Spoiler: In this initial post I spoil a little bit of the earlier books.
As you get your books in tomorrow (or whenever) let's take some time to
discuss the fiction of the story and how it's progressing. For those of you new
to Warmachine, every expansion rulebook progresses the overall conflict
between the various factions. Warmachine books feature Warmachine factions
and Hordes books feature mostly the Hordes factions.
If you've ever read game-fiction, part of the fun of reading this fluff is seeing
how the abilities of the characters are described. For instance, Warmachine:
Prime Mk2 shows us the High Reclaimer casting Sacrificial Lamb: one of his
acolytes simply crumples and dies and suddenly all his Redeemer warjacks have
the one focus they need to boost damage rolls on Caine. Very fun stuff.
Other cool things you see in the books are watching future possible character
developments such as when characters "go epic." In Warmachine: Escalation,
Stryker witnesses atrocities committed in the name of Menoth, so at the
start of Apotheosis he resigns from the Cygnaran military only to receive
the King's Mark to requisition anything and everything he needs to fight the
war to defend Cygnar. He commandeers an experimental armor from Nemo
(experimental in that epic Stryker's suit damages him when he uses it to enhance
his strength) and becomes what everyone calls "Darth Stryker" as he seeks
to fight the Menites with the same ruthlessness as they display.
Rumors so far suggest that Warmachine: Wrath features all the new
warcasters (duh) but also old standbys such as Deneghra and Haley,
Karchev and Irusk, and several others.
Be aware that anything posted after this will be spoiling background information
of some kind. If you dislike spoilers, do not read.
I'm excited, I just got into Warmachine back in January. This will be my first expansion book, and I'm going to be at my FLGS the minute they open to grab my copy. It will be great to see a game where the story moves.
Sparks wrote:As a fan of Kara (who knew right?) ever since reading her profile I've always been curious who the junior officer she had an affair with was/is.
Does Wrath have anything to say about Sloan?
It's in the cygnar book in the short story "The First Shot". He is a trencher commando lieutenant named Willam Raddik.
Also, does anyone know if there's somewhere online that I can read an overview of the story lines I've missed? I've been out of the fluff loop since MkII came out, except for the Minions book(couldn't pass on the Gator fluff).
*Deneghra continuing to try to manipulate Haley
*Hints at Feora's hopes to become Hierarch someday
*Vinter's back in town!
*And so is Magnus! But not in league with Vinter.
*Magnus's new friend, Julius
*House Vyre! Ossyan is a distant relative to Goreshade...
*Karchev getting pwnd by Deneghra big time.
So here is my reaction to the fluff (well at least how it affects Cygnar and Retribution).
Cygnar is just getting beat on all sides again...the only good thing being Blaze showing up and Nemo being saved.
Not to mention Vinter is back...anyone want to take bets on how many books it will take before the civil war starts?
At least Ret was more successful...however long that will last with and inevitable showdown with Gorshade again.
All I can say is I can't wait for the next one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noisy_Marine wrote:It'd be nice if there was somewhere that summarized the Mark I fiction so one didn't have to buy all the MkI books to read it.
I agree, I wish they would release it in a book, it's too spread out (some fluff was in No Quarters apparently). Would be a nice way to get everyone who started with MK 2 to catch up.
Faction books have story information. The first bit of fluff from the book with the kidnapped engineer is in continuation from the Khador faction books. Also I'm surprised no one's pointed out that the Retribution is now in possession of the sleeping god Nyssor.
chaos0xomega wrote:So how badly was Karchev beat down :( Not surprised, thats the way games against Denny/e-Denny usually go unless I get lucky...
Basically Deneghra turns him ghostly and yanks him out of his warjack armour then throws him to the ground. He gets angry and makes an explosion of rage damaging the nightmare and injuring Deneghra, then he feints and so Deneghra heals herself. The story ends with her her minions taking his armour to bits for scrap and the neurosurgeons putting Cryx tech into Karchev to keep him alive. Mwahahaha
malfred wrote:EPIC Karchev is going to work for Toruk. Oh hell.
If that happens the Iron Kingdoms are
I'm hoping Cryx will suddently turn on itself or something. Denegra sure has been trying to keep people alive - Haley and now Karchev. I wonder how long it will take before she turns on Asphixious (he seemed like he noticed her not killing Karchev).
I'm looking forward to seeing how Nyssor's recovery affects the Retribution.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote:Karchev has too much fury for a simple dragon to command him! He shall rage and escape to join the glorious motherland! eKarchev for Khador!
It's hard to escape with no arms and legs It'd be a bit strange for the cryx to build him a suit. Although maybe they'd do it thinking Karchev had his will bound and would serve Cryx. Then he'd escape later but be couldn't be removed from the suit as it'd kill him.
On another note I've only skimmed the book so far and have focused on cryx. What's the "dark force" they're talking about on the back of the book
Demonstrate with incontrovertible proof that the Motherland or someone
in the Greylords Covenant was conspiring to turn Karchev into the man in
the machine that he is today...
Also the battle isn't really done. While Irusk will make no attempt to retrieve him the arrival of other forces may help. Just a Deus Es Machina type thing.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote:Also the battle isn't really done. While Irusk will make no attempt to retrieve him the arrival of other forces may help. Just a Deus Es Machina type thing.
More like a Man ex Machina thing, don't you think?
p160 Nowhere near on par with his father, but he had the potential. Talent with the blade came easily to his family line - even Leto had the gift.
All we know is that he is learning swordplay from Magus and gets his first kills against some sword knights (as they raid a caravan full of gold). I'm thinking he may be more like Vinter (to my knowledge not a warcater but equally as bad ).
"...the young man was already a consummate swordsman. Nowhere near on par with his father...Talent with the blade came easily to his family line--even Leto had the gift."
They seem to hint that the boy will be a swordfighter,
like his father. He complains about not being able to fight
against Magnus's warcaster armor and powerfield, and
Magnus points out that a man with a sword, especially the
augmented one he made for Julius, can defeat a warcaser
in power armor.
CATACLYSMUS wrote:I would kind of like to know how Vinter can beat so much Warcaster/warlock butt and still be unaugmented in any way apparent...(Makeda, Feora...)
He's just that bad ass.
Seriously, I almost wish I was making that up. Read the story in Primal where he conquers the Skorne by sheer force of will.
No, I did! That is exactly what I'm talking about!
However, I did read in 'Wrath', since I asked that question, that Kingslayer is Mechanikally augmented. That might be part of it.
But yes, he beat down all of Makedas beasts, her soldiers, and then her!
Kind of makes you root for the guy. Just a normal dude with an abnormal amount of badass in his pack.
CATACLYSMUS wrote:No, I did! That is exactly what I'm talking about! However, I did read in 'Wrath', since I asked that question, that Kingslayer is Mechanikally augmented. That might be part of it. But yes, he beat down all of Makedas beasts, her soldiers, and then her! Kind of makes you root for the guy. Just a normal dude with an abnormal amount of badass in his pack.
He's also been set up to be one of the penultimate villains in the story(for both systems). His treatment of Magnus and the Skorne show how much he only cares about 2 things: himself and ruling the world.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote:Faction books have story information. The first bit of fluff from the book with the kidnapped engineer is in continuation from the Khador faction books. Also I'm surprised no one's pointed out that the Retribution is now in possession of the sleeping god Nyssor.
My bad, not faction books. However, if you read the faction non-story
introductions in Prime MKii, you get a very basic rundown of events.
I didn't really take note of much of the Hordes factions. I'm
guessing the Skorne will want to come after Vinter and Legion
might be interested in the vault of Nyssor. I don't think they
will come hard after Cryx because Everblight's way has been to
avoid confrontation with its father's minions. The only other
real ongoing conflict I can think of is the Kriels fighting for lands
with Cygnar.
Otherwise, most of the Hordes conflicts will be Hordes-centric,
as it should be.
malfred wrote:How do you bind the will of Karchev?
Demonstrate with incontrovertible proof that the Motherland or someone
in the Greylords Covenant was conspiring to turn Karchev into the man in
the machine that he is today...
Might not be true, but it would certainly work.
Don't know how you'd do it it was pure speculation on my part. Maybe carving Cryx runes into the flesh?
From the Legion/Cryx angle, I'd like to see how that Athanc that Asphyxious is schlepping back to Cryx will figure. It stands to reason that everblight might try to eat it before Toruk gets it. Possibly drawing Toruk out of his lair...Nah, that is too world-changing to do anytime soon. Kind of like the Emporer standing up off the golden throne...
The thing is if Cryx wanted to lichify Karchev they'd just kill him and reanimate him to their will. Keeping him alive probably indicates that Deneghra just wants to torture him for fun :U
Sgt.Sunshine wrote:The thing is if Cryx wanted to lichify Karchev they'd just kill him and reanimate him to their will. Keeping him alive probably indicates that Deneghra just wants to torture him for fun :U
Maybe.
However, Goreshade witnessed the Karchev-napping, and the story made
his gaze seem ominous. So I suspect there's more to the abduction than just
mere fun.
I'm wondering what will happen to Haley. It seems that Denny kind of lured her into getting cut by that poisoned knife. You would think that she was simply unlucky in her rescue of Nemo, but the webs of Cryx run deep...
Both Stryker and Nemo are mostly side characters in this one.
Stryker's character arc came full circle in Legends. However, I
could have said that about Haley when she trashed her
sister, but she's still getting major face time.
Nemo is Wrath's MacGuffin, though you do get to see him
fight a bit.
Thanks for that Malf. I'll still pick it up, just for the precursor knight theme force I'll build---can't wait for that Blaize mini.
Do you have any suggestions on books to get the fluff in my gut? I've read Prime, Cygnar, Minions---and was considering the IKRPG books----or is there an online fluff repository like 40k Lexi...?
My favorite bit has got to be the re-introduction of House
Vyre through the character of Lord Arcanist Ossyan. Divination
as a branch of arcane science takes me back to the old Weis
and Hickman Deathgate Cycles and the way that they set up
the Patryn/Sartan magic.
malfred wrote:My favorite bit has got to be the re-introduction of House
Vyre through the character of Lord Arcanist Ossyan. Divination
as a branch of arcane science takes me back to the old Weis
and Hickman Deathgate Cycles and the way that they set up
the Patryn/Sartan magic.
I had to check to make sure I hadn't accidentally switched to the Wasteland reading this. Didn't we have a Sartan/Patryn convo a couple weeks ago?
Please let it be so, though I gotta ask, why keep him alive? Wouldn't it be more advantageous to Cryx for him to die, unless they try to turn him into a slave warcaster or something?
Please let it be so, though I gotta ask, why keep him alive? Wouldn't it be more advantageous to Cryx for him to die, unless they try to turn him into a slave warcaster or something?
People suspect a deeper game because Deneghra noticed Asphyxious
noticing that she didn't kill Karchev.
It wouldn't happen for the simple fact that it would then allow games of Cygnar Caine/Khador Karchev vs. Merc Caine/Cryx Karchev. I hope you can see why this would be an invalid turn of events, specifically in regards to league play. This of course assumes that they would release models and rules for the treasonous bastards to be used on table...
I don't know much about Caine, but I dont see Karchev being a turncoat. He's defended Khador for over 100 years, even near death couldn't stop him. Its going to take a lot more than a little Necrobitch and her death magic to turn him (I hope).
As long as eKarchev remains in a jack, I'll be happy. None of this Man O War or cybernetic implant bs.
I could see the the opposite faction thing coming into play as an issue with league play, but PP has already given themselves a loophole in regards to how this would work out on the tabletop. What happens if you have 2 Khador players using Karchev? Who is the real one? Having a Cyngar Caine going up against a Merc Caine could be nothing more than an "imposter" or a doppleganger. I think it would provide some really cool back and forth between players.
chaos0xomega wrote:It wouldn't happen for the simple fact that it would then allow games of Cygnar Caine/Khador Karchev vs. Merc Caine/Cryx Karchev. I hope you can see why this would be an invalid turn of events, specifically in regards to league play. This of course assumes that they would release models and rules for the treasonous bastards to be used on table...
Why would that be a bad thing? Back in the L5R days, folks use to use heros that were corrupt, in honorable ways to try and turn them back to the good side. Worked to at tournments, as enough wins and eventually the hero would be redeemed in the next set.(of course it could happen the opposite way).
Easily could see a good run of corrupt Karchev staying that way or being redeemed if he does well enough.
Alfndrate wrote:I could see the the opposite faction thing coming into play as an issue with league play, but PP has already given themselves a loophole in regards to how this would work out on the tabletop. What happens if you have 2 Khador players using Karchev? Who is the real one? Having a Cyngar Caine going up against a Merc Caine could be nothing more than an "imposter" or a doppleganger. I think it would provide some really cool back and forth between players.
Last I checked same faction league games didnt count... I dunno, I just dont like it, robbing my favorite caster from my faction and giving it to someone else, it just aint right.
I've never played in a league, :( thanks for ruining my cred
I have a small khador force, if I had Karchev, and my buddy who plays Cryx had this "Anti-Karchev" I would go back and forth with him trying to claim Karchev as a fighter for the motherland, it would be awesome
Well, you could always ask MTG players how they feel, last time I played, there was a single character that had 3 different forms, a red form, a black form, and a green form... And I believe you could only have 1 of them on the field at a time (or 1 of the red, 1 green, etc...) PP could go that route, but you'd screw up armies if that was the case
and i dont see it as becoming a problem as we already have Epic and normal versions of characters anyway...and we regularly see same character matchups anyway (eVLad vs Evlad for the finals etc...)
if its going to make the story interesting so be it
"He dealt a great blow to the hulking metal monstrosity, cleaving it's faceplate cleanly. What followed next was something that brought back the cold grip of fear in Orsus' heart.
'Orsusss...' The thing hissed at him. Necroplasm dribbled from its mouth as it raised it's claw to the Butcher. The gesture was non-threatening, almost pleading. For the first time in an age, Orsus felt himself step back.
The monster was definitely Cryxian...the face however was Khadoran.
Orsus stared at Karchev.
'Orsussss...Look at me...look at what they've made me..."
I can understand that there would be a great deal of resistance from players to cross faction switches but from a narrative perspective it could be really interesting to see. As Bakerofish has illustrated so nicely that could be a great story for the next rulebook and one which would show just how far above the static fluff of other games PP are willing to go.
I can see how potential issues could come up in some versions of play, but in the main rulebook they do deal with same warcaster matchups simply by illustrating that it's a funny old world so I don't think PP themselves would be particularly averse to the idea.
I honestly don't' see it happening (the cross faction switch). Simply because PP would have to do it across all factions. Who would split off from Cryx? Retribution? Menoth?
Not to mention its impossible for Hordes armies. Your much more likely to get a 3rd incarnation of a caster before one jumps faction.
Having one or 2 characters change faction would be interesting.
Having one from each faction switch would be overdone, and contrived.
Cryxian Karchev would be very cool though.
If we see Defection Warcasters I think we'd see them manifest as new Casters and not variants of established ones.
Young Khadoran girl discovers a talent for warcasting is trained by Khador but doesn't like their brutal tactics and defects to Cygnar. Open's up interesting way to get cross faction spells and tech, I guess technically Merc's do that now but here's hoping.
I'm thinking that Karchev will somehow escape, granting him eStatus. Not that I'm against a Cryxian Karchev, but somehow I don't think it'll work out that way.
Sparks wrote:If we see Defection Warcasters I think we'd see them manifest as new Casters and not variants of established ones.
Young Khadoran girl discovers a talent for warcasting is trained by Khador but doesn't like their brutal tactics and defects to Cygnar. Open's up interesting way to get cross faction spells and tech, I guess technically Merc's do that now but here's hoping.
That is almost exactly what Mikael Kreoss is. He was khador born, but is now the menite poster boy.
I love the idea of a possible Cryx eKarchev as well. I definitely love how the dynamic PP fluff makes this sort of thing a possibility.
I reckon if PP were to release a small handful of epic casters that work for a different faction it’d add more character to the game. Fluff wise it would add more character and gameplay wise it’d add a strange new dynamic as far as warcasters are concerned.
However, if PP were to release “defection” warcasters to every faction, it would cheapen the concept. The only way I can see this concept work is in its rarity as well as thematic implementation (good->evil/evil->good).
It would definitely cheapen the concept if PP were to start swapping warcasters all over the place, but one or two could be very interesting. The main thing for me is would it make a great story for it to happen? The answer seems to be that it could if done well. There are all kinds of possibilities for it, and as long as it doesn't 'break' the game or really go against the principles they've established it could be done.
Cryx don't need someone to be alive to interogate them. Infact its easier if they're not.
Deneghra talking to Haley and warning her about Khador attack and the plan to assasinate Nemo was strange too.
It could just be general Cryxian manipulation, but that coupled with Asphyxious's reaction at the capture of Karchev, Deneghra seems to have her own plans.
One thing that's strange about the latest story arch is that Cryx are all over the place. Aren't they supposed to be keeping a low profile and not attract attention until Toruk is ready to strike.
I don't think everyone will get defection casters if they do them. One, the factions really don't like each other, so a caster going between them would raise a lot of eyebrows among their new comrades. And I don't think any of the other factions would take a Cryxian into their ranks and the Retribution would not take any human magic user as they think that's the reason their gods are dying. Maybe one could go mercenary, but that's the most I could see.
Second would be trying to balance it, unless the new version got all new spells that were in line with their faction. And then that would defeat the purpose. I just don't see cross faction casters happening any time soon.
But maybe Karchev will steal a Slayer to put himself into. Or Deathjack! eKarchev bending Deathjack to his will and wearing it as armor would be awesome! About as likely as traitor casters though.
But maybe Karchev will steal a Slayer to put himself into. Or Deathjack! eKarchev bending Deathjack to his will and wearing it as armor would be awesome! About as likely as traitor casters though.
Deathjack would just go nom nom nom.
The Deathjack has always been hinted at that it might one day break free of cryx control and attack the cryx.
I love the Deathjack, I wish there was an epic version, I think warjacks should get that treatment
I'd say character jacks are like Epic Jacks, and I could see if PP wanted to making Legendary Jacks but considering what a powerful force jacks like the Deathjack and Ol'Rowdy already bring to the table it would be very hard to 'update' them I think
I guess so, it's more there story arch i'd like to see progress than actual gameplay wise.
Don't know if there was any more word on the deathjack since since it was defeated by Gorten. Deathjack is supposed to be indestructable so it should have repaired it's self.
obsidianaura wrote:I thought the Skulls of hate were made by the cryx to control the deathjack?
Technically, the Skulls of Hate ARE the Deathjack. If the DJ is destroyed, the Skulls are a pair of extremely powerful necromantic artifacts that ye olde adventurer would be a fool not to loot. Unfortunately, they're also capable of slowly taking over their owner, compelling him to attach them to a Steamjack. Once they're attached, the thing rapidly transforms into a new Deathjack which eats the poor sod that made it.
So maybe this is just me hoping. But does anyone else think that Ret finally may get an epic caster or two in the next book? My logic behind this is it appears that Gorshade may make another attempt to kill Nyssor which would allow Ret to finally get an epic.
Kaelyssa seems to be the most likely since she was the one chasing Zerkova all over creation trying to get Nyssor back. It would hard to do a Ravyn that would play better than her current incarnation so it would probably be a pGaspy/eGaspy situation where they are almost mirror opposites.
Sometimes the reason a caster goes epic isn't unveiled until the book with that caster. Epic Nemo and epic Goreshade in legends are good examples of this.
With that in mind, I want to see epic Vyros. His agenda of expanding Ios and becoming a conqueror is not at all what the rest of the retribution are about and could propel the entire faction much deeper into the story and get ios much more involved in the wars of the iron kingdoms at large. Ossyan's recent victories might actually hamper Vyros or force him to be more direct so I'm interested to see how that plays out.
I think that RoS is ready to epic some casters, as well. They recieved the most influx, by far, of new hotness with Wrath (as it should be), and are now much closer to being on par with the other factions with regards to variety. If past history is any indication, the first casters to go epic will probably be the original 'core' casters -Rahn, Ravyn, Kaelissa, Vyros. The Wrath story didn't really include any of these guys to any great extent, so it is kind of hard to speculate.
He infiltrated Point Bourne and helped Khador get across the river. After that he proceed to get whipped by Deneghra, barely making it back to the city - to warn of the Cryx threat. He currently is with Irusk rallying Khadors forces.
He infiltrated Point Bourne and helped Khador get across the river. After that he proceed to get whipped by Deneghra, barely making it back to the city - to warn of the Cryx threat. He currently is with Irusk rallying Khadors forces.
So more than likely not going to be getting eStrakhov, then :(
Mind you, that's probably a good thing, what with the fact that I haven't even played a game of this yet
I like Legendary as the verbiage for tier 3 casters
Right now every Warmachine faction (maybe not Ret) has two casters I could see getting the Legendary treatment, but if the current slow down on new releases I'm not counting on seeing too many of them soon.
Ahhhh...... As a reinforcement for a different theme; isn't it nice to get all of the sourcebooks for new material in a timely manner? I just logged out of a GW-themed gripe session, and thought I'd mention that.
Denny warning her sister of the assassination attempt on Nemo makes perfect sense. She was needed for the defense of the city, and during the Khador invasion Sloan comments that she would have been exceptionally helpful. With Hailey gone, Cygnar loses, but Khador still takes a decent number of casualties to let Cryx come in behind them and mop up with out much effort.
As for why she did not kill Karchev, it could be some deal she made with the Old Witch in return for the info on Malathrax and the Athanc, as well as not simply butchering Denny on the spot.
Asphxyious probably knows about it, but likely would not like it much. I Highly doubt she would betray Asphxyious unless he did something to warrant it, which I also doubt. She seems to be a True Believer and he values her loyalty.
While I love the aforementioned little fan blurb on Cryxian Karchev, I don't think it will happen. PP seems very reluctant to kill Any playable characters, and turn coating would be tantamount to death.
Aduro wrote:Denny warning her sister of the assassination attempt on Nemo makes perfect sense. She was needed for the defense of the city, and during the Khador invasion Sloan comments that she would have been exceptionally helpful. With Hailey gone, Cygnar loses, but Khador still takes a decent number of casualties to let Cryx come in behind them and mop up with out much effort.
As for why she did not kill Karchev, it could be some deal she made with the Old Witch in return for the info on Malathrax and the Athanc, as well as not simply butchering Denny on the spot.
Asphxyious probably knows about it, but likely would not like it much. I Highly doubt she would betray Asphxyious unless he did something to warrant it, which I also doubt. She seems to be a True Believer and he values her loyalty.
While I love the aforementioned little fan blurb on Cryxian Karchev, I don't think it will happen. PP seems very reluctant to kill Any playable characters, and turn coating would be tantamount to death.
I agree with no turn coating. The easiest resolution to this would be perhaps to have him rescued. I'd like to see him be combined with a cryx jack and then escape though.
Aduro wrote:
While I love the aforementioned little fan blurb on Cryxian Karchev, I don't think it will happen. PP seems very reluctant to kill Any playable characters, and turn coating would be tantamount to death.
I agree with no turn coating. The easiest resolution to this would be perhaps to have him rescued. I'd like to see him be combined with a cryx jack and then escape though.
I agree, that being said it does provide the excellent staging for somebody to get an epic - depending how the events go down. I don't see Irusk doing it, but Starkhov could probably pull it off - this is assuming Karchev just doesn't escape himself.
Aduro wrote:
While I love the aforementioned little fan blurb on Cryxian Karchev, I don't think it will happen. PP seems very reluctant to kill Any playable characters, and turn coating would be tantamount to death.
I agree with no turn coating. The easiest resolution to this would be perhaps to have him rescued. I'd like to see him be combined with a cryx jack and then escape though.
I agree, that being said it does provide the excellent staging for somebody to get an epic - depending how the events go down. I don't see Irusk doing it, but Starkhov could probably pull it off - this is assuming Karchev just doesn't escape himself.
Hmmm maybe... but how do you escape with no arms or legs?
in my mind karcheve somehow gets away, but horrible mutilated by the cryx method of keeping him alive...also, i here him saying "onccceee waasssss a mannnn" kinda like cobra commander from the old gijoe cartoon
It'd be a bit strange for the cryx to build him a suit. Although maybe they'd do it thinking Karchev had his will bound and would serve Cryx. Then he'd escape later but be couldn't be removed from the suit as it'd kill him.
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