I'm not very informed with the fluff of the Gray Knights, so if this is a really dumb question sorry about that
Anyways is it possible for Gray Knights to turn to chaos? You here a lot about renegade's so is it at all possible(or ever happened) for a Gray Knight to succumb to the forces of chaos? If not is their a given reason why?
No they can't turn to Chaos, they are incorruptible as others have stated.
Since you mentioned it, here's a particularly helpful link that may fulfil all your fluff needs:
http://www.lexicanum.com/
Nothing is impossible with Chaos! Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't! There is no record of any Grey Knight falling to Chaos...YET! But, like everything in regards to Chaos, corruption is inevitable!! And it has nothing but time!!
ToBeWilly wrote:Nothing is impossible with Chaos! Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't! There is no record of any Grey Knight falling to Chaos...YET! But, like everything in regards to Chaos, corruption is inevitable!! And it has nothing but time!!
Kazerkinelite wrote:I'm not very informed with the fluff of the Gray Knights, so if this is a really dumb question sorry about that
Anyways is it possible for Gray Knights to turn to chaos? You here a lot about renegade's so is it at all possible(or ever happened) for a Gray Knight to succumb to the forces of chaos? If not is their a given reason why?
100% impossible. Their psychological conditioning makes it literally impossible for them to fall. Their brains would break before they did. They are covered in hexagrammic wards that would incinerate their bones if they fell to chaos. They are 100% chaos-proof in mind and spirit.
Kazerkinelite wrote:I'm not very informed with the fluff of the Gray Knights, so if this is a really dumb question sorry about that
Anyways is it possible for Gray Knights to turn to chaos? You here a lot about renegade's so is it at all possible(or ever happened) for a Gray Knight to succumb to the forces of chaos? If not is their a given reason why?
100% impossible. Their psychological conditioning makes it literally impossible for them to fall. Their brains would break before they did. They are covered in hexagrammic wards that would incinerate their bones if they fell to chaos. They are 100% chaos-proof in mind and spirit.
They just need a little blood to fix them up for a bit. Just ask the Sisters of Battle.
No...they just haven't been corrupted yet. Nothing is 100% certain in 40k.
ph34r wrote:100% impossible. Their psychological conditioning makes it literally impossible for them to fall. Their brains would break before they did. They are covered in hexagrammic wards that would incinerate their bones if they fell to chaos. They are 100% chaos-proof in mind and spirit.
Again, nothing is 100% certain in 40k. They are well protected, certainly, but not infallible. They need to believe they are 100% protected, for doubt would be the first crack in the armour.
Durza wrote:It's never been recorded as happening, but nothing is impossible.
Tru dat. You're all on the "It can't happen" bandwagon. Until the latest Black Library book comes out where Draigo and Brother-Captain Stern are chasing Draigo's honour guard around the warp because they got turned by Slaneesh or Khorne. Then you're all on another bandwagon. This is fiction, and an ever changing one at that. Don't be so closed minded.
Durza wrote:It's never been recorded as happening, but nothing is impossible.
Tru dat. You're all on the "It can't happen" bandwagon. Until the latest Black Library book comes out where Draigo and Brother-Captain Stern are chasing Draigo's honour guard around the warp because they got turned by Slaneesh or Khorne. Then you're all on another bandwagon. This is fiction, and an ever changing one at that. Don't be so closed minded.
-MightyG
Considering that it's the most fundamental, defining part of the Grey Knights fluff I'd say it's pretty rigid. Breaking it would be like having the Mechanicus throw away an STC printout. Sure, it could happen, but the fluff would have to be seriously maimed in order for something like that to take place.
Even if some GK fell to chaos, no one would ever call them on it because no one would believe it. And if no one declares them chaos, they can't ever be chaos. Kind of a tree falling in the forest thing. Maybe..
coolyo294 wrote:The day GW makes a Chaos GK army is the day I leave this hobby. The very idea is just so colossally stupid that it hurts my brain thinking about it.
The day Necrons team up with another faction and part as friends is... wait...
Let's be honest, certain individuals who shall remain nameless have seriously punched the fluff in the face and could easily do so again. Now, I agree that the Grey Knights are 100% pure and cannot be corrupted. But that can change... Maybe the next Black Templar codex will feature the BTs working with Tyranids to fight Khornate Grey Knights.
So yes, Grey Knights are 100% pure. No they cannot be corrupted without the aid of some serious fluff wrecking.
Isn't it part of their fluff that none of them have ever fallen to Chaos and, yet, each one dreads being "the first"?
Their minds and spirits are incorruptible, true. Their flesh is not, but corrupting their flesh gains Chaos no allies, just a Marine that fights unto his last breath, a frothing pile of tentacles and eye-stalks.
That said... it's not impossible, just exceedingly unlikely. More to the point, when/whoever "The First" will be, I don't think it will be because Chaos corrupted him, but because he makes the willing choice to serve the Ruinous Powers, for whatever plot-point is deemed appropriate when it happens. It will probably be in the manner depicted through a number of Radical Inquisitors and related fluff. "It is such a small thing, to fall..." and so forth. It won't be a single, major, epic event, but rather the culmination of choices, beliefs and practices that the GK chooses to undertake that lead, eventually, to his downfall... but this will be the subject of books, rather than some random rule tossed into a codex.
However, until such a thing happens... no, Grey Knights don't fall to Chaos, they're incorruptible.
ToBeWilly wrote:
Again, nothing is 100% certain in 40k. They are well protected, certainly, but not infallible. They need to believe they are 100% protected, for doubt would be the first crack in the armour.
The Emperor is actually an Ethereal, Eldar are actually mutated space marines, and Chaos is actually being puppeteered into strengthening the Imperium as we know it by a clever Inquisitor named Fred, destroying themselves in the process.
This statement makes no sense, is kind of lame, flies in the face of established fluff, and generally not accepted, but hey, nothing is 100% certain in 40k, right?
Also, for further discussion, here are the last two threads on "Chaos Grey Knights":
ToBeWilly wrote:Nothing is impossible with Chaos! Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't! There is no record of any Grey Knight falling to Chaos...YET! But, like everything in regards to Chaos, corruption is inevitable!! And it has nothing but time!!
Grey Knights can't be corrupted.
If Grey Knights cannot ever be corrupted by any means, how can Crowe and the Purifiers be even more uncorruptable? Even Garrow, the head of the most uncorruptable of the Grey Knights, is placed in "physical and spiritual peril" by his possession of the Blade of Antwyr. If he cannot be corrupted, how can he be in peril?
---
Chaos Grey Knights could always just be psychic CSM using gear designed to look like Grey Knight equipment just to mess with inquisitors. Make the normal Grey Knights doubt themselves, make the inquisitors begin to doubt the Grey Knights, make the Space Wolves doubt the inquisition even more, and reveal the Grey Knights to the Imperium at large. There could be considerable benefits to make fake Chaos "Grey Knights."
ToBeWilly wrote:Nothing is impossible with Chaos! Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't! There is no record of any Grey Knight falling to Chaos...YET! But, like everything in regards to Chaos, corruption is inevitable!! And it has nothing but time!!
Grey Knights can't be corrupted.
If Grey Knights cannot ever be corrupted by any means, how can Crowe and the Purifiers be even more uncorruptable? Even Garrow, the head of the most uncorruptable of the Grey Knights, is placed in "physical and spiritual peril" by his possession of the Blade of Antwyr. If he cannot be corrupted, how can he be in peril?
---
Chaos Grey Knights could always just be psychic CSM using gear designed to look like Grey Knight equipment just to mess with inquisitors. Make the normal Grey Knights doubt themselves, make the inquisitors begin to doubt the Grey Knights, make the Space Wolves doubt the inquisition even more, and reveal the Grey Knights to the Imperium at large. There could be considerable benefits to make fake Chaos "Grey Knights."
Lexicanum wrote:[The] Blade of Antwyr, a daemon sword that cannot be destroyed or wielded by a lesser mortal.
Crowe's wardenship of the Blade of Antwyr has brought him both physical and spiritual peril... Crowe must do psychic battle with the Blade itself, for it strives ever to tempt him with promises of power or bind his will with the blackest sorceries. As such, Crowe never draws upon the Blade's powers, relying instead on its physical properties and his own skill at arms.
Because the Grey Knights shouldn't even use Demon Weapons. Another FUN* piece of fluff we can attribute to an unnamed source.
*Warning, FUN is guaranteed to cause RAGE, RAGE is not FUN.
ph34r wrote:100% impossible. Their psychological conditioning makes it literally impossible for them to fall. Their brains would break before they did. They are covered in hexagrammic wards that would incinerate their bones if they fell to chaos. They are 100% chaos-proof in mind and spirit.
Again, nothing is 100% certain in 40k. They are well protected, certainly, but not infallible. They need to believe they are 100% protected, for doubt would be the first crack in the armour.
The GK book literally says that they are infallible and that it would be impossible for one to fall.
nomotog wrote:First rule of story telling: Nothing is impossible.
Second rule of story telling: Saying that something is impossible makes it more likely to happen.
Third rule of story telling: When the background says explicitly that their bones are inscribed with hexagrammic wards that are the complete anathema to chaos, then they cannot fall to chaos.
nomotog wrote:First rule of story telling: Nothing is impossible.
Second rule of story telling: Saying that something is impossible makes it more likely to happen.
Third rule of story telling: When the background says explicitly that their bones are inscribed with hexagrammic wards that are the complete anathema to chaos, then they cannot fall to chaos.
What fluff says they have the wards inscribed on their bones? Couldn't an apothecary (say Fabius the Fabulous) grind them off?
---
If the Purifiers are even more uncorruptable than regular Grey Knights, then the basic Grey Knights cannot be completely unccoruptable. If I have one kilogram of pure iron, you cannot find another kilogram of matter that is more iron by part.
What about the sword that Crowe uses? I didn't quite understand what Ward ment when he wrote Crowe in the codex. Did they give the sword to him because they had faith in that he won't be corupted or the fact that they didn't wanted it to get in the wrong hands? If it is because he can't be corupted, then does that mean if another Grey knight had the sword, they would have a high chance of turning to chaos? Also, wouldn't it be possible for infomation on Chaos Grey Knight be destroyed or locked away in a Vault because they didn't want others to know?
Lets just lay this to rest. GK can NOT, repeat NOT be corrupted. Their specialty is to fight Chaos, and that is all they do. If you send IG regiments to a Chaos infested world, some, of not most, will turn. If you send GK, NONE will turn to Chaos. That is how they work. If they even had the slightest chance to turn to Chaos, they would not exist.
forruner_mercy wrote:Lets just lay this to rest. GK can NOT, repeat NOT be corrupted. Their specialty is to fight Chaos, and that is all they do. If you send IG regiments to a Chaos infested world, some, of not most, will turn. If you send GK, NONE will turn to Chaos. That is how they work. If they even had the slightest chance to turn to Chaos, they would not exist.
Did you even bother to read the preceding posts? Repeating the same tired dogma adds nothing to the conversation.
If they can't be corrupted, then a certain heretical moron has made it extremely hard to discern an answer. They can't be corrupted, and then then Crowe comes along, the least corruptible of them all. Wait, if they can't be corrupted at all, why is he at a different level of incorruptibility?
Surely if the Grey Knights were incorruptible, their records wouldn't be completely secret. The Imperium says they are incorruptible. They also worship a man who tried to destroy religion.
Surely Chaos demons cant be persuaded to join the imperium, right? they are just demons to the bone, and are completely made of demon stuff, doesnt mean they cant go to the imperium, right?
/sarcasm
Automatically Appended Next Post: i want kharne, and abaddon in my SM army, they are SM technically right? whats to keep them from going back to the imperium, theres nothing thats guarenteed they wont!
Well, years ago I would have been firmly on the "nope, never" side as well, but with the new Codex ...
Obviously they can be corrupted if they need to undergo special rituals requiring "virgin blood" to prevent it. What do you think would have happened to the GK if there were no SoB to slaughter on that planet?
And no, I don't like it either. But it appears to be the new truth.*
(*: Though one could say it isn't actually new - it is very easy to just regard this not as a retcon but as an expansion of the old fluff: "Grey Knights are incorruptible ... because they have mastered the technique of warding themselves with the blood of innocents.")
There is debate whether that corruption would have been of a spiritual nature, or of the "holy crap my face is melting and my rectum grew teeth" variety.
And one of the first lines in the Grey Knights codex describes them as "utterly incorruptible". I'd say that's pretty solid. The whole "nothing is impossible" crowd is grasping at straws.
Omegus wrote:There is debate whether that corruption would have been of a spiritual nature, or of the "holy crap my face is melting and my rectum grew teeth" variety.
This would be of interest for me as well, given that the very same piece of fluff also seems to invalidate the "only a single Sister ever fallen to Chaos" schpiel of the SoB.
Omegus wrote:And one of the first lines in the Grey Knights codex describes them as "utterly incorruptible". I'd say that's pretty solid. The whole "nothing is impossible" crowd is grasping at straws.
I think it is best to split up the discussion in two questions:
1. Can a GK turn to chaos?
Yes, because
- if not, they wouldn't have to slaughter SoB to annoint them with their virgin blood.
- if not, there would be no need to describe several levels of purity in the codex.
2. Can there be a chaos GK?
No, because the instant the GK would turn to chaos, the wards on his bones would reduce him to ashes.
So this is my explanation why there was no recorded GK ever to turn to chaos and why they are utterly incorruptible. Because they die the instant they go chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Omegus wrote:There was an entire Order of sisters that turned to Slaanesh. I think it was in the Daemonifuge graphic novels.
Their bodies were corrupted, but not their minds. They molded all their minds into one big mind that resisted chaos. When the Daemonifuge arrived, they gave her all the secrets they learned about Slaanesh before they were stopped by chaos.
Omegus wrote:He never fell to Chaos, his mind was completely gone for a time as he rampaged in the slave arenas.
In my opinion he was serving Khorne at least if not being fallen by committing a little mindless beserking in the arenas. That was the point of collaring him and lowering his defenses. Again this is in my opinion.
Omegus wrote:There was an entire Order of sisters that turned to Slaanesh. I think it was in the Daemonifuge graphic novels.
Aye, I know - an Order Pronatus on Parnis (though you could argue that Sisters Pronatus "don't count" because they're no SoB). But novels aren't hard canon and GW doesn't really care about what ideas they introduce, describing them as "interpretations" and only adopting stuff they like whilst disregarding the rest.
Grimmzahn wrote:No, because the instant the GK would turn to chaos, the wards on his bones would reduce him to ashes.
That actually sounds pretty cool.
Grimmzahn wrote:Their bodies were corrupted, but not their minds. They molded all their minds into one big mind that resisted chaos. When the Daemonifuge arrived, they gave her all the secrets they learned about Slaanesh before they were stopped by chaos.
There was also a small army of Chaos Sisters that came through a warp portal to attack Ephrael and her allies together with the Keeper of Secrets.
Though in a way, an explanation might be that these were just bodies serving as daemonhosts, with the souls still trapped in the Screaming Cage? Either way, the novel did tell of "Sister fighting Sister" etc, so I don't think this cop-out would work. I guess the Screaming Cage are just the ones who stayed pure but lost the battle to the ones who had fallen, meaning the Order was essentially split in half by the Greater Daemon they had unleashed. Or was it that the Screaming Cage was made up of the souls of the Sisters Militant sent to investigate Parnis (Ephrael's first visit), whereas all or most of the resident Sisters Pronatus had fallen to Chaos? The book was a little vague on who fought who.
I'm a bit on the fence. On one hand, the idea of Chaos Sisters is pretty cool, but on the other this kind of "inflation" just takes away from the unique awesomeness of Miriael Sabathiel. I wonder if the new Codex will retcon the 3E book or reinforce it. Given the GK 'dex, anything seems to be possible these days.
No, because the instant the GK would turn to chaos, the wards on his bones would reduce him to ashes. -Grimzah
Even though i am still completely and 100% in the NO CHAOS GK camp,but arent most of the thousand sons just their souls/ash trapped inside their armour with a few "human" sorcerers that lead them?
dajobe wrote:No, because the instant the GK would turn to chaos, the wards on his bones would reduce him to ashes. -Grimzah
Even though i am still completely and 100% in the NO CHAOS GK camp,but arent most of the thousand sons just their souls/ash trapped inside their armour with a few "human" sorcerers that lead them?
Lynata wrote:Or was it that the Screaming Cage was made up of the souls of the Sisters Militant sent to investigate Parnis (Ephrael's first visit), whereas all or most of the resident Sisters Pronatus had fallen to Chaos? The book was a little vague on who fought who.
Spoiler:
During her first visit with the other Sisters Militant, they discovered the Screaming Cage and were discovered by chaos forces. The minds in the Screaming Cage could only protect one sister from chaos detecting her and chose Ephrael. Additionally, they inserted their knowledge into her mind because they didn't want it to be lost. That was too much for her mind and she lost consciousness and her memory. When she awoke, she wandered aimlessly around until she was found by the Imperium. The other sisters lost their fight against the overwhelming chaos forces and were killed. The Inquisition wanted to know how she was the only one who survived. That lead to the second visit. After that she started to remember the things that happened before as well as the knowledge implanted into her by the Screaming Cage.
Omegus wrote:
And one of the first lines in the Grey Knights codex describes them as "utterly incorruptible". I'd say that's pretty solid. The whole "nothing is impossible" crowd is grasping at straws.
It also says they all fear being the first to do so. Not much reason to fear the impossible.
Ok, ive read over this thread, and my answer to the question is that 'No, grey knights cannot turn to chaos, because of two reasons: A. They are warded, indoctrined and otherwise made impervious to chaos's corrupting influence B. 'IF' it were made possible (by some feared beast of destruction whom we fear due to GW not firing him the moment SM 5Th edition was released, and now the dreadknight...) then as previously mentioned the wards tattoo'd on a grey knights skin and marked into his bones would burn him to ashes'
Also mentioned in this thread is about Hammer of Daemons novel where Alaric is collared, i just wanna clear up the idea of what it did. Primarily, it was placed on him so his psychic shield would be lowered and thus make him touchable by daemons who couldn't even stand next to him without recoiling, aswell as making him vulnerable to possession.
Secondly, it cut off his ability to use psychic powers in any offensive form making him easier to handle.
Also, Alaric never turned to chaos, he pulled the daemon into his mind further, using tzeentch's Pradaox against itself, confusing the daemon razezael (sp) long enough for him to use the collars effects against itself (With the collar on, alarics mind was totally vulnerable, even to himself) fragmenting his own mind. While this also meant he was possessed for a while, it also gave Alaric enough time to force the daemon out.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Hey, one of their grandmaster is trouncing round the warp falcon punching greater daemons and the like. I doubt they are capable of falling to chaos.
I go out of my way to avoid adopting the silly convention of spelling his name with just one 't'. I don't know if he's trying to be cool, or what, but I find it's a lot more amusing to simply call him Matthew. It's what you would call a child, which syncs perfectly with the level of his writing. "ZOMG my gray nite GM totally rox0rz demonz!"
dajobe wrote:No, because the instant the GK would turn to chaos, the wards on his bones would reduce him to ashes. -Grimzah
Even though i am still completely and 100% in the NO CHAOS GK camp,but arent most of the thousand sons just their souls/ash trapped inside their armour with a few "human" sorcerers that lead them?
Yeah but they are animated by sorcery.
Wait, isn't it MatT Ward? Always thought it WAS two Ts. Guess he is pretty cool guy then.
Nope just checked the almighty, infallible repository of knowledge: Wikipedia. It's Matt.
Apparently, he started writing it with a single "t" in some White Dwarf articles, so people picked it up. On the stuff he writes, he's credited as "Matthew".
How bout this fellas? Grey Knights are incorruptible, it cannot happen, and will not happen, as per the codex... when GW finally gets around to publishing a story where a Grey Knight clearly and undeniably does fall, then its possible.
My philosophy on 'fluff breaking,' is not to do it, until the people who originated the fluff take the lead in doing it themselves. Remember, its not your fluff, its GW's fluff, they are kind enough to allow us to play with it, but just because you can play with it doesn't mean you can/should break it. Honestly I don't understand what the attraction is for some people to do that kind of stuff. Its not just chaos grey knights, things like femmarines, chaos necrons, chaos nids, etc. First, does everything need to have a chaos version? Thats unoriginal, and kinda boring IMO. But more importantly, why do some people insist on fluffing up their forces in a way that defies conventional fluff? For the sake of being different? There are more interesting ways to make a different fluff that doesn't require you to do something that is in complete disagreement with what has already been established.
Imperial Demons, IMperial Chaos Space marines, Imperial Nids, Imperial Necrons, Imperial Eldar, Imperial Orks, HAHA, i have just won the galaxy over for the Imperium, your welcome GW...we can all stop playing 40k, we now know the ending, lol
dajobe wrote:Imperial Demons, IMperial Chaos Space marines, Imperial Nids, Imperial Necrons, Imperial Eldar, Imperial Orks, HAHA, i have just won the galaxy over for the Imperium, your welcome GW...we can all stop playing 40k, we now know the ending, lol
iproxtaco wrote:If they can't be corrupted, then a certain heretical moron has made it extremely hard to discern an answer. They can't be corrupted, and then then Crowe comes along, the least corruptible of them all. Wait, if they can't be corrupted at all, why is he at a different level of incorruptibility?
This is entirely correct and yet noone has attempted to discuss this. Could it be that the Grey Knight fluff has inconsistencies that allow the corruption of Grey Knights?
dajobe wrote:
i want kharne, and abaddon in my SM army, they are SM technically right? whats to keep them from going back to the imperium, theres nothing thats guarenteed they wont!
Kharn is a mindless animal at this point in time. Bringing him back into the Imperium would be next to if not down right impossible. Abaddon has had ten thousand years of hating the Imperium and trying to ruin it to persuade him not to follow the Emperor's banner. That said, I could maybe see Abaddon working with the Imperium if a great enough threat surfaced. Note that these are two characters with their own established fluff. I don't think anyone is saying that Crowe could be corrupted.
Omegus wrote:And one of the first lines in the Grey Knights codex describes them as "utterly incorruptible". I'd say that's pretty solid. The whole "nothing is impossible" crowd is grasping at straws.
How about refuting arguments other than "nothing is impossible"?
DarknessEternal wrote:It also says they all fear being the first to do so. Not much reason to fear the impossible.
Good point. Too bad noone will reply to it.
dakkawolf wrote:Ok, ive read over this thread, and my answer to the question is that 'No, grey knights cannot turn to chaos, because of two reasons: A. They are warded, indoctrined and otherwise made impervious to chaos's corrupting influence B. 'IF' it were made possible (by some feared beast of destruction whom we fear due to GW not firing him the moment SM 5Th edition was released, and now the dreadknight...) then as previously mentioned the wards tattoo'd on a grey knights skin and marked into his bones would burn him to ashes'
A) They can't have varying levels of imperviousness.
B) Remove the tattoo'd skin and grind off the engraved markings.
chaos0xomega wrote:How bout this fellas? Grey Knights are incorruptible, it cannot happen, and will not happen, as per the codex... when GW finally gets around to publishing a story where a Grey Knight clearly and undeniably does fall, then its possible.
My philosophy on 'fluff breaking,' is not to do it, until the people who originated the fluff take the lead in doing it themselves. Remember, its not your fluff, its GW's fluff, they are kind enough to allow us to play with it, but just because you can play with it doesn't mean you can/should break it. Honestly I don't understand what the attraction is for some people to do that kind of stuff. Its not just chaos grey knights, things like femmarines, chaos necrons, chaos nids, etc. First, does everything need to have a chaos version? Thats unoriginal, and kinda boring IMO. But more importantly, why do some people insist on fluffing up their forces in a way that defies conventional fluff? For the sake of being different? There are more interesting ways to make a different fluff that doesn't require you to do something that is in complete disagreement with what has already been established.
Per the codex, some space marines are more incorruptable than others. That means that some are less incorruptable, meaning that they are not totally incorruptable.
Why do it? Chaos Grey Knights could look sick. Chaos Grey Knights are the ultimate expression of the power of chaos. Chaos Grey Knights, in the fluff, would be the ultimate terror weapon. Chaos Grey Knights would be relatively unique. I doubt many people would buy, convert, and paint an army just to break the fluff.
dajobe wrote:Imperial Demons, IMperial Chaos Space marines, Imperial Nids, Imperial Necrons, Imperial Eldar, Imperial Orks, HAHA, i have just won the galaxy over for the Imperium, your welcome GW...we can all stop playing 40k, we now know the ending, lol
Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.
Imperial Chaos Space Marines is an oxymoron, seeing as Chaos Space Marines reject the Imperium by definition. You could mean loyalists that use daemonic artifacts (like the Reflictors) or traitors turning back to the worship of the Emperor. Neither of those two scenarios are impossible and both could make for engaging armies.
Imperial Nids? Since the larger 'nids are linked to the hive mind, such a concept would be limited to individual swarms of gaunts and other smaller creatures. It would be interesting to see an army of the Ordo Xenos with swarms of Gaunts being corralled by adepts in power armour (Warriors), adepts in sentinels (Zoanthropes/Lictors/Venomthropes), Deathwatch in Dreadknight-like machines (Trygons/Carnifex), and inquisitors in Throne of Judgement-esque contraptions (Hive Tyrants). Doesn't someone have a Tyranid Mechanicus army?
Imperial Necrons are rather easy. Just have a Lord decide to change sides. Maybe have him join the Blood Angels; those two seem to get along already.
Imperial Eldar are the same. They will already aid the Imperium to aid themselves. You would only need to think of a long term reason for the two to work together.
Imperial Orks? Why not? Isn't one of the Ork klans made of mercenaries anyways? Just have a heretical governor hire them. Alternatively, have a warboss begin to worship a primarch/chapter master/the Emperor as an avatar of Gork... I really like that last idea. You could write stories with seemingly doomed planets rescued at the last minute by waves of heroic green defenders. All of the Imperials would be shocked to find that they had been saved by orks in the name of the Empruh, avatah of Mork (or Gork).
Of course, none of the unconventional allies would be accepted by the Imperium at large, but that's analogous to the fact that noone wants the entire Grey Knights chapter to fall.
RustyKnight wrote:Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.
There are explicitly warp entities that are not associated with the Ruinous Powers. Although the closest they get to being Imperial would be the Watchers in the Dark with the Dark Angels.
There are cases of people being possessed by pro-Imperial powers though: living saints.
RustyKnight wrote:B) Remove the tattoo'd skin and grind off the engraved markings.
That's just silly. "Let's skin them and grind down their bones." There wouldn't be anything left to turn at that point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote:
There are explicitly warp entities that are not associated with the Ruinous Powers. Although the closest they get to being Imperial would be the Watchers in the Dark with the Dark Angels..
My understanding was that the Watchers were part of the Cabal and simply choose to take the form of Jawas so as to not freak people out and to better mesh with existing myths/legends of Caliban.
RustyKnight wrote:Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.
There are explicitly warp entities that are not associated with the Ruinous Powers. Although the closest they get to being Imperial would be the Watchers in the Dark with the Dark Angels.
There are cases of people being possessed by pro-Imperial powers though: living saints.
I assumed daemons meant daemons of the Ruinous Powers. I know there exist non-chaos warp entities, but I didn't think they were germane.
Since furies aren't actually bound to a god, could they choose to help humanity?
Omegus wrote:
RustyKnight wrote:B) Remove the tattoo'd skin and grind off the engraved markings.
That's just silly. "Let's skin them and grind down their bones." There wouldn't be anything left to turn at that point.
I'm assuming that the tattoo'd skin doesn't cover the entire body (if it does, either remove the tattoos with lasers or remove in patchs and replace with synthskin or skin from a donor) and that you could grind off the surface layer of the bones . Destroying the entire bone would be unnecessary; if any bones were compromised either replace them or reinforce them.
Are you going to reply to any of the other points, or should I assume you accept them as truth?
My humble point of view is that is is entirely possible that a Grey Knight can fall from his glorious perch.
1. The most hated piece of fluff by Matt Ward describes a group of Grey Knights performing a ritual from the blood of Sisters of Battle to create a talisman to protect against the Bloodtide. This means that the Grey Knights do possess limitations but it seems they are quite aware of the limitations from their training, prayers, abilities, and their possession of various wards and protections. This little piece of writing directly contradicts that Grey Knights are completely uncorrectable.
2. Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't. Considering the length of the existence of the Grey Knights and their constant need to combat the forces of chaos then even if the chances of a brother falling to Chaos was .000-(insert maybe a million more zeroes here)-01% chance during any encounter with the forces of chaos then the odds would slowly stack to the point that a Brother will fall to Chaos. Now even though the odds during any one encounter are basically incorruptible the thousands of years of thousands of battles and thousands of battle brothers that probability would slowly rise to where a battle brother, somewhere at sometime, flipped a and went insane and turned to Chaos.
3. Being "incorruptible" does not necessarily mean that they are incorruptible. The Titanic was seen as practically unsinkable at the time before her maiden voyage from England so the thought of someone wanting to take out insurance on her would almost be seen as laughably absurd. The Grey Knights may have not have had a brother fallen to the ruinous powers yet but they may not have found their own iceberg just yet.
4. The tendency of the Grey Knights to perform mind wipes and kill even loyal members of the Imperium who have witnessed their presence may lead to the possibility that there may have been battle brothers who fell to the powers of chaos but their comrades who may have survived the encounter were mind wiped or cleansed. This idea is supported that the Purifiers are the sole members of the Grey Knights who know the true nature of their captive within Titan. The Supreme Grand Masters have access to information that is kept from their fellow brothers. If all Grey Knights were beyond corruption than such measures of secrecy would be unnecessary.
While the idea of a band of Chaos Grey Knights is somewhat far fetched as it would be effectively impossible for a group of Grey Knights to turn to Chaos except the worst imaginable events(possibly Terminus Decree worthy...). Though I have a firm belief that a Grey Knight could possibly turn to chaos, escape the immediate wrath of his battle brothers, escape off world from the inevitable Exterminatus degree that would follow such an act, and then manage to escape into the Eye of Terror, Maelstrom, or some other forsaken place to escape from the Grey Knights who would seek to slay him to redeem the name of the Grey Knights.
I can certainly see why people think of the Grey Knights as incorruptible and that is a perfect valid interpretation of the fluff. Though I feel from what I have read that they are the best defenders of mankind against Chaos but they are not perfect and can possibly fall like the Emperor's own sons. Though I would probably have a hard time swallowing a Chaos Grey Knight army though I would not turn down a chance to play against someone and enjoy (read eye roll) their own little piece of fluff that they created.
@Rusty: So your argument is that it's possible to corrupt a Grey Knight as long as you remove absolutely everything about him that makes him a Grey Knight? Rip off his skin, grind down the surface layer of his bones, hell go ahead and mind-scrub him as well to get rid of all that indoctrination. What you have left at the end of the day is no longer a Grey Knight, just a shell.
As far Grey Knights willingly turning to Chaos? "A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemon's dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption." In other words, so extremely unlikely that it's practically impossible. They don't have varying degrees of vulnerability, since a novice has to undergo trials where they are tempted by Chaos and must prove themselves immune to their lure. Purifiers are just a tiny sub-faction (a few score in total) of dour-faced fanatics, whose focus/faith/fervor/f-word of choice is so extreme that it manifests as psychic fire that cleanses the tainted. Belief is a very powerful thing in the 40k universe. There are faithful of the Imperial Cult that would gladly die in the Emperor's name, and then there are those who are so faithful that they become warp conduits/living saints. Or as a different example, take the World Eaters... they are all a bunch of loons, but Kharn is super-duper loony... but him being extra flying rodent gak crazy doesn't suddenly make other World Eaters sane. Just because Fulrgim would feth you six ways to Sunday, doesn't make other Emperor's Children Mormons.
So we are told these guys are incorruptible over and over again, none of them have ever been corrupted, one Grey Knight willingly turning to Chaos is about the most unlikely thing in the entire 40K setting (much less enough of them turning to field an army), while the process of corrupting them against their will is so convoluted and far-fetched that it crosses well into ludicrous territory.
RustyKnight wrote:Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.
There are explicitly warp entities that are not associated with the Ruinous Powers. Although the closest they get to being Imperial would be the Watchers in the Dark with the Dark Angels.
There are cases of people being possessed by pro-Imperial powers though: living saints.
I assumed daemons meant daemons of the Ruinous Powers. I know there exist non-chaos warp entities, but I didn't think they were germane.
Since furies aren't actually bound to a god, could they choose to help humanity?
There was a list in an old White Dwarf back oh so long ago (can't remember which) of a 'good' daemon army. The fluff for it basically stated that since the Chaos powers are a reflection of emotion you have those that reflect negative emotion and those that reflect positive. Only, currently the negative images in the warp seem to be the more powerful. So 'good' chaos gods and daemons do exist, they just aren't as common or as powerful as their evil counterparts.
Has anyone given thought to the idea that maybe the wards and runes don't work? It wouldn't be the first time the IoM put faith in something that didn't actually exist. Crazy I know.
Omegus wrote: So your argument is that it's possible to corrupt a Grey Knight as long as you remove absolutely everything about him that makes him a Grey Knight? Rip off his skin, grind down the surface layer of his bones, hell go ahead and mind-scrub him as well to get rid of all that indoctrination. What you have left at the end of the day is no longer a Grey Knight, just a shell.
My argument is that the Grey Knight fluff is contradictory, so the player can decide. On the skin comment, you just ignored my explanation. I never wanted to mindscrub him; I'll ignore that comment. How are the surface of his bones and his skin the two most important parts of being a Grey Knight? They aren't; they're base physical properties that utterly have no impact on whether he is or isn't a Grey Knight.
Removing parts of the skin and the surface layer of the bones leaves a lot more than a shell. Leaves muscle, most of the skin, most of the bones, the brain, the soul, all the delightful space marine glands, the geneseed, etc.
Omegus wrote: As far Grey Knights willingly turning to Chaos? "A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemon's dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption." In other words, so extremely unlikely that it's practically impossible.
And yet other fluff supports them falling to Chaos.
Omegus wrote:They don't have varying degrees of vulnerability, since a novice has to undergo trials where they are tempted by Chaos and must prove themselves immune to their lure.
The fact that some Grey Knights (the Purifiers) are less vulnerable to corruption means that other Grey Knights must be more vulnerable, otherwise the Purifiers can't be less vulnerable.
If the Purifiers aren't less vulnerable, why give the Blade of Antwyr to them? Couldn't any of the Grey Knights wield it with just as little of a chance to fall? Why not use it's powers? If they're uncorruptable, nothing bad will happen. If they cannot fall, then why do they all fear being the first? As someone else said, no point in fearing the impossible.
Omegus wrote:Purifiers are just a tiny sub-faction (a few score in total) of dour-faced fanatics, whose focus/faith/fervor/f-word of choice is so extreme that it manifests as psychic fire that cleanses the tainted.
Only partially correct. The Purifiers are also described as being more incorruptable than their brothers, meaning that their brothers are more corrupable meaning that they can be corrupted. You can't get more incorruptable than entirely incorruptable.
Omegus wrote:Or as a different example, take the World Eaters... they are all a bunch of loons, but Kharn is super-duper loony... but him being extra flying rodent gak crazy doesn't suddenly make other World Eaters sane.
Kharn being as crazy as he is does show us that Khorne Berzerkers are not as crazy as possible. Purifiers show us that regular Grey Knights are not as incorruptable as possible. If regular Grey Knights are not as incorruptable as possible, than they are not entirely incorruptable. If they are not entirely incorruptable, they can be corrupted.
Omegus wrote: So we are told these guys are incorruptible over and over again,
As I've stated before, the fluff also tells us that they can be corrupted.
Omegus wrote:none of them have ever been corrupted,
First time for everything!
Omegus, why do you refuse to respond to my posts?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nomotog wrote:Has anyone given thought to the idea that maybe the wards and runes don't work? It wouldn't be the first time the IoM put faith in something that didn't actually exist. Crazy I know.
Since the hexagrammatic wards are given in-game effects, I think we can safely assume they do work. Of course, maybe a strong enough chaos entity over a long enough period of time could break them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guaiwu wrote:There was a list in an old White Dwarf back oh so long ago (can't remember which) of a 'good' daemon army. The fluff for it basically stated that since the Chaos powers are a reflection of emotion you have those that reflect negative emotion and those that reflect positive. Only, currently the negative images in the warp seem to be the more powerful. So 'good' chaos gods and daemons do exist, they just aren't as common or as powerful as their evil counterparts.
Guaiwu wrote:Is this argument based purely on the fact that GW's fluff has inconsistencies?
The argument is that since Grey Knight fluff tell us that Grey Knights are corruptable, so you can have Chaos Grey Knights.
Is this inconsistent with some parts of the fluff? Sure, but the opposite position is also inconsistent. The inconsistency of GW fluff is a sad but inescapable facet of their games.
Except the fluff doesn't say that, you are stretching ambiguous, poorly written fluff to the extreme. 5% of GK being exceptionally pure does not mean the other 95% are impure. Those 95% of Grey Knights are painful to be around to daemons, while the other 5% are downright lethal. Blam, the supposed inconsistency of Purifiers is gone. The goofy Bloodtide story could be interpreted as additional protection against physical effects of the Warp (even a Grey Knight could succumb to a bolt of change, for example). Presto, the need for additional protection is justified. As for the opposite position, it's hard to argue with phrases such as "utterly incorruptible". In fact, I bet if you were to scan the whole document, "incorruptible" would easily be among the top three adjectives used.
The fluff blurb about them "fearing to be the first to fall" I have been unable to find after scouring the book. A reference would be appreciated.
Then, if we ignore Ward's garbage (because it really is garbage) and look to other sources for GK background, the one point it is extremely consistent on is that they are incorruptible. Even a Grey Knight who had his psychic wards nullified and a daemon of Tzeench take residence in his head, still was able to not only not turn to Chaos, but destroy the daemon and bring down the entire society of a planet dedicated to Khorne. The book further states that daemons have nothing with which to tempt GK... their only desire is to see Chaos annihilated. In order to successfully court a Grey Knight, Chaos would have to unmake itself.
In the end, I have to agree with Reemus. Possibly, in some extremely unlikely and incredibly far-fetched ridiculous situation a single Grey Knight could perhaps maybe possibly turn to Chaos (and even then in some kind of zealous renegade joining forces with Malal to destroy Chaos much more bettah scenario). And perhaps he would even survive longer than 30 seconds after the fact. Maybe. But a bunch of them? Much less enough to field an army's worth? Nonsense.
Guaiwu wrote:Is this argument based purely on the fact that GW's fluff has inconsistencies?
The argument is that since Grey Knight fluff tell us that Grey Knights are corruptable, so you can have Chaos Grey Knights.
Is this inconsistent with some parts of the fluff? Sure, but the opposite position is also inconsistent. The inconsistency of GW fluff is a sad but inescapable facet of their games.
The problem is those 'proofs' of corruptibility are ridiculous in themselves, as no record of corruption exists, saying one is less corruptible than another is like saying you haven't been taken by aliens due to your tin-foil hat. True the hat might be protecting you but since no one else has been taken there is no reason to assume it does anything, just as there is no reason to assume more incorruptible is any better than incorruptible as neither has ever fallen.
I'm not going to argue that it is impossible for Grey Knights to fall, because lets face it, its a story, and really I couldn't care less. But to base arguments on slight word nuances is to go down the tin-foil hat, and, dare I say it, religious interpretation path.
It's not just slight word nuances, it's entire sections. I'm not going to argue whether they can or can't, but no-one can argue that He Who Must Not Be Named has written a book which contradicts itself in several places, or puts what should be a clear-cut concept into ambiguity.
Personally, I prefer that they can fall to Chaos, but that they are steeled against it. On the flip side to their strength, they all fear being the first to fall, that the eternally battle against the corruption they have to fight their entire lives. It adds a human, fallible side to what are perceived as the pinnacle of mankind's protectors.
Guys, we've sat here and debated the GK's rules til we were blue in the face, then the FAQ came out.
Well, the fluff is equally confusing. But there will be clarification soon. I recently spoke to Aaron Dembski-Boden, who's next project, after the Heresy book he's writing, is a reboot of the Grey Knights books, taking over from Ben Counter.
I expect great things - and for issues like this to be settled.
dajobe wrote:Surely Chaos demons cant be persuaded to join the imperium, right? they are just demons to the bone, and are completely made of demon stuff, doesnt mean they cant go to the imperium, right?
/sarcasm
Automatically Appended Next Post: i want kharne, and abaddon in my SM army, they are SM technically right? whats to keep them from going back to the imperium, theres nothing thats guarenteed they wont!
Weeeell... I'm pretty sure that Inquisitors have a tendency to use daemons. And comparing two of Chaos' chosen returning to the Imperium isn't at all like one or two Grey Knights over the course of ten thousand years turning to Chaos.
dajobe wrote:Imperial Demons, IMperial Chaos Space marines, Imperial Nids, Imperial Necrons, Imperial Eldar, Imperial Orks, HAHA, i have just won the galaxy over for the Imperium, your welcome GW...we can all stop playing 40k, we now know the ending, lol
Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.
Imperial Chaos Space Marines is an oxymoron, seeing as Chaos Space Marines reject the Imperium by definition. You could mean loyalists that use daemonic artifacts (like the Reflictors) or traitors turning back to the worship of the Emperor. Neither of those two scenarios are impossible and both could make for engaging armies.
Imperial Nids? Since the larger 'nids are linked to the hive mind, such a concept would be limited to individual swarms of gaunts and other smaller creatures. It would be interesting to see an army of the Ordo Xenos with swarms of Gaunts being corralled by adepts in power armour (Warriors), adepts in sentinels (Zoanthropes/Lictors/Venomthropes), Deathwatch in Dreadknight-like machines (Trygons/Carnifex), and inquisitors in Throne of Judgement-esque contraptions (Hive Tyrants). Doesn't someone have a Tyranid Mechanicus army?
Imperial Necrons are rather easy. Just have a Lord decide to change sides. Maybe have him join the Blood Angels; those two seem to get along already.
Imperial Eldar are the same. They will already aid the Imperium to aid themselves. You would only need to think of a long term reason for the two to work together.
Imperial Orks? Why not? Isn't one of the Ork klans made of mercenaries anyways? Just have a heretical governor hire them. Alternatively, have a warboss begin to worship a primarch/chapter master/the Emperor as an avatar of Gork... I really like that last idea. You could write stories with seemingly doomed planets rescued at the last minute by waves of heroic green defenders. All of the Imperials would be shocked to find that they had been saved by orks in the name of the Empruh, avatah of Mork (or Gork).
Of course, none of the unconventional allies would be accepted by the Imperium at large, but that's analogous to the fact that noone wants the entire Grey Knights chapter to fall.
lol, i was trying to be a punk, i would never do any of these things because I try to stick to the fluff, to me, chaos GK is as ridiculous as something like imperial chaos space marines, or demons or nids.
Durza wrote:Weeeell... I'm pretty sure that Inquisitors have a tendency to use daemons. And comparing two of Chaos' chosen returning to the Imperium isn't at all like one or two Grey Knights over the course of ten thousand years turning to Chaos.
Despite the fact that every other Inquisitor we meet in fluff is a radical or full-on Chaos-corrupted, the actual percentage of radical inquisitors is relatively small. The orthodox sects have a significant majority.
And the comparison is actually quite apt, because neither of those things have ever happened.
I'm pretty sure there are Imperial Daemons. Really based on her description, I think St. Celestine is a daemon as is the Sanguinor from the Blood Angels. That said they don't have the Daemon rule but they show up where needed. From books it seems that St Sabbat is a daemon. They are all Daemons of the Emperor in my opinion who after 10000 years of abject worship has become a Warp God.
thats an interesting take, but what i meant was painting bloodletters and nurglings gold and and putting imperial logos on them, because IMO, that would be as ridiculous as Chaos GK
andrewm9 wrote:I'm pretty sure there are Imperial Daemons. Really based on her description, I think St. Celestine is a daemon as is the Sanguinor from the Blood Angels. That said they don't have the Daemon rule but they show up where needed. From books it seems that St Sabbat is a daemon. They are all Daemons of the Emperor in my opinion who after 10000 years of abject worship has become a Warp God.
Yes, but they're called Saints and Angels by Imperials.
It's like a reversal on the whole "Demons are actually Angels" thing in Christianity.
This reminds me of a discussion I had elsewhere concerning the power of faith and its source as well as the relationship between emotions and the warp:
The emphasis on the psycic energy of the warp is a very good point. Perhaps faith works as a catalyst? Where psykers are able to connect directly to the warp, thus having much more influence and power (but simultaneously also being subject to corruption as some sort of "feedback" from the warp as well as potentially growing more arrogant with the might they could wield), faith might allow people with extremely strong convictions to indirectly manifest their burning emotions - be them hope, mercy or hate - as focal points around which the reality will be altered, without any kind of "hands on" manipulation like the psyker would do. This makes Acts of Faith much less controllable and more a matter of subconsciousness or instinct, but also foregoes the threat of a warp incursion or similar effects.
After all, was it not the emotions of the Eldar that resulted in the birth of Slaanesh?
And here's an almost heretical thought: What if all those Living Saints are born out of nigh-similar events, just on a smaller scale? At times of great need, and out of the collective emotions of the faithful? An embodiment of all the holy zeal and focused aggression, "possessing" one of the faithful and ascending her to temporary demi-godhood - until her body finally breaks from the immense stresses of being interspersed with this kind of raw power.
andrewm9 wrote:I think St. Celestine is a daemon as is the Sanguinor from the Blood Angels.
Celestine is possessed. Sanquinor is a straight up daemon though.
Don't confuse Celestine with Sabbat who would who really is some sort of possessing entity. Celestine animated her own body (assuming she really died) and doesn't seem to have possessed anyone after that. There is no evidence to suggest that she has come back again according to the existing fluff unlike St Sabbat.
Omegus wrote:Except the fluff doesn't say that, you are stretching ambiguous, poorly written fluff to the extreme. 5% of GK being exceptionally pure does not mean the other 95% are impure. Those 95% of Grey Knights are painful to be around to daemons, while the other 5% are downright lethal. Blam, the supposed inconsistency of Purifiers is gone. The goofy Bloodtide story could be interpreted as additional protection against physical effects of the Warp (even a Grey Knight could succumb to a bolt of change, for example). Presto, the need for additional protection is justified. As for the opposite position, it's hard to argue with phrases such as "utterly incorruptible". In fact, I bet if you were to scan the whole document, "incorruptible" would easily be among the top three adjectives used.
The fluff blurb about them "fearing to be the first to fall" I have been unable to find after scouring the book. A reference would be appreciated.
Then, if we ignore Ward's garbage (because it really is garbage) and look to other sources for GK background, the one point it is extremely consistent on is that they are incorruptible. Even a Grey Knight who had his psychic wards nullified and a daemon of Tzeench take residence in his head, still was able to not only not turn to Chaos, but destroy the daemon and bring down the entire society of a planet dedicated to Khorne. The book further states that daemons have nothing with which to tempt GK... their only desire is to see Chaos annihilated. In order to successfully court a Grey Knight, Chaos would have to unmake itself.
In the end, I have to agree with Reemus. Possibly, in some extremely unlikely and incredibly far-fetched ridiculous situation a single Grey Knight could perhaps maybe possibly turn to Chaos (and even then in some kind of zealous renegade joining forces with Malal to destroy Chaos much more bettah scenario). And perhaps he would even survive longer than 30 seconds after the fact. Maybe. But a bunch of them? Much less enough to field an army's worth? Nonsense.
This is the singularly most intelligent point raised in the entire thread. I feel it needs repeated.
Everyone touched by the Bloodtide is "instantly corrupted", going completely ape, slaughtering and sacrificing everyone in sight. Some Sisters resist the effects of the Bloodtide and continue on their fighting. Grey Knights show up, and "needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint" they kill the sisters, mix their blood with oil, and anoint all of their gear. Then they effortlessly stride through the Bloodtide "without risk of corruption" and wtfpwn the Khorne daemon.
As pointed out earlier, you could say that this has always been the case, but we were just told they were incorruptible because they've known of such rituals to prevent falling to Chaos all along.
If Sisters could resist the taint, I'm sure even the most newb Grey Knight could as well. Nothing imples, however, that resisting it would be easy. I'm sure corruption of that nature is far more insidious than just making a pass/fail saving throw. Looking again to the GK Omnibus (or even Fulgrim or any other story of possession) for inspiration, such corruption would take a constant effort of will to suppress/resist. I'm sure slaughtering demons and chaos cultists, while "enunciating the cants of cleansing", is a lot easier when you don't have to squelch the voices in your head.
I mean, I personally don't murder people because three of the four voices in my head insist I don't, but it doesn't make that last one any less convincing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noisy_Marine wrote:The Grey Knight in Hammer of Daemons was corrupted by the end.
You're wrong, as has been covered multiple times in this thread, but thanks for playing.
Lynata wrote:Ah, then I guess Grey Knights can be corrupted.
As pointed out earlier, you could say that this has always been the case, but we were just told they were incorruptible because they've known of such rituals to prevent falling to Chaos all along.
As has been covered time and time and time and time again.
We don't know what the Bloodtide does 100%. Most Daemonic plagues/side effects, however (which the Bloodtide likely is), have both a physical and spiritual component. The Grey Knights wouldn't be daubing sigils and wards on their wargear to protect their flesh from a spiritual corruption. That leads us to a very reasonable conclusion that is completely 100% within the Grey Knight motif of "the body will fail before the spirit falters", where if the Bloodtide and Goreflood can't grab anchor within a soul resisting it that it renders the flesh weak and unable to prevent the Daemonic infestation.
Omegus wrote:In order to successfully court a Grey Knight, Chaos would have to unmake itself.
Then surely a daemon of Malal can posses and sway a GK? What with them representing Chaos turning upon itself.... That being said, surely the GK would WANT to use Malal to fight chaos...
Ahh so many posts and so many of them repeating themselves. The running arguement is that GK cannot mentally/spiritually be corrupted ever, do to the conditioning, rituals and ceremonies they have learned and developed over the centuries.
How many of these same ceremonies are heretical to begin with? Granted we don't know most of them but, if the Bloodtdie is an example last I checked sacrificing virgin blood to gain a benefit of any sort is evil.
Also chaos doesn't need to unmake itself to court a GK, they fight each other all the time. If they can promise, in the right way, the power to destroy "chaos" could they not eventually win out.
I say as others have that one or two might fall, would they live very long, unlikely. As to removing skin and bone it's not necessary, as I recall any ward or sigil can lose its power by simply making one alteration to it. By either erasing a portion of it so that it no longer connects or by adding to it to make it do something else.
The human mind no matter how rigorously trained and protected can still fail. The only true question is how long it will take.
hey801 wrote:Why is every body answering the same thing!
If you want to you can say that GK cannot be corrupt, but if you want to they can be corrupt, either way it does not matter!
If you want an army with a background that fits the established background then you can't say they are corrupted.
If you don't want an army that fits with established background why the hell are you asking us about it?
It's that simple.
hey801 wrote:Why is every body answering the same thing!
If you want to you can say that GK cannot be corrupt, but if you want to they can be corrupt, either way it does not matter!
If you're unwilling to accept what people on the Internet are saying, why post here? You can't engage a group of people, hear their well thought out and cited arguments to the otherwise, then blatantly disregard it by saying "it's cool cuz I say Chaos is the bestist!!one".
40k Background is for actual established background, it's not the place where you should expect the "Gold star for effort on fan-fiction". It is fictional, but it is fiction that exists in reality. 40k Background is not arguing whether "GK can be corrupt". That's fiction and the answer could be anything. What it's arguing is implicitly whether "GW says GK can be corrupt". There's a right and a wrong.
hey801 wrote:This is fictional, if you want to convert a grey night into chaos then nothing can stop you!!!!
And then there's no reason, at all, for this thread to be in 40k Background. It should be Dakka Fiction or 40k General, because 40k Background is for established, canonical discussions.
"I want to do Chaos Gray Knights, so I'm doing X/Y/Z" doesn't belong in those.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:
Then surely a daemon of Malal can posses and sway a GK? What with them representing Chaos turning upon itself.... That being said, surely the GK would WANT to use Malal to fight chaos...
Incorrect. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.
How many of these same ceremonies are heretical to begin with? Granted we don't know most of them but, if the Bloodtdie is an example last I checked sacrificing virgin blood to gain a benefit of any sort is evil.
Only the pure may judge what is evil and corrupt, and there are none more pure than the Grey Knights.
My ex girlfriend turned a Grey Knight to Chaos once. So I guess your're all wrong. 
book/story)
