This doesn't affect me in the slightest but from their latest news article it appears they will be shipping GW to the ROW and it is legal and within the rules set out by GW?

Anyone know how they've done this and how GW will react?

The only thing I can think of is that they have registered a new business outside of the EU zone or actually opened a shop and warehouse outside the EU?

Anyone else know what is happening?

I hope our ROW brethren can get discounted GW products still!

Please excuse my ignorance, what is ROW?

...Republic of Wales?

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:...Republic of Wales?

Why not just call it Wales? ><

Rest of World - sorry, seemed pretty obvious when using it in the context of Wayland Games and GW orders!

My bad guys ^ ^

I imagine that something had to give, so I guess we will find out soon.

From their Facebook post:

"Hi Guys,
Just a quick note. Firstly we'd like to thank you again for bearing with us during this order spike. As you've seen from some of the photographs we've posted things have been very busy and even a business with our footprint and infrastructure didn't expect for a moment the unprecedented, colossal demand during the last week of May. So we'd like to thank those of you who are waiting for orders to be shipped, once more, for bearing with us whilst we work through the backlog.

In respect of the ROW Category, as every possible resource has been engaged in the processing of orders added to the fact that the means by which we are going to achieve this is exceptionally complicated and requires infrastructure to be established we must apologise for the delays in populating the category. We have a number of issues still to solve which are now in their final stages but we felt it only fair to release a few details of what will be contained within the ROW category and what it will mean to you the ROW consumer. Some of the issues are procedural, some technical and the rest physical.

I will ramble some more then move to a Q and A format as it is better able to answer many of the questions that have been asked over the last few weeks.

We at Wayland would have had to react to the trade terms changes, we as a business would have hoped that a dominant supplier such as GW would have had a grasp of the consequences such a double whammy of terms changes and price rises would have on their business partners of any size. The impact of these changes and especially the surge of orders over the last week of May was beyond our control. We believe that short of closing the store there was nought we could do to reduce the orders we received. In the day to day operations under normal activity we are able to control order volumes relatively easily. In this instance we have had no control at all. All this has occured as we are hard at work readying our new Warehouse and Website launch. So again we would like to apologise to those of you waiting far longer than normal for your orders. As you can tell by the number of times we have posted about it it is of serious concern to us.

Right on with the show. From here on in ROW will be used to represent "Rest of World", our customers outside of the EU, and EEA (European Economic Area).

Q. What will I be able to order.
A. You will be able to order pretty much any product that you can now. Stock allowing.

Q. Will I be able to order new releases?
A. Yes, though shipping might occur a day or two after the official release date.

Q. Will I have to use some third party shipping/broking service?
A. No, your order will be handled completely by Wayland, and we will be fully responsible for getting your order to you as we are now. There is no need for mail forwarding services to be used.

Q. How are you achieving this?
A. Complicated, this is also commercially sensitive. However in the first instance, we will utilise stock that we had on hand prior to the "conditions of sale" changes. We moved the stock when the announcements were made as we had the "plan" quite soon after we were notified. This stock is finite. How we replenish is sensitive, but it is coming.

Q. What will the pricing be?
A. Until we run out of the stock we have on hand, the pricing will be identical as now. Once the replensihment stock has arrived the prices will be slightly higher as there are additional costs involved. But we will continue to offer at least UK RRP with a 10% discount.

Q. When will the categories be active.
A. We had hoped that would be populated right away, however the current backlog and what is now a cramped 5000Sqft warehouse mean that we cannot pouplate the categories (stock check the pre embargo stock) until the backlog is dealt with. It would be innapropriate for us to spend resources doing this until all our customers patiently waiting for their orders have been served. We anticpate 2 weeks, though we will do our very best to reduce this time.

Q. Will we still be able to order Forgeworld and other "Direct Only" products?
A. Yes, we disabled many direct only items over the change weekend but as we become sure of supply they will be re-introduced.

Q. Will postage be free on the ROW items.
A. No, the costs are higher for stock and we operate on thin margins already. However we will continue to offer subsidised ROW shipping with the VAT as we do now. Though we will soon be launching another site that might be of interest.

Q. Will your delivery times be extended?
A. We anticipate that they will be identical for ROW items as now, however there are some points later which expand on this.

Q. Does your ROW of solution breach GW's trade terms and conditions of sale?
A. Not in anyway whatsoever. They follow both the letter and spirit of both.

Q. Is your ROW product genuine GW product.
A. Yes, Wayland will never sell second hand or counterfeit goods.

Q. How long until replenishment stock arrives?
A. We anticpate 6 weeks, however as pricing is complicated, as is how we must segregate the ROW stock from our normal stock, this is being delivered to our new Warehouse. And the pricing difference means that we cannot launch the replenished service until our new website is live as it will ask you for shipping location when to access the store and show you the correct products automatically.

Q. Why is that?
A. We are wary of the overheads required to inform customers that they have added incorrect products to their baskets. No matter how well we label the items, most people will not notice.

Q. Why is it taking so long?
A. We had almost no notice at our busiest time ever to adapt to the term changes. The solution requires significant space to operate in properly and without putting our existing business at risk. We also have an obligation to ensure all that we are doing is legal and beyond challenge. This all takes time.

Q. You guys rock, why be so nice to us when its so difficult?
A. Please remember that Wayland is a business and we want the sales, however we are what we are by serving our customers and we wont forget how we got here. Ok no one asked that question but we thought it worth mentioning.
This list will be updated if more questions are asked.

So, there we have it. A broad stock offering, at substantially discounted cost with our usual great service. It is coming, we shall provide it for you and we hope you're interested. If you are we'd simply ask that you publicise this wherever you feel appropriate and we look forward to serving the rest of the world very soon.

Keep on wargaming!
Richard
Wayland Games Limited"

I am intrigued to know how they're doing this. Pity I can't order ROW stock to see what the difference is.

hmm I think I see how they are doing this, it's smart, but best of all good prices around the globe!

LavuranGuard wrote:hmm I think I see how they are doing this, it's smart, but best of all good prices around the globe!

Care to share? Or are we going to be all mysterious?

If I am reading this right it means that GW's biggest partner has found a way round their new terms. Seems to make the new terms a bit of a failure...

There was probably some big hole that they could manipulate.

If they are able to pull it, they just won me as a customer, any one that has the balls to go against the evil empire, automatically wins me over.

Flashman wrote:

LavuranGuard wrote:hmm I think I see how they are doing this, it's smart, but best of all good prices around the globe!

Care to share? Or are we going to be all mysterious?

No, because

a) Wayland chose not to
b) I could be wrong

What will they do if GW says fine, takes its ball and goes home?

They could just.....quit supplying them couldn't they? Or quit supplying the distributor that Wayland is purchasing from (if that's their sensitive trick)?

The obvious workaround that occurs to me is opening up subsidiaries in every GW defined region and distributing from those.

Given the timeline and costs they allude to I'd guess something like that.

Yeah, they are probably buying from a distributor at higher prices than they could from GW. Going through a distributor means they don't have to follow GW's guidelines as GW can't cut them off (they could cut off the distributor, but that would be stupid... oh wait...).

They could set up an endless daisy chain of purchasing stock at cost from other vendors who also purchase stock as cost from them. That's my immediate thought. GW can be dickish if they want, but the big deal is making sure they have the legal bases covered so it's harder for them to.

Interesting...

In short, this is good for the ROW customers and what GW should be allowing in the first place.

The fact that GW stores are the only ones allowed to sell overseas is the last hypocrisy about this subject that I could stand.

Good work Wayland, I hope your business prospers if you are looking after your customers first.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Interesting...

veeery....

H.B.M.C. wrote:Interesting...

but really, i have a few ideas to, and im seriously curious, but Nurgle bless them for nipping GW. i hope it lasts.

I love how everyone thinks they're besting GW and found some magic loophole.

I smell payoff/back door deals. It makes more sense and is easier to pull off than presuming one store managed to find a loophole in a contract put out by a company who sends CAD orders to anyone who even thinks about thinking about looking for loopholes in their contracts.

Heyoooo! Glad to see that Wayland Games found a way around this. GW, you silly goose... people want your stuff. Why must you be so fussy about it?

58.91 for an Ork BW w/shipping! I can by from England cheaper then driving to my FLGS...

I think we should be careful about this though... my FLGS won't be able to compete with these prices and could lose some business and perhaps their whole store.

sarcastro01 wrote:I love how everyone thinks they're besting GW and found some magic loophole.

I smell payoff/back door deals. It makes more sense and is easier to pull off than presuming one store managed to find a loophole in a contract put out by a company who sends CAD orders to anyone who even thinks about thinking about looking for loopholes in their contracts.

Something smells for sure...

*sniff* *sniff*

Oh, it's only those jolly bad eggs GW for forcing Wayland to jump through loopholes in the first place.

Good on Wayland for doing their level best to keep the rest of the world supplied as a more reasonable cost, and helping to keep GW games viable.
It is more than they deserve imho.

I heard Wayland were able to find a loophole because GWs new terms and conditions were miscast.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:They could set up an endless daisy chain of purchasing stock at cost from other vendors who also purchase stock as cost from them. That's my immediate thought. GW can be dickish if they want, but the big deal is making sure they have the legal bases covered so it's harder for them to.

My thoughts exactly.

They still haven't updated their Rest of World section yet though, so I assume this means they still are ironing out some issues:

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/rest-of-world-customers/cat_956.html

FrozenSoul80 wrote:I heard Wayland were able to find a loophole because GWs new terms and conditions were miscast.

ZING!

DaNewBoy wrote:
I think we should be careful about this though... my FLGS won't be able to compete with these prices and could lose some business and perhaps their whole store.

I'm going to stick my neck out and pretend this was a serious post.

Honestly people have been saying the same thing since that crazy fad called the internet showed up. I'm sure any day now the hobby will die along with all of those stores that have been successful for the previous years and years that the internet has allowed consumers a choice in where they spend their currency. After all, we know that Games Workshops new European Sales terms, and the US internet sales terms before those, were the magic band aids that erased the internet retailers from existence and made it safe for the FLGS to "compete" in Jervistopia, erasing any and all problems they faced since the big bad internet forced them into new ways of doing business.

For a more serious reply, when I decide where to spend my money, I take into account what my FLGS offers me as a consumer. For example, two of my local stores provide a 15% discount on GW product, a place to play, very nice tables and terrain to play on, and events where I can play with my toy soldiers with others. I don't often feel the need to shop overseas other than during vouchers because I see the everyday savings offset by what I'm getting from my local store. I do however want the choice to be there for me to do so. Just like I want the choice to order from across the state at Miniature Market, and save 25% off retail when I'm making a big order.

FrozenSoul80 wrote:I heard Wayland were able to find a loophole because GWs new terms and conditions were miscast.

SHAZAM

Glad they managed it, if they pull it off and keep it up they'll monopolise RoW orders pretty sweetly, they seem to suggest orders put in before the deadline were exempt from the stupid rules (obviously) so they probably ordered 20 of everything! Restocking is the mysterious bit..

derek wrote:

DaNewBoy wrote:
I think we should be careful about this though... my FLGS won't be able to compete with these prices and could lose some business and perhaps their whole store.

I'm going to stick my neck out and pretend this was a serious post.

Honestly people have been saying the same thing since that crazy fad called the internet showed up. I'm sure any day now the hobby will die along with all of those stores that have been successful for the previous years and years that the internet has allowed consumers a choice in where they spend their currency. After all, we know that Games Workshops new European Sales terms, and the US internet sales terms before those, were the magic band aids that erased the internet retailers from existence and made it safe for the FLGS to "compete" in Jervistopia, erasing any and all problems they faced since the big bad internet forced them into new ways of doing business.

For a more serious reply, when I decide where to spend my money, I take into account what my FLGS offers me as a consumer. For example, two of my local stores provide a 15% discount on GW product, a place to play, very nice tables and terrain to play on, and events where I can play with my toy soldiers with others. I don't often feel the need to shop overseas other than during vouchers because I see the everyday savings offset by what I'm getting from my local store. I do however want the choice to be there for me to do so. Just like I want the choice to order from across the state at Miniature Market, and save 25% off retail when I'm making a big order.

The fact is, the guy who runs my FLGS is not running a very successful business. The demand is there, but to maintain his brick and mortar store he has to mark up prices slightly. He has another job besides the his store he works to pay the bills and I bet without that job the store wouldn't survive. He has a regular crowd of about 15 a day that come in and play games, but that in and of itself isn't generating revenue. Sure they'll by a glue here or some candy there, but in general retail space to just play games is a losing business.

He already has closed the store Mondays and Tuesdays because he can't afford to keep it open everyday of the week anymore. I know this is a capitalist market and the week must die so the strong survive, but if the store goes, I don't have anywhere to play anymore. I am already living paycheck to paycheck myself and I have to save every month to afford a new box of lootas or a meganob.

I know I could probably add you not caring to my list of woes, and I completely understand. I just thought it was worth mentioning that there are stores like my FLGS that this wouldn't be the best news for.

sarcastro01 wrote:I love how everyone thinks they're besting GW and found some magic loophole.

I agree with this too. I would imagine Wayland have renegotiated the deal that they have with GW. Any company that can offer substantial revenue to another company is always going to be willing to negotiate. I seriously doubt that Wayland have found some clever loophole and gone in and pulled the rug out from under GWs feet because if they had GW could just change the terms and conditions again to allow them not too, they already did it once.

RandyMcStab wrote:Glad they managed it, if they pull it off and keep it up they'll monopolise RoW orders pretty sweetly, they seem to suggest orders put in before the deadline were exempt from the stupid rules (obviously) so they probably ordered 20 of everything! Restocking is the mysterious bit..

I don't think that monopolies are a good thing at all. GW's monopoly is what started this stupid situation in the first place. I am in many minds about this, I don't want to see a UK company (Weyland Games or Maelstrom) get stuffed by GW. At the same time I'd rather support my local GW shop because it's a friendly place that usually has what I want, I can also get my GW stuff sent there cutting out our crappy postal service. I don't like to see bricks and mortar FLGS go out of business either although that's tougher in the UK as they have direct competition from GW shops. I also dont like seeing gamers getting shafted.

It would be easy to say that this is all GW's fault but even if they hadn't unleashed the Spring from Hell there would still be the pressure of the internet stores crushing FLGS. I'm intrigued about how Weyland Games will restructure to supply product to the rest of the world and I will be interested to see if other companies follow suit. Internet commerce is still relatively new, and I am wondering how long it will be before GW pull the rug out from under everyone's feet and start to sell direct at competitive prices.

Wow. A country where the minimum wage is 50% higher than Britain and the weekly shop costs less then the UK for me by around a third (a friend and I tested this with an aus online grocery retailer website) can still save money on GW products spending a much lower % of their income on models than the UK does. I think I need to emigrate might make GW affordable for me... Wonder if Aus energy prices are lower too so I could save money on my electric bill as well.
Please note however I am in favour of what Wayland is doing as a company restricting where a retailer can sell their products to is pretty damn pathetic just to up that companies own sales and profit margins.

It isnt "just" to up profit margins for GW, the stated aim is to increase the %age spent within Aus, benefitting that regions gaming stores.

Levi has done this since the early 90s

I don't believe Wayland has negotiated a deal. GW created the whole embargo situation because they honestly believe that they will lose less Australian customers than they gain revenue from those customers buying at AUS retail. If even a single company got around the embargo, there is no reason to have an embargo at all, and then they set themselves up for another fall by having too much for their Australian business relying on a single customer.

I'm not a lawyer, but I assume GW can't just change the terms and conditions whenever they want. Plus, comments from Wayland about needing to keep the stock separated seem to imply a work around.

@DaNewBoy. No offense, but your FLGS just sounds like a bad business and his woes have nothing to do with GW. Running a gaming store is rarely going to be a lucrative business. If he can't afford to pay his own wage at the store, he's doing something wrong. If he needs another job to prop up the store, he's doing something wrong. Perhaps he should act like many gaming stores and charge $5 to play on the tables. It sounds like he is doing the typical thing that makes gaming stores shut down, ie, just running it like a club.

Furthermore, US retailers don't really have much to complain about compared to AUS retailers. Sure, he might be charging 20% more than his competitors. Australian retailers are forced to charge 100% more than their internet competitors. They would have to sell at a loss to compete with Wayland - they can't actually buy stock that cheap from GW. Hell, even GW staff in Australia who get a 50% discount still find Wayland cheaper. All AUS retailers want is to pay UK trade prices and charge UK retail prices.


I'm curious though, if Wayland is somehow getting their stock from another retailer, what is preventing Australian retailers from sourcing their stock from Wayland (or some equivalent?) That way they could effectively pay UK trade prices + taxes and still come out far far ahead.

DaNewBoy wrote:
I just thought it was worth mentioning that there are stores like my FLGS that this wouldn't be the best news for.

See, I just don't get how this is any different than the way things were prior to 14 days ago. Has the local shop seen a boom in business in the last 14 days? I somehow doubt it has if the owner is already marking items above the MSRP and expecting customers to swallow the cost of his failing business instead of just ordering from GW direct at that point, or from any of the number of online stores in the US that aren't restricted from selling to US residents. The change in European trade terms didn't affect the US for the most part since we have in country retailers selling at 25% off or more.

It's not like this "news" is new. It's a return to the status quo that GW tried to upset 2 weeks ago.

Vermillion wrote:Wow. A country where the minimum wage is 50% higher than Britain and the weekly shop costs less then the UK for me by around a third (a friend and I tested this with an aus online grocery retailer website) can still save money on GW products spending a much lower % of their income on models than the UK does. I think I need to emigrate might make GW affordable for me... Wonder if Aus energy prices are lower too so I could save money on my electric bill as well.
Please note however I am in favour of what Wayland is doing as a company restricting where a retailer can sell their products to is pretty damn pathetic just to up that companies own sales and profit margins.

I'm not sure you have your facts right here... wages are higher here by a reasonable amount (avg wage is ~60K AUD here, whereas UK avg wage translates to about 40K AUD)* but our living expenses are proportionally higher. I'm on both Tesco's and Cole's online stores and Tesco seems quite a bit cheaper for everything I've checked so far, after factoring in exchange rate. Coles brand bread is AUD 0.23/100g, whereas Tesco brand bread is AUD 0.14/100g... Think twice before you emigrate: its a lovely country, but all my British friends here are lamenting about how much more expensive everything is.

But that's waaaay off topic. What I meant to say is, I love you Waylands!! Even though GW pissed me off so much that I'm not buying anything from them anymore and instead will buy Distopian Wars, thanks for sticking it!!

Given the decrease in discount I almost have to say that the buying from a third party idea would be the easiest way to get around it. Given that they need to keep their stock separate and the discount is going down a bit seems like they just buy from some other entity other than GW and since the product did not come from GW their silly rules will not apply.

Clever on their part and they more than likely are not losing any money, the extra cost is rolled into the lessened discount but because of GW's crazy pricing it's still tons cheaper than buying local for the people in AUS.

Flashman wrote:

LavuranGuard wrote:hmm I think I see how they are doing this, it's smart, but best of all good prices around the globe!

Care to share? Or are we going to be all mysterious?

I think its fairly obvious. GW's controlling retailers through its terms of sales. While the idea that Wayland has negotiated special terms is plausible, it seems unlikely given how they've stated they have to segregate their RoW stock. The fact that they're doing this means its likely coming from a non-GW source. I believe that their buying their stock for selling in Europe directly from GW but that their RoW stock is being purchased through a distributor. Wayland probably isn't getting as good a discount on the RoW stock, but it doesn't carry the GW terms of sales, since they aren't purchasing it from GW.

Weyland Games wrote:

Q. Will I have to use some third party shipping/broking service?
A. No, your order will be handled completely by Wayland, and we will be fully responsible for getting your order to you as we are now. There is no need for mail forwarding services to be used.

thats how i would do it, and thought how they would do it.

Weyland Games wrote:
Q. How are you achieving this?
A. Complicated, this is also commercially sensitive. However in the first instance, we will utilise stock that we had on hand prior to the "conditions of sale" changes. We moved the stock when the announcements were made as we had the "plan" quite soon after we were notified. This stock is finite. How we replenish is sensitive, but it is coming.

In other words are using a third party front company to buy GW stock. That company will remain anonymous so whe GW respond by refusing to sell to us we will not be affected.

Weyland Games wrote:
Q. What will the pricing be?
A. Until we run out of the stock we have on hand, the pricing will be identical as now. Once the replensihment stock has arrived the prices will be slightly higher as there are additional costs involved. But we will continue to offer at least UK RRP with a 10% discount.

Confirmation of above. The third party front company will require a share of the take, hence even UK customers will not get the full discount expected. This strongly induicates that GW will shortly refuse to sell any more stock to Weyland Games. However they will find it impossible to force thord party companies to disclose if they are reselling to Weyalnd Games, or other companies selling beyond the bounds set by GW.

GW once they realise what is happening will demand that sellers do not resell to third parties trading outside the bounds st by the company. They can legally do that, which means that for this to work som e of GW distributors will have to flat out lie to them. This will help Weyland Games short term, but is bad business practice it also requires complete secrecy on the part of the third party supply companies and will hurt those companies which are trying to honestly trade with GW will begin to suspect everyone and may kneejerk.

I much prefered the dismissed option of an open third party shipping service under the aegis of a club sold to within the UK.

I think that makes it sound alot more decietful than it likely is.

Orlanth wrote:Confirmation of above. The third party front company will require a share of the take, hence even UK customers will not get the full discount expected. This strongly induicates that GW will shortly refuse to sell any more stock to Weyland Games. However they will find it impossible to force thord party companies to disclose if they are reselling to Weyalnd Games, or other companies selling beyond the bounds set by GW.

GW once they realise what is happening will demand that sellers do not resell to third parties trading outside the bounds st by the company. They can legally do that, which means that for this to work som e of GW distributors will have to flat out lie to them. This will help Weyland Games short term, but is bad business practice it also requires complete secrecy on the part of the third party supply companies and will hurt those companies which are trying to honestly trade with GW will begin to suspect everyone and may kneejerk.

I much prefered the dismissed option of an open third party shipping service under the aegis of a club sold to within the UK.

Either way, what is the possibility that GW lets this slide? I highly doubt they will let this happen.

Trasvi wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Wow. A country where the minimum wage is 50% higher than Britain and the weekly shop costs less then the UK for me by around a third (a friend and I tested this with an aus online grocery retailer website) can still save money on GW products spending a much lower % of their income on models than the UK does. I think I need to emigrate might make GW affordable for me... Wonder if Aus energy prices are lower too so I could save money on my electric bill as well.
Please note however I am in favour of what Wayland is doing as a company restricting where a retailer can sell their products to is pretty damn pathetic just to up that companies own sales and profit margins.

I'm not sure you have your facts right here... wages are higher here by a reasonable amount (avg wage is ~60K AUD here, whereas UK avg wage translates to about 40K AUD)* but our living expenses are proportionally higher. I'm on both Tesco's and Cole's online stores and Tesco seems quite a bit cheaper for everything I've checked so far, after factoring in exchange rate. Coles brand bread is AUD 0.23/100g, whereas Tesco brand bread is AUD 0.14/100g... Think twice before you emigrate: its a lovely country, but all my British friends here are lamenting about how much more expensive everything is.

But that's waaaay off topic. What I meant to say is, I love you Waylands!! Even though GW pissed me off so much that I'm not buying anything from them anymore and instead will buy Distopian Wars, thanks for sticking it!!

The average salary in Australia only seems much higher than the UK because of the relative value of the AUD vs the GBP at the moment. If you go back several years to before the start of the global financial crisis, the GBP was worth a lot more against the AUD.

1st Jan
2007: 1 GBP = 2.48 AUD
2008: 1 GBP = 2.26 AUD
2009: 1 GBP = 2.10 AUD
2010: 1 GBP = 1.77 AUD
2011: 1 GBP = 1.52 AUD

Everyone in Australia hasn't got rich, but their buying power for things they can buy from the UK has gone up a lot.

The problem is caused by the fact that GW have failed to adjust their export prices to reflect the GBP weakening against the AUD. Thus it is much cheaper to mail order GW models from the UK rather than buy them locally.

lukewild1982 wrote:
I would imagine Wayland have renegotiated the deal that they have with GW. Any company that can offer substantial revenue to another company is always going to be willing to negotiate. I seriously doubt that Wayland have found some clever loophole and gone in and pulled the rug out from under GWs feet because if they had GW could just change the terms and conditions again to allow them not too, they already did it once.

So why have Wayland not just said, "We have renegotiated athe contract with GW."
There doesn't seem anything to suggest that they have in the FB announcment.

Somehow the thought of GW playing cat and mouse having to change terms and conditions every 5 minutes is rather amusing.
But even if that is the case, Wayland have only just announced this new system and GW have not had time to react.

I have a sneaky suspicion I know what their plan is...

They will sell GW goods as "Used" rather than New.

They make them used by taking off the plastic shrink wrapping etc.

I could see this being something that would invalidate the RoW conditions that GW set out.

That would seem to be breaking the spirit of the rules.

Grimstonefire wrote:I have a sneaky suspicion I know what their plan is...

They will sell GW goods as "Used" rather than New.

It would also leave Weyland open to question regarding customs fraud. Used good are seperate to new in terms of duty in many countries, making goods 'technically used' on a corporate level may be frowned upon by customs agencies.

GW would of course be happy to claim that the goods were sold to Weyland as new and that they do not approve of, nor had any part in any distributors alleged mislabelling of their product to foreign customs agencies.

Grimstonefire wrote:
They make them used by taking off the plastic shrink wrapping etc.

Individuals can do that as when a product is sold to a end user/third party becomes second hand. But good sold by a distributor to a distributor or retailer are expected to remain new.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Wow. A country where the minimum wage is 50% higher than Britain and the weekly shop costs less then the UK for me by around a third (a friend and I tested this with an aus online grocery retailer website) can still save money on GW products spending a much lower % of their income on models than the UK does. I think I need to emigrate might make GW affordable for me... Wonder if Aus energy prices are lower too so I could save money on my electric bill as well.
Please note however I am in favour of what Wayland is doing as a company restricting where a retailer can sell their products to is pretty damn pathetic just to up that companies own sales and profit margins.

I'm not sure you have your facts right here... wages are higher here by a reasonable amount (avg wage is ~60K AUD here, whereas UK avg wage translates to about 40K AUD)* but our living expenses are proportionally higher. I'm on both Tesco's and Cole's online stores and Tesco seems quite a bit cheaper for everything I've checked so far, after factoring in exchange rate. Coles brand bread is AUD 0.23/100g, whereas Tesco brand bread is AUD 0.14/100g... Think twice before you emigrate: its a lovely country, but all my British friends here are lamenting about how much more expensive everything is.

But that's waaaay off topic. What I meant to say is, I love you Waylands!! Even though GW pissed me off so much that I'm not buying anything from them anymore and instead will buy Distopian Wars, thanks for sticking it!!

The average salary in Australia only seems much higher than the UK because of the relative value of the AUD vs the GBP at the moment. If you go back several years to before the start of the global financial crisis, the GBP was worth a lot more against the AUD.

1st Jan
2007: 1 GBP = 2.48 AUD
2008: 1 GBP = 2.26 AUD
2009: 1 GBP = 2.10 AUD
2010: 1 GBP = 1.77 AUD
2011: 1 GBP = 1.52 AUD

Everyone in Australia hasn't got rich, but their buying power for things they can buy from the UK has gone up a lot.

The problem is caused by the fact that GW have failed to adjust their export prices to reflect the GBP weakening against the AUD. Thus it is much cheaper to mail order GW models from the UK rather than buy them locally.

Average salaries mean nothing all honesty as that includes the higher earning ones, lets go for the majority.
Minimum wage in the UK £5.93
Minimum wage in Aus $15 which is £9.85 roughly according to a currency converter.

So after checking places to live I would be paying roughly the same on rent for better accomodation, after hitting the grocery sites and comparing I'm saving £30 a week on food. Leaves bills really, with that extra income depending on energy and telecommunication bill charges I'd be better off overall.
Now lets factor in averages again. Two adults on that wage, 40 hours a week with 2 kids, one gamer in the house. Sorry but still looks as if currently with costs compared the Australians have it better off with more disposable income. Factor in that the GW products which are the centre of this debate are shipped there and sold by people GW are paying in their stores 50% more I can see why prices would be higher there. I can see why GW costs there are so high given these additional costs and while currency strength might be a factor in pricing abroad these aren't really being looked at and thats before shop rental costs come into it, it's not just a straight conversion which should be looked at.

And rereading this I should add the orkmoticon

Disclaimer: This isn't a troll, or a rant, just me calling it as I see it after seeing page after page on this subject and think people should stop to think of this. I also think people should start a rally against energy companies which is an essential expenditure, not a luxury like a hobby, check your bills for those and see how much that cost has went up. Lets discuss those in off topic perhaps and compare and see who is the eviler company, gw or the energy providers

Hmm... I'm plumping for the 3rd party approach. Be interesting to see if another online company breaks ranks in this manner. In theory, all they'd have to do is sell to each other at cost and then export what they buy.

I can almost hear GW lawyers furiously retyping terms and conditions.

The how and the why I care not.

Keeping my Australian buddies in supply of reasonably priced plasticrack is what's important. I hope this works out for you guys...

Vermillion wrote:Average salaries mean nothing all honesty as that includes the higher earning ones, lets go for the majority.
Minimum wage in the UK £5.93
Minimum wage in Aus $15 which is £9.85 roughly according to a currency converter.

So after checking places to live I would be paying roughly the same on rent for better accomodation, after hitting the grocery sites and comparing I'm saving £30 a week on food. Leaves bills really, with that extra income depending on energy and telecommunication bill charges I'd be better off overall.
Now lets factor in averages again. Two adults on that wage, 40 hours a week with 2 kids, one gamer in the house. Sorry but still looks as if currently with costs compared the Australians have it better off with more disposable income. Factor in that the GW products which are the centre of this debate are shipped there and sold by people GW are paying in their stores 50% more I can see why prices would be higher there. I can see why GW costs there are so high given these additional costs and while currency strength might be a factor in pricing abroad these aren't really being looked at and thats before shop rental costs come into it, it's not just a straight conversion which should be looked at.

And rereading this I should add the orkmoticon

Disclaimer: This isn't a troll, or a rant, just me calling it as I see it after seeing page after page on this subject and think people should stop to think of this. I also think people should start a rally against energy companies which is an essential expenditure, not a luxury like a hobby, check your bills for those and see how much that cost has went up. Lets discuss those in off topic perhaps and compare and see who is the eviler company, gw or the energy providers

Of course, GW prices were 50% more expensive than the UK when the Aussie Dollar was worth far less than what it is now, and if wages had anything to do with the cost of GW models, there would be places in the world where you could buy for far, far, less than UK/US does.

But you said it yourself:

"Average salaries mean nothing..."

Damn right Vermillion.

It's just GW using a favourable exchange rate to reap as much return off of our market as possible ie. another short-term goal. If they were serious about this embargo, they wouldn't sell to Australian gamers via their UK web store. Except they do. So they're a bunch of hypocrites.

I wonder if maelstrom will go for a similar maneuver. Either way, I hope it works out for Wayland and I would buy from them if it does.

AesSedai wrote:I wonder if maelstrom will go for a similar maneuver. Either way, I hope it works out for Wayland and I would buy from them if it does.

Maelstrom have got their own problems at the moment:

Maelstrom website wrote:
Games Workshop's new Finecast range - miniatures that used to be metal, but are now spincast resin - has proved somewhat of a bugbear for the company and, thus, ourselves and our customers. Unfortunately, it appears that we are still limited to ordering only three of each item at a time - which means that we can only order three of each item per week (as Games Workshop only allow us to order from them once per week). They have not yet informed us when this restriction in ordering Finecast products will be lifted.

Thus, we must ask those of you who have ordered Finecast products to be patient, for the delay in sending them has been incurred through no fault of our own. We will of course split any orders that have Finecast products and other items and send those as soon as we can, and your Finecast products will follow as soon as we can get our hands on them.

As well as the above, we must also ask all of our customers - even those that have not ordered Finecast products - to be patient for we are experiencing a heavy backlog of orders thanks to the Games Workshop sale. This has, of course, led to an inordinate amount of customer e-mails to answer, which is taking its time to work through.

We appreciate this is not good news, for we do not like any of our customers to experience delays and customer service is our number one priority, but - to be frank - the sheer amount of orders created in May has exceeded all records and we will need an extra few days to complete them and answer e-mails. We also appreciate that this message could have been delivered to you before now, but we were not told about the restrictions not being lifted on Finecast until yesterday.

We appreciate your understanding and hope that you will continue to enjoy our great service, prices and knowledge in the future.

I have had an order waiting with them for two weeks now and nary a squeak - still processing apparently

You would have to think that Wayland would not do something to jeopardise their dealings with their biggest selling lines?

I'm just thinking of the Maelstrom/Battlefront situation, where the latter threw their toys out of the pram and stopped supplying to Maelstrom. As GW are even more tight-arsed I would have thought they would have even less tolerance than Battlefront to any kind of workaround or loophole?

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Although to be honest, I'm not sure if I would have the stomach to buy GW any more even if Wayland did start supplying ROW again, the companies behaviour over the last couple of years has become so despicable that I couldn't in good conscience buy from them again.

Orlanth wrote:

Confirmation of above. The third party front company will require a share of the take, hence even UK customers will not get the full discount expected. This strongly induicates that GW will shortly refuse to sell any more stock to Weyland Games. However they will find it impossible to force thord party companies to disclose if they are reselling to Weyalnd Games, or other companies selling beyond the bounds set by GW.

GW once they realise what is happening will demand that sellers do not resell to third parties trading outside the bounds st by the company. They can legally do that, which means that for this to work som e of GW distributors will have to flat out lie to them. This will help Weyland Games short term, but is bad business practice it also requires complete secrecy on the part of the third party supply companies and will hurt those companies which are trying to honestly trade with GW will begin to suspect everyone and may kneejerk.

I much prefered the dismissed option of an open third party shipping service under the aegis of a club sold to within the UK.

Good post and I think you're spot on. What I don't understand though----if this is indeed their method---how are they going to keep it secret? When Wayland Games GW orders suddenly fall by thousands of dollars---and a new distributor named Dnalyaw Games suddenly starts placing orders in the thousands of dollars---well you would think GW could hunt that down via secret shoppers and SKUs?

I think GW would be very hard pressed to determine that company X's numbers have dropped Z while company Y's have increased Z unless the numbers were the same every week. And if Wayland basically teams up with another retailer and they sell to each other it would be even more difficult as the companies ordering would not really change.

GW would have to do something like hire a private investigator to find out and even then I'm not entirely sure how GW could structure their agreement to prevent this. I guess they could stipulate that you cannot sell to other companies but in that case the owner of Wayland could just buy a lot of "personnal" property, what he/she does with it afterwards is up to them.

Honestly GW should have known better than to try this. Unfortunately for them it is not the 1980's any longer and the world is opening up more and more.

Kilkrazy wrote:That would seem to be breaking the spirit of the rules.

Hey man, RAW is a bitch.

Good news, let's hope it pans out!

As to ordering Finecast from them- I'm sticking to getting Finecast locally, with all the issues it's had- not sure how easy it would be to get a replacement if ordering it online... plus, it seems the wait time is really long.

Ozymandias wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:That would seem to be breaking the spirit of the rules.

Hey man, RAW is a bitch.

Wayland say they are working within the spirit of the rules as well as the letter.

As far as I know, at least in the US GW can just cancel your trade contract and it doesnt matter whos third party distributor you go through

Wayland games sure is taking a massive gamble and it makes me think that a very small percentage of their sales are actually in the UK so they have to break the rules or shut down. This wouldnt surprise me since GW was the cause of the destruction of all the british local game stores from what I hear, why not destroy the online ones too?

vonjankmon wrote:GW would have to do something like hire a private investigator to find out...

All GW would have to do is mark the product they send to the suspected partners and then make an order from wayland and find the mark. Make it a new, but low volume model so they don't have to mark much. A finecast tau space pope perhaps.

cosmid wrote:

vonjankmon wrote:GW would have to do something like hire a private investigator to find out...

All GW would have to do is mark the product they send to the suspected partners and then make an order from wayland and find the mark. Make it a new, but low volume model so they don't have to mark much. A finecast tau space pope perhaps.

Well, each model has a sku associated with it (I'm pretty sure GW uses SKU markers)....

I think GW is gonna treat them pretty harshly.. if they want to restrict world sales then they're going to make wayland an example. If I were the evil empire that's what i would do..

DaNewBoy wrote:58.91 for an Ork BW w/shipping! I can by from England cheaper then driving to my FLGS...

I think we should be careful about this though... my FLGS won't be able to compete with these prices and could lose some business and perhaps their whole store.

You can buy from Miniaturemarket for even cheaper (25% off US MSRP). Your FLGS won't lose any more business to them that it would have already. If anything, they'll fare better against Wayland's higher prices.
Many people would rather pick the item up *when they want it* for the extra $7ish than wait for Wayland to get it to them. Especially since they'll be helping their FLGS (Mini Mkt *is* my FLGS).

Eric

Filbert wrote:

I have had an order waiting with them for two weeks now and nary a squeak - still processing apparently

You too? By the way, where did you get that info? I have been really patient with them and will continue to be patient but I wonder how long it'll take?

Flashman wrote:I am intrigued to know how they're doing this. Pity I can't order ROW stock to see what the difference is.

they have a sub-store/shipping location inside the different "realms" allowed by gw, fairly simple.

AesSedai wrote:

Filbert wrote:

I have had an order waiting with them for two weeks now and nary a squeak - still processing apparently

You too? By the way, where did you get that info? I have been really patient with them and will continue to be patient but I wonder how long it'll take?

It's on their front page, under the heading 'Citadel Finecast Delays'

http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/

To be honest, I swore I wouldn't order from them again; last time I shopped with them my order took ~2 weeks or so but I thought I would give them another shot. Not sure when stuff will ship this time - all it says is 'processing'. According to their shipping FAQ:

Maelstrom FAQ wrote:Orders placed before noon will be processed and (stock willing) sent out the same day; orders placed after noon will be processed and sent the day after. Quite obviously, we do not send items on weekends (we would like some time off!), so if you place your order between noon on Friday and before noon on Monday morning, it will be processed on Monday.

However, it is inevitable that some items could be out of stock when you place your order. In such cases we will order your item from the relevant manufacturer on the same day, which will usually take 2-3 working days to fulfil - so beware bank holidays!

Wayland may have found a loophole for now, but it'll be closed as soon as GW can figure out how to close it.

Filbert wrote:

Not sure when stuff will ship this time - all it says is 'processing'.

Got you beat there, mine has been "packing" for about a week. Sigh.

I think even if Wayland gets away with ROW sales, Japan might be really steep shipping. Free shipping is was drew me too Maelstrom originally.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Average salaries mean nothing all honesty as that includes the higher earning ones, lets go for the majority.
Minimum wage in the UK £5.93
Minimum wage in Aus $15 which is £9.85 roughly according to a currency converter.

So after checking places to live I would be paying roughly the same on rent for better accomodation, after hitting the grocery sites and comparing I'm saving £30 a week on food. Leaves bills really, with that extra income depending on energy and telecommunication bill charges I'd be better off overall.
Now lets factor in averages again. Two adults on that wage, 40 hours a week with 2 kids, one gamer in the house. Sorry but still looks as if currently with costs compared the Australians have it better off with more disposable income. Factor in that the GW products which are the centre of this debate are shipped there and sold by people GW are paying in their stores 50% more I can see why prices would be higher there. I can see why GW costs there are so high given these additional costs and while currency strength might be a factor in pricing abroad these aren't really being looked at and thats before shop rental costs come into it, it's not just a straight conversion which should be looked at.

And rereading this I should add the orkmoticon

Disclaimer: This isn't a troll, or a rant, just me calling it as I see it after seeing page after page on this subject and think people should stop to think of this. I also think people should start a rally against energy companies which is an essential expenditure, not a luxury like a hobby, check your bills for those and see how much that cost has went up. Lets discuss those in off topic perhaps and compare and see who is the eviler company, gw or the energy providers

Of course, GW prices were 50% more expensive than the UK when the Aussie Dollar was worth far less than what it is now, and if wages had anything to do with the cost of GW models, there would be places in the world where you could buy for far, far, less than UK/US does.

But you said it yourself:

"Average salaries mean nothing..."

Damn right Vermillion.

It's just GW using a favourable exchange rate to reap as much return off of our market as possible ie. another short-term goal. If they were serious about this embargo, they wouldn't sell to Australian gamers via their UK web store. Except they do. So they're a bunch of hypocrites.

I prefer to think of them as something else which would get my post deleted myself . Just wondering what hasbro or a similar company will be doing with the warhammer games and specialist games when the GW board decide they've nearly made enough and now it is time for a single space marine to be £25 not a full squad after they buy the company for sod all when shares are worthless.

I'm still curious about how Wayland managed this, perhaps they showed just how much less stock they would be buying coupled with how many ROW customers wont buy anymore . Like I said GW are not just hypocrites but will "do anything for some fast cash", possibly even on a street corner

It's also funny that people think that because the AUD went up, average salaries have gone up in other currencies, that they should pay more.

The opposite is the case.

The whole point of having a valuable currency is that it means people are buying what you're selling. In Australia & Canada's case, it's natural resources. So if a country is selling stuff, then why shouldn't they be able to take that purchasing power and turn around and buy things with it?

Charging them a premium on stuff they import is basically stealing money from what you paid them when they export.

Citizens of countries with strong currencies should enjoy the purchasing power of their currency as a natural result of the economic activity of that country.

We will still be subsidising shipping as we do now. The shipping costs will not be going up.

You can see how little it costs to ship around the world by adding items to your basket and clicking "view basket" and using the shipping estimator.

On another note, and this is in defense of all retailers caught in the same boat so to speak. The price rise and terms changes led to a huge and monumental surge in order volumes with no reasonble notice given to us to allocate or recruit extra resources. And as such we all have backlogs still.

AesSedai wrote:

Filbert wrote:

Not sure when stuff will ship this time - all it says is 'processing'.

Got you beat there, mine has been "packing" for about a week. Sigh.

I think even if Wayland gets away with ROW sales, Japan might be really steep shipping. Free shipping is was drew me too Maelstrom originally.

filbert wrote:According to their shipping FAQ...

And they've already explained how GW differs from that FAQ (1 order a week and, now, max 3 of any Finecost miniature). When Maelstrom have sales on GW products things slow down. This is normal. Everyone should expect this. When sales are on they do around 5000 orders a week, and they're only allowed to order from GW once a week because GW are a bunch of asshats.

Now factor in the sales embargo and the huge level of sales that would generate - is it any surprise things are taking this long? I'm still waiting for my order, and I made mine relatively early in this process. I'm still waiting for my Wayland order as well BTW - that hasn't even shipped yet.

As it always been this ridiculous at GW?
Why don't they just sell from a little cubby hole in Games Workshop World if they wish nobody else to sell their products.

The first half of my Maelstrom order placed on May 28th turned up on Thurs or Fri last week - but I've only been able to collect it today. THey split my order due to a PP fig being out of stock at the distributor.

Not sure if that helps you with your timing, and there was only one Finecast miniature in there (a Lord Commissar - ordered before I was aware of the date when Finecast was launching).

I'm going to spend a little time tomorrow and Friday, and do a "My first Finecast" post on my blog.

I placed an order with wayland a few weeks back and I haven’t heard anything from them either. It’s kind of ridiculous that a handful of very bad decisions from GW can have such a massive flow on effect.

DaNewBoy wrote:

derek wrote:

DaNewBoy wrote:
I think we should be careful about this though... my FLGS won't be able to compete with these prices and could lose some business and perhaps their whole store.

I'm going to stick my neck out and pretend this was a serious post.

Honestly people have been saying the same thing since that crazy fad called the internet showed up. I'm sure any day now the hobby will die along with all of those stores that have been successful for the previous years and years that the internet has allowed consumers a choice in where they spend their currency. After all, we know that Games Workshops new European Sales terms, and the US internet sales terms before those, were the magic band aids that erased the internet retailers from existence and made it safe for the FLGS to "compete" in Jervistopia, erasing any and all problems they faced since the big bad internet forced them into new ways of doing business.

For a more serious reply, when I decide where to spend my money, I take into account what my FLGS offers me as a consumer. For example, two of my local stores provide a 15% discount on GW product, a place to play, very nice tables and terrain to play on, and events where I can play with my toy soldiers with others. I don't often feel the need to shop overseas other than during vouchers because I see the everyday savings offset by what I'm getting from my local store. I do however want the choice to be there for me to do so. Just like I want the choice to order from across the state at Miniature Market, and save 25% off retail when I'm making a big order.

The fact is, the guy who runs my FLGS is not running a very successful business. The demand is there, but to maintain his brick and mortar store he has to mark up prices slightly. He has another job besides the his store he works to pay the bills and I bet without that job the store wouldn't survive. He has a regular crowd of about 15 a day that come in and play games, but that in and of itself isn't generating revenue. Sure they'll by a glue here or some candy there, but in general retail space to just play games is a losing business.

He already has closed the store Mondays and Tuesdays because he can't afford to keep it open everyday of the week anymore. I know this is a capitalist market and the week must die so the strong survive, but if the store goes, I don't have anywhere to play anymore. I am already living paycheck to paycheck myself and I have to save every month to afford a new box of lootas or a meganob.

I know I could probably add you not caring to my list of woes, and I completely understand. I just thought it was worth mentioning that there are stores like my FLGS that this wouldn't be the best news for.

Youe compairing completly different subjects here, dude.

And not only sound foolish, your making excuses about things you don't know anything about.

He has a store with a bunch of clientel that he sells to. Whatever the issues, the bottom line point here is that he could go out on a limb, and.. you know... make himself appealable to his people by being a little more of a business and not just sit there like a jerk and wait for people to put the money in his pocket for him.

Its called running a business for a reason.

I'm sitting here thinking WTF about the subject, though. I mean seriouslly, we're talking about SELLING miniatures, for feths sake, not weapons or chemicals, or some other gak.
Toy figures, and some game stuff, so lets jump through hoops and do some tricks.

GW is a joke.

RiTides wrote:Good news, let's hope it pans out!

As to ordering Finecast from them- I'm sticking to getting Finecast locally, with all the issues it's had- not sure how easy it would be to get a replacement if ordering it online... plus, it seems the wait time is really long.

By George, I think he's got it!

Make the quality of Finecast so dubious, that purchasers are unwilling to take the risk of shopping online - thus reducing sales from online retailers, and forcing customes back into stores to buy at full RRP. I knew there was logic in all of this somewhere

Why doesn't GWS convert themselves to 100% direct only? It's clearly where they want to be, so why not just nad up and do it. All these loopholes they are making their business partners jump through are just stupid. What's next - with every order, you have to submit a haiku about how good looking Jervis is?

There are only 2 reasons I can see that keep them from going entirely direct-only. The first is that they cannot ignore how good for business physical stores are. Most of their money probably still comes from brick and mortar stores, and those are also the places that kids are first introduced to the hobby, for the most part. The second reason is that, as has been stated a million times before, GW seems to hate the internet, and going direct only would require them to embrace internet business, which they seem determined to avoid for as long as possible.

Ouze wrote:What's next - with every order, you have to submit a haiku about how good looking Jervis is?

Stop giving them more ideas lol

Losing the retail stores would kill the size of the industry. GW are the gateway plasticrack drug dealers.

PP know this, mantic know this, etc.

So if you have a premise that internet only doesnt grow the hobby (it doesnt in the majority of cases) then encouraging

As was pointed out the first time round: instrument makers did this, as they saw the value of having actual stores with real knowledgable people. Not JUST company A sending to consumer B halfway round the world.

Not defending GW, as the way they handled it (little notice) was far from ideal.

Ouze wrote:Why doesn't GWS convert themselves to 100% direct only? It's clearly where they want to be, so why not just nad up and do it. All these loopholes they are making their business partners jump through are just stupid. What's next - with every order, you have to submit a haiku about how good looking Jervis is?

Ponytailed rules chimp
Forced to write White Dwarf nonsense
Give back Blood Bowl aid

H.B.M.C. wrote:

filbert wrote:According to their shipping FAQ...

And they've already explained how GW differs from that FAQ (1 order a week and, now, max 3 of any Finecost miniature). When Maelstrom have sales on GW products things slow down. This is normal. Everyone should expect this. When sales are on they do around 5000 orders a week, and they're only allowed to order from GW once a week because GW are a bunch of asshats.

Now factor in the sales embargo and the huge level of sales that would generate - is it any surprise things are taking this long? I'm still waiting for my order, and I made mine relatively early in this process. I'm still waiting for my Wayland order as well BTW - that hasn't even shipped yet.

Odd, I made mine two days before the embargo and i've received two of three orders from them, with one more on the way and I assume itll be in any day now
great job there Wayland

Rich I really gotta ask though, aren't you worried if they find out they'll just stop supplying completely?
I mean they showed no concern about shutting retailers out all over the world with the embargo, why wouldnt they stop allowing you to sell products if they find out about this?

It mightn't be legal. We don't know the details.

I mean, personally speaking, I don't see how they can be obeying the spirit of the trade agreement if they're doing the complete opposite of what the trade agreement allows, but I guess we'll see when Wayland gives us more information.

When Weyland opens up direct trade beyond Europe GW is in its right to cease trading with them. Such an act is entirely within their 'profile'. Weyland must have seen this.

Therefore either the sale to 'RoW' is to be done by a third party, or a third party will be needed to stock Weyland Games. Weyland is opting for the latter which will require active ongoing deception. The DTI might have something to say about that.

What Weyland Games and GW are doing in itself is perfectly legal, I'm not so sure about the third party, as they will need to conceal business records in order to remain veiled.

Rich said it was legal, that'll do for me.

Presumably the sale agreement doesn't limit Wayland from purchasing from other sources, since this would be restrictive on other businesses.

Orlanth wrote:When Weyland opens up direct trade beyond Europe GW is in its right to cease trading with them. Such an act is entirely within their 'profile'. Weyland must have seen this.

Therefore either the sale to 'RoW' is to be done by a third party, or a third party will be needed to stock Weyland Games. Weyland is opting for the latter which will require active ongoing deception. The DTI might have something to say about that.

What Weyland Games and GW are doing in itself is perfectly legal, I'm not so sure about the third party, as they will need to conceal business records in order to remain veiled.

Please reconsider your post. As we have already stated, what we are doing is fully and completely legal and abides by all trade terms and conditions of sale we purchase stock under.

And the name is Wayland


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for extra post.. just want to post this as its also posted on another fora.

Guys and girls, a few times we have seen mention of why don't GW just cut us off or that we must be doing something untoward to achieve our solution.

I can assure you as already stated we are not breaching any terms or conditions of sale. And what we are doing is also legal in every way that we can test.

We are well aware of the commercial risks. However, we have traditionally had a great relationship with GW and I know deep down they are aware and appreciate our efforts to get their product "out there" to a wider audience. Of course, there are a whole host of legal issues involved in the major market player discontinuing supply which I am sure GW are aware of. However, that aside, we at Wayland genuinely believe there to be a commercial solution which we can agree with GW which is good for them, good for us and good for all our customers wherever they may live!

They buy from Dark Sphere's 25% off prices or better, add their 15%ish margin and sell to ROW at 10% off RRP?

My issue with all of this is the total lack of "control" wayland has. What's stopping GW from simply adding another line in the "agreement" (I dont see how its an agreement when its basically forced) and stopping this loophole tomorrow?

It's obvious GW cares very little about its "Relationships" . I mean Im sure the former UK local game stores thought they had good relationships with GW up until they were crushed under their boot then paved over to make way for the GW retail stores. There is a reason the northeast has none of these stores, at least in pittsburgh we fought to prevent them ever coming here

Where ever GW stores go only pestilence, death and sorrow follow!

rich1231 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:When Weyland opens up direct trade beyond Europe GW is in its right to cease trading with them. Such an act is entirely within their 'profile'. Weyland must have seen this.

Therefore either the sale to 'RoW' is to be done by a third party, or a third party will be needed to stock Weyland Games. Weyland is opting for the latter which will require active ongoing deception. The DTI might have something to say about that.

What Weyland Games and GW are doing in itself is perfectly legal, I'm not so sure about the third party, as they will need to conceal business records in order to remain veiled.

Please reconsider your post. As we have already stated, what we are doing is fully and completely legal and abides by all trade terms and conditions of sale we purchase stock under.

And the name is Wayland


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for extra post.. just want to post this as its also posted on another fora.

Guys and girls, a few times we have seen mention of why don't GW just cut us off or that we must be doing something untoward to achieve our solution.

I can assure you as already stated we are not breaching any terms or conditions of sale. And what we are doing is also legal in every way that we can test.

We are well aware of the commercial risks. However, we have traditionally had a great relationship with GW and I know deep down they are aware and appreciate our efforts to get their product "out there" to a wider audience. Of course, there are a whole host of legal issues involved in the major market player discontinuing supply which I am sure GW are aware of. However, that aside, we at Wayland genuinely believe there to be a commercial solution which we can agree with GW which is good for them, good for us and good for all our customers wherever they may live!

Rich I understand its legal
But its also legal for them to stop supplying you and preventing you from selling their product as well if they deem it fit
After their little exercise with the embargo do you really think theyd somehow be above not supplying a company, as useful as you are( so were the other global retailers) because they know your not playing the game they want you to play?

Again its not the legality thats the issue, its GW who will just cut you off completely if they find out because they don't want money going into you guys
They've already proven they're not above such tactics
But rest assured I will definitely looking into RoW and how its going and making purchases if it remains available. Of this your guranteed

Kirasu - it is an agreement because you are not FORCED to buy stock at below retail -you can buy at retail prices if you wish.

I still dont see how it fits the "spirit" of the agreement either - the spirit has been well defined by GW, and UK courts do have great lassitude in determining "spirit", especially in B2B contracts.

That is pretty much forced still.. Sure you can buy at retail prices but then you're out of business. Its like if food was suddenly 4000x the cost.. No, you dont *have* to buy it but then you starve

What im saying is that because for all intents and purposes of RUNNING a business you must accept whatever gibberish GW throws at you.. Therefore GW can simply change a line in the agreement and you must accept it, or go out of business hence the precarious nature of trying to bypass rules that can be changed overnight. What's stopping GW from changing the agreement again AND locking wayland out to make them an example to the world of what happens when you dont do what you're told?

Yes wayland sells a lot of miniatures, but are those sales going to vanish if they do? Probably not and GW knows this. People will buy elsewhere and a small percentage perhaps wont buy anything. From a strategic viewpoint Wayland holds very little leverage and has everything to lose. Like I said before, this only makes sense if they were going to go out of business because domestic sales cant keep them afloat

Kirasu, my guess is that you are not a european competition law expert.

Nope, but Id enjoy Gw's customers taking them to court just to see what would happen. Laws are very easily circumvented and ignored. Unless you're willing to take them to court and pay the money required to win then it matters little.

I wish wayland all the luck in the world to fighting the evil empire that is GW, but if your revenue is derived from someone else *allowing* you to sell their stuff.. then its possibly a bad idea to piss them off

If they can pull it off, go for it.. but I cant imagine GW not going after them a sledgehammer. By the time a court case is decided the company may be out of business anyway so what purpose does that serve? I could be wrong, but if the opinion of someones internal lawyers was 100% correct then there would never be any lawsuits right? Since everyone shares the same opinion on what is legal obviously!

He's obviously making decisions based on research and review that he conducted in determining this course of action. Kirasu you're treating it as if Wayland is "business as normal" with GW, but they're obviously doing something different to make this work. I don't think anyone outside the EU should be making any ascertions about how this will playout legally.

Kirasu - no, if you business is 100% reliant on a single source, then you havea crappy business model.

To compare miniatures, where there are plenty of competing brands, to "food", which has no competition (apart from good whiskey, of course ), is inane.

What GW are doing (using TM law to restrict export of goods outside the EEA) is tried and tested case law.

I think the implication of what rich1231 said is that they're approaching it more from an unfair competition side of EU law. Something to the degree that GW isn't making this decision out of preserving sales regions, so much as it is to constrain what is otherwise fair competition.

The EU cannot regulate outside of the EEA, and has already stated that you are perfectly, 100% legally entitled to restrict the export or import of your trademarked goods to or from the EU. See levis vs tescos for a start.
So thats a "no" on two counts there.

What that has to do with competition law is beyond me. I'm just trying to interpret what he's said. Maybe you're a lawyer and have a stronger sense of whats going on, but given what he's said you should at least be able to focus in on the area of law thats governing their point of view.

I'm of the belief they're simply buying their RoW stock from a wholesale distributor to allow them to get around having to contractually follow GW's rules on that merchandise.

Because the use of imports and exports law to control where products get sent has already been tested in court?>

It isnt a case of "unfair competition", as the Australian market is not solely GW

rich1231 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:When Weyland opens up direct trade beyond Europe GW is in its right to cease trading with them. Such an act is entirely within their 'profile'. Weyland must have seen this.

Therefore either the sale to 'RoW' is to be done by a third party, or a third party will be needed to stock Weyland Games. Weyland is opting for the latter which will require active ongoing deception. The DTI might have something to say about that.

What Weyland Games and GW are doing in itself is perfectly legal, I'm not so sure about the third party, as they will need to conceal business records in order to remain veiled.

Please reconsider your post. As we have already stated, what we are doing is fully and completely legal and abides by all trade terms and conditions of sale we purchase stock under.

And the name is Wayland

There is nothing to reconsider, the post you quoted states that what you (and GW) is doing is within the law. Highlighted.

Weyland is opting for the latter which will require active ongoing deception.

That would imply practice that is not within the spirit of terms and conditions of the agreement.

Asuron wrote:
But its also legal for them to stop supplying you and preventing you from selling their product as well if they deem it fit

+1 any company has a right to stop trading unless you are trading within a fixed term of contract.

If Wayland has a signed contract (and GW doesn't have the right in the contract to change the terms) then Gw can do nothing if Wayland beaches the Rest of World sales policy. As GW is making such policies it must have power to enforce them somehow, either through new distribution contracts available at an end of period cycle or a clause that allows GW to change resale terms.

If Wayland has a distributors/retailers contract GW is within their rights to not renew it. If GW has power in ther contract to chasnge resale terms and Wayland fails to comply with the new terms thwen GW may consider its contract with Wayland breached if sales beyond prescribed limits continue after the date of change.

If there is no specific sales contract then GW can simply choose to stop seling to Wayland as and when it wants to (which will be as soon as they realise Wayland is still selling south of the Med.)

If GW has no right to change resale terms in a contract everyone would be doing what Wayland are doing, and/or GW will be seen to be making totally unenforcable threats.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Weyland is opting for the latter which will require active ongoing deception.

That would imply practice that is not within the spirit of terms and conditions of the agreement.

By the third party. Wayland has protested innocence, which is not necessary as there was no accusation to begin with. But GW will try to stop selling to them, Wayland must have a way around that, which is legal for them but may well go beyond the bounds of transparent business practice for those who supply Wayland. Rich1231 has rightly protested Waylands own innocence but issued no comment on his future suppliers, which are looking increasingly likely not to be Games Workshop longterm.

Wayland Games intends to directly openly breach GW's sales limits. There has to be some sort of consequence for that or everyone would be ignoring GW's new rules as corporate histrionics, after all they are unpopular enough.

+1 any company has a right to stop trading unless you are trading within a fixed term of contract.

Guess you have never read one, I have read an australian "terms of trade" they are agreement they are not fixed time contracts, they also have a line saying that GW can change the terms of the agreement at any time. Any time there is a change they send you out a new one to sign, if you dont sign it then they wont supply you at trade

filbert wrote:

AesSedai wrote:

Filbert wrote:

I have had an order waiting with them for two weeks now and nary a squeak - still processing apparently

You too? By the way, where did you get that info? I have been really patient with them and will continue to be patient but I wonder how long it'll take?

It's on their front page, under the heading 'Citadel Finecast Delays'

http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/

To be honest, I swore I wouldn't order from them again; last time I shopped with them my order took ~2 weeks or so but I thought I would give them another shot. Not sure when stuff will ship this time - all it says is 'processing'. According to their shipping FAQ:

Maelstrom FAQ wrote:Orders placed before noon will be processed and (stock willing) sent out the same day; orders placed after noon will be processed and sent the day after. Quite obviously, we do not send items on weekends (we would like some time off!), so if you place your order between noon on Friday and before noon on Monday morning, it will be processed on Monday.

However, it is inevitable that some items could be out of stock when you place your order. In such cases we will order your item from the relevant manufacturer on the same day, which will usually take 2-3 working days to fulfil - so beware bank holidays!

I waited 3 weeks for my Maesltrom order. Half a year ago they'd be on a plane in under 10 days.

Asuron wrote:

rich1231 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:When Weyland opens up direct trade beyond Europe GW is in its right to cease trading with them. Such an act is entirely within their 'profile'. Weyland must have seen this.

Therefore either the sale to 'RoW' is to be done by a third party, or a third party will be needed to stock Weyland Games. Weyland is opting for the latter which will require active ongoing deception. The DTI might have something to say about that.

What Weyland Games and GW are doing in itself is perfectly legal, I'm not so sure about the third party, as they will need to conceal business records in order to remain veiled.

Please reconsider your post. As we have already stated, what we are doing is fully and completely legal and abides by all trade terms and conditions of sale we purchase stock under.

And the name is Wayland


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for extra post.. just want to post this as its also posted on another fora.

Guys and girls, a few times we have seen mention of why don't GW just cut us off or that we must be doing something untoward to achieve our solution.

I can assure you as already stated we are not breaching any terms or conditions of sale. And what we are doing is also legal in every way that we can test.

We are well aware of the commercial risks. However, we have traditionally had a great relationship with GW and I know deep down they are aware and appreciate our efforts to get their product "out there" to a wider audience. Of course, there are a whole host of legal issues involved in the major market player discontinuing supply which I am sure GW are aware of. However, that aside, we at Wayland genuinely believe there to be a commercial solution which we can agree with GW which is good for them, good for us and good for all our customers wherever they may live!

Rich I understand its legal
But its also legal for them to stop supplying you and preventing you from selling their product as well if they deem it fit
After their little exercise with the embargo do you really think theyd somehow be above not supplying a company, as useful as you are( so were the other global retailers) because they know your not playing the game they want you to play?

Again its not the legality thats the issue, its GW who will just cut you off completely if they find out because they don't want money going into you guys
They've already proven they're not above such tactics
But rest assured I will definitely looking into RoW and how its going and making purchases if it remains available. Of this your guranteed

Legally possible sure, feasible i dont quite think so. GW`s sales numbers are getting worse (you can check it on last/this year annual report, from 2005 to present) i would even dare say they are at an all time low or close to it (since 2005 they have lost around 20-25% of their sales), i dont think its quite possible to cut 1 of their biggest retailers off, at least not at present time.

xxvaderxx wrote:
Legally possible sure, feasible i dont quite think so. GW`s sales numbers are getting worse (you can check it on last/this year annual report, from 2005 to present) i would even dare say they are at an all time low or close to it (since 2005 they have lost around 20-25% of their sales), i dont think its quite possible to cut 1 of their biggest retailers off, at least not at present time.

GW can afford to stop selling to Wayland. The only actual losses from their point of view will be any sales from a Wayland brick and mortar store. So for example if Wayland sells x stock to European online customers, those same customers will buy x stock from another internet retailer a few minutes after they find they cannot buy from Wayland, this doesnt take into account those customers who are disillusioned because of Games Workshops policies, however Waylands sales status is ancillary to that. GW will not in itself be affected by the action of ceasing trading with Wayland unless Wayland has some form of contractual rights to the contrary.

rattman wrote:
Guess you have never read one, I have read an australian "terms of trade" they are agreement they are not fixed time contracts, they also have a line saying that GW can change the terms of the agreement at any time. Any time there is a change they send you out a new one to sign, if you dont sign it then they wont supply you at trade

Ok, interesting and thankyou. However UK 'terms of trade' are what are at issue here. I haven't seen one of those either, am having to cover all the bases as to how this can work out, and am still coming back to the conclusion that is Wayland don't do as GW demand, GW will stop supplying Wayland.

IM from New Zealand and I got this from Wayland this morning regarding an order I made around May 21st this year.
Im absolutely appalled by this.
Ive been waiting nearly a month for them to tell me this.
This was ordered well prior to the date change.
So much for there special stock and plans.

Message below

Hello


We are contacting you Regarding Recent Order No 110517-065314-6491

Unfortunately the Space Marine Thunderfire Cannon is no longer available from us.

We have refunded your order in full for you.

Please accept our apologies for the inconvenience caused here.

Regards
Craig


Ticket ID: KLRK-026330
Subject: Waylandgames Regarding Recent Order No 110517-065314-6491
Department: General
Priority: Low
Status: Closed

Better order direct from GW.

Is it a metal model and therefore was withdrawn for nifecats?
then caught up with the GW export farago?

Pain in the antipodes but possibly not entirely Wayland's fault.
Cripes, really £30 for that kit?

Kilkrazy wrote:Better order direct from GW.

Yeah, good news is it's probably a F ne Ca t Mo el by now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because the use of imports and exports law to control where products get sent has already been tested in court?>

It isnt a case of "unfair competition", as the Australian market is not solely GW

My point is that Wayland says they have a way to do this legally. That they want to be hush on their exact method to allow them an edge in the market and by inference keep GW from further changing rules. They have implied that they are relying on legal advice pertaining to EU competition law as a basis for that.

You can either assume they're lying about what little they've said or believe them. I tend to believe them since they haven't given me any reason to think they'd lie.

They are doing this. So its silly continue to say that "the just can't" because of "X" reason. Maybe they are breaking the law, but they have some legal basis, at least in their minds, for their particular posturing. That's what I'm interested in, but if you brush off their notion of why everything will be okay, than we can't really dig for information to try to understand Wayland's approach better.

Gaz,

I know its annoying however.. just to explain.

The Thunderfire cannon is a direct only item and is really clearly marked as such. They are items subject to availability.

At the moment we place our direct only orders with GW.. then then sit on some of them for a few days and sometimes they sit on them for 3 weeks or more. Then the ship what they have available which often (especially at the moment with metals being pulled randomly without us ever being informed) has some items removed. We then have to pass that news on to the customer.

We know its a pain to wait and then have bad news but with regards to Direct only we are totally at the whim of GW.

Aka - the post was suggesting you could use EU comp law to regulate GW controlling exports outside of the EEA, which (to the best of my knowledge) doesnt apply.

I still dont believe that this can fit with the "spirit" of the new agreement, given the publicly stated reasons for the change.

We need an expert in EU trade law to inform us whether it is legal for GW to restrict trade by preventing Wayland from exporting model kits.

Kilkrazy wrote:We need an expert in EU trade law to inform us whether it is legal for GW to restrict trade by preventing Wayland from exporting model kits.

It's a good point.

As far as I'm aware, it may well be, though this is based on distribution rights for films and that. Different territories have different contracts. No idea if this applies to retail gubbins, but it could be a kind of precedent?

What is stopping Wayland from having a "brick and mortar" site in the other GW sales zones? How complicated would it have to be? Not very. Add a couple of employees, lease a closet sized "store", and have orders sent directly to each site. Then orders could be sent from GW to a store and then shipped to each zone. Yes that would require a "risk" but if Wayland's sales increased from it than it was well worth it. By the way.....if that is what is happening, someone from Wayland PM me, please. I would love to work for you.

What is stopping Wayland from having a "brick and mortar" site in the other GW sales zones? How complicated would it have to be? Not very. Add a couple of employees, lease a closet sized "store", and have orders sent directly to each site. Then orders could be sent from GW to a store and then shipped to each zone. Yes that would require a "risk" but if Wayland's sales increased from it than it was well worth it. By the way.....if that is what is happening, someone from Wayland PM me, please. I would love to work for you.

Nice try, Mr. Wells

I would assume that part of the contract states you must buy stock at regional cost.

Although, it is an interesting idea---if they partnered with an Australian shop and agreed to sell to them at a 15% markup---then had their orders forwarded to Australia. That FLGS would be extremely competitive and likely drown other local stores though---and again I'm assuming GW could simply turn off the spigot.

It would only be for "internet sales". The brick and mortar would exist but only because it has to. Call it an inventory transfer. I'm sure Wayland has fleshed out all of this legally and whatever they are doing is on the up-and-up. I would thing GW sales are a large part of their business otherwise they would just kick them to the curb. Seriously I would work for them, PM me.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I would assume that part of the contract states you must buy stock at regional cost.

Although, it is an interesting idea---if they partnered with an Australian shop and agreed to sell to them at a 15% markup---then had their orders forwarded to Australia. That FLGS would be extremely competitive and likely drown other local stores though---and again I'm assuming GW could simply turn off the spigot.

That sounds like resale price maintenance. (Which is illegal under UK, US and Australian law.)

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/322982

Totally not true in the US. I work as a retail manager and we have a number of brands that have something called MAPP pricing. We are not allowed to sell below what they tell us to or they will pull our contract with them. It may be that way in Australia but not here, in fact we had to refund a product to a customer and re-bill them at a higher price because we messed up and sold an item below MAPP.

Perhaps the situation is different depending on the state in the USA.

Resale price maintenance is certainly illegal under UK and Australian law.

Isn't that, at least one, of the reasons publishers had to stop putting RRP on the books a few years back?

Yes. Exactly right.

Yet you can refuse to sell to someone for below a specific price point. You cannot be forced to sell to someone for lower than you want to sell it at.

When you are an effective monopoly (the reason GW is never allowed to put sales on in the UK; the CC nobbled them for that a few years ago) this is sometrhing easy to achieve.

Guys thanks for all the remarks.

We are driven by the very strong urge to explain in detail how this is being achieved but have to follow advice and instruction that we keep powder dry for the moment.

Hope everyone understands.

We do, I'm just intrigued

rich1231 wrote:
We are driven by the very strong urge to explain in detail how this is being achieved but have to follow advice and instruction that we keep powder dry for the moment.

Frankly I am suprised you responded to our comments at all. Whatever you are doing best not to talk about it. Thats our 'job'.