After a thousand more posts we're moving onto the third incarnation of the "Ideas for the next Eldar Codices" thread.

I've summed up a lot of the ideas that got some sort of consensus in the two old threads and put them into a PDF. I've left all the points values blank for now, so that we can get some feedback to see if our existing ideas are vaguely fuffy and basically make sense! Please don't suggest specific point values yet, We'll establish those when we have a good overview of how the whole 'dex will look.

If you've got any suggestions for things to add/change then feel free to chip in, regardless of what direction the conversation seems to be going at the time. If you simply start your post by saying "@Howing Banshees" or "@Seer Council of Ulthwe" ect, if you do, I'll make sure to go through it and if it makes good sense then I'll add it into the next version of the Fandex


Anyway....Here it is

Alright, just something. I feel that the Farseer should have SOME kind of offensive psychic power. I'm not sure what it should be, yet, but I would just like to let them be something else than a force multiplier - while force multiplying would still be their main role.

YEAHHHH! MKIII!!!!

The avatar should probably have eternal warrior.

I'm not sure if you meant to have scorpions be able to get to 14, or wraithguard to be a 4+warlock, with option for 5 more.

I also still think shining spears need more help - they need to be able to be more durable in the 2nd round of assault, and I think the shimmershield should be fluff'd to be a larger, bike mounted unit which gives 4++ in CC. They probably won't be operating near a farseer. If their lances are retconned to work like executioners, that would be pretty good.

Something I'd add is that rangers/pathfinders stealth is not cumulative with Hoec's Less Than a Shadow.
Also, Wraithguards Extreme Strength should only work in close combat.

And I'm saying it for the third time: Star Lance should be an Exarch Weapon!

Otherwise I like it.

Thanks! Will review it and hopefully make some helpful suggestions.

Overall I think the dex is fantastic.
Some minor tweaks/questions

@The Avatar of Khaine: I don't see much of a change at all from the current version (which very well have been the consensus). I still think his offensive capabilities should be enhanced. Compared to other CC geared MC's he is pretty meh, often outperformed by trygons or maybe even the new Talos. I would give him re rolls to hit at least, maybe even another attack, and I agree that EW is a good call.

@Farseer: I don't get runes of nullification. Why do we need another anti psyker rune when we already have a really good one (runes of warding). Giving him both seems like overkill

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

@Fire dragons: Y you no fleet? Since they are awesome in CC with melta bombs now I think this is a no brainer.

Also I take it from their disappearance from the dex, that War walkers and fire prisms are fine as is (with heavy weapon point tweaks of course)?

Tortoiseer wrote:

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

+1 to this. In the current Dex, Move Through Cover is an Exarch power. They should either get this as a standard ability, or it should be incorporated in one of the Exarch abilities.
However, it seems that SS will be universally hated by EVERYONE now.

Wooly wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

+1 to this. In the current Dex, Move Through Cover is an Exarch power. They should either get this as a standard ability, or it should be incorporated in one of the Exarch abilities.
However, it seems that SS will be universally hated by EVERYONE now.

I would agree they need move through cover.

There was a lot of discussion and I thought agreement on adding 1A to all the aspects and perhaps 1 WS. The idea being that they are at least the equivalent of every veteran marine who gets a base A2. The WS idea is more a concession to the T3 that all eldar suffer from. This gives them more survivability due to more lethality and less susceptibility to things like khorne berzerkers.

Tortoiseer wrote:
@The Avatar of Khaine: I don't see much of a change at all from the current version (which very well have been the consensus). I still think his offensive capabilities should be enhanced. Compared to other CC geared MC's he is pretty meh, often outperformed by trygons or maybe even the new Talos. I would give him re rolls to hit at least, maybe even another attack, and I agree that EW is a good call.

Giving the Avatar something like Preferred Enemy against everything would make sense and give him the re-rolls, perhaps he could transfer it to nearby eldar like he does with Fearless.

@ Saintspirit: Wraithcannon is AP2, so a re-roll on a non-existant armour save is fine

@ Offensive Farseer ability: Mind War could effectively be made into a psychic shooting attack with the profile R24" S10* Ap1 Assault 1 Blast. * This power uses the affected models leadership value rather than toughness value. A model without a leadership value may not be harmed by this attack. Should a model be wounded by this ability, but have no wounds in their profile, the model is instead stunned and may not take any voluntary actions during it's next player turn.
No longer an assassination power, but it's more in line with other psychic powers and quite obviously a PSA. Aaaand it works against Dread-Librarians.

@PDF: Bloody excellent write-up, Gorechild! Stick more points in there and it's a functioning codex

Major things.

Autarch / Banshee: Banshee Mask (rules fix).
Currently Banshee Mask does not work as intended. Previous edition had the defender at I10 when behind cover, current edition has the assaulting unit at I1 when assaulting through cover. Suggestion:
"In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee Mask has Initiative 10 and negates any Initiative benefits or drawbacks due to grenades or cover."

Autarch: Logistical Espionage
It's a bit random. A roll to re-roll. I feel 2 is a good even number.

Autarch: Deception
Dangerously random. You don't know if you get to re-deploy 1 or 3 units, thus limiting how deceptive you can be. I feel 2 is a good number.

Warlock
These, surprisingly, only have LD8. Should have LD9. Mind War is going to be useless at LD8, but appropriate for a Warlock power at LD9 in addition to following the style of unit Sarge' providing +1LD to squad.
Also, have we scrapped the Warlock council? Can the Farseer take these as retinue?

Warlock: Spiritseer
...and any unit within 6"? To help Wraithlords out which can never be put into the same unit as the Warlocks.

Defender Guardians
I'm still uncomfortable with 2-for-1 deal on support platform upgrade. We're then back to a situation where 70% of the unit's cost has nothing, what so ever, to do with the unit's role.
Essentially, since the support weapons are all barrage, the unit is going to spend a lot of time shooting at stuff that their shuriken cats can't even target - and since they are cunningly no longer artillery the unit can a) move-and-shoot with them, but b) not shoot at different targets.

Fire Dragons: Exarch abilities
I think we'll have to discuss these specifically. This unit is extremely hard to get a good pair for, but I do like the anti-walker ability as this covers one slight drawback - but I must say this that a walker which has survived a round of shooting from Fire Dragons deserves to live (generally speaking, dreadnoughts have more than 27,8% chance of being out-right destroyed by a Fire Dragon attack - per Fire Dragon).

Vypers
Some minor points which forms a major one.
Unit size: Squad size is 3-5 with these pimped stats?
Crew-members: This has two crew-members, something which the BRB oddly allows the look of the model to dictate and heavily affect the outcome of the rules. Perhaps this should be specified for clarity?
BS/WS: Wouldn't these still be crewed by Guardians, unlike the super-pimp Warp Prism?
Attacks: Since it's two crew-members, wouldn't it have two attacks?
Pimping: Sorry for using this word, I'm tired, ok?

Wraithlord: Wraithsword
Does this still provide re-rolls in melee? If so, the base point cost could be extrapolated to the 120-125 region (BS/WS was increased as well, I note), with the additional Wraithsword coming in at at least +15 points.

Dark Reapers
2 minor things turn into a major point
Slow and Purposeful - the drawback here is that even if they do not shoot, they must move as if in dangerous terrain. The clash with the fluff is that the armour locks itself to form supportive exoskeleton when needed, and the unit is otherwise quite mobile.
Destroyer - I get where you are coming from with this, but wouldn't it make more sense if the Exarch himself was able to split fire (I almost wrote "doggy style")? It feels a bit artificial that this ability should stem from a weapon.

War Walkers
It was my impression that War Walkers were more or less agreed to be wrongfully placed in the FOC, but conceptually working? Now, this might change with a functional Vyper unit, but a War Walker squadron would make most sense as the preference for Fast Attack in an Iyanden list, or for that matter an Alaitoc list even though there's no obvious Alaitoc-style HS.

Minor things.

Farseer / Warlock: Singing Spear.
Effectively you are trading one melee attack for an upgraded ranged attack which is not compatible with Psychic Shooting Attacks. This upgrade ought to be free, or the range on the spear should be increased (in which case it would work admirably to provide a PSA-light for a Supportseer).

Autarch: Master Strategist
I have a feeling all of these stratagems could be made equal in effect, thus negating the need to pay for them or simply blanket cost them.

Autarch: Ambush!
Would it not make sense to allow a Alaitoc-style army to infiltrate units that are not inherently deceptive with this? "Up to two units gain Infiltrate special rule." Stick those Banshees somewhere it'll hurt. As an alternative moderation: "Up to two units may deploy as if they had the Infiltrate special rule, note that this ability is not conferred between dedicated transports and their host unit the way a normal Infiltrate special rule is and must be given to each unit separately for them to infiltrate together."

Banshee: War Shout
This falls under the rules limbo of "taking initiative tests for units without homogeneous initiatives isn't covered by the rules". If each model takes the test, I'd have to warn against huge amount of rolls!
Also, it's a bit weak for an upgrade that only functions on one turn. Might I suggest simply "models assaulted must re-roll rolls to hit"? If they live that long, they are probably going to do some heavy damage to the Banshees the following turn anyway. Naturally, this will push the points for the power up from 1-5 points range. to keep the points down somewhat, have it affect models in BTB rather than all of the enemy unit.

Swooping Hawks
I am happy

Shining Spears: Star and Sun Lance
Unless Star Lance and Sun Lance are specified to only be allowed during an assault phase in which the Shining Spears initiates an assault, then the Shining Spears will never be allowed to use their pistol+CCW since the Lances are special close combat weapons. Additionally, with a 12" assault range, the discharge option for the lance will be... limited... and only the catapults ever used. Match lance range with charge range?
"A Star/Sun Lance is a two-handed weapon which may only be used during a player phase in which the model initiated an assault. It strikes at strength 6(8) and ignores armour saves. In addition, it may unleash a powerful ranged attack which has the following profile: Range 12" S6(8) Ap2 Assault 1 Lance"

Warp Spiders
Even though we can discuss points (especially on the spinnerette), I am happy

Wraithlord: Heavy Flamer
I feel this is over-kill as the model is already half a god in melee.

Wraithlord: Wraithcannons
I like.

Now, I tried to clean this up, but it's honestly way past bed time so it'll probably not make sense enough. Just take it with a pinch of salt.

Love the move to mark III, though I haven't read all the way through it yet, I wanted to revisit the Avatar.

@avatar: What if there were two levels of avatar. The current one which would help lead you to take the avatar in smaller battles, affordable points, fairly powerful but not dominant. Then have another version, the greater avatar say and have him costing up around the 275-300 point range with comparable stats to make him a force comparable to a god of war. Thought of this because I thought I saw a picture of a Forgeworld avatar that was bigger then a wraithlord while my old style citadel avatar is smaller then the old style wraithlord.

I imagine the greater avatar would have stats perhaps similar to this?
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
10 5 7 8 5 8 5 10 2+

As well as his current abilities and some others?

Lot of great ideas in this MarkIII. So don’t think that I’m mercilessly ripping on this as you read. I like a lot of what I see in here.

I’m coming around to having a Falcon be a transport. Initially I was like WTF, but upon further pondering I can see the Falcon as an Eldar equivalent to a Razorback.

Like the idea of inclusive sergeants (Exarchs / Warlocks) on minimum points buy.



Autarch
So where are the weapon options? I still think he should get some sort of Exarch bodyguard like Court of the Young King from Craftword Eldar.

Iyanna Arienal
Really needs to be able to turn Wraithguard and Wraithlords into troops choices in addition to their normal (Heavy/Elite) slots. Having WLs be heavy is such bunk IMO.

Hoec
Better seved as a squad upgrade like Sergeant Namaan or Lukas the Trickster. And what’s the deal with Silence? Our Rangers get to crack open Land Raiders and Monoliths now? Snipers should be snipers. Mentor of Guile is pretty cool though.

Defender Guardians
First the minimum troop size is all screwy. I don’t think that there’s a ten man squad in the game (Troops not Heavies) the runs with 2 heavy weapons. Also the idea of transporting 10 Guardians, 1 Warlock, and 2 HWPs in a Wave Serpent is too ridiculous. If you start the minimum squad size at 10 and give upgradability to 15 or 20 still give the players the ability to go MECH at a cost of not having 2 HWPs or a Support Platform or the ability to slog it out fleet style with a HWP or an SP.

As far as the support weapon (Vibro, D-Cannon, etc) you should probably tie this upgrade to a minimum troop size IE “If the 5 (or 10) extra Guardian are taken you may taken an additional HWP for a total of two. Optionally you may forego an additional HWP and replace the first for a Support Weapon”

Wraithguard
Unit size should be kept at 5 + Warlock.
Extreme Strength – I cannot buy into “Tall = armor rerolls” Rerolling armor saves is also a bit unprecedented. Maybe give them the rending USR instead.

Harlequin
Death Jester…why is his heavy weapon suddenly a power weapon too? Are we just upgrading for the sake of upgrading? If you must why not just give him access to an HK or a PW.

Swooping Hawks
Haywire Blaster…Omg too OP. SHawks have always been anti troop harassers. I think you’d have a lot of people crying foul at a 24” Haywire gun.
Also the decision to not acknowledge Hawk’s Grenade Pack is a travesty fluff wise and mechanically.


Great Fandex

-MightyG

seapheonix wrote:Love the move to mark III, though I haven't read all the way through it yet, I wanted to revisit the Avatar.

@avatar: What if there were two levels of avatar. The current one which would help lead you to take the avatar in smaller battles, affordable points, fairly powerful but not dominant. Then have another version, the greater avatar say and have him costing up around the 275-300 point range with comparable stats to make him a force comparable to a god of war. Thought of this because I thought I saw a picture of a Forgeworld avatar that was bigger then a wraithlord while my old style citadel avatar is smaller then the old style wraithlord.

I imagine the greater avatar would have stats perhaps similar to this?
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
10 5 7 8 5 8 5 10 2+

As well as his current abilities and some others?

It's a cool, idea, no doubt. But it doesn't really help us with the whole, sticking-fluff-as-it-already-is idea. My point: Craftworlds only have one Avatar, born from one shard of Khaine. I doubt there are any Craftworld avatars that are stronger than others.


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MightyGodzilla wrote:
Iyanna Arienal
Really needs to be able to turn Wraithguard and Wraithlords into troops choices in addition to their normal (Heavy/Elite) slots. Having WLs be heavy is such bunk IMO.

Oh, I can't wait 'till I have scoring Wraithlords. No, seriously, don't you think it's a little OP to have that option? I mean sure, you might make it elite or something, but I don't like the idea of a T8 shooting platform that can also hold objectives.

Love the idea for Iyanna Arienal, but I think the wraithlord husband thing is a bit weird. Yes I know in the fluff she is described as having a wraith(lord?) construct acompany her but I think it's a little much. He attempts to rescue her if she gets into combat? B^#ch has a badass singing spear, and insanely good armour, why does he need to recue her, because right now that appears to be the only thing distinguishing him from any other lord. Surely anyone using her would already have another wraithlord in their list so why not just say that he's the hubby and forget about it?

Anyway on to other things

I think the farseer needs a good shooting power. In the fluff they're depicted snapping tanks in half with their mind so maybe just keep eldritch storm but make it a bit more powerful. I was thinking
Range 24" S:6 Ap:4/5 (or maybe S:2d6 Ap d6?)

Hoec- should only be able to join rangers/pathfinders or make him an upgrade sarge thing

Im still an advocate for Fire Dragons being able to swap their fusion guns out for flamers. Im sure few people would but i like the idea of the option.

The Wraith Special rule has a big problem in that they arent affected by poison. Now i agree that they shouldn't be affected by poison as much as other units but poisoned weapons still need to be able to hurt them otherwise D.E will have a nightmare trying to down a full squad of 10 wraithguard (or is it 9 now?). I was thinking maybe just make it so all poisoned weapons would on a 6 instead of their norm value. Also Wraithguard should count as two models for the purposes of transport.

Death Jester- Shieker cannon needs to add +1 strength

Thats all i can really think of right now, but still its an excellent start, and much credit to you for writing what looks like a promising fandex.

The browser ate my edit, so I'll keep it a bit shorter and to the point (yeah right...).

MightyGodzilla wrote:Defender Guardians
First the minimum troop size is all screwy. I don’t think that there’s a ten man squad in the game (Troops not Heavies) the runs with 2 heavy weapons. Also the idea of transporting 10 Guardians, 1 Warlock, and 2 HWPs in a Wave Serpent is too ridiculous. If you start the minimum squad size at 10 and give upgradability to 15 or 20 still give the players the ability to go MECH at a cost of not having 2 HWPs or a Support Platform or the ability to slog it out fleet style with a HWP or an SP.

20 man squads is a nail in the "dying race" fluff eye. By limiting the squad size to 10, it is still believable and makes for a more unique feel to the army where even the cheaper units must be given a purpose and can't be massed for victory.
While you are correct in that Guardians would then be the first unit to feature 2 heavy weapons in a single Troop choice in a 5th edition codex (if we ignore IF Heavy Weapons Squad which can feature 3 heavy weapons for significantly lower point cost, but at a lack of plastic wrap), this does not mean that it's a bad idea.
As a middle path, the Defenders could combine with Storm Guardians: "
* Any Guardian may replace their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon at no additional cost.
* For every five Guardians in the unit, one Guardian may replace his Shuriken Catapult with one of the following for 6 points:
- Flamer
- Fusion Gun
- <Range 24" S4 Ap3 Assault 1>
* A squad of ten Guardians may be given a Shuriken Cannon platform at no additional cost, which may be upgraded"

However, this is completely dogging the Space Marine codices, which may be a bad thing, since it also assumes that there's a Devastator squad in the codex somewhere - which an Eldar codex won't have. Devastators can choose their weapons, while Eldar aspect warriors may not.

In either case, I personally consider 9 extra Guardians clustered around an artillery piece ridiculous, having 19 extra clustered around the same piece would take the price in excess.

Wraithguard
Unit size should be kept at 5 + Warlock.
Extreme Strength – I cannot buy into “Tall = armor rerolls” Rerolling armor saves is also a bit unprecedented. Maybe give them the rending USR instead.

Tyranid Bone Swords.
There have been several other suggestions as well, for example making them Monstrous Creatures (power weapons with extra vehicle annihilation at the cost of significantly reduced cover claiming) or straight up power weapons, or power fists. This is the first time I see Rending, but Rending for a unit which essentially would pick up a spess mahreeen and then crush his head in the palm for it's hand... Wraithguard are large, towering, powerful machines. They carry weapons which an Eldar can't carry, physically, and likely a Space Marine would struggle to even lift.

Harlequin
Death Jester…why is his heavy weapon suddenly a power weapon too? Are we just upgrading for the sake of upgrading? If you must why not just give him access to an HK or a PW.

Death Jester's cannon is a power weapon simply because he isn't chosen very often. You sacrifice most of his melee ability for a ranged ability which isn't all that great and not too uncommonly sacrificed when running. Power Weapon Shrieker Cannon allows him to contribute a bit better in melee, and may encourage people to take this awesome model to the table.

Swooping Hawks
Haywire Blaster…Omg too OP. SHawks have always been anti troop harassers. I think you’d have a lot of people crying foul at a 24” Haywire gun.
Also the decision to not acknowledge Hawk’s Grenade Pack is a travesty fluff wise and mechanically.

Dark Eldar Scourges. 32 points for a model with identical stat and FOC as the proposed Hawk, although the Scourges can only take two-in-five with these weapons. I'm unfamiliar with Dark Eldar army lists, but I don't think this particular weapon is a favoured option since Heat Lance, Blaster or Dark Lance are all better options for the unit at only marginally more points, unless we're talking about damaging specifically Monoliths.

I never said dont make it a power weapon, i just think it should also be +1 strength.

Dragons' special rulecould be 'Intercept' as it is identical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, be careful calling the Hawks' rule 'Aerial Assault'- Dark eldar vehicles have a rule called that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than that, great work-I especilly like the idea for eldritch storm and the autarch strategems.

Wooly wrote:Alright, just something. I feel that the Farseer should have SOME kind of offensive psychic power. I'm not sure what it should be, yet, but I would just like to let them be something else than a force multiplier - while force multiplying would still be their main role.

I tried to move all the offensive powers to the warlocks to make them a little more desireable, If you have any suggestions though I'll be happy to take a look

Gwyidion wrote: I'm not sure if you meant to have scorpions be able to get to 14, or wraithguard to be a 4+warlock, with option for 5 more.

I also still think shining spears need more help - they need to be able to be more durable in the 2nd round of assault, and I think the shimmershield should be fluff'd to be a larger, bike mounted unit which gives 4++ in CC. They probably won't be operating near a farseer. If their lances are retconned to work like executioners, that would be pretty good.

I've amended Wraithguard, but I intended Scorps to have a max squad size of 15 (14 Scorps 1 Exarch), which is what it says
Changing the Shimmershield to being jetbike mounted would make DA's suffer. Just giving them to the SSpear Exarch in the same fasion as the DA Exarch would do the same thing though.
I thought we were intending the Spears to be uset to hit hard for a single turn, then either kill a MC or TEQ squad or hit and run away? In my mind, Shining Spears shouldn't be hanging around and getting bogged down in CC, so we didn't design them that way.

Saintspirit wrote:Something I'd add is that rangers/pathfinders stealth is not cumulative with Hoec's Less Than a Shadow.
Also, Wraithguards Extreme Strength should only work in close combat.

And I'm saying it for the third time: Star Lance should be an Exarch Weapon!

Otherwise I like it.

Saves can't be improved to any more than 2+, so it isn't really necessary to say it isn't cumulative. I'll ammend the warithguard bit though, we intended it to only be in CC, but I guess that isnt clear from the wording. Thanks.
D'you mean the star lance should be an exarch weapon for SSpears?

Tortoiseer wrote:Overall I think the dex is fantastic.
Some minor tweaks/questions

@The Avatar of Khaine: I don't see much of a change at all from the current version (which very well have been the consensus). I still think his offensive capabilities should be enhanced. Compared to other CC geared MC's he is pretty meh, often outperformed by trygons or maybe even the new Talos. I would give him re rolls to hit at least, maybe even another attack, and I agree that EW is a good call.

@Farseer: I don't get runes of nullification. Why do we need another anti psyker rune when we already have a really good one (runes of warding). Giving him both seems like overkill

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

@Fire dragons: Y you no fleet? Since they are awesome in CC with melta bombs now I think this is a no brainer.

Also I take it from their disappearance from the dex, that War walkers and fire prisms are fine as is (with heavy weapon point tweaks of course)?

Avatar - Good catch, I meant to include EW, I'll make sure to add that in. Prefered enemy might be a decent idea though, seems to make some sense.
Farseer - Overkill is what I wanted Eldar are meant to be the most powerful psykers, so I wanted to give them real control over the lesser races psykers. If you have any other suggestions on ways to do it I'm all ears
Scorps - I put "Stats - as now +1 attack" I couldn't think of a better way of explaining it without re-writing the whole stat line (that I don't have at work) and just changing it to A2. Move through cover would make sense, I just didn't want to give them too many special rules, maybe we could drop one of the other ones?
Dragons - Another good catch, Fleet was meant to be in there!

DAaddict wrote:

Wooly wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

+1 to this. In the current Dex, Move Through Cover is an Exarch power. They should either get this as a standard ability, or it should be incorporated in one of the Exarch abilities.
However, it seems that SS will be universally hated by EVERYONE now.

I would agree they need move through cover.

There was a lot of discussion and I thought agreement on adding 1A to all the aspects and perhaps 1 WS. The idea being that they are at least the equivalent of every veteran marine who gets a base A2. The WS idea is more a concession to the T3 that all eldar suffer from. This gives them more survivability due to more lethality and less susceptibility to things like khorne berzerkers.

I was having trouble destinguishing the roles of Banshees and Scorpions if they all had base 2 attacks, so I just addedd it into the scorpions for now. I can't really see why any other of them would need 2 attacks to be able to do their job properly, and I just think they'd feel less specialized if most units have the ability to throw out that many attacks. I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise though!

ZeroSamurai wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:
@The Avatar of Khaine: I don't see much of a change at all from the current version (which very well have been the consensus). I still think his offensive capabilities should be enhanced. Compared to other CC geared MC's he is pretty meh, often outperformed by trygons or maybe even the new Talos. I would give him re rolls to hit at least, maybe even another attack, and I agree that EW is a good call.

Giving the Avatar something like Preferred Enemy against everything would make sense and give him the re-rolls, perhaps he could transfer it to nearby eldar like he does with Fearless.

I've just addedd Prefered Warriror into my draft for the second version. Giving Prefered Enemy, Fearless and Stubborn seems a bit much, but it does sort of make sense I guess. I'll leave it a bit and see what the general consensus is

Mahtamori wrote: @ Saintspirit: Wraithcannon is AP2, so a re-roll on a non-existant armour save is fine

@ Offensive Farseer ability: Mind War could effectively be made into a psychic shooting attack with the profile R24" S10* Ap1 Assault 1 Blast. * This power uses the affected models leadership value rather than toughness value. A model without a leadership value may not be harmed by this attack. Should a model be wounded by this ability, but have no wounds in their profile, the model is instead stunned and may not take any voluntary actions during it's next player turn.
No longer an assassination power, but it's more in line with other psychic powers and quite obviously a PSA. Aaaand it works against Dread-Librarians.

@PDF: Bloody excellent write-up, Gorechild! Stick more points in there and it's a functioning codex

Thanks
As far as an offensive Farseer power goes, maybe something pinning would be good? It would be offensive but still fit into the whole support role. I'll leave the rest of your post until later, just to save my sanity

seapheonix wrote:Love the move to mark III, though I haven't read all the way through it yet, I wanted to revisit the Avatar.

@avatar: What if there were two levels of avatar. The current one which would help lead you to take the avatar in smaller battles, affordable points, fairly powerful but not dominant. Then have another version, the greater avatar say and have him costing up around the 275-300 point range with comparable stats to make him a force comparable to a god of war. Thought of this because I thought I saw a picture of a Forgeworld avatar that was bigger then a wraithlord while my old style citadel avatar is smaller then the old style wraithlord.

I imagine the greater avatar would have stats perhaps similar to this?
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
10 5 7 8 5 8 5 10 2+

As well as his current abilities and some others?

Thanks
We did discuss making the Avatar comparable to a Keeper of Secrets from the Daemons codex. Personally I'm a fan of having a 250+ point Avatar, but I think we came to the conclusion that, at his current level, he is affordable in smaller games and still does his job rather well.

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Autarch
So where are the weapon options? I still think he should get some sort of Exarch bodyguard like Court of the Young King from Craftword Eldar.

Iyanna Arienal
Really needs to be able to turn Wraithguard and Wraithlords into troops choices in addition to their normal (Heavy/Elite) slots. Having WLs be heavy is such bunk IMO.

Hoec
Better seved as a squad upgrade like Sergeant Namaan or Lukas the Trickster. And what’s the deal with Silence? Our Rangers get to crack open Land Raiders and Monoliths now? Snipers should be snipers. Mentor of Guile is pretty cool though.

Autarch: I was running short of space, so just kept the wargear options basic. Off the top of my head I couldn't think of (or find in the old thread) a decent list, I' open to adding other stuff though
Iyanna: Coppy/Paste from fandex "Spiritseer of Iyanden - An army which includes Iyanna may take Wraithguard units as troop selections. In addition, while Iyanna is alive, no units with the “Wraith” special rule automatically pass their Wraithsight tests."
Hoec:We were trying to introduce a SC for each major craftworld, thats the reason we came up with Hoec. Silence (in the S8 single shot mode) would be no more powerful against armour than a vindicare. And for a HQ slot, its his only real trick.

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Defender Guardians
First the minimum troop size is all screwy. I don’t think that there’s a ten man squad in the game (Troops not Heavies) the runs with 2 heavy weapons. Also the idea of transporting 10 Guardians, 1 Warlock, and 2 HWPs in a Wave Serpent is too ridiculous. If you start the minimum squad size at 10 and give upgradability to 15 or 20 still give the players the ability to go MECH at a cost of not having 2 HWPs or a Support Platform or the ability to slog it out fleet style with a HWP or an SP.

As far as the support weapon (Vibro, D-Cannon, etc) you should probably tie this upgrade to a minimum troop size IE “If the 5 (or 10) extra Guardian are taken you may taken an additional HWP for a total of two. Optionally you may forego an additional HWP and replace the first for a Support Weapon”

Wraithguard
Unit size should be kept at 5 + Warlock.
Extreme Strength – I cannot buy into “Tall = armor rerolls” Rerolling armor saves is also a bit unprecedented. Maybe give them the rending USR instead.

Harlequin
Death Jester…why is his heavy weapon suddenly a power weapon too? Are we just upgrading for the sake of upgrading? If you must why not just give him access to an HK or a PW.

Swooping Hawks
Haywire Blaster…Omg too OP. SHawks have always been anti troop harassers. I think you’d have a lot of people crying foul at a 24” Haywire gun.
Also the decision to not acknowledge Hawk’s Grenade Pack is a travesty fluff wise and mechanically.


Great Fandex

-MightyG

Guardians: We were keeping the squad cap down on guardians to prevent payers from taking hordes of them. Currently they really aren't worth their points, and improving them so they do justify their point cost brings them into conflict with Dire Avengers. We went through this for pages and pages in both of the previous threads, and this is the best way about it that we came up with.
Wraithguard: It not so much that they are just tall, they are prety much half way between infantry and MC's. As there aren't and Monsterous Infantry rules in 40k, this sort of special rule is the best we could come up with. If you see them in things like DoW2, they aren't just normal infantry, they are uber powerful.
Harlequins this entry was a last inute entry that Mahtamori put forward when I was finishing the fandex, they are a real work in progress. Feel free to give any suggestions
Swooping Hawks: We discussed hawks for literally months to come up with this entry. Their issue is that they dont really do anything that well at the mmoment so have no focus. We've redefined them to give them a unique role that would remove some of the armies dependance on Fire Dragons and free up more elite slots for competitive armies. I know it isn't really right going by their existing fluff, but it makes them a viable unit and allows a lot more freedom to take other units. They are fairly similar to DE scourges this way, so they can't be that over powered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spookman wrote:also, be careful calling the Hawks' rule 'Aerial Assault'- Dark eldar vehicles have a rule called that.

That where I remember it from! I just got it off the top of my head when writing it up, I knew it sounded familiar

Once again, We're open to suggestions for changes

The_Solitaire wrote:I never said dont make it a power weapon, i just think it should also be +1 strength.

I know, I was editing it for "clarity"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Farseer wargear
Rune of Force.
Version 1 "At any point in which the two basic dice rolled for the psychic test are doubles, the psychic power may not be cancelled or hindered by any external influences, though the Farseer may still suffer the consequences of perils in the warp as normal."
Version 2 "The Farseer may opt to burn the Rune of Force instead of making a leadership test for the psychic power. The rune may not be used again, and the psychic power is an automatic success which may not be cancelled or hindered by any external influences."

This means a piece of wargear which has the potential of countering psychic hoods, ignore Shadows in the Warp, and even force a psychic power to affect a model normally immune to psychic powers.
Neither version is a 100% safety 100% of the time. One of them provides a 1 out of 6 chance and the other 1 psychic power per game. In terms of frequency, the chance version crops up with similar frequency as the one-use without Spirit Stones and four times as often with a Spirit Stone. However, the one-use version ensures that you can pick the correct moment, since the chance based can very well not activate at a time where you'd need it.

Should be noted that the chance based rune makes a Farseer 1/36 more likely to succeed with the psychic test as well, since a double 6 would succeed...

D'you mean the star lance should be an exarch weapon for SSpears?

Thats right, just the name. I don't care really whet the usual SS weapon should be called, but the exarch weapon should be called star lance. I think laser lance if fine for the usual weapon.

^
Being very estetically pedantic.

[quote=GorechildI was having trouble destinguishing the roles of Banshees and Scorpions if they all had base 2 attacks, so I just addedd it into the scorpions for now. I can't really see why any other of them would need 2 attacks to be able to do their job properly, and I just think they'd feel less specialized if most units have the ability to throw out that many attacks. I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise though!

:

What if we gave the Farseer an offensive psychic power that revolved around opening a gateway to the Warp?
I mean, the Wraithcannons and D-Cannons already open gateways to hell, why not give the Farseer something like this?
One version of it could be like a different kind of Mind War where the Farseer sniped a model and the model would then have to make a leadership test (at a penalty mayhaps) to avoid getting eaten by daemons.
Another version could be giving it a blast template. Any model beneath it makes a leadership test or instant dies.
A third way to do it could be to mix the Farseer's support capabilities with aggressive force, opening a portal through the warp that the Farseer in question could move his unit through, like a big and more risky version of the Warp Spider teleport. Of course it should either be so risky you'd only do it once, get more risky after the first use or only have a limited range.

Your thoughts on this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:[quote=GorechildI was having trouble destinguishing the roles of Banshees and Scorpions if they all had base 2 attacks, so I just addedd it into the scorpions for now. I can't really see why any other of them would need 2 attacks to be able to do their job properly, and I just think they'd feel less specialized if most units have the ability to throw out that many attacks. I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise though!

:

Alright A2 for scorps means 5 A on the charge. If you don't give it to all aspects that is fine but I would argue you will make Banshees the poor sisters as they would be A3 at S3.

Go through 10 of given aspect attacking:

Scorps WS5 50 attacks 33 hits 17 wounds 6 dead marines or 15 dead orks.
WS4 50 attacks 25 hits 12 wounds 4 dead marines or 10 dead orks.

HB WS5 30 attacks 20 hits 7 dead marines or 7 dead orks. With 2 base attacks 40 a 27 hits 9 dead marines or 9 dead orks
WS4 30 attacks 15 hits 5 dead marines or 5 dead orks. 40 a 20 hits 7 dead marines or 7 dead orks

Without the +1 A for HB they are almost flatline with Scorps so they have limited value when you take into account that the scorps also pack a 3+ save meaning they are more survivable.

To add +1 A to the other aspects is secondary. While it may help DA combined with defend, it is not going to make them world beaters. The numbers of the other aspects are limited so pulling the bonus attacks is not going to make a difference. I think it makes it very easy when you consider aspects as the same base choice.

CC Aspect WS 5 BS 4 I 5 A2 W1 T3 Ld 9 Scorp & HB & Shining Spear
General Aspect WS 4 BS 4 I5 A2 W1 T3 Ld 9 Hawk, Spider, DA
Firing Aspect WS4 BS5 I5 A2 W1 T3 Ld9 Fire Dragon, Dark Reaper
Exarch WS5 BS5 I6 A2 W1 T3 Ld 10

Mahtamori wrote:Warlock
These, surprisingly, only have LD8. Should have LD9. Mind War is going to be useless at LD8, but appropriate for a Warlock power at LD9 in addition to following the style of unit Sarge' providing +1LD to squad.
Also, have we scrapped the Warlock council? Can the Farseer take these as retinue?

I've upped it to Ld 9, I forgot they are 8 atm.
I was thinking of leaving the seer council out for normal seers, they are too deathstar-y if we want to make Warlocks more powerful individually as unit leaders. It still leaves the option for having a seer council if you take the Ulthwe council though. I thought this would kill 2 birds with 1 stone; stopping Eldrad appearing in every single army list, whilst removing the deathstar unit. The seer council of Ulthwe can't take jetbikes, so would provide a decent (but not insane) fluffy HQ that exemplifies Ulthwe (or your own flavour of pro-farseer craftworld).

Saintspirit wrote:

D'you mean the star lance should be an exarch weapon for SSpears?

Thats right, just the name. I don't care really whet the usual SS weapon should be called, but the exarch weapon should be called star lance. I think laser lance if fine for the usual weapon.

^
Being very estetically pedantic.

I've changed that in my V2 draft just for you

There are a few things that we still really need to think about: Biel Tan special character. Pheonix lords special power and wargear (I'm going for the exarch upgrade for the time being), final tweaks to the Avatar and the Autarch Wargear.

I'm going on holiday on Saturday so won't be able to post for a week (being why I rushed to get this 1st version up), so If we can start trying to sort some of the HQ issues out now I can have stuff to think over whilst I'm sat in the sun, and I'll go through all the posts I've missed when I get back. Once we have all the HQ sorted out 100% I'll post the second version of the dex.

I like the idea of a Court of the Young King for the Biel Tan SC, but that might be purely due to the fact that it's the only idea that keeps coming up

Alright perhaps with FC. I just like the idea of all aspect warriors getting base A2. I mean sterngard vets get 2 and they are the shooty oriented SM veterans. I think it should be a base right that all CC aspect warriors at least get 2 attacks base.

DAaddict wrote:Alright perhaps with FC. I just like the idea of all aspect warriors getting base A2. I mean sterngard vets get 2 and they are the shooty oriented SM veterans. I think it should be a base right that all CC aspect warriors at least get 2 attacks base.

While it sounds alright, I would still say FC serves HB to all intends and purposes. Besides, I did some mathhammering on what was wisest, A2 or FC for HB. I suppose, I'll just repost it (Slightly editted due to the change in Mirror Swords):

Howling Banshees and an Exarch w/ Executioner (Furious Charge)
3 Exarch Attacks, 2 hits
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits
2 exarch hits at S6 = 1 2/3 wounds
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds
In total: 8 5/12 W

Howling Banshees and an Exarch w/ Executioner (A2 base)
4 Exarch Attacks, 2 2/3 hits
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits
2 2/3 Exarch hits at S5 = 1 7/9 wounds
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds
In total: 7 7/9 W

Howling Banshees and an exarch w/ Mirror Swords (Furious Charge)
4 Exarch attacks, 3 5/9 hits (8/9 hits from re-rolls)
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits
3 5/9 exarch hits at S4 = 1 14/18 wounds
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds
In total: 8 7/18 W

Howling Banshees and an exarch w/ Mirror Swords (A2 base)
5 exarch attacks, 4 4/9 hits (1 1/9 hits from re-rolls)
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits
4 4/9 exarch hits at S3 = 1 13/27 wounds
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds
In total: 7 13/27 W


This is all assuming your opponent is marines, of course. Also, like then I apologise if the fractions look chaotic, but they are a lot more accurate than percentages (1/3, my point is proven).

Gorechild wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:

D'you mean the star lance should be an exarch weapon for SSpears?

Thats right, just the name. I don't care really whet the usual SS weapon should be called, but the exarch weapon should be called star lance. I think laser lance if fine for the usual weapon.

^
Being very estetically pedantic.

I've changed that in my V2 draft just for you

Yay

Gorechild wrote:There are a few things that we still really need to think about: Biel Tan special character. Pheonix lords special power and wargear (I'm going for the exarch upgrade for the time being), final tweaks to the Avatar and the Autarch Wargear.

I'm going on holiday on Saturday so won't be able to post for a week (being why I rushed to get this 1st version up), so If we can start trying to sort some of the HQ issues out now I can have stuff to think over whilst I'm sat in the sun, and I'll go through all the posts I've missed when I get back. Once we have all the HQ sorted out 100% I'll post the second version of the dex.

I like the idea of a Court of the Young King for the Biel Tan SC, but that might be purely due to the fact that it's the only idea that keeps coming up

I came up with an idea for a special Bieltan autarch earlier, looked like this if you remember:

Reqhiel, Autarch of Biel-Tan - 175.
WS7 BS7 S3 T3 W3 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv3+
Unit type: Infantry
Wargear: Force Shield (4+ Invulnerable Save), Plasma Grenades, Banshee mask, Fusion Gun, Fusion Pistol (perhaps), Sword of Bahzhakain
Sword of Bahzhakain: This sword is said to have been a gift from Khaine, appearing in front of the Avatar of Khaine when Biel-Tan left the Eldar homeworlds. It fills the wielder with such rage that he appears to be possessed by the God of War. It is a power weapon which grants the wielder +D6 attacks - roll at the beginning of each round of combat - and the Furious Charge special rule.
Special Rules: Fleet of Foot, Independent Character, Master Strategist

...and then some special rule (like, being able to make one aspect squad scoring).

In any case, I feel the Biel-Tan SC should be an autarch.

With 2 basic attacks, you get the following situation on a charge:

Banshees.
MEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit, of which one wound, of which one kills.
GEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2.67 hit, of which 1,33 wound, of which 1,33 kills.

Scorpions.
MEQ: 5 attacks, of which 2,5 hit, of which 1,67 wound, of which 0,56 kills.
GEQ: 5 attacks, of which 3,33 hit, of which 2,22 wound, of which 1,48 kills

Harlequins.
MEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit and 0,67 rends, of which 0,67 wounds, for a total of 0,89 kills.
GEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit and 0,67 rends, of which 1 wounds, for a total of 1,33 kills.

In other words, while Banshees would be twice as good at killing MEQ as Scorpions and Harlequins being 50% better than Scorpions, the difference in killing potential against GEQ is negligible.
Thus, the balance between the three is eschewed. Banshees would be the supreme aspect for melee, with Scorpions niching in at infiltration. Harlequins wouldn't be taken at all.
Adding FC to Banshees in this situation would mean that the specialization of Scorpions being anti-GEQ have to be completely abandoned, and the question needs to be asked "is a melee infiltrator sufficient?"

Wooly wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Alright perhaps with FC. I just like the idea of all aspect warriors getting base A2. I mean sterngard vets get 2 and they are the shooty oriented SM veterans. I think it should be a base right that all CC aspect warriors at least get 2 attacks base.

While it sounds alright, I would still say FC serves HB to all intends and purposes. Besides, I did some mathhammering on what was wisest, A2 or FC for HB. I suppose, I'll just repost it (Slightly editted due to the change in Mirror Swords):

Howling Banshees and an Exarch w/ Executioner (Furious Charge)
3 Exarch Attacks, 2 hits
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits
2 exarch hits at S6 = 1 2/3 wounds
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds
In total: 8 5/12 W

Howling Banshees and an Exarch w/ Executioner (A2 base)
4 Exarch Attacks, 2 2/3 hits
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits
2 2/3 Exarch hits at S5 = 1 7/9 wounds
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds
In total: 7 7/9 W

Howling Banshees and an exarch w/ Mirror Swords (Furious Charge)
4 Exarch attacks, 3 5/9 hits (8/9 hits from re-rolls)
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits
3 5/9 exarch hits at S4 = 1 14/18 wounds
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds
In total: 8 7/18 W

Howling Banshees and an exarch w/ Mirror Swords (A2 base)
5 exarch attacks, 4 4/9 hits (1 1/9 hits from re-rolls)
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits
4 4/9 exarch hits at S3 = 1 13/27 wounds
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds
In total: 7 13/27 W


This is all assuming your opponent is marines, of course. Also, like then I apologise if the fractions look chaotic, but they are a lot more accurate than percentages (1/3, my point is proven).

The problem with this is that you're only looking at it on the first turn of combat, obviously FC is going to be more effective on the turn they charge. It really falls down on subsequent turns, but as I've said before, I think thats appropriate for Banshees; hit hard, hit fast, then get the hell out of there. Scorps should be the ones in long drawn out combats.

That would be my point too. As with Shining Spears.
S3 in itself is too heavily doom reliant to be any good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Except if you have the Seer Council HQ of course... the potential 7 psychic powers means that you can cast 4 Dooms a turn, which means that you won't be caring if you have S3, at least not as much.

Scorpions.
Special Rules: Aspect Warriors, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Fleet.
Exarch abilities: Defend & Stalkers
?

As someone noted, the Scorpion equivalent in Dark Eldar codex has 3+ armour save and still is Fleet. Maybe Scorpions shouldn't have the uber-fleet that the 4+ or worse Eldar have. With MTC and fleet, I don't think they need Master of Stealth (or Stealth²)
Defend would also niche them towards road-bumps, and a fully upgraded infiltrating road-bump Scorpion squad...

Wooly wrote:That would be my point too. As with Shining Spears.
S3 in itself is too heavily doom reliant to be any good.

And with 2 attacks (4 on the charge) @ S3, doom has a massive effect. 40 power weapon attacks with re-rolls to wound is alot less ballanced than 30 @ S4 for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Scorpions.
Special Rules: Aspect Warriors, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Fleet.
Exarch abilities: Defend & Stalkers
?

As someone noted, the Scorpion equivalent in Dark Eldar codex has 3+ armour save and still is Fleet. Maybe Scorpions shouldn't have the uber-fleet that the 4+ or worse Eldar have. With MTC and fleet, I don't think they need Master of Stealth (or Stealth²)
Defend would also niche them towards road-bumps, and a fully upgraded infiltrating road-bump Scorpion squad...

I think outflank would be more valuable than Infiltrate. Stalkers would require you to start the game in reserve, so infiltrate would be useless most of the time. Defend might be good. They'd become an epic tar pit.

Infiltrate grants Outflank to both the unit and any dedicated transport they are given.

Mahtamori wrote:With 2 basic attacks, you get the following situation on a charge:

Banshees.
MEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit, of which one wound, of which one kills.
GEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2.67 hit, of which 1,33 wound, of which 1,33 kills.

Scorpions.
MEQ: 5 attacks, of which 2,5 hit, of which 1,67 wound, of which 0,56 kills.
GEQ: 5 attacks, of which 3,33 hit, of which 2,22 wound, of which 1,48 kills

Harlequins.
MEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit and 0,67 rends, of which 0,67 wounds, for a total of 0,89 kills.
GEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit and 0,67 rends, of which 1 wounds, for a total of 1,33 kills.

In other words, while Banshees would be twice as good at killing MEQ as Scorpions and Harlequins being 50% better than Scorpions, the difference in killing potential against GEQ is negligible.
Thus, the balance between the three is eschewed. Banshees would be the supreme aspect for melee, with Scorpions niching in at infiltration. Harlequins wouldn't be taken at all.
Adding FC to Banshees in this situation would mean that the specialization of Scorpions being anti-GEQ have to be completely abandoned, and the question needs to be asked "is a melee infiltrator sufficient?"

The other thing to remember about harlies would be survivability. Hard to shoot at and 5++ invulnerable. If we are inclined to change harlies the easy things to do would be to change the kiss to being an automatic and no cost (vs a power weapon) and up the save to 4++ I mean the DE wyches have a 4++ in HTH and cost a fraction of what a harlie costs.

So the choice could be:

Scorpion: Anti-GEQ infiltration
HBs: Anti-MEQ and vehicle assault
Harlequins: Survivable but less anti-MEQ than HBs.

As far as a Biel-Tan leader perhaps make the Biel-Tan leader be the taking of a phoenix lord:

Change to FOC:

Elite: Guardian, Vyper, Harlequin, wraithguard

Troop: DA, Scorpion, Howling Banshee

Fast: Shining spear, warp spider, swooping hawk

Heavy: Falcon, fire dragon, dark reaper, prism, spinner, wraithlord, platform

Asurmen: Built in standard +1 attacks to all within 12". Stubborn

All others grant: Stubborn to their aspect only. Perhaps make them scoring (counts as troops)

Here's my thing with shining spears - they are fine in the first round of assault. They'll probably hit first, they hit absurdly hard, exactly as they should.

Here's the issue: After that, they fail. If they destroy their target, they are dead-dead. A unit of 5 space marines out of cover, most likely very close to the enemy. If they do not destroy their enemy, they either hit-and-run and hope for a good result, or stay in combat. Against the sort of targets they attack, if they stay in a 2nd round of combat, they are hitting MCs/terminators/etc @ S3, with few attacks, with no power weapons. They are going to lose, and suffer combat resolution.

Toning down their attacks to S5 power weapons (S3 +2S, or, executioners) gives them the ability to threaten in the 2nd round of combat as well. If you give them FC, they still get up to S6. If you give the Exarch's weapon +3 S, he still gets to S7.

Basically, one-shots don't work on the tabletop.

Or if that they are S6 only during the first battle turn, but are always power weapons?

Ugh, borrowing too heavily from Dark Eldar is unimaginative, but what if Shining Spears were able to fire their lances on any one unit they turbo-boosted over? It's nowhere near as potent as even Bladevanes (which averages at 2 S4 hits, where Shining Spears would average at 2/3 S6 Ap2 hits, and Shining Spears do not have the same speed, although higher save).
Shining Spears in melee could then be made more interesting with other toys.

That would still require them to end or start their turn within 12" of an enemy unit. The only way they are viable in their incarnation in the fandex is they have a 24" charge range.

They need to be better in the 2nd round of assault. They are assault units, and as they currently are, getting them into assault ends in their death no matter what the result. If you are tactically savvy enough to get them into assault at full strength, you should be rewarded.

Wooly wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Iyanna Arienal
Really needs to be able to turn Wraithguard and Wraithlords into troops choices in addition to their normal (Heavy/Elite) slots. Having WLs be heavy is such bunk IMO.

Oh, I can't wait 'till I have scoring Wraithlords. No, seriously, don't you think it's a little OP to have that option? I mean sure, you might make it elite or something, but I don't like the idea of a T8 shooting platform that can also hold objectives.

Well here what i was thinking.

1. You couldn't pull that off unless you're using the corresponding HQ. So there's a points cost involved that a player may not necessarily be willing to play unless he's representing a certain FOC theme or a certain band of fluff. Either one would have cool with me.
2. Going back to the Iyanden FOC from Craftworld Eldar Wraithlords already have a history of being in the Troops choice. We could do something like if said HQ was chosen then up to two (or whatever quantity) units of either Wraithguard or Wraithlord may be chosen as troops. To keep things from getting out of hand, because I see the point you're trying to get across with eldar going all Nidzilla with WLs.
3. You could even say that as a prerequisite for every scoring WL (troops choice) there had to be a selection of Scoring WG (10 WG with Spiritseer) on the field as well. I personally don't like this as much as 2. but maybe this could be an option if we didn't want the corresponding HQ.
4. People hype that 1 WL isn't worth taking, but 3 certainly are. I personally don't want to have 3 WL take up all of my heavy slots. I would be okay with a 0-1 Heavy choice consisting of 1-3 WL that could be placed independantly.
5. I know that I'm focusing more on WL than WG. Personally I don't see the problem moving them out of Elites into Troops entirely. WG are points intensive and would have to contest with some very solid units so I don't thing anyone but a Wraith player would make that swing en masse. This move would lessen the congestion in the Elites slots and not necessarily overburden the Troops slots.

My problem is that the eldar are too cool. Their heavy and elites choices are so impacted. SMs get around this by making their dreads elites, but in the SM FOC the Dread is only ever going up against Termies or Vets (but not both). So SMs effectively get up to 6 Heavy choices. Eldar elites have a variety of coolness, so you don't really want the WL in there, and in no way shape or form are they FA. And to boot we've got historical fluff and rules that we can draw upon and update to make our codex just as scary as the ones that have been coming out.

I personally like to play a variety of stuff every game and the FOC doesn't let me do that right now. I get around it by trying different units in every game. But I'd like to play a Haran army without it being Apocolypse scale.

I'm going to lunch. I'll chime in on some other stuff later today.

-MightyG

Mahtamori wrote:The browser ate my edit, so I'll keep it a bit shorter and to the point (yeah right...).

MightyGodzilla wrote:Defender Guardians
First the minimum troop size is all screwy. I don’t think that there’s a ten man squad in the game (Troops not Heavies) the runs with 2 heavy weapons. Also the idea of transporting 10 Guardians, 1 Warlock, and 2 HWPs in a Wave Serpent is too ridiculous. If you start the minimum squad size at 10 and give upgradability to 15 or 20 still give the players the ability to go MECH at a cost of not having 2 HWPs or a Support Platform or the ability to slog it out fleet style with a HWP or an SP.

20 man squads is a nail in the "dying race" fluff eye. By limiting the squad size to 10, it is still believable and makes for a more unique feel to the army where even the cheaper units must be given a purpose and can't be massed for victory.
While you are correct in that Guardians would then be the first unit to feature 2 heavy weapons in a single Troop choice in a 5th edition codex (if we ignore IF Heavy Weapons Squad which can feature 3 heavy weapons for significantly lower point cost, but at a lack of plastic wrap), this does not mean that it's a bad idea.
As a middle path, the Defenders could combine with Storm Guardians: "
* Any Guardian may replace their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon at no additional cost.
* For every five Guardians in the unit, one Guardian may replace his Shuriken Catapult with one of the following for 6 points:
- Flamer
- Fusion Gun
- <Range 24" S4 Ap3 Assault 1>
* A squad of ten Guardians may be given a Shuriken Cannon platform at no additional cost, which may be upgraded"

However, this is completely dogging the Space Marine codices, which may be a bad thing, since it also assumes that there's a Devastator squad in the codex somewhere - which an Eldar codex won't have. Devastators can choose their weapons, while Eldar aspect warriors may not.

In either case, I personally consider 9 extra Guardians clustered around an artillery piece ridiculous, having 19 extra clustered around the same piece would take the price in excess.

Gorechild wrote:Guardians: We were keeping the squad cap down on guardians to prevent payers from taking hordes of them. Currently they really aren't worth their points, and improving them so they do justify their point cost brings them into conflict with Dire Avengers. We went through this for pages and pages in both of the previous threads, and this is the best way about it that we came up with.

Great discussion. Glad to be a part of it.

My take on the dieing race fluff. Ya they have had a shitton of their planets destroyed and they’re on the run from Slannesh because their souls don’t go in the recycle bin anymore…instead a demon eats them. But their craftwords are the size of large cities…a large city the size of New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles are in the millions…even a small “large city” could be 500,000. So I kind of think of them like I do the Tau. As a race not in its prime, in the Tau’s case it’s because their a young race, for the Eldar it’s because of some catastrophe. That being said no one worries about the Tau fielding a lot of Fire Warriors. So I can buy into the fielding 3 squads of 20 guardian/storms because its only 60 guys out of 500k, deployed only after the Farseer did everything he could to get out of the battle in the first place. My ideal deployment is 1 squad Rangers, 3 squads of Das, 2 squads of 15 or 20 man Defenders.

Mechanically. Guardians suck and the only thing that makes them good is the swarm factor. As they as are, you wouldn’t want to MECH with them. Aspects make way more sense in the can and I’ll leave it at that. Guardians only purpose is to get destroyed while holding an objective. The shuriken catapults 12” range means that you’re not firing at all, or if you are close enough to fire you’re going to get assaulted the next turn if you don’t assault yourself. In squads of 10 when guardians get assaulted they get wiped out 1. Because they couldn’t do enough damage on their fire turn to widdle down the assaulters because of their squad size and 2. Because of the 12” ranges of their weapons, they only get one turn of fire before they’re assaulted.
If you keep them with the ability to go to 20 you can put some hurt on a squad you engaged at range. People will also think twice about charging a unit at full size. And you’re not running off the table if you’ve had 6-7 guys die do to fire. Mixing Storms and Defenders is classicly a bad idea because you only get half of what you pay for because the other half isn’t participating at full effectiveness.

I noticed you put down 18 on the range for the Shuriken Catapults….doing so makes the Dire Avengers useless once again. If you’re firm on this you may want to up the range on the DACatapults to 24…but as the Shuriken Catapult has always been described as an inaccurate weapon relying on its devastating rate of fire I don’t know how I feel about that either.

Just my take on stuff. Leave the 20 man option in. Those with different takes on the fluff/mechanics will use more or less as they see fit. Now as far as making them viable. Include the warlock in the initial points buy and for god’s sake make him cheaper (20 guys + Warlock with Conceal= 200pts =10 points per man, more factoring the HWP). I like Mahtamori’s Fusion/Flamer upgrade for one of every five guardians. I also like the idea of a platform at 5 and 15 men or 10 and 20 men. Not necessarily free, but upgradable. I don’t like 5 and 10 however. I’ve always played that platforms were transportable by Falcons/Serpents because I’ve never seen a ruling to the otherwise. I can imagine a Serpent toting 10 defenders, a warlock, and 2 HWPs….can’t do it….not…enough…room. I also like the previously mentioned, trade in your (2) HWPs for a Support Weapon – I like that idea a lot.

Defender Guardians: 75 points
Unit Size 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 HWP with Shuriken Cannon.
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Fleet
Wargear:Shuriken Catapult (Guardians), Witchblade (Warlock)

Options: Up to 15 additional Guardians may be purchased for 8 points a model. 1 Guardian out of every five may replace his shuriken catapult for a flamer (6 pts) or fusion gun (8 pts). If the number of guardians in the squad a number at least 15 a second HWP with Shuriken Cannon is provided at no additional points cost.

Warlock may take any of the options from the Warlock Entry.

Any shuriken cannon HWP may be upgraded to: Star Cannon (XX points), Scatter Laser (XX points), Eldar Missile Launcher (XX points), or Bright Lance (XX points). Alternately If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, both of them may be replaced with a single support weapon: D-Cannon (x points), Vibro-cannon (XX points) or Shadow Weaver (XX points).

Any unit sizing 6 models or less may take a Falcon as a dedicated transport, any unit sizing 12 models or less may take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.

So here are your possible configurations.
5 Defenders, Warlock, 1 HWP, 1 Spl Wpn
10 Defenders, Warlock, 1 HWP, 2 Spl Wpns
15 Defenders, Warlock, 2 HWPs, 3 Spl Wpns
15 Defenders, Warlock, 1 Support WP, 3 Spl Wpns
20 Defenders, Warlock, 2 HWPs, 4 Spl Wpns
20 Defenders, Warlock, 1 Support WP, 4 Spl Wpns

Anyways that’s my proposition combined with your efforts and my reasoning behind. C + C.

-MightyG

MightyGodzilla wrote:

Great discussion. Glad to be a part of it.

My take on the dieing race fluff. Ya they have had a shitton of their planets destroyed and they’re on the run from Slannesh because their souls don’t go in the recycle bin anymore…instead a demon eats them. But their craftwords are the size of large cities…a large city the size of New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles are in the millions…even a small “large city” could be 500,000. So I kind of think of them like I do the Tau. As a race not in its prime, in the Tau’s case it’s because their a young race, for the Eldar it’s because of some catastrophe. That being said no one worries about the Tau fielding a lot of Fire Warriors. So I can buy into the fielding 3 squads of 20 guardian/storms because its only 60 guys out of 500k, deployed only after the Farseer did everything he could to get out of the battle in the first place. My ideal deployment is 1 squad Rangers, 3 squads of Das, 2 squads of 15 or 20 man Defenders.

Mechanically. Guardians suck and the only thing that makes them good is the swarm factor. As they as are, you wouldn’t want to MECH with them. Aspects make way more sense in the can and I’ll leave it at that. Guardians only purpose is to get destroyed while holding an objective. The shuriken catapults 12” range means that you’re not firing at all, or if you are close enough to fire you’re going to get assaulted the next turn if you don’t assault yourself. In squads of 10 when guardians get assaulted they get wiped out 1. Because they couldn’t do enough damage on their fire turn to widdle down the assaulters because of their squad size and 2. Because of the 12” ranges of their weapons, they only get one turn of fire before they’re assaulted.
If you keep them with the ability to go to 20 you can put some hurt on a squad you engaged at range. People will also think twice about charging a unit at full size. And you’re not running off the table if you’ve had 6-7 guys die do to fire. Mixing Storms and Defenders is classicly a bad idea because you only get half of what you pay for because the other half isn’t participating at full effectiveness.

I noticed you put down 18 on the range for the Shuriken Catapults….doing so makes the Dire Avengers useless once again. If you’re firm on this you may want to up the range on the DACatapults to 24…but as the Shuriken Catapult has always been described as an inaccurate weapon relying on its devastating rate of fire I don’t know how I feel about that either.

Just my take on stuff. Leave the 20 man option in. Those with different takes on the fluff/mechanics will use more or less as they see fit. Now as far as making them viable. Include the warlock in the initial points buy and for god’s sake make him cheaper (20 guys + Warlock with Conceal= 200pts =10 points per man, more factoring the HWP). I like Mahtamori’s Fusion/Flamer upgrade for one of every five guardians. I also like the idea of a platform at 5 and 15 men or 10 and 20 men. Not necessarily free, but upgradable. I don’t like 5 and 10 however. I’ve always played that platforms were transportable by Falcons/Serpents because I’ve never seen a ruling to the otherwise. I can imagine a Serpent toting 10 defenders, a warlock, and 2 HWPs….can’t do it….not…enough…room. I also like the previously mentioned, trade in your (2) HWPs for a Support Weapon – I like that idea a lot.

Defender Guardians: 75 points
Unit Size 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 HWP with Shuriken Cannon.
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Fleet
Wargear:Shuriken Catapult (Guardians), Witchblade (Warlock)

Options: Up to 15 additional Guardians may be purchased for 8 points a model. 1 Guardian out of every five may replace his shuriken catapult for a flamer (6 pts) or fusion gun (8 pts). If the number of guardians in the squad a number at least 15 a second HWP with Shuriken Cannon is provided at no additional points cost.

Warlock may take any of the options from the Warlock Entry.

Any shuriken cannon HWP may be upgraded to: Star Cannon (XX points), Scatter Laser (XX points), Eldar Missile Launcher (XX points), or Bright Lance (XX points). Alternately If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, both of them may be replaced with a single support weapon: D-Cannon (x points), Vibro-cannon (XX points) or Shadow Weaver (XX points).

Any unit sizing 6 models or less may take a Falcon as a dedicated transport, any unit sizing 12 models or less may take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.

So here are your possible configurations.
5 Defenders, Warlock, 1 HWP, 1 Spl Wpn
10 Defenders, Warlock, 1 HWP, 2 Spl Wpns
15 Defenders, Warlock, 2 HWPs, 3 Spl Wpns
15 Defenders, Warlock, 1 Support WP, 3 Spl Wpns
20 Defenders, Warlock, 2 HWPs, 4 Spl Wpns
20 Defenders, Warlock, 1 Support WP, 4 Spl Wpns

Anyways that’s my proposition combined with your efforts and my reasoning behind. C + C.

-MightyG

I'm conflicted about this. While I do like the possible configurations you have listed, I also have a problem with the idea of guardian hordes/The dieing race problem.
Guardians are not used like Tau firewarriors, who are both the premier warrior caste and comprise the entirety of the Tau military (on the ground). Guardians are only employed when absolutely necessary, as the eldar are highly protective of their people's lives and rely on Aspect warriors to form the core of their strike forces. Tau also reproduce much more quickly than eldar do
When Guardians are used in battle, their role is to provide fire support and this is why I don't think the idea of a 10 man squad with two HWP's is a problem. Their BS is only 3 remember.
A 20 man squad is just too many bodies for an army of excellence like the eldar (though I realize guardians are not that excellent). I think 15 should be as high as we might go.

I don't have a problem with a max of 15 per se. Hell the last time I made a list my guardians were at 15. I realize that a max of 20 is a bit unwieldy for some players mechanically. But I'm also used to seeing that max of 20 from 3rd ed forward. I think I'm going to dig out the 2nd Ed Codex and see how they were sized back then.

I still can't really dig the 2 HWPs per 10 man (although I don't have a problem with 2 HWPs per 15man). With the special weapon options per 5 man in a 10 man squad your either proposing a 2 HWP 2 Spl Weap which is kind of ridiculous for 8 point troops with a BS of 3 or 2 HWPs and 1 Spl Weap which is kind of wierd (the more Heavies than Spls)

Also your proposition on 2 HWPs per 10 man combined with the lower transport cost is going to make Eldar MECH hell. Every unit will be transported in a serpent disgorging multiple HWPs and special weapons in the Eldar Serpent of Fury (Tau's FOF). That's great and all for a WAAC Eldar player, but that's never how I've envisioned my guardians operating on the field.

Gonna run a few errands and I'll hit the 2nd and 3rd ed codices....I'll be back.

-MightyG

I agree that having both multiple HWP's and SW's in the same squad is pretty OP and also kinda silly. Eldar do not take the space marine 'lets have a bit of everything' approach to their squads.
How about instead we say that for every 5 guardians they may take either a SW or a HWP. That way you can go all SW for close range oriented guardians (are storm guardians still an option here?) or all HWP for long range fire support. There is still a little room for people to be silly and take a bit of both but I don't think anyone would do that.

@ phoenix lords

Thoughts on one of the special rules that could be added to the phoenix lords, along with their eternal warrior, how about a rebirth. Fluff wise it fits with path or the warrior when Karandras is reborn by death of an Exarch. That could be brought in so that if your phoenix lord dies, you can sacrifice an exarch of the appropriate aspect. Maybe it only works on a dice roll similar to the We'll be back from the Necrons.

Never ending Cycle: If reduced to 0 wounds the phoenix lord may return to full health by absorbing the soul of an exarch of the appropriate aspect. Remove an exarch within 6" from the table and on a roll of 3+(2+ I don't know) the Phoenix lord is reborn with all wounds.

Tortoiseer wrote:I agree that having both multiple HWP's and SW's in the same squad is pretty OP and also kinda silly. Eldar do not take the space marine 'lets have a bit of everything' approach to their squads.
How about instead we say that for every 5 guardians they may take either a SW or a HWP. That way you can go all SW for close range oriented guardians (are storm guardians still an option here?) or all HWP for long range fire support. There is still a little room for people to be silly and take a bit of both but I don't think anyone would do that.

I believe the idea as it is now is that you have 2 HWPs at a maxed 10 man squad, potentially. However, you can forfeit your possibility to get a second HWP and instead upgrade your current HWP to a SW. My point: I don't really see why they aren't specialised as it is?

And in regards to DA getting useless with guardians having 18" range: I don't believe that. DA aim better and have better stats. Sure guardians have as many shots, but they only have 50% accuracy, AND they lack Bladestorm... and the higher leadership... and the exarch... and the better save... and the higher initiative... and the possibility to actually do something in combat (it's not a lot, but even in their current incarnations, I have wiped ork squads by assaulting them for gaks and giggles). Bottom line: DA are plenty useful. I do agree though, that if we have the possibility of taking 20 ing guardians, then DA are only viable as a mech incarnation, given that guardians have 18" range.

Wooly wrote:And in regards to DA getting useless with guardians having 18" range: I don't believe that. DA aim better and have better stats. Sure guardians have as many shots, but they only have 50% accuracy, AND they lack Bladestorm... and the higher leadership... and the exarch... and the better save... and the higher initiative... and the possibility to actually do something in combat (it's not a lot, but even in their current incarnations, I have wiped ork squads by assaulting them for gaks and giggles). Bottom line: DA are plenty useful. I do agree though, that if we have the possibility of taking 20 ing guardians, then DA are only viable as a mech incarnation, given that guardians have 18" range.

Look at the DA's entry again, we've got them down as S5, that alone makes them stand out.

Oh, right.
I was just trying to get the point across DA advantages.

Gorechild wrote:

Wooly wrote:And in regards to DA getting useless with guardians having 18" range: I don't believe that. DA aim better and have better stats. Sure guardians have as many shots, but they only have 50% accuracy, AND they lack Bladestorm... and the higher leadership... and the exarch... and the better save... and the higher initiative... and the possibility to actually do something in combat (it's not a lot, but even in their current incarnations, I have wiped ork squads by assaulting them for gaks and giggles). Bottom line: DA are plenty useful. I do agree though, that if we have the possibility of taking 20 ing guardians, then DA are only viable as a mech incarnation, given that guardians have 18" range.

Look at the DA's entry again, we've got them down as S5, that alone makes them stand out.

Just to play devil's advocate - and now you shat upon the Tau. I am really fine with the DA as they are today. They work. They don't need to have their version of the catapult improved however that puts the onus on what change can you make to the guardian catapult that will make it better than a 1 shot and die weapon.

DAaddict wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Wooly wrote:And in regards to DA getting useless with guardians having 18" range: I don't believe that. DA aim better and have better stats. Sure guardians have as many shots, but they only have 50% accuracy, AND they lack Bladestorm... and the higher leadership... and the exarch... and the better save... and the higher initiative... and the possibility to actually do something in combat (it's not a lot, but even in their current incarnations, I have wiped ork squads by assaulting them for gaks and giggles). Bottom line: DA are plenty useful. I do agree though, that if we have the possibility of taking 20 ing guardians, then DA are only viable as a mech incarnation, given that guardians have 18" range.

Look at the DA's entry again, we've got them down as S5, that alone makes them stand out.

Just to play devil's advocate - and now you shat upon the Tau. I am really fine with the DA as they are today. They work. They don't need to have their version of the catapult improved however that puts the onus on what change can you make to the guardian catapult that will make it better than a 1 shot and die weapon.

So to address Wooly first about DAs usefulness over the years. In 2nd ed there was a clear division between Guardians and Dire Avengers, that being Guardians wielded lasguns and DAs wielded ShurikenCats. There was a distinct division of quality. In 3rd ed guardians got ShurikenCats. And for 8 years nobody used Dire Avengers. The difference in points was too great not to notice, besides the fact that Guardians got the warlock cover save and a HWP. Frankly the fact that a DA could hit on a 3+ rather than a 4+ didn't matter for beans, neither did the fact that the DA's armor was better, or the Leadership, or the Initiative. That's the way it was for 8 years. People took DA for MECH slots and DAVU, but like I said you just never saw DAs.

Now in 4th ed the whole reason that DA's were back in the game was the 18" range on the DA ShurikenCat and BladeStorm. They were more tactically useful and they got picked up over guardians. It was like night and day. You give guardians the 18 also without upping the DA's game...then you have made the DAs useless again. Because for the record it won't be the (BS) or the (Ld), or the (I) that people want to choose DAs for, it was the difference in weapon (DA ShurikenCat) and the rate of fire (BladeStorm). Because honestly people don't deck the Exarch out with the power weapon and Shimmershield, or the Diresword, people choose DAs because they're shooty. Eldar are a specialized army, we've got people for assault; HBs and SSs, we don't need DAs for assault.

So that's the reason DAs are going to suck again. You want to make them better, don't up the STR on their DA ShurikenCat. As DAaddict says it just craps all over the Tau. My advice make them Assault 3, same 18 range. Splinter Carbine to Splinter Rifle if you need a comparison.

So now onto the Guardian Squad size. I've made plenty of vaild points in my previous posts; they're solid and I stand by them. First I'm going to address Wooly's and Gorechilds hard 10 man cap with all the upgrades. Simply put do you not acknowledge that a MECH'd out 10 man squad with two heavy weaponsj and 1/2 special weapons that can disembark and fire on the same turn is HORRIBLY OVERPOWERED? Do you acknowledge it, yes or no? Because RAW heavy weapons don't take up space on a transport and no other army can MECH like that. Your proposed Guardian MECH is just too OP and that's why I have a problem with it. That's the whole reason I said 5 and 15 on the HWPs. I like everything else you've proposed.

Now I'm going to move onto 20 max squad size. And I'll preface this by saying I'd even accept 15 as a max although I think 20 is spot on. First having 20 as a max in no way prevents people from MECHing at 10 or using less than 20 to suit their personal tastes. Now I'm going to pull the age card for a moment, I realize that it doesn't alter the strength of my arguements. I've owned and played eldar since RT and thru all three of their codices. Guardians have always had a squad size bigger than the aspect warriors; in 2Ed it was 10 vs 7, in 3Ed and 4Ed it was 20 vs 10. The reason is that the Eldar community brings citiizens to the battlefield. It the only army in 40k that does so. Every eldar trains for war, that's why the artisans who don't take up aspects have a stat line like Imperial Guard. And then we have the warriors who have stat lines closer to Marines. But in every society there are more citizens than warriors, citizens and warriors are no where equal in numbers. That is why since the conception of Codices in 40k guardians have always had a bigger squad size than aspects. You say "but they're a dieing race, we don't want to kill our guardians!! 10 man squads!" I answer with yes, they are a dieing race, that's why you see citizens with a lower statline, who are unspecialized, protected by a member from the seer path. They have to take up arms too. That is the fluff backing the mechanics of the game since the conception of the Eldar as a 40K army. No need to change it now, it's embedded. And in no way does it prevent you from taking less than 20 (or 15) using them how you will.

Please see my previous posts for my contributions on the guardian entry as they concern mechanics. I stand by them.

-MightyG

Point accepted. I can see your reasoning.
Alternatively: Just rule that 2 HWPs/1 SW = no transport? Too bulky. But yeah, I see your point.

<sigh> Alright I will try my old suggestion on an "improvement" of the Guardian Defender emphasis on Defender.

Make their shuricats Rapid Fire 18". This leaves them with an improved range if they don't move and still gives them that lethal 2 shot punch if the target gets within 12". What are they giving up? Well the ability to fire and assault.
If you are going to point out that rapid fire sucks... really? Are you telling me you plan on assaulting with guardians?

Rapid fire shuricats is a big improvement for all the vehicles and while so-so for guardians I will point out that the title says it all DEFENDERS. So while 20 guardians can match the firepower of dire avengers they can't move and match.

The real beauty of this is that it leaves the Dire Avenger catapult alone and still leaves Dire Avengers a role while the ability to take 4 platforms in a 20-man guardian squad gives me reason to take it also. So @150 for DA putting out 20(30) S4 shots at BS4 or defenders putting out 16 S6 shots to 36" range and 20 S4 shots at 18" or 40 at 12" range for about the same price range. ( Assuming zero cost shurcannons and slightly less cost for scatter lasers.)

*scans through dex*
Aah, I missed something out. I was reading through your post thinking to myself "but we werent going to let you put them in transports", It looks like I completely forgot to out the description in though
You're right, as its worded, its OP.

We were discussing the idea that you'd not be able to take a transport if you had a heavy weapons platform (this was back when we were discussing Storm Guardians).

An option could be to simply remove Guardians option to have a dedicated transport? That would lead to DA's being the troops for stealing enemy objectives, whilst the guardians sit back and defend. Either that or just state that the HWP's take up 2 transport capacity each, this would makeit ipossible for a full unit (10 guardians + Warock) to get in a transport with their weapons.

There is nothing wrong with DAs having S5 weapons. It doesn't "crap all over tau" because 1) tau are getting a re-write, and 2) they have a plethora of other ranged weapon systems which suffice to establish their superiority over the eldar in ranged combat.

Furthermore, the idea that a 10-man unit of guardians with 2 fusion guns and ... 2x EML hopping out of a wave serpent and shooting at something is "overpowered" is pretty absurd. At that point you're talking about 300 points of investment to get 4 bs 3 shots with heavy weapons. If you're attacking a MEQ squad, your heavy weapons will fry two marines, and you'll get whatever you do out of your shuricats. For 300 points. If you're attacking a tank, you get exactly what you get now, with 2 extra heavy weapon platforms. At BS3.

Do you know why its a terrible idea to take a guardian storm unit with 2 fusion guns as a poor-man's FD squad? You can do this, and it sucks. It sucks because it can't hit the broadside of a barn and it is overpriced. The only configuration that is worth it is the 2-flamer+destructor lock squad. No one complains about that, because it isn't broken. Its barely effective.

It isn't overpowered, its an improvement.

It shouldn't be allowed anyway. The current way the codex deals with embarkation and HWPs is stupid and janky. It should be very simple - HWP=no emarkation. However, if it were allowed, it wouldn't be overpowered.

Rapid Fire shuricats is a giant middle finger to guardians. It really is. They suffer this entire edition with weapons which completely suck, and for their "upgrade" they go from 12" assault 2 to 18" rapidfire. Do you all operate under some sort of xenos/eldar inferiority complex? Forcing guardians to close to that close of range isn't going to fix them. They will remain broken.

Guardians are really, really simple.
The Guardian Shuriken Catapult: S3 AP5 R24 Assault2
1 HWP or Special Weapon (fusion gun/flamer/power weapon) per 5, at cost
may exchange shuriken catapults for close combat weapon and shuriken pistols for free
max 10.
May take wave serpent as DT
a unit with a HWP may not embark on a transport.

No horde, they provide fire support, but need Doom to ever be anything close to "effective" (as they should). And the best thing is that, just like the Avenger Shuricat, their weapon is a different weapon from the stock Shuriken Catapult, so their change doesn't cross over to affect GJB, SS, vehicles, vypers, etc.

@ Guardians and Dire Avengers.
The big break for Dire Avengers weren't that they got +6" range, really. How often do you really use that range? The big difference was that Dire Avengers got proper Exarch power in Bladestorm, but more importantly that the meta game changed.
Going from 3rd to 4th edition there are two units that hasn't changed one iota in the Eldar codex - Fire Dragons (-1 ppm) and Wave Serpent (lost free Shurican). These are, currently in 5th edition with all the price discounts flung around like proverbial faeces from a monkey's hand, suddenly the two best units in the Eldar army. Fire Dragons were the red-headed step child in 3rd edition, I should add.
(Small anecdote: 3rd edition Fire Dragon exarch power "Burning Fist" - power weapon + re-roll to wound)

With Bladestorm remaining with the Dire Avengers, they will still keep their +60% shock troop kill performance, so their mechanization superiority will not change.
I do believe that something that's been lost is the long list of suggestions. Along with the suggestion for 5-10 Guardians with 2-3 heavy weapons in that squad size (yes, 1 HWP per 3 Guardians was suggested) was also the suggestion that HWPs should prevent you from taking a transport. In the end, the thing that was unanimously agreed on result was that SWP would prevent mechanization (regardless of which squad the weapons end up in), which I think the end-document lost.

However, I wish to bring up that the issue is not all between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers, but also with Guardian Jetbikes, and all the vehicle under-slung choices. As it stand, even offering Shuriken Catapults for the Wraithlord is making a noob-alarm, I should add.
Guardian Jetbikes are currently brilliant for tactical manoeuvres and last-turn contest/claim, however, their performance in everything combat-related is lacking. Jetbike lists simply win through tactical brilliance and Warlock death stars. One could be so evil as to say that a player who win often with an Eldar Jetbike list will be expected to massacre opposition with a Dark Eldar Jetbike list which can, in addition, also kill stuff.

In either case, I am restating a lot of things that Gwydion's already wrote, I see. The most ideal way to deal with it would be to give the Guardians a weapon called the Star Rifle <R24" S4 Ap3 Assault 1>; and let the Dire Avengers be the Troop choice dedicated to dealing with Hordes. Then you can have one, single, Shuriken Catapult with the Dire Avenger stats that doesn't interfere with the Guardians and can actually be worth a damned as a defensive weapon. As in, it can actually reach what you want to shoot at.

I'd still like to keep the CW: Eldar model count low, regardless of build. By the way, with the basic weapon of that calibre, the Guardians could be just like Space Marines - take 10 and only then you get a free Shuriken Catapult.
This means that they'd be just about the only unit that actually encourages maxing their numbers.

P.S. I don't care about what an Eldar list does to a Tau army in terms of comparative armaments. Eldar are still meant to be technologically superior, arrogant like the sun rise to do their bidding (which it bloody well does), and over all quite shooty themselves (although at closer range). It's the Tau army's problem that their infantry weapons don't suit their army very well.

P.P.S. In 2nd editions, the Shuriken Catapult was bloody dangerous, deadlier than a Bolter, for example.

@Guardians

Gwydion said:

The Guardian Shuriken Catapult: S3 AP5 R24 Assault2
1 HWP or Special Weapon (fusion gun/flamer/power weapon) per 5, at cost
may exchange shuriken catapults for close combat weapon and shuriken pistols for free
max 10.
May take wave serpent as DT
a unit with a HWP may not embark on a transport.

I like the thought of comparing the range for the Dire Avenger and Guardian catapults and then simply reducing the strength on the guardian version. Keeps a difference between the two, but makes the weapons similar and allows the guardians to shoot twice and maybe even three times if they are lucky. I think that would increase their ability to survive quite a bit. AP 5 makes sense, the suggestion I just saw to make it AP 3 seems over powered. You would have a base squad that was marine killers.

An additional thought I had fluff wise. There are Eldar citizens who were aspect warriors, but then returned to life away from war. However they too would be drawn up for necessary combat, and likely sooner since they would have better training. Ex HB and SS would likely become storm guardians and Ex DA would make great guardians. Could there be a veteran status, whether as a troop leader, veteran squad that could be created out of that? Or am I just trying to interject a whole extra can of worms.

probably too much of a can of worms - though it could be possible to introduce Black Guardians ... but honestly, we have problems with Guardians almost stepping on DA's toes ... Black Guardians are better than regular guardians, but not as good as DAs..... thats a mess.

Also, my understanding is that eldar aspect warriors enter a trance-like ritualistic mental state, to insulate their psyche from war. I wouldn't think the skills and abilities available to them in that sort of state would be retained in civilian life.

@ The whole issue of stepping on Tau's foot.

I agree that Eldar, being what they are, should have access to some of, if not the most advanced technology in the game. Sure they might end up with weapons that seem to pwn the shooty army of Tau, but then you could just emphasise on Eldar having a low model count and let Tau have more models.

Lol at the strength 5 avenger catapults. Highly doubt thats happening.

Dire avengers are already one of the best shooting infantry choices point for point as it is.

Strength 5 avenger catapults = 15 points per dire avenger. You can have that for nigh marine cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually dire avengers should have strength 3 guns because they are fillthy xenos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the runes of nullification is a joke. Why would you have runes of warding and a copy of a psychic hood with unlimited range.

My guess is in the balance of things they will likely just keep RoW and reduce it to 24inches.

Eldar players should be quite content with the runes of warding buff from 3rd to 4th edition.

No! We are not satisfied with having the best psychic defence in the game! *Frownie face*
Well, I can see you point. I do, however, agree with Gorechild that the psychic supremacy of the Eldar should be shown, although without walking into Matt Ward territory.

Wooly wrote:No! We are not satisfied with having the best psychic defence in the game! *Frownie face*
Well, I can see you point. I do, however, agree with Gorechild that the psychic supremacy of the Eldar should be shown, although without walking into Matt Ward territory.

This could be shown in two ways - discounted farseers. To follow the trend - say 100 pts for a fully outfited farseer, +50 for the ability to cast 2 spells. ANY spells.

Some passive spells available - Perhaps some point cost abilities that are passive.
1. An option to fake out the enemy and delay a reinforcement.
2. Ala eldrad, the ability to see into the future and move D3 units post-deployment but pre-game.
3. An option to steal the initiative with a +1.
4. An option to force one opposing unit into reserve.

Spells that should basically be enhancers rather than direct damage.

1. Guide as is
2. Fortune as is
3. Eyes of the hawk 12" are grant one unit +1 BS
4. Lion claws 12" grant one unit +1 A or reroll to hit.
5. Mindwar no cover saves - please.
6. Doom as is
7. Eldritch storm - this needs to be boosted somehow. Perhaps an auto-glance on any vehicle touched and maybe a T save or take one wound for anything under it rather than a strength/wound/save situation. Perhaps make the next movement as if through dangerous terrain.

I think the passive options all sound like excellent ideas for an Autarch. A Farseer is enough of a griefer with his psychic powers in game (and griefing is good).

If you wish to show Eldar psychic powers, then you need to make them more common - and currently Warlocks just don't give you the proper sense for it.

---

I've only just begun reading Way of the Warrior, but the technology described just isn't done justice in game. I recognise a lot of the ideas from high-sci/fi works of Alastair Reynolds or Neal Asher, mostly in the intelligent clothing, but also in the potential of the holo-fields.

@ Farseer

For an eldritch storm amendment, perhaps units affected by the eldritch storm must spend the next turn getting to their feet and re-establishing unit coherency. Meaning they can't shoot, assault, move very far, if used repeatedly it all but takes a unit out of the game. It is supposed to be a crazy storm that throws people around so it would make sense that even marines and such would have to take a moment to get themselves set to rights and ready to fight. I think that would also turn it into a valid offensive weapon. Hah, your deep striking terminators are now being thrown around like rag dolls, and I can shoot them to pieces at my leisure. Probably wouldn't need a strength increase in that case either, the goal not necessarily killing off mass units, but effectively removing them from the opponents control.

Mahtamori wrote:I think the passive options all sound like excellent ideas for an Autarch. A Farseer is enough of a griefer with his psychic powers in game (and griefing is good).

If you wish to show Eldar psychic powers, then you need to make them more common - and currently Warlocks just don't give you the proper sense for it.

---

I've only just begun reading Way of the Warrior, but the technology described just isn't done justice in game. I recognise a lot of the ideas from high-sci/fi works of Alastair Reynolds or Neal Asher, mostly in the intelligent clothing, but also in the potential of the holo-fields.

That makes me remember. In 2nd ed Warlocks were the ones casting Guide, Farseer only had Doom.

-MightyG

Mahtamori wrote:I think the passive options all sound like excellent ideas for an Autarch. A Farseer is enough of a griefer with his psychic powers in game (and griefing is good).

If you wish to show Eldar psychic powers, then you need to make them more common - and currently Warlocks just don't give you the proper sense for it.

---

I've only just begun reading Way of the Warrior, but the technology described just isn't done justice in game. I recognise a lot of the ideas from high-sci/fi works of Alastair Reynolds or Neal Asher, mostly in the intelligent clothing, but also in the potential of the holo-fields.

Old idea:

Farseers: 2 active and one passive ability Ld 10 Auto: Stones, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing

Warlock Leaders: 1 active and one passive ability Ld 9

Warlock Retinue: 1 Passive ability

Warlock leaders are those that are squad leaders. Retinue warlocks are only part of councils except perhaps the Ulthuwe coucil.

Either you need to come up with separate active powers for Farseers and Warlock Leaders or just allow the Warlock Leaders to chose 1 active power.

Active:
1. Doom
2. Guide
3. Preferred Enemy or +1 WS
4 +1 BS
5. Mind War (no cover)
6. Eldritch Storm ( I like the idea of effecting enemy movement.)

Passive:
1. Destructor
2. Enhance
3. Embolden
4. Conceal
5. Extend +6" Range on all spells
6. Provide Night Vision


Also a vehicle add-on that allows psychic sight - the farseer or any vehicle can see a target based on the sight of any other farseer or vehicle with the add-on can see as far as night vision or targeting indirect fire weapons.

I don't know how firmly rooted the idea of a Warlock leading Guardians are, but if a Warlock goes all apothecary (1-3 Elite slot) then LD10 and proper psychic powers are warranted.
At which point the difference between a Farseer's psychic powers and a Warlock's psychic powers need to be defined. One should have a distinct feel from the other. It's OK if one is left without a psychic attack or vice versa

So far, this I've learned regarding Eldar Warfare from Aspect Warrior (and do note that this is stuff from Alaitoc, and NOT from Biel-Tan):
1. Rangers are very commonly used as guides to accompany warhosts.
2. Aspect Warriors form the back-bone of the army.
3. Guardians are only used in large scale conflicts.
4. Warmachines are only used in large scale conflicts.
5. Aspect Warriors are always, without fail, lead by their Exarchs. Exarchs form the basis of a shrine, and there can be several shrines of the same aspect.
6. Eldar armies deploy from space, although their warships do not need to be in very close proximity, and deploy through the Webway.
7. All Eldar aspect warriors tend to be stealthy, while Scorpions are hidden.
8. Webways can be used to deploy forces directly onto the battlefield, and no gate is necessary.
9. An Avatar's Wailing Doom is an excellent anti-infantry weapon and is described more as a multi-shot singing spear than a melta-gun.

So from this essence, we have the following blatant errors with the current codex when it comes to fluff-rules relationship:
1. Aspect Warriors have Exarch as optional.
2. Guardians are troop choice.
3. Craftworld Eldar can not use webway directly onto the battlefield.

Now, I'm still only about half-way into the book, and there are probably other sources of fluff, but so far the book does not disappoint as far as fluff goes - even surprisingly good for a game-novel.

As far as the novel goes, it depicts Shining Spears assaulting directly out of the gateway, and several such gateways being used to deploy multiple squads (while initial deployment had squads get their own gateway). This leads to an alternate way of seeing it, and that is that you purchase a gateway opening (or if you like to see it like that - a Wayseer). The Eldar army then have the following deployment options: On the board, in reserve, in deep strike, in outflanking, or in the webway.
Webways would then be rolled for reinforcements rather than the units inside them, and all units in the webway that's deployed would then exit through the portal (which would likely close directly afterwards, given their temporary nature).

TL-DR:
When a Webway is purchased, you can deploy units into it as if a transport during deployment. When the transport is deployed, the opening is placed (deep strike?). Units leave the webway as if from stationary transport.

Fun side-note: that raised section on top of Eldar shuriken weapons is an optical scope which feeds vision straight into the helmet - the gun's point of view - with an FOF system.

[WARNING---SPAM POST] GO ELDAR!!!

Version two added to 1st post!
I've tried to catch up with everything in the week I've been away but let me know if anything has been missed.

Most of the changed are simply tidying up errors and adding clarifications from V1.

Let me know what you think!

Hm - Something about the wraith special rule along with spiritseers - I'd rather say that having a warlock/any psyker in the unit allows you to reroll the wraithtest, while a spiritseer makes you not having to roll at all.

By the way: Didn't Gorechild want us to talk about HQs?

Heya Gore,

Good ideas in this... I enjoyed the Iyanna Arienal entry got me all excited! Ironically I just got done writing a post on the dear old Wraithguard for rules I wished changed but you might take a gander at the idea... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/375797.page I do like what you came up with for Wraithguard. The Wraith rule is interest but it might be kind of not so fun rolling against both Wraithsight and Wraith. Though, I didn't see Wraithsight in your entry so maybe I'm a bit confused on that but from most of the read I gathered you were only writing about changes. I do like the immunity to poison considering the Faye Cousin(Duke).
When reading over your Swooping Hawks I have to wonder if you compared them to Scourge & Jetfighter considering the use of Haywire Blaster & Aerial Assault in the write up I thought it was pretty interesting. Master Strategist rule choice's are nice. There are some things I didn't like though... Change on Sky Leap, your change is definitely good though.

-Sincerely Viri

Wooly wrote:By the way: Didn't Gorechild want us to talk about HQs?

I was having a thinkI've got a couple of ideas about a Biel Tan SC that I came up with whilst I was on holiday (being made to sit by a pool for hours by the GF gave me plenty of thinking time ). As much as I liked the court of the young king idea I couldnt think of a way to impement it and come out with a decent unit, just mashing a load of exarchs into a squad would make the unit aimless, as the roles of the different aspects would conflict with one another.

In the mock up of version 3 I've added in the existing pheonix lords (upgrade 1 exarch to PL, only 1 PL per army) this would basically give you a 3rd HQ that isn't an IC.

I was thinking of making the Biel Tan guy an Autarch, give him some awesome CC wargear, another stratagem and remove the limit on taking just 1 PL. This would let you have a scoring unit of FD's, Scorps, banshees, hawks and reapers. Then you can just come up with some fluff to tie it all together and you'd be able to get a fairly fluffy biel tan army (the character, an Avatar, loads of DA's, and 5 scoring aspect warriror units).

Viridian wrote:Heya Gore,

Good ideas in this... I enjoyed the Iyanna Arienal entry got me all excited! Ironically I just got done writing a post on the dear old Wraithguard for rules I wished changed but you might take a gander at the idea... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/375797.page I do like what you came up with for Wraithguard. The Wraith rule is interest but it might be kind of not so fun rolling against both Wraithsight and Wraith. Though, I didn't see Wraithsight in your entry so maybe I'm a bit confused on that but from most of the read I gathered you were only writing about changes. I do like the immunity to poison considering the Faye Cousin(Duke).
When reading over your Swooping Hawks I have to wonder if you compared them to Scourge & Jetfighter considering the use of Haywire Blaster & Aerial Assault in the write up I thought it was pretty interesting. Master Strategist rule choice's are nice. There are some things I didn't like though... Change on Sky Leap, your change is definitely good though.

-Sincerely Viri

I didn't intend to have wraithsight as well as the test that is part of the wraith rule (that was meant to be rolling wraith sight into the same rule). I think eventually I'll just have to do the complete entry for each unit to stop this sort of confusion coming up. Glad you liked Iyanna though

Gorechild wrote:

Wooly wrote:By the way: Didn't Gorechild want us to talk about HQs?

I was having a thinkI've got a couple of ideas about a Biel Tan SC that I came up with whilst I was on holiday (being made to sit by a pool for hours by the GF gave me plenty of thinking time ). As much as I liked the court of the young king idea I couldnt think of a way to impement it and come out with a decent unit, just mashing a load of exarchs into a squad would make the unit aimless, as the roles of the different aspects would conflict with one another.

In the mock up of version 3 I've added in the existing pheonix lords (upgrade 1 exarch to PL, only 1 PL per army) this would basically give you a 3rd HQ that isn't an IC.

I was thinking of making the Biel Tan guy an Autarch, give him some awesome CC wargear, another stratagem and remove the limit on taking just 1 PL. This would let you have a scoring unit of FD's, Scorps, banshees, hawks and reapers. Then you can just come up with some fluff to tie it all together and you'd be able to get a fairly fluffy biel tan army (the character, an Avatar, loads of DA's, and 5 scoring aspect warriror units).

First of all: YOU HAVE A GIRLFRIEND?! **Lacks scared Orkmoticon - sadface*
Jokes aside: Your idea sounds pretty neat. But while we are on the subject: Could we talk about some unique wargear for the Autarchs? Perhaps the Biel-Tan SC would have a stronger version of the wargear available to the Autarch? One piece of Wargear that we might as well make an option, would be a witchblade or a Singing Spear (I mean, Yriel has got one that ignores armour saves). It's an efficient way to get past the whole S3 issue, while not ignoring armour saves. Another thing that would be a neat piece of Autarch wargear would be an energy-field covering all of the Autarch's unit, granting it a 5+ invulnerable save, like a better version of the Shimmershield.

Believe witchblades and singing spears are a sort of force weapons and can only be used by psykers (yriel's spear isn't fluff-wise a singing spear, really). But I do agree that they should gain access to more weaponry. Perhaps a powered scorpion chainsword.

Another idea of a weapon I had in mind, is a shuriken pistol that fires powered shuriken. Just like a shuriken pistol, but AP 2. Pretty interesting, no?

A third kind of helmet would be nice too. Perhaps it has some kind of psychic (or something like that) stare, which makes enemy models WS 1 and/or sinks their Ld?

Wooly wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Wooly wrote:By the way: Didn't Gorechild want us to talk about HQs?

I was having a thinkI've got a couple of ideas about a Biel Tan SC that I came up with whilst I was on holiday (being made to sit by a pool for hours by the GF gave me plenty of thinking time ). As much as I liked the court of the young king idea I couldnt think of a way to impement it and come out with a decent unit, just mashing a load of exarchs into a squad would make the unit aimless, as the roles of the different aspects would conflict with one another.

In the mock up of version 3 I've added in the existing pheonix lords (upgrade 1 exarch to PL, only 1 PL per army) this would basically give you a 3rd HQ that isn't an IC.

I was thinking of making the Biel Tan guy an Autarch, give him some awesome CC wargear, another stratagem and remove the limit on taking just 1 PL. This would let you have a scoring unit of FD's, Scorps, banshees, hawks and reapers. Then you can just come up with some fluff to tie it all together and you'd be able to get a fairly fluffy biel tan army (the character, an Avatar, loads of DA's, and 5 scoring aspect warriror units).

First of all: YOU HAVE A GIRLFRIEND?! **Lacks scared Orkmoticon - sadface*
Jokes aside: Your idea sounds pretty neat. But while we are on the subject: Could we talk about some unique wargear for the Autarchs? Perhaps the Biel-Tan SC would have a stronger version of the wargear available to the Autarch? One piece of Wargear that we might as well make an option, would be a witchblade or a Singing Spear (I mean, Yriel has got one that ignores armour saves). It's an efficient way to get past the whole S3 issue, while not ignoring armour saves. Another thing that would be a neat piece of Autarch wargear would be an energy-field covering all of the Autarch's unit, granting it a 5+ invulnerable save, like a better version of the Shimmershield.

Yes That's why its taken me all these months to type this thread up into a PDF and why I after all this time still don't have a fully painted army

I don't think a witchblade would be appropriate, its a psyker piece of wargear, there's no reason we couldn't think of something similar though. I don't think Exarch wargear is the way to go either, they are meant to be ritualistic pieces of equipment that belong to each shrine, they wouldn't lend it out to randomers that would only have ever been a basic aspect warrior for a couple of the aspects.

I think it would be a nice way to add in some new highly sophisticated eldar tech, they are supposed to be the most advanced race technologically, but all we really get to see are power weapons and fusion guns. Maybe swords that are so sleek that they give an initiative bonus (+2 or 3), a pistol sized version of the D- cannon, helms that allow you to fire as normal during night fighting, holo-fields that create dupicate illusions of the character like the DE clone field. Things like that Any other suggestions would be ace.

Any other suggestions would be ace.

Look above your post and you'll see some.

Saintspirit wrote:

Any other suggestions would be ace.

Look above your post and you'll see some.

I didn't realise how long it took me to write that post! I completely missed your reply.

I like the shuriken pistol idea, building off and upgrading existing stuff seems to make a lot of sense. I don't know about the psychic helmet though, I'd leave the psychic powers to the farseers. I'm probably being an idiot, but if you want to add a third helmet, what is the second one? I can only think of the mandiblaster.

They've also or the Banshee mask. I don't think a witchblade would be too terrible, I mean all Eldar are psychic and would have the capability to use it, Farseers and Warlocks are just actively pursuing that at the moment.

How about an upgrade to any farseer to his witchblade or spear to also make it a power weapon. This is far from unbalanced as we are talking at most 2 in an army and these are both A1 on their statlines so we are talking at most 6 Wound on 2+ with nothing but invlunerable save attacks in a whole army.

Or maybe giving them the possibility to upgrade/replace their witchblade to an actual force weapon? That'd give them powered attacks, along with a psychic touch.

@Gorechild, Yes, as Mandaloryn said the second is the banshee mask. But considering that the mandiblaster is psychically activated, why not this one.

I like the shuriken pistol idea,

Yay

Autarch – xxx points
Stats: As now

Unit Type: Independent character, Infantry.

Special Rules: Fleet, Master Strategist

Wargear: Power Weapon, Shuriken Pistol, Force Shield.

Options: The Autarch may take a Warp Jump Generator for xx points (changes unit type to Jump Infantry), Hawk Wings (changes unit type to Jump Infantry) or a Jet bike (changes unit type to Jet bike).
The Autarch may replace his shuriken pistol with a fusion pistol for xx points, a pyre-shuriken pistol for xx points or D-pistol for xx points
His power weapon may be replaced by a zephyr blade for xx points or staff of Isha for xx points
The Autarch may choose to replace both its shuriken pistol and power weapon with an Eldanesh blade for xx points or a Spear of Khaine for xx points
If mounted on an Eldar Jet bike the Autarch may replace both their Pistol and Power weapon with a Laser Lance for xx points.
The Autarch may take one of the following: Banshee mask for xx points, mandiblaster for xx points, tracker helm for xx points or holo projector for xx points

pyre-shuriken pistol - range 12" S4 AP2 Pistol
D-Pistol - as wraith guard but with 6" range
Zephyr blade - single handed power weapon that gives +2 initiative
Staff of Isha - single handed close combat weapon, each wound inflicted restores 1 wound to the autarch.
Blade of Eldanesh - two handed power weapon, provides +2 Weapon skill
Spear of Khaine - two handed power weapon, provides +1 strength and causes instant death, can be thrown with the following profile R12" S8 AP2
Tracker helm - A model with a tracker helm ignores the shooting restrictions caused by night fighting, it also helps detect enemies movements at close quarters to assist the wearer in dodging enemies attacks, it privides a 6+ invulnerable save in close combat, any unit that already has an invulnerable save has their save improved by 1.
Holo-projector- A holo projector allows the autarch to project another image of themselves in the mind of their foes. All models in base contact with the Autarch have their weapon skill reduced by 2 as they attempt to parry and dodge the attacks of a person that is not even there.

Thats just a load of suggestions that I came up with off the top of my head. Any additions, changes or "that idea is stupid"'s would be awesome

Me likey, me likey a lot. A few notes though:

pyre-shuriken pistol - range 12" S4 AP2 Pistol
D-Pistol - as wraith guard but with 6" range
Zephyr blade - single handed power weapon that gives +2 initiative
Staff of Isha - single handed close combat weapon, each wound inflicted restores 1 wound to the autarch.

All looks like nice ideas

Spear of Khaine - two handed power weapon, provides +1 strength and causes instant death, can be thrown with the following profile: R12" S8 AP2[/b]

Must cost a lot, this one? It's better than a huskblade, I mean. Also, if that has that name then Iyannas spear should get back its old name (spear of teuthlas). Oh wait, you named it spear of vaul, not khaine... Well, still!

Tracker helm - A model with a tracker helm ignores the shooting restrictions caused by night fighting, it also helps detect enemies movements at close quarters to assist the wearer in dodging enemies attacks, it privides a 6+ invulnerable save in close combat, any unit that already has an invulnerable save has their save improved by 1.

No need to give a 6+ invo save as autarches have force shields, otherwise good.

Holo-projector- A holo projector allows the autarch to project another image of themselves in the mind of their foes. All models in base contact with the Autarch have their weapon skill reduced by 2 as they attempt to parry and dodge the attacks of a person that is not even there.

Cool.

Exarch weapons are the chosen weapons of each exarch, and the shrines belong to the exarchs. Need to remember that the Craftworld Eldar do not dabble in geneseeds or genetics at all, but their understanding and manipulation of the soul leaves all others behind. Exarchs are immortal spirits, amalgamations of several aspect warriors whom were lost on the path and successively picked up the call from an exarch without a body. Side-track: In fact, their poor profile is quite laughable when you consider the fluff. Aspect warriors themselves is just about right, equal to a full fledged Space Marine but without the genetic manipulations to make the body stronger nor the exo-skeleton supporting them, but the exarchs we play with only shadow the power of a new-born exarch with an untried soul. If Path of the Warrior is to be held as any sort of canon, then a moderately competent exarch is in the same league as a space marine captain (again, with the captain's genetics giving them the edge).

In either case, what I'm getting at is that while autarchs do not get the ritual gear of the exarchs, they still merit the very best gear the craftworld has to offer - not at all inconceivable that it's in fact better than what the exarchs tote around.

And then there's the case of the whole cycle of rebirth that the exarchs and phoenix lords deal with. I was thinking something along the lines of that if a phoenix lord dies, one can sacrifice an exarch of the corresponding path to revive him/her.

That's all fluff theory, though. In a general sense, I'd love to see CE arsenal and toys expanded with more gravitational and holographic items.

Love the thought that Eldar could get a real wargear section rather than fluff on the heavy weapons. I always tend to feel sad when I look through other codex's armouries.

To exspand on this perhaps Exarchs, Farseers, and Warlocks should also get greater options in the armoury, that way Eldar squad leaders can be very customizable

(Side note: speaking of squad leaders, Rangers should have pathfinder abilities base and be led by an exarchlike pathfinder with other gear and abilities)

I think a lot of the proposed Autarch wargear is pretty redundant. With I6 and WS6, there probably aren't too many instances where you'd really feel the need to increase those. The part of the tracker helm that let's him ignore night fighting is also pretty useless seeing as how his highest ranged gun is 12 inches. Unfortunately I don't really have any suggestions to make this post more constructive, but there you go.

MandalorynOranj wrote:I think a lot of the proposed Autarch wargear is pretty redundant. With I6 and WS6, there probably aren't too many instances where you'd really feel the need to increase those. The part of the tracker helm that let's him ignore night fighting is also pretty useless seeing as how his highest ranged gun is 12 inches.

It is? I assumed that the autarch could also take any of the wargear already available to him?

Saintspirit wrote:Me likey, me likey a lot. A few notes though:

pyre-shuriken pistol - range 12" S4 AP2 Pistol
D-Pistol - as wraith guard but with 6" range
Zephyr blade - single handed power weapon that gives +2 initiative
Staff of Isha - single handed close combat weapon, each wound inflicted restores 1 wound to the autarch.

All looks like nice ideas

Spear of Khaine - two handed power weapon, provides +1 strength and causes instant death, It can be thrown with the following profile: R12" S8 AP2. The Spear of Khaine does not inflict instant death when used as a ranged weapon

Must cost a lot, this one? It's better than a huskblade, I mean. Also, if that has that name then Iyannas spear should get back its old name (spear of teuthlas). Oh wait, you named it spear of vaul, not khaine... Well, still!

I've just changed the name of Iyanna's spear and added a bit in here for clarification. Its not that much better than a huskblade due to being two handed, and you don't have the soul trap option that the DE husk blade really depends on. It would be more expensive, but compaired to buying a single handed weapon and a gun, it won't seem too crazy I hope. I'm always open to changing it if people dont think its right though

Saintspirit wrote:

Tracker helm - A model with a tracker helm ignores the shooting restrictions caused by night fighting, it also helps detect enemies movements at close quarters to assist the wearer in dodging enemies attacks, it privides a 6+ invulnerable save in close combat, any unit that already has an invulnerable save has their save improved by 1.

No need to give a 6+ invo save as autarches have force shields, otherwise good.

Holo-projector- A holo projector allows the autarch to project another image of themselves in the mind of their foes. All models in base contact with the Autarch have their weapon skill reduced by 2 as they attempt to parry and dodge the attacks of a person that is not even there.

Cool.

Notice the bit in green? I've edited it in the mock up for the next version so the force shield goes back to a 4++, the tracker helm would then improve it to a 3++.

Oriallis wrote:Love the thought that Eldar could get a real wargear section rather than fluff on the heavy weapons. I always tend to feel sad when I look through other codex's armouries.

To exspand on this perhaps Exarchs, Farseers, and Warlocks should also get greater options in the armoury, that way Eldar squad leaders can be very customizable

I bought a few Haemonculi about 2 weeks ago and have been having great fun with the wealth of fancy wargear options that have available, thats what really made me think about how mundane the Eldar options are. I also like the fluff of the Eldar gods so thought I'd find a way to incorporate them into the gear.

Saintspirit wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:I think a lot of the proposed Autarch wargear is pretty redundant. With I6 and WS6, there probably aren't too many instances where you'd really feel the need to increase those. The part of the tracker helm that let's him ignore night fighting is also pretty useless seeing as how his highest ranged gun is 12 inches.

It is? I assumed that the autarch could also take any of the wargear already available to him?

This is why I really need to include (ie copy out) most the old stuff into this dex. Saintspirit is right, you're still meant to have access to the old stuff. I tried to make that clear in the first page, but I guess its a bit confusing.

Autarches really do have the best kit available, what about if they had a special rule, let's call it Forge of Vaul, which stated all their equipment is master-crafted?

Gorechild wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:

Tracker helm - A model with a tracker helm ignores the shooting restrictions caused by night fighting, it also helps detect enemies movements at close quarters to assist the wearer in dodging enemies attacks, it privides a 6+ invulnerable save in close combat, any unit that already has an invulnerable save has their save improved by 1.

No need to give a 6+ invo save as autarches have force shields, otherwise good.

Notice the bit in green? I've edited it in the mock up for the next version so the force shield goes back to a 4++, the tracker helm would then improve it to a 3++.

I did indeed notice that, that is why I wrote Otherwise good.

How about giving the tracker helm's to the Dark Reapers as well? The whole anti-night fighting thing seems to fit them well.

Dark Reapers would benefit much more from the night fighting thing. Even if the autarch does still have all the old options, the only one that would benefit from ignoring night fighting is the reaper launcher which remains pointless to take on an assault-oriented character.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Dark Reapers would benefit much more from the night fighting thing. Even if the autarch does still have all the old options, the only one that would benefit from ignoring night fighting is the reaper launcher which remains pointless to take on an assault-oriented character.

There's no reason we couldn't add one or two other weapons with longer range if you have some suggestions? Autarchs are meant to be well rounded, so they should be able to hold their own whilst shooting as well.

Maybe give him some sort of sniper weapon, but make it assault so he can still move? I don't really know.

Right, I've made some changes to the Autarch. I won't repost it all now, it will be in V3 though.

I can't help but think the Avatar is a little boring, I'd much rather see him in the 175-200 point monster. as it stands he is like:

Fandex wrote:The Avatar of Khaine – xxx points

WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
10 6 6 6 6 4 4 10 3+

Unit Type: Monstrous Creature, Unique

Special Rules: Fleet, Daemon, Molten Body, Fearless, Inspiring

War gear: The Wailing Doom


Molten Body – Any “Melta” type or fire based weapons (Flamers, Heavy flamers, Scorcha, Flamestorm cannons ect) have no effect against the Avatar.

Inspiring - Any friendly unit within 12” of the Avatar gains the fearless special rule. Any unit that can draw line of sight to the Avatar has the stubborn USR, even if they are more than 12” away.

Daemon – The Avatar is a Daemon and is therefore affected by any weapons with special rules against Daemons. This also confers a 4+ invulnerable save and the Eternal Warrior special rule.

Wailing Doom – As now

There was a suggestion (can't remember by who, sorry ) to let the Avatar surround himself in fire, which I think could be an interesting addition. Maybe: When in close combat the Avatar may choose to bathe his surroundings in flame in lieu of making his normal attacks. Center a large blast marker over the Avatar when he is in close combat, all models (friend or foe) under the template are automatically hit. Resolve the with the following profile: S5 AP4.

This would make him decent against hordes (and amazing against other Eldar ), and just adds a little more flavour. thoughts? Any other suggestions? If a lot of people prefer him as a cheap(ish) HQ like now then I can leave him as is.

I like the bathing in flames, but don't you think that its weird that the mighty, incredibly powerful, space marine chapters sent solely to recover a fragment of it, Wailing doom should be a little more than a big close combat weapon duct taped to a meltagun? I don't know just a thought...

Make Wailing Doom +2 S. That means he is almost autowounding other MC. Add the flames concept and I like. The other thing would be to add a regen aspect. Say recovers wound on a roll of 6+. Molten man should be hard to drop unless he is puddled in one round.

I really like the idea of him spewing fire.
What if he could use the same ability to grant a cover save to those around him? Sure it might be lethal, but then again: Shouldn't the Eldar at least have an Avatar that cared enough to lead them all the way to the battle line, before letting them be killed. It might be voiced as something like the Avatar has to be in front of the unit or something like that to prevent screening an entire army with an Avatar in the back.
Just an idea.

Uh, fleet doesn't mean that. Fleet means they can assault in the turn they run...

Err... Who were that directed at?

Souleater15 wrote:Uh, fleet doesn't mean that. Fleet means they can assault in the turn they run...

Hence the "All the units in this fandex" part. If there are more specific rules in a codex then they over-rule the less specific rule from the main rule book.

Aha, now I understand what you meant, souleater.

An idea I have concerning exarches and how they should be more than just a sergeant - perhaps they should be a bit similar to nobz, i.e. have two wounds?

Oh, and by the way, you have forgotten to give fleet to banshees, scorpions, hoec, the seer council and warp spiders, and the harlequins haven't got their dance of death (which I assume they shoudl have?).

I don't think exarchs should be multi-wound. Being fragile is just a part of being an Eldar.
But shouldn't exarch wargear and exarch powers be enough to make them a decent more-than-a-sergeant-soldier? Alternatively the exarch could make his squad fearless as they are, I dunno, above 50% of original unit size (Say that as long as they're with an exarch, the Eldar's hearts harden and they save their mourning untill after the combat). Alternately you could just say an exarch makes his squad fearless, but I dunno if that's too OP

I like the phoenix lord rebirth special ability, I think that would almost make them worth it right there for their current points cost.

Speaking of sacrificing an exarch. How about this to make the avatar a bit more custom. So to wake him up they sacrifice the young king, well what if the avatar took on a bit of the persona of the young king.
Say it's a striking scorpion; The avatar gains one attack and stealth.
Swooping hawk; you could graft on big lord of change style wings and he becomes fast moving.
Howling banshee; increased initiative, say 8
Fire dragon; the ring of fire special ability that has been mentioned in previous posts.
Dire avenger; he becomes toughness 8
Warp spider; the 6" post assault move, if not in close combat.
Shining spear;...Can choose to break away from close combat
Dark reaper;...wailing doom becomes a 24" blast weapon?

Probably just too much caffeine this morning, but neat thoughts.

@ Wooly: No, exarchs are definitely not multi-wound, they die quite a lot. What about simply stubborn or re-roll morale? The aspect warriors' war mask helps a lot with morale in general, but the experience and guidance of the exarch is what keeps them together and keeps the war mask from slipping from the less... violent... individuals.

@ seaphoenix: Glad you like the idea I blatantly stole from Gav Thorpe's fluff
Well, if we want to stick somewhat close to fluff, then the exarch is to the avatar what caffeine is to us. Doesn't matter what taste it is, all it'll do is boost our energy and wake us up, we're still the same person.
Case in point, though, the Avatar holds to a rather outdated type of warfare, one that neither the Eldar nor their gods ever really subscribed to. In fact, the Wailing Doom isn't depicted like a meltagun at all, so there's still some merit to what you write.
Then again, there's the question of how good you want him to be...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's just a random idea, one that might not fit fluff too much: give Dire Avengers infiltrate (and Move Through Cover, which I still think most/all CW:Eldar should have)

Mahtamori wrote:@ Wooly: No, exarchs are definitely not multi-wound, they die quite a lot. What about simply stubborn or re-roll morale? The aspect warriors' war mask helps a lot with morale in general, but the experience and guidance of the exarch is what keeps them together and keeps the war mask from slipping from the less... violent... individuals.

I never said they were multi-wound? I was merely responding to a suggestion that Exarchs should be multi-wound.

Wooly wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:@ Wooly: No, exarchs are definitely not multi-wound, they die quite a lot. What about simply stubborn or re-roll morale? The aspect warriors' war mask helps a lot with morale in general, but the experience and guidance of the exarch is what keeps them together and keeps the war mask from slipping from the less... violent... individuals.

I never said they were multi-wound? I was merely responding to a suggestion that Exarchs should be multi-wound.

Yeah, that was rather an answer to my suggestion. I was just thinking that Autarches after all have 3 wounds, and if Exarches now are the high priests of the shrines they should be a tad better, I think.

Hey guys, I was just looking for some suggestions for the stat lines for Asurmen, Jain Zar, Karandras, Fuegan, Baharroth and Maugen Ra.
I'm sticking with the idea of them replacing an exarch, being limited to 1 per army (unless you take the Biel tan SC) and not taking up a HQ slot. I'll be giving them all their aspects exarch powers, 1 additional power and a fancy bit of wargear each. As long as they are alive they make their unit is scoring (I'll find another little treat to give Asurmen to make up for this).
I'm thinking they should be around the 75-100 point mark. So they will be comparable to a HQ, but not using a FoC slot. I want to see what sort of ideas you have before I write it all out.

@ Gorechild: if they are upgrades for Exarchs and no longer HQ, then I don't think they need to make their aspect scoring. Making them scoring in the first place was merely an idea to get them used, I recon. Especially if they are squad upgrades rather than godly beings of infinite combat experience, I don't think they should make scoring. I think a third power for Dire Avengers will be hard, while Scorpions have a very large pool of possible effects since they are both melee and stealthy - ignore difficult terrain, for instance, arrive from terrain, furious charge, etc.

Wooly wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:@ Wooly: No, exarchs are definitely not multi-wound, they die quite a lot. What about simply stubborn or re-roll morale? The aspect warriors' war mask helps a lot with morale in general, but the experience and guidance of the exarch is what keeps them together and keeps the war mask from slipping from the less... violent... individuals.

I never said they were multi-wound? I was merely responding to a suggestion that Exarchs should be multi-wound.

I know, I was agreeing with you and supplementing your own suggestion.

Mahtamori wrote:@ Gorechild: if they are upgrades for Exarchs and no longer HQ, then I don't think they need to make their aspect scoring. Making them scoring in the first place was merely an idea to get them used, I recon. Especially if they are squad upgrades rather than godly beings of infinite combat experience, I don't think they should make scoring. I think a third power for Dire Avengers will be hard, while Scorpions have a very large pool of possible effects since they are both melee and stealthy - ignore difficult terrain, for instance, arrive from terrain, furious charge, etc.

They only make the unit they are part of scoring, not all units of their aspect. Why can't be "godly beings of infinite combat experience" just because they aren't taking up a HQ slot? My aim was to keep the roughly the same without putting them in direct competition with Farseers or the other HQ options, because IMO, they'd always loose that competition. It would effectively allow you to take a 3rd HQ, much like DE can have an army with 6 HQ's, Wolves can have 3 (or is it 4?) and Daemons can have 4. They'd be HQ-like in every way, except the fact that they aren't independant characters, and do not take up on of the HQ FoC slots.

I think that'd be fine, although I am a bit unsure about them being able to be taken more than once if you have the Biel-Tan SC - I'd say that he would make you able to take two PL or something, not everyone.

The statlines should be as they are now I think (particularly since Drazhar has the same stats at them - hint), although their SR:s (and wargear in some cases) should be changed. Mainly, since the exarch powers has been changed.

This also takes us back to the question wheather Shining Spears and Warp Spiders should get Phoenix Lords. I am frankly not sure since they aren't very wide spread aspects compared to the others.

Well that's why I was thinking they should be around the 100 point mark, their price would make it difficult to include more than 2 or 3, especially on top of the SC that allows you to take them. Not impossible, but difficult.

As awesome as I think a Warp Spider Pheonix Lord would look, I'm not really a fan of introducing them for the newer aspects.

Gorechild wrote:Hey guys, I was just looking for some suggestions for the stat lines for Asurmen, Jain Zar, Karandras, Fuegan, Baharroth and Maugen Ra.
I'm sticking with the idea of them replacing an exarch, being limited to 1 per army (unless you take the Biel tan SC) and not taking up a HQ slot. I'll be giving them all their aspects exarch powers, 1 additional power and a fancy bit of wargear each. As long as they are alive they make their unit is scoring (I'll find another little treat to give Asurmen to make up for this).
I'm thinking they should be around the 75-100 point mark. So they will be comparable to a HQ, but not using a FoC slot. I want to see what sort of ideas you have before I write it all out.

Asurmen counts like a banner. All within 12" granted +1 Attack or 5+ invulnerable save or 1++ to invulnerable save.
Depends on what you want to focus.. DA only or all of army. All of army would be awesome but might be ready to break.

Gorechild wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:@ Gorechild: if they are upgrades for Exarchs and no longer HQ, then I don't think they need to make their aspect scoring. Making them scoring in the first place was merely an idea to get them used, I recon. Especially if they are squad upgrades rather than godly beings of infinite combat experience, I don't think they should make scoring. I think a third power for Dire Avengers will be hard, while Scorpions have a very large pool of possible effects since they are both melee and stealthy - ignore difficult terrain, for instance, arrive from terrain, furious charge, etc.

They only make the unit they are part of scoring, not all units of their aspect. Why can't be "godly beings of infinite combat experience" just because they aren't taking up a HQ slot? My aim was to keep the roughly the same without putting them in direct competition with Farseers or the other HQ options, because IMO, they'd always loose that competition. It would effectively allow you to take a 3rd HQ, much like DE can have an army with 6 HQ's, Wolves can have 3 (or is it 4?) and Daemons can have 4. They'd be HQ-like in every way, except the fact that they aren't independant characters, and do not take up on of the HQ FoC slots.

If they are going to be dropped down to the 100 point mark (later post than quoted), they'd need a statline similar, if not worse, than Autarchs. Autarchs clock in at somewhere 75% of that price without any weapons, and Autarchs take up an all-important HQ slot as well as being an IC so he can be individually targeted in melee. Wolves can have two per slot, yes.

Mahtamori wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:@ Gorechild: if they are upgrades for Exarchs and no longer HQ, then I don't think they need to make their aspect scoring. Making them scoring in the first place was merely an idea to get them used, I recon. Especially if they are squad upgrades rather than godly beings of infinite combat experience, I don't think they should make scoring. I think a third power for Dire Avengers will be hard, while Scorpions have a very large pool of possible effects since they are both melee and stealthy - ignore difficult terrain, for instance, arrive from terrain, furious charge, etc.

They only make the unit they are part of scoring, not all units of their aspect. Why can't be "godly beings of infinite combat experience" just because they aren't taking up a HQ slot? My aim was to keep the roughly the same without putting them in direct competition with Farseers or the other HQ options, because IMO, they'd always loose that competition. It would effectively allow you to take a 3rd HQ, much like DE can have an army with 6 HQ's, Wolves can have 3 (or is it 4?) and Daemons can have 4. They'd be HQ-like in every way, except the fact that they aren't independant characters, and do not take up on of the HQ FoC slots.

If they are going to be dropped down to the 100 point mark (later post than quoted), they'd need a statline similar, if not worse, than Autarchs. Autarchs clock in at somewhere 75% of that price without any weapons, and Autarchs take up an all-important HQ slot as well as being an IC so he can be individually targeted in melee. Wolves can have two per slot, yes.

The 100 point mark sounds about right since you'd be paying that on top of the cost for the Exarch.

I do think Exarchs should be better though. I mean, they are a collective of dozens or hundreds of souls, with literally thousands of years of combat experience. I don't think their statline represents this at all, but I also can't think of a way to implement it without making them too OP.

I just added it all up and I guess 100 is a little bit low. As a normal exarch is 24+ points, maybe 30ish points of powers and 10+ points of wargear they probably in the ball park of 75-ish point.

This is why I wanted to keep the point values out of MKIII. If we just had a ball park figure and designed them around that, designed them in a way that would be fluffy and make as many options as possible viable, we can worry about the points values once its a complete document. It would then let us sort ballance issues with the points values when the stats and rules are more firmly set.

So basically, what do you feel is right for the PL's stats, keeping in mind they won't be IC's and make their unit scoring ect.

I agree that their current stat-line works, although it's pretty much universally agreed that they need an invul-save to be truly good. Even if they can't be targetted independently, I still suppose that you want to give them all at least a 5+ invul save, just in case your opponent decides to send those Power Klaww nobz after ya.
But I also agree that many of their abilities should be changed.
I think they should be lowered in price, but I also agree that a 100 pts. is a bit cheap, ESPECIALLY considering they are ressurectable as long as you still have the Exarch.

Okay so if I leave all the stats as they are now and assume that the aspects and their normal exarch powers are set in stone it gives us something to work off.

Lets start with Maugen Ra, The basic DR powers are:
Relentless: Unit replaces Slow and Purposeful with Relentless
Crack shot: Enemies cover saves of whole unit reduced by 1 (4+ becomes 5+)

They have the tracker helm as suggested for the Autarch (ignores night fighting and 6+ inv save) and their weapons are the same as now.

I think the main priority is to make Maugen's weapon awesome, I'd like to make his power like fast shot, but giving the extra shot to the whole unit, but I think that would be WAY to many points (especially considering they'd be scoring too). Thoughts?

To be fair I think Maugan Ra's weapon is quite awesome already. Rending Shuricannon with inbuilt executioner is pretty nice, I think. Maybe he could ignore cover completely, or even make his whole squad do that (would definitely be a reason to take him as that is one of DR:s weaknesses).

That would definitely make him worth taking. Maybe give him an AP2 shuriken cannon rather than rending (like the AP2 shuriken pistol suggested for the Autarch)? It would help make them the perfect anti-MEQ shooting unit. Or the cover modifier could just be improved, ignoring cover completely would make them even more expensive.

I think the most important thing is to have it's range be 48" to match the rest of the squad, that way you aren't losing a foot of range if you want to use him.

Gorechild wrote:Right, I've made some changes to the Autarch. I won't repost it all now, it will be in V3 though.

I can't help but think the Avatar is a little boring, I'd much rather see him in the 175-200 point monster. as it stands he is like:

Fandex wrote:The Avatar of Khaine – xxx points

WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
10 6 6 6 6 4 4 10 3+

Unit Type: Monstrous Creature, Unique

Special Rules: Fleet, Daemon, Molten Body, Fearless, Inspiring

War gear: The Wailing Doom


Molten Body – Any “Melta” type or fire based weapons (Flamers, Heavy flamers, Scorcha, Flamestorm cannons ect) have no effect against the Avatar.

Inspiring - Any friendly unit within 12” of the Avatar gains the fearless special rule. Any unit that can draw line of sight to the Avatar has the stubborn USR, even if they are more than 12” away.

Daemon – The Avatar is a Daemon and is therefore affected by any weapons with special rules against Daemons. This also confers a 4+ invulnerable save and the Eternal Warrior special rule.

Wailing Doom – As now

There was a suggestion (can't remember by who, sorry ) to let the Avatar surround himself in fire, which I think could be an interesting addition. Maybe: When in close combat the Avatar may choose to bathe his surroundings in flame in lieu of making his normal attacks. Center a large blast marker over the Avatar when he is in close combat, all models (friend or foe) under the template are automatically hit. Resolve the with the following profile: S5 AP4.

This would make him decent against hordes (and amazing against other Eldar ), and just adds a little more flavour. thoughts? Any other suggestions? If a lot of people prefer him as a cheap(ish) HQ like now then I can leave him as is.

I had suggested something similar to that idea a while back, but I like the way you proposed it better. I have always thought the avatar deserves to be better (he is currently quite outmatched by the wraithlord in the fandex) and so a points boost is not out of place. As I have said before he needs something to reflect his literally godlike battle prowess. Preferred enemy is a must; we could add it as an effect of the wailing doom even.
I hate to keep harping on this point but its hard for me to accept the rather lackluster MC we have now that is supposed to be a god of war. I'm glad eternal warrior was added but preferred enemy needs to get in there too. I'm thinking it would be nice to get him up to the 200 point mark which, assuming we add preferred enemy and perhaps the flame attack, would be pretty reasonable

So I've been doing plenty of thinking at work. (I spend most of my day sanding boats and thinking about 40k.)This is what I came up with so far this week.

Phoenix lords
I imagine that Phoenix lords could actually be the generals of armies, and they would affect the units around them, even if they aren't their own. The command those in proximity to the extent that they are familiar. Thus I included a guardian affect within 12", similar to a banner carrier but unique to each phoenix lord. This would be more a suggestion for how to make them fit the current cost they have instead of moving them to uber exarchs. This makes the assumption that including them in the army does not already make their aspect scoring.

Asurman:
Asurman has taught the eldar all they know war to this day. He was the first of the modern Eldar generals and thus he has more knowledge of battle schemes then any other.
Granted the same powers as an autarch.
He may join any unit, and any unit he joins counts as scoring.
Guardians within 12" gain +1 to BS and WS.

Jain Zar:
All howling banshees count as troops, banshee mask morale tests are taken on 3D6 instead of the normal 2D6
Guardians have +1 attack on the charge

Feugan:
All fire dragons gain feel no pain
Guardians become fearless when he is within 12"

Karandras:
All striking scorpions gain stealth and have a hidden deployment option. Lay down three numbered tokens for each SS squad in cover, pick one for each squad. (similar to ambush rules) Enemy units must test against night fighting rules to see if a token is fake or a squad.
Guardians gain +1 cover save within 12"

Baharroth:
Swooping hawks can move "flat out" similar to skimmers gaining a 6+ cover save for moving 12" or a 4+ cover save for moving 24"
Guardians gain hit and run.

Maugan Ra:
Surgical strike. Dark reapers squads may pick out single targets in a squad. All dark reapers in a squad may elect to shoot at a single model in a squad.
Guardians: May focus their shuriken catapults for a single shot at 18" or the normal two shots at 12"

Lhykosadea:
Warp Beacon: Warp spiders roll 3 dice to teleport and choose two.
Guardians: May move 3" during their assault phase if not in close combat.

War Seer 55 pts

Another thought I had while working. What if when a warlock gets lost on the road of the psychic fighter they didn't go into support roles like farseers but stayed with getting dirty and up close and personal. Well this is what I came up with, and I think it would be an interesting way to up the psychic potential of the Eldar.

WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 3 4 2 6 2 10

Special rules:
A warseer must take one to four of the following psychic powers.

War gear:
Rune armor: A model wearing rune armor has a 4+ invulnerable save.
Shuriken pistol.
Witchblade: War seer's wield witchblades as in the 40,000 rule book.

Singing spear:
Like witchblades roll a 2+ to wound, but count as strength 9 against vehicles.
Range 12" S: X AP6 assault 1

War seer powers:

Destructor squared: (couldn't think of an awsome name.) 30pts
Drawing upon a rage greater than any human could comprehend the war seer unleashes his fury in a near physical blast of roiling energy.
Use a heavy flamer template S7 AP 3 assault 1

Psychic warrior: 30pts
The war seer fights his opponents not only in this world but in the immaterium, slashing at an opponents mind in concert with his weapon.
Any unit wounded by the warseer must take a leadership test and if failed take 1 wound.

Enrage: 25pts
The war seer fuels his unit with anger lending his own strength to their every hit.
All models in the unit including the warseer gains the following stat changes for one turn.
+1 WS +1 S +1 T -2 I

Focused blast: 25pts
range 6" AP1 Assault 1
Unit is wounded on a leadership test with 3D6

Small eldritch storm: 25pts
Range 24" S4 AP5 Small blast, assault 1

Then I was thinking about that even more and I thought a warseer would be a perfect extension then for the Biel Tan. Similar to a farseer like Ulthwe, the warseer would be the leading hawk in a council on Biel tan that was pulling for re-establishing Eldar dominance through violence. So in the mold of Eldrad here is Aries.

Aries the Raptor: 200ish points
WS BS S T W I A LD
6 6 4 4 3 6 3 10

Has all five warseer abilities similar to Eldrad,
Wind sword: counts as a witch blade, and may cast 3 psychic powers per turn
Counts as an autarch, and has the same abilities.
Swooping hawk wings
Fusion pistol

The final idea I had come up with was a lhykosadea for the warp spiders. \

Lhykosadea
WS BS S T W I A LD
7 7 4 4 3 7 3 10

Warp rider: So familiar with the tides and eddies of the warp she and any warp spider squad she is with rolls 3d6 and chooses 2.

Warp Assault: Lhykosadea continues to flicker in and out of the warp even in close combat. This gives her a 4+ invulnerable save.

Swift movement: Guardians within 12" of Lhykosadea may move up to 6" during the assault phase if not in hand to hand combat. a

Not sure about these Phoenix Lords, for one thing I don't see why they should make Guardians better when they're the greatest of the aspect warriors

Interesting idea on the Warseer, and I agree that for a race of psykers having only 2 special characters that are psykers seems a bit odd.

I like that Aries is able to combine Autarch Strategies with Psychic power.

I'm sure that many people disagree with a warp spider phoenix lord, since the aspect is not one of the originals, but what if we added fluff that she was a new guy, sort of like Karandras. Meanwhile I like warp rider since it drastically reduces the chance of a spider being lost by the warp.

Karandras is first generation exarchs, but more powerful than most Phoenix Lords, from what I can gather. A Warp Spider exarch would be significantly younger, since the technology used by that aspect is an invention after the War In Heavens, but it is still possible that their founding exarch has managed to advance to a state capable of transcending flesh, where the soul would no longer be viable for predation of She Who Hungers.
However, for Warp Spiders it's a duality, either their exarchs are less likely to advance to a state of Phoenix Lord, or more likely, due to their constant exposure to the Warp.

While the fluff is bad, goto did write a book that included a warp spider phoenix lord, so does exist. Just not in the model range. It would stand to reason to me that if your aspect is recognized enough to hit fluff, in detail, then it should be ready for a model and rules.

My theory about affecting guardians was more a making them a general who is influencing the units around him, but if we are aiming to make them cheaper and have them as aspect upgrades then that whole line of thinking would be easy to remove. Perhaps just Asurman would get a banner type ability.

seapheonix wrote:While the fluff is bad, goto did write a book that included a warp spider phoenix lord, so does exist. Just not in the model range. It would stand to reason to me that if your aspect is recognized enough to hit fluff, in detail, then it should be ready for a model and rules.

My theory about affecting guardians was more a making them a general who is influencing the units around him, but if we are aiming to make them cheaper and have them as aspect upgrades then that whole line of thinking would be easy to remove. Perhaps just Asurman would get a banner type ability.

I like it simple: Asurmen gets banner equivalent. Other phx lords allow their aspect to count as troops for controlling objectives. Perhaps allowing a PHX Lord to have one extra squad of his aspect as a retinue. So someone can field 4 scorpions or firedragons, they would all count as troops but you couldn't proliferate them to extreme --- 6 units of fire dragons.

Well, any Eldar player with self-respect I've ever seen review Goto has come to the conclusion that, in varying degrees of harsh language, Goto would not even know Khaine's second name. So let's ignore him and live on happily ever after.

As far as Guardians go, I have never managed to fit in the Eldar view of violence versus how Guardians would function in the first place. On one hand, the Eldar psyche is more or less broken down or destroyed when exposed to violence, while on the other hand Guardians seem to be quite commonly used in larger engagements.
I would hazard a guess that the Eldar most suited for Guardian duty would be those that at one time in their life has trained as an aspect warrior and can don the War Mask - in which case their low WS/BS makes no sense. An Eldar may suppress most of the knowledge from previous paths, but skills and impressions still remain.

That said... I don't know about being leaders to anything but their own aspect. As far as the Path of the Warrior goes, it seems that only aspect warriors feel the psychic presence of the phoenix lords, but in that case Karandras would attract the attention of, for example, Dark Reapers as well. Other Eldar seem to sense them only through the Infinity Circuit.

P.S. Wow, Path of the Warrior is choke full of good Eldar fluff

I just realised how long its been since I posted an update!
I've finished with Asurmen and Maugen. I'm struggling with the others though, so any suggestions would be awesome.

So far I was thinking:
Jain Zar: power weapon, can be used as a thrown weapon as well (ap2?). Either loads of attacks (not so fond of) or instant death?

Fuegan: Heat lance that does major damage to transported units if the vehicle is destroyed (S6 AP2/3 maybe?). same as now in combat.

Baharroth: no idea at all

Karandras: general CC beatstick. tonnes of S4 attacks, possibly confers an extra attack to his unit?

Thoughts?

I like the idea of monofilament that goes with the shadow weaver and night spinner, and was thinking it could have more application. Here were a few ideas.

@Harlequins
Monofilament whip. This whip could be carried by harlequins as an upgrade, or more likely the Troupe master. Made from the same filament contained in a shadow weaver or night spinner, it slices through armor with ease. Can be taken instead of harlequin's kiss, and allows any model equipped with it to ignore all armor saves.

@Striking scorpions
Monofilament Chainsword. This sword would replace a scorpion chainsword. It would still confer +1 S to attacks, but would also weaken armor saves by 1 (a 3+ armor save becomes 4+) to a makimum of 6+.

@Vehicles
Monofilament Web. This rule could be an upgrade for vehicles, such as falcons or fire prisms, and maybe even for jetbikes or vypers. Monofilament wires are stretched tightly aroung the vehicles hull to an extreme tension. They are designed to break on impact and lash out with the sudden release of tension, slicing through nearby foes. when any unit declares an assault on an eldar vehicle or vehilce squadron, or the eldar squadron declares an assault, one D3+1 is rolled. The resulting number represents the chance of a monofilament wire breaking in that assault phase. For the rest of the assault phase, every D3+1 hits scored against the eldar unit results in one S4 AP2 against the assaulting unit. For example, an assault is declared against a Falcon. The eldar player rolls a D3+1 resulting in a two. For the rest of the assault phase, every two hits on the falcon results in in one S4 AP2 hit back against the assaulting unit. Any wounds are allocated seperately from all other wounds (in case the rule is applied to Jetbikes), as they happen both unexpectedly and uncontrollably.

The numbers may need modification but I think these rules, especially the Monofilament web, could be added to the Fandex.

aman9324 wrote:@Harlequins
Monofilament whip. This whip could be carried by harlequins as an upgrade, or more likely the Troupe master. Made from the same filament contained in a shadow weaver or night spinner, it slices through armor with ease. Can be taken instead of harlequin's kiss, and allows any model equipped with it to ignore all armor saves.

Would hardly make any difference as the troupe master already can take a power weapon.
Also a bit doubtful about how a monofilament chainsword would work, however I like the idea of having webs attached to vehicles.

Saintspirit wrote:

aman9324 wrote:@Harlequins
Monofilament whip. This whip could be carried by harlequins as an upgrade, or more likely the Troupe master. Made from the same filament contained in a shadow weaver or night spinner, it slices through armor with ease. Can be taken instead of harlequin's kiss, and allows any model equipped with it to ignore all armor saves.

Would hardly make any difference as the troupe master already can take a power weapon.
Also a bit doubtful about how a monofilament chainsword would work, however I like the idea of having webs attached to vehicles.

I'm not sure exactly how you'd suggest it would work, but to me it feels like an attempt to copy DE's bladevanes. If you can think of a way of implementing it thats not basically a copy of the DE rules then it might be interesting.

No suggestions for the PL's then?

Jain Zar should have executioner. Not sure about how Karandras should be but don't think he should give others an extra attack, although he should still have the scorpions bite. Don't think he need so much change really, he gives them stealth and hits hard.

An idea that came to me was to introduce some of the new (more or less) tanks forgeworld has made, but not crowding the heavy support section by them working similar to leman russes. So the base tank is the Falcon Grav-tank, which can also be a Falcon Fire Prism,, a Falcon Firestorm, a Falcon Warp Hunter, or a Falcon Night Spinner. How does that sound?

Put a pretty big set of suggestions for phoenix lords earlier. Maybe not all the guardian abilities, but I still like the Karandras makes SS deploy like in an ambush scenario.

Baharroth allowing the swooping hawks to move flat out and gaining the equivalent cover saves. I would really like a return to the phoenix lords having weapons better then the exarchs. So something with more impact then the sun rifle current version.

Maybe Jain Zar's executioner not only gives +2 strength and ignores armor like a power weapon?

The Executioner is already a power weapon. Maybe give Jain Zar an improved version of War Shout? I forget if we kept it as leadership or changed it to initiative, but have Jain Zar give a minus two or three to the test.

I think Karandras is mostly fine as he is, he just needs a drop in points.

Maugan Ra definitely needs the Maugetar's range extended to 48" to match the Reaper Launcher, also let the squad ignore cover saves.

I like Gorechild's idea about Fuegan melting units inside their transports, that sounds awesome.

Asurmen's mostly fine as is, maybe make his diresword force them to take the leadership test on 3d6 so there's more chances of it working.

I'm also kinda stumped on Baharroth.

Doh, silly me on executioner. Well we've made the swooping hawks into mobile tank killers right. What could we give him that would follow in that vein? How about a sun lance?

Range 24" S7 AP2 Assault 2, Lance.
?
Maybe give him some kind of bombard since they often would be shooting from the sky? Ignores cover, always hits rear armor?

At the moment I've got warshout down as an initiative test, as 9 times out of 10, a basic Ld test is really really easy to pass.

So if we keep Karandras as he is now as far as stats and wargear go it would be fine. What about his exarch power though?
As it stands the SS' already have "Stalkers - A unit with this ability can come in from reserve from any piece of terrain rather than their board edge" as a basic power.

I've changed Asurmen so it just automatically causes instant death, no need for a test. Is that too much?

Banshees (War Shout)

Is the initiative test unit or model dependent? If it is unit dependent, does it go by majority, by group, or by highest (the BRB does not specify)?

An initiative test will succeed on a "3+" for group leader GEQ, basic MEQ and Eldar, "2+" for group leader or elite MEQ and Eldar as well as characters.

War Shout gives -1 penalty to hit for enemies and +1 to hit for Banshees against elite MEQ/Eldar. It gives -1 to hit to enemies and +0 to hit for Banshees against Guardians and lower initiative.
The only point in which War Shout actually matters a lot is against MEQ/Eldar/CC HQ, in which case it gives -2 penalty to hit for the HQ unit and +1 for the Banshees.

Translated: War Shout offers very little return for something that the enemy get to defend themselves against because the 40k WS chart does not punish low-WS models.
As far as it goes, War Shout is still a very expensive power at 5 points since it really doesn't do a lot more than complicate the combat.
I'd say beef it up to something that merits 10-15 points, remove the "save", and keep combat flowing easier.

Go from "Banshees hit on 4+ and get hit on 4+" to "Banshees hit on 3+ and get hit on 5+" on the assault.

Also, Banshees still need plasma grenades, or to have their masks provide the effect thereof (which it currently does not do).

---

Dire Avengers

Dire Avenger Exarch Dire Sword ought to be altered. Change it to pseudo-Force Weapon, I recon, meaning it'd require an LD test to cause ID, but it's not a psychic ability and doesn't cause POTW. Or it could just cause ID straight up, since it's on a relatively low strength model in a unit that's not geared for assault.

Additionally, I think we've approached Dire Avengers wrong. Dire Avengers are the Aspect Warriors that, according to the fluff, are all-rounders and versatile. I still hold that one way to make them stand out from Guardians is to allow them to use catapults in melee (i.e. +1S in melee).

---

Swooping Hawks

Baharroth's weapon be a Haywire Blaster that fire templates? I believe that a regular Exarch may already give Flat-out, seaphoenix, but in Turbo-Boost version, which is better. Maybe simply improve the Haywire rule to give 5+ penetration instead of 6+?

---

Shining Spears

Under-slung Bright Lance option for Exarch?

The shots from a Laser Lance are irrelevant. Their bikes have twin-linked Shuricats, which are nearly always better. The shot really must be S6 Ap2/3 in order to even be worth using (or Assault 2).
Also, range 12" since, again, they'd be irrelevant if they are range 6" and the unit has Master of the Charge.

The wording of the Laser Lance should be changed due to the rules regarding Special Close Combat Weapons. I suggest changing it so that it contains "May only be used during an assault phase in which the wielder counts as assaulting" - otherwise it's a two-handed close combat weapon that must be used in later rounds of combat as well, even if the Exarch has a better option in CCW+Pistol.

Master Riders could simply read "and the unit never counts as assaulting through cover". Makes it more edition-proof, as well as it currently also grants S6 grenade attacks against vehicles, which I do not think is intended.

---

Exarchs in general.

Several Exarchs may be granted several ranged weapons, which are all translated to be "fired as a single weapon that counts as Assault X". Why not simply make a blanket statement that "Exarchs may fire up to two ranged weapons of the same kind at the same time"?

---

Crystal Dragons

Hey! I just realized there's no anti-MEQ shooter in Fast Attack section!

Jet Infantry, heavy armour, R18" S6 Ap2 Heavy 2 (Laser-based tech).
Exarch power 1: Reflective Skin - in order to penetrate the Crystal Dragon armour, the AP value of the attack must be at least one point better than the model's armour value.
Exarch power 2: Focus - the unit may fire their laser weapons at twice the normal range, but each weapon fires one shot less than ordinary.

---

I fully support the Falcon Chassis unification. Base hull should be around 60 points. Star Eagle pilot.
Pulse +40 points (Crystal Targeting Matrix sold separately)
Prism +55 points
Spinner +60 points
D-Cannon +60 points
I'd also like to see a Shrieker (twin Vibro Cannon), just imagine a Vibro Cannon that can actually line up the shots.

Anti-MEQ unit sounds ok I guess, albeit a bit too good maybe, however I strongly contradict the name you propose as it contains a word already used for another aspect.

As we were thinking of moving the Falc to dedicated transport, would it not make sense to make the Fire Prism the basic model, then say it may replace its Prism cannon with X.Y or Z for however many points? If we worked of the Falcon you'd need to include "this removes their transport capacity" or something to that effect, on every option.

Leave the CTM as a falcon only upgrade, along with the pulse laser, then just have all the others bassed of a BS4 frame that can take the usual vehicle upgrades.

Saintspirit wrote:Anti-MEQ unit sounds ok I guess, albeit a bit too good maybe, however I strongly contradict the name you propose as it contains a word already used for another aspect.

Crystal Dragons is taken from Path of the Warrior where that aspect is mentioned as being one of the newer aspects (along side with Warp Spiders, for example), although I might get the name slightly wrong. There's also the name of Slicing Orbs of Zandros to consider, if one is to take a name that is already canon. It is necessary to be good in such a way. If it does not have two shots, it will perform worse than Warp Spiders against MEQ, and MEQ tends to have heavy weapons so their armour needs to be on the better side. The points target would be in the 20-25 per model range. They essentially carry short-range Star Cannons (4th edition variant).

Gorechild wrote:As we were thinking of moving the Falc to dedicated transport, would it not make sense to make the Fire Prism the basic model, then say it may replace its Prism cannon with X.Y or Z for however many points? If we worked of the Falcon you'd need to include "this removes their transport capacity" or something to that effect, on every option.

Leave the CTM as a falcon only upgrade, along with the pulse laser, then just have all the others bassed of a BS4 frame that can take the usual vehicle upgrades.

That is, of course, a good point. Needs some sort of unifying name, though, so the codex entry would look better. Granted, it would simply be "Grav-tank" or maybe take it's name from their pilots, "Star Eagles" (was it Star Eagles?)?

Crystal Dragons is taken from Path of the Warrior where that aspect is mentioned as being one of the newer aspects (along side with Warp Spiders, for example), although I might get the name slightly wrong.

It is very possible that name was mentioned, I just don't like it, as there's Fire Dragons too. I feel every aspect should have a unique name (though, now I may be a bit pedantic).

Mahtamori wrote:

Gorechild wrote:As we were thinking of moving the Falc to dedicated transport, would it not make sense to make the Fire Prism the basic model, then say it may replace its Prism cannon with X.Y or Z for however many points? If we worked of the Falcon you'd need to include "this removes their transport capacity" or something to that effect, on every option.

Leave the CTM as a falcon only upgrade, along with the pulse laser, then just have all the others bassed of a BS4 frame that can take the usual vehicle upgrades.

That is, of course, a good point. Needs some sort of unifying name, though, so the codex entry would look better. Granted, it would simply be "Grav-tank" or maybe take it's name from their pilots, "Star Eagles" (was it Star Eagles?)?

The problem is that all the tanks (Wave Serpents, Falcons, Fire Prisns, Night Spinners ect) are refered to as "Grav-Tanks".

If the entry was something allong the lines of:

Based on the same chasis as the Wave Serpent and Falcon transports, the *name* exchanges all of its transport capability to mount the Eldars most highly advanced and destructive weapons.

*Name* - xxx points

FA12 SA12 RA10 BS4

Unit Type: Tank, Fast, Skimmer

The *name* must take one of the following weapons:
Prism Cannon - xx points
Shrieker Cannon - xx points
Night Spinner - xx points
D-Cannon - xx points

The *name* may take any of the following:
Holo-Fields - xx points
Star Engines - xx points
Spirit Stones - xx points
Vectored Engines - xx points

Makes the HS slot a load more tidy.

Version 3 is up in the 1st post. Most the PL's are done and theres a few other minor tweaks. Check it out and let me know what could do with being added/changed

Gorechild wrote:Based on the same chasis as the Wave Serpent and Falcon transports, the *name* exchanges all of its transport capability to mount the Eldars most highly advanced and destructive weapons.

*Name* - xxx points

FA12 SA12 RA10 BS4

Unit Type: Tank, Fast, Skimmer

The *name* must take one of the following weapons:
Prism Cannon - xx points
Shrieker Cannon - xx points
Night Spinner - xx points
D-Cannon - xx points

The *name* may take any of the following:
Holo-Fields - xx points
Star Engines - xx points
Spirit Stones - xx points
Vectored Engines - xx points

Makes the HS slot a load more tidy.

I think that's good, although you forgot the Firestorm (that is, if we are to include that one).
It's Maugan Ra, not Maugen Ra.
Some better names for Asurmens weapons could be the Sword of Asur, Aurora Shield and I dunno about the catapults.

Long time no post.

I actually had a thought on Karandras. What about granting him an ability like the Harlequins' Veil of Tears or Tau's stealth suits?
I mean he is supposed to be the one that made Striking Scorpions silent and sneaky, right? So it would make sense that he makes them harder to detect.

Saintspirit wrote:

Gorechild wrote:Based on the same chasis as the Wave Serpent and Falcon transports, the *name* exchanges all of its transport capability to mount the Eldars most highly advanced and destructive weapons.

*Name* - xxx points

FA12 SA12 RA10 BS4

Unit Type: Tank, Fast, Skimmer

The *name* must take one of the following weapons:
Prism Cannon - xx points
Shrieker Cannon - xx points
Night Spinner - xx points
D-Cannon - xx points

The *name* may take any of the following:
Holo-Fields - xx points
Star Engines - xx points
Spirit Stones - xx points
Vectored Engines - xx points

Makes the HS slot a load more tidy.

I think that's good, although you forgot the Firestorm (that is, if we are to include that one).
It's Maugan Ra, not Maugen Ra.
Some better names for Asurmens weapons could be the Sword of Asur, Aurora Shield and I dunno about the catapults.

I'll add the firestorm in
I've changed Maugen to Maugan and Asurmen's wargear as well

Wooly wrote:Long time no post.

I actually had a thought on Karandras. What about granting him an ability like the Harlequins' Veil of Tears or Tau's stealth suits?
I mean he is supposed to be the one that made Striking Scorpions silent and sneaky, right? So it would make sense that he makes them harder to detect.

I guess that makes sense going by the fluff, but I don't know how usefull it would be if they can come in from reserve a long way up the board though.

Gorechild wrote:

Wooly wrote:Long time no post.

I actually had a thought on Karandras. What about granting him an ability like the Harlequins' Veil of Tears or Tau's stealth suits?
I mean he is supposed to be the one that made Striking Scorpions silent and sneaky, right? So it would make sense that he makes them harder to detect.

I guess that makes sense going by the fluff, but I don't know how usefull it would be if they can come in from reserve a long way up the board though.

It means that you might elect to place your scorpions in a vulnerable position instead of playing it safe. I believe it CAN potentially make a world of difference as to how it's safe to use SS.

Just some rambling thoughts which have no relevance to the discussion at this flash-frozen moment:

Wraiths, both kinds:
* Monstrous Creatures
* May not run
* May not sweeping advance
* Wraithsight is rolled each phase rather than turn. On 1, the unit's actions automatically fail in this phase. Psychers nearby allows re-roll. Spiritseer auto-succeed roll.
Wraithlord:
* 3 basic attacks
* Take one or two special weapons in any combination
* Swords add one melee attack
Wraithguard:
* May not ever be Troop, unless army is lead by Iyanden SC
* Same sturdy design
* Ranged weapon is two-shot
* Squad size is 3-5.
* Still single wound, so cost per model approximately 1/3 of fully tooled 'lord. (I.e. very slight increase)

Essentially, nerf mobility slightly, increase chance of wraithsight, but limit the effect thereof. Increase offensive power of 'guard significantly and melee power of 'lord slightly. Note also that 'guard would suffer significantly nerfed chances of gaining cover.
Fire Dragons would still offer more ranged firepower against both infantry and above all vehicles, while 'guards offer increased survivability and melee power.

(Current Wraithguard are a bit of a joke. Just compare performance per point with Dragons when not shooting at vehicles.)

My proposal would be to make the wraith units more resilient but perhaps more susceptible to weapons.

Wraithlord:
W 5 T6 FNP 3+ SV
Wraithguard:
W2 T6 FNP 3+ Sv

They will be hard to kill and should be but concentrated fire should take them down. T6 makes it so they can die to massed AP2 weapons or power weapons but they would be scary indeed to a mass of non-power weapon armed troops.

I like the idea of A3 for wraithlord and +1 attack for the sword. Twp weapons do not result in twin linking. So if you pay for two bright lances, you get two bright lance shots.

Wraithguard perhaps change the weapon to rapidfire 18".
That way they can go stationary and fire without being in assault range or they can move within 12" and get two shots but they can't shoot twice and charge the remnants either.

I don't mind if wraithguard can be troops IF you pay the points and take a squad of 10. I like the idea though of the Iyanden SC qualifying 3-5 man squads as troop choices.

I really like the Lords being T8. They are one of the very few units in the game that get that immunity to S4 attacks and I think that alone makes them characterful.

IMO the only things that cause them trouble at the moment is their lack of an inv save, and the whole 80 point twin-linked brightlance idiocy. If the heavy weapons get a universal price cut to put them in line with the other 5th ed dex's, and they get an (5 or 6+) invulnerable when by a spiritseer (6 or 12"?). Their base cost could go up to maybe 110-120 points to accomodate for this, along with the fearless/immune to poison part we've included in the "Wraith" rule.

@Shuriken cannons: This may not be a primary consideration, but I'd just like to throw out there that if you drop Shuriken Cannons to S4 you have just made the Nightwing virtually useless. The primary reason it was so cool is that you got 6 S6 AA shots at BS 4, giving it about a 60% chance to obliterate an enemy fighter (more if you're targeting an AV 10 ground vehicle) in one turn of shooting; with your modification you've cut that in half.

AnomanderRake wrote:@Shuriken cannons: This may not be a primary consideration, but I'd just like to throw out there that if you drop Shuriken Cannons to S4 you have just made the Nightwing virtually useless. The primary reason it was so cool is that you got 6 S6 AA shots at BS 4, giving it about a 60% chance to obliterate an enemy fighter (more if you're targeting an AV 10 ground vehicle) in one turn of shooting; with your modification you've cut that in half.

Another vote for leaving the SC where it is at. Sure the eldar have a glut of S6 weapons but cost can be the determining factor.

SC = Free
SL = +10
StC= +15 (+20 if ROF 3)

The shuriken cannon should be the baseline. Short ranged lower ROF but free. SC on EJB gives them some punch reducing it to S4 also reduces the impact of EJB units as well as a vehicle upgrade.

Personally I would prefer the Star Cannon to be str 7. I mean I thought Eldar were masters at harnessing plasma, why should it be so low powered? Failing that ignoring cover would be a suitable alternative

A Shuriken Cannon at S4 Assault 5 or 6 have significantly increased fire power over the twin-Catapult, increasing the average kill frequency of a jetbike by approximately half again, it's range by double and it's maximum killing power by up to three times!
As a vehicle upgrade, such a weapon is, again, a straight upgrade where the S6 Shuriken Cannon is simply situational. You don't know if you will actually have a use for a S6 Cannon, since your main weapon is likely always going to be preferable when moving, while a S4 Cannon you will always have a use for unless you can't shoot at all.
Add to this that the Eldar already have an obvious S6 weapon, and that the only consideration between the two are "do I want to have +12" range or penetrate 4+ and 5+ saves?"

Another approach is to change the Scatter Laser, of course. It's purely bad design to have so many weapons with near identical stats, especially when the only practical difference between Scatter Laser and Shurican is that the Shurican, while worse, is the only one that can be under-slung.

Same basically goes for the Star Cannon. Poor design to have it high rate of fire S6, which is why it's been suggested it should be Heavy 1 Blast. (This would also serve to separate it as a poor man's anti-transport)

Mahtamori wrote:A Shuriken Cannon at S4 Assault 5 or 6 have significantly increased fire power over the twin-Catapult, increasing the average kill frequency of a jetbike by approximately half again, it's range by double and it's maximum killing power by up to three times!
As a vehicle upgrade, such a weapon is, again, a straight upgrade where the S6 Shuriken Cannon is simply situational. You don't know if you will actually have a use for a S6 Cannon, since your main weapon is likely always going to be preferable when moving, while a S4 Cannon you will always have a use for unless you can't shoot at all.
Add to this that the Eldar already have an obvious S6 weapon, and that the only consideration between the two are "do I want to have +12" range or penetrate 4+ and 5+ saves?"

Another approach is to change the Scatter Laser, of course. It's purely bad design to have so many weapons with near identical stats, especially when the only practical difference between Scatter Laser and Shurican is that the Shurican, while worse, is the only one that can be under-slung.

Same basically goes for the Star Cannon. Poor design to have it high rate of fire S6, which is why it's been suggested it should be Heavy 1 Blast. (This would also serve to separate it as a poor man's anti-transport)

If I have to separate the three my vote is:

Shuriken Cannon left as is ROF3 Rng 24" AP 4 S6
Scatter Laser Rof 4 Rng 36" AP 5 S6
Starcannon ROF4 Rng 36" AP2 S4

Make the starcannon a non-vehicle killer and a pure anti-MEQ/TEQ choice.
Leave the shuriken cannon where it is as it provides flexibility to Bikes and vehicle upgrades.
Leave the scatter laser as a starcannon upgrade in both range and ROF.
Perhaps make the starcannon a dual purpose by allowing ROF 1 Sm Blast Rng 36" AP2 S6 or S7

I'm sorry but starcannons cannot be that low of strength. They are Plasma Wapons. they should be fitting the role as light vehicle or heavy infranty killers.

Oriallis wrote:I'm sorry but starcannons cannot be that low of strength. They are Plasma Wapons. they should be fitting the role as light vehicle or heavy infranty killers.

The DE disintegrator of the last codex had rof 3 low strength and rof 1 sm blast high strength. But you illustrate the problem - while having a choice of 3 S6 weapons is nice, it is also weak if you don't get the points correct otherwise you will end up with a default best choice.
Previous Eldar codex - starcannons
Current codex - scatter laser

I still believe the right choice is to properly cost them out.

Shuriken cannon - free (+5 pt to upgrade TL-shuriken catapult)
Scatter Laser - +10 pts
Starcannon - +10 pts (+15 or +20 if ROF increased back to 3)

With the predominance of cover saves, the power of AP2 is lessened. So with the current high cost of starcannons the scatter laser with the ROF of 4 and the 36" range has become preferred over
ROF 3 rng 24" or ROF 2 rng 36".

Theoretically costing them correctly can be done, the problem is that the weapons themselves are similar and it kills the diversity of the weapons choices by large. This means that you'd need more weapons to do the job, and right now we've got 3 weapons for the anti-MC/anti-transport segment, 1 weapon for anti-infantry, 0 weapons for anti-MEQ/anti-TEQ, 0 weapons for anti-GEQ, and 1 missile launcher.

I know this is drawing the lines pretty damned harsh, but we've got a bunch of vehicles that cost 110+ points that need to somehow earn their points back. Ironically we've got a single vehicle that fills the role of anti-tank, anti-GEQ, and anti-MEQ/TEQ all at once - Fire Prism.
Empire have more diverse weapons than Eldar and generally solves the problem with being able to carry more (and cheaper) weapons. While Eldar only have one and a half weapon per tank, those weapons need to perform. As a side note this can cause an interesting vulnerability - very power weapon that is easily destroyed, versus the Empire's several weapons.

I simply propose that the weapons be more clean-cut.
Star Cannon should excel at killing MEQ while being limited in use against vehicles and GEQ - this means that each shot must count, but be limited in effect so that the average GEQ killed be similar to average MEQ killed.
Scatter Laser or Shuriken Cannon should be deadly to GEQ, but limited against MEQ - here is the problem, though, in that GEQ are generally so low cost that the required ROF to make a shot-weapon good against them automatically makes that same weapon extremely good against MEQ by virtue of Death-By-Saves. Or TLDR: MEQ usually require 3x as many shots to kill, but usually cost more than 3x the points of GEQ.

And then we have the problem of the Bright Lance either being poor in strength or simply grossly over-costed. Remember that Eldar can't take several the way Empire can.

I agree - the old DE disintegrator model would move the starcannon into an anti-MEQ/TEQ model

ROF 3 AP2 S4 or 5
or
ROF 1 AP2 S6 or 7 small blast

The problem I have with the bright lance is it apparently is the same as a dark lance so it apparently is locked in at
S8 AP2 with armor being maxed at 12 due to lance. I think it needs to be left as is but the cost should be adjusted down. Compare the cost of a wave serpent with TL bright lance to a DE raider. One to one the wave serpent is definitely superior but I know my DE is going to spam 5 of them plus 3 ravagers. That is 14 dark lance shots at a BS of 4 for that same price perhaps an eldar may field 4 or even 5 wave serpents that is 5 shots that are slightly more accurate than the DE but they are losing out on the fact that the DE are almost putting 3 to 1 shots down range. Cost a bright lance cheaper OR give it a S9 plus lance to improve its lethality.

The other factor is the costing of eldar vehicles in 4th ed where a moving skimmer meant your opponent was only glancing versus 5th ed where you can pen it. Think of it this way a SW with 3 long fangs putting out 15 missile shots hit 10 times. In the old days that meant 5 glances. Now days it is @ 2 glances and @ 3 pens. Eldar vehicles are overpriced at their base cost.

To put it another way, a Tau devilfish has the same base AV and has a weapon similar to a shuriken cannon mounted on it. It is about 25% cheaper and for a mere 5 points has better survivability than an eldar vehicle at range. A razorback with as much lethality as a wave serpent (or more due to BS) costs about 30% less. A raider costs about 50% for as much lethality. So is AV 12 and fast speed worth 30%? Is AV 12 vs AV 10 worth 50% more? Is fast worth 25% more? I think a base wave serpent with TL shuriken cannon should be costed at about 80 to 90 points with the cost increasing with the weapon upgrades.

Now the holofield generator - it is crap for what it does in 5th ed. - it was undercosted for what it did in 4th ed. With 5th ed meaning it now does not autoglance, the holofield should be reduced to about a 3rd of its current cost. While I used to lament being forced to take the wave field in 4th ed, now I wish I could take that as a falcon upgrade instead of a holofield. I absolutely am envious of the tau 5 pt upgrade and almost wistfully wish eldar would get off their high-tech horse and put smoke generators and searchlights on their vehicles. (Personal rant - What race is touted as the most advanced technology but can't see in the dark? The eldar.)

Don't forget transport capacities, fire points, and open topped. The Wave Serpent truly loses in comparison to most of these due to lacking fire points and assault ramp.
Serpents are dedicated transports, however, and as such they really can be dropped in price - as much as it galls me since I hate the mech-meta.
Falcons on the other hand lives and dies by how the weapons perform, and the question is whether firing both/all weapons as it is moving at cruising speed will actually solve it. Similarly the relatively weak heavy weapons are starving the Guardian squads due to lacking significant punch. Improving the basic performance of the weapons may be a round-about way of improving the performance of the Falcon, Vyper, and Guardians - although it should be said that significantly increased power in heavy weapons leads to some serious issues with Wraithlords.
With Wraithlords we see, though, that two of the current weapons is a good deal... at least in the 100pts area. Maybe the Falcons will be alright with the new Matrix?

Speaking of Searchlights... The fluff pins the Eldar helmets down to psycho/bio-mechanical marvels that increases sound, decreases noise, provides perfect audio communication, magnifies light without blanking out due to sudden sharp increases, as well as providing some serious friend or foe system.
Yes, it's decidedly odd that a mere flash-light mounted on a tank provides better augmentation (it should be noted that a flash-light increases vision only in it's cone, and practically kills it outside the cone. The trade off is such that flash-lights and searchlights in general are just plain stupid, pretty much like night-vision goggles are).

This is kinda off topic but why are night vision goggles useless?

Mahtamori wrote:Don't forget transport capacities, fire points, and open topped. The Wave Serpent truly loses in comparison to most of these due to lacking fire points and assault ramp.
Serpents are dedicated transports, however, and as such they really can be dropped in price - as much as it galls me since I hate the mech-meta.
Falcons on the other hand lives and dies by how the weapons perform, and the question is whether firing both/all weapons as it is moving at cruising speed will actually solve it. Similarly the relatively weak heavy weapons are starving the Guardian squads due to lacking significant punch. Improving the basic performance of the weapons may be a round-about way of improving the performance of the Falcon, Vyper, and Guardians - although it should be said that significantly increased power in heavy weapons leads to some serious issues with Wraithlords.
With Wraithlords we see, though, that two of the current weapons is a good deal... at least in the 100pts area. Maybe the Falcons will be alright with the new Matrix?

Speaking of Searchlights... The fluff pins the Eldar helmets down to psycho/bio-mechanical marvels that increases sound, decreases noise, provides perfect audio communication, magnifies light without blanking out due to sudden sharp increases, as well as providing some serious friend or foe system.
Yes, it's decidedly odd that a mere flash-light mounted on a tank provides better augmentation (it should be noted that a flash-light increases vision only in it's cone, and practically kills it outside the cone. The trade off is such that flash-lights and searchlights in general are just plain stupid, pretty much like night-vision goggles are).

The cost of falcons is a bit touchy but lets compare it to a fire prism.

FP = 115 cost = 1 shot out to table width range, S9 AP2 with the ability to link it into a S10 AP1 shot. BS4
Falcon = 115 cost = Plus weapons. 2 S8 shots. Awesome at killing light vehicles. Avg cost @140 BS3

My argument would be that a falcon with an EML should cost about the same as a prism AND they both should have BS 4.
So assuming Shuriken cannon Free, Scatter laser 10, EML 15, Starcannon/Brightlance 20. A base falcon should cost about 100 pts.
Agreed in the days of 3rd and 4th edition, with the addition of a holofield, you could make the arguement that a falcon for @ 200 pts was the eldar equivalent of putting a landraider on the table. (autoglance and holofield made so that your falcon almost never fired in a game but it also meant your falcon almost never died.) But 5th edition changed all that now your AV of 12 leaves you too open to penetrating hits so the value of the holofield is lessened and certainly you could be accused of playing an "old school" eldar army if you fielded 2 or 3 falcons.

Don't forget that a Land Raider's spirit allows for shooting when stunned/shaken, so the Falcon will loose out on that comparison a bit. I fully agree that the Falcon should be significantly cheaper, and your estimate sounds about right, DAaddict, although this is working under the assumption that the Fire Prism is accurately priced. What I mean is that I think that for the sake of making a fan 'dex it's a good estimate, but if GW made the 'dex for 5th edition with that cost on the Falcon+EML as well as Fire Prism, it'd probably be a bit on the expensive side. Conservative is good for fan creations.

Oriallis wrote:This is kinda off topic but why are night vision goggles useless?

Gives you tunnel vision, dampens resolution, kills your sense of vision when you remove the goggles, and they are very prone to over-exposure. They make sense in some cases, but they're not the be-all-end-all solution to seeing well in the dark, and in many if not most cases getting your eyes accustomed to the dark is better. Don't know if more modern NV has fixed the most glaring problems, though.

Some ideas:

- All Forgeworld Eldar units added

- All Aspect Warriors have Acute Senses

- As much as a I hate the GK close combat weapon bonuses the cat is out of the bag now, so maybe all 'sword' close combat weapons wielded by Aspects give +1 invulnerable save in CC, and halberd type weapons give +2 I

- Autarch to have the same stat line as an Exarch but with 2W

- As mentioned elsewhere a Warseer; an Exarch equivalent for Warlocks. Not as great a stat increase, but due to increased psychic mastery have a 3++ save and witch weapons gain rending.

- Warlocks can be taken as a standalone unit in the Elite section

- Wraith units gain "Wraith Construct"
+ FNP (on a 5+ or 6+)
+ Immunity to all grenade effects

- Wraithguard "Wraith warden" option. Swap wraith cannon for wraith glaive. Functions as per Wraithlord's wraithsword, plus inflicts instant death on a to-wound roll of a 6.

- Wraithlords can have 3 main hard points. Max 2 swords. Max 2 heavy weapons. Support battery weapons are available as a '2 slot' heavy weapon.

- EML either becomes a Reaper Launcher, or loses the Krak shell firing option (it's a bit out of place) and gains a Haywire shell instead

- Starcannon ignores cover saves (AND/OR counts as Ordnance for rolls on the vehicle damage table)

- Shuriken Catapult becomes 18". Dire Avenger catapults are twin linked.

- Reaper Range Finder: Ignores cover saves granted by speed (i.e. moving flat out), and counts as an AA mount

- Fire Dragons swap their melta guns for heat lances. A drawback in some ways, a benefit in others, but better integrated with the DE armoury and moves away from having the same weapons as the IoM. 3+ armour saves.

- Swooping Hawks swap their gun for a sniper rifle. Gain a 'grenade drop' attack if they fly over a unit in their movement phase. This one definitely needs more thought

- Warp Spider jump generator: count as jump infantry + may move 6" in the assault phase

- Each Farseer psychic powers has a passive and active mode. The active mode works as now. The passive mode is short ranged / local in effect, and is always on and always works as like Warlock psychic powers do. This does not count towards casting limitations. E.g. Fortune automatically applies to the Farseer and the unit he is attached to. A Farseer with Eldritch Storm exerts a GK Warp Quake effect.



- War walkers & support weapon platforms can be bought as a 'support detachment' for a guardian squad, in which case they do not take up a FOC slot

- Full set of Phoenix Lords

- HQ choice that is an intermediate character between an Exarch and a Phoenix Lord that has access to full range of Exarch powers and Eldar armoury.

- Avatar immune to melta, flamer, and plasma weapons. Wailing Doom: For every unsaved wound the Avatar causes in CC -1 from the LD of enemy units within 12". Counts as a psyker for purposes of wraith sight (on the basis that the Avatar would be a psychic beacon).

Splog wrote:Some ideas:

- All Forgeworld Eldar units added

I like this idea. Although... I wouldn't want to include Super Heavy tanks and Titans in regular 40k.

Splog wrote:- As much as a I hate the GK close combat weapon bonuses the cat is out of the bag now, so maybe all 'sword' close combat weapons wielded by Aspects give +1 invulnerable save in CC, and halberd type weapons give +2 I

I don't really get the huge initiative boost from a halberd. Sure, it gives you long range, but that is easily avoided and given that Eldar are described as moving so fast humans can barely follow (hence the I5 on Aspect Warriors), I would not say that they would in any way have a problem getting around a puny stick. And let's not forget that the GK codex was written by Matt Ward. I mean 2 initiative is the difference between an Imperial Guardsman and an Eldar Aspect Warrior. Even an increase of 1 sounds ridicule, seeing as one is the difference between an Imperial Guardsman and a bloody Space Marine. Just saying, the initiative intervals represent a big ing increase in reflexes.

Splog wrote:- Autarch to have the same stat line as an Exarch but with 2W

Why, oh why would an Autarch need a worse stat line? Why?

Splog wrote:- Shuriken Catapult becomes 18". Dire Avenger catapults are twin linked.

I actually like this idea a lot. It would take the fun out of a Doom/Guide Farseer + Bladestorm (by making it easier to do), but it seems more logical than merely upgrading the strength on it.

Splog wrote:- Fire Dragons swap their melta guns for heat lances. A drawback in some ways, a benefit in others, but better integrated with the DE armoury and moves away from having the same weapons as the IoM. 3+ armour saves.

What on earth is wrong with their weapons as they are now? Fire Dragons are still one of the best units in the game. Sure, as they are now they remind of human ones but there's no need to copy stuff that's already out there, Eldar or otherwise.

Splog wrote:- Each Farseer psychic powers has a passive and active mode. The active mode works as now. The passive mode is short ranged / local in effect, and is always on and always works as like Warlock psychic powers do. This does not count towards casting limitations. E.g. Fortune automatically applies to the Farseer and the unit he is attached to. A Farseer with Eldritch Storm exerts a GK Warp Quake effect.

I like this idea. I like it a lot. However, it sounds like it could have pretty overpowered potential.

Wooly wrote:

I like this idea. Although... I wouldn't want to include Super Heavy tanks and Titans in regular 40k.

Ah yes *cough*. I didn't have those sorts of units in mind. More along the lines of the Shadow Spectres, Warp Hunter, Wasp Walkers, etc.

I don't want to give a blow by blow response to disagreement/criticism of any ideas, but I thought it'd seem a bit rude to clarify the above point and not touch on some of the others. The suggested changes for the Autarch and the Fire Dragons aren't intended to be all round improvements as such, rather a theme tweaking that would also change their role somewhat.

The lesser stat line for the Autarch I see as being more appropriate. I've never seen how the background material should equate to the Autarch being so much better than an Exarch. The Autarch stat line is like a missing link between the Exarch and a Phoenix Lord and that doesn't really stack up. It feels a bit shoe-horned in to have a 'Major Hero' class generic character. The Exarch stat line is a very good one, and to my mind sufficient for the role. In current codex terms I'd see the Autarch stat change linked to a drop in points (about 55) and given extra 'strategic powers'.

Fire Dragons - yup they're great. Yup, they don't need (much) improving in battlefield utility. There is nothing wrong with them currently. But.. the melta-gun just doesn't really seem to fit with the rest of the armoury. 3rd edition moved the races to having their own distinct set of weapons. Fire Dragons got the bum end of the deal with the letdown of having Fusion Guns (which were S6 melta guns). I think the intent to give them something a bit different was a good one, but the execution was a bit duff. The Heat Lance is a ready made eldar technological addition to the eldar armoury. Giving them a Heat Lance is a way of following through with changing the Eldar armoury. Heat Lances are just as good against MEQ, but with a 50% increase of range, for a tradeoff of not causing instant death to MEQ characters. Against vehicles things are a little bit more mixed: 0-6" Melta wins; -9" Heat Lance wins; -12" Melta for AV10-13, tied for AV14; -18" Heat Lance wins (though performance is far from being super at this range..).

But.. yup. In terms of both battlefield impact, and personal interoperation, I can see why people might not like these changes! I thought them worth a punt for feedback though

If anything the aurarch needs to be improved, considering the archons of the Dark Eldar. I would want to see those 2 units duelling head to head with a fair chance. Not just the DE trouncing the Eldar.

I like the wraith warden option, lets Iyanden have a more varied selection of troops.

The guardian detachment confuses me, I'm going to take a guess here and say it's a way to convince people to use guardians in order to get access to extra heavy support units, and make the Eldar force look like a large scale engagement in general.

Still mostly confused on the heat lance thing, but I feel like I can't put in any feedback on it as I don't know the heat lance stats

The main problem with the shrinekeepers is that they suffer from the same problem phoenix lords do, being not vvery good except for their own aspect. In general I believe phoenix lords should be unit upgrades.

On a side note on HQ choices, wouldn't it be interesting to have A Solitaire HQ spec that would let you take Harleys as troops? That way clown armies would appear again.

Something to pick dissect! Yay!

Splog wrote:Some ideas:

- All Forgeworld Eldar units added

Pretty much, yes. Vypers do need a once- or twice-over due to Hornets simply being better, though I can't remember their current v3 incarnation.

- All Aspect Warriors have Acute Senses

Something that pretty much all Eldar should have, inherited from their helmets, and other visual aids.

- As much as a I hate the GK close combat weapon bonuses the cat is out of the bag now, so maybe all 'sword' close combat weapons wielded by Aspects give +1 invulnerable save in CC, and halberd type weapons give +2 I

Not certain about this one. I do hate this approach on a codex level, but I'm fine with it on a BRB level.

- Autarch to have the same stat line as an Exarch but with 2W

I'm curious, why should they receive -1BS, -1WS, -1W and -1LD? Autarchs are nearly obsolete with the statline they have.

- As mentioned elsewhere a Warseer; an Exarch equivalent for Warlocks. Not as great a stat increase, but due to increased psychic mastery have a 3++ save and witch weapons gain rending.

The risk here is to further make Autarchs obsolete. Warseers are fine, but I think they should focus on PSAs rather and leave weapons to Autarchs.

- Warlocks can be taken as a standalone unit in the Elite section

I fully support this idea.

- Wraith units gain "Wraith Construct"
+ FNP (on a 5+ or 6+)
+ Immunity to all grenade effects

Hmm... immunity to grenades. That's new. The problem with FNP is that the highly expensive wraiths have a problem with weapons that ignore FNP, not the other way around, but it can be used to further specialize them and it does make sense. It's been hashed previously, but I suppose it can be discussed again.

- Wraithguard "Wraith warden" option. Swap wraith cannon for wraith glaive. Functions as per Wraithlord's wraithsword, plus inflicts instant death on a to-wound roll of a 6.

Do you mean that it's a Powerweapon with 2D6 penetration or that it's a normal CCW that allows you to re-roll melee misses?

- Wraithlords can have 3 main hard points. Max 2 swords. Max 2 heavy weapons. Support battery weapons are available as a '2 slot' heavy weapon.

That's an interesting idea. I like it.

- EML either becomes a Reaper Launcher, or loses the Krak shell firing option (it's a bit out of place) and gains a Haywire shell instead

Again, an interesting idea. If it simply fires plasma missiles, it needs to be improved. It should be noted, though, that Star Cannons absolutely must be a cost effective anti-MEQ/MC option in that case and the Brightlance must be a very cost effective anti-vehicle.

- Starcannon ignores cover saves (AND/OR counts as Ordnance for rolls on the vehicle damage table)

I'd rather it not count as anti-tank. We need it as anti-MEQ.

- Shuriken Catapult becomes 18". Dire Avenger catapults are twin linked.

That is also an approach.

- Reaper Range Finder: Ignores cover saves granted by speed (i.e. moving flat out), and counts as an AA mount

- Fire Dragons swap their melta guns for heat lances. A drawback in some ways, a benefit in others, but better integrated with the DE armoury and moves away from having the same weapons as the IoM. 3+ armour saves.

It is not the Fire Dragons whom use the same weapons as IoM, it is IoM who use the same as Fire Dragons. Unless I am sorely mistaken, 3rd edition had IoM melta tech Gets Hot!, though this has sadly changed.

- Swooping Hawks swap their gun for a sniper rifle. Gain a 'grenade drop' attack if they fly over a unit in their movement phase. This one definitely needs more thought

As others have pointed out to me when I suggest the fly-by: they lack the movement range.

- Warp Spider jump generator: count as jump infantry + may move 6" in the assault phase

- Each Farseer psychic powers has a passive and active mode. The active mode works as now. The passive mode is short ranged / local in effect, and is always on and always works as like Warlock psychic powers do. This does not count towards casting limitations. E.g. Fortune automatically applies to the Farseer and the unit he is attached to. A Farseer with Eldritch Storm exerts a GK Warp Quake effect.

Like Wooly wrote, sounds interesting but risks being over-powered. Here's a few ways of implementing them that I can think of off the top of my head.
Fortune - Passive; The Farseer may re-roll any saves. Active; Well... as now, really.
Guide - Passive; The Farseer's weapons count as twin-linked may re-roll any rolls to hit. Active; The unit affected by the Farseer within 6" has their weapons count as twin-linked and may re-roll any rolls to hit. (Note that this is intentionally including melee hits)
Eldritch Storm - Passive; the area within 18" of the Farseer count as dangerous for units deep striking into it or if they move as jump infantry into, out of, or through this area. Active; R(inf) S5 Ap5 Assault 1, Barrage, Large Blast Marker
Mind War - Passive; the Farseers attacks count as Force Weapons. Active; Psychic Shooting Attack. Targets one enemy model in line of sight. Causes 1 wound which inflicts instant death. May only take invulnerable saves.
Doom - Passive; Any unit the Farseer is joined with may re-roll their rolls to wound in melee. Active; Well... as now, really.

- War walkers & support weapon platforms can be bought as a 'support detachment' for a guardian squad, in which case they do not take up a FOC slot

Not certain of this one. I absolutely love my War Walkers and am building an army based entirely on them.

- Full set of Phoenix Lords

- HQ choice that is an intermediate character between an Exarch and a Phoenix Lord that has access to full range of Exarch powers and Eldar armoury.

Sounds like an Autarch that's lost himself on all paths of Khaine. Goes against the fluff quite a bit. It's like a Commisar that is also a psycher.

- Avatar immune to melta, flamer, and plasma weapons. Wailing Doom: For every unsaved wound the Avatar causes in CC -1 from the LD of enemy units within 12". Counts as a psyker for purposes of wraith sight (on the basis that the Avatar would be a psychic beacon).

Makes sense, although should be noted that the Avatar, extrapolating from the latest GK FAQ, would be immune to all fire-based weapons based on their fluff - i.e. including Scorchas even though it's not on the list.

@wraith constructs: I would love to see a little individualization of the craftworlds. Now a lot of what I've been imagining of late has been the Wraithguard/Wraithlords and Iyanden. I've seen the aspect warrior Wraithlords and that gave me an idea. Iyanden uses so many wraith constructs because they don't have many fighters left. The greatest of heroes and champions are placed in the Wraithlords, so Exarchs most likely, and even in the fluff they talk about those Wraithlords being fitted out in close combat or with distance weapons depending on the personality that inhabits the Wraithlord. How about continuing that with the Wraithguard. I imagine that they would have the base aspect warriors inhabiting them. So each could be outfitted with the equipment of the aspect. Imagine a wraithguard kitted out as a striking scorpion. It would open up a pretty easily created model range that would excite people about buying Eldar. It would also help with splitting up the Eldar into craftworlds again.

Striking Scorpion wraithguard with str 6, 3-4 attacks, make them 40 points or so and they are still worth taking I think.

Howling banshee wraithguard: Power weapons that ignore armor and str 5? Yes please.

Dire avenger wraithguard: Carrying shrieker cannons instead of catapults?

Fire dragons wraithguard: Give them heavy fusion guns, think multi-melta.

Dark Reaper wraithguard: EML with the upgrades below on a mobile platform.

Swooping hawks wraithguard: jump infantry all with grenade launchers or star cannons?

Warp spider wraithguard: Teleporting wraithguard, perhaps with increased chance of rolling doubles for vanishing and either template death spinners or spinneret rifles?

Have spirit seers that can join of course. Maybe in the jump infantry you could outfit them the same for an increased cost? If like an autarch they were once in that aspect they could use the same systems again?

@Dire avenger shuriken catapults. I love the suggestion to make guardian version 18" and Dire avenger version twin linked. Makes a lot of sense and really helps fix the guardians.


@Eldar technology: It really frustrates me that the supposedly superior eldar tech is so average in comparison to IoM. For instance no multi melta? Why can't they hook up a pair of fire pikes and use them on a wraithlord or a falcon, an anti grav platform?

EML should be changed, not just frag and krak, I like the suggestion of haywire missiles, and maybe with plasma missiles that ignore cover?

Okay, I think that's it for now.

The problem i find with aspect wraiths is that it doesn't fit when you consider the fluff. Wraiths exist in an almost dreamlike state that would also probably make them incapable of the fervor required by an aspect warrior.

Plus the only concepts that I can see on a wraithguard without it looking silly are dragons and reapers. Stealthy or Fast assault doesn't fit with slow pacing constructs. A Flying wraith is just plain silly. And you'd think a guy who had spent his life exsposing himself to the warp could get a break from that in death. Really the whole problem is that this adds too much customization to wraiths when they are supposed to be last resort forces for everyone but Iyanden.

My ideas for the eldar codex are

1. All Eldar tanks should be BS4 (Maybe not the Vyper and the War Walker)

2. Guardians should be cheaper 6pts per model i think is resonable but 8? too much

3. Prism cannons, Brightlances and Shadow specres guns should be AP1

4. Shadow specres standard guns should be 18" no 12"

5. Eldrich Storm needs a more destructive profile (S5 AP4 Large blast)

Ridealgh wrote:My ideas for the eldar codex are

1. All Eldar tanks should be BS4 (Maybe not the Vyper and the War Walker)

2. Guardians should be cheaper 6pts per model i think is resonable but 8? too much

3. Prism cannons, Brightlances and Shadow specres guns should be AP1

4. Shadow specres standard guns should be 18" no 12"

5. Eldrich Storm needs a more destructive profile (S5 AP4 Large blast)

1. Agreed - make the vyper an attack bike (W2 T4 instead of AV10 open topped)
2. This goes around the argument of avoiding the eldar hoard army. (6x 20 guardian armies) I like the proposed limits on guardians, the idea that guardians don't take up FOC slots but require other selections, etc.
3. BL should not be AP 1 however I could accept them being S9. (Better than a dark lance but not technically different.) I could easily accept prisms being native AP1 - that would provide them with a true AT ability.
4. Shadow spectres - not sure what they are armed with but it sounds like we are talking a fast attack anti-tank unit. I think AP2 sounds good enough or we are going to see these instead of fire dragons.
5. Agreed - I would like to proliferate the use of the dangerous terrain modifier. So the next time a targeted unit or vehicle moves, it has to make a dangerous terrain role.

As far as the heat lance vs the melta gun for fire dragons - I understand and do like it. Giving them range is important and 18" range makes sense. Also leaving the firepike as S8 but adding the lance rules would make the desire to have an exarch greater.

Shadow Spectres have prism rifles don't they? Not sure what those do though, pretty sure they're jet pack heavy support units.

I'm not sure Wave Serpants need BS 4 with twin-linked weapons, they're already some of the best dedicated transports around even if they are pretty exspensive.

The problem with increasing Bright Lance strength is that it leaves Dark Lances behind, the only way I see to justify this is if while DE can take more lances (Squad leader weapons, and Ravagers of course) Eldar have better ones.
It also completely outmatches las cannons as well.

I can't make a decision on heat lances vs fusion guns until I know what the precise difference is.

Oriallis wrote:Shadow Spectres have prism rifles don't they? Not sure what those do though, pretty sure they're jet pack heavy support units.

Rules here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/S/shadow-spectres.pdf

Rumoured to be changing before publication, including a range increase.

FYI they do this.
In my opinion vastly inferior to Fire Dragons due to all the same problems as with Dark Reapers. 35pts for T3 4+ unit is just strange. 202 points for a single S10 AP2 shot is way too much.
The idea is very cool but the execution is lacking.
Edit: Damn you Splog

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oriallis wrote:Shadow Spectres have prism rifles don't they? Not sure what those do though, pretty sure they're jet pack heavy support units.

I'm not sure Wave Serpants need BS 4 with twin-linked weapons, they're already some of the best dedicated transports around even if they are pretty exspensive.

The problem with increasing Bright Lance strength is that it leaves Dark Lances behind, the only way I see to justify this is if while DE can take more lances (Squad leader weapons, and Ravagers of course) Eldar have better ones.
It also completely outmatches las cannons as well.

I can't make a decision on heat lances vs fusion guns until I know what the precise difference is.

prism rifles are 12" S7 AP3 which i think is amazing but it's too short range as i said earlier. 18" would be much better.

As for the Wave serpent being TL i still think BS4 would help it alot. It happens too often that you miss once and then miss again.

In terms of brightlances i think the AP1 is better than having more strength. It doen't leave the Dark lance behind but it has that little extra oomph and it kinda would e AP1 considering it's a specifice AT weapon.

Stick to fusion guns.

I think i read somewhere that tl BS 3 hits more often than flat BS 4

Oriallis wrote:I think i read somewhere that tl BS 3 hits more often than flat BS 4

It does. TL BS3 is 75%. Normal BS4 is 66,(6)%.

I thought so, that's why I always figured Wave Serpents didn't need BS 4.

Aha, Oriallis did what I didn't dare do.

Pre-emptively: read the bold part for TL/DR

I've been thinking about the use of Guardians and how it essentially do not quite fit the Eldar way of life (bear with me, it is actually to do with ballistics skill). Essentially, Khaine had his bloody hand in the making of the Eldar soul and psyche, and as such there is always bloodlust dormant within all Eldar. To deal with this bloodlust, the Craftworld Eldar formed the path of the warrior (prior to the Fall, citizens of the Eldar Empire were free to indulge in the cravings of their soul, and many were inevitably lost to Khaine) which teaches the donning of the war mask.
The war mask can be removed, and it can be put away completely, but it is knowledge that stay with each Eldar after he has tread the path, just like a former master artist will reflect on aesthetics and inevitably follow a slightly different line of thought should they tread a more practical path.
Craftworld Eldar who have not donned the war mask risk their soul should they be exposed unprotected to the horrors of war - and no I do not say they would go mad or craven, it is far more likely they will succumb to the darkness and anger since the Eldar soul is not a gentle fragile thing like a human soul generally is.

And now to the more hands on thing of my musing: why are Guardians a) considered an ad hoc militia and b) significantly worse than Aspect Warriors?
Ad hoc militia would doom a significant portion of the craftworld's population to join the path of the warrior or outcast - essentially a large scale engagement where Guardians are necessitated would push a craftworld's population to an extremely unbalanced point towards martial. This would further question the sanity in having Guardians represent Eldar bread-and-butter troop choices.

In short, the basic WS/BS of a Guardian ought to be 4. Aspect Warriors are a martial match to their dark cousins, especially the case of Striking Scorpions versus Incubus, and as such merits a +1 in their BS or WS depending on aspect.
However, the pilots inside the Eldar skimmers aren't necessarily Guardians or even Aspect Warriors, but rather just that - pilots. It is entirely conceivable that the pilot inside a Wave Serpent takes no part in the actual gunnery of his vehicle, and he is further insulated from battle by his vehicle.
As such, proposition:
Vyper, Hornet, Wave Serpent - BS 3
Walkers, Falcon hulls, Guardians, Rangers - WS/BS 4
Banshees, Scorpions, Spears - WS 5 BS 4
Dragons, Hawks, Reapers - WS 4 BS 5
Avengers and Spiders are an odd bunch. Spiders have the armour for close combat and are constantly portrayed as a melee/assault unit (see DOW2 intro). Avengers are misrepresented by large, they are the versatile aspect (read the codex!) representing Khaine in his pure warfield aspect and capable of adapting to their surroundings, but oddly enough it feels like Avengers are the Aspect Warrior least receptive to change of all aspects.

Oh, and Eagle Pilot could be a vehicle upgrade to increase BS by +1.

To avoid a wall of text, I'll save heavy weapons for later, but I'll say this much: Eldar have three weapons which do the same thing, one weapon which is fine but expensive, and one weapon which doesn't do it's job at all.
Oh, and I do think that Pulse Laser should be available as a general weapon as it fills a gap on the high-end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. with higher over-all BS, the Eldar army's reliance on Farseers become that much smaller - especially since they're not able to field volume of fire. A Farseer with Guide would become a boon, not a necessity for fielding War Walkers, for instance.

My only question on that is what does that make the stat line for Exarch's like? What is the Klaivex (or whatever Incubi squad leaders are called) stat line? It just seems a tad odd to have squad leaders with 6s on their statline. The other thing is this stat line makes Aspect Warriors overall better than standard Space Marines, not that I'm saying this a bad thing just that it seems unlikely.

PS: I mostly posted to try and save this thread from plunging towards extinction. But thank you for your appreciation.

In terms of skills (weapon or ballistic) an Aspect Warrior should be better than a Space Marine. They spend times as long or longer than a SM lives training for their specific aspect of warfare, which is also a basic fundamental state of the Eldar mind, accessed via the war mask.

Well, the Incubus stat-line is simply +1BS compared with Scorpions (mandiblasters is worked into their basic stats, and I think both have weapons that give +1S, though not sure on the last). Granted, Incubus have power weapons.

Mandaloryn, Exarchs it's an odd relationship when reading the fluff, Path of the Warrior especially, where the Aspect Warriors are trained like human Black Ops equivalent and Exarchs are described like demi-gods (with Phoenix Lords being proper gods).

Has heavy weaepons been ironed out?

My thoughts on aspect warriors: This is a compilation of discussions on all three versions of this forum as well as a few biases that I have.

All aspect warriors are supposed to be the epitome of the warrior way. Some variation on that theme but warrior specialists.

WS/BS 4 They are good but they should not be epic good therefore 4.
I 6 Yea! We are eldar and athletes to boot.
S/T 3 W 1 Booh! We are still eldar
Ld 9 We are strongest of the strong and bravest of the brave but we are not fools
either.
A:2 Like DE trueborn or hell brides, like any marine veteran we are good at punching. Albeit at strength 3, we don’t do much without some enhancements.
Exarchs are that much more impressive with +1 to WS, BS, Ld and A.

Dire Avenger: Catapult, Fleet Exarch: Bladestorm and Defend, Options as today.
(I like the idea of TL DA cats and then upgrading guardians to the same 18” A2 range.)

Howling Banshee: Pistol, PW & Mask Exarch: Same optins as today, Acrobatic and War
Shout.
Mask gives them always strike first ability
Acrobatic: The HB are so nimble on their feet, they are not hindered by exiting a moving vehicle, therefore they can charge on the turn they disembark.
War Shout: Ld Test – this grants HB furious resolve giving them +1 S and reroll to hits on the charge. (More effective than current rendition and reduces dependency on doomseer)


Striking Scorpion: Pistol, Chainsword & Mandiblaster Exarch: Stealth & Shadow, Same options as today.
Mandiblaster +1 A and effects like offensive grenades.

Stealth: 3d6 for moving through difficult/dangerous terrain.
Shadow: +2 to all cover saves.

Warp Spider: Spinnerette, Warp Pack Exarch: Same options as today, Hit & Run, Web sight.
Spinnerette: S6 A1 12” Rending and causes opponent to make dangerous terrain test on next move. If assaulted, the unit must immediately check for dangerous terrain.
Warp Pack: Jump Move plus 2d6 move in assault phase (doubles still kills)
H &R Grants H & R
Web sight: Allows Spiders to deep strike with 1d6 scatter.

Swooping Hawk: Haywire Blaster, Wings Exarch: Options to be modified to work with troop choice. Skyleap, Death from Above

Haywire blaster to make them a vehicle harasser rather than a GEQ troop killer (at which they sucked.)

Wings: Reroll scatter on deep strike. 5++ from erratic flight pattern – shooting only.

Skyleap: Instead of standard movement, hawks can be picked up and deep strike anywhere on the board.
Death from above: Due to grenade launchers and swooping from the sky, on the charge SH get double strength on the charge.

Fire Dragons: Heat Lance, Melta Bomb Exarch: Tank Hunter, Crack Shot Same options as before.
Heat Lance: Melta 18” A1 S6 AP1 (Fire Pike: Melta + Lance 18” A1 S8 AP1)
(This was done to give dragons a tad more range in hopes of reducing their kamikaze role. Note between Tank Hunter and Lance they should actually be more lethal than today.)

Crack Shot: Unit ignores cover saves.
Tank Hunter: +1 S for penetrating vehicles.

Shining Spears: 3+, Laser Lance, PW, Bike, FNP Exarch: Same options as today, Hit & Run, Tip of the Spear

Laser Lance and PW – Granted PW to make them not a one hit wonder still should be awesome on the charge but not an instant kill if the unit doesn’t break on the charge.
Feel No Pain: Could go with Invulnerable save but I thought this would give them much needed resiliency to being fired on. Won’t help against krak missiles or meltas though.
Bike: All have Skilled Rider bonus so can reroll dangerous terrain tests.

Hit & Run: Gives H&R ability to squad.
Tip of the Spear: All Bikes get their attacks no matter what even if killed when they charge.

OOPS! Forgot the Dark Reaper

Reaper Launcher, S&P Exarch: Same options as today, Fast Shot & Crack Shot

Reaper Launcher: 36" Hvy 1 S7 AP3 - or - 36" Hvy 1 S4 AP4 (pinning) Small Blast
(This done to make Reapers more effective against vehicles while preserving the anti-personnel role)

Fast Shot: +1 ROF
Crack Shot: Ignore cover.

The Exarch grants this role to the squad, but only one per turn.

Comments in red

DAaddict wrote:My thoughts on aspect warriors: This is a compilation of discussions on all three versions of this forum as well as a few biases that I have.

All aspect warriors are supposed to be the epitome of the warrior way. Some variation on that theme but warrior specialists.

WS/BS 4 They are good but they should not be epic good therefore 4.
I 6 Yea! We are eldar and athletes to boot.
S/T 3 W 1 Booh! We are still eldar
Ld 9 We are strongest of the strong and bravest of the brave but we are not fools
either.
A:2 Like DE trueborn or hell brides, like any marine veteran we are good at punching. Albeit at strength 3, we don’t do much without some enhancements.
Exarchs are that much more impressive with +1 to WS, BS, Ld and A.

Dire Avenger: Catapult, Fleet Exarch: Bladestorm and Defend, Options as today.
(I like the idea of TL DA cats and then upgrading guardians to the same 18” A2 range.)

I think they should have pistol and ccw, if only to be able to counter chargea weak squad after bladestorming and putting defend to good use

Howling Banshee: Pistol, PW & Mask Exarch: Same optins as today, Acrobatic and War
Shout.
Mask gives them always strike first ability
Acrobatic: The HB are so nimble on their feet, they are not hindered by exiting a moving vehicle, therefore they can charge on the turn they disembark.
War Shout: Ld Test – this grants HB furious resolve giving them +1 S and reroll to hits on the charge. (More effective than current rendition and reduces dependency on doomseer)

I agree to this version of War shout, especially the Ld test rather then morale

Striking Scorpion: Pistol, Chainsword & Mandiblaster Exarch: Stealth & Shadow, Same options as today.
Mandiblaster +1 A and effects like offensive grenades.

Stealth: 3d6 for moving through difficult/dangerous terrain.
Shadow: +2 to all cover saves.

would prefer that they could still infiltrate, preferably in a ymargl genestealer fashion

Warp Spider: Spinnerette, Warp Pack Exarch: Same options as today, Hit & Run, Web sight.
Spinnerette: S6 A1 12” Rending and causes opponent to make dangerous terrain test on next move. If assaulted, the unit must immediately check for dangerous terrain.
Warp Pack: Jump Move plus 2d6 move in assault phase (doubles still kills)
H &R Grants H & R
Web sight: Allows Spiders to deep strike with 1d6 scatter.

spinnarette seems very overpowered, st 6, ap 1, rending, and dangerous terrain? I think the AP- would be best, rending would lessen its immpediment considerably

Swooping Hawk: Haywire Blaster, Wings Exarch: Options to be modified to work with troop choice. Skyleap, Death from Above

Haywire blaster to make them a vehicle harasser rather than a GEQ troop killer (at which they sucked.)

Wings: Reroll scatter on deep strike. 5++ from erratic flight pattern – shooting only.

Skyleap: Instead of standard movement, hawks can be picked up and deep strike anywhere on the board.
Death from above: Due to grenade launchers and swooping from the sky, on the charge SH get double strength on the charge.

Death from above seems like a poor excuse to make them an assault unit, I wouldn't use them this way, also this skyleap seems very overpowered

Fire Dragons: Heat Lance, Melta Bomb Exarch: Tank Hunter, Crack Shot Same options as before.
Heat Lance: Melta 18” A1 S6 AP1 (Fire Pike: Melta + Lance 18” A1 S8 AP1)
(This was done to give dragons a tad more range in hopes of reducing their kamikaze role. Note between Tank Hunter and Lance they should actually be more lethal than today.)

Crack Shot: Unit ignores cover saves.
Tank Hunter: +1 S for penetrating vehicles.

I humbly give my support for heat lance dragons, extra range and lance beats str 8 in my book, especially when the melta does so much of the work

Shining Spears: 3+, Laser Lance, PW, Bike, FNP Exarch: Same options as today, Hit & Run, Tip of the Spear

Laser Lance and PW – Granted PW to make them not a one hit wonder still should be awesome on the charge but not an instant kill if the unit doesn’t break on the charge.
Feel No Pain: Could go with Invulnerable save but I thought this would give them much needed resiliency to being fired on. Won’t help against krak missiles or meltas though.
Bike: All have Skilled Rider bonus so can reroll dangerous terrain tests.

Hit & Run: Gives H&R ability to squad.
Tip of the Spear: All Bikes get their attacks no matter what even if killed when they charge.

not sure if I understand Tip of the Spear, and I'd rather they'd just have a 12" assault range, FNP should let them survive to retreat but I think there should be a reason they're so resilent, specialized wraithbone shields perhaps?

OOPS! Forgot the Dark Reaper

Reaper Launcher, S&P Exarch: Same options as today, Fast Shot & Crack Shot

Reaper Launcher: 36" Hvy 1 S7 AP3 - or - 36" Hvy 1 S4 AP4 (pinning) Small Blast
(This done to make Reapers more effective against vehicles while preserving the anti-personnel role)

Fast Shot: +1 ROF
Crack Shot: Ignore cover.

The Exarch grants this role to the squad, but only one per turn.

the sheer number of small blasts could really slow down the game, I'd prefer a str 5 ap 3 pinning missle, much like their old ones, to preserve their anti MEQ role, of course the real treat is the exarch learning to share his powers with his squad, selfish exarch...

Having a weapon with blast for an entire squad wouldn't be good, no, especially since they roll separately.

---

Here's a small (read: large) thought: No Guardians.

Elites:
Scorpions
Dragons
Clowns
Wraith

Troops:
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Banshees (borrowing from Dawn of War 2)
<Jetbike Dire Avengers>ish

Fast:
Hawks
Hornets
Spears
Spiders

Heavy:
Prism / Spinner / Hunter
Lords
Walkers
Reapers

Transports:
Serpents
Falcons

All models with BS3, except the Serpent (which doesn't have a gunner) has their BS increased to 4.
Obsolete models: Guardians, Guardian platforms, Guardian support platforms, Vypers.
Guardians (with extreme platform density) can be re-used as a heavy slot.

Comments in Black

Oriallis wrote:Comments in red

I think they should have pistol and ccw, if only to be able to counter chargea weak squad after bladestorming and putting defend to good use
Remember that their base attacks is 2 so they have that improvement already - do you want them to go to 3 base attacks?

I agree to this version of War shout, especially the Ld test rather then morale
Agreed - they need some benefit and the current version is devastating but rarely impactful

would prefer that they could still infiltrate, preferably in a ymargl genestealer fashion
Forgot that under the Stealth option - they should have infiltrate or ymargl style infiltrate

spinnarette seems very overpowered, st 6, ap 1, rending, and dangerous terrain? I think the AP- would be best, rending would lessen its immpediment considerably
Reducing the ROF to 1 seems like a balance for adding the rending and dangerous terrain rules. I just think that this, along with the HWP spinnerettes should have that dangerous terrain rule of the
vehicle added to it.

Death from above seems like a poor excuse to make them an assault unit, I wouldn't use them this way, also this skyleap seems very overpowered
I agree it doesn't directly support the units base function of vehicle harassment but it also gives them a subsidary role. (Don't come near to a SH unit with an undermanned squad or you could be facing a lot of S6 CC attacks at a relatively high initiative.)

I humbly give my support for heat lance dragons, extra range and lance beats str 8 in my book, especially when the melta does so much of the work
Just to emphasize, a heat lance with tank hunter is going S7 AP1 with a lethal range of 9". That is going to make fire dragons a nasty average of 14 armor pen with a maximum of facing AV 12 due to lance rules. This improves performance versus a melta gun with S8 AP1 and a lethal range of 6" with an average of 15 armor pen facing an AV of 14.

not sure if I understand Tip of the Spear, and I'd rather they'd just have a 12" assault range, FNP should let them survive to retreat but I think there should be a reason they're so resilent, specialized wraithbone shields perhaps?
The purpose is to allow them the ability to attack units in terrain without giving them grenades to allow initiative based attacks. Still we are talking a unit of 5 dealing out 15 S6(or 8 in case of the Exarch)
attacks that will hit albeit if you charge them against 10 termies in terrain, you may devastate the termies but I will almost guarantee that your spears are going to be dead.

the sheer number of small blasts could really slow down the game, I'd prefer a str 5 ap 3 pinning missle, much like their old ones, to preserve their anti MEQ role, of course the real treat is the exarch learning to share his powers with his squad, selfish exarch...
I just figured that a maximum unit size of 5 with quick fire results in 10 templates, it is not that much slower than watching 3 long fangs unload frag missiles at a target. IMO, it is not a big slow down to the game if someone knows what they are doing with mass frags. So I figure after 1 or 2 games, an eldar playing reapers is going to be fairly organized.

Mahtamori wrote:Having a weapon with blast for an entire squad wouldn't be good, no, especially since they roll separately.

---

Here's a small (read: large) thought: No Guardians.

Elites:
Scorpions
Dragons
Clowns
Wraith

Troops:
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Banshees (borrowing from Dawn of War 2)
<Jetbike Dire Avengers>ish

Fast:
Hawks
Hornets
Spears
Spiders

Heavy:
Prism / Spinner / Hunter
Lords
Walkers
Reapers

Transports:
Serpents
Falcons

All models with BS3, except the Serpent (which doesn't have a gunner) has their BS increased to 4.
Obsolete models: Guardians, Guardian platforms, Guardian support platforms, Vypers.
Guardians (with extreme platform density) can be re-used as a heavy slot.

I disagree, while Guardians have their problems I don't think they should become obsolete. Where does that leave Ulthwe' and other aspect light craftworlds? What they need is something that greatly differentiates them from Dire Avengers. I believe the answer would be to emphasize the Heavy weapon aspect, being able to hold home objectives well. In essense a more defensive troop to contrast the highly offensive nature of most Eldar forces. Also Guardian Jetbikes and Vypers shouldn't have to suffer for Guardian's poor performance.

As far as the mass small blast templates... I will submit that currently SW players swear by playing 3 long fang squads with ML. Sure they can fire krak but quite often the right call is to drop frag missiles. This results in 15 dice rolls for scatter. I have seen people do this quite quickly and efficiently.
1. Declare the target and that you are firing frags.
2. Roll 2d6 + scatter dice. About 50% will be on target and most situations, if it scatters more than 2" you know it will be a miss. So roll of of 6 or less and scatter or any roll and on target roll and you cause casualties. Total them up and roll. I have seen long fangs do this in about a minute, I am guessing that - at worst - in 2 minutes, an eldar can figure out what is happening with 5 DR pretty quick.

The other thing is you have the option of quick firing S7 AP3 shots. I am betting that except for hoards and terminators (2+ save) units, the DR player is going to take his 10 S7 AP3 direct fire shots instead of taking the chance firing 10 S4 blast templates that then have to get through 3+ armor saves.

Oriallis: Oh, Vypers fall on their own poor performance*, but to me the problem with Guardians goes deeper than that. In a standard, non-apocalypse, force Eldar wouldn't use Guardians - unless they are Ulthwé Black Guardians, which aren't normal Guardians by any means - so why are they three of five troop choices?
One must also remember that Eldar craftworlds are vastly different to each other, even more so than Space Marine chapters. The vanilla codex has a distinct Ulthwé feel to it. You wouldn't ever find Biel-Tan organized in such a way, and it's a chore to make a proper Saim-Hann army (whom are hardly "craftworld" Eldar at all when it comes to army organization, as far as I can understand).
In fluff I can only think of one craftworld that'd not have a large amount of shrines, and that craftworld would still not field Guardians (they'd stick their Guardians in Falcons or Phantoms). Actually there's one more craftworld with a vast amount of active Guardians, but that craftworld is currently trying to reach a different galaxy and is not close enough for anything to attack it.
* The real reason I suggested obsoleting Vypers was because they perform so poorly and that the Hornet strictly conceptually is more Craftworld Eldar. The Vyper is too lightly armoured to be Craftworld and it is too lightly armed to be Eldar of any type.

DAaddict: Having them use blast templates has one additional merit in that it is easier to alter how they shoot. You can conceivably make an Exarch ability which allows the squad to fire Barrage - or going back to Mk1 thread have Swooping Hawks able to direct their fire (i.e. indirect fire in Swooping Hawks' field of view).
As you say, a large portion of the shots will be direct hits (55.6% of the shots will scatter 1" or more).
Here's a thought: The Exarch's weapon option has a weapon which allows Exarch to fire Barrage - why not let the squad be able to somehow tag along with this?

Still problems of the fact that one unit of Dark Reapers can fire more shots with fast shot then 9 Long fangs can. I don't know maybe I just don't like blasts as a weapon for eintire units.

Wouldn't that be a problem with Fast Shot (which would cost what? 50? 70?) rather than with the blast weapons?

Well if you operate that there is one and only one ability that a DR exarch can pass along to his unit, then you have
5 indirect blast templates (barrage ability) or 10 direct blasts (quick shot ability) or 10 AP rounds using quick shot.
Perhaps get rid of the crack shot ability and replace it with the barrage capability.

5 blast templates is -ahem- exactly what a long fang squad can do.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Oriallis: Oh, Vypers fall on their own poor performance*, but to me the problem with Guardians goes deeper than that. In a standard, non-apocalypse, force Eldar wouldn't use Guardians - unless they are Ulthwé Black Guardians, which aren't normal Guardians by any means - so why are they three of five troop choices?
One must also remember that Eldar craftworlds are vastly different to each other, even more so than Space Marine chapters. The vanilla codex has a distinct Ulthwé feel to it. You wouldn't ever find Biel-Tan organized in such a way, and it's a chore to make a proper Saim-Hann army (whom are hardly "craftworld" Eldar at all when it comes to army organization, as far as I can understand).
In fluff I can only think of one craftworld that'd not have a large amount of shrines, and that craftworld would still not field Guardians (they'd stick their Guardians in Falcons or Phantoms). Actually there's one more craftworld with a vast amount of active Guardians, but that craftworld is currently trying to reach a different galaxy and is not close enough for anything to attack it.
* The real reason I suggested obsoleting Vypers was because they perform so poorly and that the Hornet strictly conceptually is more Craftworld Eldar. The Vyper is too lightly armoured to be Craftworld and it is too lightly armed to be Eldar of any type.

DAaddict: Having them use blast templates has one additional merit in that it is easier to alter how they shoot. You can conceivably make an Exarch ability which allows the squad to fire Barrage - or going back to Mk1 thread have Swooping Hawks able to direct their fire (i.e. indirect fire in Swooping Hawks' field of view).
As you say, a large portion of the shots will be direct hits (55.6% of the shots will scatter 1" or more).
Here's a thought: The Exarch's weapon option has a weapon which allows Exarch to fire Barrage - why not let the squad be able to somehow tag along with this?

My problem with dropping vypers is I use them in my saim-hann army. Bikes and vypers. Sure vypers suck compared to war walkers but they do offer some small advantages - they can move 12". They can't be tied down in close combat. I don't mind paying a premium for them (10pts per) and giving up 1 S6 shot vs war walkers.

I guess what I would like to see would be to make them an attack bike with 2 wounds. Sure it means they can be tied up in close combat again but if you give them the jet bike move and bikes movement rather than the vehicle movement, that means 12" movement unload 7 S6 shots and then withdraw 6". Convert a holofield into an invulnerable save for them and they will be quite survivable AND - more importantly - a useful addition to the army.

Yeah Vypers suck as a vehicle but if they were a heavy jetbike they might be able to do better.

I'm still not quite happy with just ditching Guardians altogether, they still just feel right for some reason. But I'm sure lots of people would disagree with me.

I think it would make sense to do away with them. Traditionally, Guardians are only called upon in times of great need, which I don't really think is represented outside of Apocolypse. Otherwise they rely on their Aspect Warriors and war machines to do the fighting.

As for the Black Guardians, why not just have them as a unit unlocked by taking the Ulthwe special character?

This requires a lot of thought.
1) We are killing a model range. *Generally something that a modelling company is loathe to do.*

2) They are somewhat dated but can still be useful.

3) They are the basis for all the BS 3 eldar stuff out there. Without them, my arguement would be all eldar stuff remaining should go to BS4.

4) Again, the basis of EJB. Unless you are proposing to kill them also - in which case I vote absolutely no being a Saim-Hann player.

However, I can accept removal of guardians through making them non-FOC troop choices and or non-FOC heavy choices. In other words say that you can add a 5-man guardian squad with a platform and they still count as troop choices as far as controlling objectives but they never count in the FOC. The other rule would be limiting the number of guardian "squads" that you can field to 1 per other slot used. So say you have an army of 3 fire dragons and 4 dire avengers with 3 fire prisms - that means you cannot field more than 10 guardian squads.

You want larger squads? Make that as a qualification of having a warlock leader that can allow up to 4 "squads" to band together. Perhaps - like wolf guard - make a person pull them from a warlock council.
Want heavy support? Same principle but once a heavy platform, you give up the ability to control an objective.

Then make the Ulthwe SC unlock the ability of guardians filling out FOC charts plus allow them to form squads of 5 to 20.

The "add-on" nature of small guardians gives the eldar the advantage of extra troop choices but at the cost of also giving you cheap extra kill points.

I have a few ideas for the Eldar that I've been kicking around for awhile. Hopefully no one's mentioned these as I haven't read the whole thread.

Better Fleet:
A general fix to a number of problems would be allowing any Eldar model or unit with Fleet to shoot and run in the same turn. You can leave the shuriken catapult and fusion gun at 12" range, but now Guardians and Fire Dragons would be able to kite more effectively - move into shooting range, shoot, then run back out of shooting range. This also increases the hitting power of units like Banshees slightly, as they can shoot, run, and charge all in one turn. Unique, appropriate, and hopefully effective.

Guardian upgrade characters:
Instead of being useless meat shields, turn Guardians into defensive powerhouses, but through interesting abilities or upgrade characters rather than stat increases. When you get down to it, the Guardians' primary role is defending the Craftworld in time of great need, so they should be uniquely equipped to defend ground (which ends up making them more effective for camping objectives in game). Specifically I was thinking of allowing Guardians to take characters besides just warlocks. Say for every 5 guardians they can take 1 upgrade character or support platform, picking from warlocks (add more of a leadership/close combat defense emphasis than now), Bonesingers (something like reinforcing terrain for better cover saves, akin to techmarines?), Healers (something more creative than FnP hopefully), etc. People could come up with better options, or take a different approach entirely, but Guardians really need to be useful for holding ground without just buffing their statlines.

Edit:
I also like DAaddict's idea about limiting Guardians. Eldar in general shouldn't be spamming guardians, even on jetbikes, unless you specifically unlock an Ulthwe or Siam Hann build by whatever means. So one guardian or jetbike unit per Aspect unit should do the trick. While we're at it, make Storm Guardians 0-1 without some other unlock (Ulthwe again or whatever). Personally I don't see generic Eldar forces sending their citizen-soldiers charging poorly armed and armored into hand to hand combat on a regular basis.

I think either of the above suggestions for guardians would be good, anything but just outright ditching them, it just doesn't feel right in my mind.

What I think is best is to keep the guardian jetbikes the same, make guardian defenders troops but not taking up a slot (so you must take two other troop squads) and get them more weapon platforms - one small for each five gaurdians, the tenth and twentieth can instead be a larger (d-cannon style). Storms I never use so i don't know how they should be, but I don't find them very fluffy except in ulthwé and similar CW:s.

But I agree they should remain.

To refine my post a little, here's how I would envision the Guardians playing out using the upgrade character idea. Note that basic guardians should be reduced in cost by a point or two, since they really do suck and I don't suggest changing them per se.

So you have a squad of 15 guardians. This means you get three upgrades. You could max out on weapon platforms (for a total of 3) which gives the squad some actual bite, but leaves it ready to be swept away by a slight breeze. You also have the option of taking upgrade characters in place of any or all of your weapon platforms, reducing your ability to deal damage, but increasing the durability of the unit. No more than one each of any type - Warlock, Healer, or Bonesinger - at least that's all I've thought of so far.

The Warlock's options would be changed up a bit to make them more useful for defense. Re-rolling failed Ld can stay the same. Conceal should cause a night sight test when being shot at, as the 5+ cover save kind of overlaps with the Bonesinger. The flame template option is fine, but I'd like to be able to fire it in the turn an opponent charges the unit. Place the template after assault moves are finished, touching the Warlock, and ignore hits on friendly models. Sort of a close-in defense weapon.

The Bonesinger (or a different name, since I guess I'm not talking about shaping wraithbone) would essentially be a terrain manipulator. A few options I could think of would be path clearing, where maybe dangerous terrain is only difficult, making enemy assaults test for difficult terrain (or make difficult terrain dangerous for them), or reinforcing cover, where as long as the unit stays still, they receive +1 cover save, or a 6+ in the open.

The Healer (definitely needs a good name) could have options like ensuring the safety of spirit stones or somesuch, thereby reducing any negative leadership modifiers after losing close combat. They could also give FnP, although I would prefer a We'll Be Back type rule, were as long as the unit still has some guardians, and the Healer isn't in base to base, dead guardians come back on a 6+ at the end of the turn.


Those are my thoughts, I know it's a bit out of left field, but I'd be much more likely to use Guardians if they could actually be geared to a role, even if it's a very generic one (stand here and don't die).

I like the idea of Guardian upgrade characters, although I'd say more that they would be guardians (no pun intended) for the characters they are escorting. However, I would personally love to see Warlocks buffed up to real, destructive, psychers and dropped into a 3-for-1 Elite slot so you could dump them in whatever squad you wished. Sort of like a Rune Priest on Apothecary level that hurts people.

DAaddict wrote:My problem with dropping vypers is I use them in my saim-hann army. Bikes and vypers. Sure vypers suck compared to war walkers but they do offer some small advantages - they can move 12". They can't be tied down in close combat. I don't mind paying a premium for them (10pts per) and giving up 1 S6 shot vs war walkers.

I guess what I would like to see would be to make them an attack bike with 2 wounds. Sure it means they can be tied up in close combat again but if you give them the jet bike move and bikes movement rather than the vehicle movement, that means 12" movement unload 7 S6 shots and then withdraw 6". Convert a holofield into an invulnerable save for them and they will be quite survivable AND - more importantly - a useful addition to the army.

I stealthily added Hornets as their replacement, but yes - there's nothing wrong with Vypers as a model or concept as such, only their performance. The Hornet easily replaces a Vyper (realistically), but a Vyper sort of depicts the level of protection one could expect Eldar to house Eldar non-warriors into when riding into battle. The main point with having them Jetbikes is (1) fire-and-move and (2) increased fire power, able to fire both turret and under-slung regardless of armament (since they are two on the bike). As Jetbikes they are both more and less vulnerable in that they now have a saving throw, different cover rules, and can be tied down (or protected by) melee.

Warlocks in that form could be interesting, if they had a significant buff (They would difinately need a larger selection of options, including wargear and Psychic powers) It would also make Psychic support much more common for Eldar (for a race that are all latent psykers they always seemed rather sparse to me) Maybe however instead of putting them as an elite option which would make for even more competition they should stick as HQ taken with Farseers, only instead of a Seer Council they can be spread around the army as support as you suggested.

As far as Guardians are concerned I like the idea of small non FOC troops providing heavy weapon support and camping objectives. My only issue is how to make Ulthwe's Black Guardians more competent. Maybe borrowing from some examples of fluff (I'm not sure what novel this is from) they could be equipped with Aspect Warrior gear instead of Weapon Platforms (This would make them able to immitate alot of the roles of Aspect Warriors, almost like poorman's aspect Warriors).

Possible thought, regular Guardians act in the weapon platform role and do not take up the FOC slots, while these more competent Guardians (Who I'd imagine were formerly Aspect Warriors, unlike the regular Guardians) can be taken as troop choices.

Wow that was a longer post than I thought it was going to be, but whatever. Thoughts?

A possible way to make guardians both FOC free and only usable for defense.

Make them only scoring for your side of the table. They don't count as troops once they cross the halfway point as pertains to capturing objectives.

The Ulthwe black guardians could be unique in that they would be able to capture objectives on the other side of the table and perhaps have a +1 to BS when defender guardians or +1 WS if they are storm guardians.

That sounds quite interesting, both what Oriallis and seaphoenix said. The problem with black guardians is what would alow you to take them. Eldrad? A choice of various army themes i.e. craftworlds? Autarch stratagem?

I think Warlocks in Elites is a terrible idea, unless a Farseer makes them Troops or HQ. Space Wolves spam Long Fangs, so their Elites section is empty. Eldar spam Fire Dragons, so theirs is not.

Eldar spam Fire Dragons because Bright Lances cost about twice as much as they should and Eldar in general do not have any S10 weapons worth mention. During 3rd edition, Fire Dragons were the same at +1 point cost, but they weren't ever taken because tank spam wasn't an issue and the few Bright Lances you took could deal with the tank threats you faced.
Now that you can get TANKS as dedicated transports, you need a significantly higher amount of anti-tank fire power, but Eldar are stuck with the 3rd edition design concept where Land Raiders weren't cheap like they, relatively, are now.

Guardians (Heavy).
5-10. Lead by a Black Guardian (may not use platforms).
Lasblasters and tangle grenades (defensive grenades, enemies always count as assaulting through cover).Must take between 1 and 5 heavy weapons platforms. May take 1 support weapons platform (artillery rules, require 2 Guardians to fire, may move and fire). Max 1 platform per 2 Guardians.

Black Guardians (Troop). (Guardian profile +1BS/WS/LD)
5-10. Lead by Black Guardian Veteran (Aspect Profile +1A).
Plasma Grenades. May be armed with CCW+Pistol or Las Blaster. May be armed with Fusion Gun, Flamer, Shuriken Cannon or Power Weapon (every third, plus Veteran, may upgrade).
May take a limited selection of... weird stuff (deployables or one-shots, for the most part, like plasma shields or d-charges)

Warlock (Elite) (Warlock profile +1W, +2LD) (Roughly 70 points)
1-3. Independent characters.

Psychic powers divided into Fate (passive), Bane (Warlock) and Scrying (Farseer). Fate are minor powers which grants benefits to the psycher and the unit he's with such as Stealth or Stubborn. Bane holds offensive witch-powers such as Mind War (current) or Destructor (+1S & AP). Scrying holds the major psychic powers that aren't directly damaging.
Farseers takes 1 Fate and 2 Scrying, may cast up to two with upgrade. Warlocks take 1 Fate and 1 Bane. Costs for powers are embedded in original cost.
Fortune is simply too powerful, and I suggest it become a Fate power that states that a weapon must exceed the unit's armour in order to penetrate it (rather than match it).

Fluff can easily be adapted through very, very, minor changes so that craftworlds all have a standing army of Guardians.

Here's a new thought: allow the vehicles and jetbike's under-slung upgrade to feature more than just Shuriken Cannons. I'm thinking specifically about Heat Lance or similar middle-powered weapons, more geared towards MEQ or vehicle killing.

Another idea is to offer Guardian Storm (or their equivalent) the option to take 2-handed power weapons at a tiny cost. This would make them significantly larger threat to MEQ while being far removed from stepping on Banshee toes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a few... weird... devices.

D-Charge (one-shot item)
A D-Charge is a powerful, directional, distortion explosive which is used to clear obstacles made of materials which lesser races would consider indestructible.
In melee this is treated as a grenade. The item itself is only consumed if successfully attached to an object or vehicle. Instead of rolling for penetration, a roll of 2+ indicates that the target suffers a penetrating hit with a +1 damage modifier.

Plasma Shield (one-shot item)
Plasma Shields are highly advanced field projectors commonly deployed in passages or in front of Eldar fortifications on the field, lending strategic strongpoints to a race who seldom engage in trench-warfare.
Plasma Shields are deployed in the movement phase. They form a wall 3" wide and 3" high. The Plasma Shield does not block line of sight nor confer cover.
Weapons shooting through the shield with a strength higher than 4 is treated as having a strength of 4. Barrage weapons are not hindered in this way. Only units where 50% or more of the unit is partially or fully behind the shield and in line of sight are protected by it, vehicles and monstrous creatures must additionally have at least 50% of their hull covered by the shield.

Simulacrum Projector. (One-shot)
Using advanced holographic projection technology, the Eldar bolster their numbers from empty air, confusing their enemies' aim.
Used during the movement phase, and only if the unit is not currently engaged in melee. Until the end of the opponent's shooting phase, any attacks which successfully hit a model in the Eldar unit instead strikes a simulacrum on a roll of 4+. Does not work against template or blast weapons.

Fading Field. (One-shot)
A Fading Field is a testament to Eldar mastery over the light. By bending any light which strikes a small sphere of space so that it effectively passes over the sphere with only the smallest fraction of alteration, the Fading Field provides near perfect invisibility for a short period of time.
The Fading Field may be deployed during the movement phase. When deployed, replace the unit with a marker in squad coherency with as many models in the unit as possible. The marker now represents the unit until the end of the unit's next movement phase. The marker moves like a unit of the same type as the unit which faded. Enemies may not target the marker, but may assault it as if it were an enemy model.
When the effect ends, place the first model of the unit where the marker is and as many models as possible in coherency with this model. The effect will end if the unit wishes to use their weapons, or assault, if a blast marker (or other template-like weapon) strays to touch the marker or if an enemy model gets within 2" of the marker.
The Fading Field may make the unit invisible, but it does not block sound or smell.