So ya. Another thread is getting derailed by talk of how fast the tau advance their tech and I have actually been wanting to do a thread like this for awhile now, so lets do this. The different tech levels in the world of 40k. Who is most advanced? Who is least advanced? Can the IoM ever make anything new? Do the tau ever make anything old? Basically anything to do with tech levels.

I'll start off with the IoM. How much control do they have over their tech? Most knowledge is lost, but they must know something. How much? Do they at least have the users manual for their stuff, or was that lost too? (Hope I explained that right.)

The AdMech control all the knowledge of the construction and production of technology. Sometimes, as in the case of the various Fanes of the hive-complex of Gunmetal City, the Mechanicus sell these secrets to the highest bidders, who then produce and sell whatever item they bought from the Mechanicus, for profit, and turn a portion of the proceeds over to the Mechanicus... think of it as "rent-a-blueprint".

Sometimes, fragments of ancient STC constructs are found and, once their secrets are divined, the Imperium and the Mechanicus experience a great leap forward in their technology, as they have recovered some secret lost since the Dark Age of Technology. This, though, is very, very rare. Explorator Fleets are tasked with recovering these things from lost worlds and archaeo-tech ruins, though these fleets are often lost, or simply do not find anything of value. An archaeo-ruin might contain great troves of STC lore... which the Imperium already has. They don't need more STC instructions on "how to build a Rhino".

Other times, less-exciting things happen as a new variant weapon or vehicle or system is finally out of the testing stage and is produced and deployed in the theater it serves the best purpose.

User manuals and such things exist, though generally not in the way we would think of them. Our RL devices don't contain semi-sentient spirits that require certain rituals and practices to maintain their cooperation.

Psienesis wrote:
User manuals and such things exist, though generally not in the way we would think of them. Our RL devices don't contain semi-sentient spirits that require certain rituals and practices to maintain their cooperation.

Nor does most Imperial tech, simple maintenance work merely got magical attributes and attached and became ritual, because very few actually understand how their technology works.

By "manuals" I must assume you mean STCs, basically the blueprints sent out with human colonies to build anything they would possibly need. They are very rare and the discovery and retrieval of them are very high priority for the AdMech. The only ones who really know how anything truly works is the AdMech as well. Even things like plasma guns are relics of an ancient time and the technology to create them is almost completely gone and their workings are a mystery to any outside the AdMech. The IoM's tech is stagnating and very little is produced. Occasionally land raider variants are produced. Power armor is apparently updated, as are weapons. To summarize, the AdMech knows how some things work, but much has been lost to time. I forget where I read this, but the AdMech occasionally has to reverse engineer things, because they can't figure out how it works on its own.

The traitor legions are using any tech they have left over from the Horus Heresy, along with whatever they can steal, scavenge, or repair.

Eldar technology has been fairly stable for many millenia, reaching the "peak" of what they can accomplish. Their technology is grown from a psycho-reactive plastic called "wraithbone" by Eldar known as "Bonesingers".

I know very little of the Tau.

In theory, the Eldar are "most advanced" imo. They have technology that can rip entire holes in realspace and mess with the fabric of reality. They used to be able to harness the power of stars and MOVE them. They too have suffered a loss of technology since the Fall though.

All this stagnation... so grimdark ;D




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KingDeath wrote:

Psienesis wrote:
User manuals and such things exist, though generally not in the way we would think of them. Our RL devices don't contain semi-sentient spirits that require certain rituals and practices to maintain their cooperation.

Nor does most Imperial tech, simple maintenance work merely got magical attributes and attached and became ritual, because very few actually understand how their technology works.

Except the very existence of the Void Dragon and evidence such as Land Raiders driving with no crew points out the fallacy in that claim. Things can just have varying levels of machine-spirit. Do you really need to pray to your lasgun every time you fire it? No, it isn't really in that much control nor does it have that much "sentience". Do you need to make damn sure your Land Raider is happy? Hell yeah.

Oh that brings up another question about imperial tech. How much of the praying and charting is actually helpful and how much is just mambo jumbo. Dose a tech priest have to use the sacred oils (because they are a needed lubricant) or do they use them because they don't know any better.

It also feels like the IoM has a lot of "The pan was too small" tech. Is that really the case?

nomotog wrote:Oh that brings up another question about imperial tech. How much of the praying and charting is actually helpful and how much is just mambo jumbo. Dose a tech priest have to use the sacred oils (because they are a needed lubricant) or do they use them because they don't know any better.

It also feels like the IoM has a lot of "The pan was too small" tech. Is that really the case?

Well, all machines have "Machine Spirit", a sort of sentience/awareness. They use the sacred oils and chant because it appeases the machine spirit. This gives the machine a greater likelihood to actually do what you want (such as a bolter firing without jamming). Things like lasguns may have a very weak machine spirit and may not really need to be handled so carefully, but it is tradition. Things like Land Raiders can have such strong machine spirits that they can pilot themselves or even fire their own weapons, obviously meaning you should take care of it so it takes care of you.

I am actually not familiar with "The pan was too small" would you mind explaining it to me

KingDeath wrote:

Psienesis wrote:
User manuals and such things exist, though generally not in the way we would think of them. Our RL devices don't contain semi-sentient spirits that require certain rituals and practices to maintain their cooperation.

Nor does most Imperial tech, simple maintenance work merely got magical attributes and attached and became ritual, because very few actually understand how their technology works.

Actually, I used to think that way myself, that the "machine spirit" was just some gobbeldy-[see forum posting rules] that the Mechanicus "made up" because they didn't really understand how the tech worked.

... and then I read a few more books and got into Dark Heresy and, no, it really *is* "ghosts in the machine" that prevent something from working because you haven't burned its sacred incense this week or given it a proper rub-down with sacred oil or whatever. This, though, only applicable to more advanced tech, one's pocket-watch or comm-bead doesn't have such spirits, but the pump for a public water well and the engine of a vehicle (or, rather, the entire vehicle) certainly does.

Do you really need to pray to your lasgun every time you fire it?

Every time? No. Do you need to follow the maintenance ritual schedule in the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer as set down by the AdMech? Yes.

Oh that brings up another question about imperial tech. How much of the praying and charting is actually helpful and how much is just mambo jumbo. Dose a tech priest have to use the sacred oils (because they are a needed lubricant) or do they use them because they don't know any better.

It is possible to use a machine without following the proper protocols of ritual and obsequiousness... but the machine may (will) eventually stop working for you, and nothing apart from catching up on your rituals (with interest) is going to mollify the machine spirit and get it operational for you.

Some of the trappings of these rituals are, of course, actually necessary for the item... gun oil and various lubricants and such... while others aren't, really, excepting that the very act of ritual seems to work. Rubbing sacred unguent on a vox-caster is useless, because radios don't require oil... but it works anyway.

CrazyThang wrote:
Except the very existence of the Void Dragon and evidence such as Land Raiders driving with no crew points out the fallacy in that claim. Things can just have varying levels of machine-spirit. Do you really need to pray to your lasgun every time you fire it? No, it isn't really in that much control nor does it have that much "sentience". Do you need to make damn sure your Land Raider is happy? Hell yeah.

Landraiders, just like titans, have a primitive artificial intelligence. There is nothing magical about them. The Voiddragon on the other hand is an alien organism with some very advanced knowlege, but once again, no magic.
I have yet to read a single Black Library/ Dark Heresy book where it is stated that there realy is "a ghost in the machine" ( with the exception from artificial inteligences ).
On the other hand we have Mechanicum where a leading tech adept pretty much states that the whole machine spirit mumbo jumbo is idiocy. It is clear that you have to oil and mantain a machine to keep it working, but the machine, by virtue of being a machine, doesn't care if the oil is sacred or if you almost choke on sacred fumes. So no, a lasgun has no machine spirit, nor will your Leman Russ tank.
Praying to it won't help, mantaining it ( even to the rather distorted and ritualistic standards of the mechanicus ) will.

CrazyThang wrote:
Well, all machines have "Machine Spirit", a sort of sentience/awareness. They use the sacred oils and chant because it appeases the machine spirit. This gives the machine a greater likelihood to actually do what you want (such as a bolter firing without jamming). Things like lasguns may have a very weak machine spirit and may not really need to be handled so carefully, but it is tradition. Things like Land Raiders can have such strong machine spirits that they can pilot themselves or even fire their own weapons, obviously meaning you should take care of it so it takes care of you.

I am actually not familiar with "The pan was too small" would you mind explaining it to me

Lets see if i can 40k up the story.

One day a SM was learning how to use the flame thrower. Every time his instructor would reload, he would strap a piece of tape on the tank. The youg SM didn't know what this was for, so he asked. "Why do you put tape on the flame thrower?"

His instructor looked at him funny and gave a simple answer. "That's the way my instructor did it." The young SM wasn't satisfied, but he went on with training. Latter on, he went to see his chapter master and asked him the question. "Why do we put tape on the flame thrower?"

The chapter master shrugged his shoulders and answered. "That was just the way my instructor did it." The young SM was still wondering so he moved on and found the oldest dreadnought in the chapter. He was old and rusted, but full of wisdom and the young SM ,again, asked the question. "Why do we put tape on the flame thrower."

The dreadnought hissed and groaned before he spoke. "Because the tank use to leak."

@Psienesis: I'm not sure why you quoted me there, I was being rhetorical >.< though yes, you are correct in that the standard maintenance procedures do need to be followed.


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KingDeath wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:
Except the very existence of the Void Dragon and evidence such as Land Raiders driving with no crew points out the fallacy in that claim. Things can just have varying levels of machine-spirit. Do you really need to pray to your lasgun every time you fire it? No, it isn't really in that much control nor does it have that much "sentience". Do you need to make damn sure your Land Raider is happy? Hell yeah.

Landraiders, just like titans, have a primitive artificial intelligence. There is nothing magical about them. The Voiddragon on the other hand is an alien organism with some very advanced knowlege, but once again, no magic.

Yep, no magic at all. But the Machine Spirit is real.

@nomotog: Well, kind of. The Machine Spirit does need to be appeased (I think tape would make it angry) for everything to work as it should. What I'm trying to get at is that while you may need to do some standard maintenance and ritual on your every day lasgun to appease it, you wouldn't really have to pray every single time you fired or reloaded, etc. But with something as powerful as a Land Raider or Titan, it can actually take control, meaning the machine spirit is very much active and more responsive to being treated well.

In the novel Battle of the Fang (continued in spoilers due to minor spoilers.)

CrazyThang wrote:@Psienesis: I'm not sure why you quoted me there, I was being rhetorical >.< though yes, you are correct in that the standard maintenance procedures do need to be followed.


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KingDeath wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:
Except the very existence of the Void Dragon and evidence such as Land Raiders driving with no crew points out the fallacy in that claim. Things can just have varying levels of machine-spirit. Do you really need to pray to your lasgun every time you fire it? No, it isn't really in that much control nor does it have that much "sentience". Do you need to make damn sure your Land Raider is happy? Hell yeah.

Landraiders, just like titans, have a primitive artificial intelligence. There is nothing magical about them. The Voiddragon on the other hand is an alien organism with some very advanced knowlege, but once again, no magic.

Yep, no magic at all. But the Machine Spirit is real.

@nomotog: Well, kind of. The Machine Spirit does need to be appeased (I think tape would make it angry) for everything to work as it should. What I'm trying to get at is that while you may need to do some standard maintenance and ritual on your every day lasgun to appease it, you wouldn't really have to pray every single time you fired or reloaded, etc. But with something as powerful as a Land Raider or Titan, it can actually take control, meaning the machine spirit is very much active and more responsive to being treated well.

In the novel Battle of the Fang (continued in spoilers due to minor spoilers.)

Spoiler:

In the novel Battle of the Fang Blackwing is commanding a scout vessel. This vessel (the Naruu [spelling?]) is pushed very hard and never gets a chance for real repairs. The enginseers describe the machine spirit as screaming in agony and Blackwing comments that he's glad he isn't trained to hear it.

So the ship's computer is giving error messages and damage reports and instead of saying it this way the enginseer, because he doesn't know any better, states that it "screams in agony".
No machine spirit required, just normal technology misinterpreted because of a general lack of knowledge and an all pervading dogma.

He seemed to be quite literal about it.

Oh, uh, off-topic but to the Mod reading the thread... there was no racist/ethnic intent or undertone to the "gobbledy-*redacted*" phrase in a previous post of mine... that's just how that word is spelled, but has absolutely *nothing* to do with a racist term referring to people of Asian descent.

These two words happen to share an identical spelling, but in my usage of it, it has nothing to do with racism/ethnocentrism or anything of the sort.

OT: "Ghost in the Machine" may sound a bit too mystical, but it's not mystical in the sense that it's an actual "spirit"... though war-spirits and machine-spirits and these other pseudo-AI/Expert System machine intelligences certainly seem, to the layman of 40K, to be mystical in origin.

From Lexicanum: A machine spirit is what some refer to as a vehicle's automatic systems. The advanced system consists of a combination of organic and mechanical components within the vehicle, and is able to logically control the vehicle's movement and fire its weapons at enemies.

Just to clarify that.

Necron tech is so advanced that the IOM have abolutely no clue how it works, or how to duplicate it.

Not that it's all that uberpowerful, just really really advanced.

The ctan may as well have magic, since they can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

The old line about sufficiently complicated technology being indistinguishable from magic

The fluff has always described it as being a "ghost" of sorts. And besides, why can't the Imperium have those things? The Wraithguard and Wraithlords are walkers with the spirits of dead Eldar in them. Not the same I know, but close.

Ascalam wrote:Necron tech is so advanced that the IOM have abolutely no clue how it works, or how to duplicate it.

Not that it's all that uberpowerful, just really really advanced.

The ctan may as well have magic, since they can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

The old line about sufficiently complicated technology being indistinguishable from magic

Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." I love it so.

I totally forgot about the 'crons...

CrazyThang wrote:He seemed to be quite literal about it.

Because he lacks understanding. Or perhaps the messages are delivered in a way that is displeasing to the enginseers ears. But unless the ship actualy has, like titans, landraiders and perhaps a very few other pieces of imperial tech, an artificial inteligence aboard (which is actually possible) those "screams" were most likely normal warning messages, which, thanks to the enginseers dogmatic believes on how machines have to be sentient, were misinterpreted as actual pained expressions of a sentient mind.

What imo needs to be understood is that the Mechanicus does not manage to keep Imperial tech working ( and in some cases actually expanding ) because they cater to some religious and irrational dogma but
despite of it. Their saving grace is that many those strange rituals still carry a grain of actual knowledge, although burried within dogma and "magic", within them. Chanting the litany of activation while dancing around your computer will do nothing to it. But striking the sacred rune of activation at the end of the ritual will. Blessing the autogun with sacred oil won't help because the oil is sacred, but because the mechanism was in a dire need of lubrication.

Those few examples of Imperial technologies with a working artificial inteligence ( which is probably not realy sentient but works on an instinctual, animallike level in order not to repeat the mistake of creating human like inteligences ) probably need to be actively pacified, just like your badly parented ( is that the proper word in that context?) petdog would, after you stoped seeing yourself as his master and started to see him as your equal or even as someone who needs to be revered.

Machine Spirit =/= AI.

From Lexicanum: A machine spirit is what some refer to as a vehicle's automatic systems. The advanced system consists of a combination of organic and mechanical components within the vehicle, and is able to logically control the vehicle's movement and fire its weapons at enemies... The addition of a machine spirit is advantageous in the case of the vehicle's crew being killed or incapacitated, as the auto-systems are able to take control of the vehicle... The machine spirit however cannot fully replace the abilities of trained human pilots. Going that far could garner the attention of the Inquisition.

This would garner the attention of the Inquisition as no true AIs are permitted.

Eldar "technology" doesn't belong to Eldar. They were created and uplifted at the same time by the Old Ones.

Eldar didn't invent anything; they never have, they never will. That's the consequence of uplifting a race; if you give them everything they'll ever need, they won't make anything new. It's why their technology has been static for 65 million years.

DarknessEternal wrote:Eldar "technology" doesn't belong to Eldar. They were created and uplifted at the same time by the Old Ones.

Eldar didn't invent anything; they never have, they never will. That's the consequence of uplifting a race; if you give them everything they'll ever need, they won't make anything new. It's why their technology has been static for 65 million years.

Where do you get that information? I've never heard that. (Not the being created by the old ones, I mean having everything given to them.)

CrazyThang wrote:
Where do you get that information? I've never heard that. (Not the being created by the old ones, I mean having everything given to them.)

Codexes Eldar through Necron.

DarknessEternal wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:
Where do you get that information? I've never heard that. (Not the being created by the old ones, I mean having everything given to them.)

Codexes Eldar through Necron.

I have seen this in neither the 3rd nor 4th edition Eldar codices. Can i get a quote or something? Not trying to be a pain, but I tried looking it up just now and can't find anything.

nomotog wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:
Well, all machines have "Machine Spirit", a sort of sentience/awareness. They use the sacred oils and chant because it appeases the machine spirit. This gives the machine a greater likelihood to actually do what you want (such as a bolter firing without jamming). Things like lasguns may have a very weak machine spirit and may not really need to be handled so carefully, but it is tradition. Things like Land Raiders can have such strong machine spirits that they can pilot themselves or even fire their own weapons, obviously meaning you should take care of it so it takes care of you.

I am actually not familiar with "The pan was too small" would you mind explaining it to me

Lets see if i can 40k up the story.

One day a SM was learning how to use the flame thrower. Every time his instructor would reload, he would strap a piece of tape on the tank. The youg SM didn't know what this was for, so he asked. "Why do you put tape on the flame thrower?"

His instructor looked at him funny and gave a simple answer. "That's the way my instructor did it." The young SM wasn't satisfied, but he went on with training. Latter on, he went to see his chapter master and asked him the question. "Why do we put tape on the flame thrower?"

The chapter master shrugged his shoulders and answered. "That was just the way my instructor did it." The young SM was still wondering so he moved on and found the oldest dreadnought in the chapter. He was old and rusted, but full of wisdom and the young SM ,again, asked the question. "Why do we put tape on the flame thrower."

The dreadnought hissed and groaned before he spoke. "Because the tank use to leak."

Yep, pretty much.

DarknessEternal wrote:Eldar "technology" doesn't belong to Eldar. They were created and uplifted at the same time by the Old Ones.

Eldar didn't invent anything; they never have, they never will. That's the consequence of uplifting a race; if you give them everything they'll ever need, they won't make anything new. It's why their technology has been static for 65 million years.

I'll take your word for it, as I do not know much of Eldar fluff.

I've never heard this about the Eldar never creating new technology either. But there is definitely some truth to machine spirits. In Blood Reaver:

That wouldn't have happened if the machine spirit was just religious babble, there is definitely something there.

I have more question. What ork warband has the most advanced tech?

nomotog wrote:I have more question. What ork warband has the most advanced tech?

I assume Thrakas clan would, but IDK.

I personally think the Machine Spirit is generally just the computer/basic AI in imperial equipment, as to most advanced race I have to give it to the Necrons, FTL travel faster than everyone elses and no use of the warp, least advanced clearly goes to tyranids.

Ork tech is very hit and miss, and tech level varies wildly in any warband.

One may have awesome tellyportas, but crude guns, another have many shokk attack guns, but vehicles that break down even more than usual etc..

Sometimes I get the impression that the AdMech probably use mystical-sounding language to keep the masses ignorant of how technology really works. For example, in one of the first two Cain books they need to focus a holographic display (or something like that) and a techpriest fixes it by doing "the rituals of focusing." In this case I would guess that the "ritual" probably consists of turning a dial. They would probably call entering the password into a computer something like the "ritual of unlocking."

KingDeath wrote:

On the other hand we have Mechanicum where a leading tech adept pretty much states that the whole machine spirit mumbo jumbo is idiocy. It is clear that you have to oil and mantain a machine to keep it working, but the machine, by virtue of being a machine, doesn't care if the oil is sacred or if you almost choke on sacred fumes. So no, a lasgun has no machine spirit, nor will your Leman Russ tank.
Praying to it won't help, mantaining it ( even to the rather distorted and ritualistic standards of the mechanicus ) will.

I haven't read Mechanicum, but I've nearly finished Titanicus and I would say the AdMech in that are similar. They're not performing special rituals every time they want to use technology. For example, an enginseer runs an auspex off his own internal power supply and later replenishes his power from a generator, and I don't remember there being any mention of him having to placate the machines or thank them afterwards. In fact the whole depiction of the Noosphere in Titanicus shows that they quite casually use highly advanced technology all the time.

KingDeath wrote:So the ship's computer is giving error messages and damage reports and instead of saying it this way the enginseer, because he doesn't know any better, states that it "screams in agony".
No machine spirit required, just normal technology misinterpreted because of a general lack of knowledge and an all pervading dogma.

In RL I perceive bad block disk errors in the system event log on a Windows box as screams of agony.

necron far and away have the most advanced technology. its stated in the necron codex, and the apocalypse one.

Necrons > Eldar > Tau > Imperium > Orks for mechanical technology imo. Orks themselves can create some wonders but I'd place them lower as the machines are even more unstable than Imperial ones.

Tau technology is easily equal to Eldar technology and superior and inferior in many ways.

An absence of psi-tech doesn't equate to any kind of inferior technology, just different technology that sometimes proves superior or inferior. Lances bouncing off a monolith vs railguns putting a hole in it is one shining example. However, the Howling Banshee's Blade being more cutty with a mere thought is also a great example.

We can also look at something like Shield Drones, a drone that takes a powerful hit for another unit. This while not psi-tech, is vastly superior to hoping your wraithbone holds up against that lascannon hit.


Necrons > Eldar = Tau > IoM > Orkz

Can't argue with Necrons being top dogs, they landed on Mars for crap sake. For any ship to breach the planets defenses, let alone land on the surface is nothing short of amazing in 40K.

'Can't argue with Necrons being top dogs, they landed on Mars for crap sake. For any ship to breach the planets defenses, let alone land on the surface is nothing short of amazing in 40K. '


Doubly so with a tiny flotilla of 5 light ships, and 'at fearful cost' to destroy them


I'd argue that tau tech is slightly behind Eldar, but rapidly accelerating, whereas the eldar tech is unchanging.

Do necros advance in technology?

Given that they have been asleep for aeons, not really.

A few of the lords are still sentient, so maybe advances could be made if they can remember enough of their scientific background..

So are tau the only ones who advance tech then?

nomotog wrote:So are tau the only ones who advance tech then?

On the scale they create, yes.

Minor revamps like the Lucifer Engines the Blood Angels use or new bolter rounds are also pioneered, but the Tau are the only Codexed race to actually build new technology on the scale of constant advancement. This means things like new suits, ships, rifles, stealth gens, etc etc.

There's a tiny bit of innovation in the IOM, but very very slowly, with many cries of 'heresy!' along the way.

If we include biotech the nids are continually advancing/evolving.

Orks tech isn't a constant across the whole race (except for it being constantly unreliable), so innovations probably do occur at a local level, but not across al ork-kind at once.

The eldar are static, as are the Necrons, pretty much, though new units for both will be explained as having been in mothballs for millenia and finally unearthed for use.

The Dark Eldar innovate Their tech level is probably higher than the eldar, being tech rather than wraithbone.

The Tau are the fastest growing techbase though, from 0-60 in a few centuries flat Kind of like the jump from the 1800's to current tech levels.

I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

Justus wrote:I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

That is true. With multiple different gods from different races (the Eldar gods and the Chaos gods, and you *might* be able to include the Emperor, but he is not truly a god), and psychic energy, having a true spirit in a machine is not too far fetched. Plus, it would be cool that your giant Land Raider has a spirit inside of its mechanical parts.


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forruner_mercy wrote:

Justus wrote:I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

That is true. With multiple different gods from different races (the Eldar gods and the Chaos gods, and you *might* be able to include the Emperor, but he is not truly a god), and psychic energy, having a true spirit in a machine is not too far fetched. Plus, it would be cool that your giant Land Raider has a spirit inside of its mechanical parts.

EDIT:
Actually, the Emperor is described as a god, with a good portion of his soul being the Star Child. When he truly dies, his entire psychic entity will wipe out the Chaos gods. But that is only the information on the Star Child. Either way, he is usually described as an actual god.

Justus wrote:I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

I can't see how something that is used to show how "grimdark" and backwards the imperium of man is can be taken at face value.
And yes, you must look further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" rule. Just because some pieces of Imperial technology are equiped with a semi autonomous bio-mechanical mechanism
does not mean that transcendend, "magical" machine spirits inhabit every piece of technology.

True, your lasgun doesn't have a machine spirit, any ritualistic chanting to keep it working is simply near religious dogma. The Land Raider, and several other larger pieces of machinery do have literal "spirits" due to a combination of automated systems and biological components which together makes a primitive AI, without the capacity to freely think.
One such example of a prevailing personality in a machine is Incardinine in The First Heretic. Despite numerous mind-wipes, it still sees itself as part of The Word Bearers Legion, which at the time, the Tech adept in charge couldn't explain.

iproxtaco wrote:True, your lasgun doesn't have a machine spirit, any ritualistic chanting to keep it working is simply near religious dogma. The Land Raider, and several other larger pieces of machinery do have literal "spirits" due to a combination of automated systems and biological components which together makes a primitive AI, without the capacity to freely think.
One such example of a prevailing personality in a machine is Incardinine in The First Heretic. Despite numerous mind-wipes, it still sees itself as part of The Word Bearers Legion, which at the time, the Tech adept in charge couldn't explain.

Spot on, machine spirits are just primative AI. The Ad mech control technology by creating an illusion of mystical bull.

Basically, KingDeath was there in the first post, it's a primitive bio-tech AI, to which the Imperiums usual religious dogma has been attributed. Thus, depsite it being a simple technological phenomenon, it is believed to be a mystical "spirit" inside a machine. There's no doubting however, that they are semi-aware of their surroundings, and can feel some form of pain or discomfort on the technological level, like losing a part or taking an impact, which explains this "screaming" that a certain tech-adept heard, or the Land Raider on Rynns world fighting off hordes of Orks on its own, betraying a sense of loyalty to its masters, or a primitive animal drive to survive.

It's AI. While it may be semi biological it's still just an advanced computer. Most admech don't understand how these things work and find it easier to view as a living thing. Screaming in agony is just displaying warning message that it's been damaged. The desire to stay alive comes from the AIs programing. An AI in a LR is going to try and prevent the vehicle taking damage- to someone who doesn't understand what an AI is it would appear that the LR is alive. There are suggestions in some books that the machine spirit can favor some people. It is possible that the machine spirit is able to learn and so after being used by one person for a long period of time would function in a way that helps their style. Having a disagreement with the machine spirit is just trying to accomplish differnt things. If you want to drive forward and the AI doesn't you will have to overcome it.

All references to the machine spirit in low level technology are just superstition. Only important technology gets AIs. Everything else is just superstition used to explain why lasguns need lubrication or why a computer can only be turned on by pushing the on button.

It's not a full AI, it's a simple AI, without the creative thought process and free-thinking decision making ability that we have. It's also not just an advanced computer, it's the biological components that make it a simple AI. Essentially, it has a semi-aware personality, the interpretation of "screaming" is just a warning, but the Machine Spirit is aware of the fact that it has pieces missing.

iproxtaco wrote:It's not a full AI, it's a simple AI, without the creative thought process and free-thinking decision making ability that we have. It's also not just an advanced computer, it's the biological components that make it a simple AI. Essentially, it has a semi-aware personality.

Is it trully biological? Since warning alarms could easily be taken as'Screams of pain'

Not fully, but the biological components allow for a rudimentary personality within the machine. Everything is tech-based, the screams are warnings, but the "spirit" inside the Ship is aware of the damage it has taken.

Harriticus wrote:Necrons > Eldar > Tau > Imperium > Orks for mechanical technology imo. Orks themselves can create some wonders but I'd place them lower as the machines are even more unstable than Imperial ones.

This I agree with. However the IoM lost most of thier tech after the DaoT. if you are looking that far back I would say the Iom has some fancy gadgets comparable with current eldar tech. Pity the mechanicum is so dense, they don't want to reverse engineer most things as it is considered heresy.

If the AI has human components, that might mean they have a warp presence and a soul. Maybe.

Do the tyranids understand anything about technology? Like could they pick up a gun, recognize that a tank is not just a real big animal, or know what a com link is and what they can do with it?

Do the tau have nano technology?

What sides can terraform planets?

@Nomotog: Tyranids have biomorphs which give them weapons which they can control like an arm or leg. They have a general idea of what a tank or gun is from the fact it doesnt have a bio signature, i.e. it doesnt have a heart beat or give out organic materials usually produced by an organism.

The IoM terraforms planets all the time.

Eldar at least used to be able to terraform planets, don't know if they still can. Tyranids also do, but obviously not by technological means.

@manalorynoranj: Yeah but there form of terraforming generally leaves the world lifeless... kinda the opposite of the standard practice of terraforming if you ask me

nomotog wrote:Do necros advance in technology?

Their technology is 65 million years old and is still practically magic to the rest of the galaxy. There's not so much need. Also, they've been sleeping in that time, so who knows if they'll get back on the science stick now that they're awake; the next codex will let us know.

Also, the Necron technology we've been seeing is basically their farming equipment. Their war machines haven't been seen yet.

In terms of technology this is how it works:

Necrons have the most advanced technology in the galaxy. But their tech is not compatible with warp and they themselves do not have a freedom to invent new things or upgrade.

Eldar have 2'nd advanced technology in the galaxy, but they received all that from the Old Ones, and they like the IoM can't build some things ( liek the Webway gate ).

Tau have rail and plasma technology, but don't have warp or teleportation technology at all. And their warp drive is quite primitive.

Imperium of Man just have technology from the Dark age of Technology, but even this that they have is more advanced then Tau and Eldar tech. But, they have a ton of things for what they lack STC and when those things broke down, they are broke down for good - or at least until they found STC for that.

Orks are just using Imperium technology.

Tyranids are all organic.

Dark Eldar are using Eldar tech, but with little more warp and dark matter touch to it.

In terms of technology, except Necrons none has the advantage. In addition to all of this, only Imperium and Tau are upgrading their tech and inventing new things.

Brother Coa wrote:
Orks are just using Imperium technology.

Ork tech levels are based on what the Orks need at the time. They inherited the scientific advances of the Old Ones the same as the Eldar, but theirs is gene-encoded, rather than understood.

Brother Coa wrote:
Tyranids are all organic.

So are Space Marines, that doesn't mean they aren't technology.

Orks tech levels are extremely high. They are above the IoM in technology levels. Don't confuse appearance with how effective it is. Orks have no desire to make the technology look nice but it's more functional than imperial tech. Orks have man portable force fields and guns that fire things via the warp. The imperial has the technology but it's no so effective. There most accurate warp transportation (deep striking) is still much less accurate than a Shokk Attack gun and their force fields require huge machines to generate.

The IoM's technology level is very low. They have a lot of good equipment but they very little idea of how it works.

The Tau are slightly more advanced than the Imperium but their technology is designed from a very different perspective so it's hard to compare. Their lack of warp transport isn't due to lack of understanding. The Tau have Imperial warp drives and could duplicate them- however they know what is inside the warp and want to stay away from it.

The Tyranids are extremely advanced.They have the ability to mass produce genetically engineered troops at an amazing speed. Their technology is more efficient than most of the other factions.

The Imperium does have more advanced tech than the Tau they just can't distribute and produce them through the entire Imperium. It is easier for Tau to all have pulse rifle because their empire is small and every army has railguns because they don't need trillions of them like the IOM would. If I'm not mistaken the railgun is close to if not the top of their advanced tech and you can't compare that to the IOM most advanced most likely the vortex missile. It's just impossible to give every single army in the IOM a vortex missile or every soldier a gun more advanced then a lasgun as it would be to expensive at this scale. The Tau are catching up fast as they haven't peaked yet like the IOM has, but I don't think they're there yet. It's very hard to debate it though because their economies and size are very different.
Necrons>Eldar>IOM>Tau>Orks

If the IoM could just get past their whole "heresy" thing, I am sure that they could make some pretty impressive stuff, like more true AI's, like the Men of Iron.

I do understand why they don't, due to the Men of Iron. But the IoM calls any true AI "heresy".

Brother Coa wrote:
Tau have rail and plasma technology, but don't have warp or teleportation technology at all. And their warp drive is quite primitive.

This is because they lack the navigator gene and have very little warp presence whatsoever, so if you can say Tyranid tech doesn't exist because they're all organic then the fish people should get let off when they have odd genetics .

Brother Coa wrote:
Orks are just using Imperium technology.

Not true. Orks have an inbuilt ability with technology. They may not understand it, but they're masters at working with it. They can salvage most other races technology, and turn it in to whatever they want, and alot of things they have far exceed even Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

forruner_mercy wrote:If the IoM could just get past their whole "heresy" thing, I am sure that they could make some pretty impressive stuff, like more true AI's, like the Men of Iron.

I do understand why they don't, due to the Men of Iron. But the IoM calls any true AI "heresy".

It's something to do with a whole Skynet thing were the Men of Iron rebelled and billions died. They then declared AI dangerous, and since the IoM is insane they think it must be heretical.

4M2A wrote:Orks tech levels are extremely high.

4M2A wrote:
They are above the IoM in technology levels.

so youre a comedian?

4M2A wrote:Don't confuse appearance with how effective it is. Orks have no desire to make the technology look nice but it's more functional than imperial tech.

Right. Orkz attach useless stuff to make them not look nice.....
The instabillity is also desired and makes it moar funtastic, because orkz love big xsplosions and don't mind if theyre part of the ka-boom..

4M2A wrote:
Orks have man portable force fields and guns that fire things via the warp. The imperial has the technology but it's no so effective. There most accurate warp transportation (deep striking) is still much less accurate than a Shokk Attack gun and their force fields require huge machines to generate.

"Gate of infinity". Less acurate than a shokk attack gun?
This oh so great force field isn't used by the IoM, because the IoM insists on real void shielding, not cover saves.
So please point out where the ork equivalent to imperial shields is mounted on something smaller than a stompa.

4M2A wrote:
The IoM's technology level is very low.

Maybe these stone age worlds ruin the tech level a bit, but generally the greatest variety is found in the IoM.
Thus its impossible to estimate a tech level without a source of each systems tech level.
Maybe easy to assume a tech level for those with a realm wide level like Eldar, but usually its only smaller factions that get such.

4M2A wrote:
The Tau have Imperial warp drives and could duplicate them- however they know what is inside the warp and want to stay away from it.

They don't have warp drives and they know gak about the warp.
The only thing Tau know in general is which entry to the warp is a forbidden zone. So the Tau want to stay away since the etherals
ordered it. They would stay away from a space - casino, -zoo, resort, too if it was a "no-go" zone as per their leading caste.



Tech levels:

1 necron/Ctan (masters of the material realm, tech "magic")
2 old ones bio engeneering, webway ( didn't save them...)
3 eldar, dark eldar ( trained by the old ones )
4 jokaero ( can build anything with a few scraps..)
5 Iom, orks ( one doesn't remember where to look, the other doesn't care for the past or the future )
6 Tau ( clean tech, but not the experience of ancient races and cannot "upgrade" tech by using another dimension like others do )

4M2A wrote:Orks tech levels are extremely high. They are above the IoM in technology levels.

This is great, I will just add this to my collection.

The IoM does have very powerful plasma weapons, more powerful then the Tau and Eldar of the other races. The only problem is that the weapons are very unstable. If guardsmen that is carrying a plasma gun gets shot at and a round hits the casing on the top, the whole thing pretty much explodes and vaporizes everything around it. This is increased tenfold if a Leman Russ Executioner blows up.

Although, the Tyranid bio-plasma is arguably as good, but I do not know much of the fluff behind it. So any help there would be appreciated.

The Eldar only has one plasma weapon, as far as I know and that is the starcannon. But again, no know fluff behind it.

The Tau have a plasma rifle, though it is less powerful but more reliable then the Imperial plasma gun. But considering that 40K is grimdark and whatnot, the Imperium does not care about its guardsmen.

KingDeath wrote:

Justus wrote:I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

I can't see how something that is used to show how "grimdark" and backwards the imperium of man is can be taken at face value.
And yes, you must look further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" rule. Just because some pieces of Imperial technology are equiped with a semi autonomous bio-mechanical mechanism
does not mean that transcendend, "magical" machine spirits inhabit every piece of technology.

Ahhhh I see. I wasn't trying to say the Machine Spirit was ACTUALLY a magical spirit thing, just real.

@forruner_mercy: The starcannon has a more narrow focus for it's shots (hence str 6) but has some form of generically named "containment field" to provide safety (thus, no "Gets Hot!").

Brother Coa wrote:

4M2A wrote:Orks tech levels are extremely high. They are above the IoM in technology levels.

This is great, I will just add this to my collection.

Name any race that has produced something as advanced as an SAG.
It creates a tunnel through the warp. You press a switch and you can do what took the Old Ones decades-make a Webway portal. Short of a Blackstone Fortress, this is one of the most advanced weapons in the galaxy. And you can't mount a Blackstone Fortress on your back.

A D-Cannon mayhaps? It literally tears a hole into the warp in real space.

A bit cruder, effect wise, than boring a semi-stable tunnel through the warp. A whole lot more reliable though

I feel forced to point out that only the orks can make a man portable ordinance weapon

Of course only the orks would think it a good idea to pack an unstable worm-hole generator on their shoulder and use it as a weapon...


The KMB deserves a mention also. It is a more powerful Plasmagun equivilent that can be used as an assault weapon (even if it does only get one shot ) and officially speaking isn't a plasma weapon, subject to nerfing


Ork tech is so random that it hits heights of genius that no-one can match at times, and abysmally low deeps that any non-ork would never plummet down at others..

Brother Coa wrote:In terms of technology this is how it works:

Necrons have the most advanced technology in the galaxy. But their tech is not compatible with warp and they themselves do not have a freedom to invent new things or upgrade.

Eldar have 2'nd advanced technology in the galaxy, but they received all that from the Old Ones, and they like the IoM can't build some things ( liek the Webway gate ).

Tau have rail and plasma technology, but don't have warp or teleportation technology at all. And their warp drive is quite primitive.

Imperium of Man just have technology from the Dark age of Technology, but even this that they have is more advanced then Tau and Eldar tech. But, they have a ton of things for what they lack STC and when those things broke down, they are broke down for good - or at least until they found STC for that.

Orks are just using Imperium technology.

Tyranids are all organic.

Dark Eldar are using Eldar tech, but with little more warp and dark matter touch to it.

In terms of technology, except Necrons none has the advantage. In addition to all of this, only Imperium and Tau are upgrading their tech and inventing new things.

If the IoM and the Tau built a toaster...

The Tau toaster would toast your toast almost instantly and at a perfect degree to what you wanted.

The Imperium toaster would be the size of a car and need for you to pray at it to work. At this point, it would either explode, incinerate your house, or make you a delicious piece of toast. All the while you wouldn't understand the need for a giant 3 foot mechanical arm on it.


Basically, Tau technology is practical and makes sense, Imperial tech apart from a few trusty designs like Lastech and Power armor is largely impractical. While people laugh at the Tau inability to travel in the warp, it is also a wiser choice to forgo warp travel until you perfect a Necron-ish style of FTL.

The Necron toaster would not only Particle-whip your toast from existence, but kill everyone in the room with mass gauss flux arc fire, all while drifting slowlyand ominously across the room..

'When you absolutely, positively have to kill every person in the breakfast nook, accept no substitutes....'

Nicholas wrote:The Imperium does have more advanced tech than the Tau they just can't distribute and produce them through the entire Imperium. It is easier for Tau to all have pulse rifle because their empire is small and every army has railguns because they don't need trillions of them like the IOM would. If I'm not mistaken the railgun is close to if not the top of their advanced tech and you can't compare that to the IOM most advanced most likely the vortex missile. It's just impossible to give every single army in the IOM a vortex missile or every soldier a gun more advanced then a lasgun as it would be to expensive at this scale. The Tau are catching up fast as they haven't peaked yet like the IOM has, but I don't think they're there yet. It's very hard to debate it though because their economies and size are very different.
Necrons>Eldar>IOM>Tau>Orks

I don't think it has much to do with how big each empire is. It has more to do with tech mastery. If the IoM knew more about there tech, then every ship could have vortex misses. When the tau get bigger, they will still give their base troops pulse rifles (you know unless they get the ion rifles by then) because they are masters of their tech.

Comparing IoM and tau is hard because they have different combat doctrines.

nomotog wrote:

Nicholas wrote:The Imperium does have more advanced tech than the Tau they just can't distribute and produce them through the entire Imperium. It is easier for Tau to all have pulse rifle because their empire is small and every army has railguns because they don't need trillions of them like the IOM would. If I'm not mistaken the railgun is close to if not the top of their advanced tech and you can't compare that to the IOM most advanced most likely the vortex missile. It's just impossible to give every single army in the IOM a vortex missile or every soldier a gun more advanced then a lasgun as it would be to expensive at this scale. The Tau are catching up fast as they haven't peaked yet like the IOM has, but I don't think they're there yet. It's very hard to debate it though because their economies and size are very different.
Necrons>Eldar>IOM>Tau>Orks

I don't think it has much to do with how big each empire is. It has more to do with tech mastery. If the IoM knew more about there tech, then every ship could have vortex misses. When the tau get bigger, they will still give their base troops pulse rifles (you know unless they get the ion rifles by then) because they are masters of their tech.

Comparing IoM and tau is hard because they have different combat doctrines.

But we can't JUST think of weapons tech. On rich enough planets in the IoM, people can get air-cars and whatnot. I have NO idea what civilian Tau tech is, though, so...

Nicholas wrote:The Imperium does have more advanced tech than the Tau they just can't distribute and produce them through the entire Imperium. It is easier for Tau to all have pulse rifle because their empire is small and every army has railguns because they don't need trillions of them like the IOM would. If I'm not mistaken the railgun is close to if not the top of their advanced tech and you can't compare that to the IOM most advanced most likely the vortex missile. It's just impossible to give every single army in the IOM a vortex missile or every soldier a gun more advanced then a lasgun as it would be to expensive at this scale. The Tau are catching up fast as they haven't peaked yet like the IOM has, but I don't think they're there yet. It's very hard to debate it though because their economies and size are very different.
Necrons>Eldar>IOM>Tau>Orks

The Imperium of Man also has a much larger theoretical and actual manufacturing base. Their problem is the extreme and frankly unnecessary centralisation of certain technologies. This is owed to the dogmatic and petty nature of the techpriests which prefer to hoard their knowledge instead of distributing it, even amongst themselfs.

We don't know a lot about tau civilian tech, but we can make guess from what we do know. The tau can make flying cars (all their vehicles are flying so ya) & we can also guess that they have a large number of drones to handle different jobs. The tau don't have a lot of variable tech levels. If they have combat robots, they get the civilian befits that come form knowing how to make giant robots. (Like auto kitchens and things.)

As far as Land Raiders and their Machine Spirit are concerned, I do recall some old official drawing (probably from the days of Rogue Trader?) that actually showed a human brain wired deep into the vehicle's internal systems.

The way I see it, the so-called Machine Spirit can either be attributed to a cogitator unit or pure superstition, resulting out of the teachings of the Cult Mechanicus and depending on the size of the respective machine/equipment. It goes to show how far mankind has devolved into a scared mass of people desperatly clinging to religious dogma and the status-quo instead of looking forward and risking progress. It's the Dark Ages all over. It's the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium. Not some fancy fantasy sorcery.*

I suppose that some licensed products such as novels may occasionally try to tell a different thing, but that's based purely on the individual author's perception and doesn't really swing with what I've read of GW so far. Novels are, in the end, not canon but just the author's interpretation and personal preference. The same goes for any Lexicanum articles referencing their work, so I'd recommend against trusting a wiki too much (though it is an extremely good index).

*: Unless we're talking psychic phenomena - it is entirely possible that some incidents attributed to Machine Spirits are the results of subconscious thoughts and superstition paired with a nascent psyker gene and/or the combined faith of a lot of misled people.

Think about it: People are already talking to their cars and computers today - fast forward a few dozen millennia and you have a psychically active humanity accidentally creating a "Machine Spirit" just because enough people think they exist!

Wait so gates of infinity proves the imperials have equal teleporting tech. Isn't that a phychic power- which makes it irrelavant in this discussion.

Orks have reserved their biggest shield for stompas but the IoM only give void shields to their biggest machines. I don't see the difference

The IoM have no commonly issued weapons that can do anything like the SAG or Ork forcefield. The force fiedls they do have are constantly being tended to by the admech where as the orks just make theirs out of scrap.
Not even the Eldars D- Cannon is as advanced as a SAG. The D-cannon just rips a hole into the warp. The SAG rips a whole into the warp, fires a grot safely (most survive the journey) and accurately through the warp and back into realspace. It's almost a man portable webway generator. The Imperials have nothing as advanced as that. Their warp drives are huge and are horribly inaccurate.

4M2A wrote:Wait so gates of infinity proves the imperials have equal teleporting tech. Isn't that a phychic power- which makes it irrelavant in this discussion.

Orks have reserved their biggest shield for stompas but the IoM only give void shields to their biggest machines. I don't see the difference

The IoM have no commonly issued weapons that can do anything like the SAG or Ork forcefield. The force fiedls they do have are constantly being tended to by the admech where as the orks just make theirs out of scrap.
Not even the Eldars D- Cannon is as advanced as a SAG. The D-cannon just rips a hole into the warp. The SAG rips a whole into the warp, fires a grot safely (most survive the journey) and accurately through the warp and back into realspace. It's almost a man portable webway generator. The Imperials have nothing as advanced as that. Their warp drives are huge and are horribly inaccurate.

That's what rocks about Orkz! They go, "well boyz, dis gun shootz tru da warp fing and sendz da grot boyz to da udder side 'o da linez!"

"Den wot youse wait fer boyz?! Build a fousand of em!"


Orkz could turn a deck of cards into a C'tan killing hand grenade if you gave em enough time and bitz lol

4M2A wrote:Wait so gates of infinity proves the imperials have equal teleporting tech. Isn't that a phychic power- which makes it irrelavant in this discussion.

Orks have reserved their biggest shield for stompas but the IoM only give void shields to their biggest machines. I don't see the difference

The IoM have no commonly issued weapons that can do anything like the SAG or Ork forcefield. The force fiedls they do have are constantly being tended to by the admech where as the orks just make theirs out of scrap.
Not even the Eldars D- Cannon is as advanced as a SAG. The D-cannon just rips a hole into the warp. The SAG rips a whole into the warp, fires a grot safely (most survive the journey) and accurately through the warp and back into realspace. It's almost a man portable webway generator. The Imperials have nothing as advanced as that. Their warp drives are huge and are horribly inaccurate.

Of course the warp drives are huge they are on giant fething SPACE SHIPS. And a warp drive =/= a SAG. I don't know why you think they are so unreliable. Tons and tons of ships go through the warp every "day" and very few end in disaster (but it is a common fear). It's like saying cars are unsafe because there are a lot of car accidents.

Besides, Eldar jump packs send the user through the warp as well, almost all of them survive.

Yes but even the machines used to teleport terminators are huge. There was a peice of fluff (about GKs I believe) and they could barely fit into the teleporting room.

It's not just ships that are unreliable. Deepstriking without a teleport homer is very difficult. Where orks are capable of hitting one individual Imperial's have trouble just hitting the right building.

4M2A wrote:Yes but even the machines used to teleport terminators are huge. There was a peice of fluff (about GKs I believe) and they could barely fit into the teleporting room.

It's not just ships that are unreliable. Deepstriking without a teleport homer is very difficult. Where orks are capable of hitting one individual Imperial's have trouble just hitting the right building.

Orks need buildings to teleport as well. They don't use SAGs to shoot their boyz everywhere. It honestly has very little to do with actual teleportation technology as it applies to the movement of troops and such.

Besides, basing an argument off of one specific example in regards to something where SOOOO many other examples beat out the orks is silly.

MandalorynOranj wrote:That wouldn't have happened if the machine spirit was just religious babble, there is definitely something there.

But that's just a novel, isn't it?

That said ... what exactly is this "Covenant of Blood"? If it's like a Land Raider I could totally picture the human brain wired into the machinery to develop some sort of personality over the ages, essentially "infecting" the cogitator unit slaved to the biological parts...

If it'd be a true machine with a personality that sounds very much like an AI, and the AdMech doesn't like that.

4M2A wrote:Wait so gates of infinity proves the imperials have equal teleporting tech. Isn't that a psychic power- which makes it irrelavant in this discussion.

Not really. Orkz are created as a psychic race ( but different to the eldars ) so without their belief it would not work and thus without
a "psychic" contribution there is no "warp channelling".
Plus the imperials are only outdone in teleporting by necrons, those they learned it possibly from.

4M2A wrote:Orks have reserved their biggest shield for stompas but the IoM only give void shields to their biggest machines. I don't see the difference

The difference is the IoM has no interest in cover saves as lots of imperial weapons not only ignore but also remove cover and all these
hiding there too. So only shields who protect against most weapons are of interest.
The imperium prefers fortifications if at all, and regularly builds it. Bunkers and trenches grant a better save than your crappy force field and cover more troops at once.

4M2A wrote: The SAG rips a whole into the warp, fires a grot safely (most survive the journey) and accurately through the warp and back into realspace. It's almost a man portable webway generator. The Imperials have nothing as advanced as that. Their warp drives are huge and are horribly inaccurate.

Grots are so expendable, their "safety" counts for nothing.
They often don't arrive, being snatched by warp-dwelling creatures in their venture and commonly end up inside of things, so this
webway is vastly superior to the SAG ( shoot a grot ) gun. I don't see the meks willingly travelling with SAG as their method of transport.
About warp-drives :Not sure if the orks are so proud of it, cause bigger is better is one of their favourites.
Orks also travel in space hulks and don't care for the destination, so accuracy is unimportant too.
Seems like orks would love any imperial warp drive they can loot...

Orks don't SAG into battle deliberately. Accidentally, sometimes, but not on purpose.

They do use Tellyportas, but they aren't small, from the fluff i've read. They're usually built into Roks.

Frankly i'd trust an IOM or Ork Teleporter about as much as i would an original series Trek one. Not a lot...

Lynata wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:That wouldn't have happened if the machine spirit was just religious babble, there is definitely something there.

But that's just a novel, isn't it?

That said ... what exactly is this "Covenant of Blood"? If it's like a Land Raider I could totally picture the human brain wired into the machinery to develop some sort of personality over the ages, essentially "infecting" the cogitator unit slaved to the biological parts...

If it'd be a true machine with a personality that sounds very much like an AI, and the AdMech doesn't like that.

The Covenant of Blood is a Night Lords strike cruiser. And I'm sorry, but it kind of bothers me when people talk about novels as if they are not legitimate sources of fluff. To be published by Black Library it has to be approved, and Black Library IS a division of GW. It doesn't make sense when people say that the codexes are the only real fluff. So basically there are only ~15 fluff sources out there? I don't mean this as a personal attack or anything, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

MandalorynOranj wrote:The Covenant of Blood is a Night Lords strike cruiser.

Ah! Thanks - yeah, I could easily see such a vessel having similar cogitation mechanisms. Though it could even be explained by daemonic corruption?

MandalorynOranj wrote:And I'm sorry, but it kind of bothers me when people talk about novels as if they are not legitimate sources of fluff. To be published by Black Library it has to be approved, and Black Library IS a division of GW. It doesn't make sense when people say that the codexes are the only real fluff. So basically there are only ~15 fluff sources out there? I don't mean this as a personal attack or anything, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Understandable - I thought exactly the same way not too long ago! It's just that the more I read in terms of BL books, the more I noticed contradictions, not only between the novels but even to core aspects of the Codex material. So I started doing some research and dug up stuff like:
- Gav Thorpe saying that GW picks and adopts BL stuff they like whilst discarding the rest (source)
- George Mann saying that the novels are just "interpretations" of their individual authors (source)
- Aaron Dembski-Bowden saying that BL has no requirements for novels to be consistent to each other whatsoever (source)
etc...

And these days, I'm grateful for that. Trust me, I'd really love a consistent setting where every single licensed source would be a reliable addition to the setting, like in Star Wars. But we do not have this situation. Instead we get backflipping Terminator Sergeants carrying Cyclone launchers as backup on their backs, Sisters of Battle drinking alcohol, playing cards and sleeping around due to boredom, D-cannons firing projectiles, or multilasers as the new standard issue primary weapon of the Space Marines, whose height changes between 7 and 9 feet every other month depending on who writes the newest book.

And that's why I tend to adopt licensed stuff only where it does not conflict with GW material - as only GW knows which direction it wants to go.

Also, sadly BL's editing/approval process does not appear to be as thorough - see the source next to the point regarding Mr. Mann.

Like I said, I've argued on your side of the fence for several years, so I know how you feel. Just these days, it's a pet peeve of mine to clear up the myth regarding BL canonicity, as I really, really dislike some of the things that have creeped into certain novels or other licensed products, and I do not think that they should overrule what was established for decades in GW books, just because a single writer likes it better that way (or simply didn't do his research *cough*Goto*cough*). No hard feelings, I hope, on both our parts.

I agree with a lot you're saying actually, I just feel like even if not regarded as "official" fluff, most BL work is of sufficient quality to at least be credible reference points. But no, no hard feelings

Lynata wrote:...Sisters of Battle drinking alcohol, playing cards and sleeping around due to boredom...

As a matter of fact I just finished Cain's Last Stand this morning, those are some great books!

Also judging by your unfamiliarity with the Covenant of Blood, I'd assume you haven't read Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver. Pick em up when you get the chance, they're fantastic books.

Your placement of Orks on the scale depends on what definition of "technology" you subscribe to: flashy sparkly stuff that goes boom or concious invention/innovation.

Essentially, Orks have no or very little technology at all, anymore than a child pressing a button on a food dispenser would know about making it. A very large portion of what they use, which make no mistakes is extremely potent, they have no concious knowledge of how it works. Some portion of their "technology" may even work simply because they think it works. As such, I'd place Orks more or less on the same technology step as Tyranids. Neatly to the side of the playing field right among the other spectators.

forruner_mercy wrote:The Eldar only has one plasma weapon, as far as I know and that is the starcannon. But again, no know fluff behind it.

Eldar Plasma is highly efficient with low amount of energy needs, vastly improved energy storage, and portable energy generators. In the standard codex Star Cannons, Plasma Grenades and Missile Launchers are plasma weapons, with a very strong hint that everything explosive the Eldars use is plasma based. I'm not entirely certain what the Eldar flamers are based on, nor what the Destructor psychic power brings forth is. It's largely a matter of "all those benefits that would really matter to you in real life actually make the stuff have worse stats in game".

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:In terms of technology this is how it works:

Necrons have the most advanced technology in the galaxy. But their tech is not compatible with warp and they themselves do not have a freedom to invent new things or upgrade.

Eldar have 2'nd advanced technology in the galaxy, but they received all that from the Old Ones, and they like the IoM can't build some things ( liek the Webway gate ).

Tau have rail and plasma technology, but don't have warp or teleportation technology at all. And their warp drive is quite primitive.

Imperium of Man just have technology from the Dark age of Technology, but even this that they have is more advanced then Tau and Eldar tech. But, they have a ton of things for what they lack STC and when those things broke down, they are broke down for good - or at least until they found STC for that.

Orks are just using Imperium technology.

Tyranids are all organic.

Dark Eldar are using Eldar tech, but with little more warp and dark matter touch to it.

In terms of technology, except Necrons none has the advantage. In addition to all of this, only Imperium and Tau are upgrading their tech and inventing new things.

If the IoM and the Tau built a toaster...

The Tau toaster would toast your toast almost instantly and at a perfect degree to what you wanted.

The Imperium toaster would be the size of a car and need for you to pray at it to work. At this point, it would either explode, incinerate your house, or make you a delicious piece of toast. All the while you wouldn't understand the need for a giant 3 foot mechanical arm on it.


Basically, Tau technology is practical and makes sense, Imperial tech apart from a few trusty designs like Lastech and Power armor is largely impractical. While people laugh at the Tau inability to travel in the warp, it is also a wiser choice to forgo warp travel until you perfect a Necron-ish style of FTL.

Ah, that Imperium toaster literally made me laugh out load. Exploding seems more like a Orkish thing though. And I do not laugh at the Tau for that. I would prefer that actually then normal Warp travel. I am sure that the Lamenters and the Fire Hawks* chapters would have loved to have been traveling via something other than Warp.

*Legion of the Damned

And I'm sorry, but it kind of bothers me when people talk about novels as if they are not legitimate sources of fluff.

The BL books are great sources of fluff.

Unfortunately, that's the only thing they're a source for, since every BL book is written under the auspices of a rather great degree of "artistic license" that allows the author to write what makes a great story, not necessarily what fits within the "canon" established by the table-top game rules.

If they wouldn't rewrite every piece of fluff that shows the IOM in a bad light as a great SM victory i'd be more inclined to treat them as official fluff.

Most of the time i consider them to be stories of an alternate 40k universe, because they feth up the pre-existing fluff so badly..

Ascalam wrote:If they wouldn't rewrite every piece of fluff that shows the IOM in a bad light as a great SM victory i'd be more inclined to treat them as official fluff.

Most of the time i consider them to be stories of an alternate 40k universe, because they feth up the pre-existing fluff so badly..

Remember, 40k fluff exists for one reason, to counteract itself

This is indeed true, but it can counteract itself fine without 3+ armour plating in every story as the winners

The Guard books are mostly readable. The rest are only enjoyable if you are a SM fanboy, of the ones i've chewed through. I've not read them all yet, but that does seem to be the theme...

Ascalam wrote:This is indeed true, but it can counteract itself fine without 3+ armour plating in every story as the winners

The Guard books are mostly readable. The rest are only enjoyable if you are a SM fanboy, of the ones i've chewed through. I've not read them all yet, but that does seem to be the theme...

I dunno, I liked the Space Wolf Omnibus, and Graham McNeills stuff isnt too terrible, the former is just good fun and the latter actually shows Ultramarines as mortals not gods(By the end of the second book the majority of 4th company is dead)

You don't have to be a Space Marine fanboy to appreciate them. I hate Space Marines, but I love the Horus Heresy books, quite enjoyed the Space Wolf books, hell I even thought the Ultramarines trilogy was pretty good! Plus there are plenty of better BL books without SMs, read Gaunt's Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Path of the Warrior, Titanicus, etc.

MandalorynOranj wrote:I agree with a lot you're saying actually, I just feel like even if not regarded as "official" fluff, most BL work is of sufficient quality to at least be credible reference points.

Ah, don't get me wrong, I have adopted quite a few ideas from them I deemed "fitting", and I do like a lot of them simply for how they manage to describe the setting, drawing the reader right into this dystopian future of eternal war. I just have to dismiss certain ideas from some novels that sound really out of place, and likewise I cannot insist that those I have adopted are "true", simply because they may not fit into someone elses perception. So in the end, the only "hard" canon remain the rulebooks and codices, as George Mann said.

That's not to dismiss the value of BL or FFG books. Buy them for the stories they tell, buy them for inspiration ... just don't expect them to provide a reliable source clearing up all those mysteria purposefully left vague by GW.

In the end, I just don't want some mercenary author messing up my beloved SoB.
Heard too many horrible things. Not enough that GW has a habit of writing Sisters Snuff, now it's BL completely ruining what little reputation the 2E and 3E Codices gave them. On the other hand, "Hammer & Anvil" is slated for release at the end of year, so I shouldn't rant against novels too much just because they share in GW's neglect of my favorite faction.

Lynata wrote:Also judging by your unfamiliarity with the Covenant of Blood, I'd assume you haven't read Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver. Pick em up when you get the chance, they're fantastic books.

Hmmm, my days as a SM fan are long gone, but these seem to be Chaos novels, yes? Might be interesting - I did enjoy "Snares & Delusions" in the Dark Imperium anthology. Though I will likely try Gaunt's Ghosts and the Calpurnia Omnibus first - heard lots of good stuff about them.

But first to finish A Song of Ice and Fire ...

They're about the Night Lords, but definitely read Gaunt's Ghosts, those are some of my favorite books, Only in Death ranks right up there with Ender's Game for me as my favorite book.

Questions for the question throne! Here is a new one. Reverse engineering. Can the tau reverse engineer imperial tech (Geen seeds, bolters, armor composites) and do they want to? Same deal for the IoM can they reverse engineer tau tech with out being burned at the stake? Well we are at it, how about the other sides?

They probably could, but why would they

They can already make power armour. They just have size compensation issues...

Ascalam wrote:They probably could, but why would they

They can already make power armour. They just have size compensation issues...

Well I bet they would just love to make the fire warriors into SM, and they do have some titan armor they could use on their ships.

nomotog wrote:Questions for the question throne! Here is a new one. Reverse engineering. Can the tau reverse engineer imperial tech (Geen seeds, bolters, armor composites) and do they want to? Same deal for the IoM can they reverse engineer tau tech with out being burned at the stake? Well we are at it, how about the other sides?

HERESY

nomotog wrote:Questions for the question throne! Here is a new one. Reverse engineering. Can the tau reverse engineer imperial tech (Geen seeds, bolters, armor composites) and do they want to? Same deal for the IoM can they reverse engineer tau tech with out being burned at the stake? Well we are at it, how about the other sides?

TAU.

- can't reverse engeneer bio-tech, thus geneseed or any other form of altering living creatures. Their split into sub-species is not their own doing. You'll have to wait if Gw ever reveals the creator of the etherals.
- are not interested in imperial tech, as they deem their culture and approach to tech superior.
- can't reverse engeneer anything with a machine spirit since they are unbelievers in the omnissiah
- will be annihilated for tech heresy if the mechanicum is able to overcome ordo xenos


IoM.

- the mechanicum is its own entity, so free to reverse engeneer whatever they please.
- anything considered lacking the blessing of the omnissiah will be undone, but could be reverse engeneered first to prove its level of tech-heresy.
- the mechanicum has used non-human tech and maybe knows far more than they would confirm, but still has no interested to lessen its grasp on imperial tech, thus won't tell about any source outside their own forgeworlds for tech.
- everything found by the IoM is handed to the mechanicum for analysis, be it tech or the biology of xenos. So the data is there.
- the imperium itself is based on exclusive deals, like trading licences for example, and competiton is unwelcome. To reverse engeneer tech without the blessing of the mechanicum would give any competitior an easy shot at you. Just call


Eldar.
- deem other tech as inferior
- use psi in their tech and won't be interested in "dull" and non-aestethic tech. So Tau are out because there is no psi and IoM is out in style...
- craftworlders wont dedicate a life to the path of reverse engeneering..
- commoraghers plunder and incorporate what they find, so maybe reverse engeneer and adapt to their own design


Orks.
- loot everything.
- don't engeneer at all, just recall what is inbreed.


Tyranids.
- reverse engeneer any biology and thus are the N°1 in bio re-engeneering
- adapt to threats, but don't favor technical solutions.


Demons.
- don't reverse engeneer. When your ideas become true, why should you need to disassemble and rebuild stuff from the material realm?


Did I forget anyone?

Necrons

We don't need your steeenking science. Ours is better

1hadhq wrote:
-Tau can't reverse engeneer anything with a machine spirit since they are unbelievers in the omnissiah

And that's why out tech is better

Mahtamori wrote:
Essentially, IoM have no or very little technology at all, anymore than a child pressing a button on a food dispenser would know about making it. A very large portion of what they use, which make no mistakes is extremely potent, they have no concious knowledge of how it works. Some portion of their "technology" may even work simply because they think it works. As such, I'd place IoM more or less on the same technology step as Tyranids. Neatly to the side of the playing field right among the other spectators.

Fixed.

Brother Coa wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
-Tau can't reverse engeneer anything with a machine spirit since they are unbelievers in the omnissiah

And that's why out tech is better

So Tau can't reverse engineer imperial tech because they don't dance around their toasters and pretend that they live?
Seriously, some people take the machine spirit dogma far too seriously. With the exception of the actual artificial inteligences ( even if they are part biological )
found within Landraiders, Titans and some other advanced imperial stuff there are no machine spirits which have to be placated. At least no more
than there is one within our computers, even if we all sometimes talk with them.

Tau can and have reverse engineered imperial technology. Actualy seeing it as science rather than magic means they are a lot better at handling it than the imperials are. As KingDeath said there is no magic in imperial technology - it isn't alive, the Admech just don't understand what it is.

KingDeath wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
-Tau can't reverse engeneer anything with a machine spirit since they are unbelievers in the omnissiah

And that's why our tech is better

So Tau can't reverse engineer imperial tech because they don't dance around their toasters and pretend that they live?

Sadly, they don't even know what a toaster is.

KingDeath wrote:
Seriously, some people take the machine spirit dogma far too seriously. With the exception of the actual artificial inteligences ( even if they are part biological ) found within Landraiders, Titans and some other advanced imperial stuff there are no machine spirits which have to be placated.

Seems the level of "seriousness" of that line in my post is a hidden secret....

KingDeath wrote:At least no more than there is one within our computers, even if we all sometimes talk with them.

HA. You have to admit you placate the "machine spirit", yet in "our" age of technology
....but in a dark age of sci-fantasy its unbelievable for you?

We don't have to talk to them yet, but it may become the next step of interaction with them.
In the 40k-verse, AI's existed once and had to be put in their place again. So popular belief follows that dogma.
But common knowledge of the imperial citizen and the knowledge of the tech-magi isn't the same.

4M2A wrote:Tau can and have reverse engineered imperial technology. Actualy seeing it as science rather than magic means they are a lot better at handling it than the imperials are. As KingDeath said there is no magic in imperial technology - it isn't alive, the Admech just don't understand what it is.

oh really? Examples?
Its only magic for the populace. The one who care for alien tech are used to follow logic and analysis, not magic.
The ones favoring "magic" are the dark mech, merging demons and technology.

KingDeath wrote:
So Tau can't reverse engineer imperial tech because they don't dance around their toasters and pretend that they live?
Seriously, some people take the machine spirit dogma far too seriously. With the exception of the actual artificial inteligences ( even if they are part biological )
found within Landraiders, Titans and some other advanced imperial stuff there are no machine spirits which have to be placated. At least no more
than there is one within our computers, even if we all sometimes talk with them.

No, it's because you Tau fans are taking our "praying to the toaster" a little to far.
Machine spirit is not some type of simple AI, it's AI that is the closest thing to the true Human mind.
In fact, the Machine spirit can get angry and refuse to cooperate with Humans ( and that's why the Techpriest are praying to him. They are actually asking him to cool down and work with them ) witch only indicates that they have emotions ( kind off ) and that they are more advanced then simple Tau "input command" and choose the most logical course of action.

The prof for my theory can be found in graphic novel "Titan", where young cadet is being accused for misusing the Titan ( after saving their ass of course ) and send to execution. But before they remove him from court the Titan appear on one of the monitors ( him machine spirit ) and told them "if you kill him I will not fight anymore". I also read numerous quotes from Titan machine spirit where he gloat about his service to the Emperor ( witch indicates some sort of obligation, even if he is just a machine ).

ANd further more, machine spirits can be found on Imperial Warships, colonies, drop-pods, Baneblades etc...

Brother Coa wrote:Machine spirit is not some type of simple AI, it's AI that is the closest thing to the true Human mind. In fact, the Machine spirit can get angry and refuse to cooperate with Humans ( and that's why the Techpriest are praying to him. They are actually asking him to cool down and work with them ) witch only indicates that they have emotions ( kind off ) and that they are more advanced then simple Tau "input command" and choose the most logical course of action.

Actually, I'm fairly sure all the praying and chanting and asking is simply based on the very same superstition that causes perfectly normal people to yell at their monitor when the computer breaks down even today - only dialed up to eleven because it's 40k.

Brother Coa wrote:The prof for my theory can be found in graphic novel "Titan", [...]

Keep in mind novels aren't really hard canon, though.

That said, I would not dismiss the idea that an extremely developed machine spirit (meaning one of those braines slaved to the machinery), given enough time, may develop a certain degree of sentience, as opposed to the originally intended function of simply working semi-autonomously by following a set of guidelines a la Robocop. But I would say that this is quite rare and limited to stuff like Titans (who may have less "blockers" against the machine spirit taking control in case of an emergency) etc. But "simple" power armour that doesn't even include this biomechanical component? Nope, no such hindrance preventing the Tau from taking it apart if they would just want to.

And if the Tau would ever get their hands on a Land Raider or a Titan ... well, just remove the brain? Or try drugging it - I could see that work, too.

Craftworld Eldar have all sorts of paths, and if they found any value to stilling the inner desires of the soul in reverse-engineering other races technology, they would found that path. Sadly, the CWE culture, rather than their inventiveness, is stuck in a stagnation due to the stigma of the Fall. The paths serve several purposes, but the society as a whole tend to travel the path already travelled in fear of attracting unwarranted attention of She who Hungers. It would take very little for GW to retcon the Eldar stagnation, both in terms of population and sociological/technological standstill, since at the moment the Eldar stick to the aesthetics of old in a similar way to how the Japanese loathed change and foreign influence during the middle ages. In fact, the common reason for Eldar to choose the path of the outcast is that they wish to experience and create anew.
One would think that maybe the introduction of a new craftworld to spread new influence would be sufficient. Possibly there is one which is fighting it's way free of the Eye to bring such change... Well, one could hope at least.

TrollPie wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Essentially, IoM have no or very little technology at all, anymore than a child pressing a button on a food dispenser would know about making it. A very large portion of what they use, which make no mistakes is extremely potent, they have no concious knowledge of how it works. Some portion of their "technology" may even work simply because they think it works. As such, I'd place IoM more or less on the same technology step as Tyranids. Neatly to the side of the playing field right among the other spectators.

Fixed.

*shrug* Works for me.

Lynata wrote:

And if the Tau would ever get their hands on a Land Raider or a Titan ... well, just remove the brain? Or try drugging it - I could see that work, too.

Self destruct is your freind....
But normally their hands don't matter when their bodies lie scattered on the ground after extensive chainsword treatment.

more importantly, people put too much faith in reverse engeneering.

Scenario.

- 1 computer, maybe something easy to use ( A500 )
- alien lifeform, finding it and able to create complicated devices.

So you got a thing, a heap of plastic and electronics.
-Do you know the components?
-Are you able to read the signs on it?
-Have the correct power supply handy?

Maybe the external power supply is missing?
Maybe no software was found with it ( no harddrive in such old machine. )?

All you can do is to recreate the components and hope to not blow it up when attaching the power supply.
Then, and only then youre able to identify a function, when it asks: "please insert disk"
But what is this "disk"?
There is a slot, and a mechanic to insert something. But does it mean you know what it expects?
At best youre able to measure the size of the object to be inserted.
Still no clue what it is, and no chance to "magically" guess right and create a floppy disk.

But if you can ( because your magical all knowing scanner tells you, which I consider cheating in this scenario ), how do you know what
software is and which "language" the machine understands?


People got stuck by "press any key" before and in a fictional universe alien concepts are understood?
We can't decipher everything and still ancient texts/glyphs/ etc are unreadable to us even when they were created by humans on the same planet. Without hints or help from someone of that userbase its unlikely to be able to re-engeneer anything.

I actually agree on both points - first, it would be extremely difficult to actually retrievel/salvage one such beast, and second, reverse-engineering isn't easy.

Just saying it's hypothetically possible. For the language bits, I'm sure the Tau have figured out human Gothic by now, with all those traitors joining their Greater Good. The rest is up to comparing Imperial tech with what the Tau already know, possibly proxying their own machinery. Example: electricity is electricity, regardless of how you create it. If you can't figure out how an IoM Generatorium works, just reroute power to one of your own units and go from there.

Additionally, I'm sure you can figure out the basic principle just by having the eggheads taking a look at things. Once you know which materials are used in what way, smart people will eventually end up with an idea. In case of the computer, for example: Your scientists may not be able to decipher its programming, but they will be able to replicate the construction and they will get to know how the program came to be, and then end up writing their own stuff. Plus, every persisting code can be broken by studying it in action, see WW2.

That said, what would the Tau even want with Titan-Tech? I'm not sure that the power plant would be of interest to them, or the machine spirit. The weapons, on the other hand? Or the servos moving those giant arms and legs?

Lynata wrote:I actually agree on both points - first, it would be extremely difficult to actually retrievel/salvage one such beast, and second, reverse-engineering isn't easy.

Just saying it's hypothetically possible. For the language bits, I'm sure the Tau have figured out human Gothic by now, with all those traitors joining their Greater Good. The rest is up to comparing Imperial tech with what the Tau already know, possibly proxying their own machinery. Example: electricity is electricity, regardless of how you create it. If you can't figure out how an IoM Generatorium works, just reroute power to one of your own units and go from there.

Additionally, I'm sure you can figure out the basic principle just by having the eggheads taking a look at things. Once you know which materials are used in what way, smart people will eventually end up with an idea. In case of the computer, for example: Your scientists may not be able to decipher its programming, but they will be able to replicate the construction and they will get to know how the program came to be, and then end up writing their own stuff. Plus, every persisting code can be broken by studying it in action, see WW2.

That said, what would the Tau even want with Titan-Tech? I'm not sure that the power plant would be of interest to them, or the machine spirit. The weapons, on the other hand? Or the servos moving those giant arms and legs?

I agree, Tau could adapt to some forms. But it would take them quite some time to succeed. And + they never faced Baneblade or Titan larger than Warhound ( Warhounds have simpler machine spirit unlike larger Titans ).

And WW2 was Human vs. Human conflict. Try cracking alien codes if you can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:Keep in mind novels aren't really hard canon, though.

Warhammer Monthly comics are canon since they were published by GW themselves.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
So Tau can't reverse engineer imperial tech because they don't dance around their toasters and pretend that they live?
Seriously, some people take the machine spirit dogma far too seriously. With the exception of the actual artificial inteligences ( even if they are part biological )
found within Landraiders, Titans and some other advanced imperial stuff there are no machine spirits which have to be placated. At least no more
than there is one within our computers, even if we all sometimes talk with them.

No, it's because you Tau fans are taking our "praying to the toaster" a little to far.
Machine spirit is not some type of simple AI, it's AI that is the closest thing to the true Human mind.
In fact, the Machine spirit can get angry and refuse to cooperate with Humans ( and that's why the Techpriest are praying to him. They are actually asking him to cool down and work with them ) witch only indicates that they have emotions ( kind off ) and that they are more advanced then simple Tau "input command" and choose the most logical course of action.

The prof for my theory can be found in graphic novel "Titan", where young cadet is being accused for misusing the Titan ( after saving their ass of course ) and send to execution. But before they remove him from court the Titan appear on one of the monitors ( him machine spirit ) and told them "if you kill him I will not fight anymore". I also read numerous quotes from Titan machine spirit where he gloat about his service to the Emperor ( witch indicates some sort of obligation, even if he is just a machine ).

ANd further more, machine spirits can be found on Imperial Warships, colonies, drop-pods, Baneblades etc...

You might wish to reread both the graphic novel and my post again. It is not the mystical "machine spirit" which resides in every piece of imperial tech which calls for Hecate's release but whatever is left of the former princeps within the titan's complex ai. That some part of a princep's conscioussness sometimes stays within the titan's a, which is interpreted as machinespirit, is not doubted. That every piece of imperial tech has a similar ai is plainly superstition.

Titans and Landraiders and some other, rare vehicles ( Ordinatus engines perhaps ) are actualy the only confirmed pieces of imperial tech which have a "machine spirit" as defined as a somewhat sentient, bio-mechanical ai. A titan's machine spirit is also usualy not described as humanlike but animallike, raw emotion and instict which has to be tempered and even dominated by the princeps
This changes nothing about the fact that the techpriest largely worship something that does not exist. A Leman Russ has no ai or machinespirit, nor has a lasgun, a fire extinguisher or a piece of flakarmour.
What a droppod, a tank and various other vehicles might have is simply software. The only droppods with a true ai are Dreadclaws, which are now mostly in the posession of the traitor legions.

So to make it short, imperial ai's ( after a fashion ) exist in some rare pieces of technology and might be interprested as machine spirits by the ignorant techpriests ( the higher magi might actually know what they are dealing with ). The mystical spirit which is claimed to exist in all pieces of technology is nothing but superstition, born out of millenia of ignorance and blind devotion.

Brother Coa wrote:Warhammer Monthly comics are canon since they were published by GW themselves.

Not so sure about that ... Daemonifuge was published by GW / Warhammer Monthly as well, and still its contents were flat-out ignored in true Codex material.

prior to Daemonifuge: only a single Sister has ever fallen to Chaos
Daemonifuge (1999): hundreds of Sisters fall to Chaos
3E Codex (2003): going back to "only a single Sister has ever fallen to Chaos"

Lynata wrote:Not so sure about that ... Daemonifuge was published by GW / Warhammer Monthly as well, and still its contents were flat-out ignored in true Codex material.

prior to Daemonifuge: only a single Sister has ever fallen to Chaos
Daemonifuge (1999): hundreds of Sisters fall to Chaos
3E Codex (2003): going back to "only a single Sister has ever fallen to Chaos"

That's because GW don't like Sisters.
They let them be butchered every time, and Matt Ward killed 90% of them in 5'th edition codex.
I don't see that stuff as canon....

And we also have the "Damnation Crusade" witch is also a canon and we have scene where XV88 can't kill Dreadnought from 4 shots... And then we have Draigo who is also cannon but guy is so fanfic that he is gloating in it...

Hard to decide what is cannon and what not....

Brother Coa wrote:That's because GW don't like Sisters.

I'd be inclined to agree, but in this case, sticking to the "only one Sister ever got corrupted" is actually better for them.

Brother Coa wrote:Hard to decide what is cannon and what not....

Well, we have statements from authors and GW officials. I recently linked a few here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/379701.page#3011804

Going by what George Mann said, Damnation Crusade would stand firmly in the non-canon zone.

KD is right again. There are many differnt phenomenon which can cause a "Machine Spirit". The machine spirit in a titan isn't the same as a machine spirit in a LR/LRBT/any of the imperiums other complex tech.

Most of the time there is no machine spirit, it's just superstition. Instead of a instruction guide the admech use rituals. They would see a bolter that is jamming and decide the machine spirit has been offended. A possible way to resolve this is to offer it annointed oil. In reality the bolter just needed lubrication however this knowledge has been lost- all they know is that if you follow the ritual it works. They are too restricted by their religion to try and work out what is actually happening.

In more complex technology such as tanks and large computers there is a very simple AI. This can be partialy biological (using human brains) or can be purely mechanical. The admech see AI as evil and so something helping them must be different. In combat vehicles it can appear to have the features of a living organism. It will attempt to keep itsefl functioning, remove threats to itself and crew and if it has the capacity to learn will adapt to crew. The machine spirit will appear to bet on better with crew if they function in a similar way to the AI.

Titans may begin with the same AI as other complex machines but this is changed by use. The longer a princep uses a titan the more his mind is fused to it. Eventually the princeps mind becomes part of the titan. Even without the human the titan will still have his mind. As more princeps use it the titan's mind becomes a mix of all it's users- similar to eldar pheonix lords. It's this personally which can become attached to new princeps. Unlike the rest of imperial technology Titans do actually have a spirit.

i see some serious ad mech misunderstanding here. the machine spirit is not what is being placated most of the time but simply reverence of the holy item, this is alongside a complete understanding of the "rites" involved with the production of said items with the exception of artefacts like titans which are far too advanced in comparison with what is still grasped to be replicated but which the magi have resourcefully discerned the funtion of components to repair and even replicate and replace most of them. i dont understand how this could be misunderstood unless you take it upon yourself to skip the small ammount of fluff that exists within the rulebook and codexes. and for those of you who preach knowledge to be heresy it is obvious that you cannot fathom the greatness of the omnissiah in his ability to allow the storage of all knowledge, for knowledge in and of itself deserves worship which you misunderstand as repairs being inacted. this facade is somewhat maintained due to the relative stupidity of the imperials. This is not by willful deciet (mostly... kinda..) but by lack of observation on the part of the average imperial citizen. It is not surprising at all that those who discredit so easily the value of knowledge that one has over another would fail to understand how the repair of an item of the omnissiah's design would not be a time for divine rejoicement. the idea that all knowledge with the blessing of the omnissiah is not worthy of obtaining is blasphemy. (and if ever you question if knowledge is meant for you by the omnissiah all you need do is pursue it until you are the omnissiah sends you a sign, death or near death should be taken as a sign from the omnissiah that you are not worthy of the knowledge in question for some undiscernable reason unless of course you have the support of the emperor in the form of millitary presence of one form or another to be used to your ends, in which case the emperor has blessed you with a chance to pursue the ultimate righteousness.) This concept by itself would be enough to plunge the entire IoM into an savagery and segregation were it not for the admech techpriests spread throughout the whole of the IoM from the low reaches of hive worlds to battleships of monolithic proportions enacting the proper repairs and rituals required to keep mankind technologicaly competent. i am not sure where/when the idea that kitchen devices were viewed as worthy of recieving a machine spirit by the omnissiah but this is not in the teaching and sounds like the ferverent chirping of heresy ladden lies.

I would suspect that if orks could take it into their limited minds to enact repairs regularly and with reverence they would be less often claimed as points for the opposing side in violent explosions.

^this^

Well done first post. Maybe break it up a bit more in formatting?

It isn't always shown in the background, but certainly the mechanicum is not a bunch of shamans.
You know, the Emperor choose a C'tan as instructor for a reason. He wanted the best to inspire his tech-staff.

@1hadhq: yup, the void dragon himself, imprisoned on mars, and defeated the same way that George was supposed to have slain the dragon (sort of).

Why does everyone INSIST on calling him the Void Dragon?

He is the Dragon (no void, no chucky, no sprinkles )

There is an eldar pirate fleet called the Void Dragons. I doubt they worship him


And yes, he's holed up in the Noctis Labarinthus on Mars, at least for now ...

Asked the same question once and was pointed to the single source calling him "void" dragon.
I think we can ignore the "void" part.

Why should the Dragon want to leave?

Boredom?

I would love Mars to suddenly teleport out, taking the whole Priesthood of Mars with it, and leaving the IOM in dire straits..

If they can teleport/warpshield planets than surely the Ctan (being better at that stuff, supposedly) can do the same..

There are a lot of hints that the Dragon has a lot more control over the Mechanicus than the IOM would have you believe in the fluff, but i'm betting that they'll not be followed up/be retconned out. Call me cynical, but it's not exactly new..

1hadhq wrote:
Why should the Dragon want to leave?

A gilded cage is still a prison.

Well i think its the fact that hes asleep...
And they don't teleport per say. They move at much faster than light travel. they can teleport as well, but not whole planets.

If the Grey Knights can move planets around using imperial tech i'm sure the masters of Teleportation and Time/Space manipulation would be able to find a way

I

Ascalam wrote:If the Grey Knights can move planets around using imperial tech i'm sure the masters of Teleportation and Time/Space manipulation would be able to find a way

I

GK can move planets?

Titan. (It's a moon of Saturn, not a planet, but same principle )

Malcador the Sigilite takes it out of it's orbit for the period of the Horus Heresy and plunks it into the warp, where somehow it stays safe and sound....

They also relocate Diemos from Martian orbit to orbiting Titan using Adeptus Mechanicus Hand-Wave technology, to use as a forgeworld. Since Diemos is only 9.9 miles long and less than that deep one does wonder exactly how it can have vast subterranean halls and massive manufactorums as described

It's also worth noting that Titan has nearly no gravity, and for Diemos to be orbiting it would require continual intervention from another Handwave Generator

Hmm. Well the tau can manipulate gravity, so maybe the IoM can too. ( They must have found a stash of element zero on mars )

Uh, what? Where's any knowledge of the Tau being able to manipulate gravity?

An "anti-gravity" field isn't the same as actively being able to manipulate gravity into being used as a weapon like the Imperium's Graviton weaponry.

Anti gravity is manipulating gravity. BFG says that their ships use a gravity drive. It Positions a gravity sheath just in front of them and they just kind of fall forward. Gravity hooks. Gravity launchers. Then their shields are gravity based too. Gravity manipulating seems to be one of their core techs.