Alpha Legion is suspected of still being loyal to the emperor and the Imperium, with some sources going so far as to say that Alpharius purposely allowed his legion to fall to Chaos to better combat it. Does anyone have any substantial examples of Imperial loyalty within Alpha Legion history/fluff during and post-Heresy? IMO, it seems pretty radical, but its what I've been reading lately and wanted to see what others thought.
They still use Imperial battle cries like "For the Emperor!"
Given their nature to be super sneaky, they would be the legion to do this. I don't know of any definite examples, but summoning a daemon could be, in their own way, helping the IoM... somehow.
They're still loyal to the Emperor, but they're either still trying to destroy the Imperium to accomplish their original mission, perhaps hoping that Abaddon will do the same thing Horus was meant to (and if he doesn't they'll be pretty annoyed at the Cabal), or else the Imperial armies they're killing are corrupted by Chaos and they're weakening Abaddon's allies.
snake wrote:Alpha Legion is suspected of still being loyal to the emperor and the Imperium, with some sources going so far as to say that Alpharius purposely allowed his legion to fall to Chaos to better combat it. Does anyone have any substantial examples of Imperial loyalty within Alpha Legion history/fluff during and post-Heresy? IMO, it seems pretty radical, but its what I've been reading lately and wanted to see what others thought.
This is a relatively new interpretation of the background - new as in LEGION and not really carried forward anywhere else, except a little bit in the AGE OF DARKNESS anthology.
Hopefully BL authors actually read LEGION and save us from the mustache twirling drama of THE HUNT FOR VOLDORIUS and "The Long Games at Carcharias".
The most likely ending of their 'too clever by half' attempt at outsmarting the Cabal and Horus is that some of the Legion remain dedicated to humanity and The Emperor, but not necessarily the Imperium, and some have fallen to Chaos.
I mean, can you see BL authors NOT using the Brother vs. Brother angle, quite literally here in the Legion, within the larger scope of the Horus Heresy?
As Alpharius said (creepy) they did hint at this in the book Legion by Dan Abnett. A secret cabal of psykers showed them that the Horus Heresy could only end one of two ways, one of which destroyed humanity and Chaos in the process, should Horus kill the Emperor and lead the traitors, and another way which resulted in the stagnant decline of the entire galaxy resulting in humanity's eventual destruction, should the Emperor kill Horus and finish his Great Crusade. The impression I got was that the Alpha Legion was trying to create a third option, orchestrating the events which led to the downfall of both leaders, in order to give humanity a fighting chance.
They are one of two of the Chaos legions which actually make some kind of sense, and I really hope they do something with this material in the future.
Jimsolo wrote:As Alpharius said (creepy) they did hint at this in the book Legion by Dan Abnett. A secret cabal of psykers showed them that the Horus Heresy could only end one of two ways, one of which destroyed humanity and Chaos in the process, should Horus kill the Emperor and lead the traitors, and another way which resulted in the stagnant decline of the entire galaxy resulting in humanity's eventual destruction, should the Emperor kill Horus and finish his Great Crusade. The impression I got was that the Alpha Legion was trying to create a third option, orchestrating the events which led to the downfall of both leaders, in order to give humanity a fighting chance.
They are one of two of the Chaos legions which actually make some kind of sense, and I really hope they do something with this material in the future.
Yes, that too!
Also, "The Face of Treachery" in AGE OF DARKNESS shed a little more light on the subject.
Well in DoW the Alpha Legion seems to be very much chaos...but the idea of them still being loyal to the Imperium is really cool, Although I doubt they will ever take it anywhere close to a definite answer.
Yo dawg, i heard this super secret Cabal of powerful alien psykers, who all have a reason to hate/fear us, wants us to destroy humanity in order to defeat Chaos...
You know...because the dark gods are fed by humanity alone...
Realy? Yes! Sure. They seem totaly legit. Ah well, DEATH TO ALL HUMANS!
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Kazerkinelite wrote:Well in DoW the Alpha Legion seems to be very much chaos...but the idea of them still being loyal to the Imperium is really cool, Although I doubt they will ever take it anywhere close to a definite answer.
snake wrote:Alpha Legion is suspected of still being loyal to the emperor and the Imperium, with some sources going so far as to say that Alpharius purposely allowed his legion to fall to Chaos to better combat it. Does anyone have any substantial examples of Imperial loyalty within Alpha Legion history/fluff during and post-Heresy? IMO, it seems pretty radical, but its what I've been reading lately and wanted to see what others thought.
Alpharius did purposefully side with the Traitors because he felt that's what the Emperor would want him to do. He did it out of loyalty (personally, I would have told those aliens to go stuff themselves and go on to ravage Horus' supply lines).
Whether that's still the case, is unclear. It could be argued that since many of their plans result in massive insurrections that require vast cleansing efforts by the Imperium, that they are still trying to wipe out all of humanity. For the Emperor.
AFAIK, the Alpha Legion don't devote themselves to one God above all others like WE, DG, TS and EC, nor do they have a history of summoning daemons like WB or trapping daemons like IW did to create the Defiler, nor are they led by a Chaos Ascendant spearheading strikes against the IoM from within the EoT.
This would make them possibly the least Chaos-y of the Legions, with the Night Lords not far behind, as they too don't seem to have taken to anything particularly chaos-y like summoning hordes of daemons, spreading plagues, creating daemon engines or developing odd fetishes.
There is certainly room to suggest they may be loyal in some respects, but it'd be a twisted loyalty such as that of the Soul Drinkers.
In my opinion no legion can be completly free of chaos. Once a marine goes renegade he can do whatever the hell he wants which means he can choose to worship a single god if he wants. Uzas is a good example.
Kazerkinelite wrote:Well in DoW the Alpha Legion seems to be very much chaos...but the idea of them still being loyal to the Imperium is really cool, Although I doubt they will ever take it anywhere close to a definite answer.
Yeah, the DoW series.... no.
Hahaha, I was talking about the 2004 RTS game, not the book series. Correct me if i'm wrong but doesnt GW over see what game developers do with their universe?
dajobe wrote:I want them to be loyal, that would be sweet.
I wish thousand sons were loyal, i really like their armor... then i could buy their army!
The Thousand Sons would have been loyal if the Emperor had just taken a step back and actually understood exactly what Magnus had done. Instead of immediatly sending the Space Wolves to go and bring him to justice. Thats my interpretation at least, I have not read the HH books going into the details of the Thousand Sons, there could be other variables that could have inevitably led them to chaos either way.
As for the Alpha Legion we don't even know which brother is alive...or if they are actually the same person. So I doubt we will ever fully know there intentions
even though i hate SW's with a passion, i do have to say that it wasnt all their fault... they were sent just to bring magnus to the emperor, Horus, who was the acting warmaster, told leman russ that the emperor changed his mind and wanted the thousand sons dead, so it amounts to leman russ was gullible and Horus was a giant piece of gak! poor thousand sons! WHY? they look to cool to be chaos!
dajobe wrote:even though i hate SW's with a passion, i do have to say that it wasnt all their fault... they were sent just to bring magnus to the emperor, Horus, who was the acting warmaster, told leman russ that the emperor changed his mind and wanted the thousand sons dead, so it amounts to leman russ was gullible and Horus was a giant piece of gak! poor thousand sons! WHY? they look to cool to be chaos!
Hmmm interesting, i did not know this. I must agree with your last sentence also, Their pre heresy armor was very much to my liking.
dajobe wrote:even though i hate SW's with a passion, i do have to say that it wasnt all their fault... they were sent just to bring magnus to the emperor, Horus, who was the acting warmaster, told leman russ that the emperor changed his mind and wanted the thousand sons dead, so it amounts to leman russ was gullible and Horus was a giant piece of gak! poor thousand sons! WHY? they look to cool to be chaos!
The only source for this are the taunts of a daemon, so we're not sure of its veracity. Space Wolves were spoiling for a fight with the Thousand Sons long before Magnus' ill-fated attempt to reach his father.
mattyrm wrote: I just read Legion, before they turn, Alpharius says to Omegon
"everything we do from this point on, we do for the emperor"
They are loyal alright.
That was 10 thousand years and multiple daemonic summonings ago.
They make use of cultists, but I've never heard of them making extensive use of daemon summoning - outside of Dawn of War, anyway, which I don't consider tip-top canon. They aren't even known to operate out of the Maelstrom, much less the Eye of Terror - they hang out in nooks and crannies in the Imperium.
Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt." - Gideon Ravenor, The Spheres of Longing
It is possible that they are doing things much like what Cypher the Fallen Angel is implied to be doing. Perhaps their use of cultists is deliberately tailored to subtly goad Imperial forces to cut out the cancers in their own society.
There's one more thing that hasn't been talked about at all. Alpharius Omegon is a primarch, with unrevealed powers. He/they might well have seen the visions of the Cabal with a psyker's eye, with both options present foreseen to their respective endpoints. But AO may well have seen more, a third option to keep his Emperor alive in some fashion while allowing the Heresy to take its dark course. If there was somebody willing to out-subtle Chaos to save humanity, it would take the sneakiest of sneaks.
As for Alpharius Omegon....I do believe it was never confirmed if they were the same person, or brothers. My interpretation however is that Alpharius had a duel personality, and if thats the case his plan is kaputt because Guilliman supposedly killed him.
There are definitely two Alpha Legion primarchs: Alpharius and Omegon. Guilliman killed someone calling himself Alpharius. It could have been neither of those two.
Kazerkinelite wrote:I like that thought, sounds very....sinister.
As for Alpharius Omegon....I do believe it was never confirmed if they were the same person, or brothers. My interpretation however is that Alpharius had a duel personality, and if thats the case his plan is kaputt because Guilliman supposedly killed him.
Im pretty it was confirmed that they are brothers. and one of them is dead. killed by an Imperial assassin.
Fairfeldia wrote:Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt." - Gideon Ravenor, The Spheres of Longing
clearly they are still loyal if they wish to be
Gideon Ravenor, though a cool guy, is an Imperial Inquisitor and severely biased against Chaos.
Vulpes89 wrote:
Im pretty it was confirmed that they are brothers. and one of them is dead. killed by an Imperial assassin.
Incorrect. Guilliman killed someone calling himself Alpharius. It could have been Alpharius, Omegon, or any other Alpha Legion marine. We don't know.
The only Primarch not killed by another primarch or the Emperor was The Night Haunter (by a Callidus Assassin)
don't you think guilliman would have known if it was an ordinary marine? I mean primarchs are kind of noticeable beings...I'm pretty sure guilliman wouldn't be that stupid.
Wulfe Luer wrote:It is possible that they are doing things much like what Cypher the Fallen Angel is implied to be doing. Perhaps their use of cultists is deliberately tailored to subtly goad Imperial forces to cut out the cancers in their own society.
There's one more thing that hasn't been talked about at all. Alpharius Omegon is a primarch, with unrevealed powers. He/they might well have seen the visions of the Cabal with a psyker's eye, with both options present foreseen to their respective endpoints. But AO may well have seen more, a third option to keep his Emperor alive in some fashion while allowing the Heresy to take its dark course. If there was somebody willing to out-subtle Chaos to save humanity, it would take the sneakiest of sneaks.
Kazerkinelite wrote:don't you think guilliman would have known if it was an ordinary marine? I mean primarchs are kind of noticeable beings...I'm pretty sure guilliman wouldn't be that stupid.
Alpharius was the shortest Primarch and was known to conceal himself as a regular Astartes. So there's no way of telling.
Plus, Omegon and Alpharius shared a soul, so at best Guilliman killed one of the bodies. If anything, the surviving twin is probably stronger for it.
Of course, since GW will never significantly advance the storyline, we'll probably never know.
I'd have thought that Guilliman would have been able to tell his brother from amongst the crowd, yaknow, due to the unique spiritual connection the HH books always hark on about.
Possibly, possibly not. We don't know if the other primarchs were aware of the fact that Alpha Legion has two, to begin with. We do know that Alpha Legion delights in deception, so there's just as much chance both primarchs are alive as not.
As far as their loyalty, they're loyal to humanity, but not the Imperium. They work with Chaos, but don't ultimately serve Chaos.
Loyal to humanity when their goal is to completely annihilate all humans? Uh... no. Their loyalty is to the Emperor because they believe he would want Chaos destroyed no matter what.
Of course, the only thing that made the risk of a full-on Chaos incursion through humanity ala the Fall of the Eldar is the Imperium connecting so many disparate worlds together. If things had been left in pre-Crusade status, there wouldn't be any Tyranids, and any individual empires wouldn't be large enough to cause another Chaos God to awaken (not to mention the fact that we see multiple examples of cultures that actively worship Chaos and prosper just fine). Hell, there probably wouldn't even be enough organized expeditions to awaken the Necrons.
Man, the galaxy would have been so much better without the Emperor and his genetic monstrosities.
There are hints of this, but I seriously doubt they have any significant positive contribution to imperial affairs. Yes, alpharius mentions some things about being loyal, but that doesn't mean those are the exact intentions of the legion itself.
I think its another tragedy in the making for any future shocking revelations. While the original goal was a noble one to try to save the Emperors vision of humanity surviving since then much has happened and things ofcourse change.
Aside from when you taske a role on you can become lost in it, theres the old saying about the abyss too...
Pity that the 40K universe wont be advanced and some of these questions answered with future novels/ campaigns etc I think it would be an interesting one to see what ultimately happened with the plan
Omegus wrote:Loyal to humanity when their goal is to completely annihilate all humans? Uh... no.
Uh, yes. People who put their dogs down are pretty loyal to them, I think, but they make the decision to spare them long, drawn-out pain in favor of a quick, clean end. Alpharius saw that Horus failing to triumph would result in thousands of years of darkness and despair for humanity, whereas annihilating humanity early on would be, relatively speaking, quick and painless.
They're specifically not loyal to the Emperor, in fact, at least not in the way one would think; Legion makes it clear that the Alpha Legion had already long since come to the conclusion that the Emperor's ideal utopia simply wasn't possible, and was one big fool's errand. They're trying to save the Emperor and humanity from something they can't see coming.
DarknessEternal wrote:
Seaward wrote:
As far as their loyalty, they're loyal to humanity, but not the Imperium. They work with Chaos, but don't ultimately serve Chaos.
All those planets they've ravaged with chaos cults and summoned daemons probably disagree.
I've seen zero evidence that they make use of daemonic summoning, to be honest. You've asserted this a couple times now - could you point me towards the fluff?
Indeed. If I remember correctly, only the Cultists in Alpha Legion armies could carry Icons to summon daemons from. They could, however, field possessed and Daemon Princes.
Seaward wrote: I've seen zero evidence that they make use of daemonic summoning, to be honest.
Lexicanum, and earlier versions of Codex Chaos should do it.
Well, I consider Lexicanum to be about as reliable as GW itself considers Lexicanum to be.
As for earlier versions of the codex...eh. Space Marines were convicts in earlier versions of their codex. And as someone pointed out, their cultist troops could summon, but not actual ALCSMs.
In the version of the fluff that will exist in my head until some author cruelly wipes it out, the following would happen.
Alpharius and Omegon were aware if the Imperium long before they reluctantly revealed (one of) themselves. They (collectively) are their own masters and in everything they do they intend to retain control of their own fate. Though loyal to the Emperor in a personal sense, they don't appreciate the yoke of the Imperium, and see its numerous flaws. This makes them the polar opposite of the vile traitor Guilliman, who is loyal to the idea of the Imperium but doesn't lift a finger to help the Emperor.
After Legion, they play along with the Cabal long enough to learn what they can, then wipe them out (nobody pulls their strings). They see the Heresy as an opportunity to arrive at a point where they are not beholden to anyone, Imperium or Traitor. They are somehow involved in unravelling Guilliman's plans for an sucessionist Imperium Secondus, forcing him to intervene in the aftermath of the Heresy so as to guarantee an Imperium strong enough to hold off its competitors but not to complete the galactic conquest that would have seen them forever lose their independence of action.
LOL, if Guilliman tried to send his ships to help the Emperor, they would have likely been stuck in the warp like the Wolves and Dark Angels (?), arriving in the very last moment.
He was aware his actions would be seen as treasonous, but if nothing he else, he was supremely logical and did the most logical thing. If the Imperium won, he would have a full Legion in place to chase out the Traitor remnants and keep any survivors from getting their own ideas of treachery (i.e. what really happened). If the traitors won, the Imperium and its ideals would still be able to survive intact in the Ultima Segmentum (the largest chunk of the Empire) and continue the battle. There wasn't anything secessionist about it.
But way to attribute magical powers to the Alpha Legion. As much as I like them, they weren't dictating what Guilliman did (except when they owned him after he "killed" Alpharius). And the Cabal is doing just fine; at the very least they have survivors among the Watchers in the Dark that hang out with the Dark Angels.
Temujin wrote:In the version of the fluff that will exist in my head until some author cruelly wipes it out, the following would happen.
Alpharius and Omegon were aware if the Imperium long before they reluctantly revealed (one of) themselves. They (collectively) are their own masters and in everything they do they intend to retain control of their own fate. Though loyal to the Emperor in a personal sense, they don't appreciate the yoke of the Imperium, and see its numerous flaws. This makes them the polar opposite of the vile traitor Guilliman, who is loyal to the idea of the Imperium but doesn't lift a finger to help the Emperor.
After Legion, they play along with the Cabal long enough to learn what they can, then wipe them out (nobody pulls their strings). They see the Heresy as an opportunity to arrive at a point where they are not beholden to anyone, Imperium or Traitor. They are somehow involved in unravelling Guilliman's plans for an sucessionist Imperium Secondus, forcing him to intervene in the aftermath of the Heresy so as to guarantee an Imperium strong enough to hold off its competitors but not to complete the galactic conquest that would have seen them forever lose their independence of action.
That's not bad at all!
And remember, one consistent piece in their background is no one knows the Legion's homeworld...
Seaward wrote:Possibly, possibly not. We don't know if the other primarchs were aware of the fact that Alpha Legion has two, to begin with.
It's stated somewhere (probably Legion?) that outside of the Alpha Legion, only the Emperor knew about Alpharius and Omegon--implying the other Primarchs did not.
It wouldn't be too crazy to say that some Alpha Legion companies/chapters fell to chaos over the past 10k years (eg, the Dawn of War guy), while others didn't.
On the other hand, I interpreted The Face of Treachery as 'Horus wants to keep Corax alive, knowing he'll go crazy' (which roughly speaking, happened) and then fall to chaos as well (which didn't).
Alpharius Omegan was contacted by the Cabal - a group of aliens - and was told that if the Emporer beat Horus then humanity would be doomed to spiral down to chaos over milenia. If horus won, humanity would destroy itself in decades and so chaos would be destroyed permenantly. So Alpharius took it upon himself to betray the Emporer for the good of the rest of the galaxy.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Alpharius Omegan was contacted by the Cabal - a group of aliens - and was told that if the Emporer beat Horus then humanity would be doomed to spiral down to chaos over milenia.
Yep, sounds about right.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:If horus won, humanity would destroy itself in decades and so chaos would be destroyed permenantly.
Everything seems to be in order here.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:So Alpharius took it upon himself to betray the Emporer for the good of the rest of the galaxy.
This is pure speculation and would be a very disappointing abandonment of everything that Legion established about Alpharius/Omegon's character. Legion ended with Alpharius seemingly going along with the Cabal, but nothing of his intentions or subsequent actions were revealed. The Alpha Legion's loyalties are still very much up in the air.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:So Alpharius took it upon himself to betray the Emporer for the good of the rest of the galaxy.
This is pure speculation and would be a very disappointing abandonment of everything that Legion established about Alpharius/Omegon's character. Legion ended with Alpharius seemingly going along with the Cabal, but nothing of his intentions or subsequent actions were revealed. The Alpha Legion's loyalties are still very much up in the air.
The Alpha Legion betrayed the Emperor to try to bring about the elimination of Chaos from the galaxy. The actions they took during the heresy were very much loyal to the Emperor's wishes even if they were taken against the Emperor himself. Now after the Heresy, they continue to fight the IoM by starting insurrections and killing people of the Imperium. The Emperor began the Great Crusade to reunite humanity and eliminate the worship of idols as gods. Now the IoM worships the Emperor as a god. The Alpha Legion continues to be loyal to the Emperor by fighting against the Imperium.
From the ending of Legion by Dan Abnett (which is supposedly canon) Alpharius and Omegon agree to join Horus for the good of the galaxy, sacrificing Humanity so that all other races could live.
However, they are always for the emperor, as the last sentence they made was in the book (i think), sabotaging other chaos factions in some cases, while making it look like they are chaos in front of chaos.
If you ask me, after the failed heresy, they should have rejoined the loyalists (or did they in secret...).
God what a great topic! Im a fan of Horus Heresy books and I really enjoyed the whole conversation here! Tottaly agreed with the most of the things written here and the whole fluff with the heresy it suits greatly to be honest. After all those grim ages seems to have tons of conspirancies and hidden fluff to search about!
@Theofilos: Yeah, the Alpha Legion is an awesome legion, and imo the only one which remained a legion fully after the Horus Heresy. The black legion is a mishmash of legions, and the night lords, while retaining there relative communications are still fractured.
dakkawolf wrote:@Theofilos: Yeah, the Alpha Legion is an awesome legion, and imo the only one which remained a legion fully after the Horus Heresy. The black legion is a mishmash of legions, and the night lords, while retaining there relative communications are still fractured.
Yes, they are awesome BUT... I am not so sure that they remain a cohesive Legion 'today'.
I think the BL authors would be hard pressed to resist the literal 'brother vs. brother' schism they could have with Alpharius leading one faction and Omegon leading another, at cross purposes, of course!
Plus, it would help explain how we still end up with the mustache twirling, baby stapling stereotypical loonies of THE HUNT FOR VOLDORIUS and "The Long Games at Carcharias".
dakkawolf wrote:@Theofilos: Yeah, the Alpha Legion is an awesome legion, and imo the only one which remained a legion fully after the Horus Heresy. The black legion is a mishmash of legions, and the night lords, while retaining there relative communications are still fractured.
Yes, they are awesome BUT... I am not so sure that they remain a cohesive Legion 'today'.
I think the BL authors would be hard pressed to resist the literal 'brother vs. brother' schism they could have with Alpharius leading one faction and Omegon leading another, at cross purposes, of course!
Plus, it would help explain how we still end up with the mustache twirling, baby stapling stereotypical loonies of THE HUNT FOR VOLDORIUS and "The Long Games at Carcharias".
Maybe.
I've got my own idea as to how this will be going.
Namely:
The Alpha Legion are nearly decimated during the course of the Heresy, which explains why they had an 'Inquisitor' fudge the records of the Alpha Legion.
It's like the Knights of the Blackened Denarius from "The Dresden Files" novels. They are effectively a tiny, insignificant force in terms of numbers...but their influence and actions are felt everywhere.
dakkawolf wrote:@Theofilos: Yeah, the Alpha Legion is an awesome legion, and imo the only one which remained a legion fully after the Horus Heresy. The black legion is a mishmash of legions, and the night lords, while retaining there relative communications are still fractured.
The Word Bearers and Iron Warriors remain cohesive to this day. The Black Legion is not a mismatch of Legions.
Alpharius wrote:I think the BL authors would be hard pressed to resist the literal 'brother vs. brother' schism they could have with Alpharius leading one faction and Omegon leading another, at cross purposes, of course!
I hope they do resist. While it could work if written well, I think it would just be a bit too easy and similar to what happened in many other legions.
Alpharius wrote:Plus, it would help explain how we still end up with the mustache twirling, baby stapling stereotypical loonies of THE HUNT FOR VOLDORIUS and "The Long Games at Carcharias".
I know how I would deal with that *cough*pulpallnovelsandpretenditneverhappened*cough*.
dakkawolf wrote:@Theofilos: Yeah, the Alpha Legion is an awesome legion, and imo the only one which remained a legion fully after the Horus Heresy. The black legion is a mishmash of legions, and the night lords, while retaining there relative communications are still fractured.
Of course, they never really operated as a Legion, preferring to use small squads of operatives that subvert local assets to their purposes. That's why to this date the Imperium has declared them annihilated three separate times, only for them to rise up again. Of course, this fragmented style is what opens the door for individual Legionnaires to turn to Chaos. After all, in many ways, the Night Lords turned before their Primarch did (if he ever truly did), so it's not impossible that the same happened the Alpha Legion.
As for the brother vs. brother thing, I really hope that doesn't happen. For one, it's just too obvious and cliche, even for Games Workshop. Second, they are supposedly parts of a whole/sharing a single soul, so for them to not act in concert just seems wrong. I would prefer something like Alpharius or Omegon making themselves known during some massive plot against Ultramar, and Guilliman has to be re-awakened for a proper rematch.
Alpharius wrote:Plus, it would help explain how we still end up with the mustache twirling, baby stapling stereotypical loonies of THE HUNT FOR VOLDORIUS and "The Long Games at Carcharias".
I know how I would deal with that *cough*pulpallnovelsandpretenditneverhappened*cough*.
For what's worth, in the Age of Darkness short story, "Face of Treachery",
Spoiler:
the Alpha Legion seems to have orchestrated events to save Corax and his surviving Astartes from Istvaan V. So that lends credence to the theory that they were working against both the Imperium and Horus.
Of course, since this action works in direct opposition to Horus' success, it casts doubt on the idea that they were really buying the Coven's suggestion to annihilate all of humanity. Their current activities could well be in line with that Inquisition sub-sect that believes strife is to the benefit of the Imperium, whether just to keep up their vigilance or emerge stronger from each conflict.
Vulpes89 wrote:
Im pretty it was confirmed that they are brothers. and one of them is dead. killed by an Imperial assassin.
Incorrect. Guilliman killed someone calling himself Alpharius. It could have been Alpharius, Omegon, or any other Alpha Legion marine. We don't know.
The only Primarch not killed by another primarch or the Emperor was The Night Haunter (by a Callidus Assassin)
don't you think guilliman would have known if it was an ordinary marine? I mean primarchs are kind of noticeable beings...I'm pretty sure guilliman wouldn't be that stupid.
The Alpha Legion went out of their way to make members look similar, and in Legion alone, at least three members besides Omegon successfully pulled off pretending to be one of the primarchs. See someone in Alpharius' armour, who do you think it is, even if you are a primarch yourself? Besides, the Ultramarines themselves admitted it mightn't have been the real Alpharius.
Also, how do we know the Cabal isn't dedicated to Chaos itself? They show the Alpha Legion primarchs one vision. Surely they could be doing the same thing the Gods did to Horus earlier, showing them the future if they followed Horus rather than opposing him. It would certainly explain why they lost, with the vision coming true rather than being stopped.
True, he's not a genuine Astartes, so he doesn't have their "immortality" shtick, unless the enhancements given to him are really exceptional. I'm guessing it's a combination of enhancements, whatever sorceries he performed (he gained psychic powers, for one), and his cell being in stasis at least some of the time.
If they were loyal, their mission failed when Horus died and the Imperium won't ever take them back.
Methinks they've been forced into an untenable position.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kazerkinelite wrote:Well in DoW the Alpha Legion seems to be very much chaos...but the idea of them still being loyal to the Imperium is really cool, Although I doubt they will ever take it anywhere close to a definite answer.
I think it's a safe bet to say that DoW does a pretty poor job of portraying the Alpha Legion:
i dont really consider that thing about luther a spoiler, anything on wikipedia i dont, if you have to read it solely in a book to get the knowledge, then yes
One thing bugged me while reading Legion: Wouldn't a more reasonable third option for the Alpha Legion have been to assassinate Horus and/or destroy the Luna Wolves before the Heresy kicked off? At the point the novel ends it is 'too late' in the sense that Horus is already/well on his way to being possessed, but there is still a few years of time to go before he actually outright rebels, no? Surely of all the legions, the one in the best position to actually accomplish something like this would have been the secretive and stealthy Alpha Legion. As I understood it, both Option 1 and Option 2 and their relevant outcomes were only really applicable because the Heresy took place in the first place, as in: killing Horus early would circumvent the conditions that would ultimately bring Chaos to ultimate power.
As for the Thousand Sons and Leman Russ, etc. I will point out that entire situation also puts Magnus at blame as well. If you read Prospero Burns, Leman Russ attempted to give Magnus every possible opportunity to surrender so that the bloodshed and fighting could be avoided, even after Horus ordered him to attack. Magnus/the Thousand Sons didn't respond, which prompted the attack in the first place.
i want alpha legion to go back to imperium, but have to go on a crusade where they crusade 1 year for every year they were acting as "traitors". So once GW advances the plot along long enough that they are back from their crusade, the emperor will be reborn and really powerful again, plus it will be the year 15000 in real life!
Automatically Appended Next Post: GW is now set for the next 13000 years!
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, 600th post!
chaos0xomega wrote:As for the Thousand Sons and Leman Russ, etc. I will point out that entire situation also puts Magnus at blame as well. If you read Prospero Burns, Leman Russ attempted to give Magnus every possible opportunity to surrender so that the bloodshed and fighting could be avoided, even after Horus ordered him to attack. Magnus/the Thousand Sons didn't respond, which prompted the attack in the first place.
That's bogus. "Every possible opportunity" meaning a private request via Kasper Howser
Spoiler:
who we later find out was not planted by Magnus, but rather daemons/Horus? All Russ did was give Horus something to laugh about
. If he truly wanted to give him an opportunity, he would have made a public announcement about it, but he probably was afraid his warriors would make fun of him over it or some such macho bullcrap. The Wolves didn't hesitate to start bombarding the crap out of the planet and slaughtering everything in sight when they arrived to see the defenses down and the way to the planet wide open.
dajobe wrote:i want alpha legion to go back to imperium, but have to go on a crusade where they crusade 1 year for every year they were acting as "traitors".
It's considered impolite to survive a suicide mission.
Avatar 720 wrote:AFAIK, the Alpha Legion don't devote themselves to one God above all others like WE, DG, TS and EC, nor do they have a history of summoning daemons like WB or trapping daemons like IW did to create the Defiler, nor are they led by a Chaos Ascendant spearheading strikes against the IoM from within the EoT.
Could you use a few more acronyms please, way to many actual words to read there.
10,000 years is a long time. Who knows what their true loyalty is anymore. I do believe they were loyal through the Heresy though. But now, it's anyone's guess.
Cross it? Or infiltrate the maintenance crew, slowly sabotage its integrity, draw one target onto the bridge and collapse the whole thing on another target? Also, ninjas.
dajobe wrote:i want alpha legion to go back to imperium, but have to go on a crusade where they crusade 1 year for every year they were acting as "traitors". So once GW advances the plot along long enough that they are back from their crusade, the emperor will be reborn and really powerful again, plus it will be the year 15000 in real life!
Automatically Appended Next Post: GW is now set for the next 13000 years!
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, 600th post!
And therefore completely destroy the setting we all love. After all, a strong Imperium is no longer a grimdark one and the Emprah serves better as a vegetable than a Marty Stu Regarding that Alpha Legion repenting thingy you seem to like, Arkos the Faithless would like to have a word with you...
Just watch out for his toothpick, he likes to stick it into loyalists
chaos0xomega wrote:As for the Thousand Sons and Leman Russ, etc. I will point out that entire situation also puts Magnus at blame as well. If you read Prospero Burns, Leman Russ attempted to give Magnus every possible opportunity to surrender so that the bloodshed and fighting could be avoided, even after Horus ordered him to attack. Magnus/the Thousand Sons didn't respond, which prompted the attack in the first place.
That's bogus. "Every possible opportunity" meaning a private request via Kasper Howser
Spoiler:
who we later find out was not planted by Magnus, but rather daemons/Horus? All Russ did was give Horus something to laugh about
. If he truly wanted to give him an opportunity, he would have made a public announcement about it, but he probably was afraid his warriors would make fun of him over it or some such macho bullcrap. The Wolves didn't hesitate to start bombarding the crap out of the planet and slaughtering everything in sight when they arrived to see the defenses down and the way to the planet wide open.
Didn't Russ directly communicate psychically (or attempt to) or something with Magnus as the Space Wolves fleet approached/sat in orbit around Prospero. I swear there was a part of the book where I thought to myself, why didn't Magnus respond? And it didn't involve Kaspar Howserto my knowledge
chaos0xomega wrote:Didn't Russ directly communicate psychically (or attempt to) or something with Magnus as the Space Wolves fleet approached/sat in orbit around Prospero. I swear there was a part of the book where I thought to myself, why didn't Magnus respond? And it didn't involve Kaspar Howserto my knowledge
The only psychic abilities Russ displays is the ability to yell really loud and disrupt other psykers.
Spoiler:
The Wolves have been to this point operating under the assumption that Howser is Magnus' eyes and ears, which is why they let him live (the enemy you know, and all that). Russ calls Howser into a private audience, and speaks to him/through him. He then asks Howser if he can feel any kind of response, and Howser basically tells him "No? Maybe? I don't know what the feth you're talking about, I'm still not buying this whole psychic spy spiel".
Didn't Russ directly communicate psychically (or attempt to) or something with Magnus as the Space Wolves fleet approached/sat in orbit around Prospero. I swear there was a part of the book where I thought to myself, why didn't Magnus respond? And it didn't involve Kaspar Howserto my knowledge
Perhaps because Hawser wasn't controlled by Magnus, when Russ talked through him, he wasn't talking to who he thought he was.
Cross it? Or infiltrate the maintenance crew, slowly sabotage its integrity, draw one target onto the bridge and collapse the whole thing on another target? Also, ninjas.
lol, that is a good idea, and KingDeath, you could still make it grimdark by giving the emperor herpes or something...
The first is questionable, since they infiltrated Chaos more than fell. The second is questionable, since they are loyal to Alpharius Omegon. The question is, is he/ are they loyal to the Emperor?
dajobe wrote:i want alpha legion to go back to imperium, but have to go on a crusade where they crusade 1 year for every year they were acting as "traitors".
It's considered impolite to survive a suicide mission.
