Hi,
I only have the German version of the GW newsletter, so someone else can post the English version please.

The newsletter describes the new direction that GW wants to take with White Dwarf starting with the July issue.
GW wants to make the White Dwarf the central and first medium for everyone to get first hand information on new GW releases, that's right: before internet forums or sales staff get to know about the stuff. It also wants to put more serious content into the WD like in old times (we know that the WD Codex Sororitas and the new Vampire monster rules are part of this direction). At the same time, the WD will be released several days later than usual, closer to or after the release date of the month. This is another step to regain full control on information flow on new releases, obviously pointed at fighting early leaks.

I will post my comment later.

Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

Still, hardly a reason to complain.

Me, glad I've got my Sub!

Seems out of sync with today's world of social media and readily available information. I finally lapsed my WD subscription to save the money. I'm happy for them if they can make the magazine relevant, but less so if it means I've gotta be shelling out money to keep on top of rules developments.

Also, I know they've taken conscious shifts away from this strategy in the past.

This may get me to renew my subscription...maybe.

Soooooo... rather than wanting to be on the cutting edge of social media, technology and information, they want to go back to the 80's and 90's. Whatever.

I still don't think I'll be buying a WD, and I'm even a Sisters player. There isn't a magazine in the world I'm willing to pay $8 for at this point.

Mr Mystery wrote:Still, hardly a reason to complain.

No, we'll wait the 6 months until this trend stop to do this.


I apologize ahead of time for anything I say that's exceedingly cynical for the rest of the thread, I can't help myself.

For years now I've been hoping GW releases occasional "patches" to their games to rebalance problems as they once did with Chapter Approved.

GW realized nobody played Terminators so they gave them a 5+ save.
GW realized transports had problematic rules so they added access points and fire points.

...and they charged us for it.

I'm not complaining that we were charged for these "patches". I'm complaining now that Chapter Approved is gone.

Here's to this "new" and "relevant" White Dwarf starts having more Chapter-Approved-like articles and less advertisements and "battle reports" where the army-of-the-month autowins (except Tyranids).

I am so pleased to hear this. White Dwarf used to be a great magazine full of great articles and useful information. I look forward to a return to former glory. Thank god GW do listen to people from time to time

I'm good with this. I like rumors as much as the next guy, but I'm really ok with "confirmations" coming when they come.

I also like the idea of buying White Dwarf, I just rarely find that it pays off. It's a good way to support my FLGS without buying more minis I don't need.

While it's a dumb reason to finally improve the magazine, at least they're improving it.

GW seems to flip flop quite considerably.

Creeping Dementia wrote:There isn't a magazine in the world I'm willing to pay $8 for at this point.

I was going to quip about how I give $40 to the Transformers Club yearly for only 6 magazine(OK, OK, comic with interviews and previews) issues and a free membership incentive figure(generally a repainted $13 USD Deluxe size), until I realized that still only $6.66 an issue...

Platuan4th wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:There isn't a magazine in the world I'm willing to pay $8 for at this point.

I was going to quip about how I give $40 to the Transformers Club yearly for only 6 issues and a free membership incentive figure(generally a repainted $13 USD Deluxe size), until I realized that still only $6.66 an issue...

I'll pay for things I like. I can't be the only one that pays $8 for a drink.

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

Translation: Our IP lawyers told us, they can't make the internet go away, so we decided to ignore it and concentrate on our inhouse print medium as sole information source for everyone. Our main goal to prevent sales staff and customers to learn about our products before the release is almost achieved, even when our second goal to sell products suffers from this

Polonius wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:There isn't a magazine in the world I'm willing to pay $8 for at this point.

I was going to quip about how I give $40 to the Transformers Club yearly for only 6 issues and a free membership incentive figure(generally a repainted $13 USD Deluxe size), until I realized that still only $6.66 an issue...

I'll pay for things I like. I can't be the only one that pays $8 for a drink.

Me too, I'm not ashamed to admit I occasionally buy White Dwarf.

As for how much I pay for a drink, whitedragon may know better, as last year's Adepticon is the last time I drank but for the life of me, I can't think of what they cost.

My point is, I'm at the point in my life where if $8 can buy me an hours worth of enjoyment... I consider that a pretty decent buy.

Absolutionis wrote:
I'm not complaining that we were charged for these "patches". I'm complaining now that Chapter Approved is gone.

Here's to this "new" and "relevant" White Dwarf starts having more Chapter-Approved-like articles and less advertisements and "battle reports"

I echo this sentiment completely. If White Dwarf contains relevant information, I have no issue ponying up some dough for it.

Creeping Dementia wrote:Soooooo... rather than wanting to be on the cutting edge of social media, technology and information, they want to go back to the 80's and 90's.

Go back? Don't you realise that this newfangled interweb thing is just a fad? Print media is where the future is at!

Also, look out for GW's big summer release: The Games Workshop Kerosene Painting Lantern! When the market drops out of this crazy electricimathingy, GW will be right there on the cutting edge!

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

+1 to this. It is a poor attempt to regain customers they have lost. It is at best a marketing scheme packaged with a small consumer benefit. I'll reserve my judgement serveral months from now because chances are this new direction won't last. To little, too late GW.

Kroothawk wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

Translation: Our IP lawyers told us, they can't make the internet go away, so we decided to ignore it and concentrate on our inhouse print medium as sole information source for everyone. Our main goal to prevent sales staff and customers to learn about our products before the release is almost achieved, even when our second goal to sell products suffers from this

Translation: Our senior management is a relic of a bygone age, convinced that it should remain in an evermore adversarial position with the online communities that have sprung up when we aborted our own because we could not make it say precisely what we wanted it to.

We will therefore attempt to stifle communication with the hobbyists yet further and, rather than listen to feedback that might avoid further gak like the poombagor or the fugly monsters of 'storm (in a teacup) of magic' fame, we will just shunt figures out onto our shelves and expect people to leap to attention and buy them like good, obedient drones, despite the fact that many won't even be aware of their existence in time. We will then look shocked when our sales fall yet further and reassure ourselves with a nice cosy price hike.

Hooo-fething-rah.

Further come the lines of division between the company and it's consumer. Nearer drift their online savvy customers to their more approachable rivals.

Bring on the serious competition, lets hope it can save GW from it's self. Or kill it and let something less totally shuttered rise up and take it's share.

I get em free as a perk from my FLGS, so I'm not complaining in the slightest As for them cutting off rumors, we already knew that. Rumors will still find a way out though. They always do.

Wait a minute...

that's right: before internet forums or sales staff get to know about the stuff.

...
At the same time, the WD will be released several days later than usual, closer to or after the release date of the month.

Anyone else seeing the flaw in the plan here...?

The staff won't know what they're selling (supposedly) until after they are released!?

I think White Dwarf in its current form is a dying beast. I don't have any figures, but I'd assume the the poor content of the magazine would result in poor customer retention. It'll be interesting to see the extent of reform that is implemented, and how much is 'buzz'.

Regardless, I'm not above buying an issue if it contains some quality content- but it must be quality.

Won't buy one despite the change. I'll just DL anything relevant either once they've put it on their site or if someone else has done it for them.

i would hope that instead of trying to kill rumors entirly that they would instead look to create them. tell us whats coming early, so the customer base can plan and dream and otherwise build anticipation around the product. it also allows much hype to be done before hand. other companies with a reputation for secrecy do this, a good example is the apple IPAD release. we new it was coming and was all hyped for it months before release, and knew what to expect. if we can do the same thing with (lets face it simaler price bracketing) then i see nothing but good as a result. its not like they have some competing company that makes "battlemace" or something nearly identical yet diffrent and can steal or 1 up their ideas.

on topic. glad to see WD finally getting more relevant. hopefully this will include battle reports that actually make sense and arent clearly staged.

Kroothawk wrote:
GW wants to make the White Dwarf the central and first medium for everyone to get first hand information on new GW releases, that's right: before internet forums or sales staff get to know about the stuff.

Really? Sorry GW, but I dont care enough about your products to spend $9 on a magazine just so I can get a product announcement a few days or so earlier. If this means I miss out on something (like the rumored WH Quest Sept thing) then so be it.

The only way I would start buying a mag that expensive would be for great content, like it used to have 10 years ago. Ill believe that kind of content is back when I see it, or hear it from people on the internet as the case may be. Im not going to be picking up issues just to see if it got better. You show me first, then Ill open my wallet.

Good thing I can go into my FLGS and thumb through the new WD rather than pay nearly $10 for it.

WOW GW! Way to be late on the ball...I haven't bought a white dwarf in over a year I think, maybe longer than that. I miss the day when it was filled with interesting articles or awesomely converted armies which helped spawn my imagination, thinking about Rob Hawkins amongst other's armies which I found very inspirational. As well as Chapter approved where they would have an alternative way to play an army or other such cool things.

That's what I miss, the creativity from the game. If I want to see a catalog, I'll visit GW online, if I want to know how to paint something, I'll check out the many amazing blogs around this fancy Interwebz thingy.

Boiled down, unless they really change and head back to the white dwarf's of the late 80's, 90's or earlier 00's I will continue not to buy nor promote GW in anyway shape or form...

I'd much rather buy No Quarter or shell money on Infinity...maybe a little Warmahordes...

I agree, unless they really go back in their roots, so far there are much better sources for their content

Also someone needs to make a WD App for smartphones

Preferably at 1/3 the cost!

fascinating.

Well I certainly hope the new, relevant White Dwarf content will be heralded with a price readjustment to show how lucky you all are to be buying the monthly catalogue for the company...

Perhaps they'll start printing it on recycled toilet paper to highlight the lettering detail and raise the price to reaffirm it's new worth! We could call it fineprint!


/selfharm

... uhh...

Well.

It appears that Kroot, insaniak and MGS already covered what I would have said.

Conclusion: GW’s refusal to embrace the digital age continues in yet another ham-fisted attempt to control everything they do. They are an absurd company in steady death spiral, and their latest insane (and inane) attempt to control/ignore the internet is just another turn on their inevitable slide into oblivion.


[EDIT]: Ha! ‘Fineprint’. Wonderful. MGS wins the thread.

Polonius wrote:My point is, I'm at the point in my life where if $8 can buy me an hours worth of enjoyment... I consider that a pretty decent buy.

I'm with you on that. Heck I spend more at a movie theater than the magazine would cost; however, I haven't seen an issue of WD that I would actually get any enjoyment out of, so I guess it's subjective. I will see if the mag changes enough to make itself relevant for me to purchase and wouldn't flinch at the price if I decide it's worthwhile.

Thank goodness I have a friend that is a GW store manager I get WD free every month

I miss that perk...What I would like to see is white dwarf have cool alternative ways to play the game, such as a balance version of movie marines or other such things...I wish the game lived up to it's fluff, but as soon as I said that I am reminded about Mat Ward's fluff...

Here I come Infinity and Warmahordes...so long GW...

Can someone of the English speakers post the original newsletter text?

LOL. GW just keeps digging...they brought in the backhoe this time.

We will buy WD because of the content not the 'scoops'...and if we get a scoop on what's in it, we're more likely to buy.

None of their products are impulse buys, I do not go to their stores and WD is NOT gonna get me to drive there. So no news means, I do not go...and no sales becasue PP tells me what's coming and I buy that.

Kroothawk wrote:Can someone of the English speakers post the original newsletter text?

I would if they'd sent one yet.

Got me to subscribe, however no new exciting black box? No forum mae hype for new armies? Thats a shame!

Here's the truth of it...

Leaks will still happen and if leaks don't happen then there will be a race between folks who do buy WD to be the first to make an announcement on the forums, so...

There's still no need for most of us to buy the silly magazine.

I would never buy a WD I'm glad its free for me.

I stopped buying regularly when they began devoting a third of the magazine to LotR. I stopped buying altogether four or five years ago when I realized that it contained almost nothing worthwhile. I really miss the days when I looked forward to picking up WD at the FLGS every month, but I fear that even with these changes, it still won't be worth having.

That, and I just can't stand the thought of giving money to the control freaks that are GW. I won't give any more money to that company until they get their act together. Until then, I can buy second hand to grow my armies or start new ones.

Thats all I do is buy second hand thru other distributers I support miniature market all the way.

I've never seen a company openly attack their own marketing opportunities.

Thats GW for you!

Well stating that they want WD to be the first place that you find out about new releases is ridiculous. Good luck with that one GW (sarcasm).

As for improving the content, good luck with that one GW (genuine).

I just hope GW's weird behavior doesn't affect the Fantasy Flight RPGs. And no, I still won't buy a WD.

I have friends who work at the worldhammer world. Who needs WD or the website.

You know what this thread needs? A pinata in the likeness of Tom Kirby - full of finecast miniatures.

I reckon it’s because GW has become too big for their boots. Back in the day, they’d be happy with anything that would generate further sales. Now sales and marketing is apparently only a good thing if they are done in a GW approved fashion.

I suspect GW are only just starting to realise that their business plan is not as immortal as they first thought. Now the question is, if this was a reaction to the negative feedback from finecost/embargo/price rise, how come it took a crises for such a small change to occur?

candy.man wrote:Now the question is, if this was a reaction to the negative feedback from finecost/embargo/price rise, how come it took a crises for such a small change to occur?

Finecast was released 28th May, less than a month ago. July and August WD were already at the printers then, with WD Codex Sororitas and Vampire monster rules. So no, can't be a direct reaction on Finecast feedback.

Kroothawk wrote:Hi,
I only have the German version of the GW newsletter, so someone else can post the English version please.

The newsletter describes the new direction that GW wants to take with White Dwarf starting with the July issue.
GW wants to make the White Dwarf the central and first medium for everyone to get first hand information on new GW releases, that's right: before internet forums or sales staff get to know about the stuff. It also wants to put more serious content into the WD like in old times (we know that the WD Codex Sororitas and the new Vampire monster rules are part of this direction). At the same time, the WD will be released several days later than usual, closer to or after the release date of the month. This is another step to regain full control on information flow on new releases, obviously pointed at fighting early leaks.

I will post my comment later.

I'd like to go off and go on a rampent tangent, but I'm not really seeing anything here as far as a roumor, news, or ... anything.


See a bunch of standard GW double talk, but no real anything other then- "Wish WD was a mag worthy of something more then a sales pamphlet... "( FROM Games Workshop, THEMSELVES, no less!)

WHO is the assclown behind all of these nonstarter decisions going on in the ivory tower over there, BoBo the clown? Whoever it is,get rid of them- NOW!

I mean seriously, the level of suck that these people continue to cherade around as running a game company is on par with a monkey show.


Too little, too late GW. + 2

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

Translation: Our IP lawyers told us, they can't make the internet go away, so we decided to ignore it and concentrate on our inhouse print medium as sole information source for everyone. Our main goal to prevent sales staff and customers to learn about our products before the release is almost achieved, even when our second goal to sell products suffers from this

Translation: Our senior management is a relic of a bygone age, convinced that it should remain in an evermore adversarial position with the online communities that have sprung up when we aborted our own because we could not make it say precisely what we wanted it to.

We will therefore attempt to stifle communication with the hobbyists yet further and, rather than listen to feedback that might avoid further gak like the poombagor or the fugly monsters of 'storm (in a teacup) of magic' fame, we will just shunt figures out onto our shelves and expect people to leap to attention and buy them like good, obedient drones, despite the fact that many won't even be aware of their existence in time. We will then look shocked when our sales fall yet further and reassure ourselves with a nice cosy price hike.

Hooo-fething-rah.

Further come the lines of division between the company and it's consumer. Nearer drift their online savvy customers to their more approachable rivals.

Bring on the serious competition, lets hope it can save GW from it's self. Or kill it and let something less totally shuttered rise up and take it's share.

^ This.

Tragically it is so.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

First, let's not get into the whole behind the technology curve thing.

Back when I actually bothered with White Dwarf magazine:

1) it was $4.99 an issue.
2) if you subscribed, you would get a discount off the cover price.
3) if you subscribed, you would get an army box set of your choice (eg. a box of 10 Tactical Space Marines, a box of 20 IG Catachans, etc.). (this got reduced to a metal blister later...).
4) if you subscribed, you would receive your copy before the GW stores got theirs.
5) and you got actual content worth reading.

The biggest problem WD had at the time was that it was dedicating precious magazine space to that Lord of the Rings game.

They got rid of all of that...except the wasted space dedicated to LotR. And they kept the subscription discount, but raised the prices so you paid more overall, anyway.

And now, they say they will refocus the magazine to give us actual content again?

They are basically admitting that they were publishing crap!

What's worst is that they were charging more for it! And not giving away freebies with that crap! And you got that crap later than everyone else!

And there's no guarantee that they will continue this trend. It may well be possible that they use this announcement to lure some subscribers back, and then revert to business as usual. Forgive me for my cynicism. It's just hard not to think that way when it comes to GW's antics.

The first White Dwarf that comes out with a Chapter Approved article will be the first White Dwarf that I've bought in six years.

redstripe wrote:The first White Dwarf that comes out with a Chapter Approved article will be the first White Dwarf that I've bought in six years.

Agreed:

Give us quarterly Chapter Approved codexes (like kroot, feral orks and such) and then other CA supplements monthly, I will be happy. I feel that regular official rules alternating full codex releases gives WD value.

I have never had a problem with the price. Like many fandom publications, they are expensive compared to a magazine on the rack. I have no problem with it. I am never surprised that the people who are demanding 'the wave of the future' are the first to steal a publication and the last to pay for it when it does turn over to a digital form. Entitled thieves will steal regardless the medium.

nkelsch wrote:I am never surprised that the people who are demanding 'the wave of the future' are the first to steal a publication and the last to pay for it when it does turn over to a digital form. Entitled thieves will steal regardless the medium.

Umm... where did that come from? Where is anyone talking about that?

Hey guys, I'm all for poking fun at GW's insane approach to marketing... but this is actually good news, right? WD being worth buying?

A shame about not sending out black boxes / info /etc... but I'd love to have a decent WD to check out each month. Might even get a subscription if it's good enough...

I wish them luck. The reality is that the only thing of interest to me in current white dwarfs is the battle reports. Three to five years ago there was alot of neat conversion stuff and terrain ideas, but now the focus seems to be on standard miniatures and prepackaged GW terrain, which is pretty boring. My wife buys me a subscription for X-mas from time to time, otherwise I'd never see one. I suspect this is an effort to save WD from going down the tubes more than anything else - it can't be paying for itself in the digital age.

Okay... so GW cant control information flow outside of their 6 month "window" as it is, so their solution to the problem is to tighten their fists and to make their window even smaller... I dont see the point... the smart thing to do would be to release information farther out...

RiTides wrote:Hey guys, I'm all for poking fun at GW's insane approach to marketing... but this is actually good news, right? WD being worth buying?

I'm certainly all for them including actual content in there again... I would love to see periodic Chapter Approved lists or campaign and scenario ideas and the like.

It's purely the decision to use White Dwarf as the primary source of information that I find ludicrous. Print media is dying a slow and gruesome death. Using a magazine as a marketing vehicle is a doomed enterprise unless you're giving it away for free. They would be far better off (says this armchair critic who doesn't work in publishing) using White Dwarf primarily as a source of actual gaming content and leaving the serious marketing to the website.

People will only pay for ads for so long before they realise that's what they're doing and stop doing it. But keep giving us new ways to play the game, and we'll keep buying.


Unfortunatley though, I find it hard to be optimistic about proposed improvements to White Dwarf. They go through this in cycles... They'll pull out all of the stops for 6 months or so, and then the guys currently writing the articles start running out of ideas, and the gaming content once again starts dwindling. And before you know it, you're once again paying a premium price for a glossy book of ads with the occasional beginner level painting guide.

This is a great move. Print is the way of the future and if you don't believe us, just look at the success of newspaper and print reporting outlets.

chaos0xomega wrote:... the smart thing to do would be to release information farther out...

No chaos, the smart thing to do would be to acknowledge that they cannot control information.

Got to have to agree with HMBC.

Lets face it. If actual countries are not able to control information on what is coming and going out of their sphere of influence, how can a global game company do the same?

"The Grand Delusion of Illusion" is what corporate GW is believing in itself.

It beggars belief.
Well almost. GW make the craziest counter intuitive business decisions.

So we sort of expect it.

Just inform your customers GW and treat them like adults even if some of them are minors.
It isn't hard.

Well if this doesn't work out they could resort to making announcements by posting info on a notice board behind some boxes in the farthest recesses of their deepest basement.

RiTides wrote:Hey guys, I'm all for poking fun at GW's insane approach to marketing... but this is actually good news, right? WD being worth buying?

A shame about not sending out black boxes / info /etc... but I'd love to have a decent WD to check out each month. Might even get a subscription if it's good enough...

Supposedly there's an ulterior motive regarding the black boxes.

Some less than reputable stores were reportedly claiming that GW would "never, ever, ever" send them black boxes--but neglecting to mention that these shops had, at one point, been receiving black boxes. The reason they were no longer getting them was because rather than painting the pieces up or showing them off, the shops were selling the sprues on eBay.

I wish someone would smack the stupid out of these GW execs once and for all. It's like one step forward, five steps back.

- MightyG

I haven't, nor will I ever, purchase a White Dwarf. Good job GW, you make me sad :(

I'll agree that, in general, using a print vehicle as a marketing tool is making less and less sense these days.

Unfortunately, we don't have an "in general" situation here. We're talking about what is essentially a highly focused, niche market. A print magazine is still a perfectly valid way to spread information in this type of market. Go to a Borders/Barnes&Nobles/whatever big book store is in your town. Look in the hobby magazine section. You'll see a ton of specialized magazines devoted to hobbies that could easily be replaced with a website. As a rule (and again, this is a generalization that tends to be true), niche hobbyists prefer solid artifacts they can hold onto. A print magazine is such an artifact.

Here's an aside... Wizards of the Coast used to print Dungeon and Dragon magazines. They stopped doing so and instead put it online as a paid download pdf in an effort to "embrace the online environment". Readership dropped dramatically and immediately. Piracy of the information contained therein exploded. It was generally considered to be a bad idea.

White Dwarf has definitely turned into a glossy collection of ads over the last several years. Adding usable content in the form of rules updates or genuine previews of upcoming items adds value to the magazine. Converting the magazine to an online version or foregoing it altogether by spreading the information via a freely accessible website takes value away.

Now for my opinion!

As a niche hobbyist, I like White Dwarf. I had a subscription. I don't now. I buy only the issues I find interesting. If the average issue has new rules, I am more likely to find it interesting. If it has useful hobby (conversion/painting/etc.) articles, I am more likely to find it interesting. This announcement comes as a good thing to me.

For those of you preaching the end of print media and the almighty reign of the electronic word, I leave you with this. My bathroom has a magazine rack, not an ethernet port!

Kanluwen wrote:Supposedly there's an ulterior motive regarding the black boxes.

Some less than reputable stores were reportedly claiming that GW would "never, ever, ever" send them black boxes--but neglecting to mention that these shops had, at one point, been receiving black boxes. The reason they were no longer getting them was because rather than painting the pieces up or showing them off, the shops were selling the sprues on eBay.

And that's a good enough reason to stop black boxes worldwide?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Supposedly there's an ulterior motive regarding the black boxes.

Some less than reputable stores were reportedly claiming that GW would "never, ever, ever" send them black boxes--but neglecting to mention that these shops had, at one point, been receiving black boxes. The reason they were no longer getting them was because rather than painting the pieces up or showing them off, the shops were selling the sprues on eBay.

And that's a good enough reason to stop black boxes worldwide?

If they can't track down which shops it is, I guess it is to them.

I didn't say it was a "good" plan.

So WD is MAYBE going back to what is used to be back in 1998 before it took a nose dive?

That is an insult on two levels. First, WD should have never changed, but GW sees dollar signs everywhere, and second, people are going to be fooled by GW yet again as the magazine will just go up in price, and continue to be a monthly catalog with MAYBE a new hobby related thing you can use in your games once every 12 issues.

Yeah, I can't wait until Chapter Approved comes back, just so that the tournament scene can just ignore it anyway, like it always has.

Kriswall wrote:For those of you preaching the end of print media and the almighty reign of the electronic word, I leave you with this. My bathroom has a magazine rack, not an ethernet port!

My bathroom doesn't need an ethernet port. I've got a wireless laptop!

I agree with you. I've never bought WD, but I'm willing to try it if its worth it. I buy Shonen Jump, a manga magazine, and I get it for all the good stuff inside. It costs me 5 USD a month, and I get at least 50 USD worth of content at least. If WD could be like that, I'd get it.

Even if we agree that GW is a niche brand, that does not imho, justify some of the most peculiar business practice that I have ever encountered.

Sorry but I really don't believe the "niche" tag.
I know this won't win a lot of support but it is a fallacy that people buy into (pun intended) to justify to themselves GW's marketing decisions.
The whole thing seems self delusional.

Finecast might be a niche product, since by definition a niche is a small hole.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Perhaps they'll start printing it on recycled toilet paper to highlight the lettering detail and raise the price to reaffirm it's new worth! We could call it fineprint!

I was going to say something witty, but I can't hope to match this


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I just hope GW's weird behavior doesn't affect the Fantasy Flight RPGs. And no, I still won't buy a WD.

Don't worry. FFG is competently managed, they're no GW.

BuFFo wrote:Yeah, I can't wait until Chapter Approved comes back, just so that the tournament scene can just ignore it anyway, like it always has.

Chapter Approved was never intended for the tournament scene. It was intended for the vastly larger part of GW's customer base that plays casually.

Kriswall wrote:I'll agree that, in general, using a print vehicle as a marketing tool is making less and less sense these days.

Unfortunately, we don't have an "in general" situation here. We're talking about what is essentially a highly focused, niche market. A print magazine is still a perfectly valid way to spread information in this type of market. Go to a Borders/Barnes&Nobles/whatever big book store is in your town. Look in the hobby magazine section. You'll see a ton of specialized magazines devoted to hobbies that could easily be replaced with a website. As a rule (and again, this is a generalization that tends to be true), niche hobbyists prefer solid artifacts they can hold onto. A print magazine is such an artifact.

I would go to my local Borders or Barnes & Noble that houses all of those wonderful magazines but both shops have closed their doors---as both companies are currently close to bankruptcy and/or being sold .

After using my IPad for the last few weeks---I can't see the future of print. I can search documents quicker via digital format---it doesn't degrade when I flip the page---and it costs no real material goods to produce. I can change books with a touch and only carry one device. I can understand your argument--and I do agree the last trees on the island will be niche magazines---I still think they're all going to starve though.

I think the only real reason for GW to continue to push WD is control (hard to pirate paper---unless you take the time to scan it). That and they seem to have little vision.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry but I really don't believe the "niche" tag.
I know this won't win a lot of support but it is a fallacy that people buy into.

Fortunately for GW, the fact that they are a niche business, selling a niche product is not contingent on your belief or acceptance. It is a somewhat addictive product that is not readily available to the same extant through other sources. Like it or not, believe it or not, this affords them the option to do some things that would result in utter disaster in other industries.

Take the recent price increase, for example. I live in the Baltimore/Washington DC area. There are plenty of gaming stores and more specifically GW stores around. I am friends with many of the managers. My education, both undergraduate and graduate is in business management and analysis. I ask how things are going. I'm interested. The price increase did not negatively impact sales AT ALL. Sales went up. Most people will grumble a little and spend the same $50 they were planning on spending last week. The real world isn't full of internet trolls who see every business decision as a sign that the Corporate Endtimes(tm) are upon us. If I had to hazard a guess, the vast majority of people on this forum swearing that they will never buy another GW product will not follow through.

GW sells toy soldiers with a very high markup to a small market segment. This allows them to make stupid decisions that erode their margin and still stay in business. Their end of the day profit margin is shameful compared to what it could be if managed differently, but it is still a perfectly valid way to run a niche business.

insaniak wrote:

BuFFo wrote:Yeah, I can't wait until Chapter Approved comes back, just so that the tournament scene can just ignore it anyway, like it always has.

Chapter Approved was never intended for the tournament scene. It was intended for the vastly larger part of GW's customer base that plays casually.

Indeed. Tourney organizers are a very, very tiny portion of the total customer base

At any rate, I wouldn't mind seeing chapter approved, but only if it produced a good amount of non-marine stuff. Sisters got like one article...

Well hopefully the Hobbit is worth all these changes...

on the plus side more hobby and game content in the WD will be welcome.

We shall see if this is worth it, but I'm not thinking that it will be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Supposedly there's an ulterior motive regarding the black boxes.

Some less than reputable stores were reportedly claiming that GW would "never, ever, ever" send them black boxes--but neglecting to mention that these shops had, at one point, been receiving black boxes. The reason they were no longer getting them was because rather than painting the pieces up or showing them off, the shops were selling the sprues on eBay.

And that's a good enough reason to stop black boxes worldwide?

I'm sorry, have you met my friend Games Workshop?

Please excuse his face, he cut off his nose to spite it.

I don't doubt what you say Kriswall

Maybe they should stop trying to run a niche business and just run a business.

Who knows, the profit margins might improve.
It remains to be seen what the overall effect will be on sales (by volume not value)

Surely if GW is a Niche Company, the internet still remains a useful marketing tool?

People get WD for $8 where does that happen I have been paying $9 for about 3 years

WD used to be great. Reading White Dwarf at the bookstore on the way home from high school used to be something to look forward to every month. Later, when I began earning money, it was great to recieve my copy in the post. I had to to watch this great source of hobby content become basically worthless. I stopped buying it because it had no value.

When it had great content, I bought it and both myself and GW were happy.

When it went to the dogs, I stopped buying it and both myself and GW lost out.

If the want to make it worth my while, I will glady pay for something hobby related to read on the can. If not, then they can continue to lose out on my business. I will not be giving them the benefit of the doubt, as they have proven that they can't be trusted, so I will skim copies at the local GW for several months before dipping my toe in those murky waters again.

Boo... I don't want to shell out $9 to find out what's going on in the game. I hope spoilers persist.

Meh, I can live without spoilers.

Doesn't mean I'm going to be that interested in the product when it comes out.

Take the Storm of Magic release for instance.

Normally, by now, we have full advance orders with nice photos and sprue pics up on the GW site.

Instead I'm squinting at some fuzzy scan of White Dwarf and thinking "Eh, doesn't look good".

One thing GW has said in the past is that they don’t like having blurry bad photos showing up online and having everyone trash those rather than the ‘real’ photos that GW do themselves (putting aside that they’re usually blurry scans of GW photos, but that’s neither here nor there).

Now the normal response to something like that might be to ensure that you get your high quality professionally taken photographs out first – fight fire with fire in a sense, scoop the scoopers. Get the good pics onto the website and WD long before they come out. But GW isn’t normal. Their response is to show nothing... so now all we’ll get will be blurry scans of photos... the exact thing they want to stop.

Maybe GW don’t have a marketing department. Maybe they just have an irony department.

I think it's more of a case that the marketing department is aimed more towards crowds that y'know...don't spend time on forums like this.

When they had their own forums, they didn't do a terrible job of 'marketing' new releases. They'd drop hints and then bam, you'd suddenly see an updated "Sneak Peek" posting with some new shinies(usually one for each game system).

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

Also: We want to make sure that continued price rises are needed to maintain our bottom line, as less and less independent stockists will purchase our goods due the now woefully ignorant sales department being unable to pitch our goods.

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's more of a case that the marketing department is aimed more towards crowds that y'know...don't spend time on forums like this.

When they had their own forums, they didn't do a terrible job of 'marketing' new releases. They'd drop hints and then bam, you'd suddenly see an updated "Sneak Peek" posting with some new shinies(usually one for each game system).

Kan, come on. I know it’s a ‘thing’ of ours where you defend GW and I rag on you for being an apologist, but let’s be realistic here:

This is a highly reactionary decision that takes the opposite approach to what they should be doing. Rather than expanding their marketing opportunities, they are further shrinking into themselves in hope that they can ‘control the message’, which is simply impossible in this day and age. In a time where other companies are embracing electronic media and social networking GW seems to be recoiling. This is a mistake. Would Mantic, PP or half-a-dozen others be around if not for electronic media?

This isn’t the early 80’s, no matter how much GW wishes it was. Global communication isn’t just readily available it’s also really simple to do. And while I’m not about to go and call print media ‘dead’ as others have in this thread – I have no real knowledge on the subject beyond what I hear in the news – refocusing all their efforts on White Dwarf is a bad way to compete in this day and age. I’ve always said that they need to leverage WD more than what they do currently, but they cannot do it to the exclusion of all else.

Even GW’s target demographic – the 10-12 year olds – are online. I wasn’t when I was 10 (I had a 386 running Windows 3.0 and Commander Keen 4 was my fav game in the world – the Internet didn’t ‘exist’), but kids today are, and to ignore what almost every company in the world is leaping towards is utter madness and shows a lack of business sense on a scale since... well since the last major fuckup GW was part of (pick one – there’s many).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's more of a case that the marketing department is aimed more towards crowds that y'know...don't spend time on forums like this.

When they had their own forums, they didn't do a terrible job of 'marketing' new releases. They'd drop hints and then bam, you'd suddenly see an updated "Sneak Peek" posting with some new shinies(usually one for each game system).

Kan, come on. I know it’s a ‘thing’ of ours where you defend GW and I rag on you for being an apologist, but let’s be realistic here:

This is a highly reactionary decision that takes the opposite approach to what they should be doing. Rather than expanding their marketing opportunities, they are further shrinking into themselves in hope that they can ‘control the message’, which is simply impossible in this day and age. In a time where other companies are embracing electronic media and social networking GW seems to be recoiling. This is a mistake. Would Mantic, PP or half-a-dozen others be around if not for electronic media?

Don't know about Mantic/PP. Can't really know to be honest.

And I'm not arguing the point that GW's doing this correctly or anything like that. I've got no clue where in the heck you've gotten that idea from, but it might just be reading more into a post than was intended to be in it.

Yes. It's stupid of them to try to do this. But no matter how the flow of information comes, I get the feeling not everyone would be happy(and that's discounting whatever the hell GW's trying to accomplish) about how it's done. Even if it were simply requiring you to sign up for GW's site to access the content, I can almost guarantee that there would be people complaining about it saying that GW has too much of their personal information or other ridiculous statements such as that.

This isn’t the early 80’s, no matter how much GW wishes it was. Global communication isn’t just readily available it’s also really simple to do. And while I’m not about to go and call print media ‘dead’ as others have in this thread – I have no real knowledge on the subject beyond what I hear in the news – refocusing all their efforts on White Dwarf is a bad way to compete in this day and age. I’ve always said that they need to leverage WD more than what they do currently, but they cannot do it to the exclusion of all else.

Print media, quite frankly, is close to being dead. If you look at an issue of Fine Scale Modeler compared to an issue from 2004, there's a big difference. The majority of their content has gone from being reader submissions to being kit reviews and the classifieds section has gotten to take up even more of the magazine.

Even GW’s target demographic – the 10-12 year olds – are online. I wasn’t when I was 10 (I had a 386 running Windows 3.0 and Commander Keen 4 was my fav game in the world – the Internet didn’t ‘exist’), but kids today are, and to ignore what almost every company in the world is leaping towards is utter madness and shows a lack of business sense on a scale since... well since the last major fuckup GW was part of (pick one – there’s many).

Again.

The goal in controlling 'the message' is not simply just to make "White Dwarf the news source". It's to control the announcement and timing of the announcement. If they're smart and do previews within their "What's New" section--it just might not be terrible.

Come on HBMC, you know kids these days don't use the internet. It's a series of tubes that frightens and confuses them.

Or wait, that's the folks in retirement homes/GW offices.

This is can only be good

H.B.M.C. wrote:Would Mantic, PP or half-a-dozen others be around if not for electronic media?

Honestly, HBMC... This 'supposed switch' that GW is stating their doing, is very similar to the way PP runs their magazine now (it consistently sells out at my FLGS, but of course YMMV). Funny enough, though, No Quarter (the PP mag for those of ya'll reading that don't know), is very similar to the old WD mags - eg. actual bat reps**, hobby stuff, contests, player interactions, fluff, etc.

(**I remember one bat rep had a new warlock model coming out, and the player using the new warlock lost fairly badly in the bat rep, though they did cite that since he was a new warlock, he'd take some time getting used to)

Just my 2 cents.

Yeah but compare GW and PP.

PP previews their upcoming releases well ahead of their release. GW does not.

PP apologises to their customers for mistakes, errors, delays, and even price increases. GW does not.

PP explains why they do what they do (eg. the recent price increase). GW does not.

PP has a monthly magazine filled with content that people want to buy*. GW does not

PP has a website blog they use to preview upcoming information. GW has this as well, but their website blog is naught but thinly veiled advertising (at treats its audience like idiots).


*NB: I have never read 'No Quarter' and that comment is based upon what has been said in this thread and in others.

H.B.M.C. wrote:PP has a monthly magazine filled with content that people want to buy*. GW does not

Just to clarify, H.B.M.C, No Quarter comes out every other month - the point still stands, mind you.

As much as I always enjoyed, (and still enjoy) flicking through the pages of my old White Dwarf collection looking for new ideas, rereading some old articles for nostalgia purposes etc. it is still behind the times. I haven't bought one in over 5 years now, basically around the time I stopped purchasing all printed media. I just find that having all my books and magazines sitting on a flash disk to be far more convenient than sitting in a massive pile in my bedroom. I can look at them anywhere, any time i want. They are easy to store, searchable, and always there when I need them.

As great as old paper mags feel they are fading, and nothing is going to change that. I won't buy a WD in print no matter what it has in it, but put it down as an eBook and I'll buy the heck out of it (as long as the price is reasonable, somewhere in the $2 per issue range).

Welcome to the future GW, if you ignore it, it will ignore you. If you embrace it, well, you just might have something that keeps people thinking and talking about your game.

Melissia wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote: I just hope GW's weird behavior doesn't affect the Fantasy Flight RPGs. And no, I still won't buy a WD.

Don't worry. FFG is competently managed, they're no GW.

I'm confident that sooner or later GW will do something stupid like jack up the licensing fee that FFG pays them.

In the meantime, though, FFG will no doubt keep publishing some good product.



I sort of understand why GW wants to limit information going out. But they've got to loosen up at least a little bit. At the very least, they should follow the Battlefront model - publish a list of what's going to be released during the coming year, and save the details (i.e. figures and the like) until a month or two prior, which is typically when GW sticks the pictures in WD anyway.

Great - I've just cancelled my subscription as well!

I'm all for WD improving to how it used to be, but the way they are going about it seems plain dumb.

Getting a magazine early is one of the perks of subscribing -not getting it until or after everyone else really makes subscribing a bit pointless (unless you have no shops nearby that sell it).

Also, if I undestand it right, you won't find out what's released until after it has already been released - WTF??

Optimistic me wants to believe that WD will get better and be worthwhile, but pessemistic/cynical me thinks it will be just a flash in the pan, and quality will decline again.

Any bets they'll start sealing it in plastic so you can't skim through it first?

RiTides wrote:Hey guys, I'm all for poking fun at GW's insane approach to marketing... but this is actually good news, right? WD being worth buying?

Not really. We want White Dwarf to have content so that there's more content. So far the rumour says we're not getting more content, they're just taking content that should be elsewhere and putting it into WD.

I own every issue of WD since 150 and I have to say that this reminds me of how WD was back in those days and is what got me into the hobby in the first place.

I'm looking forward to this "new" direction of WD, I hope this goes well for GW.

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

thank god im not the only who thought it was becomming a catlog

Quite happy if they do go back to having some quality modelling/gaming articles in it.
Would also explain why the Astronomican on the website has had more tumbleweed of late. Will they shift every single article to WD then? Used to enjoy reading the Astro on lunch.

As for stiffling the info etc, do I agree with it? certainly not, but its GWs choice and what is one to do.

But even the 'blog' updates are pointless... oh look here's someone with loads of uber models... he's a staffer who built this thing FROM SIX KITS THAT COST £35 EACH, It strikes as something from North Korea - people are starving to death but the guys in charge show happy pictures of smiling children with flowers and puppies... dissenters are quashed... by the Emperor this sounds just like 40k!

Agreed totally on the blog updates, they have been poor for ages but the astro did have some good articles in it.

oh look here's someone with loads of uber models... he's a staffer who built this thing FROM SIX KITS THAT COST £35 EACH,

So true it hurts.

What they seem to have failed to grasp is that, as soon as one issue gets even a whiff of publicity, somebody's going to scan it, take a photo or describe it and boom - one £4.50 issue everywhere on the planet, for free, instantly...

My point is, I'm at the point in my life where if $8 can buy me an hours worth of enjoyment... I consider that a pretty decent buy.

Really? What's the establishment's number?

Seriously though folks I agree with many that this is counter-intuitive for GW to do. It hasn't worked has it? If we've already seen the Storm of Magic minis and have fairly good information on the Sister's dex then this policy is fail before it even comes into print. Their blog is shocking and largely a mute point - there are forums (such as this) that show other people's models continually & now it won't even have any preview information of anykind?

The only reason i've bought the occassional White Dwarf are for the painting articles by 'Eavy Metal - which has helped improve my painting no end over the last few years (well that and Devlan Mud ).

I own every issue of WD since 150 and I have to say that this reminds me of how WD was back in those days and is what got me into the hobby in the first place.

I'm looking forward to this "new" direction of WD, I hope this goes well for GW

That's nostalgia talking my friend, pay it no heed!

I hope WD can drag itself out of the cesspool of creativity it's been stuck in for years but their release policy is just plain stupid

I think that this is a step in the right direction in so far as they do need to control the message. I like WD but I don't think it should be the cutting edge of information. The actual problem is that it's when the magazine goes to the printers that leaks happen (see Storm of Magic). They need to give better content in WD but at the same time they need to pull their finger put and exploit their website. The daily blog is decent for hobby stuff but they should have a new release blog that isn't daily. Get the designer articles online too. Often when I am thinking of what to buy next I check the articles online. If they really wanted to be at the current cutting edge of publishing they'd have a subscription wall on their site. Unfortunately that would mean having content worth paying for. I have watched Wizards of the Coast go to a web only presence in the last three or so years and it has been horrible to watch. Their own forums have turned into rant fests just like Blizzard's. I wouldn't want to see GW go back to that, but they could do more about getting the news to us first rather than wait for WD.

Who wants to bet that a price rise will follow for it.
Then the minatures will go up of course, because adding more content to WD means that the price of minatures has to go up to compensate!

Can't have old GW on the street now can we?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

Translation: Our IP lawyers told us, they can't make the internet go away, so we decided to ignore it and concentrate on our inhouse print medium as sole information source for everyone. Our main goal to prevent sales staff and customers to learn about our products before the release is almost achieved, even when our second goal to sell products suffers from this

Translation: Our senior management is a relic of a bygone age, convinced that it should remain in an evermore adversarial position with the online communities that have sprung up when we aborted our own because we could not make it say precisely what we wanted it to.

We will therefore attempt to stifle communication with the hobbyists yet further and, rather than listen to feedback that might avoid further gak like the poombagor or the fugly monsters of 'storm (in a teacup) of magic' fame, we will just shunt figures out onto our shelves and expect people to leap to attention and buy them like good, obedient drones, despite the fact that many won't even be aware of their existence in time. We will then look shocked when our sales fall yet further and reassure ourselves with a nice cosy price hike.

Hooo-fething-rah.

Further come the lines of division between the company and it's consumer. Nearer drift their online savvy customers to their more approachable rivals.

Bring on the serious competition, lets hope it can save GW from it's self. Or kill it and let something less totally shuttered rise up and take it's share.

I think you guys are reading way to much into this...

I just translate: WD price rise

No wonder WD wants to get back into the early 90's because in real world today you have companies that on their sites give free downloads not of complementary mags but of full rulebooks... GW would love to time travel back but guess what its not going to happen and you either embrace the technology available today or you are going to be left behind.

insaniak wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:Soooooo... rather than wanting to be on the cutting edge of social media, technology and information, they want to go back to the 80's and 90's.

Go back? Don't you realise that this newfangled interweb thing is just a fad? Print media is where the future is at!

Also, look out for GW's big summer release: The Games Workshop Kerosene Painting Lantern! When the market drops out of this crazy electricimathingy, GW will be right there on the cutting edge!

Do you think GW are just preparing themselves for when the Age of Technology ends?

Another fantastic move GW. We aren't in the fething 80s anymore. I'm past the point of hoping GW will turn things around, I want the company to go under, I want Kirby and all those monkeys who run it to lose out on a job. I want it to be bought by someone who know what they're doing. The background will always exists, my models will always be here, but GW in it's current mind-set, cannot, and should not, survive.

iproxtaco wrote:I want the company to go under, I want Kirby and all those monkeys who run it to lose out on a job.

Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you!!!

Another tidbit:

rikard from Warseer wrote:I've actually met Trish and chat with a few other GW sculptors and painters and if it puts your mind at rest I tell you why they don't respond. They are not allowed to use any forums at all, as part of their contract, they are forbidden to post anything, even private sculpts of their own which will never see production. They're not even allowed to drop the vaguest of hints towards anything. It's literally on par with a gagging order, especially for the new comers at GW.

Rumour has it that GW's internet marketing is now run by Chinese government officials
Just kidding, but sadly you can't tell the difference anymore
More and more weird management decisions indicating that GW management has recently snapped and is now openly fighting reality.

Bringing content back to WD is fine (making a WD Codex Sororitas is not). But fighing all other information channels including trade support is dumb and doesn't work. Imagine Tom Kirby's face when seeing the leaked WD July pics

iproxtaco wrote:Another fantastic move GW. We aren't in the fething 80s anymore. I'm past the point of hoping GW will turn things around, I want the company to go under, I want Kirby and all those monkeys who run it to lose out on a job. I want it to be bought by someone who know what they're doing. The background will always exists, my models will always be here, but GW in it's current mind-set, cannot, and should not, survive.

I feel much anger in you. Anger is the path to the Dark Side.

I know WD has changed a lot over the years (he says looking at WD 14), but for yeras it has had nothing that use to make it a good read; Chapter Approved, 'Eavy Metal, fiction, great artwork - where's it all gone? Looking at my collection behind me I've bought 3 in the last five years, becuase every time I check one out in the shops it looks like a cross between a catalogue and a sales brochure.

Kroothawk wrote:Another tidbit:

rikard from Warseer wrote:I've actually met Trish and chat with a few other GW sculptors and painters and if it puts your mind at rest I tell you why they don't respond. They are not allowed to use any forums at all, as part of their contract, they are forbidden to post anything, even private sculpts of their own which will never see production. They're not even allowed to drop the vaguest of hints towards anything. It's literally on par with a gagging order, especially for the new comers at GW.

Rumour has it that GW's internet marketing is now run by Chinese government officials
Just kidding, but sadly you can't tell the difference anymore
More and more weird management decisions indicating that GW management has recently snapped and is now openly fighting reality.

Bringing content back to WD is fine (making a WD Codex Sororitas is not). But fighing all other information channels including trade support is dumb and doesn't work. Imagine Tom Kirby's face when seeing the leaked WD July pics

Not surprising really, given that tales have surfaced of lowly store managers and employees being given the boot when found to be contributing to fora.

I only ever buy select release issues, which comes to about 10 in the last few years. There's literally nothing else worthwhile in it.

I really wonder why am I paying so much money for a game run by idiots.

if they want money, they are trying their best not getting it.

We love rasing prices (me want more money), internet F*** you, I don't want people know about what I do. Now pay up children get you WD or you don't get know anything. Go to hell the rest of the world. if your 200 miles away from the GW HQ your not allowed discounts.

I think I had enough, what is GW's problem. I don't want to see this game die/end but GW is trying their best to do it.

Kroothawk wrote:Another tidbit:

rikard from Warseer wrote:I've actually met Trish and chat with a few other GW sculptors and painters and if it puts your mind at rest I tell you why they don't respond. They are not allowed to use any forums at all, as part of their contract, they are forbidden to post anything, even private sculpts of their own which will never see production. They're not even allowed to drop the vaguest of hints towards anything. It's literally on par with a gagging order, especially for the new comers at GW.

That's just dippy. I'm under a couple of NDA's from FFG, and their restrictions on what we can and cannot say are fairly straight forward and serious, but certainly not draconian like GW's. Can't even show off private sculpts? What???

Simply put, FFG aren't, unlike GW, a group of blind morons trying to kill an infestation of termites with a stapler.

Kriswell wrote:Take the recent price increase, for example. I live in the Baltimore/Washington DC area. There are plenty of gaming stores and more specifically GW stores around. I am friends with many of the managers. My education, both undergraduate and graduate is in business management and analysis. I ask how things are going. I'm interested. The price increase did not negatively impact sales AT ALL. Sales went up. Most people will grumble a little and spend the same $50 they were planning on spending last week. The real world isn't full of internet trolls who see every business decision as a sign that the Corporate Endtimes(tm) are upon us. If I had to hazard a guess, the vast majority of people on this forum swearing that they will never buy another GW product will not follow through.

GW sells toy soldiers with a very high markup to a small market segment. This allows them to make stupid decisions that erode their margin and still stay in business. Their end of the day profit margin is shameful compared to what it could be if managed differently, but it is still a perfectly valid way to run a niche business.

I totally accept your evidence. But I would challenge your extrapolation of it on the grounds that your reported sample is the B&M gaming stores in your area and therefore your data is skewed.

The problem is that their customers are by definition going to be less price sensitive than the *average* customer on the basis that they are already prepared to pay full MSRP for their toys, and not receive the readily available online discount. If they are not bothered by the 20% extra over what they actually need to pay that they are already paying, an extra, fully anticipated, price hike is unlikely to dissuade them. If all of GW's customers were this way inclined, GW would totally be doing the right thing. The problem for GW is that the evidence is that most of their customers are NOT this way inclined. If they were, their reported turnover would increase year on year in real terms. Instead we have had a year on year real (i.e. discounting for underlying inflation) decrease in turnover every year since 2004. The published, audited, verifiable data demonstrates unequivocably and unarguably that in total and on average their customers bought less product in 2010 than they did in any year in the last decade, and paid less for it in real terms. Period. Anecdotal evidence, interesting as it may be, from any number of B&M stores will surely not alter that fact? Particularly as year on year a greater proportion of their sales are migrating to online.

GW has no Business analysts.

Edit : Damn, changed your post.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah but compare GW and PP...

PP has a website blog they use to preview upcoming information. GW has this as well, but their website blog is naught but thinly veiled advertising (at treats its audience like idiots).

If you think that PP's website and 'blogs' are anything other than marketing you are deluding yourself. The whole of PP, FFG, GW and every other website is aimed at marketing. If PP make people feel like they are their best pals then their marketing is working. I'm not apologising for GW because I think their marketing strategy is very poor, I have said before that as soon as they have the photos they should be online before they go to the printers and they should control their own message. I know that this is the way Apple do things, by letting the viral leaks do their own marketing, but that usually involves a good product at the end but the problem with Storm of Magic is that the scenery is so different we cant really judge it by anything other than looks and the models are sub par for GW. GW will continue to erode their own market share the more they plod along. I understand that the scale of the company means it cant change its strategy as easily as PP who have a tiny range in comparison but they need to do something more than change when WD is published.

Given how even 'haters' are desperate for GW info I'm not surprised that GW creative staff have no web presence, I mean if even Jes Goodwin's web I.D. got out it would get spammed to death by haters and fanbois even about stuff he has no control over but GW do need to give them more presence on the web. Game designers are internet personalities now and while I understand that that might not interest some, I think it would help GW have a web savvy or web present developer who can work with the fans on behalf of the company. Blizzard have done this well and they make no apologies for ignoring unconstructive criticism.

From even my limited management experience I know that it is always better to come to an argument with a solution rather than just dumping a load of problems and not doing anything about it. However I also realise that many posters here have probably become jaded over the years and might not want to be so charitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:GW has no Business analysts.

They dont need any as long as your avatar and sig advertise their IP

Advertise to people already in touch with the IP, notably, everyone on this forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They solve problems the same way The United States Government solves the echonomic crisis, with a freshly slaughtered chicken and a circular choice chart painted on the floor to the sound of a guy playing a wazoo.

Kroothawk wrote:Another tidbit:

rikard from Warseer wrote:I've actually met Trish and chat with a few other GW sculptors and painters and if it puts your mind at rest I tell you why they don't respond. They are not allowed to use any forums at all, as part of their contract, they are forbidden to post anything, even private sculpts of their own which will never see production. They're not even allowed to drop the vaguest of hints towards anything. It's literally on par with a gagging order, especially for the new comers at GW.

Jes Goodwin should challenge this. See if GW are really so stuck up that they think they can afford to lose him...

The only print magazine I buy these days is Wired (and even then, I'm finding that they post a large amount of their content for free online). Every issue has 5-10 articles each 5-10 pages of nearly *solid text*, which are very interesting and make for some good intellectual debate. I could total up the text in a white dwarf to 5 pages, and most of it drivel.

I just honestly don't see how this is going to work. These days, "0-day attacks" on products aren't that uncommon - someone at the print factory takes a scan/copy and puts it online. Someone, somewhere knows about the content coming out of GW, and it is going to leak.

I can kind of see their idea. If no-one knows their army is going to be updated, people will buy a full army the day before release... and then buy another full army!! I know Apple attempts to keep very close wraps on their product releases (though those sneaky patent spies still manage to get the goss) in order to prevent people from saving until the next update. But again... it just seems like a major backwards step when everyone else is moving away from print.

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

This in no way motivates me to actually PAY for their catalog. If you shut down rumors, you effectively have no marketing, so 'em I couldn't care less.

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's more of a case that the marketing department is aimed more towards crowds that y'know...don't spend time on forums like this.

When they had their own forums, they didn't do a terrible job of 'marketing' new releases. They'd drop hints and then bam, you'd suddenly see an updated "Sneak Peek" posting with some new shinies(usually one for each game system).

Except that a lot of that crowd have internet and newsletter subscription from GW.

So sane businesses say to customers via newsletter "Exciting new Grunge Wizards coming out ETA (insert month) +Test shot/Promo shots/Concept art"
It isn't hard.

Unless you are GW.
Forgetting, sorry.
GW is a niche and to target a niche market you don't aim to tell them anything. Apparently

Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

WD is looking to be improved - this is good news, it is wht we have been asking for for years. I will await the July issue with baited breath and will judge whether it is worth buying or not then.

Print verses Online - suggesting that online is cutting edge is risable, its more of the same but with added opinion and whining.

At least with a magazine, when I accidently sit on it it gets crumpled, with the Ipad now that literally could be a cutting edge (with added repair bill!).

Post edited
Thanks to Osbad for the correction above.

I might actually buy one,i have not bought one years!!!

notprop wrote:Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

Never mind sonny I'll put the kettle on and make us all a nice cuppa.

RiTides wrote:Hey guys, I'm all for poking fun at GW's insane approach to marketing... but this is actually good news, right? WD being worth buying?

A shame about not sending out black boxes / info /etc... but I'd love to have a decent WD to check out each month. Might even get a subscription if it's good enough...

How on earth does this make it worth buying? Now I'm paying for their catalog and their marketing? that.
I took a decision to nerf the SOB army I was thinking of.
Now I'm looking hard at Warmachine and FOW. They get as good a fanbase at the store.

notprop wrote:Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

WD is looking to be improved - this is good news, it is wht we have been asking for for years. I will await the July issue with baited breath and will judge whether it is worth buying or not then

They could release something spectacularly fantastic which fulfills all the wishes people have expressed but you know that the only posts on the subject would be those people whinging about how bad it is and how it isn't like the WDs of the good old days...

Bloodwin wrote:If you think that PP's website and 'blogs' are anything other than marketing you are deluding yourself.

Of course it's designed to sell products, but it's not done in a way that's masquerading as 'hobby advice' like GW's "What's On Sale Today" column. Furthermore, they show things that aren't on sale yet. GW doesn't do that and, in fact, will be keeping more secrets. Blogs by a company are usually created for the express purpose of pushing their product lines - and that's fine - but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. GW seems to always choose - nay, aim for - the wrong way.

Bloodwin wrote:From even my limited management experience I know that it is always better to come to an argument with a solution rather than just dumping a load of problems and not doing anything about it. However I also realise that many posters here have probably become jaded over the years and might not want to be so charitable.

I've listed the things GW could be doing in the past - embracing digital media, social media, the Internet in general, leverage their website/WD and even their miniature making capacity to support their licensed IP (RPG's, Dawn of War, movies, etc.), participating in the spectrum of wargaming rather than shoving their fingers in their ears and pretending that the other companies out there don't exist, showing up to trade shows and conventions - and so on. A lot of these could increase word of mouth, good will, and don't cost a mint like radio/television/print advertising.

Instead though... more secrecy and more of a shut-in mentality. It's ass-backwards.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Except I didn't say that would be grateful for an edit please.

Sorry! Fatfingers strikes again. Edit done!

Thanks Osbad
Credit where credit is due!

will edit my post as it no longer makes sense

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's more of a case that the marketing department is aimed more towards crowds that y'know...don't spend time on forums like this.

When they had their own forums, they didn't do a terrible job of 'marketing' new releases. They'd drop hints and then bam, you'd suddenly see an updated "Sneak Peek" posting with some new shinies(usually one for each game system).

Kan, come on. I know it’s a ‘thing’ of ours where you defend GW and I rag on you for being an apologist, but let’s be realistic here:

This is a highly reactionary decision that takes the opposite approach to what they should be doing. Rather than expanding their marketing opportunities, they are further shrinking into themselves in hope that they can ‘control the message’, which is simply impossible in this day and age. In a time where other companies are embracing electronic media and social networking GW seems to be recoiling. This is a mistake. Would Mantic, PP or half-a-dozen others be around if not for electronic media?

This isn’t the early 80’s, no matter how much GW wishes it was. Global communication isn’t just readily available it’s also really simple to do. And while I’m not about to go and call print media ‘dead’ as others have in this thread – I have no real knowledge on the subject beyond what I hear in the news – refocusing all their efforts on White Dwarf is a bad way to compete in this day and age. I’ve always said that they need to leverage WD more than what they do currently, but they cannot do it to the exclusion of all else.

Even GW’s target demographic – the 10-12 year olds – are online. I wasn’t when I was 10 (I had a 386 running Windows 3.0 and Commander Keen 4 was my fav game in the world – the Internet didn’t ‘exist’), but kids today are, and to ignore what almost every company in the world is leaping towards is utter madness and shows a lack of business sense on a scale since... well since the last major fuckup GW was part of (pick one – there’s many).

Well their target market certainly reads gaming magazines. I've had to pay more than my fair share for my little demon seeds. However, those are 3rd party magazines, where GW would have to, you know, advertise. I know its an alien concept to them...

Well their target market certainly reads gaming magazines. I've had to pay more than my fair share for my little demon seeds. However, those are 3rd party magazines, where GW would have to, you know, advertise. I know its an alien concept to them...

It all makes sense now!
GW considers marketing as alien, ie Xenos

Marketing is HERESY!

Kriswall wrote:

Here's an aside... Wizards of the Coast used to print Dungeon and Dragon magazines. They stopped doing so and instead put it online as a paid download pdf in an effort to "embrace the online environment". Readership dropped dramatically and immediately. Piracy of the information contained therein exploded. It was generally considered to be a bad idea.

Your ignoring a heck of alot of other factors there in your quest to make a point- the OGL/GSL debacle, the anger at canceling the magazines in the fashion they did, 4e in general, edition wars, and the fact its behind a paywall without any real look at the quality of acticles in general.

Readership didnt just drop because it went digital. There were other factors involved.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

notprop wrote:Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

Never mind sonny I'll put the kettle on and make us all a nice cuppa.

YOU'RE NOT MY REAL MUM, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!

[slams door, runs to bedrom in tears]

notprop wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

notprop wrote:Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

Never mind sonny I'll put the kettle on and make us all a nice cuppa.

YOU'RE NOT MY REAL MUM, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!

[slams door, runs to bedrom in tears]

Frazzled gets the screwdriver and takes door off hinges
"Mom told you what would happen if you slammed the door. "

Awesome - I wonder what they'll jack the price up to this time?

I actually like this idea if it makes WD worth reading. Back in the 90s I really enjoyed buying video game magazines because you got to see all the new stuff coming out soon. They didnt want others releasing information either too soon

The internet sorta makes new things not as .. interesting because of information overload. My main gripe is that its not much advance time to prepare to throw your money away on plastic men

Its just too bad they had to erect an iron curtain instead of actually embracing the modern age

"So, Mr Tzeentch, you'd like to work in our marketing department? What ideas and strategies would you bring to Games Workshop?"

Frazzled wrote:
Frazzled gets the screwdriver and takes door off hinges
"Mom told you what would happen if you slammed the door. "

Haha that really made me chuckle

If it does make the magazine more readable, then surely that is the diamond in the rather large and stinging nettle-filled rough that GW has created for itself recently.

But I don't hold out any hopes, there is barely a single comment in the magazine now that isn't "xx is just wonderful, I must by more". And the finecast section in the news almost made my eyes bleed, there is absolutely no journalism in it whatsoever. I wonder if the poor sods writing for the magazine have a Fox News esque 'direct line'; "today you will be writing about our new range, I expect the word Finecast to be mentioned in every paragraph" with completed pages going off for a 'content check' after the editing has been done (no doubt carried out by a man with a wide brimmed hat, leather boots and with a monocle).

Anyway.. ahem, the magazine used to be better.

H.B.M.C. wrote:PP has a monthly magazine filled with content that people want to buy*. GW does not

No Quarter is filled with articles on creating custom terrain, reports from tournaments and painting competitions, battle reports, tactical challenges (my favorite), blog-like entries from winners of past tournaments or members of the staff, tactics articles and suggestions on how to grow an army, short stories, league information and rules, and rules and background information for their RPG.

One issue of NQ has more content than 10 issues of WD.

The title says that this was in a news letter. It doesn't seem like this is something GW would put into a news letter. Do you have a screen capture or scan of this news letter?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I want the company to go under, I want Kirby and all those monkeys who run it to lose out on a job.

Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you!!!

Strike them down with all your hatred and your journey towards the GWfugginsucksandshouldburninagony Side will be complete!

Having played 40k for a while now and watched the way they conduct business, i have come to realize that I love their models and the game, and hate just about everything else that the company does, GW grow up or people are gonna play different games(not me though, 40k is too sweet, im gonna keep getting butt pwned by GW)

Gitkikka wrote:Awesome - I wonder what they'll jack the price up to this time?

Just buy White Dwarf, you will be the first to know*.


* - As of July 2011 appearantly!

I'd say it's still not worth it. Chapter approved would be nice, as would the new Sororitas, but unless it's consistent, I'd see no reason to buy it.

Their problem is... Most 40k players could care less about fantasy, most fantasy players could care less about 40k (well, maybe not), and no one cares about LOTR. They're covering too many subjects, without providing enough quality to bother reading it. The main boon of WD is the pretty pictures of studio models, and the painting sections (GEMS!!!!!!). They should focus on that.

I'll admit I've only skimmed through but after all, it's like six pages in two days.

At this point, GW could be trying to do something reasonable and different but there's only so many times you can burn your hand on the stove before you can't look at it without wincing and blaming it for something.

I'm inclined towards too little too late.

Yes, there are plenty of catalogues that people pay quite a large amount of money for. However, they usually come out once or twice a year and are as thicker than a codex.

I don't like reading things off screen, I like them in my hand. But there's only so much I'll pay for when only part of it interests me, if any at all.

In the past I've bought maybe one out of every three White Dwarfs if that. I'm not saying they should split the three games, but the content does need to be better. And not just with new rules. Good painting and conversion guides would be a start.

I bought one on the basis that I was told it had a painting guide to the Imperial Sector. Was very excited and bought it just for that as I had a half assembled sector (one of two) at home. It didn't. It was "here's a killer colour scheme". Umm...pretty, but not a painting guide.

I remember being told (and told, not seen myself so old time gamers correct me if I'm wrong) that "your army could only be show cased in WD if it had a good fluffy back story". Implying that people used to send in photos of their armies to be published for all to see. With the story behind their army! Oh how awesome! I'd love to see fan fic like that and other painters' models in print. I know we got it on the forum but it's the kind of thing I like flicking through on the bus, not staring at the screen. The 'Eavy Metal team are brilliant but a bit too brilliant when it's what you see all the time, I find myself getting quite intimated by my own poor skill in comparison. But to see the slightly better than average have their army show cased? That would be great.

The boys are always regaling me with tales of when WD used to not only come out with addendum rules to fix problems, and battle reports weren't just flavour of the month or if they were, they said what went wrong when flavour of the month lost and how they fixed that unbalanced game they had to test them out and this battle report is from the time they won, but came out with cut out cardboard terrain over the course of a few months. There's something "free" you can use on the table and want to buy (and need to buy) every issue it's in to assemble the whole thing (a bunker iirc). Or special edition WD only release minis!

Cool stuff. Stuff that makes you want to buy it rather than "we're holding you to ransom to know what's coming out at the last minute". I'm sorry, I like to be able to get excited and save up if necessary. I like the people I'm buying things from to be informed. Even if it's not my army, I enjoy that look of excitement and anticipation in the staffers' eyes when they're saying how cool it's going to be and how they can't wait.

Leaks will happen. Always. The best you can do is control the leaks and beat them to the punch, using it to build up excitement.

Battle reports have been flavor of the month for a very very long time, but occasionally they would have two existing lists which were more interesting. Batreps also cycled between being lazy to full on pics and detailed map affairs that were right out of a history book.

I liked chapter approved. Revised lists with NOT TOURNEY LEGAL on the top would be fine, but that would clash with forgeworld so I am thinking no way.

I don't think they've put in fluff stories in years, or alternate missions or anything.

Changing WD GW's excuse for raising the price of it.

That is the point: They promise to put content into the WD like they did 20 years ago. We know that August will feature the first part of the Codex Sororitas and official rules for a new Vampire monster. Last WD Codex (Blood Angels) and last WD rules (Eldar Nightspinner) are rare and quite some time ago. So we already know some of the new direction. This is good news in principle.

As GW wants to shut down all other information sources, WD will also regain some importance as source for official news, incl. pics. No more black boxes, no more preview Codices, no more preorder pics more than a week in advance. This may get some people back into stores. We will see.

Yet another idiotic strategy from GW in an effort to deny the community and the culture that supports their games.

Sorry, GW, but anticipation and product excitement is a very real and very profitable marketing strategy. I like to be aware of things on the radar months, not just weeks, in advance. I like the comraderie of shared discussion, planning and excitment.

This latest move from GW? A resounding "Meh" from me.

Although, let me note that I am ALL IN FAVOR of them improving their rag by adding decent content.

I'm still waiting to see the newsletter. Why hasn't it been posted anywhere other than Germany?

Kanluwen wrote:I'm still waiting to see the newsletter. Why hasn't it been posted anywhere other than Germany?

Because they're waiting until July WD to announce it. They're really getting in on the policy from the ground floor!

Im subed cause the batreps are so funny, the pictures are cool, I laught at their attempts to sell the flavour of the month army. (also the finecast book was epic lols)

Also I get names to use for leaders/heros (I never make/buy them but i make their own stories)

Kanluwen wrote:I'm still waiting to see the newsletter. Why hasn't it been posted anywhere other than Germany?

It was released as a newsletter by mistake*. It was really intended to have been put in White Dwarf, like all future GW news will be. The fact that no one will know that all news will now be in White Dwarf unless they already buy White Dwarf just doesn't matter to GW. The people who don't already buy White Dwarf are not GW followers, and therefore don't deserve to have WD advertised to them. They're the sort of people who make fun of finecast and Storm of Magic sculpts and who have this bizarre delusion that GW miniatures are not the best miniatures on the market. Best to just ignore them and hope they go away when the Internet does.





*Not intended to be a factual statement.

Kroothawk wrote:That is the point: They promise to put content into the WD like they did 20 years ago. We know that August will feature the first part of the Codex Sororitas and official rules for a new Vampire monster. Last WD Codex (Blood Angels) and last WD rules (Eldar Nightspinner) are rare and quite some time ago. So we already know some of the new direction. This is good news in principle.
***This part could be good, if true. Frankly I believe none of it.

As GW wants to shut down all other information sources, WD will also regain some importance as source for official news, incl. pics. No more black boxes, no more preview Codices, no more preorder pics more than a week in advance. This may get some people back into stores. We will see.

***I don't see how. Its limiting their marketing to people already aware of the product. Its equivalent to making everything an FLGS in that I'm not aware of coming new stuff. I never knew about the stormbird until I saw one and asked "what is that piece of gak?" At least with FW I can get an email and then people discuss and I actually go back and check said email. Its self limiting.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm still waiting to see the newsletter. Why hasn't it been posted anywhere other than Germany?

Counter - question:

GW wrote:

Der Juli-White-Dwarf (#187) wird daher die Komfort-Abonnenten wenige Werktage später (i.d.R. am Dienstag oder Mittwoch der Folgewoche) erreichen.

in their newsletter.

But GW also provided "guaranteed" release dates at the last page of each WD:

- subscription = 22.06. GW stores& FLGS = 25.06. kiosk = 27.06.

So "normally" the july WD had to get to the subscribes first... seems they had to inform about their changes.
If their english WD issue had no release dates shown, there would be nothing to tell about beeing late.

This may get some people back into stores. We will see.

If that was the intention it seems to go against shop closures and the fact that some places don't have GW stores.

Kroothawk wrote:As GW wants to shut down all other information sources, WD will also regain some importance as source for official news, incl. pics. No more black boxes, no more preview Codices, no more preorder pics more than a week in advance. This may get some people back into stores. We will see.

You mean the stores that are running on skeleton crews or are closing entirely? Those stores?

so they want the wd to be first source of info. yet store managers have order sheets quarterly. a good manager has a rapport with his customers and no matter what gw say regular punters will know what is coming up and inform everyone else or manager or other staff will post on sites anyway. makes you wonder if any of the bigwigs at gw have any clue of how a gaming community works.

I haven't bought a WD since 2008. However, if I felt it was worthwhile, I would buy one again. We used to get great articles, and every 12-18 months or so they would produce an omnibus of the relevant articles for a specific system, plus some new stuff, in yet another book. Why they moved away from this is beyond me...

Yes, get people back into yoru stores by NOT telling them about the products you're selling!


EFFING BRILLIANT! GW WILL GET ON THIS RIGHT AWAY!

IMHO, GW did not listen to players or customers complaints, just about the only thing that makes GW do anything is the bottom line, as as i asume, the bottom faling out of the WD sales - when a brick hits them in the face - like in this case a fair amount of people not renewing their WD subscription, and a lot less people buying them in their LGS, eventualy they will wake up. But as usual with GW there is more then one drawback...


Just my 2c

From what I have seen on the internet, it seems like about 0% of GW customers are pleased with their business model, i dont know if it is just complete mismanagement or being stuck in the past, but as long as they refuse to change games like Warmachine and Hordes are going to gain business and further reduce their monopoly on tabletop wargaming.

dajobe wrote:From what I have seen on the internet, it seems like about 0% of GW customers are pleased with their business model, i dont know if it is just complete mismanagement or being stuck in the past, but as long as they refuse to change games like Warmachine and Hordes are going to gain business and further reduce their monopoly on tabletop wargaming.

Naw there are lots of satisfied customers, it's just that the internet is a vocal minority.

Is the June Issue out yet? As we've not had our usual four turn up at the shop yet, and it seems a little late two weeks into June.

Or have GW cancelled supplying John Menezies now as well as WHSmith?

Don't wear clothes with the designer's name splashed across them.
They want be to be a human billboard, they pay for my body as advertising space,
not me pay them a premium to do the advertisng for them

Like a lot of people, I ain't gonna pay for GW's advertising either.

If they want to increase sales of WD content needs to improve dramatically.
The problem may be, once the long term customer decides to stop getting a magazine, it is hard to get them back.
Same with my other hobby mags I have decided to stop buying, I just don't miss them and the money gets spent elsewhere.
I may get the odd mag if there is some research reference I need, but that sort of content will not be put into WD imho

As usual I suspect a lot of the problems stem from short term thinking and targeting a younger audience.


Am not sorry the Black Box nonsense is being ditched tbh, but it sounds like store managers are not being dealt with sympathetically.

khsofsos wrote:so they want the wd to be first source of info. yet store managers have order sheets quarterly.

They might now...

It's not too much of a stretch to see GW either issuing the release list to stores with the WD, or going back to the set-up they had here in Oz 10 or so years ago, where they would just send out the new releases to stores and you would find out what you were getting when they arrived.

How does that work for FLGS's, or are they just SOL?

Well, GW never did like local stores. They killed many of them by opening up storefronts right across the street.

Frazzled wrote:How does that work for FLGS's, or are they just SOL?

The set up that I was on, we just nominated how many we would want of a given type of item (3 of each box, 4 of each blister, or whatever) and they would just send that many of each new release item.

Let me get this straight. There are a few people on the forums here who said they like the idea and will keep Buying WD.

How much you want to be these same people will be here on the forum to let us know what is in there?

So I can't see sales increasing at all because it will be the same old, people coming here or Warseer or BoLS or where ever they go so it will be same old same old.

So instead of Sticky Monkey or What his name who likes Pies (sorry been awhile I forgot your name) it will be who ever buys the WD magazine.

Also as was said, who is to say once the subscriptions come in, GW will not revert back to their old ways again? They did it a few times now, so I can see it again.

I like many haven't bought a WD issue in years. My last WD was when it was issue 12 or so of the Canadian edition. I might get it for the SoB update but that is it, no subscriptions for me, I don't really need rumours that bad.

Katie Drake wrote:

dajobe wrote:From what I have seen on the internet, it seems like about 0% of GW customers are pleased with their business model, i dont know if it is just complete mismanagement or being stuck in the past, but as long as they refuse to change games like Warmachine and Hordes are going to gain business and further reduce their monopoly on tabletop wargaming.

Naw there are lots of satisfied customers, it's just that the internet is a vocal minority.

I have absolutely no proof to back this up, but I bet that of the people that consistenlty play the game, and dont just buy the models because they look cool, are not very satisfied with GW. If i am wrong then its good for me because GW is doing better business with happy customers and the hobby is expanding. If i am right then the opposite is true and other wargames will continue to gain popularity.

So for the sake of 40k i hope im wrong

I am getting so use too not having any knowledge of upcoming stuff, I couldn't care if WD does this now.

GW has taught me I don't need to know what is going on, so why would I need a WD now anyways?

As someone said before, I was shocked that GW charged us to buy their full catalogue, I don't need to pay for GW's marketing and advertising. Remember Advertising is suppose to keep the magazines cheap and keep us informed. WD has not done any of this, so after about 3 or maybe 5 years of not buying WD regularly anymore it's too little, too late now.

Then again, almost all of us on the internet is not GW market. We buy our own minis, we buy them at discount prices, GW market is parents who buy their $500-$1000 of stuff and never come back.

So you have to remember who is GW actual audience. So WD is not for us but for their market audience.

i buy from games workshop online...cuz im a newb, prob should start buying alternative sites, save money that way, oh games workshop, i have such conflicted feelings towards you!

I don't buy X-Box Magazine and I love my X-Box almost as much as my gaming hobby....and THAT mag comes with a DISK with preveiw games, interveiws and all other stuff.

Forget it GW...I'm not buying your overpriced rag. If it's got interesting rules....I'll photocopy someone elses or get them off the internet.

I for one welcome WD being the central hub for the hobby's releases. GW are not ignoring the internet or other mediums there just choosing the most appropriate one for there needs. I for one would love to pick up WD or have it delivered with its content being a surprise. That's how it used to be go to the shelf and quickly flick through to see if your army was featured then rushing it home to sit and read it. It's got to be released somewhere and lets face it it will be all over the net the following day after release (probably as an illegal PDF) anyway. If GW are saying they wish to make WD more central to the hobby again and make it relevant fair play. Let's face it GW can't do any good for most people on this forum I will be buying the next issue.
Also if they did release it as a downlodable PDF or via an app or even website subscription the number of people purchasing the magazine would still massively out number any other sales. You only have to look at the issues surrounding floundering numbers of newspaper sales The Guardian on-line hasn't exactly stormed the web because information is free on the net.

The idea GW managers had behind this is to bring back customers to the FLGS and get first information there, and not the internet. Like it was 20 years ago before the internet. WD is first seen in the FLGS then next week in subscription. WD is released one week before new products are released. All other information for retail staff, customers, GW internet browsers is available also only one week before release. To achieve this, GW is currently reorganising to achieve this:

1.) New later publication of WD, subscribers get their WD hald a week later (if not a store subscription). WD is made prime medium for GW information.

2.) Retailers and staff also get their info on new stuff through WD first to maintain information control. So obviously no more quaterly release plans in advance. Basically staff reads WD Friday/Saturday, orders Monday and sells next Saturday. Makes releases in third week unlikely.

3.) No more black boxes, no more preview copies of Codices and army books. No more Incoming articles or early teasers on the GW website. No information at all before WD release.

Obviously, GW is fed up with internet leaks and internet flaming and also internet trade. This includes forums like Warseer and Dakka and also traders like Wayland and Maelstrom. They want to go back to trading as it was 20 years ago, where magazines and FLGSs dominated the gaming scene. Will internet users including Warseer and Dakka members like this? Probably not. Will people not having a FLGS nearby or in the same state like this? Probably not. But GW is risking this to get some internet buyers back into brick and mortar stores and get more information flow control.

This is a radical policy change on GW's side, foreshadowed by previous decisions but taken to the extreme now.

Will it work? Well, the WD July leaked. but then again think about how much information leaked by one person having access to the WD early (Storm of Magic, Vampires, Sororitas, CoD Update).

Will it stop people discussing GW on the internet? Obviously not, but GW does everything that discussion starts late when GW official pics are out.

Will it raise sales? GW managers think yes. You are free to have doubts. But maybe seeing this from GW's point of view makes things clearer.

Rather than improve the magazine to make it worth buying they just restrict all information about forthcoming releases to the magazine. That's not improving the magazine, it's just making it a necessity by choking other means of information.

I doubt it will last long because the world just doesn't work like that any more. GW just don't get the internet do they?

Kroothawk wrote:But maybe seeing this from GW's point of view makes things clearer.

You almost sound like you're... supporting... this new approach?

Nail and head Kroothawk.

Kroothawk wrote:
Obviously, GW is fed up with internet leaks and internet flaming and also internet trade. This includes forums like Warseer and Dakka and also traders like Wayland and Maelstrom. They want to go back to trading as it was 20 years ago, where magazines and FLGSs dominated the gaming scene. Will internet users including Warseer and Dakka members like this? Probably not. Will people not having a FLGS nearby or in the same state like this? Probably not. But GW is risking this to get some internet buyers back into brick and mortar stores and get more information flow control.

This is a radical policy change on GW's side, foreshadowed by previous decisions but taken to the extreme now.

Will it work? Well, the WD July leaked. but then again think about how much information leaked by one person having access to the WD early (Storm of Magic, Vampires, Sororitas, CoD Update).

Will it stop people discussing GW on the internet? Obviously not, but GW does everything that discussion starts late when GW official pics are out.

Will it raise sales? GW managers think yes. You are free to have doubts. But maybe seeing this from GW's point of view makes things clearer.

The idea that sites like these had any effect on GW's polices to early releases is laughable. No sick flame war here produced any change. Black boxes and newsletters announcements probably would've been taken away regardless of any rules leaks here (now actual pictures of early releases are probably a different matter).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:But maybe seeing this from GW's point of view makes things clearer.

You almost sound like you're... supporting... this new approach?

I want to separate information and my comment on it, like in good journalism. I will comment later.

Fair enough.

Kroothawk wrote:The idea GW managers had behind this is to bring back customers to the FLGS and get first information there, and not the internet. Like it was 20 years ago before the internet. WD is first seen in the FLGS then next week in subscription. WD is released one week before new products are released. All other information for retail staff, customers, GW internet browsers is available also only one week before release. To achieve this, GW is currently reorganising to achieve this:

1.) New later publication of WD, subscribers get their WD hald a week later (if not a store subscription). WD is made prime medium for GW information.

2.) Retailers and staff also get their info on new stuff through WD first to maintain information control. So obviously no more quaterly release plans in advance. Basically staff reads WD Friday/Saturday, orders Monday and sells next Saturday. Makes releases in third week unlikely.

3.) No more black boxes, no more preview copies of Codices and army books. No more Incoming articles or early teasers on the GW website. No information at all before WD release.

Obviously, GW is fed up with internet leaks and internet flaming and also internet trade. This includes forums like Warseer and Dakka and also traders like Wayland and Maelstrom. They want to go back to trading as it was 20 years ago, where magazines and FLGSs dominated the gaming scene. Will internet users including Warseer and Dakka members like this? Probably not. Will people not having a FLGS nearby or in the same state like this? Probably not. But GW is risking this to get some internet buyers back into brick and mortar stores and get more information flow control.

This is a radical policy change on GW's side, foreshadowed by previous decisions but taken to the extreme now.

Will it work? Well, the WD July leaked. but then again think about how much information leaked by one person having access to the WD early (Storm of Magic, Vampires, Sororitas, CoD Update).

Will it stop people discussing GW on the internet? Obviously not, but GW does everything that discussion starts late when GW official pics are out.

Will it raise sales? GW managers think yes. You are free to have doubts. But maybe seeing this from GW's point of view makes things clearer.

I agree that it sort of makes sense. I mean, some of what GW does doesn't make as much sense... but using their mag as a foremost way to get info out there and actually posting RELEVENT articles to our hobby outside of shoddy battle reps and crappy "how-to" articles is a great step forward.

Honestly, we're gonna get leaks no matter what. Don't care what it is, stuff will leak, even if its just a bit of info (for example: I worked as an extra for the Avengers movie... so did about 600 other people; doubt everyones gonna keep their piehole shut). So giving people a REASON to buy the mag is a good thing for them. Heck, if they start moving the story forward and doing fluff in the mag like they used to would be rad too... people have lost touch with why they play their armies nowadays; so give us a reason to care!

Sorry but I still fail to understand how the release of news solely through WD is supposed to dramatically improve sales.

I want to find out what is being released:
Walk into newsagents
Pick up WD and browse
See what the crack is
put WD back on the rack
leave newsagents.

Not going to part with cash just because of the news and rumours of GW self promotion.

Seriously if that is the sole reason for buying it then one really ought to think hard about life.
Improved content I can understand people wanting to buy the mag again, but this?
GW are behaving like jerks as per the norm.

If the move to release news via WD was part of an extensive opening up of providing info for fan sit would be fine rather than the ever tightening grip.

Improved content is part of it: Just browse the 3-4 threads just discussing the content of WD July/August (CoD rules update, Codex Sororitas, new Vampire rules, Storm of Magic material, Fincast releases for July and August). Those two issues have more rules than WD in the last 2 years. WD will move away from just colour sprue pics and fake battle reports.

WD codex...how easy is it going to be hauling 2 issues of WD to every tournament every time and referencing everything? I'd be interested to see how they do it in parts, but nothing more than interested.

I understand they've done it before, but they certainly don't have the longevity of a decent codex. I guess after the disappointment of the Blood Angels WD, Grey Knights WD and Tomb Kings WD I'm pretty skeptical about anything more than the odd interview and 'words of wisdom' from the codex writers.

notprop wrote:

Gitkikka wrote:Awesome - I wonder what they'll jack the price up to this time?

Just buy White Dwarf, you will be the first to know*.


* - As of July 2011 appearantly!

How about I check the price in the local GW and laugh and laugh and laugh?

puma713 wrote:Good thing I can go into my FLGS and thumb through the new WD rather than pay nearly $10 for it.

Ah, someone else who does what I do. I haven't bought a WD in years and will continue to do so.

I have every issue since 132 , sad I know but it 's just not what it used to , so were a lot of things . The only reason I have still been getting it over the last 3 or 4 years is because my mother-in-law buys a subscription for my birthday or Xmas . Mostly , I barely glance at it before my son gets hold of it , flips through and says , meh . I'd be very interested to see if the changes actually improve it or it becomes just another GW flop .

I'm conflicted. I want the game "patched" if they truely intend to fix things (although I'm skeptical that any fix will be properly playtested). But I don't want to pay a fortune for it. This game is expensive enough and I would much rather see an FAQ online than only in their sacred magazine.

I would suggest staying with the FAQ but having much more in depth description of WHY the change was made in the White Dwarf. Heck, even add a leters section for rules questions and suggestions from gamers to the thing.

How does it pan out having the rules updated in the magazine?

Am just wondering if there are problems with some people seeing updated to rules whilst other players haven't.

Of course there is always the internet to spread the word

Also it who are the magazine rule "patches" aimed at?
Are new players likely to be as bothered by such aspects of the game? Just wondering if it contradicts what has been said about the demographics.

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

I think thats almost right but not quite.

Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by making sure that internet rumours become even more vague than the contents of our magazine.

I see little that will actually change in White Dwarf, its a tightening of information flow to Warseer and Bols and a tightening on what redshirts are told. There is nothing to indicate White Dwarf will actually gain in quality as a result of this.

Wildstorm wrote:I'm conflicted. I want the game "patched" if they truely intend to fix things (although I'm skeptical that any fix will be properly playtested). But I don't want to pay a fortune for it. This game is expensive enough and I would much rather see an FAQ online than only in their sacred magazine.

I would suggest staying with the FAQ but having much more in depth description of WHY the change was made in the White Dwarf. Heck, even add a leters section for rules questions and suggestions from gamers to the thing.

Best approach, business wise, is to put the pdf FAQ up 2 months after the magazine hits the stores. 2 months gives enough time for the issue to filter out of news agencies and the like so anyone wanting it specifically for the rules update, and who intend to actually pay for it, have bought it. After that, put it online, since it actually does need to be in an easily accessible archive for future players who missed out on the issue.

Lots of roleplaying companies post addendums on the net. They can't playtest every possible loophole or exploitation of the rules that players will inevitably find.

They don't go out of business.

:p

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:How does it pan out having the rules updated in the magazine?

Am just wondering if there are problems with some people seeing updated to rules whilst other players haven't.

As in old times: Bring the WD to the game as reference and proof, that these rules are as official as Codex or army book.
Just like you bring a new Codex.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry but I still fail to understand how the release of news solely through WD is supposed to dramatically improve sales.

I want to find out what is being released:
Walk into newsagents...

Not WHSmiths though, which cuts down on a lot of newsagents that people go into. I don't see White Dwarf that often any more, it's just not around like it used to be. I could almost see a glimmer of sense in this if they hadn't broken off their deal with the UK's largest newsagent retailer.

GW seemingly only want to sell to their 'followers'. How do they expect to get new customers when they don't advertise and want to distribute everything from their own niche shops?

GW again are trying to fight the internet age instead of adapting to it. Their 'solution' to the internet is to tighten up on leaks, prevent online discussion by their customers, to end information being released on their website, to combat customer excitement by restricting information to only a week prior to release, to restrict information to their own shops and own magazine, which oddly enough is largely only available in their own shops and retailers, they want to control traders trying to sell on the internet by clamping down on online shops that use such exotic functions as a 'shopping basket' and restricting where goods can be delivered, they alienate customers by going after numerous fan sites that nominally use a bit of their IP imagery...

Can anyone else think of a company that tries this hard to to fight against the internet age? It was dumb in the 90s, it's deluded today.

One would think that a company as big as GW was past the point of trying to "Un-Invent" things. Internet is here to stay, they better start getting used to the idea or they will become irrelevant.

Improving the WD - Good idea
Pretending the internet isn't there - Bad idea

This will come around and bite them in the ass. But what else would you expect from a company that moved back some ten, fifteen years in corporate strategy when the new millenium came around...?

Kroothawk]Hi,
I only have the German version of the GW newsletter, so someone else can post the English version please.

The newsletter describes the new direction that GW wants to take with White Dwarf starting with the July issue.
GW wants to make the White Dwarf the central and first medium for everyone to get first hand information on new GW releases.

Its not trying to un-invent the internet it's just trying to make WD more relevant. Rumours will still happen and these rumens will be answered in WD. Two hours after release it will certainly be all over forums such as this one. Don't see the issue with trying to improve a magazine that GW know is less popular than it was.

GW meeting "how do we improve WD?"
"I know lets put some articles, new releases and useful references back in as we used to"
"What a great idea"

Nothing will change except WD. Peeps here are looking at this at such an odd angle just trying to find fault. I know GW have done unpopular things but they should be judged without such a criticism pre-emptively.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry but I still fail to understand how the release of news solely through WD is supposed to dramatically improve sales.

I want to find out what is being released:
Walk into newsagents...

Not WHSmiths though, which cuts down on a lot of newsagents that people go into. I don't see White Dwarf that often any more, it's just not around like it used to be. I could almost see a glimmer of sense in this if they hadn't broken off their deal with the UK's largest newsagent retailer.

Not just their own stores either, WhSmith supply about half the countires independants with magazines and papers as well, so unless you are lucky to live in a John Menezies area, you'll only find WD in the local GW.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Can anyone else think of a company that tries this hard to to fight against the internet age? It was dumb in the 90s, it's deluded today.

Apple. They hate internet leaks to the extent that chinese workers who were responsible for 'missing' phones committed suicide. Yes. People died because of Apple's paranoia that was mistakenly passed on by the Chinese companies. Apple are a luxury goods company with a niche market and they have profits of billions of dollars. They made $6 bn profits in the three months leading up to December 25 2010.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Not WHSmiths though, which cuts down on a lot of newsagents that people go into. I don't see White Dwarf that often any more, it's just not around like it used to be. I could almost see a glimmer of sense in this if they hadn't broken off their deal with the UK's largest newsagent retailer.

WHSmith charge a premium for stocking a magazine and putting it in the front rack. I think GW were right not to let themselves get screwed over. I also know that in my local area (Croydon) WHSmith always put out WD early so our local GW store lost out on sales. While I like to support my local store, if they wouldn't sell me WD on a Friday then I'd buy it in WHSmiths because I cant stand going into town on a Saturday. GW were able to save money by not having WHSmith stock it and get a few more folks to their store.

AnkyG wrote:

Kroothawk]Hi,
I only have the German version of the GW newsletter, so someone else can post the English version please.

The newsletter describes the new direction that GW wants to take with White Dwarf starting with the July issue.
GW wants to make the White Dwarf the central and first medium for everyone to get first hand information on new GW releases.

Its not trying to un-invent the internet it's just trying to make WD more relevant. Rumours will still happen and these rumens will be answered in WD. Two hours after release it will certainly be all over forums such as this one. Don't see the issue with trying to improve a magazine that GW know is less popular than it was.

GW meeting "how do we improve WD?"
"I know lets put some articles, new releases and useful references back in as we used to"
"What a great idea"

Nothing will change except WD. Peeps here are looking at this at such an odd angle just trying to find fault. I know GW have done unpopular things but they should be judged without such a criticism pre-emptively.

Did you miss the part where they choked off any form of previews whatsoever? I wouldn't be surprised to see ANOTHER decline in rumors. You remember ye olden times? There used to be an age where the rumor forums were ripe, many rumormongers walked the meadows and we actually had some decent idea what was coming up in the next months. Now? Shots in the dark, far cries and something solid once preorders are up. After this? Well, I guess GW will punish any leaks even harder, which means that more informants will shy out of it. And I have no doubt that pulling things like the spreading of decent information shortly before NDA kicks in, like stickymonkey used to do for example, will result in complications. Most likely NDA will kick in even earlier. Nobody will know what is coming until it's actually there.

Just out of interest, what is so bad about finding out about a release 2 months before you should? What exactly does GW lose from this? Sales... of something that isn't out yet? Perhaps they think we could get bored waiting and not buy the items when they come out? I have never understood this mentality.

GW should make use of online media and printed media. Use the web to give sneak peeks of up coming releases, get people excited and talking. Use WD and fill it with glorious full colour, wam, bam, thank mam photos and articles. Something that makes you want to keep it and keep refering back to it for inspiration. Perhaps forget battle reports, because we all know they are designed to make the new army look cool.

Sales of existing models, possibly?

If you know that model X is being replaced by fabulous model X++, then you're likely to hold off on buying X

WHich is bad frmo a sunk costs perspective. Its the equivalent of stores not telling you about sales in advance - they'll take a punt that you're going to buy now, and they make a better return.

I'm still not going to buy WD - I've flicked through a couple of editions in the last 6-8 years, but have not read one since my brother had a subscription about 8-10 years ago.

I don't really care about "N&R" - I like looking at pictures of new models but that is about it. I can get plenty of that from the many different companies news letters I am signed up to who email me details of their latest stuff, WIP's, and upcoming products (along with when they will be released, how much they are likely to be, some fluff on the model if appropriate, etc)...

Orlanth wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

I think thats almost right but not quite.

Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by making sure that internet rumours become even more vague than the contents of our magazine.

I see little that will actually change in White Dwarf, its a tightening of information flow to Warseer and Bols and a tightening on what redshirts are told. There is nothing to indicate White Dwarf will actually gain in quality as a result of this.

True dat

Frazzled wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

I think thats almost right but not quite.

Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by making sure that internet rumours become even more vague than the contents of our magazine.

I see little that will actually change in White Dwarf, its a tightening of information flow to Warseer and Bols and a tightening on what redshirts are told. There is nothing to indicate White Dwarf will actually gain in quality as a result of this.

True dat

Agreed. The closure of other avenues of information and product previews like Black Boxes to stores (which were a nice perk to stores but cost GW money) is completely separate and independent of the quality of WD articles. Whether or not the discontinuation of the former leads to the improvement of the latter is yet to be seen...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sales of existing models, possibly?

If you know that model X is being replaced by fabulous model X++, then you're likely to hold off on buying X

WHich is bad frmo a sunk costs perspective. Its the equivalent of stores not telling you about sales in advance - they'll take a punt that you're going to buy now, and they make a better return.

Is that really going to be the case? I mean if you've got a new version of a model coming out in 2 months time, I would imagine the one is being sold currently is either not selling much anyway, as it's been around for a long time. Or GW have started to ramp down production on it anyway. If it was 6mts, 8mths, 10mths, etc, ahead of the the release I think that would be fair comment.

Kroothawk wrote:
But GW is risking this to get some internet buyers back into brick and mortar stores and get more information flow control.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

You CANNOT put the genie back in the bottle. Many folks dont play in FLGS, ever(you have seen a map of the US, right?) nor can you stop the internet.

Wolfstan
I have never understood the reluctance to pass on news and be open.
The various reasons offered as to why do not help, apologies to the apologists.

If GW want to stop rumours and misinformation the best way to stop it is tell the truth themselves.
It is like the old joke, you want everyone to read something stamp it "Classified"

The less info that comes out will only increase the amount and innaccuracy of rumours.


Howard
Good point. They pull out of the largest newsagents in the country and then use WD as the primary mouthpiece.
This is known as joined up thinking.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It is like the old joke, you want everyone to read something stamp it "Classified"

I do occassionally wonder if this actually is GW's marketing strategy.

amazing you mean they might go back to the early 90's where buying white dwarf actually could mean something to the game???

i stopped buying it the first issue that it came out without new rules/fixes.

Flashman wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It is like the old joke, you want everyone to read something stamp it "Classified"

I do occassionally wonder if this actually is GW's marketing strategy.

You think they might have something as grand as strategy?

I think they just throw darts at a big billboard with random mission statements written on (most of which simply say "price rise" ) and do whatever is written until they get bored and throw another dart.

Kroothawk wrote:The idea GW managers had behind this is to bring back customers to the FLGS and get first information there, and not the internet.

Eeeeeeexcept that they aren't gonna do a very good job of that, either, because the FLGS won't know what they're getting until release or shortly after release (hell, they may not even get the items until days AFTER release if this holds true, meaning the internet will have it first as usual even IF no leaks, which is a laughable prediction).


Frankly, I don't think GW understands how to deal with markets that are physically larger (in terms of distance) than the British Isles...

Wolfstan wrote:Just out of interest, what is so bad about finding out about a release 2 months before you should? What exactly does GW lose from this? Sales... of something that isn't out yet? Perhaps they think we could get bored waiting and not buy the items when they come out? I have never understood this mentality.
.

Well I think they have a problem with opinions from their clients concerning the products they sell, as such its their way to try to keep those opinions to a minimum...

carmachu wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
But GW is risking this to get some internet buyers back into brick and mortar stores and get more information flow control.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

You CANNOT put the genie back in the bottle. Many folks dont play in FLGS, ever(you have seen a map of the US, right?) nor can you stop the internet.

Dude, he's not the one making the decision for GW but simply stating one of their possible reasons (however incorrect it may be). No need to be condescending...

Right, don't blame Kroothawk for the fact that GW is incompetent.

Flashman wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It is like the old joke, you want everyone to read something stamp it "Classified"

I do occassionally wonder if this actually is GW's marketing strategy.

I did wonder this myself, being that its the strategy I would use (I work in marketing), then I thought nah! Not only are they going about it the wrong way but it just seems too clever when compared to usual operation.

A better analogy would be GW stamping something classified then throwing it into a river so no one will find it, then punching your grandmother a few times just case youre still thinking about that classified thing, then trying to up sell you something unrelated you just before you leave in disgust.

Uhhh... Do those in the GW head offices know that there is an app for that!

You can subscribe to an electronic edition of a magazine and download it.

So if they just made an electronic version and secured the purchasing requirements they could make money without having to print a magazine.

i'd buy the electronic version, i dont buy WD because i guarentee that i'd lose it, like i do all of my magazines...

Da_Viking wrote:Uhhh... Do those in the GW head offices know that there is an app for that!

You can subscribe to an electronic edition of a magazine and download it.

So if they just made an electronic version and secured the purchasing requirements they could make money without having to print a magazine.

People will find a way to torrent it and upload it online for all to see

Yes, but they'll do that anyway, so at least they spending the money at the printing press.

White Dwarf (and codexes) are available on torrents within a week of release.

warboss wrote:

Dude, he's not the one making the decision for GW but simply stating one of their possible reasons (however incorrect it may be). No need to be condescending...

So what. A dumb suggestion is still dumb. Vast majority of folks, in the hobby or outside, try and embrace the new media. GW is still trying to drag things back to 1990, which isnt going to happen. If you take that as condecending, hey thats your problem./

Marthike wrote:

Da_Viking wrote:Uhhh... Do those in the GW head offices know that there is an app for that!

You can subscribe to an electronic edition of a magazine and download it.

So if they just made an electronic version and secured the purchasing requirements they could make money without having to print a magazine.

People will find a way to torrent it and upload it online for all to see

How do Wizards manage with Dragon magazine then? That when online a few years ago. Funny how they can produce a magazine with actual content and have a website full of goodies, some exclusive to subscribers.

I suppose the real difference is that people are prepared to pay for Dragon magazine whereas White Dwarf is a load of crap that given half a chance people will download for free because that's all it's worth.

I used to use torrant sites to download a magazine called 3D Creative, however for the £3 a month it would cost me I could get it without any hassle and I'd be supporting a great mag. So now I pay for it every month. For this I get two versions, a hi res version and a low res version. I also get links to all the tutorial resources. Bargain in my eyes. The beauty of a mag like 3D Creative is that there ia no restriction on page quantity due to the print run costs.

Wolfstan wrote:The beauty of a mag like 3D Creative is that there ia no restriction on page quantity due to the print run costs.

That just means more space for GW adverts! Noo!

SilverMK2 wrote:

Wolfstan wrote:The beauty of a mag like 3D Creative is that there ia no restriction on page quantity due to the print run costs.

That just means more space for GW adverts! Noo!

Oooops, unforseen problem It is true though, they would bring out a mag that was 200 pages long, with 180 of them being ads, promoting themselves to people who already by their stuff / know about them !?!

Flashman wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It is like the old joke, you want everyone to read something stamp it "Classified"

I do occassionally wonder if this actually is GW's marketing strategy.

Nah. In order to implement such a strategy properly, you have to "accidentally" leave avenues open for people to "stumble across" your supposedly classified information. Unusual models "accidentally" get left in places where visitors to GW can see them. Or a GW staffer "just happens" to stick up a Necron picture that no one's ever seen before... and then suddenly yanks it in a "panic" after an hour or so. Shutting down leaks has been a part of GW strategy for quite a while now, so this appears to be just one more attempt on GW's part to shut off the rumor spigot.

What's the problem?
3rd parties can now scoop GW to their own products by finding out GW release dates and beating them to the punch by releasing similar products first or at the same time as GW.

Why is that a problem?
Because 3rd parties can release these items before (or at the same time) GW does and drive down demand for GW products, and thus affect their sales.

How did this become a problem?
Because GW prices have become high enough that 3rd parties can successfully compete financially by releasing alternative miniatures.

What is the solution?

GW's solution:
To control the flow of information such that 3rd parties cannot scoop GW on their own product releases. But this leaves everyone, including their own consumers and staff, completely out of the loop with regard to what to expect.

The common sense solution:
To reduce prices such that 3rd parties can no longer compete in a financial manner to discourage direct competition on their products by alternative products designed to be so similar that they can be used in GW games.

pombe wrote:What's the problem?
3rd parties can now scoop GW to their own products by finding out GW release dates and beating them to the punch by releasing similar products first or at the same time as GW.

How often has this happened? That people have heard of GW preparing something for release and then managed to rush through their own production from scratch and get it out into the shops before GW have released their product? And in either case, how many people who buy GW buy stuff from other manufacturers anyway? Or even appreciate the alternatives? Because there are a lot of people who only do GW.

I think all this is them trying to come up with solutions to problems which aren't a priority, GW have other issues with their business approach that becoming ever more paranoid about leaks will not address.

To quote princess leya from Episode 4 "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers!"
GW, dont let more star systems slip! Keep your players and be nice to them!

Newspapers and magazines are all having subscription problems, cause people use the internet to get information. Sounds like GW thinks rumor "leaks" are whats making subscriptions drop. These guys really do live in a cave.

Keep making buggy whips GW, and ignoring the automobile...it might just go away.

pombe wrote:What's the problem?
3rd parties can now scoop GW to their own products by finding out GW release dates and beating them to the punch by releasing similar products first or at the same time as GW.

They could, yes. They haven't, for the last 30 years... but that's obviously no reason not to be paranoid anyway.

dajobe wrote:To quote princess leya from Episode 4 "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers!"
GW, dont let more star systems slip! Keep your players and be nice to them!

Of course, GW's response to this is to commence primary ignition.

pombe wrote:What's the problem?
3rd parties can now scoop GW to their own products by finding out GW release dates and beating them to the punch by releasing similar products first or at the same time as GW.

Why is that a problem?
Because 3rd parties can release these items before (or at the same time) GW does and drive down demand for GW products, and thus affect their sales.

How did this become a problem?
Because GW prices have become high enough that 3rd parties can successfully compete financially by releasing alternative miniatures.

What is the solution?

GW's solution:
To control the flow of information such that 3rd parties cannot scoop GW on their own product releases. But this leaves everyone, including their own consumers and staff, completely out of the loop with regard to what to expect.

The common sense solution:
To reduce prices such that 3rd parties can no longer compete in a financial manner to discourage direct competition on their products by alternative products designed to be so similar that they can be used in GW games.

It doesn't really work that way. You don't go to the rumors board, look it up, go "Oh, GW is going to release a sumthinsumthin in three months", walk into your design studio, get a sumthinsumthin master sculpted, get molds done and produce enough units of the sumthinsumthin before GW gets it out. Actually, the 3rd Party Companies live of the things that DON'T exist, so making something that will get released in a foreseeable time will result in a loss.

Exactly, Korraz.

To use war gaming's kissing cousins RPGs, involved board games (like Fantasy Flight) and computer games, you get release schedules for years in advance.

We knew about the new Twilight Imperium expansion from FF what, six months minimum in advance? They've released new races and some of the new rules on their website.

Who's gone out and made another version to flog early?

Or created a new computer game to release from media released screen shots?

RPG companies will often release their release schedule for the next two years.

...not only that, one roleplaying organisation I'm with, the country's top GMs get PDF copies emailed to them before release so they can understand and consider the new rules and what they will and won't approve in this country. Sent to them by the publisher.

These guys getting them aren't employees, they're not paid, they're just GMs who have signed an NDA. What gets leaked? Nothing.

So essentially, the Joe Bloes off the street that are part of this world wide rpg organisation is more trusted by the publishers of the rpg system than GW is of its staffers.

insaniak wrote:

pombe wrote:What's the problem?
3rd parties can now scoop GW to their own products by finding out GW release dates and beating them to the punch by releasing similar products first or at the same time as GW.

They could, yes. They haven't, for the last 30 years... but that's obviously no reason not to be paranoid anyway.

Since these products take several months to prepare, sculpt, set up and verify, even if GW gave a few months lead time it would be nearly impossible for other companies to have similar products ready in time. Besides, there would be more money in filling GW's gaps than scooping them.

I like this. They're correcting an issue with their magazine. I will miss getting a preview of things to come of course.

To be honest, I don't blame them for wanting to clamp down on the rumor mill of the Internet. Every time GW releases new information ahead of release, it seems like the Internet jumps down their throats, and immediately starts in with the impending doom speculation. It's getting very frustrating and saddening to try to get some news on new stuff, or at least a credible rumor, and constantly finding only bickering about Games Workshop and people talking about how the slightest change in any direction means GW hates their customers. I don't get it.

As I've mentioned previously in this thread, Pouncey, GW has hurt customers so badly that unless they do something major to placate them and let the players feel the love again, very little they do will be viewed favourably.

Pouncey wrote:To be honest, I don't blame them for wanting to clamp down on the rumor mill of the Internet. Every time GW releases new information ahead of release, it seems like the Internet jumps down their throats, and immediately starts in with the impending doom speculation. It's getting very frustrating and saddening to try to get some news on new stuff, or at least a credible rumor, and constantly finding only bickering about Games Workshop and people talking about how the slightest change in any direction means GW hates their customers. I don't get it.

The problem is that they're going overboard with it. They're the only company I know of that refuses to releaese *any* information until the last minute. Battlefront's the only other miniatures company I know of that clamps down hard like that, and even they provide a look at what the major products are that you'll likely see during the coming year (the Flames of War previews generally show up a month or two before the associated campaign book goes on sale, and street dates for products aren't known until just before the end of the month prior). If GW relaxed things just enough so that players knew which armies they were likely to see get releases, I think it would go a long ways toward dealing with customer anger. But instead GW now has things so tightly bottled up that it appears that even store staff may not know what's going to be on their shelf next week.

Rumors exist because everyone wants to know more. So GW's response is basically to try and make everyone know less... which is merely going to encourage rumors.

I think it will be a passing fad, like when they decideed to start adding the card part in the centre years ago and upping the price with it. Couple of months later, the card gone, the price stayed the same. Even the Eldar nightspinner rules didn't get me to buy a WD, and I'm still baffled by the way they want no one to know what is going on with them.

Pouncey
I doubt if GW hate their customers or anyone seriously thinks they do. Sorry I just find the word "hate" is overused.

The problem is, GW make decisions that cause people to to perceive that the company shows little regard and respect for their customers.

Their image is not improved by this latest news.
People are used to, and expect information to be made freely available now. Other companies are able to use the internet to make the community feel involved in development and keep customers informed about projects.

GW go against providing information, and there is no good reason for it as far as I can see. There will always be discussion about new models and rules. Negative comments about Mantic hasn't dissuaded them from showing greens and concept drawings etc. It is no reason for GW to withdraw further from providing info.

I would be willing to buy White Dwarf on a case-by-case basis if, and only if, it were to feature the free miniatures, special rules updates, and some truly new and interesting content. As is now, it's a glorified sales brochure, as we all pretty much agree. I wouldn't expect it every issue, but if they did some new and interesting things like they used to long ago, I think people would actually be quite interested in the magazine. If they intend to keep it as it is, however, I think they should just discontinue the thing and save themselves the money.

LunaHound wrote:What on earth, was my post deleted?

Yes, according to the moderation log.

It could be a tactic to prevent other companies from trying to cash in with their own take on GW units.

Not saying it is, or making anu judgement about the possible wisdom, just putting it out there.

That has been suggested, however I think it is unrealistic due to the reasons others have given, i.e. the lead time to bring a competing model to market is too long.

From a practical viewpoint, there are heaps of "competing" models on the market anyway, which most people don't buy because they want the official version. The main issue here is when GW don't make a model of their own, and create a gap in the market.

The Chapter House Tervigon conversion and Doomseer came out long after the codex was released.

Fair enough skip!

I've been griping about White Dwarf ever since they stopped putting in role-playing articles - yes, that long, I still play WFRP 1st Edition. Since then the only issue I've bought in around 20 years was a couple of months back with the Dark Eldar release.

GW have the excellent opportunity to stay in touch with their customers through White Dwarf magazine. There needs to be optional rules printed, or even optional units, say rules for some Apocalypse models for regular game use. And tutorials, they need to go back to putting in tutorials on building scenery or ideas on designing your army to make them look unique.

And communication. Talk to customers more. Have customer feedback columns. I understand companies wanting to keep their secrets and GW are far from the only games company not forthcoming with information - the company who bought the Star Wars licence won't tell anyone they have it, and Wizards of the Coast, forget it!

Maybe this 'new direction' will be all players want and more. Doubt it.

Korraz wrote:
It doesn't really work that way. You don't go to the rumors board, look it up, go "Oh, GW is going to release a sumthinsumthin in three months", walk into your design studio, get a sumthinsumthin master sculpted, get molds done and produce enough units of the sumthinsumthin before GW gets it out. Actually, the 3rd Party Companies live of the things that DON'T exist, so making something that will get released in a foreseeable time will result in a loss.

Thanks for the correction.

However, then I'm at a loss to explain why GW wants to halt information leaks and force us to use WD as the only conduit for information. If they continue to release rules without miniatures, then this will always be a problem for them.

I will admit there is one thing that GW could do to make me reconsider buying WD again: replace the LotR section with a Specialist Games section.

Well I have hope this is how the NEW GW will be AKA Better WD, Better Codexs and Better Minis(which I think they stuff is the best).

Like others have said, it will improve for a while and then go downhill very quickly. All part of the cycle. I said a month or so ago that all these changes were geared to protecting the revenue stream from WD as it becomes more and more irrelevant. These changes won;t change that.

fullheadofhair wrote:Like others have said, it will improve for a while and then go downhill very quickly. All part of the cycle. I said a month or so ago that all these changes were geared to protecting the revenue stream from WD as it becomes more and more irrelevant. These changes won;t change that.

As I have also stated that this is part of their closed sourced proprietary business model. This is just more than protecting WD renenues. This is part of the system of protecting all of their normal revenue sources.

IMHO Draconian manners are being done by the Corporation due to the loss of their customer base.

More details on GW policy change as posted by the same person on BoK giving us the 6th edition rumours (actually this is how his post starts and the motivation to spill the beans):
http://bloodofkittens.com/network/members/rideroftheerk/activity/14616/

rideroftheerk wrote:I was told in privacy but can’t vouch for the accuracy. Corrected some spelling errors from icq conversation:

anonymus wrote:I am really pissed! The recent shift in GW’s marketing strategy is only the beginning. The goal is to completely control every bit of information that is going out and make every advance sneak peek look like an accidental leak. Think of Apple and you know what they are trying to achieve. They simultaneously try to keep the internet crowd happy with some leaked bits here and there and the store crowded focused on the next release. Prepare for more of these infamous “you see one eighth of the miniature and should stand in awe” pictures. The restructured White Dwarf will be the only place for “official” news. The days when Games Days were a good source for exciting news are gone. No more seminars.

Independent shop owners will get the info at the same time as the public. From autumn on product codes will be chiffres and retailers have to order bulk packages for new releases without knowing what is in it if they want to get the releases on the first day. If they want to buy the boxes individually they have to wait two weeks until GW releases the chiffres. Mail Orders won’t arrive on the day of release, they will be SENT on the day of release. So no more accidental early arrivals. If you want to buy a product on the day of release you have to go to a GW store or one of the shops that have bought the release package. There is no chance to get the products via an online store on time.

The retail embargo for the southern hemisphere were initially planned for every single country, so no more exports from UK to continental Europa, but GW’s law division stopped this as it would have violated EU laws. So now they will introduce two boxes for every release with exactly the same content but different boxes. One is for the retail in a single country and comes at the standard wholesale price. The other box has all the necessary taxation and regulatory clearances for export. These boxes are virtually the same but GW is charging an extra fee for them. Online shops can choose to stop exports or accept a serious blow to their profit margins.

We, the gamers, are sitting on the receiving end of this dishonest policy once more. We are treated like children and that is exactly the goal of these changes. So here are some of their plans, as long as the info is available, to spoil some of their surprises:

Seems like GW didn't take into account the number of staffers pissed by the new decisions and willing to ruin the information embargo.

I really don't see how GW can even begin to think that this is a healthy and sustainable way to engage with customers and drive their business forwards.

But then again, given the other decisions that have come out of GW recently, this doesn't really raise much of an eyebrow.

Cortez667 wrote:

Cortez, you are the first and so far only red-white soulmate I've seen here! Awesome!
We have to stick together here with all these black and blue dudes around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:GW wants to make the White Dwarf the central and first medium for everyone to get first hand information on new GW releases, that's right: before internet forums or sales staff get to know about the stuff.

White Dwarf is no Facebook; on print media they can control the feedback. Unhappy people are okay as long as they don't tell it to anybody.

While a LOT of people will see this as a bad thing, I'm at least glad they're working to at least make the magazine better.

Here a quote that might sum up GW's state of mind:

“We know that communication is a problem, but the company is not going to discuss it with the employees.”

http://www.blippitt.com/19-actual-lol-quotes-from-actual-managers/

It is very easy to hate GW these days because of their business decisions, constant price rises, anti-hobby copyright attacks and what have you. They have transformed from a cozy bunch of enthusiastic artsy gaming folks to another faceless corporation. Is it right not to like them and criticize their every move? I don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. But I do know that they themselves have put them into this situation. I wait for GW to open up and do something to regain our trust. I'd love to like them again!

Hey, I'll have a good reason to bother downloa...... errr "obtaining" White Dwarf magazines

I would considering buying them depending on what sort of quality we really see.

CadianCommander wrote:As I've mentioned previously in this thread, Pouncey, GW has hurt customers so badly that unless they do something major to placate them and let the players feel the love again, very little they do will be viewed favourably.

The silent majority of people who play GW games don't use the internet to find rumours, sit on boards and discuss how GW kicked their puppy, or even discuss it in general. These people, who make up more of GW's market share than us who do do these things, aren't affected by this at all, since they get any information from GW stores or White Dwarf. These are the people GW want to keep, since again, they are the majority of their players.

While their target audience is tech savvy young males, that doesn't mean the majorty of those tech savvy young males want to hop online and talk about 40k. This easy to conclude from simply looking at member counts on the big 40k fansites. Even adding them together, if GW operated on trying to placate a customer base that small, they wouldn't be a $200million company. Basically, GW know that the majority of people, who they want to keep playing, will buy an 'improved' white dwarf for updates to the game.

Honestly, sometimes I can't blame those people for not wanting to discuss their hobby online.

-Loki- wrote:
Honestly, sometimes I can't blame those people for not wanting to discuss their hobby online.

It's a secret shame and we all cope with it differently.

-Loki- wrote:

CadianCommander wrote:As I've mentioned previously in this thread, Pouncey, GW has hurt customers so badly that unless they do something major to placate them and let the players feel the love again, very little they do will be viewed favourably.

The silent majority of people who play GW games don't use the internet to find rumours, sit on boards and discuss how GW kicked their puppy, or even discuss it in general. These people, who make up more of GW's market share than us who do do these things, aren't affected by this at all, since they get any information from GW stores or White Dwarf. These are the people GW want to keep, since again, they are the majority of their players.

While their target audience is tech savvy young males, that doesn't mean the majorty of those tech savvy young males want to hop online and talk about 40k. This easy to conclude from simply looking at member counts on the big 40k fansites. Even adding them together, if GW operated on trying to placate a customer base that small, they wouldn't be a $200million company. Basically, GW know that the majority of people, who they want to keep playing, will buy an 'improved' white dwarf for updates to the game.

Honestly, sometimes I can't blame those people for not wanting to discuss their hobby online.

? just because something is online doesnt mean they have to be forced to participate in any discussion.
We actually have specific terms for that.

Lurkers.

That might be true Loki.
But it still begs the question, why exclude part of your customer base from information about forthcoming products.

Even if the silent ajority of which you speak do not wish to get involved in online debate, it does not follow that they would not wish to know in advance of what is happening in their hobby.

I was under the distinct impression that GW are not that bothered about keeping people playing as long as there is fresh blood to keep coming through.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:That might be true Loki.
But it still begs the question, why exclude part of your customer base from information about forthcoming products.

Even if the silent ajority of which you speak do not wish to get involved in online debate, it does not follow that they would not wish to know in advance of what is happening in their hobby.

They will know, and so will people who like to discuss stuff online. Now, they'll ideally (to GW) learn things at the same time, through white dwarf. People like us aren't excluded, we're free to buy white dwarf. We just don't get the news the way we used to. And that's the whole point, they're trying to turn white dwarf into the magazine you want to buy again, and part of that is making it the upcoming news source for their games.

While the news won't come early, it never really has from GW anyway. So moving it to white dwarf doesn't really mean we'll be getting official news any later. Rumours will always be around though, Don't assume for a minute that their clamp down will stop people leaking stuff online.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I was under the distinct impression that GW are not that bothered about keeping people playing as long as there is fresh blood to keep coming through.

That fresh blood is easier to convinve to buy white dwarf than veterans. They haven't been spoiled by whats offered online yet.

-Loki- wrote:
That fresh blood is easier to convinve to buy white dwarf than veterans. They haven't been spoiled by whats offered online yet.

And I thought that young people (fresh blood) were more connected and internet savvy than us long fangs. But since your demographic knowledge obviously far outstrips mine, I'm just going to have to believe you that the internet is grandpa's tool of choice, the real new tech on the block is printed media! Wow! Do I feel informed today.