Probably because most Games Workshop writers, designers, sculptors and artists are largely heterosexual males producing books, rules, miniatures and artwork for largely heterosexual male teens and young men.
You can say what you like about GW, but they certainly know their target audience!
filbert wrote:Probably because most Games Workshop writers, designers, sculptors and artists are largely heterosexual males producing books, rules, miniatures and artwork for largely heterosexual male teens and young men.
You can say what you like about GW, but they certainly know their target audience!
That and the fact that Americans (at least) are a very breast focused culture when it comes to judging women. I can't say i approve of it because i wouldn't want to see male models with giant cod pieces (cough sanguninary guard cough), but its an attempt to appeal to the hetrosexual male gaze. Honestly though its not a strange view on women; most things in pop culture have demeaning views on women. Speaking from an American perspective; i can point towards the modeling industry which portrays a body that only 5% of women have, take a look at movies many women are in movies just because they are the "current hottie" (jessica alba, Megan fox, etc...).
Point is we live in a patriarchal society (most modern civilizations are) and as long as we do women will always be subjected to such degradations.
BUT and i'd like to make this perfectly clear, I'm no feminst and honestly enjoy the society we live in and wouldn't lift a finger to change it, but i would be accepting if change came about.
For now big boobs = good; so everything marketed at men that wants to be good has to be associated with boobs.
For Wyches, their beauty is as important as their ability to kick ass. In a society where you can have your bones hollowed out and be turned into a birdman, getting a boob job wouldn't be hard.
when you have a 28/32 mm imodel its really hard to make it a recognizable female on the tabletop without highlighting feminine attributes (read: boobs)
i know there are sculptors out there who can pull this off but when you have to not only make the figure obviously female AND adhere to the aesthetics of the game you're sculpting for...sometimes bewbs is the answer
Automatically Appended Next Post: i see lord blackfang has said the same thing i did
An experience of GW's interaction with the opposite sex I had was a few weeks ago: I had stopped into a GW to have a look around when my friend and his girlfriend walked in. He's a bit of a fan but his girlfriend doesn't have anything to do with it. Anyway, we're looking through and a few guys are just staring at his girlfriend, and staff member come over offering a painting lessons, as they do, but my mates gf looks a bit uneasy and refuses. The staff member then goes into the back then returns immediatly with a pot of Tentacle Pink. She then decides to have a painting lesson.Nevertheless, my mate and I just give him a weird look as he then proceeds to give her an excruciatingly long painting lesson.
For those who don't know, GW have stopped producing and selling Tentacle Pink for about 5 years, yet they somehow had a pot in pristine condition almost as if they use pink paints to attract female hobbyists.
lord_blackfang wrote:I think we've been over this a few times in the past month alone.
If you want to make an obviously female figure in such a small scale you have to make the female features, well, obvious.
Otherwise the same people who complain about big breasts will complain that the mini looks androgynous.
Horray for "Male as Default"?
Really though, that claim is silly. Even something as simple as feminine hairstyles will mark a figure as "Obviously Female", if you really must have such a thing. If the only thing that can make you recognize a figure as female is a pair of twin-linked missile launchers on every figure.. that's just.. sad.
Even then, as someone who does complain about oversexualization of female representations I'd take heaping helpings of androgynous over what we have now.
when you have a 28/32 mm imodel its really hard to make it a recognizable female on the tabletop without highlighting feminine attributes (read: boobs)
i know there are sculptors out there who can pull this off but when you have to not only make the figure obviously female AND adhere to the aesthetics of the game you're sculpting for...sometimes bewbs is the answer
Automatically Appended Next Post: i see lord blackfang has said the same thing i did
Honestly that was the point I was going to bring up. Out of all the sculptors and minature lines that produce lady sculptures for production how many of them can really produce a good, B cup female miniature. Irl I likes me a good B cup, in a mini - I've never seen it pulled off well.
As far as the entire DE line (which before I start bashing I will say I like very much) it's funny to me that all you need to do is swap in a breasted torso to change the entire mini from male to female. Arms and legs are the same size - and super muscled. 50% of the heads are metrosexual. No sexual dimorphism in the models at all. Smooth from a production standpoint, but I must say that it wierds me out a little that a female wytch mode is about a head taller than a marine and is ripped like Conan the Barbarian.
These ain't dainty ladies, and they come packing the double D's!
MightyGodzilla wrote: 50% of the heads are metrosexual.
To be fair, this is an Elven problem all around. Excepting those systems where Elves bear facial hair, the only way to distinguish Elves as the fair and exotic race they always tend to read as is to make them a fair bit more androgynous than your average human facial and body structure tends towards, meaning that Elven genders will resemble each other more than human genders do. This leads to problems that at a scale such as 28mm, you require certain, shall we say, assets to distinguish the male and female, especially when they are all wearing the same thing.
MightyGodzilla wrote: 50% of the heads are metrosexual.
To be fair, this is an Elven problem all around. Excepting those systems where Elves bear facial hair, the only way to distinguish Elves as the fair and exotic race they always tend to read as is to make them a fair bit more androgynous than your average human facial and body structure tends towards, meaning that Elven genders will resemble each other more than human genders do. This leads to problems that at a scale such as 28mm, you require certain, shall we say, assets to distinguish the male and female, especially when they are all wearing the same thing.
To be honest it wasn't the heads that got me, I perfectly understand and accept your reasoning, and I didn't really have a problem with it so much as just pointing it out. It's the Uber muscles on the lady wyches that make me lol. In the fluff and art they're depicted as lithe and agile, but the minis make me think that they could pick up a scout by the face and throw him through two metres of plascrete.
...as he plays with his new box of Scourges, the one unhelmetted head is metro, maybe slightly, ever so, guyish than girlish. But be that as it may when you slap it onto some massive chesties we can call this one...chick.
lord_blackfang wrote:I think we've been over this a few times in the past month alone.
If you want to make an obviously female figure in such a small scale you have to make the female features, well, obvious.
Otherwise the same people who complain about big breasts will complain that the mini looks androgynous.
Horray for "Male as Default"?
Really though, that claim is silly. Even something as simple as feminine hairstyles will mark a figure as "Obviously Female", if you really must have such a thing. If the only thing that can make you recognize a figure as female is a pair of twin-linked missile launchers on every figure.. that's just.. sad.
Even then, as someone who does complain about oversexualization of female representations I'd take heaping helpings of androgynous over what we have now.
Chongara wrote:Really though, that claim is silly. Even something as simple as feminine hairstyles will mark a figure as "Obviously Female", if you really must have such a thing. If the only thing that can make you recognize a figure as female is a pair of twin-linked missile launchers on every figure.. that's just.. sad.
Yeah, but then you go down the path of "what's a feminine hairstyle?"
Valkyrie wrote:For those who don't know, GW have stopped producing and selling Tentacle Pink for about 5 years, yet they somehow had a pot in pristine condition almost as if they use pink paints to attract female hobbyists.
Excellent, that was excellent! It's funny how this just contributes to the stereotypical nerd profile hobbyists get. I mean, its like most of them have never seen a girl, or are so deprived that a single female hint in a GW store freezes al activity.
Still, the tentacle pink thing is excellent. Made my day!
We were going to have a painting day in July to knock out 30 Mantic Zombies for our D&D campaign. One player's wife volunteered to paint one zombie, but only if she could paint it pink...
Why'd they stop making tentacle pink? it looks like a good color for those doing rat tails and such...
Anyway, from talking to a woman I game with, finding RPG character minis for female characters can be 'interesting' in general if she's not in a chainmail bikini mood. It's certainly not GW going it alone here.
On the other hand, male human RPG characters tend to fall into a handful of steretypes as well: The 'conan steroidal fighter', the 'knight big warrior', the 'sneaky slender ranger/thief' and the 'old wizard.' There's more stereotypes, but not man, really. Then again, RPG characters tend to be idealized a bit in general, so it's not a huge deal: I don't really want to play an overweight, average hieght guy with poor vision, so i don't mind my mini being in better shape than I am.
Im glad that GW stocks female models. I hate it when people think: war = man vs man. it should be: war = a pointless struggle were man and woman can stand together and fight for there country with equal might!
We were going to have a painting day in July to knock out 30 Mantic Zombies for our D&D campaign. One player's wife volunteered to paint one zombie, but only if she could paint it pink...
^
I can sympathise with that, part of my Eldar army is now pink...
Balance wrote:Why'd they stop making tentacle pink? it looks like a good color for those doing rat tails and such...
It's also the best color for edge-highlighting purple.
I don't have the link handy (But I copied the article to my iPod Touch via Evernote) but Dakka Dakka's article comparing various paint brands shows that pretty muche very other vendor (Vallejo, Reaper, P3) makes a near-identical color at least.
They can be hit or miss with their female figures.
Mostly miss, like the East German Ladies Shot-put Dreadlord:
But the occasional hit:
It's also worth noting that Lelith's boobs aren't that big, as Jes can sculpt a female form very well and knows elf lasses don't have giant melons of spikey evil.
1.) I don't find their current releases to be as out-of-proportion, breastwise, as they formerly were. Leileth looks like a B cup, at best, which is about right for a woman who has been very athletic her whole life, she looks like a gymmast.
2.) In general, though, I do agree with you. Cleavage on the sensual Dark Eldar is acceptable, but on an imperial guardswoman wearing body armor, you wouldn't expect to see any. And by "see any", I mean female guardswomen, amirite?
3.) On the GWS list of things I don't like, even when poorly proportioned (i.e. D-cups for all) I can forgive since they also exaggerate proportions on men, too. Show me a skinny guardsman, or a Space Marine less then 10 feet, all with giant Arnold-like physiques.
4.) The general representation of women as portrayed by GWS is shameful.
It's also worth noting that Lelith's boobs aren't that big, as Jes can sculpt a female form very well and knows elf lasses don't have giant melons of spikey evil.
thenoobbomb wrote:What do you think about how GWS models their female minis?
All except SoB in power armor have, well, big bewbs, IMHO. (wyches for instance)
What do you think about it..
?
I thought in our society thats whats optimum for a female?
just like for male, its height + muscles?
I certainly never heard complaints about how big GW male muscles are?
thenoobbomb wrote:What do you think about how GWS models their female minis?
All except SoB in power armor have, well, big bewbs, IMHO. (wyches for instance)
What do you think about it..
?
I thought in our society thats whats optimum for a female?
just like for male, its height + muscles?
I certainly never heard complaints about how big GW male muscles are?
Until space marine heads become the size of raisins on their massive fifteen foot bodies.
Know your audience, even know it has passed beyond stereotype to the point of caricature. Under all that 'purge the heretic/enslave the galaxy/nomnomnom/WAAAAAGH' is a lil gamer nerd looking for gold and busty beauties with +3 Giant Melons of Spikey Evil, if only the pretend kind.
While there are there are more, ahem, down-to-earth minatures out there, even in the GW ranges, the quickest way to get a person to notice a 28mm is female is to use the most obvious visual characteristic. It isn't just miniatures or gaming or entertainment. The quickest way to visually identify a female image or associate something with traditional female characteristic is with +3 Giant Melons of Hypnotizing Doods. This has been pretty much been going on since somebody started drawing with a half-burnt stick. We be creatures of the flesh after all.
thenoobbomb wrote:What do you think about how GWS models their female minis?
All except SoB in power armor have, well, big bewbs, IMHO. (wyches for instance)
What do you think about it..
?
I thought in our society thats whats optimum for a female?
just like for male, its height + muscles?
I certainly never heard complaints about how big GW male muscles are?
Until space marine heads become the size of raisins on their massive fifteen foot bodies.
My point exactly, according to how GW portrays SM and Catachans. the female sculpt's boobies can go a few cups larger and it would still be according to ratio.
I think its just silly , almost like people complain because OMG BOOBIES IM SO SCARED!
Boldred wrote:I remember tentacle pink. Funny that the guy still had some.
I know someone(a former Outrider) who bought 1-2 cases direct from them when we were told it was being discontinued because it was the main color for his Emperor's Children.
the majority of the busts they sculpt (including wyches and guardians) aren't proportioned correctly unless the women are wearing 1960's pulp sci-fi Barbarella cones under their armor - everything is pushed 'outward' toward the arms while retaining a pyramid shape which is incorrect for the fit of clothing they are wearing
This thread is hilarious because it's purpose seems to be to gather people that want to lament GW's focus on chest size, and instead instead of noticing the obvious anatomical errors everyone is just talking about how big the chests are. They can be big and still look right, but they don't, and it's not because the busts are large.
They're gonna have bigger breasts than they should, it's part of heroic scale. The problems I have with Sisters power armor is taht it doesnt' fit their theme, not that they're too well endowed
filbert wrote:Probably because most Games Workshop writers, designers, sculptors and artists are largely heterosexual males producing books, rules, miniatures and artwork for largely heterosexual male teens and young men.
You can say what you like about GW, but they certainly know their target audience!
If I see that picture of an Ork Cheerleader I'm going to flip a bitch.
But anyway, I think GW's sculpts are on the smaller/realistic side of proportions. The only one I can think of that is expcetionally busty is the Damsel on horseback.
Boldred wrote:I remember tentacle pink. Funny that the guy still had some.
I know someone(a former Outrider) who bought 1-2 cases direct from them when we were told it was being discontinued because it was the main color for his Emperor's Children.
My local Toyworld still had some in stock until recently. I purchased the last 3 for my partner's Slaanesh daemons.
However, you can re-create it simply by mixing bone, white and warlock or liche purple together... its not science, but it passes.
Goddard wrote:If I see that picture of an Ork Cheerleader I'm going to flip a bitch.
when i got onto this thread I thought Lol Whut?
Then I started reading through i was like oh okay.
But then i read the top thing which Reads...
Gamesworkshop and their Strange View of Women... You can only blame the dice for so long.........
Which i think gw will say. or someone else.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the SoB. Yes, it is a bit silly to have large breasts molded on power armour, but the SoB line is nothing if not silly. I mean, space-nuns with bolters driving a tank that shoots missiles out of a pipe-organ? If there was even a single element of the SoB line that wasn't silly the whole line would probably collapse into some kind of quantum paradox. And as I've said before, I've got no problem with boobs on a mini. They're only inappropriate when their presentation runs contrary to the rest of the line's aesthetic.
[overthink]
Actually, GW generally seems to do pretty well in this regard. GW's approach to women is immature of course, but compared to many other miniature companies GW is remarkably non-exploitative. GW's problem is more like a pre-adolescent boy's problem with girls than any kind of sex obsession. GW seems to be aware that there are women out there, and maybe they're beginning to think the ladies are oddly compelling but they aren't sure why, and they try to keep it a secret so that none of their pals find out and make fun of them for liking girls. So there are a few token ladies here and there in their products, but they're usually either confined to characters that fit a fantasy archetype (maidens, sorceresses), units of all girls neatly segregated from the boys (DE witch elves, Eldar howling banshees, SoB), or occasional women mixed into an army known for their androgynous aesthetic (Eldar guardians, DE wyches). They even have a big old "No Girlz aLloweD!" sign on their best club house, the space marine line. But then again, if there were female space marines we'd probably be subjected to God-awful fan-fiction about Dante hooking up with a callidus assassin or Marneus Calgar going on the pull. So maybe it's better there aren't.
Like MeanGreenStompa said, they're very hit/miss in their sculpts, possibly because GW sculptors are aware that women exist but try not to look at them very often. Kind of like how whoever sculpted minotaurs was clearly aware of cows as a concept, but I'm guessing has never actually seen one. But as annoying as it is to see GW be so inconsistent, I much prefer their approach to minis than a line of nothing but improbable chainmail bikinis. Like I said earlier, if miniature want to sculpt their ladies with T&A that's fine, but it needs to be consistent with their line. So DE witches are ridiculously dressed, but every other dark elf is ridiculously dressed as well. And there are female DE spear(wo)men with lots of covering, so there is at least a sense that there is a reason DE witches strip down to their metal undies and braid fish hooks into their hair.
Contrast this with say, Wargames Factory's Amazons which are the sculpting equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. Amazons are famous as the roughest, toughest women from mythology, and WGF turned them into a bunch of inept-looking cheerleaders. I'll take GW's almost innocent pre-teen fear of women in miniature to other companies' exploitative teenage horndog approach.
A while back, several famous woman-gamers had a panel discussion talking about the state of female characters in gaming (sorry, I don't remember the event, just that Kathleen Devere was on the panel.) And the thing that I kept seeing with that discussion is that men tend to be more uncomfortable with overly-sexified female characters than many women are. Which makes sense, because overly-sexified characters are a way of marketing to men, and it implies a quite insulting notion of what the marketing department thinks is sufficient to get men's money. Women on the other hand (at least the women on the panel) don't tend to care if female characters are over-sexified as long as the characters are cool. The SoB are silly, but you could imagine someone thinking they're cool. I have trouble imagining anyone who thinks the WGF Amazons represent cool women. So yeah, GW could do better, but judging by many of their competitors, they could do a lot worse.
[/overthink]
Balance wrote:
On the other hand, male human RPG characters tend to fall into a handful of steretypes as well: The 'conan steroidal fighter', the 'knight big warrior', the 'sneaky slender ranger/thief' and the 'old wizard.' There's more stereotypes, but not man, really. Then again, RPG characters tend to be idealized a bit in general, so it's not a huge deal: I don't really want to play an overweight, average hieght guy with poor vision, so i don't mind my mini being in better shape than I am.
Not an exact response, but here's Megan Rosalarian's argument as
to why sexualization and stereotyping of the female figure in comic
books isn't the same as the sexualization and stereotyping of the male
figure in comic books:
She even does up an example of how a man would be represented if
he were posed and attributed in a similar fashion to his female
counterparts:
Her argument isn't that idealizations are wrong, but that sexualized
idealizations of superheroes is degrading, impractical, and a turn-off,
and these idealizations are geared toward a male audience who
want costumes that feature D-cups.
MikeMcSomething wrote:This thread is hilarious because it's purpose seems to be to gather people that want to lament GW's focus on chest size, and instead instead of noticing the obvious anatomical errors everyone is just talking about how big the chests are.
Both previous to, and subsequent to, your posts, a great deal of posters pointed out that GWS are poor at proportions in general.
JOHIRA wrote: GW's problem is more like a pre-adolescent boy's problem with girls than any kind of sex obsession. GW seems to be aware that there are women out there, and maybe they're beginning to think the ladies are oddly compelling but they aren't sure why, and they try to keep it a secret so that none of their pals find out and make fun of them for liking girls.
This is hitting the nail on the head. The fact you don't see any female Guardswomen is for the reasons above, and the fact that this is how GWS views it's target audience - young boys who still find girls to be icky - makes me shameful of playing this game as a grown man. It's a little embarrassing.
On the other hand, if you look at how virtually every single "female space marine" thread goes down, perhaps they have accurately gauged the maturity of their audience. That makes me a sad panda.
Melissia wrote:They're gonna have bigger breasts than they should, it's part of heroic scale. The problems I have with Sisters power armor is taht it doesnt' fit their theme, not that they're too well endowed
thenoobbomb wrote:What do you think about how GWS models their female minis?
All except SoB in power armor have, well, big bewbs, IMHO. (wyches for instance)
What do you think about it..
Not a fair point. GW miniatures are scaled out of true proportion, but are scaled reaonably fairly.
Most gamers are males and have a natural eye for female proportion and less interest in male proportion. GW male miniatures and female miniatures are both caricatures. Noone notices much let alone complains when the men don't look like actual men, if the women look out of proportion its actual more in proportion when compared to the counterpart male miniature (and that is not a reference to genetalia, just general build).
I'm not sure if this is what you''re talking about as I haven't read the entire thread yet, but are you talking about how females have six packs but not males?
Valkyrie wrote:For those who don't know, GW have stopped producing and selling Tentacle Pink for about 5 years, yet they somehow had a pot in pristine condition almost as if they use pink paints to attract female hobbyists.
Excellent, that was excellent! It's funny how this just contributes to the stereotypical nerd profile hobbyists get. I mean, its like most of them have never seen a girl, or are so deprived that a single female hint in a GW store freezes al activity.
Still, the tentacle pink thing is excellent. Made my day!
You guys have been to GW romford too?
Well lets face it fantasy outfits based on medevil outfits would be lower cut to show parts off, or am I just thinking of those serving wench outfits again? Personally my worst offenders for making female models sexed up would be the esher gang stuff and it reminded me of a Nodwick stril where the female thief comments on the armour screaming kill me, I'm stupid And they should definitely work on making more feminine hairstyles, in fact, just a variety of hair styles that aren't just "heres some punk hair styles, it's grimdark honest".
Valkyrie wrote:For those who don't know, GW have stopped producing and selling Tentacle Pink for about 5 years, yet they somehow had a pot in pristine condition almost as if they use pink paints to attract female hobbyists.
Excellent, that was excellent! It's funny how this just contributes to the stereotypical nerd profile hobbyists get. I mean, its like most of them have never seen a girl, or are so deprived that a single female hint in a GW store freezes al activity.
Still, the tentacle pink thing is excellent. Made my day!
GW's take on females isn't something that bothers me all that much, its more the lack of ability in sculpting. I just tend to go 'yay another female model' when one is done well: I'd rather there more female models, even ones with larger breasts, than none at all.
JOHIRA wrote:Women on the other hand (at least the women on the panel) don't tend to care if female characters are over-sexified as long as the characters are cool.
Rings true for all the female gamers (inc myself) I've ever known: we just tend to laugh when proportions are done really, really badly.
Vermillion wrote:
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Valkyrie wrote:For those who don't know, GW have stopped producing and selling Tentacle Pink for about 5 years, yet they somehow had a pot in pristine condition almost as if they use pink paints to attract female hobbyists.
Excellent, that was excellent! It's funny how this just contributes to the stereotypical nerd profile hobbyists get. I mean, its like most of them have never seen a girl, or are so deprived that a single female hint in a GW store freezes al activity.
Still, the tentacle pink thing is excellent. Made my day!
You guys have been to GW romford too?
Well lets face it fantasy outfits based on medevil outfits would be lower cut to show parts off, or am I just thinking of those serving wench outfits again? Personally my worst offenders for making female models sexed up would be the esher gang stuff and it reminded me of a Nodwick stril where the female thief comments on the armour screaming kill me, I'm stupid And they should definitely work on making more feminine hairstyles, in fact, just a variety of hair styles that aren't just "heres some punk hair styles, it's grimdark honest".
Sure you're not talking about most stores in Britain there? I've been in a few stores around Britain and while a few years ago it wasn't as bad; any store I've gone into recently its been very much. "Aaaargh... a girl! Everybody freeze and assume pink models will subdue her!" ...and they really hate it when I talk about models, converting and having an army, like it scares them. Then there was the time I went to Games Day on a shop bus: I still feel eternally sorry for the girlfriend who got dragged along (and looked deathy bored all day) because she painted the banner. (Actually yes there was pink on it!)
I'll second (or third...or fourth at this point, I dunno) that Lelith is one of the best female models GW has ever done, if not the best. But then again I'm not sure what that says about us seeing as how she's still half-naked. It's not really the skin that impresses me though, it's how relatively well-proportioned she looks for a heroic-scale figure (Lelith still isn't perfect, but compared to what else GW has to offer I mean) and how her pose, her expression, and her figure all fit her character. She looks agile, she looks deadly, and she definitely looks like she takes her work seriously.
I don't really have a problem with the wyches either, I still think they're awesome and miles above the old ones (buh...), but I have to agree with the other complaints, maybe they are just a tad androgynous and maybe they could have toned down their arms just a little bit. I never noticed how large their chests were though, guess I never paid much attention. So I'll say that at least, the plastic wyches are great but they would have been so much better if they were more like Lelith...but then again maybe that was intentional, since the regular wyches are all roided out and high on drugs while they make a point in the fluff that Lelith doesn't use them at all.
Valkyrie wrote:For those who don't know, GW have stopped producing and selling Tentacle Pink for about 5 years, yet they somehow had a pot in pristine condition almost as if they use pink paints to attract female hobbyists.
Excellent, that was excellent! It's funny how this just contributes to the stereotypical nerd profile hobbyists get. I mean, its like most of them have never seen a girl, or are so deprived that a single female hint in a GW store freezes al activity.
Still, the tentacle pink thing is excellent. Made my day!
Must be a dry area for female geeks/gamers.
My area seems to be inundated with 'em and half my current RPG is made up of female gamers, which is actually down from a past group where me and the GM were the only blokes in a group of 7 people.
malfred wrote: Her argument isn't that idealizations are wrong, but that sexualized
idealizations of superheroes is degrading, impractical, and a turn-off,
and these idealizations are geared toward a male audience who
want costumes that feature D-cups.
So her argument is based on the presumption that men all want to see D-cup hoochie mamas?
Her alternative male superhero looks like a young Marlon Brando in BDSM drag. I'm not a woman, but I can say with fair certainty that women do not want that. If male superheroes were crafted to be ideals for women, they would probably look like metrosexual hipster stick people with lots of money and no masculine assertiveness.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: If male superheroes were crafted to be ideals for women, they would probably look like metrosexual hipster stick people with lots of money and no masculine assertiveness.
Nuts, and this thread was going so well. Still I guess that making it three pages before the dumb started busting loose is a pretty good run.
kronk wrote:Their boobs aren't big enough. We need more Linsey Dawn McKenzie style models.
Wonder how many people looked her up/have her as a wallpaper now.
Ok so i googled her. Bleh, so not my type. Boobs aside she isn't hot, she's not ugly but definitely not hot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JOHIRA wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with the SoB. Yes, it is a bit silly to have large breasts molded on power armour, but the SoB line is nothing if not silly. I mean, space-nuns with bolters driving a tank that shoots missiles out of a pipe-organ? If there was even a single element of the SoB line that wasn't silly the whole line would probably collapse into some kind of quantum paradox. And as I've said before, I've got no problem with boobs on a mini. They're only inappropriate when their presentation runs contrary to the rest of the line's aesthetic.
[overthink]
Actually, GW generally seems to do pretty well in this regard. GW's approach to women is immature of course, but compared to many other miniature companies GW is remarkably non-exploitative. GW's problem is more like a pre-adolescent boy's problem with girls than any kind of sex obsession. GW seems to be aware that there are women out there, and maybe they're beginning to think the ladies are oddly compelling but they aren't sure why, and they try to keep it a secret so that none of their pals find out and make fun of them for liking girls. So there are a few token ladies here and there in their products, but they're usually either confined to characters that fit a fantasy archetype (maidens, sorceresses), units of all girls neatly segregated from the boys (DE witch elves, Eldar howling banshees, SoB), or occasional women mixed into an army known for their androgynous aesthetic (Eldar guardians, DE wyches). They even have a big old "No Girlz aLloweD!" sign on their best club house, the space marine line. But then again, if there were female space marines we'd probably be subjected to God-awful fan-fiction about Dante hooking up with a callidus assassin or Marneus Calgar going on the pull. So maybe it's better there aren't.
Like MeanGreenStompa said, they're very hit/miss in their sculpts, possibly because GW sculptors are aware that women exist but try not to look at them very often. Kind of like how whoever sculpted minotaurs was clearly aware of cows as a concept, but I'm guessing has never actually seen one. But as annoying as it is to see GW be so inconsistent, I much prefer their approach to minis than a line of nothing but improbable chainmail bikinis. Like I said earlier, if miniature want to sculpt their ladies with T&A that's fine, but it needs to be consistent with their line. So DE witches are ridiculously dressed, but every other dark elf is ridiculously dressed as well. And there are female DE spear(wo)men with lots of covering, so there is at least a sense that there is a reason DE witches strip down to their metal undies and braid fish hooks into their hair.
Contrast this with say, Wargames Factory's Amazons which are the sculpting equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. Amazons are famous as the roughest, toughest women from mythology, and WGF turned them into a bunch of inept-looking cheerleaders. I'll take GW's almost innocent pre-teen fear of women in miniature to other companies' exploitative teenage horndog approach.
A while back, several famous woman-gamers had a panel discussion talking about the state of female characters in gaming (sorry, I don't remember the event, just that Kathleen Devere was on the panel.) And the thing that I kept seeing with that discussion is that men tend to be more uncomfortable with overly-sexified female characters than many women are. Which makes sense, because overly-sexified characters are a way of marketing to men, and it implies a quite insulting notion of what the marketing department thinks is sufficient to get men's money. Women on the other hand (at least the women on the panel) don't tend to care if female characters are over-sexified as long as the characters are cool. The SoB are silly, but you could imagine someone thinking they're cool. I have trouble imagining anyone who thinks the WGF Amazons represent cool women. So yeah, GW could do better, but judging by many of their competitors, they could do a lot worse.
[/overthink]
Gonna have to disagree with you on a couple points. Regarding the SOB being ridiculous with the whole nun concept, i would view them to something similar as warrior monks, is it wierd that a pipe organ shoots missiles? Sure but we're talking 40k here where orks are fungus. I find GW to be pretty consistent with there sculpts of breasts the only models that i can think of that are really over the top were the DE slaves, but breasts aside i thought the entire model(s) were bad sculpts of women. I do agree with the notion that males are more uncomfortable than females when dealing with oversexed female minis, i think men/boys tend to overthink the whole notion of busty women sculpts than women. WGF amazon minis are just bad looking period, not sure i see them as cheerleaders.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Her alternative male superhero looks like a young Marlon Brando in BDSM drag. I'm not a woman, but I can say with fair certainty that women do not want that. If male superheroes were crafted to be ideals for women, they would probably look like metrosexual hipster stick people with lots of money and no masculine assertiveness.
While you are correct on that first point, that picture made me laugh so much; assuming most women do not go for masculine assertiveness is definately waaaaaay off!
You know there are a city full of ST nerds that'd totally hit that!!
Sidstyler wrote:I'll second (or third...or fourth at this point, I dunno) that Lelith is one of the best female models GW has ever done, if not the best. But then again I'm not sure what that says about us seeing as how she's still half-naked.
You forget that Lileth chooses to be half naked. You can hardly blame the sculptors for that! And the notion of heroic scale bewbs makes me lol. Hard.
Sidstyler wrote:I don't really have a problem with the wyches either, I still think they're awesome and miles above the old ones (buh...), but I have to agree with the other complaints, maybe they are just a tad androgynous and maybe they could have toned down their arms just a little bit. I never noticed how large their chests were though, guess I never paid much attention. So I'll say that at least, the plastic wyches are great but they would have been so much better if they were more like Lelith...but then again maybe that was intentional, since the regular wyches are all roided out and high on drugs while they make a point in the fluff that Lelith doesn't use them at all.
I know I brought that point to the table initially, but remember I too disclaimed that I like the line before I started critiquing it. The entire reason they did all that big muscle bizness is because they wanted all of the interchangability between not only the male and female models, but also between all of their different plastic kits in the line. Part-swap kung fu, they haz it! Realistic scaling, anatomalogical correctness, sexual dimorphism (means males and females are different sizes)...not so much.
But hey it's a minature company. A wargame, and a high quality one at that. And they get better and better as the years go by. Wanna see realistic scaling, anatomalogical correctness, and sexual dimorphism? Go to a club! (but leave your hobby knives at home)
Sidstyler wrote:I'll second (or third...or fourth at this point, I dunno) that Lelith is one of the best female models GW has ever done, if not the best. But then again I'm not sure what that says about us seeing as how she's still half-naked.
You forget that Lileth chooses to be half naked. You can hardly blame the sculptors for that! And the notion of heroic scale bewbs makes me lol. Hard.
Lelith chooses to be half-naked because the writers wrote her that way.
Funniest thing, she's wearing LESS than she used to(no more mask, feet coverings, or right arm gauntlet).
Platuan4th wrote:
Lelith chooses to be half-naked because the writers wrote her that way.
Funniest thing, she's wearing LESS than she used to(no more mask, feet coverings, or right arm gauntlet).
I like that sculpt, I really do. But every 3rd or 4th time I look at it, she reminds me of like a feral halfling (3rd/4th ed D&D, not Tolkien hobbit). Like maybe she's going to kill you for taking the last piece of cake. I Lol.
You know what just hit me? What happened to Kruellah the Vile? Ya know that would have been an epic resculpt.
misfit wrote: It could be worse you know, the day GW brings out a mini with camel toe then i'll do a face palm.
It's a good thing you've never bought Kruegllah!
To be fair, the official GW scheme had her wearing a body suit every time. It was only fans that painted her near nude because every single one of them thought that they were being clever.
MikeMcSomething wrote:This thread is hilarious because it's purpose seems to be to gather people that want to lament GW's focus on chest size, and instead instead of noticing the obvious anatomical errors everyone is just talking about how big the chests are.
Both previous to, and subsequent to, your posts, a great deal of posters pointed out that GWS are poor at proportions in general.
My point is the proportions are not the real problem we're seeing - the wyches, for example, are not sculpted right for any size of breast - saying "Make them smaller, we're all not drooling 12-year olds!" ignores the fact that they wouldn't look any better. Lelith actually *does* have a large bust, it's just correctly modelled for her pose (arms stretched out) and her extremely tight "shirt"
This is why the thread is hilarious - the backlash from ''big chest bad!" is "small chest more realistic therefore good!" which means everyone is still paying attention to the wrong attributes of the model - size. If the wyches all had D-cups but they actually *looked* like tightly-packed D cups (like the new Lelith does) people wouldn't be complaining, even if all the elves looked like they could be Dolly Parton's space-sister.
The current Wyches are wearing tight-fitting space-leather shirts, but for their chest to look the way the sculpt does, they would have to be wearing some sort of bizarre breastplate over their solar plexus but under their skintight suits that pushes everything outward towards the bottom of the ribs while still pushing forward at the same time - like a couple cones with a brace. It makes no sense at any size.
Valkyrie wrote:An experience of GW's interaction with the opposite sex I had was a few weeks ago: I had stopped into a GW to have a look around when my friend and his girlfriend walked in. He's a bit of a fan but his girlfriend doesn't have anything to do with it. Anyway, we're looking through and a few guys are just staring at his girlfriend, and staff member come over offering a painting lessons, as they do, but my mates gf looks a bit uneasy and refuses. The staff member then goes into the back then returns immediatly with a pot of Tentacle Pink. She then decides to have a painting lesson.Nevertheless, my mate and I just give him a weird look as he then proceeds to give her an excruciatingly long painting lesson.
For those who don't know, GW have stopped producing and selling Tentacle Pink for about 5 years, yet they somehow had a pot in pristine condition almost as if they use pink paints to attract female hobbyists.
While I was googling 'Varnish + Games Workshop'. I came across an amusing tutorial on girly site about Nail Polish. Curious as to why they were talking about Games Workshop I skimmed through. Here is what is said...
What you need:
Apart from nail varnish, of course!
* A cocktail stick or match stick (don't use the striking end!) or small paint brush for drawing the designs. Games Workshop sell thin brushes which are designed for intricate detail, so they're perfect. Just be careful, not many girls go to Games Workshop, so (if you are a girl of course) expect to be treated like a novelty and have to fend off questions about what you are painting and whether or not you'd like to be in their painting competition. * Some tweezers, for placing designs onto your nails.
* Acetone-free nail varnish remover is kinder to your nails, although it smells really bad.
* Cotton buds are best for cleaning up.
* Clear nail varnish: if you have loads of money, then by all means be taken in by the whole 'base varnish' 'top varnish' thing that cosmetic companies pull. At the end of the day, a layer of clear nail varnish underneath the colour will stop it from staining your nails, and a layer over the top of your design will protect it and make it last longer.
How come I never get asked if I want to enter a painting competition?
Smacks wrote:
While I was googling 'Varnish + Games Workshop'. I came across an amusing tutorial on girly site about Nail Polish. Curious as to why they were talking about Games Workshop I skimmed through. Here is what is said...
What you need:
Apart from nail varnish, of course!
* A cocktail stick or match stick (don't use the striking end!) or small paint brush for drawing the designs. Games Workshop sell thin brushes which are designed for intricate detail, so they're perfect. Just be careful, not many girls go to Games Workshop, so (if you are a girl of course) expect to be treated like a novelty and have to fend off questions about what you are painting and whether or not you'd like to be in their painting competition. * Some tweezers, for placing designs onto your nails.
* Acetone-free nail varnish remover is kinder to your nails, although it smells really bad.
* Cotton buds are best for cleaning up.
* Clear nail varnish: if you have loads of money, then by all means be taken in by the whole 'base varnish' 'top varnish' thing that cosmetic companies pull. At the end of the day, a layer of clear nail varnish underneath the colour will stop it from staining your nails, and a layer over the top of your design will protect it and make it last longer.
How come I never get asked if I want to enter a painting competition?
That Miss makes me laugh my ass off (no mean feat). Lolololol!! I've seen that too! It's a gazelle surrounded by a bunch of nerdy, inept lions that don't know how to eat!
Lion1 "What's this?!?"
Lion2 "Food"
Lion1 "How do we eat it?"
Lion2 "I don't know. It's not like the vending machine."
Rayvon wrote:No boobs ?
I don't know if that's the case. Vaginas confuse gamers.
misfit wrote:
It could be worse you know, the day GW brings out a mini with camel toe then i'll do a face palm.
It's a good thing you've never bought Kruegllah!
Whaaat! Never saw this model. Wow a borat mankini thats pretty lame. Funny but lame. Although i still don't quite see a camel toe, just a think piece of fabric.
Everywere you go, all the media you are exposed. In this case all the "models" you see of the female human. All of them are like that, to make us look twice or whatever reason there may be. Now that I think about it, why do they portray women like that?
Delrohir.
misfit wrote:
It could be worse you know, the day GW brings out a mini with camel toe then i'll do a face palm.
It's a good thing you've never bought Kruegllah!
Whaaat! Never saw this model. Wow a borat mankini thats pretty lame. Funny but lame. Although i still don't quite see a camel toe, just a think piece of fabric.
Heh heh, I've got a copy of her from 3rd edition that I never got around painting. I'll try and get pics when I can to show you the horror of what Gary sculpted underneath the model.
misfit wrote:
It could be worse you know, the day GW brings out a mini with camel toe then i'll do a face palm.
It's a good thing you've never bought Kruegllah!
Whaaat! Never saw this model. Wow a borat mankini thats pretty lame. Funny but lame. Although i still don't quite see a camel toe, just a think piece of fabric.
Heh heh, I've got a copy of her from 3rd edition that I never got around painting. I'll try and get pics when I can to show you the horror of what Gary sculpted underneath the model.
Well at least GW painted her originally wearing a bodysuit with the mankini overtop. Thats something at least.
MikeMcSomething wrote:
Edit - or stop posting offtopic random nudes
Just wait until we get into Reaper minis and their Furries.
@Monster Rain: I'll never forgive you for that picture on page 2. That is something I cannot 'un-know' now. I will see them in my nightmares. And one day I will come for you.
thenoobbomb wrote:What do you think about how GWS models their female minis?
All except SoB in power armor have, well, big bewbs, IMHO. (wyches for instance)
puma713 wrote:@Monster Rain: I'll never forgive you for that picture on page 2. That is something I cannot 'un-know' now. I will see them in my nightmares. And one day I will come for you.
I once googled "Space Ninjas" and that's what popped up in the images.
Sidstyler wrote: But then again I'm not sure what that says about us seeing as how she's still half-naked.
I find that appropriate for the hyper-sexual Dark Eldar. If they theme Sisters the same way, I'd be displeased.
Smacks wrote:
What you need:
Apart from nail varnish, of course!
* A cocktail stick or match stick (don't use the striking end!) or small paint brush for drawing the designs. Games Workshop sell thin brushes which are designed for intricate detail, so they're perfect. Just be careful, not many girls go to Games Workshop, so (if you are a girl of course) expect to be treated like a novelty and have to fend off questions about what you are painting and whether or not you'd like to be in their painting competition. * Some tweezers, for placing designs onto your nails.
* Acetone-free nail varnish remover is kinder to your nails, although it smells really bad.
* Cotton buds are best for cleaning up.
* Clear nail varnish: if you have loads of money, then by all means be taken in by the whole 'base varnish' 'top varnish' thing that cosmetic companies pull. At the end of the day, a layer of clear nail varnish underneath the colour will stop it from staining your nails, and a layer over the top of your design will protect it and make it last longer.
In defense of GWS, their aggressive redshirts are likely to hassle/greet you just as equally if you are a man, in my experience. On my only visit to the Chicago Bunker, I was asked questions by the staff the whole time I was there - what armies do you paint, etc etc.
Ouze wrote:In defense of GWS, their aggressive redshirts are likely to hassle/greet you just as equally if you are a man, in my experience. On my only visit to the Chicago Bunker, I was asked questions by the staff the whole time I was there - what armies do you paint, etc etc.
Yeah that's true. One time I went in there to grab a pot of paint. Then when I tried to pay, the guy scanned my paint, and then held it hostage for about 15 mins without giving it back, while asking me questions about my army. It was a bit weird. Kind of like something Darren Brown might do, only not subtle at all.
I didn't actually mind, obviously I like talking about miniatures (that's why I come here). But I did half start to wonder if it was some kind of joke, or if he had a bet on with the other store guy as to how long he could keep me there before I demanded my paint back. Maybe he was just lonely, or really didn't want to be left alone with the other store guy (the shop was pretty empty).
Now I think about it... maybe it was a plea for help. Perhaps while holding onto my paint and asking about my army, he was also trying to tap out the the message "GET HELP, CALL THE POLICE" in Morse code with his eye lid. Or maybe "HELP! I WORK IN GAMES WORKSHOP". Unfortunately I don't know Morse code so it will forever remain a mystery.
I feel like a broken record whenever I say this, but...
We all know I'll be the first in line to kick GW, especially when they're down, but I really don't think this is an issue specific to GW. I think all miniature companies do it.
The people at the GW store nearest me(before it closed) were always very nice and seemed to know when to be quiet and when to talk, but then again, one of them was fired for taking a ton of models...
Guys, we're focusing on the wrong part of the model here. The boobs are fine; they're not the focal point of the model. Its not what draws me to the model.
The problem i find with most female models are their faces. Manly manly faces... :(
gicks30 wrote:Guys, we're focusing on the wrong part of the model here. The boobs are fine; they're not the focal point of the model. Its not what draws me to the model.
The problem i find with most female models are their faces. Manly manly faces... :(
It also comes down to painting them properly.
Many painters do not grasp the concept of smooth variations, instead painting in extreme contrasts. This leads to a masculine, hard edge to the features.
You both bring up fair points. But I guess I just prefer my miniatures to be easily identified as women without having to look for boobs
I do agree that a good paintjob does help to alleviate the problem somewhat esp. when painting the eyes and cheeks imo.
Of course, the sculpts require work. However, even a masculine sculpt can be softened with a good paintjob. I refer of course to the SoB models and some of the Dark Eldar Wyches.
gicks30 wrote:Guys, we're focusing on the wrong part of the model here. The boobs are fine; they're not the focal point of the model. Its not what draws me to the model.
The problem i find with most female models are their faces. Manly manly faces... :(
It also comes down to painting them properly.
Many painters do not grasp the concept of smooth variations, instead painting in extreme contrasts. This leads to a masculine, hard edge to the features.
On that note, this could be helpful if people are interested in painting non-manly faces.
Noisy_Marine wrote:What's wrong with huge boobs? I love 'em!
Remember, its not only men who play warhammer, us girls like warhammer, too. Imagine if all the men in warhammer were shirtless, had six-packs, gorgeous hair and eyes and massive muscles. I dont think you'll be very happy about that, eh?
Noisy_Marine wrote:What's wrong with huge boobs? I love 'em!
Remember, its not only men who play warhammer, us girls like warhammer, too. Imagine if all the men in warhammer were shirtless, had six-packs, gorgeous hair and eyes and massive muscles. I dont think you'll be very happy about that, eh?
Only because skin is a bitch to paint well compared to shirts and armor. I like to paint women who play warhammer.
Layla wrote:Imagine if all the men in warhammer were shirtless, had six-packs, gorgeous hair and eyes and massive muscles. I dont think you'll be very happy about that, eh?
skin is a pain to paint, thats why i'm marines. and they probably are rather buff under that metallic exterior, catachan may be the way you want to go if you want muscles
Layla wrote:
Remember, its not only men who play warhammer, us girls like warhammer, too. Imagine if all the men in warhammer were shirtless, had six-packs, gorgeous hair and eyes and massive muscles. I don't think you'll be very happy about that, eh?
To be fair though, the overwhelming male aesthetic in Warhammer is like that. Space Marines are generally rendered in miniature form in armour, however if you look at the artwork and read the fiction they are oft portrayed as rippling muscled specimens of macho perfection. Catachans all look like Rambo, the Sanguinor, Sanguinary Guard etc are all modelled with six packs (and superfluous nipples too it seems).
Warhammer is much the same too, although the 'Hollywood'-esque aesthetic is somewhat downplayed. Essentially, GW plays out the fantasies of 10 year old boys and teenagers. And to be honest, what teenager/youth doesn't like feminine women and Schwarzenegger type male figures?
Lol. Why do i have a feeling 4chan has made a pic of this?
But anyway, when ever i see a girl in a hobby store the entire store freezes.
I start laughing. Of course I stopped going to gw to boycott stuff.
dajobe wrote:i remember i played a chick once, it was sweet, lol
I think its hilarious more girls play video games than you think. I have played an entire star craft 2 game (they were using mics. 4 v 4 crazyness.) and both sides were girl teams except for me the only guy in the entire game rofl.
Tentacle pink i still have like 5 of those in my basement lol.
dajobe wrote:GW is making a statement saying that bodily image doesn't have an impact on how many things you can kill! Can't you all see!
They may even be implying that they could be used as weapons instead of just a draw to male gamers! GW is actually thinking far outside the box here, folks.
