their Codexes.”

The BA blood boil rule is a prime example. It states, “This is a psychic shooting attack that hits automatically an enemy unit within 12 inches.” The psyker casting the spell can even choose which model will suffer the wound if he rolls above a 5 and passes his psychic test! It calls itself a PSA, it can target a specific model!!! Do you also require this to roll to hit? If this is the case you adding an extra step where there isn’t one. There is no conflict here.

Template style psychic powers have a weapon profile, strength, AP value and calls itself a PSA. Do you play this like below?
1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit
3. Place template over models since roll to hit was good.
4. Roll to wound
5. Roll for any saves

Or in the case of MH
1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many shots you get
4. Roll the results of the 3D6 to see how many where hits
5. Roll to wound
6. Roll for any saves

This is not how it works. The FAQ was a clarification not a change in any way for this. These are all still PSA, but with their own rules as, “Exceptions to these rules are covered in their Codexes.”

JotWW
1. Take psychic test
2. Place a line 24 inches long, passing through the first model that is in LOS.
3. Any model that is on the line must now take a Initiative test

Exceptions.

Brother Ramses wrote:The power does not hit, it touches and passes through models.

Enough man. As if the semantic argument you are making wasn't weak enough arlready, it is factually wrong. Here it is again since you keep plugging your ears (eyes i guess)

From SW FAQ regarding JOTWW:
"[...] in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!"

The spell hits. You ignoring this fact brings nothing new to the debate. All you are doing is misrepresenting facts because you do not want to lose your edge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Merlin

Yes there are exceptions. JOTWW is not one of them. It is not a template weapon.

Perfectly clear to me Merlin.

If you look at almost all codexes, some if not all codexes have some exceptions to the general rules for psychic powers and in turn psychic shooting attacks. Just as an example for the SW codex,

Living Lightning: No exceptions.
MH: Exceptions: Rolling to hit.
Jaws: Exceptions: Rolling to hit, determining LoS, determining target, range.
Fury of the Wolf Spirits: Exceptions: firing two weapon profiles as one psychic shooting attack.

As you point out, the new FAQ does not override the first paragraph of page 50, Psykers yet it is like people saw the new FAQ and are just completely disregarding that specific paragraph and blanket covering ALL psychic shooting attacks with the FAQ when that is not the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Choboking wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The power does not hit, it touches and passes through models.

Enough man. As if the semantic argument you are making wasn't weak enough arlready, it is factually wrong. Here it is again since you keep plugging your ears (eyes i guess)

From SW FAQ regarding JOTWW:
"[...] in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!"

The spell hits. You ignoring this fact brings nothing new to the debate. All you are doing is misrepresenting facts because you do not want to lose your edge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Merlin

Yes there are exceptions. JOTWW is not one of them. It is not a template weapon.

The rule tells you how the power works. The FAQ clarifies how to determine LoS.

Your argument is based on a semantic, not mine. The power specifically tells you that anything the line TOUCHES takes an Initiative test. Not what the line hits, not what the rune priest hits, not what models are hit, what the line TOUCHES. Now rectify your argument that you propose that the hits that a target unit takes from MH, needing to hit rolls with the hits everyone on the way through for Jaws. You can't because in both instances, the hits/touches in BOTH instances are outright granted without requiring to hit rolls. Your stance would have people rolling to hit for every model the line touches after the target model on a model by model basis because the word "hits" is used.

Look at the BRB rule for vehicles getting a cover save need to be obscured. Now look at Shield of Sang and Storm Caller that outright grant a cover save to vehicles despite not fulfilling the obscured requirement. The same principle applies here that a codex psychic shooting attack has an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Brother Ramses wrote:

The rule tells you how the power works. The FAQ clarifies how to determine LoS.

Your argument is based on a semantic, not mine. The power specifically tells you that anything the line TOUCHES takes an Initiative test. Not what the line hits, not what the rune priest hits, not what models are hit, what the line TOUCHES. Now rectify your argument that you propose that the hits that a target unit takes from MH, needing to hit rolls with the hits everyone on the way through for Jaws. You can't because in both instances, the hits/touches in BOTH instances are outright granted without requiring to hit rolls. Your stance would have people rolling to hit for every model the line touches after the target model on a model by model basis because the word "hits" is used.

Look at the BRB rule for vehicles getting a cover save need to be obscured. Now look at Shield of Sang and Storm Caller that outright grant a cover save to vehicles despite not fulfilling the obscured requirement. The same principle applies here that a codex psychic shooting attack has an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs, which JOTWW is.

Your argument IS based on semantics. Sorry to inform you. I also used semantics to provide a counter example, and thus illustrate that arguing semantics is a weak tool, and unnecessary in this discussion. The facts are simple, and require no fuzzy word arguments to reach a conclusion.

The "to hit" roll isn't about the line touching the models. It is about the line landing where you want it to. Like it or not, JOTWW does not become treated as a template weapon just because a line is involved. It would have to explicitly state that, you cannot just assert that it is not a template weapon. As a result of this, it is treated like any other PSA. It must hit for its effect to take place.

If you miss, your line does not land, and does not touch the models. There is no touching for you argue about.

Again, the only reason I quoted the FAQ about hitting is to stop your ridiculous argument that somehow because touching is involved the attack becomes a template weapon and hits are a given. The attack is a PSA and unless explicitly stated does not gain any immunity to the PSA rules.


And just to preempt you, no the wording does not make JOTWW an exception. Nothing in that description declares it able to ignore its roll to hit.

merlin96 wrote:
Or in the case of MH
1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many shots you get
4. Roll the results of the 3D6 to see how many where hits
5. Roll to wound
6. Roll for any saves

No, he means...

1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many bits you get
4. Roll to wound
5. Roll for any saves

Which is what the recent BRB FAQ and the SW FAQ seems to imply...

ItsPug wrote:

merlin96 wrote:
Or in the case of MH
1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many shots you get
4. Roll the results of the 3D6 to see how many where hits
5. Roll to wound
6. Roll for any saves

No, he means...

1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many bits you get
4. Roll to wound
5. Roll for any saves

Which is what the recent BRB FAQ and the SW FAQ seems to imply...

The rule is very specific that once the psychic test is passed, the target unit takes 3d6 Str3 AP- hits. This codex psychic shooting attack is an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB, to include the new BRB faq.

Choboking wrote:No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs

No, the FAQ redundantly tells us that PSA follow the "to hit" rules already spelled out in the BRB. It does nothing to invalidate previous exceptions. The FAQ is redundant with pre-existing rules, it was not needed, and it changes nothing. If JOTWW, MH, ect. didn't need to roll to hit prior to this FAQ, then they don't need to now.

wyomingfox wrote:

Choboking wrote:No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs

No, the FAQ redundantly tells us that PSA follow the "to hit" rules already spelled out in the BRB. It does nothing to invalidate previous exceptions. The FAQ is redundant with pre-existing rules, it was not needed, and it changes nothing. If JOTWW, MH, ect. didn't need to roll to hit prior to this FAQ, then they don't need to now.

If that is your stance then they always needed to hit. How you played in the past is irrelevant. The clarifications show both skills to be PSAs and require to hit rolls.

Choboking wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

The rule tells you how the power works. The FAQ clarifies how to determine LoS.

Your argument is based on a semantic, not mine. The power specifically tells you that anything the line TOUCHES takes an Initiative test. Not what the line hits, not what the rune priest hits, not what models are hit, what the line TOUCHES. Now rectify your argument that you propose that the hits that a target unit takes from MH, needing to hit rolls with the hits everyone on the way through for Jaws. You can't because in both instances, the hits/touches in BOTH instances are outright granted without requiring to hit rolls. Your stance would have people rolling to hit for every model the line touches after the target model on a model by model basis because the word "hits" is used.

Look at the BRB rule for vehicles getting a cover save need to be obscured. Now look at Shield of Sang and Storm Caller that outright grant a cover save to vehicles despite not fulfilling the obscured requirement. The same principle applies here that a codex psychic shooting attack has an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs, which JOTWW is.

Your argument IS based on semantics. Sorry to inform you. I also used semantics to provide a counter example, and thus illustrate that arguing semantics is a weak tool, and unnecessary in this discussion. The facts are simple, and require no fuzzy word arguments to reach a conclusion.

The "to hit" roll isn't about the line touching the models. It is about the line landing where you want it to. Like it or not, JOTWW does not become treated as a template weapon just because a line is involved. It would have to explicitly state that, you cannot just assert that it is not a template weapon. As a result of this, it is treated like any other PSA. It must hit for its effect to take place.

If you miss, your line does not land, and does not touch the models. There is no touching for you argue about.

Again, the only reason I quoted the FAQ about hitting is to stop your ridiculous argument that somehow because touching is involved the attack becomes a template weapon and hits are a given. The attack is a PSA and unless explicitly stated does not gain any immunity to the PSA rules.


And just to preempt you, no the wording does not make JOTWW an exception. Nothing in that description declares it able to ignore its roll to hit.

Lets break this down;

The FAQ tells you that psychic shooting attacks need to hit rolls.

The BRB also tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. The new FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. If an exception to that general rule exists, it will be in the codexes.

Do we agree on this? If not, then there is nothing else to say because then you are just covering your ears and running around in circles screaming,

"PSA REQUIRE TO HIT ROLLS!!"

Over and over again.

Now, the rule for JAWS tells you to pass a psychic test and place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest. That is it. You are not directed to take any other action to determine where the line lands. You are given a condition that must be met (pass a psychic test) and action to take when the condition is met (place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest).

Not once have I ever mentioned or said that JAWS is a template weapon btw.

Now, how does Jaws affect a model? By touching it. That is right there in the rules as well. The line is placed as specifically directed by the rule (an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks), the first model it affects must be within LoS (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack), and any model it touches must take an initiative test (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack).

Now, other then trying time and time again to tell me that JAWS is a PSA so must roll to hit, now that I have shown you exactly how it is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, explain how it is NOT a codex exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Lets break this down;

The FAQ tells you that psychic shooting attacks need to hit rolls.

The BRB also tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. The new FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. If an exception to that general rule exists, it will be in the codexes.

Do we agree on this? If not, then there is nothing else to say because then you are just covering your ears and running around in circles screaming,

"PSA REQUIRE TO HIT ROLLS!!"

Over and over again.

Now, the rule for JAWS tells you to pass a psychic test and place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest. That is it. You are not directed to take any other action to determine where the line lands. You are given a condition that must be met (pass a psychic test) and action to take when the condition is met (place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest).

Not once have I ever mentioned or said that JAWS is a template weapon btw.

Now, how does Jaws affect a model? By touching it. That is right there in the rules as well. The line is placed as specifically directed by the rule (an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks), the first model it affects must be within LoS (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack), and any model it touches must take an initiative test (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack).

Now, other then trying time and time again to tell me that JAWS is a PSA so must roll to hit, now that I have shown you exactly how it is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, explain how it is NOT a codex exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack.

Also, FWIW, if you needed a roll to hit before you laid down the line, you'd have to choose a target, which would be going against Jaws' specific rules in how a target is chosen.

puma713 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Lets break this down;

The FAQ tells you that psychic shooting attacks need to hit rolls.

The BRB also tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. The new FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. If an exception to that general rule exists, it will be in the codexes.

Do we agree on this? If not, then there is nothing else to say because then you are just covering your ears and running around in circles screaming,

"PSA REQUIRE TO HIT ROLLS!!"

Over and over again.

Now, the rule for JAWS tells you to pass a psychic test and place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest. That is it. You are not directed to take any other action to determine where the line lands. You are given a condition that must be met (pass a psychic test) and action to take when the condition is met (place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest).

Not once have I ever mentioned or said that JAWS is a template weapon btw.

Now, how does Jaws affect a model? By touching it. That is right there in the rules as well. The line is placed as specifically directed by the rule (an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks), the first model it affects must be within LoS (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack), and any model it touches must take an initiative test (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack).

Now, other then trying time and time again to tell me that JAWS is a PSA so must roll to hit, now that I have shown you exactly how it is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, explain how it is NOT a codex exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack.

Also, FWIW, if you needed a roll to hit before you laid down the line, you'd have to choose a target, which would be going against Jaws' specific rules in how a target is chosen.

Exactly! Which on it's own is again another codex exception to the general rules on psychic shooting attacks.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Lets break this down;

The FAQ tells you that psychic shooting attacks need to hit rolls.

The BRB also tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. The new FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. If an exception to that general rule exists, it will be in the codexes.

Do we agree on this? If not, then there is nothing else to say because then you are just covering your ears and running around in circles screaming,

"PSA REQUIRE TO HIT ROLLS!!"

Over and over again.

I will ignore your childish taunt in the interest of getting somewhere. No that is not my stance, if you read what I post I have said several times that there are exceptions, JOTWW and MH just aren't two of them.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Now, the rule for JAWS tells you to pass a psychic test and place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest. That is it. You are not directed to take any other action to determine where the line lands. You are given a condition that must be met (pass a psychic test) and action to take when the condition is met (place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest).

Not once have I ever mentioned or said that JAWS is a template weapon btw.

Merlin has compared it to a template weapon, and you have backed him up. If you don't think it is a template weapon, stop making statements that indicate that. Even if you do not explicitly state it, comparing it to a flamer, or assuming it auto hits, is treating it as a template.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Now, how does Jaws affect a model? By touching it. That is right there in the rules as well. The line is placed as specifically directed by the rule (an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks), the first model it affects must be within LoS (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack), and any model it touches must take an initiative test (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack).

This is correct, AFTER the attack lands on a to hit roll. Because this is a PSA (self described) the "to hit" step does not need to be stated. It is implied by the BRB and would require a specific clause to override that.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Now, other then trying time and time again to tell me that JAWS is a PSA so must roll to hit, now that I have shown you exactly how it is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, explain how it is NOT a codex exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack.

You have not shown that it is an exception. You have simply described how it works and left out a step that you don't like.

Asking me to prove it is NOT an exception is futile. Proving a negative is not what is required here. You have failed to prove it is an exception.

The only thing I can see that would implicitly make it auto hit is the argument that you think it is a template weapon, but you have already conceded that you don't think that, right?

Hahahahahaha!

I just listed every codex exception to the general rule including the additional one about targeting!

What are you rolling to hit? To place the line? The rule already tells you how to place the line. That is the codex exception to the general rule. As was pointed out, how are you rolling to hit aka place the line, without a target?

You: "Ok, I am rolling to hit."

Opponent: "Hit what?"

I agreed with Merlin on the points he made regarding codex exceptions to the rule, but missed that on one part he was still trying to include Jaws as a template weapon. Honest mistake of which I do not agree with at all.

And the very rule tells you that what the line touches is affected, that what the lines touches takes an initiative test. That is the magical exception that you seem to gloss over every time as to why you do not roll to hit.

I have included every step that the rules compel you to complete the action per the BRB and the codex. You refuse to acknowledge that a codex exception to rolling to hit exists in the JAWS and MH rule and arbitrarily insert a to hit roll wherever it pleases you.

If a to hit roll was required of MH and JAWS to work, then how did they ever work before this FAQ came out? Oh yea, because they are codex exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. They have their own set of rules that allow them to work outside the general parameters of psychic shooting attacks whereas a rule like Living Lightning, which follows all the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, would NOT work if you did not roll to hit per the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Page 50, Pskers and this above last paragraph are brilliant.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter.

It does not say it should scatter either. It is not a "blast weapon". And the only target mentioned is Rune Priest himself.

DarknessEternal wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

You don't roll twice to hit with a weapon, do you? If MH requires "to hit" roll, then it means that you roll to hit with more hits. You only make to hit test ONCE, and since MH causes automatic hits, the "to hit" test is passed, you don't roll to hit, QED.

Ok BR, I don't know if you have comprehension issues or are just very good at reading what you want to read. Play it how you want, take it to a tourney, and let the TO sort you out. Someone already compared convincing you to filling a barrel with holes in it with water... I should have listened.

At the end of they day, I don't agree that you have proven any exception, and I have given my reasons. Both spells require a "to hit" roll until proven otherwise. That hit is resolved before the spell can touch it's target, and thus the effects do not exempt the spell from having to hit.

And lastly, on a personal note, grow up. Accusing me of adding rolls wherever I see fit? You are starting to sound like Nos on the scout shunt argument, and I should think you wouldn't want that. I clearly have a reason, and have explained it, even if you disagree with it. Stop the Ad Hominem and Strawman kiddies, address the issues presented.

Choboking wrote:
At the end of they day, I don't agree that you have proven any exception, and I have given my reasons. Both spells require a "to hit" roll until proven otherwise.

We just did.

I'm sorry, do you think putting QED at the end of a sentence means you've proven it? I'm going now, this is quite frustrating.

Choboking wrote:I'm sorry, do you think putting QED at the end of a sentence means you've proven it? I'm going now, this is quite frustrating.

No, I think me proving the case proves it.

Okay we are making some progress.

We have now established that there are exceptions.

Now I did, and have made references to a template for a very specific reason. Is there any weapon or weapon type that does not require you to roll to hit, and thus effects all models that fall under the template were it is placed? There is, it is a flamer style template. This is an exception to the roll to hit that is customary for shooting attacks. Now, can anyone tell me of any weapon or weapon type that will affect ALL models that fall under a specific distance? I can think of none, but there may be some (and I doubt that they require you to roll to hit). A shooting attack does one of two things, A: It hits or misses dependent on the dice roll. B: all models under the template are hit. That is why I have been using template as an example. You do not roll to hit then place the template/marker/line to then see who it covers. The use of the set distance on psychic powers like this, that affect all models that pass over, through, or hit by, is an exception to the rules of shooting.

Do these rules say, "If the target model is hit, continue on with the 24 inch line...."? No, because that is not how the rules state it will work.

Also on another note, if a unit is shooting another unit with bolters, do you roll to see if you hit the unit, then roll again to see how many shots hit the unit? This is how you are interpreting this. If the FAQ had an entry that said all shooting attacks need to roll to hit, does that mean you need to roll to hit twice? No, it is stating the same thing. That is how some of you are arguing this must roll to hit issue.

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter.

It does not say it should scatter either. It is not a "blast weapon". And the only target mentioned is Rune Priest himself.

It doesn't need to say it scatters. It needs to say that it DOES NOT scatter. Any shooting attack using either blast marker scatters.

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

You don't roll twice to hit with a weapon, do you? If MH requires "to hit" roll, then it means that you roll to hit with more hits. You only make to hit test ONCE, and since MH causes automatic hits, the "to hit" test is passed, you don't roll to hit, QED.

That's just chaotic gibberish. Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll as a psychic shooting attack. If it hits, it generates some effects. The effects are listed in the power.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter.

It does not say it should scatter either. It is not a "blast weapon". And the only target mentioned is Rune Priest himself.

It doesn't need to say it scatters. It needs to say that it DOES NOT scatter. Any shooting attack using either blast marker scatters.

Sez where?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

You don't roll twice to hit with a weapon, do you? If MH requires "to hit" roll, then it means that you roll to hit with more hits. You only make to hit test ONCE, and since MH causes automatic hits, the "to hit" test is passed, you don't roll to hit, QED.

That's just chaotic gibberish. Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll as a psychic shooting attack.

By same logic, Thunderclap also requires "to hit" roll. Even though it makes absolutely no sense.

Once again: if you hit, you hit. You get automatic hits, you don't need to roll to hit.

It doesn't get any more simpler, really.

I would love for GW to rule that Jaws of the World Wolf scatters when it misses. Not that is a awesome result, lol.

Looks like GW will have to FAQ their FAQed up FAQ.

Darkness, you are falling into the same tunnel vision trap that many are doing with the new FAQ, however with the large blast marker.

Exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are in the codexes.

So the general rule for large blast markers are they scatter, however the codex rule is that it is placed so it is touching the rune priest. That is the codex exception to the general rule.

While I can see both sides of the argument here, I think the strongest argument against JoTWW needing to hit is the Eldar Vibrocannon, which works almost exactly the same way as JOTWW. You don't pick a target, you draw a line from the individual firing, but you do need to roll to hit.

"Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack."

That's a yes for JotWW


"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes."

JotWW is a PSA, so still a yes....

Seriously like abunch of parrots around here with the new FAQ despite the clear cut rule of exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks being in the codexes. Going to try this one last time showing examples of psychic shooting attacks that follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks and those that are codex exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Per the BRB, the Shooting Sequence is as follows:

1. Check line of sight & pick a target.
2. Check range.
3. Roll to hit.
4. Roll to wound.
5. Take Saving throws.
6. Remove casualties.

Now psychic shooting attacks tell us that it counts as firing a ranged weapon so it will follow the above sequence unless their is an exception to those rules in the codex.

Living Lightning:

1. No exception. You check LoS and pick a target.
2. No exception. Range is checked: unlimited.
3. No exception. You roll to hit as many shots as determined by the a d6.
4. No exception. You roll to wound for each shot that hit.
5. No exception. For each wound suffered a save can be taken if allowed.
6. No exception. Remove casualties for any failed saves.

Pretty straight forward for a psychic shooting attack that follows the general rules for a psychic shooting attack. It is a psychic shooting attack, that does not have any codex exceptions for rolling to hit, so therefore per the new BRB faq, you roll to hit. Onto something just a tiny bit different.

Murderous Hurricane

1. No exception.
2. No exception.
3. Exception! Target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits.
4. No exception.
5. No exception.
6. No exception.

So we see that when it comes to step 3, MH has a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. Onto something more complex.

Thunderclap

1. Exception! Place the large blast template so it touching the rune priest.
2. No exception.
3. Exception! Any enemy model touched by the marker takes a Str 3 hit with an AP of 5.
4. No exception.
5. No exception.
6. No exception.

Thunderclap has exceptions in step 1 and 3. Now for one that is really complex.

Jaws of the World Wolf

1. Exception! LoS and target is determined by which is the first model the power will affect after placing a 24" line along the board.
2. Exception! Range is based upon the determination of which model will be first affected after placing the 24" line along the table and thus is the target model.
3. Exception! Specific unit types touched by the placement of the 24" line must take an Initiative test.
4. Exception! No wounds are caused.
5. Exception! No wounds are caused thus there are no wounds to save against.
6. Exception! No unsaved wounds are created by not taking any wounds and failing saves. Instead models are removed fromp play.

JotWW is almost completely excluded from the general rules for psychic shooting attacks due to codex exceptions.

These are the merits of my argument, using the BRB, the codex, and the FAQ as they are written. If you want to argue yiur point come with more then just reciting the new FAQ over and over. The basis of my argument dispells that tactic right away since it is based on the first paragraph of page 50, Psykers.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter.

It does not say it should scatter either. It is not a "blast weapon". And the only target mentioned is Rune Priest himself.

It doesn't need to say it scatters. It needs to say that it DOES NOT scatter. Any shooting attack using either blast marker scatters.

Can you please find the page in the BRB that says that? All I see is where it says blast weapons scatter (as far as I know, there are no PSAs with the Blast rule).

I read it as ChrisCP states.

I don't have a beef with JotWW needing a to-hit roll.

My issue (sorry if someone already addressed this) is how many to hit rolls do you make? If the line runs through 8 models, is it 8 rolls? What about the SW FAQ that says the first model for all intents and purposes is the target. Does that mean all or nothing? If I miss the target, no one is affected?

Target model, one roll to hit, you must roll to hit with a PSA unless one is told one doesn't have to/automatic hit.

An example of a PSA which does not require a roll to hit is in the ork 'Dex - Zzap pg 37 - it says "Choose an enemy unit within LoS. If in range the target unit is automatically hit...".

The way I see it, the direction is determined, then the first model along that line is the target, and, I guess, you roll to hit against that one model...everyone else along the line does not need a to-hit roll, as the only "target" is the first model.

I just don't think that makes much sense. It seems like GW was trying to answer a question no one was asking.

ChrisCP wrote:

Target model, one roll to hit, you must roll to hit with a PSA unless one is told one doesn't have to/automatic hit.

An example of a PSA which does not require a roll to hit is in the ork 'Dex - Zzap pg 37 - it says "Choose an enemy unit within LoS. If in range the target unit is automatically hit...".

So who do I roll to hit against with Nurgle's Rot?

I am told that everyone in 6" takes a Strength 3 hit. If there are 30 orks within 6", I roll 30 times? If that -is- the case, then I'm not following the power's rule when it says everyone within 6" takes a Str. 3 hit. Instead, only some of the models within 6" take a Str. 3 hit.

Which is it? It's either everyone, or some, but it's not both. And you're only told one of the two.

Edit: And if it's only some, please point me to the rules that tell me to ignore what the Nurgle's Rot power tells me to do in lieu of FAQ interpretation. Not only that, but also, if I have 30 'targets' (since I have to roll to hit, and all) who am I allowed to assault? If my 'Rot' hits 3 units, I can assault any of the 3? How do I choose a target when the power doesn't target anyone? Since it is a PSA, it needs a target. But it doesn't target. It has 'targets', but you don't choose them.

If you are told that everyone (I am guesing enemy models) in 6" takes a strength 3 hit then you are exempted from the rules normally requiring you to roll to hit. If you tried to roll to hit then you would not be following the rules laid out by the codex.

Stealth edit!!

Was going to address snping models with Jaws does not mean that you declare a target/slash check range, and thus need to roll a hit. It only means that my 24" line, I can place it so that the first model in LoS affected is an IC/Mek/special weapon.

It only reinforces my point that Jaws is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks because the general rules for psychic shooting attacks do not let you normally snipe a model out of a unit.

After reading FAQ's and SW codex, it seems to me very clear that at the moment JotWW requires a single to hit roll then draw your line through the target.

tgf wrote:After reading FAQ's and SW codex, it seems to me very clear that at the moment JotWW requires a single to hit roll then draw your line through the target.

Too bad you didn't read the BRB as part of your investigation because you will see that I does not.

puma713 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Target model, one roll to hit, you must roll to hit with a PSA unless one is told one doesn't have to/automatic hit.

An example of a PSA which does not require a roll to hit is in the ork 'Dex - Zzap pg 37 - it says "Choose an enemy unit within LoS. If in range the target unit is automatically hit...".

So who do I roll to hit against with Nurgle's Rot?

I am told that everyone in 6" takes a Strength 3 hit. If there are 30 orks within 6", I roll 30 times? If that -is- the case, then I'm not following the power's rule when it says everyone within 6" takes a Str. 3 hit. Instead, only some of the models within 6" take a Str. 3 hit.

Which is it? It's either everyone, or some, but it's not both. And you're only told one of the two.

Edit: And if it's only some, please point me to the rules that tell me to ignore what the Nurgle's Rot power tells me to do in lieu of FAQ interpretation. Not only that, but also, if I have 30 'targets' (since I have to roll to hit, and all) who am I allowed to assault? If my 'Rot' hits 3 units, I can assault any of the 3? How do I choose a target when the power doesn't target anyone? Since it is a PSA, it needs a target. But it doesn't target. It has 'targets', but you don't choose them.

Nurgles' wording pretty please =) !!!

Brother Ramses wrote:

tgf wrote:After reading FAQ's and SW codex, it seems to me very clear that at the moment JotWW requires a single to hit roll then draw your line through the target.

Too bad you didn't read the BRB as part of your investigation because you will see that I does not.

I believe you are just reading it the way you want it to read. Should I strive to post constructively? <affirmative --Janthkin>

ChrisCP wrote:

puma713 wrote:

*snip*

Nurgles' wording pretty please =) !!!

A psyker may use this power in the Shooting Phase instead of using another ranged weapon. The psyker may be in close combat at the time, as may the targets. If the psychic test is successful, all enemy models within 6" of the psyker suffer a Strength 3 hit with AP -.

Yep lots of rolling to hit. I was thinking if it targeted a unit, then one could roll to hit the unit and then each guy <6" take their hit.

S'all good thou, this clarification, affects everyone.

(and your Cutthroat is cool)

Choboking wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Choboking wrote:No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs

No, the FAQ redundantly tells us that PSA follow the "to hit" rules already spelled out in the BRB. It does nothing to invalidate previous exceptions. The FAQ is redundant with pre-existing rules, it was not needed, and it changes nothing. If JOTWW, MH, ect. didn't need to roll to hit prior to this FAQ, then they don't need to now.

If that is your stance then they always needed to hit. How you played in the past is irrelevant. The clarifications show both skills to be PSAs and require to hit rolls.

That is the stance as laid out by both the BRB, independant of the FAQ, and the FAQ itself... and no, they never needed to hit because the codex provided specific exceptions in its written rules that states how hits are determined, overriding the BRB then and still overriding the FAQ (which simply restates the BRB) now.

ChrisCP wrote:
(and your Cutthroat is cool)

Thanks. It was always one of my favorite pictures from Magic, when I played, ages ago. I thought the Dauthi concept was very cool. Sort of like the Losambra from Vampire.

ChrisCP wrote:Yep lots of rolling to hit. I was thinking if it targeted a unit, then one could roll to hit the unit and then each guy <6" take their hit.

S'all good thou, this clarification, affects everyone.

So who can I assault and why? I have to have a target to use a PSA. But Nurgle's Rot doesn't target anyone. So who am I shooting with my psychic shooting attack? How am I allowed to break the rules for shooting by targeting multiple units or not choosing a target at all? If my Sorceror with Nurgle's Rot is attached to a unit, who is the unit allowed to shoot? Anyone? Everyone?

Also, if there are models within 6" that did not take a Str. 3 hit, then I haven't followed the rules for Nurgle's Rot.

Edit: By forcing Nurgle's Rot to roll to hit, the FAQ is actually forcing the Chaos player to break more rules than the one that didn't cause him have to hit in the first place. If I didn't have to roll to hit (which I don't believe I do. I think when something says you suffer a hit, you suffer a hit.), then there are no rules broken, save for rolling to hit per the FAQ. If I -do- have to roll to hit, I break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and the rules for Nurgle's Rot, specifically. Not to mention the Assault rules that may crop up in the next phase.

Ok , if the rules for the PSA didnt change can anybody tell me why we didnt roll to hit with JAWS in the first place if it actually needed it? And also if JAWS actually misses its target model (first one in the line) I would say per RAW that the other models in the line are still affected as they are obviusly still autohit, even though the main target was missed the line still exist and so does the power effects and so the other moddels are now taking I test for being auto hit even though it missed, because they just happen to get hit on the way through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for MH it cant get much clearer than that, it says takes 3d6 hits, "not if it hits it takes 3d6 hits". It's a clear statement that does not need a roll to hit, because it is clearly ignoring the ability to hit and simply deinfing how much hits the unit takes iif it is cast, and if the target unit is with in range.
Side note- even if the attack misses the target on the off chance you have to roll for it the effect will still come into play because missing the unit does not stop the power from using its special abilities and in this case that would be the whole thing the 3d6 within 18 inches and the murderous hurricane if the target unit meets all the criteria for the effect even after being missed by the PSA.

Wow...this is just silly

@Brother Ramses.... you have the right of it. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink it. If someone honestly thinks a roll to hit is necessary for JotWW then let them live in ignorance. This is dakkadrama at its finest.

Grey elder wrote:
And for MH it cant get much clearer than that, it says takes 3d6 hits, "not if it hits it takes 3d6 hits". It's a clear statement that does not need a roll to hit,

The Space Wolf FAQ says it can miss. How can it miss if it doesn't need to hit?

Bikeninja wrote:Wow...this is just silly

@Brother Ramses.... you have the right of it. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink it. If someone honestly thinks a roll to hit is necessary for JotWW then let them live in ignorance. This is dakkadrama at its finest.

But what if that ignorance causes us be harmed, as for the horse you can insert a tube into his stomach and focrefeed his rump.
Honestly seeing as all PSA needed a roll to hit in the first place since they were all range weapons I do know why people went omg you have to roll now, its because of ignorance and the hope that it will bring down the shining hope that is all PSA that kick Horse Rump.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grey elder wrote:
And for MH it cant get much clearer than that, it says takes 3d6 hits, "not if it hits it takes 3d6 hits". It's a clear statement that does not need a roll to hit,

The Space Wolf FAQ says it can miss. How can it miss if it doesn't need to hit?

Maybe if its an auto miss in which they are out of range but seeing as the attack doesnt have a specified range it can never truly miss per RAW it only has rules to be followed like if the unit is within the 18 inch limit. But other wise that attack has no range limit given to it just a range of effect of which you can choose your target. Other wise I can choose a traget across the board and Auto miss and now cause it Dangerous terrain tests.


And where specifically does it say it can miss.?
Cause the only way it can miss is if you interpret the 18Inch selection effect as a rangefor shooting then it can auto miss from being out of range, but if it was in range it would auto-hit the unit within 18 inches.

Grey elder wrote:

Bikeninja wrote:Wow...this is just silly

@Brother Ramses.... you have the right of it. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink it. If someone honestly thinks a roll to hit is necessary for JotWW then let them live in ignorance. This is dakkadrama at its finest.

But what if that ignorance causes us be harmed, as for the horse you can insert a tube into his stomach and focrefeed his rump.
Honestly seeing as all PSA needed a roll to hit in the first place since they were all range weapons I do know why people went omg you have to roll now, its because of ignorance and the hope that it will bring down the shining hope that is all PSA that kick Horse Rump.

Grey, have you even read the first paragraph of page 50 or do all you know how to do is keep trumpeting;

"PSA need to roll to hit!"

PSA need to roll to hit is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB. The BRB tells you that you that you can completely ignore that rule, as well as others, if the codex tells you something different.

The SW codex tells you different. You ignore, "PSA need to roll to hit", and instead follow the rules in the SW codex.

puma713 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
(and your Cutthroat is cool)

Thanks. It was always one of my favorite pictures from Magic, when I played, ages ago. I thought the Dauthi concept was very cool. Sort of like the Losambra from Vampire.

ChrisCP wrote:Yep lots of rolling to hit. I was thinking if it targeted a unit, then one could roll to hit the unit and then each guy <6" take their hit.

S'all good thou, this clarification, affects everyone.

So who can I assault and why? I have to have a target to use a PSA. But Nurgle's Rot doesn't target anyone. So who am I shooting with my psychic shooting attack? How am I allowed to break the rules for shooting by targeting multiple units or not choosing a target at all? If my Sorceror with Nurgle's Rot is attached to a unit, who is the unit allowed to shoot? Anyone? Everyone?

Also, if there are models within 6" that did not take a Str. 3 hit, then I haven't followed the rules for Nurgle's Rot.

Edit: By forcing Nurgle's Rot to roll to hit, the FAQ is actually forcing the Chaos player to break more rules than the one that didn't cause him have to hit in the first place. If I didn't have to roll to hit (which I don't believe I do. I think when something says you suffer a hit, you suffer a hit.), then there are no rules broken, save for rolling to hit per the FAQ. If I -do- have to roll to hit, I break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and the rules for Nurgle's Rot, specifically. Not to mention the Assault rules that may crop up in the next phase.

See, I think that's what the FAQ is going for.
"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon. So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack." Pg 50

Just follow 'The Shooting Sequence' THE SHOOTING SEQUENCE
1 Check line of sight & pick a target.
2 Check range.
3 Roll to hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired.
4 Roll to wound.
5 Take saving throws.
6 Remove casualties.

............
I was wrong, it'll only need one roll to hit right? The unit it targets, and naturally by following the shooting/assault rules this is the unit one must shoot/assault.
Other units may be hit, just like blasts.

Can anyone tell me why JAWS needs to roll now, if it actaully needed to roll in the first place why did no one catch this?

ChrisCP wrote:
I was wrong, it'll only need one roll to hit right? The unit it targets, and naturally by following the shooting/assault rules this is the unit one must shoot/assault.
Other units may be hit, just like blasts.

I would almost agree with you, if there was a unit to target.

You must target a unit however. If you do not you can't actually fire a weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's no direct instruction to as it's step one of the firing process.

Ok it says for JAWS the RP must have line for sight to the first model and that model is treated like the target model for the power so if the power misses the line no longer effects him right making him no longer the first model effected by the line and hence making the roll to hit void right? But for him to be effected by the line does he not first have to take the I test because by your thinking he is not affected by the power unit he is hit, right?

If you don't hit your target you miss.

ChrisCP wrote:If you don't hit your target you miss.

But your evading my point for the rune oreist to first designate a target hence roll the model that is first underneath the line must be effected AKA being forced to take an I test. Making the need to roll redundant but still needed. Sure you miss but the model was still effected and might actually be removed.

puma713 wrote:
Edit: By forcing Nurgle's Rot to roll to hit, the FAQ is actually forcing the Chaos player to break more rules than the one that didn't cause him have to hit in the first place. If I didn't have to roll to hit (which I don't believe I do. I think when something says you suffer a hit, you suffer a hit.), then there are no rules broken, save for rolling to hit per the FAQ. If I -do- have to roll to hit, I break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and the rules for Nurgle's Rot, specifically. Not to mention the Assault rules that may crop up in the next phase.

You don't roll to hit. You can assault anyone you want, even units which were not effected in any way by Nurgle's rot.

Why? Because Nurgle's rot, thanks to new genius FAQ ruling, is NOT a Psychic shooting attack.

I say since some are arguing that we have to roll to hit the first model, lets just make sure that the model "we really want to get" is the second or third one in the conga-line. That we if we miss, we are still going to get all the rest since the line will still pass on through for the full 24 inches.

Someone please show me where it says that the line that is JotWW goes away or is nullified if it misses the first target. Because I can't find it. It can't miss as long as you passed your psychic test, you have LOS, and he is in range. The FAQ only states that the first model "– in effect he is treated as the target model." All that means is that the line goes through him, and that is it, the model is merely the reference point for which that the power goes, that it it.

If a regular shooting attack weapon called for the player to draw a line the duration of the weapons range and count all models under the said line as affected by the weapon, would that constitute a specific exception to the rules of shooting attacks? I would call that a pretty big exception. How if JotWW not an exception, practically everything about the power is an exception, but it is still a PSA.

Please give step by step examples of how powers do or do not have not have an exception. Not the "it's a PSA must roll to hit," as your only argument. Just because it calls itself a psychic shooting attack, that does not stop the process of evaluating the rest of the psychic power rules. Does it call itself a PSA, does it have a weapon style profile, does the psychic power detail any exceptions to the rules (rules for shooting attacks). THIS MUST BE ASKED. Brother Ramses actually took the time to type down every step and the check that goes along with it, and yet some are saying that he is reading into it. How is what he said reading into anything? The rules in the BRB already stated what Psychic Shooting Attacks where, it also said how to take dangerous terrain test. Yet some people still didn't get it, so the FAQ restated the same thing in a different order to help the others see the light. This is the same thing here. We already knew that JotWW and many other Psychic powers that happen during the shooting phase are indeed Psychic Shooting Attacks, nothing has changed, there is still the exception rule. The FAQ did not redact that part of PSA, did it? Nope, nothing in the Errata or Amendments that remove that.

This is not an abstract argument. Has anyone done computer programming? Everything is done in steps. If this happens, then do this or do that. Everyone is so hung up on the first part they are refusing to look any further.

Also seeing as Lash of Submission has the same wording as MH for picking a unit( pick a unit within X range) and seeing as lash isnt seen as PSA MH now has no specified range in terms of creating a stat line and can now never ever miss hence it deals out auto hits because of the wording .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Edit: By forcing Nurgle's Rot to roll to hit, the FAQ is actually forcing the Chaos player to break more rules than the one that didn't cause him have to hit in the first place. If I didn't have to roll to hit (which I don't believe I do. I think when something says you suffer a hit, you suffer a hit.), then there are no rules broken, save for rolling to hit per the FAQ. If I -do- have to roll to hit, I break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and the rules for Nurgle's Rot, specifically. Not to mention the Assault rules that may crop up in the next phase.

You don't roll to hit. You can assault anyone you want, even units which were not effected in any way by Nurgle's rot.

Why? Because Nurgle's rot, thanks to new genius FAQ ruling, is NOT a Psychic shooting attack.

has Ap stat hence is a PSA.

Grey elder wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Why? Because Nurgle's rot, thanks to new genius FAQ ruling, is NOT a Psychic shooting attack.

has Ap stat hence is a PSA.

But it has no range, it has a radius.

That's a range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's a range.

ChrisCP wrote:That's a range.

No, it's not. Range is between shooter and the target. NR has no targets, it merely has a radius within which enemies are affected, if there are any.

That's it's range.

A librarian and a rune priest other psychic powers that have a range that are not carried out in the shooting phase. It has a range as detailed in the FAQ as to what is a PSA. By your use of the PSA definition, these too are a PSA. So now any psychic power that has a range is a PSA and must pass psychic test and roll to hit. After all it does have a range.

Eldritch storm is a PSA using the large blast.

BR - the rules for the SW power tell you to place the blast over the Rune Priest. This does NOT override the step 3 replacement rules for rolling to hit (roll for scatter), it just limits where you can place the blast marker. So you still scatter.

Not that you'll listen. Bucket full of holes indeed.

ChrisCP wrote:That's it's range.

Says where?

And really, wouldn't it make more sense to roll for scatter? I mean, it doesn't make much sense either, but more than rolling for hit...against what? Where? Why?

Honestly, there is simply no way to win in this argument:

-Either Nurgle's Rot is a PSA which requires "To hit" roll, which makes no sense whatsoever.

-Or it is not a PSA, in which case it does not require "To hit" roll, but which opens a whole new case which makes less sense than the plot of Phantom Menace.

Only way which even remotely makes sense is to continue playing it like you did before.

It's the range of the weapon - same as the range of a template is "template"

WHy would you scatter a non-blast weapon?

For the same reason assaults should have a scatter distance:

It makes the game more challenging!

nosferatu1001 wrote:It's the range of the weapon - same as the range of a template is "template"

WHy would you scatter a non-blast weapon?

Why would you roll for a hit with an area weapon?

To see if your power has any effect?

Because the rules tell you that, unless you have an exception, ALL PSAs have to roll to hit?

And the rules dont list an exception, so you still do it.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Grey elder wrote:

Bikeninja wrote:Wow...this is just silly

@Brother Ramses.... you have the right of it. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink it. If someone honestly thinks a roll to hit is necessary for JotWW then let them live in ignorance. This is dakkadrama at its finest.

But what if that ignorance causes us be harmed, as for the horse you can insert a tube into his stomach and focrefeed his rump.
Honestly seeing as all PSA needed a roll to hit in the first place since they were all range weapons I do know why people went omg you have to roll now, its because of ignorance and the hope that it will bring down the shining hope that is all PSA that kick Horse Rump.

Grey, have you even read the first paragraph of page 50 or do all you know how to do is keep trumpeting;

"PSA need to roll to hit!"

PSA need to roll to hit is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB. The BRB tells you that you that you can completely ignore that rule, as well as others, if the codex tells you something different.

The SW codex tells you different. You ignore, "PSA need to roll to hit", and instead follow the rules in the SW codex.

No the FAQ is stating that all PSA must roll to hit no excepetions. If you use destructor, JOTW, Blood Lance now you must roll to hit

Ok guys, Hello to everyone.

I am a space wolf player and a competitive one, so you know who's side im with. I dont want to blabber about whos right as i am not so sure myself. I can see the argument from both sides.

Please let me break down some things and everyone think about them very well. We cant find the correct answer to this so we have to work it out and see how things make sense.

First thing. Anyone who is arguing should have a solid case. You shouldn't use the FAQ's questions as solid cases to argue because the answer is important not the question and this is why im saying this


From the wolves FAQ about Murderous hurricane. Because someone made the question about the power needed to hit or wound its target, we cant assume safely that it actually needs rolls to hit. a question should not justify an argument. Murderous hurricane inflicts hits.


About templates and blasts on PSA's.

the BRB has rules for specific weapon types.

Blasts weapons

template weapons.

these rules reffer to these weapons of the according types. Not for psychic shooting attacks that use for conveniency purposes only, the blast or the template marker. thunderclap uses the blast marker, but it is not a "blast weapon" nowhere states that it is a blast weapon. How can it use the blast weapon rules? If it had a profile which stated it as heavy 1 blast for example it would make sense to say it can scatter. But it only uses the blast marker . it is another thing. same goes for any case of the use of a template weapon without the power having a profile which states " template / blast "


As for the major strong case everyone uses. I aknowledge what the point is.

All PSA's need to roll to hit

Make a roll to hit for every psychic shooting attack

murderous hurricane does hits? Ok , but does the power itself hits its target? One roll to hit before anything resolves

Jaws of the world wolf doesnt cause hits? Ok but does the line lands where you intended? One roll to hit before you draw the line.

makes sense.

I would counter argue on this. If all PSA's need a roll to hit before they resolve, does this mean that even Living Lightning needs a roll to hit before anything resolves?

Psychic test taken, roll to hit for the power
roll D6, roll for hits, and finaly roll for wounds. Does this make sense?

In my opinion, the argument that every Psa needs one roll to hit though still an argument, it is a weak one because it will make the game look silly and will create weird situations that everyone could clearly see" that wasnt how this was intended to work"

Do you guys believe that GW effectively intended to add a second " test" after the psychic test
to the whole psycher engine of the game?

Maybe..

I dont think so.

In my opinion psychic powers should work the way the codexes describe them to work.

Some powers state that they hit automatically their target and other extend a line to hit their taget.

Someone thought something unknown to us and made an unknown question which in turn created a need for games workshop to publish this question

Do PSA's need a roll to hit?

Yes.

......... and ruined everyones day.

Of course in Jaws and blood lance doesnt specify that the power automatically hits, because it states that they work in another way than the way you normaly shoot at things.

and yes they are PSA .

Some of us here just want to see powers beeing nerfed because we feel that they are too strong . The game has lots of " too strong" things in every codex.

We should try and find ways to win nonetheless, no matter the odds and see the fun in that instead of trying to find cheesy things and windows in GW's writing, and mistakes to make arguments on and word arguments and break each others balls . I expect a new FAQ very briefly, but we should try to understand a little more ourselves without needing everything to be spelled for us so that we can understand the game.....

Sorry about the very long post.

Wherever the argument ends, I will comply and play the game in every way my opponents feel is just . But if I have to roll to hit for jaws, I expect a roll to hit for everything after that .

Empath wrote:No the FAQ is stating that all PSA must roll to hit no excepetions. If you use destructor, JOTW, Blood Lance now you must roll to hit

That's not what it says. Did you read it?

Q: "Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit?"
A: "Yes"

Nowhere does it say 'no exceptions'. Nowhere does it say 'all psychic shooting attacks'.

-If it has a profile, you use that profile to determine how the weapon is fired (e.g. R: 18", Assault 1 or R: Template, Assault 1 or R: 18", Assault 1, Large Blast)
-If it doesn't have a profile, do what the power says regarding targeting (e.g. "pick one enemy model", or "draw a line")
-If it has a profile but has special rules regarding targeting, follow that instead of using the standard profile for shooting attacks

Go back and re-read the quote that I posted from Yakface. FAQs are not Errata. They are 'soft' answers to specific questions that clarify how the game works. They don't introduce sweeping changes to the game or change the way that psychic powers have worked for 3 editions (e.g. Mind War).

There is a technique called 'reductio ad absurdum' that allows one to invalidate an argument by showing that the argument comes to ridiculous or absurd conclusions.

Argument: All PSAs need to roll to hit. No exceptions.
Conclusion: Template weapons need to roll to hit.
Evaluation: This is absurd. Template weapons have never needed to roll to hit.

Argument: All PSAs need to roll to hit, unless they have a special way of targeting, like Blast or Template.
Conclusion: Blast and Template weapons don't need to roll to hit, but every other PSA does.
Evaluation: Seems okay at first, but see the next argument.

Argument: Blast and Template are the only special ways of targeting.
Conclusion: Other special ways of targeting, such as 'draw a line' or 'pick a model' are not considered special ways of targeting.
Evaluation: This is absurd. They are special ways of targeting by definition.

Argument: All PSAs need to roll to hit, unless they have a special way of targeting, of which there are many.
Conclusion: Most PSAs need to roll to hit, but any PSA that notes how it is targeted (e.g. 'draw a line', 'pick a model') follows those rules instead.
Evaluation: Seems okay.

--

A large proportion of the counter-argument to the above comes from a single psychic power: Murderous Hurricane. Some people argue that it automatically hits because it says 'the affected unit takes X hits', while other people argue that it must roll to hit because it says 'is a psychic shooting attack' and the SW FAQ implies that it can miss.

- Even if the power automatically hits, it can still miss by being out of range. The SW FAQ does not state or imply that it must be due to rolling a failed to-hit roll.
- At the time that the codex was written, the only special rules for psychic shooting attacks were that they are fired in place of a ranged weapon during the shooting phase.
- There are plenty of other psychic shooting attacks that have always been treated to automatically hit (i.e. a precedence). For example, Mind War.
- The wording of the power says 'affected unit', not 'hit unit', or 'if the power hits' or anything similar.

--

Final conclusion: If the power doesn't tell you how to determine who it hits (by being Blast, Template, or having other special targeting rules), roll to hit - possibly multiple times, if the power has a profile that specifies that it shoots multiple times. Otherwise, do what the power says. If it says 'choose an enemy unit within X inches; that unit suffers Y hits', you don't need to roll to hit. If it says 'draw a line', you don't need to roll to hit. If it says 'psychic shooting attack with 18" range, S of 8 and AP of 4', then you need to roll to hit.

This is the way that the game has been played for years. A 10-word clarification in a FAQ isn't going to come in and tell us that we've been doing it wrong all along.

Xarian wrote:This is the way that the game has been played for years. A 10-word clarification in a FAQ isn't going to come in and tell us that we've been doing it wrong all along.

But yet... it did! That is usually why GW releases FAQs, because people have been playing rules wrong and they need clarification. People thought Deffrolling tanks was absurd and unbalanced... Psychic powers not autohitting anymore because nothing says they do will quickly be seen to be fair and balanced except for people who are bitter they got hit with the nerf bat.

I am stoked as now I get a 1/3 or 1/2 to nullify almost every psychic power that I dislike before it hits me.

nosferatu1001 wrote:To see if your power has any effect?

So if power misses, it has no effect, right?

...except that Murderous Hurricane FAQ says that it has effect even if it misses.

...oh...

I'm confused...

Xarian - template weapons Do need to "roll to hit" - i.e. step 3 of the shooting process - however they replace the "roll to hit" mechanic with something else.

If a psychic weapon uses the Blast Marker then it is a Blast WEapon. ALL PSAs are "Assault" by default, however making them use a blast or template means the follow those rules as well.

Otherwise, for example - how do you resovle the attack? without referencing the Blast rules you have no rules for determining hits, no rules for working out vehicle damage, and so on.

Grey elder wrote:Also seeing as Lash of Submission has the same wording as MH for picking a unit

Who cares, Lash is not a PSA, MH is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Xarian - template weapons Do need to "roll to hit" - i.e. step 3 of the shooting process - however they replace the "roll to hit" mechanic with something else.

If a psychic weapon uses the Blast Marker then it is a Blast WEapon. ALL PSAs are "Assault" by default, however making them use a blast or template means the follow those rules as well.

Otherwise, for example - how do you resovle the attack? without referencing the Blast rules you have no rules for determining hits, no rules for working out vehicle damage, and so on.

Nos, this still hasn't answered the problem with Nurgle's Rot.

If it is a PSA, I have to break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and assault rules to follow the PSA rules, not to mention the wording of Nurgle's Rot. So, in reference to Gwar! (or was it you), I would default to the answer that breaks the least amount of rules. Which would be that Nurgle's Rot automatically hits because it states that everyone within 6" suffers a hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Eldritch storm is a PSA using the large blast.

BR - the rules for the SW power tell you to place the blast over the Rune Priest. This does NOT override the step 3 replacement rules for rolling to hit (roll for scatter), it just limits where you can place the blast marker. So you still scatter.

Not that you'll listen. Bucket full of holes indeed.

If you check my breakdown Thunderclap, the placement of the blast is so that it touches the rune priest which would pretty much be step 1 and step 2, I listed it as step 1. When the rule tells you that that everything under the template takes a Str 3 hit would be step 3, being the codex exception to the general rule.

And oh wise one, you do not roll for scatter unless the psychic shooting attack is blast type. Using the marker does not make the power blast type. So no roll for scatter. I think I actually might have made that mistake at first as well, but ws corrected by someone else.

But hey, keep shouting, "PSA need to roll to hit" from the rooftops without following the rest of the rules. Hopefully that will work out for your gaming group.

It sure will.

NOt shouting, just reminding you that "exception" means just that - you have to show the exception, something you are singularly failing to do. AS in, utterly.

The exception that you continue to gloss over is right there in the rule where it tells you who and how the models are hit INSTEAD of the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Just another argument where you think arbitrarily introducing wording or requirements makes you win when the actual rules when read in simple plain english prove you wrong. Case in point, using the blast marker makes the attack type blast. Really? Being type blast makes and the attack type blast.

unneeded comment removed.

Reds8n


Have a nice day.

Brother Ramses wrote:

But hey, keep shouting, "PSA need to roll to hit" from the rooftops without following the rest of the rules. Hopefully that will work out for your gaming group.

People at tourneys seem to follow FAQs... so I am not worried. And it is really easy to roll to hit AND apply the effects of the power. You roll to hit... then apply the effects of the power if you hit. It isn't as complicated as you are making it, you just want to keep your power and dodge the nerf bat as you are a SW player.

As long as you and your gaming group agree to not roll to hit for PSA and disclosing what is in transports, more power to you. Whatever version fo 40k you and your opponent agree on becomes 'the rules' for that game.

As above

It isnt difficult to follow the FAQ, it is difficult to follows BRs dodging the question, insults and quite worrying "laughter".

Yes having read the Rulebook and Codexes as well as the FAQ.

I admit I was wrong and you were right Ramses

The FAQ is just stating what is already what is already there.

If you have any exception like JOTWW, blood lance and the like it overrides the need to roll to hit.

Damn

nkelsch wrote:

Xarian wrote:This is the way that the game has been played for years. A 10-word clarification in a FAQ isn't going to come in and tell us that we've been doing it wrong all along.

But yet... it did! That is usually why GW releases FAQs, because people have been playing rules wrong and they need clarification. People thought Deffrolling tanks was absurd and unbalanced... Psychic powers not autohitting anymore because nothing says they do will quickly be seen to be fair and balanced except for people who are bitter they got hit with the nerf bat.

I am stoked as now I get a 1/3 or 1/2 to nullify almost every psychic power that I dislike before it hits me.

FAQs don't introduce sweeping rules changes to the game. Period. There are often specific changes; for example, clarifying Scout/Shunt move, or explaining that Mind War is a Psychic Shooting Attack (which was not in the codex at all). Bigger changes only occur in errata, and there are usually explanations or justifications for the more contentious rulings. If you read a FAQ entry and say "wow, that changes the way that 25 different things are done in 7 different armies, and we've been doing it completely wrong for years, even after multiple rulebook and codex revisions and more than a hundred tournaments where everything was accepted as perfectly okay with no arguments whatsoever!" then you're interpreting the FAQ incorrectly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Xarian - template weapons Do need to "roll to hit" - i.e. step 3 of the shooting process - however they replace the "roll to hit" mechanic with something else.

If a psychic weapon uses the Blast Marker then it is a Blast WEapon. ALL PSAs are "Assault" by default, however making them use a blast or template means the follow those rules as well.

Otherwise, for example - how do you resovle the attack? without referencing the Blast rules you have no rules for determining hits, no rules for working out vehicle damage, and so on.

Right, replacing the "roll to hit" mechanic with "something else" is exactly what I'm talking about. Templates replace it with "place the template and resolve a hit against any model touched" (well, more involved, but you get the idea). Blast weapons replace it with "place the marker and roll for scatter, then resolve a hit against any model touched". And other, more exotic powers replace it with "draw a line and resolve a hit against any model touched" or "resolve 3d6 hits against the targeted unit". I'm just trying to explain that Template/Blast/exotic targeting methods are all equivalent - they all replace the standard "roll to hit" mechanic.

I honestly believe that the intended point of that particular FAQ entry was to clarify that psychic shooting attacks with a profile do not automatically hit - because psychic powers without a profile almost always automatically affect their targets without rolling to hit (for example, Doom).

pitfighter wrote:
I would counter argue on this. If all PSA's need a roll to hit before they resolve, does this mean that even Living Lightning needs a roll to hit before anything resolves?

Psychic test taken, roll to hit for the power
roll D6, roll for hits, and finaly roll for wounds. Does this make sense?

Wow... I'm floored. You just presented a well reasoned argument without being condescending or rude... On Dakka YMDC! Shocking! Kudos Sir!

Actually you do make a good point, and I don't really have an answer for that. While I do think that "to hit" makes sense for JOTWW and MH, the double to hit roll that would infer on LL seems incorrect. And you can't play a rule inconsistently from one power to another. I'll have to think about that...

As an aside tho, I wouldn't assume people are arguing for the "to hit" side because the think JOTWW is scary. I, for one, play Tau, and my army of suits and skimmers laugh at your JOTWW. I, and I'm sure others, just want the rules to be enforced properly (if indeed GW meant for them to be clarified this way).

Also in regards to the Nurgle thing, if it doesn't identify itself as a PSA and doesn't have a proper shooting stat line, then I don't think it qualifies as a PSA, and shouldn't need to roll for hitting.

Time for a little honesty check: How many people arguing in favor of BL and JotWW requiring a roll to hit really just want to see these powers get nerfed hard?

Xarian wrote:FAQs don't introduce sweeping rules changes to the game. Period.

yes they do.

If you read a FAQ entry and say "wow, that changes the way that 25 different things are done in 7 different armies, and we've been doing it completely wrong for years, even after multiple rulebook and codex revisions and more than a hundred tournaments where everything was accepted as perfectly okay with no arguments whatsoever!" then you're interpreting the FAQ incorrectly.

Ramming is a special type of tank shock would like to disagree with you for the 2+ years that wrong interpretation was out there being used by gamers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Eldritch storm is a PSA using the large blast.

That's right: Eldritch storm has a weapons profile with the rule "Blast" in it. As does Vortex of Doom.

Thunderclap doesn't, thus it is no more a "Blast weapon" than it is a Melta, or Rending weapon. Which is why it does not scatter.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Time for a little honesty check: How many people arguing in favor of BL and JotWW requiring a roll to hit really just want to see these powers get nerfed hard?

Honestly Yes I was

Choboking wrote:As an aside tho, I wouldn't assume people are arguing for the "to hit" side because they think JOTWW is scary.

Well, to be honest, JOTWW has had a lot of hate thrown at it over the years even if its actual effectiveness was subpar against a majority of amry lists. Tyranids have probably the best reason to hate JOTWW and have been some of its most vocal critics. Then again, it doesn't take much these days to rile a nid player as GW's constant shenanigans starting with 5th edition has kept thier back sides pretty tender. Even more so, SW are seen as being one of the more effective armies, which has naturally bred quite a bit of jealousy here on the Dakka forums. Some of that residual hate can certainly be seen bleeding into this and related threads that recently sprung up with the new BRB FAQ.

nkelsch wrote:Ramming is a special type of tank shock would like to disagree with you for the 2+ years that wrong interpretation was out there being used by gamers.

Ramming is under the tank shock section.

However:
- A change to the Deff Rolla is not a sweeping rules change. It affects one army, and it's a pretty minor change.
- It's a clarification, not a rules change. The same way that "you cannot use furious charge with the counter attack special rule because you are not actually charging" is a clarification.
- Ramming is new to 5e. Psychic powers have been around since 2e (or RT? not familiar with rules older than 2e), and have worked in their current incarnation since 3e.
- Flat-out denial of a conclusion is not a valid counter argument and is the equivalent of stamping your foot and shouting "nuh uh!"

What's the difference between Errata and FAQs?
As it is rather obvious from their name, these documents include two separate elements - the Errata and the FAQs. In case you were wondering, 'Errata' is a posh (Latin!) way to say 'Errors', and 'FAQs' stands for 'Frequently Asked Questions'. It is important to understand the distinction between the two, because they are very different.

The Errata are simply a list of the corrections we plan to make on the next reprint of the book to fix the mistakes that managed to slip into the text (no matter how many times you check a book, there are always some!). These are obviously errors, for example a model that has WS3 in the book's bestiary and WS4 in the book's army list. The Errata would say something like: 'Page 96. Replace WS3 with WS4 in the profile of the so-and-so model'.

The Errata have the same level of 'authority' as the main rules, as they effectively modify the published material. They are 'hard' material. It is a good idea to read them and be aware of their existence, but luckily there are very few of them for each book.

The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'. They are, of course, useful when you play a pick-up game against someone you don't know, or at tournaments (i.e. when you don't have a set of common 'house rules' with the other player). However, if you disagree with some answers and prefer to change them in your games and make your own house rules with your friends, that's fine. In fact we encourage you to shape the game around your needs and your taste. We firmly believe that wargaming is about two (or more!) people creating a gaming experience they are both going to enjoy. In other words, you might prefer to skip the FAQs altogether and instead always apply the good old 'roll a dice' rule whenever you meet a problematic situation.

Like I said, sweeping rules changes don't go in the FAQ. They come about because there was some sort of egregious error in the main rulebook, and they get hit with errata. Not a one-word answer to an eight-word question with no further clarification.

Xarian wrote:FAQs don't introduce sweeping rules changes to the game. Period.

That should be "Question Mark?" Since FAQs can and have introduced sweeping rules changes.

wyomingfox wrote:

Choboking wrote:As an aside tho, I wouldn't assume people are arguing for the "to hit" side because they think JOTWW is scary.

Well, to be honest, JOTWW has had a lot of hate thrown at it over the years even if its actual effectiveness was subpar against a majority of amry lists. Tyranids have probably the best reason to hate JOTWW and have been some of its most vocal critics. Then again, it doesn't take much these days to rile a nid player as GW's constant shenanigans starting with 5th edition has kept thier back sides pretty tender. Even more so, SW are seen as being one of the more effective armies, which has naturally bred quite a bit of jealousy here on the Dakka forums. Some of that residual hate can certainly be seen bleeding into this and related threads that recently sprung up with the new BRB FAQ.

I'm sure that is quite accurate, any strong codex is going to be a victim of "haters gonna hate." Still, I don't think that should figure into the discussion. SW players wan't to keep as many advantages as possible. Haters want to take as many toys away as they can. Both are understandable, but neither should be what we are concerned with.

The rules are the rules, arguments one way or the other should be evaluated objectively, and if you are not doing that (either side) then there is no point in contributing to the conversation.

Backfire wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Eldritch storm is a PSA using the large blast.

That's right: Eldritch storm has a weapons profile with the rule "Blast" in it. As does Vortex of Doom.

Thunderclap doesn't, thus it is no more a "Blast weapon" than it is a Melta, or Rending weapon. Which is why it does not scatter.

Er, Eldritch Storm doesn't actually have a profile, not directly. It uses the "place the large blast template" wording because in 4e (when the codex is written), Blast weapons had to roll to hit (rather than place and roll to scatter). It got FAQed to introduce the scatter roll once 5e hit.

Thunder Clap was written in 5e, so I figure they probably already accounted for the difference in wording, and scatter isn't intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Xarian wrote:FAQs don't introduce sweeping rules changes to the game. Period.

That should be "Question Mark?" Since FAQs can and have introduced sweeping rules changes.

Citation needed. Sweeping rules changes happen in Errata (rare) or in edition changes (common).

As with any argument on Dakka there comes a time for me when I put up my last word and just don't bother anymore with the repetitive counter-arguments.

You cannot argue against the repeated use of,

"PSA need to roll to hit!!"

Not because it is a valid argument, but because it is the tunnel vision stance of the blissfully ignorant. It is the Pee Wee Herman tactic of YMDC, ie, "I know you are, but what am I?"

Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit?

Yes.

Do ALL psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit?

No.

This is clearly evident by all of the various psychic shooting attacks spread across numerous codexes with their various rules for resolving how they are employed. It is then clearly and strongly backed by the BRB rule that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are found in the individual codexes.

The basic premise is far too simple;

"If the codex tells you something different then the general rules, you follow the codex."

I have already broken down several examples of psychic shooting attacks using the Shooting Sequence as my template and showing where general rules apply and where codex exceptions take precedent. Not suprsingly the responses were for the most part,

"Not uh, PSA need to roll to hit!"

So as has been mentioned, you can lead a horse to water but you can't stop him from saying, "PSA need to roll to hit" while making him drink from a water barrel full of holes that you had shot fish in.

Till the next faq.

Xarian wrote:Er, Eldritch Storm doesn't actually have a profile, not directly. It uses the "place the large blast template" wording because in 4e (when the codex is written), Blast weapons had to roll to hit (rather than place and roll to scatter). It got FAQed to introduce the scatter roll once 5e hit.

Um, at least the Eldar Codex version I have has a profile for it: Range: 18" S:3 AP: - Pinning, Large Blast. Has it changed at some point?

Large scale sweeping change brought about by a FAQ: BT "EMperors Champion" answer

Prior to this noone ever thought that a techpriest would be able to lead an army (non-HQ-filling HQ choice)

Not only a FAQ, but a FAQ for one army

Another way youre wrong in the sweeping statement: AP1 vs SMF in 4th edition, answered in the Eldar codex, from memory. Thats EVERY AP1 weapon in EVERY codex changed due to a FAQ

And so on

ANd ignoring BR for his inability to avoid insults. Bucket, holes, etc.

This may have been brought up already, but here it goes anyway.
Multiple Psychic Shooting Attacks say something to the effect of "draw a line and everything under that line is hit", correct?
So why is it hard to imagine that you have to roll 'to hit' to see if that line actually happened where you wanted it to?
Every other shooting attack has to roll 'to hit' to see if you hit what you were aiming at, why not JotWW or similar Psychic Shooting attacks?

Also, could someone explain to me if rolling a scatter die to see if a blast template scatters is considered 'rolling to hit'? That argument seems to be popping up regarding psychic shooting attacks that use blast templates. Thanks.






Remember, its a game. If you don't enjoy yourself even while being tabled, you should probably not be putting as much money into this hobby as you currently are

So we have non drinking horses and leaky buckets full of personal insults...

When the loudest argument is made by someone who promotes cheating as a tactic which has poisoned the thread for me.

Seems like it is very easy to resolve but there is too much invested for anyone to be objective. I can honestly say, I think JotWW deserves a thump from the nerf bat and I don't think rolling to hit once before cast is an unreasonable nerf... Since no one is a mindreader and can tell what is 'intended' unless the studio says one way or the other, we don't know what they intend. I guess we have to wait for INAT to clarify the FAQ into individual power rulings as I doubt we will get a GW FAQ re-FAQ before most of the summer tourneys.

As long as it is clearly agreed upon before a game/tourney, I can take either side as long as it is consistently applied.

Power Roll to Hit
Fury of the Wolf Spirits Yes
Jaws of the World Wolf No
Living Lightning Yes
Murderous Hurricane No
Thunder Clap No
Boil Blood No
Blood Lance No
Fear of the Darkness No
Shackle Soul No
Smite Yes
Hellfire Template
The Avenger Template
Vortex of Doom Roll Scatter
Machine Curse Yes
Wind of Chaos Template
Bolt of Change Yes
Doom Bolt Yes
Nurgles Rot No
Lash of Submission No
Mind War No
Eldritch Storm Roll Scatter
Destructor Template
Lightening Arc Yes
Soulstorm Roll Scatter
Frazzle Roll Scatter
Zzap ?
Leech Essence No
Paroxysm No
Psychic Scream No
The Horror No
Cataclysm Roll Scatter
Warp Blast Roll Scatter
Warp Lance Yes

I am a Blood Angles Player and I think that you should have to roll for Blood Lance. Yes it makes it less effective but it does define what a Psychic Shooting Attack is. I think we are seeing the first stirrings of 6th Edition.

This power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the
'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

Perhaps the Librarian need to be looking the correct way while dodging stray rounds, and in the utter chaos that is a 40k battlefield. I don't know but it doesn't really hurt the effectiveness of my main army that much and I can live with it.
I can tell you that since the FAQ specifically says that any Psychic Shooting Attack must roll to hit that is how I will be playing it. No matter if I think that its dumb or not.

I play in tournaments and I find that erring on the side of caution always pays off. I you are trying to hold on to something that is to your benefit most of the time GW will rule against it.

When the question of Coteaz came up regarding if you could have more troops then the force organization chart allows you I made my list with 6 troops or less. Guess what, that is how the ruling went.

This seems to be a trend in our community. Players holding on to rules that benefit their army above others. My rule is if it sounds too good for you it will be FAQed up for sure.

In addition if I am in a tournament and a Space Wolf player doesn't roll to hit I will be calling a Tournament Organizer over for a judgement. Like the Space Wolves need MORE tools to wreck me with, lol. I will also call any Eldar player who doesn't roll to hit with Mind War.

The FAQs are rules with which we all play by. As such, in a tournament I expect them followed. Even if I think they are wrong.

*Briefly stepping into the Thunderdome*

Is it THAT much of a nerf to require these abilities a roll to hit? Don't most of these caster have BS of 4 or 5?

Oh snap... you needs 2s or 3s to hit...

It isn't that much of a nerf...

However, like any other muddied rules, I'd consult with the opposing player or TO for clarification. I've done this with my Kanwall list (do I need 1 or 2 kans to get 4+) and I've always played accordingly.

*ducking all the trash thrown at me and leaving the Thunderdome *

Has it occured to anyone that psychic powers are considered " shooting attacks " for the purposes of needing a line of sight , assault/ unit targeting and keeping the model from the ability to fire twice? If jaws hadn't been a shooting attack , the Rune priest would be able to use it, and still fire his plasma pistol.

Has anyone thought that maybe this is why this power is a PSA and not for silly nerf arguments?

Right now everyone is assuming its need of a roll to hit, because it is shorted in the same basket as a PSA
under a very generic question & answer in the latest FAQ



just sayin....

Honestly I wouldn't mind if the overly cheesy BA and SW psychic powers were nerfed, but I have to agree with the notion that this FAQ really changed nothing.

We already KNEW that you have to roll to hit for Psychic shooting attacks unless they have other hitting mechanisms. It says so in the friggin' BRB.

Dave_Fay wrote:Leech Essence Yes

Leech Essence says that it "automatically hits"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Large scale sweeping change brought about by a FAQ: BT "EMperors Champion" answer

Prior to this noone ever thought that a techpriest would be able to lead an army (non-HQ-filling HQ choice)

Not only a FAQ, but a FAQ for one army

This is getting close to what I was referring to, except for one thing: nobody was doing anything illegal before the FAQ. It just made the Champion/Techpriests legal.

Another way youre wrong in the sweeping statement: AP1 vs SMF in 4th edition, answered in the Eldar codex, from memory. Thats EVERY AP1 weapon in EVERY codex changed due to a FAQ

IIRC wasn't this just a strict priority conflict? SMF made all penetrating hits glancing, and AP1 made all glancing hits penetrating. It did apply to many armies, but this was one of those things that was already in conflict previously (people argued about it a lot).

Compare this to something appearing in the FAQ that says "You know all those psychic powers that used to automatically hit? Now you have to roll to hit." It's introducing a completely new concept and a completely new roll that has never been present in any tournament, battle report, or rulebook for many psychic shooting attacks.

It's been argued about whether or not Living Lightning (for example) needs to make rolls to hit, but I've never seen anyone argue that Mind War needs to roll to hit, nor JotWW - before the FAQ came out.

Backfire wrote: unless they have other hitting mechanisms.

That's actually a good way to sum it up. PSA's need to roll to hit, unless they hit automatically, or already have a mechanism through which they establish "hits". Nurgle's Rot, for instance.

Except, if you read the FAQ, it didnt change the rules. Just told everyojne they HAD been playing it wrong, and all along they could have been using just the EC - and others - as sole HQ / Troops / etc.

wyomingfox wrote:

Dave_Fay wrote:Leech Essence Yes

Leech Essence says that it "automatically hits"

Fixed.

Thank you

puma713 wrote:

Backfire wrote: unless they have other hitting mechanisms.

That's actually a good way to sum it up. PSA's need to roll to hit, unless they hit automatically, or already have a mechanism through which they establish "hits". Nurgle's Rot, for instance.

Obviously if it says 'automatically hits' then it automatically hits. To that there should be no argument. However, if the wording is, for example, 'draw a line' and everything under that line gets hit, then you now have to 'roll to hit'. Essentially your determining if that line appeared where you want it to be. Seems to make sense both RAW and fluff wise. After all, every time a weapon is pointed in 40k, you are basically drawing a line towards the target unit and hoping the dice roll says that you hit what you were aiming at.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, if you read the FAQ, it didnt change the rules. Just told everyojne they HAD been playing it wrong, and all along they could have been using just the EC - and others - as sole HQ / Troops / etc.

I think I understand where you're coming from regarding "had been playing it wrong", but I'm more referring to "doing something that was illegal". You're not doing something illegal by not using the EC as your 1 required HQ, for example (or any of those other 'count as HQ/troops but don't take up a FOC slot' units that I can't think of at the moment). Whereas, if JotWW requires a to-hit roll, then everyone who wasn't doing that before was doing something illegal.

The english language is flexible enough that you can say something is automatic without using the word "automatic".

wyomingfox wrote:The english language is flexible enough that you can say something is automatic without using the word "automatic".

We start getting on really shaky ground there. 'They wrote this, but this is what they really ment'. The word automatic is used enough in the rules that I think they use it when they intend to use it. Thats just imho tho

Not in a rules based game. If it doesn't say "automatic" it's not "automatic".

Right or wrong, GW has stated point blank that PSA's MUST have a to hit roll unless their rules state specificly they don't.

Not nessesarily.

"The unit passes all leadership checks."

or

"The unit automatically succeeds at any leadership check they have to take."

Both statements are pretty conclusive that no roll would be needed.

Phiasco II wrote:
Obviously if it says 'automatically hits' then it automatically hits. To that there should be no argument. However, if the wording is, for example, 'draw a line' and everything under that line gets hit, then you now have to 'roll to hit'.

No you don't. You draw a line, that's your "hit". Nowhere does it say that you need to roll to hit so you can draw the line, or roll to hit against models which are already 'hit' by the line. If you 'hit', you have already 'hit'. You don't 'hit' twice, just like you don't 'wound' twice.

I mean, nowhere does it say what exactly you are supposed to "to hit" in Nurgle's Rot or JotWW. These attacks don't have single targets. Shooting rules are very explicit that you pick a single target not locked in close combat, and you may not split fire. Nurgle's Rot, by contrast, CAN be used even in close combat or against models in close combat, and can hit multiple enemy units. How do you resolve that assuming you have to "roll to hit"? Against what? How many times? What happens if you miss? Apparently nothing, since the effect does not seem dependant from any Ballistic skill tests. So "To hit" roll seems irrelevant.

In fact re-reading NR entry, I don't see how anyone can even argue that the power needs any kind of "To hit" roll, since it clearly states that successful Psychic test results to all enemy models suffering a hit.

Backfire wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
Obviously if it says 'automatically hits' then it automatically hits. To that there should be no argument. However, if the wording is, for example, 'draw a line' and everything under that line gets hit, then you now have to 'roll to hit'.

No you don't. You draw a line, that's your "hit". Nowhere does it say that you need to roll to hit so you can draw the line, or roll to hit against models which are already 'hit' by the line. If you 'hit', you have already 'hit'. You don't 'hit' twice, just like you don't 'wound' twice.

I mean, nowhere does it say what exactly you are supposed to "to hit" in Nurgle's Rot or JotWW. These attacks don't have single targets. Shooting rules are very explicit that you pick a single target not locked in close combat, and you may not split fire. Nurgle's Rot, by contrast, CAN be used even in close combat or against models in close combat, and can hit multiple enemy units. How do you resolve that assuming you have to "roll to hit"? Against what? How many times? What happens if you miss? Apparently nothing, since the effect does not seem dependant from any Ballistic skill tests. So "To hit" roll seems irrelevant.

In fact re-reading NR entry, I don't see how anyone can even argue that the power needs any kind of "To hit" roll, since it clearly states that successful Psychic test results to all enemy models suffering a hit.

Remember that Blood Lance, whick also draws a line needs to roll to hit now. This power is so similar to Jaws of the World Wolf that I can easily see how the ruling should be effecting both the same.

veritechc wrote:

Remember that Blood Lance, whick also draws a line needs to roll to hit now. This power is so similar to Jaws of the World Wolf that I can easily see how the ruling should be effecting both the same.

...which is why the same arguments why JotWW doesn't need roll to hit apply also to Blood Lance, as far as I can see.

Backfire wrote:
No you don't. You draw a line, that's your "hit". Nowhere does it say that you need to roll to hit so you can draw the line, or roll to hit against models which are already 'hit' by the line. If you 'hit', you have already 'hit'. You don't 'hit' twice, just like you don't 'wound' twice.

Pertaining to the bold in the quote: Yes, you draw a line and that is your hit. That is what you are rolling for now.
Pertaining to the italicized in the quote: It does now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously that completely imho

The one bit of this that confuses me is the linguistics of some of the powers, mainly the ones that say '*unfortunate target* suffers a hit'. What doesn't really make sense to me is that you can "suffer a hit" but then not be hit if the roll to hit fails.

On the other hand, this doesn't really affect me... one of my armies *can't* have psykers, and the other *doesn't* have psykers :X

Drachii wrote:
On the other hand, this doesn't really affect me... one of my armies *can't* have psykers, and the other *doesn't* have psykers :X

My psykers have BS2 and wear a 6+ teeshirt... So I am right there will you

Backfire wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
Obviously if it says 'automatically hits' then it automatically hits. To that there should be no argument. However, if the wording is, for example, 'draw a line' and everything under that line gets hit, then you now have to 'roll to hit'.

No you don't. You draw a line, that's your "hit". Nowhere does it say that you need to roll to hit so you can draw the line, or roll to hit against models which are already 'hit' by the line. If you 'hit', you have already 'hit'. You don't 'hit' twice, just like you don't 'wound' twice.

I mean, nowhere does it say what exactly you are supposed to "to hit" in Nurgle's Rot or JotWW. These attacks don't have single targets. Shooting rules are very explicit that you pick a single target not locked in close combat, and you may not split fire. Nurgle's Rot, by contrast, CAN be used even in close combat or against models in close combat, and can hit multiple enemy units. How do you resolve that assuming you have to "roll to hit"? Against what? How many times? What happens if you miss? Apparently nothing, since the effect does not seem dependant from any Ballistic skill tests. So "To hit" roll seems irrelevant.

"Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e., impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"

For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

Drachii wrote:
On the other hand, this doesn't really affect me... one of my armies *can't* have psykers, and the other *doesn't* have psykers :X

My psykers have BS2 and wear a 6+ teeshirt... So I am right there will you

Well... funnily enough of our PSAs: 'Eadbanger - Auto-hit, Frazzled - Auto-hit, Zzap - Auto-hit. They all state they automatically hit

ChrisCP wrote:
For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.

This is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. This interpretation creates a lot of problems. They've already been outline numerous times, so I think I'm done with this thread. Here's just a small list:

1) You said to choose a target. But the power doesn't affect a target unit. It has 'targets', but those are simply those affected. In fact, if you had to roll to hit anything, it would be the psyker, since the psyker is the focus of the power.

2) Secondly, if you have to choose a target, your not allowed to use Nurgle's Rot in close combat, which the power specifically says you can. So, you can use the power, but you cannot target anyone because of the Disallowed Shooting in the Shooting Rules?

3) Thirdly, the power says that everyone within 6" is hit. If someone within 6" didn't take a hit, then the power's rules haven't been followed.

Occam's Razor - all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. Or, Do not multiply beyond necessity. If you have to create rules (like you have to target a unit that you're never told to target so that a power can work, when it already worked in the first place), then you're doing too much work. The power works like it should if you roll the psychic test, then everyone within 6" takes a 'hit'. If you suddenly have to target, then have to figure out how you target in CC, then figure out how you use a PSA in CC, then figure out who you can assault because your power affected multiple people, you're "multiplying beyond necessity".

puma713 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.

This is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. This interpretation creates a lot of problems. They've already been outline numerous times, so I think I'm done with this thread. Here's just a small list:

1) You said to choose a target. But the power doesn't affect a target unit. It has 'targets', but those are simply those affected. In fact, if you had to roll to hit anything, it would be the psyker, since the psyker is the focus of the power.

2) Secondly, if you have to choose a target, your not allowed to use Nurgle's Rot in close combat, which the power specifically says you can. So, you can use the power, but you cannot target anyone because of the Disallowed Shooting in the Shooting Rules?

3) Thirdly, the power says that everyone within 6" is hit. If someone within 6" didn't take a hit, then the power's rules haven't been followed.

Occam's Razor - all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. Or, Do not multiply beyond necessity. If you have to create rules (like you have to target a unit that you're never told to target so that a power can work, when it already worked in the first place), then you're doing too much work. The power works like it should if you roll the psychic test, then everyone within 6" takes a 'hit'. If you suddenly have to target, then have to figure out how you target in CC, then figure out how you use a PSA in CC, then figure out who you can assault because your power affected multiple people, you're "multiplying beyond necessity".

No worries.
1) The rules tell us "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack" Pg 50. I feel this shows nicly, along with the faq that PSA follow the shooting sequence. One will have to elect a target for Rot, as one has to do with regular weapons. If one wish to say it was something like Dooms Spirit Leach, I gues that could be acceptable as well, although obviously a house rule as it's actually a PSA and doesn't say it doesn't need to elect target.

2) The above quote ties into this nicely, Nugles rot, as you say specifically says it can be used while in close combat. This is an example of specific > general. Generally one can't fire in CC, Rots tells us we can.This is similar to permission for a model in base contact with an enemy vehicle to attack in their assault phase, if it hasn't move. One isn't locked in combat, one can't assault during their turn, but the rules allow us to make the attack. Nurgles rot has permission to be used in close combat.

3) The rules will have been followed, becuase one has roll for the hit. This is a clarification for the rulebook to make it clear that a PSA must roll to hit unless it tells one not to. I feel Nugles Rot is most similar to a Vehicle explosion, also a type of ranged attack. And as such feel that only one roll to hit is called for, once the inital target has been hit everyone is hit, a miss is a miss and the power naturally doesn't work - not breaking the rules at all.

Occhams razor indeed, the simpilist or most direct solution, to make the fewest assumtions in our answer.. Following the rules - even a PSA such a rot fits into the shooting sequence as I've shown! Nothing new

I thinks its simple

If the power is a simple shooting attack then roll to hit

If the power has another mechanism for determining whether your hit stated in the power such as its a blast, flamer or has another mechanism for allocating hits i.e. JOTWW, NR or BL then use that and do not roll to hit. this covered on p50 of BRB and has not been errata'd

veritechc wrote:Remember that Blood Lance, whick also draws a line needs to roll to hit now. This power is so similar to Jaws of the World Wolf that I can easily see how the ruling should be effecting both the same.

No, it doesn't.

Corrode wrote:

veritechc wrote:Remember that Blood Lance, whick also draws a line needs to roll to hit now. This power is so similar to Jaws of the World Wolf that I can easily see how the ruling should be effecting both the same.

No, it doesn't.

Pointing to another thread where the exact same argument is taking place is not proof.

Well, until your Rune Priest can start tracing lines on the table, I think you just can't use the power at all.

Well the more I look at it from a different view, I see this,

As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along... models touched by this line must take an Initiative test...

This FAQ was put in to stop players from not requiring LOS, not to require a to-hit roll. And it says that it is 'as a shooting attack', not 'is' like Blood Lance does. Not only that, why would you be required to roll to hit when the Initiative test determines if the models are hit/fall into the void that is the jaws of the world? ??? Are those that oppose suggesting that the rune priest cannot stay focused enough to draw a straight line? I think the Psychic test determines that essentially.

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: ...any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack.

So I think I've reversed my view on this and pretty much convinced myself that JOTWW actually should not need a to-hit roll. And if it does, then GW/or opponent needs to clarify if every model needs a to-hit roll and why.

Blood Lance is even worse because it actually has a complete weapon profile (R,S,AP) and says that it 'is' a PSA. But it also is treated like JOTWW in that all types of models are hit if the line crosses them. For this I'd have to revert back to roll to hit the first model if any. I think more peeps should be discussing Blood Lance than JOTWW. Other than arguing the difference between 'is' and 'as', JOTWW simply does not meet the new FAQ requirement IMHO.

Not sure what the exact wording is for Nurgle's Rot is, but it's something along the lines of: It is a PSA that doesn't have a target but everyone within 6" suffers a hit. I look at this as though it is a blast marker, and the 6" is the radius; anything under/within it is hit.

So I'll likely go with this until GW fixes this gak.
Unless it hits automatically or has another mechanism in which it 'generates' hits, then you must roll to hit. Would this work for now, cause all this is super broken and makes no sense or at least needs clarification. Maybe GW is play testing the public with future 6th ED rules.

ChrisCP wrote:

For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.

This seems unnecessarily complex. If the rule says, 'automatically hit', then it automatically hits. There is no other qualifier then the fact that the affected models are in a 6'' AOE from the model casting Nurgles Rot.

Drawing a line, on the other hand, makes sense that you roll to see if you hit. Does that line appear where you where aiming? Hopefully, now roll your dice to find out. That makes as much sense as any other ranged weapon rolling to see if it hits what it was aimed at.

Phiasco II wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.

This seems unnecessarily complex. If the rule says, 'automatically hit', then it automatically hits. There is no other qualifier then the fact that the affected models are in a 6'' AOE from the model casting Nurgles Rot.

Drawing a line, on the other hand, makes sense that you roll to see if you hit. Does that line appear where you where aiming? Hopefully, now roll your dice to find out. That makes as much sense as any other ranged weapon rolling to see if it hits what it was aimed at.

No it is - I was just presenting it as an option and it's a well out of date quote

ChrisCP wrote:
No worries.
1) The rules tell us "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack" Pg 50. I feel this shows nicly, along with the faq that PSA follow the shooting sequence. One will have to elect a target for Rot, as one has to do with regular weapons. If one wish to say it was something like Dooms Spirit Leach, I gues that could be acceptable as well, although obviously a house rule as it's actually a PSA and doesn't say it doesn't need to elect target.

2) The above quote ties into this nicely, Nugles rot, as you say specifically says it can be used while in close combat. This is an example of specific > general. Generally one can't fire in CC, Rots tells us we can.This is similar to permission for a model in base contact with an enemy vehicle to attack in their assault phase, if it hasn't move. One isn't locked in combat, one can't assault during their turn, but the rules allow us to make the attack. Nurgles rot has permission to be used in close combat.

3) The rules will have been followed, becuase one has roll for the hit. This is a clarification for the rulebook to make it clear that a PSA must roll to hit unless it tells one not to. I feel Nugles Rot is most similar to a Vehicle explosion, also a type of ranged attack. And as such feel that only one roll to hit is called for, once the inital target has been hit everyone is hit, a miss is a miss and the power naturally doesn't work - not breaking the rules at all.

Occhams razor indeed, the simpilist or most direct solution, to make the fewest assumtions in our answer.. Following the rules - even a PSA such a rot fits into the shooting sequence as I've shown! Nothing new

I honestly feel that Nurgle Rot like Jaws and Blood lance require a roll to hit for their inital target - this is part of the shooting sequence and can not be avoided with rules saying otherwise - the carry on effects/hits happen with out more rolls - once the hit has been confirmed.

But if we had a PSA which was Assault 3 it would need 3 rolls (obviously).

'Suffers a hit' = 'automaticly hit'. They mean the same thing.

A 'line' is not a type of ranged waepon, as many of us have stated, and thus any PSA that uses is does not have to roll to hit because of the 'line' mechcanic. The 'line' is how hits are determined, not a to hit roll(s).

As outlined on Pg.50, PSAs must have a profile to need a to hit roll. A 'line' is not a range or a type of ranged weapon. All PSA are asault for moving, shooting, and assaulting perposes, however 'line's fall into a catagory that is codex only. Codex > BRB.

PSA for this perpose means that they cannot use this power and fire a ranged waepon.

Chagear wrote:'Suffers a hit' = 'automaticly hit'. They mean the same thing.

A 'line' is not a type of ranged waepon, as many of us have stated, and thus any PSA that uses is does not have to roll to hit because of the 'line' mechcanic. The 'line' is how hits are determined, not a to hit roll(s).

As outlined on Pg.50, PSAs must have a profile to need a to hit roll. A 'line' is not a range or a type of ranged weapon. All PSA are asault for moving, shooting, and assaulting perposes, however 'line's fall into a catagory that is codex only. Codex > BRB.

PSA for this perpose means that they cannot use this power and fire a ranged waepon.

No they don't. If you're 100% certain please provide a rules quote saying that - anything else is your interpretation.
As things stand I can provide evidence from the SW faq that the 'take 3D6 str3 hits' does not assume automatic hits.
"A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound."


To use a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon, we are shown by the Jaws FAQ that it needs to elect a target model, this is the model against which one rolls to hit - as always a miss, is a miss.

Wrong....

Bikeninja - please see the tenets of YMDC, which your post contravenes.

ChrisCP wrote:
3) The rules will have been followed, becuase one has roll for the hit. This is a clarification for the rulebook to make it clear that a PSA must roll to hit unless it tells one not to. I feel Nugles Rot is most similar to a Vehicle explosion, also a type of ranged attack.

...which, as you may know, does not roll to hit.

ChrisCP wrote:
And as such feel that only one roll to hit is called for, once the inital target has been hit everyone is hit, a miss is a miss and the power naturally doesn't work - not breaking the rules at all.

Except of course there is no passage in rules, or no example in other psychic powers why the sequence should work like this. Why do you assume "power naturally doesn't work"? MH does "work" even if it "misses" (whatever the "miss" means).

ChrisCP wrote:
Occhams razor indeed, the simpilist or most direct solution, to make the fewest assumtions in our answer..

That's right. And simplest assumption is that Nurgle's Rot does not roll to hit, because the power says that it produces automatic hits. And it is dubious whether it even is a PSA, as it doesn't have a real "weapon profile".

Honestly, if it says "hits", then it "hits". You might just as well argue that you need to roll to wound with Mind War. Because the Mind War does not say it AUTOMATICALLY wounds, does it?

Adressing your point in order here.

Yes, and if you consider the rest of the quote you used I go into the explanation of how the alternate method is to roll to hit for each model that is with-in range, this however doesn't follow to rules for shhoting ranged weapons, whin needs a to hit roll. Think of nurgles rot like a gun that has inflicts a str3 and has d6 range, one would not say "I can fire my gun and hit hits automatically." one would have to follow the shooting sequence which involves electing a target and rolling to hit. The key difference beign that a vehicular explosion does not count as firing a ranged weapon, as such it doesn't follow the stages for it and would not do anything when it come to the wounding process, we still must follow the sequence laid out in the shooting rules -otherwise the hit would not [u]do , has no FAQ clarifying that it indeed roll to hit - it may well be that one need to roll to hit for it after all.


"Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)." Page 50
In case you are actually unsure of what 'missing' means in the context of 40K "Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically – his shots simply do not reach." Page 17, or, "3 Roll to hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. The model’s BS determines what score they must equal or beat to hit their target." Page 15
As to assuming a power 'naturally works' it would be when it's not a PSA (something, Nurgles rot, tells us it is), or that it says it automatically hits, such as the three ork PSA which take the care to include this line as otherwise they would need to roll to hit.


Again, Nurgles states (if pumas quote is accurate) that "A psyker may use this power in the Shooting Phase instead of using another ranged weapon" meaning it's a ranged weapon or PSA, if it said just 'instead of' then sure not a PSA, as things stand, it can inflict hits, has a range, a strength, an AP and tells us that it is used in place of another ranged weapon, that can be used in close combat.
The simpilst assumtion is that it follows the shooting sequence laid out for alll shooting attacks, and it does not say that it automatically hit, PSA such as Zzap and Frazzled have written in their rules text that they automatically hit.

One doesn't need to roll to wound with Mindwar... it clearly states the target loses a wound... and otherwise one wouldn't be able to wound with mindwar - in case you are unsure what losing a wound entails " in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table" Page 24 is the first step, and page 26 explitily adress multi-wound models 'losing one wound' - "When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one Wound from its profile."

I'm not sure what you're trying to attempt here. Each point you have raise I had already addressed in this thread and others. Things like

And it is dubious whether it even is a PSA,

when Nurgles rot states that it's used in place of another ranged weapon has a range Str and AP, the wielder has a BS these are all the things one need to follow the shooting sequence as an attacking player. As the FAQ clarifies;
"Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack."
"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes."


If you choose in your plaing group to not rule Nurgles Rot as a PSA - then that's fine, your guys decision. Just that this conversation is based on it being a PSA, based on what it's ules say. And naturally.. if one was to assuem it wasn't a PSA, then it wouldn't roll to hit would it?

With Nurgle’s Rot though it clearly states that all models within 6" SUFFER a Strength 3 hit with no AP.

The more general rule that was given in the FAQ that PSA require a roll to hit would not override the more specific rule from the codex here.

If I was to roll to hit and missed any models in range, then each model didn't suffer a strength 3 hit and I did not follow the directions for the psychic power correctly.

I would agree that you would need to roll to hit if the power just stated that Nurgle’s Rot was a PSA that affected all models within 6" and had strength of 3 with no AP, that is not the case though. It says that all models are hit within 6" and logically no further hit roll would be required.

The FAQ just reaffirms the fact that PSAs like Bolt of Change don't automatically hit just because you passed the Psychic Check.

Hmm. It seems that JoWW would require a roll to hit as it is a Psychic Shooting Attack and does not have a provision to ignore it. However, the roll would be irrelevant as there is no profile and the rule states that any model under the line must test, not any model hit. Simplified, that would mean the specific rules for resolution supercede the base rules.

The SW FAQ addresses LOS and dosn't address the hit mechanism. The model being the target model means nothing in context of whether the power requires any sort of roll to be affected.

Agreed Jmurgh, as members have already clearly charted out each step within the shooting phase for JoWW a few pages back you would not need to roll to hit. And even if you did roll to hit the ending result would not change the outcome of the effects of the power.

All you need is LOS to the first target to trace the 24" line. Once thats done all models that it touches take a the initiative test or be removed from play.

I cannot for the life of me understand how something that has rules for drawing a line and stating that everything hit by that line has to take an initiative test now has to roll to hit as well. Just does not make sense.

@nosferatu1001 Yeah sorry, just frustrated.

To see if the line goes where you want it to?

jmurph wrote:Hmm. It seems that JoWW would require a roll to hit as it is a Psychic Shooting Attack and does not have a provision to ignore it. However, the roll would be irrelevant as there is no profile and the rule states that any model under the line must test, not any model hit. Simplified, that would mean the specific rules for resolution supercede the base rules.

The SW FAQ addresses LOS and dosn't address the hit mechanism. The model being the target model means nothing in context of whether the power requires any sort of roll to be affected.

Noir Eternal wrote:Agreed Jmurgh, as members have already clearly charted out each step within the shooting phase for JoWW a few pages back you would not need to roll to hit. And even if you did roll to hit the ending result would not change the outcome of the effects of the power.

All you need is LOS to the first target to trace the 24" line. Once thats done all models that it touches take a the initiative test or be removed from play.

To actually declare the useage of JoTWW one needs to elect a target, it is against this target one must roll to hit. JotWW does not contain text saying 'automatically hits'. Look at bloodboil on page 63 of blood angels, it states "this is a PSA that hits automatically...", Fear of Darkness "this is a PSA that hits automatically...", Shakle soul "this is a PSA that hits automatically...", but, The Blood Lance "this power is a PSA." and Smite "this is a PSA that has the following profile."
Now from Codex: Space Marines: Machine curse "This power is a PSA. If TMC hits...", The Avenger "This power is is a psychic shooting attack and has", Vortex of Doom "This power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile: Blast...If when using this power the Librarian fails his Psychic test, place the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Librarian - in this case the template (Sic: Marker) will not scatter."

These show that for a PSA to automatically hit, or for a PSA that takes the form of a marker that they scatter unless otherwise specified. PSAs due to taking the form of ranged attacks must roll to hit unless otherwise specified.

ChrisCP: You miss the point. The instructions state that the models *under the line* must take an I test, not models hit by the power. So the hit roll is irrelevant- roll to hit if you like, but the instructions say that any model under the line tests. Models not hit by roll would still be affected similar to at least one other Space Wolf psychic power. And models hit by roll do not suffer any additional effect.

And don't forget that Blood Lance is from the same Codex that brought us the impressively poorly worded Sanguine Sword, the power that had no duration.

When it comes down to it I really don't think I care if it needs a roll to hit or not. But those who are claiming that the FAQ holds the power of law over all creation really need to go back a couple of pages and read GW's own definition of F-A-Q. ( I'd link the post but I'm not sure exactly how to do that on the iPad.)

So if your group or TO decides to roll to hit, cool. But you better go through each and every current Codex to see how that will affect those powers. Particularly in tournament situations. Because some of these so called PSAs are gonna get weird.

Sanguinary Dan wrote: But those who are claiming that the FAQ holds the power of law over all creation really need to go back a couple of pages and read GW's own definition of F-A-Q.

You may want to go back a page and read DakkaDakka's definition of official sources of information.

Check number 2.

/shrug

First off, with Jaws you are never electing a target. Treating a model as a target for shooting purposes is a slightly different thing. If GW wanted to eratta the wording of the PSA in the last SW FAQ they would have done so. The power is treating a model as a taget to control some elements of the game.

Secondly, all these powers you mention have a specific way they work and they need a roll to hit their target, or they dont cause their codex states so, or they have a mechanic that auto hits their targets. There is no need for clarification that jaws autohits because it is clear enough from the way the power works. Psychic powers need a roll to hit because they are assumed to be weapons but theyre not, even when some of them even have a weapon profile. Living Lightning has a weapon profile. Is it a weapon? No, IT IS TREATED AS A RANGED WEAPON ( page 50 of BRB- ( using a psa counts as firing a ranged weapon) . As the Latest FAQ states , LL as a psychic shooting attack needs a roll to hit. This is what the FAQ intentds to make clear, because maybe for a small number of players it wasn't clear.Just Because for all of us this has always been clear, we are now trying to find the meaning of this FAQ. I still may be wrong, but I am trying to think clear here. By reading the wording of how Jaws works, the way the power causes " hits" is perfectly clear . I believe that if a roll to hit would be needed , it would have been stated that it does. " Roll to hit as normal and if the power hits, draw a line.... etc "

The roll is needed because once electing a target one must roll to hit. Saying these powers do not roll to hit is saying every blast-marker PSA doesn't scatter.

There are examples, a few of which have been quoted of the course of this thread, Marker-PSAs specifically mentiong that it 'doesn't scatter as normal', while other do not have the text. Again with Assault-PSAs, examples with "hits automactially", and powers without this text.

The Faq has now clarified that PSA do roll to hit, it's removed the only line of actual argument based of rules which was "Using a psychic shooting attack
counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon,
unless specified otherwise)... the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack." Pg 50, did not mean PSA attacks had to roll to hit. This interpretation was already inhrently silly as there are the afformentioned Assault-PSAs that state they 'hit automatically' and Blast-PSA that 'do not scatter' pointless text if other powers never rolled to hit.

l

By saying these powers do not roll to hit is not the same as saying that blast markers Psa Dont scatter. Again I think you are puting different things under the same basket. Blast marker weapons scatter because the BRB says that blast weapons scatter. It is a universal game rule for every weapon of the Blast type. But there are powers that use the blast marker whithout having the type " blast" profile such as the Thunderclap. you cant put it in the same category as blast weapons just because it uses the blast marker, do you? Thunderclap doesnt say to use the blast rules to see which models are hit or how to use it . It clearly says that every model under the blast takes a hit and you cant put it anywhere you would like, it has a special way it lands. See how different it is from normal blast weapons? .

I dont understand your example. How can it scatter if it is not a blast weapon? And why would it need a roll to hit when it clearly states how it causes hits?


Somewhat the same we re arguing about jaws here.

Faq doesnt come out to create changes on a game, it comes to answer some kids question about something. The question could be relevant or it could be just to clarify somesmall writing in the BRB such as
when you fire a shooting attack, it may not be like a weapon, but you need to know if it hits a target and so as you are treating it as a weapon, you roll to hit. Psychic shooting attacks normally need a roll to hit. But definately not always.

pitfighter wrote:Faq doesnt come out to create changes on a game

Really?

FAQ:

Q: If a Tyranid unit takes a Mycetic Spore, can an
Independent Character join the brood before
deployment (and hence deep strike in with the brood)?
A: No.



Editing to add:
I fully understand the sideways half-response that was, but it makes more sense than the position responded to.

kirsanth wrote:

Sanguinary Dan wrote: But those who are claiming that the FAQ holds the power of law over all creation really need to go back a couple of pages and read GW's own definition of F-A-Q.

You may want to go back a page and read DakkaDakka's definition of official sources of information.

Check number 2.

/shrug

Even though GW says otherwise? Really? Isn't the term FAQ used in that post to mean anything the company makes available to answer questions? GW says only errata changes the game's rules, and that FAQs merely describe how some of them play it at home. It's up to you wether or not you use that answer.

I don't really care. I stopped using the power when targets gained cover saves from it as if it were a dumb bullet, and not a pseudo-sentient bolt of energy able to ignore friendlies and CC scrums, but I don't want people to think that FAQ=Truth PERIOD End of Debate.

Sanguinary Dan wrote:I don't want people to think that FAQ=Truth PERIOD End of Debate.

You can play however you like. But for discussion, FAQ=Truth PERIOD End of Debate.

If you would prefer to discuss how people play despite FAQ=Truth PERIOD End of Debate, that is fine too. But acknowledge it.

pitfighter wrote: Blast marker weapons scatter because the BRB says that blast weapons scatter.

As far as this forum is concerned, the BRB also now says all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit.

Really a lot of people on this forum seem to be disagreeing on that point

I notice you adding "ALL" to the FAQ statement about PSA's there is no "ALL" in the FAQ wording.

If it stated ALL PSA's must roll to hit no exceptions that would be different but it does not.

Most of the guys I play with (me included) have been playing since rogue trader. They, and I, have gotten a good chuckle over this one. Mostly laughing at me because I have let this frustrate me to no end. As I said before, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I know this, at no time will I ever roll to hit for JotWW. Just not gonna happen.

I have a lot of respect for INAT and the work done on it. I pray they keep their brains and rule correctly. I would hate to have walk out of a game at Adepticon next year because they thought this was how it should be ruled. Try this type of silliness down here and you won't have alot of people to play with.

good luck.

Bikeninja wrote:I would hate to have walk out of a game at Adepticon next year because they thought this was how it should be ruled. Try this type of silliness down here and you have alot of people to play with.

good luck.

this makes you a poor sport if you cannot play in an event and accept a ruling you disagree with. Threatining a temper tantrum or to quit when a ruling doesn't go your way doesn't make you right.

Bikeninja - if you feel that strongly then dont even go to Adepticon, if they rule in a way you dont like

Far more mature a response than making a scene.

As far as JOTWW goes, what would you roll to hit against? Because, unless I'm missing something after reading the 5th edition SW codex, JOTWW doesn't have to target anything, it's just drawing a line ending 24" away.

The FAQ states that the first model you would touch is the target

Sorry have say you have lost me on this one Nosferatu i wanted to believe you but have been come round to the point of view
For following reasons
The instructions state that the models *under the line* must take an I test, not models hit by the power. So the hit roll is irrelevant- roll to hit if you like, but the instructions say that any model under the line tests. Models not hit by roll would still be affected similar to at least one other Space Wolf psychic power. And models hit by roll do not suffer any additional effect.

It's like no one else believes there isn't a precedent for a weapon that shoots a line and has to roll to hit.

DarknessEternal wrote:It's like no one else believes there isn't a precedent for a weapon that shoots a line and has to roll to hit.

You are running up against a basic human truth: people hate to change.

The FAQ changed the way the game plays and people hate that. Personally I will await the final decision from GW or sat a Tournament Organizer for a ruling.

n0t with a I test

Doesn't the vibro cannon work in basically the same way as jaws except it causes wounds for its hits instead of initiative tests?

MrDrumMachine wrote:Doesn't the vibro cannon work in basically the same way as jaws except it causes wounds for its hits instead of initiative tests?

You know it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

MrDrumMachine wrote:Doesn't the vibro cannon work in basically the same way as jaws except it causes wounds for its hits instead of initiative tests?

You know it.

No you take a Initiave test to see if you are affected instead of rolling to hit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

veritechc wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:It's like no one else believes there isn't a precedent for a weapon that shoots a line and has to roll to hit.

You are running up against a basic human truth: people hate to change.

The FAQ changed the way the game plays and people hate that. Personally I will await the final decision from GW or sat a Tournament Organizer for a ruling.

The FAQ did not change anything it mere stated what was already the rules

Empath wrote:
The FAQ did not change anything it mere stated what was already the rules

It absolutely changed things. One, no one was rolling to hit with JotWW and like powers before, now they have to. Two, psykers can't use the same power more than once per turn, which had also been the consensus practice.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Empath wrote:
The FAQ did not change anything it mere stated what was already the rules

It absolutely changed things. One, no one was rolling to hit with JotWW and like powers before, now they have to. Two, psykers can't use the same power more than once per turn, which had also been the consensus practice.

And ramming used to *NOT* be a tank shock action because people parsed bold print to determine they were separate but similar rules where one did not reside as a subset of the other. We fought for years about how Poodles are dogs and other crap and people played it wrong... Then GW released an FAQ and years of wrong play by the consensus was corrected and the meta game shifted.

It happens.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Empath wrote:
The FAQ did not change anything it mere stated what was already the rules

It absolutely changed things. One, no one was rolling to hit with JotWW and like powers before, now they have to. Two, psykers can't use the same power more than once per turn, which had also been the consensus practice.

1)That seems to been argued over with no one agreeing. The FAQ simply states what was the rule already and does not change that JoTWW uses an alternative method like many other powers as stated on P50 of the rulebook a PSA may do. They have not removed the unless specified otherwise rule so it still applies.

2)Yes that was was a change

1) except they havent specified an alternative method. At no point are you told "instead of rolling to hit..." or similar.

Yes, they haven't specified any alternative method such as tracing a line and having models under it test I or be removed....

jmurph wrote:Yes, they haven't specified any alternative method such as tracing a line and having models under it test I or be removed....

How do we know that doesn't replace the 'to wound' part of the shooting attack? Which requires a successful 'to hit' roll?

Many PSAs say 'automatically hits', JotWW doesn't.

Many PSAs use templates and blast markers which have exceptions to 'rolling to hit' as they are resolved differently... JotWW doesn't.

Just because people WANT to treat it like a template attack doesn't mean it is.

jmurph wrote:Yes, they haven't specified any alternative method such as tracing a line and having models under it test I or be removed....

No, they have specified A method for determining who is affected. That isnt the same thing as specifying "this is the alternative to the "to hit" roll you HAVE to make normally"

And would rolling a miss even effect how the power even works, going from how it is worded.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jmurph wrote:Yes, they haven't specified any alternative method such as tracing a line and having models under it test I or be removed....

No, they have specified A method for determining who is affected. That isnt the same thing as specifying "this is the alternative to the "to hit" roll you HAVE to make normally"

Would you like to bet you are right?

how about if and when GW rule on JOTWW with a FAQ statement specifiing JOTWW they will say you do not have roll to hit with JOTWW.


Loser never posts on DakkaDakka again


See I dont think you really believe you what you are saying and are just trying to get cheap advantage of poorly worded FAQ.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey elder wrote:And would rolling a miss even effect how the power even works, going from how it is worded.

No it would not

Empath - given GWs inability to rule consistently that is a fools bet. You can take it up if you want, not exactly a loss.

Empath wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jmurph wrote:Yes, they haven't specified any alternative method such as tracing a line and having models under it test I or be removed....

No, they have specified A method for determining who is affected. That isnt the same thing as specifying "this is the alternative to the "to hit" roll you HAVE to make normally"

Would you like to bet you are right?

how about if and when GW rule on JOTWW with a FAQ statement specifiing JOTWW they will say you do not have roll to hit with JOTWW.


Loser never posts on DakkaDakka again

See I dont think you really believe you what you are saying and are just trying to get cheap advantage of poorly worded FAQ.

Ill take that bet that we dont have to roll to hit with JAWS, are you interested Dracula1001 , I think alot people would like to see me gone right .

nosferatu1001 wrote:Empath - given GWs inability to rule consistently that is a fools bet. You can take it up if you want, not exactly a loss.

I knew you did not believe what you were saying

No, I do believe it to be actual rules. However GW and ruling with the actual rules in a FAQ? Theyre not exac tly known for it

If you want to stop posting anyway, thats fine by me.

Why are you scared?

You mistake disinterest in your post for caring.

What part of "fools bet" are you unwilling / able to understand?

Grey elder wrote:

Empath wrote:
Would you like to bet you are right?

how about if and when GW rule on JOTWW with a FAQ statement specifiing JOTWW they will say you do not have roll to hit with JOTWW.


Loser never posts on DakkaDakka again

See I dont think you really believe you what you are saying and are just trying to get cheap advantage of poorly worded FAQ.

Ill take that bet that we dont have to roll to hit with JAWS, are you interested Dracula1001 , I think alot people would like to see me gone right .

Good to see a man with some balls

While I disagree with Nosferatu's reasoning, I must agree on his sentiments on GW FAQing. One's willingness to wager has little to do with what the rules currently are nor how GW will eventually FAQ them!

Ok after reading 3 pages, my head is spinning.

I am surprised our beloved James Bond Sean Conner (sorry forgot your name) hasn't commented yet.

I am curious as to what he has to say about this. Back to page 4 now.

jmurph wrote:Yes, they haven't specified any alternative method such as tracing a line and having models under it test I or be removed....

Unless I am mistaken, most people read that as the result of a successful use of the power.

Empath wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

MrDrumMachine wrote:Doesn't the vibro cannon work in basically the same way as jaws except it causes wounds for its hits instead of initiative tests?

You know it.

No you take a Initiave test to see if you are affected instead of rolling to hit

Oh man. One may as well say, "It doesn't mean that because I don't want it to mean that!!!!!" Clearly, imo, you roll to hit for JotWW to see if that line that everyone under has to take an I test appears where you hoped it would appear. Just like every other shooting attack. You shoot a bolter, you roll to hit and see if what you were aiming at gets hit. Plain and simple.

And, btw, asking someonne, "are you scared" in response to them not taking your web forum challenge seriously, grow the up

YakkFace. Yes I believe that is the name he goes by on the forum. I respect what he says, even though I don't agree with him sometimes.

What does he have to say about this? What is his interpitaions?