Hi guys me and my friend are trying to create chaos armies and we wanted you guys opinion on which legion to theme it after, and we wanted to theme based on the most powerful actual gameplay wise and flluff wise as well.

IMHO i feel that gameplay wise it i think that the Thousand sons is are pretty decent, but haven't seemed to do much fluff wise, so if if could get as many outside opinons as possible i would really appreciate it

The Black Legion is, thanks to their massive recruitment, the largest and most powerful Legion.
1k sons have always been small but have, at least in the fluff, mighty sorcerors. Of course, on the tabletop they suck badly.

KingDeath wrote:The Black Legion is, thanks to their massive recruitment, the largest and most powerful Legion.
1k sons have always been small but have, at least in the fluff, mighty sorcerors. Of course, on the tabletop they suck badly.

+1

The Black Legion is probably the most powerful, but they usually get their fannies handed to them once real warfare starts. Most successful? Probably the Alpha Legion, in my opinion. If you want a successful Chaos Marine group that is a bit more Chaos-y than the Alpha Legion, I suggest checking out the Red Corsairs. (Granted, a warband rather than a Legion, but still fits the other criteria.)

I'd say fluff wise the black legion is indeed the most powerfull and has probably done the most damage to the Imperium as a whole. I think the second place goes to either the Word Bearers or the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers having more cannon fodder while the Iron Warriors has better equipment. World Eaters have also done a lot of damage to the Imperials, but they only operate as a large group when led by Angron and that makes large attacks by them rather rare. Death Guard has also managed to infect a large number of Imperial planets when led by Typhus the Traveller, last I heard he is turning a few worlds near the Cadian gate into daemon worlds.

It's important to remember that Legions don't really exist any more as organizations; warbands are the way Chaos operates. The Black Legion is the closest to retaining its pre-Heresy cohesiveness, but even it's nowhere near the regimented, organized entity it once was.

The Black Legion's definitely both the most powerful and most accomplished, however. People like to give Abaddon guff because of his perceived failures, but bear in mind he assaulted and successfully took 60% of the most heavily defended planet outside of Terra itself. If Cadia falls, Chaos can beeline right for Terra unimpeded. If Cadia falls, Chaos wins. And Abaddon's got over half the planet.

Black legion by far.

Then the following:
Alpha legion, Word Bearers, Iron warriors


Thousand Sons, Emperors Children, Death guard, World Eaters (They act more like independent factions, rather than their former coherent legions)


Night Lords and other recent renegades

Despite his failures in the past, it can't be argued that Abbaddon isn't the most successful Chaos Warlord, especially from the state the Legion was in after the Heresy. The Black Legion is the most successful, if not always favored and they are sure giving The Imperium a run for its money.

Were it not for the fact that GW portrays Abaddon and his Black Legion as the Dastardly and Mutley of W40K, i've no doubt that they'd easily be the most powerful and accomplished of the legions in their current states.

As it stands, some people may disagree due to the fact that Abaddon seems to be going nowhere with his crusades, but that's only because GW are reluctant to advance the storyline and/or let Chaos appear to actually be winning something.

My vote goes to the Black Legion.

I mean, another Legion could have easily dominated the the others when the Black Legion was low in strength, but Abbaddon has clawed his way back to supremacy, and certainly deserves it more than any other random Daemon Primarch or Chaos Lord, except for maybe DOOOMBREEED and his deliciously ruinous snack friend DOOOOMBREEAAD.

Word Bearers.

There wouldn't be any Chaos Legions without them.

The Luna Wolves were the greatest Legion of the day of course.

Probably Black Legion, and then Word Bearers and Iron Warriors.

BL have big recruitment and crusade everywhere, WB have tons of cultists and daemons for manpower, and IW have big recruitment and technology.

I wouldn't really give Word Bearers most powerful, but most successful certainly. They are also (along with the Alpha Legion) the most cohesive.

Iron Warriors all the way.

Here's me ranking them in order of how successful they've been since the Horus Heresy IMO.

1. Black Legion
They're the largest. They control two Blackstone Fortresses and the Planet Killer. They tax other Legions for Marines. Of course they're the strongest.
2. Alpha Legion
They're sneaky, they've remained united, and they are outside the Eye of Terror.
3. Death Guard
The Death Guard has remained united and strong. In addition they are close allies of the Black Legion.
4. Iron Warriors
They've had very few failures since the Horus Heresy and still manage to recruit.
5. Thousand Sons
Though they've accomplished some significant things since the Heresy they've been weakened over time, primarily due to their inability to recruit.
6. World Eaters
They've accomplished a lot, but they are also splintered badly and will probably never unite again.
7. Night Lords
The Night Lords have been splintered like the World Eaters and this is their main downfall. Nevertheless, they're sneaky like the Alpha Legion and thus have avoided demise.
8. Emperor's Children
They used to be one of the strongest Legions, but after stealing Horus' body from the Black Legion Abaddon got pissed and splintered and ruined them.
9. Word Bearers
They were one of the biggest players during the Horus Heresy and have remained united, but are also stagnant and generally don't have much influence. A lot of people will disagree with me on this, but it's hard to list any accomplishments they've had since the Heresy.

^ agreed.
except word bearers should be number 5.

Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors have retained some semblance of unity and cohesiveness, the other major Legions are all splintered into various factions. Thus they should be the top 3. Alpha Legion is a bit of both as while it's still presumably a unified force, its various cells scattered across the galaxy are acting independently towards the same goal.

LoneLictor wrote:
3. Death Guard
The Death Guard has remained united and strong. In addition they are close allies of the Black Legion.
.

This is incorrect, they are not united. After Mortarion created the plague planet and fashioned it in the likeness of his homeworld, Typhus and a few other captains along with their men left the legion. This is why Typhus bears the mark of nurgle only and not that of the death guard.

As far as power, black legion is the most powerful after that, there is really no point in arguing the other legions. Only abbadon realizes they must unite to take Terra. The other legions simply follow their own ambitions. Don't get me wrong word bearers are my favorite but they do not have the same vision as abbadon. They certainly are more powerful than the thousand sons tho, the thousand suns are almost as dissolved as the world eaters, small warbands just roaming the galaxy with the exception of ahriman

Eliliketheanchor wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:
3. Death Guard
The Death Guard has remained united and strong. In addition they are close allies of the Black Legion.
.

This is incorrect, they are not united. After Mortarion created the plague planet and fashioned it in the likeness of his homeworld, Typhus and a few other captains along with their men left the legion. This is why Typhus bears the mark of nurgle only and not that of the death guard.

As far as power, black legion is the most powerful after that, there is really no point in arguing the other legions. Only abbadon realizes they must unite to take Terra. The other legions simply follow their own ambitions. Don't get me wrong word bearers are my favorite but they do not have the same vision as abbadon. They certainly are more powerful than the thousand sons tho, the thousand suns are almost as dissolved as the world eaters, small warbands just roaming the galaxy with the exception of ahriman

The Word Bearers definitely are strong, but they're also stagnant. The Thousand Sons are weaker than the Word Bearers but they continue to fight.

Actually it's probably the Word Bearers. They haven't launched any big crusades but they are a constant pain to the imperium. The casulties from all the wars caused by heresys influenced by the WB could be more than the damage caused by the BL.

I don't understand how the Word Bearers are "stagnant". Stagnant as is, they aren't splintered into warbands like six of the other Legions? Word Bearers haven't been the most successful, but saying they are the least is a little bit of an over-exaggeration. What have the Emperors Children done?

The Alpha Legion, they are arguably the most successful because we still know so little about them even after 10000 years. If they can hide thier strength, they are the strongest.
However, based on what we know, the Black Legion has the greatest number of marines and followers, you can try to be like them, or create your army after them.

Monster Rain wrote:Word Bearers.

There wouldn't be any Chaos Legions without them.

+1


Word bearers, the most sucsessfull, bases in the mealstrom and the eye, still at legion strength.

oh yes, they are the ones.

Lorgar needs to get off his medetating ass, kill Failadon the despoiler, and take charge.

iproxtaco wrote:What have the Emperors Children done?

A lot of cocaine

Anyway, my vote goes to the Black Legion, they actually are assaulting Cadia and it seems like they've done quite a bit there. On the second-most heavily fortified planet in the Imperium (barring Terra).

Gavo wrote:. On the second-most heavily fortified planet in the Imperium (barring Terra).

Mars?

iproxtaco wrote:I don't understand how the Word Bearers are "stagnant". Stagnant as is, they aren't splintered into warbands like six of the other Legions? Word Bearers haven't been the most successful, but saying they are the least is a little bit of an over-exaggeration. What have the Emperors Children done?

They killed Reboute Gulliman. Actually, wait, they didn't. They just mortally wounded him and doomed him to a paralyzed fate worse than death.

Also, if we count in the Word Bearer's actions during the Horus Heresy, then I'd rate them as Number 5 or higher. I was just rating their accomplishments after the Heresy. They haven't done much beyond set up cults and take place in the Black Crusades, which almost every other Legion has down since then.

Alpha Legion is at the bottom. They're so inactive they've been declared extinct several times.

So, because they haven't killed or mortally wounded a Primarch, they are lowest on the scale, despite doing more than any other Legion to further their goals bar The Black Legion and possibly the Alpha Legion. Setting up countless cults across the Imperium is a lot better than performing one act and then splintering into hundreds of individual bands. Them, the Iron Warriors and The Black Legion are the only remotely unified force, each having a central command, the same goals throughout the Legion, and coordination.

Also, if we count in the Word Bearer's actions during the Horus Heresy, then I'd rate them as Number 5 or higher. I was just rating their accomplishments after the Heresy. They haven't done much beyond set up cults and take place in the Black Crusades, which almost every other Legion has down since then.

Huh?

If we rate them including actions during the heresy then it is definately the Word bearers are easily number 1 seeing that they started the heresy.

4M2A wrote:

Also, if we count in the Word Bearer's actions during the Horus Heresy, then I'd rate them as Number 5 or higher. I was just rating their accomplishments after the Heresy. They haven't done much beyond set up cults and take place in the Black Crusades, which almost every other Legion has down since then.

Huh?

If we rate them including actions during the heresy then it is definately the Word bearers are easily number 1 seeing that they started the heresy.

They started it but without the other Legions it would've gone nowhere. They'd probably be number 2 if we include stuff during the Heresy. Also, the Word Bearer thing is only my opinion. From my perspective it looks like they've become content to stay in the Eye of Terror and worship the Chaos Gods rather than attempt to overtake the Imperium.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Alpha Legion is at the bottom. They're so inactive they've been declared extinct several times.

Isn't stealth, sneakiness and hiding what they do the Alpha Legions strength? I'm just saying if they are able to hide thier presence and even be declared extinct and still carry out thier operations (which nobody knows about) a success?

Conservationist wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Alpha Legion is at the bottom. They're so inactive they've been declared extinct several times.

Isn't stealth, sneakiness and hiding what they do the Alpha Legions strength? I'm just saying if they are able to hide thier presence and even be declared extinct and still carry out thier operations (which nobody knows about) a success?

No. When you're mortal enemy says you're not even a threat that's a clue that you suck.

They say that because
1: They don't see the Alpha Legion, they see the cults and operatives they leave behind.
2: They don't want to admit that they can't destroy them after 10'000 years of trying.

The Black Legion recruite EVERYONE, so they've got massive strength in numbers, and they have the Lost and the Damned.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gavo wrote:. On the second-most heavily fortified planet in the Imperium (barring Terra).

Mars?

Derp. Forgot about that.

It's possible that the Alpha Legion is the most accomplished, if the fan theory about them infiltrating the Ultramarines is to be believed.

Without looking at fan theories, though, I think the toughest would be the Black Legion, if only because they're the ones who beat the other Legions into line every time Abaddon wants to go crusading.

Small, Far Away wrote:The Black Legion recruite EVERYONE, so they've got massive strength in numbers, and they have the Lost and the Damned.

However it is mentioned in the Night Lords 2nd book that the traitors, especially the lost and the damned flock to the maelstrom to join huron and that huron blackheart has a force that rivals that of abbadon. wonder where the lost and the damned go to most, the original legions or the corsairs.

I think that the Word Bearers would be the most accomplished, perhaps slightly less powerful; than the Black Legion.

While most people would percieve the Black Legion as the most successful, we must remember that it was the Kor Phaeron and Erebus that instigated the Horus Heresy. While they failed to destroy the Imperium, perhaps that was not their ultimate intent. Before the heresy, relatively few within the human race(s) knew of the existence of the Chaos Gods let alone worshipped them. The ruinous powers probably needed more energy from mortal emotions in order to survive, and the trillions of lives of the new imperium would provide enough worship in order to sustain them. After the heresy the imperium was saturated with cults offering them strength, and the threat that the Emporer himself posed was ostensibly eradicated. Erebus and Kor Phaeron, and in turn the legion itself, are pawns of Chaos that have been instrumental in ensuring the survival and improved sustenance of their dark masters, whether wittingly in or not. In this sense the Word Bearers, or at least their overlords, have been more successful than the Black Legion ever was (Horus was a tool to be manipulated by Erebus in order to act as a figurehead and a source of authority in order to carry out his will).

The Word Bearers are currently the most organised and united of the Chaos Legions, ruled from the Eye of Terror by the Dark Council, not comprised of individual warbands but as allied Hosts under a common authority and also devoid of schisms in regard to their differing allegiances to the gods, as they all serve the Dark Pantheon. The Word Bearers are to blame for the imperium's slow death, and Lorgar is ultimately responsible for the Imperial Cult, which is also the reason for his eventual betrayal (or enlightenment). Regarding their power, they may not have so much as the Warmaster Abbadon, but orchestrate countless cults on almost every world they have ever held possession of and (this is very important) maintain a firm grasp over their own legion. Most other legions have dispersed and separated into warbands led by volatile lords concerned only for their own goals (sometimes rival warbands of the same legion fight one another) while the Word Bearers are united by cause, belief and leadership.

That's just my five cents

Black legion

world eaters

death guard

alpha legion

thousand sons

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Alpha Legion is at the bottom. They're so inactive they've been declared extinct several times.

Thats just because they are so good. I would put money on the Night Lords being at the bottom.

Deathly Angel wrote:I think that the Word Bearers would be the most accomplished, perhaps slightly less powerful; than the Black Legion.

While most people would percieve the Black Legion as the most successful, we must remember that it was the Kor Phaeron and Erebus that instigated the Horus Heresy. While they failed to destroy the Imperium, perhaps that was not their ultimate intent. Before the heresy, relatively few within the human race(s) knew of the existence of the Chaos Gods let alone worshipped them. The ruinous powers probably needed more energy from mortal emotions in order to survive, and the trillions of lives of the new imperium would provide enough worship in order to sustain them. After the heresy the imperium was saturated with cults offering them strength, and the threat that the Emporer himself posed was ostensibly eradicated. Erebus and Kor Phaeron, and in turn the legion itself, are pawns of Chaos that have been instrumental in ensuring the survival and improved sustenance of their dark masters, whether wittingly in or not. In this sense the Word Bearers, or at least their overlords, have been more successful than the Black Legion ever was (Horus was a tool to be manipulated by Erebus in order to act as a figurehead and a source of authority in order to carry out his will).

The Word Bearers are currently the most organised and united of the Chaos Legions, ruled from the Eye of Terror by the Dark Council, not comprised of individual warbands but as allied Hosts under a common authority and also devoid of schisms in regard to their differing allegiances to the gods, as they all serve the Dark Pantheon. The Word Bearers are to blame for the imperium's slow death, and Lorgar is ultimately responsible for the Imperial Cult, which is also the reason for his eventual betrayal (or enlightenment). Regarding their power, they may not have so much as the Warmaster Abbadon, but orchestrate countless cults on almost every world they have ever held possession of and (this is very important) maintain a firm grasp over their own legion. Most other legions have dispersed and separated into warbands led by volatile lords concerned only for their own goals (sometimes rival warbands of the same legion fight one another) while the Word Bearers are united by cause, belief and leadership.

That's just my five cents

The Imperium is responsible for its own stagnation, not the Word Bearers. While Lorgar tried to start Emperor worship, the Emperor stopped him. The High Lords started the Imperial Cult hundreds of years later to keep the Imperium in line. The only dispersed Legions are the World eaters, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Emperor's Children. The Alpha Legion set up and use just as many cults as the Word Bearers, and the activities of the gods' chosen legions sustain them more than a group worshipping all of them together.

I'm not sure about the Horus=pawn thing, but it seems unlikely IMO.

Durza wrote:

Deathly Angel wrote:I think that the Word Bearers would be the most accomplished, perhaps slightly less powerful; than the Black Legion.

While most people would percieve the Black Legion as the most successful, we must remember that it was the Kor Phaeron and Erebus that instigated the Horus Heresy. While they failed to destroy the Imperium, perhaps that was not their ultimate intent. Before the heresy, relatively few within the human race(s) knew of the existence of the Chaos Gods let alone worshipped them. The ruinous powers probably needed more energy from mortal emotions in order to survive, and the trillions of lives of the new imperium would provide enough worship in order to sustain them. After the heresy the imperium was saturated with cults offering them strength, and the threat that the Emporer himself posed was ostensibly eradicated. Erebus and Kor Phaeron, and in turn the legion itself, are pawns of Chaos that have been instrumental in ensuring the survival and improved sustenance of their dark masters, whether wittingly in or not. In this sense the Word Bearers, or at least their overlords, have been more successful than the Black Legion ever was (Horus was a tool to be manipulated by Erebus in order to act as a figurehead and a source of authority in order to carry out his will).

The Word Bearers are currently the most organised and united of the Chaos Legions, ruled from the Eye of Terror by the Dark Council, not comprised of individual warbands but as allied Hosts under a common authority and also devoid of schisms in regard to their differing allegiances to the gods, as they all serve the Dark Pantheon. The Word Bearers are to blame for the imperium's slow death, and Lorgar is ultimately responsible for the Imperial Cult, which is also the reason for his eventual betrayal (or enlightenment). Regarding their power, they may not have so much as the Warmaster Abbadon, but orchestrate countless cults on almost every world they have ever held possession of and (this is very important) maintain a firm grasp over their own legion. Most other legions have dispersed and separated into warbands led by volatile lords concerned only for their own goals (sometimes rival warbands of the same legion fight one another) while the Word Bearers are united by cause, belief and leadership.

That's just my five cents

The Imperium is responsible for its own stagnation, not the Word Bearers. While Lorgar tried to start Emperor worship, the Emperor stopped him. The High Lords started the Imperial Cult hundreds of years later to keep the Imperium in line. The only dispersed Legions are the World eaters, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Emperor's Children. The Alpha Legion set up and use just as many cults as the Word Bearers, and the activities of the gods' chosen legions sustain them more than a group worshipping all of them together.

I'm not sure about the Horus=pawn thing, but it seems unlikely IMO.

A few things. The Imperium has stagnated because of The Heresy. Which Legion started it? The Word Bearers. Which Legion IS responsible for The Imperial Cult? The Word Bearers. Lorgar wrote the Imperiums Bible and started the worship of The Emperor as a god amongst the people. There are nine Traitor Legion. All of them have largely dispersed barring three, the Word Bearers, The Iron Warriors and The Black Legion. The rest are split up into small warbands and hosts, serving their own agendas. I'm sorry if you can't admit that The Word Bearers have done some pretty decent things.

Durza wrote:The Imperium is responsible for its own stagnation, not the Word Bearers. While Lorgar tried to start Emperor worship, the Emperor stopped him. The High Lords started the Imperial Cult hundreds of years later to keep the Imperium in line. The only dispersed Legions are the World eaters, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Emperor's Children. The Alpha Legion set up and use just as many cults as the Word Bearers, and the activities of the gods' chosen legions sustain them more than a group worshipping all of them together.

I'm not sure about the Horus=pawn thing, but it seems unlikely IMO.

Lorgar wrote the document that became the basis of the Imperial cult. The idea of the Emperor's divinity started spreading during the Heresy. The High Lords merely adopted it. I'd put Word Bearers after Black Legion.


World Eaters = completely shattered, random bands of berserkers
Emperor's Children = completely shattered, random bands of thrill-seekers
Night Lords = completely shattered, random bands of murderers and sadists
Thousand Sons = only about a thousand survived the transition to the Planet of the Sorcerers, Rubric culls most of those (in Battle for the Fang, the remnant brings along 600-700 Rubric marines, so there are a few hundred sorcerers left at best), and their best and brightest have been exiled and are pursuing their own agenda
Iron Warriors = united, but lost "thousands" of warriors on Damantyne and then again in their failed attempt to crush Ultramar
Death Guard = splintered as Typhon and other Captains fly around doing their own thing, although it all comes down to spreading Nurgle's love around
Alpha Legion = I am Alpharius. Your mom is also Alpharius. Oh, and your dog, he's Alpharius too.

The Word bearers are the ones responsible for the Imperial Cult. It's based on Lorgar's book and it was mainly his actions that allowed it to survive. If he hadn't supported it the Emperor would still be around and would have stopped it.

Why are the World Eaters lower than the BL? Their attacks get further than abbadons crusades, plus Angron is the only primarch actually doing anything. His attacks are infrequent but they are a serious threat- look what happened to the GKs when they tried to stop him last time.

I'm almost positive there is a direct quote in either the 3rd ed chaos codex or IA that states "Horus was used as a pawn of the gods." As far as the Thousand Sons warbands other than Ahriman they really have nothing going on other than selling themselves to other legions causes. The Alpha Legion apparently aren't so awesome either one of their primarchs got smacked down by guillman and the lack of evidence of actions by them doesn't mean they're awesome if were using that theory the Iron Hands kick ass ike no other.

Also +1 to the guy who mentioned the Emperors Children crippling Guillman



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm almost positive there is a direct quote in either the 3rd ed chaos codex or IA that states "Horus was used as a pawn of the gods." As far as the Thousand Sons warbands other than Ahriman they really have nothing going on other than selling themselves to other legions causes. The Alpha Legion apparently aren't so awesome either one of their primarchs got smacked down by guillman and the lack of evidence of actions by them doesn't mean they're awesome if were using that theory the Iron Hands kick ass ike no other.

Also +1 to the guy who mentioned the Emperors Children crippling Guillman

inharntdispoile wrote:Hi guys me and my friend are trying to create chaos armies and we wanted you guys opinion on which legion to theme it after, and we wanted to theme based on the most powerful actual gameplay wise and flluff wise as well.

IMHO i feel that gameplay wise it i think that the Thousand sons is are pretty decent, but haven't seemed to do much fluff wise, so if if could get as many outside opinons as possible i would really appreciate it

lets just say the black legion are the chaos version of the ultrasmufs

just my two cents...

I'd have to agree with the idea that the Black Legion is the most powerful. Despite the perceived inadequacies of Abaddon and the Black Crusades, the Black Legion are amongst the largest and most organised of the remaining Legions whilst arguably also being the most active of the (intact) Legions.
Similarly, the Black Legion receive the favour of all of the Chaos gods it seems.
It probably should be pointed out that they were very near collapse at one point however.

I think it should be said that the Word Bearers could arguably be the most powerful due to how they maintain the majority of the heresy-era size and organisation and therefore haven't divided as much as other Legions.

Eliliketheanchor wrote:I'm almost positive there is a direct quote in either the 3rd ed chaos codex or IA that states "Horus was used as a pawn of the gods." As far as the Thousand Sons warbands other than Ahriman they really have nothing going on other than selling themselves to other legions causes. The Alpha Legion apparently aren't so awesome either one of their primarchs got smacked down by guillman and the lack of evidence of actions by them doesn't mean they're awesome if were using that theory the Iron Hands kick ass ike no other.

Also +1 to the guy who mentioned the Emperors Children crippling Guillman

As much as I am a fan of Guilliman and his Legion, he did not kill Alpharius. Even the Ultramarines do not believe he killed Alpharius. Also, there is plenty of evidence of the Alpha Legion's activities. Pretty much any major insurrection, rebellion, outbreak of Chaos worship, etc. can be traced to an Alpha Legion demagogue of some sort or another. The rest are the work of Recongregationists and/or Istvaanists, with a small left-over margin being genuinely driven by the native population.

A greater daemon making an utter pathetic tool out of Fulgrim (that pansy), does not = "Emperor's children crippling Guilliman".

i would say that the Black Legion is the most successful. being able to unite the legions and launch 13 separate crusades is pretty impressive, ince none have been able to do something like that before.

I'd honestly say Alpha Legion because so little is known about them.

That's amazing reasoning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoneLictor wrote:

4M2A wrote:

Also, if we count in the Word Bearer's actions during the Horus Heresy, then I'd rate them as Number 5 or higher. I was just rating their accomplishments after the Heresy. They haven't done much beyond set up cults and take place in the Black Crusades, which almost every other Legion has down since then.

Huh?

If we rate them including actions during the heresy then it is definately the Word bearers are easily number 1 seeing that they started the heresy.

They started it but without the other Legions it would've gone nowhere. They'd probably be number 2 if we include stuff during the Heresy. Also, the Word Bearer thing is only my opinion. From my perspective it looks like they've become content to stay in the Eye of Terror and worship the Chaos Gods rather than attempt to overtake the Imperium.

ALL Legions want to take the fight to The Imperium, the Word Bearers are more active in this than any other barring the Black Legion. Only those two and the Iron Warriors are unified, they DO go out of The Eye and fight, it's just that their unity means that some people think they do nothing unless the entire Legion mobilizes.

Seaward wrote:It's important to remember that Legions don't really exist any more as organizations; warbands are the way Chaos operates. The Black Legion is the closest to retaining its pre-Heresy cohesiveness, but even it's nowhere near the regimented, organized entity it once was.

The Black Legion's definitely both the most powerful and most accomplished, however. People like to give Abaddon guff because of his perceived failures, but bear in mind he assaulted and successfully took 60% of the most heavily defended planet outside of Terra itself. If Cadia falls, Chaos can beeline right for Terra unimpeded. If Cadia falls, Chaos wins. And Abaddon's got over half the planet.

Excuse me but ins"t Fenris in the way?

it can be avoided, but just reaching Sol doenst mean instant victory for chaos.

they have to defeat the two most heavily fortified and fanatically defended worlds in the Imperium. Mars is likely defended by insane amounts of Titans, and Terra is a planet-wide temple (likely very defensible) and any invader will have HORDES of every subset of the imperium- inquisition, space marine, imp guard, SoB, Mechanicus, flocking in defence of Holy Terra.

they will likely abandon many worlds in the rush, so even if the imperium drives off chaos from terra, they will find that vast swathes of the Imperium has fallen. that, is suppose, would be the ultimate goal of attacking terra- drawing away the entire Imperial army to one system.

What about it? One moderately defended planet is nothing to an entire Black Crusade. If Abbaddon can take Cadia, Fenris isn't going to be a problem.
Also, this conception that if Abbaddon takes Cadia, he can go straight to Terra is false. He can take the surface, but hes trapped on it, as the navy controls the skies and space. In addition, assaulting the most heavily defended system in the galaxy straight after bludgeoning your forces on a system like The Cadian Gate is idiotic at best. There are likely many, many other objectives The Despoiler has to fulfill before going for the Sol System. Keep in mind that even Horus, with all his forces went through a stupid amount of planning and plotting to manufacture the best situation possible for assaulting Terra, and even then he failed.

iproxtaco wrote:What about it? One moderately defended planet is nothing to an entire Black Crusade. If Abbaddon can take Cadia, Fenris isn't going to be a problem.
Also, this conception that if Abbaddon takes Cadia, he can go straight to Terra is false. He can take the surface, but hes trapped on it, as the navy controls the skies and space. In addition, assaulting the most heavily defended system in the galaxy straight after bludgeoning your forces on a system like The Cadian Gate is idiotic at best. There are likely many, many other objectives The Despoiler has to fulfill before going for the Sol System. Keep in mind that even Horus, with all his forces went through a stupid amount of planning and plotting to manufacture the best situation possible for assaulting Terra, and even then he failed.

I have to second 'taco here, except for his comment regarding Fenris being moderately defended (extremely powerful fortress, around 2000 veteran Marines, Fenris itself, the non-astartes forces and the power of the SW's themselves mean it's no pushover; the TS vs. a single company couldn't manage it), but that's a story for another time.

Should Abaddon manage to take Cadia, as 'taco said he's got the Imperial Navy to get through (although he does have the Black Fortresses), Craftworld Ulthwe', numerous other Imperial planets etc. and it's not a simple walk to Terra let alone being able to do anything about it if he reaches Terra.

Compared to Cadia, I'd say Fenris isn't anything close to being that well defended. I didn't say Fenris isn't well defended in it's own right, but to be fair, it's not likely going to slow Abbaddon down that much.

iproxtaco wrote:What about it? One moderately defended planet is nothing to an entire Black Crusade. If Abbaddon can take Cadia, Fenris isn't going to be a problem.
Also, this conception that if Abbaddon takes Cadia, he can go straight to Terra is false. He can take the surface, but hes trapped on it, as the navy controls the skies and space. In addition, assaulting the most heavily defended system in the galaxy straight after bludgeoning your forces on a system like The Cadian Gate is idiotic at best. There are likely many, many other objectives The Despoiler has to fulfill before going for the Sol System. Keep in mind that even Horus, with all his forces went through a stupid amount of planning and plotting to manufacture the best situation possible for assaulting Terra, and even then he failed.

The imperial navy doesn't control the skies over Cadia ( as described in the 13. Black Crusade backgroundbook ), at least not in a way that allows 100% interdiction.
Quarren's fleet was badly mauled when he and the Eldar drove off the Blackstone fortress and fleet movements as well as communications were hampered by a number of warpstorms around the
Cadian gate. With the other points i agree, even the loss of Cadia wouldn't mean that the route to Terra is open. What it would mean is a highly increased amount of Chaos raids and large scale attacks troughout the entire Segmentum which might, in time, destabilize it enough to make Imperial rule in that part of space increasingly difficult.

Most summaries I have seen of the campaign note that the Imperium controls the skies and the space around Cadia itself, with Abbaddons forces controlling the majority of the surface. Communications are hampered by warp storms summoned by Erebus, and the Blackstone Fortress as well as the Planet Killer survive, whilst not taking an active roll currently.

iproxtaco wrote:Most summaries I have seen of the campaign note that the Imperium controls the skies and the space around Cadia itself, with Abbaddons forces controlling the majority of the surface. Communications are hampered by warp storms summoned by Erebus, and the Blackstone Fortress as well as the Planet Killer survive, whilst not taking an active roll currently.

After reading the 13th black crusade after action report some time ago, I took it as meaning that the Chaos forces controlled the skies and most of the surface of Cadia but had lost the space lanes, as in they have ships around the planet but they are kinda stuck on the orbit because of the surrounding space being controlled by the Imperium. I might remember that one wrong though.

Just Dave wrote:I have to second 'taco here, except for his comment regarding Fenris being moderately defended (extremely powerful fortress, around 2000 veteran Marines, Fenris itself, the non-astartes forces and the power of the SW's themselves mean it's no pushover; the TS vs. a single company couldn't manage it), but that's a story for another time.

If Abaddon attacked Fenris, it would go very differently. All of the Wolves' combat prowess would be meaningless, as it would be a battle fought in space. The Wolves' fleets vs. Abaddon's. Once sufficient air superiority had been achieved, Blackstone Fortress meets Fang. Fang goes bye bye.

Which is the most powerful or most accomplished of the traitor legions?

Space Wolves.

What you mean in Battle of the Fang:



If so, I'm shocked.

Imagine what the World Eaters and Emperor's Children could do if their Primarchs got off their asses and reunited their legions (well, what's left of them). A poor showing by the traitor primarchs indeed.

well, Angron (World Eaters) DOES get off his ass occasionally, but eventually gets banished and as to hang in the warp for 101 years.

Angron started the Reign of Blood (or was that fire?) and the First Armageddon War, and a few other major invasions where hordes of daemons and World Eaters rampaged around.

Dont know about the Emperor's Children's primarch, though. whats his name again?

SickSix wrote:Which is the most powerful or most accomplished of the traitor legions?

Space Wolves.

ZING!

Blackhoof wrote:well, Angron (World Eaters) DOES get off his ass occasionally, but eventually gets banished and as to hang in the warp for 1001 years.

Angron started the Reign of Blood (or was that fire?) and the First Armageddon War, and a few other major invasions where hordes of daemons and World Eaters rampaged around.

Dont know about the Emperor's Children's primarch, though. whats his name again?

Fixed that. Daemonic banishment lasts 1001 years.

Angron is also the only primarch on record to die to anything less than another primarch.

Fulgrim hangs out being emo and regretting killing his brother.

It's 101 years.
And Fulgrim is trapped inside his own mutated body, watching the atrocities the Daemon that has possessed him commits. The Daemon hangs around Slannesh, enjoying himself, not brooding over his mistake.

Omegus wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I have to second 'taco here, except for his comment regarding Fenris being moderately defended (extremely powerful fortress, around 2000 veteran Marines, Fenris itself, the non-astartes forces and the power of the SW's themselves mean it's no pushover; the TS vs. a single company couldn't manage it), but that's a story for another time.

Spoiler:

They DID manage it. They breached the gates, killed all but 12-13 of the Company (including the Wolf Lord, Priest, et al and several dreadnoughts), ran hogwild through the Fang, and achieved their primary objective of destroying the purified gene-seed. Oh, and then Magnus killed the Great Wolf. The only reason the Wolves didn't come back to a smoking ruin where the Fang was, was because the entire fleet had come back early due to that one scout's warning, and at that point the Thousand Sons just bailed.

If Abaddon attacked Fenris, it would go very differently. All of the Wolves' combat prowess would be meaningless, as it would be a battle fought in space. The Wolves' fleets vs. Abaddon's. Once sufficient air superiority had been achieved, Blackstone Fortress meets Fang. Fang goes bye bye.

I'd actually say they didn't manage it;
As for Abaddon using the Blackstone Fortress'; if that was the case why hasn't he used one on cadia yet?

Just Dave wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I have to second 'taco here, except for his comment regarding Fenris being moderately defended (extremely powerful fortress, around 2000 veteran Marines, Fenris itself, the non-astartes forces and the power of the SW's themselves mean it's no pushover; the TS vs. a single company couldn't manage it), but that's a story for another time.

Spoiler:

They DID manage it. They breached the gates, killed all but 12-13 of the Company (including the Wolf Lord, Priest, et al and several dreadnoughts), ran hogwild through the Fang, and achieved their primary objective of destroying the purified gene-seed. Oh, and then Magnus killed the Great Wolf. The only reason the Wolves didn't come back to a smoking ruin where the Fang was, was because the entire fleet had come back early due to that one scout's warning, and at that point the Thousand Sons just bailed.

If Abaddon attacked Fenris, it would go very differently. All of the Wolves' combat prowess would be meaningless, as it would be a battle fought in space. The Wolves' fleets vs. Abaddon's. Once sufficient air superiority had been achieved, Blackstone Fortress meets Fang. Fang goes bye bye.

I'd actually say they didn't manage it;

Spoiler:

they breached (and somewhat defiled) the fang, but they in no way did they remove the threat of the Space Wolves or Fenris. The fortress can be rebuilt, the losses were large for astartes but still a small proportion of the chapter and were arguably less costly than those of the TS.
The (pretty much entire) Thousand Sons Legion killed less than a 12th of the Space Wolves and took large casualties in doing so. They did breach the fang and almost annihilate a great company and the mortal soldiers, but it still remains that the Space Wolves emerged largely intact and as a result are one of the most prominent and notorious Space Marine Chapters.
It's true, they did ruin the (largely - not a finished process) purified geneseed and managed to enter the fang and cripple a great company, but the Thousand Sons suffered more numerous casualties (that are surely harder to recover from - recruitment?!), failed to destroy the Wolves or even cripple them and very nearly lost their primarch.

As for Abaddon using the Blackstone Fortress'; if that was the case why hasn't he used one on cadia yet?

He did. forcing it to disengage cost Quarren the bulk of his fleet and Eldrad his life.

It also cost Abaddon the Blackstone Fortress in question and the Planet-Killer had to be pulled out of Cadia's space as the Ultramarine Honor Company(Made up of the Ultramarine Successors and a small number of Ultramarines themselves) boarded and crippled it, at the cost of their own lives.

Noisy_Marine wrote:What you mean in Battle of the Fang:

Spoiler:

Magnus gets off his ass and fights?

If so, I'm shocked.

Imagine what the World Eaters and Emperor's Children could do if their Primarchs got off their asses and reunited their legions (well, what's left of them). A poor showing by the traitor primarchs indeed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:I'd actually say they didn't manage it;

Spoiler:

they breached (and somewhat defiled) the fang, but they in no way did they remove the threat of the Space Wolves or Fenris. The fortress can be rebuilt, the losses were large for astartes but still a small proportion of the chapter and were arguably less costly than those of the TS.
The (pretty much entire) Thousand Sons Legion killed less than a 12th of the Space Wolves and took large casualties in doing so. They did breach the fang and almost annihilate a great company and the mortal soldiers, but it still remains that the Space Wolves emerged largely intact and as a result are one of the most prominent and notorious Space Marine Chapters.
It's true, they did ruin the (largely - not a finished process) purified geneseed and managed to enter the fang and cripple a great company, but the Thousand Sons suffered more numerous casualties (that are surely harder to recover from - recruitment?!), failed to destroy the Wolves or even cripple them and very nearly lost their primarch.

1. The geneseed was the main objective, they basically turned around and left as soon as it was achieved.
2. They would have been able to raze Fang to the ground ala Prospero if the rest of the SW fleet didn't come back weeks earlier than expected.
3. Magnus is a daemon prince at this point, there is no way to "lose" him. Worst case scenario is he gets sent back home to the Planet of the Sorcerers.

For what it's worth, I recently read the Battle of the Fang, and I thought it was a load of window-dressing on a very stereotypical plot arc. The evil guys attacked the good guys' fortress with overwhelming force, were stalled by heroic resistance, and then totally defeated by good guy reinforcements. Despite all the details about destroying genetic material, etc, the impression I got was that the Thousand Sons had a perfect plan, the resources, the leadership, the numbers - and they still lost, because they're not the good guys! It made them seem oddly pathetic.

And this is the central problem with all the 'dark power' type villains in fiction. Even in a grim dark future, you know they're never actually going to win.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:For what it's worth, I recently read the Battle of the Fang, and I thought it was a load of window-dressing on a very stereotypical plot arc. The evil guys attacked the good guys' fortress with overwhelming force, were stalled by heroic resistance, and then totally defeated by good guy reinforcements. Despite all the details about destroying genetic material, etc, the impression I got was that the Thousand Sons had a perfect plan, the resources, the leadership, the numbers - and they still lost, because they're not the good guys! It made them seem oddly pathetic.

And this is the central problem with all the 'dark power' type villains in fiction. Even in a grim dark future, you know they're never actually going to win.

They completed their main objective so I think it was a win

The Black Legions CAN never, and WILL never be successful, by virtue of failbaddon /conversation

hey, have YOU united the legions of chaos and lead 13 crusades that have each come close to destabilising an entire segmentum lately?

no?

then shut up lol

Blackhoof wrote:hey, have YOU united the legions of chaos and lead 13 crusades that have each come close to destabilising an entire segmentum lately?

no?

then shut up lol

he has failed 13/13 with the backing of all four Chaos Gods, legions of superhumans warriors, daemons and The Lost and the Damned, and what's more he's being turned away by ONE planet every single time. The only one that did ANYTHING was #5, and only because DOOMBREED decided to kill two whole chapters.

While other legions are cooler, I'd have to agree that the black legion is the most successful due to the 13 crusades stated above against the imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:hey, have YOU united the legions of chaos and lead 13 crusades that have each come close to destabilising an entire segmentum lately?

no?

then shut up lol

he has failed 13/13 with the backing of all four Chaos Gods, legions of superhumans warriors, daemons and The Lost and the Damned, and what's more he's being turned away by ONE planet every single time. The only one that did ANYTHING was #5, and only because DOOMBREED decided to kill two whole chapters.

He's outnumbered by a lot and has to get through the most heavily guarded planet in Warhammer 40k! Let that sink in. And the 12th Crusade was a success (he gained two Blackstone Fortresses adn the Planet Killer whereas the Imperium and Eldar only lost stuff) and the 13th Crusade is a success so far too.

Kanluwen wrote:It also cost Abaddon the Blackstone Fortress in question and the Planet-Killer had to be pulled out of Cadia's space as the Ultramarine Honor Company(Made up of the Ultramarine Successors and a small number of Ultramarines themselves) boarded and crippled it, at the cost of their own lives.

Yet another Ultramarine style victory.

Omegus wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:What you mean in Battle of the Fang:

Spoiler:

Magnus gets off his ass and fights?

If so, I'm shocked.

Imagine what the World Eaters and Emperor's Children could do if their Primarchs got off their asses and reunited their legions (well, what's left of them). A poor showing by the traitor primarchs indeed.

Spoiler:

Yes, he does. He possesses one of his lieutenants in order to enter material space and strides through the Fang pwning face. He bleeds what's left of his Legion dry in order to stop the Wolves from creating an Ultramar-sized Empire that would forever surround the Eye and keep Chaos contained. Of course, none of the other Wolves really care about such long-term concepts, and the Great Wolf gleefully dies in exchange for making Magnus go "ow" one time.

Just Dave wrote:I'd actually say they didn't manage it;

Spoiler:

they breached (and somewhat defiled) the fang, but they in no way did they remove the threat of the Space Wolves or Fenris. The fortress can be rebuilt, the losses were large for astartes but still a small proportion of the chapter and were arguably less costly than those of the TS.
The (pretty much entire) Thousand Sons Legion killed less than a 12th of the Space Wolves and took large casualties in doing so. They did breach the fang and almost annihilate a great company and the mortal soldiers, but it still remains that the Space Wolves emerged largely intact and as a result are one of the most prominent and notorious Space Marine Chapters.
It's true, they did ruin the (largely - not a finished process) purified geneseed and managed to enter the fang and cripple a great company, but the Thousand Sons suffered more numerous casualties (that are surely harder to recover from - recruitment?!), failed to destroy the Wolves or even cripple them and very nearly lost their primarch.

1. The geneseed was the main objective, they basically turned around and left as soon as it was achieved.
2. They would have been able to raze Fang to the ground ala Prospero if the rest of the SW fleet didn't come back weeks earlier than expected.
3. Magnus is a daemon prince at this point, there is no way to "lose" him. Worst case scenario is he gets sent back home to the Planet of the Sorcerers.

See, it's when you say things like " strides through the Fang pwning face", " none of the other Wolves really care about such long-term concepts" and " in exchange for making Magnus go "ow" one time." that I realise that it isn't worth debating this as neither side is going to concede their opinions so I'm not going to bother arguing this.

I will finish my point in saying, that yes, the Geneseed was Magnus' main objective; but IIRC the majority of the TS were left unaware of this and simply wanted vengeance whilst regarding the thread they were actually talking about the destruction of the Chapter. Chances are they would've turned and left even if they hadn't destroyed the geneseed when the remainder of the Space Wolves arrived; that was the death knell for their attempts. Finally, Magnus can be killed (i.e. he can be lost), but typically banishment would occur instead.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:hey, have YOU united the legions of chaos and lead 13 crusades that have each come close to destabilising an entire segmentum lately?

no?

then shut up lol

he has failed 13/13 with the backing of all four Chaos Gods, legions of superhumans warriors, daemons and The Lost and the Damned, and what's more he's being turned away by ONE planet every single time. The only one that did ANYTHING was #5, and only because DOOMBREED decided to kill two whole chapters.

11 Failed Crusades actually. And when you remember that Abbaddon does not outnumber his foe, and does not lead all the forces of Chaos, you can understand why. The Cadian Gate is not a single planet, or even a single system, it's a group of systems composed of Fortress Worlds, Garrison Worlds and shipyards. Defending it are the finest Imperial Guard regiments in the galaxy, trained from childhood to protect their homes. There are fleets that rival those around Terra in power, and there are a large number of Space Marine chapters created solely to guard The Eye. Plot Armour and generic Good vs. Evil storylines aside, the Cadian Gate is not a hastily erected defense manned by some back water Penal Regiment, it is DESIGNED to halt Chaos. For nigh on 8000 years it has stood, desperately throwing back the hordes of Chaos in 13 Black Crusades, each victory costing more lives and pushing The Imperium to breaking point. This last Crusade, the most powerful and opportune of them all, has breached Cadia itself, the forces of Abbaddon control the most of its surface, and raising many planets in the nearby systems, crippling the fleet and causing a huge amount of resources to be diverted to the Gates defense. For all intents and purposes, The 13th Black Crusade has nearly succeeded, and has not yet come to a conclusion. It's more likely that Abbaddon will take Cadia, than he will be pushed back.

^^ this

That is honestly what chaos needs, I want them to make it past Cadia. If Abbadon ever got past Cadia it would make amazing fluff for the otherwise dry chaos space marines, and 40k will finally have a major bad guy

they have tons of major bad guys.
-necrons 'slowly awakening'
-tyranid hivefleets gradually get stronger
-tau rapidly expanding and evolving technologically
-orks uniting under ghazghul and are unstoppable
-chaos getting closer and closer with every crusade to breaking through the cadian gate

They currently have two major bad guys, Chaos and the Orkz. They rest are potential threats, and currently aren't anything to be concerned about in the present. The Tau on the other hand, are a footnote on the galactic page, they might as well no even exist compared to Chaos or the Orkz.

I meant like one major bad guy not entire races, someone who embodies everything mankind hates abbadon I think was a failed attempt

From his appearences in fluff, I agree. Any of the Daemon Primarchs would make a better figure-head, without doing much. I may sound fanboyish, but Lorgar embodies everything humanity hates. He was once a loyal protector, now he's a traitor, he worships Chaos etc....

What about dark eldar ?

If I were to pick one of the characters already in 40k it would probably be Lorgar too. He was always more of a figure head than a leader for his legion too, not that he couldn't lead too.

What Lorgar needs is fleshing out. He just needs that extra bit to show how he became worthy of Daemonhood.

Yeah I wish Lorgar got fleshed out a bit, he seems bad-ass but there is not much about why he is a demon prince. Aaron Dembski-Bowden called : Aurelian

Lorgar? the first time i heard of him was in DOWark Crusade and he was only mentioned twice- once as a piece of wargear and once saying that he had ordered the invasion.

kinda weak for a "face" for evil, isnt it?

i think abaddon works. he has failed, true, but what bad guy ever succeeds? he has the balls to launch an invasion of the second most heavily defended sector in the galaxy, and WASNT immediately slaughtered. is an abiding threat for the imperium and will never truly die, no matter how hard the imperials try (and they HAVE tried- the best assassins they have have been sent agaisnt abby and his lieutenants, and they failed.)

Would have to agree that the Black Legion are the most accomplished. Iron Warriors next maybe and then Word Bearers. But even they have there issues and aren't as coherent a force as the Black Legion, with more than their fair share of internal squabbles.

The majority of the traitor forces are little more than warbands now, but Abaddon is leader enough to pull these under his wing.

Has Abaddon failed though, or has he achieved what he set out to do in that specific Black Crusade? He's got an eternity to get to Terra, I'm pretty sure he could get to Terra as it is, if he really wanted to, but he would get his ass handed too him. I think it's a case of getting his eggs all in one basket.

Now he has a foothold on Cadia and he's got some Blackstone fortresses still, maybe, I wouldn't count Abaddon out yet. He's in it for the long game.

Blackhoof wrote:Lorgar? the first time i heard of him was in DOWark Crusade and he was only mentioned twice- once as a piece of wargear and once saying that he had ordered the invasion.

kinda weak for a "face" for evil, isnt it?

i think abaddon works. he has failed, true, but what bad guy ever succeeds? he has the balls to launch an invasion of the second most heavily defended sector in the galaxy, and WASNT immediately slaughtered. is an abiding threat for the imperium and will never truly die, no matter how hard the imperials try (and they HAVE tried- the best assassins they have have been sent agaisnt abby and his lieutenants, and they failed.)

This is why we would need him fleshed out first. All the fluff we do have points to him being "the face" for chaos.

Does it matter how powerful any of them are? They're so far down the scale of threats to the galaxy that they don't even rank.

Yes, Chaos is a threat. The traitor marines are not on their own. There simply aren't enough of them to matter.

Power isn't the only question but hey, ignore that. I'd say a force of Chaos led by the traitor legions that could breach the Cadian Gate is fairly high on the priority list next to the galactic footnotes that are the Necrons, Tyranids and The Tau. Renegade PDF are more of a concern that those three.

This topic is about the legions only. Not any other forces they can muster.

They're the driving force behind it, they lead it, they're the main fighting force of the attack on the Cadian Gate, which has nearly succeeded. I'd still say they're fairly high on the priority list.

Lorgar is a pansy. Read 'First Heretic'. If it wasn't for Curze he'd be dead.

I think someone is missing something, like the capability to read the thread.

iproxtaco wrote:I think someone is missing something, like the capability to read the thread.