Given that Tau are slightly shorter than humans, could a normal Imperial Guardsmen pilot a salvaged one if for instance that was all the heavy firepower he had on hand?

Also the issue of space-suits: How do the humans and Eldar survive if they needed to work in the vacuum? Does the Space Marine suit have all the air supply they need that comes with their NBC gear?

No, Tau suits destroy non-pilots that try to get in. It would require reverse-engineering, and humans don't do that.

And where is that from? I've never heard of a Tau suit destroying any other species that tries to pilot one.

1. There's a brief bit in one of Gav Thorpes Last Chancers novels involving a guardsman who gets in one. It ends badly for him. The brief bit implies that there are interfaces ("rods") that physically insert themselves into the pilot, so presumably Crisis Suit pilots are partly cybernetic, though that's conjecture on my part.

2. They have Spacesuits in 40K, most Navy pilots have them. Think the Viper Pilots from BSG. Similarly, if needs be they can put these on and conduct repairs or whatever.

Fair enough, I knew there was some form of interface with the suit, the poster simply said it like there's a recognition system that destroys other life-forms if they aren't Tau.

On the second point, Marines have vacuum enabled suits with air recycling systems. They can even survive without a sealed suit for short periods of time. Normal humans have vacuum suits, I know that Warriors of Ultramar has the pilots of the Lightnings wearing special g-force and vacuum suits.

iproxtaco wrote:Fair enough, I knew there was some form of interface with the suit, the poster simply said it like there's a recognition system that destroys other life-forms if they aren't Tau.

Sorry for being vague, but I did not remember exactly what happened to the fool that tried to get in one. I just remembered that, as said, it ended poorly.

EDIT: and I said non-pilots, not non-tau. Not all tau ports/implants/whatever.

Agiel wrote:Given that Tau are slightly shorter than humans, could a normal Imperial Guardsmen pilot a salvaged one if for instance that was all the heavy firepower he had on hand?

Also the issue of space-suits: How do the humans and Eldar survive if they needed to work in the vacuum? Does the Space Marine suit have all the air supply they need that comes with their NBC gear?

Actually, Tau are slightly taller than the average human, they are shorter than marines however.

Wrong. Tau are slightly shorter than the average human, and are also weaker. The air caste however, described as tall and slender, may well be taller on average, but the other four castes are on average shorter, and in the case of the Earth Caste, stockier.

The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

The admech a bunch of spazo re-re's. Its heresy to reverse enginner your own tech adn heresy to reverse engineer tau tech...... Yeah the non warp FTL is heresy. What idiots. When the void dragon wakes up and they realize they have been worshiping a c'tan they will be like OH gak WE ARE DUMB. Then they will reverse engineer Standard template constructors, Tau FTL, Railguns, Markerlights, Plasma Tech, Vanqiushers, Land Raiders, Terminator Armour, Space Marine Jetbikes, Their best ships, blackstone fortresses and the millions of other stuff they have forgotten and the imperium will WIN THE GALAXY!

And that is why the void dragon waking up will spur the return of the great crusade.

Reverse engineer Tau FTL? Why would they want an inferior version of the FTL they already have?

ChocolateGork wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

Then they will reverse engineer Standard template constructors, Tau FTL, Railguns, Markerlights, Plasma Tech, Vanquishers, Land Raiders, Terminator Armour, Space Marine Jetbikes, Their best ships, blackstone fortresses and the millions of other stuff they have forgotten and the imperium will WIN THE GALAXY!

1) Plasma tech isn't lost. Plasma guns, weaponry, and things of that nature are constantly being constructed. The only problem contributing to the rarity of it is that only a small number of worlds have the ability to produce it.
2) Railguns and markerlights have already been produced by the Imperium. Railguns were used by the Imperium during the Great Crusade and Heresy to sling something called "Kinetic Kill-Rods" during orbital bombardments. Markerlights are used to this day, but without the ridiculously common AI controlled missiles they essentially have become laser rangefinders.
3) Land Raiders and Terminator Armour are still produced. They're not produced in great numbers, but they're definitely produced.
4) Why would you want a ton of Vanquishers? They're very specialized vehicles, excelling at killing other tanks. The beauty of the Leman Russ is that its battle cannon allows for the crew to select the 'best shell' for the job, being a highly versatile weapon that can deal with tanks, enemy infantry, monstrous creatures, etc. Jetbikes kind of go into the same vein, where they're exceedingly specialized tools that have advantages in one area(anti-gravity allowing them to cover more distance and mount more weaponry) but have many more disadvantages(high maintenance, requires specific environmental factors to operate, etc).
5) The Blackstone Fortresses were never built by the Imperium. There's a reason they were called "Talismans of Vaul". Because the Eldar built them.

Kanluwen wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

Then they will reverse engineer Standard template constructors, Tau FTL, Railguns, Markerlights, Plasma Tech, Vanquishers, Land Raiders, Terminator Armour, Space Marine Jetbikes, Their best ships, blackstone fortresses and the millions of other stuff they have forgotten and the imperium will WIN THE GALAXY!

1) Plasma tech isn't lost. Plasma guns, weaponry, and things of that nature are constantly being constructed. The only problem contributing to the rarity of it is that only a small number of worlds have the ability to produce it.
2) Railguns and markerlights have already been produced by the Imperium. Railguns were used by the Imperium during the Great Crusade and Heresy to sling something called "Kinetic Kill-Rods" during orbital bombardments. Markerlights are used to this day, but without the ridiculously common AI controlled missiles they essentially have become laser rangefinders.
3) Land Raiders and Terminator Armour are still produced. They're not produced in great numbers, but they're definitely produced.
4) Why would you want a ton of Vanquishers? They're very specialized vehicles, excelling at killing other tanks. The beauty of the Leman Russ is that its battle cannon allows for the crew to select the 'best shell' for the job, being a highly versatile weapon that can deal with tanks, enemy infantry, monstrous creatures, etc. Jetbikes kind of go into the same vein, where they're exceedingly specialized tools that have advantages in one area(anti-gravity allowing them to cover more distance and mount more weaponry) but have many more disadvantages(high maintenance, requires specific environmental factors to operate, etc).
5) The Blackstone Fortresses were never built by the Imperium. There's a reason they were called "Talismans of Vaul". Because the Eldar built them.

Then make more of plasma and teminator armour, Imagine an entire chapter of plasma wielding terminators

Just because vanquishers are very specialized doesnt mean they aren't incredibly useful and the thinning of numbers is bad. And imagine an armored company made of Punishers, Executioners and vanquishers They could Take care of nearly any opponent with the vanquishers focusing on Armour, the punisher focusing on light infantry and the executioner taking on heavy infantry.

how many environment would be better for a bike to operate in instead of a jetbike??

They haven't made railguns in smaller versions and they obviously are superior to lascannons when compacted, And the imperium doesn't use networks of extremely sophisticated lasers and targeting systems that makes their shooting near perfect.

Imagine the imperial guard in modified fire-warrior Armour. Or for that matter imagine the imperium's industry applied to the mass production of battle-suits for use in the imperial guard? The space marines would become pretty inferior to a regiment of TAU weaponry wielding, Imperial battle-suits. That with the help of STC's they could make billions of.

And just becuase the eldar made them doesn't meant he imperium cant take them apart and make Blackstone super weapons and mount them on ships.

iproxtaco wrote:Reverse engineer Tau FTL? Why would they want an inferior version of the FTL they already have?

Becuase the tau don't go through the warp and face being lost in time, killed in a warp storm, corrupted, eaten by a horror of the warp or driven insane whenever they jump. AND they wouldnt have to rely on astropaths to be able to go where they want.

Here's a flip side to the apparent safety. It's a hell of a lot slower, and unimaginably shorter in range.

ChocolateGork wrote:
Then make more of plasma and teminator armour, Imagine an entire chapter of plasma wielding terminators

Again: overspecialization is bad. Plasma, while devastating, also has downsides like blowing up in your face.
Terminator armor is great for boarding actions and pinpoint assaults or cityfights. It's basically a joke in open countryside.

Just because Vanquishers are very specialized doesn't mean they aren't incredibly useful and the thinning of numbers is bad. And imagine an armored company made of Punishers, Executioners and Vanquishers. They could take care of nearly any opponent with the Vanquishers focusing on armour, the Punisher focusing on light infantry and the Executioner taking on heavy infantry.

how many environment would be better for a bike to operate in instead of a jetbike??

Quite a few actually. An environment where the air is shrouded in toxic haze or infested with flying creatures, for examples off the very top of my head.

They haven't made railguns in smaller versions and they obviously are superior to lascannons when compacted

Says who? The fact that they "haven't made railguns in smaller versions" is not really applicable here(especially because they have during the Great Crusade and the Dark Age of Technology before it), and the idea of them being "superior to lascannons when compacted" is conjecture. The Tau's smallest "railgun" that retains high anti-tank capability(note: anti-tank. Not anti-material, like the railrifle is) is needed to be mounted on a Broadside suit. The Broadside has to sacrifice all the mobility of the Crisis Suit chassis and be uparmored to be survivable.

And the imperium doesn't use networks of extremely sophisticated lasers and targeting systems that makes their shooting near perfect.

I'm pretty sure the Navy gunnery crews and their Fire Control Observers on the field would disagree with that sentiment.

Imagine the imperial guard in modified fire-warrior Armour.

You mean like the armor that Stormtroopers/Kasrkin wear?

Because that's what "Fire-Warrior Armour" is at its core. It's Carapace Armor with a few techy bits that we don't actually see utilized in-game.

Or for that matter imagine the imperium's industry applied to the mass production of battle-suits for use in the imperial guard?

Again. Overspecialization is bad, especially when you're talking about outfitting billions of troops with a system that requires years of training and expertise to master.

And just because the Eldar made them doesn't mean the Imperium can't take them apart and make Blackstone super weapons and mount them on ships.

Uh, yeah it does. Even the Eldar don't know how to replicate the Blackstone Fortresses.

You don't hand a monkey an Allen wrench and your Ikea furniture and expect to find it fully assembled afterwards.

Yeah, if the race that created the thing in the first place doesn't know how to reverse engineer it, how do you expect another race to?

And yes, overspecialization is bad. Take the Leman Russ Punisher for example. That is specialized for anti-infantry. It does a terrific job at it, but against armor, it sucks. The standard Leman Russ is a wonderful vehicle, able to take on many different roles as just the standard model. They are not specialized, but excel in many different roles.

And it would also cost way too much to equip a lot of Space Marines with Terminator armor. Not to mention that, as said before, it is effective in close quarters or tight environments, but out in the open, it is not as effective.

ChocolateGork wrote:The admech a bunch of spazo re-re's. Its heresy to reverse enginner your own tech adn heresy to reverse engineer tau tech...... Yeah the non warp FTL is heresy. What idiots.

Yeah, I thought the same of them when I began playing 40k. They reminded me of the priest-engineers of Anacreon described in the first Foundation book... A secretive caste of scientific illiterates whose only role is to preserve technological lore, and to perform rites and incantations and various other theatricals to hide their own shortcomings.

However, after looking a bit deeper into the fluff, they started to seem less like clueless witchdoctors and more like deliberate knowledge monopolists. They are not doing science anymore but they still understand the workings of their technology to some extent, a knowledge they try to keep to themselves by burying it under layers of obscurity and ritual. They know their stranglehold on technology, one of the lifelines of the Imperium, is their main source of power and they intend to keep things that way.

As for reverse-engineering... It's done quite often. Most STCs are incomplete and need to be reworked (The Land Raider STC was said to be "almost complete" when Arkhan Land found it). Also, they tinker with and upgrade existing STC-based designs. Xenos devices are also disassembled and studied (I recall the case of an Eldar Cruiser captured intact during the Gothic War, just to be destroyed before the techpriests had a chance to board it), though most of it is found a) blaspheme b) unusable c) incomprehensible d) inferior and therefore refused.

Oh not just the Eldar.

There's, in the Deathwatch RPG, mention of captured Tau stealth tech being broken down and rebuilt. It's going okay, but it's still got a lot of kinks to be worked out and much of the tech still has to be nailed down without the Xenos bits in it.

Otherwise, woohoo Stealth Power Armour.

I don't think there's much canonical evidence for Tau being on average shorter than humans.

IG are taller than normal humans, of course, so that makes a difference.

could an IG pilot one... maybe if modified but as said i couldn't see it as see imperium already has better armor... it is for the space marines

that said this gave me an idea for another looted vehicle for my orks, maybe make a looted battlesuits for killa kanz

I'll have to finish my looted wagon made from a trygon fisrt... but after that I'm going to try this i think it could be cool

The Last Chancer trying to pilot the Crisis Suit was fried alive.

Sadly that doesn't mean that another novel won't tell the opposite, of course. On the other hand, this one was written by Gav, so maybe it'll still become hard canon or at least respected by other BL authors, even if they're under no obligation to heed it.

Perhaps a Tau battlesuit has an unlock code to prevent theft. Perhaps the code is sometimes deactivated by battle damage.

Just guesses, I have no Fluff to show these ideas.

Provided he did manage to get in it safely, it would still be a pain to use. Tau have fewer fingers, I believe, which in itself is a major
complication. Not to mention the hoof thing would make walking hazardous, and the helmets probably don't account for nose room...

Kroothawk wrote:The Last Chancer trying to pilot the Crisis Suit was fried alive.

Tau parking brakes are a pain, huh?

Kasrkai wrote:Provided he did manage to get in it safely, it would still be a pain to use. Tau have fewer fingers, I believe, which in itself is a major
complication. Not to mention the hoof thing would make walking hazardous, and the helmets probably don't account for nose room...

Good point, Tau have a different walk anyways, right? And the helmet optics may even operate on a different spectrum, though that's just theory.

For the record, I actually like Gav's idea concerning those rods - reminds me of the Black Carapace or MIU implants sometimes used to operate similar machinery.

No.

Tau build that equipment only for themselves, no aliens allowed.

maybe a gundum pilot could fly it........

I think if the ad mech really wanted ftl travel that did not use the warp they would try to get their hands on some necron tech.

Malivon wrote:I think if the ad mech really wanted ftl travel that did not use the warp they would try to get their hands on some necron tech.

They constantly do and it always ends badly for the involved techpriests.

Kanluwen wrote:Oh not just the Eldar.

There's, in the Deathwatch RPG, mention of captured Tau stealth tech being broken down and rebuilt. It's going okay, but it's still got a lot of kinks to be worked out and much of the tech still has to be nailed down without the Xenos bits in it.

Otherwise, woohoo Stealth Power Armour.

Oh.
Hell.
Yes.
We'll never see it in fluff or in game but the idea makes me happy...
Incidentally, the monkeys are learning!
Thank you.

NicMonsteR wrote:zMaybe a Gundum pilot could fly it........

I see what you did there...

KingDeath wrote:

Malivon wrote:I think if the ad mech really wanted ftl travel that did not use the warp they would try to get their hands on some necron tech.

They constantly do and it always ends badly for the involved techpriests.

They could probably dig 10 meters deeper in mars and find some!

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad? How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode? Smart Missiles that fly around and hone in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

I think cost plays a factor to cheaper to build and mantain something then after all the imperium is a huge buerachrecy

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad?

A tank that hovers, is lightly armored, and fires two rounds which can pop tanks or vaporize hordes is bad when it requires a load of specialist training, constant upkeep from highly trained specialist repair personnel, is reliant upon favorable weather conditions, and can be hulled by commonly distributed support weapons.

In contrast, a basic Leman Russ is a simple machine which can be loaded with six shell variants, only one of which is considered 'rare'.
-HE
-AT
-Illumination
-Infernus
-Smoke
-Hunter

How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode?

A disruption pod is ECM spoofing. That's not some kind of massive achievement. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle makes it clear that the Imperium has it on Astartes Scout armor. And ECM spoofing has its limitations...popping smoke is a simple, effective measure that benefits both the tank and any infantry escorting the tank.

However, when it comes down to it, as usual that's like comparing apples and shotguns. The Tau way of war is in no way similar to the Imperium's. The Imperium is all about mass production and ease of use. They want something any idiot can be taught to use within a manner of days, not weeks or months.

Smart Missiles that fly around and home in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

You must not be aware of 'Hunter Shells'. The Imperium can't produce them anymore, but they do have stockpiles of them that are occasionally found and distributed amongst veteran tank crews. They've got a small logic-engine similar to that in a Hunter-Killer Missile and can be fired by any Leman Russ variant.

And then of course you've got the Hunter-Killer Missiles themselves.

Kanluwen wrote:You don't hand a monkey an Allen wrench and your Ikea furniture and expect to find it fully assembled afterwards.

What if it's a Jokaero?

Jokaeros are apes, not monkeys.

First of all they are Xenos. They might look like apes and one theory says they might be related. But still.

Hi all

Don't know huge amounts about the Tau, a lot of what I know is probably imperial propaganda.

In Henry Zou's Emperor Mercey, Inquisitor Barq uses Tau Tech he seizes from a Narco Baron. The description of the tech is a of an upper body rig with gatling style cannons built into the arms and Pistons/hydraulics built in to take the recoil aswell as amplify strength. So maybe it is a case that tau tech can be reverse engineered but only the Rich criminal types would bother.

In regards to Firewarrior armour I did assume this was basically carapace, I thought the helmets was to compensate for Tau having poor eye sight (this might be the propaganda).

I have to agree with the sentiments that the imperium wants to keep things simple so any one can use. I mean look at the difference in cultures, the Tau have a Fire Caste so you can assume that they are probably trained from birth. The Imperium (although cadia, Kreig and Catachan might be the exceptions) does not have a warrior class, your conscripted given a las gun and shoved out and airlock in a dropship.

Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

So it's activated by dancing and singing.

Do the tau actually share the big things like crisis suits?

Nope.

nomotog wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

So it's activated by dancing and singing.

Do the tau actually share the big things like crisis suits?

In one of the novels they sold some kind of weapons suit to a Hive gang. It wasn't a Crisis suit though.

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad?

A tank that hovers, is lightly armored, and fires two rounds which can pop tanks or vaporize hordes is bad when it requires a load of specialist training, constant upkeep from highly trained specialist repair personnel, is reliant upon favorable weather conditions, and can be hulled by commonly distributed support weapons.

In contrast, a basic Leman Russ is a simple machine which can be loaded with six shell variants, only one of which is considered 'rare'.
-HE
-AT
-Illumination
-Infernus
-Smoke
-Hunter

How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode?

A disruption pod is ECM spoofing. That's not some kind of massive achievement. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle makes it clear that the Imperium has it on Astartes Scout armor. And ECM spoofing has its limitations...popping smoke is a simple, effective measure that benefits both the tank and any infantry escorting the tank.

However, when it comes down to it, as usual that's like comparing apples and shotguns. The Tau way of war is in no way similar to the Imperium's. The Imperium is all about mass production and ease of use. They want something any idiot can be taught to use within a manner of days, not weeks or months.

Smart Missiles that fly around and home in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

You must not be aware of 'Hunter Shells'. The Imperium can't produce them anymore, but they do have stockpiles of them that are occasionally found and distributed amongst veteran tank crews. They've got a small logic-engine similar to that in a Hunter-Killer Missile and can be fired by any Leman Russ variant.

And then of course you've got the Hunter-Killer Missiles themselves.

My original reply wasn't in the Imperial tech being garbage equipment, it was in response to the ignorant post about Imperial technology being better than anything the Tau have ever created. In my opinion that isn't even a discussion it's so wrong. The apex of human technology wasn't even on par with the Eldar or Necrons. It was good, but its way overplayed.

it is heresy to hop into xenos armour

Kilkrazy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

So it's activated by dancing and singing.

Do the tau actually share the big things like crisis suits?

In one of the novels they sold some kind of weapons suit to a Hive gang. It wasn't a Crisis suit though.

Isn't that used as the basis for one of the Necromunda factions too?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad?

A tank that hovers, is lightly armored, and fires two rounds which can pop tanks or vaporize hordes is bad when it requires a load of specialist training, constant upkeep from highly trained specialist repair personnel, is reliant upon favorable weather conditions, and can be hulled by commonly distributed support weapons.

In contrast, a basic Leman Russ is a simple machine which can be loaded with six shell variants, only one of which is considered 'rare'.
-HE
-AT
-Illumination
-Infernus
-Smoke
-Hunter

How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode?

A disruption pod is ECM spoofing. That's not some kind of massive achievement. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle makes it clear that the Imperium has it on Astartes Scout armor. And ECM spoofing has its limitations...popping smoke is a simple, effective measure that benefits both the tank and any infantry escorting the tank.

However, when it comes down to it, as usual that's like comparing apples and shotguns. The Tau way of war is in no way similar to the Imperium's. The Imperium is all about mass production and ease of use. They want something any idiot can be taught to use within a manner of days, not weeks or months.

Smart Missiles that fly around and home in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

You must not be aware of 'Hunter Shells'. The Imperium can't produce them anymore, but they do have stockpiles of them that are occasionally found and distributed amongst veteran tank crews. They've got a small logic-engine similar to that in a Hunter-Killer Missile and can be fired by any Leman Russ variant.

And then of course you've got the Hunter-Killer Missiles themselves.

My original reply wasn't in the Imperial tech being garbage equipment, it was in response to the ignorant post about Imperial technology being better than anything the Tau have ever created. In my opinion that isn't even a discussion it's so wrong. The apex of human technology wasn't even on par with the Eldar or Necrons. It was good, but its way overplayed.

Maybe not, but as Kanluwen has demonstrated this belief of Tau technological superiority on all fronts is mostly wrong, considering, as demonstrated, pieces of supposed ace and exclusive Tau tech is available to The Imperium but in a whole lot more available and useful form.

Well to be fair the "technology" is substitutes, not actually the same technology in a superior format.

E.g. smoke is free but it can only be used once per game.

nobody wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

So it's activated by dancing and singing.

Do the tau actually share the big things like crisis suits?

In one of the novels they sold some kind of weapons suit to a Hive gang. It wasn't a Crisis suit though.

Isn't that used as the basis for one of the Necromunda factions too?

Yes. The Spyrers. The Inquisition has been inferring that the reason the Spyrer rigs are 'given' at such low costs(relatively) is because it's chock full of recording equipment that documents Imperial society.

Kilkrazy wrote:Well to be fair the "technology" is substitutes, not actually the same technology in a superior format.

The point was that the Imperium has the technology, it just isn't effective in wide-spread distribution, manufacturing, or any other possible factor when it comes to the Imperium's level of manpower required to be equipped.

E.g. smoke is free but it can only be used once per game.

To work off your example:
Smoke isn't the same as ECM spoofing, you're right.

However, the "Disruptor Pod" technology that the Tau have mounted on vehicles is hard-wired into Scout armor for the Astartes.
Why have it on Scout armor and not tanks? Probably because you can't 'vanish' an Imperial tank from line-of-sight, but a Scout wearing a Cameloline Cloak and operating as part of an observational element would get a huge benefit if they can be rendered invisible to the naked eye(Cameloline) and sensor suites that might be scanning for them(what Deathwatch: Rites of Battle refers to as 'Anointments of Obfuscation').

Kilkrazy wrote:Well to be fair the "technology" is substitutes, not actually the same technology in a superior format.

E.g. smoke is free but it can only be used once per game.

And as demonstrated, that's not entirely true either. Scouts have the same thing wired into their armour, it's simply more convenient to have smoke, which obscures infantry as well. I'm not disagreeing that Tau tech isn't great, or more advanced in places, such as railguns, which yes, The Imperium HAD, but they don't have them as the primary anti armour gun on their most widely used tank, but it's not quite this Tau are universally better than The Imperium thing.

Personal theory time

Likely the reason we don't see railguns on Imperial tanks is that, no matter how "OH MY GOD AWESOME" they seem, they're also highly impractical and incredibly specialized. Even the 'submunition' round is a poor substitute for a standard HE round from a standard tank.

The Hammerhead and its Railgun is a very specialized vehicle, very much like the Imperium's "Destroyer" tank hunter. The Leman Russ MBT is very much a 'jack of all trades', with the rounds being used as equalizers and drastically improving their specialty as necessary.

The Leman Russ variants are, of course, a different story entirely. They're almost all without a doubt highly specialized. The Exterminator and Punisher are anti-infantry, the Executioner and Demolishers excel at specific roles(the Executioner being dealing with heavily armored or hard to weed out infantry, with the Demolisher excelling at urban combat and siege warfare), the Conqueror and Vanquisher have their own roles, etc etc.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad?

A tank that hovers, is lightly armored, and fires two rounds which can pop tanks or vaporize hordes is bad when it requires a load of specialist training, constant upkeep from highly trained specialist repair personnel, is reliant upon favorable weather conditions, and can be hulled by commonly distributed support weapons.

In contrast, a basic Leman Russ is a simple machine which can be loaded with six shell variants, only one of which is considered 'rare'.
-HE
-AT
-Illumination
-Infernus
-Smoke
-Hunter

How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode?

A disruption pod is ECM spoofing. That's not some kind of massive achievement. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle makes it clear that the Imperium has it on Astartes Scout armor. And ECM spoofing has its limitations...popping smoke is a simple, effective measure that benefits both the tank and any infantry escorting the tank.

However, when it comes down to it, as usual that's like comparing apples and shotguns. The Tau way of war is in no way similar to the Imperium's. The Imperium is all about mass production and ease of use. They want something any idiot can be taught to use within a manner of days, not weeks or months.

Smart Missiles that fly around and home in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

You must not be aware of 'Hunter Shells'. The Imperium can't produce them anymore, but they do have stockpiles of them that are occasionally found and distributed amongst veteran tank crews. They've got a small logic-engine similar to that in a Hunter-Killer Missile and can be fired by any Leman Russ variant.

And then of course you've got the Hunter-Killer Missiles themselves.

My original reply wasn't in the Imperial tech being garbage equipment, it was in response to the ignorant post about Imperial technology being better than anything the Tau have ever created. In my opinion that isn't even a discussion it's so wrong. The apex of human technology wasn't even on par with the Eldar or Necrons. It was good, but its way overplayed.

What?

Where have I said that human tech is on par with Eldar or Necron?. As far as I know, it never was... and neither is Tau technology, for what matters.

What I wanted to stress with my oh-so-ignorant post is that the Imperium is an old dog. The Tau have managed to get pretty close to their technological level but, while that alone is quite an achievement, they have yet to surpass it.

Tau titans?. Close, but no cigar. Bioengineered troops?. Not yet, sir. Clinical immortality?. Nay. Machine spirits? Warp FTL?...

However, unless they unearth some fancy "new" forgotten supertech from the days of old, or they finally manage to guess how wraithbone or gauss tech works, we've already seen everything the Imperium's got to throw at us. They've gone far, but won't likely go any further. The Tau, on the other hand, are firmly headed towards their own Dark Age of Technology. Unlike the Imperium, they have a bright future waiting before them, they're just not there yet.

The Tau are upstarts. Think Microsoft in the 1980s, surrounded by all those IBMs and General Electrics and the like. They can't fight face-off with the big dogs out there, but someday they will. That's what makes them unique IMHO.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
The Tau are upstarts. Think Microsoft in the 1980s, surrounded by all those IBMs and General Electrics and the like. They can't fight face-off with the big dogs out there, but someday they will.

Indeed, someday they shall. For in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, GW finally advances the timeline.

Kanluwen wrote:Personal theory time

Likely the reason we don't see railguns on Imperial tanks is that, no matter how "OH MY GOD AWESOME" they seem, they're also highly impractical and incredibly specialized. Even the 'submunition' round is a poor substitute for a standard HE round from a standard tank.

The Hammerhead and its Railgun is a very specialized vehicle, very much like the Imperium's "Destroyer" tank hunter. The Leman Russ MBT is very much a 'jack of all trades', with the rounds being used as equalizers and drastically improving their specialty as necessary.

The Leman Russ variants are, of course, a different story entirely. They're almost all without a doubt highly specialized. The Exterminator and Punisher are anti-infantry, the Executioner and Demolishers excel at specific roles(the Executioner being dealing with heavily armored or hard to weed out infantry, with the Demolisher excelling at urban combat and siege warfare), the Conqueror and Vanquisher have their own roles, etc etc.

You can fling other things out of a rail gun. The tau don't do that right now, but you can throw basically anything you want. (I am basing this in MGS) The reason we don't see railguns on IoM tanks (you know apart form style points) is that they don't have the railgun tank STC.

Which is wrong. SCT's don't exist . I think you may mean STCs, which is still no quite correct. Not everything originates from an STC. They had Railguns on ships during the Heresy, fairly certain they've now lost that knowledge though.

Agent_Tremolo wrote: What?

Where have I said that human tech is on par with Eldar or Necron?. As far as I know, it never was... and neither is Tau technology, for what matters.

What I wanted to stress with my oh-so-ignorant post is that the Imperium is an old dog. The Tau have managed to get pretty close to their technological level but, while that alone is quite an achievement, they have yet to surpass it.

Tau titans?. Close, but no cigar. Bioengineered troops?. Not yet, sir. Clinical immortality?. Nay. Machine spirits? Warp FTL?...

However, unless they unearth some fancy "new" forgotten supertech from the days of old, or they finally manage to guess how wraithbone or gauss tech works, we've already seen everything the Imperium's got to throw at us. They've gone far, but won't likely go any further. The Tau, on the other hand, are firmly headed towards their own Dark Age of Technology. Unlike the Imperium, they have a bright future waiting before them, they're just not there yet.

The Tau are upstarts. Think Microsoft in the 1980s, surrounded by all those IBMs and General Electrics and the like. They can't fight face-off with the big dogs out there, but someday they will. That's what makes them unique IMHO.

You never said it was on par, I stated that an empire that never even reached the galactic "standard" in 40K is overplayed.


1. Tiger Shark > Titans. - Costs less, does more.
2. Battlesuits > Bio-engineered Troops. - No civil wars, materials required aren't becoming extinct.
3. Clinical Imoortality doesn't exist in the IoM. Dreads preserve but do not make immortal. The Emperor is anything but alive in the flesh and Space Marines don't live forever.

On a purely tech scale I'd rank the Tau tied in second with Eldar behind Necrons.

---
Also, to address the specilized issue about Tau Hammerheads, their is nothing indicating anything less than them being easier vehicles to use than Russes. Targeting Arrays do all the hard work for you. Literally, a Hammerhead is a flying Predator that packs a harder punch, sports better cover, and has a wider front with sloped armor.

Overspecialization? Thats what you WANT in a tank and tank crew! You want the best using the best to perform the best! You can't say "No thats worse because mine is crappier and thats better!" Hell no! Doesn't work that way! If your bad tanks and their bad tank crews are getting 1 Kill per 10 deaths to a smart computer with a geek crew then too damn bad! No debate! U are lose!

And what the heck is impractical about a treadless tank? That might be one of the best pieces of technology in armored warfare! All terrain can be passed and you have landing gear for hunkering down! That is bad?! What?!

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

1. Tiger Shark > Titans. - Costs less, does more.

Yeah, I knew this would come up again.
The Tiger Sharks and Mantas deployed against Warhound Titans required the Tau to completely strip air cover from a massive area just to ensure they'd get to the strike zone.

2. Battlesuits > Bio-engineered Troops. - No civil wars, materials required aren't becoming extinct.

Yeah...Battlesuits also can't go many of the places the Astartes can, and are more fragile. But go on.

3. Clinical Immortality doesn't exist in the IoM. Dreads preserve but do not make immortal. The Emperor is anything but alive in the flesh and Space Marines don't live forever.

And 0 for 3.
Juvenat processes extend the lifespan of individuals quite a bit.
Then of course, you've got the way the Mechanicus do it where they create a cybernetic body and retain a consciousness within.

On a purely tech scale I'd rank the Tau tied in second with Eldar behind Necrons.

Uh, try fourth. Tau are nowhere near the level of the Eldar except in hover tech.

Also, to address the specialized issue about Tau Hammerheads, there is nothing indicating anything less than them being easier vehicles to use than Russes. Targeting Arrays do all the hard work for you. Literally, a Hammerhead is a flying Predator that packs a harder punch, sports better cover, and has a wider front with sloped armor.

It also has, fluffwise, less armor, requires a driver and a dedicated gunner at all times while the Predator can have the Machine Spirit take over if necessary and the gunner or driver are taken out.

Overspecialization? Thats what you WANT in a tank and tank crew! You want the best using the best to perform the best! You can't say "No thats worse because mine is crappier and thats better!" Hell no! Doesn't work that way! If your bad tanks and their bad tank crews are getting 1 Kill per 10 deaths to a smart computer with a geek crew then too damn bad! No debate! U are lose!

You are completely not understanding, but I can get why. You're still insisting on thinking of the Guard and their tanks as operating the same as the Tau.

They don't. The Hammerhead has a specific role to play in the Fire Caste's method of war, where they don't have support weapons in every squad. They and the Skyray both provide long distance fire support, particularly aimed at silencing enemy armor.

Guard tanks are deployed en masse, and use the same methodology that the Sherman and many tanks on the Allied side in WWII used.
They support the infantry in close support roles. They don't stay far in the back and wait for targets, they actively are hunting and are there when the infantry need them to be.

And what the heck is impractical about a treadless tank? That might be one of the best pieces of technology in armored warfare! All terrain can be passed and you have landing gear for hunkering down! That is bad?! What?!

You also surrender a large amount of armor, require far more maintenance, and are restricted by weather conditions that ground aircraft.

So yeah--that's bad.

I think Kanluwen has hit every nail on the head with that post.

iproxtaco wrote:I think Kanluwen has hit every nail on the head with that post.

No he hasn't.. It's all off topic though, so ya.

Explain how this is not the case then.

@Kan

1. Titans proved to be utterly pointless against Tau once counter-tactics were developed. Turns out, increasing the size of the bunker does little to negate the buster that pops it. Larger Titan /= to better Titan.

2. Battlesuits can't go in many of the areas Astartes can, they can kill everything an Astartes can though, with better weapon load outs too. They also make superior super soldiers since they aren't prone to galaxy wide civil wars.

3. So you're saying that Clinical immortality exists because it doesn't? Umm wut?

4. 4th? I would imagine a race that blends the best of hover technology with the best of firepower and slaps it on a decent armored vehicle is considered the best. It doesn't rely on its speed, firepower, or armor alone but instead all three. While an Imperial armored coloumn needs a few days to get up to a city a hundred miles away through poor terrain, it might take a Hammerhead Pack a few hours.

As for tank tactics, you are correct. Which is why Imperial armor is terrible. WWII Allied Tank tactics were so horrible it might be the only factor that we lost all war until the end. Smaller, more organized tank "packs" are a far better way of going about armored warfare. They can support infantry, roll up on flanks, hunt armor, become low priority during air raids, etc etc. Saying that the maintenance is an issue is also wrong! Tank crews that don't work non-stop on their tanks utterly fail and suck in all ways. It's like an Infantryman who doesn't work on his rifle at all hours, if he isn't giving his baby love he isn't getting any in return.

And why would an Anti-Grav tank be grounded during bad weather? Most aircraft can fly in adverse weather but choose not too in the most terrible situations, and that's flying in the sky, a tank hovering over the ground would be fine. Considering all Tau vehicles are anti-grav, a storm would ground their entire military... yeah.. but no.

Edit: Sotrm? lol

BeefCakeSoup wrote:@Kan
1. Titans proved to be utterly pointless against Tau once counter-tactics were developed. Turns out, increasing the size of the bunker does little to negate the buster that pops it. Larger Titan /= to better Titan.

Titans are pointless in many cases to begin with. What's your point?

That the Tau are smarter for using aircraft? Because that's a fair point.

But as I seemingly have to say every freaking time we have this discussion:
The Tau had to divert an entire air campaign to kill a pair of Scout Titans.

Do you see how ridiculous that is, for something that is supposed to be so absurdly "effective"? The first few times Titans have been utilized by the Imperium against the Tau, they have made a huge impact in the role of them being used as 'terror weapons'. Requiring your enemy to shift entire battlegroups to counter a pair of lightly armed scouts is huge.

2. Battlesuits can't go in many of the areas Astartes can, they can kill everything an Astartes can though, with better weapon load outs too. They also make superior super soldiers since they aren't prone to galaxy wide civil wars.

Because the Tau aren't galaxy-wide, first off.
Secondly, let's not ignore the side effects we've seen so far in the Tau Fire Caste pilots of battlesuits. Tremors, paranoia, and general 'unease' that leads them to be prone to starting fights when out of their suits.

And really, weapon load-outs again?
Pretty much everything a Battlesuit can do, an Astartes can do by exchanging their bolter rounds for specialist rounds.

3. So you're saying that Clinical immortality exists because it doesn't? Umm wut?

I'm saying that you're wrong. Your statement of "Clinical immortality doesn't exist because Dreadnoughts aren't really alive or immortal and the Emperor is in stasis and the Golden Throne can't be replicated" is a flawed example.

4. 4th? I would imagine a race that blends the best of hover technology with the best of firepower and slaps it on a decent armored vehicle is considered the best. It doesn't rely on its speed, firepower, or armor alone but instead all three. While an Imperial armored column needs a few days to get up to a city a hundred miles away through poor terrain, it might take a Hammerhead Pack a few hours.

And that Hammerhead 'Shoal'(the designation they use for them) can be countered by most common infantry support weapons and the standard weapons loadouts on most Sentinel Scout walkers.

Leman Russes can't, however, be countered by anything that the standard Tau infantry or Pathfinders carry with them.
Hammerheads can be countered by Tankbusta rokkits, Missiles, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Lascannons, et al.

As for tank tactics, you are correct. Which is why Imperial armor is terrible. WWII Allied Tank tactics were so horrible it might be the only factor that we lost all war until the end. Smaller, more organized tank "packs" are a far better way of going about armored warfare. They can support infantry, roll up on flanks, hunt armor, become low priority during air raids, etc etc.

You know what else takes low priority during air raids?
Armored columns with anti-aircraft support. Interestingly enough, that's exactly what Imperial Armored Columns do. Hydras are delegated as necessary.
And yes, 'smaller, more organized tank packs are a better way of going about armored warfare'...right now. As I keep having to say: the Imperium can pump Leman Russes out like nobody's business. It's stupidly easy to learn how to operate, and it's stupidly easy to be repaired. If the main weapon is damaged, it can be removed relatively easily and replaced with something else.

Saying that the maintenance is an issue is also wrong! Tank crews that don't work non-stop on their tanks utterly fail and suck in all ways. It's like an Infantryman who doesn't work on his rifle at all hours, if he isn't giving his baby love he isn't getting any in return.

Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

And why would an Anti-Grav tank be grounded during bad weather? Most aircraft can fly in adverse weather but choose not too in the most terrible situations, and that's flying in the sky, a tank hovering over the ground would be fine. Considering all Tau vehicles are anti-grav, a storm would ground their entire military... yeah.. but no.

Considering Hammerheads and Devilfish deploy initially via insertion from Mantas flying at around 1600 feet, and the 'anti-grav' tank is temperamental at best...then yeah. They would be fethed in foul weather that would actually ground aircraft in 40k.

iproxtaco wrote:Explain how this is not the case then.

Stealth suits.

Can go anywhere an SM in armour can (except the officers' club), give better protection, and have more mobility.

I agree, I was simply stating that every point was argued with little or no room for retort.

Imperial tech is different from Tau tech. Both have roughly the same roles fulfilled by entirely different forms of tech. Elite roles are fulffiled with power armoured goons on one side, mechs on the other. Super Heavy support is fulfilled by massive tanks and walkers on one side, massive flyers on the other.
Effectiveness varies as well. Titans and Super Heavy tanks are better at providing support as they carry more high powered weaponry, have superior armour, and equire less support to keep them safe. Battlesuits on the other hand are more mobile and can fulfill a wider variety of roles than a Space Marine can due to numbers and a larger number of heavy weapons per suit, and the relative speed of their production.

Kanluwen wrote:
Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

I don't think there is any fluff basis for that statement. Yes the earth caste builds the tanks, but that dosen't mean they are required to maintain the tanks. The air cast has ground crews are made up of air cast members. That suggest that you don't need earth caste members to rearm and repair vehicles. It could easily be the case that tank operators have the know how to fix and troubleshoot problems with the mechanics (Maybe they have an A.I that helps).

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

I don't think there is any fluff basis for that statement. Yes the earth caste builds the tanks, but that dosen't mean they are required to maintain the tanks. The air caste has ground crews are made up of air cast members.

And guess who builds the ships that the Air Caste ground crews maintain?
The Air Caste!

That suggest that you don't need earth caste members to rearm and repair vehicles. It could easily be the case that tank operators have the know how to fix and troubleshoot problems with the mechanics (Maybe they have an A.I that helps).

No, it doesn't.
If the Air Caste has ground crews that are made up of Air Caste members, it fully 100% reinforces my statement that the Earth Caste are the engineers who know how to repair the tanks.

It's also reinforced by, you know, the whole "Fire Caste is entirely dedicated to warfare" thing. They do not have mechanics in their ranks, they are 100% through and through fighters.

So no. The Fire Caste doesn't know how to repair their tanks in the field, mostly because as I said it's a stupidly complex machine and isn't generally put 'on the frontlines' but rather lurks in the wings and acts as an opportunist.

That's just speculation.

No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.

Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Kanluwen wrote:Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Licensed / outsourced products cannot create canon, they can only work with it - so whilst certainly useful for speculation, I'd rather not state such things as facts.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Licensed / outsourced products cannot create canon, they can only work with it - so whilst certainly useful for speculation, I'd rather not state such things as facts.

Licensed/outsourced products being written by the creative staff licensing out can make canon.

Deal with it.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

I don't think there is any fluff basis for that statement. Yes the earth caste builds the tanks, but that dosen't mean they are required to maintain the tanks. The air caste has ground crews are made up of air cast members.

And guess who builds the ships that the Air Caste ground crews maintain?
The Air Caste!

That suggest that you don't need earth caste members to rearm and repair vehicles. It could easily be the case that tank operators have the know how to fix and troubleshoot problems with the mechanics (Maybe they have an A.I that helps).

No, it doesn't.
If the Air Caste has ground crews that are made up of Air Caste members, it fully 100% reinforces my statement that the Earth Caste are the engineers who know how to repair the tanks.

It's also reinforced by, you know, the whole "Fire Caste is entirely dedicated to warfare" thing. They do not have mechanics in their ranks, they are 100% through and through fighters.

So no. The Fire Caste doesn't know how to repair their tanks in the field, mostly because as I said it's a stupidly complex machine and isn't generally put 'on the frontlines' but rather lurks in the wings and acts as an opportunist.

Air caste ships are designed and built by the earth caste. The only example if have found is the custodian It says that the earth caste designed it. I guess you could try to argue that they only designed it and the air caste builds it, but I haven't see anything to suggest that they build their own ships. (If the air case built there own ships, then why dosen't the fire case build their own tanks?)

Warfare is a fair amount different for the tau then it would be for us. I think your assuming that technical skills wouldn't be taught or that they wouldn't be useful. That's hardly the case. A big part of fighting is learning how to use your equipment. Learning to maintain it, fix it and use it. For the tau, all three aspects would involve a high amount of tech literacy.

Finally tau tech is not stupidly complex (not when you compare it to a bolter). Sure it's advance, but that's because the tau are advanced. There has been nothing to suggest that tau tech is overly expensive or unreliable. If it was, then it wouldn't be used on their basic units. (Well we are at it, people who use stupidly complex super solders shouldn't throw stones. I mean they spit acid. )

Kanluwen wrote:Licensed/outsourced products being written by the creative staff licensing out can make canon.

Not according to GW officials.

Deal with it.

Look, I don't want to continue the debate here (we've already got another thread going if you want to add further remarks), I just think that you could mention the sources of your information, as for some people it may make a big difference if it appears in GW studio material or 3rd party books.

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.

Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.

Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

Yeah...we're talking about background not game stats.

And Lynata: if you don't want to keep up the debate, then don't come in spouting that continuous line.
The FFG material is being written by the same people who writing the codex material. It's not somehow magically being changed from one to the other. Look at the credits before posting.

Kanluwen wrote:And Lynata: if you don't want to keep up the debate, then don't come in spouting that continuous line.
The FFG material is being written by the same people who writing the codex material. It's not somehow magically being changed from one to the other. Look at the credits before posting.

Hey, if you want to debate, we can do that too.

The FFG material is not written by the same people. It's one or two known writers (I remember Andy Chambers, though I'm sure there was one more) working together with lots of guys who have no history with GW whatsover.

Maybe you don't know how Codices are written, or any material being churned out by a large company that uses teams for such things:

GW Guy 1: Hey, let's do this!
GW Guy 2: No, that sucks.
GW Guy 3: Dude, you can't do that.
GW Guy 1: Alright...
---> Codex release contains consensus.

GW Guy 1 goes to work with FFG
GW Guy 1: Hey, let's do this!
FFG Guy 1: Cool!
FFG Guy 2: I don't know, if you think so...
---> RPG book contains consensus, yet is nothing like the consensus over at GW HQ.

Just as an example. It is just as possible that "GW Guy" recommended against something but was overruled. Or hey, maybe this really is working like the entire team at GW thinks about it - but you don't know that, so don't call something a fact when it isn't.

So yes, look at the credits before posting.

Deathwatch credits:
Owen Barnes, Alan Bligh, John French, and Andy Hoare are all GW staff.
Licensing Manager, Owen Rees is also GW staff and well known for having a fantastic Dark Angels army.
Head of Intellectual Property, Alan Merrett(http://www.blacklibrary.com/Authors/Alan-Merrett.html) is in charge of according to GW itself "developing the wealth of Games Workshop's intellectual property".

Deathwatch Rites of Battle credits:
Owen Barnes, Andy Chambers, Ben Counter, Graham Davey, Andy Hoare--all GW staff or have a history with GW.

Mark of the Xenos:
Barnes, Chambers, Alex Davy, Andy Hoare--editing by Graham Davey.

Your ball.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

I don't think there is any fluff basis for that statement. Yes the earth caste builds the tanks, but that dosen't mean they are required to maintain the tanks. The air caste has ground crews are made up of air cast members.

And guess who builds the ships that the Air Caste ground crews maintain?
The Air Caste!

That suggest that you don't need earth caste members to rearm and repair vehicles. It could easily be the case that tank operators have the know how to fix and troubleshoot problems with the mechanics (Maybe they have an A.I that helps).

No, it doesn't.
If the Air Caste has ground crews that are made up of Air Caste members, it fully 100% reinforces my statement that the Earth Caste are the engineers who know how to repair the tanks.

It's also reinforced by, you know, the whole "Fire Caste is entirely dedicated to warfare" thing. They do not have mechanics in their ranks, they are 100% through and through fighters.

So no. The Fire Caste doesn't know how to repair their tanks in the field, mostly because as I said it's a stupidly complex machine and isn't generally put 'on the frontlines' but rather lurks in the wings and acts as an opportunist.

Air caste ships are designed and built by the earth caste. The only example if have found is the custodian It says that the earth caste designed it. I guess you could try to argue that they only designed it and the air caste builds it, but I haven't see anything to suggest that they build their own ships. (If the air case built there own ships, then why dosen't the fire case build their own tanks?)

Warfare is a fair amount different for the tau then it would be for us. I think your assuming that technical skills wouldn't be taught or that they wouldn't be useful. That's hardly the case. A big part of fighting is learning how to use your equipment. Learning to maintain it, fix it and use it. For the tau, all three aspects would involve a high amount of tech literacy.

Finally tau tech is not stupidly complex (not when you compare it to a bolter). Sure it's advance, but that's because the tau are advanced. There has been nothing to suggest that tau tech is overly expensive or unreliable. If it was, then it wouldn't be used on their basic units. (Well we are at it, people who use stupidly complex super solders shouldn't throw stones. I mean they spit acid. )

Tau tech can be more complex than the Imperium's because they are smaller and can thus produce them on a large scale. The Imperium on the other hand can not give every one of their soldiers the best weapon possible because they are so much larger. The Imperiums weapons aren't needlessly complex they are remarkably simplistic because it is easier to mass produce, with the exception to the things marines have maybe which are mostly relics. They were saying that it is stupidly complex compared to Imperial standards like lasguns, which fluff wise is only a little less effective. The Tau only seem to have better tech because they can afford to field it all at their scale, but if you compared their top tech to the Imperiums, then the Imperium wins. I'm not saying they aren't advancing fast, because when the Imperium was as young as them they had much lower tech levels. The Imperium has peaked though and we need to see how far the Tau go before they do too.

Kanluwen wrote:Your ball.

You seem to believe that FFG's writing staff is = GW. It isn't. That many of the books have some level of input from a GW writer (as I have said before) does not change that each of the books contains the personal preferences of a dozen people with no connection to Games Workshop whatsoever, which in turn "blurs" the aforementioned consensus. You do not even know which parts of the books were written by whom, do you? Are you even aware that there are contradictions between FFG's own books? And I don't even mean the incompatibility of stats and mechanics between individual books, I'm talking fluff details like nephium changing between being an addition to enhance promethium (ItV) and being an extract of it (RH).

But you even have this when established GW writers go off to write their own Black Library novels without anyone else to "detract" them: Without the "team check" back at GW HQ, contradictions arise, simply because everyone has his own ideas - which is the one thing that all responses we've heard from GW and BL writers so far have in common. I've been argueing from your side for quite a long time, but in the end, I cannot change what they said, and neither can you. Though in the meantime, I do believe that this is actually for the better, for I've seen a number of silly ideas in 3rd party work which I would not wish to overwrite the existing canon which I deem as better written in these aspects.

As for Alan Merret: you mean the guy who said that "FFG had other ideas than the GW team" in the foreword? Hmm...

I also happen to have had a forum-based discussion with one of the writers who has written fluff texts for several of the FFG books, and he specifically pointed out he doesn't care much for GW canon when he thinks it's silly or doesn't make for a good narrative. Which is an understandable preference for an author (also see the interview with C.S. Goto here), but it simply leads to contradictions that *I* would not want to have. Some just like their setting blurred, I prefer it as clear and crisp as possible.

In the end, we've heard enough statements from the people who actually work on the franchise in question. We have even seen this policy in action when supposed canon from licensed material simply gets ignored in later GW books, because GW (as a company) didn't like it.

Exactly like Gav Thorpe says it works.

But hey, we can also just wait and see what the next GW books will look like, right?

Speaking of, in your mind, does the latest "Daemon Hunter" supplement override the 5th edition GK Codex? The people at FFG seemed to think like a lot of other fans concerning some of Matt Ward's new fluff.

Nicholas wrote:Tau tech can be more complex than the Imperium's because they are smaller and can thus produce them on a large scale. The Imperium on the other hand can not give every one of their soldiers the best weapon possible because they are so much larger. The Imperiums weapons aren't needlessly complex they are remarkably simplistic because it is easier to mass produce, with the exception to the things marines have maybe which are mostly relics. They were saying that it is stupidly complex compared to Imperial standards like lasguns, which fluff wise is only a little less effective. The Tau only seem to have better tech because they can afford to field it all at their scale, but if you compared their top tech to the Imperiums, then the Imperium wins. I'm not saying they aren't advancing fast, because when the Imperium was as young as them they had much lower tech levels. The Imperium has peaked though and we need to see how far the Tau go before they do too.

I mentioned this in another thread. (the tech thread) The reason the tau can give their troops such good weapons is because they know how to build them. It's not because they are small. There size really has little to do with it (smaller size also means smaller industrial base). Increasing there size actually lets them field more advanced tech because it lets them pool more sources into researcher.

Doesn't the IoM have a tank that carries tanks? If anyone deserves the title of stupidly complex, it's the IoM. A bolter fires a missile out of a cannon shell. A chain sword is a sword with a chainsaw. They have titans. If the square cube law has told us anything, it's that giant robots do not work. (Small ones do though.) The IoM is actually stupidly advanced. They are just really bad at using their tech.

Kan, you really crack me up sometimes man!

Diverting some air assets isn't a big deal when you are dominating the air war.

DGC and Taros saw the IoM putting forth nothing more than pitiful attempts at maintaining clear skies. Hell, on Dal'yth they actually had to divert orbital defense escorts just to make a push on a star port...

So a Titan rolling up, making the Tau divert a Manta and give it some air support doesn't really equate to a huge deal. What it does do is cripple enemy morale, as they watch a massive tool of propoganda get its ass handed to it by a real war machine.

Also, suggesting that Earth Caste are required to maintain Hammerheads is loler at best. There is nothing that even suggests that, if anything, the opposite is suggested. Fire Warriors live and train for warfare and nothing else. So by that logic, a Fire Warrior tank crew would very likely be bonded by ritual, experts at tank combat, know their vehicle beyond any doubt, and train with it constantly. Basic field repairs would very likely be trained... but even then, assuming they weren't, an Earth Caste repair is as simple as an A.I. piloted drone rolling up, fixing your tank in a few minutes and rolling out... how pro is that? Very.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.
Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

And for the record, those are LASGUN shots...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
1. Tiger Shark > Titans. - Costs less, does more.
2. Battlesuits > Bio-engineered Troops. - No civil wars, materials required aren't becoming extinct.
3. Clinical Imoortality doesn't exist in the IoM. Dreads preserve but do not make immortal. The Emperor is anything but alive in the flesh and Space Marines don't live forever.

Ok, grab your nerdy glasses people. We're getting intellectual.

I'm sure you've heard this quite famous quote by Arthur C. Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

Thing is, most Tau technology is not that outlandish. Imperial tech, on the other hand, sways wildly from primitive to outright magical.

Techheads and sci-fi aficionados would gladly tell you how do railguns, robot drones, smart missiles, targeting arrays, laser telemetry and active camo systems work. In fact, most Tau technologies are moderately believeable, only exceptions being fusion/plasma weapons, FTL, antigrav vehicles, armored waldoes and shield generators (and the ridiculously small and efficient power source required to keep the whole lot running), but even those are frequent sights in most military sci-fi, from The Forever War to Hammer's Slammers.

If the Tau are rooted in science fiction, the Imperium is pure science-fantasy: Walking constructs tall as skyscrapers bristling with weapons of mass destruction, drugs that allow the user to assume any shape, sentient tanks crewed by synthetic personae, miniature shield generators concealed in pieces of jewelry, swords charged with "energy fields" that cut through metal like cheese, dead soldiers encased in living fighting machines, commanders who live on for millenia, entire legions of genetically-engineered posthuman troopers who can spit acid and breathe in vacuum, weapons who get their power from occult or paranormal forces, human computers, wild biomechanicals for pleasure or punishment, exotic energy weapons that disintegrate their targets, personal teleporters... The list can go on for pages. Explaining the workings behind all these "technological" wonders is only possible in fiction.

So, we have an alien version of the Mobile Infantry, the hi-tech soldiers of the future in one side of the spectrum, and a transhuman society capable of using devices that circunvent all known laws of nature, The bastard child of Ming of Mongo and the United Federation of Planets on the other. And yet they COEXIST in the same fictional universe.

To keep things coherent, I can only think of one explanation: Some of the Imperium of Man's technologies are extremely advanced. Indistinguishable from magic.

True, the lowly IG grunt would still make the run for the trenches with a buffed-up fashlight in his hands and, if he's lucky, the promethium-belching amalgamation of 400 centuries of armored warfare covering its back. That's the beauty of the Imperium: While in most works of fantasy and science fiction such galactic empires are depicted as prosperous libertarian/socialist utopias (or, at worst, frigid oligarchies), Wh40k depicts an hyperadvanced posthuman society that has outlived its intended expiration date, a brutal regime in the verge of collapse where medioeval peasants wield impossible technologies. Cavemen in a Dyson Sphere.

To better understand and appreciate the IoM, let me recomend you a novel (two, actually) that might have inspired the original GW writers that conceived it: "The Pastel City" (1971) and "Viriconium Nights" (1985) by british sci-fi author M. John Harrison. Both have been republished recently, in an omnibus entitled "Knights of Viriconium". Believe me, it's a worthy read.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:On a purely tech scale I'd rank the Tau tied in second with Eldar behind Necrons.

Heh, if some Imperial Tech is undistinguishable from magic, most if not all Eldar tech is, simply put, magic. Psychoreactive armor, tanks made of living bone, ghostly golems, sailing spaceships propelled by arcane energies, mages and warlocks...

But, why robbing the Tau of their charm?. I started collecting first Orks, then Tau because I'd rather play a race that's struggling for greatness (or fun) than one that's already achieved its full potential and is merely fighting to stay alive for a few centuries more. Also, I know it's a matter of tastes, but I prefer my Tau fluff to be believeable and even mature, if such word applies to 40k, rather than yet another MarySue-ish pulpy juvenile powertrip.

TrollPie wrote:Indeed, someday they shall. For in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, GW finally advances the timeline.

No need to advance the timeline. Make the wrong guy write their Codex and you'll have the Space Pope strangling velociraptors with his bare hands. We now it CAN happen

nomotog wrote:

Nicholas wrote:Tau tech can be more complex than the Imperium's because they are smaller and can thus produce them on a large scale. The Imperium on the other hand can not give every one of their soldiers the best weapon possible because they are so much larger. The Imperiums weapons aren't needlessly complex they are remarkably simplistic because it is easier to mass produce, with the exception to the things marines have maybe which are mostly relics. They were saying that it is stupidly complex compared to Imperial standards like lasguns, which fluff wise is only a little less effective. The Tau only seem to have better tech because they can afford to field it all at their scale, but if you compared their top tech to the Imperiums, then the Imperium wins. I'm not saying they aren't advancing fast, because when the Imperium was as young as them they had much lower tech levels. The Imperium has peaked though and we need to see how far the Tau go before they do too.

I mentioned this in another thread. (the tech thread) The reason the tau can give their troops such good weapons is because they know how to build them. It's not because they are small. There size really has little to do with it (smaller size also means smaller industrial base). Increasing there size actually lets them field more advanced tech because it lets them pool more sources into researcher.

Doesn't the IoM have a tank that carries tanks? If anyone deserves the title of stupidly complex, it's the IoM. A bolter fires a missile out of a cannon shell. A chain sword is a sword with a chainsaw. They have titans. If the square cube law has told us anything, it's that giant robots do not work. (Small ones do though.) The IoM is actually stupidly advanced. They are just really bad at using their tech.

IIRC the Imperium can create weapons with similar tech to pulse rifles, they just don't because of they are more expensive to produce than a lasguns. instead they modified them to be the more powerful and gave only a few out, this became plasma weapons. They will be able to put out more advanced tech, but not to every single trooper in their army. Economically having more resources to work with will not give them the ability to give all their soldiers their best stuff because they will also need more soldiers. They will most likely have pulse rifles as standard weapons still as resources and soldiers would be directly related so tech level would stay roughly the same. They will be able to add those newer weapons to a few of their soldiers like the IOM, but not to everyone. My point being that they seem to be more advanced than they are because the best they have can be given to everyone of their soldiers while IOM can not. If they reach the scale of the IOM only a few of their soldiers their more advanced tech will not always be deployed.

Some of the things IOM does can be awesome and make you facepalm at the same time But not because it's complex, but because it's simple. Bolters round are complex, but effective not complex for stupid reasons, the gun itself is even more simple. Chaniswords are also simple at the tech level of the age, complex now maybe, but in a world with power weapons and manomolecular blades it's simple and efficient. Lasgun is the pinnacle of simplicity and efficiency. However awesome they are, I will admit, on a practicality scale the Crassus and Titans are

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.
Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

And for the record, those are LASGUN shots...

Tad confused here. Are you saying that the armor is strong or weak? Because it dosen't look like the shots are doing anything. They also don't have solid trails that suggest some kind of slug weapon.

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.
Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

And for the record, those are LASGUN shots...

Tad confused here. Are you saying that the armor is strong or weak? Because it dosen't look like the shots are going anything, but scraping paint. They also don't have solid trails that suggest some kind of slug weapon.

Weak as those las shots are penetrating it as the holes and smoke billowing out of it's side would suggest.

Nicholas wrote:IIRC the Imperium can create weapons with similar tech to pulse rifles, they just don't because of they are more expensive to produce than a lasguns. instead they modified them to be the more powerful and gave only a few out, this became plasma weapons. They will be able to put out more advanced tech, but not to every single trooper in their army. Economically having more resources to work with will not give them the ability to give all their soldiers their best stuff because they will also need more soldiers. They will most likely have pulse rifles as standard weapons still as resources and soldiers would be directly related so tech level would stay roughly the same. They will be able to add those newer weapons to a few of their soldiers like the IOM, but not to everyone. My point being that they seem to be more advanced than they are because the best they have can be given to everyone of their soldiers while IOM can not. If they reach the scale of the IOM only a few of their soldiers their more advanced tech will not always be deployed.

Some of the things IOM does can be awesome and make you facepalm at the same time But not because it's complex, but because it's simple. Bolters round are complex, but effective not complex for stupid reasons, the gun itself is even more simple. Chaniswords are also simple at the tech level of the age, complex now maybe, but in a world with power weapons and manomolecular blades it's simple and efficient. Lasgun is the pinnacle of simplicity and efficiency. However awesome they are, I will admit, on a practicality scale the Crassus and Titans are

I always figured they used lasguns because they didn't want to pay for ammo.

I have to disagree with you again on the cost issue. Yes as the tau expand, they will need more people, but the square cube law comes up again. As they expand, the number of border worlds that need guarding will be fewer then the number of worlds that produce things. So again they will actually be able to make more advance weapons because they will have more wolds making these guns.

Nicholas wrote:
Weak as those las shots are penetrating it as the holes and smoke billowing out of it's side would suggest.

Ah. I did not notice that. Would be nice to see the whole thing. Then we can count the shots and get a guess of armor quality.

They won't simply have to guard those border planets, if they did it would be a disaster if say an ork waagh or Imperial crusade broke through and got a foothold. Not to mention many of the ships, having warp travel and all, could bypass those border planets easily.

Nicholas wrote:They won't simply have to guard those border planets, if they did it would be a disaster if say an ork waagh or Imperial crusade broke through and got a foothold. Not to mention many of the ships, having warp travel and all, could bypass those border planets easily.

Ya I thought of that too. If warp travel works in such a way that any planet is a border planet. The number of troops you need only grows at the rate you add new planets, so ya they would still be able to field the same level or more. Are you getting what I am saying here, or do I need to pull out the charts and graphs?

nomotog wrote:

Nicholas wrote:They won't simply have to guard those border planets, if they did it would be a disaster if say an ork waagh or Imperial crusade broke through and got a foothold. Not to mention many of the ships, having warp travel and all, could bypass those border planets easily.

Ya I thought of that too. If warp travel works in such a way that any planet is a border planet. The number of troops you need only grows at the rate you add new planets, so ya they would still be able to field the same level or more. Are you getting what I am saying here, or do I need to pull out the charts and graphs?

I'm saying that while they will advance in tech they will not be able to field it in every single battle. Their standard weapon will most likely be pulse rifles for ever, but they will have better weapons maybe given to one guy in a squad or on one ship or tank. They seem more advanced now because pulse rifles and railguns are basically the height of their tech and can be given to every unit. As in their basic equipment is better than IOM but the IOM still have much better tech just not on every single soldier

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Kan, you really crack me up sometimes man!

Diverting some air assets isn't a big deal when you are dominating the air war.

DGC and Taros saw the IoM putting forth nothing more than pitiful attempts at maintaining clear skies. Hell, on Dal'yth they actually had to divert orbital defense escorts just to make a push on a star port...

So a Titan rolling up, making the Tau divert a Manta and give it some air support doesn't really equate to a huge deal. What it does do is cripple enemy morale, as they watch a massive tool of propoganda get its ass handed to it by a real war machine.

By "some" I hope you mean "a lot". Hastily converting a cumbersome and ill-equipped flyer and then stripping all air support from a massive area to protect it, just so it could get to the target area, then blowing up the smallest Titan the Imperium has is a big deal for the Tau, it showed how much resources it took to deal with that single threat. So, next time, an Emperor Titan rolls up, the Tau are fethed, a single manta sin't going to cut it. Hell, an entire group of Mantas are going to cut it, they'll be blown out the sky with no hope of even denting the side armour.

But hey, you're doing the usual "Tau are the best, trollololol" thing you do every thread about the Tau. At least put some effort in, it's getting a little old now.

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Nicholas wrote:They won't simply have to guard those border planets, if they did it would be a disaster if say an ork waagh or Imperial crusade broke through and got a foothold. Not to mention many of the ships, having warp travel and all, could bypass those border planets easily.

Ya I thought of that too. If warp travel works in such a way that any planet is a border planet. The number of troops you need only grows at the rate you add new planets, so ya they would still be able to field the same level or more. Are you getting what I am saying here, or do I need to pull out the charts and graphs?

I'm saying that while they will advance in tech they will not be able to field it in every single battle. Their standard weapon will most likely be pulse rifles for ever, but they will have better weapons maybe given to one guy in a squad or on one ship or tank. They seem more advanced now because pulse rifles and railguns are basically the height of their tech and can be given to every unit. As in their basic equipment is better than IOM but the IOM still have much better tech just not on every single soldier

Ok I am confused. Because the tau do have a lot of weapons restricted, but that's less to do with cost. (only drones and pathfinders have rail rifles) The tau do put froth an effort to spread around there tech and make it so they can field it on a massive scale. A good example is the ion cannon. It started as a ship based weapon, but they made it small and fit it on a tank and then smaller again to fit on a battlesuit. The next step they will be giving them to fire warriors.

The ion cannon wasn't developed by the Tau.
It's Demiurg tech that was 'gifted' to the Tau. We won't likely see it on Fire Warriors unless some serious retconning going on because ion weaponry is overall kind of limited in its usage.

And the Tau 'have a lot of weapons restricted', because they promote a philosophy of 'every piece has its specific role in the battleplan'.

Kanluwen wrote:The ion cannon wasn't developed by the Tau.
It's Demiurg tech that was 'gifted' to the Tau. We won't likely see it on Fire Warriors unless some serious retconning going on because ion weaponry is overall kind of limited in its usage.

And the Tau 'have a lot of weapons restricted', because they promote a philosophy of 'every piece has its specific role in the battleplan'.

The tech was given to them, but they have been adapting it. Like i said. It started on star ships and now it can be put on a battle suit. Rail guns are another example. Started on ships and tanks and now they have them on pathfinders.

Bla i am getting off point. The thing I have been trying to say is this. The tau can field such high tech because the tau understand every aspect of their tech and have mastery over it. (except warp tech) They can change it make it cheaper, make it cost more, build a lot of it, build less of it. It's not because of their small size.

Kanluwen wrote:The ion cannon wasn't developed by the Tau.
It's Demiurg tech that was 'gifted' to the Tau. We won't likely see it on Fire Warriors unless some serious retconning going on because ion weaponry is overall kind of limited in its usage.

And the Tau 'have a lot of weapons restricted', because they promote a philosophy of 'every piece has its specific role in the battleplan'.

It's not serious retconning to say FW have access to special weapons. They're supposed to supress the enemy while the Crisis suits go in for the kill-being allowed burst cannons and Ion weaponry would be logical.

Yes, it is. The larger they get, the more difficult it will be to distribute, adapt, advance and tweak their tech.

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, it is. The larger they get, the more difficult it will be to distribute, adapt, advance and tweak their tech.

Why?

Why? More difficult to communicate, places of manufacture and distribution are farther apart, which makes it more difficult to maintain the same standardized technology. If one research center improves the pulse level, it will be difficult to then translate the same thing over to another center due to stupidly slow communications. They'll be in the same situation as The Imperium, with slow communications replacing religious mumbo-jumbo.

iproxtaco wrote:Why? More difficult to communicate, places of manufacture and distribution are farther apart, which makes it more difficult to maintain the same standardized technology. If one research center improves the pulse level, it will be difficult to then translate the same thing over to another center due to stupidly slow communications. They'll be in the same situation as The Imperium, with slow communications replacing religious mumbo-jumbo.

That makes sense. How much sense depends on the speed of communication, but ya that makes a lot more sense then them just not being able to make enough.

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Kan, you really crack me up sometimes man!

Diverting some air assets isn't a big deal when you are dominating the air war.

DGC and Taros saw the IoM putting forth nothing more than pitiful attempts at maintaining clear skies. Hell, on Dal'yth they actually had to divert orbital defense escorts just to make a push on a star port...

So a Titan rolling up, making the Tau divert a Manta and give it some air support doesn't really equate to a huge deal. What it does do is cripple enemy morale, as they watch a massive tool of propoganda get its ass handed to it by a real war machine.

By "some" I hope you mean "a lot". Hastily converting a cumbersome and ill-equipped flyer and then stripping all air support from a massive area to protect it, just so it could get to the target area, then blowing up the smallest Titan the Imperium has is a big deal for the Tau, it showed how much resources it took to deal with that single threat. So, next time, an Emperor Titan rolls up, the Tau are fethed, a single manta sin't going to cut it. Hell, an entire group of Mantas are going to cut it, they'll be blown out the sky with no hope of even denting the side armour.

But hey, you're doing the usual "Tau are the best, trollololol" thing you do every thread about the Tau. At least put some effort in, it's getting a little old now.

Actually, considering how slow and cumbersome an Emporer Titan is, a few of squadrons of AX10s with a load of Skyray support could take it down.
Think of it like this:
5 squadrons of Tiger Sharks are sent against an Emporer. A hail of pulse and missile fire chips away at the Void Sheilds, while their speed makes them invulnerable to their heavy weapons, and only the shoulder-mounted Hydra batteries do any damage to them, perhaps knocking out one or two each time they pass over. The Skyrays hide behind sturdy buildings, using DPs to minimise the Emporer's accuracy. After 3 passes, the void shields are down, 5 AX-10s are destroyed and the Skyrays have been mostly destroyed and are retreating. The Tiger Sharks make a final pass from the Titan's rear, and fire the railguns. A few rounds manage to penetrate the Plasma Reactor and the thing goes boom.
Of course, the titan would have plenty of IG and IN support, and the pilots would have to be incredibly skilled and lucky, but my point is if the Tau diverted enough military effort it could be taken down.
And people seem to underestimate railguns. They're useless against hordes, but a single round of our modern, less advanced railgun-that the army are going to double in size and double the amount of electricity used for a proper one-delivers 9 megajoules of energy, equivalent to one tonne hitting you in the face at 1600km/h. The Tau Railgun is probably slightly more powerful than the planned one-so somewhere in the 20-30 megajoule ballpark. With thirty of them coming at once, no concievable armour could withstand the beating.

Why don't they just nuke the thing from orbit?

nomotog wrote:Why don't they just nuke the thing from orbit?

Exactly. Putting so much faith in a single machine makes it all the more pointless when it gets blasted apart from a hundred miles away.

Tau don't do that kind of thing.

That's a very well picked example and would work. The only problem being that the example hinges on the Titan doing absolutely nothing.
People vastly over-estimate railguns, and vastly under-estimate the strength of Imperial armour, especially on a Titan, an Emperor class Titan at that.

Here's a realistic situation. Tigersharks come into range of Titans main guns. Boom, game over for most of them. The rest are picked off by flak guns and further shots from the Titan, the Void Shields take the brunt of any possible damage.

TrollPie wrote:

nomotog wrote:Why don't they just nuke the thing from orbit?

Exactly. Putting so much faith in a single machine makes it all the more pointless when it gets blasted apart from a hundred miles away.

Because the imperial navy clears the orbit and the skies before they deploy..

WMD 's are irrelevant in 40k until its too late to save the planet.
Plus the only one able to exterminate is the IoM ( and maybe some of its former members ).
Plus the ones with nearly unlimited range is also the ioM.

iproxtaco wrote:
But hey, you're doing the usual "Tau are the best, trollololol" thing you do every thread about the Tau. At least put some effort in, it's getting a little old now.

It's hard to imagine how can some people worship the race as best after they won 2 battles and barely against empire so big that none can imagine it's size... And also thinking that if one aircraft... sorry, space ship destroyed smallest Titan in existence ( again barely ) that one such can also destroy every Titan in existence is like thinking that Draigo can kill Chaos Gods themselves after killing so many of their best warriors in their own realm.

And I wondered why people hate the Tau...

Anyway back to OP, after some reading I concluded that only Tau can drive their battlesuits since their integrated systems are build for Tau, not other races ( same as if Tau were to try to use Titan - it was build to interface with Human mind ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, it is. The larger they get, the more difficult it will be to distribute, adapt, advance and tweak their tech.

Why?

Just look at pre-Warp Humanity and STC...
You get the idea...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:
Actually, considering how slow and cumbersome an Emporer Titan is, a few of squadrons of AX10s with a load of Skyray support could take it down.
Think of it like this:
5 squadrons of Tiger Sharks are sent against an Emporer. A hail of pulse and missile fire chips away at the Void Sheilds, while their speed makes them invulnerable to their heavy weapons, and only the shoulder-mounted Hydra batteries do any damage to them, perhaps knocking out one or two each time they pass over. The Skyrays hide behind sturdy buildings, using DPs to minimise the Emporer's accuracy. After 3 passes, the void shields are down, 5 AX-10s are destroyed and the Skyrays have been mostly destroyed and are retreating. The Tiger Sharks make a final pass from the Titan's rear, and fire the railguns. A few rounds manage to penetrate the Plasma Reactor and the thing goes boom.
Of course, the titan would have plenty of IG and IN support, and the pilots would have to be incredibly skilled and lucky, but my point is if the Tau diverted enough military effort it could be taken down.
And people seem to underestimate railguns. They're useless against hordes, but a single round of our modern, less advanced railgun-that the army are going to double in size and double the amount of electricity used for a proper one-delivers 9 megajoules of energy, equivalent to one tonne hitting you in the face at 1600km/h. The Tau Railgun is probably slightly more powerful than the planned one-so somewhere in the 20-30 megajoule ballpark. With thirty of them coming at once, no concievable armour could withstand the beating.

That's a good example. But there are few things:

-Every other Titan have Void Shields ( yes, the one that ships use ) and if their guns have actual strength to penetrate shields that strong than by all means they can hit it.
-Titan is 50-60m tall, witch means that he has much bigger line of sight and that = much bigger range than Tau Railgun.
-And Imperium don't send that kind of Titans alone on picnic. Titan that important would be protected by columns of Guardsman and Tanks.
-And why do you think that Titan weapons don't have big splash? They can waporize entire are ( Volcan cannon + Plasma cannons ).

Nuff said...

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The ion cannon wasn't developed by the Tau.
It's Demiurg tech that was 'gifted' to the Tau. We won't likely see it on Fire Warriors unless some serious retconning going on because ion weaponry is overall kind of limited in its usage.

And the Tau 'have a lot of weapons restricted', because they promote a philosophy of 'every piece has its specific role in the battleplan'.

The tech was given to them, but they have been adapting it. Like i said. It started on star ships and now it can be put on a battle suit. Rail guns are another example. Started on ships and tanks and now they have them on pathfinders.

Bla i am getting off point. The thing I have been trying to say is this. The tau can field such high tech because the tau understand every aspect of their tech and have mastery over it. (except warp tech) They can change it make it cheaper, make it cost more, build a lot of it, build less of it. It's not because of their small size.

They understand every aspect of their tech because of their small size, and they can distribute their best tech because of their small size. If they were the size of the IOM they would not be able to field their best equipment at a large scale. You are also suggesting they have a mastery of their tech if this was true they wouldn't need to change anything because it would be the best they could give. It is also not that simple just to make things cheaper you would have to find a huge amount of resources while using less or the same amount of them, which for an expanding empire would be impossible. The more resources they find means they need to use more resources to keep them. The better tech will be more expensive so to give it to your standard fire warrior, since the trend of resources used to resources found is directly related, you will produce less guns which means less armed firewarriors, which would be impractical. This makes it more likely they will keep pulse rifles standard weapons and add the better tech in small quantities like the IOM does now.

Nicholas wrote:They understand every aspect of their tech because of their small size, and they can distribute their best tech because of their small size. If they were the size of the IOM they would not be able to field their best equipment at a large scale.

Good point... but the Tau Empire seems to be a quite decentralized one. Each Tau Sept has manufacturing capabilities and is able to provide support to a number of less-developed worlds. When these worlds finally develop, they'll be able to supply another bunch of colonies. Their expansion plans make a lot of sense, IMHO.

The reason behind their advanced technology is purely societal. Their foes either have the blueprints for their machines in their genes, or are so old/advanced that they simply don't care. The Tau observe, try, learn and adapt.

For the record, it took eighteen centuries for us humans to learn how that "science" thing was done

And when there's hundreds of thousands, all scattered around taking months, if not years to reach the next habitable planet with communications possibly even slower? Yeah, the Tau are able to keep this method because of their small size.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:

Nicholas wrote:They understand every aspect of their tech because of their small size, and they can distribute their best tech because of their small size. If they were the size of the IOM they would not be able to field their best equipment at a large scale.

Good point... but the Tau Empire seems to be a quite decentralized one. Each Tau Sept has manufacturing capabilities and is able to provide support to a number of less-developed worlds. When these worlds finally develop, they'll be able to supply another bunch of colonies. Their expansion plans make a lot of sense, IMHO.

The reason behind their advanced technology is purely societal. Their foes either have the blueprints for their machines in their genes, or are so old/advanced that they simply don't care. The Tau observe, try, learn and adapt.

For the record, it took eighteen centuries for us humans to learn how that "science" thing was done

That's true I forgot to consider that most Tau planets are new to the greater good and don't contribute as much as they can yet. So there is a possibility that their resources will be boosted if the timeline advances. If it's enough to help mass produce their best at a large scale we don't know we'll just have to see if GW advances the timeline. Or they develop a faster way to travel

Brother Coa wrote:


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TrollPie wrote:
Actually, considering how slow and cumbersome an Emporer Titan is, a few of squadrons of AX10s with a load of Skyray support could take it down.
Think of it like this:
5 squadrons of Tiger Sharks are sent against an Emporer. A hail of pulse and missile fire chips away at the Void Sheilds, while their speed makes them invulnerable to their heavy weapons, and only the shoulder-mounted Hydra batteries do any damage to them, perhaps knocking out one or two each time they pass over. The Skyrays hide behind sturdy buildings, using DPs to minimise the Emporer's accuracy. After 3 passes, the void shields are down, 5 AX-10s are destroyed and the Skyrays have been mostly destroyed and are retreating. The Tiger Sharks make a final pass from the Titan's rear, and fire the railguns. A few rounds manage to penetrate the Plasma Reactor and the thing goes boom.
Of course, the titan would have plenty of IG and IN support, and the pilots would have to be incredibly skilled and lucky, but my point is if the Tau diverted enough military effort it could be taken down.
And people seem to underestimate railguns. They're useless against hordes, but a single round of our modern, less advanced railgun-that the army are going to double in size and double the amount of electricity used for a proper one-delivers 9 megajoules of energy, equivalent to one tonne hitting you in the face at 1600km/h. The Tau Railgun is probably slightly more powerful than the planned one-so somewhere in the 20-30 megajoule ballpark. With thirty of them coming at once, no concievable armour could withstand the beating.

That's a good example. But there are few things:

-Every other Titan have Void Shields ( yes, the one that ships use ) and if their guns have actual strength to penetrate shields that strong than by all means they can hit it.
-Titan is 50-60m tall, witch means that he has much bigger line of sight and that = much bigger range than Tau Railgun.
-And Imperium don't send that kind of Titans alone on picnic. Titan that important would be protected by columns of Guardsman and Tanks.
-And why do you think that Titan weapons don't have big splash? They can waporize entire are ( Volcan cannon + Plasma cannons ).
Nuff said...

You need to double check my post. I've already explained that the massed Skyrays+pulse fire could deplete the void shields. The Tiger Sharks would use their manouverability to evade them, rendering their more cumbersome big guns & artillery pieces useless and leaving the Hydra batteries the only useful weapon against them.
Railguns also have massive range. Plasma, being gas-like, is heavily effected by air resistance, and volcano rounds are slow and heavy. This means they are both theoretically outranged by a railgun. Besides, range isn't important when you're moving several hundred miles per hour-they would close the distance in seconds and open up with accurate close-range pulse fire to wear down the shields before opening up with the big guns.
And I've noted that the Titan would have IG support, but if they were engaged in a battle the Tau would undoubtedly bring in ground forces to distract them while the Sharks moved in for the kill. Alternatively, they could ambush it while it's on the move and the Guard are unprepared or far away.


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iproxtaco wrote:Tau don't do that kind of thing.

That's a very well picked example and would work. The only problem being that the example hinges on the Titan doing absolutely nothing.
People vastly over-estimate railguns, and vastly under-estimate the strength of Imperial armour, especially on a Titan, an Emperor class Titan at that.

Here's a realistic situation. Tigersharks come into range of Titans main guns. Boom, game over for most of them. The rest are picked off by flak guns and further shots from the Titan, the Void Shields take the brunt of any possible damage.

Titan main guns can't track something moving at several hundred miles per hour. That's what the Hydra batteries on the shoulders are for, and they're still useless against targets that are circling rapidly and are lower down than the Titan's roof.

Whell isn't that an idyllic situhation boyo.
Again, this example relies on the Titan doing nothing, and ignores several things about them that makes this inane concept of Tigershark domination pretty pointless to even discuss.
Titans won't just stand still. Their flakguns won't just shoot upwards, their main-guns aren't exclusively for extreme range. Their armour is a lot stronger than you seem to think, their void shields are capable of protecting them from the hits of other Titan weapons. They have more than just flak-guns on the top, they have a variety of close-range protection weapons, and a whole lot of ground support, which includes such things as, more Hydra flak installments.
Coupled with the fact that a Tigershark requires it to be heading straight on to hit with its railguns, does not travel in stupidly small small arcs close to a void-shield enabled Titan sized object at hundreds of miles an hour at such low altitudes, and is also very lightly armoured, yeah, I'd say a Warmonger Emperor Class Titan has a significant advantage over several dozen Tigersharks.

The best part of this thread is hearing Imperial fans talk about how bad is better! Love that!

As for the immense damage control dealing with Titans being blown up, lets keep in mind that it was the smallest Titan, but lets also remember the tactics have changed since then. When the Tau first saw a Titan they were omg wtf is that?! They used some overkill as any intelligent dude would. The next few bouts saw them playing a similiar game but with different tactics. Tiger Sharks and Mantas working together is way more practical a means of wiping out Titans should they pop up.

As for the Railgun vs Imperial Armor debate! Pretty sure we already saw how that ends, with a golf ball sized hole and your crew sucked out into a pink mist few meters past the wreck. Not sure how on earth people keep ignoring the fact that the Tau have beaten the Imperials at the offset of pretty much all major conflicts and lost one notable conflict only after winning the initial battle (nimbosa) WHICH was only one of several wars in a spearhead expansion!

Too much Tau hate...

So far these forums have informed me...

-Dal'yth Prime was the ENTIRE Tau military fighting a SMALL crusade (wasnt really a crusade apparently). According to the same fanboys, thats 1 million FWs.
-Treads are better on tanks because moving fast is bad.
-Having bad tank crews is better because when they die you can replace them faster.
-Pulse Rifles are bad because bolters can be equipped with rare ammo that is better at certain jobs.
-Battlesuits are bad because they aren't terminators?
-A Tau manta fighting an Imperial Titan with flier escorts as the Titan calls upon its Hydra support is apparently bad for the Tau. If they by chance win the fight, they only killed a sentinal, wasnt a real Titan apparently.

Did I miss anything?

The views of certain members of Dakka do not reflect the views of every member of Dakka. I know those things Dakka has informed you of are wrong, but they aren't entirely off the mark, and if this thread is anything to go by, you're a raving fanboi or a troll, or both, if the former is true, then you're pretty much ignoring a lot of the arguments against you.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The best part of this thread is hearing Imperial fans talk about how bad is better! Love that!

wasn't intended to make trolls happy

BeefCakeSoup wrote:As for the immense damage control dealing with Titans being blown up, lets keep in mind that it was the smallest Titan, but lets also remember the tactics have changed since then. When the Tau first saw a Titan they were omg wtf is that?! They used some overkill as any intelligent dude would. The next few bouts saw them playing a similiar game but with different tactics. Tiger Sharks and Mantas working together is way more practical a means of wiping out Titans should they pop up.

wrong as usual.

remember this is 40k background, not dakka fiction.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:As for the Railgun vs Imperial Armor debate! Pretty sure we already saw how that ends, with a golf ball sized hole and your crew sucked out into a pink mist few meters past the wreck. Not sure how on earth people keep ignoring the fact that the Tau have beaten the Imperials at the offset of pretty much all major conflicts and lost one notable conflict only after winning the initial battle (nimbosa) WHICH was only one of several wars in a spearhead expansion!

something that isn't found worthy to be looted by orks ?
again, correct quotes get you far, your altered fluff is just trolling.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Too much Tau hate...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:So far these forums have informed me...

-Dal'yth Prime was the ENTIRE Tau military fighting a SMALL crusade (wasnt really a crusade apparently). According to the same fanboys, thats 1 million FWs.
-Treads are better on tanks because moving fast is bad.
-Having bad tank crews is better because when they die you can replace them faster.
-Pulse Rifles are bad because bolters can be equipped with rare ammo that is better at certain jobs.
-Battlesuits are bad because they aren't terminators?
-A Tau manta fighting an Imperial Titan with flier escorts as the Titan calls upon its Hydra support is apparently bad for the Tau. If they by chance win the fight, they only killed a sentinal, wasnt a real Titan apparently.

Did I miss anything?

yes. the subject of the thread.

iproxtaco wrote:Whell isn't that an idyllic situhation boyo.
Again, this example relies on the Titan doing nothing, and ignores several things about them that makes this inane concept of Tigershark domination pretty pointless to even discuss.
Titans won't just stand still. Their flakguns won't just shoot upwards, their main-guns aren't exclusively for extreme range. Their armour is a lot stronger than you seem to think, their void shields are capable of protecting them from the hits of other Titan weapons. They have more than just flak-guns on the top, they have a variety of close-range protection weapons, and a whole lot of ground support, which includes such things as, more Hydra flak installments.
Coupled with the fact that a Tigershark requires it to be heading straight on to hit with its railguns, does not travel in stupidly small small arcs close to a void-shield enabled Titan sized object at hundreds of miles an hour at such low altitudes, and is also very lightly armoured, yeah, I'd say a Warmonger Emperor Class Titan has a significant advantage over several dozen Tigersharks.

Perfect example of blind fanboyism.

SEVERAL

DOZEN

ANTI-TITAN

AIRCRAFT!


So can you please explain to me how the Titan is going to perform against fast flying aircraft dumping hundreds of Railgun shots into it? Very interested in hearing this.

As a troll ofcourse...

Please remember this won't be an even fight, as the Tigersharks are supposedly at a disadvantage!

Wow man... no point.

You eh, kinda quoted the reasons as to why that is the case, you know, in that post.
I wouldn't accuse anyone of fanboyism if I were you, that might be a tad hypocritical.


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Anyway, this is very close to being locked, like every thread that degrades the Tau.

About the, say, 15 Tiger Sharks vs an Emporer Titan...
Titans can move. I know. But a behemoth of a machine weighing thousands of tonnes isn't the speediest little bugger. To say it could dodge an enemy flyer is a tad silly. To say it's main guns, weighing in at dozens of tonnes each and supported by incredibly thick arms, could track something that fast also doesn't work. While it has a plethora of weapons on it's back, only the Hydra emplacements have good accuracy versus the Sharks. Things like Quake cannons, volcano cannons and Plasma destructors versus a flyer is like trying to hit a wasp with a rocket launcher. Things like heavy bolters is like trying to hit a wasp with an electric BB gun. The manouverability and speed makes the heaviest weapons all but useless, and the lighter weapons are still shaky at best. If a few dozen AX-10s, with Skyray support, were to attack a lone Emporer titan, with a bit of luck they could take it down. I'm not saying that in an apocalyptic battle they would destroy it, I'm simply saying if they could force the Titan in to the ideal situation they could get it.

Basically, Emporer Titans aren't the instant win buttons people think they are. They have massive firepower, but it comes with severe downsides, and are only designed for use in massive-scale battles. Against a smaller force, they can be outmanouvered and stopped; think a marine fighting a swarm of bees. He can swat a few, but he can't escape them all.

Well I learned that Dakka is often full of people who see their faction as the toughest one around. I am an Imperial fan myself, but I admit that Imperium is not capable to defeat all of it's enemies. But again neither are they able to defeat Imperium. So it is a big tie in fact, just what GW wanted.

The things I learned from dedicated Tau fans ( these are their claims ):

-Tau Air Caste have MORE ships than entire Imperial Navy.
-Tau Fire Caste has MORE Fire Warriors than Imperium has Guardsman.
-Space Marines can be beat by Fire Warriors at melee. And in range Tau can kill Marines with bondage over their eyes.
-Tau can in fact conquer the galaxy with ease, they just can't remember to start conquering.
-Tau population is in fact bigger than Imperium's. No matter if they have a little over 100 planets.
-Tau can in fact kill all 4 Chaos Gods, in Warp. They just need to get to Eye of Terror.
-Tau tech is so awesome that even Eldar and Necrons are jealous.

I am sure there is more to this, but I can't remember...
Now it is our turn to troll....in fact it isn't - this is just the reality in 40k:



And, unlike the Tau we have secret weapon: Matt Ward...
Just all wait until Angry Black Templars with dual power-swords, 10.000 strong Marines, anti-plasma power-armor with shields and shouting the name of Guiliman come out

I have a feeling Brother Coa doesn't like Tau.
I also have a feeling those "examples" are him purposefully misinterpreting random statements.

TrollPie wrote:I have a feeling Brother Coa doesn't like Tau.
I also have a feeling those "examples" are him purposefully misinterpreting random statements.

I do like Tau, just hate Tau fans - they are the main reason people dislike them.
And you are arguing this whole page about Titan, that has nothing to do with OP.
Who is now "purposefully misinterpreting random statements."?

TrollPie wrote:About the, say, 15 Tiger Sharks vs an Emporer Titan...
Titans can move. I know. But a behemoth of a machine weighing thousands of tonnes isn't the speediest little bugger. To say it could run away from an enemy flyer is a tad silly. To say it's main guns, waying an at a dozen tonnes each and supported by incredibly thick arms, could track something that fast also doesn't work. While it has a plethora of weapons on it's back, only the Hydra emplacements have good accuracy versus the Sharks. Things like Quake cannons, volcano cannons and Plasma destructors versus a flyer is like trying to hit a wasp with a rocket launcher. Things like heavy bolters is like trying to hit a wasp with an electric BB gun. The manouverability and speed makes the heaviest weapons all but useless, and the lighter weapons are still shaky at best. If a few dozen AX-10s, with Skyray support, were to attack a lone Emporertitan, with a bit of luck they could take it down. I'm not saying that in an apocalyptic battle they would destroy it, I'm simply saying if they could force the Titan in to the ideal situation they could get it.

I agree, in an ideal situation the Tau are more than capable of taking down an Emperor Titan, but that's in an ideal situation.
I'm not saying it could run away, I'm saying that it won't be a stationary target, not that it will evade or anything like that, but the theory that the Tigersharks will be traveling so fast so close at such a low altitude is silly at best when you consider that a Titan will travel quite fast due to it's stupidly large distance steps.
I also think the analogy of rocket launcher/bb gun trying to hit a wasp is a tad of an over-exaggeration. Considering that the tigersharks wont be travelling at hundreds of miles an hour, and the guns will be tracking them from large distances, or at very close ranges. The Wargmonger has advanced targeting systems, I would reckon that both shoulder mounted and ground hydra emplacements, coupled with probably twin linked heavy bolters or autocannons and the stupidly high powered main guns, like the Gatling Blaster or Hellstorm Cannon would be weapons enough to ensure several destroyed Tigersharks.
Keep in mind that his is the Imperiums greatest weapons, able to devastate entire cites with a few salvos. Warhounds and Reavers would be fairly equivalent targets to a tigershark squadron.


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BeefCakeSoup is the one who is "purposefully misinterpreting random statements.", I agree completely. Taking statements which are actually true, and then blowing them out of proportion to back an already flawed point.

When is an Emperor class titan ever alone?
They are supported by not only the rest of the legion present but also the Imperial Guard, Skitarii and the Imperial Navy.
In a vacuum they probably could deal with an Emperor class titan but i doubt the Imperium is just gonna give them that chance.
Though sillier things have happened...

That's more like it.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The best part of this thread is hearing Imperial fans talk about how bad is better! Love that!


As for the Railgun vs Imperial Armor debate! Pretty sure we already saw how that ends, with a golf ball sized hole and your crew sucked out into a pink mist few meters past the wreck. Not sure how on earth people keep ignoring the fact that the Tau have beaten the Imperials at the offset of pretty much all major conflicts and lost one notable conflict only after winning the initial battle (nimbosa) WHICH was only one of several wars in a spearhead expansion!

Nobody said bad they said simple. A simple and effective weapon is better than a complex and effective weapon economically even if the complex weapon is slightly better. A railgun is also one of the tau's best tech so it has to be compared to the IOM say a vortex missile. Railguns are also harder to maintain and more expensive to make than a Leman Russ which is almost as efficient and simpler to make. From what I've read you have misinterpreted everything anyone has said on this thread

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, it is. The larger they get, the more difficult it will be to distribute, adapt, advance and tweak their tech.

Yes. We've seen already IRL how difficult it is for a large nation like the USA, Japan or China to innovate and adopt new technologies. They lag far behind smaller, nimbler countries such as Burkhina Fasso.

Oh yeah, because China is similar in size to an interstellar empire numbering around a hundred planets. It's a stupidly flawed comparison.

Take The Imperium. Aside from the religious mumbo-jumbo, each technology is difficult to distribute, due to the extreme size. The Tau will have the same problem, and it will be worse, due to inferior FTL and communications.


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And is Japan considered a country in league with China and the USA in terms of size? That's funny. Japan has a significant advantage, the same as the Tau. Huh, another similarity the Tau have with that island nation.

I am already seeing that this thread will be closed soon...


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Kilkrazy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, it is. The larger they get, the more difficult it will be to distribute, adapt, advance and tweak their tech.

Yes. We've seen already IRL how difficult it is for a large nation like the USA, Japan or China to innovate and adopt new technologies. They lag far behind smaller, nimbler countries such as Burkhina Fasso.

With all due respect you can't compare today's nation states with galactic empires. There are just to many differences ( take just resources of 1 nation and resources of the entire planet ).

Why dose it always come back to the titan? Sure the tau killed one with a single shot (ya ya I know the extra bit), but the orks killed one with a bloody rocket car, so I think they win.

If by "single shot" you mean "single barrage of twin-linked rail guns", sure.

It's not like "Oh one railgun shot killed a Warhound Titan".

Kanluwen wrote:If by "single shot" you mean "single barrage of twin-linked rail guns", sure.

It's not like "Oh one railgun shot killed a Warhound Titan".

No I mean one angry ork killed a warhound titan. And he was on fire well he did it.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:If by "single shot" you mean "single barrage of twin-linked rail guns", sure.

It's not like "Oh one railgun shot killed a Warhound Titan".

No I mean one angry ork killed a warhound titan. And he was on fire well he did it.

I was replying to your statement of the Tau killing a Titan in one shot.

They didn't. It was a barrage of railgun shots. Technicality, sure--but still.

Kanluwen wrote:It's not like "Oh one railgun shot killed a Warhound Titan".

Is it even stated how much damage was done to the Titan itself? All I remember is that it fell over and the other Titans retreated. The Princeps (Princep?) may have died from the shock, but the Titan itself seems like it was left relatively intact and easy to repair.


The Ork example is just ridiculous, however. But that's what the Orks are all about.

The Ork codex, period, has a few really over the top pieces of fluff that make Draigo look tame--but are generally forgiven because hey, Orks are all about over the top.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's not like "Oh one railgun shot killed a Warhound Titan".

Is it even stated how much damage was done to the Titan itself? All I remember is that it fell over and the other Titans retreated. The Princeps (Princep?) may have died from the shock, but the Titan itself seems like it was left relatively intact and easy to repair.


The Ork example is just ridiculous, however. But that's what the Orks are all about.

Maybe it just fainted... >.>; Or maybe (stay with me here) the tau loaded up a pair of space ship sized rail guns and blew it's crew out of a nickle sized hole. You know, one or the other.. *shrug*

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah, because China is similar in size to an interstellar empire numbering around a hundred planets. It's a stupidly flawed comparison.

Take The Imperium. Aside from the religious mumbo-jumbo, each technology is difficult to distribute, due to the extreme size. The Tau will have the same problem, and it will be worse, due to inferior FTL and communications.


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And is Japan considered a country in league with China and the USA in terms of size? That's funny. Japan has a significant advantage, the same as the Tau. Huh, another similarity the Tau have with that island nation.

What you are saying about the dissemination of knowledge is wrong and modern examples disprove it. It's nothing to do with size or some un-defined "difficulty". It's to do with the ability of a nation to assimilate, invent and bootstrap new technologies. That isn't based on size, it's based on education level, wealth, the rule of law and other social factors.



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Anyway, this thread has become completely off topic.

The original question has been answered.

Locking thread.