Don't you think it would have saved rather a lot of messing about if he'd sat down with the primarchs and just had a good old 'Dad discussion' about stuff?

"Ok, so you know how you guys are so frikkin powerful? Well It's a long story but basically I had to make a deal with these infinitely powerful immaterial entities to help create you....

Look guys, you know that purple crap we sail our ships through? Well it really wants to eat us......

You gotta watch out for these rogue psyker dudes, if you see anyone with crazy eyes and a headache, shoot them in the face.......

Eight pointed stars are bad. Shoot people who have them in the face as well.........

Oh, by the way, these immaterial beings are very pissed off and will try to make you betray me. This would probably result in a major kerfuffle. Now you're aware you can resist.....

Ok, you know how there are birds and bees? Well bees carry pollen into flowers and.... um... actually it doesn't matter lads......

The reason I'm going to earth? Well you're going to go kill stuff for me while I'm going to juice up this sweet WarpThrone 5000 I found buried in the desert. It controls this stargate I found, and we need to get it started to keep these immaterial beings and Macgyver out of our own particular phsyical universe. Thanks for asking though, I don't want you to think I've abandoned you all and I don't care, that would be embarrassing and could cause you all sorts of psychological damage......"

So you see, the Emperor may have been all-powerful, but he needed a parenting support class or two.

Yes, this is rather the point of the setting. Thank you for joining the fandom of 40k.

Letting your son worship you for a millenia and then blowing up his temple and humiliating him is definitley not good parenting.

Horus needed a hug.... and a cookie.

Bet the emperor never gave any of his sons a christmas gift. I'd rebel too.

Bah, everyone knows marines rebelled against the emporer for vacation days. I mean for gods sake they don't even get weekends off.

Wait, are we counting only earth Christmas, or every Christmas on every planet?

Perhaps he was trying to be too good a Father? Keeping 18 Sons happy cannot be an easy thing to do.

He kept Lorgar happy by letting him worship him on the sly until Guilliman said "His army is nearly as big as mine but he doesn't use it".

He kept Magnus happy by letting him have his dabblings with Magic until Mortarion, Corax and Russ said "He's a witch, burn it!"

You can't ignore four of your sons to keep two happy, despite of how much you might love the others.

And Horus, well Horus, the Emperor trusts him above all others, he puts the reunification of the Imperium in his hands as his most beloved son and what does he do, throw a hissy fit. Sure the Emperor could've told him what he was doing on Terra. But the Emperor needed Horus to do what he did best, wage war.

A sit down chat with them about the venomous powers of Chaos probably wouldn't have been a terrible idea... especially considering Lorgar decided to start worshiping them.

daedalus-templarius wrote:A sit down chat with them about the venomous powers of Chaos probably wouldn't have been a terrible idea... especially considering Lorgar decided to start worshiping them.

Well he kinda did, he wasn't lying when he warned them off the dangers of the warp or the entities that reside within it. He didn't lie when he said there are no Gods. Lorgar needed to have something to worship so the Chaos Powers go to him and he sets them up on the altar.

I think that the emporer should have killed Lorgar, he was emo and pissed off all the time, and I dont think he would have been missed, and then just told all of the other primarchs that lorgar sucked and they didnt need him or the Word Bearers

dajobe wrote:I think that the emporer should have killed Lorgar, he was emo and pissed off all the time, and I dont think he would have been missed, and then just told all of the other primarchs that lorgar sucked and they didnt need him or the Word Bearers

Letting Lorgar live after Monarchia is actually one we can't pin on the Emperor. The rest of the Primarchs voted that they did not want to lose another brother. Implied there is that the Emperor's idea was to kill him.

The Emperor was mighty figure, and a great leader, but he was a dick. He wanted to kill Lorgar? Now I dislike the character.

dang, my opinion is opposite of inproxtaco, now i like emporer more and think primarchs=wusses, of course, even if my bro was evil, probably wouldn't kill him, lol

Opposite opinion to me? Woot!? I can't let this pass!

terranarc wrote:Bet the emperor never gave any of his sons a christmas gift. I'd rebel too.

Unionise!

purplefood wrote:

terranarc wrote:Bet the emperor never gave any of his sons a christmas gift. I'd rebel too.

Unionise!

Exactly!

And then go on strike demanding a better health care coverage for your SM!

What more could you give them? They barely feel pain, are extremely resilient, and are functionally immortal. I for one would like better dental care for them, and better working conditions.

Yes, I think disclosure would have been best. Yes, knowing of Chaos can lead to corruption, but it is extremely naive to think that in the process of conquering the galaxy they wouldn't come across some hint of Chaos.

If he had warned them of the dangers, when encountering Chaos for the first time their thoughts would be, "Oh yeah, these are those deceptive and manipulative forces dear old dad warned me about."

Instead, when they finally encounter the Ruinous Powers (or their agents, as the case may be), their thoughts are, "Holy crap! Dad lied to us about this incredibly important thing! What else has he been lying to us about? What has he been plotting behind our backs as we're kept in the dark as to his clandestine activities on Terra?"

Their ignorance opened the door for the half-truths and mis-directions of the Ruinous Powers to gain purchase and fester in to outright betrayal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dajobe wrote:dang, my opinion is opposite of inproxtaco, now i like emporer more and think primarchs=wusses, of course, even if my bro was evil, probably wouldn't kill him, lol

It's EmpErOr, not EmpOrEr.

Well he did tell them enough about Chaos for them to know it was bad.

Nope, that's wrong. He told them literally nothing about Chaos.

you are correct omegus, i will spell emperor correct from now on, and even if he had told em, there are always going to be some bad apples(lorgar and Angron, im talking to you!)

There should have been no bad-apples. They became that way because The Emperor didn't nourish them right.

Durza wrote:Well he did tell them enough about Chaos for them to know it was bad.

No, he told them there is absolutely nothing in the warp, and any crazy monsters that you do see are just xenos trickery to be ignored.

The simple fact of the matter is that, with the exception of the Khan, the Emperor did not buy any of the Primarchs a Pony, and so the galaxy burned.

He bought him a bike.

that is favoritism...many act out violently as a result, as we have all seen here...darn kids

Maybe the Emperor should not have had a son who wanted to deify him. Isn't that what started the whole mess?

Nope. It started when he f**ed over Lorgar.

Shadelkan wrote:Wait, are we counting only earth Christmas, or every Christmas on every planet?

I presume its Space Christmas, happens once a year, in space.


I never read the horus heresy, but I thought that because they were running out of Xenos too krump, they decided too krump each other.

I an extremely simplistic way, that would be correct. It started because Lorgar decided to find a new God, but there were many other contributing factors, such a discontent with how The Imperium was to be governed, by pencil pushers rather than those who did all the hard work.

dajobe wrote:I think that the emporer should have killed Lorgar, he was emo and pissed off all the time, and I dont think he would have been missed, and then just told all of the other primarchs that lorgar sucked and they didnt need him or the Word Bearers

Lorgar was the most faithful of the primarchs and wished to be more than a killing machine. His father than destroyed his greatest achievement and humiliated him in front of his other brother. I'd be a little emotional as well.

that is a good point, but being a demi god, should have moved on

He failed to cut off the crust on their DOOMBREAD sandwiches, so of course they rebelled.

if my dad didnt cut off the crust of my sandwhiches id rebel too! This almost makes me side against the emperor, but ive fought for him for so long...i just cant...change, im just a stick in the mud

In The Lightning Tower audiobook Dorn and Malcador are having a discussion about why they traitors turned and Dorn says he wish he knew why, Malcadors response is basically 'I don't think even the Emperor fully understands chaos, because to understand chaos is to know madness, it is better not to know and maintain your sanity.'
According to Malcador the Emperor knows he doesn't understand everything about chaos but knows that its better that way.

dajobe wrote:that is a good point, but being a demi god, should have moved on

Demi gods are very emotional since they are half human and growup around humans. Having a human half means that they are capable of having human flaws.

Lorgar also had nightmares all his life since his pod took the worst beating of any of them, having spent the longest time in the warp being humped by various daemons trying to get inside. Then he kept an utterly corrupt human around as a father figure, even elevating him to be captain of the 1st company.

Yeah I belive the people around him did more damage to the imperium than he did. He was more or less just a puppet to their ambitions. He always seemed so hesitant to turn from his father. Had he of had more "trustworthy" confidants instead of two power mad egotists whispering venom in his ears. It is my belief that he would have never been led down the path of chaos had he never met those 2

You've put me in mind to rewatch "The Great Santini."

Omegus wrote:Lorgar also had nightmares all his life since his pod took the worst beating of any of them, having spent the longest time in the warp being humped by various daemons trying to get inside. Then he kept an utterly corrupt human around as a father figure, even elevating him to be captain of the 1st company.

If you mean beating as in "the Chaos Gods took care of him in warp" then you would be correct.

Lorgar appears to be a pretty poor judge of character agreed Also very easily led and a bit naive.

He wasn't the only one who had visions, Night Haunter and Sanguinius both. Not sure about the others though.

He did let them have fun go and shot things and get shot at is basicly like paintballing but with live rounds and swords lol.

I understand maybe not telling them about Chaos, because some like magnus or lorgar would most likely disobey, out of curiosity

But not telling them about the Webway gate? WHY????
Why keep that secret from your military generals who could would have benefited from knowing about it and able to make plans ahead of time to prepare for it

Instead what you get as a result is Chaos is able to lie to Horus about what hes actually doing at Terra
It makes no logical sense at all

Was he just planning to say hey guys, I fixed this thing that should kill the Eldar for good, now start waging war on them.
By not telling them, even if he had got it working it wouldve taken months or years to get together a campaign to put together a attack, which could've been prepared by the time he fixed it instead

jonolikespie wrote:In The Lightning Tower audiobook Dorn and Malcador are having a discussion about why they traitors turned and Dorn says he wish he knew why, Malcadors response is basically 'I don't think even the Emperor fully understands chaos, because to understand chaos is to know madness, it is better not to know and maintain your sanity.'
According to Malcador the Emperor knows he doesn't understand everything about chaos but knows that its better that way.

The very nature of Chaos makes it impossible to understand.

Asuron wrote:
But not telling them about the Webway gate? WHY????
Why keep that secret from your military generas who could would have benefited from knowing about it and able to make plans ahead of time to prepare for it

Instead what you get as a result is Chaos is able to lie to Horus about what hes actually doing at Terra
It makes no logical sense at all

Was he just planning to say hey guys, I fixed this thing that should kill the Eldar for good, now start waging war on them.
By not telling them, even if he had got it working it wouldve taken months or years to get together a campaign to put together a attack, which could've been prepared by the time he fixed it instead

Yeah, it might have turned out better.

But then again your sons are off on Crusades trying to reunite the Imperium the way you told them to do it, in Ships, then you make a new discovery that might make Warp travel obsolete. I think there would be a lot of angry people and some of his sons more redundant than others.

He possibly also didn't want Horus putting his oar in and trying to help, when he should have been uniting the Imperium.

Horus would have understood, being the only of the Primarchs that was like a real son.

iproxtaco wrote:Horus would have understood, being the only of the Primarchs that was like a real son.

Maybe, maybe not.

There's no maybe. Magnus would have been a bother though.

There is a maybe, if being the favorite son wasn't enough then what would be. All the Primarchs knew that he was the favorite, even Horus knew he was the favorite. Yet despite of all he and the Emperor did together he still stabbed his father in the back.

Its because Horus was a loser!

Remember Horus is like the kid from Pet Cemetery (or the reanimated Zaknafein)... he's resurrected by evil in an evil way to do evil things.

So for him to have all these twisted thoughts and carry through with them after the one bad choice, listening to the trusted advisor that claims to be in your dreams to save your soul, really isn't a reflection of his character... its a reflection on how thoroughly Chaos had used Lorgar (the broken little tool) to screw over the galaxy.

To me, the complete mishandling of Magnus and Lorgar are the two big mistakes that the Big E made (that and not killing Angron and Conrad on first introduction)... and a good chunk of those errors lies on Malcador (who if not for his final sacrifice, I would suspect as being an agent of Chaos).

If he had made Lorgar the PR chief of for the Imperium (after a primer on Chaos) and Magnus the sue chef for the Imperial Webway, well its an entirely different game.

I should also note that Lorgar and Magnus both had great ideas that were embraced by Guilliman and other primarchs after the heresy (Chaplains and Librarians).

iproxtaco wrote:There's no maybe. Magnus would have been a bother though.

Bother? Magnus is the only one who could even understand what the Emperor was doing, the webway was being build for him to run. He was among the most loyal of sons, to the point of being ready to commit suicide along with his whole Legion, but was finally forced to action by the Space Wolves' savagery and his sons desperate entrieties.

Omegus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:There's no maybe. Magnus would have been a bother though.

Bother? Magnus is the only one who could even understand what the Emperor was doing, the webway was being build for him to run. He was among the most loyal of sons, to the point of being ready to commit suicide along with his whole Legion, but was finally forced to action by the Space Wolves' savagery and his sons desperate entrieties.

Agreed... even the Chaos books strongly hint at him still being loyal to the Big E, just not the Imperium of Man... still hates the SW though

yeah, i really dont like SW, because thousand sons are my favorite chaos chapter, to the point where i might buy a squad even though i definitely have no intention of ever playing chaos

Lobukia wrote:Agreed... even the Chaos books strongly hint at him still being loyal to the Big E, just not the Imperium of Man... still hates the SW though

I don't know about that... he definitely has some regrets, but Chaos has managed to twist a lot of his thoughts into feelings of betrayal. "My father kept me in the dark. My father didn't believe me. My father sent a stupid donkey-cave to kill me. My father intended me to be a shrunken corpse in a golden box while he ascended to godhood."

Magnus is a broken man. The future of the Thousand Sons is squarely in the hands of Ahriman. He will achieve justice for the betrayed Thousand Sons. I have high hopes for Atlas Infernal.

Omegus wrote: Magnus ...finally forced to action by the Space Wolves' savagery and his sons desperate entrieties.

His motivation was lack of conviction. He tried to make the right choice, then gave up on it half way through. It had nothing to do with any change taking place on the battlefield. He knowingly committed his legion and planet to utter annihilation long before the battle took place. He just didn't have the stomach for it when his death was actually on the line.

It wasn't his death, it was Ahriman's entreaties that finally got him moving. And then he proceeded to kick Russ' ass until Russ got a lucky glancing blow on Magnus' eye in a masterful display of flailing.

But I won't disagree that lack of conviction is his biggest character flaw. We saw the same thing in Battle of the Fang... he would lose his confidence or certainty and would be driven back by regular Astartes, then would remember who the hell he is and what he's trying to do and proceed to annihilate everything effortlessly.

If my dad was the most powerful human ever to have existed I think I would just shut up and do what he says.

HE should of had daughters, they are alot more loyal plus the worst thing they could do is sleep with other men, or each other >.>

Thousand Sons>Space wolves
Magnus>Leman Russ
this is one of the few times i will speak against the imperium

No way, then you woud have them dressing slutty and sneaking out late at night to jump on khornes motorcycle while the emperor runs down the porch stairs with a shotgun

dajobe wrote:Thousand Sons>Space wolves
Magnus>Leman Russ
this is one of the few times i will speak against the imperium

Russ practically begged Magnus to give up quietly, he never begs.

dajobe wrote:Thousand Sons>Space wolves
Magnus>Leman Russ
this is one of the few times i will speak against the imperium

Ain't that the truth.

Ashryu wrote:If my dad was the most powerful human ever to have existed I think I would just shut up and do what he says.

Meh, the Emperor consistently underestimated what Magnus was capable of. When he "revealed" astral projection to him, Magnus had already been doing it for decades. Then the Emperor consistently displayed himself as close-minded and in denial of the wonders of the Great Ocean. Combine that with being by far the most intelligent of the Primarchs, and Magnus at least had if not an excuse then a reason for his arrogance. Combine that with the gene-flaw of impatience, and you have a recipe for disaster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Nobody wrote:
Russ practically begged Magnus to give up quietly, he never begs.

Of course, Magnus never heard this since what the Wolves thought was Magnus' spy really belonged to Horus/Chaos.

If he did hear his plea, he may have well answered and the conflict of Prospero would have gone very differently.

Omegus wrote:
Meh, the Emperor consistently underestimated what Magnus was capable of. When he "revealed" astral projection to him, Magnus had already been doing it for decades. Then the Emperor consistently displayed himself as close-minded and in denial of the wonders of the Great Ocean. Combine that with being by far the most intelligent of the Primarchs, and Magnus at least had if not an excuse then a reason for his arrogance. Combine that with the gene-flaw of impatience, and you have a recipe for disaster.

But only the Emperor recognised Magnus when he entered the Palace in astral form and the spell was the first time he had done it, even Ahriman commented on the power required, and once again Magnus thought he knew best. The Emperor was more taken aback by the blatant disregard for his orders.

The Emperor knew what the risks of the Warp were more than anyone else, Magnus was arrogant and deluded to think that he knew better than the Emperor. Look where that got him.

Omegus wrote:If he did hear his plea, he may have well answered and the conflict of Prospero would have gone very differently.

Magnus did have something or someone in place within the Wolves though.

Magnus was screwed the moment he did the deal with chaos to save his legion from the change. Tzeentch then just pulled his strings all the way. Stabbing Magnus in back all the way breaking each deal he made while tempting him further down the road with each step. Magnus was still desperately fighting it in BOTF.

Tzeentch never broke the deal, he just delayed cashing in his cheque.

Magnus thought he was the most powerful being in the warp, how wrong was he.

the word kerfuffle made me rofl

Pilau Rice wrote:

Omegus wrote:
Meh, the Emperor consistently underestimated what Magnus was capable of. When he "revealed" astral projection to him, Magnus had already been doing it for decades. Then the Emperor consistently displayed himself as close-minded and in denial of the wonders of the Great Ocean. Combine that with being by far the most intelligent of the Primarchs, and Magnus at least had if not an excuse then a reason for his arrogance. Combine that with the gene-flaw of impatience, and you have a recipe for disaster.

But only the Emperor recognised Magnus when he entered the Palace in astral form and the spell was the first time he had done it, even Ahriman commented on the power required, and once again Magnus thought he knew best. The Emperor was more taken aback by the blatant disregard for his orders.

The Emperor knew what the risks of the Warp were more than anyone else, Magnus was arrogant and deluded to think that he knew better than the Emperor. Look where that got him.

Omegus wrote:If he did hear his plea, he may have well answered and the conflict of Prospero would have gone very differently.

Magnus did have something or someone in place within the Wolves though.

He did but I don't think we ever found that out did we? Or was there something in Prospero Burns I missed, I'm not sure the book wasn't nearly as engaging as A Thousand Sons was
Besides if he did, it would be similar to how Wyrmdrake was a spy of the wolves as well
Its a bit hypocritical of Russ isnt it
But then again his whole stance on psykers was hypocritical

Would it have killed Russ to have made an announcement when he was on Prospero before he started destroying things?
Bleh the whole thing left a sour taste in my mouth honestly, the sheer hypocrisy of the Wolves was just astonishing
Right down to the cheap, incredibly lucky shot against Magnus during their duel, he had Russ on the ropes, the stupidity on the Wolves end just left a bad taste

Asuron wrote:
He did but I don't think we ever found that out did we?

Nope, it was mentioned in a conversation between Ahriman and Magnus, I think, in A Thousand Sons before Nikaea.

Asuron wrote:
Would it have killed Russ to have made an announcement when he was on Prospero before he started destroying things?
Bleh the whole thing left a sour taste in my mouth honestly, the sheer hypocrisy of the Wolves was just astonishing
Right down to the cheap, incredibly lucky shot against Magnus during their duel, he had Russ on the ropes

And let the Thousand Sons blast them from space? Maybe if Horus had not have said that the Emperors orders had changed Russ might have been open to talks with Magnus beforehand, but that conversation changed everything. Why it wasn't mentioned in Prospero Burns I don't know though.

Russ is a brawler, if Magnus, the new and improved version with added Daemony goodness don't forget, went into the fight expecting anything less, then fool him.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Asuron wrote:
He did but I don't think we ever found that out did we?

Nope, it was mentioned in a conversation between Ahriman and Magnus, I think, in A Thousand Sons before Nikaea.

Asuron wrote:
Would it have killed Russ to have made an announcement when he was on Prospero before he started destroying things?
Bleh the whole thing left a sour taste in my mouth honestly, the sheer hypocrisy of the Wolves was just astonishing
Right down to the cheap, incredibly lucky shot against Magnus during their duel, he had Russ on the ropes

And let the Thousand Sons blast them from space? Maybe if Horus had not have said that the Emperors orders had changed Russ might have been open to talks with Magnus beforehand, but that conversation changed everything. Why it wasn't mentioned in Prospero Burns I don't know though.

Russ is a brawler, if Magnus, the new and improved version with added Daemony goodness don't forget, went into the fight expecting anything less, then fool him.

Yeah I found that odd as well, I dont know why they skipped that part, I kept looking through the book in case I had somehow missed it, but nope its not there
But then the whole book I didn't find very good to be honest so I'm not suprised

Well Magnus did expect it, hence why he had him on the ropes
Russ just got a really, really, really lucky shot in
In fact if Magnus hadn't opened his world up so they could attack, I don't doubt for a minute the Thousand Sons would have won
Even being taken by complete suprise they caused alot of damage to them

this topic has completely changed from emperor messed up to Russ vs Magnus, its ok though, because i like ripping on russ

Am I the only one who feels bad for Lorgar?

Nope, what happened to him and Magnus, and to Kurze were travesties. It doesn't help though that Demski-Brown made him into a little girl.

iproxtaco wrote:Nope, what happened to him and Magnus, and to Kurze were travesties. It doesn't help though that Demski-Brown made him into a little girl.

And I am on the side that says, BURN HERETICS!

They pretty much bought it all on themselves.

Maybe, just maybe a little a little for Conrad ... but only a tiny bit.

I am normally with Pilau rice, except when it comes to space wolves, always on the opposite side of the arguement as them, plus i think thousand sons look sweet

Pilau Rice wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nope, what happened to him and Magnus, and to Kurze were travesties. It doesn't help though that Demski-Brown made him into a little girl.

And I am on the side that says, BURN HERETICS!

They pretty much bought it all on themselves.

Maybe, just maybe a little a little for Conrad ... but only a tiny bit.

Good job you did burning those Heretics by the way.

Burning hasn't officially commenced yet

I think the traitor primarchs did the right thing, they are so much cooler on the side of Chaos then they were under the Emperors wing.

Ashryu wrote:No way, then you woud have them dressing slutty and sneaking out late at night to jump on khornes motorcycle while the emperor runs down the porch stairs with a shotgun

but think about it! The hersey would never happen because Khorne would be scared of the womens scorn of a primarch and they would bitch and moan and then we would have no war, except both sides completely ignore each other.

But in relatity, The Emperor did fail. but think about it. How hard is it to parent 20 kids?

Yeah, John and Kate cant even deal with 8, a single parent with 20 super powerful super geniuses...thats tough

Asuron wrote:
He did but I don't think we ever found that out did we? Or was there something in Prospero Burns I missed, I'm not sure the book wasn't nearly as engaging as A Thousand Sons was
Besides if he did, it would be similar to how Wyrmdrake was a spy of the wolves as well
Its a bit hypocritical of Russ isnt it
But then again his whole stance on psykers was hypocritical

Would it have killed Russ to have made an announcement when he was on Prospero before he started destroying things?
Bleh the whole thing left a sour taste in my mouth honestly, the sheer hypocrisy of the Wolves was just astonishing
Right down to the cheap, incredibly lucky shot against Magnus during their duel, he had Russ on the ropes, the stupidity on the Wolves end just left a bad taste

Does it still count as hypocrisy when it's driven by abject stupidity? Space Wolves were just really really really really really really really really really really really really dumb. "They is not psychic powerz we is children of the storm lulz!"

They recruited superstitious barbarians, and didn't do anything to educate them further. No indoctrination, no mind-wipes, nothing. The Rout is no different from those guys in the beginning of the book slaughtering women and children "cuz they may haz the magicks in them!" They are just bigger and have better equipment.

And yes, it left a bad taste, but Wyrmdrake's final fate did cleanse the palate a bit. Brought face to face with his own stupidity/hypocrisy and then completely annihilated down to the soul level. Aah, justice.

Asherian Command wrote:
But in relatity, The Emperor did fail. but think about it. How hard is it to parent 20 kids?

20 kids? Pretty hard when they're all taken away from you before they're born. He was trying to parent 20 adults while ruling a galactic empire and trying to break into the Webway. The man had a lot on his mind.

we da humies that luk lik wulvz, we da bestes at choppin and da usin a shoota's-Leman Russ

Ashryu wrote:No way, then you woud have them dressing slutty

Didn't Fulgrim already do this?

Omegus wrote:
Does it still count as hypocrisy when it's driven by abject stupidity? Space Wolves were just really really really really really really really really really really really really dumb. "They is not psychic powerz we is children of the storm lulz!"

They recruited superstitious barbarians, and didn't do anything to educate them further. No indoctrination, no mind-wipes, nothing. The Rout is no different from those guys in the beginning of the book slaughtering women and children "cuz they may haz the magicks in them!" They are just bigger and have better equipment.

To be fair, I didn't see a single wolf get possessed (actually I think there was that one guy but that shouldn't count) but by the end there were tons of TSs succumbing to the flesh change.


Also I was under the impression the thing with Horus changing the orders wasn't mentioned because they retconed it out and Russ was acting solely on the Emperors orders.

I'm not a warp worshiping cultist but I'm just saying the Horus had some good ideas as well.

Obviously I'm not down with enslaving humanity to the dark gods of the warp. Not all of them. But at least Horus got the invasions landing on time.

jonolikespie wrote:

Omegus wrote:
Does it still count as hypocrisy when it's driven by abject stupidity? Space Wolves were just really really really really really really really really really really really really dumb. "They is not psychic powerz we is children of the storm lulz!"

They recruited superstitious barbarians, and didn't do anything to educate them further. No indoctrination, no mind-wipes, nothing. The Rout is no different from those guys in the beginning of the book slaughtering women and children "cuz they may haz the magicks in them!" They are just bigger and have better equipment.

To be fair, I didn't see a single wolf get possessed (actually I think there was that one guy but that shouldn't count) but by the end there were tons of TSs succumbing to the flesh change.


Also I was under the impression the thing with Horus changing the orders wasn't mentioned because they retconed it out and Russ was acting solely on the Emperors orders.

Wasn't there those Wulfen things? They unleashed them towards the end and caught the TS by suprise
Plus the flesh change only happened because Tzeentch decided to call in the deal, meaning that using psychic powers during that point, which the Wolves bloody pushed them to, led to the inevitable mutation

As for the Russ thing, its really weird since in the earlier HH books Horus makes note of knowing where Russ is and hints at changing his mind on the matter with regards to Magnus
Yet we never see this converation in PB

Wulfen is a genetic thing though isn't it, not psychic ?

jonolikespie wrote:Wulfen is a genetic thing though isn't it, not psychic ?

I was under the impression the mutations were as well and that the only reason they happened again was because Tzeentch called in the deal
That using psychic powers only sped it up

Horus: Dad... um I have this special friend. And uh... this special gives me this tingly feeling in the cod piece...

Big E: Hahaha, oh that's perfectly natural,son. What's her name?

Horus: ....Um, Mike.

Big E: ....Get the feth out of my house!

Both The Flesh Change and The Mark of The Wulfen are genetic faults in the geneseed of the respective Legions, meaning that The Space Wolves persecuting The Thousand Sons in part due to seeing The Flesh Change is damn hypocritical.

Oh, thats because space wolves=losers

iproxtaco wrote:Both The Flesh Change and The Mark of The Wulfen are genetic faults in the geneseed of the respective Legions, meaning that The Space Wolves persecuting The Thousand Sons in part due to seeing The Flesh Change is damn hypocritical.

I think it's to show that thousand sons and space wolves are more alike than they think.

Yeah I thought that was the writers intent, but it also makes the Space Wolves look like dicks.

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah I thought that was the writers intent, but it also makes the Space Wolves look like dicks.

Because they are

Well, they're pseudo-Vikings. Vikings were dicks.

Someone in this or a related thread put it best. All the Legions had personality flaws, and the Wolves probably had the most galling. They are ignorant, arrogant, brash and belligerent. Bullies, basically. Or to put it another way, Vikings.

Hey! Vikings were ace, ok! The Space Wolves are pseudo-viking dicks.

Daedricbob wrote:

The reason I'm going to earth? Well you're going to go kill stuff for me while I'm going to juice up this sweet WarpThrone 5000 I found buried in the desert. It controls this stargate I found, and we need to get it started to keep these immaterial beings and Macgyver out of our own particular phsyical universe. Thanks for asking though, I don't want you to think I've abandoned you all and I don't care, that would be embarrassing and could cause you all sorts of psychological damage......"

didnt keep out Justin Beiber. or Jedward.

nothing against vikings or psuedo vikings, i just dont like space wolves, even if they are based on vikings, vikings are cool, i just dont like the space wolf look